I've written several thousand words about health care over the past 48 hours, and tens of thousands of words over the past six months. Some of those words have been a bit, uh, confrontational. So let's try this approach instead. This is my summation -- my elevator pitch for passing health care reform:
Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln are probably willing to sign off on $900 billion in public subsidies so that poor and sick people can have better access to health care. Is there really no way we can make this work for us?
To anticipate several of the objections to this:
But it's not real reform! You're right: the bill is not "real reform" in the sense of something that fundamentally alters the structure of the current, predominately private, predominately employer-based insurance system. The only solutions that I'm aware of that might do that are single payer and Wyden-Bennett, either of which I'd prefer to what's on the table now -- but neither of which are liable to be politically viable any time soon. By the way, I don't think a bill with a public option would constitute fundamental reform either -- it would be better, but it's still tinkering around the edges of a flawed system.
But it doesn't control costs! No, the bill is not particularly great, or even particularly good, when it comes to cost control -- especially without the public option. But, it is liable to help at the margins. According to CMS, the Senate's bill would increase total health care spending nominally -- by about 0.7 percent. However, in so doing, it would cover about 10 percent more people than the status quo does -- so this represents something like a 9 percent efficiency gain. Now, those estimates were made before the public option was removed, which was expected to reduce the bill's tab by about $25 billion, or about 3 percent of the total outlay. Wipe out the public option, and you reduce the efficiency gain further, to somewhere in the mid-high single digits. It's not great, but it's something. It certainly doesn't make the problem worse.
But it's not efficiency that matters -- it's the total amount of spending! In the long run, you're probably right. Eventually, Americans will need to be willing to do one of the following: (i) fundamentally restructure the health care system; (ii) tolerate worse health outcomes in exchange for less spending; (iii) tolerate material trade-offs in other areas of the economy; (iv) take potentially catastrophic risks with the national debt; (v) find a way to grow GDP at 5 percent per year for the foreseeable future. Given that (v) is unlikely, we'll indeed need to make some tough choices -- and to some extent, indeed, this bill just kicks that can down the road.
But in the medium term, I'm not sure how persuasive this side of the argument is, especially coming from liberals. If the concern were the total amount of health care spending, why not just wipe out Medicare and Medicaid, let poor and old people grow accustomed to shorter life expectancies, and call it a day?
But the subsidies aren't generous enough! Now, here is where I have a great deal more sympathy -- $900 billion in public subsidies might be nice, but that money might be distributed in the wrong way. In particular, there's not quite enough assistance to people between roughly 150 and 300 percent of poverty, for whom health care will become much (!!) more affordable but perhaps not quite affordable enough.
This is a problem that should be fixed. And it's one, I think, that probably can be fixed: if not on the Senate floor than in conference, and if not in conference than at some point between now and implementation in 2014. Perhaps, for example, the House's structure for subsides should be adopted, which are slightly more generous to people making less than 250 percent of poverty but slightly less so to people making more than 250 percent. Perhaps people with children need to receive a bit more assistance as compared with childless couples. Perhaps, since the bill projects to realize some deficit savings, those savings can be shaved a little bit. These are disputes about numbers -- and disputes over numbers are generally easier to resolve than debates over structures. And since these numbers impact people's bottom lines, indeed, they're something that all Democrats should be receptive to -- it's not like Ben Nelson wants lower-middle class families to be teed off because they're forced to buy not-quite-affordable insurance any more than Chris Dodd does. So get it fixed -- and pass the bill. The alternative, remember, is that these families have a choice between buying insurance at an absolutely back-breaking price point (in excess of $10,000 per year for the premiums alone), and going without health care coverage at all.
But that money isn't really going to poor people -- it's going to Cigna! Then there's an argument I have much less sympathy for: that the $900 billion is not ultimately going to disadvantaged people, but rather to insurance companies. Some of the money, indeed, will turn into insurance company profits. But how much? Probably not very much: most likely about $30 billion of the $900 billion, or about 3.3 percent, which is the average profit margin in the insurance industry. The insurance industry is actually not very profitable -- it may be inefficient, but it is not especially profitable. The vast majority of that $900 billion goes to improve health outcomes for poor and sick people.
Keep in mind that, although the insurance companies would be allowed to add some highly profitable customers under this bill (young, healthy people for whom health insurance is a bad deal) it will also add some highly unprofitable ones -- people with pre-existing conditions, whom they will now be required to accept. (You can't really have one without the other: if you banned limitations on rescissions or pre-existing conditions but did not have an individual mandate, premiums would skyrocket.) Also, the insurance industry is taxed directly under this bill, and is also penalized indirectly through the excise tax, which will reduce insurance spending among a generally profitable set of customers.
The idea of calling this an insurance company "bailout" is not really credible. The bill would preserve the private, for-profit insurance system rather than kill it -- but it's not much of a bailout. Indeed, I've seen virtually no evidence that it would in fact improve insurance company profit margins, on either a percentage or an absolute basis.
A slightly longer version of the elevator pitch. So, we've talked a lot about what the bill is not. It's not structural reform. What is it, then? At the end of the day, it's a big bleeping social welfare program -- the largest social welfare program to be implemented since the Great Society. And that's really what it's been all along: fundamental reform like single-payer or Wyden-Bennett was never really on the table. The bill comes very close, indeed, to establishing what might be thought of as a right to access to health care: once it's been determined that people with pre-existing conditions cannot be denied health care coverage, and that working class people ought to receive assistance so that they can afford health care coverage, it will be very hard to remove those benefits. It's the sort of opportunity that comes around rarely -- and one that liberals will greatly regret if they turn down.
12.16.2009
Health Care: The Elevator Pitch
by Nate Silver @ 7:53 PM...see also health care, progressives
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175 comments
Left out of virtually all calculations is the added productivity to the economy when people are generally more healthy and less likely to suffer economic catastrophe due to health care needs.
A more productive economy generates more Tax revenue thereby saving all kinds of money left and right.
I commend you on your good common sense and practicality here.
Would that more people in the Democratic party were good at that part of things.
(You can't really have one without the other: if you banned limitations on rescissions or pre-existing conditions but did not have an individual mandate, premiums would skyrocket.)
That's exactly why we need a public option- otherwise, the mandate is screwing over a huge number of Americans who don't want to buy health insurance- primarily younger, lower-middle-class who won't see much in the way of subsidies but will still be forced to buy health care they don't want. Far from taxing the rich, this bill puts most of the strain on (surprise) the middle class.
Without a mandate, passing subsidies and some of the other provisions would be acceptable to me, with the provision that real reform is not ignored in the long run.
HCR will basically lead the the Massachusetts situation. The expansion of health care will drive up costs and force the system to address cost control in a serious manner. But at that time it will be cost control of a system that covers the vast majority of the population.
Congress is going to have to come back to HCR again and again and passing this bill establishes a precedent that HCR is not the third rail of politics.
I also commend Nate on his good sense and practicality, but let's not lose sight of something else - this is a moral issue.
It was a moral issue when Joe Lieberman was trying to stop the bill, and it's no less a moral issue now. Thousands of lives will be saved if this legislation passes.
Nate,
It's a reasonable argument. On the flip side, $900 Billion is a lot of money, and that's the low estimate, as these costs just will go up over time, and above current estimates.
Do I understand that it's hard to make ends meet with increasingly expensive insurance? Sure. Simultaneously, it's the expense of insurance...not that people aren't well off... which is the problem.
@Shankar,
You're playing the "Moral issue" card, Do Morals play a role? Sure. Are they absolute? No.
If you really wanted the Moral issue card, we should be taking this $900 Billion dollars, and shovelling into aid for Sub-Saharan Africa.
But that's not gonna happen. You and I both know why...
C'mon man! The story is no less dense no matter how you try to package it. This isn't a packaging problem, it's a content problem.
Anything that tries to salvage chunks from the prior grandiose malarkey still will not be fiscally responsible and will not help make health care more affordable in aggregate.
Just because the public option was the lightning rod doesn't mean that the rest of it was widely acceptable.
I guess it's gotta be death by a thousand cuts before the pols recognize that the public views such efforts as more likely to make things worse than better.
why is more not being said about the medicaid expansion? this alone is HUGE and arguably makes it worth passing the whole bill. making access to health insurance for lower-income americans, especially many of these college students graduating into low-paying work during a recession, much easier is a VERY big thing.
well at least you didnt call those of us who dont like the bill batshit crazy anymore...
i think the bill stinks. i think lieberman stinks. i think nelson stinks. i could go on for a while about smelly things and people, but it wont save lives or help a sick person.
i have to accept this bill. i will just hold my nose a little to do so, but i do support it. and since i not only held my nose during the bush years but also tried to stop the sick to my stomach feeling. a a little skunk running past me to actually help someone i can handle.
i suggest other liberals can come to this conclusion also.
It is understandable that the Health Insurance Industry was villified in the course of all this. For one, the practice of denial based on pre-existing conditions and recission is pretty repugnant from the public's point of view. We are also pretty disgusted any time we hear of an executive making a seven or eight figures a year. Finally, Health Insurance operates in many ways as a black box. What is it they do?
One, they shop ahead of time in bulk for health care on behalf of their membership trying to get the lowest prices. Two, they try to learn as much about their potential customers as legally possible to try to predict what it will likely cost to cover their bills. Three, they mystify the process so that customers can be convinced to pay the price which maximizes revenue.
Once pre-existing condition exclusions and recission are outlawed we begin to get a lot less disgusted with the process. Once the insurance exchanges are established, the black box becomes demystified. This leaves them shopping in bulk for the best prices which is exactly what we want them to do.
We are getting used to executives making huge salaries, and when it really comes down to it, we are going to choose the insurance company on the exchange who quotes the lowest premiums (while a few of us will also look at the quality of the companies contracts and calculate the overall most affordable plan).
Finally, read Atul Gawande's New Yorker piece if you are interested in a hopeful account of the possibilities in cost savings.
R. Graham said...
a huge number of Americans who don't want to buy health insurance- primarily younger, lower-middle-class who won't see much in the way of subsidies but will still be forced to buy health care they don't want.
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What percentage of the middle class is without insurance? The vast majority of people in the middle class already receive employer based coverage.
And for those who don't but are members of the middle class, why should they be allowed to dodge he system, when they obviously tax and strain the system when they go to the emergency room?
I don't see why anyone should be sympathetic to members of the middle class who can afford coverage, but won't buy coverage.
i think there is an unquestioned assumption in Nate's argument, which is that the Senate bill eliminates bans on preexisting conditions. how about loopholes? my understanding is that insurers could still up prices on people with preexisting conditions, or up prices on older people. that would de facto leave them uninsured. i'd need to see that these loopholes were closed before considering supporting this.
also, i'd read that Obama's principle of no lifetime limits has a loophole - the bill apparently now allows insurers to set annual limits. that would have to go.
finally, the mandate only works if there is a mechanism to make the mandate affordable. otherwise this is just a paternalistic way of screwing the poor.
clean these things up, and then i can hold my nose and support it. otherwise it is garbage.
Go ahead. Pass a bill supportedby 32% of the American people and watch how long it takes their succussors to repeal it. Stupid bill and stupid Democrats if they enact this bill.
One objection Nate conveniently left out of his list was the assertion that insurance companies will find loopholes in the bill to continue to drop/deny coverage to sick people/poor risks. Nate hasn't responded to these claims at all.
Rock on, Nate!
The other objection Nate doesn't mention at all is the real and political cost of the mandate. Forcing people to buy into the system only works if they're buying into a good system. And politically, forcing people to buy into a losing system is a huge loser.
So let me get this right, Nate, you want taxpayers to spend close to a trillion dollars to "to help at the margins?" That doesn't make sound long-term fiscal policy and it's morally irresponsible. We have worked and should continue to work towards a workable solution that efficiently and effectively uses dollars wisely so that whatever health system is reliable and sustainable for as many people as possible. Just throwing money at the problem is immoral because it burdens the next generation with a failed system. We have a moral obligation to get this right: guarantee access to health care service to as many (if not all) people as possible through the most efficient use of available resources as possible.
Michael said...
Go ahead. Pass a bill supportedby 32% of the American people and watch how long it takes their succussors to repeal it. Stupid bill and stupid Democrats if they enact this bill.
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Have you ever heard of the filibuster?
Once something passes, it's impossible to overturn it.
This bill is now so unpopoular that to pass it will kill the Dem base and lead to a GOP takeover even as the job picture improves next year. The sticker shock will come into picture as we realize there is no cost control. This will likely end Obama's presidency. At that point the reforms that kick in in 2013 will be repealed. Kill the bill now!
actually the loss of support for health care reform in the new NBC poll comes from liberals being mad about losing the PO
What percentage of the middle class is without insurance? The vast majority of people in the middle class already receive employer based coverage.
Fourteen million people.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/58533
And for those who don't but are members of the middle class, why should they be allowed to dodge he system, when they obviously tax and strain the system when they go to the emergency room?
Most of the families I'm talking about could afford E.R. bills for the vast majority of treatments, so this is a moot point. Almost of all the current unpaid ER bills are coming from lower class people who would receive subsidies for their insurance.
I don't see why anyone should be sympathetic to members of the middle class who can afford coverage, but won't buy coverage.
Because you're forcing them to spend almost twenty percent of their income on insurance they don't want for treatments they can almost always afford anyway, without any gov't aid whatsoever? If that doesn't seem wrong to you I don't know what to say.
This was all formulated and laid out waaay ahead of time.
1-finance committee would approve Bachus with Snow's help
2- Reid would put in a public option to appease the liberals.
3- red dogs and pubs would oppose the PO (didnt every one know this already?)
4- Reid would pull it out and leave on the table exactly what was originally on the table and bring in a republican or two in the process.
Every thing... I mean EVERYTHING was scoped out far in advance by Emanuel, Reid, and Snowe.
What has failed is the timing. The GOP set out stretch this thing out so far that the public would grow tired of it.
Guess what?
Republicans are far and away the smartest party when it comes to forming public (swing) opinion.
I hate that you are right. But you are correct.
The only explanation I can find is that you don't understand what it is like to be barely getting by with kids. Emptywheel explains better than I can.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/15/health-care-on-the-road-to-neo-feudalism/
This "Bill Killers" guy is really getting on my nerves. Just between you and me, I think little Bill is a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
I think Bill Killers should be locked in a very small soundproof room and forced to listen to old "Sonny and Cher" tunes until the grownups have finished with the difficult but necessary business of reforming health care.
Nate... you go, guy. You're RIGHT on this.
One problem with reading blogs is that so many people think politics is a blood sport that makes MSNBC more interesting than ESPN. Every once in a while, politics is also about real people. We're not entitled to a Democratic President and 59 Democratic Senators (because we now know that (Liebrman's base is Republican and Independent) too often. Pass the bill. And let's move on.
The insurance companies will make more than their current 3.3% profit under this bill. Presumably part of the reason health care is so expensive is because the hospitals pass the cost that they cannot recover from the uninsured to the insured. If nobody is uninsured, theoretically, health care costs should go down. But there is no price control in this bill so we can expect business as usual premium increases while the insurance companies have to pay less for services.
As for Jenny saying no sympathy for the middle class because they all have employer based insurance, I am in the middle class and my 'employer provided insurance' is more expensive to me than if I were to buy insurance on my own, so I dropped out of my employers insurance and purchased my own better insurance individually. My point is that just because you have an insurance plan through your employer doesn't mean it is affordable, even for someone in the middle class. I pay 16% of my income to health insurance as it is. It was 19% under my employer's plan. How is that affordable?
R. Graham said...
First you cite a wingnut analysis. I can't accept any analysis from "Conservative News Service". You might as well cite Fox News.
Second, you still haven't stated why people who have the means AND discretionary income to buy insurance, but decline to do so should receive any sympathy.
It's interesting that most of the opposition to Nate's posts today is from "progressives" who make the argument that the bill isn't strong enough. Given what we've seen in the past few weeks, it would seem obvious that this was never going to be fixed. The Repugs never broke ranks, and the Democrats had to constantly deal with Blue Dogs posturing for the home folks plus Joe Lieberman posturing for Aetna.
Nobody could have known, when the bill was first proposed, that it would play out this way, but it certainly seemed like one of the more likely outcomes. As Nate has pointed out, things have actually IMPROVED since the summer, when Max Baucus was giving away the store to people who never had any intention of voting for anything the Dems proposed. Given the fact that a minority in the Senate has the ability to block any bill, I think those who think Obama could somehow have done better than he has are drunk, and in their stupor think that Obama is Tom DeLay.
Look, any way you slice this bill, it is a wealth transfer bill. That's why the Repugs and the insurance comapnies and FOX News really oppose it -- IT IS GOING TO TRANSFER WEALTH FROM RICH PEOPLE TO THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE. The uninsured presently receive health care which is paid for by the insured, through charges passed on to the insurance companies by the doctors and hospitals and from the insurance companies on to the insured premium payers. Some of the burden also falls upon state and local taxpayers, who pay the costs of municipal hospitals.
That all changes now. If the bill passes, the burden is on the Federal budget and its relatively progressive tax system. The income taxes of hedge fund multi-millionaires, the capital gains taxes of billionaire entrepreneurs, the inheritance taxes taking some of the money away from preppies, the dividend taxes on coupon clippers -- all of this will now contribute to the process of caring for the health of those who cannot afford their own health insurance. Right now, they are putting it in their pockets and bitching about the fact that Obama might not continue Bush's tax policies after next year, and the middle class is footing that bill.
If progressives cannot see that this is a MONSTER step forward, then maybe they need to reevaluate what progressive means. When I was growing up, it meant closing, to at least some extent, the gulf between the rich and poor. This bill, warts and all, moves in that direction.
As for Obama, most of what I've said here he no doubt undertstands, and also no doubt knows that he cannot say it publicly, and so he hasn't.
But I can, and I have.
R. Graham said...
First you cite a wingnut analysis. I can't accept any analysis from "Conservative News Service". You might as well cite Fox News.
The figure in question (14 million people buying insurance themselves and not receiving subsidies) is a figure directly quoted from the CBO, with a source. CNS just happened to be the first link on Google when I went looking for it, I didn't even know they had a conservative slant.
If you want to dig through the CBO report yourself, feel free, I just figured you'd rather have some source than me just rattling off numbers.
Second, you still haven't stated why people who have the means AND discretionary income to buy insurance, but decline to do so should receive any sympathy.
I very much did: if 99 times out of 100 they can pay their medical bills out-of-pocket, why should they have to buy insurance? All you're doing is penalizing them for being healthy. If you're going to put increased strain on some group to subsidize healthcare, make it the wealthy, not the healthy.
Yay slasher... well said!
paul sickel said...
"This will likely end Obama's presidency. At that point the reforms that kick in in 2013 will be repealed. Kill the bill now!"
And your solution would be what? Let the bill fail, use up even more political capital, and go into 2010 with 'Pubs chanting that Democrats failed to do anything about health care?
If HCR fails do you really think we'll get any chance to pass other agenda items before the midterms? And really it seems unlikely that the GOP picks up 45 seats in the House, 20+ in the Senate, AND defeats Obama by 2012, and can thus repeal HCR. Nor would it be in their interest to do so if they could.
HCR might not be a winning issue anymore, but there's more at stake than political capital here. And at any rate any honest observer will agree that failing to pass the bill would be even worse for the Democrats.
Of course if the bill passes soon, we have more than ten months to pivot directly to jobs and financial regulation, and watch the Republicans squirm and try to weasel their way into explaining why we shouldn't create jobs or regulate their sponsors.
Really, subtle concern trolling is obnoxious enough; do you really have to make it so obvious?
Ron Smith said... The GOP set out stretch this thing out so far that the public would grow tired of it. Guess what? Republicans are far and away the smartest party when it comes to forming public (swing) opinion.
How precisely are is the GOP able to stretch any legislation out? The GOP does not have the votes to stop anything in either chamber of Congress.
The public is not "tired" of Dem government health insurance legislation, they are scared and pissed off. Why? The voters read the damn bills and were appalled. The Dems know this and pulled the plug on a reading of Socialist Barry Sanders' single payer amendment today.
What "stretched out" the process was a citizen rebellion which dressed down and scared the hell out of their Congress critters at dozens of townhall meetings across the country, a massive march on Washington followed by a series of smaller demonstrations outside of Congress, the 2009 Dem election losses and now polls showing popular opposition between the mid-50s to the low 60s. Endangered Dems simply do not want to vote themselves out of office next year.
Jenny,
so you think being mandated to spend 20% of your income on crappy, for-profit health insurance (with no price controls and ridiculous inflation) qualifies as "having the means"
that, my friend, is "batshit crazy"
I'm sorry Nate, but I'm done. Like many other progressives I'm just absolutely fucking DONE. I've had it with this bullshit. With a Democratic President and 60% majorities in the House & Senate we should not be compromising anything. We should be pushing our agenda through. Why isn't real reform on the table? That's what our country actually needs and it's what we voted for.
If this is all that's "on the table" then this country is fucking doomed. Seriously.
I. "The figure in question (14 million people buying insurance themselves and not receiving subsidies) is a figure directly quoted from the CBO, with a source."
Reread the webpage you cite -- there are no quotation marks in the text. Therefore it can not be a quote. Lets face it, the right wing constantly makes shit up and then tries to hide their hand by FALSELY citing a study.
II. you're arguing in bad faith. There will always be people who can pay their bill who will NEVERTHELESS face a catastrophic event (cancer, struck in the crosswalk by a hit and run driver) and they will not be able to pay for their bill, and those costs are passed on to everyone else. No free riders.
Josh said...
I'm sorry Nate, but I'm done.
==============================
Bye. See you in Tehran. Hopefully they'll be throwing flowers at President Palin's feet.
slasher, i am so tired of the rhetoric that financially this will only hit "hedge fund multi-millionaires, the capital gains taxes of billionaire entrepreneurs, the inheritance taxes taking some of the money away from preppies, the dividend taxes on coupon clippers" ????
are you nuts?
this will trickle down and plenty of people will feel the sting, and we're not all evil bastards. stop hating anyone with even moderate means.
still i supported the notion of hcr, when it was true hcr. what we have now is garbage
no thanks
Nate,
I think there is a real problem if it turns out the affordability of the bill is lacking for the middle class even if the medicaid expansion and the lower class subsidies are affordable.
As you noted, just because the bill may now make HC more affordable than it would be, doesn't make it actually affordable. Combined this with weak regulatory language that I believe Marcy Wheeler and others contend will not actually end recission or prevent bankruptcies for those chronically ill and you're left with many many voters wondering where all the money went and who's getting covered. Finally the idiots decided it was more important to wait for the benefits to kick in until 2014 (Because of the CBO score I believe) instead of providing tangible benefits soon.
That's where I see we are at today and I think the potential for improvement of the bill is severely hampered (as well as the Democratic majority) if the bill is passed as it stands right now.
But that's also why it's good that liberals are raising the stakes. There is still a process to continue through and with the right pressure, maybe the language can be tightened, the subsidies can be increased, and at least some substantial benefits will kick in sooner rather than later. It's probably wishful thinking but supposedly Obama told Lieberman he's going to have to be accommodating so maybe we'll get some support. But without this pressure what we are left with are the same idiots who brought us this bill in its current watered down form in control until the vote, potentially leading to further dilution.
Bart... you're right. (Well, we all knew that... I mean, you're correct ;-)
It was, indeed, really unwise of the Dems to take all of August off when this issue was hanging fire, and let every crazy in the country take a shot at it.
But you must realize that a lot of that "popular opposition" comes from the very people we meet here, our own base, who can... and will... turn on a dime once the bill is passed?
And even you have to acknowledge that the "reading" of Sanders' amendment was not intended to illuminate, but to infuriate?
And finally... the surest way for endangered Dems to "vote themselves out of office" is to abandon their president. Weakening your leader during a time of peril is, truly, strategic suicide.
Sorry NATE & folks,
what is being proposed is NOT HCR - this is at best lukewarm 'hIr' [small letter 'health' INSURANCE small letter 'reform']
ok, it poorly addresses a few problems like access [pre-existing] & rescission [sorta] BUT without even oversight or penalties for the PRIVATE insurers or even a mechanism to make sure that these endemic problems are not just handles in end-around denials by jacking rates through the roof for less desirable applicants [duh]
but - tell me exactly - where is the CARE reform ???
NADA on preventative medicine, nada on HUGE deductibles [which is THE major deterrent for many of us to even seek treatment or care since it would/will still be out-of-pocket] & the list goes on
MANDATES to buy CRAPOLA is BAD MEDICINE & dooms this scenario
DEMs & BHO need to attqack single-payer & REAL HEALTH 'CARE' REFORM - NOT throw more good money after bad into the deep pocketed PRIVATE for-profit insurers that will continue to game this broken system bankrupting our nation & endagering our health CARE
MEDICARE for ALL is the only rational answer - and THAT is a winner
check public support - put it to the vote or let the CONs + Lieberman vote it down/filibuster access to real HEALTH CARE
quit calling this stanky stew status quo HCR cuz it is nothing of the sort w/o at least a robust public option + affordable access to preventative health care
the subsidies to insure the poor & working poor does NOT give them actual CARE - it still only gives them access to an INSURANCE system that will bankrupt all of us ASAP & profits a few
wv - HUMBI
kingb said...
Jenny,
so you think being mandated to spend 20% of your income on crappy, for-profit health insurance (with no price controls and ridiculous inflation) qualifies as "having the means"
that, my friend, is "batshit crazy"
============================
If you're a member of the middle class, should you be allowed to opt out of the system if you have the means and discretionary income?
People seem to be forgetting that the majority of the people impacted by this bill are young, poor, uneducated, arrogant or all of the above.
Those people don't vote, but when they do, except for the arrogant ones, they vote democratic in enormous numbers.
The popularity of a bill barely matters when most of the voting public is almost completely unaffected by its negatives and only its positives. Most voters are older and employed and, if anything, are likely to be getting insurance relief and not being required to buy what they lack.
Further, this bill is incredibly unpopular with seniors, who are always terrified of new healthcare bills beause they think it makes medicare less stable, but when they continue to have medicare in 2 years they will not be voting on it.
The popularity of this bill couldn't be less important to what happens in 1 year, much less in 3. What it -does- is another story, and cuts both ways, but its present polling is completely irrelevant to anything but passing it.
Blogger Bart DePalma said...
"How precisely are is the GOP able to stretch any legislation out? The GOP does not have the votes to stop anything in either chamber of Congress."
Come on Bart, you're not that stupid. Don't pretend to be.
And you know better than to think that people who believe the bill contains death panels, government takeover, socialism, bans on private insurance, and the 1000 other lies are "informed" or have read the bill.
They have "read the bill" in the same way you have: getting cherry-picked statements out of context from WSJ editorials and FoxNews. if "citizen demonstrations" of this size really represented the public will, then there would never have been a War in Iraq, and your heroes Ronnie and Boy George would have been one-termers.
Wow! A pro and con of the bill without wild claims and conspiracy theories?
Thank you Nate, I learn so much from your site and its nice that the partisan rhetoric and bitterness is left in the comments and not in your post.
Ron Smith said...
"Republicans are far and away the smartest party when it comes to forming public (swing) opinion."
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yes, that's why they lost 15 senate seats, 53 house seats, and 7 entire state legislatures in the last two cycles.
Hell, bush couldn't even beat Gore, he had to steal the election in the supreme court.
Nate, I can see why people are getting fed up with what seems to be a smarmy attitude. You may answer some questions, but you neglect what may the most important: how to keep insurance companies from doing anything and everything they want. In many places, there are only really two good options for insurance, which goes down to one if you're mandated to only use your employer's insurance (that is, IF your employer has insurance). In Pittsburgh, it's really only three: Highmark (BC/BS), UPMC Health Plan, and West Penn Allegheny Health Systems. And that's the city! What is it outside the metro area? I can't even figure!
Second, there's the "de facto" rescission that other people are talking about. OK, maybe that isn't the proper phrase for people with pre-existing conditions as much as the phrase "protection racket" is. Just like the Mob coming to your neighborhood to demand a little payment for "protection" from getting your kneecaps broken. Once the Mob bosses see that they can get away with it, they then proceed to hike the "premium", just because they can do it. And no one is going to help, because the cops and the judges are all in the pockets of the Mob bosses using money from, you guessed it, THE PROTECTION RACKET! HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT FROM SAID PROTECTION RACKET?!!!
Mike, you make tooo much sense. Keep posting!!
"But it's not real reform!" is a pretty important deficiency when real reform is what our health system actually needs, political realities be damned. We pay what, a third to a half more than comparable countries on health care (and growing?).
Thank you, Nate.
For those who don't understand why the Senate majority of 60 is insufficient to slam things through, consider this: The GOP was able to enact things because their stuff (tax cuts, unfunded mandates and the like) were easier vote-getters.
Health insurance reform is HARD. Take this incremental step and move on.
It makes no difference whether I agree with him, disagree with him, or am actually a foreigner with no vested interest in the discussion one way or the other.
Here is the truth.
Nate really isn't interesting when he focuses on policy instead of politics.
Reread the webpage you cite -- there are no quotation marks in the text. Therefore it can not be a quote. Lets face it, the right wing constantly makes shit up and then tries to hide their hand by FALSELY citing a study.
They not only had quotation marks around a quote, but had a direct link to the .gov with the information. Here's the link to the CBO letter:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/107xx/doc10781/11-30-Premiums.pdf
Here is the quote:
"Therefore, of the 32 million people who would have nongroup coverage in 2016 under the proposal (including those purchased inside and outside the exchanges), about 18 million, or 57 percent, would receive exchange subsidies."
The quote in question can be found on page 24.
Additionally, I am not coming at this from the right wing, but from the left- as I said, the only reason I cited CNS in the first place was because they were the first hit on Google. That specific article seems fairly well-written, but the comments are pretty out there and I can't speak to the quality of any of their other articles.
you're arguing in bad faith. There will always be people who can pay their bill who will NEVERTHELESS face a catastrophic event (cancer, struck in the crosswalk by a hit and run driver) and they will not be able to pay for their bill, and those costs are passed on to everyone else. No free riders.
These make up a fraction of the 14 million people you're forcing to buy coverage. You're punishing well over 95% of them to avoid having to subsidize a few extreme cases-- and this in a bill that is supposed to be providing people with coverage! It seems to me that instead of extorting 14 million working Americans, we could set aside 1 or 2 of the $900 billion to cover ER costs for uninsured cancer patients, or something to that effect.
The fact that you want to penalize the middle class like this is only more evidence that we need at least a public option, and in the extreme, single-payer.
Who needs the CBO! Nate Silver does not need an analysis on the repercusions of this bill on the premiums that people in this country. He says the bill is good and that's that! Let's eliminate the CBO and do our business based on what Nate Silver types here.
what a narrow-minded establishment-friendly pundit.
CONTRACT WITH AMERICA 2
If elected in 2010, we Republicans will repeal this "tax on the middle class"
It's coming and it's gonna work.
Vicki said...
Thank you, Nate.
For those who don't understand why the Senate majority of 60 is insufficient to slam things through, consider this: The GOP was able to enact things because their stuff (tax cuts, unfunded mandates and the like) were easier vote-getters.
Health insurance reform is HARD. Take this incremental step and move on.
=================================
Everything you said is spot-on!
If health care is so easy, why hasn't it EVER been done.
I think the people who are frustrated either didn't live through the 1994 Clinton attempt at HCR or didn't pay attention.
Bill and Hillary didn't succeed, not because they didn't try as hard as they could, but because it's a steep mountain to scale.
Michael said...
CONTRACT WITH AMERICA 2
If elected in 2010, we Republicans will repeal this "tax on the middle class"
It's coming and it's gonna work.
============================
Won't work. Live by the filibuster die by the filibuster. The republicans have been a political party since 1850 and they have never held a filibuster proof majority.
Bill and Hillary didn't succeed, not because they didn't try as hard as they could, but because it's a steep mountain to scale.
And yet our "progressives" want Obama to leap gracefully from peak to peak like a mountain goat (unroped and using no oxygen at all) and arrive at the peak in four hours while leaving all his Sherpas down below the tree line.
And then come back down the mountain with ponies for everyone.
Progressive said...
Who needs the CBO! Nate Silver does not need an analysis on the repercusions of this bill on the premiums that people in this country. He says the bill is good and that's that! Let's eliminate the CBO and do our business based on what Nate Silver types here.
what a narrow-minded establishment-friendly pundit.
=============================
you're ridiculous. you don't have a CBO analysis either, yet that doesn't stop you from denouncing the purported bill.
So true, filistro, so true.
And the Clintons didn't inherit two wars and the 2nd worst financial collapse in us history.
Blogger Jenny said...
"The republicans have been a political party since 1850 and they have never held a filibuster proof majority."
Close, but they did have such a majority during most of the Civil War and early Reconstruction era, and for a brief period during the Roosevelt/Taft administrations (and the party was formed in 1854).
filistro said...
And yet our "progressives" want Obama to leap gracefully from peak to peak like a mountain goat (unroped and using no oxygen at all) and arrive at the peak in four hours while leaving all his Sherpas down below the tree line.
And then come back down the mountain with ponies for everyone.
I don't see why you're so quick to throw the public option out as an unreasonable pipe dream. A majority of Americans support it (which is more than can be said of the current bill). A majority of Representatives support it; a majority of Senators support it. The only thing standing between the US and a public option is Joe Lieberman and one or two like-minded Senators-- their vote on the actually bill would be irrelevant, yet they refuse to vote for cloture.
Progressives are annoyed because we are within an inch of a public option that will treat the disease ailing health insurance, rather than just the symptom. Yet, rather than fighting for that inch, people are willing to let it go-- for what? Subsidies and a mandate.
Michael's got the right attitude in saying this:
"There is still a process to continue through and with the right pressure, maybe the language can be tightened, the subsidies can be increased, and at least some substantial benefits will kick in sooner rather than later."
The Dems could pass a better, and also much more popular, set of reforms. They have the power; they could get rid of the filibuster if they wanted to. But they'll need to be pressured obviously, otherwise they'll just pass whatever gets 60 votes by Xmas.
Yet, rather than fighting for that inch, people are willing to let it go-- for what?
For later, Mr. Graham.
For later.
kingb -- nice going in deliberately misrepresenting my diatribe against rich rentiers whose taxes have been slashed for 30 years by fawning Republicans into opposing "anyone of moderate means." People of moderate means are going to do BETTER under this bill, because people of ample to obscene means are going to have to pay MORE towards the health care of people of moderate means than at present. That's what I said, and you haven't even tried to address it, other than to distort what I said.
Yes, some people of moderate means are going to "get hurt" by having to buy health insurance that they are now going without. And if they then get sick, their care will be paid for under the progressive (relatively) Federal tax system instead of by people who are paying for their own health insurance or by state and/or local taxpayers at regressive rates. The people who get hit hardest by health insurance premiums and state and local taxes NOW are...people of moderate means. The people who get away with underpaying for the health care of the uninsured are the wealthy. Show me how that's not true.
Only if the uninsured don't get sick will they be worse off under HCR. So what you're telling me is I'm supposed to feel sympathy for people whose idea of health insurance is to gamble with their health, and if they lose, stick somebody else with the bill. And we should preserve a system that sees to it that those who get stuck are proportionally more people of moderate means than not.
I will grant you that many of the uninsured often don't have any alternative (now!!) to taking that gamble, but that doesn't change the outcomes any, does it?
Jacob, I know about the 60th congress, but I excluded that as TR was progressive.
For later, Mr. Graham.
For later.
The bill as-is won't take effect for five years, and Nate says himself (or implied w/ his question, at least) in the post before this one that the Democrats are unlikely to have the numbers they do now any time soon. If we don't get a public option by next fall, it will be shelved for a very long time- almost certainly until after the rest of the bill takes effect in 2014, and probably not for years after that. The last chance we had for reform was fifteen years ago-- we might not get another chance for fifteen years, or longer. Right now, we're two votes from cloture on a bill with a public option. In my mind, giving up on that before all possible avenues, including reconciliation, are tried would be a terrible waste of the opportunity we have. And passing the mandate w/o a public option would put a ridiculous amount of pressure on those 14 million in the middle class for the next decade and a half.
R. Graham, the public option only covers 3 million people. Mandates and subsidies cover 30 million people. I would love to have both, but if I could only take one...
Nate -
The problem you are totally ignoring is the game theoretic aspect of this. What you are forgetting is that this isn't the only time the Democratic leadership is going to be playing this "game" against the Lieberman and the Blue Dogs.
What is happening now is an example of what happens when you reveal yourself to be a wimp - you will get pushed around again and again. Recall the case of the Prisoner's Dilemma. If you are playing once, the correct strategy is different from one in which you play again and again.
In the Prisoner's Dilemma, you punish those who screw you and reward those who cooperate. That is what Reid should be doing with Lieberman and the Blue Dogs here.
If he shows he's willing to blow up the caucus - throw them out and lose the 60 seat majority over this - they might think twice about how they're bargaining.
@josh -- upon what basis can you state that the Democrats have 60% majorities in both houses? It's obviously not true -- Lieberman is no more a Democrat than Jim DeMint. He knows for certain that he will never be re-elected as a Democrat again, so why should he help them out?
The Democrats could PROBABLY round up 59 votes in the Senate and enough in the House to pass decent health care. 59 votes in the Senate isn't enough, so they're being forced to compromise. Not only that, but other arcane Senate rules allow the Repugs to draw out the process (tonight by demanding a full reading of 139 pages of amendments) to stall the bill, and make schmucks like yourself say things like "what's the matter with the Democrats -- why can't they pass a bill when they've got 60 votes?"
Congratulations -- you have fallen for the Republican strategy of making it appear the country is disgusted with the bill itself, when all you're really doing is blaming the Democrats for the intransigence of the Republicans. If you're a typical voter, Palin is a lock in 2012.
R. Graham,
"And passing the mandate w/o a public option would put a ridiculous amount of pressure on those 14 million in the middle class for the next decade and a half."
you're making shit up. you have NOT provided a citation in support.
filistro said...
But you must realize that a lot of that "popular opposition" comes from the very people we meet here, our own base, who can... and will... turn on a dime once the bill is passed?
"A lot" is a bit of an overstatement. The slice of opposition from the left (which is indeed well represented here) is heavily outnumbered by the center-right majority of both the opposition and the overall electorate.
And finally... the surest way for endangered Dems to "vote themselves out of office" is to abandon their president. Weakening your leader during a time of peril is, truly, strategic suicide.
The Dems are in the worst possible position. If they cater to their base, they lose a majority of the electorate. If they cater to the majority, their base could well stay home and they still lose. After 1993 and 2009, Dem should recognize that government takeover of health care is the electoral version of land wars in Russia during the winter.
And even you have to acknowledge that the "reading" of Sanders' amendment was not intended to illuminate, but to infuriate?
Both. There have been several amendments considered to date and the GOP did not ask that any of them be read into the record until now. The Sanders amendment to impose single payer on the nation was the one that would most infuriate the opposition if folks were allowed to hear the legislation for themselves. Its hasty withdrawal would also be likely to infuriate the Dem left base who dearly desire to socialize health care. From the GOP viewpoint, win win.
Firedoglake just posted an piece titled "Answering Nate Silver’s 20 Questions On Killing The Senate Bill."
Read it: http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/16/answering-nate-silvers-20-questions-on-killing-the-senate-bill/
R. Graham, the public option only covers 3 million people. Mandates and subsidies cover 30 million people. I would love to have both, but if I could only take one...
Once the public option gets its foot in the door, it will be far easier to expand in the future than it will be to create from scratch when the Dems are unlikely to have the majorities they do.
And of course mandates will cover a lot of people- they're mandates. If your goal is simply to cover as many people as possible with no regards to cost, mandates are the way to go. Subsidies are an expensive way to back that up, and while I'd prefer subsidies to nothing, mandating health care for 32 million but only subsidizing it for about half of them is quite unfair.
If the subsidies covered everyone hit by the mandate, or if the mandate were to be dropped, I would grudgingly support this bill as a small step towards reform. If it gets a public option, I'll be elated. Otherwise, I have no choice but to oppose it.
@Joshua -- you've hit the point, but I wonder if you understand it. If the bill fails, the insurance companies will indeed be able to do anything they want. If it passes, the atmosphere for touch regulation will provide at least some measure of control over them -- public option or not.
HMOs were legalized in 1973 but went nowhere until Clinton lost his leath care push in 1994, after which insurance companies basically forced millions of Americans into them because, since health care had lost, they were politically untouchable.
This time around, what they'll probably do is throw everyone over 55 into super-high-cost premium levels, and recission out anyone whom they think has any chance of getting sick. IF the bill fails. If it passes, they can be fought effectively.
Reality ~ the current version of the health care reform bill won't pass the House of Representatives.
So either no bill or back to the drawing board ...
ie maybe Obama should have dithered more on health care than Afghanistan, eh.
Many liberal Dems in safe districts will not vote for this Christmas present to the insurance industry! imo
you're making shit up. you have NOT provided a citation in support.
I've politely provided you with the CBO link twice. Here it is a third time:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/107xx/doc10781/11-30-Premiums.pdf
On page 24, you will find it says (direct quote):
"Therefore, of the 32 million people who would have nongroup coverage in 2016 under the proposal (including those purchased inside and outside the exchanges), about 18 million, or 57 percent, would receive exchange subsidies."
That's the last time I'm going to show you that link. I've been nice about it but if you ignore it again I'm just going to assume you're trolling me.
Progressive said...
Firedoglake just posted an piece titled "Answering Nate Silver’s 20 Questions On Killing The Senate Bill."
===================
Oh, Oh. Jane and Markos won't be inviting Nate to their cocktail parties.
Poor Nate.
The latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal polling indicates that Americans are saying a pox on both of your houses:
In addition to Obama’s job approval rating at 47 percent, fewer than four in 10 say they are confident he has the right set of goals and policies, which is down 15 points since his election.
And only one-third have confidence the president has the right goals and priorities to improve the economy, down 13 points since June....
The entire Republican Party, moreover, continues to maintain a net-negative favorable/unfavorable rating, 28 percent to 43 percent.
But, for the first time in more than two years, the Democratic Party also now holds a net-negative rating, 35 percent to 45 percent.
By comparison, the conservative libertarian-leaning Tea Party movement has a net-positive 41 percent to 23 percent score in the poll.
As I noted above, the Tea Party movement is a conservative citizens rebellion against initiatives like the Dem legislation to take over some measure of our health insurance. It is not a product of the GOP. The GOP has a choice to surf the coming tsunami by getting back to libertarian conservative principles or risk getting washed out to sea with the Dems.
R. Graham said...
"Therefore, of the 32 million people who would have nongroup coverage in 2016 under the proposal (including those purchased inside and outside the exchanges), about 18 million, or 57 percent, would receive exchange subsidies."
============================
First, thank you for your cite.
2nd, the quote doesn't answer the question.
See, even you will admit there are currently millions of people currently purchasing nongroup insurance without any subsidy. That number may already be 14 million.
The question then is how many MOREe will be mandated to purchase nongroup insurance without subsidy.
Then the question arises if a member of he middle class has the means and discretionary income to buy atleast catastrophic insurance why should they be allowed a free ride?
The Tea Party people are not libertarians. They may have started off that way (back when it was more of a Ron Paul thing) but now it's more of a Glenn Beck right wing nut sort of thing.
Even Ron Paul is a half-assed libertarians a real libertarian is pro-choice.
"By comparison, the conservative libertarian-leaning Tea Party movement has a net-positive 41 percent to 23 percent score in the poll."
===========================
yes, yes.
Too bad the teabaggers lost NY-23 a seat they held since 1850.
Way to go, Bart. Try not to cite Zogby, next time.
your still cherry picking the numbers. Its hundreds of billions going to insurance companies with no guarantees. The American public will crucify the Democrats for signing off to Junk Insurance with forced mandates and nonexistent guarantees. This is worse than the bank bailout that saved the banks while the American public is losing their jobs and homes
Blogger Jenny:
Rarely right.
Always certain.
Consistently annoying.
Can you keep your "insights" to yourself? They are neither illuminating or worth reading. Thanks
Nate seems to be playing a zero sum game. Saying those hurt by the cost of the mandate will be offset by those helped by not being denied for a pre-existing condition. We are just shifting pain (rearranging the deck chairs)and not addressing the true problems. This just inflates the status quo and grows the problem. Are we truly at "Don't let the bad be the enemy of the win." If there is truly something good here I can't see it. "A government of the people". If the rest of the western world can do it(health care that is) why can't we?
Nate, you are exactly right. Keep talking Nate, you are spot on.
Well, there's always the possibility that the GOP will repeal this abomination when they retake the White House in 2012
So we are spending almost a trillion dollars but still not closing the efficiency gap with the rest of the civilized world?
None of Nate's arguments seem to have any appeal to anyone other than liberals.
I particular, those of us who generally dislike government programs, but are willing to set this belief aside in order to bring the US health care efficiency up to scratch, don't see much benefit here.
As I said in the last thread, ultimately I agree with Nate on this, although I understand the desire of progressives to keep this ball in the air because when it lands - whether the bill succeeds or fails - it signals the ignominious end of the hope for genuine substantive health care reform in the USA. Whatever good it does (and it probably does enough to merit passing when the political repercussions are taken into account), it represents a total failure to enact "health care reform."
That said, the following is easily the most intellectually dishonest comment that I have ever seen from Nate Silver:
"If the concern were the total amount of health care spending, why not just wipe out Medicare and Medicaid, let poor and old people grow accustomed to shorter life expectancies, and call it a day?"
Durrrr. If the concern were the number of people without access to health insurance, why not just eliminate the problem by killing all of them? After all, when it is someone else's concern you're talking about, the stupidest, most immoral solution is as good as any. Right, Glen-- er, Nate?
What prevents including the public option trigger with Snowe's support, but without Lieberman's support?
Bart, I've noticed you seem to equate "Tea Party" and libertarian. (And you think of yourself primarily as libertarian, no?)
My definition of libertarian would be: fiscally conservative, socially somewhat liberal ("live and let live")and in general strongly supportive of small government and low taxes.
Does that really describe the Tea Party group? Because they look to me more like a fairly monolithic white Christian party.... and, I'd suspect, VERY socially conservative.
Richard said...
"Its hundreds of billions going to insurance companies with no guarantees. The American public will crucify the Democrats for signing off to Junk Insurance with forced mandates and nonexistent guarantees. This is worse than the bank bailout that saved the banks while the American public is losing their jobs and homes."
----------------------------------
agreed. this is JUNK policy comparable or worse than bank bailouts. TARP money not only 'saved' those financial institutions, they GAMED the system to utilize public funds + fed guarantees to double down & make WINDFALL PROFITS !!!
for the life of me - why is there no call for a windfall profits TAX on the obscene profits that Goldman, B of A et al are now enjoying thanks to congressional largesse ???
if it was good enought for big OIL, why not get a better return for the public now these excessive 'investment'/windfall profits that WE staked them to ???
and go all-in for a real single-payer/MediCare for all or go home broke - as it is the only rational sustainable solution in the long run...
I mean, the rest of the developed world figured it out already... either single-payer for UHC or cut out the PROFIT middle-man that provides no benefit to society/health CARE
we need Healthe CARE Reform - not a weak health INSURANCE tweak that only will exacerbate the problems as it further bankrupts our country both fiscally & morally
BAD BILL = NO GO, vote NO
Ed said...
Well, there's always the possibility that the GOP will repeal this abomination when they retake the White House in 2012
~~~~~~~~~~
(If) Dems do manage to pass some sort or reasonable/rational health care reform, indeed that would be a good campaign message for a 2012 Rep presidential nominee to run on ie the repeal of American's health care coverage.
Reps could also use the repeal of Medicare and Medicaid as campaign issues, eh.
That's the ticket!
and then try to repeal baseball, hot dogs and apple pie!
as the party of No! marches on ...
O.T.
The Palin kookyness continues.
Like a bad memory, Sarah Palin has apparently decided to block out John McCain.
The former GOP vice presidential contender was snapped in Hawaii this week wearing an old McCain for President visor - only she had blacked out the letters of her one-time running mate, leaving just a faint outline of his name.
Much clearer was the message on her T-shirt: "If you don't love America," it read on the front, "then why don't you get the hell out," it advised on the back.
Wow, vacationing in Hawaii -- what an elitist.
It's progress, Jenny.... if she's vacationing there, apparently Hawaiians no longer make her uncomfortable.
What a woman... truly the gift that keeps on giving!
Just to deal with the bit about "it's going to Cigna", that "most of the money" is a crock. Medical loss ratios are how insurance companies measure gross profits from premiums. Anything over 75 percent, meaning that 75 percent of premiums are actually spent on medical care, is considered bad performance. That means that at least a quarter of the money insurance companies take in are kept by the insurance companies. That's not anywhere near 3%.
Of that $900 billion, $225 isn't getting any farther than the insurance companies.
Medicare, OTOH, has a "medical loss ratio" of over 97%.
As with your last group of questions, these are mostly strawmen or out-and-out distortions of what we're saying.
All this stuff over Health Care Reform...strike that last word. Umm, let's see, what'll we call it now? Health care bait and switch?
Anyway, all this is making me sick to my stomach. And I'm uninsured.
I appreciate the words devoted to the topic, Nate. I'm not convinced (first time I'm not with you on something) but I'm willing to have faith in the guy I worked to put in office. Here's hoping.
Now I'm going to go watch some mind numbing TV with a bottle of scotch until this all blows over.
@ Jenny:
See, even you will admit there are currently millions of people currently purchasing nongroup insurance without any subsidy. That number may already be 14 million.
Seeing as every middle class family doesn't have coverage, it is certainly less than 14 mil.
The question then is how many MOREe will be mandated to purchase nongroup insurance without subsidy.
I don't know, and I've looked but haven't been able to find an exact number. My guess would be several million (5-6) but it could range anywhere from 1-10.
Then the question arises if a member of he middle class has the means and discretionary income to buy atleast catastrophic insurance why should they be allowed a free ride?
First off, the number of middle class families getting a "free ride" for chemotherapy or other expensive treatments is minuscule compared to the overall number covered by the mandate but not subsidies.
That said, they shouldn't get a free ride. But the solution to that isn't to say "Suck it, pay up"-- rather, it's to provide an alternative, like single-payer, the public option, or greatly increased subsidies. IMO subsidies are more of a short-term solution and should only be done if we continue working towards a public option (or eventually, single payer.)
@ DCM in FL:
agreed. this is JUNK policy comparable or worse than bank bailouts. TARP money not only 'saved' those financial institutions, they GAMED the system to utilize public funds + fed guarantees to double down & make WINDFALL PROFITS !!!
The TARP money is being paid back. With interest. The fed. expects to make a fair amount of a profit on it. The only bailout money that isn't being recovered is the auto bailout.
MR U
strike out CARE as well
this senate bill has NOTHING to do with 'care'
it is an insurance industry give-away
nuttin' more...so sad :-(
wv - sycrout
Nate, watch KO's special comment tonight. He nails it.
An individual mandate that throws people into the jaws of the industry with essentially no real reform because of the loopholes and concessions is just wrong. It is also a political poison pill for Democrats that will haunt them in the future until the bill is finally repealed by a GOP majority. It will be wildly unpopular, and drive young voters to the GOP in droves, because it will hit them in the pocketbook with a really bad deal.
I say the current system is predominantly single payer (Medicare, Medicate, VA, ...) How does more of that make the system better?
All these predictions of spiraling health care spending are silly. You can't extrapolate that going forward, because we will find ways to do health care more efficiently and we'll choose to stop buying more health care. People can only take so many pills.
Real reform forces govt. sponsored healthcare to be actuarially sound and a voucher system.
--DonG
John Podesta's Big Ten: (points in favor of passing the bill)
1. Largest Expansion Of Coverage Since Medicare’s Creation: Thirty-one million previously uninsured Americans will have insurance.
2. Low/Middle Income Americans Will Not Go Without Coverage: For low-income Americans struggling near the poverty line, the bill represents the largest single expansion of Medicaid since its inception. Combined with subsidies for middle income families, the bill’s provisions will ensure that working class Americans will no longer go without basic health care coverage.
3. Insurance Companies Will Never Be Able to Drop or Deny You Coverage Because You Are Sick: Insurers can no longer deny coverage because of a pre-existing condition. They can’t rescind coverage or impose lifetime or annual limits on care. Significantly, the bill also ends insurer discrimination against women — who currently pay as much as 48% more for coverage than men — and gives them access preventive services with no cost sharing.
4. Lowers Premiums For Families: The Senate bill could lower premiums for the overall population by 8.4%. For the subsidized population, premiums would decrease even more dramatically. According to the CBO, “the amount that subsidized enrollees would pay for non-group coverage would be roughly 56 percent to 59 percent lower, on average than the nongroup premiums charged under current law.”
5. Invests in Keeping People Healthy: The bill creates a Prevention and Public Health Fund to expand and sustain funding for public prevention programs that prevent disease and promote wellness.
6. Insurers Can’t Offer Subprime Health Care: Insurers operating in the individual and small group markets will no longer sell subprime policies that deny coverage when illness strikes and you need it most. Everyone will be offered an essential benefits package of comprehensive benefits.
7. Helps Businesses Afford Coverage: Small employers can take advantage of large risk pools by purchasing coverage through the bill’s state-based exchanges. Employers with no more than 25 employees would receive a tax credit to help them provide coverage to their employees. The bill also establishes a temporary reinsurance program for employers providing coverage to retirees over the age of 55 who are not eligible for Medicare.
8. Improves Medicare: The bill eliminates the waste and fraud in the Medicare system, gets rid of the special subsidy to private insurers participating in Medicare Advantage and extends the life of the Medicare trust fund by 9 years. It also closes the doughnut hole that affected 3.4 seniors enrolled in Medicare Part D in 2008.
9. Reduces The Deficit: Not only would the bill expand coverage to 30 million Americans without adding to the nation debt, it would also reduce the deficit by up to $409 billion over 10 years.
10. Reduces National Health Spending: A CAP-Commonwealth Fund analysis concludes the bill could reduce overall spending by close to $683 billion over 10 years – with the potential to save families $2,500. Even the most conservative government estimates conclude that the bill would reduce national health care expenditures by at least 0.3% by 2019.
Obama's health care reform elevator pitch (taken from Organizing for America);
Reduce Costs
Guarantee Choice
Ensure Quality Care for All
One out of three. I guess we should be happy.
I'm for passing this bill and then terrorizing everyone that undermined the relatively decent bill we knew last week, starting with Joe Lieberputz. Strip him of his assignments. Kick him out of the caucus. (Maybe Snowe will use the opportunity to Specterize.) Regardless it doesn't matter, he will always knife us in the back at the most critical moments and for nothing more than his fragile ego. The day after this bill passes I want holy hell raining down on these bastards until they die. Its time to stop being angry and get even. Relentless pressure until they whither and disappear starting with asshat Joe.
R> GRAHAM
true, most of the TARP money is being repaid with nominal interest
BUT the institutions used the fed guarantees + the cash that was borrowed to leverage themselves & cash in on a bonaza that enriched themselves by ever so much more
look at those 'profits' this year - when they would have disappeared
[oh, what about AIG $$$ - and they are giving out bonuses there]
the Brits are taxing their bonus babies [and rightly so]
I am happy the financial industry did not collapse - but they created their own disaster & now 'used' the TARP to cash in even more
so WINDFALL profits are obscene
I would rather lose $$$ on GM & Chrysler assuming much of it kept real people employed than to allow those financial institutions to game the system [by keeping credit tight & eliminating competitors like Bear & WaMu they boosted their own short-term 'profits' even more with complicity of the feds]
at least GM $$$ got a minor stimulus effect - TARP was financial welfare [even if it was partially repaid already - they should have to pay a greater share now since we took the only risk]
wv -ousiness [OUR bidness - not yours]
R. Graham,
Thanks for your effort. I think we agree, except for killing the bill.
Nate, you make me feel so much better about this whole mess...
I'm still starting to think the Democrats might be in serious trouble after all, unless the president and his congressional allies take a leaf out of your book and start selling this better, but at least there is some upside to this bill.
This whole affair has been very, very badly bungled. It hasn't been sold so much as it has been dictated, and Democrats ignored or avoided trying to counter the predictable arguments of Republicans and those TEA Party maniacs for too long and consequentially the liberals lost control of the media narrative. It's hard to imagine how the White House, fronted by a team that used media so exquisitely to Obama's advantage during the campaign last year, could have managed this any worse.
Now we've got a mediocre bill that isn't worthless, but accomplishes a lot less than its supporters had hoped for and, if passed, will clear Obama's mandate to reform health care without actually reforming the system. I disagree with you on single-payer, but I'm a longtime backer of Wyden-Bennett who was deeply disappointed by the White House's decision to push for reform based on the much more deeply flawed proposal by the late Sen. Edward Kennedy.
It's frustrating that the price tag on this legislation is as high as it is, considering that it is so much weaker than it was supposed to be.
Nate is awesome.
FILISTRO
some of those claims are 'exagerated', but many of the top 10 on that list are good points
BUT the mandate & delay in implementation & lack of controls is a killer - as is the lack of real health CARE reform
this 'bill' is an insurance bill - not a care bill
BUT I would like to see many of those top 10 points passed on a stand-alone basis.
some [like pre-existing conditions & rescisiions even a few CONs 'claim' they would vote for'
chope the bill up into at least 5-10 parts
and pass the best ones for a start on REFORM
then go fight for single-payer & MediCare for ALL - anything less is not supported by the public or logic & will fail as it further bankrupts or nation fiscally & morally
I will settle for a few good pieces right now from your list - but I do NOT support this weak-arsed senate compromise BS 'bill'
wv -pugglyth...lol
Okay, I lied. Olbermann has me convinced that the president has a bad case of "get-there-itis" (a metaphorical malady that pilots get when they are tired and ready to land). Get-there-itis is frequently the cause of bad judgments and tragic accidents.
Still backing Dr. Dean's suggestion that we take this thing to reconciliation.
this site is good with numbers, but bad with the big picture. here's why this bill needs to be shot down:
because it makes president obama break all the promises he made to the american people during the campaign.
he ran against an individual mandate, but this bill contains one. he ran on universal coverage, this bill does not achieve it (especially when considering that loopholes to get out of paying any penalties will be the first thing to expand b/c they will be so politically undesirable). he ran on providing a meaningful public option (which non-political junkies took to mean-- ' i get to buy the public plan if i don't like the one my boss offers me '). he ran on eliminating monetary coverage caps, this bill maintains them.
this will be an ELECTORAL DISASTER for the Democratic party in 2010, and most likely, for Obama in 2012.
on to my second point, from the very beginning of this process, there has been a segment of the progressive community who has said ' well, this is as good a deal as we'll get, so we better accept it. ' and in EVERY SINGLE CASE, the bar has been lowered again. Now we're at the point where the insurance industry literally could have written this bill themselves. They are GUARANTEED tens of millions of new customers, whose payments will be enforced by the frickin FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. In exchange, they will basically have to alter their billing practices in some minimal ways, but that's about it.
And one last thing-- why is this all of a sudden a crisis? This debate has been dragged out for a YEAR. Why is it all of a sudden absolutely paramount that progressives get in line with this version of the bill (and maybe even scrap the conference)? What happens if progressives draw a line in the sand and say no way, no how?
Maybe then progressives will be the ones at the negotiating table instead of joe lieberman. Or maybe the bill will be pared down to the subsidies and coverage regulations that everyone can agree on (NO INDIVIDUAL MANDATE!), and cost control measures can be forced through by reconciliation in separate votes. Why should progressives accept this piece of shit Senate bill now when industry shills have gotten everything they want?
mandate + no cost controls = DISASTER
hoping Bernie comes out as a 'NO' from the moral left side - unless HE gets counter-concessions that this mess will be improved substantially somehow, some way before it is signed into law
KILL THE MANDATE as it now exists - unless progressives get a BIG sumthin', sumthin'
I am incredibly disappointed with Nate for his blatant misuse of numbers in support of his argument.
In his post comparing the costs paid if we had a bill versus if we had no bill or if we had no bill plus CHIP he makes brief mention of the fact that his analysis is based on an entirely different bill (i.e. one with a public option) but proceeds to use the numbers as if they had any connection to the current bill at all (hint- they don't).
I assumed at the time it was a stupid mistake and he'd realize it sooner or later. His commentors certainly seemed to pick up on it.
But here he is not only pointing back at his previous analysis despite it being based on bogus numbers but also points to an analysis from CMS that was ALSO about an earlier version of the bill (from a month ago when the public option aspects were only removed this last week).
One time is a mistake, two times is unprofessional. Three times starts to look an awful lot like it's a deliberate attempt to mislead and lie with numbers.
I hope he takes this very seriously because right now he seems dead set on destroying his reputation for being a good source of accurate analysis. If he really thinks the numbers he cited are a good approximation then he should make that argument explicitly. Without it it just looks very much like an attempt to play fast an loose with the facts.
OK, as I suspected would happen - liberal pushback has started...
at Political Wire now:
'Sanders Will Not Support Current Bill'
In an interview on Fox Business News, Sen. Bernie Sanders said he's not ready to vote for the current Senate health care reform bill.
Said Sanders: "I'm struggling with this. As of this point, I'm not voting for the bill... I'm going to do my best to make this bill a better bill, a bill that I can vote for, but I've indicated both to the White House and the Democratic leadership that my vote is not secure at this point. And here is the reason. When the public option was withdrawn, because of Lieberman's action, what I worry about is how do you control escalating health care costs?"
-----------------------------------
go Sanders - do NOT cave to Lieberman & Nelson
Some people are saying some strange stuff. You would still have to pay insurance premiums on a public health insurance options. So the individual mandate would still force people to pay a percentage of their income for insurance. CBO estimates indicate that a weak public option would cost more than private plans. The major benefits would be (1) puts a ceiling on prices of private plans. (2) acts as pilot program for expansion.
Still, I'm with Nate, those benefits aren't large enough to sacrifice an huge progressive accomplishment. Really I should add (3) Public option distracts politicians looking for a pound of flesh from substantive issues.
You are very kind to the people you are addressing, Nate. I, on the other hand, have been sitting here wishing curses upon them. I have wished upon Howard Dean, for instance that he lose every tooth except one so it can ache, and that then his root canal should divert Stan Brock's dentists from helping the poor, but that the dismissed sufferers would at least be sent on their way with a $20 bill for each.
But, on the plus side, I now have some idea how come our bridges collapse. Think about it: here we have supposed liberals rising up against the establishment of universal health care as an institution. Roads and bridges? Feh.
Oh, and I’ve gone back to the state of mind in which I wish to pull out my hair every time I hear Bernie Sanders say ‘price at the pump’ or ‘good-paying jobs’. Here he has a slam-dunk -- the creation of healthcare as a civic institution -- and he has to think about it. What a lame excuse for a ‘democratic socialist’.
Nate assumes that the choice is between the bill in its lousy current form or nothing. In reality Obama will not settle for nothing if progressives reject the bill so the real choice is between this lousy bill and real reform. Obama knew he'd need to pressure either conservative or progressive Senators to get 60 votes. He assumes progressives will be the easiest to get to roll over. If we prove him wrong and reject the current bill, Obama will instead turn the screws on the conservatives. Do you believe Lieberman will maintain his opposition to the public option if his chairmanship position is threatened? Likely not. While Nate's analysis may be right to say that this bill is favorable to the status quo, Senators should still vote against it because the likely consquence of the bill's rejection will be a resuscitation of the public option and real reform.
BARRY
what exactly constitutes UHC in this insurance mess ?
basically nada - this does NOTHING for actual health CARE except put even more control in the hands of the for-PROFIT private monopolistic insurance companies that will still maintain their anti-trust exemption
in fact, logically by empowering the insurers even more, this would make it much more difficult down the line to EVER get to real UHC which requires a rational single-payer or Medicare model
sorry, sometimes NOTHING is better than a bad 'SOMETHING'
same goes for the current surge in the 8 year Afghan war - WHY ???
more $$$ & lives will be dumped into an unwinnable unending sinkhole - just like this senate proposal
a non-stick band-aid [for PR purposes only] instead of treatment for a festering wound that will kill the host
I will settle for smaller incremental REAL changes to the system - but the vast majority of citizens oppose further entrenching the current bankrupt status quo [on war & health]
WV - prosessa [the prosessa is in gridlock]
Nate,
I agree with you, but you may want to consider one more point.
Is the democratic majority going to improve? or is this the best chance to pass reform in the next 20 years?
In the former case leaving health care an open issue may be a good idea...
Also consider that the current bill makes the insurance companies stronger as a lobby.
Finally, drug reimportation also won't go through.
The figure you're looking for is not $900 billion * their profit margins, but $900 billion * share of their non-medical costs.
Man, Nate, that is misleading. 3.3 percent? Has it occurred to you that "profit" for an insurance company takes into account as costs the salaries of all of the company's employees, including -- most significantly -- its wildly overpaid executives? Not to mention whatever accounting tricks allow companies to report less profits in order to evade taxes, etc.? Clearly you are citing that 3.3 percent figure (just an average, btw -- MetLife's 2008 profits were 12 percent of its revenues) as if it represents the difference between what a private insurer would take in vs. what a government run public option would take in (this is implicit in your assertion that the rest goes towards providing better health care outcomes for needy people). And clearly you are wrong.
You should instead be looking at this in terms of "loss ratios." (Yes, Ezra has written about that as well.) The company-wide loss ratio for a private is typically around 80% at best, and in some cases (particularly where not well-regulated by state insurance law) can be significantly lower. Moreover, the ratios have been trending downward. In 2005, loss ratios for the six largest publicly traded health insurers ranged from a high of 83.9% (Health Net) to a low of 76.9% (Aetna). It's even worse now. (MetLife's revenues rose 13% year over year in 2008, but its profits rose 33%.) Whether the remainder becomes "profit" for the company's shareholders or is rather just distributed throughout a vast (and unnecessary) corporate largess is of no moment. From the insured's perspective, it just means that way too much of his insurance premium is going towards something other than improving his health care outcomes. A robust public option would not quite deliver a 100% loss ratio (there will still be employees to pay, of course), but it would come much closer.
We've been through this already with the prescription drug bill. Rather than force pharmas to charge less, we did nothing in that regard and instead merely subsidized bigger pharma profits. Some of us learned the lesson. Indeed, some of us knew it was wrong *then* too.
There may be some blowhards (and even ex-congressional candidates) griping about the bill on openleft or elsewhere who lack a firm grasp of precisely *why* they should oppose it. But believe it or not some of us principled (and rational) progressives are not merely standing on such principles, but are understanding of the math, too. So please stop trying to educate us and just apologize for the "batsh*t crazy" comment. It was out of line.
Finally, re your 20 questions post, I'm shocked that you think the window is somehow closing on the opportunity to provide relief to the least of those among us. I don't believe that continued efforts to get a much better bill, if they were to fail, would compromise our chances to get *this* bill which we have before us passed later on. Given that many of the subsidies to the poor and uninsured don't kick in under this bill for a few years anyway, what is the rush? Yes, some benefits would be immediate (the ban on pre-existing condition exclusions, e.g.), but if progressives take a stand, perhaps it would lead to our passing a bill which provides for just those specific benefits now, and leaves the issue of mandate/subsidy/public option/medicare buy-in/single payer for more debate. Nothing I (and many Dem activists, I imagine) would like more than a chance to reshape congress again in 2010 based on the single payer or public option question (rather than letting GOP make the midterms solely about gay marriage bans, or whatever their next turnout gimmick will be).
In short, there are good reasons to rise up against this bill. Some of them even pragmatic/political ones. So please save your insults as to the sanity of participants in the health care debate for those who deserve them (Lieberman, for one).
Nate,
Your argument is cogent and convincing enough. However, what the bill killers gain from threatening to kill it is some leverage over hypothetical moderates who claim to support reform of some kind. If the "moderates" want SOMETHING, then threats to kill it give progressives some leverage over them. Maybe not over Lieberman, but I find it hard to believe he gives a damn if this bill actually passes.
Just my two cents, for whatever it's worth.
It's absolutely ridiculous to tout that insurance companies will no longer be able to deny insurance to those with pre-existing conditions without mentioning the fact that there will be NO LIMIT to the premium amounts charge to these poor folks. Yeah, there's much TALK about annual caps on premiums, but it's BS. Too many loopholes for the insurance companies. If you've had cancer, I'll bet the premiums will be more than $5000 a month. You watch and see.
BREAKING NEWS
St. Paul Krugman (The Conscience of Liberalism) has endorsed the bill and the mandates:
There’s enormous disappointment among progressives about the emerging health care bill — and rightly so. That said, even as it stands it would take a big step toward greater security for Americans and greater social justice; it would also save many lives over the decade ahead. That’s why progressive health policy wonks — the people who have campaigned for health reform for years — are almost all in favor of voting for the thing.
The argument about the evil of the individual mandate is,as Jon Cohn says, all wrong. It was wrong during the primaries, when Obama unfortunately used it to demagogue his rivals — helping set the stage for problems now. And it’s still wrong.
krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/illusions-and-bitterness/
filistro said...
Bart, I've noticed you seem to equate "Tea Party" and libertarian. (And you think of yourself primarily as libertarian, no?)
My definition of libertarian would be: fiscally conservative, socially somewhat liberal ("live and let live")and in general strongly supportive of small government and low taxes.
Does that really describe the Tea Party group? Because they look to me more like a fairly monolithic white Christian party.... and, I'd suspect, VERY socially conservative.
This is hardly a Christian party, although many of the members are also Christians. The Tea Party movement promotes the first principles of limited government and economic liberty in rebellion against the largest expansion of government since the 60s and 70s. Social conservative issues simply do not come up. Based on my observations, Tea Partiers are an alliance of libertarians and those social conservatives who also believe in limited government and economic liberty. (Not all of them do. See George Bush.)
filistro, go check out the Tea Party movement on the blogs, facebook and twitter. We a very open about who we are and what we stand for.
Nate, you mention a few times that the profits for the insurance companies are "only 3.3%" I have no doubt you are correct. However, that doesn't mean anything. Profit margins in grocery stores are about 1%, and if I did some research, I could find industries with profit margins of 20%.
Medicare has a 2-3% admin cost, meaning that 97%+ of the money they collect goes into payment for medical costs. The insurance industry pays about 80% of what they collect for medical costs. If you took Medicare level admin costs, and added the 3.3% profit margin, you still have about 14% of premiums collected to account for. Granted, a little bit (1%? 2%?) is advertising, but the rest is spent to deny care.
For every dollar insurance companies spend denying care, doctors and hospitals have to spend at least a dollar on billing clerks to re-submit forms and track down errors.
So 28% of the medical costs in this country go to denying claims and then fighting over the denials. Now you know why we pay twice as much for sub par coverage...
Kill the healthcare bill! The current Senate Bill is nothing but a gigantic transfer of wealth from working class Americans to the corporate elites. It is a tax increase for the benefit of the insurance industry. There is no mechanism to control insurance prices or medical costs and within ten years, the cost of insurance could double so that we are spending well over 30% of our GDP on healthcare costs. It will bankrupt the United States, destroy the middle class and turn our country into a third world hell hole. I hope this doesn't happen. The USA needs Medicare for all its people. If Americans have to buy insurance or be breaking the law they should have the best insurance...not some crapping corporate insurance from the fat cats getting $20 million dollars a year salaries.
Bart, I spend several hours a day researching right-wing blogs and the mindset of the far right. Most of that time is at Free Republic.
The Freepers, to a person, consider themselves Tea Partiers. In fact they think they invented the movement and they support it passionately. Jim Robinson, the manager of the site, organizes Tea Parties and drives a bus across the country twice a year to link the rallies together from sea to sea.
And the Freepers are not just socially conservative, they are bigoted, racist and theocratic.
I have it on good authority from someone who works for a Republican senator that Wyden-Bennett would pass with at least 70 votes. So the blame for that lies solely with the leadership.
I still don't understand how libertarians could ever work with social conservatives. Doesn't it disgust you to know that if they had the chance, these conservatives would gladly regulate the intimate processes of your life and unleash an unrestrained police power upon you? Say what you will about so-called liberals regulate economic things, but generally these policies seek to regulate economic externalities absent in the moralistic big government of conservatism which seeks to regulate the individual's behavior, not society. It seems to me that a libertarian would be far more afraid of social conservatism's vehement anti-individualism than something like cap and trade.
I would like someone to dig into the health care poll numbers. The MSM report that around 47% of Americans are opposed to the Senate bill, but how does that figure separate b/n those on the right who want NO health reform, and those on the left who want more fundamental reform? Does anyone know of any figures on this?
Nate - you're a numbers guy, it's misleading to say the insurance industry is not especially profitable.
All the insurance companies have a higher operating margin and profit margin than Wal-mart.
Wal-mart had 2009 net income of $13.4b in FY 2009, on sales of $405b, or 3.3% profit margin.
No one would say that Wal-mart is not especially profitable.
They are broadly similar businesses, insurance companies buy health care wholesale and sell it retail.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=wmt
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=CI
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/co?s=CI
(The market and Wal-mart trade at a higher PE, implying expectations for insurance companies of less growth at higher risk than the market as a whole. In that sense you could say they are not especially attractive companies to invest in. Paradoxically that means the market demands a higher profit per dollar invested in these businesses, so investment in them is more profitable. Cigna reports 15.5% return on equity vs. 20.3% for Wal-Mart, but Wal-Mart uses leverage to juice profits, so it's a difficult comparison)
filistro said...
Bart, I spend several hours a day researching right-wing blogs and the mindset of the far right. Most of that time is at Free Republic.
There are hundreds of Tea Party groups across the country and roughly 40% of the country which is sympathetic to their goals. You may want to widen your survey a wee bit beyond Free Republic. 40% of the country covers a wide variety of libertarian and conservative flavors who are united on the points that government and is too large and powerful.
The Tea Party folks communicate largely on Facebook and Twitter and at local meetings. Check out all three.
Richard said...
I still don't understand how libertarians could ever work with social conservatives. Doesn't it disgust you to know that if they had the chance, these conservatives would gladly regulate the intimate processes of your life and unleash an unrestrained police power upon you?
Huh? Social conservatives by and large only advance one use of the government's police power - to prohibit the killing of children through abortion. The rest of their issues are usually reactions against court abuses of government power to redefine marriage or limit religious speech, which is a rather libertarian view.
The libertarian / social conservative alliance works because the actual issues before government are generally economic and we usually agree on the first principles of limited government power and individual power in this area.
Bart... could you please post a link to some kind of mission statement or party platform of the Tea Party movement? I'd be very interested, and I can't find one. (I don't have a Twitter or a Facebook account. Just not my style...)
From what I've seen thus far, the vast majority of Tea Partiers... and by this I mean the ones who post online and turn up at rallies... are people who would support Sarah Palin for president.
And that, I believe, says all we need to know about their political seriousness and dedication to pure libertarian ideals.
filistro said... Bart... could you please post a link to some kind of mission statement or party platform of the Tea Party movement? I'd be very interested, and I can't find one. (I don't have a Twitter or a Facebook account. Just not my style...)
The Tea Party movement is not a monolithic movement with a central committee drafted set of principles. This is a genuine grass roots citizen rebellion where individual groups each have their own varying POV on what the movement stands for.
Go google "Tea Party principles" for a sampling. However, this link to one group's efforts as writing down a set of principles pretty much summarizes the common ground all these groups share.
BTW, Facebook and Twitter were not my style either until I became involved in the Tea Party movement. It is the primary way they communicate and get out news. So when in Rome...
From what I've seen thus far, the vast majority of Tea Partiers... and by this I mean the ones who post online and turn up at rallies... are people who would support Sarah Palin for president. And that, I believe, says all we need to know about their political seriousness and dedication to pure libertarian ideals.
Alaska is a comparatively libertarian state and Sarah Palin a comparatively libertarian governor. As for the seriousness of those who support Palin, I would note that Sarah's recent approval ratings are now matching The One in the mid 40s with hers rising and his dropping. Misunderestimate her at your own risk.
Bart, you're backsliding. After a courteous, respectful and productive multi-post exchange (during which you may note that I never once used the term "teabagger") you have yielded to your baser political impulses and referred to president Obama as The One.
So I'm done.
Perhaps we'll try again later? :-)
Bart DePalma said...
BTW, Facebook and Twitter were not my style either until I became involved in the Tea Party movement. It is the primary way they communicate and get out news. So when in Rome...
~~~~~~~~~~
How does one find the time, you must be exhausted. ;) You should hire a ghostwriter for facebook/twitter like palin ...
We're in touch, so you be in touch ...
Nate,
All your arguments seem centered around welfare and helping the poor. That is not my main interest in health care reform.
I DON'T WANT SUBSIDIES!
I want to save EVERYONE from paying double what they should and being kicked out for pre-existing conditions, only to make the rich richer. I want health care taken out of the for-profit market.
You can't be serious. What about anti-evolution crusades, abstinence education, anti-contraception drives, legislation actively attempting to curtail the rights of homosexuals, attempts to limit free speech, ban books, etc. etc. etc.
And as for police power, social conservatives generally support the expansion of police power at the expense of the individual. In fact, I can't think of an instance where a conservative has EVER opposed the expansion of police power in the name of liberty.
As for redefining marriage and religious free speech, I'd LOVE to see an example of the latter, and as for the former, as we have previously discussed, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why marriage inequality would violate an equal protection clause.
"Valpey said...
Left out of virtually all calculations is the added productivity to the economy when people are generally more healthy and less likely to suffer economic catastrophe due to health care needs.
A more productive economy generates more Tax revenue thereby saving all kinds of money left and right."
What!?!? Healthcare reform is not going to make our nation healthier...the fact that it is full of overweight smokers and boozers is what is causing this mess... heart disease and cancer are the leading cause of death in this courty and I am sorry to say that most of the cases are caused by people being unhealthy.
Hi,
I work for the health videos website icyou.com.
I just wanted to post a couple of videos all about healthcare reform and politics. There are clearly a lot of opinions and ideas in this discussion, but these videos may be able to answer some of your questions and provide general insight on the topic of reform.
Check 'em out!
http://www.icyou.com/channel/barack-obama-and-healthcare-reform
http://www.icyou.com/topics/politics-policy/healthcare-policy
http://www.icyou.com/topics/politics-policy/healthcare-politics
Thanks,
Laura
What do we know about the assumptions underlying the CBO forecasts for health insurance reform? Political neutrality may be a necessary condition for a reliable forecast, but it is not sufficient. (There are no sufficient conditions.)
In general, we know the players will adjust their behaviors in an effort to maximize their benefits or minimize their losses. To get a feeling for what to expect, one should try to ferret out and examine the built-in incentives from the standpoint of all the key players. Once again, what assumptions does the CBO make in its scoring approach?
The Bush tax cuts were popular; health care is not.
In a sea of strawmen and dishonesty from you this takes the cake.
You truly have no clue about politics or policy.
Health care, particularly the public option is popular.
The current bill in the Senate is not.
If the current bill was axed, and a good public option was included via reconciliation, people would be very happy.
Even if it included no protection against denials of pre-existing conditions.
The reason why is so simple: BECAUSE IF THEY GOT DENIED THE PERSON COULD GET INTO THE PUBLIC OPTION!!!!
It is funny how Nate is now a defender of insurace company profits. Makes you wonder...
It was a moral issue when Joe Lieberman was trying to stop the bill, and it's no less a moral issue now. Thousands of lives will be saved if this legislation passes.
Thousands of lives will be destroyed when they are forced to buy insurance they can not afford and will see their rates increase every year, while their wages do not.
I think it is appalling that Nate ignores the fact that the right has given nothing up. The left has given up everything important and for no reason. It hasn't changed a single vote and this bill IS worse than the status quo.
Nate,
I thought you were a numbers guy. An industry making 3.3% profit can't set record profits?
Even if the 3.3% stays the same,they will still make record profits: hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars + millions of people forced to give them money ==increased profits.
You are completely out to lunch on this, stick with extracting poll data it is all you are good at.
Have you ever heard of the filibuster?
Once something passes, it's impossible to overturn it.
Jenny it is bad enough we have to suffer from your idiotic "first?" posts, but this is terrible.
It is impossible to overturn a bill because of the filibuster?
What?
Bills get overturned quite often. It is not impossible, I suggest going back to third grade and might learn this.
Yet, rather than fighting for that inch, people are willing to let it go-- for what?
For later, Mr. Graham.
For later.
You are smarter than this.
The dems were elected to do things like the public option. A few turncoats and a cowardly President have stopped it.
There will ALWAYS be at least one Senator that can stop the public option.
If it doesn't happen now, it likely won't in the next 30 years.
What have Nelson, Lieberman, Snowe, etc given up? Where are the negotiations? The left gives something up for the right, the right says no, the left gives something else up, the right says no. At what point are people going to realize that the Senate and Obama do not have the best interests of America at heart?
The majority of Americans want single payer or a public option, the dems have the white house and 60% of both houses. You are deluding yourself if you think there will ever be a better time.
This bill is nothing more than a corporate giveaway. It is not the original social security or medicare bills. Those could be improved because they were pretty solid from day 1. There is nothing in the HRC bill to built on.
All these predictions of spiraling health care spending are silly. You can't extrapolate that going forward, because we will find ways to do health care more efficiently and we'll choose to stop buying more health care. People can only take so many pills.
You don't have a choice, you WILL buy insurance from the same companies that have let people die just to make a buck.
There is NOTHING in this bill to prevent insurance companies from letting you die to make a profit.
Insurance Companies Will Never Be Able to Drop or Deny You Coverage Because You Are Sick: Insurers can no longer deny coverage because of a pre-existing condition. They can’t rescind coverage or impose lifetime or annual limits on care. Significantly, the bill also ends insurer discrimination against women — who currently pay as much as 48% more for coverage than men — and gives them access preventive services with no cost sharing.
Yeah, but they can and will jack your rates up.
This whole debacle has turned into a big game of chicken between the Democrats and the insurance industry. Guess who's about to blink?
Merry Christmas fat cats of the insurance industry. Those aren't carolers with candelabras outside the estate gates.
Here's my Jenny impression:
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
RECONCILIATION
etc.
I cannot believe Nate Silver is this naive (the man is smarter than I am.)
I cannot believe that he is a shill for the insurance companies (that's conspiracy theory nonsense.)
I cannot believe that Mr. Silver doesn't have access to the facts (anyone can see the bill.)
What I have to believe, because I continue to see Nate Silver's reasoning on supporting this bill, is that Nate Silver is wrong.
Why, I don't know.
Passage of this bill will bring us no closer to fixing the health care problem - that $900 billion would be better spent on setting up Free Clinics across the nation than how it will be use.
Insurance companies - allowing sickness to be a for-profit business - our entire system of taking care of our citizens health - is the problem.
$900 billion thrown at helping people will help those people - and when that money is gone, and the mandates are in place, and the premiums have gone up (Nate, you do statistics - I will bet you every cent I ever make for the rest of my life that Premiums will not only increase, but increase at a greater rate than they have been increasing) - what about everyone then?
Given the option to have repaired the flood control in New Orleans and continuing to prepare for and as best as possible prevent floods would have been far better than shipping volunteers and tons of unused supplies to the survivors after Katrina happened. This bill doesn't do the former, it does the latter.
excellent analogy above from MERIN.
comparing expenssive belated yet still inadequate federal response to katrina/NoLa vs. this alleged HCR is on point
real HCR ? YES, absolutely ASAP
but just throw a few unregulated tweaks & trillions of our $$$ at private insurers with subsidies & mandates hoping t will change anything ??? NO WAY, NO HOW !!!
Medicare for all & figure out how to finance a real single-payer syatem that gives actual CARE [not insurance] access along with real cost controls = benefits all citizens + US biz competitiveness
A last word: If you think the insurance companies are going to continue their rapacious behavior unabated if the bill passes, what do you think they'll do if it fails? Before you answer, recall what they did in 1995, which was to shove the American people into HMOs without their consent.
To those who think that somehow the insurance companies regard this bill as a windfall -- the bill calls for medical loss ratios which are far more stringent than the ones they're operating with now. Right now they're somewhere around 75%, which does NOT mean they're pocketing the other 25%, as some seem to think. The other 25% is divided between their ridiculously inefficient operating costs, including bonuses paid to employees who can identify which of their insurees should be dropped via rescission. When Nate says their profit margin is 3.3%, he's not far off. The only thing he's probably missing is the huge salaries paid to top executives, which while is technically not
"profit" but is money skimmed for people who aren't doing anything for health care.
IF the medical loss ratio is set at 90% or even 85%, and IF machinery is put into the regulations to enforce that, then no, this bill will not be a windfall for the insurance companies. In point of fact, it's going to force them to cut staff pretty drastically because the process of cherry picking and rescission is expensive, and will be outlawed. In point of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some insurance companies went out of business rather than try to reshape themselves into the kind of businesses that will be profitable under the terms of the bill.
One cannot prove it today, of course, but the proof of all of this will be that if the bill DOES pass, the insurance companies are going to spend FORTUNES in 2010 and 2012 to elect enough wingnuts to repeal it.
@vilanye
The dems were elected to do things like the public option.
I may be wrong (please offer a link if I am), but I don't think "public option" was mentioned during the campaign. Obama certainly never promised it that I can recall.
Hillary pushed for individual mandates, and a lot of the most progressive Dems supported her on that, and complained that Obama's opposition to individual mandates wouldn't bring enough people into the system, and wouldn't control costs sufficiently.
What's in the Senate bill is very close to the insurance reform that Hillary campaigned on -- and now a segment of the progressives (some of whom were Hillary's most ardent supporters) no longer want it.
The problem is Lieberman. And just be grateful that Arlen Specter came over, and that Burris and Franken were seated, and that New York changed its laws to allow the governor to replace Kennedy. Without these members of the Dem caucus, the Republicans, voting in a block, wouldn't allow even this bill to pass. In fact, they'd have sat on every single bill, and we wouldn't even have a budget (which the Republicans tried to filibuster and which required the vote of every member of the Dem caucus).
Get mad. Stay mad. Defeat a few more Republicans. Replace Lieberman. Channel your anger in productive ways. If you weaken the Democratic Party, you won't see anything you want for another generation.
And don't give me that "Well, I'm not seeing what I want now!" -- two bloggers here have repeatedly listed the substantial accomplishments we've already seen. Anyone willing to give that "they're betraying us!" line is a simply a concern troll, or has the memory of turnip.
I'll amend my above comment -- I did find references in the campaign season last year to a public option as one possible way to constrain costs.
Let's get this reform passed -- it has a lot of great ideas, including Hillary's individual mandates -- and then replace a couple of Republican senators with some Dems, and come back to it after next year's elections.
If we kill health care reform now, we'll have to way another 15 - 20 years. I don't want to wait that long.
Ah, here's a note of fresh air. My senator, Al Franken, cut off Lieberman's remarks today on debating health care: read it here.
I agree with what shrinkers just said.
Also, there seems to be another item in this bill that might actually reduce cost: the state exchange. Author Jonathan Cohn (he wrote an acclaimed book called "Sick") said that this could help a lot. He also mentioned that Howard Dean supports this idea.
In hi op-ed in the Washington Post, Dr. Dean said that there were a number of good things in this bill. Add the state exchange and this bill isn't as bad as some people think.
The problem is that if no bill passes and then the opposition gets control of one of the Houses of Congress, then the process may never get restarted. That is a worst case scenario that I don't want to have happen.
Strike another blow for liberty and small government, conservatism: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/12/18/oklahoma.abortion/index.html
Hilariously, this is way worse than the BS they were spewing about having people's health info posted online as a result of HCR.
@Richard
Strike another blow for liberty and small government, conservatism:
Geez, and Republicans still tell the lie that they want small government. What lying hypocrites they are.
Hard facts:
-The US (and world) mortality rate is at 100%. Dying is not always something that is tragic or unexpected -- it's part of life. No level of health care will change this.
-If people want to live longer, there are lots of ways to do it that don't require a doctor. Many of these things are common knowledge, but ignored. (Exercise, eating right, hard work, anyone?) One great irony is that these things are better at prolonging life than health care is, except for a very small percentage of people (genetic diseases, trauma victims, catastrophic health conditions like systemic lupus, etc.)
-Cuba has very similar health outcomes to the US, and spends far less than 10% of what the US spends on health care per capita. The idea that the health disparities in this country are due to "the system," and that putting more money into is a good idea is pretty far fetched.
My opinion:
-Public assistance should be reserved for people who have catastrophic health problems that aren't their fault (lupus, schizophrenia, rheumatoid arthritis) and have high financial burdens inherent in the disease.
-Everyone else should pay out of pocket for health care, and have insurance only for catastrophes. This is not unlike how we insure drivers of cars. People are, surprisingly, often much more careful with their cars than their health. (Ever see the guy with the nice convertible driving down the street smoking a cigarette? Think he grinds the gears of his convertible or puts sugar in his gas tank? I don't think so either.)
-People who can't afford health insurance at all (the very poor) should have a medicaid-like public assistance program that covers bare minimums in health care. To extend the driving analogy, this is like taking the bus. Cheap, efficient, but not as good as a car.
-Critics of this system say it's full of inequality. This is true, but that's not a problem if you think about it -- it's unequal, and the options you have are based on what you can pay for. However, this is true of things more crucial than healthcare -- food, housing, clothing, and almost every aspect of American life are unequal and based on how much you can pay.
-Critics will also say that this system is heartless, but that's not true either. Giving people busses to ride instead of cars is not heartless. Busses are a nice thing for the public sector to provide for those who don't have cars. We don't go around buying cars for everyone who can't afford them.
-Eliminating the "Health Insurance Coverage for almost everything -- including routine things like general check-ups" model of health care would INCREASE access to health care for everyone. Suddenly, you don't need a corporate job to get health care. Suddenly, doctors don't have insurance (or government) executives overseeing everything and getting between patients and doctors. And suddenly doctors, hospitals and (perhaps especially) drug companies are incentivized to lower their prices to attract customers. Which means that if you don't have insurance at all, you have a MUCH better chance of being able to afford health care.
But this model is less 'safe,' and less PC, and doesn't involve massive bureaucracy. So nobody will go for it.
Cheers.
-Tracy
Tracy said...
Hard facts:
But this model is less 'safe,' and less PC, and doesn't involve massive bureaucracy. So nobody will go for it.
~~~~~~~~~~
Actually you presented no hard facts, but you did give your honest opinion, much of which I agree with, so thanx for that.
And pretty sure many Reps think the same as you and would definitely be on your side as their current policy is: Don't get sick, and if you do get sick, die quickly! ;)
No one here gets out alive ...
I just don't get the argument that "young, healthy" people should not be required to buy insurance they don't want. The vast majority of those people who now have pre-existing conditions were once young, healthy people. Insurance is not meant to be profitable to the customer. In a functional system, the $X dollars for insurance I "didn't need" at age 25 is part of the fund for the $50X care I need 25 years later.
Nate Silver claims that insurance companies only take 3.3% profit as their cut for involvement in the health care system. Even accepting this figure, it would show how truly inefficient this involvement is. Physicians for a National Health Program typically cite 30% or more of every health care dollar spent as the cost of this involvement. Besides profit, the cost of private insurance must include funding an army of clerks hired to deny coverage, another army of lobbyists (some estimate seven for every DC politician), the bribery of those politicians ("campaign contributions" and other perks), advertisement and propaganda (much of it sounding like Silver), not to mention the cost of devising at least 13,000 different insurance options and tracking all of them. It omits the costs to doctors and hospitals for facilities and staff to comply with all these plans and
companies.
In fact, the 30% loss of allowing the insurance industry control the health care system may be an underestimate. A thorough, unbiased, and complete investigation of the extent and character of this loss should have been made by the Congressional Budget Office, or perhaps another agency specifically delegated for this purpose, before the Obama bill was even proposed.
Meanwhile, the administrative overhead of exisiting Medicare amounts to about 3% of every dollar spent through that system.
Doctors and hospitals cure. Insurance does not. It adds no value. It only takes its cut, and wastes much more in the eating. In fact, it actually makes money when health care is NOT delivered, and therefore poses a conflict of interest with every citizen needing health care in this country. That is all of us, at one time or another.
Silver does not consider or explain the experience of other advanced countries, most of which have universal medical care at much less cost with better outcomes than the US. There are a few other countries that do allow private health insurance, usually as non-profits under strong government control. But only in the United States does the insurance industry virtually control the government. It is prepared to milk it (and by extension the rest of us) for every drop it can get. That is what the Obama bill is all about, "public option" or not.
We need an expanded and improved medicare for all! Whether or not the current administration bill collapses under its own weight, we must be prepared to fight for it. We have lost only the first round.
To do this, we also need major reform of our government and electoral process to insure its allegience to Commonwealth instead of merely to Wealth.
Dave Ecklein
The pnlic option is the only piece of the bill thacan now or ever will lead to structural change.
Insurance companies do not count their exorbitant spending on lobbying, marketing, administration and perks in profits. They will make out like the bandits they are unless stopped cold by a public competitor.
For informed commentary check out the Equal listserv. Send a blank message to:
join-equal@list.equalhealth.info
My take on the value of this bill: http://www.newmericans.com/2009/12/21/analysis-of-the-health-care-reform-legislation/
Rob
Check out http://www.FastPitches.com for more information on elevator pitches.
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