12.14.2009

The Public Option Fight May Not Have Been Winnable

There's been a little bit of revisionist history in the post-mortem over the public option. The fact is that progressives did very, very well to get to within a handful of votes in the Senate on a weak-ish public option -- perhaps as close as one or two votes on the latest compromise, the Medicare buy-in.

Exhibit A: At least four Democratic Senators had declared relatively unambiguous opposition to the public option as early as mid-June, when the health care debate began in earnest:

Blanche Lincoln -- June 18th:

LITTLE ROCK — U.S. Sen. Blanche Lincoln, D-Ark., says she prefers private insurance cooperatives to a government-run provider that would compete with the private sector in reforming the nation’s health care system.
Mary Landrieu -- June 9th:
Count Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) as a "no" vote on the public insurance option.

"I am not open to a public option, however I will remain open to a compromise - a full compromise," Landrieu told reporters Tuesday. "A public option is not something I support I don't think its the right way to go."
Joe Lieberman -- June 14th:
Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) said this weekend that he opposes a public option plan for consumers in a healthcare reform plan to emerge from the Senate.

"I don't favor a public option," Lieberman told Bloomberg News in an interview broadcast this weekend. And I don't favor a public option because I think there's plenty of competition in the private insurance market."
Ben Nelson -- April 30th:
Sen. Ben Nelson said Thursday that he will oppose the creation of a government-run health insurance plan as part of a health care overhaul, contrary to the position held by many of his fellow Democrats.

Nelson, D-Neb., said he may try to assemble a coalition of like-minded centrists opposed to the creation of a public plan, as a counterweight to Democrats pushing for it. He said he does not believe a majority of the Senate supports the idea.
Exhibit B: As of August 12th, the number of clear yesses in favor of the public option stood only at about 43.

Exhibit C: On September 29th, the very robust Rockefeller public option was defeated 8-15 out of the Senate Finance Committee, with 5 of the 13 Democrats voting against, and the marginally robust Schumer public option was defeated by a vote of 10 to 13 moments later.

In other words, I don't see the ConservaDems -- with the possible and important exception of Joe Lieberman -- constantly moving the goalposts on the public option or otherwise negotiating in bad faith. Rather, I see them as having staked out a firm stance and sticking to it, and the public option advocates always facing a consequently uphill battle.

Suppose the following scenario plays out when you're trying to buy a used car:

Dealer: The price of the car is $2,000.
You: For that beat-up Honda Accord? I'll give you $1,200.
Dealer: Nope, it's $2,000.
You: How about $1,500?
Dealer: I'm going to stick with $2,000.
You: Will $1,700 get it done?
Dealer: My best and final offer is $2,000.
You: Give a guy a break! $1,875?
Dealer: $2,000.
You: $1,995 and a Slurpee coupon?
Dealer: Now we're talking -- step into my office.

Is that a negotiation in bad faith? Is the dealer moving the goalposts? No. He's being very stubborn and very firm -- but he's also being very explicit about what he wants. It's possible that you were an incompetent negotiator and that maybe if your first offer had come in a little lower, or a little higher, you could have gotten a better price. But more likely the dealer simply had more of the leverage and ultimately $2,000 is an acceptable price to you, even if it's more than you were hoping to pay.

Progressives did just about everything in their power to try to get a decent public option into the bill. They threatened. They bargained. They complained. They organized. They persuaded. They begged. There was the opt-in, the opt-out, the trigger, the Medicare buy-in. There was no lack of initiative or creativity. And they actually had quite a bit of success: from 43 votes in August, they got up to perhaps as many as 48-52 for a strong-ish public option, and 57-59 for a weak-ish one. People like Kay Hagan, Tom Carper and Kent Conrad, to varying degrees, came on board.

But just because you perceive yourself as being in a negotiation with another party doesn't entitle you to win that negotiation, or even to split things halfway. Sometimes your adversary doesn't think there's anything to negotiate at all. Sometimes they would in theory be willing to negotiate if you could find the right leverage point, but there's nothing that fits the bill, for all your best efforts. Sometimes their first offer is pretty much as good as it's going to get, and not merely a negotiating ploy.

At the end of the day, negotiations are about leverage, and in this case, the ConservaDems had almost all of it. Why?

Firstly, because a bill without a public option still does a world's worth of good from a progressive standpoint, providing in excess of $100 billion per year in subsidies to the disadvantaged to help them procure health care.

Secondly, because the public option is considerably more popular in progressive districts than in ConservaDem ones.

Thirdly, because the health care bill has become fairly unpopular overall. Whereas for a moderate or liberal Democrat, a vote for health care is nevertheless a slam dunk, the more conservative Democrats have to weigh a nay vote that would really hurt their party nationally versus an aye vote that could potentially harm them personally.

Fourthly, because money talks in politics, and corporate campaign donations tend to push policy toward the center-right, and the ConservaDems tend to be especially reliant on corporate contributions.

Fifthly, because progressives do not have a history of behaving "irrationally", and so attempts to refute the above logic are not credible.

Sixthly, because the threat to use reconciliation is only minimally credible -- it could be done, but the bill that emerged could easily be worse from a progressive standpoint than a bill passed under regular order without a public option, and the attendant political fallout would be damaging to all Democrats.

This is a very difficult set of circumstances to overcome. Perhaps not impossible -- if Joe Lieberman weren't such a prick, for instance, maybe it could have been done. But very, very tough. I see neither a strategic failure on behalf of progressives, nor "enabling" behavior on behalf of moderates**, nor bad faith on behalf of conservatives. Nothing was yanked away from progressives -- they set a very high bar, worked their butts off, and just barely failed to clear it.


** The one possible exception -- the White House -- which was pretty darn popular when this debate began and wasn't willing to gamble much of its political capital.

128 comments

Jenny said...

*

FIRST!

mikelow1885 said...

Great points, but you're preaching to the lefty choir here. Try telling this to Jane Hamsher, Chris Bowers or mcjoan.

This is a bill that could have passed six months ago, and it would have been hailed as a important first step. The problem is that health care reform has to be approached incrementally. Clinton went for too much in 1993-94, and the Democrats nearly made the same mistake this year.

Wasting all this time have dragged down the Democrats and Obama's numbers, as unemployment still sits at 10%. Let's see if a jobs bill passed by the SOTU, then maybe the numbers will improve.

Burt said...

Well, there's no denying anymore what the White House wants, is there? Rahm Emmanuel told Reid to cave in to Lieberman, so I guess all those times when Obama said "I support the public option," it was just empty, meaningless rhetoric. Which is something Obama seems to be good at.

Obama has been a complete disaster. For the sake of the future of the progressive movement, we need to loudly and publicly distance ourselves from this ineffectual corporatist as soon as possible.

It's time to kill this piece of shit. And it should be progressives who kill it.

Jenny said...

mikelow1885,

Actually, Chris Bowers supports the legislation.

Burt,

your opinion doesn't count, since you're not a voter.

Burt said...

Oh look, my stalker is here.

Jenny said...

Burt,

your opinion doesn't count, since you're not a voter.

Blue South said...

Bad Faith from Lieberman. Today he says he is 100% opposed to the Medicare expansion, yet there is video of him just 3 months ago saying not just that he supported it, but trying to take credit for the idea.

You can't negotiate with a liar.

Burt said...

You can't negotiate with a liar.

But you can cave in to them completely and give them everything they want.

Obama and Reid just proved that.

Jenny said...

Ezra Klein explains why this bill is good, that will save 150,000 lives during the next 10 years. Of course the volvo-left doesn't care about the working poor.

msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#34423149

Jenny said...

Burt,

your opinion doesn't count, since you're not a voter.

Eric said...


But you can cave in to them completely and give them everything they want.

Obama and Reid just proved that.


There's definitely some truth to this.

However, there is another way to look at it (which may or may not be valid, and I can't really argue with someone saying is a bullshit way to look at it) - that the Dems took what was a fight between them and the GOP for healthcare reform, and turned it to a negotiation between liberal and conservative Dems.

Which certainly has disadvantages (most notably in looking like a fractured party, but certainly the appearance of being weak and ineffective as well), but has one huge advantage - the GOP has been relegated to the role of teabaggers shouting 'no health care reform!', whereas the Dems look (more vaguely) like adults negotiating over a bill. And realistically - the amount the Dems would have had to give up to get GOP votes is far more than just removing the public option.

Burt said...

And a better bill would have saved even more lives, but of course the brain-dead trolls don't care about that...

Gene said...

Okay, but does any of this apply to the conference committee bill? After that it only needs 50 votes to go to the President. What stops them from putting it in then?

I remember back at the start of all this, Obama telegraphed that he would be putting the most pressure on during the conference committee stage. And it would explain why they're willing to give in to Lieberman now. They'll just change it back later after he can no longer hold anything up. Am I missing something that would prevent this?

Jenny said...

Burt,

your opinion doesn't count, since you're not a voter.

Market Factors said...

Yes... the little matter of who sits in the White House. Just the one thing... if only we had elected a Democratic President, we might have got some support for a public option or Medicare Buy in. Why, I bet if we had a Democrat in the White House, who could fight for the middle class, he might even have changed some minds. Too bad Democrats lost in 2008, if we had won the White House it may have turned out differently.

Sacto Joe said...

The public option is "revenue neutral". It doesn't need 60 votes to pass.

AND IT NEVER HAS!

Am I the only one to see that this has all been a game to pass THE REST OF THE HEALTH CARE BILL???

Jenny said...

Gene,

The republicans can still filibuster after conference.

60 votes will be needed to end it.

ghbraves said...

Thank you, Nate Silver.

As always, right on target, while understanding how things ACTUALLY work in the real world, and not in the persistently louder echo chamber that is the liberal blogosphere.

You're absolutely right.

filistro said...

Gene... I asked that question this morning, but nobody seemed to be certain. I'd be very interested to know how much can be changed in conference.

I found this online:

D. Conference Committee

1. Members from each house form a conference committee and meet to work out the differences. The committee is usually made up of senior members who are appointed by the presiding officers of the committee that originally dealt with the bill. The representatives from each house work to maintain their version of the bill.
2. If the Conference Committee reaches a compromise, it prepares a written conference report, which is submitted to each chamber.
3. The conference report must be approved by both the House and the Senate.


But so profound is my ignorance... I don't even know what constitutes "approval by both the House and the Senate."

Is that yet another vote... or what?

DCM in FL said...

as mentioned earlier today, Progressives need to cry loudly & complain that this will be a terrible bill & stamp our feet in disgust [but vote AYE anyway]

anything less will encourage the CONs to continue the battle to screw the PROGs [strategically gotta let them think they won & wore ya down or they will move the goalposts back further again]

it is like Lucy pulling away the football every time ol' Charlie Brown runs up to kick it through the goalposts...

shrinkers said...

Eric has a point. The Republicants have proven they are irrelevant. Nothing they said or did had any effect on the history of this bill.

A bill will still pass, even though they want nothing. The negotiation was between the Dems and the DINOs.

If this is played right, Dems will pick up a couple of seats in 2010, because the vast majority of the American public wants real health care reform. And they know who is standing in the way of that.

And Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter.

Burt said...

Eric - You missed one huge disadvantage, and that's the fact that the Democrats now own this shit sandwich completely. The Republicans are just going to sit back and laugh - none of them are going to give the Dems bipartisan cover on this, and why should they? The bill is already massively unpopular, and it'll only get more so after it passes and people are faced with skyrocketing premiums and no protection against the insurance companies' ability to deny their claims.

If I were a Republican strategist, I'd be salivating right about now.

Jenny said...

Exactly, shrinkers.

Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter.

filistro said...

Sacto Joe... so since the public option is revenue neutral, they're just going to shoehorn it into the bill at some later date?

Now, that's really interesting.

(Though poor Burt would have nothing at all to yell about, and his head would explode.)

filistro said...

Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter.

Gene said...

I found this explanation of the conference: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/jim_horney_walks_you_through_c.html

The relevant quote: "It still can be filibustered, but in general, you cannot offer amendments to it. You either approve it or disapprove it."

shma said...

filistro, Gene

Conference report 'approval' is a vote in both the House and the Senate. In the Senate, the matter is taken up immediately and there is no opportunity to delay debate. However, this debate is not subject to time limits other than those imposed by a) unanimous consent (everyone agrees to waive the right to debate) b) a cloture vote or c) special exemptions for budget bills or reconciliation bills. Anything else, and an HCR conference bill falls under this category, can be filibustered.

For details see here, here or here for details.

"filistro/Jenny said...

Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter."

Stop this bullshit trolling. Burt's opinions are as valid as anyone else's.

Jenny said...

filistro said...

But so profound is my ignorance... I don't even know what constitutes "approval by both the House and the Senate."

Is that yet another vote... or what?
==================================

The House and the Senate will BOTH have to approve the conference report.

For example, if the House approved a tax increase of 2% and the Senate approved a tax increase of 4%, and in conference they compromised and approved a 3% increase, they would both have to vote on measure, since neither body approved an exact 3% increase.

shma said...

Gene,

Ah, I see you already found that last link.

DCM in FL said...

this is GREAT NEWS - FOR JOHN McCAIN !!!

shrinkers said...

The nice think about passing something -- anything -- is that things can be done later to improve it. Not just in conference -- but in future years. Establishing a precedent that Congress can, in fact, pass a health care reform bill -- even a weak one -- means they can do more later.

To the extent that this bill is unpopular, it is because it is not liberal enough. The Dems can really punish the Republicants and the DINOs on that score.

Concern trolls who want to pretend the the President gets to dictate legislation to Congress can't change that fact. Concern trolls who want us to turn against the President because DINOs are in the pocket of insurance companies can't change the truth of the matter -- that we can get a better bill every time we come back to it. And we can come back to it whenever we want to.

And Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter.

Jenny said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Jenny said...

shma,

no they're not. He/She has already said he/she will not vote.

If you're not a voter, then you have no right to complain.

I mean, what if a congressman said he or she would not vote for OR against health care reform under any circumstance - that person would lose his/her authority to complain.

filistro said...

shma, jenny... thanks for the info.

I don't know if I have the endurance to make it right to the end of this marathon. There's a photo at TPM of Rahm Emanuel looking haggard and red-eyed. No wonder.

Obama, OTOH... still calm. Still cool.

Astonishing.

DCM in FL said...

FILISTRO

reminds me of those SNL skits parodying Ashford & Simpson 'SOLID' [solid as Barack]...

wv - heroid [don't go there]

shrinkers said...

@filistro
Sacto Joe... so since the public option is revenue neutral, they're just going to shoehorn it into the bill at some later date?

This was always a possibility. There has been talk since like February or March that a bill might be passed without a public option -- but that one could be added in using reconciliation.

Nothing's over till it's over. And as long as we have a Congress, and a Democrat as brilliant and long-sighted as Obama, it's not over.

shma said...

The value of an opinion lies in its logic, not who is making it.

For instance this

"If you're not a voter, then you have no right to complain."

is a opinion that stands directly opposite to basic logic. For example, if you feel an election doesn't offer you any real choice then you have every right to not vote and to complain about your lack of choice.

"I mean, what if a congressman said he or she would not vote for OR against health care reform under any circumstance - that person would lose his/her authority to complain."

Again, this goes completely against the facts. A congressman can vote 'present' or 'abstain' and still voice their doubts about the bill.

This comment section was created to allow people to voice their own opinions.

You've already said you don't care about Burt's posts. Fine. Repeating that message over and over again verbatim and wasting space in the comments section is the definition of abusive trolling. If you want to troll, do it somewhere else.

Jenny said...
This post has been removed by the author.
filistro said...

Here is what pretty much all the Freepers are saying (oddly, they're even more pissed off than our Burt):

To: Free ThinkerNY

As I've said many times; Socialized Medicine is a done deal.

It may be a watered-down INITIALLY plan, but it will grow and grow until it is SINGLE-PAYER, NO PRIVATE INSURERS will survive, and this first passage is the beginning of the government complete takeover of the Healthcare Industry, just as they have taken over banking, autos, etc.

This will pass before year-end, and I expect the State-Run-Media to step up its propoganda praising the "compromise" solution to the PROBLEM that doesn't exist.

Another power grab is almost complete.

15 posted on December 14, 2009

Jenny said...

Shrinkers,

Ezra Klein has a GREAT post on using the reconciliation process to pass HCR.

http://snipurl.com/tozzn

Unfortunately, it's not black and white. On one hand you get the public option, on the other hand you lose the chance to eliminating the ban on pre-existing conditions.

It's as if they give you meatballs, but take away the pasta and sauce. So, in the end, it depends on your appetite and what you want: carbs or protein. Ezra says go for the carbs now.

Jenny said...

filistro.

You're exactly right.

If this is such a bad bill, then why are they wingers, the republicans, and the insurance companies completely against it.

I mean the wingers will have a major freaky meltdown when this passes.

Burt said...

Are you seriously basing an argument on what the Freepers think?

Really?

I guess you're welcome to do that, but I'm not about to let the opinions of a group of people who still think Obama is a secret Muslim influence what I think about an issue one way or the other.

filistro said...

I'm not arguing, Burt... I'm just reporting.

In fact the Freepers are the mirror image of you. They're far right, you're far left. If both of you HATE something, I tend to think maybe it's not such a bad thing.

Rahmsputin said...

Despite the shrieking from a tiny minority of online "activists," the reality is that Obama's actual base (i.e., lower income African-American and Hispanic workers) are going to be the primary beneficiaries of this bill and they're going to view the subsidies as Obama delivering in a big way. I work for a progressive anti-poverty group that did quite a bit of lobbying during the SFC negotiations and my bosses are pretty thrilled about what they were able to get in this bill. Anyone that thinks passing this is going to be politically damaging to Obama needs to get off the blogs and realize that most people don't equate health care reform with "punishing the insurance companies." This bill, PO or no, is going to be very popular among the Democrats' key constituencies and the President knows it.

But, as is always the case when a Dem is in the White House, the usual suspects are hard at work affirming the intellectual, if not the moral, equivalency between certain elements of the far left and far right. I really look forward to the day when I don't have to listen to anyone else screech about how providing a marginal tax incentive to buy insurance is the same thing as slavery. And I really, really look forward to the day when I don't have to listen to people making the completely incoherent argument that a public option is necessary because the regulations that would actually make the public option affordable aren't going to work.

Jenny said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Jenny said...

Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter.

On the other hand, Filstro's post matters, as she's a voter.

Jenny said...

Well said, Rahmsputin. BRAVO!

As I said earlier, the volvo-internet-left doesn't care about the working-poor.

filistro said...

Rahm...Anyone that thinks passing this is going to be politically damaging to Obama needs to get off the blogs and realize that most people don't equate health care reform with "punishing the insurance companies." This bill, PO or no, is going to be very popular among the Democrats' key constituencies and the President knows it.


That's so heartening... especially coming from someone out in the real world where all this actually means something.

Thank you.

Burt said...

They're far right, you're far left.

Wrong. I'm not even far left. I am a pragmatic progressive who supported Obama in both the primary and the general election because he was promising to be a pragmatic, center-left president. I did not expect that he would side with progressives on every single issue. I did, however, expect that "pragmatic" meant that he would at least try to implement policy that actually dealt with the problems our nation is facing. Turns out I was wrong about that, and I won't make the mistake of voting for him again.

But really, that's neither here nor there. You can rail against me as much as you like, and it might make you feel better, but the simple fact is that it's not only the far left and the far right that opposes this bill. About 60% of the public is opposed, and you don't get that high level of opposition with just the far left and the far right.

There are a lot more people like me out there than you want to admit.

melissa said...

I think that there should be reforms to Medicare. Many seniors, a small minority but nevertheless a significant amount have to worry about affording the next drugs or buying for food.

I want Medicare part D abolished, the one that the christian crusaders passed in 2005, during the time when they were so concerned about Terri Schaivo

I hope they pass this health care bill, people lives should not be a profit, and this is coming from a party that is Pro Life.

Jenny said...

Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter.

melissa said...

I am concerned about other things wrong with health care. there was a teabagger townhall in my district, a city or two away because my city is very liberal but it was in my district, where the teabaggers gathered to discuss health care.

One guy was a doctor, and he said that he will not treat anyone who is on medicare or medical. he said that he went to years of medical school to make money, so he should get paid accordingly to it.

another guy was an insurance broker, who said that he was really proud that he is do not have any health care, private or public and when his son swallow a dart, he was proud to paid 5,000 operation to save his son's life. he said that he choose not to get private insurance because he don't trust them but he also don't like the high premimum because of the government. basically, he believes that it is the government's fault that private insurance is so expansive.

one guy did make some sense, where he said that the poor had been using the emergency room as a regular clinic and they have to bill it to the state but the state are not paying the hospital the money they need, so many nurses and doctors had to be laid off.

what I want to know is how will be solve #3 question? What is the hospitals goes bankrupt?

shrinkers said...

shma, yes, Burt's opinion is valid. It just doesn't count, because Burt said he isn't going to vote. Voting is the way you get counted.

filistro, another way we know the bill actually means something is that concern trolls are still trying to tell us that we should hate Obama if it passes. So it isn't just the honest (but emptyheaded) teabaggers and the honest (but strictly partisan) Republicants and the honest (but really really dumb) DKos-ers who tell us not to like it. It's the dishonest concern trolls, too.

Rahmsputin, thank you for a report from the Real World (tm). We need the base to turn out in 2010 and 2012, the same people who elected Obama and who swept Dems into Congress in 2006 and 2008. These people can make even more progress in the next few years -- particularly if they get mad at the Party of No! that keeps getting in the way of fixing things -- and then pretending it was Obama's fault. (No one with two brain cells to rub together is gonna buy that one.)

We need people to be mad. We need them to be mad at the obstructionists. And we have to realize, the wonks like us who frequent political blogs are a tiny minority.

shrinkers said...

@melissa -

One problem with "town hall" meetings these days is that often people come in from other areas -- maybe other states -- to spread talking points. Your doctor there may have been a tool. You don't know if it was a doctor. If indeed people on Medicare start complaining in significant numbers that they can't get treatment, the media (Fox Noise doesn't count) will pick it up. So far, people love Medicare and aren't complaining.

For the insurance broker -- if even he doesn't like insurance, there is clearly something wrong. The solution, obviously, is for more people like him to say we need to get rid of insurance companies. Suits me fine -- let's go to universal Medicare, which is loved by the people who use it.

For the hospitals -- they used to all be non-profit, by law. We need to go back to that. There is no excuse for making health care a business. If hospital start going bankrupt, we'll need a TARP-like bailout for them -- and then they need to be nationalized. That works for me.

shma said...

"shma, yes, Burt's opinion is valid. It just doesn't count, because Burt said he isn't going to vote. Voting is the way you get counted."

On this board, everyone's honest opinion counts.

I'm Canadian. Does that mean some juvenile troll should follow every one of my posts with the statement "Shma can't vote so his opinion doesn't count"?

shrinkers said...

@melissa -

Another thing about the doctors (if these really are doctors) who say they want to turn away Medicare recipients because Medicare doesn't pay them enough -- seriously, I want a doctor who is in the profession because he or she wants to help people, not because they want a second boat.

The doctor you describe is a great argument in favor of also reforming education. There is no reason that a doctor should come out of college with even a dime of debt. If said doctors earn a decent wage -- a wage suitable for a skilled professional -- and don't have crushing college loans to pay off, what more could anyone want?

Medicare reimbursement is more than adequate. We need a reform that simply pays off all existing college loans for medical professionals. It would cost a lot less than Bush's unnecessary wars, and do a hellova lot more good.

Andrew Selbst said...

Nate, this is a bit of revisionist history you're writing yourself, with your "one possible exception" at the end of the post undermining your argument completely. It was winnable if the White House had tried to win it, as you wrote a few times over the summer. But you may be right, as long as the White House had no interest in it, the fight was mostly not winnable. That's a huge caveat, and as usual over the last year, Obama is to blame. Obama basically told the dealership that they didn't really have to sell the car at all, and thus gave away all leverage.

And the progressives did not set a high bar at all - that would have been starting out with single payer care, knowing they would compromise to a public option. Instead we took the public option over a straight giveaway to insurance companies. This was the bare minimum.

Finally, the fact that progressives have not behaved "irrationally" in the past (though I dispute that making a power grab on any big issue is "irrational"), is just the reason that progressives needed to torpedo any bill that did not have this. The political climate must change so that they are taken seriously, period. If not, there will be no good health care, but also no law on global warming, etc. That is the most important thing, and even passing crap healthcare is shortsighted in that, as well-intentioned as not torpedoing the bill would be.

Pragmatus said...

Folks, Burt is a concern troll, who pretends to be a “progressive” here so he can take digs at the president, healthcare reform, and Medicare all while seeming to be very “concerned” (i.e. with crocodile tears) over health care reform.

Just let him rattle folks. He is a stalking horse/spy from the folks over at Anal Retentives Anonymous, a.k.a. Freeperville.

shrinkers said...

Shma -

A valid point. You don't vote because you can't, not being an American citizen (I assume that was your point -- please correct me if I got that wrong). But someone who can vote and chooses not to is intentionally taking him- or herself out of the process. Someone who merely wants to complain rather than contribute should be treated as someone who wants to merely complain rather than contribute.

I used to be involved in running a number of annual events. The committees who ran those events had two kinds of people -- those who showed up to work, and those who showed up to complain but didn't want to work. The complainers insisted they be listened to -- but refused to take any responsibility for the decisions they tried to force upon those who were willing to do the work.

The committees also took advice from people who attended the annual events, and a lot of what we tried to accomplish was geared toward their concerns. But naturally enough, attendees are in a different category from those who are nominally on the committee running the thing.

The analogy is not perfect, not by a long shot. But I would put you, and others like you, in a category similar to attendees. You are affected by the decisions America makes. You have valuable insights and thoughts to offer. Your contributions are welcome.

Someone who could contribute -- but who wants, instead, to do nothing but complain -- is in a different category altogether.

Voters have to take responsibility for their decisions. Non-voters (who could have voted) are simply self-indulgent.

melissa said...

@ Shrinker

thanks dude, I was appalled by what that doctor said because I think that being a doctor is not about making a profit, it is about saving people lives.

Then again, I didn't attend the teabagger's townhall, it was reported in my local newspaper. the doctor also happen to be a glenn beck lover, because in the article, he apprently show up with his birth certificate, so he could have been a troll.

The only person that make sense was the male nurse who work at the emergency room at the hospital, because he have seen many of his colleague being laid off because so many poor people have been using the emergency room.

he was not a teabagger but he is concerned that if we expanded medicare or have a public option, would hospitals go bankrupt?

also, at the end of the teabaggers townhall, one of the liberal at went to the mic and ask if anyone was on social security or medicare, and half of the people in the room raised their hands. the lady then informed everyone that was raising their hand to refuse their next SS paycheck on principal or not go to the doctor if they are on medicare.

I am assuming that the majority of the teabaggers are older, ill informed white seniors who fears black people and not the government, because many of them are on medicare and Social security.

shrinkers said...

@Pragmatus

That is certainly my take on him as well. As I said a bit ago, even concern trolls don't like this bill. That must mean it's important for us to push it ahead. And to ignore the slams against our President.

Typical of Republican hypocrisy, during the Bush administration, we were told constantly that we need to support the President, particularly during times of war. Elect a Democrat, and it is their patriotic duty to oppose everything he does.

InteriorDesignNinja said...

I think the progressives should try to force the public option through anyway.

If it fails, the blame falls on Republicans. If it wins, great.

But by sacrificing it themselves, don't *they* take responsibility for removing the most popular part of the bill?

shrinkers said...

@melissa -

If someone shows up with a birth certificate, you can ignore anything they say. They're there for propaganda purposes, nothing more, and there's an easy test to tell when they are lying. Their lips move.

A public option or expanded Medicare will not make any hospitals go bankrupt. These are right wing talking points with no basis in reality.

And for the male nurse you mentioned -- if indeed the hospital is laying of people, that is a powerful argument in favor of non-profit subsidized hospitals. VA hospitals, for example, don't go bankrupt.

shrinkers said...
This post has been removed by the author.
mikeleone56 said...

Nate,

You seem to be falling into the habit lately of focusing most of your posts on chiding Democrats for demanding that the Democrats they worked so hard to elect act like Democrats once elected.

I know that this is a very popular genre of commentary inside the Beltway, but it's not very original and strays from what you and this blog do best.

As to the substance of your post, how bout Joe Lieberman? Only 3 MONTHS AGO, he was touting a Medicare buy-in as his alternative to the public option. Reid put him in the group that negotiated it. And NOW he says that he opposes it. How's that for moving the goalposts?

I'm very surprised that you fail to see what a failure subsidies will be without cost control. This should be in your economics wheelhouse. Without cost control, insurers will simply raise their rates in amounts roughly equivalent to the amount of the subsidies. It might not happen immediately, or all at once, but over time the insurers will have no reason not to do this. It's free money. And taxpayers will be spending billions a year and getting nothing for it.

Mandates without cost control and lower premiums will be a policy disaster and a political disaster. Healh care will be as unaffordable as ever, and Republicans will be there saying they were against it the whole time. Much of the electorate will be confused and figure it's time to give the other side a chance. Dem turnout will be depressed and Republicans will return to power.

It's clear that you've been against the PO from the beginning, and think that Dems should take whatever they can get. At this point you're just repeating yourself. Time for a new analysis.

juvanya said...

Nate,
You are an idiot.

Saying any reform bill should make "progressives" happy is like saying a penny found by a homeless man will make him rich.

Opus 132 said...

Does anyone have an idea why the our Democrats are not talking about forcing Republicans to actually mount a filibuster? This would seem to be a relatively clean way to get Medicare expansion (a must as far as I'm concerned) and other goodies.

I think that if they had done so, Lieberman would have thought twice before opening his fucking mouth today!

In essence,Reid and Rahm chose caving in to Lieberman over breaking the filibuster.Incomprehensible!

Anthony said...

I am pretty tired of arguing - it's just ludicrous.

To all the silly people that think massive subsidies to private for-profit insurers is a good idea: fine, just know that your premiums will continue to outpace inflation by a factor of three or four forever. It must be a pretty swell gig to work for a favored corporation, since the government will always be there to hand you some tax money. The public option was and will continue to be popular with an overwhelming majority of Americans and now stupid Democrats won't benefit one bit from delivering for their constituents.

Without a public option the senate should simply pass decent new regulations and leave it at that. There is a moral obligation to provide subsidies to those who cannot afford care, but it should be a direct payment.

To gift more and more taxpayer money to contractors that serve rotten food to our soldiers, banksters that manipulate markets while extracting crushing rents, and insurance companies which function only to avoid covering services that their customers have rightly paid for, is to continue on a road to hell.

Sorry.

Mike in Maryland said...

Opus 132 said...
Does anyone have an idea why the our Democrats are not talking about forcing Republicans to actually mount a filibuster? This would seem to be a relatively clean way to get Medicare expansion (a must as far as I'm concerned) and other goodies.

I think that if they had done so, Lieberman would have thought twice before opening his fucking mouth today!

In essence, Reid and Rahm chose caving in to Lieberman over breaking the filibuster. Incomprehensible
!

Kindly read this post by Gene:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/public-option-fight-may-not-have-been.html#comment-854627177513675285 , especially the second paragraph, which discusses the conference committee.

Hint - there is no conference committee until a bill has passed both chambers. Unless I've Rip van Winkled, the Senate hasn't passed a bill yet, so there still hasn't been a conference committee appointed, let alone worked on a HCR bill.

And also consider that when it comes time to vote on a final bill (AFTER it comes out of conference), it is an up or down vote, with limited opportunities to amend. After all, the bill that goes to the President for signature is THE bill, not two versions of the same bill. In other words, there cannot be even a comma's difference in what the Senate passes and what the House passes when it is sent to the President.

When you consider what Gene stated, and realize that the conference committee bill will differ from the House bill and the finalized Senate bill, it might make the 'incomprehensible' comprehensible.

Mike in Maryland

huy said...

@Andrew Selbast:

"It was winnable if the White House had tried to win it, as you wrote a few times over the summer. But you may be right, as long as the White House had no interest in it, the fight was mostly not winnable. That's a huge caveat, and as usual over the last year, Obama is to blame. Obama basically told the dealership that they didn't really have to sell the car at all, and thus gave away all leverage."

-----------------------

I think it's wrong to assume that the White House had no interest in the public option (or Medicare buy-in). The WH likely surveyed the landscape long before ramping up its public push for HCR. No WH is going to press for something that's not realistically achievable. [That even applies for the Democratic icons FDR and LBJ whose efforts have been subjected to no shortage of rosy progressive revisionism.]

Additionally, anyone who takes an objective look at this bill knows that it will do tremendous good for millions of Americans, even without the public option or Medicare buy-in. So, if you already know that those types of issues are deal-breakers for some members of the Democratic caucus, you don't expend extra political capital to push something that's not going to pass and something that could potentially kill a bill that would tremendous good for millions of Americans.

I'm completely on board with Nate's analysis, except the part about the political capital. Part of successfully using political capital is knowing how to expend it wisely. Expending excessive capital on something they knew would not pass would have been foolish, and would have likely imperiled HCR legislation (itself the most progressive in generations) and have done even greater damage to Obama's and Democrats' standing, making it even more difficult to advance other aspects of the Democratic agenda.

So, to continue this car analogy, Obama didn't tell the dealership "that they didn't really have to sell the car at all." Instead, Obama pulled out his Kelly Bluebook, checked the price, and new exactly what needed to be paid to actually purchase the car with a few upgrades already included, knowing that other bells and whistles could be added "aftermarket" (i.e., future amendments) at a relatively cheaper (political) cost.

Progressives wanted the shiny car with all the bells and whistles now, but that just wasn't ever in the budget (figuratively). Knowing that a car was needed now, and that, for the sake of millions of Americans dying each year from lack of insurance or underinsurance, we couldn't just walk away with nothing, Obama took the deal that he could get.

He may take heat from some on the left on this, but the people who are finally able to ride in the car won't be upset. They weren't looking for all the bells and whistles. They just wanted something that would get them from point A to point B.

Erza Klein made a good point on Olbermann: Somewhere along the line, many on the left lost sight of just what this bill will do. It's been vilified as "not REAL reform," but how can you call a bill that will literally save thousands of lives, not real reform? How is it that a bill that will keep insurance companies from refusing to pay for chemotherapy "not REAL reform?" How is a bill that will allow a poor mother's baby a chance to actually get consistent healthcare "not REAL reform?"

DCM in FL said...

BHO should have powsitioned HCR as one pillar of his JOBS & Economic recovery plan.

better health care - especially universal/single payer for ALL citizens has the potential to grow the economy with a jump start.

more health care jobs as all the un & under-insured [including myself] flock to Drs & hospitals & get prescriptions for all the ills that we have been postponing cuz we cannot afford 'em at this time.

also, HCR would keep BILLIONS of $$$ each & every year here in the USA that are currently being exported overseas [outsourced] as americans ship out for medical tourism.

even the insurers are sending their insured overseas nowe to take advantage of cheaper rates - so hospital beds stand empty & Drs are losing potential income by the gross.

single payer/Medicare for all would give a big boost to the economy immediately, allow hospitals to staunch the literal bleeding [ERs & empty beds are strangling the industry & driving UP rates for everything]

THEN go back & make health care insurance supplementals available through non-profit public option unless the privates get competitive immediately.

and then we can move on green industries to create more good jobs & keep the $$$ here in the USA.

make it all about JOBS & keeping the $$$ at home - cuz it is true if done correctly = win/win/win for everyone [except the insurers & Pharma if they still refuse to play fair]

Robbie said...

Yay Obama! We're moving the criminals to NYC to prosecute them and finally put them to justice. We're getting the very first health care reform bill! FINALLY! The economy is slowly recovering from the disaster of George W. Bush. He's made a decision about Afghanistan and after this ramp-up, we're getting the hell outta there. Cap-n-Trade legislation is moving through Congress! We're finally getting what we've been pining for for a DECADE! If I hear another liberal cry and complain I'm defecting to the Republicans!(yeah right) So just shut up!

Steven said...

Joe Lieberfuck

Opus 132 said...

@ Mike in Maryland

Mike,I'm very aware of how bills move through Congress and what the rules are.Perhaps I should've been more explicit as to way I'm furious about caving in to Lieberman on Medicare expansion.

I consider the proposed Meicare expansion provision as the quickest way to get to the Promised land,Medicare For All. (Disclosure;I'm on Medicare and have been for years.)

But now,due to caving in to Lieberman,Medicare expansion apparently will not be in the final Senate bill and as it is not in the final House bill,it will not be in the final bill produced by the Congressional Committee.Thus my fury!

shiloh said...

Steven said...

Joe Lieberfuck
~~~~~~~~~~


Interesting Lieberman gave a speech at the 2008 Rep convention supporting McCain and cheney/bush did not appear.

Which will probably be the same scenario at the 2012 Rep convention where Lieberman will be staunchly supporting the Rep nominee palin!

and Guiliani will give another 9/11 speech ;) while McCain will tell everyone what a great C-in-C palin will be ...

You bet'cha!

loner said...

August 25, 1994 - Democratic leaders of both congressional chambers give up on health care and announce they are letting their members go home for their much-postponed vacation. Neither the Senate (where Democrats outnumber Republicans fifty-six to forty-four) nor the House (with a Democratic majority of 257 to 176) has come close to passing, or even voting on, any health bill.

...

September 26, 1994 - At a news conference in the Capitol, George Mitchell pulls the plug on health care reform.

...

Late 1994 - As the Gingrich Revolution in Congress prepares to assume office, a Gallup poll shows that 72 percent of the public lists major health care reform as a top or high priority. Only crime and deficit reduction rank higher.

I think that back then, when a good number of the people posting on political bulletin boards actually knew something about how their government worked, I started posting Pink Floyd lyrics regularly somewhere around June:

Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried.

Quixote said...

@shrinkers:

Voting is very nearly the absolute least that one can do and still be said to be participating in the US political process at all, and it is most certainly not a prerequisite for doing something more. I realize that it is common to fetishize voting as the sine qua non of political life, but I don't think that's a reasonable or realistic assessment. (Not that I would agree that prior participation is relevant to the value of someone's comments on a blog in the first place.)

And even if you were entirely correct, Jenny would remain a juvenile, creepy troll repeatedly posting an ad hominem attack on another commenter.

As for health care: at this point I'm just hoping to see something that is a foothold for more substantial reform rather than an unwieldy monstrosity that undermines what public support there is. The bit about the briar patch works both ways.

Geoff said...

$100 billion a year in new welfare to create many more dependent Americans on the federal government - what's not to like, right liberals?

How about you leftist smucks work for a living, buy your own insurance, instead of sucking off the government tit for 100 billion a year?

that's your big accomplishment?
PATHETIC.

OBAMACARE=EPIC FAIL

Burt said...

I think that all the people here trolling me and attacking me for being a "concern troll" (who was posting in support of Obama here back during the primaries) are just angry because they know, deep down, that this bill is a piece of shit, and they also know, deep down, that it could have been much better if Obama had been willing to fight for real reform.

But rather than face the unpleasant truth that the president they voted for has turned out to be just another corporate whore, they'd rather take shots at me. Well, that's fine. Whatever gets you guys through the night.

And when a big chunk of the base doesn't show up in 2010 and 2012, just keep telling yourselves that we all don't count.

Cujo359 said...

I think this is utter nonsense. Yes, those four Senators have always been against a public option. There are many things that Senators are against that they will nonetheless allow cloture on. Where were the votes against telecom immunity, for instance? Many supposedly progressive Senators voted for cloture, only to put up a meaningless protest vote against the bill.

If the Senate leadership and the President had insisted, this bill would have passed cloture. It didn't, and the reason has everything to do with the leadership not wanting it enough to twist arms for it.

What we're left with is worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, because the insurance companies will now get a guarantee that every American will have to have insurance. The government will do the same bangup job of enforcing the regulations as they've done regulating the rest of the financial industry.

Burt said...

Progressives wanted the shiny car with all the bells and whistles now,

Bullshit. I keep hearing this criticism directed at progressives - that we wanted a perfect bill. That's just bullshit. Progressives have made compromise after compromise after compromise, and the reason that lots of progressives are so pissed off now is precisely because they had resigned themselves to supporting, however reluctantly, the very far from perfect bill that Reid came out with recently.

So saying that progressives are unhappy because we wanted a perfect bill is an attack that's fabricated out of pure bullshit. We gave up on a perfect bill when we gave up single-payer.

But anyway, as much as people here like to hate on progressives, we aren't even the biggest thing you have to be concerned about. You remember all those young voters? Those 18-29 year olds who put Obama in the White House by turning out in record numbers and voting for him 2 to 1 over John McCain? Well, Obama and the Democratic leadership are about to pass a health care "reform" bill that gives them nothing except a legal requirement to buy junk insurance from a private insurance company with no meaningful cost controls and no restrictions on said insurance company's ability to deny their claims.

Do you think those voters are going to turn out for the Democrats again, after being kicked in the teeth like that?

Don't bother answering. For those of you who are slow, that's one of those rhetorical questions.

Bram Reichbaum said...

He's already protecting his legacy. A trend which should be watched. I was expecting more audacity from this President.

Oh well. To arms, and pass the bill. We can refine the mission for the rest of its existence, but this would be well and truly committing to it.

huy said...

"I keep hearing this criticism directed at progressives - that we wanted a perfect bill. That's just bullshit. Progressives have made compromise after compromise after compromise, and the reason that lots of progressives are so pissed off now is precisely because they had resigned themselves to supporting, however reluctantly, the very far from perfect bill that Reid came out with recently."

---------------

I wasn't saying that progressives wanted a perfect bill. I was intimating that progressives were pushing for more than they were going to get.

There are people who were never going to give much ground because of corporate interest, spite, self-preservation, etc. Remember, not everyone voting for this bill comes from a state where Obama is popular. [Landrieu, Lincoln, Nelson and Conrad immediately come to mind. It's no coincidence that these Senators were the most reluctant to go along with everyone else.]

Also, speaking of nonsense, I keep hearing progressives talk about how they "compromised" on single-payer. Single-payer was NEVER seriously on the table. Do you really think that if passing a weak public option has been so difficult a single-payer system would have ever been attempted?

And to deny that progressives didn't want all the "bells and whistles" is to deny existential progressivism. Progressives aren't inclined toward incrementalism. And, if we really peel back all the layers of progressive angst, that's the problem here: that this bill "doesn't go far enough." The same critique exists for virtually everything Obama and the Democrats have done. The problem is that the "doesn't go far enough" critique has distorted many progressives' ability to see quite how progressive many of the changes in this bill (and other changes that Obama has made have been).

The system is inclined toward the preservation of the status quo, or at most, negligible incrementalism vis-a-vis social progress. So, to accomplish what the Democrats are on the verge of accomplishing isn't the "failure" many progressives are deeming it. It is genuine progressive change.

I get that progressives will continue pushing to make it better. That's good. But, let's not lose sight of the big picture here.

George In Florida said...

Nate:

While many dems were against the public option, that did not mean that they would vote against cloture.

One example is Landrieu:

"I'm not right now inclined to support any filibuster," she told HuffPost.

And (on the filibuster)"For the Republican Party to kind of step out of the game is very unfortunate," she said. "I'm not going to be joining people that don't want progress."

My understanding is that the cloture vote was up to 59, but the vote on the bill was probably closer to 54.

filistro said...

Burt... two questions for you:

1.) What, exactly, WAS the "public option?" Please, no buzzwords or cliches, define this "option" for us in terms that could be understood by the checkout person at your local Walmart.

2.) How many Americans would have been affected by it?

Thank you.

JamesY said...

Burt,

"no protection against the insurance companies' ability to deny their claims."

do you know what is in the bill?

Have you read all over 1000 pages?


hmm...neither have I. Can't really tell you exactly what's going on in it.

Eusebio Dunkle said...

@ Jenny and now filistro,

I'll use my vote to further Burt's suggestion. His opinion matters to me, even if he will not vote or is a freeper concern troll... If he is a troll, he's done a great job because I largely agree with him.
FYI, Jenny, I'm a Saab SPG liberal, but I like early 90s volvos as well. Feel free to attack my preference for automobiles, but please don't attack my values.

I'd like to see my boy Keith Ellison stand up and shut it down! At the very least, DCM is correct, progressives need to show everyone how bat shit crazy we are by denouncing this pos bill even if we ultimately pass it.

filistro says,

"They're far right, you're far left. If both of you HATE something, I tend to think maybe it's not such a bad thing."

Possibly. But what might our compromise look like if the issue was framed by the far right and whatever it is you represent?

@ Burt,
I don't think you're right about HC costing progressive votes. That's the main problem, progressives could affect more change if they actually voted for it. However most support the institutions that stand against change.

@huy,

"Single-payer was NEVER seriously on the table. "
How can you say this? A significant minority of the voting block supports such a plan. My representative Keith Ellison supports single payer. Is complete deregulation and cut-throat capitalism on the table? I'd say it is given what I know about the Bachmann supports on the other side of town. Putting the HC bill between these two extremes, IMHO, the system is still far to the right of center. That is my problem. I understand how our country works, but this cannot be the compromise we get from a DFL dominated government. These majorities will not happen again...

Pan said...

Eusebio Dunkle [h] said...

How can you say this? A significant minority of the voting block supports such a plan.


The answer to you question is in a simple edit of your next sentence:

A minority of the voting block supports such a plan.

How likely do you think it is that a position supported by a minority can pass in an environment where it can often take a super-majority of legislators to pass a controversial bill?

Pan said...

a DFL dominated government

And fyi, the DFL is a Minnesota-specific political party. The nationwide party is simply the Democratic Party. Hence, we do not have a DFL dominated government.

You might have already known this and it was just a slip, but I thought I'd point it out in case you were unaware.

Eusebio Dunkle said...

Pan,

Yes it's a minority, but it may be a plurality amongst all the possible HCR possibilities. In any event, it is a valid opinion of many for HCR and moving away from it IS compromise by a significant number of stake holders, including myself and my US congressman. That is my only point.

DFL: A lazy slip. Thanks.

Pan said...

I understand what you're saying, but it is irrelevant. If a minority is for something (plurality or not), the majority is therefore against it. The only exceptions are when people don't care one way or the other. That's not really the case for health care reform. They may be unsure if a particular bill is going to work, but the desire for it to be fixed is pretty widespread.

So you've got a majority against a given position and you expect it to be "seriously" considered? How do you think that would work given that both the people for and against it would know there's no chance in hell of it ever passing? That goes to the very definition of "seriously." You can't be serious about something when you know it's not going to happen.

dsimon said...

Burt: Obama and the Democratic leadership are about to pass a health care "reform" bill that gives them nothing except a legal requirement to buy junk insurance from a private insurance company with no meaningful cost controls and no restrictions on said insurance company's ability to deny their claims.


My understanding is that federal law will impose a floor on the quality of insurance plans, so they won't be "junk." Also, the Senate bill does have the potential to get to meaningful cost controls. Check out this recent New Yorker piece: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/12/14/091214fa_fact_gawande.

Do I want more out of reform? You bet. But that doesn't mean that what comes out of Congress isn't worth passing. We have to start somewhere. No self-respecting liberal would have voted for the original Social Security legislation which didn't include agricultural workers (around 20% of the employed at the time), domestic workers, or government workers, and had no survivor or disability benefits. But if it hadn't passed as it was, the elderly might still be without it today.

And politically, Democrats need deliverables for 2010, such as "we got rid of discrimination on preexisting conditions, and we're on our way to covering tons more people." That's a lot better than coming away with nothing.

Politics is the art of the possible. Sometimes you have to take what you can and move on from there. Issues can be revisited down the road--as they were with Social Security. It's not over with this bill.

WarningTrack said...

"your opinion doesn't count, since you're not a voter."

Do you think repeating this over and over has any value to, well, anyone? At all? Seriously, this is the kind of thing you see during fourth-grade recess. If you want to reply to Burt, reply to Burt. If you don't, then don't reply just to reiterate that you're not going to reply; that's, well, absurd.

Also, whether or not someone's opinion "counts" is irrelevant as to whether or not they're right. I'm not saying I agree with Burt, but the idea that not voting renders his opinion invalid is just flat-out wrong. That can only be true if you believe discussion and debate have no influence on politics -- only voting. And if this is the case, you'd have no reason to argue here in the first place.

Good grief. Logic, people. Not hard.

filistro said...

Warning Track... I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I can't resist an argument when you frame it in terms of logic.

Now, it's not that Burt CAN'T vote because he is too young, not a citizen, whatever. It's that he has stated he REFUSES to vote, because he doesn't like the way politics is being conducted in his own country.

If he has announced his intention not to exercise the powerful means he has of effecting change (a privilege which millions of his fellow countrymen have fought and died to give him) how does his opinion still "count?"

Note that "count" is the operative word here. Burt's opinion might be valid (I'm sure you agree with him that Obama is a crummy president ;-) but Burt himself has already renounced the ONLY means he has of making it "count."

TDBJ said...

Great Post. Thanks a lot.

Pan said...

Seems a bit of a weak argument to me, filistro. If Burt believes that both major parties are basically the same and the problem is endemic in our political system, then there is no point in him voting for one candidate over the other. Coming from that position, it's more of a realist view. What would be the point of going out to vote for a third party when, realistically, you know there aren't enough people to vote them into office?

filistro said...

What would be the point of going out to vote for a third party when, realistically, you know there aren't enough people to vote them into office?

Incrementalism, Pan. If your third party gets more votes with successive elections, it may eventually become a force. Granted it's a long shot, especially in the American system, but it's Something as opposed to Nothing. In Canada the Green Party started out almost as a joke, but is slowly and surely gaining stature with each election. In 1984 they got .21% of the popular vote; in 2008, 6.8%

If nobody ever thinks past the current election, politics will never change.

Pan said...

That's not exactly a compelling counterexample. In 24 years, they've gone from having zero members of parliament to having... zero members of parliament.

And really, the only movement has been in 2004, 2006 and 2008. Prior to that the vote totals were (yes, I can use wikipedia, too):

1984 0.21%
1988 0.36%
1993 0.24%
1997 0.43%
2000 0.81%

Then:

2004 4.32%
2006 4.48%
2008 6.80%

Incrementalism, my ass.

More like voter dissatisfaction in the last 5 years resulting in a still tiny minority vote.

michael said...

@ Filstro

In Canada the Green Party started out almost as a joke, but is slowly and surely gaining stature with each election. In 1984 they got .21% of the popular vote; in 2008, 6.8%

If nobody ever thinks past the current election, politics will never change.


The second part of your sentiment I agree with, no doubt. However, speaking as a former canuck, I can tell you that the fractured left, made up of Liberals, NDP, Green and Bloc Quebecois, get over 60% of the vote, but the most right-wing government in 70 years holds sway, because that vote is divided up among 4 parties where there is no proportional representation.

As to trends, absolutely, the demographic trend is decidedly away from the white rural christian gun-toting GOP base. The country will be majority-minority in 20 years, so the GOP as currently constituted, the white wing nut palinista.beck.limbaugh crowd, will be a rump minority of foaming and screaming paranoia and irrelevance very soon. (Unless we have an armed theocracy imposed, which many in "the family" would like to see.)

However, a dispirited base of progressives and blacks and youth and Latinos and gays will likely sit home in 2010, turned off by the deliberately beaver cleaverish "well that sounds reasonable and reasonable people can disagree, Mr. Hitler" tone of Obama as president, someone determined to act as non-inflammatory and tepid as he was invigorating and inspiring during the campaign. If there is a 25% turnout ala 1994, it will spell large losses for the dems...Lieberman being allowed to make the Dems bend over and pick up the soap in the shower is a surefire way to truly depress the base, a base that LOATHES Lieberman (see Lamont, Ned).

Back to Nate's original point (I think he had one), he raises an excellent thought in that the white house has grossly mishandled Obama on this and many other issues. Reagan, Bush and even Clinton went over the pols heads to get traction on issues, whereas Obama has been a meek and willing captive of the insider Washington game, unilaterally disarming, when his biggest strength is his singular ability to mobilize and fire people up. It is like a Beyonce wearing pants or a Paul Newman wearing sunglasses. It is a waste of an asset. Rahm and co have utterly squandered Obama's talents...

His aloofness as president, seeming so disengaged and lacking in passion, has damaged his causes from stimulus to health care to climate change...maybe he is just completely burned out from the 21 month campaign, or maybe he just wants to stay home with the wife and kids...

filistro said...

It is like a Beyonce wearing pants or a Paul Newman wearing sunglasses. It is a waste of an asset.

Michael, I'm responding to your post just because I love that analogy so much :-)

What bothers me most of all in this situation is the petty sniveling outrage from "the base." Sure, they worked their butts off for Obama and they're the ones who put him in power. Why? Because they believed in him. They trusted him. They honestly thought he was the best man for the job.

But the minute he does something they disagree with, they're prepared to abandon the man. They sulk and bitch and moan. The Burts of this world intend to "not vote." They'll take their ball and go home.

So what was all that passionate support about in the first place? Just shallow, insincere "rah rah" stuff, or what?

I think Obama and his team have proven, over and over, that they're brilliant strategists and they take a very long view. Burt and his buddies are playing "Go Fish" and squabbling with each other while the Obama team is playing multi-dimensional chess and thinking a dozen moves ahead.

The right wing knows it, too. At a visceral level they sense the huge danger to their party of getting this bill passed. That's why (even in its present form) they're opposing it with such furious intensity.

It's really dispiriting to see this shallow fickleness on the left... and after everything the world endured during the Bush years.

We just never seem to learn, do we? I wonder if we ever will.

Pan said...

There's a variety of reasons why people voted for Obama. Some were starry-eyed and starstruck. Some were overjoyed with his credentials and his policy positions. Some were wary on his lack of a long-term track record but were optimistic enough that he would do a good job. Some were simply voting for what they thought was the lesser of two evils. Some voted for him simply because he was black. Some voted for him because they simply wanted to vote against the GOP. Some where voting for him, believing he would deliver on his campaign promises, but had some ways in which they thought he was weak and wanted to see him do things a bit differently.

These were but a few of the different varieties of Obama voters. Looking at his comment history, Burt appeared to be the last one. From the start it was obvious that though he supported Obama, he thought he was far too "nice" to his opponents and needed to "go it alone" more. That's rather consistent with his posts now and his disenchantment with Obama. It's not even actually disenchantment so much as having given Obama the chance and feeling that he failed.

I don't agree with Burt, but it's his take on the matter. Just because not everyone is committed to a party and will stick with it through thick and thin doesn't mean they should be trolled like Jenny (and now you) have done.

The funny thing is we just had several threads in which Shots was castigated for attacking the site and posting ad hominens rather than actually posting anything substantive. This whole parroting of "Burt, your opinion doesn't count, because you're not a voter" sounds a lot more like Shots than it does like the kind of things you or Jenny generally post. You may not give a rats ass, but it's made me lose a bit of respect for you both.

filistro said...

Pan...

Shots, as you said, "attacked the site and posted ad hominens rather than actually posting anything substantive."

Burt, OTOH, announced he was going to "not vote" because he was angry with his party for not doing exactly what he wanted.

If you can't understand why (to somebody who is passionate about politics) the former is just mildly irritating while the latter is deeply infuriating, then I guess I can't say anything to you in my own defense.

I am outraged by the attitude Burt represents. The fact that you defend it doesn't make me "lose respect" for you... I still think you're a very bright person... it just makes me think we mustn't have all that much in common.

Pan said...

The real trick is not to vent your anger in an ad hominen fashion, which is what it's turned into with Burt. That really helps nothing and just gets away from arguing the actual issues.

Robert said...

@filistro & Pan

There are benefits (at least in the US, dunno about Canada) to getting a small, but significant, percentage of the vote. I don't recall what they all are (I only know this from talking with my father, who worked at the FEC nearly since it's inception), or the thresholds (mostly in the range of 2.5%-5% of the popular vote, nationally), but they're significant. One of them is automatically getting your presidential candidate on the ballot in every state. For third parties, that's nothing to scoff at.

Robert said...

I meant to say in my previous post, that the benefits are based on the percentage of the vote in the previous national election.

Pan said...

Yes, there are benefits. What's debatable is if they actually lead to you ever getting anyone elected. What's worse, they may wind up causing the third party to cannibalize support from the major party that is closest in ideology, thus helping the candidate get elected that actually more closest matches the minority support.

Robert said...

@Pan

A) As filistro said, incremental. The point is that there are benefits for the party, even if those benefits aren't specifically "getting your candidate to win the election".

B) If you're suggesting that Nader cost Gore the election (and it certainly would appear you are), then you need a history lesson. Gore cost Gore way more votes through actions Gore took than Nader did, therefore, Gore lost regardless of who did or did not vote for Nader.

esong_98 said...

I disagree with Nate that the Public Option was never winnable. There are several reasons why the public option failed.

History shows that most presidents get their highest priority enacted if presented to Congress within the first few months of their presidency. Big changes are hard to come by after the first 8 or so months after a new president is sworn in, unless something like 9-11 occurs or the president is on a roll with a string of major victories. There are several reasons why the public option failed.

During the election just before the financial crisis struck, Obama was asked what his 3 highest priorities were. Obama answered that energy was #1 and health care reform was #3. He did not list the economy as a top priority. However, certainly after the financial collapse, the economy became #1 and health care slipped to #4.

Furthermore, Obama admires Reagan's style. At press conferences, he stands in front of the hallway just like Reagan did. But he has the common misperception that Reagan merely articulated the general goals of his administration and let Congress work out the details. (Actually, the Reagan Administration presented to Congress a proposed detailed bill of his economic program within hours after being sworn in.) To Obama, Clinton's mistake in his health care reform effort was to present Congress too detailed of a plan that made it too easy to attack. In addition, he rejects Bush's act before thinking concept.

The end result was that the major push for health care reform didn't really get going until after Memorial Day. Had Reagan waited that long to push for his economic program, history may be very different. Obama also learned the wrong lesson from the Clinton experience. The problem with the Clinton approach was not that it was too detailed, but rather the plan had been worked out after the election in secrecy. Reagan didn't have any problems with his plan because he was very clear what his intentions were in the 1980 campaign.

Consequently, Congress had little guidelines on what the health care plan should be. With little guidelines to work with, Congress took more time than what Obama hoped. By the time a final bill emerged, the opposition was well organized and support for health care reform plummetted.

Another reason why the public option failed is because Democratic Party leaders tend to fail to understand how bargaining theory works. Reagan was a master bargainer. He would propose more than what he wanted. Sometimes, he would propose so much more than he wanted, that the public would laugh and the Democrats would be gasp on how radical and outrageous he was. But in the end the Democrats would compromise (more than Reagan because Democrats tend to be less skilled at bargaining) and Reagan would get what he wanted all along, if not more (See Stockman's book).

The bottom line is that Obama is an inexperienced and somewhat naive politician. He has the faith that kind gestures such as giving in to the opposition will yield a kind gesture in return (which may be true if he were dealing with other liberals, but he is dealing with Republicans and moderate Democrats). In reality, his kind gestures are taken to be a sign of weakness which just enboldens the oppostion to become even more adamant and firmer against the president.

There is no one reason why the public option failed. But you've probably heard the other reasons; reluctance among Democrats to discipline member of their caucus, individuals too concerned about their special interests rather than the good of the party etc...

Nevertheless, the public option was not only winnable, but should have been easy had Obama been more experienced and Democrats had behaved more like Republicans.

Eusebio Dunkle said...

Pan,

But in a compromise, part of the minority position is adopted. That's what a compromise is. If the majority is strong enough, then there need not be one. HCR is not like that, however. Minority positions (1 senator) are affecting compromise.

My gripe is that the fact that 20% + of the US supports single-payer is not reflected in HCR bill, even more probably if you look at the senate members who represent these people. I mean we can't even expand medicare or have a decent public option. It is not a fair compromise for my 20%. Thus, we should hold out for more or adopt a plan to aggressively continue the fight after HCR passes.

Mr. Universe said...

Oh, I can barely tolerate reading comment sections on all my blogs today. The conservative smugness that Lieberman has dealt them a victory is overwhelming.

I want Lieberman's head on a pike in front of the Senate.

Mr. Universe said...

It does seem that all you need to win in the Senate is 41 votes. The party of NO and the party of JOE.

Eusebio Dunkle said...

@Mr Universe

I want Lieberman's head on a pike in front of the Senate.

I'll donate a pitchfork. In fact, one already blood stained, but I'll spare my fellow liberals of this gruesome tale.

Pan said...

The reason Gore didn't win is that he didn't get enough electoral college votes. Everything else is speculation.

Robert said...

@Pan

IOW, you know I'm right but refuse to concede the point. Thanks. :)

michael said...

@ Filstro

I think Obama and his team have proven, over and over, that they're brilliant strategists and they take a very long view. Burt and his buddies are playing "Go Fish" and squabbling with each other while the Obama team is playing multi-dimensional chess and thinking a dozen moves ahead.

The right wing knows it, too. At a visceral level they sense the huge danger to their party of getting this bill passed. That's why (even in its present form) they're opposing it with such furious intensity.


Yeah, if the ultimate goal is a win, you are right. Sometimes it can be a fairly hollow victory. However, the right wing knows that a defeat on health care is damn near fatal to the rest of Obama's agenda...do not rule out reconciliation though. Lieberman is truly awful and I suspect he will be removed from the caucus if the dems can pick up 60 non-Lieberman senate votes after 2010...not impossible if health care passes.

I think Nate and Ezra K are right, Lieberman is principally motivated by avenging himself on those impertinent liberals who backed Lamont in 2006. He knows better than anyone he has zero chance of getting reelection in 2012 as it now stands unless the GOP stands down again and he becomes their defacto candidate.

Like my son said to me, I will give money to alvin the chipmunk if he runs against Lieberman in 2012...

Mike in Maryland said...

A question to all the 'purist progressives':

If the HCR is a 'pos', is not worth the paper it's written on, is worse than what we have now, and all the other things you're saying about it, then why are the GOOPers, insurance companies, Conservatards, etc., still fighting the bill tooth and nail?

If it will take us backwards, not forwards, why are the GOOPers, insurance companies, Conservatards, etc., still fighting the bill tooth and nail?

If we are in the grasp of the insurance companies, and this bill will make the situation worse, why are the GOOPers, insurance companies, Conservatards, etc., still fighting the bill tooth and nail?

Think about that above, THEN tell us why this bill is worse than the current situation. Don't bitch and moan about what you WANTED in the bill, but tell us exactly, in a point-by-point, detailed manner, how this bill is worse than the current situation.

Is this bill even close to what I wanted? No. But will it make it better than the current situation? In my opinion, yes. And if it passes, it can be made better.

An example: SCHIP was passed in 1997. Was it all that everyone wanted? No. It was amended in early 2009 (12 years after initial passage) to make it better.

An example: The Civil Rights Act of 1964 established the concept of equal pay between men and women. It took the actions of Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. against Lilly Ledbetter and the stupidity of the Supreme Court to show a weakness in the wording of the CRA of 1964, so in early 2009 (45 years after initial passage), the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, an act to amend certain provisions of the CRA of 1964, was passed by Congress and signed into law.

An example: The 14th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified July 9, 1868; the 15th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified February 3, 1870. Yet it took another 96 and 94 years until the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (and many long court battles after that) until African-Americans could go into any store they wanted to go into AND go in through the same portals that whites used; could vote without unequal barriers put in place to deter them; could drink from the same water fountains whites used; etc., etc.

Just because something passes that doesn't please you now, don't throw it in the trash can of history as useless. Work on making it better, stronger, more comprehensive. It takes time and effort, but progress CAN be made if people work on it.

Just as when I was growing up, a town had an ordinance on the books that blacks had to be outside the city limits between sundown and sunup. It was not until a court challenge AFTER passage of the CRA of 1964 was the ordinance taken off the books, and that was not because the town took it off the books, but it was ordered off the books by a court. And this was not a town in the South, but in Northern Indiana.

Mike in Maryland

Pan said...

Not at all. The problem is everything else is conjecture and personal judgments, sometimes backed up by evidence but never an proven explanation.

For example, if all the ballots had been counted rather than the Supreme Court cutting it off, Gore could well have won. Did the Supreme Court cost Gore the election, then?

Another example - if we chose our president based on the national popular vote instead of our electoral college system, Gore would have won. Did the electoral college system cost Gore the election, then?

See, that's why I don't like the phrase it that way. It's not the "fault" of either of those things that Gore lost. However, those two things were factors that, if they had not been such, Gore would likely have won.

An extremely strong case can be made via exit polls that Nader's presence on the ballot changed the outcome to Bush over Gore in Florida and/or New Hampshire. But you can easily claim that the exit polls might not have been accurate. Or that your belief is that enough of the Gore voters would have simply stayed home (though you'd also have to stretch that by claiming that the same portion of Bush ones would, too). But who can actually know? No one. It's conjecture and speculation. I'm not sure what history lesson you propose to teach me, but unless it involves a crystal ball it's just a hypothetical and not a proof of what would have happened.

But I can tell you this. I voted for Nader in 2000. At the time, I lived in an overwhelmingly red state so I knew it wouldn't matter. However, my choices went: 1)Nader, 2)Gore, 3)Anyone but Bush. Had I been in a competitive state and not been the realist that I am, I could very well have voted for Nader there as well.

Now do I blame Nader and feel somehow wronged by him? Not at all. He did what he felt was his duty as an upstanding citizen. That explanation gets you a lot of leeway as long as it doesn't involve doing something illegal or downright dastardly.

I no more blame him than I blame out electoral college system. That's simply how it is. I don't like the system and I'd vote to change it in a heartbeat. But that's simply the way it is and I know that to avoid getting the guy I absolutely don't want elected, I have to keep it in mind. The same is true about voting for third parties. It's not something I would encourage simply because of how our system is designed and what it has evolved into.

What I am all in favor of is ballot reform. I'm a big booster for IRV/RCV. That's where the energy needs to go, and it's a shame that so much more energy goes into third party candidates that if you're honest with yourself you know have no chance of anything other than tilting at windmills. I wish that energy could be more directed at ballot reform. But it is happening. San Francisco and Minneapolis have already used it in mayoral elections. Several other cities have already adopted it for their 2009/10/11 elections.

Now that is what I'm excited about. With that in place, I'll be one of the biggest third-party boosters you'll find. You won't have to sabotage your vote - you'll actually have a choice rather than a gamble. And even should your more "pure" candidate lose, it will be on record that s/he had X% of the vote in the first round, and that will affect policy a lot more than some tiny fraction of X% or some exit polls or the grumblings of internet posters.

Now don't you wish you'd never asked, Robert? That's why I tried to leave it short and sweet with my comment about everything else being speculation. But now you have my full opinion, and it has nothing to do with conceding a damn thing to you.

;)

nickdag said...

Oh, come on, that's not good-faith negotiation! Your car analogy should be revised to:

You: Why are you charging 2k?
Dealer: High cost to build.
You: Really?
Dealer: And delivery.
You: Really?
Dealer: Well, I'd have to sell to everyone cheaper if I lowered for you.
You: Really?
Dealer: Actually, it would be bad for market-principles to sell for lower.

*simultaneously*

90% Other Dealers: You really should lower the price.
Dealer: It's my principle I never change.
Dealer: *changes principle*
90% Other Dealers: It'd be better for everyone if you changed
Dealer: No. You 90% are wrong, and I've delivered a clear argument from the start, and I have zero conflicts of interest.

Robert said...

Now don't you wish you'd never asked, Robert?

No, I'm glad you're not one of the morons who parrots something along the lines of "if it weren't for Nader, Gore would have won". Whenever I deal with lawyers (not to insult you by implying you are one :)), when they know they're wrong, they either don't respond, or respond with a point that may be true, but doesn't actually respond, which is how I took your response.

I see what you mean by your speculation point now, but initially I took it as "you can't prove it wasn't Nader". I think Gore did far more to damage his own campaign than Nader did, and I think it's unfortunate that that viewpoint caused a lot of people to abandon third parties in 2004.

I agree with your extreeeemely long response though.

slasher14 said...

Jenny: "If this is such a bad bill, then why are they wingers, the republicans, and the insurance companies completely against it."

Because they have nothing else to present to the electorate except blind opposition to Obama. They don't HAVE any policy positions, other than tax cuts. If Obama wanted to pass the health care bill, all he ever had to do was to say he'd preserve the Bush tax cuts and enough Repugs would have peeled off to pass it.

Of course, that would have knocked a $4 trillion hole in the budget, but that didn't bother the Repugs under Bush and wouldn't bother them now -- sanctimonious lying bastards that they are.

Burt et al: You know, we really don't know how the politics of a non-PO/non-Medicare-buy-in will work. My guess is that the base will turn out in 2010 depending upon where the unemployment numbers are and will turn out in 2012, barring an utter disaster, under any circumstances because the prospect of Palin replacing Obama is simply too horrible for most Americans to countenance.

What I don't understand about your argument is that you seem to think Obama et al could EVER have done anything about 40 solid Repugs determined to block him plus Joe Lieberman (not to mention Nelson). You seem to think all he had to do was put up a stronger bill and done...what? Threatened to kidnap their kids?

Given how Lieberman has shucked and jived this week, it's obvious that he was opposed to the project from the git-go and simply held his fire until it could be most effective -- that is, after Obama HAD managed to get Lincoln and Landrieu and Bayh on board.

There AREN'T only 40 Republicans in the Senate. On this issue, no matter what Obama did, there are and always were 41. Lieberman knows full well that there's no way the Democrats will nominate him for another term in 2012, and that to win he's going to need lots and lots of Republican votes. What he's doing is playing to THEM, not to "progressives" or even corporatist Democrats. He is effectively a Republican now.

As for the crafting of the bill and what effect it will have, I don't think you (or I) have a clue until it gets out there. We will be hearing from the Repugs that it doesn't work, of course, because most of THEM don't need it and don't know anyone who does. The fact is that the people who do need it are mostly lower middle class and don't register much on the national opinion boards. But it's hard for me to see that they'll be up in arms about getting health insurance for the first time in their lives for many of them, even if it's not as good a program as it "might have been" if the Repugs didn't have 41 votes to block it.

Perfect Tommy said...

if Joe Lieberman weren't such a prick, for instance

"If."

shiloh said...

1) Gore was a god awful candidate!

2) Gore lost his own state, TN. The dirty little not so secret is if Gore had run for the senate again he would have lost badly.

3) Oh the irony of Gore picking Sen. Bob Graham of FL as v-p instead of weasel Lieberman he probably would have won Florida easily.

woulda, coulda, shoulda

Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life on this planet!

did I mention Gore was a god awful candidate and only has himself to blame for grasping defeat from the jaws of victory ...

George In Florida said...

esong_98:

You are willing to praise Reagan for proposing more than he wanted so he could get what he actually wanted. You base this on a book written after Reagan left office.

However, you discount the fact that Obama could have done the same thing. If you look at Obama's campain speeches, he barely even mentioned the public option. Even in the September speech, he said it was a good idea, but included it much later in the speach than what he said that HCR had to have.

As I have previously posted, could this have been Obama's plan all along, to propose the PO, to let it fail, so that he could have HCR?

George In Florida said...

Mike in Maryland:

I used to live in Indiana.

Indiana is in the south, just geographically miss-located.

zneroladivad said...

Can't we just push the medicare thing through with a reconciliation now? I don't understand how you can oppose opening up Medicare to those 55 and up and win an election. Screw Joe Lieberman and the rest of them by making them oppose what would be a wildly popular program. It would sure up medicare by adding a paying, healthier population and it would enable people to retire soon, opening up more jobs streamlining American corporations. Lieberman et al can't vote for it because it is "perceived" as being liberal, not because it is.

pz said...

Am I the only one who can remember Lyndon Johnson and the fights over Medicare and Civil Rights? Lyndon didn't just ask Senators to the White House. He didn't just say "I need your vote."

He threatened. If there was something a Senator wanted, Lyndon could smile and say something like "that little ole nomination's a purty hard thang to do. The Republicans will call him a scalawag and beat me about it. But Senator, if you're with me this time, and with me early, why Ah'll just have put your colleague on the Water Board." Or, "Why Senator, that would be an eahmahk for your people in Hartford. Why should Ah do that if you're not with me when Ah need it?"

BHO doesn't quite seem willing to break arms to get votes. He should be.

filistro said...

BHO doesn't quite seem willing to break arms to get votes. He should be.

How ironic that we who loved Barack Obama's message of "hope and change" are now so nostalgic for "politics as usual."

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