Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: The Final Words (For Now) on Zieglergate

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2009-02-08T21:22:00.000-05:00

Nate;How was it stupid to ask Obama supporters who...

2008-11-25T08:30:00.000-05:00

Nate;
How was it stupid to ask Obama supporters who was in control of congress (Democrats or Republicans) and how come less than half of Obama supporters got that right? (43%)

You can't convince me, fairly, that Obama voters got that question wrong because of the question.

For that matter, how is it stupid to ask the people who supported the man which candidate won his first election by getting the other two candidates knocked off of the ballot? (18% of Obama voters got that right)

Democrats keep telling me that they are better informed. If so, how is it that I knew the answers about their candidate, when they clearly didn't?

-John

Nice work, Nate. The whole thing's kind of a joke...

2008-11-23T15:50:00.000-05:00

Nice work, Nate. The whole thing's kind of a joke, but amusing nonetheless. At least it's good to see that most reasonable people have condemned the whole thing as a farce. Anyone who touts this as proof of anything regarding media bias or the knowledge of Obama voters will look pretty silly.

Nonetheless, I tried to take up Ziegler's challenge and create a questionnaire for McCain supporters. Wonder how they'd do?

http://feignedoutrage.blogspot.com/2008/11/howjohnmccainalmostwoncom.html

While I agree 100% that this "poll" was deeply fla...

2008-11-23T03:44:00.000-05:00

While I agree 100% that this "poll" was deeply flawed, I actually think that right-wingers doing these types of things will help liberals immensely. Why?

Because as long as the crazies keep deluding themselves into thinking that it was something, anything, other than their own failed policies and techniques that run counter to every national demographic change and trend that doomed them in '08, they won't ever get it. Right-wing world has been in overdrive to insist that conservatism did not lose; if anything, it needs to move FURTHER right.

Let's send idiots like Ziegler some money and support. They'll only dig their graves that much deeper if they continue to ignore reality. Tp paraphrase a recent issue of The Economist: "If the Republicans continue to think the problem is the "rats" that abandon ship, as opposed to the seaworthiness of the ship itself, it is doomed."

instead of push poll - perhaps it could be called ...

2008-11-22T21:12:00.000-05:00

instead of push poll - perhaps it could be called a propaganda poll as it is being done only to promote a forgone position. Zeigler had no interest in finding anything out, he just wanted to prop up his opinion.

"Limbaugh somehow managed to pull off the trick of...

2008-11-22T19:14:00.000-05:00

"Limbaugh somehow managed to pull off the trick of convicing white, middle-class Americans (like me) that they are the most put-upon, unfairly treated people in the world"

As African-American comedian Chris Rock says to his audience: "There's not one white person here that would change places with me. Not one of you. And I'm RICH!"

"I think that the poll actually shows that "on ave...

2008-11-22T19:08:00.000-05:00

"I think that the poll actually shows that "on average" Dems are less informed than Reps."

It does no such thing. It can't possibly show anything about how "informed" republican voters are as compared to democrats because none of them were even interviewed. And the only thing it says about democratic voters (who were interviewed) is that they were unable or unwilling to recite or agree with republican talking points (as read by the poll questioner).

Ziegler exhibits all the bitterness one expects fr...

2008-11-22T16:48:00.000-05:00

Ziegler exhibits all the bitterness one expects from a second tier loser.
I'm sure in his mind, he is better than say a Glenn Beck. He probably is. But that is about as low a bar as can be set. Face it, the train has left, Ziegler, and you are left in Palookaville.

You people are horrible to criticize Ziegler behin...

2008-11-22T15:32:00.000-05:00

You people are horrible to criticize Ziegler behind his back. At the very least you could have the decency to go to his home:
401 N Pass Ave, Burbank, CA 91505
and say these things to his face!

Or, if you don't live in the L.A. area, the only somewhat respectable thing to do is call him at his home: (818) 841-8941
 or his cell (502) 905-2656  

This is obviously what Ziegler was hoping for when he made it so easy for an internet novice such as myself to track down his private info.

Oh, almost forgot: Go f*ck yourself Mr. Ziegler!

Huh... when even the Wall Street Journal won't bac...

2008-11-22T08:58:00.000-05:00

Huh... when even the Wall Street Journal won't back you up, that's a pretty good sign you may have veered too far right.

Or is the WSJ one of the traditionally Republican media organs breaking ranks with the party's nuttier branches in the aftermath of McCain's defeat? I haven't kept as up-to-date as I probably should be...

@GaMes:Thanks for the second and your observations...

2008-11-22T00:44:00.000-05:00

@GaMes:

Thanks for the second and your observations on general practice.

I should have noted that Arthur P. said (see comments on the interview story) that:

"Zogby called me for this poll, and I can assure you that the only 'none' answers I gave we UNprompted."

in response to Mark Adams remarking to Nate:

"if you had looked at the full results of the survey you would have seen that there were four choices given to the 'see Russia' question and one of the answers was 'None.' The correct answer was provided."

I'm still wondering if our host (Mr. Silver) or one of the principals (Mssrs. Ziegler or Zogby) will enlighten us.

You gotta hear this 90 minute blogradio on why the...

2008-11-21T21:54:00.000-05:00

You gotta hear this 90 minute blogradio on why the media has a blackout of the looming Obama Birth Certificate Constitutional Crisis:

http://politicalpistachio.blogspot.com/2008/11/why-is-obamas-birth-certificate-still.html

@ goatdanZiegler told Fox News that he spent about...

2008-11-21T20:36:00.000-05:00

@ goatdan

Ziegler told Fox News that he spent about $13,000 on the poll and on a related short film, both of which will be used in his documentary.

let's just go back to the original standard of vot...

2008-11-21T19:08:00.000-05:00

let's just go back to the original standard of voting rights. only white male landowners. fine people, like myself, who know a thing or three about politics:) that way we can avoid these shenanigans zeigler is so upset about. that will surely give us a very representative government of and by the people. provided these people are white land owning men:)

Another possible explanation for this lies in the ...

2008-11-21T17:52:00.000-05:00

Another possible explanation for this lies in the "my team vs. your team", sporting event nature of our politics. The focus always seems to be on looking for the other team to slip up. It's quite possible that each side's supporters are more knowledgeable about the opponent than they are about their own candidate.

I'd be interested to see how people did on questions that focused on issues that are seen as positive (at least by their own supporters) for the candidates.

E.g.
- "Which candidate is a decorated war veteran?"
- "Which candidate was editor of the Harvard Law Review?"
- "Which candidate defied popular sentiment and publicly opposed the invasion of Irag?"
- "Which candidate succeeded in getting major campaign-finance reform legislation passed?"
etc.

I love that Ziegler, in his "editorial" (i.e., a b...

2008-11-21T17:08:00.000-05:00

I love that Ziegler, in his "editorial" (i.e., a blog post that doesn't allow comments), condemns the "profanity-laced emails" he received. We read the transcript, dude. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Or, considering his radio background, maybe "Men in glass sound booths shouldn't throw rocks" is more apt.

Nate makes "Media Matters""Watch what happens when...

2008-11-21T16:53:00.000-05:00

Nate makes "Media Matters"

"Watch what happens when right-wing documentarian John Ziegler squares off with blogger, Nate Silver, (aka "the ememy")to discuss Ziegler's it's-the-media's fault project.(Such profanity!)"

http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200811200002

dorkenergy said...@Nate or other knowledgeable sou...

2008-11-21T16:27:00.000-05:00

dorkenergy said...

@Nate or other knowledgeable source:

[Asked by others and still unanswered here AFAIK]

When the questions were posed to the interviewees was "none" stated as an option? It is listed in the poll.

The picture remains incomplete without this.

I'm not sure in this particular case, but "none" and "not sure" are almost never included on surveys, by Zogby or anyone else. If you give the respondent the "easy out" where they don't have to commit to an answer, you'll get a lot of non-responses.

If the respondent says not sure or none unprompted, most pollsters will still tend to include one last push (e.g. "If you had to guess based on what you've heard, would you say Obama, McCain, Biden, or Palin?"), only recording the not sure/none response if they say it a second time. This also varies a lot depending on the specific question; people tend to be a lot more hesitant about giving an answer to an objective question if they have any doubt at all. (No one wants to look stupid, even to a total stranger on the phone.)

That said, given the incredibly poor design on this survey, I would not be surprised if "none" or "not sure" were actually included -- if you want to reinforce your preexisting notion that the respondents are all uninformed and/or unintelligent, then you'd want to include the none/not sure "out" so that as many as possible would take the bait. As such, I wouldn't put it past Ziegler to have written questions like that, and Zogby's "screening" clearly wouldn't have caught it.

So, I'll second dorkenergy's request: If any of you actually took this poll, do you remember if the "none of the above" and/or "don't know/not sure" answers were listed as actual answers?

"Furthermore, how can you claim something that CHA...

2008-11-21T16:19:00.000-05:00

"Furthermore, how can you claim something that CHANGES can be a "fundamental fact?"

It's a fundamental fact that the Democrats control congress NOW you idiot.

sfergus483 said... -Gate is one of those things...

2008-11-21T16:00:00.000-05:00

sfergus483 said...

-Gate is one of those things that gets attached irrespective of original meaning.

Another is MEGA.

Actually, mega (no caps needed) means 10**6 or 1 million. Kilo means thousand. Now the science lesson is over...

Let the wingnuts go on howling for the next 4 years. This Ziegler thing is good to expose (us) liberals to the kind of nutso logic they try to use summed up by "no Democrat can legitimately win an election in the USA".

They must have stolen it, their voters were misinformed and/or the media was in the tank for them. Let them go on howling for as long as they want.

What I'd like to see is Repubs going off to be a splinter party like the Dixiecrats and a real liberal party, say the Greens, take hold in the US. Maybe, just maybe in 50 years or so we could catch up to Europe in being at least semi-civilized.

Barack Obama represents a damn good first step.