The Washington Post ran an article in conjunction with a new poll it conducted about the 2012 Republican presidential field. With all the Afghanistan focus—and an unusually busy week on campus—I just haven’t had time to sit down and think about the poll results until now.
The poll shows a highly fractured Republican electorate. Asked who best reflects the “core values of the Republican Party,” none of the names surveyed received more than 18 percent support, with Sarah Palin leading at that level, followed by John McCain (13 percent), Mike Huckabee (7 percent), Mitt Romney (6 percent), and Newt Gingrich (4 percent). “Other” got 23 percent and “No leader/no opinion” got a whopping 28 percent. Tim Pawlenty couldn’t have been too happy he didn’t rate at all, even if he claims otherwise and now seems to want to seize the darkhorse role.
What to make of these results and, moreover, what do they tell us about the possibilities for the 2012 GOP presidential primary? With all the usual caveats about how far out we are—although I should remind readers that the so-called “invisible primary” has in some senses already begun, and regular Iowa and New Hampshire visits will start in about 11 months—the obvious conclusion is that the GOP is presently leaderless. This doesn’t mean there aren’t leaders or leadership, a frame national Democrats are all-too-happy to insert. It’s just that there is no obvious star, and barely something close to an heir apparent. Subtract out the 13 percent share given to McCain, the party’s 2008 nominee, by reflex, and Bush’s laughable 1 percent, and you have only 35 percent of Republicans naming somebody who is a potential contender for the 2012 nomination. Some of that 23 percent for “Other” include names, like Pawlenty's, of possible candidates, but still.
Tomorrow, I’m going to do a bit more 2012 speculation—scenarios where this or that candidate emerges as the new face/identity of the GOP—but for the moment, I mostly want to raise a few points about the poll.
The obvious starting point is Palin. If 18 percent is a small number, it’s large by comparison to the rest of the field. This may not make me feel more comfortable about my bet with Nate, but her support represents a fixed, core group of cultural conservatives who love her and are going to be with her if she runs. Put another way, because she attracts those who are intense and likely to commit early, I don’t think that as the 60 or so percent who didn’t name anyone start to line up they will do so in the proportions that those four names got in this Post poll. That is, Palin's support is deep but not necessarily wide. As the Post's Dan Balz notes in an analytical follow-up to the Post's cover story pegged to the poll, Palin "has particular appeal to the loyal followers of Limbaugh and Beck, two of the most popular conservative talk show hosts in the country." No shocker there, of course, but remember that the votes of those who roguely commit early and earnestly still count the same as those who are taking a wait-and-see attitude. An intense vote from an early adopter and a reluctant vote from a late adopter count the same: once. Just ask Howard Dean.
Second, I’m surprised Huckabee didn’t do better, especially given how strongly he finished in 2008, and despite having so few resources. To me, he’s the real wild card in the 2012 race. Why? Two reasons. First, if he does run, he complicates and threatens Palin’s possible bid more than anyone else. Second, figuring out the calculus of whether he runs or not in the first place is tricky. He seems to like doing TV, and by next year the opportunity costs for him to run in 2012 may be too high.
Finally, I have to say something about Gingrich. Though my politics don’t much line up with his, I like Gingrich. You may think his big ideas are kooky, and some are, but at least he has big ideas. He’s a thinker. He also knows something how the government in Washington actually runs (and not to foolishly shut it down)--unlike the rest of the field, including Romney. And the fact that a politician who lost his last substantive electoral job over a decade ago can still register 4 percent—a small share until you consider that Huckabee and Romney, who were in the national spotlight just a year or so ago, got little more—says something about his staying power. The other thing about Gingrich: He personally went down in flames, but unlike GWBush, who ruined the modern GOP’s brand and destroyed its majorities, the congressional majorities Gingrich, more than any other Republican brought to Washington, were still intact when he exited political stage right. Also, and despite his potentially backfiring move of supporting Dede Scozzafava over Doug Hoffman in the GOP’s moment-of-truth NY23 House special election, Gingrich is the one guy in the field who has sufficient legitimacy among both the Washington/policy/insider wing of the party and the base/cultural/heartland conservative wing to unify the Republicans. Something in my gut says he’s a guy not to ignore.
Anyway, I will game this out a little more—contextualizing the race based on some assumptions about the state of the economy and politics by 2011-12; who decides to run and who doesn’t; and what the GOP primary electorate looks like—tomorrow. In the interim, I'm curious to hear readers thoughts about the poll and its meaning.
12.03.2009
The Very Open GOP Field
by Tom Schaller @ 3:04 PM
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178 comments
Tom, regarding Newt G., you are right. He’s a severely damaged potential candidate for many reasons but no one could accuse him of not being smart and not having ideas.
As a Republican I am pushing for the nomination of a relatively unknown but unquestionably well-respected and competent conservative to get the nomination in 2012.
Someone who is very bright, steady, boring even, but with rock-solid fiscal bonafides who can appeal to right-leaning voters and true independents.
Gov. Mitch Daniels, R-IN
O/T CRAP
Unfortunately it doesn't look like Palin is running in 2012.
http://snipurl.com/tjksa
Now we're stuck with the boring Romney, TPaw, and the gay guy from South Dakota.
Walker,
you must be joking about mitch daniels.
He was Shrub's first director of OMB. He inherited a 5 trillion dollar surplus and blew it.
Plus, he has hair plugs. America is not ready to elect a guy with hair transplants.
Another thing that will kill Daniels - as gov he happily accepted porkulous funds.
What about Lou Dobbs, he's fiscal.
oops. I forgot. Lou Dobb's wife is mexican. The base will never accept a mexican first lady.
Walker, Cintra seems to be something of a dirty word in Texas. How do you think his one-time (for the next 75 years at least) cash-in to get the budget into the black is going to play nationally. Especially in places where "privatization" is going to be an even harder sell?
By the time the 2012 election primaries heat up the state budget his state budget is going to headed in he opposite direction from everyone else's (assuming he doesn't manage to keep dumping assets).
That's the rub of shortterm sales like that. The shine comes off pretty quickly.
Maybe we should start a Draft Dick campaign for Dick Cheney?
We haven't had a Dick in the WH since Tricky Dick was driven out. Of course Shrub liked to swagger and swing his D, but went out in the end with nothing left to show for his 8 years in the WH.
I like your analysis, and I agree re: Gingrich. Smart guy, willing to think outside the talking points, but damaged goods with high negatives, including his multiple wives.
But aren't you overthinking it? The only reason George W. Bush got the nomination in 2000 was because he was the guy Republicans were sure could raise the most money. And so they lined up behind him early.
Figure out who can raise the most money in today's GOP, watch the usual suspects from the lobbies, c-suites and think tanks line up behind him, and you have your nominee. The GOP nomination process, I think, even favors this path to nomination -- get it done early leaving lots of time for fund-raising.
Or is anyone prepared to argue that the GOP Leopard has changed its spots in this regard?
Well the poll mostly shows that Republicans are ultraconservative, driven mostly by hatred of Obama and his policies, and are generally dissatisfied with their own party's performance. That much we knew and of course it bodes very well for Palin.
But I'm inclined to agree with you that she won't run (or at least won't be a contender), and that the party establishment won't nominate her if they feel that they have a serious chance of beating Obama (much as the Democratic establishment bulldozed Kerry past the frontrunners just before the primaries in 2004).
(((If))) we can count Palin or a Palin effect out of the equation, then it becomes a strictly small-time assortment of mediocre talent.
Gingrich is interesting (and quite intelligent), but he is very old, carries too many scars, and is far too impulsive and bombastic. His intellectual prowess may prove threatening to the GOP voters who would have backed Palin, Bush, or someone down-homey like Pawlenty or the Huckster. This is not a party that admires the high-minded (and Newt is [gasp!] a college professor). On the other side, his personal style may be too much attack dog and too little qualitative or relatable for the party establishment.
Then we go to the Governors: Romney, Huckabee, Pawlenty, and Barbour. All conservative, mostly with (perceived, not real) impressive records in their largely Democratic states (excepting Barbour). Romney, the (perceived, not real) economic expert probably stands at the top of the pack and will be the best-funded. He can also sweep the business con and perhaps neocon votes while the rest squabble for the fundamentalists. If the pack is well enough divided, a well-known candidate like Romney could win even without encompassing the ideology that most Republicans in the WaPo poll embrace.
Lastly, the field is open to wild cards at this point, especially if and when Palin finally flames out. Thune could be serious, so could Daniels (although neither are particularly exciting candidates and Daniels does not seem to want to run).
My guess is it's Romney if the Repubs think they can win, Huckabee if the economy has largely recovered and they still think they have a chance, and if they don't, then they'll let the base nominate some sort of outsider.
I'm still hoping for a Palin/Bachmann ticket.
Both are shameless enough to think they can handle the job.
Looking at the breakdowns, it seems like your typical republican wants more focus on fiscal issues and small government than the party is currently arguing for. This is probably partially reflective of the policies of GW Bush, who did very little in his term of office to cut government spending, either before or after the financial crisis hit.
Palin polls very well with GOP women, but they are significantly less than half of the Republican party. Still, if Huckabee doesn't run (and he has little incentive to if he feels his prospects would be better in 2016), she could likely pull a lot of his support.
I'd be curious to see how Palin support overlaps with those who are more conservative on social vs. fiscal issues. My guess is most Palin supporters are conservative on both, while those who are very fiscally conservative but moderate socially support other candidates.
Newt is smart, very politically connected, and actually has some ideas. He's also damaged goods due to his affair.
The fact no one is pulling over 20% right now is good news for all of the candidates. There are a ton of undecided voters to be scooped up by a Pawlenty or similar candidate if he happens to catch fire. Romney also may be able to position himself as fiscally conservative and socially moderate, although his record may not fully support those positions.
Sarah Palin's greatest strength is that when times are tough people want to vote for an outsider. Despite being given the 2008 VP Nomination, she has clearly distanced herself from the mainstream republican party. Her weakness is her ability to speak intelligently about issues, especially off the cuff. She needs to learn how to better parrot the ideals of fiscal conservatives to pull their support. Fair or not, she's percieved as an intellectual lightweight; coupled with her two X chromosomes she could have a lot of trouble breaking through the old boys club.
Tom:
The poll shows a highly fractured Republican electorate. Asked who best reflects the “core values of the Republican Party,” none of the names surveyed received more than 18 percent support, with Sarah Palin leading at that level, followed by John McCain (13 percent), Mike Huckabee (7 percent), Mitt Romney (6 percent), and Newt Gingrich (4 percent). “Other” got 23 percent and “No leader/no opinion” got a whopping 28 percent. Tim Pawlenty couldn’t have been too happy he didn’t rate at all, even if he claims otherwise and now seems to want to seize the darkhorse role.
Asking who best reflects the “core values of the Republican Party” is not a particularly useful question on its own terms because the core values are not defined by either the pollster or respondents. It would have been far more useful for the pollster to offer some concrete values like lower taxes, smaller government, strong military, etc.
The question is an even worse proxy for a horserace poll because a GOP voter can think a number of candidates reflect his or her view of the core values of the Party, but prefer one more than the others for other reasons.
The problem with running on a balance budget platform is a lack of credibility.
The republicans have never balanced a budget. Not Reagan. Not Nixon. Not Ford. Not Bush. And especially not Shrub.
And then when they start asking specific questions about what will he cut - what's the guy gonna say? Medicare. Shrub's Prescription drug benefits. Social Security. Defense. There are no painless solutions. And the public does not like pain. IF they did, then Cheney and Bush would have volunteer for VietNam.
Tom, while the core values question is important, the more direct "who would you vote for if it was today" question deserves some play:
Palin: 17%
Huckabee: 10%
Romney: 9%
McCain: 7%
Other: 15%
Not Vote: 2%
No Opinion: 40%
Palin's gap has narrowed considerably here among actual candidates, from 11 points to 7 compared with core values, and the other leading candidates look a lot stronger, especially given the much larger group of undecideds (which is not strange this early on). And wow McCain seems to have some staying power for someone said to be so unpopular within his own party.
Another dark horse who seems to go unnoticed is Frothy Mixture, an ardent fundamentalist conservative who is presently the only candidate actually in the race.
It's incredible to think "No Opinion" CRUSHES palin by a 2 to 1 margin.
Jacob said...
Another dark horse who seems to go unnoticed is Frothy Mixture, an ardent fundamentalist conservative who is presently the only candidate actually in the race.
==============================
LOL!
The republicans have NEVER-EVER nominated a Catholic for either President or Vice President.
tolerance is not a teabagger value.
Frothy Mixture has more skeletons in his closet then Palin has F-Me pumps.
@Jacob
He's filed? I thought Rick (rhymes with Dick!) was still just openly considering it? Money quote: "...I hate to be calculating, but I see that 2012 is not just throwing somebody out to be eaten, but it's a real opportunity for success."
@Jenny
Yeah, so is Mr. Rogers (I keep forgetting his name) and Mitt is LDS. Sure there are people raised on Chick Tracts that would rather take communion of horse piss and fire ants than vote for a RCC member. But sooner or later, as the number of really hardcore social generic Christian conservatives candidates winnow down, the GOP is going to do it.
That is a very small slice of his issues.
Dennis, why do you hate America so much?
@ Dwight
He hasn't filed but he is unabashedly campaigning in primary states and intimating that he will run more than others. Maybe not technically a candidate yet but certainly closer to it than anyone else.
@Jenny
Good point. Frothy's Catholicism, much like Romney's Mormonism, may cause doubts about him with the fundamentalist right.
That said, in fairness to the Grand Old Party I should point out that they have indeed nominated one Catholic for the Vice Presidency: Representative William E. Miller of New York, who was Barry Goldwater's running mate in the 1964 election.
Jacob.
Nice catch on Miller. Digya know he's Stephanie Miller's dad.
Ya know, I heard Pat Buchanan once say in an interview that his Catholicism was an issue in the south when he ran for the nomination in 1996.
As far to the right as Pat is, good ole boys still had problems with the vatican.
I don't know the timing of this poll and whether or not it came post mortem of the police officer killings in Tacoma but we on the west coast aren't likely to forget and forgive Huckabee for that one. As much as I like Huck, that hit a raw nerve.
Whether Huckabee was solely responsible or not, that perception is likely to haunt him. Fire up the Willie Horton ads.
So the remaining question is does Palin even want to run? Or does she just want the spotlight and move on to something else? I personally hope she runs as she is the least qualified of all those candidates and would likely lose. That way both Tom and Nate win.
Of course the SNL disaster theme might also occur. God help us all.
While this poll is interesting, its pretty meaningless because...
1. It's way too early. Let's see how the mid-terms play out and which kind of Republicans can get elected. Just curious, where was Obama on this poll for the Democrats in 2005?
2. Who the Repubs nominate will depend entirely on how things are going in 2012. Are troops home from Afghanistan? Where is the unemployment rate? Has Obama delivered on "change"?
That being said, I'll go Romney.
@Jacob
Whew. I thought for a moment I'd missed out on the chucklefest frenzy that is sure to ensue when Frothy Mixture throws his hat into the ring...whatever kind of ring that may be. :)
On the RCC, Jenny has a point. Miller was one man's pick, not the GOP's pick. One man who is so very far from where the GOP "base" is today, and '64 went very poorly.
Blogger Dwight said...
"But sooner or later, as the number of really hardcore social generic Christian conservatives candidates winnow down, the GOP is going to do it."
I don't think it's necessarily an issue of "I would never vote for an RC" but one of relatability.
The Evangelical Protestant churchgoers, the single-issues crusaders, the rapture-fetish cultists, the extreme nativists, and other elements of the social conservative fringe have something very very specific in mind in terms of the values and experience of a candidate. Very little deviation is allowed if one wants their trust.
The anti-death and anti-war stances of the RCC might put the candidate's religious judgment into question even if they are personally pro-war and pro-death.
Similarly a church experience with a rigid ancient hierarchy might not be relatable to voters whose religious experience feeds on charismatic preachers and personal involvement. Especially when that church and its doctrine are ruled by foreigners. And showing off one's church life is very important to these voters.
And the list goes on...The evangelical movement holds "man is saved by faith alone" as an important credo. Catholics don't work like that.
I think a Catholic would have an easier time with these voters than say a Mormon or a Jew, but not by much. With several evangelicals running, it would be hard for a Catholic to connect with the GOP fringe. As Jenny astutely pointed out, even a far-right bigoted isolationist candidate like Buchanan (the only Catholic ever to win a GOP presidential primary contest) had religious problems with his right flank.
My ranks.
1) Romney--if Obama is 45%+ in polls
2) Gingrich--if Obama is really vulnerable.
3) Barbour--Could be the Southern play with Huck tarnished
4) Jindal--Still not even 40 though
@Mr. Universe
While those tragic murders could give the Huckster some problems, I think it would be a hard issue for his opponents to raise. After all, Huck was Governor of a state with far more draconian criminal laws than Romney's MA, TPaw's MN, or Palin's AK. Gingrich of course spent his entire career in the "ivory towers" of Congressional leadership and postsecondary education.
I remember a 2007 primary debate where one of the candidates tried to corner Huckabee on issuing clemency to another criminal who was on death row, and Huck responded with an emotional statement about how difficult and important a responsibility it is to decide whether a person lived or died, closing by noting that no one else in the field had ever signed a death warrant (Gilmore was out by then).
That may remain true in 2012. Astonishingly, of the four governors most discussed, only Huckabee comes from a death penalty state while the others governed three of those fifteen liberal bastions that bar capital punishment.
Huckabee may be the only candidate who has had to make individual life or death decisions (no one mentioned currently has served in combat or in the military at all). If other Republicans try to paint him as soft on crime, he can throw his record back at them once again.
And yes I know executions are more murders of political convenience than legitimate law enforcement techniques, but Republican voters almost universally love the death penalty. Only Huckabee could play that up.
@brian
Interesting list. Jindal seems to love being Governor of LA though. Do you think he would forgo reelection to make a longshot bid for President, especially given his as-yet unformed political persona.
And he would have to deal with Republican stigma against a non-white candidate. He only managed that in LA on his second try and after the Democrats had hit rock bottom. Confronting the issue nationally might not yet be feasible.
Seems like a stronger candidate for 2016, when he will still be only 45.
I agree with Jordan that it's way too early to be making prognostications about this stuff based on polls. Rudy Giuliani was supposed to be the 2008 Republican nominee, according to 2007 polls. So of course Palin's winning - more people have heard of her than anyone else. (Except McCain, but no one likes a loser.)
I'd bet that the 2012 Republican candidate is not on that list at all.
We are so far out that I don't see how polling can really inform us, but if he runs I'd say Huck has the best shot. Romney's religion (and, to a lesser extent, his record) is going to sink him. Republicans are royalists-- they will end up picking the candidate who is perceived as being the person whose turn it is next. That's not going to be Palin. McCain owes Huck, and will stump for him.
I like Gingrich. You may think his big ideas are kooky, and some are, but at least he has big ideas. He’s a thinker. He also knows something how the government in Washington actually runs (and not to foolishly shut it down)
Really? The only guy I know of in United States history to attempt to shut down the Federal government?
Either you're saying he's learned his lesson, or this is an attempted witticism (that falls flat).
I'm also not sure I agree with the notion that he is distinctive on the right for his big ideas. Kooky, even demented, big ideas seem a dime a dozen among the teabag set.
Possibly you are experiencing an optical illusion, where Newt's crackpot proposals appear sane when seen against the background of teabag craziness.
Jacob said...
While those tragic murders could give the Huckster some problems, I think it would be a hard issue for his opponents to raise...
And they would not have to do it.
After the advent of Swift Boating and Tea Bagging, it should be clear that "bloody shirt" politics is most effective when prosecuted by unaccountable third parties.
@Jacob
Huckabee had 3 times as many clemency/commutations as other govs around that era. Somebody's bound to play him as soft on crime.
I can't get out of a traffic ticket and he let this guy go for the rape of a child. That decision has left an indelible mark on our psyche and a string of widows and orphans in its wake. And we don't even really know why.
It'll come up.
Bobby Jindal is farm team material to be sure. Young, certainly (I've got 2 wives and a brother younger than him :p). He still might dip his toes in the race this time to set up for a real run in 2016 when, if he's reelected governor in 2012, he'd be uneligable for Governor till 2016 due to LA term limits. It could be awkward if he's still actually a contender when he's got to be really ramping up for his own race, and he risks his own Governor reelection by spreading himself too thin. Much safer to concentrate on getting the LA election in the bag. He's young with lots of time.
But time is on his side at this point.
Oops, that should read "...uneligable for Governor till 2020...".
*
I don't see the teabaggers voting for Jinadal, cuz he's a person of color.
Face it, what are the chances of a Hispanic or black ever winning the GOP south carolina primary.
I mean you couldn't get more right-wing than Alan Keyes and he never got anywhere.
@Mr Universe
Yeah it could become a negative and Carey makes a good point as well, but he could also turn the death penalty into a distinguishing issue. It's dangerous ground for attacks.
@Dwight
Problem is, Jindal's up for reelection in Nov 2011, not 2012. He'll have to start campaigning for reelection when others are jumping into the race for President, while if he waits until he is (presumably) reelected and waits for the post-campaign cleanup to end, he will only have a few weeks to announce, put a team together, and run in the Iowa Caucuses. By the time he gets his foot in the door, a nominee will likely have been crowned already.
Louisiana's gubernatorial elections, like Mississippi and Kentucky, make it virtually impossible to run for reelection and then run (even a very short) campaign for President.
If an Indian Catholic can get those bigots in LA to vote for him, my guess is he'll be OK nationally. BTW, Michael Steele is the highest elected Repub currently--and not white.
Two of the biggest enhancers for Repub nomination are "governor" and "Southern". Anybody that has those qualifications would be crazy not to consider running, since Huck looks damaged.
@Brian
Well first of all being a Catholic in LA is closer to a prerequisite than a liability, and Jindal certainly faced a lot of racist resistance in his first campaign which he only overcame with four years of heavy saturation.
But again why would he give up a job he seems to love for a slim chance at the nomination in a race he's likely to lose?
And seriously, Michael Steele? He was never elected by Republican voters, just be the appearance-conscious National Committee. Nor has he ever won any elected office in his own right. Is that really the best you can do?
Hey guys, I normally don't do this...
That is, of course, not me. This is exactly why I was reluctant to come out on here.
Looks like someone hijacked Persuter's 538 account.
The Freepers have just launched a RINO-Free America Project. And they are SERIOUS about it. If anybody thinks Romney has a chance at the nomination, just read some of this crap.
Nate has been saying the Republican nominee will be either Rpmney, Palin or X.
I'm saying it won't be Romney, never in a million years. The base simply won't stand for it.
It won't be Palin because she just doesn't have the staying power. There's no telling what Palin will be doing in 2 or 3 years... but she won't be running for the Republican nomination.
The nominee will be X. And X will be... Jeb Bush.
Looks like someone hijacked Persuter's 538 account.
No, it's a Blogger account rather than a Google account which is what I have, or something like that. If you look at the profile numbers they're different.
I'm assuming that it's Mule Rider, since he's had a personal vendetta against me for months, but who knows.
As I said, this is exactly the sort of shit I expected the minute I said anything about my orientation.
The nominee will be X. And X will be... Jeb Bush.
I actually think Jeb Bush wouldn't be a bad suggestion - except that he has a Mexican wife, and I fully agree with what jenny said on that subject. Otherwise yeah.
I think Jeb's Mexican wife is a strong plus if he wants the nomination. Republican strategists will see this as a way to repair their damaged image with Hispanics.
I just don't see anybody but Jeb who can navigate all the tricky rocks and shoals that any Republican nominee will encounter.
Besides after a year of Obama, the wingers are already missing Dubya. Over in Freeperville you just feel the nostalgia.
I wouldn't leave the "Man Called Patreus" out of the picture either Tom. Although since he's still on active duty this might be too soon for him logistically, but I see him running someday for the Republicans.
Alt candidate
Jebus Christ Fake Persuter, how fucking sick are you? I mean that would be low even for most of the trolls here.
@filistro
Wow, at the level that Freeperville is calling for further GOP self-destruction, I'm not sure that even Jeb Bush would be ultraconservative enough--after all he comes from an establishment GOP background and doesn't hate all immigrants. He may only agree with 99% of the Freeper agenda, which of course means RINO.
Whomever is the least electable will be the nominee. That is probably Palin or Gingrich.
Anyone that might appeal to intelligent conservatives, or independents or even dems will get shredded by the teabaggers.
************************
Jebus Christ Fake Persuter, how fucking sick are you? I mean that would be low even for most of the trolls here.
Nothing is too low for Mule Rider, from sock-puppetry to threats of violence against anyone and everyone to wet dreams about Obama getting killed.
There is no low bar for MR.
Hmmm...didn't know you could hijack an account. I feel all kinds of mischief with old friend's handle coming on. Heh, heh.
Why can't the Republicans nominate Obama? He's acting more and more like a republican everyday.
Jacob... I don't think Freeperville will actually choose the nominee. Especially when I study Tom's poll, it doesn't seem to me that they form even a substantial minority of the party. They're just sort of a majority of the fringe. So the teabaggers won't get their way in the nominee... but they will be noisy enough to kick out many who would actually be pretty good nominees, like Romney.
If teabaggers have to choose between Jeb and a bigger RINO (which for them translates pretty much to Anybody But Sarah) then I can see them throwing their weight behind Jeb, in which case their support would be crucial.
filistro said...
I think Jeb's Mexican wife is a strong plus if he wants the nomination. Republican strategists will see this as a way to repair their damaged image with Hispanics.
This I can agree on, 43rd himself did fine with Hispanics in general.
But the name? Really? Setting aside "Freepers" do you think he can run far enough away from his brother, certainly the last 4 months of his brother's Presidency, to win?
Petraeus will never be the nominee of the modern Republican Party. As much as many Republicans seem to want him, the bulk of the party would never vote for a man with his Rockefeller-esque New England views. They like him from a distance, and the same is probably true for Palin and the party establishment.
The GOP just doesn't have any serious or compelling candidates this cycle.
I do a fairly passable shiloh impression. I bet I could pull off a cyber Muley.
He claimed he was done with us a few weeks back, though. Maybe he got bored. Missed all of us (sniffle) :^(
This poll is a poll of GOP and GOP-leaning indies.
In fact, GOP-leaning indies comprise 40% of the 2012 sample.
What's really interesting is that GOP and GOP-leaning indies account for 62% of all adults sampled in this poll.
Jeb has tooooooo much baggage
homesteadbook.com/blog/wp-images/Jeb%20Bush.JPG.jpg
beavis said:
There is no low bar for MR.
No beavis. You set the bar at the low point when you make fun of the mentally disabled on this site on a regular basis.
I think the high number of GOP-leaning indies is the reason why there are so many undecideds in this poll.
In no caucus or primary during the GOP primary of 2008 did GOP-leaning indies account for 40% electorate.
I'm still liking the Raygun Zombie candidate (good name for a rock band maybe?)
Most politicians always want higher office. If there is a Southern vaccum--Jindal will get in.
Hard for a Repub to be elected anything in MD. That said, Steele was the first black to win state-wide office in MD. And, he got a bunch of uber-conservative insiders to vote him party chair.
I just told you an emerging star in the party is non-white, the elected leader of the party is non-white, plus the party's current rock star is a woman---now please continue with your "Repubs are rascist sexists" mantra.
@filistro
Perhaps, though I don't think the party would let them have another Bush just yet. But I don't think it will take Freeperville to kill Romney. He may just be a bad candidate all around: Hated by the base, part of the corrupt business establishment, vocally conservative enough to be distrusted by moderates, can't win his own state, the least experienced nominee since Wendell Willkie, and the list goes on.
Of course the Repubs may still nominate him. It's not like they have anyone better.
I'm pretty contrarian on the Bush-name-is-damaged theory. Remember we're talking about the nomination, and Dubya is still loved among Republicans. They can't help themselves, they just LOVE the guy.
(Freepers still devote a whole page every month to pictures of what W's been doing, and prayers for his well-being.)
As for Jeb's acceptance among the general public, if I were a Republican strategist I would argue thet Jeb benefits from Dubya's image. In contrast to Dubya he looks sober, serious, actually pretty reasonable.
As for Palin's support among Limbaugh and Beck, the article is overstating it.
The poll shows that only a third of her support among GOP and GOP-leaning indies comes from what the poll labels as regular followers of Beck or Limbaugh.
No beavis. You set the bar at the low point when you make fun of the mentally disabled on this site on a regular basis.
Holy shit Grog!
Retard in the context I use it does not mean mentally retarded. It means willfully stupid.
Which describes you.
Now, if you are truly mentally retarded(and it would not shock me) I will wholeheartedly apologize, until then get bent.
If you think that calling you a retard is lower than death threats then what else but retard could describe you?
*
THIS IS LOL FUNNY!
One of the all-time great negative ads - and it's on Mittens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elx3UWmyAY4
(The Real Persuter)
He claimed he was done with us a few weeks back
Because we all got to the point where we just ignored him. Lot easier to be a troll this way.
Jacob... I don't think Freeperville will actually choose the nominee. Especially when I study Tom's poll, it doesn't seem to me that they form even a substantial minority of the party. They're just sort of a majority of the fringe.
I dunno - ask Dede Scozzafava about that. :) I think you're right that they are a majority of the fringe - but it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Ultimately, they're willing to scream bloody murder about it all and no one else is.
Blogger brian said...
"...an emerging star in the party is non-white, the elected leader of the party is non-white, plus the party's current rock star is a woman---now please continue with your "Repubs are rascist sexists" mantra."
LOL, still harping about Steele. The only time he has ever been elected was as Bob Erlich's running mate--Republicans didn't vote for Erlich because Steele was on the ticket any more than Democrats voted for Obama because Biden was on the ballot too. And convincing the party committeemen that a black face would sell their snake oil better is not the same as turning out the base. Or are you saying that the RNC is a perfect reflection of the base's wishes?
And I agree that Jindal could be a fine candidate in 2016, but for 2012 the risks for him greatly outweigh the benefits. And racism is a problem that he'll have to confront just as he did running for Governor. It's not an impenetrable barrier, but for an uncharismatic unknown first term Gov who blew his first address to the nation, there may just be too much to overcome this cycle.
And you really want to insist that the GOP is recruiting women, non-white, non-Christian candidates? Really?
So of the 241 GOP members of Congress and Governors, a grand total of 29 are not white Christian men (as opposed to 162 out of 344 Democrats plus the President of the United States). Pardon me if I'm not bending over backward to praise Republicans as the party of diversity.
Too bad for Jeb, the most conservative Bush was the last in the pecking order. No more Bush's please.
I think John Kasich could also be an attractive candidate. But he's running for Gov of Ohio in 2010, isn't he?
Well everybody,
It's the big game tonight. Whoever wins between Oregon and Oregon State goes to the Rose Bowl. You'll see some intense bloodsport tonight.
GO DUCKS!
Siiiiigh... Wow this is a new level of dickishness. Switching to this name until he goes away. Any "Persuter" posts you see are not me anymore.
@Juris
Maybe we should start a Draft Dick campaign for Dick Cheney?
I've got the campaign slogan.
A proven Dick for your next big screw.
Vote for Cheney in twenty one two.
@Jacob
[on the little lizard otherwise known as a newt]: On the other side, his personal style may be too much attack dog
Sounds like he'd make a good Veep candidate. I'm thinking Palin/Gingrich, or Cheney/Gingrich.
:rolleyes: I do not believe it. How crappy is Blogger to allow this, exactly? Alright, back to Persuter it is.
@T.J.
Newt is smart, very politically connected, and actually has some ideas. He's also damaged goods due to his affair.
His Contract on America didn't work out so good either, consisting mostly of tax cuts for the very very very wealthy, He is a man of big ideas - all of them extremely bad and entirely discredited.
Blogger shrinkers said...
"Sounds like he'd make a good Veep candidate. I'm thinking Palin/Gingrich, or Cheney/Gingrich."
He'd be a great VP pick for the right candidate--especially for Palin. He would balance out the ticket with age, experience, eloquence, intelligence, and insider status; all without being too much voltage at the bottom of the ticket. He would be a great attack dog on Obama and shares the teabagger's foaming-at-the-mouth fire-eater conservatism (although he endorsed Dede, so now he's just another RINO to them).
Cheney shares all of those attributes (except eloquence) already, and being almost universally hated he would need someone less controversial than Newt anyway. Plus Cheney/Gingrich would be a combined 140-year old ticket.
Though Newt could also be good with the Huckster, but might overshadow someone like Pawlenty.
beavis said:
If you think that calling you a retard is lower than death threats then what else but retard could describe you?
As always, you're a class act Beavis.
Hard to see a Republican winning in 2012 and don't forget going thru a GOP primary that is never cordial or pretty. While Obama may lose some support, the GOP candidate will not gain any. Results in 2012 not significantly different than 2008.
Nate relies on numbers, I rely on pragmatic analysis.
The support for Obama has a good chance of increasing if the GOP runs some polarizing figure.
If Perry wins reelection as Texas Governor, I expect him to throw his hat in the ring for President. Texas has a lot of delegates and Perry is very good at raising money.
He can claim his fiscally responsible conservative policies prevented Texas from the worst parts of the recession unlike Democratically controlled states like California and Michigan (straw man argument I know but that's the case he'll try to make). I'd love to see Perry and Huckabee square off over the death penalty too.
The field shakes out like this: Romney and Palin are the co-frontrunners because they can both raise the most money, but both have weaknesses with other portions of the party; Romney with social conservatives and Palin with moderates. After these two there is a group of second tier candidates. These candidates will try to present themselves as a consensus/compromise candidate as an alternative to Romney/Palin. This tier includes John Thune, Tim Pawlenty, Newt Gingrich, Mitch Daniels, and Rick Perry. After this tier there will be the 'no chance' tier with Gary Johnson and Rick Santorum. The one wildcard in the field could be Jeb Bush, who would start as a second tier candidate but could match the frontrunners in funding easier then any other candidate in the field.
Front-runners: Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin
Second Tier: Tim Pawlenty, Newt Gingrich, John Thune, Mitch Daniels, Rick Perry, Haley Barbour, Rudy Giuliani, Jeb Bush, Mike Huckabee
No Chance Tier: Gary Johnson, Ron Paul, Rick Santorum
@Persuter
No one here who knows you would imagine the fake was you. It's clearly some cowardly bigoted jerk who is impressed with his own cleverness (yes, it is a "he") and probably is seriously afraid of his own sexuality. Probably a bed-wetter.
Anyone who doesn't know you, won't care.
Don't sweat it. Bedwetters have the attention span (and brains) of a gnat. (apologies to gnats.)
@Mr. Universe
I'm still liking the Raygun Zombie candidate (good name for a rock band maybe?)
Any Repub candidate in 2012 will try to cast himself (herself? itself?) as a Raygun Zombie. It should wouldn't want to be seen as being any Repub pres since Raygun, and St Ronnie is a Holy Icon.
The thing is, Palin's currently sucking all the oxygen from the room. Nobody can see past her or around her, especially in terms of the base.
But I maintain she won't even be on the radar anymore when the race for the nomination actually begins. (Boys and girls, can we spell "oppo research?" ;-)
There's a fair assortment of sort-of-reasonable candidates... but if it's not Sarah, will the base just disengage and go home in a sulk, or can they bring themselves to get behind somebody else? If so, who would person that be?
I'd love to see Perry and Huckabee square off over the death penalty too.
That would indeed be interesting given the human-sized skeleton, literally, in Perry's closet.
But although Perry is IMO a lot more culpable directly, I don't know how that will play out in the GOP primary. Neither look so good on the issue so I can't see them going at each other directly. As mentioned prior Swiftboat is the obvious call on that front.
After what happened in Lakewood, WA? Huck? Are you shittin' me?
That man is never going to seek elected office again. If he does, the attack ads have already been written. Everywhere he goes, the other primary challengers will tear him to pieces. If he did advance to the general election, he'd get swiftboated.
It's still too early to tell who they'll run. In 2007, I was absolutely certain the two general election candidates would be Giuliani and Clinton, so I guess I'm not very good at prediction.
I still can't see Huck even trying to run. Doubt Palin will either-she can make tons more money on the sidelines. Plus, if she loses an election, there goes the gravy train, right over a cliff. She's better positioned as a pundit.
Romney will never win a primary. People are just too freaked out by Mormonism. In small pockets, like Utah or Nevada, where there the LDS is strong, he'd win those states. But he stands zero chance of carrying the states where the LDS is weak. Unless there's a mass conversion event between now and 2012, Romney will never advance to the general election.
Who does that leave? Dunno, Petreus, Rudy might run again, maybe Pawlenty or Jindal. Probably Pawlenty.
Dwight, are you seriously cheering for someone to assassinate the President of the United States of America? Christ, whose side are you on?
@DerekSTheRed
If Perry wins reelection as Texas Governor, I expect him to throw his hat in the ring for President.
Oy. President Goodhair? Really?
@Dwight
Perry will probably use the wrongful execution allegations as proof that he's tough on crime unlike other candidates. That would be enough. I don't see Perry's execution scandal hurting him in the GOP primary. The general election is of course a different matter.
Hey guys, just ran across this video clip. Looks like the most promising candidate the GOP might have in 2012.
Ladies and Gentlemen: The New Ronald Reagan
I'm with Statler and shrinkers. Some of these suggestions just make me shake my head.
How can anybody seriously still talk about Huckabee having a chance after the horror of Maurice Clemmons?
And Rick Perry? The man suggested his state might secede from the Union. Not exactly what you'd call a presidential stance....
@filistro
I'm with Statler and shrinkers.
A threesome with you and Statler sounds good to me.
I'm betting that 2012 will see the Repubs going desperate, with the teabaggers preventing anyone electable from actually getting the nomination, and the Repub establishment recognizing that they're not going to win anyway against the Obama juggernaut. So, two unelectable pols, a figurehead for the teabaggers and am oldschool "thinker" for the hierarchy - Palin/Gingrich sounds ever more likely.
Fake Persuter said...
I've been really lonely lately.
~~~~~~~~~~
Indeed!
Mr. Universe said...
I do a fairly passable shiloh impression.
~~~~~~~~~~
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :)
After Shiloh, the South never smiled!
Bachmann/Dobbs ~ Constitution Party ~ 2012
palin/Beck ~ Libertarian Party ~ 2012
Huckabee/mittens ~ Party of No! ~ 2012
Love it when a plan comes together ...
Let me be clear (as President Obama would say), I don't think Perry has a shot in hell of being elected President. Getting the Republican nomination is another matter. All of his bombastic political moves this year have been leading up to this possibility.
One thing I've garnered from this discussion... the next few years are just going to be hugely entertaining, aren't they? :-)
Also, Tom has promised I will game this out a little more—contextualizing the race based on some assumptions about the state of the economy and politics by 2011-12; who decides to run and who doesn’t; and what the GOP primary electorate looks like—tomorrow ... and I am really, really looking forward to that post.
Admittedly, I've only skimmed through the rest of the comments, but I didn't see much talk of Ron Paul here. Does anybody give him a credible chance in 2012?
Ron Paul would make an interesting candidate. But his tolerance for religious and sexual rights, and his opposition to the "war on drugs" and "war on terror" wold make unacceptable to the Republican / teabagger / nutwing base. Plus, he actually has a brain, which the teabaggers can't stomach.
DGA said...
Dwight, are you seriously cheering for someone to assassinate the President of the United States of America?
Whosaidwhat?????
Admittedly, I've only skimmed through the rest of the comments, but I didn't see much talk of Ron Paul here. Does anybody give him a credible chance in 2012?
Ron Paul didn't win a single state during the Republican primaries, and only placed second in two states, I think. Given that Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee both got more than ten times the delegates Paul did, I don't see how he can be seen as a realistic candidate. He's popular on the Internet but in the end a House member can't gin up the kind of fundraising you need to mount a serious campaign for President. That's why serious candidates are nearly always governors, senators, or vice presidents.
Ron Paul does not want to be President. He didn't in 2008, either.
The media are, bluntly, whores. They will give airtime to whoever can pay or bring enough advertisers on board to make them rich. Ross Perot got airtime because he could write a check for it. Ron Paul raised incredible sums of money very early in the primary race, and yet refused to spend any of it on airtime.Thus, he got no airtime, and therefore stood zero chance.
The obvious question is: where did all that money go?
His advertising was limited to some graffitti artists scrawling little scribbles comparing him to John Gault, on subway tunnels and overpasses. I'm sure that had some visceral appeal to a certain segment of the youth population. But for a man who has the means to afford as much airtime as he can handle, to restrict his advertising to a few graffitios on an overpass urging people to google Ron Paul?
Another problem is his followers assume everybody reads Ayn Rand. Most people don't. They have no idea who John Gault is. So the cute little "Who is Ron Paul" graffittios were wasted on most people.
Lastly, he probably knows that if he got into the debates, he,d have to defend his desire to abolish the Department of Education. This would result in a howling mob of angry mothers descending upon him like a pack of rabid wolves. No more education system sounds great to a disaffected high school dropout. To a parent, that sounds like murder.The other primary challengers ignored Paul because they never percieved him as a threat. Had he spent his money and campaigned properly, rthey would see him as a real threat. And then I guarantee you, they would be all too happy to expose his tinfoil hat to the world.
By the way? Alan Greenspan's economic plan was largely based on his formal study of Objectivism. He wound up apologizing for that after the crash, and blamed the bubble bursting on his Randian model, which he also admitted was false.
Paul still clings to Objectivism. That didn't work out too well last time, did it?
Poll was taken 11/19-23, before Palin's big media blitz.
Take that poll again today and the results would be very different.
@JohnDoeAt30Below
Take that poll again today and the results would be very different.
Yeah. She's offended even more people by now.
Charging to get a picture taken with her? C'mon.
If Sarah Palin runs in 2012, she'll most likely lose, and with her loss, so will go her cash cow.
If Palin threatens to run in 2012, ala Sotromy Daniels, her popularity will surge and she can milk it for alot more cash before Iowa and NH. Then, she can back out and use her popularity to influence candidates en route to the general election, maybe right up to and even beyond the general election.
She's more powerful out of the race than in. Out of the race, she has her minions, who can scare the bejezzus out of GOP candidates running for office both up and down ticket. In the race, she's strong, until she loses, when she becomes the Ralph Nader of the Right.
She knows which side her bread is buttered on. That's why she got her book out as soon as she could, before she faded from the public memory to sell enough books/speaking engagements to get rich.
Sarah Palin timeline:
May 12, 2009... book deal is announced. Projected release date.. Spring 2010.
July 3, 2009... Palin abruptly announces plan to resign as governor.
July 26... resignation occurs, Palin retires to "write" book
November 17, 2009... completed book is released. Book has been written, revised, proofed, line-edited, scanned, promo'd jacketed and packaged in FOUR MONTHS.
Does this remind you of anything? What it makes me think of is those old Indiana Jones movies where Indy, in his quest for the treasure, is racing ahead of a giant boulder rolling down a tunnel and threatening to crush him.
We all know the treasure Sarah wants. The boulder, I submit, is an enormous scandal that will destroy all her future hopes of higher office. And without the constant tease that she MIGHT run, she is nothing.
She really needed to get that book finished and marketed before the boulder hit. That giant splat will happen pretty soon... or perhaps not, if the people who have their hands on the damning info can be persuaded to keep it in the vault as long as Sarah fades quietly away with her million dollar advance.
Either way, we've just about heard the last of her.
I'm showing my ignorance, but I never heard of the guy who people were talking up-thread. In my curiosity to find out how everyone knew this person I never heard of, I decided to google Frothy Mixture. Boy, was I the butt of the joke.
In my research I found most of the results included Rick Santorum? Why? I just didn't have the stomach to click on the links. This a family computer.
@filistro
She had to get the book out fast for the Christmas season. $$$
She couldn't wait till next year because:
1) the first one is critical for vapid deflection of questions...and parlaying to a sales pitch; "I fully addressed that in my book, available in the discount bin at Walmart"
2) needed time to get a second book to market
In my research I found most of the results included Rick Santorum? Why?
A few years back a blogger held a contest to define a new use for the word "santorum", which he then Google Bombed (an old technique for artifically raising search engine hit, although due to the noteriety "santorum" still gets high hits for "frothy mixture"). The winner of the contest was "frothy mixture of 'personal' lubricant and...". Since you are on a family computer I'll stop there.
When Giuliani was the frontrunner in 2007, I didn't think he would be the eventual nominee. I believed then, as I did in 1995 and in 1987 ('87 was a no-brainer), the Republicans would choose the next in-line. Much in the same way they did with Reagen in '79. McCain was the eventual nominee, as I thought he would be.
I don't consider Romney the elder statesman in the party. Huckabee is tarnished or he would be considered the elder statesman. Not that he commuted a criminal and then the criminal went on to execute four police officers, but the perception of improprieties by the Gov on behalf of the criminal, and even suggestions of abuse of power and unethical influence. Interesting to see what all is brought to light.
We already know the criminal was not eligible for parole because it had not been one year since he last went in front of them, and they rejected his request 4-1. In six months, the vote was 4-1 in favor. Definitely will come back to hunt him if he runs.
This was not a decision as to whether to execute or not, as some have suggested above. It was to whether free him or not. Willie Horton type of decision.
LoL, thank you Dwight. I could think of no better man whose name is associated with something so... disgusting is not the word I'm trying to say but the only thing that comes to my mind.
With Huckaberry out of the way, the field is wide open. Romney has TOO many negatives for the right fringe to support. Remember, a good majority of the early primaries are closed primaries. This leaves Romney coming in at least 2nd or 3rd, if not worse. Too much ground to make up in the end.
Palin is playing down her intentions of running. I sincerely believe she is positioning herself to be "drafted" into running. The early primaries gives her an advantage over any of the other candidates which will propel her to an early lead. She will run because she can't help it. She loves being the center of the universe, not too different from her views of Earth as the center of the universe.
The question will be, will she be able to hold on once the primaries become open?
No chance on Palin...she's the only candidate (including Obama) who gets more hate than love on Google Like Hillary, nothing overcomes fact that a lot of people just can't stand her. And "My Man Mitch" (that was his campaign slogan in Indiana last year) is a real candidate. He actually gets things done, and Wikipedia already explains how the Bush budget wasn't his fault and he's brought more accountability and balance to the state budget.
Plus, when it comes time to run for President in 2012, "Glenn Beck loves me" will not be a selling point. Because Daniels is low-profile now, he doesn't have to play public kissy-face with the teabaggers.
JEB BUSH ???
come-on folks, that is just plain loonie
first Jeb don't want it... he can do better in the private arena that public w/o the scrutiny
second, IF he did want it, he would have at least attempted to try to grab the open 2010 Senate seat to re-establish his bonafides - or follow CW & run for senate in 2006 against Nelson [he probably could have won then]
third, history is judging that Jeb screwed up royally in FL as governor & left the state in terrible shape [and Crist is payin' for Jeb's poor stewardship]
fourth, not only does Jeb have baggage - he has more than a few skeletons in his closet, so why go there ???
fifth, the national public [except for the deep south] would NOT allow a 3rd Bush to be POTUS or VP - there has already been 20 of the past 29 years with a BUSH in or in-waiting at the WH
sixth, even the Bush family confidants confirm that the dynasty is grooming one of Jeb's sons as the next generation of Bush pols - but he needs more time to pass for the stench of GW to fade...
[or maybe that is the Bush baked beans family & their talking dawg...]
also remember, Jeb & his family supported Rudy in 2007-8. he would not be a tea-party fav like DeMint & Palin
but any digging into Jeb's time as FL Governor & how he wreaked havoc on education, taxes, insurance, etc would take the bloom off his faded rose - not to mention the stigma of his involvement [along with his protege Harris] in helping mightily to steal the 2000 election for his big bro...
Crist may well crash & burn next year in FL - Jeb couldn't even count of carrying FL either
as his daddy would say, "ain't gonna happen."
forgot to include that JEB is a catholic convert - so how would THAT play to the GOP primary voters ???
I can't believe how everyone seems to have skipped past BDP's post without comment. Well, I guess I can, but still.
Basically, his main complaint was that the poll didn't define the core values of the Republican party as his specific beliefs. What a bubble you live in, Bart!
From the guy that brought you santorum, there is also....
Saddlebacking
Like, I'm totally a virgin! I saddleback, yeah, but that doesn't count as sex. Which is why I doN,t need a condom! It's not like you can get pregnant from it.
Pastor Allen,
Thank you for stating all the reasons why Mitch Daniels won't win. Republicans will not want to be reminded of the Bush budgets, saying Wikipedia already passes the blame on to Bush and away from Daniels is, well, not very persuasive, "My Man Mitch" is not a catchy slogan, and thinking by not kissing the teabaggers a$$ is going to get him anywhere you are mistaken.
I have no real interest as to who will eventually be the Rep. nominee at this time, but historically, the Republicans have gone with the politician who appears to have earned it. Nixon, Reagen, Bush, Dole, and Bush II. Daniels has not even registered in the national radar yet. If he were a Democrat, than yes, maybe he'll have a chance. Dems. are more bring-it-on and let the last (wo)man standing win.
Palin is the only one that currently meets that criteria by virtue of being the VP candidate in '08 (you have McCain to blame on that one). The rest are pretenders or have too much baggage a la Rudy, Mitch and Huck.
I would include Palin in that bunch except for the right fringe goes nuts over her. I expect her to take a page out of Obama's campaign play book and unleash her fervent followers to the early primary and caucus states. Obama was able to hold off Hillary because his more fervent followers gave him the badly needed wins in caucuses he counted on in the early going.
Another disadvantage any potential opponent may have against Palin is the winner take all format of the Republican primaries. She will take an early lead leaving most of them behind and dropping out. The fact that most primaries in the beginning are closed primaries can't do nothing but help her either. Daniels in this cycle is out, just like Jindal and McConnell.
Re Republicans and Catholics -- in case nobody's noticed, there are five Catholics on the Supreme Court and four of them are hard rightists nominated by Repub Presidents. Does anybody recall "the base" having a problem with any of them? Me neither. Hell, the "good ol' boys" even suspended their usual hatred of affrimative action and stood still for Clarence Thomas.
As for the rest, if Palin runs, she wins. The one big problem she had was that she had only one geographic base -- the South -- and Huckabee could have wounded her badly there. The Washington cop killings, however, probably took him out of the race for good. This means that somebody would have to beat her in ALL of the early non-Southern primaries or she'd take enough momentum into Super Tuesday to lock it down.
If she doesn't run, it's Romney's to lose. But if he can't win over Palin's base, somebody else -- Barbour seems well-positioned -- might well be able to bloody him in the early Southern primaries and pull off an upset.
The problem with Gingrich is that I get the impression that a lot of people, especially women, simply don't like him. They may respect him; they may even agree with much of what he says. But he's just not very likable.
Pan said...
I can't believe how everyone seems to have skipped past BDP's post without comment.
~~~~~~~~~~
As a rule, skimming and ignoring works best for me. Except when he confuses me w/another poster. ;)
Actually it's very easy to believe a BDP post would skip by w/out comment as ignoring spin, spam and misinformation is a real time saver ...
Ducks win. We're goin' to the Rose Bowl.
Mr. Universe said...
Ducks win. We're goin' to the Rose Bowl.
~~~~~~~~~~
Congrats! should be a good game vs the Buckeyes.
MR U
good for the ducks - they deserve it after running the Pac-10 gauntlet
they were fortunate that it was a home game imho
good clock management to keep the ball those last 6 minutes including two 4th down conversions
but the Beavers coulda/woulda/shoulda won. they led for much of the game, but settled for 4 FGs & lost scoring opportunity late on a failed 4th down conversion after having it 1st down at the OR 22...
last team with possession was gonna win that game tonight
a virtual logjam for 2nd place in the Pac-10 - will probably end up in a 4-way tie @ 6-3
What, I go to the game and Statler and shrinkers recycle all my earlier material? ;-)
Now for my next big game. I was born in Bama.
ROLL TIDE!! Comin' for you Gatordad.
@DCM
You are correct. The Beavs played their asses off. I couldn't believe some of those caught passes. But that's the 'Civil War' for you. Rankings go out the window. This one gets personal. Players bring 110%. I love college football. Now if only they'd fix the BCS so we know who really is #1.
SLASHER
one can't compare the composition of SCOTUS with POTUS
SCOTUS are nominated by one person & confirmed by 100 in a relatively short period of time, not elected by a grueling partisan primary season that is endless & sniping
both Jews & Catholics have done fine as SCOTUS nominees
POTUS = every little thing matters - being LDS or Catholic or Jewish is not a helpful attribute nationally in an actual election cycle as history has shown repeatedly [except as appointed VP]
recently, it hindered/failed to help Kerry [and Biden & Lieberman & Romney among others]
sad, but it is a truism [and imho it would hurt Jeb Bush in the GOP primaries where it would count the most]
speaking of religion, what happened to all the chatter about Cantor as the new GOP darling for 2012 ??? has his rancid bloom already faded ?
I never bought into it, but it seemed like Eric was really workin' it since BHO took office
wv - backsize [saddlebacking term - not baptize]
I don't think Jeb Bush will join the fray early, but I do believe he might offer himself for consideration if Mitt Romney (the candidate the Bush family hoped would be the 2008 nominee) isn't doing well as 2011 comes to a close.
Had it not been for Larry Mann (still alive after 28+ years on death row), Jeb would almost undoubtedly have been the "Bush" in 2000. An overreach having to do with crime "toughness" put him four years behind his older, black-sheep brother.
I've not commented much on these 2012 hypotheticals because I really don't see much point. I don't think Palin will be the nominee for precisely the reason Mark Grebner gave a couple of times a couple of weeks ago.
A successful candidate can be incompetent or a control-freak, but they can't be BOTH.
Amen.
I'd argue that the "next-in-line" theory on Republican nominees ended in 2000 when Dan Quayle went nowhere. A winner was required and the Bush in Texas looked most like a winner. And that McCain ended up the nominee in 2008 had much more to do with Romney and campaign choices by his opponents not named McCain than it had to do with McCain.
(Back to Persuter. It's actually all been on the same profile, as it turns out. If there's any question, my profile number ends in 12744.)
OK, I'm going to throw another one out there, as long as we're spitballing. It might sound crazy, but bear me out. He's a senator and previous Vice-Presidential candidate. He's a maverick. He's very pro-war and pro-Israel. He spoke at the Republican National Convention and has very high favorability ratings among Republicans in his state.
I'm talking, of course, about Joe Lieberman. :P It could happen!
Darned! I wa hoping for OSU vs. OSU.
Go Beavs!!!
Oh great. Keith just nominated Ari Fliescher to the world's worst. Why? He is now in charge of the BCS.
We will never get this fixed.
O.K., My 2 cents:
Palin - No
Not because she's a shiffer (Who was the GOPs candidate in 2000? And Reagan wasn't exactly in the front of the line when they handed out brains). The GOP has never required thier POTUS candidates to be smart. However, her negatives are too high. AND, the GOP is a party of men, so I don't believe she'll win it.
Romney - No
He's got plenty of minuses, but the plain and simple truth is that the GOP (or the country for that matter) is not yet ready for an LDS at the top of the ticket.
Huckabee - No
And not because of Washington, because he was the only one who actually did anything right in that mess. He's just one of those always runner ups because he doesn't have enough support from any major part of the GOP.
Paul - No
O.K., is this guy really a republican? 10-15% is about tops for him. IF he runs again, it will be so that some of his ideas are actually discussed by the party (Kinda like the DEMs Jackson).
Jindal - No
Too early for him, ask me again in 12 years. AND he's not white.
Giuliani - No
I'm laughing that his name even comes up.
Gingrich - ?
O.K., so he's hated by women. But, the GOP is a party for men, so that will hurt him some, but not be a death blow. He should have enough connections to raise the money, and we saw in '94 how good a persuader he is. At this point, I wouldn't count him out.
If not Gingrich, then the smart money would be on the field. If enough teabagger candidates lose, then the GOP might go back to the left a little and give someone like Huntsman a chance. On the other hand, if the teabagger candidates actually win (the opp. party usually picks up seats, and I don't think 2012 will be an exception, unless something MAJOR happens) then a far right candidate will look pretty good. Probably in a field of around 7-9 candidates, there will be someone from the right (not counting Palin) to step up under the right conditions. If Palin no shows, or fizzles, there are at least 6 candidates to fill that roll (not counting Gingrich).
*
i cant believe anyone is considering Ron Paul.
Paul is 74 years old. He'll be 77 in 2012.
America will never elect someone who will be in his 80s during his term.
According to Tom Ricks, Petraeus was once registered as a NH Republican. My guess is that his politics are very moderate, much in the tradition of Powell and Eisenhower. So I doubt he has all that great an affinity for the present-day GOP. But that's speculation...
More tellingly, he's on record about not having any interest in writing a memoir. Such a stance shows he's not at all interested in entering politics. Unlike Tommy Franks, whose memoir is a Bush-eulogy.
I think Petraeus will retire to become the doyen of counterinsurgency doctrine. Scholarship rather than politics.
A boring Mid-Western candidate with a presently low profile would strike me as the smartest choice for the GOP. Someone like Thune, Daniels or perhaps Pawlenty.
But then, the fundamental problem for the GOP is that running in the GOP primaries is bound to force a candidate to adopt positions that damage one's general-election persona.
Take Romney. He might have really cultivated a moderate get-things-done image had he not have been forced to pander to the GOP base during the primaries. It just made him look phoney. Quite frankly, I don't think he'll ever be able to overcome the phoneyness narrative. It's just too perfect a fit.
That being said, the GOP sorely lacks a strong 2012 candidate, at least among the names commonly brought up.
Huckabee... I guess he's now toast.
Gingrich... Way too much baggage. He just always teases us with a primary run to remain relevant.
Palin... I trust a majority in the party knows she's fatally flawed. That being said, one only needs a plurality in the primaries. My read on her is that she'll just tease a primary run rather than put her celebrity status at risk.
Jindal... Can't believe this name even gets mentioned in a 2012 context. No way he's going to run that early after having bombed earlier this year. 2016 or 2020.
Pawlenty... Now, a boring Midwestern governor seems like a good idea. The trouble with him is that he's TOO boring. Can he overcome that? Perhaps, given the sheer weakness of the present field. But quite frankly I doubt the hard-right base will flock to any blue-state governor.
Barbour... The Lobbyist-in-chief? How much baggage does that present? In the GOP primary probably not all that much. After all, that didn't really hurt Fred Thompson.
Romney... Despite his clear flaws, I frankly think he's the likeliest to win in this weak field.
Yet precisely because it's so weak, I think there's a good chance some governor or senator who's yet fairly unknown might run. This should be as volatile a primary campaign as GOP's 2008 primary was.
Anyway, I'm not worried about Obama in 2012. At least as long as he doesn't lose many voters to a progressive spoiler candidate.
I'm now more convince than ever that Perry will have the best chance (remember South Carolina is an early primary that doesn't look badly at the idea of secession). Here's a partial list of reasons from the Texas Monthly article I posted above.
1. Unlike Huckabee, Romney, and Palin, he is still in office.
2. He is the longest-serving governor in Texas history.
3. He is governor of the biggest red state that sends the most delegates to the Republican convention.
4. He has the best conservative record of any contender: significant tort reform, a large property tax cut, refusal to raise taxes in the face of a $10 billion budget deficit (2003), declining to expand government by accepting strings-attached unemployment insurance stimulus funds, implementing efforts to enhance border security
snip
5. He has assiduously courted key figures in the Republican establishment, such as Grover Norquist and Rush Limbaugh (whom he made an honorary Texan), as well as other talk radio hosts.
6. The Murdoch news empire loves him. He is the beneficiary of puff pieces in the Wall Street Journal and softball questions on Fox News.
7. He has an extensive fundraising apparatus in Texas that is capable of raising enough money to make the race, and he is now in charge of finance for the Republican Governor’s Association, giving him access to the GOP’s big national donors.
Derek, the guy who brings up the spectre of Texan secession? He sure is Mr. Tea Party.
Don't you think the GOP will look for a more electable candidate?
My sense is that the GOP first and foremost wants to win. That's why they stomached McCain, who's conservative, yet has broken with party orthodoxy on a few hot button issues.
Oh brother.
Rick Perry is gay. As is Thune.
just type rick perry is gay in google.
Now, of course, I don't care that he's gay. But once the slime starts he's finished. Remember this is the party that rejected McCain in 2000 when Bush said McCain had a black daughter.
I really wish someone would do a poll that asks who people's SECOND choice is. My sense is that the support for Gingrich and Palin is deep but not wide ... ie, its first or nothing. Huckaby and Romney are likely to have wide support as a #2 choice. TPaw is just dead in the water, ande Jindal will never live down the response to the president's speech.
All that being said, I think the 2012 Republican candidate has not yet been mentioned, except possibly as a Vice candidate.
I would prefer that the Republican's nominate Newt Gingrich, because he is a respectable candidate and the thought of him actually winning doesn't mean the apocalypse.. but I feel like the way the GOP has been headed, Palin will end up getting the nomination. With her, the thought of her actually being president is scary. She would drive the country into the ground worse than Bush ever could imagine.
>> My sense is that the support for Gingrich and Palin is deep but not wide ... ie, its first or nothing.
Yeah, it's not critical in the early primaries but that does become very important once the race narrows down to 2 prime candidates. Although is there any real possibility this is still undecided at the time the RNCC opens in Aug 2012? I know that hasn't happened in a while, that that isn't how the system works now. But if Mitt stumbles but not fatally, could this come down to a real 3 contestant race with none of them willing to give up a deal, forcing a convention showdown? A real one rather than the one that media outlets kept having wet dreams of happening at the DNCC last year?
>> Jindal will never live down the response to the president's speech.
Of course he can live that down. Not to everyone but if he can hone his skills enough, maybe hire a speach writer that doesn't have a completely tin ear, so as to not come off as a clueless pratt one bad speech isn't fatal.
Pan said...
Basically, his main complaint was that the poll didn't define the core values of the Republican party as [Bart's] specific beliefs. What a bubble you live in, Bart!
Lower taxes, smaller government and a strong military is classic Reagan conservatism to which the GOP pays homage in its platform, if not always in its governance.
@Charles
Don't you think the GOP will look for a more electable candidate?
I don't think the right wing nutcases are going to be all that rational in their thinking. As Nate has pointed out before, parties nominate more extreme candidates against incumbents. Again, it takes a lot of money to run for President and Perry has access to that kind of money thanks to a large donor base.
Yes the secession talk will hurt him in the north, but not necessarily in the south or midwest. If he runs, he will likely win South Carolina early, then later the confederate south plus Kentucky and Missouri, and finally split the mountain west states. In an open field, that might be enough delegates to win the nomination. At the very least, I think he'll be on the ticket as VP nomination.
The Republican Party is in pretty bad shape if it is seriously digging deep enough to look at someone as out of touch and so last-century as Gingrich. We could say the whole party has been Newtered.
Just curious... what purpose does the "word verification" serve?
I thought it was supposed to somehow verify a poster's ID and prevent the sock puppetry and hijacking of usernames that was so rampant here last fall during the election.
But after watching Persuter get victimized yesterday, I gather nothing's really changed and the whole WV thing is futile.
Persuter... if you're reading this, I never confused the fake poster with you. Even without checking I knew which were your posts. Your writing style is spare and elegant, and YOU never use sentence fragments, begin sentences with dangling partciples, or confuse "who" and "whom." :-)
@Jenny
What are you, like, 15 or something?! OMG!
And Rick Perry is so gay. Of course some of my best friends are gay.
BRING BACK BUSH!
BRING BACK...
you get the idea.
C'mon, Mr U... be nice.
It's Friday, unemployment is down, the Ducks won... it's all good.
Smiley face. :-)
@filistro
Word verification is designed to ferret out non-human posts such as spybots, adbots, and other forms of internet spam that are placed by robo mailers since they don't currently have the capability of visually recognizing charachters that don't conform to standard visual references of letters and numbers.
Some forms of 'captcha' actually use us humans as translators by using old printed text that computer OCR (optical character recognition) software can't translate. Which means we're all working for free to translate old books into language the internet can recognize in addition to proving that we're human.
Word verification doesn't, as yet, function as an asshole filter. Sorry Persuter. Your actual internet friends know who you are. I knew the instant I read that first line of the fraudulent post that something was amiss.
I agree that there should be more safeguards so that random people can't maliciously masquerade as others to sully their reputations
@filistro
C'mon, Mr U... be nice.
I'm having my first cup of asshole filter now with creme and sugar.
"One of these Charles is not like the other, one of these Charles is different."
Man, you guys are so confusing...
Sorry, Mr. U! I totally forgot you are in the pre-coffee time zone.
All is forgiven.
Pan... yes, it appears there are two Charleses.
Because, of course, you just can never have enough Charleses.
I really wish there were some way to prevent malicious sock puppetry. That's why I left last year, I just couldn't stand it. It would be different if the sock puppets had some wit and talent. It's just awful to see one's name attached to such bad writing. ;-)
I'll bet it made Persuter cringe to see his name above that mawkish, colorless drivel. Persuter is often caustic and acerbic, but he's never mawkish.
@Pan
There's a poster in Europe that is named Charles. Not same dude as our troll. Yet another reason to improve internet identity software.
@DerekSTheRed
Yes the secession talk will hurt him in the north, but not necessarily in the south or midwest.
This I can agree on, for the GOP primaries. He does the "I was just giving voice to those that are fustrated with the DC elites, I love this country and damn it I'm fighting to keep it!" He can even point at someone like Gringrich as he says it. It's a great flag wrapping moment that'll play well to the base, no problem whatsoever.
See this sort of thing up in Canada all the time when a politician is protecting his strong-side flank with a little "dog whistle" succession rhetoric. *shrug* It can hurt some nationally with the general electorate but it is near minimal damage within the party. That's the very reason why he used it in the Texas GOP primary.
Has the disastrous Dubya presidency also affected the national prospects of Southern politicians? It seems to me there is a little more wary attitude to the South in general these days.
Bad things happen down there (Katrina, etc)... Bad Things arise from there... (W, teabaggers, Tom Delay dancing in sequins)... let's not get too close to them, etc.
Mr. U:
Yup, am aware of that. Note my linking to the backtype history. Just thought I'd point it out for those who had grown used to the other Charles and were momentarily confused.
Speaking of which, now is as good a time as any to plug a greasemonkey script I wrote. It puts a link next to the username for backtype history for that user.
A geat wk for Mitt and Palin. Huckabee is toast...and his demise will benefit Palin which isn't bad for Mitt as long as he keeps Palin to his right he should be fine. I don't see Palin getting many votes from folks that voted in 2008 for (McCain/Rudy/Romney). So the more air time Palin gets the harder it will be for someone to challenge Mitt from the right.
So, it's now more likely that Palin will run and only slighlty more likely that she can win the nomination.
@Pan
RE: Greasemonkey
Glad you brought that up. I can't get that to work on Firefox. What am I doing wrong?
Mr. U:
Probably best not to clutter up the forum with the issue. Go to that userscripts page for the script and under About click on "start the discussion." I'll check it out and see what I can do to help.
Ah, seems to work on the page itself but not if you open a separate page to view comments.
Don't worry, this thread is pretty much spent.
Handy little script. Particularly when you're trying to find your own comments.
Mr. U:
Ah, yeah. Well, if you want it to show up on blogger.com when you're looking at comments, just right-click on the monkey icon in the status bar, click Manage User Scripts, click on 538 Backtyper on the left, then click Add on the top-right (should be the Included Pages section). Enter the following URL and click OK:
https://www.blogger.com/comment*
Click Close. Now the script will run on ALL blogger.com comment pages, not just 538. I suppose you could limit it to just 538 by instead entering:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4257917002416684161*
@Pan
This is kinda fun. Went back and dug up some of my original posts when 538 was new. Kinda funny to see how I've evolved as a blogger. Also funny to see some of the early trolls predictions like 'Real Joe' and also some of the other early posters like 'Rich Merritt' who I think was a gay marine. Hope your program isn't what is currently jamming up my computer though.
filistro said...
C'mon, Mr U... be nice.
It's Friday, unemployment is down, the Ducks won... it's all good.
Smiley face. :-)
===============================
Ducks ▲ Unemployment ▼
THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR McCAIN!
ps Rick Perry is soooooo Gay! OMFG!
@Jenny
OKay, you have a sense of humour. so I like you.
Go Ducks! Roll Tide!
Nostalgia check.
PeteKent said...
McCain’s Orwellian Vision
McCain’s ads are meant to conjure up a left wing, socialist order under Obama that is greatly different than the lives we have been leading. They are meant to warn of us of a dark, Orwellian future that Obama will bring.
Obama has brought this upon himself. He has obvious sympathy for socialist thinking and his approach to tax and spending policy is as extreme ideologically as we have seen since George McGovern. You couple this with a campaign that embraces Marxist trade dress in order to subliminally appeal to the left wing base and you have the beginnings of an audience conditioned to think of Obama as “other” and “unknown”.
I think the ads are visceral and for the twenty percent of the electorate that is either undecided or only lightly moored to either candidate, they can have great impact.
Obama has reacted strongly to the character attacks that have been visited upon him. But they might have been better served to have remained silent instead of hastily dropping the race card and risking offending the plurality of voters who are white.
I wonder if the McCain character attacks were not a feint to draw Obama out of his crouch, forcing him to react and perhaps make a mistake. Obama risks appearing like a shakedown artist in the vein of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who browbeat and extorted their opposition to buy their silence, shouting them down and relying on the media to serve as their “Amen” chorus.
Obama has now hit the ball into McCain’s court and it is his point to control. McCain has been benefited from Obama’s apparent gratuitous racial attack on him just at the moment while McCain was being widely hailed for having taken the initiative to silence his crowds and lecture them on the need to be respectful. His indignation on behalf of his campaign and mildly disaffected electorate could benefit him in the polls if he handles it correctly.
McCain must resist the temptation to play to the anti-Obama base in the party. He already has them. Instead, while continuing to hit Obama hard on the character and biography issues (which he can do most effectively through Palin, surrogates and paid media), he must be the ostensible racial healer, portrayed as the candidate seeking to heal the racial divide and not exploit it. Along the way he can explain why honest thought debate and criticism with and of Obama is not racism and those who would suggest it is are trying to cower us into silence and Americans never let their voices be stilled by those who would oppose them.
October 12, 2008 4:19 PM
Brad said...
Pete-
Quit posting pasted talking points and talk to people. Noone reads your reads BS, it has no connection to reality.
October 12, 2008 4:25 PM
PeteKent used to not have a space between his name if you're looking at his past stupidity for any kind of reason.
3.03.2008
Pollster Ratings v1.0
by Nate Silver @ 1:15 PM
Bookmark and Share Share This Content
For the original version of my pollster ratings and a discussion of some of the underlying concepts, see my Daily Kos post here.
...see also pollster ratings
> Because, of course, you just can never have enough Charleses.
I got hooked on this site in early 2008. I was the only Charles back then. I'm the real deal! :)
If a post is non-trollish, it's Charles (pronounced "sharrl") from Europe. :)
Anyway, this persuter impersonation episode was so infantile. Whoever posts such drivel most definitely needs a life.
I wish Nate would appoint a couple of reliable moderators.
538 history
Mr. Universe said...
Nostalgia check.
PeteKent said...
McCain’s Orwellian Vision
blah, blah, blah
~~~~~~~~~~
Don't know who PK was copy and pasting, but as always the winger writer was bogged down in ad nauseam daily cable news media minutia gobbledygook and doing more hoping/praying than analytical thinking and not looking at the Big Picture! ...
like Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune
08 reasons Barack Obama will win next Tuesday
1. Obama’s supporters are more energized.
2. Obama has a superior ground game.
3. Obama has a superior air game.
4. McCain has lost his brand
5. Sarah Palin is turning out to be the disasta’ from Alaska.
6. Obama hasn’t lost his cool.
7. McCain hasn’t been able to fight the Bush headwinds.
8. Obama’s been lucky
08 reasons why Barack Obama might lose next Tuesday
1."Bittergate."
2.He's played too much defense.
3.He was more dismissive than responsive to festering issues.
4.He left points on the table.
5.Biden's blunder.
6.The economy now looks more like a chronic woe than an urgent crisis.
7. Smoke.
8. He's African-American.
08 reasons why Barack Obama will win the Democratic nomination(Jan. 2007)
Five reasons why the cocaine story is good for Obama(Jan. 2007)
08 reasons why Obama should not choose Hlllary Clinton as his running mate in `08 (May, 2008)
ie presidential politics is not all that complicated, except the Obama African/American effect was an unknown factor before the election.
shiloh:
The best part of that '07 post are the comments by the Republican telling Zorn what a fool he is. They're more or less identical to the posts here by certain regulars.
Pan said...
~~~~~~~~~~
There were many winger fools at RCP last year who were 110% sure McCain would beat Obama. It was not even in the realm of possibility a Barack Hussein Obama had the slightest chance to be elected president.
They obviously did not understand presidential politics and were not watching Obama's primary campaign where he defeated the unbeatable Clinton machine and were not paying attention to the fund raising records Obama was breaking.
And then there was the cheney/bush 2001-2008 catastrophe.
But must admit having grown up in the '60s never thought an African/American president would be elected in my lifetime.
Who knew? as the stars were aligned for Obama. :)
But must admit having grown up in the '60s never thought an African/American president would be elected in my lifetime.
I can't, from my vantage point across the border I had expected it quite this soon, either. But for over two decades now I've been saying "a black man before a woman". Hillary damn near made a fool of me but in the end the US's male chauvinism came through.
P.S. I sometimes wonder if Hillary had managed to claw out a win, by hook or crook, if she'd have actually managed to close the deal on the general election.
2008 was a very strange year. A lot of people knew early on - as early as 2004 - that Obama and Hillary were going to be players on the Dem end, and McCain, Huckabee, Guiliani, and a couple of others for the Repubs. But not every election cycle has the main protagonists telegraphed so early.
As I recall, three years before the 1976 election, no one would have predicted Jimmy Carter would be in the running. In 1989, no one would have anticipated Bill Clinton. (In fact, in both years, a lot of the smart money was on Ted Kennedy, despite his issues.) In '65, Nixon was no more than a joke, same with Reagan in '77. Of course. W. was always a joke, and still is (albeit a very grisly one).
My point is, it may well be that someone from the third or forth tier down may suddenly look attractive to the Repubs a couple if years from now - particularly since A) they're desperate and B) the top couple of rows has such serious negatives.
Whoever they get, it won't be for rational reasons. And it will be fascinating to see how the tension between the party establishment and the teabaggers plays out, particularly with the pundidiots like Rush and Hannity and Beck bleating in the background.
I suspect wither we'll end up with a far-right nutball (under the theory that the Repubs don't have a chance anyway, so let's throw the rabid mongrels a bone) -- or the establishment will win out with someone that has at least seems respectable but wouldn't have a chance even in a good year (like Pawlenty), and this engenders a rogue far-right third-party candidate who might actually wind up with more electoral votes in the General than the official Republican gets.
In any case, for true wonks, 2012 could wind up being as fascinating and ground-shifting as 2008 was. We live in interesting times.
A new indicator called “years 1820-2010″Buy Rohan Crone has been added (you find it under “other”).
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Here you see an example Rohan gold of this (opens in a new window). In the graph you Rohan money see a comparison of the development of both incomes and sulfur emissions of India, Malaysia and United Kingdom between 1860 and 2000. The blue and green Buy Rohan Gold bubbles show the situation in the second half of the 19th century and the red bubbles show the situation in late 20th century.
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