Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: A Passing Thought On Rick Warren

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http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/19/warren-celebra...

2008-12-27T00:26:00.000-05:00

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/19/warren-celebrate-recovery/
quotes him from 2005 advising us to change to a "heterosexual lifestyle"; but I did hear that more recently he decided based on experience with the "ex-gays" that this just doesn't work, so now he says "homosexuals should just do without sex". However, I just can't find that quote. I did however find a personal testimonial from someone who had endured Warren's "therapy" sessions:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/12/rick-warren-and.html#more

wv: torepel. No comment.

BobX,Citations for your claim?

2008-12-26T19:15:00.000-05:00

BobX,

Citations for your claim?

No, just_looking, you are mistaken about what he t...

2008-12-26T15:08:00.000-05:00

No, just_looking, you are mistaken about what he thinks. He does not believe, with Dobson, that we can be "turned straight" by the appropriate therapy: he acknowledges that we will never feel attractions to the other sex, and therefore wants us to undergo "aversion therapy" to neuter us and make sure we don't have any sexual functioning at all.

There is no point in "engaging" someone like this: I see no chance that he can ever be converted to a more reasonable attitude, as he refuses to look at anything that doesn't feed his sense of superiority to others. He is a firm enemy who will wish us harm all the days of his life. I don't want to waste time discussing anything with the likes of him; I just want his power reduced, as much as possible. Obama's action in increasing his prominence was profoundly unfriendly.

@DCM,By that definition of "bigot", all of us are ...

2008-12-26T08:28:00.000-05:00

@DCM,

By that definition of "bigot", all of us are bigots.

Thus, a clarification is in order by what I meant by "bigot". Warren is not bigoted against gays, because he doesn't believe gays exist as a class.

Obama is being an opportunist by inviting Rick War...

2008-12-25T23:18:00.000-05:00

Obama is being an opportunist by inviting Rick Warren.

The whole "work together despite our differences" is an empty platitude and reeks of a ringing endorsement of bigotry.

Don't think so?

Why didn't Obama use Rev. Wright for the invocation? After all, he was close to him for couple of decades, and would have lesser in difference than with Rick Warren.

Or how about Louis Farrakhan?

Obama should be ashamed of inviting a bigot under the veil of unity. This is the same Rick Warren who compared homosexuality to incest and pedophilia.

There should never be tolerance of bigotry.

What would the peacemakers say were a white supremacist invited to be on stage so that "we can show the world that we can work together despite our differences"?

JUST_Lookingdefinition of a bigot:"A bigot is a pe...

2008-12-25T23:13:00.000-05:00

JUST_Looking

definition of a bigot:

"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset."

that pretty much describes Rick Warren;s evangelical beliefs.

In other words, you are incorrect - Warren is a classic 'bigot' even if he relies upon his biblical interpretations to justify his beliefs that his is THE only way

and that is not imho - it is a fact

call 'em like I see 'em

speak truth to power

@DCM,I agree the inaugural invocation is not engag...

2008-12-25T17:37:00.000-05:00

@DCM,

I agree the inaugural invocation is not engagement (I never said it was). Nor did I say I support the choice of Warren to deliver the invocation.

I did say he shouldn't be denied the invocation on the grounds that he is a bigot (he isn't), and that he and what he represents should be engaged in a respectful dialogue that will help to persuade.

Just_Lookingyou are entitled to your opinion - but...

2008-12-25T15:57:00.000-05:00

Just_Looking

you are entitled to your opinion - but IMHO your opinion is just superficial rational for propogating discrimination

because it IS pandering to symbolically elevate such a person who uses his bully pulpit to suppress the rights of LGBT, women, science & common rational sense in a country where all are aupposed to be equal [rather than some more equal than others] - IMHO

how is this 'engagement' ?

there is no 2-way or multi-party dialogue in an invocation PRAYER

real engagement & dialogue is valuable in the proper setting & context

the inauguration is NOT the time or place - it is as one-sided where Warren has all the power of the pulpit - as the FAUX News special that they are ruinning in a loop this holiday where they give pastor Rick a hour or more to further his agenda through his 'Christmas with Rick Warren'

THAT is also not engagement - it is preaching that is not fair or balanced, but on FAUX that is no surprise at least

WV - taste

the bitter taste of tears [from the old 'Do They Know It's Xmas' charity song]

@DCMI disagree.Warren's (mis)understanding of sexu...

2008-12-25T15:12:00.000-05:00

@DCM

I disagree.

Warren's (mis)understanding of sexuality does not make him an intolerant bigot. Whether or not someone with Warren's understanding is worthy of the inaugural invocation, he should be engaged. Such engagement is not pandering, nor negotiating away civil rights.

JUST_LOOKINGyou are correct about the 'faith' vs '...

2008-12-25T13:33:00.000-05:00

JUST_LOOKING

you are correct about the 'faith' vs 'science' re: Warren

that is why it is so offensive & pandering to honor him on that day in such a manner

a 'creationist' as well as an intolerant bigot - when Obama calims he wants to promote SCIENCE & tolerance

Warren is neither in many ways, and THAT is why putting a homophobe, anti-choice, creationist, pro-WAR, anti-stem-cell, anti-religious freedom, evangelical center stage si NOT reaching across the aisle to engage - it is symbolic PANDERING that everything is negotiable, including civil rights & liberties

why now send such a divisive message when there are plenty of other options ???

smart 'politics as usual' but it is NOT the CHANGE that we believed in that is for damm sure

it is the same old same old - bash the margins to try to appease the center

WV - masta

we are expected to keep quiet & take the insult & say, "yes, masta"

Thanks all for those links. My two cents:The link...

2008-12-25T09:37:00.000-05:00

Thanks all for those links. My two cents:

The links demonstrate Warren's viewpoint derives from two core beliefs: 1) sexuality is "what you do", not "who you are", and 2) homosexuality is a sin. The former is needed in order to keep the latter rational (God wouldn't have made homosexuality primarily immutable and at the same time a sin), but flies in the face of science.

If the first core belief were true, Warren's views would not be hateful towards any class of people (gays wouldn't be a class). Thus, I am not persuaded that choosing Warren is an accommodation of a hate-filled, vicious bigot on par with the KKK. Instead it's an accommodation of the denial of science that results in hate, bigotry, etc.

Is that accommdation too much for the inaugural invocation? I'm not sure. I am however sure Warren, and what he represents, should be engaged, not ostracized. But, that engagement must shine a light on the impacts of Warren's viewpoint in order to persuade.

@Dr. PresidentI'm a young Republican; trust me, I'...

2008-12-25T05:38:00.000-05:00

@Dr. President

I'm a young Republican; trust me, I've already gone through the pissed and depressed phase. I went through that fairly quickly; this is me experiencing acceptance of the current trends.

What I'm not understanding is why in the world you folks on the other side of the political divide are going haywire over this. There are people like Bob X, who would allow an invocation that won't last more than 5 minutes trump the fact that the party they liked is now in complete control of the government; to the point that they would've sat on their hands and not voted for Obama.

It's ludicrous to the point that the only explanation is that it's largely been manufactured by the media and some very outspoken activists. All you have is conjecture; Obama hasn't even really DONE anything yet but the left is so goshdarned politically sensitive that it's not able to place even a little confidence in Obama.

This is the kind of division I experienced when I went to the Texas Republican Convention. Except, at least they had reasonable objections, even if I found them to be invalid. The objections of some conservatives off the convention floor to supporting McCain wholeheartedly was based on real, substantive issues that were defined by actions McCain had taken and legislation he had helped pass they they didn't agree on. I actually like moderation, so sue me.

Here, Obama hasn't done anything and the left is so insecure about itself that it's bloating a non-issue to the point that it's damaging their golden boy. Geez. You guys are destroying Rick Warren of all people. You're not going to run the country for long if you satisfied with feeding the base. That's one of the reasons we lost the election. You need to reach out. It doesn't mean you have to agree, you just have to show that you respect the opposing side. There's a reason why Obama hasn't rescinded his invitatin to Warren; it would the schemer in me esctatic if he did. The right could be riled up about something at least; we could say that he really is just a lapdog of the left who is going to answer their beck and call. Obviously, he's too smart for that.

I want to echo D.P.'s comment though that if you guys are still talking about this in February then the left really needs to reprioritize. So much energy on the left could be focused on issues that matter more; that guy on the street who got laid off is going to care more about getting a job then spreading gay marriage rights.

Wait. You know what? Go ahead and make that the focus for the first few months of the Obama Administration. Use that valuable honeymoon period to fight a divisive, politically costly battle to win gay rights in a manner that's insensitive to opposing views. Let the economy fester and implode even further while you waste time with that. I certainly don't mind...

JUDASunfortunately, Warren has been trying to cove...

2008-12-25T01:17:00.000-05:00

JUDAS

unfortunately, Warren has been trying to cover his tracks as far as scrubbing his Saddleback website in the last 2 days to remove most of his posted grosswly offensive writings/rantis about the evil gays... including that gays are not welcome to be members of 'his' congregation as well as providing services to 'cure gays

BUT there is still a webcast on the church site where Rick vocally encourages his followers/sheeple to VOTE YES on PROP 8 [which should actually cause their exempt status to be revoked since that is political

also, readily available all over the net are his lunatic rants on the Today Show & Dateline last week [also shown on MSNBC] where he intentionally & without encouragement compared gay marriage to incest & pedophilia, etc. with a 'straight' face [Warren is deeply troubled IMHO - just like Rev Teg Haggard & all the other self-hating closet cases]

also, he made a fool of himself last week on Hannity where Warren says the job of government is to go out to destroy the evildoers - like make war on Iran

[cut & paste]...on Fox News, Sean Hannity insisted that United States needs to "take out" Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Warren said he agreed. Hannity asked, "Am I advocating something dark, evil or something righteous?" Warren responded, "Well, actually, the Bible says that evil cannot be negotiated with. It has to just be stopped.... In fact, that is the legitimate role of government. The Bible says that God puts government on earth to punish evildoers. Not good-doers. Evildoers."

Warren is a warmonger of the worst type [holy war], and encouraged Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld to make war, not peace btw

see a series of pertinent blogs & news video clips including the Hannity one on the Rick Warren thread @ Crooks & Liars:

http://crooksandliars.com/taxonomy/term/1226

also, several recent Rachel Maddow shows on MSNBC covered the Warren controversy & documented his bigotry in writing & on the film which should be available in her archive...

hope that helps

I am sure that somewhere online someone has archived 'the worst of Rick Warren' too

here is a video clip where Rick Warren Comparing Gay Marriage to incest on YouTube @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZMf9mPB_nE

on Tuesday of this week:

"On Tuesday, Warren's church replaced a brief article on the Bible and homosexuality with an audio message on Saddlebackfamily.com to better explain the church's view that Scripture prohibits sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman, according to Larry Ross, a Warren spokesman.

Anyone can attend Saddleback worship services. But the church article had said that gays "unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted" as members.

Saddleback members must sign a broadly worded covenant in which they agree to follow Bible teachings."

I also find him extremely offensive not only because he is PRO-war for holy reasons, but he is stridently anti-choice & compares abortion to Nazi death camps & the holocaust.

Remember Terry Shiavo case in FL [removal of the comatose woman's feeding tube which was a GOPer stunt ?

In 2005, during the Terri Schiavo controversy, Warren called Michael Schiavo's decision to remove Terry Schiavo's feeding tube, "an atrocity worthy of Nazism."

In the Dateline interview his justification for openly supporting Prop 8 was: "Warren stated his reason for supporting Proposition 8, saying that he feared that gay marriage would lead to hate speech prosecutions of Christians who oppose gay marriage and view homosexuality as sin."

Warren is also stridently anti-stem cell research & euthanasia.

Plus, Warren has stated that homosexual behavior is not a natural way of life and thus not a human right. "We shall not tolerate this aspect at all." He has also stated that gay marriage is not a civil right. In a conversation with atheist author Sam Harris in Newsweek magazine, Warren spoke out against evolution and in favor of creationism !!!

[from wiki] which has some good references for you to pursue if desired...

so I opposed Warren's choice since he is not only anti-gay [including marriage but certainly not limited to that], anti-choice, anti-religious freedom, anti-civil rights for anyone who disagrees with his biblical interpretations, anti-evolutionist [creationism], PRO-WAR, anti-stem-cell research & euthanasia, and many more reasons.

he has some PROs that are admirable in comparison to other evangelicals in fairness [but not nearly enough to balance out the hate

Warren does support global warming initiatives, anti-poverty [but in other countries mostly], fight against HIV & AIDS [in Africa but not much support at home]

but he is a egomaniacal publicity seeking self-promoter primarily who never met a camera he didn't lust for

did you see him trump Jimmy Carter's 'lust in his heart' in the Dateline piece where he 'brags' that he can't help but lust after every woman he encounters becausae it is his nature - but he fights that 'evil' [or so he claims] and that gays should fight their natural instincts & find the cure in gawd [paraphrased]

DCL:Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

2008-12-25T01:06:00.000-05:00

DCL:

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

@Bob X"I'm sure he won't be an asshole on January ...

2008-12-25T00:52:00.000-05:00

@Bob X
"I'm sure he won't be an asshole on January 20, but he will parlay the Obama endorsement into more appearances, to spread his bile more widely. He has already gotten an appearance at the King Center on MLK Day, of all inappropriate places and times for him, out of this, and you can be damned sure we will still be dealing with this in February, and all year long."

Who the hell is "we"? Speak for yourself. The only one who will still be dealing with this is YOU. The rest of us will have moved on.

@billyez: And as for YOU, billyez, your day to get pissed and feel betrayed is coming soon enough, so even though I agree with you, you're not out of the woods yet. Don't get cocky.

@Judah Cohen:I can't find everything I'm looking f...

2008-12-25T00:44:00.000-05:00

@Judah Cohen:
I can't find everything I'm looking for but here's a little light reading,
http://www.miketidmus.com/blog/2008/12/22/rick-warren-and-aids/
http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/obama-selects-eliminationist-preacher-warren-for-inauguration-pulpit-the-audacity-of-hate/

@billyez:
"First of all, Rick Warren stuck his neck out for Barack Obama in a parallel situation six or so months ago when he invited Obama to his church."
No, what would be parallel would be if Obama invited Warren over for a "prayer breakfast" or whatnot; that would not have stirred up this reaction. Warren did not invite Obama to lay the symbolic cornerstone of his church: there is no call for Obama to be giving Warren this level of honor.

"There's also the fact that there are two preachers that will be praying at the invocation."
No, one is doing the invocation, a slot traditionally reserved for the most respected, or one of the most respected, preachers in the country (Billy Graham owned it for decades); another is doing the "benediction", a slot reserved for someone much less prominent but whom the President-Elect feels like honoring. If Lowery were doing the invocation and Warren the benediction, again we would not be having this discussion.

"it's not like Warrens going to go up there and be anything but dignified... We won't even be talking about this in February."
I'm sure he won't be an asshole on January 20, but he will parlay the Obama endorsement into more appearances, to spread his bile more widely. He has already gotten an appearance at the King Center on MLK Day, of all inappropriate places and times for him, out of this, and you can be damned sure we will still be dealing with this in February, and all year long.

"You would have still voted for him if you had known about the Warren deal "
No.

"You guys have a Democratic Congress and a Democratic President. You're going to have your dream of more gay rights being passed."
That's what I feel unsure about. Obama knows that the whole campaign platform cannot actually be translated into the agenda, some things always have to be sacrificed. This choice appears to be a signal that gay rights will be the sacrifice: if Republicans will let him have his way on environment, aid to Africa, etc. Obama won't mind so much if they quash the gay-rights bills for something to tell their constituents they won a victory on.

There are two things everyone seems to forget in t...

2008-12-25T00:24:00.000-05:00

There are two things everyone seems to forget in this controversy.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52998

First of all, Rick Warren stuck his neck out for Barack Obama in a parallel situation six or so months ago when he invited Obama to his church. The religious right was furious about Obama being invited to speak at a church being led by one of the rising stars of the evangelical movement. But you know what Warren decided?

Warren decided that we need to be able to at least hear the opposition. Unity is not omissin of the opposition. Barack Obama came to the same conclusion. The fact that both the political left and right had the same equivalent reaction in these cases displays how both sides need to calm the heck down.

There's also the fact that there are two preachers that will be praying at the invocation. I don't know the other one, but I know he's far more conciliatory on the issues that are upsetting the left.

The funny thing is, it's not like Warrens going to go up there and be anything but dignified. He's not going to denounce homosexuality and decry abortion. He's going to pray for unity and for competence in our government, say Amen and be done with it. We won't even be talking about this in February.

What this does do, however, is demonstrate what the political left is really all about. I didn't vote for Obama, but since the election, he's been gaining more and more of my respect if not my support. He's been doing a lot to demonstrate to me that this whole unity thing is something he actually does care about doing with his cabinet selection and his invitation of Warren to pray at the inauguration.

He has the left in his pocket. Get depressed. Get mad. Yell. Decry your support of Obama. Whatever. You would have still voted for him if you had known about the Warren deal and you're still going to vote Democratic despite it. Or, throw you're vote away on a third party in some symbolic protest.

It's gotten to a point where even Pat Robertson has begun to applaud Barack Obama's actions as President-elect. Obama has played it smart and he's making it more and more difficult for me to be totally against him.

You guys have a Democratic Congress and a Democratic President. You're going to have your dream of more gay rights being passed. A prayer at an inauguration is not going to change things.

You've won. Enjoy your victory. Chill out.

Being straight (but, I hope, not narrow) and havin...

2008-12-24T23:37:00.000-05:00

Being straight (but, I hope, not narrow) and having no close family members (that I know of) who are GLBT I generally do not follow the details about controversies regarding GLBT issues. What friendships I had are dissolved through death or distance. Could someone post a link to exactly what Warren has said. I know his general (quite negative) position on GLBT rights but the postings about him here mention statements so beyond the pale that, if indeed he made them and has not retracted them, that would cause me to change my shoulder shrug attitude about his giving the invocation.

But I do need direct evidence - the actual statements - not somebody else's conclusions or characterizations. Legal training and trial work has instilled in me a huge distrust of hearsay stories.

WV=nuffoxie

It's OK, I can breathe.

Jeff Edwards the presumption on this site has been...

2008-12-24T21:19:00.000-05:00

Jeff Edwards

the presumption on this site has been by many of the regulars that Nate is family, but that he is not generally out in public

have you seen him on the cable shows ? there have been many comments along this line on 538 & else, including numerous BF offers

one of the reasons I believe that an inordinate number of the regulars here are LGBT besides his liberal/progressive politics

fwiw

Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: A Passing Thought On Rick Warren

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http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/19/warren-celebra...

BobX,Citations for your claim?

No, just_looking, you are mistaken about what he t...

@DCM,By that definition of "bigot", all of us are ...

Obama is being an opportunist by inviting Rick War...

JUST_Lookingdefinition of a bigot:"A bigot is a pe...

@DCM,I agree the inaugural invocation is not engag...

Just_Lookingyou are entitled to your opinion - but...

@DCMI disagree.Warren's (mis)understanding of sexu...

JUST_LOOKINGyou are correct about the 'faith' vs '...

Thanks all for those links. My two cents:The link...

@Dr. PresidentI'm a young Republican; trust me, I'...

JUDASunfortunately, Warren has been trying to cove...

DCL:Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

@Bob X"I'm sure he won't be an asshole on January ...

@Judah Cohen:I can't find everything I'm looking f...

There are two things everyone seems to forget in t...

Being straight (but, I hope, not narrow) and havin...

Jeff Edwards the presumption on this site has been...

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