OK, here's that Rasmussen poll on the Massachusetts Senate special election. It shows Martha Coakley leading Scott Brown 50-41, a 9-point margin, eerily replicating the expectations of the Democratic strategist who told Dave Weigel: “I’d guess that, being Rasmussen, it’ll have a 10-point race.”
Although a 9-point margin -- or closer -- seems entirely possible to me, Rasmussen has arrived at that number in something of a strange way. It's pretty easy to back out Rasmussen's turnout demographics, and they're showing an electorate which is 21 percent Republican, 52 percent Democrat, and 27 percent other. Although there are lots of different ways to ask about party identification, typically that's not what we see in elections in the Bay State, as the number of independents is usually much higher (43 percent of Massachusetts voters were independent/other in 2008, and 51 percent are registered as independents). They're also showing an electorate that is 39 percent liberal, 34 percent conservative, and 27 percent moderate; that compares to 2008 exit poll demographics of 31 percent liberal, 19 percent conservative, and 49 percent moderate.
So Rasmussen's theory on this election, basically, is that the people in the middle won't bother to show up; there are many fewer independents and many fewer moderates in their sample than you usually get in Massachusetts. Instead, it will be a race between the bases. That could be a good theory, or it could be an artifact of their sample design -- one thing that generally seems true of Rasmussen and some of the IVR pollsters is that they capture a hyper-informed and hyper-partisan electorate. (To wit: Rasmussen shows Coakley getting just 21 percent of the "other" vote -- but 24 percent of the Republican vote.)
By the way, that's not necessarily meant to imply that Rasmussen is lowballing Coakley's number. It could be that they're low on Brown instead. Or that they have two wrongs which more or less make a right. Or that they have the race completely nailed. Or that they've completely flubbed it up.
But, if I had to set an over-under on this race, it would be above 9 points for Coakley, especially given the earlier polling. If Coakley were to hold the 58 percent she got in the Suffolk and WNEC polls, for instance, at Brown got all the undecideds, that would imply a 16-point margin of victory. Or, if you take Rasmussen's 9-point margin and add 4-5 points to it, which has been roughly the magnitude of their house effect thus far this year, that would imply a 13-14 point win.
So something in the broad range of about 15 points seems about right -- as an over-under. But it's also an over-under with an exceptionally high error margin, because special elections are so difficult to predict. A 30-point drubbing by Coakley wouldn't surprise me; nor would a race that kept us up late on Election Night.
And frankly, if I were either party and my internal polling showed a 15-point margin, I'd still be thinking about putting some money into this race. Special elections in many ways resemble presidential primaries, and polls are off in primaries by an average of about 7 points. That would imply something like a 3-5 percent chance of a Brown victory, which feels about right. But considering how consequential that 5 percent could be -- the probable collapse of health care reform -- it's something worth hedging against if you're the Democrats, or taking a flier on if you're the G.O.P.
1.05.2010
Rassachusetts: Why a Poll May be Terribly, Horribly Wrong -- And Why Democrats Should be Worried Anyway
by Nate Silver @ 10:45 AM...see also massachusetts, rasmussen, special elections
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114 comments
Nate:
This post could basically boil down to: "Scott could be right, Scott could be wrong, I have no idea."
Although a 9-point margin -- or closer -- seems entirely possible to me, Rasmussen has arrived at that number in something of a strange way. It's pretty easy to back out Rasmussen's turnout demographics, and they're showing an electorate which is 21 percent Republican, 52 percent Democrat, and 27 percent other. Although there are lots of different ways to ask about party identification, typically that's not what we see in elections in the Bay State, as the number of independents is usually much higher.
Do you have any data here, especially from midterm elections or competitive statewide elections? Landslides for Teddy would appear to skew things since Republicans would most likely say why bother to vote.
They're also showing an electorate that is 39 percent liberal, 34 percent conservative, and 27 percent moderate; that compares to 2008 exit poll demographics of 31 percent liberal, 19 percent conservative, and 49 percent moderate.
Apples and kiwis. Rasmussen is using computer telephone polling which appears to eliminate the shy tory factor while exit polling is pretty well established to grossly undercount conservatives. A better comparison would be to Rasmussen's prior polling in the state.
Bart,
Personally, I think the model that Scott has of the electorate here is probably quite wrong -- but that their "call" could be perfectly reasonable in spite of that.
Closed primaries?
Wouldn't a Brown victory just force the House to pass the Senate bill?
I've been looking at this poll most of the morning. Many people say "Democrats should be worried", and I bet they are. (OTOH, when are they not? :-)
But I think it may mean Brown is toast. He wins the Unenrolled by 3-to-1 and he's still 9 points down? Where's his upside?
Bryan,
Oops, Mass. has a semi-closed primary, but one which seems to give independents a good amount of latitude; I've deleted the reference.
Y'know Nate, I'm an independent, heading off to vote this afternoon. I had been ticked enough about the current health care bill to cast a protest vote for Brown, who I think would make an appalling Senator. And I probably would have told a pollster this if they'd called.
I think you're probably right that Ramussen's way off, we usually get about 20% for the GOP candidate, unless the Republican is a social liberal.
But we've come frighteningly close to stupid decisions through protest votes before (we nearly abolished the income tax once), and your post has persuaded me to vote for Coakley, who I dislike, but think would make a merely bad Senator, rather than a terrible one. Thank you for your timely warning.
In the unlikely case Coakley were to lose and Democrats could no longer round up 60 votes in the Senate for health care, it seems to me overwhelmingly likely that the House would just pass the Senate bill as-is, thereby eliminating the need for the Senate to have any more votes on it.
You know, I was a Mass resident for 18 years... And despite my independent leanings, I still wouldn't have voted against Kerry or Teddy for Senate. They're just good men.
And I'll also tell you, I didn't think the polling was this close (within 20 points). If it was more than 20 points, I either wouldn't vote, or vote for Joe Kennedy.
But, you know, Coakley's good. Brown is good too. Both born and raised in Massachusetts, with a history in Mass Politics. I think...I'd end up voting for Brown, if I was still there.
A nice, Moderate Republican Senator would do wonders for bipartisanship in the Senate. And I don't like the changing the law stunt they pulled...twice.
Part of Rasmussen's findings may be because Brown has been campaigning while Coakley went on vacation and refused to debate Brown. That arrogance may not have gone over too well with Indis.
Another variable to consider which did not show up in Rasmussen's polling is that there is a libertarian by the name of Joseph Kennedy in the race. How many brain dead Dems will actually pull the lever for the libertarian thinking that they are voting for a Kennedy?
Interestingly, it appears that Coakley has changed her mind and will now debate Brown IF Kennedy is allowed to join. Apparently, Coakley wants to make sure her voters know that the libertarian is not one of THE Kennedys. I wonder what her internal polling is showing?
I don't think special elections like these are predictable. Turn out is a total crap shoot. Turn out is based on a poll and not on any previous performance.
Elections like these are won on the ground. I am guessing the Republican has no ground game (get out the vote) at all. Its just not realistic to think he has a chance.
I may live in NH but I work in Mass and I am still laughing at a 31% conservative electorate for Massachusetts (that's higher than NH's by the way!).
If we look at the last house special election in Massachusetts when Marty Meehan stepped down (I think it was in 2007?), in what is considered the most GOP friendly area of the state, the GOP candidate lost by 6%. I'm going off memory but that was the Niki Tsongas vs. Ogonowiski race.
I'm saying the 5th is the most GOP friendly because it was the last to have a GOP rep in 1994 Peter something or other won there, it's also the area of the state GOP governors like Celluci, Romney, etc used to win the state. So even if he say there is a net 5% GOP swing in the country and state (that's what Rass' electorate composition is saying) the GOP candidate would have still lost the most friendly district by 1%.
Now remember this is ignoring all the Democratic heartlands of Cambridge, Boston (Sufolk county) the cape, and the north shore, yet the GOP couldn't win this race if you increased their vote by 5%! Also remember in Massachusetts the most likely to vote (which tracks closely with education levels) are the most liberal people in the state, since Mass has the nation's 9th highest college graduate levels, and a large percentage of these are actual educators, since Mass is number three in the percentage of people employed by universities.
I would write that this Rasmussen poll is questionable, but then i would be repeating myself. My general rule on Rass is ignore all state and opinion polls by him. His Prez election numbers are solid everything else is garbage. 9% with a margin of error of 3% = 11-12% in my book. That will be my wager 11-12% Coakley victory!
@Pat
Brown is NOT a moderate Jack Robinson who he beat in the primary was. Brown is running on stopping a 60 democratic majority, blocking healthcare, is anti-stimulus, anti-EFCA, against repeal of DOMA, etc. He is only willing to support Obama in Afghanistan after of course he trashed his deliberation process. Robinson ran on a return of Rockefeller Republicanism, his platform was to work with the Dems on social policy, but a return to a more Reaganeque economic policy, supporting Obama in war, and trying to tone down level of discourse. See who the GOP picked.
By the way I read both these candidates platforms in the Boston Herald, and I assure you I'm not giving a negative spin on Brown's platform, he is running as the "filibuster vote" and is more conservative on his issues stances than Judd Gregg the most conservative Republican in the NorthEast. Please check out his policy stances yourself, and then explain to me how he is a moderate? This is also why he has no chance in Massachusetts, legislative picks are the most ideological picks a voter makes, Massachusetts will not pick a very conservative Senator, even in a special election PERIOD! Does anyone here want to argue that if Baily-Hutchinson steps down in Texas that a liberal democrat would win there? I'm not speaking of ANY Democrat (I mean Chet Edwards would have "a chance") I'm speaking of a Austin Texas liberal. This is the type of upset we would be talking about.
Dopper,
You analysis of the Cape is incorrect. It (the 10th congressional district) is actually the most conservative area of the state with a cook PVI of only D+5
Last summer, Gallup had MA party self identification at 60% Dem and 26% GOP.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122003/Political-Party-Affiliation-States-Blue-Red-Far.aspx
In comparison, Rasmussen has more Indis and fewer in the main parties. It does not appear that Rasmussen is undercounting Indis. Rather, this appears to be consistent with the expansion of folks self identifying as Indi in his national polling.
I strongly suspect that Rasmussen sees a surge of conservative Indi voters who are saying a pox on both parties.
This would be consistent with the NBC News/Wall Street Journal polling showing that the Tea Party (if it were a party) has a higher approval rating than either major party.
It will be interesting to see if MA's voters in the special election have the same demographics as VA and NJ.
Does anyone know when the new senator from Mass (whoever that turns out to be) will be sworn in? The upcoming Senate votes on HCR may be done with by then, and this election may not matter for HCR.
Though it will matter for everything else, of course, since the obstructionist Republicans have decided that nothing passes the Senate without several 60$ majority votes first.
Dopper,
Brown is a moderate Republican. Key word there...Republican.
Why? He's pro-choice, and semi-pro gay marriage. (AKA, he believes it's between a man and a woman, but thinks people have the right to choose via their elected representatives).
He couldn't be a moderate republican and be for this health care package. No other Republican is. If he was for this particular package, he'd be...a liberal. Or a Democrat.
Bart, since you brought up Rasmussen, do you have that link I asked for to a Ras poll from Dec of '07 that accurately predicted the Democratic presidential and congressional landslide of Nov '08?
Failing that, do you have links for Ras polling in Dec '07 or Jan '08 that predicted the outcome of the Jan - March Republican primaries? (That should be easier -- all known quantities, all votes to be had within only a few months.)
Or how about the Ras poll from Mar of '08 that accurately predicted Democratic enthusiasm and turnout for the Nov presidential election? (Another easy one, simple enthusiasm and issue polling.)
Maybe a series of Ras polls from any time in '07 or '08 that predicted the results of the series of special elections that were held those years, all of which went to the Dems? (Local congressional polling, small districts, should be a snap.)
Just curious to see how well Ras did in these situations. Not how well he did compared to anyone else -- just how well he did, since, as we all know, he never errs.
There are three candidates
Brown -- Republican
Coakley -- Democratic
Kennedy -- Liberty*
*Yes, Liberty. Welcome to Massachusetts ballot access laws. Borwn is on the Libertarian Association of Massachusetts State Committee, but running as "Libertarian" was not a possible option.
Pat,
A pro-choice stance does not a moderate make. And moderates/pseudo-conservatives can support weakish incrementalist steps to things like HCR. Look at Nelson, Bayh, Cao, Landrieu, Lieberman, etc.
Incidentally, arguing that marriage equality is wrong, but if it's made legal in a certain way then it's legal...that's not a pro-marriage equality position.
Tell you what, Bart.
For every percentage point CLOSER than 9 this special election ends up being, I will donate $50 to the Colorado candidate of YOUR choice.
But for every percentage point BEYOND 9 that Coakley ends up winning by, you will donate $25 to the local candidate of MY choice. Just $25.
Deal?
(Yes, we can round up or down. I'm flexible. Or raise the stakes, too. Let me know.)
Rasmussen's not always the swiftest when it comes to understanding the statistics and logic that underlie their own polling practices.
Sorry for the repost, but two MA articles in one day! I'm only so lucky every once in a while. So here is what I left at the bottom of the last thread.
I've been waiting for this thread. As far as the Tea Party goes, it does fly in my area of MA, but in insignificantly small circles. I also have yet to see a Coakley sign in someones yard, but have seen at least ten to twenty Brown signs. All this means, people aren't taking it that seriously. Maybe some Brown supporters are, but lets take a look at the numbers here, shall we?
Straight from wikipedia:
First, # of votes total from the primary
D – 664,195
R – 162,706
But that's not enough, Brown got 89% of the vote, Coakley only got 47%, so next let's look at individual totals
Coakley – 310,227
Brown – 145,465
What this tells me, is that in a special election where turnouts are usually low, the Democrats in general have an overwhelming 4 to 1 advantage in voters motivated enough to vote in the primary! But even if you decide that Brown will take all other voters motivated enough for the Republican primary and Coakley loses all other Democratic voters from the primary, Brown still loses by almost a 2 to 1 margin.
In other words, it just isn't going to happen. I'm not rich, but I'll take a small wager with anyone who feels otherwise.
_____________
I should also say that I don't think the turnout for the election will be much different than the primaries.
Also, Brown does have a GOTV machine working, it's a couple buddies of mine who get drunk, wave signs and yell at cars on the corner of a street. It worked well for McCain too.
Hey, does anyone know if libertarian Joe Kennedy has previously been on the ballot alongside Teddy? Just curious if MA voters have grown accustomed to "the other Kennedy" over the years.
Just John:
I have no earthly idea whether Rasmussen's take on a low turnout MA special election is correct. Predicting who will actually show up in such elections is a crapshoot. I believe the primary turnout was very light, so the general election could be turned by one particular subgroup showing up in greater numbers.
I never wager on elections like these, but if I had to, I would probably put the money down on the Dem. A GOP victory in deepest blue MA would be a political earthquake.
Jesse said...Straight from wikipedia:
First, # of votes total from the primary
D – 664,195
R – 162,706
But that's not enough, Brown got 89% of the vote, Coakley only got 47%, so next let's look at individual totals
Coakley – 310,227
Brown – 145,465
Brown had no serious competition to get voters out. Moreover, are Indis allowed to vote in primaries in MA?
Thanks Bart, it was worth a shot... I wonder how high I'd have to make the spread to attract a sucker, I mean, bettor, yeah. 13? 15? 18?
Bart - in Massachusetts, they are "Unenrolleds" not "Independents" (because we have a party named the "Independent Party").
Unenrolled voters may vote in any primary they choose - essentially, by taking a ballot you enroll in a party, then you un-enroll on the way out of the polling place.
Nate, I write this as someone who has been a fan for a long time. You either need to stop writing about Rassmussen or stop going out of your way to avoid a critical examination of their methodology.
What you're doing now with bits like this:
"By the way, that's not necessarily meant to imply that Rasmussen is lowballing Coakley's number. It could be that they're low on Brown instead. Or that they have two wrongs which more or less make a right. Or that they have the race completely nailed. Or that they've completely flubbed it up."
...after you disassemble their deeply flawed demographic model is only hurting your credibility.
If you can't cut your personal feelings towards Rassmussen with analyzing the data, then let it go.
Bart,
yes, Indis are allowed to pick their primary.
It's worth noting that Rasmussen's final poll in the nov 2009 Virginia Governor's race underpredicted the margin of the Republican candidate's victory. McDonnell won by over 17 percent, and Rasmussen had him up by just 13.
The same thing in the New Jersey race: Republican Chris Chrisie won by 4.3 and in Rasmussen's last poll he led by 3.
John - as far as I know, this is the first time Joe (the Libertarian) Kennedy has run for any political office.
Also as far as I know, Rasmussen's poll did not include him by name (he was lumped in as "other").
Bart DePalma said...
"Brown had no serious competition to get voters out."
A rare good point from Bart. While a Coakley win is extremely likely, the primary turnout really says very little about the general election except that a) The competitive Democratic race attracted more voters and b) There are far more registered Democrats than registered Republicans in MA.
If Brownie were to win, he would need to pull a large number of non-Coakley Democrats as well as locking up all Republicans (including the moderates) and crushing Coakley among unenrolleds.
Somebody on these boards keeps demanding to see a Rasmussen Poll from 07 predicting a democratic congressional landslide. Well, here it is: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/mood_of_america_archive/generic_congressional_ballot/april_2007/democrats_lead_by_10_in_congressional_ballot_poll
All it took is googling "rasmussen tracking poll history congress." Remember folks, the internet is your friend.
Jacob,
While I understand from a point of view from out of state, polling may have shown a competitive Democratic primary, the in state coverage that I saw all portrayed Coakley as our next Senator. And I watch more than most average citizens would.
I think you underestimate the predictive nature of the primary to give a general guide for the election.
I am beginning to enjoy Nate's fetish for caveats. At the end of the day, Nate will be, in some sense, 100% correct.
I think Rasmussen is right that independents generally don't show up for special elections. And he is right that the Republicans will be more fired up than the Democrats (more than 78 v 73 found by the WNEC poll).
I'll be shocked if Brown can win. If Brown can get within 5 points, Democrats should be terrified for November.
Thanks Steve.
Julia-those were high-profile races in swing-ish states with national attention. Rasmussen needed to nail those to maintain his reputation of accuracy, and he did his homework well. He's actually pretty good at that, as anyone can see from November 2008.
I would imagine this time, he's trying to drive the narrative to maintain anti-HCR sentiment, then shrug his shoulders and mumble something about "special elections" when the Democrat wins by 20. Or hope people forget. Plus there's still time for him to get a better poll out there if he so desires.
Excuse me sir, did Rasmussen himself tell you what percentage of R/D/I was in the poll? If not, your analysis is flawed, as there are practically an infinite number of ways you can split the R D and I and still get the same topline number.
George - according to the SecState's office, Massachusetts does too have a "Libertarian" party.
Now, since I know you have personal experience with this, I don't want to doubt you, but is the SecState's website wrong?
Well, it was only a matter of time before Rasmussen's partisan logic was picked apart.
Sucks to be him.
Hey Nate, did Rasmussen take that quote of yours off his site?
I can't find it any longer. :P
Mr. Silver, you claim to know what the partisan ID split of the poll is. Did you ask Mr. Rasmussen himself or are you just guessing?
I just calculated the numbers with a partisan ID composition of 26% Republican, 53% Democrat, and 21% Other. This gave me a top line number of 50% for Coakley, and 41% for Brown.
There is no way you can know for sure what the partisan ID split that he used was without directly asking him, as I have shown that there are multiple splits that you could conjure up and still get the same topline number.
On Rasmussen bias, the optimal strategy - were someone R biased - would be to predict consistently republican leaning results more than a few weeks prior to an election, and then on the eve of the election or just before rejig the relevant turnout model to more closely resemble what would occur. This is a testable hypothesis, one question would be did Rasmussen historically get two-ten month predictions more wrong than others in a biased way? If not, we should stop with the "are-they-biased" meme. If so, it is good evidence of deliberate model-assumption manipulation.
Bart DePalma said...;.
"Do you have any data here, especially from midterm elections or competitive statewide elections? Landslides for Teddy would appear to skew things since Republicans would most likely say why bother to vote."
Wouldn't every Senate election for Teddy have happened alongside an election for president or governor? I doubt his landslides would have a huge effect when there was another major race to vote for at the same time.
The Dems have such a big advantage yet Romney managed to pull it off in 2002.
Cloakley has got to be the most boring uninspiring candidate ever. Brown has got that Reagan quality. Look at his commercials, one invoking JFK and another with his pickup truck, and one with a snowball fight with his daughters. How can you not like the guy?
Cloakley's supporters will be in a coma by election day.
Hey John-
I'll take your 2:1 @ a 9pt spread, if still available. Surprised more people don't bet on this stuff.
My guess is 13 is about right, but there's still 2 weeks to go and seems like some real energy for Brown.
@Kenny Powers
Romney wasn't running for the Senate in '02. When he did run for the Senate in a Republican landslide year, he was creamed.
Yes, states heavily dominated by one party may often elect a governor of the other party to "balance things out" i.e. California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Kansas, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Wyoming currently.
But Bay Staters electing a conservative Republican to block programs they agree with in the US Senate? Not very likely.
Caokley is indeed boring. Hard to imagine she inspires anyone. Just checking her Facebook...snoozefest. She pushes the issues of cutting taxes and supporting the military. Huh? Is she a Democrat? Shouldn't she be talking about how great HC reform is?
This race has about as much "upside" for the GOP as a Senate race in Alabama or Oklahoma has for Democrats. Virtually none.
If disillusioned Democrats and liberal independents stay home it might be close, but if the race is really a 15 point margin, it's just not going to break for Brown and every penny the GOP spends there now is one penny they won't have for races they could possibly win later in CT, PA, NV, and elsewhere.
So, why bother to profile this race and give Democrats some play when they inevitably win?
"A nice, Moderate Republican Senator would do wonders for bipartisanship in the Senate."
What planet have you been living on? There's NO SUCH THING as bi-partisanship in the Senate. Republicans killed it about the time they decided to go to the nuclear option to force Bush's justices through.
I agree totally with Michelle Malkin on this: "God save us from bi-partisanship." Only sensible thing she's ever said in her life!
What we need are a LOT more liberals who will ram through liberal legislation, just like conservatives do when they have a majority.
And you never saw any so-called "moderates" bleating about a "lack of bi-partisanship" when Bush and the Republicans were forcing through his radical agenda! It's only when Democrats take control and actually try to do the things they campaigned on that "moderates" start babbling about how "partisan" everything is!
It's all Republicans faults that Congress is "partisan"! Democrats simply aren't partisan enough to get anything done in the face of radical right-wing obstructionism!
@JT
Somebody on these boards keeps demanding to see a Rasmussen Poll from 07 predicting a democratic congressional landslide
Thanks! I was specifically hoping for one from Dec of '07, but April of '07 will do for now. I am curious for people to see what he was saying once the campaign season was starting to get under way.
Since Ras was showing Dems so far ahead, as early as April of '07, I wonder why there were so many Republicans thinking they were going to make progress in the '08 elections?
I'd still like Ras defenders to show me the Ras polls from early in the last campaign season, but this is a good start. From here, it should be easy to prove Rasmussen's dependability.
See? I'm really helping you guys.
@ Kenny Powers: Look at his commercials, one invoking JFK and another with his pickup truck...
It's funny how the GOP never stops thinking "pickup trucks" are somehow going to be pure electoral gold.
It's like they learned nothing at all from Fred Thompson's brief, somnolent, dreadful campaign ;-)
Here you go shrinkers,
Rasmussen had just about exactly the same 10 point plus-dem congressioal margin in mid-December of 2007:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Democrats_ten_points_ahead_when_matched_1214.html
@Cugel
So, why bother to profile this race and give Democrats some play when they inevitably win?
I could see the Republicans pumping lots of money into Brown's campaign, even knowing the odds were against him. A) if it works and he wins, great! B) if he loses, they'll say, "See? Even when we try, a moderate can't win. Any wonder we're going with the teabaggers? The real problem is Brown wasn't conservative enough!!!"
This will be the excuse when Brown loses, you know.
@JT
Here you go shrinkers,
Thanks JT! Awesome!
Now, let's consider whether anything changed during the campaign season that led Rasmussen into his Mar '08 statements that the Dems were demoralized, and that the PUMAs were going to split the Democratic vote. And whether anything else happened to alter his perception back from that. And whether any of this says anything about whether public opinion can actually shift (more than once?) in the space of a few months.
cbactuary-
You're on. Stakes OK for you at 50/25 or is 20/10 more reasonable? I'm open to either.
We will round up or down; i.e. I lose with an 8.3 margin but win with a 9.7.
Give me a holler when you're ready.
OMG does Martha ever say anything?
Look at her web site... on the ISSUES:
Equal Rights: "fair treatment"
Economy: "tackle the economic crisis head on"
Supporting Seniors: "fighting for the needs of senior citizens"
Honoring our Veterans: "brave men and women"
Middle East: "ways for people of the Middle East to live peacefully and prosper"
She says NOTHING and is hoping to get in on the DEM label. Shameful. An insult to the voters. But hey, if she wins people can save money on their Ambien purchases.
Wouldn't a Brown victory just force the House to pass the Senate bill?
Or,it would give the Senate Democrats a chance to add some goodies to their bill (Public Option,Medicare for those 55 or older,moving up the start date a year or two) and then pass it under the Reconciliation process.The House would then have the option of choosing which of the two Senate bills to pass.
Actually,I find this scenario so attractive I'd like to see it happen even if Coakley wins.
P.S. Olbermann said yesterday that there has been talk the Democrats might eliminate the Congressional Committee process (and its consequent Republican showboating) by having the Senate and House pass the same bill.
John-
50/25 is cool.
@Pat
Yes your correct about the 10th. The cape has some wealthier areas that are fiscally conservative and vote Republican, when I said the Dem heartland and mentioned the cape, I should have said P Town, Martha's Vineyard and not included the whole cape. The Cape has both some of the most liberal and most fiscally conservative (not really socially conservative) areas of the state.
But if you think Brown is a moderate because he is pro-choice you must think Ron Paul is a moderate because he was anti Iraq war. Browns argument for being pro-choice are along libertarian lines, not from the left. So it this case that doesn't make him a moderate, anymore than Ron Paul's anti foreign interventionism made him leftist.
I agree, Brown is not a moderate. Just compare him with say Collins/Snowe, who are typical moderate Repubs. Now understand he's running in the most liberal state. And his major plank is killing HC bill. There's no doubt, him winning would be a major coup.
I still will argue that looking at the last special election in one of the more Republican areas of the state (for Massachusetts) with a candidate backed heavily by the GOP (he's the brother of a 9-11 pilot) the GOP just doesn't have the numbers here in Mass. No amount of spin can change the facts on the ground. If the Dems were worried we would see Obama who is very popular in Mass, and the Dem machine cranked up. If the GOP was really optimistic they would be dumping more money into Mass. I just don't see an upset here.
Coakley is boring by the way because when your in the lead you first of all do no harm. And second unlike her competition most people in Massachusetts are familiar with her, so she doesn't need to"introduce" herself. She running as a young democratic standard bearer in a very democratic state, she doesn't need to run as a shake things up candidate. Brown on the other hand does, so he has too be all energy.
The fact that we are even discussing the pessimistic chances of a Democrat hold in the Bay State is proof positive that the Midterms are going to be a Bloodbath.
This is Deval Patrick's state -- he is BHO's homey for crissakes!
Glen Beck is being given more and more play in the legit media and more and more swing voters are sampling him. He preaches a very dark, conspiratorial view of the Obama adminstration and it seems to be gaining traction.
A rout is building. Almost all the folks in the middle who supported the Dems and Obama in 2008 are now realizing the extent of the deception foisted on them by Obama, the Dems and the Media. These folks intend retribution. Couple them with the disaffected eldery, and the hardcore GOP opposition and you have nearly 60% of the vote disinclined to vote for the Democrats.
Passing healtcare reform will only exacerbate the problem and will sow the further seeds of Obama's own defeat in 2012 -- if he chooses to run or survives HRC's or Howard Dean's primary challengs.
petekent01 (on twitter)
Cugel sounds like the typical misinformed progressive.
What we need are a LOT more liberals who will ram through liberal legislation, just like conservatives do when they have a majority.
Thats simply not true at all. Name one piece of major legislation with a conservative leaning the GOP ramrodded thru Congress when they had a majority? The answer is NONE because the Democrats could filibuster anything of that nature. All of the controversial legislation passed under Bush Jr was with the help enough moderate Democrats to overcome a filibuster. If you don't believe that, you should study up more on actual historical facts instead of beleiveing everything you read on Daily Kos to be true.
It's all Republicans faults that Congress is "partisan"! Democrats simply aren't partisan enough to get anything done in the face of radical right-wing obstructionism!
Give me a break. The Democrats used obstructionism numerous times during Bush Jrs 8 years to block legislation they did not approve of. You are only displaying your ignorance if you insinuate otherwise.
I can understand why progressive do not like Rasmussen. The fact that he does not oversample Democrats like most liberal news organizations means his results are more accurate. When those results are not favorable to progressives, they just resort to their standard tactics and try to nuke the messenger versus taking the time to understand the significance of the message.
A big chunk of the people who don't like the health care bill, don't like it because it's not liberal enough. Don't be deceived by the health care polls. It will be a non-issue a year from now. The Republicans can run on a repeal but that is fraught with peril. There are too many things in the bill people actually want. And once the economy comes around people just won't be as angry.
What's more these gains by the GOP are based on thinking that the GOP is not fractured like it is now. The tea baggers will reduce the gains greatly. The American people just don't want to repeal Medicare, Social Security, FHA loans, Student Loans, Farm Subsidies and on and on. People like government a lot more than they have been led to believe.
I love how the Republicans did their damndest to increase government surveillance and police power to unprecedented levels (and succeeded), rolled back constitutional protections for individuals against the government as much as they could get away with until even solidly conservative Anthony Kennedy thought they were going too far, and its f-ing health care that's got all these people worried about government conspiracies and power. Republicans did everything they could to expand government power at the expense of individual liberty, and now they've got the cojones to talk about freedom and liberty, and some people actually buy it.
In the words of Dr. Nick, what a country.
Ah... Pete has returned! Now ican reprise one of my favorite hobbies from last year:
Pete's Apocryphal Poetry:
midterms are going to be a Bloodbath
Glen Beck is being given more and more play
dark, conspiratorial, gaining traction
passing healthcare reform will sow the further seeds of Obama's own defeat
in 2012
a rout is building
for crissakes!
I have a sister who lives in Boston and will be voting in the senate race for Coakly. But she has emailed me twice and called me once in the last week to tell me how boring Martha is and there is no energy for her candidacy. If a blizzard hits MA on Jan 19th Brown will get within low single digits. My perception is (being an evil right winger that I'am) is that Coakly is playing it correct by not going one on one in a debate. Only somthing bad can happen...nothing good for her candidacy.
To PK
For starters Patrick is not BHO's Hommy
second look at Cq's senate races. true they arnt good for the dems but they (with a few exemptions like ND and DE)break down by region Dems winning the west coast and North East the GoP winning the south and wast. the mid west splits and will probaly decide how 2010 goes ( I predict Dems 55 Reps 43 ind. 2)
Fun Fact: this race will give Mass there first female senator
Rasmussen Reports question: “Who do you favor for U.S. Senate? Scott Brown, Martha Coakley, Some other candidate, or Not Sure?”
I’m still waiting to see an actual poll that asks the question correctly, so that we can see exactly how much impact the Kennedy name has on the low-IQ Mass. Dems: “Who do you favor for U.S. Senate? Scott Brown, Martha Coakley, Joseph Kennedy, or Not Sure?”
If it had been worded that way - like they’ll see it on the ballot come Jan. 19th - I’m guessing it would have looked more like Brown-41, Coakley-35,Kennedy-17, Not Sure-5.
Of course I could be wrong - but wouldn’t it be nice to know? Come on, Rasmussen - I thought you were a professional pollster? Leaving off a candidate’s name, when his name is KENNEDY in Massachusetts? Seriously?
It's always comforting to get Pete's take, because in order to know what IS going to happen, all I have to do is figure out the precise opposite of what he says. Ah. I do feel better, thanks.
BREAKING: Byron Dorgan to resign.
Criminy!
Yeah, filistro, I just saw that too. Best source I know of, in case anyone is curious, is Campaign Diaries.
Cool cbactuary, we're on. I would wish you good luck, but nah. See you in another thread.
For those who think lefties cannot be as nuts as Michelle Bachmann, I present, Ralph "the fruit loop" Nader:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4211301
@filistro
BREAKING: Byron Dorgan to resign.
Well. If I'm right, and the Dems pick up 1 or 2 Senate seats elsewhere, that's okay. If I'm wrong, then I think we're about to see the end of the filibuster -- because otherwise, if the Repubs win a seat or 2, they will simply prevent any legislation from moving in the Senate, even stuff they support.
Example: there was one bill (I don't remember what it was, I'm sure someone else will) that had to pass a cloture vote -- it passed 60 - 39 (all the Republicans who were present voted against cloture). On the actual up-or-down vote, it passed 98 - 2.
Republicans are simply slowing things down, for no reason other than to slow things down, even the few things they intend to vote for.
It's time to stop their nonsense.
@Henry,
Yeah, Nader is a dork and a jerk and is about as useful as -- well, as something completely useless. He had one good idea like 40 years ago (okay, maybe two), and he should have bowed out gracefully after that.
On the other hand, since he's not an elected official (despite his best efforts), I can't compare him to Bachmann's crazy juice. Conspiracy theorists are a dime a dozen. But a US Representative who talks about "death panels" and who asks for investigations into which of our congresspeople are "unAmerican" and who has is actually a birther -- well, that's the looniest f'ing thing I've ever heard of.
Richard said...I love how the Republicans did their damndest to increase government surveillance and police power to unprecedented levels (and succeeded), rolled back constitutional protections for individuals against the government as much as they could get away with until even solidly conservative Anthony Kennedy thought they were going too far, and its f-ing health care that's got all these people worried about government conspiracies and power.
Let's see...
The GOP would spy on, kill, capture and interrogate al Qaeda terrorists like the Crotch Bomber, while sparing American citizens from government mandates, higher premiums and taxes imposed by Obamacare.
The Dems can and have done just the opposite.
I can live with going to the voters with that contrast.
I love Martha Coakley and am very excited that this smart, classy women is going to be our next senator. No signs? Drive west on Route Two through Concord and look at the one on the corner of route 62.
I think there are many women like myself (I know lots of them) who are independent/liberal leaning--who may have voted for Romney--but will NEVER AGAIN get fooled by some Republican pretending to be a moderate and then getting elected and trashing abortion rights, gay marriage, etc. across the country.
The Boston Globe is coming out with a poll as well as PPP.
Bart…
But people are smarter than you are. Sarah Palin got your pants all wet and now you can’t see anything that isn’t teabag-tainted. Probably fewer than half of one percent of the world sees things as you do. Don’t believe me? Just see how the teabaggers do this election year, starting in the GOP primaries.
The comments here offer a perfect example of what Raspublican is doing. He comes up with typically GOP-whacked numbers and all the junior spinners start up their clamor. Some people are dumb enough to fall for spin, but the percentage gets lower all the time. Eventually Raspublican (and Sarah and Michelle and Bart De Palma) will be shouting to themselves in an empty room.
Bart, I know you’re a cheapskate of the first water, so I hope you’re getting paid by the GOP (or the teabaggers, but I’d warn you not to take a check from them) for all the spinning you do on their behalf. They pay jillions of dollars for that crap from professional spinners every year, so surely you aren’t doing them a freebie, are you? That’s like a whore saying “This one’s on me”, and then her pimp shows up and boxes both you and her in the mouth.
Nate, can I get some of that kind bud you are smoking please? I don't see how else you could make this statement than being extraordinarily high:
But, if I had to set an over-under on this race, it would be above 9 points for Coakley, especially given the earlier polling. If Coakley were to hold the 58 percent she got in the Suffolk and WNEC polls, for instance, at Brown got all the undecideds, that would imply a 16-point margin of victory. Or, if you take Rasmussen's 9-point margin and add 4-5 points to it, which has been roughly the magnitude of their house effect thus far this year, that would imply a 13-14 point win.
OK - NOW, What ACTUAL ELECTIONS have we seen in 2008 and 2009 so as to determine "house effects"???
2008 Presidential
Ras: Obama Plus 6, 52/46
Actual: Obama Plus 7.3, 52.9/45.6
Here a house effect of overestimating GOP strength by 1.3%
2009 VA GOV Race
Ras: McD Plus 13, 54-41
Actual: McD Plus 17.5, 58.7-41.2
Here's a house effect of underestimating GOP strength by 4.5%
2009 NJ GOV Race
Ras: Christie Plus 3, 46/43
Actual: Christie Plus 4.8, 48.8/44/5
Here's a house effect of underestimating GOP strength by 1.8%
So, Rasmussen has been within two points of the final margin of two of these and off by almost 5 points an the other of these large races. And you claim there is a 4-5 point house effect? Really?
The largest house effect is actually AWAY from the GOP by 5 points in VA. Re 2008 Obama win, its pretty clear late deciders went Obama, which explains the 1.3% miss on margin. Where's the house effect?
You're a smart guy Nate, I just can't understand why you'd make this stupid a statement. don't give me the BS about Obama popularity polls house effects - we're talking about an actual vote that is two weeks away, not daily tracking polls for popularity.
Where is an example of a Rasmussen house effect in a large 2009 race?
Certainly the 2008 Presidential can't be an example.
As for Suffolk, they were actually VERY VERY WRONG on NJ.
Suffolk University
10/22 - 10/25 400 LV
33 42 7 Corzine +9
And that is the pollster you cite to support the Dem candidate?
REALLY?
SUFFOLK had a RIDICULOUS 14 POINT HOUSE EFFECT ON NET MARGIN IN NJ. THEY HAD THE DEM WINNING BY NINE AND THEY LOST BY 5 - Doesn't that mean that the race is a lot closer than what they say?
Only a koolaid swigging Obama worshipper could possibly claim that Rasmussen has a 5 point house effect on polling actual votes in 2009 in large statewide elections or in the big show in 2008.
If anything, your analysis means that more independents will vote, which will HELP Brown a lot, consider they are breaking 45 points net in favor of Brown!
Let's say your crackhead, against all data theory of a 5 point house effect for the GOP is true - then the margin for independents would be 40 points net - still not good for Miss Martha if more independents vote, no?
Seriously bro, you need to come up off of that kind bud before hitting "post"
Geoff…
Sorry Ace, nobody buys that spin any more, even illiterate Republicans.
Since you either haven’t been paying attention or you are not the brightest bulb in the string, Raspublican always shows a GOP bias except right before an election. Then he stops cooking his numbers and reports the truth, and all of a sudden his numbers jibe with everyone else’s. He does this only so dolts like you can keep saying ad nauseam “He’s the most accurate pollster around!”
You’re a patsy, Geoff, manipulated by the very people who are probably screwing you every day in more ways than one. How does that make you feel?
Coakley's margin will be closer to 29 than 9. Rasmussen is out of his mind. Brown is a joke candidate who has no money, almost no media presence and its Massachusetts.
In the primaries, four times as many voters came out for Democratic candidates than Republican candidates and not only did Coakley by herself nearly double the number of voters that voted in the GOP primary, but Capuano out drew them and the 3rd and 4th candidates combined did as well. Plus, Coakley was the 2nd choice of every Democratic voter group according to the polls.
Coakley has out raised Brown four to one and has far more organizational and volunteer/machine/activist support. Not only does she have union support but the Republican Party is practically a non-entity in Massachusetts.
Coakley has much higher name recognition. She's state AG, while Brown won't even win his state Senate district of less than 200K.
Its not going to be close, but if the Republicans want to measure their progress by a Massachusetts election, feel free.
Nicely done, Geoff. I admire your patience in taking apart these numbers and showing how this MA race is a good deal closer than the Libs would like to admit.
petekent01 (on twitter)
A lefty says:
Pragmatus said...
Geoff…
Sorry Ace, nobody buys that spin any more, even illiterate Republicans.
Since you either haven’t been paying attention or you are not the brightest bulb in the string, Raspublican always shows a GOP bias except right before an election. Then he stops cooking his numbers and reports the truth, and all of a sudden his numbers jibe with everyone else’s. He does this only so dolts like you can keep saying ad nauseam “He’s the most accurate pollster around!”
You’re a patsy, Geoff, manipulated by the very people who are probably screwing you every day in more ways than one. How does that make you feel?
Dude, you need to get back on the Xanax. You have any idea how ridiculous that "theory" of yours is?
do you even know what the margins from Ras were 2 weeks out in those three elections (obama, Va, NJ)?
How about 4 weeks out? Or are you just talking out of your (excuse my French) butt?
Ras on VA:
2 weeks out: McD plus 7 (10/12)
4 weeks out: McD plus 9 (9/29)
Ras on NJ:
2 weeks out: Chr plus 2 (10/19)
4 weeks out: Chr plus 3 (10/5)
Ras on Obama:
ALL of Ras polls are between a 5 and 7 point lead for Obama from late September 2008 forward, and Obama won by 7.
So where is your stupid theory, pal, in the actual data from a month before polling, or longer?
More fantasyland from the left to keep morale up. :)
Geoff…
Why would I need to boost my morale? The GOP are the ones in the shithouse, and looks like they will be there for some years to come, battling Democrats on one side and teabaggers on the other.
Can you cite some sources for your claim? Just put a link here, and I’ll check back later.
As a moderate independent in MA: This is not close. The prevailing sentiment about the Democratic primary was that all 4 candidates would do fine as Senators, obviously the one who won would be that Senator, and Coakley seemed to have it sewn up so why bother.
Sure, the Republicans should put up a not-too-objectionable candidate in case Coakley shoots herself in the foot, and Brown sort of is that, though Robinson was a much better choice for that strategy. We'll elect Republicans to the governorship to keep the legislature in check; elect one to Congress? In this climate? Never happening.
I also wouldn't count on a large number of voters who a) know that there's a special election for US Senator; b) plan to vote for whatever name they recognize, say Kennedy. That stuff is for down-ballot races when there's high turnout for the races at the top.
Pragmatus said...
Geoff…
Why would I need to boost my morale? The GOP are the ones in the shithouse, and looks like they will be there for some years to come, battling Democrats on one side and teabaggers on the other.
Can you cite some sources for your claim? Just put a link here, and I’ll check back later.
January 5, 2010 9:35 PM
Its all straight from easy to read RCP tables.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2009/governor/va/virginia_governor_mcdonnell_vs_deeds-1055.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2009/governor/nj/new_jersey_governor_corzine_vs_christie-1051.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html
all the polls from everyone are listed there, along with averages and the final score in each.
The VA and NJ crushing the Dems took on independents has not gone away, folks, and if nate's right and more independents come out to vote, they may vote for Brown on Obamacare or even terrorism...Brown says send Abdul to Gitmo, and i bet a majority of Mass likely voters support that position...the debate this morning was not good for Miss Martha
A Reptard (Geoff) said...
(a whole lot of male bovine dropping spin on how Raspublican is SOOOOOOOOOO accurate).
You gave examples of the Governorship races in Virginia and New Jersey.
How do you spin this:
10/23/2008: BO 52, JM 44 (eight point difference)
But then four days later:
10/26/2009: BO 50, JM 47 (three point difference)
And then three days later:
10/29/2008: BO 51, JM 46 (five point difference)
And on November 2, Raspublican reported the following:
11/2/2008: BO 52, JM 46 (six point difference, but still less than the 7.3 point difference of the final vote)
So, between October 23 and the election (a period of less than two weeks), the difference between the two candidates bounced from three to eight, and several places in between. To me, that doesn't seem to demonstrate much consistency, or a lot of prescience. And if in less that two weeks, the difference between the two candidates (without any major breaking new events in those two weeks) bounces that much, either the race is a toss-up, or the pollster is not polling correctly.
Yet, the Reptards are saying that Raspublican's poll of today (barely into January) can predict what is going to happen in November?
Can I have some of that bud you're smoking? It must be kick-ass good if you have delusions that Raspublican is "THE BEST".
Mike in Maryland
Geoff…
I’ll stand behind Mike in Maryland here. Couldn’t have slammed you better myself.
Please recall that Raspublican has today pegged the MA senator race at +9 for Coakley. Then let’s see how the race turns out, and that will give us (but not you of course) a good confirmation of Raspublican’s bias.
So, between October 23 and the election (a period of less than two weeks), the difference between the two candidates bounced from three to eight, and several places in between. To me, that doesn't seem to demonstrate much consistency, or a lot of prescience. And if in less that two weeks, the difference between the two candidates (without any major breaking new events in those two weeks) bounces that much, either the race is a toss-up, or the pollster is not polling correctly.
Yet, the Reptards are saying that Raspublican's poll of today (barely into January) can predict what is going to happen in November?
Can I have some of that bud you're smoking? It must be kick-ass good if you have delusions that Raspublican is "THE BEST".
Mike in Maryland
MIKE, you're grasping at straws by trying to pick single three day samples instead of averaging out each week and looking at the trend. Rasmussen had it at about 5-7 points from the sept crash to the election.....gallup was much more choppy and actually overestimated the margin by 5 points!
And, Nate was referring to 2009, and there is nothing in 2009 that shows any house effects at Rasmussen for actual votes, in fact the reverse is true for NJ and VA.
A Reptard (Geoff) said...
(a whole lot of male bovine dropping spin on how Raspublican is SOOOOOOOOOO accurate).
You gave examples of the Governorship races in Virginia and New Jersey.
How do you spin this:
10/23/2008: BO 52, JM 44 (eight point difference)
But then four days later:
10/26/2009: BO 50, JM 47 (three point difference)
And then three days later:
10/29/2008: BO 51, JM 46 (five point difference)
And on November 2, Raspublican reported the following:
11/2/2008: BO 52, JM 46 (six point difference, but still less than the 7.3 point difference of the final vote)
So, between October 23 and the election (a period of less than two weeks), the difference between the two candidates bounced from three to eight, and several places in between. To me, that doesn't seem to demonstrate much consistency, or a lot of prescience. And if in less that two weeks, the difference between the two candidates (without any major breaking new events in those two weeks) bounces that much, either the race is a toss-up, or the pollster is not polling correctly.
Yet, the Reptards are saying that Raspublican's poll of today (barely into January) can predict what is going to happen in November?
Can I have some of that bud you're smoking? It must be kick-ass good if you have delusions that Raspublican is "THE BEST".
Mike in Maryland
January 5, 2010 9:48 PM
Blogger Pragmatus said...
Geoff…
I’ll stand behind Mike in Maryland here. Couldn’t have slammed you better myself.
Please recall that Raspublican has today pegged the MA senator race at +9 for Coakley. Then let’s see how the race turns out, and that will give us (but not you of course) a good confirmation of Raspublican’s bias.
Dudes, you really just cant even talk about the NJ or VA polling and the results can you?
None of the lefty pollers were right, and Ras was. Suffolk, which Nate cites, was off by 14 points in NJ.... these are facts, lefties, yet somehow, i guess through cognitive dissonance, just don't appear as facts to lefties:
2009 VA GOV Race
Ras: McD Plus 13, 54-41
Actual: McD Plus 17.5, 58.7-41.2
Here's a house effect of underestimating GOP strength by 4.5%
2009 NJ GOV Race
Ras: Christie Plus 3, 46/43
Actual: Christie Plus 4.8, 48.8/44/5
Here's a house effect of underestimating GOP strength by 1.8%
Ras on VA:
2 weeks out: McD plus 7 (10/12)
4 weeks out: McD plus 9 (9/29)
Ras on NJ:
2 weeks out: Chr plus 2 (10/19)
4 weeks out: Chr plus 3 (10/5)
Geoff…
Keep thinking the way you are thinking, and then let’s see how accurate Raspublican’s 9-point lead for Coakley pans on January 19.
Wouldn’t you say that would be a good test, or are you going to keep trying to spin numbers from the past?
(I notice that in your bleating you make no mention of Raspublican's titanic goof regarding NY-23.)
yea, we'll see what happens 1/19 my friend.
i think y'all are in for a surprise - average folk are scared of what the Dems are up to in DC....
Geoff…
“y’all”?
Gee, a deep red GOOPer from the South. How unusual.
Geoff…
I’m sure “average folk” down around where you live are scared. After all, that’s where people still believe in the bogeyman.
Pragmatus said...
Geoff…
“y’all”?
Gee, a deep red GOOPer from the South. How unusual.
January 5, 2010 11:23 PM
Ya know, for a bunch of folks who claim to be so tolerant and diverse, you radical leftists sure are good at the bigotry thing when its folks who dont agree with you.
bigot = you
Lemme try to act like you - are you a middle school teacher in San Fran who sponsors the "Learn the Joys of Fisting" Club as sponsored by Ken Jennings of the Obama Administration?
Sucks to be the subject of a bigoted attack over where you live, doesn't it?
Geoff…
So—what you’re saying is that equating a Southerner with being a Republican is a “bigoted attack”. I didn’t realize you were so sensitive about your party. My mistake, but I’d suggest to you that you’re not going to attract adherents feeling about your party the way you do. Just an observation.
However your “fisting’ comment is without question bigoted, but I must say it’s no surprise given the kind of stuff coming from Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann.
It’s all you guys have anymore, scream and spin, scream and spin.
Hard to believe Coakley has been able to dodge her shameful role in the Amirault case, which was the biggest witch hunt in Massachusetts since Salem, and for which she is apparently unrepentant. There are few greater travesties of justice in modern American history.
Dissatisfaction with Democrats DOES NOT translate into support for Republicans.
They were righteously trounced for holding the EXACT same positions that put America into its current messes and voters will not support them when they keep saying the same things.
The Party's are NOT two sides of the same coin (other than lusting for campaign money) and I doubt ANYONE who ever supported the Democrats sees them 'equally'...this is wishful thinking by the media to equate the two, but Americans know who lied us into War, shoveled money to the rich bankrupting the Treasury, spied on citizens, bungled Katrina, et al.
Americans also know who keeps waving fetuses, screaming at gays, and hating on brown people.
Until Republicans repudiate their embarrassing base, offer a MAJOR mea culpa for their policies of the past 8 (30?) years, and think of something new to say beyond 'lower taxes', I just don't see them getting any traction outside the confederacy.
Beyond that, it's simply pathetic that their ONLY strategy for gaining votes is to hope that Democrats don't show up...they're not even trying to say that their policies are viable, necessary or compelling.
And another thing, their demographic cohorts are diminishing and they're NOT making any new fans among the young, the educated, or the non-white...
Wish and hope all you want, but America needs a robust conservative MINORITY, and the modern Republicans are just the guys to provide that...in perpetuity.
Russ, none of which you say is true, except in your imagination. You slur more than any Republican ever has.
As others have said, the only sensible resolution to this will be to see what actually happens in the election.
Speaking as an MA resident, though, I just don't see how Brown has a shot. It's easy for conservatives in the South or rural areas in other parts of the nation to overestimate the strength of conservative candidates in blue areas right now. You may feel that "ordinary people" in your part of the country don't like Obama, but "ordinary people" up here seem to love him, and have the feeling that conservatism has proven to be a failure. The resentment towards Bush and the Republicans still runs very deep.
Steve:
Massachusetts does indeed have a Libertarian Party. However, Kennedy could not run as its candidate:
(1) On the legal day of record, months and months ago, Kennedy was registered Unenrolled (the rest of you call this "Independent"). Under state law, he therefore could not run as a Democratic, Republican, or Libertarian Party candidate. He was allowed to choose to three words as his ballot line (MA afficianados will recognize how much I am simplifying here), and he chose "Liberty".
(2) If he had on that date in if I recall correctly early August been registered as a Libertarian, he could not as a practical matter have run at all, because Massachusetts ballot access law makes it harder to get on the ballot as a major party (R, D, L in Massachusetts, at the moment; R, D, G, WF until the 2008 general election) candidate than it is to get on the ballot as an independent or minor party candidate, and the resources to put Kennedy on the ballot as a Libertarian simply were not there.
After the 2010 General Election, it is reasonable to expect that Libertarians will again be a minor party, to it will again be practical for Libertarians to run on their own party line.
George
Thanks, George, for the explanation. I knew the nuances of ballot access, but didn't know Kennedy wasn't registered "L". I could ask - "why the hell not!?" but I suppose there could be many reasons. I hope you're wrong about the Ls chances in 2010.
Ironic that Kennedy should face the same problem that Schilling had. :-)
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