Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: On Transition Website, Obama Promises More to Gay ...

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2009-10-02T04:33:07.663-04:00

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2009-04-16T01:59:00.000-04:00

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Coserning civil rights, Obamas plan to help the ga...

2009-03-24T22:47:00.000-04:00

Coserning civil rights, Obamas plan to help the gay community is great. Protecting against unfair descrimination for civilians should be on his list of problems to fix. All citizents should be treatsed equally by the law, in this case there are no law that say ban gay mariges or their right to adoption as ligaly as heterogeniuse maries couple. If there is a law that would allow gays to do what they want it goes agains many people religions and beliefs creationg conflicts with government interests. conserning thsi Column, its reldiculose to thing that Obamas' campaign "gay and lesbian community is not mentioned EXPLICITLY," I think its enough the mentioned it in one of Obama's transition websites. i mean arent there bigger problem america is facing? do we have to include Gay rights in every Policy making america faces? I think it's fine that the Obama campain didnt mention it the other columns because the nation has to fix problems bigger than that.

Coserning civil rights, Obamas plan to help the ga...

2009-03-24T22:43:00.000-04:00

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2009-03-07T04:11:00.000-05:00

希望大家都會非常非常幸福~「朵朵小語‧優美的眷戀在這個世界上，最重要的一件事，就是好好愛自己。好好愛自己，你的眼睛才能看見天空的美麗，耳朵才能聽見山水的清音。好好愛自己，你才能體會所有美好的東西，所有的文字與音符才能像清泉一樣注入你的心靈。好好愛自己，你才有愛人的能力，也才有讓別人愛上你的魅力。而愛自己的第一步，就是切斷讓自己覺得黏膩的過去，以無沾無滯的輕快心情，大步走向前去。愛自己的第二步，則是隨時保持孩子般的好奇，願意接受未知的指引；也隨時可以拋卻不再需要的行囊，一路雲淡風輕。親愛的，你是天地之間獨一無二的旅人，在陽光與月光的交替之中瀟灑獨行。

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2009-01-16T05:04:00.000-05:00

But: none of us are going to be at that table.

2008-12-31T00:54:00.000-05:00

But: none of us are going to be at that table.

I am a gay man who sees the validity of having War...

2008-12-30T16:30:00.000-05:00

I am a gay man who sees the validity of having Warren as a participant in the inauguration. Obama is right that we need everyone at the table if we are going to move forward.

Isolation and segregation are proven failed strategies for civil rights growth.

We must be bigger than our opponents.

WELL I HOPE THAT OBAMA COULD ACCEPT AN INVITATION ...

2008-12-29T17:14:00.000-05:00

WELL I HOPE THAT OBAMA COULD ACCEPT AN INVITATION TO AN MCC CHURCH IN DC. IT CERTAINLY WOULD HELP BRIDGE THE GAY CHRISTIAN DEVIDE NICELY.

The point I am trying to make, though, is that 'gr...

2008-12-29T03:22:00.000-05:00

The point I am trying to make, though, is that 'green libertarian' made an all inclusive statement that any and all 'belief systems' have certain core beliefs that include 'are love your neighbor and the Golden Rule'.
-Mike

I corrected my misstatement,(hours before your post excerpted above), like you, I realized right after I posted I had made a mistake, yet you still dwell on it?

What up wit dat?

Speaking of those fucktard white supremecists, I was involved in getting Richard Butler kicked to the curb in northern Idaho.

Bob X,Point taken. I realized my error about the ...

2008-12-29T01:57:00.000-05:00

Bob X,

Point taken. I realized my error about the inhabitants of New Guinea after I hit the 'publish comment' button.

However, in the past there have been societies that have eaten (at least some body parts of) the bravest of their defeated enemies in order to ingest the warrior spirit of that enemy. There is some evidence that some have interpreted that that happened in pre-Columbian tribes in the Caribbean and North America besides the Aztec and Incan societies, and probably included the Mayan. There also is evidence that it happened in other societies in other parts of the world.

The point I am trying to make, though, is that 'green libertarian' made an all inclusive statement that any and all 'belief systems' have certain core beliefs that include 'are love your neighbor and the Golden Rule'. That is patently false. It might be more true of religions (although that is also a stretch), but Fascism, Nazism, Communism and most other modern day -isms can be called 'belief systems', and I certainly would not try to state that the first three I stated had a core philosophy that included 'love your neighbor and the Golden Rule'. In fact, the philosophy of Bob X,

Point taken. I realized my error about the inhabitants of New Guinea after I hit the 'publish comment' button.

However, in the past there have been societies that have eaten (at least some body parts of) the bravest of their defeated enemies in order to ingest the warrior spirit of that enemy. There is some evidence that some have interpreted that that happened in pre-Columbian tribes in the Caribbean and North America besides the Aztec and Incan societies, and probably included the Mayan. There also is evidence that it happened in other societies in other parts of the world.

The point I am trying to make, though, is that 'green libertarian' made an all inclusive statement that any and all 'belief systems' have certain core beliefs that include 'are love your neighbor and the Golden Rule'. That is patently false. It might be more true of religions (although that is also a stretch), but Fascism, Nazism, Communism and most other modern day -isms can be called 'belief systems', and I certainly would not try to state that the first three I stated had a core philosophy that included 'love your neighbor and the Golden Rule' are antithetical to the core beliefs of Nazism and Communism, along with many of the white supremacists that currently reside inside the United States.

@Mike: you are slandering the people of New Guine...

2008-12-29T01:12:00.000-05:00

@Mike: you are slandering the people of New Guinea, who only ate dear relatives, to keep their spirits alive inside them; the very thought of eating enemies would be profoundly repugnant to them.

Point taken, Mike. I meant to say the core princi...

2008-12-28T22:06:00.000-05:00

Point taken, Mike. I meant to say the core principles of most religious belief systems. In the current world, meaning such systems that cover somewhere around 85% of the population.

As I understand it, the Aztecs practiced human sacrifice both on their own clan, and on their enemies.

Your statement about 'core belief' is as asinine as those religious nutcases who state that a person who doesn't believe in 'religion' cannot have any morals at all.

Completely illogical analogy, tho I certainly agree that religion is not at all necessary for one to have morals.

green libertarian said.... . . the central core te...

2008-12-28T21:01:00.000-05:00

green libertarian said...
. . . the central core teaching of every belief system, as to human relations, are love your neighbor and the Golden Rule.

EVERY belief system (aka religion)???

Does that 'core principle' apply to the Aztecs and the Incas, who used human sacrifice of defeated enemies?

Does that 'core principle' apply to the head hunters of New Guinea (and others), who thought ingesting the body of a defeated enemy would instill in the 'ingestor' the bravery of the enemy?

Remember, most of those human sacrifices noted above were done with sacrificial victims who were alive during the sacrifice, killed (most in severe pain) as a direct result of the sacrifice.

No, there are many belief systems (aka religions) who have as part of their core belief system the philosophy of 'destroy your (non-related) neighbor before your neighbor destroys you'.

Your statement about 'core belief' is as asinine as those religious nutcases who state that a person who doesn't believe in 'religion' cannot have any morals at all.

If one solely uses religion to justify bigotry, ho...

2008-12-28T18:23:00.000-05:00

If one solely uses religion to justify bigotry, how is that different from someone solely using religion to justify nondiscrimination?

The reason it IS different is because the central core teaching of every belief system, as to human relations, are love your neighbor and the Golden Rule. Now, of course, there is no absolute reason that those principles exist because of a super-natural being, I understand that. Sure, it's just common sense, one can say.

However, it's completely incongruent with those two central principles to justify bigotry and discrimination. Those that do so under the color of religion are utterly and completely WRONG.

Now the fundies use this bullshit "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap in order to continue to promote bigotry, which again, goes completely against the two central principles, it's a weasel move, simply designed, like so much other religious claptrap, to control and abuse people, demonize people in order to maintain power, or, most commonly, raise funds from the gullible thru the use of fear tactics.

Historically, people of faith who engaged in action, like say, the Quakers who ran the Underground Railroad, risked incarceration and their lives because their core beliefs taught them that ALL people must to be treated in accordance with those central beliefs. Some may have believed they were "doing god's will", or that engaging in such activities would assure them a place in heaven. (Altho, in the case of Quakers, that "reward" concept has little to no meaning, and Quakers believe that god exists in each and every person, so treating people according to the two central principles, you are by definition, honoring god.)

I have seen this work in the real world. When our city council was debating whether or not to extend benefits to same-sex partners of city employees, we countered the fundies with progressive church leaders and laypeople and got it passed. Of course there were other arguments to be made on the matter, but as we've seen in numerous situations, you've got to confront these fundies head-on with the ridiculousness of their argument, people of faith can make a powerful argument to change the mind of those still on the fence about such issues.

It's similar to the experiences I've had with antiwar activities. After getting access in the schools to do counter-recruitment efforts, we found it quite powerful to use veterans who were anti-war.

If one uses religion, and solely religion, to just...

2008-12-28T16:24:00.000-05:00

If one uses religion, and solely religion, to justify something, it is WRONG.

If one solely uses religion to justify bigotry, how is that different from someone solely using religion to justify nondiscrimination?

One can use religious arguments as one of many bases for supporting or fighting a viewpoint (as ALL in the Civil Rights struggles in the 1960s did), but to use it alone, to the exclusion of all other reasons, is blasphemous to religion.

@Mike in Maryland:I like your posts generally, but...

2008-12-28T15:06:00.000-05:00

@Mike in Maryland:
I like your posts generally, but Joshua and green libertarian should never be mentioned in the same breath. Joshua is in need of broadening (to put it mildly) on issues pertaining to gays. green libertarian is definitely for gay rights. If his religion tells him that gay rights should be upheld, then more power to him! Toleration includes tolerating people who hold religious faith. Those who use their faith to justify repression and denial of rights should always be called to account, of course. Not for their religion, of course, but for their other views. Perhaps the famous quotation should be amended to read: "Patriotism and religiosity are the last refuges of a scoundrel."

Joshua, 'green libertarian' and others who use rel...

2008-12-28T14:50:00.000-05:00

Joshua, 'green libertarian' and others who use religion to justify discrimination against gays, do you agree that discrimination was correctly justified by religion in the cases I've cited above?

First of your premise is completely WRONG, I certainly DO NOT use religion to justify discrimination against gays, QUITE the opposite.

Religion has been use for MANY nefarious practices and laws. Duh.

It has ALSO been used to advocate for full civil rights for all and for social justice.

While one can argue that purely secular motives are the only thing necessary to achieve such goals, that approach has had little success, and ignores the SIGNIFICANT efforts and numerous personal sacrifices by believers to advocate for, and affect the change necessary to accomplish such worthy goals.

MLK is but one civil rights leader who advocated for full civil rights, partially, and powerfully, on the basis of his religious faith, and belief in the fundamental teachings attributed to Jesus Christ.

Many in Nazi Germany used religion to justify disc...

2008-12-28T13:16:00.000-05:00

Many in Nazi Germany used religion to justify discrimination against the Jews.

Many in apartheid South Africa used religion to justify discrimination against black South Africans.

Many in the US used religion to justify slavery prior to the US Civil War.

Many in the US used religion to justify segregation and other forms of discrimination against blacks after the US Civil War.

Many in Czarist Russia and later used religion to justify pogroms and other forms of discrimination and state terror against Jews.

Joshua, 'green libertarian' and others who use religion to justify discrimination against gays, do you agree that discrimination was correctly justified by religion in the cases I've cited above?

Or do you see a common theme - that a**h**es who want to discriminate use the seemingly unassailable "The Bible told me so" excuse to discriminate against others?

Think VERY carefully before responding.

green libertarian:"Told ya'll not to feed the trol...

2008-12-28T04:48:00.000-05:00

green libertarian:
"Told ya'll not to feed the troll, an especially ignorant one, at that."

If you begin a post with that statement, then direct the remainder of your post toward me does it or does it not seem logical to you that you would be referring to me as an ignorant troll? If that sentence was regarding Joshua, then make it clear to everyone, and don't be surprised when the person who the post was for takes offense. I dropped and broke my crystal ball yesterday, so I'm temporarily unable to read minds.

To add to what DMC in FL said regarding using religious faith as an argument for civil rights: Brown vs. Board of Education, Rosa parks and the Montgomery boycott, lunch counter sit-ins and other forms of civil disobedience, the Civil Rights Act and the 24th Amendment were not accomplished with religious arguments. If anyone had tried they would've been laughed into oblivion.

Do unto others and love thy neighbor are just plain common sense. Because they were made part of a religious doctrine does not make them religious arguments. On the other hand, when people argue that their deity tells them some people are bad and others good, so civil rights should only apply to the good people, the entire argument becomes ridiculous. Get it now? Was that elementary enough for you? I don't know how I can make the separation of religious dogma and secular civil rights any more clear, so I'm going to quit trying.

GREEN said:"If you do not understand how the prote...

2008-12-28T02:25:00.000-05:00

GREEN said:

"If you do not understand how the protest movement, the marches, the inspiring speeches, all of it, organized by Dr. King affected not only the conscious of the population, but affected legislation to redress, well, then, why are you constantly preening about the success of your attending a gay rights march in '93, and wanting to have another one?"

my point exactly !!! were you not among the dismissive that there is strength in #'s in the streets ?

yes of course there are even if the direct results or 'accomplishments' are difficult to quantify...

same goes for MLK - he was one of many in the SCLC leadership, and his vocal protests & speeches along with meetings & marches & boycots that involved MANY helped crack open enough doors to pave the way for real change enacted by others [such as JFK & LBJ] through the judiciary & political systems

my point being there are many efforts & multiple paths toward change that may be divergent but hopefully converge down the road as long as the committed keep up the good fight

peace out

Two hundred and FIRST!STepper said...(Unless, of c...

2008-12-28T02:21:00.000-05:00

Two hundred and FIRST!

STepper said...(Unless, of course, you enjoy feeling that you're the victims.)
But of course! They don't call us "drama queens" for nothing! Seriously, emotional hypersensitivity and homosexuality do seem to go together often; maybe that's why we're such favorite targets for bullies.

@Joshua: When you tell us our sexuality is a "choice", don't you have any clue how insane it is is to tell US what is or isn't in OUR heads? When I make a choice, I know about it, in that totally direct, cogito-ergo-sum way that I know what it is that I am seeing. When you tell me YOUR opinion about something that I totally know about and you don't, it is as useless and crazed as telling me I have three arms.

DCM, I seek clarity, understanding, and truth. I'...

2008-12-28T02:11:00.000-05:00

DCM, I seek clarity, understanding, and truth. I've been known to to wrong, and if I am, I appreciate a reasoned and logical correction.

Joe has accused me of being intolerant and insulting. I don't see that I've I have done that, and seek clarification of that serious charge.

I'll not digress into extraneous issues such as Al Gore, it is not relevant. Unless you care to charge he has not stopped global warming because he is a believer. Which would be absurd. Drop it.

Any serious scholar of the civil rights movement knows that without MLK and MANY other persons of faith, LBJ would have not had to do jack shit about civil rights.

If you do not understand how the protest movement, the marches, the inspiring speeches, all of it, organized by Dr. King affected not only the conscious of the population, but affected legislation to redress, well, then, why are you constantly preening about the success of your attending a gay rights march in '93, and wanting to have another one?

For the fun it of, or for actually accomplishing the long denied full civil rights of gay people?

Non-believers are 15% of the population, and probably less than 10% of the senior judiciary. Good luck with those odds, should you decide to deride and mock those who because of yes, horror of horrors, their religious beliefs tell them that equal rights for ALL people should be the law of the land.

This is the 199th post on this thread.In case you ...

2008-12-28T01:55:00.000-05:00

This is the 199th post on this thread.In case you don't know,you can continue to post but posts after 200 will not be visible here.

To see them,click on "Post a Comment" and scroll down the window.

This is a public service announcement.

Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: On Transition Website, Obama Promises More to Gay ...

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Coserning civil rights, Obamas plan to help the ga...

Coserning civil rights, Obamas plan to help the ga...

希望大家都會非常非常幸福~「朵朵小語‧優美的眷戀在這個世界上，最重要的一件事，就是好好愛自己。好好愛...

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But: none of us are going to be at that table.

I am a gay man who sees the validity of having War...

WELL I HOPE THAT OBAMA COULD ACCEPT AN INVITATION ...

The point I am trying to make, though, is that 'gr...

Bob X,Point taken. I realized my error about the ...

@Mike: you are slandering the people of New Guine...

Point taken, Mike. I meant to say the core princi...

green libertarian said.... . . the central core te...

If one solely uses religion to justify bigotry, ho...

If one uses religion, and solely religion, to just...

@Mike in Maryland:I like your posts generally, but...

Joshua, 'green libertarian' and others who use rel...

Many in Nazi Germany used religion to justify disc...

green libertarian:"Told ya'll not to feed the trol...

GREEN said:"If you do not understand how the prote...

Two hundred and FIRST!STepper said...(Unless, of c...

DCM, I seek clarity, understanding, and truth. I'...

This is the 199th post on this thread.In case you ...

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