The FiveThirtyEight Senate Forecasting Model, which correctly predicted the outcome of all 35 Senate races in 2008, now regards Republican Scott Brown as a 74 percent favorite to win the Senate seat in Massachusetts on the basis of new polling from ARG, Research 2000 and InsiderAdvantage which show worsening numbers for Brown's opponent, Martha Coakley. We have traditionally categorized races in which one side has between a 60 and 80 percent chance of winning as "leaning" toward that candidate, and so that is how we categorize this race now: Lean GOP. Nevertheless, there is a higher-than-usual chance of large, correlated errors in the polling, such as were observed in NY-23 and the New Hampshire Democratic primary; the model hedges against this risk partially, but not completely.
Coakley's odds are substantially worse than they appeared to be 24 hours ago, when there were fewer credible polls to evaluate and there appeared to be some chance that her numbers were bottoming out and perhaps reversing. However, the ARG and Research 2000 polls both show clear and recent trends against her. Indeed the model, which was optimized for regular rather than special elections, may be too slow to incorporate new information and may understate the magnitude of the trend toward Brown.
At the same time, pollsters are more error-prone in special rather than general elections, as in other types of elections (like primaries) where turnout is hard to model. In addition, the polling may not just be error-prone but also biased in one direction. In particular, polling in comparable elections in the past, in which a Democratic or Republican candidate was facing an unusually vigorous challenge in a very blue or very red state, have tended to underestimate the performance of that candidate by an average of 2.3 points.
The 538 model builds in a de facto hedge against this by adjusting the polling average for the demographics of the state in accordance with our established procedures. Without such a hedge, it would regard Brown as better than an 85 percent favorite. However, the model is not hedged fully, as it gives Coakley a 1.3 point "bonus" rather than the 2.3 point margin by which candidates in her position have traditionally outperformed their polls. With a 2.3 point "bonus" instead, Coakley's odds of victory would be approximately 40 percent.
If significant, correlated errors in the polling occur, it is most likely to be the result of response bias, owing to the substantially greater enthusiasm of Scott Brown voters, who may be more willing to answer a pollster's phone call after having been besieged by calls from both campaigns over the past several days. Some of the pollsters' findings, like a mid-40s approval rating for Obama among 'likely' voters, are hard to reconcile with the turnouts in New Jersey or Virginia, with evidence from national polling trends, or with anecdotal reports of potentially very high turnout. A variety of factors, ranging from the increasing use of IVR polls and short sampling periods, to the unusual partisan composition of the Massachusetts electorate (which is plurality independent), to the generally inexperienced polling firms which have surveyed the state, could make these effects more likely.
In addition, there is a small chance that movement toward Coakley could occur after the pollsters have left the field. Until very recently, most voters assumed that Coakley would win; the fact that her chances are now imperiled could motivate more of them to vote, or to avoid casting a "protest vote" against her for one of her opponents. However, the chances are perhaps just as good that her voters become too despondent to turn out, which could produce a fairly substantial victory for Brown
Overall, while I would probably take Coakley's side of a 3:1 wager, her situation looks to be increasingly difficult. She is basically relying upon getting solid turnout from a "silent majority" of voters who have done little to make themselves seen and heard. We know that there are a huge number of potential such voters in Massachusetts, which remains a very blue state and which until the past three weeks had not behaved unusually in any obvious way. But the pollsters are no longer seeing and hearing from them.
Addendum: There are many assumptions in this model which may not be valid; they are discussed at considerable length here. Although I believe that these are generally a fairly well-balanced set of assumptions relative to the universe of possible assumptions (i.e. alternate sets of assumptions would tend to cluster around the 25 percent number), it is hard to know for sure. Voters and political operatives should continue to proceed as though every vote matters, as we are still well within the range where small, decimal-point shifts in turnout could have a comparatively large impact on each candidate's chance of prevailing.
1.18.2010
538 Model Posits Brown as 3:1 Favorite
by Nate Silver @ 5:26 PM...see also massachusetts, special elections
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172 comments
When the polls look so bad that even Nate can't spin them, it's time to give up on Coakley.
Go Brown!
Nate's final C.Y.A. posting. I was soooooooo expecting this.
Nate Silver, the David Shuster of polling.
I was expecting more. He's way better than that.
Time for the moderate Democrats to switch their vote to no on health care. The writing is on the wall regardless of who wins this race.
The InsiderAdvantage poll's crosstabs frankly make no sense. Brown's winning 18-29 year olds 2-1 and Hispanics 3-1 and getting as high as 25% of the black vote? Either the electoral math has changed enormously from last year, or there's something weird with that poll.
coakley.
worst. candidate. ever.
the insider poll has 24 % of dems voting for brown. if that is true dems might as well pack it in all over the country. it also has a solid 69% of the over 65 group going to coakely. i dont get modern politics
Looking at the PPP poll, 5% of self-identified liberals think the congressional GOP is too liberal, and 12% think ACORN will steal the election.
a) Who are these people? Are they really that stupid? Are some people giving deliberately deceptive answers for a laugh, or to mock the stupidity of the questions? Are there suddenly a load of libertarians (who might reasonably call themselves liberal socially and "classical/neo-liberal" economically) answering the phones?
b) Can you trust a survey that has these weird responses?
Personally, I'd favor Brown, but really?!?
@Walker
Nate's poll analysis has been the best in the business when the numbers come out in favor of the causes he supports.
When they come out the other way, he is still among the best in the business, but he clouds up his own solid work by trying to throw a blanket of qualitative analysis on top of it to hide the truth it exposes.
i didnt get the hispanics voting for brown so heavily either
Wake up Massachusetts!
Go out and vote tomorrow!
The fat lady has sung!
Nate, why is the Ras weighting still so high? I thought the date was the heaviest weighting factor for reasonably non-partisan outfits? What gives? Week old Suffolk data weighted less than half of Ras data? No good track record for Suffolk?
Well, it only took two weeks, but Nate is finally on the home team.
nothing changed in 24 hours, nate, you're just puttin this post out to cover your butt.
:)
Modern politics is simply beyond me. I simply do not get that the GOP would get excited by someone who has bared all for Cosmo on the one hand and speaks about family values on the other. All the old rules have been thrown out.
But it does seem that Brown would go down like a cup of cold sick in a solid red state. Hence the GOP is demonstrating, once again, that they are extraordinarily good at selecting candidates (NY-23 excepted - oh and McCain) and marshaling out of state supporters. For an old lefty, that's really upsetting. For an old lefty originally from a country with "free" and exquisite healthcare, the choices freely made in this country seem ever more bizarre.
So where does this put Massachusetts on the 2010 Senate Rankings? Surely, it's above Delaware now? And if not, what does that say about the races above it?
We shall see on Tuesday. It feels different than the polling. The mood around work today was one of a huge turnout for Coakley. This election is nothing like any election I've ever seen in the state. The polling might just have no model for the type of electorate that will turn out. If I listen to the press I hear that Brown will win. When I listen to my friends and coworkers it appears Coakley will win.
Note that Intrade went to 75-25ish over the last few hours. The smart money now appears to be strongly for Brown, but I wouldn't start counting chickens yet.
Hispanics breaking 76% for Brown? Ha, when pigs fly! That InsiderAdvantage poll is bull. 27% Black for Brown? Sure....It seems Brown will win, but no way is he going to get those kinds of margins.
As a former Marine stationed in Iraq, I have seen firsthand the disasterous policies that have caused my fellow Marine soliders to dye in my arms.
I have held approximately 4.6 dying Marines in my arms, their lifeless eyes rolling to the backs of their skuls, and gurlging their last dying breath in my earhole, fool of blood and gurgling noise.
"DON"T YOU DYE ON ME, MARINE!" I would screem, but then they dyed.
And for what for? All because liberal Democrats refuse to fund our troops in battle and give us money for bodily armor and guns.
Shame on you, libs, shame on you hardcore style! I am voting for Scott D. Brown for senate.
And so should you.
FINAL PROJECTION:
Freedom Brown 53%
Martha COKEhead 41%
After all unreasonably harsh comments (not by Nate) about Rasmussen, it is amusing to see them provide the only last minute poll that puts Coakley ahead.
I'll be smiling tomorrow when I vote for Brown.
"Well, it only took two weeks, but Nate is finally on the home team.
nothing changed in 24 hours, nate, you're just puttin this post out to cover your butt."
Uh, actually there are new polls out. Nate has not changed his model one bit. He has just updated it to reflect the latest polls. And yes, they don't look great for Coakley.
It will be fascinating either way.
We get a case study in campaign incompetence or a case study in poll failure.Maybe both.
We get a three year term for an empty suit or a three year term for a muddled frump.
All in all I look forward to tomorrow as it will be 'interesting' in the full Chinese sense.
I think this was a very good breakdown. A good forecaster understands the limits of predictive power. If I am understanding correctly, the most difficult thing to project for tomorrow's race is the shape of the electorate--in special elections, the electorates are often highly abnormal. This is really the main reason why Nate is hedging, and he is right to do so.
I think the most prudent lesson to take out of this race is that the political climate, for some reason, has changed rather starkly since 2008. I have my own opinions as to why that has happened, but people can certainly come to their own conclusions.
@Jason S - No last minute poll for Ras. Check the date. Still weighted very heavily, probably due to the size of the poll. Still funny that it is the only thing keeping ol' Martha alive in Nate's model though.
birdboy2000 said...
"The InsiderAdvantage poll's crosstabs frankly make no sense. Brown's winning 18-29 year olds 2-1 and Hispanics 3-1 and getting as high as 25% of the black vote? Either the electoral math has changed enormously from last year, or there's something weird with that poll."
It's possible that it's just two things:
(1) The health care reform is forcing young healthy people to pay for the care of old sick people. The premiums just went up massively and those emails are going out in companies all around the area. Add to that the fact that the health care bill would mean a massive subsidy from MA to the rest of the country. I think there are a couple of good reasons for a young person in MA to vote in their self interest and block the health care bill.
(2) Hispanics are often also Catholics, and Martha Coakley managed to insult Catholics in that radio interview.
In other words, I don't think this will fully extrapolate nationally, unless the Dems manage to find more candidates that male union labor hates and that can simultaneously insult Catholics, sports fans, etc.
And Coakley might still win if they get the Dem women to vote in spades.
@Mazza
Modern politics is simply beyond me. I simply do not get that the GOP would get excited by someone who has bared all for Cosmo on the one hand and speaks about family values on the other. All the old rules have been thrown out.
My interpretation: hard-core conservatives are energized by the prospect of winning a seat that they really would have no chance at under normal circumstances. They are also excited that their candidate has come out so strongly against the health care bills. Everything else, I think, is secondary to those larger things--I get the feeling that most people don't pay that much attention to minor details like a magazine shoot, anyway.
Ok, I'm not the total numbers wonk that many of you are but Nate having a +2.2 for Brown is still not reason to say all is lost if one were a Democrat. I think several of the polls raise questions and even if Nate's record is good he still has to rely on alot of other people's work. Would I say that Brown on the night before the vote looks good? Yes but not a shoo in. I do not see that with numbers that close on any thing as imprecise as polling how any one would want to get that far out on a limb. If any thing Nate seems to be buying the conventional media mantra. I will make the prediction that if this does break for Brown then there will be much more cooking of polls and media use of them to create, shape and move the American electorate to desired outcomes. Ah but what they will do to stir up controversy and ratings and......were that this was just a simple election between candidates most would not give a damn. This will now get spun out of all sembelence of any thing that is really happening and that is just if Coakley wins. If Brown wins Fox will have the Obamas packing by tomorrow night. Damn I wish this country would get a grip. Wish I knew for sure why but I still see Coakley squeaking this out. Some thing just does not seem right.
I haven't heard any mention about lack of cellphone polling...that was brought up over and over last year. And I do have a landline but haven't received any call for my opinion.
It ain't over 'til it's over....
I love all the people going "LOL NATE IS FINALLY WAKING UP". Uh, no, it's just that the poll data is finally projecting a likely Brown win according to his model, which, as he noted, correctly predicted every single race in 2008. Is it that hard to believe that maybe, just maybe, Nate is trying to put together an objective as possible analysis rather than just starting with what outcome he wants and then looking for a justification for it?
The poll that matters is tomorrow.
Remember the polling for NY-23.
Brown is blanketing MA with telephone calls, but his campaign is making a big mistake in doing so, because the people calling voters have Southern accents. New Englanders don’t like folks from Dixie telling them how to vote.
The poll that matters is tomorrow.
First, that comment by "He".... shows exactly WHY Scott Brown can not win this election.
If that is the sort of misinformed person who supports Mr. Brown as his REPRESENTATIVE, I hope and pray I am correct.
Martha Coakley will win the election.
Nate Silver is a smart dude, but frankly ... the word trumps the math.
And maybe, we can stop letting BUSINESSES-for-hire tell us what we think!
All the Trolls saying I told you so when Nate posts data in their favor. Nate has covered all scenarios in his analysis of this race. The fact he makes his preference apparent has no bearing on his analysis, in the end numbers rule. Everything HAS changed over the last 24 hours and things aren't looking good for Coakley.
Now the Senate can fillabuster heathcare, but then what, the 2010 elections are a ways off. No message, no agenda, no ideas other than ideas expressed in the early 1980's, nothing other than the concept of NO. Between now and November health care costs are going to rise, and the GOP did nothing.
GoOPers are still screwed in the long run unless some new blood come up with some concrete ideas to solve the country's problems.
Most likely a brilliant analysis.
I'll still take the "over" 2.2
Also curious what people think about the fact the Brown is having to hire people to get out the vote--a task usually lovingly done by volunteers.(won't let me paste the link but it's from theplumline.whorunsgov.com)
Nate:
Apart from the inclusion of 2 week old polling, this is a very reasonable take.
Fellow conservatives, get off Nate's back. He is by far the most objective polling analyst on the left and has a track record to prove it. I do not blame him for being cautious. If this flood of polling data is correct, we are witnessing the unthinkable - a GOP candidate running a center right campaign explicitly promising to reverse the policies of a recently elected Dem president and winning Teddy Kennedy's seat in deep blue Massachusetts.
I can hardly believe it and am unwilling to make my own prediction and jinx this. Nate has gone where I am unwilling to go. I am waiting until the actual returns come in.
I'm one of those 'silent' voters.
Not inspired to put out a yard sign for Martha Coakley, but will be voting for her tomorrow. I have received 10-15 calls per day over the past week from each campaign and three polling research calls, none of which I've answered. My mother is a 'teapartier' and has been campaigning mightily for Scott Brown from the beginning.It is true the excitement is on his side. When all of the excited/hold-your-nose votes are counted, though, I still think Coakley will win. We'll see....
A lot of Intraders must follow Nate - I checked just before this came out and it's just changed about 5 points in Brown's favor.
He i remmeber u from 2008-where have u been in your belovid marine core defendin' r freedums oversees? As usual u are hilarious keep the laffs coming.
As for my baffled friends above none of the crosstabs you mention are incomprehensible except 5% of liberals thinking republicans are too liberal those people must just be confused.
69% of elderly supporting coakley in mass makes perfect sense -these are Ted Kennedys contemporaries who only know how to pull the D lever on election day (my grandmother is one of them) and will vote Coakley or not at all.
I wouldnt get too excited about hispanic and black crosstabs. massachusetts is about 85-88% white roughly 6% each of the above. a good pollster would ask about 25 of each group only maybe less so high variance is probable.
Those groups also tend to have lower turnouts than whites and will not save martha from the angry white male who may explain 24 percent of dems also plausibly going against her. They are a little bit sexist and really tired of our hackarrific craptastic one party democratic government although they registered as dems years ago. (I am almost one of them though switched to independent 10 years ago)
Mathas only hope now is to get the ladies to turn out in droves to save her -it could happen here in mass with the unions helping as well she can pull it off.
Her final campaign ad should feature Beyonce- "all the single ladies- VOTE! VOTE!" But no her campaign is not nearly that clever if prior ads are any guide her closing argument will be "Scott Brown- voted to leave rape victims on the sidewalk to DIE!" Sad but true
We'll never forget you Marcia!
IF this happens it will be a major change. The norm in the BOSWASH corridor is that the late deciders/low information voters in the Portland-Richmond metroplex tended to be hereditary Democrats who made a decision to either vote [Dem] or stay home. They would occasionally vote GOP for governor if given a RINO who stressed governance [Virginia it could be an ex-socio con who had a record in office on governance]. However they just didn't send Republicans to the Senate. They would sometimes reelect incumbents but new ones tended to fade in the last few days before election day. IF this change has happened one might be more inclined to blame the MA Dem Party for abuse of power at the state and local level than Obama. Coakley has become the poster child for a decade of local scandals.
I posit this parable once again.
The Hangover; Bay State Style
Massachusetts voters are going to wake up on Wednesday morning with one hell of a hangover. They're going to roll over in bed and see Scott Brown laying there and immediately think, "Oh dear God. What have I done?".
It seemed like a good idea at the time. He's a rogue, motorcycle riding, anti-establishment, bad boy. It feels good to let it all hang out like there's no tomorrow.
So they'll sneak out of the bedroom but it'll be too late. Friends, Family, and co-workers will all know. Oh, the shame.
Then, feeling a little weird (because they engaged in unprotected voting or voting without thinking), they'll go to the doctor and she'll say, "Oh, there's no cure for that. You'll have to learn to live with it."
Of course this will prevent them from getting anything done at the capitol where they work. Eventually they'll have to go to rehab and everything will be okay but not before plenty of damage has been done.
If only they could take it all back. If only there was a time mach...
Snap!! Wha..? Oh, it was just a dream. It's not too late! We can still prevent this from ever happening! We can keep the obstructionist Republicans from derailing the change we demanded in 2008. We haven't yet been unfaithful to ourselves and Obama. Uncle Teddy will smile upon us from Heaven. The world will be right.
It's not too late.
I've never been one to doubt Nate. But I can only hope he's wrong this time.
Geoff the QUEEN of the closeted teabaggers. Do you closet case HO'S have any life. doesn't look like it.
I think Nate Silver is using the info he has on THIS series of polls and the model he has FROM the regular election (with 35 Senate races) back in 2008.
I think that model will not apply and that is why Mr. Silver is "hedging".
This ONE race has taken the interest of politically active people from all over the country, especially those who have the most to gain -- the ones who LOST the most in 2008.
These folks from the Republican and tea party "machine" have gotten their NATIONAL team worked up, while the Demas were leaving the work to the locals. Is it any wonder, the Brown voters were waiting by the phone for the pollster call?
But -- the backfire in all the national attention and the absolute crowing of the right wing, is that it wakes up the electorate in general. I am betting on that to effect the results.
I say Martha Coakley will win -- I BELIEVE that. It comes from a place deeper than statistics.
I hope and pray, I am coming from the truth.
Man, it must really be bad. Poster 'He' has returned from 2008.
JMS said...
"A lot of Intraders must follow Nate - I checked just before this came out and it's just changed about 5 points in Brown's favor."
Nate Silver said he'd go long Coakley at 25 points. The offer is at 25 right now.
He, that was the most disgusting display of misplaced and fake emotional appeal I've seen in a long time.
You have held "approximately 4.6" dying Marines in your arms? Is that a paraplegic joke!? It's not funny. I'm just glad this story is almost certainly fake.
And just for the record, the Democrats have never, ever, even once refused to fund our troops. But the Republicans did, just a month ago; they filibustered a vote to fund our troops, ostensibly to help delay healthcare reform. Of course they didn't succeed...a few of them had some basic decency. But let's get down to brass tacks here; the Marines who really have died, in other, non-fictional peoples' arms, died because a Republican administration sent them to two wars. One of those was totally unnecessary and was sold on the back of lies and bad intelligence produced on demand for the Bush administration. Both wars were horribly incompetently prosecuted. When we went to Vietnam our soldiers got 6 months of basic Vietnamese language. We went into Afghanistan and Iraq with no language training at all. Then they disbanded the Iraqi army, creating a million or so unemployed and dissident men with military training. Those are just the two worst ones off the top of my head.
If you really are a Marine and you really have seen people die (not dye) in your arms, please understand my skepticism. And please recognize the people who really did send them to their deaths. It wasn't the Democrats.
"On the one hand . . and on the other hand."
Nate Silver's usual trenchant analysis.
Thanks for nothing. I figured this out last night when intrade was at 65 percent for Brown!
@Steve J.
I get the feeling that most people don't pay that much attention to minor details like a magazine shoot, anyway.
LOL! And the same wingers who are supproting Brown, and ignoring the centerfold, are holding Coakley's toes to the fire for mis-speaking about a baseball star!
Too funny!
Obama is not a DEMOCRAT?!
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Afghanistan/marines-begin-surge-days-christmas/story?id=9352688
For the record, I am NOT "supproting" Brown.
TURNOUT
When I worked for the NDP (Canada's center-left party) several decades ago, we knew, although being the perennial 3rd party, when the turnout went over a certain point, we got 2 out of 3 additional votes. Some of the dynamics are similair, & MC needs very high turnout. It is doable.
@ Elizabeth
I know this is personal but if you don't mind telling us, how are you registered......Dem, Independent, GOP? TIA.
Scott Brown is "the San Diego Chargers going to the Super Bowl".
Spread: Chargers 7
Win: NY Jets
Stats were wrong. Bets were lost.
A "great" kicker missed all three...
_________
Lesson to Dems in MA -- take the ball and runnnnnnn...........
(A JUNIOR Republican will not serve your best interests, that is impossible -- he would have to serve his masters in leadership FIRST! WAKE UP!)
@Hunter
'He" is a sockpuppet parody from way back. Don't get too worked up over it.
538.com Tank Brigades Alert!
Put down your tea bags, troops, and turn turret right!
Lots of fat, juicy targets just over the horizon!
Look at that slow, lumbering one there...the one with "Reid'a Raiders" on the side in Vegas glitter.. Easy picken's boys, easy picken's. Fish in a barrel... Boo-ya! Bulls-eye! I like what's I like and THAT is what I like!
What more? Yes, indeed, soldiers, statesmen, and knightly gentleman, yes indeed... Look ho! There! A "moderate" one from Arkansas, slow of the blocks is this one...her turret is stuck left...unable to pivot in time... Too bad, so sad! BLAAMMO! Gone!
What?! A radio call from RNC Headquarters? Ignore it! What do they know anyhow?! This is a citizen's army! We press on and we FIGHT!
Woah! Looksie, looksie...what do we have here? Ah, a wee pretty one! One from Indiana by the looks of it...look at that... Too bad, with a turret also stuck pin left... What's this?! You see the flag there?! He wants quarter rights! Ha ha! No quarter, boys, no quarter. What do you think this is, Sunday School? Blast him!
Turret middle, straight on a line!
Now where's the one from Wisconsin? Anyone see Neumann's Tank?
Well, It is Kennedy's Seat [Jonah Goldberg]
Rep. Chris Van Hollen:
“Why would you hand the keys to the car back to the same guys whose policies drove the economy into the ditch and then walked away from the scene of the accident?
Remind anyone of something Teddy did, and a murdered girl?
Dems are so tone deaf...
@Mr. Universe
I've never been one to doubt Nate. But I can only hope he's wrong this time.
Nate's not "wrong". His model is accurately predicting the implications of the available polling data.
The polling data, however, is questionable, for all the reasons we have rehearsed lately. Nate mentions these caveats - which, of course, the wingers ignore.
Further, a "1 in 3 chance" is the same as certainty. It means that we can reasonably expect that 1 out of every 3 times he gets this result, it will be wrong. This may be the time.
That's right, shrinkers. NJ was #1, Virginia was #2, so THAT has to be #3!!
31 October 2009
Doug Hoffman 51
Bill Owens 34
1 November 2009
Doug Hoffman 41
Bill Owens 36
3 November 2009
Bill Owens 48
Doug Hoffman 46
Universe, I like your story. But let us take it another step or two. The Mass electorate does indeed elect Brown and then get to watch as the media goes more whacked than normal and they are shown to be the much talked about hole that sinks the Democratic ship. Mr. Brown goes to Washington and walks the Republican walk and every time he casts yet another no vote they are reminded of it. The whole system finishes tanking and they are reminded of it even more. I now some on the right like to keep using the term buyers remorse for any one the Democrats elect but is not there an even bigger potential case of buyers remorse should Brown win in Mass? Now Brown appears to me to me to be a career politician and if this plays out in the manner described above would not his political career be pretty much over in 3 years? He is young and ambitious, is he willing enough or enough of an ideologue to put himself into a situation where he couldn't get elected dog catcher down the road?
And what is up with this HE person? Is that for real? I have many Marine friends and they are all top shelf. They also know who sent them into combat ill equipted and for bogus reasons and that it wasn't the Democrats. They may be conservative but they sure as hell are not dumb.
I was gonna sit out because Marta's negative ads really turned me off, but then the tea party ads came on strong and were, unbelievably, even worse and moreover grossly dishonest. So I guess I'll vote for Martha and bring some mints for after.
It's funny how Coakley all of the sudden in the last 14 days has become a "terrible candidate". A terrible campaigner yes, but she's the same candidate she's been her entire career.
Democrats tend to confuse "candidate" with "campaigner". A good or bad campaigner does not always mean a good or bad candidate and vice versa.
Here is a simple less sophisticated projection. Often an average of the final polls for any race comes quite close to the actual result. Using data from Real Clear Politics Poll page:
Final 5 polls: Brown up in 4, one tied, average +6.2%
Going back a bit further, final 10 polls: Brown up in 8, average +5.5%
Of the last ten polls, the only 2 Brown did not lead in were both done by Research 2000 polls.
Haha. Charles, I'm not sure what happened that caused you to start saying sensible, funny things...but I like it.
@Charles
That's right, shrinkers. NJ was #1, Virginia was #2, so THAT has to be #3!!
Good point. I'm sure you're right.
@massdocnorth
I still REALLY don't trust those numbers for young voters, who *are* a sizable proportion of Massachusetts' population - moreso in most states because of the university factor, although that might not be in play as much as usual: some schools aren't back yet. The R2K poll had them going 65-30 FOR Coakley and they're hard to sample because of cellphone use. Young voters might trend Brown because of health care, but OTOH we (and I use we, given my young age) tend to have very liberal views, low incomes and an above-average unemployment rate.
I probably can't fairly judge by my in-state friends, 'cause I'm a pinko anyway, but they're strongly democratic.
It's called sarcasm.
Look at all of the comments above that are shocked how Hispanics are polling for Brown, shocked that blacks are voting for Brown.
Democrats are as racist and probably more racist than anyone around. If you're black, they expect you to act their way. If you're Hispanic, they expect you to vote for them. Remember non-whites, you don't have a mind of your own, just go to the polls and punch your ticket. Thanks.
It's a short scan of these messages to see the white Democrats and their expectations. Tow the line everyone.
Jesus, Charles, you don't really think we're actually that unintelligent do you? Of course it was sarcasm. It was funny, and sensible, precisely because it was sarcasm. Anyway, I should have just kept my mouth shut; obviously I've put you back into your normal mode.
I am confident that we will go to sleep tomorrow knowing Coakley as the winner. All of this hype and bandwagoning will derail soon enough.
I have no idea how intelligent or unintelligent you or shrinkers are (at the very minimum, we can all type here). I'm always in my normal mode.
juvanya:
What will you be smoking tomorrow?
It is amazing how Democrats frame all politics through the lens of race.
Who are Hispanics voting for?
Who are Blacks voting for?
How can we scare them to vote for us?
The race-obsessed identity politics of the left are sickening.
shrinkers said...
"Further, a "1 in 3 chance" is the same as certainty. It means that we can reasonably expect that 1 out of every 3 times he gets this result, it will be wrong. This may be the time."
Nit picking, but Nate Silver wrote:
"I would probably take Coakley's side of a 3:1 wager"
3:1 wager means 75% implied prob. of SB and 25% implied prob. of MC winning. Intrade is right at the point now, too.
@keetz4
I'm a progressive - registered as an Independent. I voted for Obama, and Coakley in the primary. I had been a Green Party voter until the 2000 election.
For further edification, I am white, Irish/Italian, and Catholic. I'm offended by Scott Brown's pseudo-populist 'truck' talk. I live on the South Shore of Boston,(Plymouth) and the signs here are virtually all Brown.
Tonight we have He yukking it up with his Colbert style archconservative parody.
And Mr Universe with a funny and perhaps prescient analogy about sleeping with the former cosmo boy Brown
I was having a great time and then consrvative wunderkind
Geoff brings up Chappaquidick for the 1000000th time. Guess what genius- Teds dead, her parents are dead. Yeah OK he should have gone to jail but didn't its over and done. It only annoys most people in Massachusetts to bring up this deadest of dead horses to no end. Conservatives are so tone deaf...
Democrats are as racist and probably more racist than anyone around.
Obviously you are white. Because real live blacks and hispanics know better than to say things like that. Why? Because the Democratic Party has for about 50 years been fighting for causes that matter to them, while the GOP has consistently opposed those causes and in many cases furthered policy that actively hurts them. Not to mention the absolutely incessant (sometimes "dogwhistled") racist messages coming from every corner of the Conservative movement.
Also, blacks and hispanics really do vote Democratic by large margins. It is appropriate to question polls that don't bear that out. Were you hoping that large numbers of blacks were shifted to the GOP column by Pat Robertson this week?
Let it be known that Nate's model is calling for a 2 point Brown win.
These models should not be measured against the winner/loser, but the margin of victory.
Hey, that Rasmussen is SOOOOO biased!
He is the only recent poll that has Coakley winning.
The Rasmussen haters on this site should be ashamed of themselves. What a laughing stock....
It is amazing how Democrats frame all politics through the lens of race.
I'm not so sure that breaking out a poll's internals and noting that they are nowhere near what any reasonable person would ever consider halfway plausible amounts to "fram[ing] all politics through the lens of race."
But I guess we should ask what you think: is Brown going to get 67% of the hispanic vote and 25% of the black vote tomorrow? I'll give you 2:1 against...
juvanya...
Agreed.
God willing.
Neither Hispanics nor young voters going for Brown surprises me in the least.
Hispanics tend to be socially conservative Catholics who vote Democratic because of economics and GOP anti-immigration sentiment. (In fact, the only people I know who oppose gay marriage here are either Hispanic or Muslim.) The last two GOP MA candidates made illegal immigration a focal point of their platforms, while Brown largely avoids it. He touches on it on his site, but otherwise does not bring it up in his campaign. He has, however, harped on Coakley's comment about people with moral issues about contraception (Catholics) working in emergency rooms. I happen to agree with Coakley on this, but it's offended a lot of Catholics.
As for young voters, at least in Massachusetts, I've found that people my age are generally more conservative on economic issues than older people. I haven't met anybody around my age who opposes charter schools, supports the EFCA, or thinks that the health care bill is better than the status quo (many are studiously indifferent on the latter two issues, most support charter schools). By contrast, most older people I know like the health bill, and many support EFCA and/or oppose charter schools. I know that at least on the health bill this sounds like the reverse of the national situation, but bear in mind that young people here have to deal with Romneycare in ways that older people do not. I think makes a different.
@obelix
Thanks, you're right. 3:1 is not 1/3. I stand corrected.
"Prominent Democrats in Boston are privately seething at the candidate and her campaign. First and foremost, they see the immediate impact defeat could have on the health care overhaul. Beyond that, they fret about the seismic impact a Republican victory in Massachusetts would have on Obama’s national standing. And they are nearly despondent about what a defeat would mean to Ted Kennedy’s legacy and memory.
We’re at an amazing point right now in which nobody knows what will happen Tuesday. And it’s not because of anything Coakley did, but because of everything she didn’t."
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/01/15/race_is_in_a_spinout/
@VeryConservativeMan
Hey, that Rasmussen is SOOOOO biased!
He is the only recent poll that has Coakley winning.
If you read the comments about Rasmussen, the complaint has been that he tilts Republican until very close to an election -- then he drops the bias and starts getting accurate.
If his most recent poll shows Coakley winning, that fits the pattern.
Nate, why did you even attempt to model this election? While it was a comendable attempt, you didn't have to post something just to get your name out there calling it one way or the other. No one reasonable would call your abilities in to question if you did not attempt to make a prediction on this insane situation in Mass. As you state throughout your posting justifying your prediction, there are way way too many factors making this election different and more difficult to model than typical elections. Being a special election, the use of such a major, unique issue as the health care legislation to push in either direction, the media meddling just to name a few reasons why it would have been better to not attempt to model this cluster$#%@ of an election.
Just a Mainer commented below the media is playing much to big a part in influencing the outcome of this election and it foreshadows much more media meddling in future elections. Regardless of your politics you shouldn't want them to play any role in influencing the outcome of any election. Conservatives may be happy with the "coverage" now, but it goes both ways and if this was Mississippi with a Dem making a surprisingly strong challenge to a Republican, conservatives would be complaining about the "liberal media bias".
Not to mention the "fair and balanced" reporting of Faux News is spinning this election out of any semblance of reality. If Brown wins, as Mainer aptly describes, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid should resign any future efforts as the "tide is turning" and a "tsunami" of "common-sense, patriotic, rational" voters will be kicking them out of office soon enough!
Ideologies aside, this is a statewide election in Mass, not a referendum on Obama or the Democrats as some of the media would like the country to believe. Sure Mass is a very blue state and it is surprising that Brown even has a chance, but all this is is a statewide election, where residents of MASS are deciding who to elect as their next US Senator, not a NATIONWIDE referendum on liberal politicians or liberal ideas. Yes, the same goes if a Dem somehow won a Senate seat in Mississippi. It would be shocking, but an indication of how residents of that state are feeling at this particular point in time. If this situation was not happening now and a Dem easily won Mass it wouldn't mean that the Dems and their ideas are more popular than ever, all it would mean is that the status quo in Mass remained intact and nothing more.
If Brown somehow wins tomorrow it will surely upset the status quo in Mass, but not because of some sort of displeasure with Obama, etc. People of all political stripes are flooding into Mass, donating money and time, the media continues to meddle, possibly influencing the outcome of the SPECIAL election and not simply reporting the news; this is no longer a Mass election, it has become a circus, with imposters attempting to tell the people of Mass how to vote because of greater ideological concerns and not for the welfare of the people of Mass.
Regardless of your political beliefs, if Brown wins tomorrow it will be a sad moment in American politics, with tremendously negative repercussions for the either country as a whole.
el cid:
You do realize that "tea party" ads are not coordinated with, or produced under the direction of, the Brown campaign, right? "Marcia" Coakley's ads, however, are personally APPROVED by her.
For a site that is about as heavily into demographics as any on the internet I find it rather odd that some one would think it racist for some one to question numbers distributions that deal with such matters. And no the numbers do not add up. The youth vote is very odd and I do not buy the Republican mantra that they are afraid they will have to pay more for health. I have worked with college age students for years and while they arestill in college they just do not seem to think in those terms. But maybe it is just those I have worked with. For them to now enmass shift to Brown seems odd. I think that you will find most are back in the school areas by now if not back in classes. I found what Elizabeth was saying to be interesting about the South Shore as that is where I called earlier today and those folks read is different. Could it be a town by town thing. About the only thing I know about that area is Otis and I doubt that is in play with the draw downs. Some one else posted minority numbers for Mass and those didn't seem right.Mass is 85+% white? Or did I miss read some thing?
Dudes, honestly "He"'s postings have me in tears!!!!
4.6 Marines??!!!!!
"Don't 'dye' on me"?!!!!
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am sputtering!!!!!!
@Charles
You do realize that "tea party" ads are not coordinated with, or produced under the direction of, the Brown campaign, right?
True, but when you lie down with dogs, well, you know...
Has Brown repudiated the Teabagger ads? If not, he's implicitly approving them. Don't pretend otherwise. It's insulting that you think we'd believe Brown doesn't want the Teabaggers to be saying those things.
Perhaps then you don't understand FEC rules prohibiting candidates from coordinating (either way) any political advertising by 527 groups?
Mainer:
I go to Hampshire College, quite possibly the most liberal college in the country. Not only am I not the only Obama-voting student I know who is voting for Brown, I know some usually devout Democrats who are on the fence (but who will probably end up voting for their party's candidate, lest the GOP obstructionate Obama). And yes, health costs are a major factor for some of us, particularly for those of us about to graduate, given that we're legally required to carry insurance here.
The same rules would apply to Coakley being unable to tell the SEIU or EMILY's List to NOT run certain political ads. See an FEC attorney for more specific info.
At this point who would still even be answering their phones to be polled?
donna:
Good point.
shrinkers:
However, I don't do election law, and nothing above is intended to -- nor does it in fact or at law -- create an attorney-client relationship and/or constitute legal advice, so you are going to have to consult with a specialist in that particular area of law for any further info.
@ dubbya and midpointman
How absurd are your statements? Did you watch the most recent State of the Union address?! It is quite obvious that Democrats are far from racist considering that anyone with eyes and an IQ above 10 could see that the Republican seats were filled predominately with white men, mostly old, with a few women sprinkled in for good measures. The Democrats seats were filled with every sort of AMERICAN: white, black, latino, asian, women, young, and old. From that simple observation it is quite apparent that Democrats elected by citizens of their states, who make up a majority of this country, are appealing and welcoming to ALL Americans, not just old white men who fill that a person of color or woman doesn't belong within their ranks.
SOU audience aside, minorities vote Democrat not because they are "scared" or "can't think for themselves", rather they vote Democrat because their interests are much more represented by Democrats. Is was LBJ who got the momentenous Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 through Congress and into law, it was Bill Clinton who was called by many blacks, "the first black president". While Trent Lott send our country would be better off if Strom Thurmond, a vehement bigot and racist, was elected president and Republicans in droves after Obama's election making racist statements, not just elected officials, but many everyday average Republican citizens liking Obama to a traditional African tribesman, sending emails with watermelon patches doting the White House lawn, etc. etc. etc.
You and anyone else you thinks that Democrats on the wrong side of the race issue, yes in case you were wondering that is being a bigoted, racist is laughable. The notion that a poll showing minorities voting for Brown as legitimate is further laughable, just a Pat Buchcannon wins South Floria in 2000! Please do us all a favor before you sit down and type away here, THINK, because you're not doing anyone favors, especially yourselves, by making such silly, ridiculous claims. Oh and check out the History Channel today, it might show you why minorities overwhelmingly support Democratic candidates. That is unless you live in Mississippi where you have the choice of celebrating MLK day or Robert E. Lee Day.
shrinkers:
If you read the comments about Rasmussen, the complaint has been that he tilts Republican until very close to an election -- then he drops the bias and starts getting accurate.
If his most recent poll shows Coakley winning, that fits the pattern.
This is one of the most hypocritical statements I've seen on this site. I salute you. It takes either monumental effort or amazingly levels of inborn talent to general statements so blatantly two-faced and asinine. A week and change again, you and others were arguing the Ras poll with the 2-point croakley lead _WAS_ the fix. That was the faked poll and in a week Ras would release their unfudged poll so as not to ruin their 'accuracy'. Ras was one of the first to show the tightening after all and back then, none of you flat-earthers would believe it. Now, that his supposedly 'fixed' poll is the only one holding up a Croakley lead (because it's a week old), it's all of a sudden become the 'unfixed' one, made for accuracy sake.
Seriously. Impressive job.
Denney:
The "most" recent State of the Union address was given by Bush on January 28, 2008. Would you like a complete list of the "Republican seats" taken by minorities (starting with Secretary of State Rice)?
Whether Charles chooses to ignore what shrinkers said about "implicit approval" (for which, the are NO FEC rules) or not, the fact remains -- the "tea party" ads in MA are hurting Brown with fence sitters among the Dems.
Brown very clearly told the National Republican Party to stay away!
While I personally find this a highly deceitful attempt to appear as something he is not, it is his call in his race.
Now, with all the steam in their jets, the ultra-Conservative set comes in with THEIR agenda (maybe conveniently forgetting Brown is not "one" with them on some of their core issues) -- and ends up tanking his chances.
There is no wake up call to moderate and liberal Democrats like the sound of Sarah Palin's voice... it just might end up being, what was the clarion call that got Martha Coakley elected!
Bart DePalma said...
I can hardly believe it and am unwilling to make my own prediction and jinx this. Nate has gone where I am unwilling to go. I am waiting until the actual returns come in.
~~~~~~~~~~
hmm ;) after looking like a fool in NY-23 you have been relatively cautious, not predicting a Brown win ~ Sooo you have learned your lesson lol.
Bart DePalma said...
If Brown wins, it will definitely be Miller Time!
January 15, 2010 3:16 PM
Bart DePalma said...
Brown has risen 4 points to just over 50%, Brown is probably maxed out.
January 17, 2010 11:05 PM
Bart DePalma said...
Brown is probably maxed out.
the only way Brown loses is for his supporters to stay home and drop him below 50% again.
January 18, 2010 9:11 AM
Bart DePalma said...
I expect to be celebrating whether Brown wins or Coakley squeaks it out.
January 18, 2010 4:48 PM
Calm down Bart :) as you're acting like a kid on Christmas Eve hoping/praying that G.I. Joe is underneath the tree come mornin' and will you be drinking Dom Pérignon if Coakley wins. ;)
Bart DePalma said...
Dem propagandist Chris Matthews
~~~~~~~~~~
You do know Matthews comes from a Rep family and he voted for cheney/bush in 2000.
Again, it is interesting:
Dems control the MA House: 144-16
Dems control the MA Senate: 54-5
but, but, but MA has elected Rep er RINO governor's recently ...
One word: compromise
and hard to believe there are (2) more liberal states than MA re: Dem controlled state houses, CT and HI and they both have Rep governors and another liberal state VT has a Rep governor, I digress ...
btw BDP, if Coakley wins tomorrow, please continue to keep hope alive! as you could be underneath a pile of rubble :( in Haiti.
Perspective!
as JFK said: we all breathe the same air ...
@ Denney
How absurd are your statements?
You're taking your comments directly from the Democrat talking points. Your review of history is laughable. I'll leave it as an exercise for you to find which party still has a former KKK member in the Senate.
You've proven my point. Your argument is based on what skin color you see, and thus you declare yourself not racist. Look, I'm not racist, that guy is black! Weee! Your entire "proof" that you are not racist is determined by you discriminating based on skin color.
I won't go into current economic and education policy here, and how Democrat policies actually keep the minorities in poverty... it'll be over your head.
@Elizabeth
I'm offended by Scott Brown's pseudo-populist 'truck' talk. I live on the South Shore of Boston,(Plymouth) and the signs here are virtually all Brown.
As bad as that was, what I found even more offensive was his smirking response to the curling iron up Coakley's butt comment. Its shows him to be the arrogant centerfold that he is. And he has daughters too. One would wish that if MA were going to run amok that it could have picked someone classier.
Thanks for the info, Elizabeth. Let's hope you and el cid are part of a larger counter trend.
This is very bad news. I suspect that Brown may even win by double digits tomorrow.
What does this say about the fall? It says that the GOP could win in an unprecedented wipe out unless the Democrats shape up. Right now, the Democrats are in worse shape than the GOP were in 2008 because the public believes that implementing bad policy is better than being unable to govern. Right now, the Democrats are unable to govern even with a supermajority in Congress. This could be a lot like the 1988 Canadian election when the Progressive Conservatives went from being the majority in the Canadian Parliment to just winning 2 seats.
Remember in 1994, the Democratic numbers really tanked the day that the congressional leaders announced that health care reform was dead. I suspect that it will happen again and the Democrats will find themselves trailing the GOP by 10 points in generic polls a week after the announcement.
@henwy
Seriously. Impressive job.
Thanks.
I could be wrong, but I don't think I was among those who were saying that Ras was fixing this particular poll -- for the simple reason that it's within his 6-week window when he usually tries to be accurate.
My memory could be playing tricks on me (I am an aging hippie, after all), so you're free to go back and check if you want. And you may well be able to correct my memory, for which I will thank you in advance.
I'm calling this a dead toss-up. If you take out polls with highly questionable qualities (Pajamas is the best example), that 2.2 for Brown shrinks fast.
I'm going to say this is a coin toss with the gravity favoring it to land heads 50.5 percent of the time, and I'm giving Coakley THAT side because of the location and machinery of Massachusetts, and not a decimal point more. I'm also going to say the winner is probably going to be within 3-5 percent ahead, and neither should crack 51 percent.
Now, go vote!
I think the Dems know better than to let a year of work on health care reform get thrown under the bus -- for reasons cited above by esong_98.
_________
Kort...
I like that sentiment.
Yeah, MA "Now, go vote!"
shrinkers said...
If you read the comments about Rasmussen, the complaint has been that he tilts Republican until very close to an election -- then he drops the bias and starts getting accurate.
If his most recent poll shows Coakley winning, that fits the pattern.
That's exactly right. Its a point that has been brought up several times in the last day. Its inexplicable that Rasmussen would not revise his week old poll the day before the election.....its almost unprofessional....which leads to the inevitable question: why not?
What I find particularly curious and somewhat awkward is that not one GOPer on this blog has picked up on this theme and made a comment. What are they afraid of?
Well it's good to see Mr. U still posting. Dan10Things is nowhere to be found. Dan ... Dan ... where are you Dan?
Not that I really want to bet you now anyway. Just want you and Mr. U and Chris to reflect on how misplaced your arrogance really was. This really is the problem with the liberal mindset overall ... you guys truly believe you know it all, your shit smells like roses, and that what you think is is right is right for everyone.
Now you are groveling and pleading like little babies. God forbid coakley wins ... it will be "see I knew it all along, full speed ahead".
Jerks.
Kort, how about neither major candidate gets 50%? As close as this could be right now and with a third candidate that could happen. I know it is probably a log shot but not that long.
Arthur, thanks for the come back and better insight. I forget the Maritime Academy students I work with will for the most part be leaving for work with very good health benefits either from a shipping company or the military. That probably does make a difference.
Charles said...
juvanya:
What will you be smoking tomorrow?
Your red rear end. ;)
No, you won't be.
@bleepul
Dan10Things is nowhere to be found. Dan ... Dan ... where are you Dan?
Is it possible Dan has a life outside a blog on which bleepul posts? Gosh, I don't know ... does anyone? (apparently, I don't....)
shrinkers said...
Has Brown repudiated the Teabagger ads?
Repudiated them? There are photos of him standing with teabaggers and their signs, and Brown is all smiles.
And speaking of hypocrisy, Crist in FLA is too liberal for teabaggers but 'liberal' brownie is just right?! There is a term for that kind of behavior......its called a political 'ho; not the idealistic patriot you are claiming to be.
TO shiloh
Dude you are a MORON. Chris Mathews voted for Bush and Cheney in 2000... ??
LINK? PROOF?
Charlies said
The "most" recent State of the Union address was given by Bush on January 28, 2008. Would you like a complete list of the "Republican seats" taken by minorities (starting with Secretary of State Rice)?
I would. Thanks in advance.
Shrinkers your definitely don't don't have a life. Your posts are 24-7.
I'm sure Dan has a life and that's fine and I don't really care to tell the truth. You saw that I was here on Monday like I said I'd be. He wasn't ... haven't seen a post from him in three days. He must not like the way things are looking ... and he was the one talking about people not having balls and what-not. Yet if Coakley wins I bet he's one of the first ones saying "I told you so".
D said...
TO shiloh
Dude you are a MORON. Chris Mathews voted for Bush and Cheney in 2000... ??
LINK? PROOF?
~~~~~~~~~~
Actually straight from the horses mouth. It was a show from 2003/2004 when he was arguing w/a Rep pundit who was suggesting he would always defend the liberal position no matter what, and he asked, who do you think I voted for in 2000? when he said he voted for cheney/bush.
Tweety has his moments and has been known to be a straight shooter and quite independent.
Whereas he worked for Carter and Tip O'Neill, he has wingers on his show quite often ie Delay, Coulter ~ NBC's Today, like MSNBC's Hardball, hosted more conservatives than liberals.
Matthews and Tom Ridge, a fellow Pennsylvanian, are good buddies.
Matthews also was a policeman once upon a time, so he's big on gun rights and personal protection ie Rep values.
and know, I won't call you a moron, just misinformed ...
take care
My final prediction
for The US Senate Race in Massachusetts on Tuesday January 19th 2010 is as follows. (The percentages will hopefully be correct. Just making an educated guess about the actual number of votes.)
Martha Coakley (D) --- 48.83 % 700,785 votes
Scott Brown (R) --- 47.35 % 686,575 votes
Joe Kennedy (I) --- 3.82 % 55,390 votes
Total votes --- 1,442,750
Margin of victory: 14,210
Democrats retain US Senate Seat. (fingers crossed)
Here's a good one I found from ncmom54 at HuffPo:
MASS Voters!
"Voting is like Driving - if you want to go FORWARD put it in 'D'
and if you want to go BACKWARD just put it in 'R'
and no, I won't call you a moron, just misinformed ...
D said...TO shiloh: Dude you are a MORON. Chris Mathews voted for Bush and Cheney in 2000... ?? LINK? PROOF?
Mathews was a long time Dem operative prior to becoming a TV talking head. His Dem bias culminating with his claim to have gotten a chill down his leg watching Obama is well known. However, shiloh is correct that Mathews claimed to have voted for W in 2000 when protesting that he was not in the bag for the Dems. He was probably lying, but no one knows but Mathews and God.
keetz4:
That offer was extended to Denney. Do your own homework.
Bart DePalma said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Just like we can only take what you say er spin at face value also as there's a very fine line between lying and spin, eh BDP! ;)
take care
btw, who in their right mind would admit to voting for cheney/bush ...
For the record, the former C.E.O. of G.E. which owns NBC, Jack Welch, was a big cheney/bush supporter and very happy they won er the Supreme Court appointed them president in 2000!
Mainer... All candidates under 50 percent is also a very real outcome, thanks for pointing that out (It's a very good possibility). I said 51 percent would be the probable and likely cap that neither would break.
I can't vote, I don't live in MA, which is why I said go vote, because it's all on you MA guys/gals now to make a decision.
Charles...
I gotta ask. Are you really including Rice as a seat? By seat, you are implying an elected Representative or Senator, or am I wrong?
And-by-the-way, why don't you just go ahead and provide everyone here that list of minority Republican Congressional members. It shouldn't take you too long to type it up.
Again CrossTarget are included. Why? You have said they are practically full of nonsense; so why are you giving them the time of day in your prediction - when only a few days ago you wouldn't even link to their poll out of fear of giving them any undue credibility.
Liat and everyone else who has mentioned it. I agree and something just does not seem right with these latest set of poll numbers. Why is Crosstarget included? Who really allows for 75% Hispanic vote for the Republican, not even Dubya got that high of a percentage. That should have definitely been weighted if the sample was too small. And other such questions. Nate, stop trying to make sense of the numbers and instead tell us why they don't make sense because I honestly don't think they do.
I'll let the tea baggers here bask for one night. The real poll that matters is tomorrow. Massachusetts being Massachusetts, I expect a Coakley victory. If not, then we might as well pack it up and go home. Our "Yes We Can" time in the limelight will be over.
@Charles:
Thanks for letting me know that the SOU I was referring to was under Bush. I guess my memory of how vividly striking the audience was blinded me to who was giving the speech. Yes, I'd love to here all of the "Republican seats" that were taken by minorities and women. Please include the list of "Democratic seats" filled by minorities and women. Overwhelming majority is what I'm referring to so please don't be some painfully ridiculous in your citation of Sec. Rice and the like.
@dubbya
First of all your name is after a president who is a war criminal, those are the facts, no matter what party you belong to. Too bad the courage to try him and his admininstration for his crimes against humanity, for falsely leading us into war, maiming and murdering thousands of humans beings, yes this includes Americans who are "fighting for freedom." So I don't expect you to understand why calling Democrats racist is patently absurd and laughable to anyone with any semblance of historical and current events.
You probably tout the Republicans as the party of Lincoln. Starting with FDR the modern Democratic and Republicans started to be formed. With the 1968 Democratic Convention, widespread abandoning of the Democratic party by white men was in full force and now you have the modern parties today, with a mostly older, white, male Republican party and an all-inclusive Democratic Party. So after this brief history lesson maybe you'll see why calling Dems racist is just silly.
Robert Byrd may have been in the KKK, but since he renunciation of his misguided ways, he has worked tirelessly for the less fortunate and for the advancement of minorities. Strum Thurmond never renounced his views and went to the grave a racist and a bigot. How many active members of the KKK are currently in the Republican Party? This might seem outlandish in today's world were the RNC chair is black, but would could Republicans do after being destroyed in 06 and 08; seeming more and more the party of white men?! Ever heard of the White Citizens Council, now the Conservative Citizen Council? How about the "academies" throughout the South, evading school integration to this day? Democrats don't belong to these organizations.
What party passed Civil Rights legislation many times over the years and what party stood in the way of it time and again?
Citing one or even a few minority Republicans misses the point entirely. Token, face saving candidates and appointments will always be there. What party has and continues to fight for the advancement and rights of minorities and women on a consistent basis? I suppose voting for Democrats in overwhelming number year after year is because minorities are just doing the bidding of their Democratic masters? Especially when they are minority elected officials themselves.
Yes, I'd love to hear your theories on how Democratic education and economic policies keep minorities improvised, but your right I probably won't understand the trickling down of it all so please don't bother.
@bleepul
Shrinkers your definitely don't don't have a life. Your posts are 24-7.
Well, Real Life is just a crutch for people who can't handle political blogs.
Win or lose, Mitt’s getting some credit for Brown’s big MO: http://mittromneycentral.com/2010/01/17/win-or-lose-mitts-getting-some-credit-for-browns-big-mo/
James said..
The phone banks for Coakley were closed down today . . no one wanted to call in her behalf. I made many calls for Scott Brown Saturday and Sunday but had to stop because people said that they were definitely voting for Scott and didn't want to be called anymore.
Why do GOPers lie so much? Is it in the DNA? Coakley's phone banks were not down. And there were many people, including me, who was calling today. In fact it was reported in the WSJ, one of your papers, that Coakley's GOTV made 500k calls between Thursday and Saturday.
So please stop with the misinformation.
Here's my prediction from my "primary voters" model. I would not be surprised if it was insanely inaccurate, and I give everyone permission in advance to make fun of me tomorrow night (and the wingers to get a jump-start right away). But if I'm right, you heard it here first.
Total vote count - 1.7 million (about 40% of registered voters).
Coakley - 56%
Brown - 42%
Kennedy/other - 3%
If there are less than 1.7 million votes, the percentage for Brown increases until you hit about 1.3 million - odds are about 50/50 then.
Below 1.3 million, the Coakley percentage again increases -- less than 1.3 million votes is a definite Coakley win.
Above 1.7 million, Coakley gets 4.5 votes for every 2 Brown votes, so the Coakley victory percentage increases rapidly.
Yes, this is wildly at odds with all current polls. So have fun!
I know it's a very intensive task so I'll save Charles the time:
Source: http://www.ethnicmajority.com/congress.htm
Senate: Republicans: 1 - Mel Martinez (FL) - retiring
Democrats: 4
House: Republicans: 4
Democrats: 70
Congressional Total:
Republicans: 5
Democrats: 74
*ZERO Black Republican members
*ZERO Asian Republican members
Dubbya and Charles I guess you're right, calling Democrats racist is completely reasonable and logical.
Oh and dubbya yes in the context of our discussion, I do base discrimination and prejudice on RACE. But, you've shed the light that Democratic policies are why minorities are more likely to be impoverished than whites and not historical contextual reasons such as racism, discrimination, and prejudice; both enshrined in law and de facto, often at the behest of Republicans. I've been so misguided by Democratic talking points to realize that Republicans are the party of inclusion and tolerance and Democrats are the racist, bigots of the political world. Thank you.
Coakley's phone banks today: You will be shocked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnOFNrXZ0Pg&feature=player_embedded
You wingers are all alike. That clip has been all over the internet today. Just for the record.....look at the clock.......its after ten at nite. No phone bank goes beyond 9 PM.
Nice try.......now go troll somewhere else.
Mr. Universe said..."Massachusetts voters are going to wake up on Wednesday morning with one hell of a hangover. They're going to roll over in bed and see Scott Brown laying there and immediately think, "Oh dear God. What have I done?". It seemed like a good idea at the time."
The reason this unprecedented shocker is happening is because the people rolled over, saw a radical Marxist sleeping next to them and said "that's not the same person I met at the bar."
i gave some slightly bad numbers earlier and wish to correct i quoted mass at 85% white the true number is 80-81% as i lumped in "hispanic white" with other whites. i stand by the assertion that the minority vote even if 80% coakley is not likely to be decisive.
And though i didnt comment on it birdboy is right that young voters are actually a bit more likely to go for coakley. So liberals should be calling all the single ladies and 18-25ers they can. Us 36 year old men are on the other side.
I actually watched MSNBC tonight half hoping to be talked out of it but was disappointed by the crap they put out- one video where brown is pretty clearly addressing a crowd and not the miscreant who shouts a rude comment about coakley to him.
Another was shown where in 2008 he stated "he wasnt sure" about obamas 18 year old mother being married when he was born. I find the comment about as relevant as martha calling Schilling a "yankee fan" and if that and the 30 year old cosmo spread are the best they have on Brown hes had a pretty clean public life.
Gen Sherman and Denney:
I am compiling 2008 GOP "seats" (yes, I am including Rice as she was in fact seated even though not elected) who were present for the SOTU. Not just limited to the current make-up of Congress. Then YOU can list the same as to Democrats.
Republican Joseph Cao ~ LA-2 is Asian, the first Vietnamese American, as well as the first native of Vietnam, to serve in Congress ...
but w/out going into the why's and wherefore's of his election Jefferson's frozen assets ;) he's an anomoly ie one and done.
carry on
Jason said.....
I'd be shocked to find out later that OFA didn't bring its GOTV brilliance to bear on Coakley's behalf but, being impatient, I'd also like to know now =)
OFA did....I am part of OFA's contribution to Coakley's GOTV.
Keith Ellison, the first Muslim elected to Congress -- also not entirely white -- my district here in Minnesota. A Democrat. Way cool guy, too.
@shiloh
Republican Joseph Cao
Also the only Repubilcan in Congress (in either house) to vote for Heath Care Reform.
@Charles
Give it up man you are just looking sad and silly. The scoreboard doesn't lie and it is and has been a blowout!
You can argue over many other political issues, but Republicans are not elected because of their overwhelming appeal to minorities and women. Accuse Democrats of many other things, but racist is certainly not one of them.
To Denney: I think you fail to understand the mechanics of GOP internal power struggles. Steele became chair in large part for reasons having nothing to do with race. Having worked as a Fox talking head and buttered up the more populist wings of the GOP allied interest groups he was the populist/Tea Bag/Palin/Huckabee alternative to another Corp Rat drone or someone who paid his dues on a state committee. For the same reason the Corp Rats have largely sat on their hands and refused to contribute in meaningful amounts. Instead there has been a drum beat of insider leaks on petty scandals designed to force him out. In response he keeps daring them to fire him which they so far lack the balls to do. W trashed the GOP brand within the tent as well as with the general public. Dumping Steele will be taken by many Conservative Movement types as one more reason to push for a third party and they don't need much pushing at this point. This would leave the insiders with a party line that could die in two or three election cycles the way the Whigs did.
Charles...
I suppose if it makes you happy, include Rice if you want. However, there is a major difference in an appointed position vs. an elected position.
Barack Mugabe: the people rolled over, saw a radical Marxist sleeping next to them and said "that's not the same person I met at the bar."
As Jon Stewart used to say: Whaaaaaa?
Obama has been Mr. Moderate. The health care bill is a moderate one: no single payer, no public option, private insurers, private doctors, private hospitals.
The bank bailout was a moderate one: no nationalization, and the larger banks have repaid their TARP funds.
Any tax proposals have been moderate ones. You'd think that rates about where they were during the Clinton years--and then mostly only for the wealthy--wouldn't raise accusations of radical Marxism.
His foreign policy has been a moderate one, in particular scaling up in Afghanistan and reevaluating in the summer of 2011.
And if he were so radical, the left wing of the party wouldn't be so pissed off so frequently.
Really, this portrayal of Obama as some leftist figure is pure rhetoric. Unfortunately, such blatant falsehoods can be very effective at motivating people to go to polls in special elections.
In the meantime, Republicans offer...what? Look at Scott Brown, who says he opposes the health care reform bill because it will raise taxes (only on a small portion of Americans, and at least it doesn't pretend that everything is free), increase the deficit (a falsehood according to CBO scoring), and cut Medicare (which is internally incoherent with the supposed concern about our terrible deficit).
Well, I suppose it's easy to run on the free lunch platform. Both parties do it to some extent. But it's not a sustainable form of governance. If people vote for the policies that got us into this mess, then we get what we deserve.
Barack Mugabe said,
the people rolled over, saw a radical Marxist sleeping next to them and said "that's not the same person I met at the bar."
I guess they had their Beerack goggles on. :-D
scott said...
Steele
~~~~~~~~~~
Please, Steele's election as RNC chairman had everything to do w/race.
There's disingenuous song and dance rationalizations and then there are wingers trying to spin their train wreck, Steele ...
Gen Sherman and Denney:
I will be arguing that the Democrats are in fact racist for their policies holding back minorities.
@Charles
Oh yeah?! Well, You're more racist than I am. nyeah
Mr. Universe:
I doubt that.
Charles said...
Mr. Universe:
I doubt that.
~~~~~~~~~~
But you're not sure. ;)
and as always, freedom of speech gives one the right to argue, even if no one is listening ...
I wonder how many points they gave for the dirty tricks team that is rolling in MA as I type. They have "won" many a democrat election in the past, why should we believe they can't pull the votes out of their hat again.
Also don't forget dumb voters will see Kennedy on the ballot and instinctively pull the lever for him.
Papa Ray
Denney:
Secretary of State Rice (keep in mind that Colin Powell was actually the FIRST African-American to reach that post)
Attorney General Gonzales (first Hispanic)
Secretary of Commerce Gutierrez
Secretary of Labor Chao (first Asian and woman)
Secretary of HUD Jackson
Sen. Sununu (R-NH)
Sen. Martinez (R-FL)
Rep. Cole (R-OK)
Bianca Gonzalez
Tara Kunkel
Diane Lopes
Irvin Mayfield
Alma Riojas
Tatu Msangi
Donna Shalala
Tara Morrison
Shealah Craighead
I can keep going, as there were more. Don't forget that Abe Lincoln was a REPUBLICAN too.
From Nate's analysis of intrade.....he's looking at a one day chart for Obama in Sept/2008:
"It's pretty obvious that this is not some sort of random walk. Rather, every so often, some individual trader or some small group of traders are shorting all the Obama contacts in bulk and resetting the entire market. The markets then organically climb back upward until the rogue trader strikes again six or eight hours later. The volumes on these contracts have been very high for the past week as a result."
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/intrade-betting-is-suspcious.html
I suspect if he charted today's intrade trading for Coakley, her chart would look very similar to Obama's with the same kind of action apparent.
@Charles
Are Too!
Geoff said......
A cameraman working on a ballot integrity initiative with Americans for Limited Government Foundation was wrapped up in a large Martha Coakley campaign sign by her supporters as he tried to video the campaign rally."
Thanks for the view from a tea bagger organization written up in a far right paper. Give it a rest, Geoff.......you've won. Why don't you spend the rest of the evening practicing voting for your big day tomorrow.
Charles said...
Don't forget that Abe Lincoln was a REPUBLICAN too.
~~~~~~~~~~
lol and Attila was a Hun.
and after cheney/bush, Abe is surely rolling over in his grave ...
CHARLES
who drafted your list & do you even know anything about these people ?
Sununu ???
Shalala [a DEM - Clinton appointee who is lebanese]
I mean WTF ???
also your 'Republican' list is weak - a lame claim to fame
Geoff said incessantly......
Obama is governing from the left, farther left than any Administration in history, if you look at the entirety of his policies.
Hey Geoff, you ever see a political spectrum? Every president since Reagan has ruled center right. Obama is ruling center and center/left....that's why it looks so left to you. And that explains why no matter how incompetent the Rs are....and we saw how bad they were for 8 years.........Americans come running back because they get scared when they leave the familiarity of the center right....lots of wars, flag waving and rich people getting richer. Maybe one day they were learn who the real enemy is. It sure as hell isn't Obama.
David said....
Brown's win needn't derail health care reform. I hope it forces Democrats to accept SOME level of Republican buy-in, to adopt some of the better Republican ideas.
There are moderate Republicans who are willing to work with Democrats, but they want some of their ideas included.
I wonder if you have been following the health care debate this year. It doesn't sound like it based on the naiveté I see expressed in your posts. Should brown get elected, we won't have health care reform....period. You can take that to the bank.
DCM in FL said...
INSTEAD RR release a NATIONAL push poll today taken over the weekend asking who the country wants to win in MA...
DCM, how do you know it was a push poll?
DCM in FL:
I drafted my list, and I do know something about these people. Sununu Is a Republlican, and Shalala is a Dem / Clinton appointee. As for your "WTF ???" did you read Denney's original post?
I know the polling doesn't look good for Coakley but I am from MA. and spoke to several family members and friends today. Those who are not politcally active are all going to be sure to vote and they are getting all their friends and kids to vote for her. There is a real puch now to get out the Dem vote. I just have a strong feeling that the polls are wrong. I'm hoping so as much as I respect Nate and his intelligence, I'm thinking that 25% chance may pay off today.
GO MARTHA!!!
ARTHUR--
Holy god, I'm a Hampshire kid too! Who are you? I'm not registered to vote in Mass. but if I were, I too would be voting Brown (though I've always been a rightie--you can imagine how much fun that is on our fair campus). Definitely hope you see this.
Hmmm. @ He.
Might I suggest that it was the GOP that sent you to Iraq with a lot of Democratic support so maybe you should spread your hate around a bit.
Secondly, I suggest you vote for whatever candidate improves education in the state of Massachusetts. Soldiers who perish in your arms, die. They do not dye. Also, I think you mean full rather than fool.
So, I'm gonna just put your political ideas to the side, and before you bash me I lost friends in Iraq who could spell properly, so lets not go there buddy.
bleepul said...
Well it's good to see Mr. U still posting. Dan10Things is nowhere to be found. Dan ... Dan ... where are you Dan?
Not that I really want to bet you now anyway. Just want you and Mr. U and Chris to reflect on how misplaced your arrogance really was. This really is the problem with the liberal mindset overall ... you guys truly believe you know it all, your shit smells like roses, and that what you think is is right is right for everyone.
Now you are groveling and pleading like little babies. God forbid coakley wins ... it will be "see I knew it all along, full speed ahead".
Jerks.
Who's grovelling and pleading? I still think that Coakley wins by 10, and I'd still be shocked if MA elects a Republican to the Senate. I'm not hiding from that. So if she does end up winning by a decent margin, why shouldn't I be able to say that I saw it coming? I've said all along that if Brown wins, you'll get a kudos from me for having had a better read on the mood here in MA. Heck, I'd even admit you had a better read if Coakley wins a squeaker (say, 2 points). Why such hostility?
Also, you accuse me of misplaced arrogance, but all the votes aren't even cast and counted, yet here you are doing a victory dance. What gives?
It was clear from day one - when Martha Coakley jumped the gun and announced her candidacy for the Senate, before the good old boys had a chance to push forward one of their own that if she did win it would be a miracle.
Watching the news casts it has also been clear that everything is stacked against her. The news commentators have been talking about what a horrible campaign she has wages. As a part of that campaign I don't see where it was so horrible. It was a very good, hard fought campaign. She didn't do it in the style of the good old boys, which Massachusetts is used to, she changed the paradigm. If she wins, hopefully that paradigm will continue.
Every one is raving about Ted Kennedy and his 50 year career in the Senate. I think it is God's justice if Martha wins. A woman, running a great campaign wins the biggest Old Boys Seat - in which many women were mistreated and oppressed, used for their bodies and more. None of that comes to the fore. I am more than a little tired of the undeserved heroic rhetoric.
I also don't see anyone writing about how the plan in the beginning was for Martha to lose the primary, the guy who lost was to run for the Senate seat and the Kennedy brothers were running someone else for the State seat then vacated. This, however, is a better plan - Martha loses, a Republican takes over and at the end of this shortened term the real boys come back in for the seat, which they couldn't do with Martha there - she would probably be re-elected because she works hard in her job.
Too much negative Martha rhetoric for that not to be the plan in place today. Every news cast and panel and telling the world what a horrible campaigner Martha has been and subseuqently - the suggestion she wouldn't make a good Senator.
I am voting for Martha because she would make an excellent Senator. She is the only one I know who hasn't made herself rich from her politcal jobs, but has done a substantail job in everything she has undertaken. VOTE FOR MARTHA!
"When I worked for the NDP (Canada's center-left party)"
Any other Canadians or ex-pats here find this hilarious? The NDP is "center-left"? Which party would you label as "left" then, and how freaking far left are they??
I would like to see more discussion about landlines here. Some studies show that younger voters tend to have only cell phones, and have tended to vote democrat in the past. (http://poq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/70/1/88) Did this survey utilize only land lines? Such a difference could lead to additional errors in estimation.
Then again, young people tend not to vote as much. Maybe this offsets it?
Get out and vote, people!
Notice how they put the Rasmuseen poll that's over 7 days old, next to the most recent polls - to make it look like Coakley has a chance...
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