Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Carbon Offsets: Better than Critics Think?

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2009-10-10T08:11:03.691-04:00

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Don't pay for carbon offsets, get them for free: ...

2009-06-04T09:56:45.176-04:00

Don't pay for carbon offsets, get them for free:

freecarbonoffsets.com

.

I think a lot of the outrage about carbon offsets ...

2009-06-02T13:27:44.310-04:00

I think a lot of the outrage about carbon offsets belies the way the proscriptions for environmental health from many environmentalists are tangled up with their conception of personal ethics and responsibility.

In theory, Carbon Offsets should work fine. They create an industry that destroys carbon, rather than creates it.

I thought the points made by other commenters W/R/T corruption were good though. Practically, we'll need a reliable system for enforcement of sequestration contacts, if we want offsets to work.

In Europe, they are building net carbon negative h...

2009-06-02T10:59:53.066-04:00

In Europe, they are building net carbon negative housing with locally produced lime and hemp. We should do that here! (Note, it is currently a federal offense to do so, damn hippies!)

"Paying someone else to lose weight does nothing t...

2009-06-01T19:46:55.274-04:00

"Paying someone else to lose weight does nothing to improve an obese person’s health."

However, if implemented correctly, it would do a lot to improve the health of the people being paid.

I was under the impression Gore bought a historic,...

2009-06-01T11:43:15.333-04:00

I was under the impression Gore bought a historic, plantation-type home, not built new...I know this is a side-note to the general conversation, but wouldn't his investment in making the home more efficient make an overall positive impact by reducing the carbon footprint of an existing property?

Natch, not to slap you down or anything, but I wou...

2009-06-01T11:03:59.194-04:00

Natch, not to slap you down or anything, but I would hardly call that an in depth discussion of the air conditioner analogy. Also I might be more likely to visit your campaign site if I knew that your platform was there, rather than having it suggested that it might be there! (People do misuse the word 'can' a lot, but there is no need to off set that by misusing the word 'may'.)

On the wider issue, you seem to have a problem with how carbon offsets are run rather than the actual process, which personally I think is a fair enough process. Personally I think the federal government should set up an offset system, to take the fraud and mistrust out of the system. I guess that wouldn't be terribly popular in the American system, but I think that there needs to be a level of transparency and openness about offsetting.

I've responded to this post with one of my own. I...

2009-06-01T08:29:52.659-04:00

I've responded to this post with one of my own. I point out that carbon offsets are generally ineffective and discuss, in depth, the air conditioner analogy

I think the problem with carbon off sets is that t...

2009-06-01T04:47:35.208-04:00

I think the problem with carbon off sets is that they seem like an excuse for rich people to do what they want whilst insisting the rest of us show restraint. Personally I would support a scheme that mandated polluting industries, such as the airline industry or the coal industry, to offset there carbon footprints.

On the wider point of why the western world should act without the emerging economies acting as well, it seems to me like this actually an opportunity. The emerging economies often have based there growth on old technology. If the western economies bit the bullet and upgraded in more efficient ways, the would produce both a better and less polluting economy. Look at the American car industry. Everyone else in the world has been looking for more efficiency. The Americans have been crossing their fingers and hoping. Toyota, Honda and Nissan have all grown globally whilst sticking to Japan's far far tougher fuel standards, in the meantime GM for instance has fallen behind. It's not tough to figure a way forward really. Yet I don't know, pig headedness or arrogance keeps the US auto industry from doing much.

justsomeguy said... Evolution is not a continuous...

2009-06-01T01:17:11.333-04:00

justsomeguy said...

Evolution is not a continuous slow process, particularly for a top dog species like us. Evolution is not happening for humans, as there is no consistent long term selective pressure or short term punctuated equilibrium. As a species we are doomed, but in the end that is good for the planet.Actually we are in a period of fast human evolution, unlike anything previously seen in our history. The selective pressures are too numerous to name completely, but include agriculture, alcohol, drugs, cities, cars, the internet, and disease (SARS and swine flu may turn out to be insignificant, but the 1918 flu killed between 20 and 50 million people - and what about AIDS and the black death?).

While there is certainly a chance that we may be doomed as a species, there is also a chance that some people now alive will continue to live (in some form or another) until the end of the universe (if not past that).

As to being good for the planet, I doubt that anybody other than us much care one way or the other.

Obesity is an inaccurate metaphor for carbon offse...

2009-06-01T00:31:47.233-04:00

Obesity is an inaccurate metaphor for carbon offsets, IMO. It's more like the church giving indulgences - ostensibly the effort/money contributed by those in the wrong is supposed to have some positive effect eventually.

This is essentially a flawed article b/c it discus...

2009-06-01T00:24:39.827-04:00

This is essentially a flawed article b/c it discusses offsets in terms of offsetting real carbon emissions. In reality, carbon offsets don't necessarily mean that one is offsetting real emissions. For example, one could buy carbon offsets in the form of purchasing acres of rainforest. By buying this rainforest, you may be ensuring that it will keep sequestering carbon in the future but you aren't actually eliminating any real carbon emissions in the present. In this way, a country could buy rainforest indefinitely as part of a carbon offset program without ever eliminating carbon emissions.

To dramatize its claim that offsets are a moral tr...

2009-05-31T23:37:01.936-04:00

To dramatize its claim that offsets are a moral travesty, one group has even created a web site that promotes the opportunity to enjoy guilt-free extramarital affairs by paying third parties not to commit infidelities they otherwise would have.

**************

I think that offsets are useless and (mostly) harmless, but I can't see the justification for hyperbole like the above quote.

There's no evidence that the people that produced cheatneutral.com want "to dramatize [their] claim that offsets are a moral travesty", or that they are a climate action protest group. I'd imagine that they created the site because IT'S FUNNY!

*resists telling somewhat off-colour economist joke here*

Mr. Frank, Every one of the three or four commerc...

2009-05-31T22:11:00.841-04:00

Mr. Frank,

Every one of the three or four commercial offers of 'carbon offsets' I have looked into have been a scam, in the sense that the companies buy clean energy to resell to me *that is already on the market*.

If you read the small print of a company like terrapass for instance, they will admit that they define clean electricity as that produced from wind, solar, hydro, or nuclear. Since about 12% of the US energy mix is already from those sources, that company has been collecting fees from it's customers since day #1 without decreasing carbon emissions one gram.

These companies promise is to 'virtually' supply the customer with clean energy, not to produce it.

OT Tomorrow is the day that Coleman and Franken's...

2009-05-31T18:27:16.130-04:00

OT

Tomorrow is the day that Coleman and Franken's lawyers make their oral arguments before the Minnesota Supremes!

Hopefully,there will be a quick decision (the Supremes have had the written arguments and rebuttals for a few weeks) which would include a directive to Pawlenty to sign the certification.

THERE WILL BE LIVE VIDEO COVERAGE AT 9:00AM (CT) AT:

http://theuptake.org/

juvanya said... Instead of buying voodoo carbon of...

2009-05-31T18:13:54.473-04:00

juvanya said...
Instead of buying voodoo carbon offsets, you could just plant a bunch of trees in your yard.

What suburb do you live in, idiot? Or do you live in a rural setting, well outside some metropolitan area?

For your information, some of us live in cities, where we live in houses with very small yards, or have no yards at all.

For instance, the front of my house directly abuts the public sidewalk; the back yard is 16 feet wide, and less than 70 feet in length, with electrical and telephone lines and other cables strung across my property. There is no area where I can plant a tree.

And then some people live in apartments, condos, and/or co-ops, who have no yard at all.

So take your suburban/rural, know-it-all, attitude and stuff it if you can't even think of people in other situations.

And in addition, I totally agree with the opinions expressed by Opus (at 5:30 PM) and Juris (at 5:58 PM).

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

This story is distracting the public from the seri...

2009-05-31T17:59:41.183-04:00

This story is distracting the public from the serious nature of the issue at hand.

Your grandchildren now look to commonly experience extreme temperatures like what happened in Australia a few months ago, and to see 40% less animals.... soon to be extinct animals.

Wake up !
The quality of life for all humans and all other flora and fauna is seriously threatened.

@Opus 132: I find it totally offensive. Shame on ...

2009-05-31T17:58:18.000-04:00

@Opus 132: I find it totally offensive. Shame on you, juvanya.

I know they take money in Israel to plant trees th...

2009-05-31T17:30:54.621-04:00

I know they take money in Israel to plant trees there. If you don't want to support Jews, there's certainly other programs out there.

Does anybody else find this totally offensive?

Opus- Evolution is not a continuous slow process,...

2009-05-31T17:22:00.537-04:00

Opus-

Evolution is not a continuous slow process, particularly for a top dog species like us. Evolution is not happening for humans, as there is no consistent long term selective pressure or short term punctuated equilibrium. As a species we are doomed, but in the end that is good for the planet.

Relax, party on.

Then again, we humans richly deserve everything co...

2009-05-31T17:12:43.241-04:00

Then again, we humans richly deserve everything coming. I think it is clear that we are not intelligent enough to survive long term.

Sad but true.Unfortunately,it may be that evolution just isn't fast enough.I hope not.

Instead of buying voodoo carbon offsets, you could...

2009-05-31T16:56:09.014-04:00

Instead of buying voodoo carbon offsets, you could just plant a bunch of trees in your yard. Reduce some carbon and get some enjoyable shade and maybe even reduce your carbon footprint with the shade and wind break.

If you already live in a forest, there are plenty of legit programs that let you donate to plant trees. I know they take money in Israel to plant trees there. If you don't want to support Jews, there's certainly other programs out there.

Offsets are really an example of trying to do some...

2009-05-31T16:52:47.652-04:00

Offsets are really an example of trying to do something because it is better than nothing. However, given the lack of standards and transparency they are not a great substitute for measurable action taken at the immediate level.

Hopefully as cap and trade and/or carbon taxes get put into place there will be more 'natural' market forces to encourage the preservation of carbon sinks such as forests and purchase and implementation of higher efficiency products. As has been noted, the proposed increase in CAFE standards on cards will increase the cost of a new vehicle by over a thousand dollars, and by doing so save consumers money over their ownership of the car.

I agree with Nataraj that selling of carbon offset...

2009-05-31T16:48:12.400-04:00

I agree with Nataraj that selling of carbon offsets is very susceptible to corruption. I have an image in mind from the 2008 Italiam film Gomorrah, in which the mafia gang has agreed to cart off hazardous waste but is, of course, putting it into unregulated dumps (or ones in which the officials have been bribed to look the other way.

Selling offsets abroad is of dubious credibility, with virtually no ability to control the process.

Matt @ 3:24 is exactly right in his assessment, an...

2009-05-31T16:41:42.445-04:00

Matt @ 3:24 is exactly right in his assessment, and either a carbon tax or a cap and trade system with or without offsets (and with permits either given away or auctioned off) will likely result in exactly that outcome.

While the two general strategies have some advantages and disadvantages compared with one another, both provide strong incentives for energy users to limit their carbon emissions in the most efficient way possible.