Comments on FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Delegate Update, Post-Puerto Rico

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2009-10-09T04:07:05.551-04:00

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2009-09-09T03:52:17.967-04:00

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2009-03-11T04:38:00.001-04:00

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2009-02-12T00:21:00.000-05:00

New POLL by PPP in NC...Obama is only down by 3. M...

2008-06-02T11:57:00.000-04:00

New POLL by PPP in NC...Obama is only down by 3. MCCAIN 43-OBAMA 40-Barr 6

With the hard work for registered new voters, Obama will win NC.

New POLL by PPP in NC...Obama is only down by 3. M...

2008-06-02T11:56:00.000-04:00

New POLL by PPP in NC...Obama is only down by 3. MCCAIN 43-OBAMA 40-Barr 6

With the hard work for registered new voters, Obama will win NC.

Sean, I chuckled at the tweak. Reading months-old ...

2008-06-02T11:16:00.000-04:00

Sean, I chuckled at the tweak. Reading months-old election coverage from anyone could elicit "Nailed it!" from Colbert, but some are particularly egregious, eh?

The race is down to McCain and Obama and as such p...

2008-06-02T04:54:00.000-04:00

The race is down to McCain and Obama and as such people who report on the race will be reporting on what each needs to achieve in order to win. This particular article has nothing to do with McCain and so it focuses on what Obama needs to achieve in order to win, specifically what amount of delegates he needs to justify a victory speech and, more importantly, to prompt Clinton to give a concession speech on tuesday so that party unity will be bolstered.

Anyone complaining about this is gonna have a whole lot of trouble reading political reporting for the next four years or eight.

Anon - First off, I wrote the post, not Nate. So ...

2008-06-02T03:52:00.000-04:00

Anon - First off, I wrote the post, not Nate. So don't blame him. It was a tweak.

Here's the thing. High profile people have to make an effort not just to slap stuff up there willy nilly. The idea about all 55 and all 8 supers going to one candidate was laughable from the getgo. And the morning after he put up those "optimistic" but "not wildly unrealistic" numbers, Joe Scarborough was screaming on Morning Joe how Barone was The Authority on this stuff, and if he said it then it was going to happen, blah blah blah, confronting every guest with, here's what I say, and Michael Barone backs me up!

Barone's writings were used to push the media narrative, that the popular vote is even measurable in a primary season where so many arbitrary choices (open vs. closed, primary vs. caucus, etc.) render moot any comparison to the "one person, one vote" concept of the general election.

And as long as that dishonest concept is alive, it enables Clinton to give permission to her supporters that she-wuz-robbed and to explicitly hold a grudge against Obama. That's just the extortion play for whatever her slate of demands are for conceding.

So getting things wrong like isn't just some mistake-in-a-vacuum. Leveraging one's big name to push an idea, namely that the popular vote is valid and Clinton can win it using non-wildly-optimistic scenarios (like Clinton in Montana by 20%) can deserve a tweak when they are so absurdly wrong and never stood a chance of not being absurdly wrong.

That's where I'm coming from. There's a responsibility for people to use data in support of honest intellectual argument. If you still have hard feelings about it, remember to blame me not Nate.

Did you even read the article? They aren't his tu...

2008-06-02T03:12:00.000-04:00

Did you even read the article? They aren't his turnout projections. They are from Jay Cost at RealClearPolitics. And his projections were made from an "optimistic" pro-Clinton point of view.

"I used Cost's default turnout numbers and estimates of the two-candidate percentages which I consider optimistic from the Clinton point of view but not wildly unrealistic."

But it's kind of funny to see you launching Dick Bennett type attacks, especially when you have been the victim of them in the past.

Honestly, the main stream media has been living in...

2008-06-02T01:29:00.000-04:00

Honestly, the main stream media has been living in delusion for months now out of a desire to appear "nonpartisan" in the nomination battle.

Not just the MSM.

digby has taken this line all along, and lately has ramped it up a notch. Yesterday she put up a post entitled Photo Finish in which she argued that this primary has been incredibly close and that Hillary Clinton has always had a real chance of winning it, so calls for her to drop out as far back as February were ridiculous.

This "analysis" makes a number of mistakes. Virtually nobody was calling for Clinton to drop out, though many were appalled by the tone of her campaign. But those who said she had no path to the nomination as far back as late February were spot on. And reminding us that she was winning contests (digby's big data point) does nothing to address that reality.

In terms of raw numbers, this race is close. But it's been over since February. Both those things are true. Obama supporters do themselves no favors pretending that Clinton didn't garner a large minority of support. And Clinton supporters have done themselves no favors pretending she was still in this for the last two months. This is not a photo finish.

BTW, if there's a "Clinton fan club for numbers geeks" I assume it's been a pretty depressing place for the last eight weeks.

Although plenty of Obama fans hang out here (I'm not one particularly, in fact), this place has always been about the numbers. You tell 'em the truth, Nate, and they they think it's hell.

"One correction...there's only one half of Montana...

2008-06-02T01:18:00.000-04:00

"One correction...there's only one half of Montana, so to speak, right? MT-AL is the only Congressional district."

Actually, from the montana delegate selection plan:

"3. Apportionment of District-Level Delegates and Alternates
a. The district-level delegates and alternates shall be elected by a Presidential preference
primary followed by a post-primary caucus. Montana, being a single congressional district
state, will be broken down into two (2) districts. These districts are formed from the two
previous congressional districts."

there's 10 district level delegates, so each gets 5. Hence, the numbers are accurate.

What stinks about that, though, is it means He's virtually assured of not getting MORE than 9... he'd have to get either 62.5% statewide or 70% in one district to get another delegate.

Anonymous (who is hiding his/her real identity for...

2008-06-02T00:59:00.000-04:00

Anonymous (who is hiding his/her real identity for some strange reason):

The reason why most reputable news sources are no longer talking about Clinton is for the same reason why they are no longer talking about Dodd for President, or Biden or Richardson or Huckabee or Guiliani.

Clinton's run for the presidency is over, so talking about her is no longer news. Hence no coverage. Why talk about something that is not important?

One correction...there's only one half of Montana,...

2008-06-02T00:30:00.000-04:00

One correction...there's only one half of Montana, so to speak, right? MT-AL is the only Congressional district.

Hey anonymous,Nate and Sean are phrasing things in...

2008-06-02T00:13:00.000-04:00

Hey anonymous,

Nate and Sean are phrasing things in terms of what Obama needs because Obama's the one about to win the nomination; that's all. It's not bias, it's reflecting the reality of the race; the number of delegates he needs is much more important than the number of delegates Hillary needs since Obama is pretty much guaranteed to get there, and we're all curious to know exactly when.

It's like in baseball, where it's traditional at the end of the year to give the "magic number" of games that a team needs to clinch its divisional title. No one talks about the magic number for a team that's far behind. Phrasing things in terms of the magic number is not saying you're a fan of that team, it's just saying you know the reality of the race. The remaining delegates are Obama's magic number.

If Hillary starts getting a huge and unexpected swing of supers, I'm sure her delegate count will be plastered all over this site. Until then, these guys are being totally reasonable.

The question of bias is important, and I think it ...

2008-06-02T00:06:00.000-04:00

The question of bias is important, and I think it is very well handled by Nate: he makes his preferences explicit (unlike many pollsters) and tries, as best he can, to use his data objectively. Of course he will fail part of the time (he noticed that both Oregon and Kentucky seem to go off his projection; what he did then was to revise his projection to suit the trend of the polling for Oregon, but he did not do the same for Kentucky - which no doubt a Clintonite would).

However, his great asset is his transparency: the methodology is for all to see and it binds him - to the point that for the last few weeks he has been the most effective supporter of Clinton's electability argument.

Our job is to help him by trying to find biases in the future, but I must say I have deep respect for how Nate deals with this issue right now.

Anon - Welcome to the internet age. Most of the be...

2008-06-02T00:00:00.000-04:00

Anon - Welcome to the internet age. Most of the best sources of information are operated by people who admit to being real people. For instance, the guys over at DCW are so effective because they communicate with their readers, and therefore don't have to scan the whole web themselves. Aloofness is an impediment to good work.

as for the "Obama fan club for numbers geeks" thing... at this point, anyone who can crunch numbers knows Obama's gonna win the nomination. This primary analysis is basically about the dynamic going into the general election. Honestly, the main stream media has been living in delusion for months now out of a desire to appear "nonpartisan" in the nomination battle. Note, however, that Pablano has largely kept his work here to statistical analysis, although he's done it in a slightly more personal way than you'd see from a major news organization. That's blogging.

Finally, keep in mind that Pablano is doing this on his free time -he's not getting paid. So he's allowed to be honest.

mark - so Obama's the likely Democratic nominee an...

2008-06-01T23:36:00.000-04:00

mark - so Obama's the likely Democratic nominee and all statistical analysis on this site should be geared towards whether it helps or hurts him? What about in the general election? It's okay to assess everything in terms of how it furthers electing Obama?

My question is simply whether this site aims to be a respected non-partisan source of analysis or an Obama fan club for numbers geeks. Right now it is clearly the latter.

Seems to me that Barone deserves to have his credi...

2008-06-01T23:34:00.000-04:00

Seems to me that Barone deserves to have his credibility slapped around by any blog or person that places a premium on good reporting. Barone is one of the worst propagandists in the establishment media.

Someone, Russert I think, said he knows of a super...

2008-06-01T23:24:00.000-04:00

Someone, Russert I think, said he knows of a super or two who intend to endorse the SECOND the polls close!

To anonymous: Okay, you think it's unfair that Nate is listing the number Obama now needs? You want an equal showing for Hillary?

Sure, no problem: If she gets 14 more in Montana and South Dakota, she'll need nearly all of the remaining superdelegates to overtake Obama. In fact, even if a flood of superdelegates came out and endorsed her tomorrow, and only a fraction came out for him, he'd still win. Happy?

That back-handed slap to Michael Barone is uncalle...

2008-06-01T23:12:00.000-04:00

That back-handed slap to Michael Barone is uncalled for. He simply wrote that PR bosses tended to award all delegates to one candidate, and that was before PR decided to hold a primary instead of a caucus (which, as you know, is much easier to manipulate). Barone even noted a week later that since Obama got the PR gov's endorsement, he was likely to get some delegates regardless. His turnout estimate was from 2 months ago, when RCP was also assuming a 1 million turnout.

Hillary who?

2008-06-01T23:09:00.000-04:00

Hillary who?

Sean -I felt like I've read a stronger statement s...

2008-06-01T23:02:00.000-04:00

Sean -

I felt like I've read a stronger statement somewhere, but here's one reference to Schweitzer looking to what the voters of Montana do before he votes:

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2008/02/21/bnews/br18.txt

Umm, perhaps becuase he's the freaking nominee and...

2008-06-01T22:37:00.000-04:00

Umm, perhaps becuase he's the freaking nominee and we all know it and it's time to move on.

Face it, most of us, especially stats guys - know the odds.

And in that, we're more worried about when we can start the general election polling than ever thinking that Hillary can come back. She'd have to win something near 85% of all remaining super delegates to do it. This thing is over.