Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: My Last Words on the Public Option

12.10.2009

My Last Words on the Public Option

We've been a little light on health care coverage this week. But to be honest, it's probably not a bad thing that I've been out of the country. Any time I write about the public option -- which appears have been sacrificed in pursuit of a health care deal -- I generally wind up pissing people off.

But here, for the record, is what I think -- and I think I've been pretty consistent in this thinking:

1) The energy by progressive activists on behalf of the public option has done more good than harm, and by a wide margin.

2a) Nevertheless, the public option is/was a relatively minor part of the health care bill, at least once it became clear that it (i) wouldn't be pegged to Medicare rates, and (ii) would only be available to a small fraction of the population.

2b) To claim that a health care bill without a public option is anything other than a huge achievement for progressives is, frankly, bullshit.

3) Because of the symbolic importance attached to the public option on both sides of the debate, I'd tend to assume that it could be traded off for other policy goals at a relatively favorable exchange rate. That is, whoever "wins" the public option debate is likely to have traded some utilitarian benefits for some psychic income and/or longer-term tactical gains.

4) More specifically, in terms of the present compromise on the table, it seems to be quite clearly better than a bill without the Medicaid/Medicare expansion, the Franken Amendment, etc., but with a weak public option.

5) However, it's not clear exactly what is really being traded for what. Perhaps the public option was never going to pass in the first place, and so all these new things are basically freebies for Democrats. On the other hand, perhaps if they had dug in their heels, the Democrats could have gotten both the public option and these other things. Also, the compromise itself will probably wind up being compromised, which makes it even harder to keep score.

6) The case that the White House failed to achieve a public option because it was inept is much stronger than the case that it failed to achieve one because it wasn't progressive enough.

7) Liberals have tended to underestimate what a significant political achievement it would be for Democrats to pass such a major bill that has become rather unpopular with the public. It would be going too far to characterize the Democrats as courageous for passing health care reform (if they do), because at the end of the day, the political case for passing health care reform is probably stronger than the case for failing to do so. Moreover, the handling of public option debate is not completely exogenous from the bill's popularity or lack thereof. Nevertheless, Democrats have been negotiating into a stiff political headwind for months now, and have been rather resilient in the face of it.
__
p.s. The headline should probably not be taken literally.

238 comments

Brian said...

Nate said bullshit.

diogenes99 said...

It is hard to measure whether there is a enough in the bill to prevent health insurance companies to drift back to their old practices of insuring who they want and denying claims they want. I don't think there is, and because of that, the bill is a failure. On the other hand, it is a political victory for politicians -- something they can point to. But this is not the same as a victory for the people. The day I am no longer insured by Cigna will be a good day.

mikelow1885 said...

Some thoughts:

1. An incremental reform bill would have passed by now. This would entail banning recission, no discrimination or denial of coverage for preexisting conditions, allowing prescription drug imports, expanding the tax deduction to include individuals who buy insurance, and repealing the antitrust exemption. These smaller reforms would benefit the middle class and would go into effect faster.

2. Health care reform has taken too much time and energy at the expense of jobs and the economy. Voters are seeing handouts, not job creation.

3. I agree the Obama administration's messaging on health care and the economy has been awful. They have let the GOP win the message and the media. A new communication team is needed as I think Obama is a one-term president otherwise.

Juris said...

No, Bri, Nate called bullshit.

If major reform goes through, it's quite an accomplishment and owes nothing to the right or the GOP.

Casey said...

Is there going to be a December Senate Ranking?

Jenny said...

Nate = DLC lapdog [/snark]

Seriously, I can see Sirotiaites denouncing Nate the same way the teabaggers say bush/cheney/rumsfeld were't conservative.

In any event the blogosphere is not reflective of the base. For if it were, Edwards would have won nomination in a landslide.

filistro said...

Again I would like to point out that these things take time and health care reform in America will be an ongoing process for decades to come.

The fact that this bill is actually going to pass is a massive, historic achievement. It's freakin' WONDERFUL. Now there will be a law in place that can be altered, amended and improved over time. And of course it will.

Progressives who are whining and bashing Obama because they didn't get everything they wanted, and get it right away... they are childish beyond belief.

It reminds me of that annoying old commercial where the woman gets a new wristwatch from her husband for Christmas and sadly tells him "I was hoping for a Longines."

Man, how I despised that woman!

werddrew said...

In the end, getting ANY healthcare reform bill passed, public option or not, is preferable to not getting one passed at all.

You could look at the Public Option as a bargaining chip as well. Maybe they knew from the start it wouldn't pass, but by insisting on it every step of the way, they managed to move the bill farther to the left than if they had excluded it from the start.

Either way, for the sake of the electoral chances of Democrats, SOMETHING needed to pass, and it should. In the weeks that follow, the PR battle will be waged between the "We win because we killed the public option" Republicans and the "We win because we got healthcare passed" Democrats. I think the latter message will resonate more easily.

Jenny said...

I should also add that the patron saint of bloggers Paul Krugman supports the bill, will they attack him as well?

filistro said...

Hey Jenny... Josh Marshall pointed out this morning that the Dems' last two VP nominees haven't worked out so well.

Lieberman in 2000, Edwards in 2004.

Either of them could have been a heartbeat from the presidency. (When I think about it, I may have to stop kvetching about Sarah Palin :-)

Walker said...

Nate, the Senate grand “agreement” that’s emerging is a cosmic joke of proposed legislation. We are literally at a “throw anything up at the wall and see what sticks” phase now. How can you expand Medicare to up to 50M plus Americans on one hand while at the same time cutting hundreds of billions of funds from the program?

Talk about rationing! This is a joke. Reid needs to go NOW.

Pete M said...

I completely agree with Werddrew.

Let's put it this way -- if this fails we may wait another 16 years as we did after Clintoncare.

If we win, and if the Democrats keep control (or regain it in 2012) of the house/senate, the flaws can be addressed in a less politicized environment (no death panels claims, etc.). By control I mean an effective majority.

I really don't understand progressives/liberals who say a flawed bill is worse than none at all. Getting the uninsured (or a significant portion) insured and the idea of universal coverage widely accepted is worth a great deal.

shiloh said...

Again, just the obvious: Nate, Dems, liberals criticize their party ie argue amongst themselves all the time ...

whereas Reps/conservatives not so much, which is why winger blogs like redstate, freepertopia, malkin etc. where they are 100% anti OBama/Dem and hatred rules the day like Fox News and never say anything negative about the Rep party must be more fun than a barrel of monkeys to intellectuals! ;)

This is why it's sooo much fun being a progressive at a liberal blog if you are really interested in politics as keeping one's blood circulating is never a problem. :)

Jenny said...

The oddest part of the debate is how Edwards and Clinton partisans just bashed the fuck outta obama during the primaries for NOT supporting mandated insurance, and now they're bashing the fuck outta obama for supporting the congressional bill that includes mandates.

what i can't figure out is why they turned on mandates.

filistro said...

shiloh...

I picture folks like BartDP attending their Tea Parties and being issued their Thought List:

"Remember men, we ALL believe in lower taxes, oppose abortion, fear minorities, hate health care, think Obama is evil and Muslims are bad, deny global warming, love war and adore Dick Cheney. Now, men... stick to the Thought List, and go out there and fight the good fight!"

Good luck doing something like that with progressives, who prefer to think for themselves (damn their fractious little hides! ;-)

Jenny said...

filistro,

And the thing is the blogosphere absolutely loves al gore and loathes lieberman.

you would think they would be consistent and temper their gore love considering his role in elevating one of the most hated figures in the blogosphere.

filistro said...

Jenny... I wish there were some way for guys like Nate to measure how accurately the blogosphere reflects the feelings of the party in general.

I picture the blogosphere being like the residue at the bottom of the beaker when you put out a well-mixed solution of anything and let it settle for a while.

The concentrated, potent crud that accumulates on the bottom... that's the blogosphere.

It's probably a mistake to think it reflects widespread public opinion.

P is for Progress said...

I don't think looking at the loss of a public option as a major defeat is "bullshit." In the Senate bill it certainly was a minor portion of the legislation, as you point out. However, I put on no pretense and freely admit exactly what Republicans have been claiming: I look to the public option and hope that it would, maybe, be the "nose under the tent" leading to a more expansive (even single-payer?) government system of health insurance in the future. To that end, it's a sad day for me.

shiloh said...

filistro said...
~~~~~~~~~~


And American liberals have been actively protesting for (234) years whereas conservatives never protest which is why watching these klan rallies er teabagger gatherings is too funny!

Talk about your rebels w/out a cause as truthers, birthers, deathers, 10thers, secessionists are still upset a Communist, Marxist, Socialist, Islamo-Fascist, wealth distributor, Satan, The Devil Incarnate, The Anti-Christ, Muslim born in Kenya, who palls around w/terrorists and wakes up every morning hating America is currently living in the White House w/his African/American family. :)

Oh the humanity!

Mr. Universe said...

It does appear that Democrats will play surrender monkeys on the Public Option. Although filistro is correct that the Dems managed to get this far is a pretty big deal, it is sad to see that they can still legislate themselves into a box. The party of no at least has that going for them.
My party, right or wrong (usually wrong), my party.

Apologies to Patrick Henry


@shots

You're new here. If you want to continue in the global warming debate from the last thread you have to open the comments in a new window to get past the 200 comment limit.

Walker said...

http://thepage.time.com/2009/12/10/poll-majority-oppose-senate-health-bill/?xid=rss-page

No a clear majority are against the Senate "plan", whatever the hell that is day to day.

Doing nothing will actually help public opinion of the Democrats at this point.

Jon said...

I'm flailing about in the dark here since none of us really know what's in this bill, but --

A public option by any other name? An expansion of medicare eligibility plus an expansion of medicaid eligibility -- both goverment run, single-payer plans. Isn't that a public option by another name, and won't they, between them, cover more people than the watered-down version of a public option would have?

I don't know how this OPM managed co-op will work. Will any insurance company actually participate. Probably depends on how hairtrigger the trigger for a PO really is.

One thing I like, if it stays in, is requiring the insurance companies to pay out 90 percent of premiums collected in benefits.

I'm a single payer kind of guy, but this might be worth doing.

filistro said...

Which raises an interesting question...

If the health care bill as currently proposed is really as awful as progressive Dems keep saying... why are Walker and all the Freepers so furiously, frothingly opposed to it?

Think about it.

Jenny said...

Doing nothing will actually help public opinion of the Democrats at this point.

But Walker, unlike republicans, the dems are NOT poll driven.

Joshua said...

Epic fail. What is going to prevent premiums from climbing through the roof? My parents are stuck with one of Cantwell's junk-insurance plans (which in Palm Beach County is called Vita Health), all because they couldn't afford to pay TWENTY-FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR in premiums! I'm damn lucky I'm at a grad school that gives me a fantastic PPO plan, but I wonder what is going to happen after I eventually graduate. I imagine my insurance is probably at least $1000/month via COBRA! Maybe I should never graduate! Obama places excessive pressure on Israel, but squarely where he should be putting the pressure (health care), he does NOTHING?! Why did I vote for this guy again? Maybe I should sit out 2010 on the federal level (I got votes to make on the state level, so I'll stick with that). Don't be surprised if many other Jewish Dems decide the same thing.

Jenny said...

filistro,

The same argument can be made from the left flank -- if the bill is as awful as blogger say, then why are Saint Paul Krugman and avowed/proud socialist Bernie Sanders supporting it.

harold said...

Filistro -

I completely agree with your comments.

Of course, if I allow myself to think about how Medicare is already covering the most elderly and the disabled with administrative costs that are far lower than those of private insurers and compare very favorably to health plans all over the world, how low the incremental cost of adding younger, healthier people to Medicare on a voluntary basis would be, how massively popular such a move would be, and how that obvious option is blocked only by the sacredness of health insurance companies, I can get a little annoyed. After all, we could actually have given the health insurance companies a huge one time "bailout" and asked them to move aside, and we'd still have better, cheaper coverage in the long run.

Having said that, I think it is true that any movement is better than no movement.

However, I notice that you made one mistake. You said -

"Remember men, we ALL believe in lower taxes, oppose abortion, fear minorities, hate health care, think Obama is evil and Muslims are bad, deny global warming, love war and adore Dick Cheney. Now, men... stick to the Thought List, and go out there and fight the good fight!"

How could you possibly have forgotten to include "deny biological evolution" on the list?

Jenny said...

joshua, what excessive pressure on Israel? You are aware Rahm served in the IDF and his father was a member of Irgun.

Jenny said...

Jon, you're making tooo much sense. You're obviously don't blog on FDL.

really, the bloggers feel in love with the brand name "public option". In a way it's no different than the right wing fears "government health care" but they LOVE medicare.

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

Liberals have tended to underestimate what a significant political achievement it would be for Democrats to pass such a major bill that has become rather unpopular with the public. It would be going too far to characterize the Democrats as courageous for passing health care reform (if they do), because at the end of the day, the political case for passing health care reform is probably stronger than the case for failing to do so.

Nice attempt to finesse the situation, but at least you addressed it. The fact is that the Obamacare legislation before Congress is unpopular with adults, very unpopular with voters in general and loathed by solid majorities in the Red districts and states where the next two election cycles will be fought.

Depending upon which side of this issue you are on, the Dems in Red districts and states are either being suicidally brave in voting for an important piece of legislation or are giving their constituents the finger.

Moreover, the handling of public option debate is not completely exogenous from the bill's popularity or lack thereof.

Positions have hardened past the point where shuffling the chairs on the Titanic is going to affect the opinion of the voters on this legislation. Every version of this bill will cost a fortune, involve massive government power over our health insurance and will outlaw our present insurance. The voters have caught on and do not give a damn about what version of government health insurance emerges. They oppose any government takeover of health insurance.

I can't hear you... said...

Great post Nate! I actually have been very hard on Reid during this process, but I think the bill coming out is actually pretty good. It can always be tweaked later, but I think we all Harry a bit of an apology, but only a bit...

I can't hear you... said...

Bart-

PLEASE put up lots of Tea Party candidates against the repubs! Pretty please? Mike Castle is really a democrat, don't you want to challenge him in the primary?

AlfonsoG said...

"To claim that a health care bill without a public option is anything other than a huge achievement for progressives is, frankly, bullshit."

This statement is actually the one I see around here that reeks of B.S.

Look, I'm not saying the bill is bad. I'm just not sure at this point. Mandatory insurance is something I'm very skeptical of unless the bill truly reforms the system. How much is does that I'm not sure at this point, since all the details haven't come out yet.

But to say that the bill is automatically a huge victory for progressives without being very clear on the details - I just don't get it.

harold said...

Joshua -

Obama places excessive pressure on Israel,

Weird. On the planet I live on, Earth, there's also a country called "Israel" and a president named "Obama", but here, Israel is treated very nicely indeed by the US government. I don't think that "support" for Israel from Bush/Cheney or the current right is very sincere, nor very helpful to the long term health of Israel, sincere or not.

but squarely where he should be putting the pressure (health care), he does NOTHING?!

My comments should make it obvious that I wanted much more, but technically, this thread is about Obama and the Democrats doing something.

I really dislike health insurance companies and strongly sympathize with your common situation, which could not happen to the citizens of any other rich country.

Why did I vote for this guy again?

I voted for him because McCain/Palin was the only other choice, and because he seems basically sane, decent, and competent. I expected him to be much more "centrist" than my ideal, but the other choice was/is "wingnut".

Maybe I should sit out 2010 on the federal level (I got votes to make on the state level, so I'll stick with that). Don't be surprised if many other Jewish Dems decide the same thing.

Technically, Jewish voters are a comparatively small demographic, and also distributed mainly in extremely safe for Democrats (that's true of both Jewish Democrats and Jewish Republicans).

Having said that, it seems like a bad idea to passively support a clearly worse alternative, even if the better alternative is imperfect.

Bart DePalma said...

filistro said...

I picture folks like BartDP attending their Tea Parties and being issued their Thought List:

"Remember men, we ALL believe in lower taxes, oppose abortion, fear minorities, hate health care, think Obama is evil and Muslims are bad, deny global warming, love war and adore Dick Cheney. Now, men... stick to the Thought List, and go out there and fight the good fight!"

Good luck doing something like that with progressives, who prefer to think for themselves (damn their fractious little hides! ;-)


:::chuckle:::

You really do not understand libertarians and small government conservatives very well. The entire movement is a rebellion against those who would tell us what to do.

The only folks attending the town hall meetings with scripts and preprinted signs were the SEIU and ACORN folks following the instructions of Obama's Organizing for America. The Tea Party folks were carrying "Don't Tread On Me" flags. Indeed, the conservative vendor the SEIU thugs beat up in Missouri because "He was against America" was ironically enough selling these flags.

The only reason the Dems in DC are so badly split over Obamacare is that the voters who elected the Blue Dogs are howling in opposition. If they did not have to run for re-election next year, the Dems would have passed this back in May.

Opus 132 said...

I firmly believe that the opening of Medicare to those 55 to 65 years of age is far more important than a mediocre public option (a really robust one was,unfortunately,never in the cards).It will,hopefully, eventually lead to the promised land Of Medicare For All.

After the "buy-in" mechanism is set up,expansion to lower age groups will be relatively simple.And there will be plenty of pressure from those age groups as they clamor to be admitted.Even the Tea Baggers will insist on being included.Imagine that!

(I am already on Medicare.It's you I want covered.)

filistro said...

The entire movement is a rebellion against those who would tell us what to do.

Ah, Bart. That's what I love about you.... you're always good for a chuckle.

So... which items on my Thought List does a rugged, courageous and independent-minded Tea Partier like you disagree with?

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

If they did not have to run for re-election next year, the Dems would have passed this back in May.
~~~~~~~~~~


Yea, this is why health care reform started back in the Truman admin and still hasn't been passed, because it's sooo damn easy.

BDP, lately one has been giving the impression that you're not even trying anymore ;) ie phoning it in ...

OK, that's a lie as you have been phoning it in since day one.

take care

Juris said...

@ filistro, who wrote:
Hey Jenny... Josh Marshall pointed out this morning that the Dems' last two VP nominees haven't worked out so well.

Lieberman in 2000, Edwards in 2004.

Either of them could have been a heartbeat from the presidency. (When I think about it, I may have to stop kvetching about Sarah Palin :-)


That's a good observation. At least the first two you mention pretty much proved themselves to be political ho's.

Boing said...

A nationalised single payer being so contested as to prove unattainable, I could understand. But a public option? Even one watered down to virtually nothing?

Your country's gone mad.

Opus 132 said...

@ Jenny

what i can't figure out is why they turned on mandates.

Because a mandate without a strong public option means delivering millions of new customers to the insurance companies for immediate economic raping.
The victims will have had nowhere else to go.

shiloh said...

hmm, Lieberman, Edwards and palin.

a certain symmetry as all (3) appear to have lost touch w/the universe around them ...

All through the day, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine!

harold said...

Bart de Palma -

You really do not understand libertarians and small government conservatives very well. The entire movement is a rebellion against those who would tell us what to do.

For God's sake, man, warn people before you make a joke that hilarious!

Is there anything on the list Filistro made that you don't agree with?

Persuter said...

However, it's not clear exactly what is really being traded for what. Perhaps the public option was never going to pass in the first place, and so all these new things are basically freebies for Democrats.

Ding ding ding! Johnny, tell him what he's won!

Obama made clear that they weren't going to work hard for the public option. Nate, you wrote a column declaring it "all but dead".


The case that the White House failed to achieve a public option because it was inept is much stronger than the case that it failed to achieve one because it wasn't progressive enough.

This I agree with, although to some extent, it seems more of a difference in philosophy with Bush than actual incompetence. Bush was very willing to use the bully pulpit to push for legislation - the executive and legislative branch have almost never marched in lock-step to the extent that they did during Bush's term while the Republicans held the Congress (even on non-war stuff).

Obama, on the other hand, likely precisely because he comes from Congress, seems to go way out of his way to keep his hands off the Congress, except in a few notable exceptions. I think it's funny how the Republicans continually use the "Obamacare" epithet when Obama has done just about as little as possible to get this thing passed.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Juris said...

A question about GOP Congressional strategy if/when a health reform bill were to get through both houses and comes back for "final passage" (after the conference committee).

Do they (a) Filibuster but ultimately sign on -- vote for passage, while claiming victory by avoiding massive socialist makeover of the U.S. by keeping the "public option" out while nonetheless defending Medicare as the "people's favorite medical plan"? If they do this, they appeal to their base and try to get the center/moderates to acknowledge their key role in avoiding a leftist coup.

OR

(b) Filibuster like hell and vote no, and campaign in 2010 and 2012 against the massive socialist takeover?

Seems to me that if they take the first option, they can try to claim some credit for the new policy; but if they take the second they would be seen for the next generation as opposing universal healthcare. And they will, IMO, get hammered electorally from the left and the center of the political spectrum.

Mr. Universe said...

Recent Quinnipiac poll out

Percent of people who approve of Congress' handling of health care reform...38%

Percent of people who like the idea of a public option...56%

Tell me again why this is being negotiated out of the health care reform bill?

shrinkers said...

@Persuter
I think it's funny how the Republicans continually use the "Obamacare" epithet when Obama has done just about as little as possible to get this thing passed.

Yeah. The really funny part is that they think it makes health care reform seem less attractive when they link it to Obama.

How out of touch with reality is that?

Or is it that they are hoping it will make Obama less popular, if they link him to meaningful helath care reform?

Either way -- them guys is nuts.

filistro said...

Harold said: Is there anything on the list Filistro made that you don't agree with?


It's only fair to warn you, Bart, that once you answer Harold's question I will have you firmly in checkmate.

I'm waiting :-) LOL...

(But you'll have to wait a while to be abjectly publicly humiliated, because I live in Canada and I'm going curling this afternoon.)

protothad said...

Nate continues to make the mistake that the public insurance option is only about cost. Its not... its about DENIED CLAIMS. Having seen first hand the difference between a government run public insurance option (Medicare) and private insurance, this is about quality of care, not cost, for my family. I am sick of paying premiums only to have my claims denied in the cause of insurance company profits.

Jacob said...

Blogger Bart DePalma said...

"Every version of this bill will cost a fortune, involve massive government power over our health insurance and will outlaw our present insurance."


Every version? Seems you haven't looked at the versions actually being debated in Congress, as these are revenue-neutral or deficit-reducing, expand HC choice, and don't outlaw insurance.

Nice try though. Please Bart, try to understand what you are talking about before your next post.

Jacob said...

@Joshua

So a comparatively (somewhat) sane approach to Israel will cost Obama voters? Just because he doesn't proclaim the virtues of the Netanyahu/Lieberman/Begin cabal that opposes peace every chance it gets?

I hate to break it to you, but most American Jewish Democrats aren't that stupid. In fact, most of us support working for peace in Israel/Palestine.

And as for the Jewish Republican caucus? Well, he's busy with other things at the moment:

http://airamerica.com/really/12-09-2009/crappy-gop-job-ideas/

Mr. Universe said...

I live in Canada and I'm going curling this afternoon

I'll be damned. People actually do that for fun? And all this time I thought it was some obscure Swedish form of bowling/croquet. a weird excuse for cold countries to win Olympic medals.

Who knew?

Burt said...

To claim that a health care bill without a public option is anything other than a huge achievement for progressives is, frankly, bullshit.

Bullshit yourself, Nate. Calling this piece of shit bill a progressive achievement is utterly laughable.

I remember that, when the whole process of health care reform started, the major goals were:

1. Break the link between health care and employment
2. Control costs
3. Make quality health care more affordable and more accessible to the middle class (those who don't qualify for Medicaid)
4. Get something close to universal health care for all Americans

1 and 2 are completely gone. 3 isn't really happening unless you are over 55. And 4 has taken the form of a mandate. Mandating that people buy private insurance is not even close to the same thing as providing universal health care.

So while you might like the taste of this shit sandwich which is nothing more than a huge sop to the private insurance companies (who get to drop their expensive 55-64 year old customers into Medicare while younger and healthier people are forced to buy their product with no cost controls), I'm not a sucker who's prepared to accept anything that comes out of Congress and call it reform.

I'm not speaking as a progressive when I say I hope it fails. I'm speaking as someone who wouldn't benefit at all from the changes in the bill.

And whether it's the fact that he's doing the bidding of his corporate owners, or just that he's inept, either way, Obama's failure to fight for a strong public option is one of the big things that's turned me against him.

PaulK said...

Nate, the reason that many disagree with you on the value of a health care package without the public option is very simple: it hands the keys to the insurance companies. Conservatives may dislike Government run programs (e.g. insurance like medicare), but they should hate Government giving money to insurance companies even more. Under Health-care without a Public option, everyone has to buy insurance; since many cannot afford it, the government will subsidize their insurance (means the Gov will pay the extra). The insurance companies will continue to raise premiums and so more will not be able to afford it, so the Gov will be on the hook for yet more expenditures. This means that yet again, the so-called conservatives will be handing out welfare to big corporations, in this case massive insurance companies. The insurance industry has no competition, has no incentive to reform, and since the barrier to entry is so high, they have nothing to fear either. Only the Public option scares them because they would actually have to reform themselves.

Juris said...

@Bart: you wrote "I'm not speaking as a progressive when I say I hope it fails. I'm speaking as someone who wouldn't benefit at all from the changes in the bill.

You don't have to explain that you're an utterly selfish troglodyte, Bart. We knew that already.

Jenny said...

Mr. Universe said...

Recent Quinnipiac poll out

Percent of people who approve of Congress' handling of health care reform...38%

Percent of people who like the idea of a public option...56%

Tell me again why this is being negotiated out of the health care reform bill?
====================================

Haven't you been paying attention?

There are a number of Dems who have taken millions of dollars in contributions from health insurance companies. Given the choice, they would rather vote against the public and instead of their ATMs. I mean, you would want to piss off the banker holding your mortgage - no.

I mean, we've heard for decades who corrupt congress is and corrosive influence of money, yet people act still act surprised that we have "dirty cops" on the beat.

Jenny said...

Blogger Burt said...

Bullshit yourself, Nate. Calling this piece of shit bill a progressive achievement is utterly laughable.
==================================

burt, why is avowed/proud socialist bernie sanders supporting the bill?

Why is the patron saint of liberalism Paul Krugman supporting the bill?

Can answer that, can you.

Burt said...

Jenny - We've been over this. Bernie Sanders has not yet said whether he's voting for the final bill. Please learn to read.

Burt said...

And by the way, instead of falling back on a tired logical fallacy, why don't you try actually arguing against the points I made?

Jenny said...

Juris said...

@Bart: you wrote "I'm not speaking as a progressive when I say I hope it fails. I'm speaking as someone who wouldn't benefit at all from the changes in the bill.

You don't have to explain that you're an utterly selfish troglodyte, Bart. We knew that already.
===============================

it's a shame, he considers himself a progressive, isn't.

I'm not a minority, so I wouldn't benefit from civil rights legislation, yet I support it. I'm not gay, but I support gay marriage, even though I don't benefit from it. I don't have any children, yet I support SChip insurance, even though I don't benefit from it. I guess I should be like Burt and call for the repeal of civil rights.

Jenny said...

Burt, put your money were you mouth is.

I bet you bernie is gonna vote for the bill.

C'mon. How much. How much.

And you didn't address why Saint Paul (author of "The Conscious of a Liberal") is supporting it - HA!

Burt said...

Juris - Eat that shit sandwich. Eat it all up.

Burt said...

Jenny - Do you have anything to offer in support of the bill other than logical fallacies?

shma said...

Bart

"3 isn't really happening unless you are over 55."

Actually, even if you're 55 or older you can't buy into Medicare unless you already qualify for the insurance exchange. In other words, if you're 55 and employed (but not self-employed) by a company which gives you insurance, then you're stuck with it, even if you want to buy into Medicare.

Jenny

"Tell me again why this is being negotiated out of the health care reform bill?
====================================

Haven't you been paying attention?..."

That question was obviously rhetorical. We should not be pleased with corruption trumping the desires of a strong majority of the country.

--

As far as this bill goes, it is a small achievement, but falls far, far short of what is necessary to bring the US in line with first world health care. Specifically on the issue of lowering medical inflation this bill does almost nothing. It does not provide a framework for the US to move to a simple insurance system instead of the hodgepodge of insurance systems in place now. It does not induce insurers to lower premiums and it does not effect the majority of the country which has insurance through their employers.

It's really hard to see how this will positively impact any but the poorest of citizens.

And that is a very low bar to clear for a party which was elected with a mandate for serious change and has a filibuster proof majority. Who knows how long it will be again before the Democrats will be able to bring this issue to the table again? How much more severe will the problem be by that time?

Burt said...

By the way, anybody curious about what the insurance industry think about this bill?

Well, wonder no more:

With the Senate shifting sharply away from a "pure public option," an insurance industry insider who has been deeply involved in the health care fight emails to declare victory.

"We WIN," the insider writes. "Administered by private insurance companies. No government funding. No government insurance competitor.”


But hey, people who want real health care reform are just selfish troglodytes, so what do we know.

Robert said...

And that is a very low bar to clear for a party which was elected with a mandate for serious change and has a filibuster proof majority.

This is clearly a complete falsehood. If the party had anything resembling a filibuster proof majority, the public option would have been passed 6 months ago.

Jenny said...

Burt,

what do you expect them to do: cry and declare defeat. Since when do you trust insurance companies, much less insurance propaganda.

We've seen this before. Even after the teabaggers lost NY-20, palin and rest of the knuckledraggers on this blog were declaring victory.

Hell, when palin resigned, her supporters insisted it was a victory.

Jenny said...

Burt,

I'm waiting.

How much money are you going to bet me that Bernie doesn't vote for the bill?

C'mon. Christmas sales are near, I won't want some mad money.

Don't cut n run Burt, put up your wallet. We'll ask Nate to hold the money until the bill is passed.

ps I knew you couldn't come up with an answer to why Saint Paul is supporting the bill.

DCM in FL said...

actually, I am amazed that the CONs are not livid & spewing loudly about the proposal [presumably part of the compromise with Medicare expansion] to mandate that insurers must use 90%+ of premiums for actual client services

AN ATTEMPT TO CAP THE FREE MARKET/PRIVATE PROFITS [gasp] !!!

I wish they would require that any insurers selling the new mandated HCR policies must be non-profit [like BC & BS used to be back when they were affordable + how most other 1st world countries have their health insurance systems organized successfully like in Germany, Swiss, et al]

that could work in place of a public option IF these non-profits were regulated appropriately

yoink said...

A public option by any other name? An expansion of medicare eligibility plus an expansion of medicaid eligibility -- both goverment run, single-payer plans. Isn't that a public option by another name, and won't they, between them, cover more people than the watered-down version of a public option would have?


At this point I think the left-wing of the Democratic party is far more interested in the name than the substance.

If the senate compromise is as the various leaks about it describe, it's a huge win for progressives. Essentially you get the function of the Public Option through with the fig-leaf (for conservative dems) of it being run by a private not-for-profit rather than directly by the government AND you get a vast expansion of Medicare.

These are both things that liberals used to plead for as alternatives to the more complex details of the health reform bills under discussion. Remember "why not just give everybody the deal that members of Congress have" and "why not just give everybody medicare"? Well a not-for-profit running health-insurance under Govt. mandated rules IS the deal members of Congress have, and for people 55 and up, Medicare is now an available option.

And yet somehow the Move-On crowd is desperate to play this as a defeat simply because they don't get to use the words "public option."

Krugman likes it. Howard Dean likes it. But apparently it's all just an evil corporatist plot unless you get to utter the magic words.

Burt said...

Jenny - How old are you?

Jenny said...

Burt.

ahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahhaha
hahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahah
ahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahhahahah
ahahahahhahahhahaahhahahahhahahahhaha

I knew you wouldn't bet me. I knew it.

How are you gonna argue it's a bad bill when america's leading socialist supports the bill?

shrinkers said...

This bill is far from perfect. But it is a bill. This Congress, under the skilled leadership of Pelosi, Reid, and President Obama, is managing to accomplish something that America has been on our to-do list since the time of Teddy Roosevelt.

No Federal program is static. It will be tweaked and improved over the years. But at least now we will have something to tweak and improve. The significance of that is staggering.

This is the reason conservatives are still braying against the bill -- they are aware of what an incredible achievement this is, how popular health care reform will be, and how great a loss it is for them. The Republicans have done nothing but lie and obstruct, and yet the Dems are managing to get a piece of top-flight major legislation passed them anyway, underlining the irrelevance of the Republicans in 21st century America.

The disaster of the Bush Administration, supported by a Republican Congress, showed the idiocy and destructiveness of conservative philosophy. We are now seeing the ineffectiveness of conservative politics, as their politics of lies and hate and division proves unable to accomplish anything -- just as that mode of politics led to the Republican electoral defeats in '06 and '08.

The Republicans are in disarray, and the Democratic victory of this major bill will shake them up still more. Look for 2010 to be the year the Republicans burn each other at the stake, convinced that their continuing decline is because they have not yet been hard line enough. Look for teabaggers to oppose a significant number of sitting Republican senators and congressmen, handing several seats to the Dems as they did in NY-23.

This is fun!

yoink said...

The insurance companies will continue to raise premiums and so more will not be able to afford it, so the Gov will be on the hook for yet more expenditures.

So why won't Insurance company B undercut insurance company A's premiums and steal all that business away from them?

If your claim is that the government is utterly incapable of seeking alterative bids for the work it contracts for then I'm struggling a little to understand why you would ever be in favor of the government running ANY business. If all they ever do is accept whatever price anyone demands, then it won't matter if they're trying to keep premiums low--the drug companies will just charge whatever they want for their drugs, the hospitals will charge $3,000,000 per hour of hospital stay, the PSPs will charge--oh, what's a nice round figure?--$1,000,000 per visit and the whole thing will crash and burn in a month.

Obviously insurance is not a perfect marketplace, but when the Federal Govt. is seeking competing bids between multiple non-profits to take over an ENORMOUS public program, there will be strong market forces operating to moderate those bids.

Jenny said...
This post has been removed by the author.
DCM in FL said...

JENNY

IIRC the last statement on the compromise from Saunders said something to the effect that he would not stand in the way of the caucus...

hardly a ringing endorsement but I suppose you could call it tepid 'support' assuming he votes the same as Lieberman...

BUT I read between those lines that it means only he will vote for cloture - and then possibly vote against the bill itself

that still would allow the majority to pass their compromise

so at this point, no one knows

Jenny said...

yoink.

Exactly.

Krugman likes it. Dean likes it. America's leading socialist, Bernie sanders likes it. Anthony Weiner REALLY likes it.

Jenny said...

shma, you can talk about filibuster proof majority all you want, but that's not realistic. The fact is the majority is compromised by 5 to 10 corrupt dems. They're on the take. Until we deal with that, then you can't expect an optimal outcome.

yoink said...

You know, it would be nice if just once those who like to whine about the Democrats not using their "filibuster proof majority" would specify exactly what bribe or threat they would use (if they were in Harry Reid's position) to secure the votes of the Liebermans and Nelsons of this world. It's not as if Reid has some secret Democratic dog-whistle he can blow to enforce obedience. What, exactly, did he fail to offer or to threaten to get the votes he needed?

Jenny said...

Look, the way to deal with the problem is to replace the Dems who are on the take.

That is not an easy fight, but no good fight is ever easy.

Corrupt Dems/Enemies List:

Lieberman
Ben Nelson
Blanche Lincoln
Mary Landrieu
Kent Conrad
Max Baucus
Tom Carper

yoink said...

IIRC the last statement on the compromise from Saunders said something to the effect that he would not stand in the way of the caucus...


Assuming you mean Sanders, what he has actually said is that the proposed compromise "in fact, at the end of the day, may be stronger than the very weak public options" in the House bill. He also says "if you add to Medicaid the development of many new community health centers, you will be providing a lot more health care access to lower income people. If you do an opt-in for people 55 years of age through Medicare, you're also providing a significant benefit"; it's clear he sees a lot to like in the deal. The thing he's fighting (somewhat ironically) is the tax on "Cadillac" insurance plans.

Eric said...

Thank you Nate!!! Your enlightened description of the truth behind the goings on with this bill are appreciated and valuable. Almost all parties that speak and are heard on this bill have extreme biases that taint either their perception of thw bill or they way they want to be perceived when describing the stregths and weaknesses of each part. The media, almost all of them, are in us vs them mentality, and the politicians are both in negotiating positions and need to look a certain way for appearances sake for their constituents. Therefore, you almost can't hear a sound opinion about the truth of this bill from anyone. You are to the left of many in your ideals and politics, but you're also a realist and try to paint a true picture. Thank you. I tend to agree with you, the public option has become a great bargaining chip for the progressives to give up to get other things in it's place that are likely more valuable. Now, the key for the Dems is allow for the public option to go away, but still be able to declare a victory that doesn't damage their long term electability. Bottom linei s there's no way they were going to get 60 votes w/ any public option of value anyway.

DCM in FL said...

YOINK

yes, thanks for pointing out my minor typo...ay

[you neglected to insert a comma after "He also says" btw...lol]

yet, Bernie has apparently NOT gone on public record as 'supporting' the actual proposed 'compromise' in terms of securing his vote for the final bill

or do you have specific references to link that state categorically otherwise ???

those are mere pol platitudes which appear to explain why he will vote for cloture & support his caucus to allow the vote to move forward

still, better than nuttin'

Mr. Universe said...

@shma

Lisa Simpson: "Do you even know what a rhetorical question is, Dad?"

Homer Simpson: "Do I know what a rhetorical question is?"



It's actually funnier with the audio.

yoink said...

No need to be defensive, DCM--I hadn't read the whole thread and just wanted to guard against talking at cross-purposes.

And, sure, he's not come out and said "I will vote for this bill." But what he has said is much, much stronger than "I will hold my nose and vote for cloture." He's saying that this is a better bill than the House one; whatever way you slice it, that shows that he doesn't agree that the public option is the be-all and end-all of healthcare reform.

Todd Dugdale said...

What is lost in Nate's analysis is the other side of the coin.

The Right has gone very far out on a limb to terrify as many people as possible on the HCR issue: socialism, death panels, the death of Medicare, bureaucrats over-ruling your doctor, rationing, job-killing, etc.

They even invoked a toddler's unspoken opinion, which as everyone knows is the final word on any issue. I, for one, look forward to Maddie's illuminating take on the 2010 elections, economic recovery, and environmental legislation.

So what happens when the sky doesn't fall and none of the Right's hysterical predictions come to pass?

By now we are already supposed to be seeing, according to the Right, hyper-inflation, massive currency devaluation, and mobs with torches and pitchforks on the White House lawn screaming for Obama's head. And Maddie would like that, too.

The rhetorical job of the DNC for the next year should be discrediting the fear-mongering and hysteria of the Right. The Right has gambled a great deal on HCR and the stimulus, and it would be terrible to allow them to welch on that wager.

More importantly, the Right has risked an enormous amount of credibility with its base, which has lapped up every Doomsday scenario put forth and parroted it endlessly. This is a base that already went out on a limb over Iraq and for McCain, and really doesn't want to be made to look foolish again. The GOP has already lost the credibility of the nation at large with Bush, but now they risk losing credibility among themselves...just as they move into fractious primary season.

However, the GOP can always rely on the sage advice of a toddler named Maddie in order to minimise the damage.

harold said...

Burt -

I want the same ultimate goal that you want. I want full universal health coverage. I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen, living in the US (where I was born). I would instantly support an extension of Medicare to the entire population. Full disclosure - that might or might not benefit me economically (beyond my personal health insurance), but I would support it either way.

The subtle point some people are making is that the opposition to a sane health care program in the US is massive and powerful, and that this may represent a slow, painful step in the right direction.

Now barrage me with some curse words and insults.

shma said...

Robert

"This [the Democrats 60 seat majority] is clearly a complete falsehood. If the party had anything resembling a filibuster proof majority, the public option would have been passed 6 months ago."

What reality do you live in? The Democratic caucus has had 60 seats in the senate since Al Franken was sworn in.

If they can't hold their senators in line it's their own damn fault.

Jenny

"The fact is the majority is compromised by 5 to 10 corrupt dems. They're on the take. Until we deal with that, then you can't expect an optimal outcome."

Then perhaps you should deal with them instead of giving them the power to dictate the substance of Democratic bills.

Universe

Fortunately, I have the content of every Simpsons episode from the first 9 seasons burned into my skull, so I very much appreciate that.

yoink said...

Todd, is there some percentage of the Republican base capable of actually recognizing the fact that reality has failed to conform to their paranoid delusions?

A group of people capable of believing that Obama has turned the US into a fascist/communist hell-hole the likes of which the world has never before seen aren't necessarily all that likely to be troubled by pesky little problems like a steadily dropping unemployment rate or a pronounced drop in medical bankruptcies or what have you, are they?

PaulK said...

@yoink, "So why won't Insurance company B undercut insurance company A's premiums and steal all that business away from them?"

If it were a proper market, that is exactly what would happen. But, the insurance companies have acted as a trust (and are protected from anti-trust legislation). They set rates and they agree to raise them together. Since the business will not go to one, they all benefit.

Medicare "advantage" is a perfect example. The gov pays way too much for shoddy coverage and even "negotiate" it over market value. This is why there is so much push to get rid of that program - it costs us taxpayers a fortune.

Medicare is an example of where a gov insurance can work fine: they negotiate rates and do quite well. The difference is that they set rates for Doctors and hospitals, neither of which pay the 100s of millions in lobbying money to ensure they get paid too much.

DCM in FL said...

YOINK

I agree with you actually. MY point above was that Jenny was over-representing Sanders' 'support'.

He is clearly on board to move this thing forward - and THAT is what is most important imho.

as a progressive, I do not care whether he votes yes or no on the bill itself if he finds it lacking - but the caucus needs his vote to enforce cloture or the CONs will 'win' a stalemate

the real issue is what will later emerge from the congressional conference committee that must merge the disparate House & Senate bills...

Burt said...

Jenny - Seriously. How old are you?

Because you're acting a lot like my 8 year old nephew right now.

yoink said...

shma:

If they can't hold their senators in line it's their own damn fault.

Yoink:

You know, it would be nice if just once those who like to whine about the Democrats not using their "filibuster proof majority" would specify exactly what bribe or threat they would use (if they were in Harry Reid's position) to secure the votes of the Liebermans and Nelsons of this world. It's not as if Reid has some secret Democratic dog-whistle he can blow to enforce obedience. What, exactly, did he fail to offer or to threaten to get the votes he needed?

yoink said...

the real issue is what will later emerge from the congressional conference committee that must merge the disparate House & Senate bills...

Well, there's always the possibility of the House simply adopting the Senate bill without changes. That may very well be the best way forward.

shma said...

My god, Yoink, have you buried your head in the sand for the last 6 months?

You don't think Reid could threaten to take away Lieberman's chairmanships? Or make sure any senator that dares vote against cloture is kept out of future bill-writing processes? That they can't threaten embattled senators like Lincoln by holding DSCC donations over her head?

I mean come on, you can't possibly be so ignorant not to know the kind of power the Democratic leadership has over senators.

brian said...

I may be OK with this bill. We'll have 2 elections to gain enough seats to cancel this mess before it takes effect. In the meantime, the "pain" (taxes) will already be in effect and people will grow more upset. Massive new tax on health insurers---insurers will probably put that as a seperate item on your quarterly bill to show how much its costing you, not them.

Either way, without the public option, costs are sure to skyrocket, which will enrage people, and we may be able to overturn it even after 2013.

yoink said...

If it were a proper market, that is exactly what would happen. But, the insurance companies have acted as a trust (and are protected from anti-trust legislation). They set rates and they agree to raise them together.

Actually, that's only partly true. Big employers play different insurance companies off against each other all the time as they search for the best deal for their employees. It tends to be the people getting individual coverage who get most badly burned by insurance company collusion. But that's part of the whole theory of the Insurance Exchange; it puts the uninsured in the same position as a big employer; all the insurance companies are forced to compete in a transparent market. That's why I've always thought the Public Option was largely beside the point (as has the Obama administration). If the Insurance Exchange works properly, market forces will do as much to keep the premiums affordable as competition with a govt. option ever would.

However, as I understand the current compromise deal (and we don't know the details for sure, so this is speculative) it involves offering a contract to a private non-profit to run a "public option" for the govt: so that every state market has at least one guaranteed not-for-profit competitor setting a ceiling for the market. The contract for that role will be a matter of fierce competition (and, presumably, subject to renewed competition and bidding at regular intervals). I don't, in principle, see any reason for that process not to lead to exactly the same premiums as a purely "govt run" public option.

Ben Vos said...

Agree with you, Nate. The Public Option has for the most part been a big shiny distraction in a messy, complicated piece of legislation. But having said that, the psychic loss from "failure" may alienate the base, and Dems had better do some serious damage control if they plan to shore up their base in time for tough 2010 elections.

Robert said...

What reality do you live in? The Democratic caucus has had 60 seats in the senate since Al Franken was sworn in.

Obviously not the same one as you. You seem to think that there's some guy at the top of the democratic party that hands down marching orders and that the democrats follow them to a t. If this mythical being says "public option" or "cap and trade" then all democrats are instantly going to say "sir, yes sir!".

It's nucking futs! Just because the blue dogs are part of the democratic party and caucus clearly doesn't force them to have the same opinions as the rest of the party. If it did, as I said, the public option would have passed 6 months ago. But they don't, and you cannot simply expect them to vote a particular way because the majority of the party wants them to. That would make them every bit as corrupt as any politician who votes the way their special interest donators want them to.

60 senators belonging to the democratic party does not in any way (and never ever will) equate to "a filibuster proof majority". It wouldn't be true if you were talking about republicans either. This isn't a subtle difference, but rather the major source of the flaw of party politics to begin with, which is that belonging to a party never actually has any implication on how the politician will govern/legislate.

Burt said...

Shma - Or how about reconciliation? Obama and Reid should have gone to Nelson and Lieberman at the beginning of the process and told them to start negotiating in good faith, or reconciliation would happen and they would be cut out of the process entirely.

But your ideas are good, too. Do you know why Republican Senators don't filibuster their own legislation and kneecap their own caucus? Because their leadership won't stand for it. There are consequences for bad behavior on the other side. In that aspect, our side needs to be the same. The GOP would never allow the 1 or 2 most liberal members of their caucus to dictate policy to the other 50+, and that's why they were able to get everything they wanted for six years despite having an unpopular platform and much narrower Congressional majorities.

Jenny said...

brian said...

I may be OK with this bill. We'll have 2 elections to gain enough seats to cancel this mess before it takes effect.
==================================

I see, Teabaggers can't count, either.

Ya would need 60 votes to overturn the bill. The republican have never-ever had a filibuster proof senate.

live by the filibuster, die by the filibuster -- D'oh!

Jenny said...

Burt,

Which committee overseas the budget reconciliation? And who is the chairman.

Come back when you have those answers, and you'll have you're answer.

yoink said...

You don't think Reid could threaten to take away Lieberman's chairmanships?

I don't think Lieberman would care a toss. Or, actually, I think Lieberman would be delighted were such a threat made public. All Lieberman wants at this point is to grab as much of the spotlight as possible until the end of his current term.

Or make sure any senator that dares vote against cloture is kept out of future bill-writing processes?

That's a threat that you can't keep.

That they can't threaten embattled senators like Lincoln by holding DSCC donations over her head?

Yeah, of course they can. But someone like Lincoln isn't (like Lieberman) just being a rogue Attention Whore. She's genuinely and plausibly worried about defending herself against attacks from the right in a conservative state. She has good reason to think that a vote for a "public option" could torpedo her chances for reelection. If she sees the threat as being "if you don't do something that will see you not get elected then we'll make sure you don't get elected" she has no reason to toe the line. And, furthermore, she has a great comeback: "O.K., great--you get me chucked out and see how you like dealing with a Republican replacement? Sure, I'm not a safe vote on some issues you care deeply about, but I AM a safe vote on many others. A Republican replacement would be a safe vote AGAINST the progressive agenda on almost every issue. Are you sure you want to go there?"

She has no reason, in fact, to consider the threat credible.

So, 0-for-3. Got any others?

yoink said...

Shma - Or how about reconciliation?

Sigh. Why are the left-wing democrats just incapable of actually finding out how the reconciliation process works: and why it's not some magic panacea that allows you to get anything you want through Congress?

Jenny said...

Burt said...

Do you know why Republican Senators don't filibuster their own legislation and kneecap their own caucus?
===========================

You're childish.

The republicans failed to privatize social security and failed to sell US ports to Dubai and they failed to pass an amendment to outlaw gay marriage because the caucus revolted. They couldn't even get 50 votes on banning gay marriage.

Those case were worse than filibusters, they simply voted AGAINST the leadership.

shma said...

Robert...

60 senators belonging to the democratic party does not in any way (and never ever will) equate to "a filibuster proof majority".

That is exactly what a 'filibuster proof majority' means according to everyone else in the world, including the authors of this site. So instead of trying to get the rest of the world to come over to your made up interpretations of political phrases, why don't you actually contribute something useful to the discussion.

Bart DePalma said...

filistro said...

So... which items on my Thought List does a rugged, courageous and independent-minded Tea Partier like you disagree with?

"Remember men...


About 45% of us are women. The member of our group taking the lead on internet networking goes by the moniker mom4freedom.

we ALL believe in lower taxes...

This is your one accurate item. Blind hogs and acorns?

...oppose abortion

The issue has yet to come up in our meetings. The Tea Party movement is a rebellion against the massive increase in government power over our lives, spending, deficits and the inevitable tax increases to pay for it all. Live free or die stuff. Many of the libertarians among us probably believe that government has no business here.

...fear minorities

This would be amusing to the African American minister who spoke at the Tax Day Tea Party demonstration in Colorado Springs to roaring applause. Play your race card elsewhere.

hate health care

We rather like our present health care and wish to preserve it against Obamacare. The Dems can take their plan to outlaw my HSA and put all 2000 pages where the sun don't shine.

...think Obama is evil

We save the term evil for folks that truly deserve it like true totalitarian mass murders and terrorists. Mr. Obama is simply a garden variety EU style democratic socialist who needs to be stopped.

...and Muslims are bad

No, just the ones who seek to kill us and ours.

...deny global warming

We have no problem looking at our thermometers to check to see if its warming. What we do oppose are frauds posing as science with an ideological agenda to limit our liberties and take our income.

...love war

You mean like our Nobel Peace Prize winning President?

...and adore Dick Cheney

You folks on the left are in the business of adoring politicians in cults of personality. Say after me: Yes we can!

Like I said, you really have no clue about what libertarians and conservatives are all about. Instead, you rely upon the above talking points provided by equally ignorant Dem partisans.

Seriously, go to a local Tea Party meeting and learn something. I doubt we will change your positions, but it will disabuse you of the propaganda.

PaulK said...

@yoink, 1st of all, only the very largest companies can negotiate with the insurance companies this way, and that is because they often self-fund. But, even the big companies struggle with the constant "tuning" of the packages (which usually means cutting features).
Insurance companies run a racket where they lock in only one or two players in an area; this only works because there is a I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine model of protection. This stops all medium and small businesses from getting a good deal (and there are a lot more of those employing a lot more people).
Insurance pools have been tried at the State level, but do not work because the insurance companies have no incentive to negotiate a good rate with them.
One big problem with a broken market is that as long as their is a high barrier to entry, there is no risk of competition and so it is rare that any one company will break the "deal".

shma said...

Yoink:


"You don't think Reid could threaten to take away Lieberman's chairmanships?

I don't think Lieberman would care a toss."

It doesn't matter what you think, since you're 100% wrong. Lieberman clearly wants power and values his Homeland Security chairmanship. He's using it right now to launch a witch hunt against 'terrorists' in the military.

"Or make sure any senator that dares vote against cloture is kept out of future bill-writing processes?

That's a threat that you can't keep. "

Says you, with nothing to back up your position.

"[Lincoln] has no reason, in fact, to consider the threat credible."

Let her call the Reid's bluff then, it's not like you lose anything by making the threat. She's already not voting for cloture.

And it's not like you can't partially follow through on that threat by holding back money in her race until the health care vote is over. It's a lot harder to call that bluff.

You asked what Reid could do, I gave you answers and you dismissed them out of hand, showing you aren't even willing to listen to any action other than handing over the bill to 5 conservative senators to let them pick it apart.

In any case, it's too late to go over Reid's failings as a Senate Majority Leader. We'll have to wait until the next time Democrats get a 60+ vote majority* before the US can get a first world health care system.

*there Robert, does that wording make you feel better?

Eric said...

Susan Collins is as much of a Democrat as Ben Nelson. To claim that not being able to get 60 "Democrat" Senators to agree is somehow Harry Reid's fault or the party's fault is absurd. Landrieu, Blanche, Nelson, etc. are in tough positions because they are from Republican states. If they go too far left, their constituencies/voters will not be getting what they want. In those states, they voted for the Moderate "Democrat" over the Extreme Righty. Emphasize the word Moderate. If they don't want to vote for a bill because it's too far to the left, it's very understandable. I am a Liberal Democrat, but I'm a realist. Compromise is a necessity here. I don't like Harry Reid and I'm particularly annoyed with Joe Lieberman, but I don't blame Obama or Reid or Landrieu, Lincoln, or Nelson for standing firm to get a moderate bill and trying to negotiate for their wants. In the long run, amendments can be added as warranted.

shrinkers said...

@brian
Either way, without the public option, costs are sure to skyrocket,

Gosh, brian, I didn't realize you are a fan of the public option. That's pretty cool. So can we count on your support in a drive to add that into health care reform as an addition once the current bill has become law?

Bart DePalma said...

As to Item 7 in Nate's comments, here is where the people are concerning Obamacare from adults to likely voters in Virginia:

Gallup: 44% for, 48% against (Adults).

The Democrat PPP : Support for Obama on health care has hit another new low with just 39% of voters now expressing approval of his health care plans and 52% opposed. 90% of respondents who said they were opposed to Obama's plan said it was because it involved the government too much in health care with just 6% saying their opposition was because it didn't create enough government involvement.
(Registered voters)

Rasmussen: 41% for, 51% against. (Likely Voters)

Rasmussen: 45% for, 54% against. (Likely Voters in the Battleground State Virginia)

Are the Dems really going to pass a bill that ranks among the ten most unpopular legislation in the past generation?

Jacob said...

@Jenny

I agree this may end up being a pretty decent bill for progressives, but for fuck's sake what does it matter if Bernie Sanders and Paul Krugman support it? Their support is not what makes it a decent bill.

Todd Dugdale said...

yoink wrote:
"Todd, is there some percentage of the Republican base capable of actually recognizing the fact that reality has failed to conform to their paranoid delusions?"

I believe so, if they are called on it. Wingnuts desperately want to be taken seriously, at least in general.

Thus far, the hysteria has been about what Obama will do and what the results of his policies will be. These assertions cannot be disproven at the moment, so they are granted some kind of polite benefit of the doubt which they universally equate with agreement.

The demographic that counts the most will be the Independents, which are substantially refugees from the Republican Party. As they see that they have once again been played for saps by the Republican propaganda machine, expect them to be bitter about it.

But there are also the traditional Republicans that have been promised great things by nodding along with the birthers and teabaggers, much like they were promised when the evangelicals took over the Party. If the leadership gets called on their predictions of an Apocalypse and they are made to look like hysterical fools, look for the energy to fade from that base.

Another factor is that the base is essentially eating their own. High-profile scams have already developed within the delusional and gullible base, and leaders like Beck are pushing gold scams that will collapse unless the Apocalypse comes. Bachmann has endorsed certified con men, and their prey has largely been among her own base, including pastors and entire churches. On the fringe, ideological con men such as Pete Hendrickson have sold many on the idea that paying taxes is voluntary, and they have gone out on a limb with the IRS. Now that Hendrickson is convicted, the IRS is getting these victims to roll on each other, and they find themselves and their families in a dire situation. Likewise with the "sovereign citizen" and UCC/redemptionist movements, now that Elvick is in a sanitarium.

They have been lied to, but more importantly, they fell for the propaganda and nothing turned out the way they were told it would.

shma said...

"To claim that not being able to get 60 "Democrat" Senators to agree is somehow Harry Reid's fault or the party's fault is absurd."

What exactly do you think the job of the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Majority Whip is?

If Reid can't pass the legislation his party wants, it is absolutely his fault.

Jacob said...

Ya know, I've been more impressed than usual with Harry Reid lately. Sure he's weak, but he seems to be pulling out all the stops to get a workable bill passed.

In reality shma, yoink, and others, you're all right to an extent.

Threatening chairmanships (probably woulda worked with Baucus, maybe with Lieberboy) could have some impact, and might scare other Democrats into line, though threatening campaign funds would be futile (as it would almost certainly be empty).

To say that Reid & co. could have done more to whip the caucus is probably true, but not to an extent that they could have forced passage of a significantly better bill guaranteed. Even reconciliation could lose them some of the process hawks, and might not guarantee fifty.

Clout is a fickle thing, and if you blow it, it's gone. If you use it too sparingly, it's worthless. The worst case scenario in terms of prospects would be the bill being defeated on the Senate (or House) floor, and it's not out of the question within a few degrees of variation.

In hindsight, Reid (and more importantly the White House) could have handled this better from the beginning, but it has not been an abject failure, and I'm amazed that something as decent as this bill is as close to passage as it seems.

Jenny said...

Jacob said...

@Jenny

I agree this may end up being a pretty decent bill for progressives, but for fuck's sake what does it matter if Bernie Sanders and Paul Krugman support it? Their support is not what makes it a decent bill.

=================================

It's turnabout.

I'm sure you've have seen bloggers bash Obama for not following Dr.Krugman's advice, for example on nationalizing banks.

How can they say the bill sucks when Krugman supports after they've been using krugman's judgment as a benchmark.

Same thing with Sanders.

shma said...

"though threatening campaign funds would be futile (as it would almost certainly be empty)."

It doesn't have to be. All it takes is some balls. And the best part is, you only really have to follow through with one senator. After that, no one dares call your bluff.

"To say that Reid & co. could have done more to whip the caucus is probably true, but not to an extent that they could have forced passage of a significantly better bill guaranteed."

That depends on how early he started whipping. But it's hard to do 'what if' scenarios. All I know is that they should have tried. If they couldn't have gotten a significantly better bill, then so be it.

"In hindsight, Reid (and more importantly the White House) could have handled this better from the beginning, but it has not been an abject failure, and I'm amazed that something as decent as this bill is as close to passage as it seems."

I will say that Reid did well in one respect. By keeping the public option in until this late, he managed to get something for dropping it. If he had listened to some people shouting for its abandonment, even the piecemeal solutions like Medicare for exchange eligible members over 55 wouldn't be in the bill now.

He's still not in Nancy Pelosi's league, but he has improved.

Of course the problem is this 'decent' bill doesn't do enough (or almost anything) to stop increasing health care costs, and that problem will only get worse. So yeah, it's better than nothing, but they should have gone all out to get the best possible bill. Spiralling health care costs are a serious long-term threat to the US economy. I can't imagine there are many more things worth spending 'clout' over.

Mr. Universe said...

What reality do you live in? The Democratic caucus has had 60 seats in the senate since Al Franken was sworn in.

I think in reality we should get used to the idea that we have 59 Senators and the Party of Joe. In the next election cycle I plan to work to dethrone two congressmen. Lieberman and Inhofe. As soon as this health care thing is a done deal I'm going to actively campaign to have Liberman stripped of his committee chair.

shma said...

"I think in reality we should get used to the idea that we have 59 Senators and the Party of Joe."

The blame for the monster that is Joe Lieberman rests in part with the Democrats which were willing to give him caucus representation and chairmanships without getting any commitments in return.

Remember when they kept saying "Joe's with us on everything except the war"? How long is that list of exceptions now?

Robert said...

So instead of trying to get the rest of the world to come over to your made up interpretations of political phrases, why don't you actually contribute something useful to the discussion.

My contribution, whether or not you find it useful, is to point out that 60 senators from one party is quite clearly not the same thing as filibuster proof. I don't care how many people use the term, cause it doesn't apply. The democrats have 60 seats, and yet they obviously aren't filibuster proof, or they wouldn't give two shits about Lieberman or anyone else threatening to filibuster.

I don't see what's so difficult to comprehend here. If I gave you a cotton sweater, and had a billion people sign an affidavit saying they believed it to be bullet-proof, would you let someone fire a clip out of an m-16 at your chest while wearing it? I'm guessing not, because we both know that calling it bullet-proof wouldn't actually stop a single one of those bullets.

Saying that a party having 60 seated (or even 61) senators is filibuster proof is false, no matter how you want to spin it. Continuing to pretend that having 60 senators who are members of your party is some magic ticket to passing all the legislation you want is to continue to live in a fantasy land where it takes 6 months to finally recognize that no, the votes for a public option just aren't there.

If the democrats had realized 6 months ago what they know now, they would have passed their compromise bill, and moved on to doing something more useful than pretending that greasing blue dog pole is going to get anywhere.

Human said...

Democrats have proven once again that they are no different than Republicans.
Peace.

Pointless Pretentious Pseudoprofundities said...

Nate:

I'm one of those people who you wind up pissing off when you talk about the public option. I will try to explain our collective anger as succinctly and reasonably as possible.

I'd even be willing to concede that your policy analysis is probably accurate: the version of the public option in the House bill was a relatively minor part of that bill, and the passage of a bill without a public option would nonetheless be a significant achievement for progressives.

The anger directed at you and at the Democratic party leaders stems from four facts:

1) President Obama actively campaigned on a health care plan with a strong public option and no mandate or penalties for people who choose not to purchase insurance. People who favored a strong public option felt like they were voting for a strong public option when they voted for candidate Obama.

2) The actual bill that President Obama eventually signs into law will likely be the inverse of what he campaigned on regarding these two issues -- it will include no public option, but it will have a mandate with penalties for people who choose not to buy insurance.

3) Polling data indicates that the plan President Obama campaigned (and won) on is still quite popular -- especially the public option, which continues to have an approval rating of +18 or so. However, the plan President Obama will eventually sign into law -- the plan with mandates/penalties and no public option -- remains extremely unpopular, with an approval rating closer to -18.

4) The popular health care plan that President Obama campaigned on is anathema to the insurance industry; whereas the unpopular health care plan that will likely become law is tolerable for the insurance industry.

Irrespective of the actual policy merits of the bill (which may be very good because of the added regulations on private insurers), the perception is that the general public is going to be force-fed a bill that they don't like and didn't vote for. And the perception is that this is happening because the health insurance industry simply won't tolerate a health care plan that the public widely supports -- one with a strong public option and no mandates/penalties.

And, looking to the future, I think that this anger at President Obama and the Democratic party leadership will not be easily shed, mostly because I think that the perceptions stated above are in fact accurate.

shma said...

Robert...

"I don't care how many people use the term, cause it doesn't apply"

Like I said, if you want spend your time here demanding that other people use your own personal definition of a political term that doesn't fit with the rest of the world's definition, that's fine.

But you aren't contributing positively to the discussion and I don't see any reason to respond to you further.

Jenny said...

Mr. Universe said...

In the next election cycle I plan to work to dethrone two congressmen. Lieberman and Inhofe.

===========================
don't forget to dump Lincoln in 11 short months.

Frankly, even if we lose the primary, I'd rather vote for the republican, just to send a chill down the corrupt dems backs.

Eric said...

how does anyone think 58+ Sanders and Lieberman is a true "filibuster" proof Majority when Landrieu, Lincoln, Nelson, Lieberman, and a couple of others will not vote in lock step with their Democratic compadres? They have their reasons. I would vote similar to Bernie Sanders on most issues, but it's stupidity, naive, and counterproductive to expect all 60 supposed Democrats to fall in line. The whole reason there are 60 "Democrats" is because the will of the people was to vote in Moderates over Bush/Cheney right ideologues in borderline situations. In other words, the only Republicans left standing are hardcore Republicans from RED states. All close calls are Democrats. How can you expect 100% loyalty from many moderates?

Robert said...

But you aren't contributing positively to the discussion and I don't see any reason to respond to you further.

You are a moron.

shma said...

"Robert said...

But you aren't contributing positively to the discussion and I don't see any reason to respond to you further.

You are a moron."

Thanks for proving my point.

Robert said...

I would vote similar to Bernie Sanders on most issues, but it's stupidity, naive, and counterproductive to expect all 60 supposed Democrats to fall in line

Whoa there! Don't you know that everyone else in the internet says that 60 seats means filibuster proof? Better fall in line, just like them democrats!

Thanks for proving my point.

Thanks for responding to me further! You can't even be consistent with your own statements, but you think that 60 seats is consistent with filibuster proof. And you think this despite the fact that having 60 seats has not prevented the threat of filibuster from being effective.

But don't worry, I will still think you're a moron, no matter how you try to explain that the two things are equivalent.

shrinkers said...

On the whole idea of filibuster-proof majorities --

Aren't all you guys forgetting something? These are Democrats we're talking about. Don't you recall the Will Rogers quote?

I mean cripes, if we can get a couple dozen of them to vote the same way -- even when it's just a yes-no question -- that's an accomplishment to be proud of!

The whole point of having a Democratic Party is that it embraces the idea of democracy. Hence the name. Democracy, like it or not, is messy. And democracy requires the clash and give-and-take of disparate voices. And no one, ever, gets everything they want.

Democracy is having a good year in America. Which means the Democratic Party is also having a good year. Getting enough Senate Dems behind a bill this big is enormous.

filistro said...

Bart De Palma:

Sheesh, you're way too easy, Bart. In fact, you're not even a challenge.

On every point I raised, your response contained the words "we", "us" or "ours." It's a level of groupthink that's truly staggering. Does any Tea Partier ever have an original, individual thought? Do you, personally, ever hold an opinion that is in any way at variance with your fellow travelers? Because I see no evidence of it. (In fact, illustrating groupthink was the POINT OF THE WHOLE EXERCISE, Bart. How could you have missed that?)

Also this is what Nate is pointing out, and what Shiloh highlighted so brilliantly. Liberals are strong, independent thinkers and frequenlty argue among themselves. You witness it here all the time.

Tea Partiers, on the other hand, appear to be totally monolithic. They dip and swirl in perfect unison like a school of fish.

It's kind of sad, really. Your uniformity depresses me.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, Bart.

shrinkers said...

@filistro
Liberals are strong, independent thinkers and frequenlty argue among themselves.

No we don't. How dare you? I dispute that comment.

Actually, I often even argue among myself.

I think that's kind of a symptom of being a progressive -- the ability to see many sides of an issue. It is both our strength and our weakness. It allows us to be inventive and open to new possibilities -- but it can also be paralyzing when trying to reach agreement or, worse, consensus.

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong...

Pragmatus said...

A few things to consider—

If Walker is complaining about the bill, then it has to be good. Walker is one of those super-religious people who take to heart New Improved Right-Wing Jesus’s message about loving all [private health insurers] as oneself. So if Walker is predicting doom and gloom based on the bill currently before the Senate, then there has to be something in it that will benefit the folks the New Improved Right-Wing Jesus had nothing but disdain for—the poor.

It remains to be seen whether the expansion of Medicare is sufficient to provide a true “option to the public option”. Since most progressives (moi included) think that single-payer is the only truly sensible method for reforming the mess we currently have, perhaps this is a step toward that ultimate accomplishment.

Lastly, it remains to be seen if there are enough votes to pass even this compromise. Remember that the GOP wants no reform of health insurance whatsoever, and it would not surprise me to find them shooting even this proposal down. If that happens, I say rewrite the bill to include a public option, and everything else the GOP is scornful of, then use the nuclear option to ram it through. Sometimes when obstructionists won’t budge you have to take a bulldozer to them.

filistro said...

shrinkers... I disagree that you're wrong. In fact, I insist that you're right. If we put it to a vote, I will block your view of your own wrongness with my vote for your rightness, and force you to win. That'll teach you to be right, dammit!

Meanwhile that well-known folk group, "Bart and the Teabaggers" are all holding hands and singing,

I love you
You love me
We're a happy family...

Jacob said...

Blogger Pragmatus said...

"Remember that the GOP wants no reform of health insurance whatsoever."


That's not fair Pragmatus! The GOP has clearly stated their HCR stance:

1) Don't let states regulate insurance compaines.

2) Tax union workers' benefits.

3) Protect negligent HC providers from liability for their actions.

:)

Mr. Universe said...

@shma

Yeah I kinda imagine that scene from 'Mulholland Falls" where the goons take William Petersen for a little ride, rough him up, and throw him over Mulholland Drive.

I'd like Hairy Reed and Co. to take Joe for a little ride, explain how things are gonna be, strip him of the chairmanships and finally dump him on the door step of the RNC HQ.

Jacob said...

"That'll teach you to be right, dammit!"


Avraham: "He's right and he's right. They can't both be right."

Tevye: "You know something? You are also right."

Mr. Universe said...
This post has been removed by the author.
shma said...

Unfortunately I haven't seen Mulholland Falls, but I have seen LA Confidential, and I'd love to sick Russell Crowe on his ass.

The character he plays in the movie would work, too.

Pragmatus said...

Jacob…

As Pat Paulsen used to say so eloquently, picky, picky, picky.

:o) :o) :o)

Ron Smith said...

I wish loud wordy democrats would get over it.
This administration is about independents who they would lose if they got too far left.
What we will get next year is, "the democrats fixed health care".
We will have won them over before the elections.
That and only that is the important part right now. We can't get our nose under the tent unless the indies lift the canvas. Once the do, fat city!

shma said...

Ron Smith

Well, that's certainly an optimistic take, but various polls over the last six months show that Democrats will probably lose ground in the House and possibly in the Senate.

So it doesn't look like this appeal to 'independents' is going to pay off.

filistro said...

shma... I think Ron may just be right. The whole outlook on this issue might well look very different in a few months' time.

I've been trying to recall the last time the left flank was this ticked off and at odds over something "within the family" and how it ultimately worked out.

Can anyone think of a corollary?

Pragmatus said...

shma…

Remember that all such polling takes into account Raspublican’s ridiculous results, and is therefore always skewed in an unrealistically GOP direction. There was a great article linked here a few days ago on the subject.

So besides it’s being too early for polls for 2010 outcomes to be meaningful, the results we do have contain a poison pill courtesy of the Bart De Palma’s favorite “pollster”.

shrinkers said...

Pragmatus --

Comedy gold. Pat Paulson is one of my favorites. He was ahead of his time. I think Eric Cantor is channeling him these days.

shrinkers said...

filistro, if you're going to insist on agreeing with me, I'll just have to cave in. It's the only way I can prove I'm right about being wrong.

shma said...

filistro...

I'm not sure that the problem is with the left, exactly. The Democrats bet that the number of independents they could win was more than the number of progressives who would stay home, so they are clearly expecting to lose some of that vote. But it's a lot easier to lose that enthusiasm than it is to win over independents, and turnout is everything. Their strategy for the past year was to focus on pleasing independents, so they better be willing to go all the way now.

We'll see. All I'm saying is that Ron's being a tad optimistic considering the available evidence.

Prag

One thing Rasmussen is right about when he talks about his poll bias, his trends are no different than other pollsters. So while I agree his numbers skew Republican, the long term trend against Democrats is echoed in every other pollster's results as well. That worries me more than any individual numbers or any particular pollster.

But like I said, this is just the available evidence. There may be a turnaround later on.

Bart DePalma said...

filistro said...

Liberals are strong, independent thinkers and frequenlty argue among themselves. You witness it here all the time.

Really?

1) Who here does not support single payer government health insurance?

2) Who here does not believe in the hypothesis of manmade global warming?

3) Who here does not support either a carbon tax or a cap and tax regime to address MGW?

4) Who here did not support the Stimulus Bill?

5) Who here does not believe that the Stimulus Bill created or saved hundreds of thousands of jobs?

6) Who here did not support the nationalization of GM and Chrysler?

7) Who here did not support Obama's setting compensation at banks?

8) Who here does not believe that the nation's civil marriage law should include same sex marriage?

9) Who here does not believe that a woman should have the right to abort her children?

10) Who here does not agree that all progressives/liberals "are strong, independent thinkers?"

11) Who here does not agree "Tea Partiers, on the other hand, appear to be totally monolithic." even though I am almost certainly the only one you know.

***

From the Life of Brian:

BRIAN: Good morning.

FOLLOWERS: A blessing! A blessing! A blessing!...

BRIAN: No. No, please! Please! Please listen. I've got one or two things to say.

FOLLOWERS: Tell us. Tell us both of them.

BRIAN: Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!

FOLLOWERS: Yes, we're all individuals!

BRIAN: You're all different!

FOLLOWERS: Yes, we are all different!

DENNIS: I'm not.

ARTHUR: Shhhh.

FOLLOWERS: Shh. Shhhh. Shhh.

BRIAN: You've all got to work it out for yourselves!

FOLLOWERS: Yes! We've got to work it out for ourselves!

BRIAN: Exactly!

FOLLOWERS: Tell us more!

BRIAN: No! That's the point! Don't let anyone tell you what to do! Otherwise-- Ow! No!

Ron Smith said...

we do not live in a political democracy
we live in a political plurality.
Let's give up on "Reagan Democrats" and so forth and realize that if 40% vote democratic and 40% vote republican it means that the plurality, not the majority, of Americans run the country.

yes, the pubs bring out their base (sometimes) and maybe demos can do it too (sometimes). But is seem that virtually all of this reality is danced around in the political blogs.

Obama is very smart... very very smart. He wants the "majority" of the plurality and he is going about it in a way that wins in the long run.

As an aside, since there are so many math-dudes here, why doesn't someone model what I am speaking of?

Exactly how much of your base can you abandon to win the middle?
What happens when the base doesnt show up but the middle does?

My feeling is Obama will have his "base" when he needs them as will the pubs. But I think the indies will keep him in office... not idealism

shrinkers said...

I'll address a couple of your points, Bart.

4) Who here did not support the Stimulus Bill?

I don't. It had far too many concessions to the Republicans.

6) Who here did not support the nationalization of GM and Chrysler?

Hard to say, because these companies were not "nationalized". Your propagandistic wording of this question betrays a willingness to misrepresent the facts of the real world.

7) Who here did not support Obama's setting compensation at banks?

Again, hard to say, because he has not set compensation at banks. Again, your wording of this question betrays a willingness to misrepresent the facts of the real world.

8) Who here does not believe that the nation's civil marriage law should include same sex marriage?

I don't think it should. I think there should be no national civil marriage law. I do believe, however, that state laws should not discriminate.

9) Who here does not believe that a woman should have the right to abort her children?

I don't. Aborting fetuses, however, is, and should be, legal. "Children" are what you get after a birth.

Your rhetoric, simply on these questions, shows that you have bought into the right wing groupthink. Thanks for the example thereof.

filistro said...

Bart... you posed 11 questions. I can recall (and so can you, if you're honest) lively and often passionate debates at this site among liberals over every single one of these issues.

If you can direct me to any right-wing sites where policy issues are being argued with equal vigor, I would be grateful. Because I spend a lot of time researching right-wing sites and almost never see anything there but the most basic groupthink.

They don't call you folks "dittoheads" for nothing.

Jacob said...

@Bart

LOL on the LOB quotes. All time classic movie.

Yes, people of any political persuasion can engage in groupthink, but let's try to imagine why most (I think if you knew any progressives you would find not all) progressives would support or oppose those cherry-picked items.

Obviously I can't speak for all Progressives, but here's my take:

1) USP has been in general the simplest and most cost-effective way to guarantee universal health coverage with a wide range of choices. It's not the only good option (UK, Germany come to mind), and of course it's not perfect, nor does it work if universality affordability and choice are not your goals, but if they are, it's just a good effective plan.

2) Yes most of us believe in the evidence of Anthropogenic Global Warming. Not just that, but virtually all progressives believe that globe is round and has existed for billions of years! This reality stems from our belief in the validity of the scientific method.

3) Well I guess I would be OK with forcing industries to cut emissions if it came to that, but that would have too many drawbacks. Of course C&T isn't perfect, but it's a moderate market-based approach that could help address a serious problem. Progressives don't universally love it, but it's better than nothing and disrupts everyone's lifestyle less than other ideas.

4) And as we know the economy needs stimulus in a recession. Of course the stimulus bill wasn't good enough, but better than nothing.

5) Well "hundreds of thousands" seems reasonable, but who can be sure? Obviously there are more jobs thanks to that money being spent, but I'll give you this one. I don't agree that the stimulus did enough, or at least it hasn't yet. Next time the government shouldn't piss away so much debt on tax cuts.

6) Hmm, you know I was not thrilled with the temporary nationalization, or with the UAW getting such a large share of Chrysler (a union cannot effectively represent its members if it has to take on the concerns of management--that's why they bargain). But it's better than letting those companies go under and losing every single job. Support, maybe (and as temporarily as feasibly possible), but out of necessity rather than with elation as you seem to assume. This is a case of the better of two bad options.

7) You know I'm kinda iffy on that, and leaning toward opposing it. For the future, bank compensation needs to be drastically altered by the industry (or with regulatory encouragement), but I think abridging existing contracts sets a very bad precedent.

8) Yes I am proud to believe in marriage equality. But marriage is the civil law of states, Bart. I would love to see a reversal of the Defense Against Marriage Act though, which would reinstate the common interpretation of the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution. So I believe that governments (ideally) should not be able to ban marriages based on race, gender, economic status, etc.

9) Yes I am pro choice. I have several progressive friends who are pro-life (some of whom are pro-choice as well and some of whom are anti-choice). Frankly I can see why people would take the anti-choice or pro-life stance. A lot of validity on both sides.

10) Oy vey. Of course not, no one group is composed entirely of "strong independent thinkers," not even MENSA and certainly not the Democratic Party. But we are a fractious party with many many different opinions on virtually every issue.

11) I don't know if all teabaggers believe the same thing. I do know that many I've come across tend to be horribly uninformed (i.e. Obama born in Kenya, AGW is a conspiracy, the Democrats are socialists) and many spout outright spoonfed lies. Honestly, I doubt this represents the entire movement, though certainly it represents the most vocal elements. Just as no group is entirely composed of independent thinkers, none is composed entirely of brain-dead morons.

Jacob said...

So there you go Bart, one Progressive's take, that agrees with 8 of those points to a certain degree. I'm sure many others have different reasons for supporting/opposing others. Hope that answers your questions about "groupthink."


(sorry exceeded character limit)

yoink said...

Pointless Pretentious Pseudoprofundities--you might like to look at what Politifact has to say about Obama's "campaign promise" of a Public Option.

Yes, if he mentioned it in passing a couple of times during the campaign. No, it was never remotely central to the campaign, nor was there any widespread discussion of the idea during the campaign among Obama's supporters.

The public option only became desperately important to the left during the political debate as the bill moved through Congress. In fact, it was only the vehement opposition to the Public Option from the right which made the left decide it must be doubleplusgood if it pissed off the Right so much.

It's simply fantasy to suggest that "President Obama actively campaigned on a health care plan with a strong public option." His campaign statements about the public option are so vague (and were so little elaborated upon) that the version of the public option proposed under the terms of the Senate compromise agreement would easily qualify.

shma said...

"As an aside, since there are so many math-dudes here, why doesn't someone model what I am speaking of?"

Well, you're speaking in a vague, poetic manner that makes it unclear exactly what you're trying to say.

Try and articulate it clearly and simply. I'm not sure what "He wants the "majority" of the plurality" is supposed to mean other than "he wants more than half of the vote total that the leading candidate gets", which is what that sentence means literally.

If you are talking about a math-based justification for a strategy that focuses on winning the independents and assuming the base will turn out, you should probably look here.

shma said...

"In fact, it was only the vehement opposition to the Public Option from the right which made the left decide it must be doubleplusgood if it pissed off the Right so much."

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that it's good policy with a proven track record, or that a solid majority of the American people want it. It's all about pissing people off.

I think you reveal your own mindset when you offer these "explanations" for support of the PO.

shrinkers said...

My own support of the PO was simply that it is a compromise -- single payer is far better, but was not allowed to be on the table, because the insurance lobby is far too powerful. The PO offered a way to help make insurance companies become a little more honest.

If the Senate bill provides an alternative which can serve that purpose, that's fine with me. Especially since it creates a precedent to take further steps in that direction.

Ron Smith said...

"Well, you're speaking in a vague, poetic manner that makes it unclear exactly what you're trying to say."

This reminds me of the Bush Gore debate. When Gore was sayiing we should take the budget surplus and "put it in a lock box".
W says, "that's fuzzy math".
Gore missed the opportunity to win that debate by simply responding, "no sir, it's fuzzy comprehension"

Read: I cant do anything about what you can't understand.

shma said...

Well, I guess if you can't articulate yourself more clearly than you did in that muddled post, I can't really help you.

Robert said...

Just for fun:

2) Who here does not believe in the hypothesis of manmade global warming?

I don't 'believe' it's a 'hypothesis'. I know it's an yet-to-be-disproven scientific theory.

3) Who here does not support either a carbon tax or a cap and tax regime to address MGW?

I support those things to deal with the transition off limited supply fuels (AKA fossil fuels) onto efficiently renewable supply fuels. If it was up to me, the solutions to address mans contribution to global climate change would be far more extreme.

4) Who here did not support the Stimulus Bill?

As shrinkers said, too many concessions to republicans.

6) Who here did not support the nationalization of GM and Chrysler?

I am disappointed that this is not what actually happened.

8) Who here does not believe that the nation's civil marriage law should include same sex marriage?

Should? It's a solution that would be ok to me, but should is stronger than I would support. I think there's other valid solutions that this does not describe.

9) Who here does not believe that a woman should have the right to abort her children?

I don't think anyone should have the right abort a child. Fetuses are a different story.

10) Who here does not agree that all progressives/liberals "are strong, independent thinkers?"

There's idiots on both sides of the spectrum, our side isn't immune.

11) Who here does not agree "Tea Partiers, on the other hand, appear to be totally monolithic." even though I am almost certainly the only one you know.

I disagree that you are the only one I know. I don't know you. You might just think its funny to pretend to be a tea partier, and I'd never know that either. As far as other tea partiers go, the only things I think they are monolithic on are idiocy and ignorance. I'm sure there's plenty of variation in how those things manifest from person to person.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

"Remember men...

we ALL believe in lower taxes...

...oppose abortion

...fear minorities

...hate health care

...think Obama is evil

...and Muslims are bad

...deny global warming

...love war

...and adore Dick Cheney

BDP, replies blah, blah, blah as per usual ...

Seriously, go to a local Tea Party meeting ...
~~~~~~~~~~


Non-logical rationalizations and irrelevant feigning credulity winger, teabagger anecdotes is a laughable attempt at political argument, especially coming from someone w/your already shredded 538 credibility.

As re: to your involvement in the teabagger movement and meetings, suspect no one here believes you have anything to do w/them given conservatives historical non-involvement in political protest as your 24/7 anti-Obama blog and the internet in general probably keep one pretty busy, eh.

As Texans say: All Hat and No Cattle! as you continue to phone it in w/inane anecdotes and ad nauseam spin ...

take care

btw, I'd have to be standing beside you at a teabagger gathering, oh the horror ;) to consider your involvement in said movement and still I'd have serious doubts. ;)

Bart the teabagger, hmm, did I mention feigned credulity!

jack said...

Most Progressives I know support a strong, widely and quickly available public option because it less-easily-gamed way to bring down health care costs for most everybody and provide near-universal coverage. Other well designed plans for health care reform that lack a public option can also accomplish those ends. The House plan seems to me to accomplish most of those goals. The Senate plan is not yet determined, but all the signs point to "none of the above". The 55-65 Medicare option is great if it is made widely available--- and all the signs are that will NOT be the case. Unless the benefits of "reform" obviously cut health care costs for most non-wealthy (<~$150,000 annual income) citizens and make affordable health care available to most of the currently uninsured/uninsurable by next November, my assessment is that the Democrats will gain little politically --- and will suffer politically if health care costs go up shortly after passage. A projected future decrease in health care costs beginning 5 years hence won't cut it. "Insurance reform" by itself won't cut it. If your policy (presumably) cant be revoked for prior condition, that future possible benefit is a bit of a plus. However, if any such future possible insurance reform benefits are accompanied by an immediate increase in cost or co-payments, most voters will almost always vote according to their pocketbook. My fear is that the final bill "passed because Democrats must pass something" will have those immediate negative consequences.

Paul said...

I'm ashamed to have been tricked into voting for these self-destructive loser democrats.

It may not make a political difference, but I'm going back to voting for non-major party candidates. Neither major party deserves support now.

mattgersz said...

There still is a viable and sizable moderate portion of Congress and the nation's voters, even if the ever-hardening ideologues on the Right and Left don't want to acknowledge it. And as they do on much legislation, the middle is pretty much the group that's prevailing on the Health Care bill. The bill IS a victory for progressives, but as usual, the Liberals overreached and put all their eggs into the Public Option as if it were the second coming of Christ. Now, those Liberals who didn't get everything they wanted, and the GOP's who wanted us to have NO reform have something in common -- they will both claim that the final bill is terrible. Well, Nate called BS and he's right. It's a better-than-decent bill, and if it passes, Democrats in Congress will have shown they can help pass a Progressive agenda, even if the detractors view it as Progressive-lite. If this reform actually does some good, and the political center shifts subtly to the left (that'll happen only if the Economy gets fixed, and soon), health reform could be improved a couple of Congresses down the road. Yeah, it's slow progress, but it is progress.

Nelson said...

I have to agree with Nate on a lot of things, but I also have to compare what this President did compared to what his Democratic predecessor did in 1994.

President Clinton and Hillary Rodham Clinton put forth a bill that was actually weaker than the current version. There was absolutely no talk of a public option and I don't remember any talk of a serious expansion of Medicare.

When I heard that the public option would be dropped for an expansion of Medicare, my jaw dropped. On top of the Franken amendment, this is a BIG deal. This is the first step towards single payer.

Remember SCHIP? Well, recently the President signed into law an expansion of SCHIP. It has proven to be effective. I truly believe that this will happen with the current health care bill. I know 4 people who have had help from Medicare over the past 4 years. It works and it works well. Gov. Dean said that we will see people saved by this expansion this year. That's real progress.

This is definitely, like mattgersz wrote, Progressive-lite, but it is Progressive. This is democracy, folks. This is not a dictatorship. The President made the right moves by not trying make the Senate do his bidding. That's what killed the health plan the Clintons put forward in 1994. They said "Our way or the highway" and they lost the Senate. The following year, they got killed. The President has other stuff to deal with down the road, like the jobs plan. He needs the Senate to get this done. A win here will go a long way.

"I always look long first." Jim McMahon.

Knoxville said...

On 2b), A health care bill without a public option is, frankly, bullshit.

Without creating some kind of option for health care coverage other than the 'products' of private insurers looking to rake in profits, it isn’t real reform.

On 7) Democrats' failure to lead on health care reform has created a stiff political headwind for months now, one that they're too incompetent and weak to reverse.

Take a look at this post at Circleparkforum.com, which evaluates polls that came out yesterday and today and argues that the Democrats created their own mess by failing to lead.

In addition to those recent polls showing that the popularity gap between the two parties has been erased and that support for a public option remains strong despite the Dems' failure to lead, Nate must also be aware of several polls that show the Dem base very much unenthusiastic about going out to vote next time around.

To even imply that the Dems have been courageous as they failed to lead and created such a huge mess is a little insulting to your readers and their intelligence.

Speaking of courage, when writing about health care reform, Nate seems to try hard to steer middle ground at all times in order to appear unbiased.

Not sure I'd call that courageous.

'Politics done right' isn't done in the abstract.

Knoxville said...

Nelson wrote: "When I heard that the public option would be dropped for an expansion of Medicare, my jaw dropped. On top of the Franken amendment, this is a BIG deal. This is the first step towards single payer."

If Medicare were going to be made available to all Americans 55+ as an option in this latest plan, I would agree with you. But to the vast majority of Americans 55+ it won't be made available, not in this plan, so I don't.

~~~~~

Nelson wrote: It is Progressive.

It is not Progressive.

~~~~~

Nelson wrote: This is democracy, folks. This is not a dictatorship.

More and more, we're descending into an unchecked plutocracy. There's no other explanation for the Dems' total failure than that far too many of them are bought and paid for.

In a democracy, leaders put the interests of people first, not the self-interests of a small minority of wealthy a.$.$.holes.

DCM in FL said...

'Politics Done Right' is also just a really poor tagline...

Nate should come up with a better one

IIRC, he used 'Projections Done Right' or something similar when he first started this site

but the morph to POLITICS doesn't work imho

maybe 'Political Analysis Over Easy'...

how about a contest to create a better marketing tagline ???

Jamison said...

Well said, Nate. Although I politely disagree about #6: I think the WH's relative silence on the PO issue was not due to ineptness, but was due to a conscious strategy.

One part of it is learning (or perhaps over-learning) the lessons from the last War - instead of handing the Senate a Hillary-written fiat, step back and let the legislators legislate.

The other part is that Obama signaled pretty early on (especially while Baucus and Conrad were flailing around for six months) that they were prepared to declare victory no matter what came out of the Congress. This forced the GOPers to take a maximalist anti-reform stance as the Party of No. The piddling counter-proposal for reform that they did come up with was little more than a plate full of Grover Norquist's leavings.

The only thing left is to sell it to the base. I suspect that the low numbers for Dems in 2010 comes from PUMAs and Rad-Libs concern-trolling via the pollsters, just like they did in 2008. I strongly suspect that they'll come home, just like they did in 2008.

DCM in FL said...

KNOXVILLE

correct call on MediCare expansion

it sounds GREAT - BUT the caveat that it will NOT be open & available to all 55+ is a big onus...

and now tonight word comes out that this proposed 'expansion' is in trouble because hospitals & the AMA are pushing back

also, it will NOT 'open' immediately - no one knows yet even when or how

devils in those details

but the concept of MediCare expansion is a good one imho

and once a demo has it, they will not want to give it up

DCM in FL said...

the vast majority of citizens have no idea what 'the public option' is & could not define it if asked [or given a multiple choice'

the 'fact' that it consistently polls so high even when HCR polls relatively lower seem to confound the punditry...

but most folks do support better access to health care - they just have no concept of how to get there

terms like Universal health care & Single-payer seem to confuse the low-info

a fully-funded Medicare for All is the simplest way to sell it - and actually I believe that is what the country really wants

everyone knows seniors who love their Medicare [I know many here in FL]

Nelson said...

Knoxville,

The public option being proposed is a weak option. It has no real pricing power. Medicare does.

Howard Dean has also said that this is reform. It is not perfect, but it is a good step forward. He's a progressive and knows a lot more about this than most folks.

I would agree, somewhat, that we do need to see how many 55+ folks will be covered. Let's wait and see what is unveiled. Neither of us knows what the details are. I still think that any enhancement of Medicare is great. This is what a lot of liberals wanted from the beginning. It's not everything we wanted, but it's a start. Once you open the door...

Finally, the Franken amendment needs more ink. The increase in payments to hospitals will help them in their troubles. A lot of hospitals are falling short of funds because HMOs are not paying enough. You have to agree with me here, Al Franken is a liberal. He is also leading here.

The biggest fault of all lies with us. We need to show up in more places, not just in the blogs. You get the government you show up for. I am guilty of this as well. I am going to try to show up to forums with my representatives. We all need to do more of that. Let's not leave the screaming to the tea partiers.

As for leadership, look at Sen. Franken. This amendment of his is a smart move. I like it. Wendell Potter likes it (check out his post on this on HuffPo) and that is good enough for me. This looks like it will make it to the final bill.

I know that we might not be getting what we wanted, but it's like the Stones said,sing it with me now...

You can't always get what you want...

You can't always get what you want...

You can't always get what you want...

But if you try sometimes, you might find, you get what you need.

Geneva Mike said...

Why can't the Dems pass the bill in the best form they can get WITHOUT the public option, sign it, pat themselves on the back at how "historic" they are... THEN come back and add in a public option, using reconciliation if necessary?

william said...

As a European, I can say that not even the most right wing or conservative party here would ever dream of cutting back health care. It's remarkable that there is popular support for LESS health care, but once this bill passes, in whatever shape or form, it will never be toned down later, every reform that follows will be towards more health care. Once people have it, they will never be willing to part with it. And frankly the current system is just not humane and unbefitting of the wealth of the nation. If a state CAN take care of the health of it's population, it should. Me (creative freelancer with a 60 euros per year insurance on top of the default state one, which I pay taxes for), nor anyone I know has ever had to worry about the finacial side of heatlh problems. When there ARE people who have financial problems, it is news worthy because it's so exceptional.

Tony C. said...

Political Incompetence At Best.

Sociopathic corruption at worst. The Democrats had everything they needed to shove anything they wanted down the throats of the Republicans, and instead they shoveled us this pile of shit instead.

They could have pass a single-payer Medicare-by-premium for all that wanted it system.

The fact that they did not speaks to the fact that too many of them did not want to pass anything at all, most probably because they are in the pockets of the corporate sociopaths that are sentencing American citizens to death by the thousands to boost their bottom line.

This is an inhuman system, and the people at the top of it are murderers, plain and simple, breaking contracts and slow-paying and denying coverage they promised to give all so they can make millions every year. They are parasites on humanity, and the politicians that take their money have shown themselves to be the same, corrupt and evil bastards without a shred of conscience, laughing it up on the golf course about how they have sentenced their constituents to misery and death.

George In Florida said...

I'm suprised by the comments about the "Filubuster Proof Majority."

What has happened in the last few months is a debate among the Dems about what the Dems want. No, the far left of the party did not get everything they want. But the Reps got hardly of anything they want. Given Lieberman's comments lately, it looks like he will vote for cloture.

When all is said and done, the cloture vote will probably get all of the 58 Dems (and 2 Indies), but either 0 or 1 Rep vote.

Sounds like a filibuster proof majority to me.

Bart DePalma said...

Opposition to Obamacare legislation keeps mounting. CNN asked adults, not voters, whether they supported the Senate Obamacare bill - 61% NO, 36% Yes. 75% believe Obamacare will not help them, but 79% believe correctly that it will increase the deficit and 85% believe that it will raise their taxes.

Support is now down to the Dem base and falling.

Has legislation with this much public opposition ever passed Congress anytime in history?

Daigaku said...

holy shit that was just about the stupid pile of bullshit i've ever read.

and i've heard a lot of bullshit from DLC shills lately.

the bill is terrible. i'm sorry. rewarding people that would never vote for you, would never support anything you do by alienating the people that elected you is shooting yourself in the foot.

fuck this bill. fuck the democrats. fuck bush III. fuck every apologist for this shit bill that tries convince people that know better that this bill is anything but a political and moral failure.

Daigaku said...

yes passing something is better than passing nothing at all.

*passes a give away to big insurance, screws the young, does nothing to lower costs*

well lets hope the base is deaf, dumb, blind and somehow don't need medical care.

Jacob said...

Expansion of Medicare to age 55 and SCHIP for all children is a good start--that basically means you're fine the first quarter of your life, fine the last quarter or so, and the 37 years in between are questionable. Now it's a matter of closing that gap with future bills.

Bart DePalma said...

Jacob said...

Expansion of Medicare to age 55 and SCHIP for all children is a good start--that basically means you're fine the first quarter of your life, fine the last quarter or so, and the 37 years in between are questionable. Now it's a matter of closing that gap with future bills.

This "compromise" was a significant victory for advocates of single payer.

1. How do you plan to pay for all of this?

Do not tell me that the kids on S-Chip and the middle aged folks being added to Medicare are going to pay their own way? The kids are completely on the federal dime and Medicare spends about 8 grand per recipient. Who is going to pay 8 grand a year for Medicare?

2. Where are you going to find doctors who will take these new Medicare recipients when Medicare does not pay the full tab for the treatment?

yoink said...

shma writes:

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that it's good policy with a proven track record,

Name a single country in the world that has anything remotely like the proposed "public option" operating within an insurance exchange as envisaged in the House bill. A single one.

This is an utterly untried policy. We have nothing but theoretical projections to predict how well it would work relative to an Insurance Exchange sans "public option."

shiloh said...

Has legislation with this much public opposition ever passed Congress anytime in history?

Setting aside the spin, the better question ~ What is the right thing to do? and what is the cost if we do nothing?

and BDP, why do you hate your fellow Americans and America?

and since you have no children, why do you even care?

Oh OK, one has a 24/7 negative agenda because he only thinks of himself.

how sad!

Again, like Limbaugh, doesn't one ever get tired of spin and misinformation er carrying the water for the party of No!

just a few more questions for everyone to ponder ...

Rep plan: Don't get sick and if you do get sick, die quickly! as BDP goes looking for more polls to post.

shrinkers said...

DCM in FL
correct call on MediCare expansion
it sounds GREAT - BUT the caveat that it will NOT be open & available to all 55+ is a big onus...


and @Jacob
Expansion of Medicare to age 55 and SCHIP for all children is a good start--that basically means you're fine the first quarter of your life, fine the last quarter or so, and the 37 years in between are questionable. Now it's a matter of closing that gap with future bills.

This is an excellent example of why an imperfect bill is far better than no bill at all -- of of why thinking long-term beats emotional lines in the sand.

Once these changes are in place, we can come back later and improve them. Once people 55-64 see the benefits of allowing some of their peers to have Medicare, they'll insist on it for themselves, and the restrictions will be lifted -- mark my words, in a few years anyone 55-64 will be able to buy into Medicare, regardless of whether they're already getting insurance from work.

And then, those younger than 55 will want it. And then, once a significant percentage of the public is using it, we'll switch from "buying in" to allowing an "opt out" (for those people who really want to throw money into a private insurance sinkhole) and convert "Medicare premiums" to "payroll taxes".

If we had tried to get Medicare for All this year, it would never have gone anywhere. It would have died quicker than Clinton's attempt at reform did. But this way, we've got a chance to achieve it.

Bart asked:
Who is going to pay 8 grand a year for Medicare?

I would gladly LOWER my current insurance premium to 8 grand / year. Especially if it means I get Medicare.

yoink said...

Re the timeline on the "public option" becoming a sacred cow to the liberal left. Here are a few interesting data points.

Here's a link to one of the first major discussions of health care reform on this site--back in March of this year. The phrase "public option" occurs nowhere in the discussion. The warning that Obama intends to work within the framework of the private insurance system is plainly stated (and this is back in the heady early days of the administration, when people were speculating about the Dems picking up extra senate seats in 2010!). There simply was no general assumption at that time that the overall goal was to install a single-payer system or that a "public option" was central to the Democrats plans.

The very first healthcare post I could find that includes a reference to the public option is from June. Half a year into the Obama presidency.

It simply was not the case that people voted for Obama on the understanding that he was leading the charge for health care reform built around the concept of the "public option."

Daigaku said...

haha no this isn't some incremental victory. if the electorate is stupid enough to accept the dems "efforts" as satisfacctory this time, there will be no further progress. the republicans and the insurance lobby know full well how to make the dems roll over next time, and they will do the same thing next time, and if the dems remain spineless corporate whores, then all we will get is continued too-little-too-late half measures at best.

shrinkers said...

Thank you, yoink.

Yeah, the people who are complaining now, "But but but Obama promised us during the campaign that we'd get a public option! He campaigned on that promise!" -- the people screaming this either have no memory at all, or are transparent concern trolls. For the majority of them, my money's on the latter.

Now, he was opposed to mandates -- that was one of the disagreements he had with Hillary. But the President does not control congress (at least, presidents who respect our Constitution don't.) And if this is the bill that can get passed, then this is what we get. In a few years, perhaps those insurance premiums can be converted to Medicare payroll taxes. This may be a clever way to open that door.

Daigaku said...

also no , ppl 55-64 will not see any benefit to this, the biggest opponents of any healthcare expansion are 65+ hypocrites that receive medicare.

obama nor the dems are going to win those people over, while they are alienating the youth that got them elected with failure and fines.

the democrats can go fuck themselves.

yoink said...

@shrinkers,

Yes, he was opposed to mandates during the campaign. What's hilarious to me is that he was criticized from the left during the campaign for that stance; the same left that now criticizes him for accepting the mandates.

Back in the days of the campaign the left-wing position (which I agreed with) was that universal mandates were necessary to create a sufficiently large risk-pool to lower average per-consumer costs to an affordable level.

Don't believe me? Why, take a trip down memory lane with The American Prospect.

shrinkers said...

Another excellent point, yoink.

Americans not only have stupendously short memories -- they are also wildly impatient, and fond of drawing eternal lines in the sand (there's a reason that cliche' says "in the sand" -- sand shifts, you know).

But this will play in our favor, too. A year from now, this current uproar over "public option" will be forgotten. What people will remember is that Obama and the Democratic Congress got a Health Care Reform bill passed -- something that America has been wanting, but has been unable to do, for a century. We got it done. That's huge.

yoink said...

Shrinkers,

well, "we got it done" is still a touch premature. The whole thing could still come crashing down in any number of ways. But if we do get something like the current compromise through, it's more than I ever dreamed would be possible a year ago. Heck, during Obama's campaign, I never thought he'd have 60 even putative Democratic senators to work with. If this bill passes in something like the proposed form it's the biggest victory for the progressive agenda since LBJ's days. (Yeah, yeah, I know; LBJ would never have settled for half-assed measures like these, he would have passed Universal Health Care just by staring any recalcitrant senators down and threatening them with ritual disembowelment. He just didn't bother to because, er, um, ah--never mind that bit. Getting Universal Health Care through Congress is so simple any idiot child could do it! All you need to do is grit your teeth!).

filistro said...

shrinkers said: We got it done. That's huge.

Amen. It's so huge my mind can hardly fathom the enormity. And it's also so rare to see the Dems NOT squander a massive opportunity... I won't really breathe easy until this one is signed and sealed.

Then, immediately after the holidays we're going to see the Obama admin pivot instantly to jobs, and there will be a push like we've never seen, using leftover TARP funds to boost the economy. The push will coincide nicely with natural recovery so the pres can take credit for a rapidly improving economy. By next summer he will be the man who in just 18 months managed to put 2 million acres of wild land under federal protection, save the auto industry, pass a hate crime bill, save the banking system, pull the country back from economic disaster, reform health care, take charge of the Afghan war, change America's image abroad.. what am I missing? Dozens of things.

It's spectacular. The man will be invincible... and so will members of his party. All the petty ankle-biters are going to be SO last winter.

Oh how I love watching this happen!

Bart DePalma said...

BD: Has legislation with this much public opposition ever passed Congress anytime in history?

shiloh said...Setting aside the spin, the better question ~ What is the right thing to do?


To return to the first principles of liberty upon which this Republic was founded.

...and what is the cost if we do nothing?

Demonstrably, far less than under Obamacare.

...and BDP, why do you hate your fellow Americans and America?

I stand with the 61% of Americans who oppose the Obamacare legislation before the Congress. Perhaps, the better question is why you oppose the nearly 2-1 will of the People?

Bart DePalma said...

shrinkers said...

Bart asked: Who is going to pay 8 grand a year for Medicare?

I would gladly LOWER my current insurance premium to 8 grand / year. Especially if it means I get Medicare.


You do not pay 8 grand out of pocket for your health insurance. Stop lying.

filistro said...

Hey Bart... I'm still waiting for you to direct me to those websites where righties have lively in-house debates about policy issues.

I'm a diligent student of the right, and all I ever see them do is click their heels, salute smartly and fan out to liberal sites to disseminate the day's propaganda.

And all of it, including talking points, "facts", figures and polls, is so similar to the things you post here that I almost always know (practically word-for-word) what you're going to say even before I start reading what you've written.

What a shame, because I suspect that (if you could ever be weaned away from groupthink) you're probably a pretty bright guy.

Like I said, Bart... a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

yoink said...

filistro, what you say would be all very well if it weren't for the fact that Obama promised us Universal Healthcare based on a government single-payer system and also promised to immediately end the war in Afghanistan. I mean, I remember the very dream in which he appeared to me on a flaming pie and announced those things.

Otherwise he sounds pretty good, all things considered. But I can't abide someone who goes back on their firm promises!

filistro said...

yoink... it's all a bit unclear in my mind. Didn't he also promise free marijuana and 5-day weekends?

At any rate, I feel your pain. Watching this man shamelessly renege on his promises makes me feel (sniffle, wipe nose on sleeve) as betrayed as one of Tiger's mistresses.

Robert said...

yoink, you forgot about the flying cars that run on happy thoughts. I still want my happy-mobile.

Max said...

It's hilarious that people are saying there is no public option. Hello? Medicare is single payer, government run. It's a billion times more radical than anything democrats could have bargained for in a new program. The new bargaining power of adding the 55+ age group will cut costs tremendously. To me, this compromise is like a last minute hail Mary pass completion by democrats. It's genius. I wish more could see it.