Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Race and the 2008 Election, Revisited

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2009-10-10T06:21:08.334-04:00

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キャッシングインプラントクレジットカード　現金化

2009-07-23T01:43:14.553-04:00

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Thanks for keeping this going. I feel we are real...

2009-04-28T10:00:00.000-04:00

Thanks for keeping this going. I feel we are really getting somewhere. I hope its been good for you as well.

We have the same trend again in Washington DC. So why are very few of the high paying jobs going to African Americans. I would argue that the individuals in many cases are not qualified.

How do you fix that? improve education. Uhoh the public school system in DC and New Orleans are pretty terrible. So how do you fix that.... another republican idea :-p. School choice. Providing an alternative education (way out) to escape the cycle of low paying jobs and despair.

That Jill Bolte Taylor talk was amazing, extremely...

2009-05-04T11:55:00.000-04:00

That Jill Bolte Taylor talk was amazing, extremely moving.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

I can see how you thought 'gee, here's a high bar' (but you did well :] )

It fits in because the primary modes of wealth dis...

2009-04-27T19:14:00.000-04:00

It fits in because the primary modes of wealth distribution in New Orleans are inheritance, investment and wages. The first two are great if you have someone to inherit money from or enough money to make an initial investment-and nobody in the Iberville does. That's why opening a small business there would be impossible for the people that live in that neighborhood-as low as the property values around there are, you still have overhead-and that will run you much more than they're getting from SSI or TANFF.

The only hope they have of getting the capital together either to start their own businesses or to escape from the Iberville is through wages. Now, the choicest jobs in New Orleans go to the whites, as a general rule. If you look around town, you will see the better paid workers are generally several shades lighter than the lower paid workers.

That means the people in the Iberville are screwed. No job means no escape from poverty.

This must change

Nova middle man I don't disagree that just employ...

2009-04-27T14:58:00.000-04:00

Nova middle man

I don't disagree that just employing someone because they are a particular race is wrong. But I would question whether or not America is race blind enough yet to get rid of Affirmative Action entirely. (Of course it could be argued that affirmative action is one thing that continues the racism).

I think its a policy that is not explained well enough, and its historical context is not explained well enough. What I personally don't agree with is quotas, but I do think there is nothing wrong with using affirmative action as a tie breaker during a selection process.

I also think it works. Look at how effective the Rooney rule is in the NFL. Its 20 years since the first African American Head Coach was appointed in the NFL (Art Shell). By my calculation 6 teams currently have African American Head Coaches, (the Steelers, Colts and Buccaneers are all on their 2nd AA Head Coach), and a further 7 have had an AA head coach in the past. 2 have won the Superbowl. Its not that you have to give jobs to African Ameriocas, but there is clearly benefit to giving them the opportunity to show they are capable.

There is a very similar siutation in Washington DC...

2009-04-27T11:29:00.000-04:00

There is a very similar siutation in Washington DC with several of the areas across the Anacostia river.

I'm not really sure how racism from employers fits into the equation.

In DC at least there are very few employment opportunities/small businesses period. Now this is admittedly a Republican spin idea :-p but I think helping enterpenuers in troubled regions would go a long way towards fixing the problems. You could even give a bonus for local enterpenuers.

The drug/crime isssue would still be a problem but this would the job situation at least and ensure some pride of ownership in the community. Maybe over time people from the community could actually take over the bussinesses.

There is of course tons of history on this. Asians and Indians often started businesses in ghetto type regions and some have become very wealthy due to these actions. The trick is providing security to help the businesses thrive adding more employees which adds more income to the area which reduces the dependence on illegal activity for income.

I'm okay with mixing the section 8 homes in with t...

2009-04-27T10:39:00.000-04:00

I'm okay with mixing the section 8 homes in with the regular ones. I think the problem these folks face is that, since most of the wealth in New Orleans is concentrated in the white neighborhoods (and it is-you see fresh pavement uptown, potholes downtown), the cops don't bother going to the Iberville anymore. They go where the tax base-and their paychecks-are.

That's what I'm trying to describe here, you see. Segregation is gone, sort of. The law doesn't prevent services from reaching Black people explicitly anymore, but still those services are denied to them down here.

This has to change. I want a level playing field where anybody, no matter what their skin color, has an equal chance of success. I want a society where the only thing that determines if you make it or not is how hard you bust your ass.

To do that, you have to uproot the tendency toward racism from employers

Nice story but affirmative action is NOT going to ...

2009-04-27T09:33:00.000-04:00

Nice story but affirmative action is NOT going to change what is occuring.

Its pretty interesting how views are shaped by personal experiences.

You have described a ghetto neighborhood. There are thousands of ghetto neighborhoods some are black some are hispanic some are white some are asian and some are mixed. I don't know if there is a solution to ghetto neighborhoods. Its like pouring money down a sinkhole.

The current trend is to demolish them (aka no more entire section 8 neighborhoods) When you have that high of a concentration of poverty, drugs, unemployment, low skills, and hopelessness the only way to make a dent in the problem is to eliminate such a high concentration of factors living together.

The thing is there will ALWAYS be poor people and there will always be ghetto neighborhoods. We can have affirmative action for the next 50 years and I bet you there will be little change in the neighborhood. Its generation upon generation of neglect, ignorence and hopelessness and the only way to break it is to split it up.

You know something, I live in a majority Black com...

2009-04-26T23:16:00.000-04:00

You know something, I live in a majority Black community and am half-White, half-Asian. Yeah, I stand out like a sore thumb sometimes.

There are some awkward social interactions at times. I remember one time overhearing a co-worker at this part-time summer job I took before going to college talk about how she met this white guy, but he was nice. I noticed that she felt she had to add that last part almost any time she met a white guy that had been nice to her. As if to say, most white guys don't, and if she didn't add a qualifier, the normal thing to assume was that they weren't.

New Orleans is a city with a long and brutal story of race relations. The place where they used to sell slaves is still there, part of the park downtown. Nearby, the Iberville Estates is low-income housing that is almost exclusively Black, wedged between the French Quarter the Tremé, and a quiet little neighborhood whose name escapes me at the moment. Most people downtown talk derisively about the crime problem int he Iberville, and say that it brings down the property values and they should just bulldoze the thing. Nobody ever talks about where the people that live there would go to live. I guess they just wish they'd all go away, just disappear.

Segregation is illegal today, of course, although this is a recent development. The Iberville is practically all Black not because anyone says white people have to live here and black people have to live there, or that they can't live together. Its that way because, even today in 90% African-American New Orleans post-segregation and after Affirmative Action, the best paying jobs still go to the whites that live here, and the only people who are poor enough to have to live int he Iberville are Black.

It says something about a neighborhood when even the homeless people avoid it. Its known locally as a killing field, a place where crack, smack, and guns are the only law there is. I remember walking over by there on my way to Armstrong Park. I wandered a little too close to the Iberville, and this older Black guy put his hand on my shoulder and led me across the street, away from the place. He said something about how dumb kids like me should watch where the hell I'm going, and do my parents know where I am, and wanted to know if I was into drugs or something, as if that was the only reason why anyone would ever go there.

Uptown there is the Garden District, where two of the main Universities in town are. Clean streets, elegant old homes-and by that I mean old-some are older than the city you live in, mister. Old money lives up there too, and alot of it. Some of those used to be plantations. They're all very far from that place they used to sell slaves, which is walking distance to the Iberville. Oh yeah, almost everyone there is white.

Am I to believe that the reason why a kid that grows up in the Iberville is somehow stupider than the kids that grow up in the Garden District? That by some weird chance of luck, all the hard working people live uptown, that the people born downtown lack merit? Well, I don't believe that.

There is still a form of segregation here, even if it is not written in the law books. Its written in people's minds, and its very hard to erase. Like that older lady at the summer job I had, whose impression of white people was that the nice ones were the rare exception.

We still need Affirmative Action, and will, until New Orleans' past is finally laid to rest.

nova_middle_man: Your claims about a "crutch" wor...

2009-04-26T20:39:00.000-04:00

nova_middle_man:

Your claims about a "crutch" work very well on the other foot. How many whites use claims about "reverse discrimination" as a crutch to avoid doing things to better themselves? Do you think it's mostly the highest-qualified whites who spend lots of time thinking about or complaining about affirmative action programs?

You can believe anything you want, but you might want to examine some studies of UNCONSCIOUS attitudes toward race and take them into account, even if their results bother you (as they should bother all of us):

"Unconscious bias test" Google results

A company has 100 employees. All of the 100 emplo...

2009-04-26T18:56:00.000-04:00

A company has 100 employees. All of the 100 employees are white. The company states that it can't hire anyone but white employees because no non-whites apply.

Sounds plausible, doesn't it?

Upon further inspection, we find that the company does not do any advertising about job openings, but lets word of mouth spread the word that there is a job opening. It is only the top management that is entrusted to spread the word about the job opening. Further, the management are all members of all-white country clubs and other societies (such as the club for former employees of the specific company), etc.

What if the company actually advertised the job openings, the qualifications for such jobs is taught at the University 10 miles down the road? And taught to students who are not all white?

The above scenario is one that Affirmative Action addresses. AA is not designed as a 'quota machine', but rather to find why minorities are not hired, and what steps the company needs to take to hire minorities.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

I truely believe that for a majority it is true. ...

2009-04-26T16:37:00.000-04:00

I truely believe that for a majority it is true.

Ok so there are some small areas in rural white America. I would argue there are just as many places in urban black america that think the white man is still out to get them and use that as a crutch instead of respecting and working to improve their community.

nova_middle_man: Let me make it clear that I don'...

2009-04-26T16:01:00.000-04:00

nova_middle_man:

Let me make it clear that I don't support "reverse discrimination" of the type that the Supreme Court correctly invalidated years ago in the Bakke decision. That said, this kind of blithe assertion is not magically true, just because it feels right to you for it to be true:

"A white kid and a black kid born in 1980 in the same town attending the same schools there is no difference"

For this to be true, it would have to be true that no-one bases any part of their judgment on a person's skin color anymore. I think the term "magical thinking" applies to such an assertion. Racism was built over hundreds of years; how soon do you think it would totally disappear from everyone's minds, such that there REALLY is "no difference"?

MarkyMark First of all once again thanks for bei...

2009-04-26T14:37:00.000-04:00

MarkyMark

First of all once again thanks for being a voice of sanity on the left. I think you actually misinterpreted my post. I agree with your definition of affirmative action but many here have different views of what it actually is/should be.

I repeat it is highly ironic and racist to state that a specfiic group of people needs a handout to be able to get a job which is what many on the left are arguing here

A white kid and a black kid born in 1980 in the same town attending the same schools there is no difference and yet the black kid can go to college with much lower test scores and abilites. And contrary to the intent of affirmative action can also in many cases get a job just because of the color of his skin. Not only does this rightly infuriate the white kid the black kid is always left wondering am I actually good enough do I deserve this or is it just because of what color I was born with.

MLK is rolling over in his grave.
If we are going to have an equal society we need real equality.

Racial preference is racism and is wrong white, black, purple, green or yellow.

theonlysaneone posted, in part, as follows: "If t...

2009-04-26T14:15:00.000-04:00

theonlysaneone posted, in part, as follows:

"If the goal is a meritocracy, admissions and job applications need to be completely race-blind. For the most part, if affirmative action is not in play, they ARE."

What's your evidence that race usually plays no part in hiring decisions, when hirers are left completely to their own devices? It seems to me that you've really summed up the naive core of one sort of objection to race-conscious correctives in hiring, education - and above all, recruitment.

I'd hasten to add that I am strongly opposed to UNQUALIFIED individuals of any sort being hired for jobs. Only prejudiced people or people who misunderstand what affirmative action is supposed to be and do believe that's what it is and does. Before affirmative action, somehow, no women were qualified to be firefighters? No blacks were qualified to be firefighters in Memphis? No blacks or women were qualified to be professors at or attend certain universities? And when they were forced to end their discrimination on paper, they suddenly changed their mindsets 100%?

Someone else will search literature for proof that more white women than black folks have benefited from affirmative action policies, but just use a little logic and think about the numbers of people involved, and it'll be pretty obvious. Are you aware, for example, that men tend to do better on college entrance exams like the SATs than women, but yet are in general less likely to succeed in college (demonstrating that the bias in SAT results is counter-predictive on the basis of sex)? Are you further aware that for some time now, a clear majority of college students has been female? Think back to all the court cases that forced fire departments, for example, to successfully integrate women. Etc., etc. Blacks are around 11% of the U.S. population, while women are a small majority. So who do YOU think it's most benefited?

nova-middle-man said The irony in all this is that...

2009-04-26T13:54:00.000-04:00

nova-middle-man said
The irony in all this is that actual supporters of Affirmative Action are actually racist when you think about it.

In essence supporters of Affirmative action are saying someone they can't get a job on their own merit and need help inferring that they are somehow inferior.

Actually all affirmative action is supposed to be is an effort to market or advertise toward "underperforming" groups in an effort to get a greater pool of untraditional applicants. Selective hiring only legally applies if you have an equal woman/AA/hispanic vs a white male. In those cases only it would go to the former group. All other opportunities are required by law to based on merit.
------------------------

I think this gets to the heart of the problem about more conservative views about affirmative action. NMM is assuming that the minority being hired must automatically be less qualified, able to do a job. I don't quite know how affirmative action works in ALL cases, but often in my experience, it is not hiring someone less qualified, it is hiring someone equally qualified, but using there race or gender as a determining factor. (Sort of- well both these two people are great for the job, but I have one white guy and one black guy, we will hire the black guy'.)

Now that is not fair on that individual white person. And you would hope that after 40 years that AA would be less necessary. I get the feeling that over the next 20 or 30 years it could be faded out generally. But I do think that right now it is still necessary.

@nova_middle_man So if you acknowledge that racia...

2009-04-26T12:51:00.000-04:00

@nova_middle_man

So if you acknowledge that racial discrimination in society puts a group at a disproportionate disadvantage, then you're a racist?

That's some really crazy spin.

Again, you guys don't really have a clear conception of what constitutes racism.

The irony in all this is that actual supporters of...

2009-04-26T12:38:00.000-04:00

The irony in all this is that actual supporters of Affirmative Action are actually racist when you think about it.

In essence supporters of Affirmative action are saying someone they can't get a job on their own merit and need help inferring that they are somehow inferior.

Actually all affirmative action is supposed to be is an effort to market or advertise toward "underperforming" groups in an effort to get a greater pool of untraditional applicants. Selective hiring only legally applies if you have an equal woman/AA/hispanic vs a white male. In those cases only it would go to the former group. All other opportunities are required by law to based on merit.

Actually, it will be race-blind, after the tendenc...

2009-04-26T11:44:00.000-04:00

Actually, it will be race-blind, after the tendency toward racist hiring practices is corrected. That's the point of Affirmative Action. It's like how the point of nicotine gum isn't because you can't smoke indoors and you need a fix, it's to help you quit smoking. Well, American employers have been conditioned for half a millennium to base their hiring decisions on race in such a way that women and minorities are disadvantaged, and effect which is countered by Affirmative Action. We're trying to break a bad habit here, you see?

"The problem is that black children are not being ...

2009-04-26T09:51:00.000-04:00

"The problem is that black children are not being educated well enough to be represented in these high places. I'm sure that is a position you can agree with."

I don't know if you meant how this sounds, but this categorical statement comes off as somewhat racist.

"Hiring underqualified minorities is not solving the problem, it is simply masking it. And like I said before, regardless of what the intentions are, it is racist."

Again, you seem to be suggesting that all minorities are inherently underqualified. The reality is that, at the highest level, admissions to top universities are flooded with so many roughly equal applications that the decision is largely arbitrary anyway (and is often merely determined through connections). There are plenty of people of all colors out there with 4.0 GPAs and near-perfect SAT scores. Affirmative action merely assures that the proportion of qualified minority candidates reflects the proportion of their population in society.

"Affirmative action is racist and, in some cases, good policy for the exact reason you just stated. My point is that the two are not mutually exclusive, and racism is not necessarily a bad thing."

My point is that you're falsely conflating racism with selectivity based on race. While the latter can be discriminatory, it does not necessarily reflect the specific ideology of racism.

@saneone: This article from Wikipedia is not autho...

2009-04-26T04:41:00.000-04:00

@saneone:
This article from Wikipedia is not authoritative, but is a start on looking at the influence of "legacies" (i.e., children of previous graduates) in (mostly private) college admission decisions.

"Are you kidding me? How about the greatest advant...

2009-04-26T03:39:00.000-04:00

"Are you kidding me? How about the greatest advantage of them all? BEING WHITE!"

The "advantage" of being born white is that you have a higher chance of being born into a better standard of living. Were I a poor white kid, given the opportunity to trade being white for wealth and a great education, I would gladly do so.

"Affirmative Action is corrective. That means it is there to correct something, to change it into something else. The employee does not need correcting. We're not trying to reward or penalize the employment candidate for their race. We are trying to correct a tendency that has been conditioned into American employers for 500 years, specifically, the tendency to judge a new applicant on external factors unrelated to their merit. The employer is being corrected, not the employee. Therefore, our consideration is not to select the employment applicant that had the harder life."

If the goal is a meritocracy, admissions and job applications need to be completely race-blind. For the most part, if affirmative action is not in play, they ARE. The problem is that black children are not being educated well enough to be represented in these high places. I'm sure that is a position you can agree with.

Hiring underqualified minorities is not solving the problem, it is simply masking it. And like I said before, regardless of what the intentions are, it is racist.

"So, I guess I'm just patiently waiting for you folks to pass on so we can enjoy a country where hard work and dedication to your craft is what matters more than some outdated bigotry that just makes you look so damned old to us."

My generation will die off long after yours. I'm 18 years old.

"The greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action policies and programs are not blacks, but white women. It's also a truism that there have always been more legacies - children of mostly rich, white alumni of universities - than recipients of any kind of consideration on the basis of minority race or ethnicity. So why do you suppose we hear so many more complaints about the, um, "uppity" black folks who supposedly benefit so disproportionately from special consideration? Do I make myself clear?"

This is a truism? Has there been any study whatsoever done on this subject? If so, I would love to see it.

The greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action p...

2009-04-26T02:43:00.000-04:00

The greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action policies and programs are not blacks, but white women. It's also a truism that there have always been more legacies - children of mostly rich, white alumni of universities - than recipients of any kind of consideration on the basis of minority race or ethnicity. So why do you suppose we hear so many more complaints about the, um, "uppity" black folks who supposedly benefit so disproportionately from special consideration? Do I make myself clear?

You miss my point entirely. Affirmative Action i...

2009-04-26T00:00:00.000-04:00

You miss my point entirely.

Affirmative Action is neither racist nor is it the consolation prize for having had a shitty life.

Affirmative Action is corrective. That means it is there to correct something, to change it into something else. The employee does not need correcting. We're not trying to reward or penalize the employment candidate for their race. We are trying to correct a tendency that has been conditioned into American employers for 500 years, specifically, the tendency to judge a new applicant on external factors unrelated to their merit. The employer is being corrected, not the employee. Therefore, our consideration is not to select the employment applicant that had the harder life.

The goal is a meritocracy. We are rapidly advancing toward that, as is evidenced by the growing number of women and minorities in government. However, we see several groups still woefully underrepresented. There is as of yet only one Black Senator, two Buddhist and one Muslim Members of Congress, and less than 50% female representation in either chamber or on the SCOTUS. There are no sitting Native American justices and the ratio of Hispanics in government does not match their percentage in the general population. As for GLBT people, we have one lesbian and two gay men in Congress and no Senators, no justices, and not yet even a President.

Once the tendency to consider these external factors as a barrier to employment are lifted, as will be reflected by the electorate's willingness to select candidates based on merit alone, and therefore yielding the approximate same proportion of these minorities in government as exists int eh general population, then Affirmative Action will no longer be needed, as we will have achieved something much closer to the desired meritocracy.

Were this a racist scheme, the goal would not be meritocracy or proportional representation in government and other forms of employment, not would it be temporary. Then, the goal would be a permanent majority of any one particular group in government or in employment.

In other words, assuming a normal distribution of merit across the entire population, with a large enough sample size, minority groups should exhibit the same proportion of merit as the larger majority population does. Therefore, if we are hiring based on merit alone, the same proportion that exists in the general pop will exist in the workforce.

If there are, say, 16% of the population that is Black, then approximately 16% of the total workforce should be Black. 51% of the American population is female (why are they considered a minority? Over half is a majority), then 51% of the total workforce should be female. roughly 6% is gay male and about 8% lesbian, so you should see those same proportions showing up int he workforce as an aggregate whole.

Further, the same distribution int he general pop should exist at all levels, including in government. Since American Indians make up 1.5% of the US population, there should be at least 1 Native American Senator and 6 Congressmen, for example. When we get at least close to this kind of representation coming spontaneously out of the electorate with no manipulattion by government to produce it, it will mean that we are close enough to a meritocracy to jettison Affirmative Action.

This probably won't happen until after the older generations have died off. It could just be me showing pride in my generation, but I have noticed that the older folks are more bigoted than we are. For instance, my sexuality is not really a big deal to most folks my age. It only seems to be a problem for you older folks. Further, I find that most of my friends voted for Obama based on his merits as a candidate, and the ideas he represented being alot like our own. Race is something I hear the Baby Boomers talking about all the time.

So, I guess I'm just patiently waiting for you folks to pass on so we can enjoy a country where hard work and dedication to your craft is what matters more than some outdated bigotry that just makes you look so damned old to us.