Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Flip-Flopping: As American as Apple Pie

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2009-10-08T08:08:52.822-04:00

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Do pledged Obama delegates have the obligation to ...

2008-07-07T00:32:00.000-04:00

Do pledged Obama delegates have the obligation to switch votes at the convention if they feel that he no longer represents the sentiments of those that elected him?

The DNC rules not only allow it, they encourage it:

http://www.pledgednotbound.com/

Obama all CHANGE all the time: CHANGE ... what you...

2008-07-04T18:41:00.000-04:00

Obama all CHANGE all the time:

CHANGE ... what you'll have left after I raise taxes.
CHANGE ... your gas prices upwards, but gradually
CHANGE ... my hat size because every day my head gets bigger
CHANGE ... the national motto to: In Obama We Trust.
CHANGE ... what I do to my story depending upon whom I'm talking to.
CHANGE ... what I do every day to my foreign policy
CHANGE ... what I do to my trade policy depending upon whom I'm talking to
CHANGE ... your lifestyle because the rest of the world doesn't like you
CHANGE ... my friends when they turn out NOT to be "The person I knew"
CHANGE ... what my radical left-wing ideologue handlers have in store for you
CHANGE ... what I do to facts to suit my needs.
CHANGE ... my previous position in favor of gun control was 'inartful language'
CHANGE ... my pastor's screed is OK, yours isn't
CHANGE ... FISA line that we crossed but I have now moved back
CHANGE ... from public to private campaign financing because I can raise more money
CHANGE ... I'll debate John McCain anytime, anywhere; except when and where he asks me.
CHANGE ... the words of others and claim they're mine, because words count.
CHANGE ... the meaning of Bible verses to meet my own liberal world view
CHANGE ... more of you into victims of something and build government programs to take care of you
CHANGE ... you into a ward of the state so that I OWN you and your vote
CHANGE ... your mind and believe in me for I am the Obamessiah come to save you
CHANGE ... into giggling sycophants; liberal mainstream media do under the spell of the Obamessiah
CHANGE ... the chant I use to control the weak-minded Obamanized masses
CHANGE ... into an Obamatron; join the cult, repeat the chant: CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE ...
CHANGE ... what I plan to do to America because it's the greatest country on the planet.
CHANGE ... the national anthems of all the nations of the world to Kumbaya using my messianic foreign policy skills
CHANGE ... into mumble-mouthed idiot when I don't have prepared speech to read.
CHANGE ... historical facts to agree with my life story
CHANGE ... I said the DC gun ban was constitutional, but now I agree with Supreme Court ruling it unconstitutional.
CHANGE ... what I said because my rhetoric was 'overheated and amplified'
CHANGE ... I mocked Hillary during the primary, now she “rocks”.
CHANGE ... I respect McCain's service to his nation, so I sent Wesley “looser” Clark out to demean him
CHANGE ... but not for us, not the left-wing liberal elite, CHANGE is for YOU.
CHANGE ... the mortgage industry is a bunch of crooks; but I got my deal
CHANGE ... I was against welfare reform until Congress passed the Welfare Reform Act, then I “invented” it in Illinois
CHANGE ... I didn't vote to censure MoveOn.org for the “General Betray Us” ad, but now that I need some Independent votes, I'll issue a rebuke.
CHANGE ... I didn't wear an American flag pin because it was substitute for true patriotism, but I do now.
CHANGE ... when I'm president, I'll immediately bring the troops home ...
CAHNGE ... I want to bring the bring the troops home by March of 2008 ...
CHANGE ... I'll bring the troops home in sixteen months ...
CHANGE ... I'll begin to withdraw troops immediately, a division or two per month ...
CHANGE ... unless I “refine” my policies.
CHANGE ... anything and everything I've said or done in my life if it will help me win
CHANGE ... the definition of change to: What I say, when I say it, to whom I say it.
CHANGE ... I can CHANGE when it suits me
CHANGE ... you can believe in ... for a day or two
CHANGE ... you can't keep up with
CHANGE ... you can see through

CHANGE ... your underwear because you'll defecate in your pants when you wake up to find out what the left-wing liberal ideologues have done after gaining complete control of government.
CHANGE ... YOU better freaking BELIEVE IN because it will WORK YOU over.

Obama: the AUDACITY to count on you and I being DOPEs

sylphhead -Wingnut, I realize you picked that name...

2008-07-04T16:17:00.000-04:00

sylphhead -

Wingnut, I realize you picked that name for a one-time barb, but I gotta dare ya to keep it. You can say it's making a statement, and the rest of us can say it's making an accurate description.

Keeping the level of discussion consistently high, are we? Considering the single post I made merely quoted you, who is the wingnut?

Isn't there a significant possibility that the fli...

2008-07-04T13:38:00.000-04:00

Isn't there a significant possibility that the flip-flopping charges on all sides will hurt both major party candidates? There are at least four options in this election.

Why hasn't anyone commented on the fact that a recent CNN poll showed the Obama 5% lead shrinking to 3 points when the two third party candidates are included? There was discussion in an older thread that Nader might be helping the Democrat this time around but the 6% CNN recorded for Nader suggests otherwise. Could this suggest that BHOs seeming movement to the center might cost him with idealistic left-leaning voters and that the same thing might happen to McCain?

Is there some way to project the likely decline or gain in support for Barr and Nader as the election approaches? This seems to be a better approach than simply ignoring them for the two-man race. And, shouldn't you be looking at states other than Georgia for likely third-party impacts?

Karen,There is a dispute about the Kerry/McCain li...

2008-07-04T13:15:00.000-04:00

Karen,

There is a dispute about the Kerry/McCain link in 2004, with Kerry saying he was approached by McCain's staff, and McCain claiming Kerry's staff approached him. There is no way to judge the credibility of either camp's assertions.

In either event, while this story makes for a good sound bite, it was never realistic, given the philosophical differences between Kerry and McCain.

Either way, I do not see how this dispute from 2004 validates which candidate is a "flip-flopper."

Either you're copying the Plank, or the Plank is c...

2008-07-04T13:06:00.000-04:00

Either you're copying the Plank, or the Plank is copying you Nate...

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/07/03/flip-flops-as-american-as-apple-pie.aspx

While all you left wing liberals out there lambast...

2008-07-04T11:33:00.000-04:00

While all you left wing liberals out there lambast John McCain and his "flip-flopping," I can only sit back and wonder why no one seems to remember that John Kerry actually asked McCain to be his vice-presidential nominee four years ago! McCain certainly wasn't seen as Bush's third term guy back then. So who is the real "flip-flopper?"

Sorry - that should read 'FISA' in the last commen...

2008-07-04T05:54:00.000-04:00

Sorry - that should read 'FISA' in the last comment!

I'm pretty new to this site so this may be a bit p...

2008-07-04T05:52:00.000-04:00

I'm pretty new to this site so this may be a bit presumptuous, but I agree with the earlier suggestions that 'Anonymous' tags should be got rid of on comments. Not that 'Ken' or 'Andy' or 'PX34523' are any less anonymous but at least you could track who is saying what in a discussion. One of the other threads seems to have five different people using the 'Anonymous' tag (as far as I can tell from the tenor of their comments, political inclinations and command of spelling and grammar).

On the flip-flopping, I think the two pretty much cancel each other out. McCain got a lot of his over with earlier on when he needed to pander to the Christian Right and Republican fundraisers. Obama had to wait until now when he is appealing to the general electorate and not just the Democratic base. It is a bit disconcerting, all the same, so see how quickly he is moving on issues such as gun control, death penalty, FOSA and so on. Not that it will bother his hard-core supporters - heck, he could turn up in a 'Nuke Iran Now' t-shirt and I swear it wouldn't even make them blink!

Wingnut, I realize you picked that name for a one-...

2008-07-04T02:10:00.000-04:00

Wingnut, I realize you picked that name for a one-time barb, but I gotta dare ya to keep it. You can say it's making a statement, and the rest of us can say it's making an accurate description.

"A brief respite from the Wonk-fest going on here and a little discussion about polls: I'm not sure that anything Kerry could have done would have pulled him into the race. At the end of the Day, Bush had a 55% approval rating -- the same as Reagans -- and, although he didn't fare quite as well, he had the election in the bag pretty much the entire season. Perhaps this is what we can learn from fundamentals: they're hard to run against no matter how good/bad your candidate is."

I agree that the fundamentals matter more than people think. I read that by far the majority of voters in 2004 decided on their vote months before the election, though unfortunately I don't have a cite handy.

But I disagree that the 2004 election was always in the bag for Bush. 2004 was, historically, a very close election. The Dems made a lot of mistakes. Let's hope they aren't repeated.

1) All this talk about flip-flopping is not releva...

2008-07-04T01:25:00.000-04:00

1) All this talk about flip-flopping is not relevant in this election. It was a big deal in 2004 because Kerry really was a major flip-flopper, whereas neither is in this election. (As an aside, so was Mitt Romney: what the heck is wrong with you Bostonians?)

2) Nate, please start deleting flames, or at least, flame-only posts.

A brief respite from the Wonk-fest going on here a...

2008-07-04T01:23:00.000-04:00

A brief respite from the Wonk-fest going on here and a little discussion about polls: I'm not sure that anything Kerry could have done would have pulled him into the race. At the end of the Day, Bush had a 55% approval rating -- the same as Reagans -- and, although he didn't fare quite as well, he had the election in the bag pretty much the entire season. Perhaps this is what we can learn from fundamentals: they're hard to run against no matter how good/bad your candidate is.

sylphhead -"Wingnut X is a sophomoric debater brim...

2008-07-04T00:43:00.000-04:00

sylphhead -

"Wingnut X is a sophomoric debater brimming with ineloquent bitterness, probably stemming from deep-seated sexual inadequacy. Let us click our tongues at him."

Re-read your post and then tell yourself the above quote doesn't apply to you until you believe it.

"I had not previously believed the conventional cr...

2008-07-04T00:36:00.000-04:00

"I had not previously believed the conventional criticism of Obama supporters (cult of personality devoted kool-aid drinkers with a messianic view the candidate) but this sort of reaction is making me rethink - maybe there is something to the stereotype -"

Edited for clarity:

"You must agree with my Position , held by me, Wingnut X, or else is raises suspicicions that you are [read:I will name-call you] Childishly Insulting Term Y."

Wingnut X's imagined response:

"We must admit defeat to Wingnut X! Otherwise we're Insulting Term Y! Oh N03$SSS!!!111!1!"

Real response:

"Wingnut X is a sophomoric debater brimming with ineloquent bitterness, probably stemming from deep-seated sexual inadequacy. Let us click our tongues at him."

The anonymous posters have been responsible for mo...

2008-07-04T00:25:00.000-04:00

The anonymous posters have been responsible for most of the vitriol spewed in the past few weeks.

I find the anonymous posts to be the only thing keeping this site from turning into an Obama cult. If you want this site to be a respected statistical site with analytical discussion, then the first thing to do is make it completely non-partisan. The second is to stop posting opinion pieces such as why Obama is not a flip-flopper. Stick to non-partisan statistical analysis of interesting political issues - not making statistical arguments just to back up Obama talking points or refute McCain/Hillary talking points. You are attracting flies by setting out the honey.

* In February 2008, McCain reversed course on proh...

2008-07-03T22:47:00.000-04:00

* In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.

Hey, that's not fair. McCain has a very nuanced, centrist view of torture: it should be done by the CIA, not the military. That's not a flip-flop, that's pragmatism.

Jeez, you guys! First, you don't like flip-flops.....

2008-07-03T20:47:00.000-04:00

Jeez, you guys! First, you don't like flip-flops... then you do? Make up your mind, please!

Anytime you are for the immediate withdrawal of tr...

2008-07-03T20:17:00.000-04:00

Anytime you are for the immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq, but are now against the withdrawal

Such a transparent lie. Obama was never for immediate withdrawal, and is not now against withdrawal.

Some of the lies are more subtle and require something more than the abject ignorance of most Americans to understand why they are lies, but they are all lies.

Anytime you are against the death penalty but are ...

2008-07-03T20:15:00.000-04:00

Anytime you are against the death penalty but are now for the death penalty

Obama has always been for the death penalty in limited circumstances -- he's written about this in his books; this, like the other claims, is simply a lie.

Beyond that, Obama, a constitutional scholar, made a legal argument, one that I, who am totally opposed to the death penalty, agree with -- there is no distinction between different kinds of crimes (other than treason) in the Constitution. The court decision was wrong; the burden of banning the death penalty in any or all categories falls on the legislature, not the court. But far too many Americans, regardless of political ideology, have no concept of the rule of law, and favor or disfavor judicial decisions solely based on whether they favor or disfavor the consequences, which is just plain wrong.