Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: The Internet is Underrated: A Note on Activism, Populism and Polarization at the End of the 'Aughts

12.29.2009

The Internet is Underrated: A Note on Activism, Populism and Polarization at the End of the 'Aughts

Let me advance a proposition for you. It's going to be a controversial one. Ready?

The proposition is this: the Internet is really important!

OK, so I'm joking -- sort of. That tagline sounds so ... 2006. But I think people may nevertheless be overlooking the importance of the Internet in shaping the political landscape that we have today. In other words, a lot of the things that feel "new" about politics circa 2009 are in fact new, but have a lot more to do with information technology than is generally acknowledged.

Take, for example, the manifestations of quote-unquote extremism that we've seen recently on both the right and the left. To be somewhat reductionist here, perhaps the Tea Party movement, the Ron Paul movement, and the kill-bill movement qualify as the more benign, constructive forms of "extremism", and things like the birther "movement" or the PUMA "movement" the more destructive, virulent ones. There's a very alluring narrative to be had here -- one which the mainstream media finds particularly charming -- which is that The country is coming apart at the seams! The center is dying! The natives are restless! But is there actually much evidence of this?

Actually, the evidence is pretty mixed. We can look, for example, the General Social Survey, which has been conducted annually or biannually since 1972. One question on this survey, which has been posed in identical fashion since 1974, asks the respondent to identify their ideology on a 1 to 7 scale, where 1 means "extremely liberal" (that's the survey's terminology, not mine) and 7 means "extremely conservative".

In the last incarnation of the survey in 2008, only 2.9 percent of people termed themselves as "extremely liberal" while 3.9 percent described themselves as "extremely conservative". These numbers aren't really any different from the period between, say, 1974 and 1989, during which time 2.2 percent called themselves "extremely liberal" and 2.9 percent "extremely conservative".

We can also look at the standard deviation in these responses; the more polarized/ideological that the country is becoming, the higher this number should be:



If polarization has increased, it's been very, very marginal. The standard deviation of these responses on the 7-point scale was about 1.3 in the 1970s and is about 1.4 now. Americans have never liked to think of themselves as holding extreme viewpoints and that hasn't really changed.

Of course, what it means to be "extremely conservative" and "extremely liberal" is ambiguous -- and to some extent these terms are relative. My aunt and uncle, for instance, who are sort of old-school Olympia-Snowe-lovin' Rockefeller Republicans, would probably have happily defined themselves as "conservative" in the 1980s but would probably gravitate more toward the "moderate" label now -- because they don't like Sarah Palin or gay-bashing or the Tea Party movement and they think that's now what defines being "conservative". To their thinking, their viewpoint hasn't changed very much -- the world around them has.

However, more robust survey questions also do not show an increase in "extreme" ideologies. Take, for example, the Harris Poll, which since 1966 has calculated something called the "Alienation Index". The Alienation Index poses the following five questions to people, and then simply averages the number of people who respond affirmatively to each of them:

1. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
2. What you think doesn't count very much anymore.
3. Most people with power try to take advantage of people like yourself.
4. The people running the country don't really care what happens to you.
5. You're left out of things going on around you.
Although alienation is not precisely the same thing as "extremism", they measure in effect the same thing: the extent to which people feel disenfranchised by the mainstream. And it ought to be a relatively good measure of what might be thought of as "populist" sentiment, which has historically operated on a discourse of the powerful elite versus the disenfranchised masses; populism thrives on feelings of alienation.

But the Alienation Index has not increased, either over the near term or the medium term. In spite of all the trauma that the country went through during the 'aughts, it's actually a bit lower now than it during most of the 1980s and 1990s, although higher than it was during the pre-Watergate Era. The Alienation Index also decreased slightly from 2008 to 2009 (although alienation among Republicans increased, this was more than made up for by a decrease among Democrats). This year's survey was conducted rather recently -- back in November -- so it should fully incorporate all the Tea Party angst, etc.



We live in a complex world and I don't mean to oversimplify this too much. But it seems to me that, rather than a change in underlying sentiments -- that is, more prevalence of quote-unquote extreme, alienated, nonmainstream, populist, pox-on-both-their-houses viewpoints -- what has instead changed is that these viewpoints have become much more visible. And the reason has to do with technology -- to some extent cable news but to a much greater extent the Internet.

Take the Tea Parties, for example. Liberals don't give nearly enough credit to the technological sophistication of the Tea Partiers. Back in the old days -- you know, like 2005 or so -- getting several hundred people together at several hundred different locations would have required months of planning. But thanks to the Tea Partiers' ability to find one another on blogs, Twitter, Facebook, and so forth -- and to some extent the megaphone of Fox News -- these protests can come together fairly spontaneously. The left's use of the Internet has been much more heralded, but obviously has been exceptionally impressive too, particularly the extent to which the most listened-to people on the left (think Markos Moulitsas or Jane Hamsher) tend to come from nonpolitical backgrounds. Then there are things like the Ron Paul movement, which would have gotten absolutely no traction without the Internet.

(Of course, the Internet may also foster some of the less reality-based "nontraditional" viewpoints -- like birtherism, PUMAism, and probably Islamic extremism. Cass Sunstein has written several books on how, by allowing people to filter their news sources, the Internet may enable people to live in their own virtual bubbles.)

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the changes we're observing in the political discourse are illusory. Left, right, and "radical" center, activists really are getting together in ways that they couldn't have before, and really are shaping everything from the lead story on Hardball to the outcomes of entire elections. So too, their expectations are changing (i.e. increasing). This stuff is real, and both the Republicans and (somewhat astonishingly) the White House have often been caught flat-footed in trying to grapple with it.

What I am suggesting, however, is that the fact that "nonmainstream", "nontraditional" viewpoints are becoming more visible and more activated does not necessarily mean that they're becoming more prevalent. On the one hand, it's wonderful that the political discourse is becoming more democratized and less homogenized; that people other than traditional centrist party hacks are becoming empowered. On the other hand, there is probably some tendency to conflate the most extreme viewpoints with those of the respective party "bases", particularly since -- and I've been a partial exception to this rule -- the squeakiest wheel gets the TV booking. The left and right political blogospheres, the door-knocking activist community, and the base voters in each party are all separate and distinct things. They certainly overlap, but by less than you might think. For example, as much importance as the public option was assigned by online communities, it is regarded as one of the least important aspects of health care reform by Americans on average, and particularly by swing voters.

The Internet is still very, very new! Google didn't exist when Bill Clinton won his second term; now it's a $200 billion company, and pervades our day-to-day existence as much as any company has perhaps ever. Meanwhile, there's been very little in the way of what Tim Berners-Lee calls "Web Science" -- the systematic study of the Internet and its impact upon society. Not only did the Internet get a head start on us, but it's probably changing and expanding faster than our understanding of it is catching up.

What I'm saying, I suppose, is that if the Internet had come along 20 years earlier, the politics of 1989 might have borne a fairly strong resemblance to the politics of 2009. But since the Internet is in fact a relatively new invention -- still, really, in its nascent stages -- that doesn't help us to predict the way it might affect politics in the coming years. There's a tendency to neglect those things we don't understand and can't predict -- but there needs to be more awareness of the way that the Internet is impacting politics. The change we are seeing is perhaps principally a technological one.

158 comments

Terra said...

In general I think the internet radically changes one's views.

So for the people coming of age right now it has had a radical effect on their opinions. For most everyone else it is mainly a speakerphone.

The internet is like bringing a city or a college to every rural person.

Jay Blanc said...

Interestingly, the Internet Effect is somewhat more muted in the UK's election cycle. We've had almost no spontaneous Twitter organised protests, perhaps because we lack a true analogue to the Tea Partiers. The closest analogue being UKIP, who frankly haven't got to grips with traditional election campaigning yet.

We have however entered right into the effect of Bloggers uncovering a whole lot more fabrications in campaigning. With one Tory recently being caught out by the blog hoards for staging a photo with a "constituent" who was an employee. http://ukelectiontrend.blogspot.com/2009/12/ways-internet-has-changed-rules-of.html

Jay Blanc said...

ps. I'd love to know if you'll be doing coverage of the UK Election that will be some time in the next five months. Unlike you, I can't do a monte carlo simulation on a seat by seat basis to work out what the result will be. There are far too many seats, and too little regional polling. Best I can do is trend projection to make an estimate.

Henry said...

Terra-

The internet is like bringing all available opinions to one person, without guidance from a faculty member and without a filter. It allows one to find like minded individuals, no matter how extreme or crazy their point of view, leading to a codification of one's own view. It can be morte like the radicilization of a young Muslim or the affirming a child molester's view that he is "normal" as he finds like minded crazies in the world.

The internet has the ability to do great good by bringing divewrgent views to open minded people, but it al;so has the ability to do great evil as it brings like minded views to the already marginal.

I think the TeaParty and the FireDogLake problem is the latter, people want to believe that they are right and everyone is wrong, and they find internet communities to reinforce those views instead of using a truly open forum. That is why even liberals get attacked at the FireDogLake and sane conservatives cannot post at the GatewayPundit site. It also has the effect of making people who truly are extreme conservatives and extreme liberals think they are less radical than they are as they have found the small minority of like minded nuts to talk to daily.

Thus, O think the internet promotes extreeme views, but it does not make the people that hold them feel extreme, which is very dangerous.

DK Fennell said...

I'm not sure the point Harris is trying to make. Shouldn't "alienation" be measured by the difference between one's belief and reality? The statement "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" doesn't have to show alienation if (1) it can be demonstrated to be true; and (2) people believe it. And, by the way, ISN'T is true -- or at least for a decade or so? (Or am I just alienated.)

But even if the Harris survey measured something "real" (a dubious proposition in all things sociological), isn't it disturbing that the index now (regardless of what it has been over the last several years) is about twice as high as it was in the mid 60s? Or do we dismiss that because all those DFHs were doing drugs?

Boing said...

From the outside, one thing that seems clear is that the Republicans - I mean the actual politicians - have become more extreme. In behaviour, if not in ideology. The Democrats seem to have remained, by European lights, a centre-right party.

Jay's point is interesting. Given that our two main parties are almost indistinguishable ideologically - the main remaining difference is a lingering class affiliation - you might expect the internet to be a ferment of marginalised voices. it isn't, yet it is in the US, despite one of your two main parties being a genuine voice for loopy primitivists everywhere.

Jenny said...

Nate,

you forget talk radio still plays an important role in organizing local teabagger rallies.

It's hard to view the teabaggers as being internet oriented if only because of blog traffic.

Redstate is the leading interactive right wing blog and it's daily traffic averages 85,000 hits. That's one tenth of Dailykos.

Moreover, the day after Palin spoke at the republican convention, the GOP issued breathless news releases trumpeting the whopping $1,000,000 the raised online. The only problem: the polarizing palin triggered an avalanche of online donations to the Obama coffers, totaling in excess of $10,000,000 during the same time period. This is one of the reasons Steve Schmidt says palin's candidacy would be "catastrophic" to the GOP.

Jenny said...

*

LOL!

Teabaggers speak at a palin rally.

http://snipurl.com/twj1b

Not a single one knows of palin's socialist tax and spend record as governor.

Jenny said...

Terra said...

"In general I think the internet radically changes one's views.

"So for the people coming of age right now it has had a radical effect on their opinions. For most everyone else it is mainly a speakerphone.

"The internet is like bringing a city or a college to every rural person."

============================

I have a lot of trouble with this view because the most popular candidate among internet blogs in 2007/2008 was john edwards, yet the most popular candidate among young and first time voters was Obama.

Prentiss Riddle said...

While your basic thesis feels right to me, for reasons I don't understand I don't think the effect is symmetrical across the left and right.

Clearly Obama mobilized the center-vaguely-left via the Internet in a way that the center-right did not. Any further out from the center than that and it looks to me like the big bump in organization is mostly on the right (depending on how you define the Ron Paul movement and the 9-11 conspiracy movement, both of which cast doubt on the one-dimensional left-right political model). As someone who considered himself a pacifist in college, flirted with anarchism and "fellow travelled" with the democratic-socialist left, I don't see many signs of what I would have called the left being any more organized or visible now than they were in the 80's.

Where are the people you call "extremist" on the left? Code Pink or the Cindy Sheehan "movement"? Maybe, but are their rallies really bigger than their pre-Web predecessors'? Perhaps the WTO protests of 1999 fit the bill, but since they predated the rise of social media their available tools were cell phones, email and non-"social" websites. I'm not sure whether your point is meant to apply to the 90's Internet or not.

The wild card on the left which I can't account for was the astounding immigration protests of 2006. I'm sure that organizers made some use of the Internet but I don't know to what extent it was key; my recollection is that Spanish-language talk radio was the largest reported factor.

To sum up: I agree that the Internet is "important" in the way you describe but its importance doesn't appear to me to be uniform across the spectrum. I'd love to hear what others think about this.

John said...

Blah. None of the cited metrics remotely resembled the construct which you're commenting on, Nate. (In fairness, there probably doesn't exist good metrics for it.)

Rather than an empirically led thesis, this reads like a foregone conclusion with cherry-picked figures to back it up.

The reason I started coming to 538 was the empirically-based opinions (whether I agreed or not). Opinions loosely tied to "data" is not up to that standard, and in fact is quite the opposite.

=dcsohl said...

DK, no, alienation should not be measured by the difference between perception and reality.

Alienation is a feeling of being separated, isolated, or otherwise disconnected from things. If you feel that the rich just keep getting richer and the poor poorer, then, regardless of whether this is true, this is likely to cause a feeling of alienation. (Unless, of course, you are stinking rich, but you probably aren't.)

Perception is all that matters. Perception is what causes people to become alienated and radicalized. Reality, frankly, has almost nothing to do with this particular phenomenon.

Bart DePalma said...

Jenny said...

you forget talk radio still plays an important role in organizing local teabagger rallies.

It's hard to view the teabaggers as being internet oriented if only because of blog traffic. Redstate is the leading interactive right wing blog and it's daily traffic averages 85,000 hits. That's one tenth of Dailykos.


I am involved in the Tea Party movement and can speak to this from first hand knowledge.

The Tea Party movement does not organize through talk radio. Indeed, like much of the old media, talk radio is usually days behind the curve. We do use talk radio to offer commentary to a larger audience, but that is about it.

The Tea Party uses blogging primarily for commentary and secondarily for providing a static place to go to get information. The left dominates blogging. This is not the primary venue for Tea Party communications.

In reality, the Tea Party does most of its news dissemination and organizing on the social media - Facebook and Twitter. Conservatives dominate here.

Facebook is used to create enormous virtual local, regional and national Tea Party communities and coordinate demonstrations, communications with our representatives and other actions. Our local Tea Party techie - mom4freedom - has well over 100,000 following her reports.

Twitter is used to get news out immediately. This has proven to be an amazingly powerful tool. The Dem old media generally does not report on our issues and is days or weeks late if it does. Talk radio preps their shows the night before based largely on the Dem old media and somewhat on the righty blogosphere. Twitter allows us to bypass these gate keepers and get news out immediately so we can act within the opposition's decision cycle.

This is how we organized to get folks out to every town hall meeting this past fall before the Dems could respond by fleeing or trying to pack the hall with SEIU thugs.

It gets better. The Dems in our Colorado legislation attempted to secretly enact legislation to compel our presidential electors to follow the national election results rather than our own state results. An opposition GOP representative who works with the Tea Party movement tweeted the blow by blow action from inside the legislature and identified the representatives behind the legislation. Within literally minutes, the Dem representatives were flooded with calls demanding that they stop and there was a demonstration outside the legislature within a couple hours. The bill was pulled.

I strongly suspect this kind of instant reaction is why Pelosi and Reid kept their health insurance bills from Congress until the last minute on holidays. If these bills were subject to open debate for a couple weeks as is normal legislation, there would be a mass demonstration in DC before the vote followed by lines of pissed off Tea Partiers lined up outside the congressional office building to let their Congress critters know exactly how they felt in no uncertain terms.

This is much the same thing our brothers and sisters in the Iranian democracy movement are doing to oppose their autocratic regime.

I doubt the Tea Party movement would be possible in its present form without the internet. The internet is the most powerful grass roots political tool to come along since the printing press enabled the Revolutionaries to publish broadsheets to get out the news of the King's actions and the rebellion's responses.

John said...

Dont forget about how Twitter became one of the most important tools in Iranian Activism.

While the Tea Party is impressive in itselfs, its rather clunky compared to the Anonoymous war against Scientology.

Ultimately, the Tea Party protest where funded by grass roots campains and media personalities.


The Anonoymous protesters only needed Youtube and a wikipage.

Tony C. said...

Hopefully, tech leads to change.

As an extremely liberal computer scientist at a university, my hope is that technology develops to produce real change in politics.

Politicians (every candidate in 2008, plus Bill Clinton) failed to understand that every word they speak and public appearance they make is audio-taped and likely video-taped as well, without their knowledge, and will make it to YouTube. Hillary lied about "duck and run" and was exposed as a liar. Obama spoke about guns and religion. McCain got nailed by an off-the-cuff remark about solid economic fundamentals.

I am extremely liberal for logical reasons and conservatives are straight-up delusional, and I believe technological daylight will expose them to the truth about who benefits by exploiting their delusions, and how much, and how they are being conned and robbed and lied to by their supposed "leaders."

Sarah Palin is a corrupt pathological liar and everybody knows it, thanks to the Internet and YouTube and Google and the ability of both bloggers and reporters to research the past and find the evidence needed to convict her in the public mind.

There will always be the 20% willfully ignoring overwhelming evidence. We don't have to convince them of anything. What we need to do is educate the educable, because liberalism is in their best interest socially, financially, morally and commercially.

Liberalism is the antidote to corporatism, and conservatives are either the millionaire beneficiaries of coporate rule of America, or the poor souls conned by them with lies and forever unkept promises.

filistro said...

Nate's main point is interesting, that the Net isn't so much creating political extremes as it is finding them.... and bringing them together.

But I think his more interesting observation is the way the Net is exposing the extremes on both sides, and how they are so unattractive that(as Nate mentions) they are going to swell the ranks of independents who watch the winger antics on both sides and think, "Well, it may be my party, but that's just not me."

I wonder how this may impact voting patterns in years to come.

PoliticalWiz said...

@BDP
"The Dems in our Colorado legislation attempted to secretly enact legislation to compel our presidential electors to follow the national election results rather than our own state results."

Another allegation. Please provide:

1) The CO House/Senate bill number
2) The name(s) of all the sponsors

Without this additional information we WILL NOT accept your assertion as having ANY factual basis.

You have proven your inability to recognize the difference between your/the right wing's dreams and reality too many times in the past.

Thank you.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

HC69Grad said...

The Internet is enabling extremism by allowing extremists to find people with similar viewpoints more easily and by allowing them to remain anonymous. If one tracks comments on an extremist forum, one would find that the number of posters is usually small, but that the mutual reinforcement leads to greater extremism. On one hand, extremism is aided by greater unity, but on the other hand, the greater shrillness of the extremists will cause moderates to reject and even fear them. What seems to be lacking are forums that do not veer into extremism. Perhaps that can be attributed to the nature of moderates.

filistro said...

Another thing that fascinates me about the Net is the way the views of non-media people can filter upward and outward so quickly.

I've actually seen this happen in recent months, where we've had a discussion here and somebody (let's say Henry) makes an interesting point that nobody's thought about. Other commenters hash his post over from all angles over several days and reach a sort of consensus on it. A week later Nate goes on Hardball and makes mention of a discussion that's been taking place at his blog. And just like that... Henry's point gets into the ears and minds of millions of people.

This has never been possible before. It's really sort of marvelous when you think about it.

Jenny said...

In reality, the Tea Party does most of its news dissemination and organizing on the social media - Facebook and Twitter. Conservatives dominate here.

as usual, you have no stats/no evidence.

But I do.

Palin followers on twitter = 44,479.

Glenn Beck followers on twitter = 170,093.

President Obama followers on twitter = 2,957,617.

Rachel Maddow followers on twitter = 1,562,251.

btw, bart, how can you approve of Palin taxing oil and gas and directly redistributing corporate profits to every alaskan citizen? Her family alone received a $22,883 check from her socialist tax and spend alaska permanent fund policy.

cato-at-liberty.org/2008/08/29/palin-uninspiring-tax-policy-record/

PoliticalWiz said...

Thanks Jenny!

U may have noticed my using the same tactic.

I never mind divergent viewpoints. It would be rather boring without them.

But Bart's style of unfounded assertions is just plain boorish!

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

filistro said...

I wonder if, in years/decades to come, the Internet might begin moving us away from the centuries-old representation by geographic location.

Wouldn't it be fun if there were a few seats in the House representing the virtual communities, and various blog sites could run candidates?

I'd put shrinkers up any day against "Sarah Barracuda" from over at Freeperville ;-)

Hechicera said...

The internet has an effect, some. It helps disseminate information well. If you are trying to get it, it helps disseminate accurate information. If you want reassurance for your paranoid fantasies, it helps that too.

For the influential right sites, you aren't linking the two I hear from Tea Party friends.

www.wnd.com - favored by homeschoolers & military Tea Party / Constitutionalists
http://www.infowars.com/ - the conspiracy theory ones

Not that both aren't full of conspiracy theory. I find WND hilarious, yes, I read it. The format is:

Scary Article 1 on issue 1
Scary article 2 on issue 1
Ad for book/movie/magazine to tell you the "real facts and what you can do" about scary issue 1

Scary Article 1 on issue 2
Scary Article 2 on issue 2
Ad for book/movie/magazine to tell you the "real facts and what you can do" about scary issue 2

Scary article 1 on issue 3
(You can see where this goes).

Infowars presents itself as more in-depth news, paranoia. It's not nearly as funny.

You really have to get out there on the whole web. As others pointed out there are no filters, no analysis.

In scientific terms, you are missing the papers that do survey analysis and method analysis. When Nate isn't pontificating, he sometimes serves this role. Which is cool.

To really see the power of social media you need to look at Iran, from the inside. I've been doing some white hat comm support for that movement. The marriage of movement and technology they started is amazing.

So, Nate, you are supporting EFF right? Any blogger who doesn't is not properly hedging their risks imho.

filistro said...

PoliticalWiz... since you have set yourself the Herculean (but admirable) task of demanding accountability from Bart DP, let me help you by providing a brief introduction to the Bartian Art of Documentation:

ibid: Bart believes it, so it's true

op cit: Bart has said it before, so it's true

et al: the teabaggers say it, so it's true

To paraphrase the words of another intellectual giant of the past century:

"Being Bart means never having to provide proof."

Pragmatus said...

NATE…

PLEASE GET RID OF THE #&$%#@$ AUDIO ADS AT TOP RIGHT.

TODAY I SEE THEY HAVE EVOLVED INTO A FORM THAT CAN’T BE TURNED OFF.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.

Tony C. said...

No filters, No Analysis: Perfect!

The lack of filters and analysis is ideal, in my view. The people that do the "filtering and analysis" are not just fact-checkers, they are ideology checkers that inevitably "filter" out what they believe is wrong or illogical, and whose "analysis" is usually nothing but raw assertion of unproven facts.

The last thing we need is a self-appointed elite class that inevitably shapes the statements of others to fit their political agenda, or at least do less damage to their political agenda. It is hard for me to imagine an extreme religious conservative giving my atheist friends a fair hearing; and vice versa.

All people arrive with their own core beliefs, and if they act as the filters and analysts then their core beliefs will infect and skew their selections and analysis.

The only valid "filter" is survival of the fittest message. Such messages will be analyzed, but the only valid analysis is by the fittest analysts. Nate is one example, nobody put him in charge of poll analysis, but we have accepted him as an authoritative analyst because enough of us think he makes sense, his methodology is transparent, and because his predictions have succeeded where others have failed. Being right can be a survival advantage for pundits and analysts, that is Nate's claim to fame. (There are other survival advantages besides being right, obviously. Being entertaining is one of them.)

Here's hoping the web remains free of filters and analysts; we have already proven we don't need them. Let Darwinism rule.

Ed said...

The truth is starting to come out about "heath care reform":

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/health-industry-execs-poised-to-make-a-bundle-2009-12-29

PoliticalWiz said...

The Internet has the potential to open the widest possible window on the world. As Terra said "to bring a college to every person".

But potential is like a check, only any good if you use it.

The bad thing about the net is that way too many people only use it to reinforce their own viewpoint.

@ Tony C.
Conservatives are NOT ALL delusional. There are still, at least I hope so, rational intelligent conservatives out there in the manner of Bill Buckley. Edmund Burke laid out an excellent, rational foundation for Conservatism. Don't get caught up in the same mindset of the wingnuts that if "you don't agree with me, there's something wrong with you."

Problem currently is that waaaaay too many conservatives today, with the possible exception of Newt (most times), are dittoheads that exhibit that paranoid delusional behavior.

Even the 2010 CPAC convention is to be sponsored by the John Birch Society. The same paranoid group that Buckley excoriated and was essentially tossed out of mainstream conservatism and the Republican Party over 40 years ago.

Sad, isn't it?

@ filistro:
I know. But I get a sort of perverse enjoyment out of calling my favorite Bartian's bluff. I'd LOVE to be sitting at the opposite table in a courtroom with him if he uses the same tactics there!

Bart DePalma said...

Political Whiz:

Look it up yourself.

I could give less than a damn whether you believe me or not. Indeed, I am tickled by the almost complete willful ignorance on the left of the scope of the Tea Party rebellion and how they operate. You folks are in for a BIG surprise come 2010.

Meanwhile, carry on.

Jenny:

Palin is a supporter, not a leader or organizer, of the Tea Party movement. Her primary means of social network communication is her Facebook page, which is widely read on the right and demands so much attention that it is quoted routinely by the Dem old media.

Beck helped promote the 9/12 March on Washington through his television and radio shows and a website. However, he is not part of the grass roots Tea Party organization.

As for the relative audience of Beck and Maddow, Beck is among the top five in viewers and listeners, while Maddow is in constant danger of being cut, even by MSNBC's low standards of ratings. Beck had a large part in drawing several hundred thousand to DC on 9/12, while Maddow would have trouble filling out a dinner party.

Jenny said...

Poor, sad, disturbed Bart.

Yet again, no stats/no evidence.

Tony C. said...

PoliticalWiz: Conservatives ARE delusional.

I hardly know where to start!

Conservatives that believe Abstinence Only exhortations will work have been proven wrong, and they are delusional.

Conservatives that believe real sex education near the age of puberty will promote sex among their children have been proven wrong, and they are delusional.

Conservatives that believe Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck et al are delusional.

Conservatives that believe Republicans that profess religious piety are almost always delusional (considering the proven adultery, proven lies and proven corruption we see.)

Conservatives that believe in creationism are delusional.

Conservatives that believe Republicans are for "small government" are delusional.

Conservatives that believe Republicans subscribe to libertarian principles are delusional.

Conservatives that believe homosexuality is a "choice" are delusional.

Conservatives that believe tax cuts for the rich will create prosperity for the poor are delusional.

Conservatives that believe deregulation of banks and industry will improve the economy are delusional.

Conservatives that believe "free markets" will work to their advantage are delusional.

Conservatives that believe a clump of cells the size of a pea without a brain or lungs or limbs is a full-fledged human being with rights are delusional.

Conservatives that believe giving the government unrestrained permission to spy on its citizens will not lead to significant abuses of that system by the government are delusional.

I could go on. A few of these points of view are held by a small minority of liberals, but the overwhelming majority of believers in each are conservatives.

Exactly what belief do you attribute to conservatives, that is only marginally held by liberals, that we can consider rational, or can even clear the lower bar of non-delusional?

Bartbuster said...

As for the relative audience of Beck and Maddow

Bagdad, the Maddow reference had nothing to do with relative audience, it was related to your claim that conservatards dominate Facebook and Twitter. A claim that you clearly pulled out of your ass.

Dale said...

@TonyC -

Rather than go point by point- I would have to say that while you appear to be very passionate about your beliefs, they are not very logical.

I too am a Computer Scientist (and Physicist), but I work in the real world and I am VERY conservative "for logical reasons."

shiloh said...

Re: the internet and politics, the bottom line is, as always, the bottom line! ie Obama broke all presidential fund raising records in 2008 raising 150 million in one month! September, mostly by integrating the net into the process.

Both of my donations to Obama's campaign were by internet and these were the only (2) donations I made to a politician in my life.

The Dems continue to out raise the Reps by 3 to 1 margins partially because of the internet data base Obama/Dems have constructed.

And re: advertising ;) for a 5/6 month period at 538, political ads for John Kasich appeared on the left side ;) of my screen because of my location, Ohio. But they don't appear anymore as they probably figured out advertising on a liberal trending blog for a Rep is not a good idea lol.

Since my donations last year, I've been inundated w/mail and emails asking for more money from 4/5 Dem organizations.

This is not you grandfather's Dem party as the Dems have learned to effectively use the internet, whereas Reps, not so much.

and the obvious, cheney/bush helped immensely in Dem fund raising! :)

and again BDP, at your next teabagger meeting make a donation to the Reps as they really, really need your help ...

shiloh said...

Pragmatus said...

NATE…

PLEASE GET RID OF THE #&$%#@$ AUDIO ADS AT TOP RIGHT.

TODAY I SEE THEY HAVE EVOLVED INTO A FORM THAT CAN’T BE TURNED OFF.

PLEASE GET RID OF THIS INTRUSIVE AUDIO SHIT. NOBODY WANTS IT.
~~~~~~~~~~


One's mute button or volume control is quite useful in getting rid of sound ...

Bryce said...

@BradDP: Beck may be more influential than Maddow overall, but that's not germane to your claims. You claimed that conservatives dominate Twitter and Facebook. Then why does Maddow have about ten times the followers on Twitter?

Bryce said...

Correction: 9.21 times as many followers. The people here, they love their numbers.

Brad, you're claiming that conservatives dominate Twitter, and to support your claim you're using evidence that shows that conservatives dominate cable news, and the pasty-skinned, octogenarian audience that watches it.

Bart DePalma said...

shiloh said...

Re: the internet and politics, the bottom line is, as always, the bottom line! ie Obama broke all presidential fund raising records in 2008 raising 150 million in one month! September, mostly by integrating the net into the process....The Dems continue to out raise the Reps by 3 to 1 margins partially because of the internet data base Obama/Dems have constructed.

Actually, the Deaniacs were the ones who started this and the Obama folks improved upon it. However, the Dems hardly have a patent on this innovation and the GOP has been quick to copy it. As a result, the Dems 2008 fundraising advantage has largely disappeared.

...and again BDP, at your next teabagger meeting make a donation to the Reps as they really, really need your help ...

The GOP has traditionally relied upon volunteers for GOTV and spend their dough on television and radio, while the Dems usually pay their GOTV folks. If they are smart, the GOP will do everything in their power to recruit Tea Party members to volunteer to GOTV. They are free, motivated, connected and legion.

PoliticalWiz said...

@ BDP
YOU made the assertion.
YOU have a history of FALSE assertions.
YOU were called on to PROVE your assertion.
YOU have NOT done so.
YOU were PROVEN WRONG by empirical evidence once today by a mild mannered young lady took no time at all to DISPROVE you on another matter

Therefore;
YOU have no credibility!
and
YOU demonstrate the point Tony C makes FOR SOME conservatives!

@ Tony C:
If you add the word "Some" at the start of each line, you would be correct.

For one: Goldwater, and other conservatives, were appalled at the introduction to the religious "right" and many of the ideas you rail about, into mainstream politics.

I COULD play devils advocate on a number of your "proofs", a number of which YOU, sir, have no more empirical evidence than our favorite Bartian.

Ie. Can YOU prove empirically that some God did NOT set the universe in motion 13G or so years ago and it has been evolving according to His/Her plan since? Can you empirically prove for us exactly the moment WHEN HUMAN life begins? I thought not.

While I may well agree with you on many of your views, I am not so arrogant as to not recognize that there ARE valid points where RATIONAL people can disagree.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

Bart DePalma said...

Bryce said...

@BradDP: Beck may be more influential than Maddow overall, but that's not germane to your claims. You claimed that conservatives dominate Twitter and Facebook. Then why does Maddow have about ten times the followers on Twitter?

My point was that the grass roots Tea Party leaders and members are communicating and organizing via Facebook and Twitter and that conservative grass roots groups dominate this venue the way the left dominates blogs.

Jenny out of ignorance or trying to offer a red herring replied with the completely unrelated subject of the number of Twitter followers of media celebrities.

The subject is using Twitter and Facebook for political grassroots organizing, not about celebrities using Twitter to communicate with fans.

Charles said...

BDP:

I wouldn't have included Twitter (as I think that fad is fading fast), but you have a point about Facebook.

1) Sarah Palin has 1,136,512 fans as of 12:46 PM (is that enough math for you libs?)

2) Obama did not even have a Facebook account THREE (3) YEARS before he was elected.

filistro said...

@Bartian (rhymes with Martian)...If they are smart, the GOP will do everything in their power to recruit Tea Party members to volunteer to GOTV.

GOTV? You're kidding, right? At the last election where actual votes were cast, the Tea Party ran a candidate in opposition to the GOP candidate.

Bart DePalma said...

Political Whiz:

You are free to actually prove any of my contentions are false. Simply posting the equivalent of "liar, liar, pants on fire" is not considered proof outside of lefty blogs.

Charles said...

"If they are smart, the GOP will do everything in their power to recruit Tea Party members to volunteer to GOTV."

Why do you think that Gov. Palin is speaking to the Tea Party National Convention on 2/6/10?

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

They are free, motivated, connected and legion.
~~~~~~~~~~


Hopefully, they are also well armed! ;)

take care

Charles said...

filistro:

We failed the first time we launched a rocket to the moon as well ; )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing#American_unmanned_hard_landings

Charles said...

LP

PoliticalWiz said...

@BDP
Are you truly that ignorant or are you just playing a serious mindfuck with us?

At your behest, (and since you do not have the courage of you convictions enough to prove them) I just did an Internet search on CO legislation concerning presidential electors. Everybody looky here:

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Colorado_Selection_of_Presidential_Electors_Act_(2004)

It WAS NOT a secret attempt. It WAS a ballot initiative that was DEFEATED several years ago.

It WAS NOT to apportion CO electors to the national election results. It WAS to end "winner-take-all" for the STATEWIDE vote and apportion electors by the STATEWIDE percentages.

Pathetic, paranoid, (if I may, Tony) and delusional.

If you have something else, prove it.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

filistro said...

Bart DePalma said...

You are free to actually prove any of my contentions are false


Bart.. you asserted yesterday that there have only been 80,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since the beginning of the war.

That is FALSE even by the most Bushian standards, where the number runs around 100-120,000 and requires formal government documentation to certify actual death.) It is WILDLY false by the methodology accepted by Johns Hopkins which interviews individuals and asks about deaths within their immediate family, then uses cross-referencing software to eliminate duplication. Those numbers run above 500,000 deaths, and Zogby asserts they are accurate to 95%.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Political Whiz:

You are free to actually prove any of my contentions are false. Simply posting the equivalent of "liar, liar, pants on fire" is not considered proof outside of lefty blogs.
~~~~~~~~~~


Like when you replied to a post yesterday by saying nonsense

very convincing ...

filistro said...

Charles LP... if you are planning to launch Sarah Palin to the moon, I woudl like to donate.

Do you accept Paypal?

Charles said...

PoliticalWiz:

BDP was referring to Twitter action THIS YEAR, not 2004 (Twitter was only launched publically in 2006 ; )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter#History

shiloh said...

filistro said...

Charles LP... if you are planning to launch Sarah Palin to the moon, I woudl like to donate.

Do you accept Paypal?
~~~~~~~~~~


Do you wanna go to the moon, Alice! ;)

Charles said...

filistro:

It's called an ANALOGY. NY 23 was our first full-scale "experiment", and we succeeded in preventing the RINO from getting elected at least. If Sarah Palin actually gets nominated by the GOP, that will be a huge success!!!

You can donate to that effort here:

http://SarahPAC.com

Todd Dugdale said...

Nate wrote:
"by allowing people to filter their news sources, the Internet may enable people to live in their own virtual bubbles."

Yes, and more than just filtering news sources, opinion sources are also filtered.

This leads people of all ideological stripes to believe that their view is far more prevalent than it really is.

10,000 people agreeing with a specific position (as a hypothetical example) may seem like a staggering groundswell to someone in a bubble, but in the "Big Picture" it is not. Rather than being the tip of an iceberg, it is likely to be the iceberg itself.

That is why polling is so essential in this new internet-heavy media environment: it grounds us to reality rather than the bubble we have chosen to embrace.

BDP wrote:
"I am tickled by the almost complete willful ignorance on the left of the scope of the Tea Party rebellion and how they operate. You folks are in for a BIG surprise come 2010."

Case in point.

As far as getting Tea Party adherents involved in door-knocking: yes, absolutely, yes. Get them out there screaming "Socialist! Traitor! Fascist!" in the faces of potential voters when they fail to agree with every single assertion made. Let the Tea Party adherents discover that the real world does not match up to the delusional bubble they have been sold.

shiloh said...

Charles said...

filistro:

It's called an ANALOGY. NY 23 was our first full-scale "experiment"
~~~~~~~~~~


Practice, practice, practice ...

Charles said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Bart DePalma said...

Charles:

Before I got involved in the Tea Party movement, I did not pay much attention to either Facebook or Twitter and did not have accounts with either. I mistakenly thought that it was for kids.

Boy was I wrong.

The US military prides itself on obtaining real time intelligence and providing it immediately to its troops so they can hit the enemy before they can execute attacks. This is known as operating within the enemy's decision cycle. This ability more than any technological advantage in weapons is what makes the US military nearly unbeatable on the battlefield.

Twitter is giving grass roots organizations the similar ability to obtain real time political intelligence and act to counter opposition politicians and parties inside their decision cycle.

The Tea Party's use of social networking is past haphazard experimentation. There are a large number of business men and women in this movement who have refined the social networking strategies and are traveling around the country offering classes to local groups on how to employ these strategies and are gathering contact information for the members at each stop to add them as friends in larger regional and national groups.

This is how the Tea Party folks organized the half million or so folks who showed up at local Tea Party protests around the country on Tax Day, Independence day and then at the town hall meetings in August. The crowning achievement was getting several hundred thousand to DC on 9/12. This all happened in about five months!

Despite a nearly total black out of stories on the Tea Party movement from the Dem media apart from juvenile snarks about "tea baggers," the movement continues to expand exponentially through social networking. This is why the movement enjoys such wide support when pollsters bother to ask about us.

In short, the Tea Party movement is doing for grass roots recruiting what Obama did for fundraising last year.

Charles said...

BDP:

I am simply pointing out that Facebook is the preferred medium for all of that (besides the 140 character limitation and celebrity-based appeal, Twitter fails to retain in excess of 40% of initial users). No "friendly fire" please, we are on the same side here ; )

PoliticalWiz said...

@ Charles

Charles.
Charles.
No, over here Charles.
Pay attention to the subject AT HAND.

The subject was our favorite Bartian's assertion that " The Dems in our Colorado legislation attempted to secretly enact legislation to compel our presidential electors to follow the national election results rather than our own state results." (his quote)

Wake up, Charles!

I posted the results of my search, after he refused to prove this challenged assertion. I also conceded that he had the opportunity to prove me wrong with his own empirical evidence.

Do you see now?

And I apologize to the forum for my tackiness and lack of good manners.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Charles:

Before I got involved in the Tea Party movement, I did not pay much attention to either Facebook or Twitter and did not have accounts with either. I mistakenly thought that it was for kids.
~~~~~~~~~~~


No, it's for folk who have wayyy too much free time on their hands, like yourself.

mathrec said...

Henry's comment (the fourth overall) said it well. Thank you.

I actually found Bart's comments interesting. He cited Facebook and Twitter as dominating the Tea Party communications, and identified blogging as more of a tool of the left. I always think of Facebook and Twitter as messaging tools, rather than tools for exchanging information. In fact, Bart said they are used for "news dissemination and organizing".

I still identify myself as moderate/progressive. Although I'm often distinctly anti-Republican, I don't identify that well with the Democrats. Even so, I'm a reliable Democratic vote and sometime supporter. I just can't handle the messaging-over-reality thing, and I've never found much conservative counterweight to the delusional activity on the conservative side.

That is not to say that conservatives are all delusional---but they don't let reality get in the way of their messaging, which is disingenuous at best. Their base is OK with that. I'm not.

tamhas said...

While I think you are certainly right that the internet is contributing to "activating" extreme views in the sense of making them more visible and making it easier for those with such views to find each other, it seems to me that there is also a lesson in your remarks about your aunt and uncle. By having those with non-centrist views labeling themselves as moderates, we are ending up with a self-identified center that actually contains a lot more diversity than it used to. In my experience, this seems to result in polarization because those who have come to a center label from the right, will claim that those who claim a center label from the left are actually "socialists", i.e., they are trying to push those from the other side out of the center so that they can occupy the center for themselves. They same happens from the other direction of course. The result seems to be increased friction among those who would like to be seen as moderate.

Charles said...

Political "Wiz":

Yes, I see all of that, and simply pointed out that the "results" of your search (2004 legislation) are wrong, on their face, because Twitter was not even available until July, 2006. Nice try though.

Bart DePalma said...

BD: If they are smart, the GOP will do everything in their power to recruit Tea Party members to volunteer to GOTV.

filistro said...GOTV? You're kidding, right? At the last election where actual votes were cast, the Tea Party ran a candidate in opposition to the GOP candidate.


NY-23 showed that it is counter productive for the Tea Party and the GOP to work at cross purposes. This is why it is critical for the GOP to run conservative candidates who the Tea Party can support and then recruit them to GOTV for those candidates. We are beginning to see some coordination in CO and I have read some brief cryptic reports of the GOP national leadership opening contacts.

BD: You are free to actually prove any of my contentions are false

filistro said...Bart.. you asserted yesterday that there have only been 80,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since the beginning of the war. That is FALSE even by the most Bushian standards.


Try www.iraqbodycount.org. This anti-war group relies upon actual news reports, which are often exaggerated.

The Lancet studies were a complete political joke. They offered polling taken by Sunni Iraqis of Sunni Iraqis when the Sunni were at war with the United States before the Surge. This is about a credible as having the Taliban poll Taliban villages in Afghanistan to get a body count.

Todd Dugdale said...

Charles wrote:
"If the GOP win in 2010 and 2012 will a coalition of Tea Party support, who exactly will be in the "bubble"?"

Let's face it: whatever happens in 2010 and 2012 people like you are going to call it a "win". Hell, you are already calling NY-23 a "win" for the Tea Party movement.

It's interesting that a movement that tries so hard to distance itself from the Republican Party would see election victories for that Party as a "win" for the Tea Party movement. You want it both ways: you wish to reject the baggage of the GOP, but you also wish to claim credit for the success of that Party.

Since you see floating hypotheticals (a GOP "win") as a kind of refutation, then let me pose this hypothetical:

If the Tea Party movement turns out to be merely a faction of the discredited Republican Party, rather than "new blood", who exactly will be in the "bubble"?

Joseph said...

Mr. Silver,

Another phrasing of your "the Internet is really important!" is the meme "The Internet is serious business."

I applaud you for such a reasonable post not dismissing conservative activism as somehow more extremist than comparable activism on the left.

I agree the public isn't more polarized. Politics, government, and media certainly are more polarized. The media has pushed the Seussian "red state" / "blue state" dichotomy but it means little to many in upstate NY or Birmingham, AL.

I agree with you that the internet makes for a more vibrant political landscape. The internet empowers people with views out of the mainstream and provides a way for everyone to express their views and to clash with others. There may be more noise, but I agree we are no more polarized.

Charles said...

Todd Dugdale:

Thank you for your post. However, if the GOP win in 2010 and 2012 with a braod coalition of Independents and Tea Party support, who exactly will be in the "virtual bubble" again?

Monotreme said...

Bart appears to be referring to this legislation:

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/pages/states.php?s=CO

However, the disposition of the bill was nothing like what he suggests.

Mark Ballard said...

Laura Sydell had a great article on Morning Edition today on NPR about the polarization of America.

She postulates that the synergy between the explosion of cable news outlets and the internet revolution with social media and blogs allows people to choose to hear news and reaction that fits their personal view of reality, compared to the "old days" when the three network news programs dominated the news landscapes.

In essence, there is no remaining agreed upon social contract because so many people have maps of reality that have no overlap with the maps of others.

filistro said...

Charles, you are probably too high-minded and intellectual to pay attention to gossip.

Fortunately I am a very trivial person, and thus can provide you iwth this bit of vital information.

Levis legal contention is that he Palin household is not a fit place to raise a child. He intends to provide proof.

How damaging do you think this public airing of various bits of dirty laundry might be to Sarah's future electoral prospects? Can she afford to buy Levi off out of her book royalties? Is one of Todd's girlfriends about to spill the beans?

Tune in tomorrow for the next exciting episode!

Charles said...

To answer YOUR hypothetical, if Obama wins re-election in 2012, the GOP (and America) loses. Can you answer my question now?

Bart DePalma said...

Political Whiz:

You are too incompetent to do even the most basic research. Try going to the Colorado Legislature site and do a simple bill search.

The bill to which I referred was HR 09-1299. The bill was passed by the CO House and then died in the CO Senate as the vote was laid off twice as the Senators were barraged by protests.

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2009a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont/95711F1789472449872575530080882F?Open&target=/clics/clics2009a/csl.nsf/billsummary/2B1D1E27015D884F87257552008152DA?opendocument

You may now apologize.

Joseph said...

I just read through all of your comments to Nate's post. A good number of you insist that Republicans/conservatives are way more extremist than the Democrats/liberals.

As a conservative, your reasoning reveals to me just how extreme those of you making such claims are.

And I think this illustrates Nate's point well.

Charles said...

filistro:

Thanks for the "vital" information.

Charles said...

Political "Wiz":

ROTFLMAO

shiloh said...

Joseph said...

There may be more noise, but I agree we are no more polarized.
~~~~~~~~~~


Exactly, extremists have more platforms to be extreme, but their #s remain the same.

ie Fox News provides a 24/7 platform for their Sky is falling extreme conservative meme, but their daily average viewership is 1.4 million as opposed to (60) million McCain voters.

Plus when you're in the minority the crying/faux outrage is always more pronounced, especially now that an African/American, Muslim, Islamo-Fascist, Anti-Christ yada yada yada family is living in the White House ...

PoliticalWiz said...

@ Charles
Your point is taken. And I apologize for my earlier snarkiness, sir.

BUT,

since our favorite Bartian is prone to false assertions

AND

these Tweets of which he wrote cannot be directly confirmed

THEREFORE

I requested the CO legislative information (Bill # and sponsor) that he could use to demonstrate his veracity.

ONCE AGAIN, he refuses/is unable to do so.

AND THEREFORE

his credibility is ONCE AGAIN called into question.

Assuming he actually IS a litigator, he knows the difference, in legal arguments between assertions/allegations, and the necessity to prove them sufficiently, thus converting them to empirical evidence, and if it is not done, that allows the trier of fact to dismiss any other unproven assertion as non-factual.

Also, based on his reaction to empirical evidence that his assertions ARE false, I am convinced that one could rub is nose in manure (assuming he asserted not-manure) and he would then assert it to be chocolate ice cream.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

filistro said...

Charles, just trying to help you out with some friendly advice.

If you're planning a ride to the moon, do not use the Sarah Palin rocketship. It's anout to crash into the narrow strip of water that separates Alaska from Russia.

Charles said...

filistro:

Ronald Reagan got elected (twice) despite being DIVORCED, having a homosexual son, and a druggie daughter who posed nude for Playboy.

filistro said...

Charles... true... but Sarah Palin is no Ronald Reagan.

She really, really isn't. Trust me on this.

(On the other hand, if you guys actually want to hitch your wagon to a falling star... well, who am I to stand in your way? ;-)

Charles said...

That's right (but thanks so much for the "friendly" advice ; )

shiloh said...

Charles said...

filistro:

Ronald Reagan got elected (twice) despite being DIVORCED, having a homosexual son, and a druggie daughter who posed nude for Playboy.
~~~~~~~~~~


I knew Ronnie, Ronnie was a friend of mine and Ms. Palin is no Reagan! ;)

btw, Reagan was elected in 1980 w/50.75% 'cause Carter was a god awful president, leader and campaigner.

Patti Davis posed for Playboy in 1994 and Michael Reagan is Gay ~ I did not know that ...

Todd Dugdale said...

Charles wrote:
"if the GOP win in 2010 and 2012 with a braod coalition of Independents and Tea Party support"

If it is a "broad coalition", then it would be you who would be in the bubble, I would suppose. If it would be merely a victory for traditional Republicans who sucker the Tea Party movement into supporting them, then I fail to see how it would prove that the nation is hysterical about the threat of socialism, tyranny, etc.

Look, Charles, it's obvious that you are pitching any Republican victory as some kind of victory for the Tea Party movement. We saw this with the evangelicals and the GOP, and the Tea Party is walking down the same path of being used and discarded when their purpose is served. The mere fact that you see the fates of the GOP and the Tea Party movement as being intrinsically intertwined is proof of that.

If actual Tea Party candidates can run and win elections on a large scale, then the alternate reality that the movement espouses would be vindicated. However, if the Tea Party is merely going to latch on to the GOP and claim every Republican Party victory as some kind of Tea Party victory, then that is not a vindication of the alternate reality espoused by the Right. Likewise, if the CPUSA were to endorse a Republican candidate, a victory would not prove that the Republican Party is the party of Communists.

I guess this means you will float another vague hypothetical as "proof" of your position.

If those who predicted a Hoffman win (such as BDP) were so wrong about the outcome, then who is in the bubble?

PoliticalWiz said...

@BDP

Thank you. Now, wasn't that EASY? Why all the drama? I am ALWAYS willing to accept evidence properly presented. But NOT a flat assertion. THAT'S ALL I've ever asked of you.

At your request, though, in just a bit I SHALL willingly say I am sorry.

I am glad to know about that bill and that other states may well be considering such. It seems to be trying to an end run around the Constitution and I strongly believe if passed it would be challenged in the US Supreme Court and found unconstitutional for violating Art 2 Sec 1 and Amend 12 of the Constitution. I would concur.

BUT

HR09-1299 appears to have been properly constructed, sponsored, posted, debated and eventually defeated in OPEN legislative process.

THEREFORE

YOUR contention that it was some "secret" plot is STILL FALSE!!

Bart, I'm SORRY you are so obtuse.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

Charles said...

Todd:

I'm a life-long registered Republican, and I didn't predict a Hoffman win. But, I can still see the value in BDP's statement above: "NY-23 showed that it is counter productive for the Tea Party and the GOP to work at cross purposes. This is why it is critical for the GOP to run conservative candidates who the Tea Party can support and then recruit them to GOTV for those candidates." I don't call that "suckering" anyone.

Also, it's no coincidence that Gov. Palin is delivering the KEYNOTE speech to the Tea Party National Convention on Ronald Reagan's birthday ; )

shiloh said...

PoliticalWiz said...

Bart, I'm SORRY you are so obtuse.
~~~~~~~~~~


Too funny!

Joseph said...

shiloh,

The departure of Colmes and addition of Beck certainly pushed Fox News in a more conservative direction, but it is comparable to MSNBC's liberal bias (Schultz, Olbermann, Maddow, Matthews). The most unfortunate thing is that too many people only get their information from one outlet, not that such outlets exist.

shiloh said:
Plus when you're in the minority the crying/faux outrage is always more pronounced...


I completely agree. During Bush's terms, liberal people went nuts. There is much fear and anger in politics. The minority always have their reasons but the internet gives them greater voice.

I can only imagine how Reagan would have fared in the age of the internet.

Todd Dugdale said...

Charles wrote:
"if Obama wins re-election in 2012, the GOP (and America) loses."

Yeah, nothing to do with being in a delusional bubble, which was the point, after all.

If the Democrats win, then the GOP loses. Wow. Thanks for clarifying that, Charles.

Here, let me wrap up all of your present and future hypotheticals with one blanket answer:

If you are wrong, then you will be wrong. If you are right, then you will be right.

Your ability to pose "what if..?" questions is not proof of anything. It seems to be your major contribution to most discussions, though.

If Godzilla were to emerge from the NY harbour and trash the city, it would vindicate any proposed anti-Godzilla efforts by the government. But merely floating the hypothetical emergence of Godzilla is not sufficient to take that threat with credibility.

Likewise, your ability to float hypothetical election outcomes does not magically imbue your fantasies with the veneer of reality. I'm quite sure that you would love everyone here to embrace your electoral fantasies and play the "what if" game with you, but it's a really tiresome game and I have indulged you enough.

Jacob said...

@Political Wiz

The bill to which our dear friend Bart is referring is the National Popular Vote initiative that has already been passed in five states (NJ, MD, WA, HI, and IL). While Bart's assertion that such a bill would make CO's electoral votes subject to the national rather than state vote, he is technically correct but dishonest.

The bill in every state in which it has been proposed would only take effect if a group of states representing a MAJORITY of the electoral college pass such laws. If this group of states reaches that threshhold, all of their electors will become bound to vote for the winner of the national popular vote, ergo that person will become President.

One can of course argue the merits and disadvantages of a national popular vote, but the point of this bill was to do away with the broken and archaic electoral college system.

The "secret bill" assertion is patently false of course. To Bart, a "secret bill is just one of which he disapproves. You see, Bart believes that in order to be right, his positions must be popular, and since of course he is right, then his positions are popular.

And since our little buddy believes that everyone knows this at some level, anyone opposing his agenda is anti-democratic (small d) at heart and must operate in secret on some level to pass their agenda.

brian said...

Liberal ironies:

1) GWB raising lots of $$ is a sign that money is a corrupting force in politics. Obama raising lots of $$ is a sign America loves liberalism.

2) NY-23 Repub party infighting is a sign that Repubs are hateful and the party is falling apart. Healthcare Dem party infighting is a sign Dems are thoughtful and are not afraid to go against party leaders.

Sure there are more.

Jacob said...

Did anyone else think that the Harris poll questions seemed like an odd way to define extremism? Yes alienation can breed extremism, but it doesn't necessitate that outcome, nor are the questions entirely indicative of extremism as opposed to populism, which is not necessarily a matter of radicalism or of political extremes.

The rich/poor one jumps out especially. First of all, income disparity has been increasing for the past 30 years or so--that could just be a statement of fact for many who would answer in the affirmative.

Secondly, Americans do not think of ourselves as poor by and large, nor do we identify with "the poor." I recall a poll some years back where 19% of Americans identified themselves as part of the wealthiest 1%. It is unlikely that most people answering in the affirmative would view the rich/poor gap as their own needs being overlooked.

And finally of course, the GOP has been CAMPAIGNING on making the rich richer and the poor poorer at least since Reagan. The rich to them are "productive" and "hardworking" while the poor are "undeserving" or "lazy." A Republican answering in the affirmative would most likely view the rich/poor gap as approaching the optimal outcome where the worthy are rewarded and the unworthy are punished.

Charles said...

Todd Dugdale claimed (at 1:26 PM) "Let's face it: whatever happens in 2010 and 2012 people like you are going to call it a "win". Hell, you are already calling NY-23 a "win" for the Tea Party movement."

When I point out that I didn't do any of that -- in fact, I called it a FAILED experiment -- Todd Dugdale mocks me (at 2:22 PM) as "delusional" for stating the obvious: "If the Democrats win, then the GOP loses. Wow. Thanks for clarifying that, Charles."

I have learned to not answer Todd Dugdale's questions anymore.

clonecone said...

I think you make the mistake of thinking there's a difference between the PUMAs and the Bill Killers. The overlap is about 98%.

Charles said...

brian:

3) GWB waiting 7 minutes to react to the 9/11 attacks means he is completely incompetent. Obama waiting 4 days means he is cool, collected, and (most of all) competent.

4) GWB playing golf after addressing the press means he is out of touch and deserving of Michael Moore documentary-style treatment. Obama playing golf after addressing the press is a well-deserved break.

Welcome to Wonderland.

shiloh said...

brian said...

Liberal ironies:

1) GWB raising lots of $$ is a sign that money is a corrupting force in politics. Obama raising lots of $$ is a sign America loves liberalism.

2) NY-23 Repub party infighting is a sign that Repubs are hateful and the party is falling apart. Healthcare Dem party infighting is a sign Dems are thoughtful and are not afraid to go against party leaders.
~~~~~~~~~~


Actually liberals disagree all the time, especially about corporate money as many major corporations give generously to both parties ie hedging their bets.

After the last (2) elections the Reps had their party purged of most moderates by conservadems and now the teabaggers are trying to totally purify the party of No! ~ Love it when a plan comes together ...

and the other sore loser minutia from brian and Charles is somewhat amusing, but one wonders when you (2) are gonna stop crying!

Whereas many liberals do indeed hate Bush, I have sort of a warm spot as his incompetence/corruption paved ;) the way for Barack Hussein Obama to become the 44th President of the United States of America! :)

It's all good!

PoliticalWiz said...

@ Jacob
Don't know how that one got past me, or maybe my Alzheimer's has allowed me to dismiss it!

Sorry, I don't necessarily believe the Elector College is "broken". It is simply doing what it is designed to do. If you think about it,the Founding Fathers were NOT that keen on raw democracy. Of the four areas of the Federal government (House, Senate, Court and Exec) ONLY the House was popularly elected. The Senate only became such around WWI.
Around the same time as women's suffrage, income tax and Prohibition. (Let the debate begin if the Government is the better since those days!!!)

That bill, as I posted earlier, is just an end run around the Constitution and will probably be declared unconstitutional if it passes enough states to be implemented. If the supporters of such a measure were to do it right, they need to go the constitutional route of amendment. That CAN be initiated at the state level by application of 2/3's of the states.

Your comments about "campaigning to make the rich richer . . . poor are lazy and undeserving" carries a certain Dickensian ring to it.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

Hechicera said...

When BDP commented:
"In short, the Tea Party movement is doing for grass roots recruiting what Obama did for fundraising last year."

I agree. Absolutely, and want to underscore this for every one else. Radio, websites, church organizations, heck they even appropriated the HSLDA! (Google it if you don't know them), and that's in addition to Facebook, Twitter.

@BDP
You still haven't answered me where you fall on the spectrum of the right, and if you read/approve of WND and if you were aware of http://www.christianexodus.com/ , and where you are ideologically in relation to them. Again, family in upstate SC, that movement's home turf, and they and DeMint are two happy peas in a pod.

Charles said...

Hechicera:

My wife and I homeschooled our son up until high school : )

Bart DePalma said...

Hechicera said...

@BDP You still haven't answered me where you fall on the spectrum of the right.

The best description of my corner of the conservative universe is Pew's category of Enterprisers - which are essentially libertarian hawks.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=949

I do not regularly read WND, although they have on occasion broken some interesting stories.

I had never heard of Christian Exodus before you posted about them. I am an American and do not have much sympathy for secessionists - Christian or otherwise. I prefer to fight to take my country back.

DeMint might have to stroke folks like Christian Exodus so they do not secede from the ballot box when he is running for re-election, but DeMint is hardly a secessionist himself. Indeed, DeMInt is one of the more active GOP leaders in opposition to the Obama agenda.

Tony C. said...

@PoliticalWiz:

1) Adding "some" is not necessary, I anticipated this complaint and phrased the claims as "Conservatives that believe X are delusional." That automatically excludes conservatives that do not believe X.

2) Can YOU prove empirically that some God did NOT set the universe in motion [...]

Empirical proof is not necessary; being rational means you cannot accept claims without reasonable proof, and there is none. The claims of Gods are simply assertions without proof, and the argument for a God or Gods or the supernatural is usually reduced to "How else do you explain it?"

But that ignores the dilemma, that God is one invented hypothesis, and that by design, no experiment can ever test the hypothesis. Given the infinity of possible untestable creation stories that can be invented, there is no rational way to choose amongst them.

People that believe without reason, and especially against reason, are delusional, irrational by definition.

3) ...WHEN human life begins?
The question is phrased wrongly; a living egg is alive, and every time a woman refrains from sexual intercourse and then menstruates she has killed a potential human being, had she only made some attempt to fertilize that egg.

The true question is when should a fetus be given the rights of a born human? Clearly there is little difference between a born human and a six-month fetus; but there is a very large difference between a six-month fetus and a microscopic ball of cells without a brain! We have largely agreed as a society that a complete lack of brain activity is sufficient cause to declare the body lifeless even if it could be kept going. Terminating life support on such a body is not considered murder. For the first several weeks in the life of a fertilized cell, there is no brain and by definition no brain activity.

Preventing a life from coming into being (by, say, abstinence followed by menstruation) is not the same thing as murder. Abortion prevents a human from coming into being, that clump of cells has no rational right to life, any more than an unfertilized egg in a fallopian tube has a right to life.

As a rational person I don't have to pinpoint a specific point in development when a fetus should gain a right to life; as long as I am certain that in the first few weeks it is no more deserving of rights than thousands of other living things, including things made of human cells (like tumors), that we kill without a second thought.

4) Yes, logic is always called arrogance when it punctures delusions. I do recognize there are valid points where rational people can disagree or have different interpretations of the facts, or different interpretations when there is insufficient evidence to settle a matter one way or the other.

But it is delusional people that simply deny evidence and believe the opposite of demonstrable facts or hold completely conflicting views, and it is delusional people that believe in fictions that cannot ever be tested in any way, whether those fictions are told by politicians or evangelists or mullahs or tribal elders or parents.

For the items I listed, conservatives are immune to rationality and driven by fictions, lies and delusion.

Charles said...

filistro:

If USS Palin is proven correct about Obama's "death panels" and that he "experiment[ed] with socialism" do you still think she couldn't get elected President?

Charles said...

Tony C. (is this "rational" enough for you?):

PRO

1) There's no other conservative who can rally the base and GOTV like Sarah Palin, turning out TENS OF THOUSANDS at campaign events, especially against Obama's negatives;

2) She has outsold EVERY other political memoir out there (including BOTH by the Clintons);

3) The GOP raised $1 MILLION in the 24-hours following her convention speech; and

4) No other opposition candidate is better positioned to take advantage of Obama if his approval ratings stay below 50%.

CON

1) There's no other liberal who can rally the base and GOTV like Barack Obama, turning out a HUNDRED THOUSAND at campaign events, especially against Palin's negatives;

2) While he didn't sell as many books, in 2012, Obama will have 4 years of executive experience -- almost as much as Palin -- and beating an incumbent is next to impossible;

3) The DNC raised $10 MILLION in the 24-hours following her convention speech; and

4) Thirty-four (34) months is a long time in which Obama can recover politically.

All that being said, I think that I have a firm grasp of reality and the political odds.

Todd Dugdale said...

Now Charles is attempting to get fillistro to play the "what if" game.

I know you aren't answering my questions anymore, but it seems rather dense of you to keep posing the same "If I am right and you are wrong, what would you say to that?" question on every issue.

Apparently it is what you mistake for discourse, however.

Bartbuster said...

Now Charles is attempting to get fillistro to play the "what if" game.

Chucklehead plays the "what if" game everywhere he goes. It's his thing.

Charles said...

Hi, Bart "buster" : )

Tony C. said...

@Charles:

Rational enough for what? To be a conservative? How does any of this on either side warrant being a conservative?

If Obama is physically able (and I hope he is) he will be the Democratic nominee in 2012.

I seriously doubt Palin will run against him, all the evidence I have seen, by her actions, scandals, and testimony of several that have been close to her from Wasilla to McCain's campaign, is that Sarah is in it for the money, not the power. She wants celebrity she can turn into cold legal cash, and she has been nearly burned on that before. She is clearly willing to pile lies upon lies upon more lies, but I think she has run a bit scared of the intense scrutiny of finances and actions in public office. Notice it was the main thing she brought up in her resignation speech?

There is a lot of money to be made as a celebrity without that scrutiny, and she isn't stupid: She is a cynical, calculating opportunist that knows she wouldn't have a chance against Obama (for the facts you stated), and I think that rather than commit to a campaign she'd rather be a talk show host or something earning $5M or so a year from Fox; complete with entourage, servants, clothes, cars and publicists and all the perks they can throw at her without zero responsibility to the taxpaying public.

That pesky law department just gets so much in the way of turning campaign donations into personal wealth. Sarah won the celebrity lottery, and I believe she will cash in for as long as it lasts and then retire to her life of luxury.

PoliticalWiz said...

@ Tony C
Congratulations!!!!!
You just passed Philosophy 201!!!!
Hope you got signed up in time to get seats in Ethics 311 and Bioethics 531.

BTW, Bishop Usher "rationally" determined the date of creation, using HIS OWN premises.

Eg. You state that you don't "have to pinpoint a specific point in development when a fetus should gain a right to life; as long as I am certain that in the first few weeks it is no more deserving of rights than thousands of other living things". Which is true.

The only problem is that were you a legislator, or possibly a judge, or maybe a pregnant teenage girl, the answer to that question DOES become one that needs some specificity!!! For one, a matter of legal definition of a medical procedure, for another a possible matter of murder, for another a MORAL and ETHICAL dilemma culminating in a decision affecting the rest of their life.

Because you may renege on making that decision does NOT mean the question needs no answer. In societal terms, the definition IS a required one.

And one on which not everyone can "rationally" agree.

Remember too that there is a fine line between rational and rationalization.

Hell, even to give rigorous proof to as simple a thing as 1+1=2 required Russell and Whitehead 360 odd pages in Principia Mathematica!

Be strong in your convictions, but leave yourself a bit of breathing room. As many physicists have learned, we don't know EVERYTHING!

Tony C. said...

Correction; I meant "with zero responsibility to the taxpaying public."

PoliticalWiz said...

@ Charles
You left out:
Palin's positives have NEVER been above 40% and her negatives NEVER below 50%.

Quitting her job BEFORE her term ran out. (Guess the VP pick WOULD BE more important than ever)

Quite a mountain of doo-doo to overcome.

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

Charles said...

Tony C.:

Rational enough to qualify as a "Conservative who believes in X" but still realizes that Palin is our best hope against Obama? Making MONEY was not in her resignation speech at all. As for all of her alleged "lies" and "pesky" Law Department, you are aware that is what the State DoJ is referred to in Alaska, right?

Charles said...

Political "Wiz" (I really beginning to doubt that now):

She had a high of 93% in June of 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin#Approval_ratings

Nationally, she has had a rebound and is much higher than Obama THREE YEARS before he was elected / resigned his Senate seat too.

Next canard?

Donna said...

In that survey from the Nat'l Journal, it appears that mandates aren't terribly important to voters either.

Tony C. said...

@PoliticalWiz:

I'm beginning to question your intelligence. I do not have to answer the question with any specificity, neither does the law. It can arbitrarily say that abortions are legal up to some point of objectively determined development, and after that they are not legal. If the line is drawn a few weeks too soon, so what?

Bishop Usher did NOT rationally determine the date of creation, he took the Bible as literal truth and worked backward from there. What rational reason did he have to take the Bible as literal truth? None. Reasoning from an unfounded assumption is not rational. More charitably, his work can be read as "IF the Bible is literally true, I have computed the date of creation," but then, with overwhelming evidence of creation before his date (4000 BC or something) he has only produced evidence that the Bible is not literally true.

On the subject of 1+1=2, I have a Master's degree in Mathematics from Texas A&M; mathematics always starts with self-evident truths (axioms) and works up from there. The proof of which you speak was an exercise in trying to prove something based on axioms from set theory, and was difficult because of that. The vast majority of people would accept 1+1=2 as a self-evident equality; i.e. not needing to be proved at all.

I never claimed I (or we) knew EVERTHING, but what you fail to understand is that we do know SOME THINGS, and the people that refuse to believe in the things we DO know are DELUSIONAL. A fetus without a brain is not a person; I'd go so far as to say a fetus without a cortex is not a person. The only excuses for thinking that it IS a person are all based in irrational magical thinking with no basis in fact.

So, since you have settled on abortion, why should any conservative be opposed to abortion in the first six weeks of pregnancy, basically within a week or two of the first missed menstruation? The only reasons I have ever heard any of them offer, on TV or in person, are just as delusional as Usher's date of creation. They rest entirely on false premises they have irrationally accepted for emotional reasons.

Hechicera said...

@BDP

Thanks for the reply.

Re: DeMint
Yeah, I have a hard time figuring out who is the cart and who is the horse in his relationship with that group.

Tony C. said...

@Charles:

What was prominent in Palin's resignation speech was her mention of the investigations she and Todd were undergoing for corruption in the state office, and that was what I was referring to in her speech as evidence she was running scared of the scrutiny involved in holding public office. When she was just a Governor of a state with as many people in it as Austin Texas, she could get away with over-charging her expense account, billing the state for living in her house, illegally paying for transportation and housing of her children, and on and on. Once people started paying attention it wasn't worth doing anymore, and she had a book to dictate to a ghost writer!

If you believe Sarah Palin is anything but a pathological lying opportunist, you ARE delusional, and the evidence you present does nothing to convince anyone otherwise. If your best chance against Obama is a guaranteed defeat, shouldn't you be looking for another chance instead of doubling down on this one?

Democrats and Swing voters may not be happy with Obama, but we sure aren't going to let Palin win, she is so transparently corrupt it isn't even funny anymore. (Okay, a little funny, but the humor will be gone the day she registers.) And the RNC would be insane to bet on her. Maybe they really are that delusional, I don't know. You apparently are.

Charles said...

Thank you so much for your concern in which candidate MY PARTY nominates. Perhaps you could name a single one that beats her in the "PRO" list above?

PoliticalWiz said...

I consider it a great success to be hammered from BOTH left AND right!

And an honor, sirs.

@ Charles: NATIONAL polls! She will NOT get elected president from only Alaska. (Actually I could have put the period after "president".)

@Tony: So who is wrong, Euclid or Lobachev?

(It's coming!)

http://wizardofpolitics.blogspot.com/

fourth said...

See our comments here on how the internet is impacting our interactions- specifically the way we view and process information, and what it means for bloggers, journalists and consumers alike.

filistro said...

Charles, I'm not concerned with Palin's polls, "death panels" or whatever.

I'm telling you (and have been saying for several weeks now) that Sarah is soon going to be brought down by a major scandal and will not be relevant to the next election.

Charles said...

Just like in August, the Palins were going to "soon" file for divorce, right? Look, if you don't want to answer my "What if" questions either, that's fine with me. See you around : )

Persuter said...

The question is phrased wrongly; a living egg is alive, and every time a woman refrains from sexual intercourse and then menstruates she has killed a potential human being, had she only made some attempt to fertilize that egg.

This is flabbergastingly incorrect. An unfertilized egg is not a living entity at all, as it has no ability whatsoever to reproduce itself. To say nothing of the fact that it has nowhere near a complete human genetic code.

"Human life" without question scientifically begins at fertilization. Any attempt to claim otherwise is simply people attempting to illogically justify abortion. A fertilized egg is a living being with a unique human genetic code and the capability to reproduce itself. An unfertilized egg is none of these things. To claim these things are equivalent biologically is to take a flying leap away from reality.

Persuter said...

A fetus without a brain is not a person; I'd go so far as to say a fetus without a cortex is not a person. The only excuses for thinking that it IS a person are all based in irrational magical thinking with no basis in fact.

That is completely ridiculous. You're simply setting up arbitrary definitions for yourself with no basis in fact and then insisting everyone else's definitions are arbitrary. A fetus is a tangible, coherent, living entity with a human genetic code. As such it is biologically a human being.

Moreover, your insistence that a person must have the capacity for thought at present to acquire the right to life is patently unsustainable. If a person goes into a coma, and a doctor expresses 99% confidence that they will come out of the coma after nine months, we would be totally unjustified in killing them. Yet you insist that it's somehow different in this case because they're in a womb rather than outside of it - but decline to explain why. It's irrational, magical thinking - nothing more.

filistro said...

I just posted this in the other thread but it looks more relevant over here... (and I'd like Persuters opinion)

...Since we're getting all Biblical here: the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek word for soul is "pneuma" which the same as the word for "breath" (thus we have "pneumonia" etc.)

"Soul" and "breath" are the same thing.

So one would assume the divinely-inspired writers of the New Testament believed a fetus acquires a "soul" at the same time it is able to draw an independent breath... which is... what? 6 months gestation or more?

Works for me.

Opus 132 said...

@ PoliticalWiz

t seems to be trying to an end run around the Constitution and I strongly believe if passed it would be challenged in the US Supreme Court and found unconstitutional for violating Art 2 Sec 1 and Amend 12 of the Constitution.

There is absolutely nothing in the two provisions you cite which would cause it to be declared unconstitutional.They don't remotely touch on an elector casting his vote.Am I missing something?


P.S.It's Biship Ussher,not Usher,for those looking up how that idiot computed the Earth's age.

Persuter said...

(and I'd like Persuters opinion)

...Since we're getting all Biblical here: the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek word for soul is "pneuma" which the same as the word for "breath" (thus we have "pneumonia" etc.)

"Soul" and "breath" are the same thing.

So one would assume the divinely-inspired writers of the New Testament believed a fetus acquires a "soul" at the same time it is able to draw an independent breath... which is... what? 6 months gestation or more?


The writers of the New Testament were not Greek - common Greek was used as a lingua franca throughout the Middle East at the time, particularly for uneducated people, and as such was the obvious choice for people writing books for the common man. Jesus and his disciples spoke Aramaic.

Anyway, I'm not a Christian and am not referring to the writers of the New Testament. One does not have to be a Christian to believe that a human life is sacred.

Joseph said...

Tony C.,

1.) You say: "People that believe without reason, and especially against reason, are delusional, irrational by definition."

But your ridiculously long list of items you deem evidence of delusion do not accord with your definition.

Almost all of them are debatable or gross mischaracterizations of reasonable conservative views. A few items evidence that a person may be misinformed or overly optimistic, but certainly nothing that shows they "believe what they believe without reason." You just don't like their reasons.

I agree with PoliticalWiz that "some" is necessary, since a non-delusional person can believe many if not all of those things without being delusional.

2.) And as to God, people do have reasons for their belief. A lack of a scientific reason or testing is merely a lack of evidence using one set of tools. Theists could call you delusional for not recognizing the value of their reasoning and faith. Again, it comes down to you call those you disagree with "delusional."

3.) You make some sense about abortion except your unscientific assertion that "I am certain that in the first few weeks it is no more deserving of rights than thousands of other living things."

It is a reasonable viewpoint but not obviously correct. A fetus or a fertilized egg, absent a natural miscarriage or traumatic event, will become a full-fledged human being. This is unlike declaring someone dead for lack of brain activity. If one's Great-uncle Edgar was on life support with no brain activity and the decision was made to pull the plug, one would be right to hesitate if he suddenly raised his arm. You would apparently support dashing to the plug to pull it from the wall before any miraculous blip appeared on the monitor.

The fetus will miraculously raise an arm if given time. I'm not saying abortion should always be illegal based on this fact. I am pointing out the substantive difference with tumors and brain-dead people.

4.) logic is always called arrogance when it punctures delusions.

Calling people delusional because you disagree is arrogant. If we argued about a substantive issue, we may both be left feeling that the other is 'just not getting it.' You have an excess of faith in your ability to reason and would declare too many people delusional.

brian said...

Debating abortion is pointless. The real issue is the Constitution. The Constitution is supposed to represent "univeral beliefs" among all Americans. Contentious issues on which their was no "universal belief" were supposed to be left to people in each state to decide whats best.
Then came Roe v Wade, where 9 unelected people decided that abortion in the first 3 months was a "universal belief", even though less than 50% of people support it. Sort of like the HC reform we'll get that few support. Those liberals know whats best for us.

Todd Dugdale said...

brian wrote:
"where 9 unelected people decided that abortion in the first 3 months was a "universal belief","

...which is way different than 9 unelected people deciding that a black man is not a human being, but rather property.
Ever heard of Dred Scott? Damn liberals, think they know what's best. It says right there in the Constitution that a black man is 3/5 of a person, not property.

It's also probably okay with you that 9 unelected people put The Decider in office, overruling those precious state rights. Damn liberals, think they know what's best.

Joseph said...

Mister Todd Dugdale,

Dred Scott was the worst kind of judicial liberalism. Bush v. Gore is comparable to Roe v. Wade in that the court imposed an arbitrary solution to a messy problem.

I admit some conservatives take their claims of "judicial activism" to extremes, but the examples you cite are examples of judicial liberalism.

brian said...

What, are you changing the subject? Bush v Gore was a tough call. I honestly think an amendment should be passed that any elections within 0.5% shall be decided by coin toss. No one "won" the race...it was a tie. Spending 3months in court is not going to make sure the "right" person wins.

Joseph said...

I agree with your point about the absurdity of making sure the "right" person wins.

And I agree about it being a tough call, but it was a rather ad hoc decision that the court said should not be used as precedent.

But you're right, that we shouldn't go too far on this non-sequitur...

Tony said...

I think Nate's general point is well made: it's as much and probably more about visibility than actuality.

Can't agree with DK's remark about alienation being the gap between perception and reality: as =dchol (or similar) said, it's all about self perception.

Isn't it also the case that the internet acts as a moderating influence because it is to an extent catharctic - providing for the expression of otherwise bottled up opinion, frustration etc?

Tony C. said...

@PoliticalWiz:

I presume you mean Euclidean or Hyperbolic geometry; and both are valid systems of geometry. One of Euclid's unprovable axioms was that parallel lines never meet. To most people that doesn't need to be proven. But if space is curved, then straight parallel lines DO meet; like lines of longitude on the Earth intersecting at the poles (the poles aren't special; at any point on a sphere we can draw a tangle of great circles that intersect at that point).

Hyperbolic geometry turns out to be useful in general relativity calculations, because Einstein's assumption is that space IS curved by various degrees around objects; so that orbits are actually straight lines.

If you are asking which one represents reality I'd guess neither one, they are probably both good approximations of reality that break down when pushed to extremes (like Newtonian and Einsteinian treatments of gravity). I'm not a physicist, but I'd guess we don't know enough to have a "geometry" that describes space well (i.e. can be used to make accurate predictions) at the quark level. Or maybe I'm wrong and Euclidean works just great.

Tony C. said...

@Persuter:

An unfertilized egg is not a living entity at all, as it has no ability whatsoever to reproduce itself.

That is not the definition of life; millions of men and women are sterile and have no ability to reproduce themselves. Are they not alive?

Cancerous tumors reproduce and are made of human tissue. Should they have rights?

"Human life" without question scientifically begins at fertilization.

Agreed. The question is when do human rights begin?

More relevantly, what is the purpose of our laws against murder? They ensure our liberty. If we do not prohibit murder, we have anarchy and slavery of the weak by the strong. Jefferson's axiom was a right to life and liberty, and the right to at least pursue happiness.

A fetus without a brain has no ability, no desires, no hopes and dreams for the future, no pride, no shame, no happiness and no unhappiness, no fear and feels no joy. A brainless fetus is no different than a tumor. It should have no rights.

If a person goes into a coma, ...

Ahh, but to go into a coma one must have a brain. You don't come out of a coma by growing a whole new brain; you come out by repairing the brain you've got.

Presumably that existing brain is still capable of conscious thought, and that is why it still has a right to life.

A person that has gone into a coma already had rights, and I am not arguing somebody must be conscious to retain their right to life; otherwise any of us could be legally killed in our sleep.

However, once brain death occurs, the body no longer has any right of self-determination or any right to life. It will never again have a conscious thought, it is incapable of fear or any other emotion. It is not a person anymore, and not entitled to rights.

A brainless fetus has never had rights, has never been capable of thinking for itself, and is not a person either.

Potential is a red herring. Every living cell in your body is capable of reproduction and contains your entire genetic code (okay, say 99% of them), and with the assistance of technology every one of them is a potential human. Does your spit have a right to life? No.

Yet you insist that it's somehow different in this case because they're in a womb rather than outside of it - but decline to explain why.

As I explained, it is different because a person outside of the womb already has a brain and rights, a fetus inside the womb does not have a brain and and never has had one, and it is senseless to give rights to a brainless thing just because it is possible for it to grow a brain.

This is not magical thinking, it is rational thinking. We don't jail people because they might become criminals. (Okay, we didn't use to do.)

And if a fire starts on the stove, we don't just let it burn because that is nature's course: We put it out so it doesn't ruin our life. Now, how do we know it will ruin our life? Maybe if our house burns down, and we have to start over, then somehow our life will be better. Maybe we will make friends with a neighbor, who has a great business idea, and we would both become rich beyond our dreams, and retire to a far bigger and better house with a much better stove and much less flammable kitchen!

Maybe, but we put the fire out anyway because as persons we have the right to self-determination and the right to decide for ourselves what we think is right for us, and the fire is not a person and has no right to grow into an inferno, and no right to ruin our life.

The fetus is the same way. Of course it is a clump of human cells and alive and therefore "human life." But the mother of a brainless fetus should have as much right to extinguish it as she has to put out a stove fire; for the same reason: She has the right to choose her future, and the brainless fetus does not.

Tony C. said...

@Joseph:

I believe I answer some of your objections in my response to Persuter.

Emotional reasons are by definition not rational. Belief in God because one cannot imagine any alternative is not a reason; lack of imagination is not an excuse for belief.

As for my Uncle Edgar, if he raises his arm that is clear evidence of brain activity, thus reason to suspect the equipment that is measuring zero brain activity, and reason to not just hesitate but reason to start all over with new equipment, new technicians, and a new doctor.

I would not support "rushing" to kill him any more than I'd support killing him in the first place; you insult my respect for the rights of living people.

I am pointing out the substantive difference with tumors and brain-dead people.

No you are not; the substantive difference is that people we can even suspect are brain-dead have brains which make them people. They already have rights, and deserve them because they have, in the past, demonstrated emotions, conscious thoughts, and voluntary action.

The substantive difference is that a brainless fetus has never done any of this, has never had a conscious thought or any emotion. Giving it rights is roughly analogous to giving a tumor rights, it is just flesh without any thoughts whatsoever.

As I told Persuter, what potentially might happen or even would probably happen is immaterial; the mother of a brainless fetus already has the right of self-determination and should have the right to choose her future, like we all do.

You have an excess of faith in your ability to reason and would declare too many people delusional.

This is untrue; as a scientist my "faith" in my reasoning is immaterial, Faith and trust are emotions and neither count for anything.

All that counts is the argument and the counter-arguments, and whether they hold water. Your counter-arguments do not hold water.

PoliticalWiz said...

@ brian
Nine unelected people. Wrong!!!!!

The proper term is:
Nine Supreme Court justices sitting as specified by the Constitution of the United States; nominated by the President, confirmed (elected) by the Senate.

You whiners about the judicial branch just never get that concept. The Constitution! IT set forth the branch AND the process AND the length of service. JUST like it did the other branches.

Don't like the Constitution? Then either get an amendment passed to change it of go somewhere else!

Jacob said...

PoliticalWiz said...

"Sorry, I don't necessarily believe the Elector College is "broken". It is simply doing what it is designed to do."


Right, and that's a fair point of contention--whether what it was designed to do is still what's best for our nation. By "broken" I mean not working as we need it to, not that it doesn't work as designed (perhaps a different word would have been better).

President of the United States is after all the only elected office in the world where a person can win without receiving the most votes, and many believe the benefits of the EC are not worth such costs.

However, the National Popular Vote route is not at all unconstitutional. States have the absolute right to determine the selection of their electors, and if they want to award them to the candidate who won nationally, they can do so without an amendment, just as the switch from state legislatures choosing free electors to the people of the state electing candidates directly and thereby binding the electors--all happened without a constitutional amendment.

brian said...

Well shoot, lets have the SC decide HC reform then. Congress makes laws for a reason...it is the branch closest to the people. Why have a Congress decide on abortion, gay marriage, HC reform, taxes if we can just have 9 people who don't know any of the American peoples concerns decide everything.

Course they'll find "privacy" in the Constitution, but somehow find that this HC scheme violates nothing in the Constition. Thank god, at least during FDR's reign, the SC had the balls to strike down socialist laws.

Tony C. said...

@PoliticalWiz (re: Constitution)

Yes, precisely. The founding fathers believed it was the job of courts to counteract the will of the people and majority rule; they believe in inalienable rights that did not depend on unanimous, majority or any consent of anybody.

Those inalienable rights include freedom from the oppression of religion, even if the majority hold that religion, and therefore freedom from the dictatorial pronouncements of Christians insisting that abortion is murder, because they believe without any evidence that souls even exist that fertilized eggs must have souls. It is a religious belief they are trying to impose upon others by force of law.

GPL said...

Great post Nate! I think the question of the year is whether the Internet will make the discourse more partisan. I commented on this and your post on my own blog. gregorypaxton.wordpress.com

brian said...

The coursts are not supposed to protect the minority...unless the majority put it in the Constitution. Quit pushing this "the courts are dogooders of the last resort" myth.

Love how any belief a Christian has is religious and therefore must be banned. Beliefs based on atheism, now those are pure. I say gay marriage is based on your pagan beliefs and is therefore unconstitional.

The amendment actually says Congress won't establish a religion or prohibit free excercise. It doesn't protect you from religious views.

Bartbuster said...

Love how any belief a Christian has is religious and therefore must be banned. Beliefs based on atheism, now those are pure. I say gay marriage is based on your pagan beliefs and is therefore unconstitional.

Is there anyone who can translate this idiotic gibberish into english?

Tony C. said...

@brian: What a stunning display of ignorance.

First, courts do not make laws, they uphold them or strike them down. That is why they exist. Abortion was entirely legal in the USA until states started passing laws against abortion. The Supreme Court did not legalize abortion, it struck down the laws that had been added to make it a crime. The courts (and Supreme Court) are there to decide what to do when laws conflict with each other and when laws are ambiguously written and require human interpretation, and the Supreme Court is there to undo laws that conflict with the Constitution. They didn't legalize abortion; it was legal all along and they found it was unconstitutional for states to make it illegal.

That is not activism, that is undoing an illegal restriction to rights.

Second, atheism is not a faith, it is the absence of faith. By definition, a faith is belief in something without evidence. Atheists do not rely on belief without evidence, so they have no faith.

Paganism can rightly be described as a faith; but homosexuality is not a precept of paganism, and homosexuals do not in general claim they are practicing the rites of any religion by engaging in homosexual acts. But your argument is ass-backwards, dufus, because if they were they would presumably have that right just as Christians have the right to practice their religion!

Third, we don't care what religious beliefs Christians (or Pagans) have, and we don't ban those beliefs. What we strive to overturn is the Christians forcing legislators to enact laws that impose Christian morality on non-Christians.

You can believe whatever you want, what you cannot do is force me to abide by your beliefs, or respect your beliefs, or even not ridicule your fool beliefs.

brian said...

Love how lib posts always start with an insult. Clearly a sign of a great mind at work.

A religion is effectively a belief system. Christianity is what many call their belief system as related to the afterlife/morals/etc/ Many others call atheism their belief system in this area. The 1st amendment said noone is barred from having this atheistic belief system. It doesn't say they are entitled to barring the Christian believers from having their views represented in govt.

I see no difference between "religion" and a political belief system. The govt will not ban conservatism (although my guess is they'll try) but liberals are free to establish laws that reflect their supposed majority.

Bartbuster said...

Love how lib posts always start with an insult

There are plenty of lib posts in here that don't start with an insult. Generally they only start with an insult when someone like you says something moronic. You post a lot of moronic crap, so it probably just seems like everyone is insulting you.

Bartbuster said...

but liberals are free to establish laws that reflect their supposed majority

Elections have consequences, tough guy.

brian said...

Wow, 2 straight posts from you and not a thoughtful reponse anywhere. My guess is "moronic crap" is code for "I gots nothing".

brian said...

Do you or do you not have an opinion on the afterlife/a moral code? If you're a human being, you likely do. If so, thats your "religion". You can't just call yourself Switzerland and say your belief in nothing is "neutrality" and shall be reflected in all govt laws.

shrinkers said...

As a practicing Pagan myself, let me confirm that there is nothing in most denominations of modern Pagan religion that requires or encourages homosexuality -- or that forbids or discourages it either. It's simply not an issue either way.

shiloh said...

Bartbuster said...

@brain: Love how any belief a Christian has is religious and therefore must be banned. Beliefs based on atheism, now those are pure. I say gay marriage is based on your pagan beliefs and is therefore unconstitional.

Bartbuster said...

Is there anyone who can translate this idiotic gibberish into english?

Tony C. said...

@brian: What a stunning display of ignorance.

brian said...

Love how lib posts always start with an insult. Clearly a sign of a great mind at work.

brian said...

Wow, 2 straight posts from you and not a thoughtful reponse anywhere.
~~~~~~~~~~


lol cut brian some slack as his elevator obviously doesn't go to the top floor!

As well as being a dim bulb, he also has problems w/women and oh the irony re: insults:

brian said...

Filistro-

And I call you a cunt...cuz...well you are one.

I hope you like cunt as much as I like teabagger....er the word I mean.

brian said...

Yo bitch, I wish you'd come call me a TB to my face, I'd slap you to next month. Cunt.
December 11, 2009 11:55 AM
~~~~~~~~~~


and I honestly think an amendment should be passed that any elections within 0.5% shall be decided by coin toss. ... Priceless!

again brian, when you're in a hole stop digging ...

one never gets a second chance to make a first impression

Bartbuster said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Bartbuster said...

Do you or do you not have an opinion on the afterlife/a moral code? If you're a human being, you likely do. If so, thats your "religion".

No, it isn't "religion", you friggin moron. I have seen no evidence for an "afterlife", therefor I tend to think it is probably nothing but a religious fantasy. My view isn't "religion", it is just an evaluation of the available evidence. When evidence for an "afterlife" becomes available, I will re-evaluate my views.

You, on the other hand, have already decided that you don't care about evidence. THAT is religion.

And you are certainly free to believe what you want, but you don't get to force what you believe on

Tony C. said...

There is no afterlife, I have no soul, when I die I am gone forever.

I am an atheist with a moral code. I do not believe in anything supernatural at all in any way. What I do believe in is human emotion, which I have and I detect in others. What I do believe is that positive emotions (love, affection, humor, satisfaction, etc) are qualitatively "better" than negative emotions (fear, hunger, despair, anger, hatred, etc).

I believe, with ample evidence, that life is not a zero-sum game; two people can have more fun together than the sum of fun they would have alone, and a group of people working together can export a great deal of positive emotion with very little negative emotion involved.

My moral code is derived from the consequences forced upon other people whose emotions I believe have inherent value, it has nothing to do with supernatural retribution or supernatural consequences of any kind.

This is not a religion. Religions entail faith in the supernatural, I do not. You do not get to redefine the meaning of "religion" by fiat or decree to fit your argument; words don't change meaning just because it would help you out.

I did not demand atheism be reflected in all government laws, the founding fathers clearly demanded a non-theistic government, and that is reflected in the Constitution, their writings, and the written records of their own decisions.

Perhaps in your imaginary after-life, you can complain to them.

MarkinIL said...

I think the good that can be salvaged from Brian's convoluted definition of religion is that both religion and atheism are ideologies.

That is, they are belief systems. The evidence used for these belief systems (and all other belief systems, including political etc.) may vary in quality and quantity. Additionally, people have more or less stringent definitions of 'evidence' and 'quality'. Research from a variety of disciplines back up this general point.

Where Brian loses me, and many of the other posters, is the notion implicit (ok, perhaps explicit) in his argument that beliefs not held or advocated by Christians are in some ways the result of the atheist belief system and thus should be separate from the state.

I have a couple of problems with this. First, Christians (like most other groups with well over a million individuals from around the globe) are actually a highly diverse population. Some Christians believe that gay pastors are just fine with them. Would this be an atheistic belief? While may religious people in the United States hold onto traditional values, this is not the case for all Christians (or religious people).

Second, I personally don't care if religious beliefs are in the legal system as long as those beliefs hold water outside of the religious ideology. To pick an easy example, many religious advocate helping the poor and less fortunate. I would hope that laws and public policies directed at helping those groups would not be dismissed because they are religious (and they aren't dismissed for this reason).* Helping the poor is a social good.

Similarly, I don't care if atheistic beliefs 'infiltrate' the legal system as long as they promote social good.

The difference often comes in the evidence used to define social good. While study after study suggests that decreases in inequality improve the social good, no research supports the denial of marriage rights to gays and lesbians. Thus, I'll take the (potentially) religious belief to reduce inequality, but reject the anti-gay belief.

So brian, while I respect your religious beliefs I encourage you to use reliable evidence--rather than pithy assertions--to back up the use of these beliefs to influence public policy.

*I understand that there is an argument to be made that would suggest that the religious don't care about the poor because they support hierarchy enhancing social and economic policy. While I agree that the chose in policies is mistaken, I think this is a debate over policy (tax rates, HC, etc.), rather than the final goal (helping the poor).

PS. Tony C. RE: emotions, ever read anything by Jon Haidt at the University of Virginia? He espouses a similar view.

Tony C. said...

@MarkinIL:

Atheism is a weak ideology. It is literally in the sense it is a system of ideas, but usually the word ideology connotes some sense of societal goals, and atheism per se is just a singular rejection of any belief in the supernatural. That singular idea leads to many other ideas, but it hardly seems appropriate to call a single foundational idea a "system."

It is more of a state of being, don't you think?

Although atheism is definitionally a belief system (we atheists could presumably form a list of unambiguous declarative sentences that we and only we hold to be true), I hesitate to call it a belief system because I feel that the word belief stands a bit too close to the word faith, and most people use them interchangeably, especially people of faith. There are bumper stickers and wood carvings in the mall these days that just say BELIEVE, and these are bought overwhelmingly by the religious.

Re: Emotions: I haven't read Jon Haidt; I will keep the name in mind. My moral view arises from my independent, scientifically minded analysis. I say that because I find most philosophy to be akin to religion, founded on unjustified (and often unjustifiable) assumptions. I hate that, I am a pragmatic scientist that makes stuff that works in the real world, not a theorist spinning cotton candy castles in the clouds.

Physical pain, psychic pain, romantic love, joy, grief, lust, anger, pride, hatred, paternal and maternal love, friendship, elation, guilt, security, empathy, self-respect --- These (and more) are the observable fundamentals.

They don't have to be quantifiable to be observable, we aren't going to reduce morality to some algebraic equation. We don't have to know where they come from to work with them (although it is clear they are biological in nature). Emotions can be felt and can be seen in others, and typical people know what is meant by increasing the good and decreasing the bad without ever attaching numbers to them.

Morality is based in the emotions of yourself and others, if the emotions and physical pain did not exist then no act could do harm to anybody, because nothing would be seen by anybody as being "good" or "not good."

My conclusion is that morality is a system of fairness. Things are morally wrong when they are unfair. That doesn't lead to communism or whatever; I do not see why it would be inherently unfair for one person to be rich and another poor.

I do believe in some limited socialism because I think it is fair for everybody in a society to get an equal start in terms of access to education, nutrition, and a safe environment (safe from both toxins and physical violence and personal security).

I do believe in progressive taxes because I think what is fair is equalizing the psychic pain of paying taxes, and that demands the rich pay a larger percentage of their income than do the poor, because by definition the rich are less deprived (if deprived at all) of the things they need by paying taxes.

I have been told by philosophy fans this is a pretty simplistic philosophy; but I truly do not care. I have taken the issue as far as I am able to proceed on observable phenomenon, and it is a working system for me. As far as I can tell, their systems don't work for them, they don't have practical application. They talk about them like discussing the plot of an ongoing drama series; fun to talk about but completely divorced from the real world. So I leave them to it. I have my little set of moral thinking tools here, and by focusing on observable effects I feel like I contribute more to the system than I take out of it.

Not everything has to be complex to work, and positive emotions do not require permanence or some infinite significance for me to recognize them as valuable.

Opus 132 said...

@ Tony C.

This is as fine a personal moral code as I've ever seen!

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