Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Explaining the Contradictory Torture Polling

shma said: "The burden of proof is on those who wa...

2009-05-07T19:35:00.000-04:00

shma said:
"The burden of proof is on those who want to legalize war crimes, not on the people who want the law to be applied."

I agree... this is one of the reasons I oppose the use of torture. Please take the time to both read and understand the message of my original post. Which of course was to attack the use of using absolutes in a debate on a topic that has none. You fall into this trap again shma by saying "There was never any case where they saved lives by torturing, yet they did it anyways."

How can you possibly state there was no case where torturing saved lives? In the immortal words of Wolfgang Pauli, "Not only are you not right, you are not even wrong."

Mike in Maryland, I am not stating that torture brings results, correct results, or no results at all. I am stating that we cannot know for certain the effectiveness of torture. Experts clearly disagree on its effectiveness (see my first post), so providing one example (and a horrifically poor one at that, having a SERE instructor obtain a willfully incorrect statement relates to obtaining correct intelligence how? It is merely a theory, and the theory's core belief is that people can be broken and forced to lie under torture. It doesn't refute the claim that torture can produce valid information.) does not prove your case.

Insect Litany said... I'm not much of an absolutis...

2009-04-29T01:52:00.000-04:00

Insect Litany said...
I'm not much of an absolutist, so I think there are exceptions to almost every rule.

nova_middle_man said...
I hate to do this but most of you have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

Matthew Peter said...
Individuals who claim to know whether or not torture or harsh interrogation techniques work are lying to themselves.

On April 27, Mike Ritz, former army interrogator, former SERE School instructor (the SERE School is where they teach American soldiers how to withstand 'harsh interrogation techniques, aka torture), and one of the SERE School personnel who appeared in some of the videos demonstrating how water-boarder was done, appeared on Countdown. Keith was discussing how Hannity volunteered to be water-boarded, but has since backed down.

Ritz volunteered to water-board Hannity. When Keith asked him why, Ritz responded that he would guarantee that Hannity would admit to Countdown being Hannity's favorite show on all of television.

So all of you stating that torture brings results - you are probably correct. The question is, are the results correct, or are they only what the torturer wants the torturee to say?

Video on Keith's page at MSNBC.com, then click April 27, and then click #1 'Hannity still afraid'.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Thanks, PeteKent, for reminding us of the Republic...

2009-04-28T18:24:00.000-04:00

Thanks, PeteKent, for reminding us of the Republican view that governing the nation is something that should be done according to reactionary gut feelings and vengeful impulses (and personal profit motives, of course), rather than ethical principles, rational policy, or federal law.

@ Pragmatus, I don't think Lincoln was over the t...

2009-04-28T17:47:00.000-04:00

@ Pragmatus,

I don't think Lincoln was over the top. I included that reference because, as I said, I have seen others refer to that. My reference wasn't intended to indicate agreement, just that as now when Kit Bond will go on Hardball and declare "America does not torture", that multiple points of view exist.

PeteKent: These dumb Dems forget the mood of the n...

2009-04-28T15:35:00.000-04:00

PeteKent: These dumb Dems forget the mood of the nation after 911

I see. How does that justify the 2005 torture memos? Does the smoking gun last four years?

And focusing on a so-called "caterpillar in a box" ignores, well, 183 waterboards in a month. The point isn't that some of what was in the memo wasn't toruture (though anything can be torture if that's what your greatest fear is); the point is that some of what was in the memos clearly is and violated our own and international law.

If we care about rule of law anymore, that is.

And if people want to ignore all the statements by those who actually do interrogation that "enhanced" techniques usually won't get information that you wouldn't get otherwise, that it gets all sorts of bad information that we can act upon to our own detriment (e.g. a "confession" that there was a link between Saddam and al-Qaeda), that our use of those techniques cause others to join the cause against us (confirmed cases of Iraqis joining the insurgency because of Abu Ghraib, which extended the fight and cost lives), well ignore away. But I'd think a cost-benefit analysis would have to look at costs too, not just isolated instances where, maybe, information was obtained that might not have been acquired otherwise.

And that's before we get to the question as to whether we'd rather live at some minimally greater risk in a nation that stands for something than perfectly safe in a nation that stands for nothing. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, and all the others put their lives on the line for principles, even though they could have lived in much greater security under the British. Are there any principles we're willing to do anything for today?

These dumb Dems forget the mood of the nation afte...

2009-04-28T15:01:00.000-04:00

These dumb Dems forget the mood of the nation after 911: We would have willingly ripped the nipples off these bastards just for sport had we caught them. This incessant focus on torture (a caterpillar in a box? come on!) only goes to prove how out of step the left is with the rest of the nation and will make many remember why they reject the Democratic Party ideologically as the party of weakness and appeasement.

Pelosi will wind up more damaged than Bush over this. He is after all out of office and the inquiry will only serve to remind us that he kept our nation safe during the rest of his presidency. Obama, on the other hand, pursues unilateral disarmament.

"This man will be tested", Joe Biden warned of Obama during the campaign. I suspect he will. And he will lack the tools to pass that test.

America will not then be forgiving and it maybe Obama who winds up with the "purple nurple" and not our enemies.

PeteKent01 (on twitter)

Matthew Peter said... "There is no evidence...". ...

2009-04-28T14:50:00.000-04:00

Matthew Peter said...
"There is no evidence...". You can't possibly be sure there is no evidence since we are dealing with highly classified matters and a subject that science cannot explore empirically.

The burden of proof is on those who want to legalize war crimes, not on the people who want the law to be applied.

smk22 said...
I also take issue with those separating the moral issue from the effectiveness issue. If torture is effective in ways that no other techniques are, choosing not to torture has serious moral implications in terms of putting lives at risk.

An 'ends justifies the means' argument is a recipe for barbarism. You need only look at the Bush administrations application of torture to see that. There was never any case where they saved lives by torturing, yet they did it anyways.

Fantasy scenarios that have never happened don't justify the real deaths that have occurred under torture.

These polls are almost as disheartening to me as t...

2009-04-28T14:28:00.000-04:00

These polls are almost as disheartening to me as the actual revelations of torture. Count me as one of those who feels torture is so wrong that only a ridiculously far-fetched situation, probably involving the Death Star, could make it advisable to consider it.

I had thought Americans would have more moral rectitude on this issue. Something has got to be done.

smk22 & Saint Dude, I think you are both arrivin...

2009-04-28T14:24:00.000-04:00

smk22 & Saint Dude,

I think you are both arriving at the same conclusion... one I have come to as well.

I don't mean to speak for anyone but I believe smk22 was taking issue with the fact that people bolster their arguments by talking in absolutes. This does several things-- not the least of which it allows others to easily refute your argument since there are few if any absolutes in the world (in the case of torture there are practically none).

I feel you fall into this trap in your second bullet by stating "There is no evidence...". You can't possibly be sure there is no evidence since we are dealing with highly classified matters and a subject that science cannot explore empirically.

Wayward Son: Collins? Snowe? Put your fingers in t...

2009-04-28T13:39:00.000-04:00

Wayward Son: Collins? Snowe? Put your fingers in the wind, and see which way it's blowing.Neither Collins nor Snowe is facing a primary for 2010 that they seemed certain to lose. Specter's defection seems to me not only ideological, but also political: it was his only real path to reelection. So I wouldn't expect anything from either of the Mainers.

But the PA Democratic primary could get very interesting.

Saint Dude, That was exactly my point. I agree wi...

2009-04-28T13:21:00.000-04:00

Saint Dude,

That was exactly my point. I agree with all three of your bullets. There is not sufficient evidence that torture works to make it worth the moral costs.

I took issue only with those who said that effectiveness is completely unrelated to morality. There are moral dimensions of effectiveness.

As for the Arlen Specter news: We can all expect ...

2009-04-28T13:19:00.000-04:00

As for the Arlen Specter news:

We can all expect the GOP to double down on their efforts to delay the seating of Senator Franken.

Has intrade established the odds of T-Paw signing the election certificate after the MNSC confirms Franken as the victor in the election? Whatever the odds were, they are likely to be significantly less now.

smk22- Without trying to nitpick, I see several p...

2009-04-28T13:13:00.000-04:00

smk22-

Without trying to nitpick, I see several problems with your position:

1) There is minimal evidence that torture works at all.

2) There is no evidence that torture works better than traditional interrogation techniques.

3) Thus, if effectiveness is made a part of the moral argument, then one could argue that torture is immoral simply because it appears to be less effective.

A slow day when Arlen Specter changes party affili...

2009-04-28T13:06:00.000-04:00

A slow day when Arlen Specter changes party affiliation?

Thank you, Matthew Peter. I too was distraught at...

2009-04-28T13:01:00.000-04:00

Thank you, Matthew Peter.

I too was distraught at some of the absolutist posts, e.g., Torture never produces valid information.

It stands to reason that some person, at some point, gave someone valid information under torture or the threat thereof.

I also take issue with those separating the moral issue from the effectiveness issue. If torture is effective in ways that no other techniques are, choosing not to torture has serious moral implications in terms of putting lives at risk. It's not the argument I would make, I don't think I would support waterboarding in any circumstance, but I think it's incorrect to treat the two as unrelated.

The DSCC said it will not support a primary challe...

2009-04-28T13:00:00.000-04:00

The DSCC said it will not support a primary challenge to Arlen, so any opposition on the left would have to come from a grassroots recruitment effort. I think they are officially playing nice with Specter in order to get cloture votes and possibly to entice some of the remaining New England Republicans to caucus with the Dems, also.

Arlen is one of the twistiest politicians in the mix right now, so it wouldn't shock me to see him migrate even further leftward as he rediscovers a progressive view of most government functions. He was a Democrat longer than he was a Republican, and I expect he wants to be liked more than he wants to stick to principles he adopted only to get elected by Republicans.

Collins? Snowe? Put your fingers in the wind, and see which way it's blowing..

Hey Nate, have any comments about Areln Specter sw...

2009-04-28T12:46:00.000-04:00

Hey Nate, have any comments about Areln Specter switching parties? Any predictions as to how this will shake up the 2010 elections?

Now from the sublime to the ridiculous... Doesn't...

2009-04-28T12:42:00.001-04:00

Now from the sublime to the ridiculous...

Doesn't the government have better things to do than nanny-watch the airwaves for vulgarities?

We pay the CIA to do our damn dirty work. If they ...

2009-04-28T12:42:00.000-04:00

We pay the CIA to do our damn dirty work.
If they think torture is the best way, then they ought to do it.
Illegally.
And answer for their bloody war crime.
I believe this provides the proper amount of disincentive for using it.

Rebecca,
there's no need to verify correctness, if you can dump manpower on the issue. Causing chaos and disrupting plans is rather easy. Let's say that the person gives you 101 plans, and that you've got about a 50% chance of having the actual plan among them. Well,you set your 1000 agents to work on bollixing up those 101 plans, and you succeed on maybe 90% of them.

Net, you've probably saved lives.

Now whether this is worth killing yourself over... well, that's the question i want our scumbags to be asking.

Yee-haw!!! Now it's time to crush the Norm Colem...

2009-04-28T12:29:00.000-04:00

Yee-haw!!!

Now it's time to crush the Norm Coleman foot-dragging conspiracy. Let's get those 60 votes working now.

Senator Arlen Spector is no longer a RINO.

2009-04-28T12:22:00.000-04:00

Senator Arlen Spector is no longer a RINO.

Specter intends to switch to Democratic Party

2009-04-28T12:19:00.000-04:00

Specter intends to switch to Democratic Party

Update your Senate rankings. Spector is changing ...

2009-04-28T12:16:00.000-04:00

Update your Senate rankings. Spector is changing to the Democratic Party.

Individuals who claim to know whether or not tortu...

2009-04-28T11:32:00.001-04:00

Individuals who claim to know whether or not torture or harsh interrogation techniques work are lying to themselves. They have truly taken a stance based on their own political biases. Robert Baer, a former CIA case officer is on the record as saying torture is ineffective. While former CIA director Michale Hayden has publicly promoted the effectiveness of torture.

Since we are unlikely to get "torture" experiments ok'ed by any HRB or IRB we cannot state, with any scientific certainty, whether or not torture increases the effectiveness of our intelligence community.

In my view this reason enough to ban the practice-- since we cannot reach any conclusions in regards to the merits of torture. So please, Mike in Maryland and others, let's not get drawn into a debate where we state false conclusions and use "24" as any kind of reference. People who do this come off as grossly misinformed and haughty and arrogant at the same time. Not a good combination.

Irony of ironies It took all of 15 minutes for al...

2009-04-28T11:23:00.000-04:00

Irony of ironies

It took all of 15 minutes for all of Donalds points to be made

Donald,

This was one of Nates better posts. Its best when he looks/crtiques the methodlogy of a poll. Unfortunatly of late he is more inclined to pimp the latest D issues. In Nates defense he has admitted on multiple occassions he is a partisan democrat with some curveball libertarinesque leanings occassionally.

There are some good people here. Markymark is a great example along with others.