As you may know, 538 co-captain Tom Schaller and I have made a couple of bets regarding whether Sarah Palin will run for and win the 2012 Republican nomination for the Presidency. I’ve got the Palin side of both wagers: even money that she’ll run for the Presidency, and the 3-1 odds that Tom has given me on her actually emerging with the nomination. The second wager is not conditional upon the first; I’m responsible for paying Tom provided that Palin does not become the GOP nominee, whether or not she runs for it.
Tom provides two pieces of evidence against Palin running for the nomination. The first is that 2012 is a year when an incumbent, Barack Obama, will almost certainly be running for re-election, and incumbents seats are much tougher to pick up than open ones. The second is that Palin's polling has gone somewhat sour against her potential GOP rivals, which might deter her from entering.
For starters, I'd somewhat dispute Tom's unspoken assumption that Palin is liable to be looking at this decision through such a narrowly rational prism. Was quitting the Alaska governorship -- particularly in the sudden and disorganized way that Palin did it -- a decision characteristic of someone who carefully ponders all the facts and circumstances before jumping to a conclusion? Not hardly. Palin is impulsive, impatient, ambitious, thrill-seeking: not the type of politician to prudently wait for a better moment.
But assuming that Palin is rational, and that her goal is to maximize her chance of someday becoming President (or at least winning the nomination), it's not clear that 2012 is a worse bet for her than 2016. Yes, the GOP, as a whole, is likely to have a better shot at winning the Presidency in 2016 than in 2012. But Palin may also face stiffer competition within her own party in 2016. In part that's precisely because non-incumbent races end to attract stronger candidates – witness, for instance, the poor quality of the Republican field in 1996 – and in part it's because the present field of GOP rivals (Romney, et. al.) seems almost preternaturally weak. By 2016, there is more chance of a fresh face emerging, be it someone relatively new to the national scene like Bob McDonnell of Virginia, someone like Bobby Jindal who stumbled out of the gate but has a good chance to work out some of his kinks, or someone that none of us have even heard of yet.
Another motivator for Palin to run is that her opportunity cost is not very high. Having quit her governorship and apparently declining to challenge Lisa Murkowski for her Senate seat, Palin's next opportunity to run for some sort of high-stature elected office wouldn't come until 2014, when Mark Begich's seat is up in the Senate. Is Palin, who already has a reputation as a quitter, likely to run for that seat, only to have to quit again if she wants to run for the Presidency in 2016? Not hardly.
Until she runs for office again, rather, Palin's role is basically that of a celebrity on her own behalf, and a rabble-rouser on behalf of the GOP. Although each of those things can occupy a goodly amount of one’s time, the media is likely to tire of Palin if she’s not actually making news, and Palin herself may grow tired of not being the center of attention. Moreover, there’s not any evidence that laying low seems to help Palin’s standing with the public; on the contrary, her numbers seemed to have have declined a lot during the past several months, a period during which (until recently) she was not making much news.
The reason I suspect this may be the case is because Palin’s popularity seems to stem not from any particular attributes that she possesses as a candidate, but rather from the reactions that she seems to induce from other people. Only by being in the spotlight can Palin induce liberal pundits to say rude things about her, fellow candidates to behave awkwardly around her, etc. Only in this way can she be the martyr and the underdog, qualities that conceal some of her potential inadequacies. Oddly, the more attention Palin gets, the more of a Rorschach blot she becomes -- which is good for a candidate who most people don't think is qualified to be President on her own merits.
As for the polling, that's something will look at in more depth tomorrow, when I consider Palin's odds of actually winning the nomination. But even if one takes seriously polling conducted 2-3 years in advance of an election, Palin is running at the very worst in a solid second or third place, against candidates who themselves may or may not run for the White House. That's hardly an impossible position. What were Chris Dodd's odds of emerging with the Democratic nomination last year, in a field that was likely to include some combination of Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, and Barack Obama? What are Tim Pawlenty's in 2012? (Hint: not very high.) The vast majority of candidates running for a Presidential nomination have done so facing substantially longer odds than Palin. And arguably, being incumbent senators or governors (insert crack about "actual responsibilities"), they've given up a lot more in order to do so. Palin has the means, motive, and opportunity to run for the Presidency in 2012, and I'd be surprised if she fails to do so.
11.16.2009
Why Palin Will Run for President in 2012
by Nate Silver @ 8:37 PM
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262 comments
Off topic...but request of Nate...please do analysis on NY 23, Hoffman says he is unconceding...
Personally, I think its great that people contest close elections, if nothign else, and close review serves as a great audit to our elections systems...and there is nothing more important to a democracy than a tight, reliable, auditable, fraud-free election systems.
Palin would have to keep the "popularity" going for another year...without a real presidential race (till the end of 2010). Then a solid YEAR of pre-primary campaigning before the Iowa Caucuses. And just said "She's not running" again.
Unlikely. She'll fall out of the media spotlight before that.
In regards to NY-23, not too surprising with the margin of victory getting so close.
I must have come here 50 times today waiting for this story to be posted after reading this morning's article, and it was totally worth the wait. 2012 is going to be hilarious. Yay!
Heck, I want to re-register as a Republican just so I can vote her in the primary. Then re-affiliate as a Democrat for the general. Remember when Limbaugh urged his listeners to do the same after McCain had the Republican primary sewed up?
How you like us now, Limbaugh?
This is gonna be great!
I think Sarah Palin is to the Republican Party what the Glenn Close character was to Michael Douglas's in Fatal Attraction.: a passing flirtataion, a brief, giddy, exciting fling... that somehow turns into something unimaginably dangerous and destructive.
Palin will not win the nomination. As a result the enraged teabaggers will mount a third party run with Palin as its spearhead.
The Republican party will be decimated by the ensuing civil war, and will not recover for decades. Sarah Palin will become one of the most famous women in American history... along with the likes of Mary Mallon and Catherine O'Leary.
That's a reasonable analysis depending on her motivations. Does Palin want power, celebrity, or money more?
If it's power, obviously Palin should run as she will only be weaker in 2016. But then she probably wouldn't have quit her job. In this case she would run.
If it's celebrity, Palin might have to run to keep her star power and risk facing the reality that she may be a flash in the pan who will never be as famous again (think Dan Quayle's short-lived bid). Or she could stake out a more permanent spot on Fox News or some such outlet and guarantee a few years of relevance, but she would fade out eventually while running would give her a chance at winning and thus fame for life. In this case the choice is far from clear.
If it's money, running will mean raising and spending a lot and not being able to cash in on lucrative deals. And if Palin burns out, that's it. By not running, she could continue to rake in speaking fees, book deals, and cushy TV gigs. In this case she would absolutely not run.
The "actual responsibilities" link isn't working for me.
Excellent analysis, I agree on all points. As for the question of whether Palin would win the nomination, I eagerly await your post, but I think it depends on whether or not there is a shift in party ID back to the Republicans. The Republican base loves Palin, but she has very little appeal to most voters outside of that base. So I think that if the GOP can get its act together and appeal to moderates again, then Palin is toast, someone else will win the primary. However, if the Republican brand is still weak and moderates still identify as independents or Democrats, the base voters will make up a much larger proportion of the Republican primary voter pool and would have a very good chance of propelling Palin to victory. (The lack of a competitive primary on the Democratic side in 2012 would likely hurt Palin here, at least in states with open primaries- if nothing interesting's happening on the Democratic side, centrist voters would likely want to weigh in on the Republican race.)
Can you un-concede? Is that even a word? And why go to the trouble? Isn't Owens only in the seat for a short while and isn't NY-23 being redistricted? Besides, Owens already cast his vote on health care.
Fair is fair. No take-backys.
Hey, let's organize a massive write-in campaign on Palin's behalf and see what mayhem ensues.
There's a difference between running and winning the nomination. The former is probable, but the latter is highly improbable.
*
RUN SARAH, RUN!
RUN SARAH, RUN!
RUN SARAH, RUN!
RUN SARAH, RUN!
RUN SARAH, RUN!
I agree with much of both of your analyses. The question boils down to 2: her rationality and our own biases. I'm pretty sure that she's irrational and that I see so much red with her that I'm unsure of the first one.
(Contrary to BDP's assertion in the comments on Tom's post, I don't think liberals are scared of Palin as much as they hate her, and love to see her suffer. Sure, we're going to hell for it, but hate, while often caused by fear, is not the same thing)
Palin/Hoffman,Baby,Hoffman '12
I find it honestly amazing how many "liberals" here are so...enthusiastic...to see Palin run...and even win the Primary. Why? You don't want to see her win. Wouldn't you want a more moderate Republican to run, say, Pawlenty or Crist, so that if the bottom fell out of the economy and voters deserted the democrats in droves because of it, you'd HAVE a moderate in the White House?
*
Tina Fey is about to become a Billionaire (Cha-CHING!)
I don't hate Sarah Palin... I actually admire her quite a bit. The woman is brash, she's spunky, she's got chutzpah that won't quit.
I thought it was dazzling the way she took on that interview with Joe Biden while knowing how little she actually knows... and how the whole country was waiting breathlessly for her to fall on her face. Yet she gallantly winked and mugged and bluffed her way thorugh an ordeal that would have paralyzed almost any sentient person.
You have to admire that kind of nerve, you really do.
But on a deeper level I'm enchanted by the layers of priceless irony that make up the Sarah Palin phenomenon. I truly think this woman is going to bring down the GOP. And the fact that America's staid, solid, moralizing party of Old White Guys is going to be destroyed from within by an incurious cutie-pie with hair extensions and painted toenails... well, it's just DELICIOUS.
God, how I love politics! LOL...
One thing in her favor---Obama and Hillary have already proven having virtually no qualifications is not a negative in getting a presidential nomination. Course, there may be a backlash to this in 2012.
I think it is unfortunate that FiveThirtyEight is reducing itself to placing this much emphasis on Sarah Palin. You need page views and apparently have decided that writing this article was worth the "opportunity cost."
Have you run out of topics to cover? I would hardly think so.
Surely, you have some numbers as to what types of people visit this website, but I'll hazard a guess that most of us are political junkies. We're the sort that really want to delve into the dynamics that will shift power. That's why your statistical analysis in the past has been so compelling.
Puff pieces like this one are a waste of your time and mine.
There are 435 House races up next year and a bit more than a third of the Senate seats up for grabs. Many of these will be competitive. If you don't have data on these races or cannot make statistical cases for them, I would rather read speculation on arguments about these races than stuff like this piece.
If Delaware is such a big opportunity for Republicans, I would like to know more about the challengers there and why they have opportunity. You've covered Delaware. Okay. So give me analysis on another race. Take the purple House districts and start analyzing those. Every one of them.
To me, that is far more relevant. We're talking about a potential shift in the power held by one branch of government. That's huge! Will the Democrats suffer a net loss of Senate seats in 2010 (loss of supermajority)? That's huge!
Obama is not going to lose his reelection bid; I have not even checked what your projections are on that or if you've made such projections. You're the statistical genius and you know the demographics, the past trends, all that stuff. I know much of it as well. So don't waste time on this, particularly on someone like Sarah Palin and particularly not in 2009, less than one year after Obama took office!
@Pat
We also want the most beatable opponent. Crist won't run but he would have a slightly better shot in the general as a "bipartisan" deal maker. Pawlenty FYI is rabidly conservative but puts a nice face on it.
I'm not sure I want to see Palin nominated, but if the economy crashes again, I doubt voters flock to her. Palin is damaged goods in the Presidential election.
Comments about Putin rearin' his ugly head and thanks but no thanks (but really thanks ;O) to the bridge to nowhere aren't gonna convince anyone that she is prepared to deal with a crisis. I mean, what if it gets too hard and she quits halfway through? It's happened before.
The only thing that would 'terrify' me is if Palin picked Gingrich as a running mate. She might have a chance of winning then since we all know that Republican VPs are actually in charge.
She's not rational (she'll run) and she won't be the nominee. Being Ron Paul-on-steroids won't be enough for a number of reasons which aren't really worth going into this far out.
That being written, please make my 2011: RUN HALF-BAKED, RUN!!!
ooops... I meant DEBATE with Joe Biden...
I can't wait to see the mud fight between Sarah and the tag team of Romney and Huckabee.
Huckabee will pound her for being a quiter.
And Romney will attack her day and night for raising taxes (Yup, she raised taxes on oil and gas).
Yeah, a couple bad bounces in world events and the economy and almost anyone without a D behind their name could end up getting elected.
President Sarah would be the end of the US as an influential power.
Can you imagine being any world leader and having to sit down for a serious talk with Sarah? And her husband I suppose.
The only hope would be to secretly substitute Tina Fey into place.
She's running. I didn't believe it until I watched her on Oprah today. Anything can happen to change the situation, but as of today, her plan is to run.
It is as throughout all Alaska that big wild good life teeming along the road that is north to the future.
I breathed in an autumn bouquet that combined everything small-town America with rugged splashes of the Last Frontier.
Dang, I thought. Divorce Todd? Have you seen Todd?
My guesses about the outomes of Nate's bets:
1) Sarah will run if it looks like that's best for Sarah. Selling books, paid speeches, somebody to pay her expenses, money for travel and handlers. If teasing about running is the best option, that's as far as she'll go. If filing the paperwork to create a candidate committee will bring her more, she'll throw her hat in the ring.
2) Becoming the Republican nominee? No. Sarah can't meet the very low threshold of competence needed to win that campaign. I'm not claiming the Republicans demand attributes like integrity, vision, intelligence, or wisdom - the past eight years have forever disproven such an idea. But if you have nothing upstairs, at the very least you have to turn everything over to somebody else and NOT INTERFERE WITH THEM. Sarah combines incompetence with control-freakishness, which just can't work. W was stupid, but he more or less understood that and learned long ago to let himself be ordered about. Sarah is so stupid that she's apparently unaware of it.
I don't remember the details, but recently Sarah was booked as a major speaker at some right-wing fundraiser. She was neither able to work out the details herself, nor willing to allow anybody else to do them for her, so she ended up NOT on the program. Whenever somebody combines a fear of delegating with personal incompetence, there's no way to get around the inevitable roadblocks. I'm afraid Sarah has already risen to her level of incompetence.
NATE
at this point I would predict that you will lose on the first proposition & more possibly still WIN on the seconf prop.
going by her impulsive 'rogue' history to date, my bet would be that Palin will avoid formally running for the 2012 GOP nomination [at least in the early primaries]
so where does you cut-off date for that prop start/end ?
my bet is Sarah will continue to play the tease & hold out for a 'draft Palin' as saviour of the party when the Huckkabees & Romnets & T-Paw et al fail to launch
she will in the meantime in the spotlight on the immediate sidelines waiting for the call [just as the VP call came last second]
also that would dampen the 3rd party -Tea bagger challenges from the right
this way she avoids all that nasty public appearance/policy speechifying stuff & counts on a late surge to carry her through a short attention-span election
so YES I do believe Palin will/could end up as the GOP POTUS nominee - especially at the odds you are given, it
imho my smart money says it is worth taking the bet on your side since I give this DRAFT tactic a 50/50 chance right now
but I seriously doubt Sarah has the intestinal fortitude or political endurance to go the entire distance of an 18 - 24 month declared candidacy - and for her waiting to be DRAFTED makes the most sense
OTOH, I believe that very well might have been Al Gore's strategy for 2008 - wait until later in a nasty primary season for Edwards/Clinton/Obama et al to cancel each other out & then get drafted - but BHO pulled it off instead by virtually sealing the DEM nomination early
this sorta reminds me of the PATS going for it on 4th down @ their own 28 with 2+ minutes remaining
by not converting, they allowed the COLTS to easily steal a victory
that is what Palin will count on in 2012 - for her opposition to fail to convert their earlier opportunity so she can jump in & be the 'heroine' at the last minute
"But assuming that Palin is rational..."
Why anyone would bother making this contrary-to-all-evidence-and-observation assumption escapes me. Please justify?
Your logic is in order. She will run for the sheer purpose of gathering material for her follow up book. Going Rogue 2.0
Michael... perhaps the First Dude will begin losing his hair, in which case a good title for the sequel would be Going Rogaine...
(Okay, I'll stop now :-)
How is the second part of the bet affected if Palin runs as a third party candidate?
Brad Engelmann said...
I think it is unfortunate that FiveThirtyEight is reducing itself to placing this much emphasis on Sarah Palin.
~~~~~~~~~~
Currently palin is easily the most interesting topic the Reps have going. Unfortunately for them she just reinforces how they are not be taken seriously ~ and have become a group of extreme, negative, always playing the victim, bat shit crazies.
BDP keeps saying, Nate and the rest of the liberals are scared of palin, so we can't stop talking about her. She obviously put a spell on us! ;)
As the winter holidays are now upon us and palin is the gift that keeps on giving, quite appropriate she should be the topic of the day as she tries to lead conservatives out of the wilderness and into the promised land ...
Palin has been running for President since she resigned as Alaska's governor. If her Facebook political journalism, intervention in NY-23, barnstorming the nation fundraising for conservative GOP 2010 candidates and book tour of battleground states in the heartland does not convince you of this fact, go watch today's Oprah Show.
I just finished watching the show on TIVO and Palin is infinitely smoother and more nuanced that she was 15 months ago when the McCain campaign threw her into the deep end of the shark tank without preparation.
In particular, the segment where Palin described how she briefly considered how easy it would be to abort Trigg when she first learned he would be a Downs child was pitch perfect. It reestablished her belief in life while expressing empathy for those who chose abortion and have been mislead into believing that Sarah was some sort of religious right harpy.
Oprah then showed video of the Palin family at home last Halloween in the style of home video. Clan Palin looked like any number of my neighbors up here in small town Colorado. When was the last time a candidate of either party seemed like normal folk instead of one of the cast from the Rich and Powerful? Andy Jackson?
When Oprah wrapped up with a half joking question asking Palin whether she was going to become a rival talk show host, Palin turned her answer into a tribute of how Oprah was an inspiration to her as a stay at home mom in the 90s to go on to achieve her dreams. The Oprah was obviously shocked and more than a little tickled.
This is a woman who is publicly launching a presidential bid on the Oprah Show.
As an aside, Oprah's audience from deep blue Chicago gave Palin an enthusiastic ovation when she walked on stage. Now Sarah enjoys the highest and most enthusiastic approval among Republicans, but not among Dems and Indis, if one is to believe the polls. I doubt the Oprah would allow Palin to pack the place with her supporters, so the reception was very interesting.
As to windows of opportunity, 2012 will very likely be better than 2016. Of note:
1) Obama's approval has collapsed at an historic pace in the first year since the election.
2) 2010 is appearing more and more like a 1994 level wave election repudiating Dem left governance. Clinton recovered nicely by riding the 1994 conservative wave. However, can anyone seriously see Obama declaring that the era of big government is over?
3) Unless employment takes off by the end of 2011 as it did at the end of 1983, Obama will be a one term President no matter who the GOP runs. Obama is not doing a thing to reduce the burden of government on job creation and is in fact proposing ways to make that burden far heavier. Government motors is a basket case. As 2011 turns into 2012, it is very likely that unemployment may remain above the 7.9% team Obama claimed would be the worst case without the Porkulus.
2012 looks like an ideal year to run for President as a small government, pro growth conservative candidate. Cue the Rogue from Alaska.
SHILOH
I'm not dyslexic, but I would have typed it as:
"[Palin] lead[s] conservatives out of the promised land and into the wilderness"...
btw - stepped on any reptile tails [or tales] lately ???
DCM in FL said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Speaking of religion, after reading BDP's post, he must be a strong believer in conservative divine intervention!
And although I spent several years in the USN, don't have any red or black rose tattoos ...
Nate:
This polling would be a great topic for tomorrow's post. Stanford noted that support for amorphous health insurance proposals completely craters when actual provisions of the Obamacare bills is added to the questions.
Excellent analysis of Mrs. Palin.
I had a thought about the possibility of her running recently, which was in a similar line to your thinking: "What else is she going to do?"
I just don't think she'd be satisfied with anything else. I think she's going to go for it.
And I'm not one of those liberals who thinks it'll be a breeze for Mr. Obama to beat her. I think it will be a very difficult race. Remember those weird rallies Mrs. Palin held? All those angry white people "clutching their Bibles and their guns," screaming "Terrorist" and "Traitor" about Mr. Obama?
I think, if Mrs. Palin decides to run, it'll force this country to take a hard, painful look at itself. I honestly don't know what we'll decide.
Brendan Garbee don't get yourself to worked up. Your letting irrational fear creep in. She might run but has no chance of being the republican candidate but might go totally rouge and be an indie. Still that's only worth 18-20% in a general at best.
Agree with Nate that Sarah will run -- tipoff being a quote from her just after the '08 elections:
"I'm like, OK God, if there is an open door for me somewhere, this is what I always pray, I'm like, don't let me miss the open door. Show me where the open door is," she said.
"Even if it's cracked up a little bit, maybe I'll plough right on through that and maybe prematurely plough through it, but don't let me miss an open door.
"Oprah then showed video of the Palin family at home last Halloween in the style of home video. Clan Palin looked like any number of my neighbors up here in small town Colorado. When was the last time a candidate of either party seemed like normal folk instead of one of the cast from the Rich and Powerful?"
.....Obama? His family sure resembles plenty of my neighbors.
BDP
even you gotta admit that Sarah is THE gift that keeps right on giving...
check out the 2 newest posts at Political Wire tonight:
'Palin Hints at Possible White House Bid'
ABC News got a copy of Sarah Palin's new book and notes she "maintains that she wasn't motivated 'alone' by an ambition to seek higher office when she stepped down as governor of Alaska.
Palin suggests, however, that her resignation has left her in a strong position to run for president by touting comments by Republican strategist Mary Matalin who thinks Palin's move was "brilliant."
>>> Meanwhile, a new CBS News poll finds that 48% of Republicans do not want Sarah Palin to run for president, while 44% like the idea.
[and my personal fav tonight]
'Palin Contradicts Herself'
"This time, there wasn't a family vote. Other steps in my political life, I've polled the kids, and I have abided by some of the results of the polls that the kids have partaken in. This time, no."
-- Sarah Palin, in an interview today with Oprah Winfrey, on deciding to run for vice president.
"It was a time of asking the girls to vote on it, anyway. And they voted unanimously, yes. Didn't bother asking my son because, you know, he's going to be off doing his thing anyway, so he wouldn't be so impacted by, at least, the campaign period here."
-- Palin, in an interview with Sean Hannity in September 2008.
===================================
BDP - say it ain't so - Saint Sarah LIED ??? !!! ROFLOL
she alone will keep Stewart & Colbert et al with lots of fodder on the airways for at least another 3 years - plus Rush & Beck & Hannity of course
this will be funnie if it was not so pathetically tragic
BDP:
I really doubt that the audience was as blue as Chicago is. It's her fans that would've been scrambling for tickets, and they do exist everywhere; they would have flown out to see her be on a nationally televised show, if for nothing else than to cheer on every inane thing she said.
Not to mention Oprah has those "Applause" signs. It'd look bad for Oprah if Palin walked out to dead silence or booing, wouldn't it? Palin would've just turned right around, since she doesn't speak to anyone who doesn't agree with her already.
As for her running? I hope she does. I really do. Because she will ride on a small wave of irrationally hateful, gun-toting, bitter conservatives who think they're in control just because they shout the loudest about their own morality... while they have affairs, beat their spouses and children, get into drunken brawls, shoot each other while hunting, shoot themselves while cleaning their firearms, and are just as human as the rest of us, only more hypocritical.
There will be clansmen voting for Palin. That's fine. There will be neo-nazis voting for her, too. She will break the GOP and true independents (Not the newly-christened 'independents' who voted for Bush twice because of the R by his name and now regret it).
What the religious right started in decades past, Palin brings to fruition. She will play to her base, incite violence, and change Washington by tainting the far right's God delusion.
And her supporters will be beaten down. Not by Obama. Not by the black hawks. But by the REAL America, all those faces that are hated irrationally for color or creed or philosophy, but still have a voice... and the same second amendment rights that all citizens share, should Palin's moral minority start using violence.
Run, Sarah, Run.
She's the best hope for us to examine the role of faith in our lives, and break the far right's siege mentality by laying bare the lies and hatred that underpin the current 'conservative' movement.
Oprah then showed video of the Palin family at home last Halloween in the style of home video. Clan Palin looked like any number of my neighbors up here in small town Colorado. When was the last time a candidate of either party seemed like normal folk instead of one of the cast from the Rich and Powerful?
Bart, in all seriousness, what do you think the Obama house looked like on Halloween prior to his election? I mean, seriously, you have this "cluelessness and fear", to use your phrase, about people not from "small town Colorado". What, do you think they hold sensitivity training courses for Malia and Sasha on how "ghosts" should be referred to as the "vitally challenged"? Do you think they refuse to celebrate Halloween because it isn't a Kenyan Muslim tradition?
In 2007, Todd Palin made $92,000 and Sarah Palin made $125,000, putting them in the top 3% of income. Now, I'll admit, you're a lawyer so that probably seems like chump change to you, but to me, that seems pretty well-off. (Nothing like the Clintons or the McCains, of course.)
yeah note that Nate is not laying any bet on Palin winning the election
I do believe that in this environment the GOP base could actually nominate her for POTUS in 2012 or 2016
but I believe that her ceiling is 40% max of a national vote total, and it would be highly concentrated in the deep south & a few plains/mountain states that BHO is not gonna win in 2012 anyway - oh, and maybe she would hold AK.
imho the GOP would most likely be fortunate to garner at most 140 EV, which would be even worse than McCain
further dividing the country into deep RED & BLUE states - but also drag down the GOP congressional candidates in the BLUE states
GO PALIN GO !!!
The subsequent record of losing VP candidates since the Civil War is dreadful. FDR lost in 1920 but won in 1932. Nixon won as VP (twice) but lost to Kennedy in 1960 before winning in 1968. Bush 41 won in 1988 but lost in 1992. (Obviously I'm excluding VP's who ascended to the Presidency upon the death of the elected one.)
There's a reason for this. In most cases, the VP nominee is chosen by one man -- the one who's won the Presidental nod. IF the VP nominee has managed to build a political base of his own, he can go on to win the Presidency -- FDR had his in what was then the nation's largest state, Nixon took eight years to rebuild his, and Bush 41 had been in the public spotlight both in Texas and the rest of the country for years.
Otherwise, it don't happen. To cite the postwar examples, Henry Wallace laid an egg, Alben Barkley sank without trace, Nixon lost the first time he stepped out from Ike's shadow and his VP, Henry Lodge, also disappeared. William Miller returned to obscurity after 1964. Humphrey lost. Sargent Shriver -- puleeze. Bob Dole lived to run for President 20 years after losing...and lost again. Anybody heard lately from Dan Quayle lately? Jack Kemp was not a factor after 1996. Al Gore lost a supposedly unloseable race. Joe Lieberman ran for President in 2004 and was dead by New Hampshire. John Edwards was a distant third last year (thank God). Oh, my bad. How could I have overlooked Walter Mondale and Geraldine Ferraro?
With the exception of the three men I mentioned at the top plus, arguably, Humphrey, Dole, and Kemp, the losing VP nominees were put on the ticket not for what they brought to it in terms of national prominence or a political base, but for ticket balance or some other perceived political advantage.
Now think about it, people? Who among you even knew how to pronounce Palin's name before last August? Palin was chosen for the same reason Ferraro was -- a play for the women's vote. The play didn't work, and in fact backfired when, as was the case with Ferraro, she came to be seen as out of her league.
Palin is the 2008 version of Dan Quayle, with the difference being that Bush 41 ran as the successor to a highly popular President, whereas McCain ran under the shadow of an unpopular one at the very moment that the economy of which that President had been steward for eight years collapsed.
Palin was also chosen because she was able to express quite well the ultimate strategy of a doomed Republican candidate -- "the media are out to get me, we're the underdogs, a vote for us is a form of striking back at liberal oppressors." And obviously that is what she's planning to run on in 2012. It didn't work in 2008, of course, since the liberal oppressors had been out of office for eight years.
But it might work in 2012 just well enough to get her the nomination over other candidates who can't express that horseshit as well as she does. But to this point, she's going about it all wrong. She isn't building a base for herself beyond the farthest corner of the right, and even there she's appealing mainly to those who may not even be participating as Republicans in 2012. Unlike Nixon after his losses in 1960 and 1962, she isn't trying to build a coalition within the Republican Party that will support her, and it's hard to see how she's going to be able to run for them in 2012.
All of that said, the complete collapse of the moderate wing of the Republican Party makes it impossible for me to cover Nate's bet. When people like Grassley give voice to hysterical crap like the "death panel" nonsense, who knows what else Republicans may be capable of doing?
Palin will not run because by then, Bachman will have locked up that demographic.
Nate, I really hope Palin is paying attention to your blog. I hope you'll title your next post "Run, Palin, Run!". It's not just that I think she's a great thing for democrats, but I enjoy the entertainment. If Palin runs in 2012 the fun would be nonstop.
The door opener for Palin:
James Earl Carter, redux.
If Obama keeps using that Blame America First playbook, there will be no second term.
We've been to this movie before. Complete with the snark about the challenger being a lightweight and a quitter.
"Drill, baby, drill" - a golden moldy oldie
does she spout that nonsense on Oprah or Barbara Walters ???
talk about your policy position...
I wonder if that motto refers to the men in her life - Levi & the Toddster
btw - would Todd [who apparently also cannot keep his own zipper closed] be perceived as another boon for this family values candidate of the far-right ???
perhaps Bristol will charm us with another baby conceived out of wedlock [like her own mom did for her]
or her meth-head son can relapse ??? many can relate to that, especially in the rural areas & deep south
so many tragic dysfunctional stories yet to be revealed...
Nate, you're missing that if she doesn't run in 2012 and another Republican manages to win the presidency, then she has no chance at all of winning in 2016. That's another reason to run in 2012.
Nate, I'm surprised you never seem to mention Gen. Petraeus as a potential Republican candidate for 2016 - he seems like the most obvious potential candidate to me, and he hasn't exactly attempted to conceal his political ambitions.
What if Palin is to GOP as Obama is to Dems? I am concerned.
Second, anyone else been surprised by their parents saying that they LIKE Palin's ideas?
Relax.
Half-baked will never again be elected to a position with anywhere near as much power as that of the Governor of Alaska.
brian…
There’s a great gulf between having no experience and having no brains.
But go Sarah! I might sign up as a Republican too for the California primary, except that I know how these things can backfire. Remember that inviting Hitler into the Weimar government in 1933 was thought to be a way to neutralize him.
Can anyone imagine what Palin in the presidency would be like?
(When she said “Drill, baby drill!” Levi Johnston thought she was talking to him.)
I think we underestimate how important it is to be likeable. How did George Bush win the first election when the economy was doing great during the Clinton years (don't give me the florida crap ... Gore should have won big given the economic climate). How did Mike Huckabee almost snag the Gop nomination last year? I think a lot of people thought George Bush was "one of them" and liked him better personally (didn't turn out too well did it). Same thing with Mike Huckabee. I am not crazy about him as a candidate ... but I think he is a likeable fellow ... and if you believe that all polliticians are theiving stinking lying no good sons of (*(*(*
... then why not vote for the guy you like?
I think a lot will depend on how Sarah Palin does. If she continues to bumble interviews ... then she has no chance. If she improves, and polishes her game ... then she has a very good chance. She is likeable ... and if she demonstrates some degree of competance ... she will be formidable. If she continues to bungle ... she will remain a laughing stock.
I think its best to take a wait and see attitude. If she bungles ... liberals don't need to pile on her ... she will do it to herself. If she comes across as competant ... then liberals play right into conservative naratives.
How prescient is this?
Written two days after Palin lost the election:
Daily Kos: The Wilderness Years
by Adam B
Fri Nov 07, 2008
__________________________________
[...]
"There are many in our party, and in the DailyKos community, who believe that Gov. Sarah Palin is finished in public life, that she has been humiliated, disgraced and permanently retired to an ice floe off the Pribilof Islands for a long, quiet life of snowmobile races and muktuk dinners. I am not among them.
The media loves a comeback story, as will her die-hard band of loyalists. So after some time outside the public eye, expect Palin's memoir to come out in the next year or two, with appearances on all the major news magazine shows and daytime chat shows. She'll call up Hannity and Limbaugh when she gets bored, and even Hugh Hewitt when she's really bored.
Palin will be the most in-demand GOP fundraiser in the country, and will begin to build her own network of contacts and supporters in all the key states.
And she will gain over time the one thing she was missing this cycle, and it isn't "experience" but what experience is often a proxy for -- mastery. What Gov. Palin needs to do if she is to return to national politics is to find ways to convince people that she knows what she's talking about, and this can be done. She can develop her own views on the role of government and America's role in the world."
[...]
"Yes, my friends, we will have Sarah Palin to kick around once more, and she will be formidable. Mark my words."
__________________________________
full article at: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/655558/-The-Wilderness-Years
And Palin's attacks on media, reminds you of Nixon... (see above article)
I personally hope that Palin does not run. Why?
I don't think that the Reps are stupid enough to actually pick her as thier candidate. However, she will siphon off votes from the far right, leading to a Rep candidate who is more to the center. That candidate will have a better chance in the general.
However, if Palin does run, I hope she wins the nomination, because I don't see her as having a chance in hell in the general.
Good analysis, Nate, but I think you're making some faulty assumptions too. For example, you assume that Palin's "goal is to maximize her chance of someday becoming President (or at least winning the nomination)". As an Alaskan and former constituent of Palin, I just don't think this is true. Her actions, especially resigning from the governorship, and her justifications for those actions do not indicate that she has any desire to become president. When she resigned she was constantly talking about "making a difference from outside the bureaucracy" and "protecting her family from the media". She may not be totally rational, but I think she's figured out that she can rake in more cash by giving speeches and writing books for people who already agree with her than she can by continuing to run for elective office, especially national office. Same goes for the Senate; Palin's never been a legislator and I don't see any reason to think she's got designs on either Murkowski's or Begich's Senate seat (fortunately).
Palin was my governor for three years and I respected her performance in office, but the national stage seems to have turned her into a different creature. Still, I think most outside Alaska - even pundits - have an incomplete picture of her character and motivation.
@daniel
Those are my feeling too on Huckabee. Nice guy, gives that warm fuzzy feeling at a personal level (no, GWB never was that to me)...but there would have to be some serious airborne pork before I'd give him the nod for President.
Hell I think highly of John McCain, even as an elected official. But the job President is just out of is pay scale IMO, he doesn't have the temporment for it. Senator is where he can contribute.
But there are lots and lots of people that seem willing vote primarily for a likable [public] personality. *shrug* Being able to communicate with people, to put them at ease, isn't the worst skill for a President to have. For me though that's a little down the list. I'd rather someone more than a figurehead, even though I know there is still going to be a LOT of work delagated out in any event.
chris said...
And Palin's attacks on media, reminds you of Nixon...
~~~~~~~~~~
Nixon's 1st impression in national politics = being Eisenhower's v-p for (8) years.
Palin's 1st political impression on the national stage = McCain picking her for v-p totally unvetted, a conservative, family value politician w/an unwed pregnant daughter, consistently lying about selling Alaska governor's airplane on eBay, the Charlie Gibson interview, the Katie Couric interview, quitting as governor of Alaska.
Whereas American's do have short term memories, many conservatives still remember Carter ;) as many Dems, moderate Independents, etc. will remember the previous administration for quite some time and w/Palin staying in the news 24/7 she's unforgettable too.
Unforgettable thats what you are..
Unforgettable though near or far..
Like a song of love that clings to me
how the thought of you does things to me
never before has someone been more
Unforgettable in every way
Again, all I ask for is consistency and Palin is a consistent pathological liar and whiner!
Washington Post-ABC News poll (the WaPo is stating 'new poll' with a date of November 15, 2009 - not sure when the actual polling took place):
Q: If Palin runs for president in 2012, would you definitely vote for her, would you consider voting for her, or would you definitely not vote for her?
Definitely would - 9%
Would consider - 37%
Definitely would not - 53%
No opinion - 1%
Three years out, and the 'no opinion' factor is FAR below what most polls show a week prior to most elections? Indicates that a LOT of people have made up their minds already.
Q: Regardless of whether or not you'd vote for her,
do you think Palin is or is not qualified to serve as president?
Is qualified - 38%
Is not qualified - 60%
No opinion - 3%
I would wager the 'is' or 'is not qualified' question to be the more important factor, and the most difficult to move. The 'is not qualified' opinion is largely based on the mid-September through post-election perception the voters had of her - in other words, voters' first impression of Ms. Palin. As the old saying goes (and Shiloh is fond of repeating), "It's impossible to make a first impression a second time."
Mike in Maryland
Her fake pregnancy is going to destroy her political ambitions.
@Larry clark
Her fake pregnancy is going to destroy her political ambitions.
What if she doesn't have any political ambitions (as in elected office)? Remember she quit as governor, and no politician does that however rogue you are.
Does the 'fake pregnancy' help her celebrity, talk-show future? If Palin is hiding something controversial about her or her family, isn't she maximizing what she can get? Palin must be so smart! (or she will end up in an asylum when the whole thing hits the fan.)
Republicans have a tradition in that the person who finished second on the previous nomination will get the next nomination. If you don't believe me review the history on all the previous presidential elections. So if Sarah runs in the 2012 election and finishes second, she will get the party nomination in 2016.
Go Sarah!! /s
"So if Sarah runs in the 2012 election and finishes second, she will get the party nomination in 2016."
Why Sarah? Anyone can run in '12 and get the party nomination in '16 in that case. I don't think a conservative party like the GOP will be foolish to invest in a "rogue" like Sarah four years in advance.
Mr. Universe has it right, good dems need to register as repubs in early primary states and vote for Palin. She is the best thing that could happen to repubs...
Persuter said...
BD: Oprah then showed video of the Palin family at home last Halloween in the style of home video. Clan Palin looked like any number of my neighbors up here in small town Colorado. When was the last time a candidate of either party seemed like normal folk instead of one of the cast from the Rich and Powerful?
Bart, in all seriousness, what do you think the Obama house looked like on Halloween prior to his election?
You mean the $1.3 million small mansion Tony Rezco financed for Obama? Most likely the place was empty and the Obamas were campaigning. When was the last time the Obamas were at home with their extended family and not on the campaign trail?
The dynamics of winning a GOP primary process favour more "extreme" candidates who can excite the base, raise money, and build an army of volunteer organisers. No other GOP potential candidate can match Palin in this regard. Already a "new CBS News poll finds that 48% of Republicans do not want Sarah Palin to run for president, while 44% like the idea." But 44% is plenty when the other 48% are split between several alternative candidates - none of which comes close to 44% support. She is thus now already the leading GOP contender with all the advantages of momentum, fundraising and media profile this confers.
But how would her nomination effect the Dems? Surely it would help to motivate their base, fundraising and organisational efforts and help in the recruitment of independents to their cause? This would have implications not just for the Presidential but for the Congressional elections as well.
It is very difficult for the incumbent party to motivate its base because of all the defeats and compromises that Governing entails. Sarah Palin could be just what the Dems need to achieve precisely that.
Intrade runs a market on Palin, but I wouldn't want to bet either way. I agree she wants to run right now, but a lot can change in three years. What if Osama bin Laden is captured? What if there comes a couple of el Niño years, or a Katrina-level natural disaster, or something similar to put global warming into the headlines again? What if health care reform becomes a raging success, or a bitter fiasco?
Long-term bets is not something I want to do, unless maybe I can get a really diversified portfolio of them.
BdP-
Rezko financed Obama's house? Ya, right - Obama was a millionaiire from his book deals and Michelle was pulling in 300K a year as a lawyer for U of Chicago. Keep lying though, it reduces your limited credibility further.
Harald Korneliussen said...
I agree she wants to run right now, but a lot can change in three years. What if Osama bin Laden is captured? What if there comes a couple of el Niño years, or a Katrina-level natural disaster, or something similar to put global warming into the headlines again? What if health care reform becomes a raging success, or a bitter fiasco?
You make a good point that there is some time to go before Palin would announce her candidacy and things can definitely change. However, the only two things I can think that would derail Palin's campaign before it is officially announced is either that Team Obama digs up some really toxic slime on Palin's family to blackmail her or employment unexpectedly surges, making Obama a prohibitive favorite ala Reagan 1984.
I am having a very hard time seeing a left Dem with long term 8-10% unemployment winning reelection in a center right nation in 2012. Obama is not FDR. A majority of the country does not approve of his economic policies and hardly views him as a transformative savior.
However, the only two things I can think that would derail Palin's campaign before it is officially announced is either that Team Obama digs up some really toxic slime on Palin's family to blackmail her
Baghdad, Obama doesn't want to derail Palin, he wants her to be the GOP nominee.
From HotAir regarding the lastest WAPO/ABC poll:
"After a while, it gets to be a broken record, but we still have to ask: does anyone know how to poll out there? Despite every indication that the partisan split among Americans has narrowed considerably since the last Presidential election, won by the Democrat by seven points while garnering considerable independent and Republican cross-over votes, the new Washington Post/ABC poll uses a sample in which Democrats outnumber Republicans by fourteen points. Moreover, the WaPo/ABC poll has progressively widened that gap over the last four monthly polls:
* 11/15/09: 35/21/39 (D/R/I)
* 10/18/09: 33/20/42
* 9/12/09: 32/21/43
* 8/17/09: 35/25/34
Let’s have a reality check here. In the last four months, which party would have lost ~20% of its representation in the polls and had them shift to the independent column? With both Gallup and Rasmussen showing the Democrats losing the generic Congressional ballot for the first time in several years, it’s not the Republicans losing voters. And yet the Post and ABC conduct their public-opinion polls based on samples that not only wildly oversample Democrats but show the opposite trend of partisan identification.
Even while increasing the sample to the point of farce, Barack Obama and Democratic policies lost ground in this poll:
* Approval on health care: 47/49, was 48/48 in October
* Approval on deficit: 42/53, was 45/51 in October
* Approval on the economy: 51/47, was 50/48
* Support ObamaCare: 48/49, was 45/48
* Public option: Up 10 (53/43), was up 17 in October (57/40)
Maybe WaPo/ABC should use a 25-point gap the next time between Democrats and Republicans. That way they can get the results they want on the issues."
Bradford said...
BdP- Rezko financed Obama's house? Ya, right - Obama was a millionaiire from his book deals and Michelle was pulling in 300K a year as a lawyer for U of Chicago. Keep lying though, it reduces your limited credibility further.
Are you seriously telling me that the rich cannot be bribed?
In June 2005, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining parcels in Kenwood. The state's junior senator paid $1.65 million for a Georgian revival mansion, while Rezko paid $625,000 for the adjacent, undeveloped lot. Both closed on their properties on the same day. Last January, aiming to increase the size of his sideyard, Obama paid Rezko $104,500 for a strip of his land. This sale to Obama destroyed the value of Rezco's remaining adjoining property because it could no long be built upon. Rezco's intent could only have been to expand Obama's land at a cut rate cost to Obama.
Outside of Chicago, this is normally known as a buying influence.
This sale to Obama destroyed the value of Rezco's remaining adjoining property because it could no long be built upon.
Actually the entire lot still sold for a net profit. Plus after the larger part sold the new owner immediately starting trying to flip it for much more than that (a huge amount more).
For Bart's information:
The Obama family was at home in Chicago for last Halloween (2008) & Barack Obama escorted at least one (& maybe 2) of his kids to a party down the street watched over by his then security guards. Photos do prove this, along with commentary at the time.
PLEASE don't show your bias by making untrue statements.
Wouldn't "going rogue" perhaps imply a third-party campaign a la Perot or Nader.
How does Obama fair against a Whig strategy of 2 or 3 "coordinated" regional candidates. With the specific aim of trying to get the thing thrown into the House. I'm a Democrat but I'd tend to like the House picking the President more often creating a more Parliamentary kind of system.
By "coordinated", I mean that Romney and Palin don't try to run in Huckabee's South. Huckabee and Romney don't try to run in the North (from Ohio west) and Rockies where Palin might. And Palin and Huckabee don't run in the Mid-Altantic Northeast or on the West Coast including Utah, AZ, NV where Romney might run.
If the Federal Election money is limited on a per candidate, would a multiple coordinated candidates be able in NET to have more Federal money.
written in haste as usual without proofreading.
BdP-
Other than the fact that they bought next to each other, all of your other facts are wrong, as usual.
If the Federal Election money is limited on a per candidate, would a multiple coordinated candidates be able in NET to have more Federal money.
I believe the Fed Elec money is limited per party and there are requirements for getting this funding (or significant levels of funding?). One of the benchmarks is a certain significant percentage of votes in the previous election. Ross Perot was able to achieve that but was on his own for his first time.
So one of them would get the GOP funding and the others would be on their own.
jdk-
Palin lacks the basic organizational skills to run a true third party candidacy, unless the same folks who bankrolled the teaparties did it for her. I think she is much more likely to ruin the republican brand, and more power to her.
Just watch the childish passive agressive attacks she has spewed inside and about the book, most recently at Newsweek, she is a piece of work. Word on the street is she has also done no work on her basic lack of knowledge, thus beyond these softball book interviews she has no shot at a viable candidacy. Heres hoping she runs!
I'm torn. On the one hand, I hope she runs, because that will all but guarantee another 4 years for Obama. On the other hand, CAN'T SHE JUST GO AWAY!?!?!!!
The GOP owes America and the world massive apologies for springing the Wasilla Wack-Job on us and doing nothing to shut her up when she got out of control.
Any person here who believes that Palin has a chance to be president is deluding themselves.
For one thing sooner or later the country will lose interest in Palin the celebrity and Palin the politician is a dolt with no grasp of issues.
I have no doubt that if she wants to run and the GOP is bright enough not to nominate her she will run as a third party and assure Obama a massive landslide.
I realize a lot of Americans aren't to bright but they are rational enough to know we have serious problems that she can't ever get her head around.
I just wish she would go away, she is just a whiner,typical of a person that can't take any responsibility for her actions.
Today's the big day. It's in stores and on-line and we've all been waiting with baited breath. Is it a book, a CD release, President Obama's last day in China?
No, Star Trek comes out on DVD!
Oh and there's some political comedy book out, too.
Frankly I think one of the factors weighing on Sarah Palin is that she knows if she does run for president she will have to spend the next two years actually learning the sort of things she would need to know to be president, and I seriously doubt she wants to commit to that.
Given the choice of cramming intensively for two years (she has an enormous amount of ground to make up) or flitting about on book tours and lucrative speaking gigs, which does it seem more likely she will opt for?
Of course she could out-dumb even herself, and continue to flit around and still run for president in 2012, hoping to shrug off any awkward interview or debate moments as “just more of that gotcha journalism >wink< >wink<”. I don’t put anything past her at this point.
bearp:: You guys can fill in the rest
When George Bush won the primary in 2000 I breathed a sigh of relief thinking that there is no way that Al Gore can lose now. I was sadly mistaken and after having lived through 8 years of that I am not taking anything for granted.
She can fire up her base with "gotcha statements", and you have to be wary of that.
On the other hand, if she ever does become President I am going to have a lot of fun blaming her for everything under the sun.
Was quitting the Alaska governorship -- particularly in the sudden and disorganized way that Palin did it -- a decision characteristic of someone who carefully ponders all the facts and circumstances before jumping to a conclusion?
Yes, it was. If you assume that Palin is someone who is bored with the act of governing and wants to cash in on her new found fame. Not running for Senate is also rational from this point of view.
Palin will be in the public spotlight for at least another 2 years because the political world believe that she might run. This is her chance to maximize her influence on the political debate.
Pat:
To you question from way back about wanting a moderate candidate and not Palin, even if you're a liberal/democrat:
Agreed. When he ran against Gore, GWB didn't really look that different to me than Palin does now. I'd listen to him speak and I just couldn't understand what he was even doing in this race. Then he won the nomination. Then he won the presidency. Twice.
So yeah, I'm all for the Republicans nominating someone intelligent and reasoned, even if I don't agree with their platform. I would much rather have a Romney or a McCain in office than a Palin.
Because you never know how the end-game of a presidential campaign is going to turn out, and voting "none of the above" isn't an option.
(And before some pedant gets all uppity about third-parties - yes, I know you can vote for someone else on the ballot. My "none of the above" means voting to exclude those candidates as well. But, alas, SOMEONE has to win.)
Addendum -
And to the people saying they'd vote for Palin in a primary as well as those who either voted for Clinton to sabotage the Democrats chances or think nothing is wrong with it:
How awful was your civics teacher that you think voting for the person you think is least qualified is doing your civic duty?
Why wouldn't all the liberals on here vote for Mitt Romney or someone else who presents the smallest threat IF elected? I know I'll be voting in the MA primary for whomever takes the a pro-individual liberty stance furthest from social conservatives.
In fact, someone should start a massive campaign to register liberals to vote for Republican candidates. That way they won't have some book banning, big moral government candidate and we can have actual debates on how best to address the economic issues facing our country.
@DCM
Hey DCowardM you need to check your profile. There's a typo. It shows your gender as male. Can't be right, you gotta have balls to be a male.
Gatordad:
There's so much you don't know about zoology.
@Gatordad
Now was that really necessary ? But then this may be a feud that goes back a few posts. Let us all just try to get along now shall we.
Many posters have expressed fear that Palin could get the nomination based on the fact that, incomprehensibly) Dubya actually got the nomination... AND the presidency! TWICE, even.
But in fact that's the one overarching factor that will make her nomination impossible. If there had been no George W. Bush, the electorate might be more accepting of Sarah Palin. After all... folksy charm, good looks, amiability and a dog-whistle appeal to the fundamentalist base are a potent mix.
But the burnt child fears the fire. The country (and especially the GOP) was badly burned by W's presidency. I don't think moderate Republicans are going to be in the mood to turn the reins of power back to the dog-whistle crowd anytime soon. At least not for a few more cycles, anyhow.
"Was quitting the Alaska governorship -- particularly in the sudden and disorganized way that Palin did it -- a decision characteristic of someone who carefully ponders all the facts and circumstances before jumping to a conclusion?"
Yes, it was. If you assume that Palin is someone who is bored with the act of governing and wants to cash in on her new found fame. Not running for Senate is also rational from this point of view.
And that pretty much sums it all up. Sarah Palin is in this only for herself, and not the people of this nation, the state of Alaska, or the town of Wasilla.
The woman is soulless and views the rest of us as a means to an end...hers.
wv: finesse. none of that here to see.
Really DCowardM you and Gramps want to take a shot at me but you don't want me to respond. Why is that? Don't want everyone on here to know you're gutless? Then stay away from comments regarding me. You want to say something about my position on something, fine. You want to come after me personally, not fine. And as I said elsewhere, you ever want to say something to my face, say the word.
To everyone else: sorry about that, but DCM seems to not want to learn his lesson. Maybe this will end that.
***********************************
Pan said...
Gatordad:
There's so much you don't know about zoology
Pan my knowledge doesn't extend to the lower forms of life.
She will run, because she's a megalomaniac with nothing to lose by it. She won't win, but she'll pull 15% and a few delegates up to Super Tuesday. She'll drop out after Super Tuesday and cut a deal with Romney, extracting all sorts of promises from him on culture-war issues in exchange for her endorsement and VP slot. The Romney/Palin ticket makes the most sense because they counter each other's greatest weakness (policy/social bonafides). They'll still lose to Obama.
Daily Report from Happy Freeperville (a brief precis)
1.) Obama has failed the world on climate change issues
2.) Doug Hoffman will announce victory in NY-23 on Thursday morning. If he doesn't it will be:
a.) another stolen election
b.) Newt's fault. (Newt sucks.)
3.) New guidelines restricting frequency of mammograms are a foreshadowing of health care rationing in the final health bill. Libruls will pull the plug on Grammaw by giving her cancer.
4.) Sarah Palin is hot and adorable and we would crawl on hands and knees over broken glass to vote for her in whatsoever election she might choose to contest
I cannot find any info on the Doug Hoffman issue. Any help ?
Dem In Virginia:
Here you go.
Pan said,
And to the people saying they'd vote for Palin in a primary as well as those who either voted for Clinton to sabotage the Democrats chances or think nothing is wrong with it:
How awful was your civics teacher that you think voting for the person you think is least qualified is doing your civic duty?
My original call for Democrats to vote Palin in the Primary spot was half in jest so let me address these points in all seriousness.
1. voting for the least qualified candidate in order to induce a more favourable outcome for your preferred candidate.
In 2008 after John McCain had the Republican primary wrapped up, Rush Limbaugh advocated that Republicans from remaining states who had nothing better to do should go and vote for the least likely to win Democratic candidate. I thought this was a particularly reprehensible and unethical suggestion (no surprise considering the source) and I was rather vocal about demanding that be changed. It turned out not to be a problem and nobody has attempted to address this inequity since.
Some states have rules that prevent this from happening or at the very least implement safeguards, such as waiting periods, to mitigate the influence of elections. Others do not. So is it illegal to change affiliations? No. I suggest if you have issues with it you demand that it be changed otherwise, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
2. Is it ethically right to do this type of end run strategy?
Depends. Personally, I subscribe to a one person, one vote ethic. But let's say you were diametrically opposed to the Republican philosophy of governance to the point that you thought it would send our nation into ruin (all you righties can substitute 'Democratic' since many of you seem to think that's what Obama is doing now). Then you might not have any moral dilemma with the 'win at all cost' strategy. Some of Rush's listeners did just that although many did not. I suspect that they couldn't stomach the idea of Hillary possibly becoming President.
Personally, I don't think Palin has a snowball's chance in Florida of winning under any circumstances. I only offer the party switch suggestion for entertainment value purposes. Well, that and I just wanted the Limbaugh crowd to see how it feels and maybe get some legislation in place to stop this kind of artificial gerrymandering.
Will I actually do it? Probably not. Palin's on a fishing expedition. She'll only throw her hat in the ring if there is enough public demand. She has all the time in the world to keep saying her "that's not my focus right now" non-denials. If the troops don't rally, hey I could probably live off a million dollar book advance in Alaska for several years while running a right wing Northern Exposure radio show.
True Palin has nothing to lose from running, but she also has nothing to gain. Except for the Presidency, but does a woman who couldn't even stand being Governor of a sparsely populated state for more than two years really want that? It is kind of a hard job. The mean ol' media might even want her to field questions at press conferences! Oh horror!
Why put herself through the campaign ringer, when she can sit back and play kingmaker? She's the Queen of the Republicans' kingdom of make-believe. She'll get all kinds of praise and attention by with-holding her endorsement until the last minute. I think it's far more likely for her to run for VP again, where she can avoid scutiny and rally the base.
Was quitting the Alaska governorship -- particularly in the sudden and disorganized way that Palin did it -- a decision characteristic of someone who carefully ponders all the facts and circumstances before jumping to a conclusion?
Palin was chased out of office by a series of frivolous ethics complaints which inflicted nearly a half million dollars in legal fees on her and her family. This is known as lawfare. At the time of her resignation, Palin danced around this fact because she probably did not want to encourage more lawfare in the future. However, now that she is out of government, Palin was upfront about the real reason yesterday on Oprah.
It doesn't matter that Palin doesn't have a realistic shot at the nomination; running for president is a lucrative gig in and of itself. Pat Buchanan ran for president. Jesse Jackson ran for President. George Wallace ran for president for years and years. Running for president will get Palin a generous expense account, TV time, book sales, and the opportunity to be adored. She can even pay herself a salary out of campaign funds.
And it doesn't matter if she doesn't have big money backers. The teabagger mailing list will provide.
Bradford said...
BdP-Other than the fact that they bought next to each other, all of your other facts [concerning the Rezco land deal] are wrong, as usual.
The facts are from the Chicago Sun Times and Obama admitted it was a "mistake" to accept the land from Rezco.
To all those 'hoping Palin will run against Obama in '12 so he can crush her'.......be very careful what you wish for.
Any number of analysts will tell you that unemployment is going to peak at 12% and then stay above 10 for several years.
By 2012, the country is going to be ready for a red-meat, small government, back to basics candidate, someone with solid conservative core values. That won't be Romney or Pawlenty and Huckabee has no chance.
Reagan was widely scoffed at an actor playing cowboy. GWB was a national joke who got elected twice.
A conservative Republican starts with a base of 40%, can't and won't go below that number. Palin would only have to convince 8% of the country and she has huge upside among working class independent and Democrat women.
Much stranger things have happened.
RE: NY-23
Nate addressed this issue some time ago. The probability of a net gain of 3000 votes for Hoffman out of 10,000 absentee ballots is pretty slim. Many of those ballots will likely be Scozzafava votes since absentee ballots are probably from before the date she dropped out.
And no one has actually answered this but, can you actually unconcede?
Yes, Bart... poor Sarah, bedevilled by all those "frivolous lawsuits."
(Coff Orly Taitz coff coff... )
On the other hand were Sarah to become president, she'd have her ery own Department of Law to handle all those pesky things.
Poor, poor Bart. It must be hell to be a fairly bright guy and have to defend this kind of nonsensical twaddle.
I feel for you. I really do.
@Bart
What ? Are you telling me that Sarah Palin is a quitter and has no stomach for a fight ? Is this the first time that a Governor has quit because they are afraid of a legal battle ?
It's probably worth pointing out that, since resigning in July, Palin has spend very little time in Alaska. We like it that way.
"Unless employment takes off by the end of 2011 as it did at the end of 1983, Obama will be a one term President no matter who the GOP runs.
2012 looks like an ideal year to run for President as a small government, pro growth conservative candidate. Cue the Rogue from Alaska."
LMAO!
Obama will CRUSH Whoever runs in 2012 regardless of what the employment level is! Americans vote based on their GUT FEELING of whether the President UNDERSTANDS what's going on in the country EMOTIONALLY and whether he's TRYING TO FIX THINGS (in their opinion).
If they feel the EMPATHY from the man, they like him and if they like him they vote for him. Simple as that.
Republicans can't understand how anybody could like Obama, even if they're disappointed in some things he does, because they always HATED Obama and keep wanting to say "SEE! We told you so!"
Just like we leftists did with George Bush in 2004!
We kept saying "See! Look what an incompetent, idiotic, lying, smug, deceptive bastard he is! Look at how he's just openly duping the American people! Look how everything he touches turns to abject failure! HOW could you even consider voting for such an incompetent bungler?!"
Didn't matter much what liberals thought now did it?
Same thing in 2012. It flat doesn't matter what the right wing thinks. Obama will win. Period.
Obama is proving to people that he's earnest, hard-working and empathetic, an effective statesman abroad and a man who emotionally communicates with the people.
The right hates him as the "Kenyan Socialist"! But the same people who voted for him the first time still like him and will vote for him again.
Palin doesn't even WANT to be President, and ESPECIALLY doesn't want a hopeless quest doomed to flame out like Dole in 1996!
She wants to be a "star"! She wants to jet set around and appear on TV and be a big celebrity without doing any really hard work! Why would she want to face the endless grind of a national political campaign when she can just have another book ghost written and appear on Opra!
Mr U...
One could argue that Al Gore "unconceded" on election night 2000, no?
In fact, that's what the Freepers DO argue. They feel the two events are Exactly The Same.
Never mind that in the interim between concession and unconcession in NY- 23 Owens was sworn in, took his seat, voted on an important bill...
Never mind. Exactly The Same.
Walker said...
After a while, it gets to be a broken record
~~~~~~~~~~
Indeed!
~~~~~~~~~~
At the end of 2007, Reps determined by the polls McCain would have the best chance against either Hillary or Obama, hence, ergo, therefore McCain was the Rep nominee once he won NH and all of the Rep hierarchy came out and endorsed McCain.
Reps fall in line.
One is mystified trying to figure out how Palin will ever have the better chance of beating Obama in 2012, but again the Reps have a very, very weak field, so stranger things have happened.
Re: the Dems in 2008. Remember the super delegate issue/fiasco, as many Dem party elders were convinced Hillary had the better chance of winning the presidency and Obama had no chance of winning FL, OH, PA. But Obama's endgame of winning all the caucus states and Hillary ignoring the caucus states thinking she would wrap up the nomination on Super Tuesday didn't work out ie Obama was the better candidate and campaigner.
National politics really isn't that complicated nowadays as the Rep party is always gonna pick the candidate who they deem has the best chance of winning in Nov. ~ Think big picture!
Mr. Universe -
You cannot unconcede as you really cannot concede. The House has the ability to appoint the "winner", or the person they believe won in this case, but that can be revoked if it later turns out they were wrong. In fact, the state of NY has told the house just that in the NY23 race - even with Hoffman's concession.
Sarah Palin’s polling numbers are irrelevant because she will not run for President, but she will spend the next two years dangling that possibility in front of voters and the media. That’s how she’ll be able to rake in the bucks for giving her Speech (which one of your readers correctly noted she views as her intellectual property – no pun intended – and, thus, why she restricts its dissemination). I suspect that once the book hoopla dies down she’ll be installed as the public face of a “think tank” that will trawl the right-wing seas for more dollars, some of which she’ll sprinkle on conservative candidates next year, but most of which will support a pleasant lifestyle for her and her family. Come mid-2011, she’ll raise her profile again with a new book or some other device to tease the media into speculating whether or not she’ll enter the race for President and more money will pour in. She’ll pull out at the last minute, citing family pressures and media nastiness. Then she’ll be coy about her endorsement for several months, earning her another round of attention (and money). She’ll play the good soldier in the 2012 general election supporting the GOP nominee, and if/when Obama wins a second term, the cycle of publicity will repeat.
For an example of how to play this game, see Gingrich, Newt.
Michael said...
For an example of how to play this game, see Gingrich, Newt.
~~~~~~~~~~
and to a lesser degree, Rudy Guiliani, who raised 50 million and got (1) Rep delegate.
Rudy is making wayyy too much money in the private sector to get involved in politics again. One political humiliation is enough for him.
the McCain campaign threw her into the deep end of the shark tank
Katie Couric, the "great white shark" of the journalistic oceans...
@Mr. Universe
Formal concessions and acceptances have little or no legal bearing, and can be revoked. Generally the loser has a certain amount of time to contest the results after the vote totals are in regardless of whether or not he/she has conceded. And at this point, the total vote is not in (although it's almost--but not quite--impossible for Hoffman to win).
JohnDoe said...
"Palin would only have to convince 8% of the country and she has huge upside among working class independent and Democrat women."
No she has an upside among working-class ultraconservatives. Independents don't like her. Maybe Democrat women like her, but DemocratIC women (as in women who lean toward the Democratic party) mostly despise her.
Jacob is right about the persistent myth that independent and Democratic women would actually vote for Palin:
The Plum LineGreg Sargent's blog (Nov. 16/09)
Sarah Palin Tanking Among Moderates, Independents
This isn’t terribly surprising but it’s noteworthy: Whatever successes Sarah Palin is having among Republicans, she’s absolutely tanking among independents and moderates.
The internals of the new ABC News/Washington Post poll find:
* Only 37% of independents think she’s qualified for the presidency, barely more than a third.
* Only 30% of self-described moderates think she’s qualified, less than a third.
* Only 38% of moderates view her favorably, versus 58% who view her unfavorably.
Meanwhile, the new CNN poll finds that only 29% of independents think she’s qualified.
This points to the deepening isolation of Palin Nation — it’s kind of the polling equivalent of her decision to conduct her book tour almost entirely in the Real America.
It also highlights an interesting conundrum she faces as she seeks to maintain a national profile. Palin and her ghostwriters have successfully resorted to the most harsh and lurid attacks on Obama to break through into the national conversation (the death panels being only the most prominent example). But those same tactics are severly complicating her ability to broaden her appeal, to the degree that she even wants to do this in the first place.
One other suggestive finding: Palin has significantly higher favorability ratings among men (48%) than among women (39%), and only a third of women think she’s qualified to be the first female president.
Bart de Palma writes:
Rezko paid $625,000 for the adjacent, undeveloped lot. Both closed on their properties on the same day. Last January, aiming to increase the size of his sideyard, Obama paid Rezko $104,500 for a strip of his land. This sale to Obama destroyed the value of Rezco's remaining adjoining property because it could no long be built upon. Rezco's intent could only have been to expand Obama's land at a cut rate cost to Obama.
So, Rita Rezko (not her husband, actually), buys the land for 625,000. Obama buys one-sixth of the land for one-sixth of that price (104,500)--higher than the amount named by the independent appraiser hired by the Obamas. Then, in 2007, Rita Rezko, sells the remaining lot for $575,000. Meaning that she realized a total of $679,500 from her original outlay of $625,000 for a neat profit of $54,500.
That's a funny definition of "destroy" you're working with, Bart ol' boy.
Oh, and could you explain to me exactly how Tony Rezko "bought influence" from Obama by selling him land at a price higher than the appraised value?
I've got a clapped out old laptop in my office here and I'll be happy to sell it to you for $500. If you agree, will that mean that you owe me one?
filistro:
I understand your reasoning, but disagree that it's applicable. I would have thought GWB being elected in 2000 would be the biggest impediment to him being elected in 2004. But then he was elected again, with a much bigger margin.
The lesson here - don't ever cast a vote for someone you don't want in the Oval Office, signing/vetoing laws, issuing executive orders, directing the bureaucracy on exactly how to execute laws and appointing Supreme Court justices. You never know either a) who will decide to turn out on election day and how their favor will fall and b) how your favored candidate will bungle his/her own chances or what dirty secrets might come out.
Re: NY-23
the latest recount data from the Watertown Daily Times which is closely monitoring the process:
---------------------------------
In the completed counties, Mr. Hoffman has picked up 47.1 percent of the absentee vote, Mr. Owens has gathered 32.4 percent of the absentee vote and Ms. Scozzafava got 20.5 percent of the absentee vote.
Mr. Hoffman now trails Mr. Owens by 2,957 votes, with 5,930 absentee ballots left to be counted...
With Jefferson County's partial results tossed in, Mr. Owens leads by 2,942 votes with 5,661 ballots left to be counted.
------------------------------------
so the #'s do not add up to a potential Hoffman recount victory
sorry, CONs
ps - certain cold blooded reptilian life forms should just STFU as 'it' continues to embarass all gators & the entire state of FL with his childish anonymous tantrums
DEM_in_Virginia said...
@Bart What ? Are you telling me that Sarah Palin is a quitter and has no stomach for a fight ? Is this the first time that a Governor has quit because they are afraid of a legal battle ?
The target of a lawfare campaign is in a no win situation because the purpose of lawfare is not to win the lawsuits and ethics complaints, but rather run up the target's litigation costs and take up all of the target's time. This is why we need a loser pays attorney's fees and costs system as they have in the UK.
yoink said...
the McCain campaign threw her into the deep end of the shark tank
Katie Couric, the "great white shark" of the journalistic oceans...
====================================
Exactly.
Couric simply asked, "what do you read?" and she couldn't name a SINGLE newspaper, blog, or magazine.
Maybe they don't care about that in Hooterville, but they sure do in swing-suburban districts.
All of the present Pain polling is based on impressions formed on the campaign, post-election appearances (including the resignation period), and, of course, the media snark. The polls being released now are the new baseline.
I suspect the perceptions of her capability will improve from the baseline, particularly as people hear her much more well prepared for interviews and absorb the ideas she presents in her book and in person. Given that she's now free to focus on the national and international picture, we'll probably see a whole lot more depth than early on.
What's most important to her political future is that she has the right politcal instincts and the ability to resonate with voters. If so, the snarkfest will continue, but will fall flat.
yoink said...
Bart de Palma writes: Rezko paid $625,000 for the adjacent, undeveloped lot. Both closed on their properties on the same day. Last January, aiming to increase the size of his sideyard, Obama paid Rezko $104,500 for a strip of his land. This sale to Obama destroyed the value of Rezco's remaining adjoining property because it could no long be built upon. Rezco's intent could only have been to expand Obama's land at a cut rate cost to Obama.
So, Rita Rezko (not her husband, actually), buys the land for 625,000. Obama buys one-sixth of the land for one-sixth of that price (104,500)--higher than the amount named by the independent appraiser hired by the Obamas. Then, in 2007, Rita Rezko, sells the remaining lot for $575,000. Meaning that she realized a total of $679,500 from her original outlay of $625,000 for a neat profit of $54,500.
The Rezcos sold the remaining land to one of their business attorneys. Given that the property remains vacant and un-developable - in short a lousy investment - one wonders how much Rezco paid the attorney to take it off of his hands and create plausible deniability to the President.
What's most important to her political future is that she has the right politcal instincts and the ability to resonate with voters.
Yes, if only we had some experience by which to judge that hypothesis. If, for example (and I'm just throwing this out there at random), she'd been selected as VP candidate by one of the two major US parties. That would have probably allowed us to judge her "political instincts" and whether her persona "resonates with voters."
Too bad we just have to speculate, huh?
Pan... I take your point, but I would argue that the full horror and destructiveness of the GWB presidency hadn't been revealed to the country by 2004. Indeed, they were still looking for the weapons of mass destruction at that point... and his poll numbers were still pretty good.
But it's also true that GWB's two victories wre the result of a masterfully Rovian juggernaut formed by uniting big business interests, social conservatives, moderate conservatives, neoconservative hawks and evangelical Christians.
I can't think of any Republican currently or potentially on the national scene who could recreate that particular alliance, or anything close to it.
And CERTAINLY not Sarah Palin...
@ Bart
So if Sarah becomes President all Iran, Russia, North Korea, China et al have to do is hire a bunch of lawyers ?
Re: NY-23
forgot to paste in a link for anyone wishing to monitor the recount results.
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/section/blogs09
they just updated it again @ 3:11 ET
----------------------------------
With Jefferson County's partial results tossed in, Mr. Owens leads by 2,940 votes with 5,640 ballots left to be counted.
Jenny... I think Palin actually gets kind of a pass on that "What do you read?" question.
Much more telling, IMO (and even more damning) was her response to Couric's other "nasty gotcha question"... "What Supreme Court decisions have you disagreed with apart from Roe v. Wade?"
Palin couldn't name a single one.
Not one Supreme Court decision she's ever disagreed with over the years! Why doesn't that strike chills into the heart of the GOP? In fact, why isn't it game, set and match?
Beats me.
Bart de Palma writes:
The Rezcos sold the remaining land to one of their business attorneys. Given that the property remains vacant and un-developable - in short a lousy investment - one wonders how much Rezco paid the attorney to take it off of his hands and create plausible deniability to the President.
Oh, one "wonders" does one? Gosh, that's pretty damning, isn't it. Hey, I wonder if Bart de Palma is a kiddie-diddler? Oops, sorry about that Bart, it appears that by your own logic there is now a substantive case against you of child molestation. I think you'd better go turn yourself in to the cops.
Hey, I also wonder if Sarah Palin is certifiably insane. I guess she'd better go commit herself, right? I mean, you can't have people roaming this country free if there are people who "wonder" about possible crimes they may or may not have committed, can you?
As for the lot not having been sold since the purchase (and I have no evidence one way or the other about that, but for argument's sake I'll take your word for it) do you think if you tried very, very hard you might be able to think of a reason why property purchased in 2007 might remain unsold since? I know that thinking is very, very difficult, but I promise if you just give it a try, the answer to that terrible, terrible puzzle will eventually occur to you.
If NONE of the Republicans currently or potentially on the national scene can win, especially Sarah Palin, then don't fret about it. I'm with Nate (and I suspect you are too) that she will run and will win the GOP nomination.
DCM in FL:
Thanks for the update Re: NY-23.
WV: ungoode
ABC reports:
The former governor wouldn't directly address the burning question of whether she wants to be the president, but she did not completely close that door either.
"That certainly isn't on my radar screen right now," said Palin. "[But] when you consider some of the ordinary turning into extraordinary events that have happened in my life, I am not one to predict what will happen in a few years."
"My ambition if you will, my desire, is to help our country in whatever role that may be, and I cannot predict what that will be, what doors would be open in the year 2012," she said.
As for whether she will play a major role, Palin replied, "If people will have me, I will."
Is that another wink? You betchya!
Oops; you'd think I'd have learned by now never to take Bart's word for anything.
The guy who bought that vacant lot from Rita Rezko sold it for $675,000 back in March, 2008 (I guess the Rezkos paid someone to buy it off HIM, right Bart?). So he made a tidy profit.
Now the current owners (John and Marjorie Poulos) have put it back on the market for 1.3 million dollars. There is no restriction as to building a house on the 50 x 150ft lot (oh yeah, that's so tiny!! Who could possibly live on a 7500 sq ft lot???).
So Bart. I guess there's really only one step left for you. Somehow you need to find a way for this to aaaaaalll be ACORN's fault.
Oh, and here's a link to the newspaper article from which I derived these facts (not "things I wonder about," but actual facts; you should try them some time).
See, that question regarding the Supreme Court was a trick. See, many Republicans don't recognize the fact that there is a Supreme Court. They don't like it that there's an unelected body that might tell them they can't just do whatever they want to people no matter how many votes they can get. It really eats at them.
They do have the Anti-help Court. Thats the Court where Scalia strikes down every attempt that the government makes to help someone, while permitting every instance where the government tries to hurt, punish, or limit the freedom of someone. Don't worry, it's all very consistent in their minds.
Bart DePalma:
NO ONE admits they are running for President three (3) years beforehand -- not even Obama did -- simply because of the FEC filings required once that announcement is made.
". . . even if one takes seriously polling conducted 2-3 years in advance of an election, Palin is running at the very worst in a solid second or third place, against candidates who themselves may or may not run for the White House. That's hardly an impossible position. What were Chris Dodd's odds of emerging with the Democratic nomination last year, in a field that was likely to include some combination of Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, and Barack Obama? What are Tim Pawlenty's in 2012? (Hint: not very high.) The vast majority of candidates running for a Presidential nomination have done so facing substantially longer odds than Palin. And arguably, being incumbent senators or governors (insert crack about "actual responsibilities"), they've given up a lot more in order to do so. Palin has the means, motive, and opportunity to run for the Presidency in 2012, and I'd be surprised if she fails to do so."
Nate Silver 11/16/09
Hi Charles!
Since I assume this comment was directed to me (and now that we're such good friends :-) I'll respond... and then I'm going hiking in the coulees, because forecasters say this is the last nice day we're going to have out here on the western prairies for quite some time.
No, I don't think she'll run. I think she'll demonstrate an intention to run, raise a bunch of money and then get miffed by something or other and abort the plans, letting everybody know how aggrieved she is and showing that she has the power to take all her supporters with her.
She'll then launch some threat of a third-party challenge, which after a few months will be ended by lather, rinse repeat. (see above.)
Then she'll revel in the opportunity to simultaneously play victim and powerbroker (her two favorite roles, and damn, she's good at them!)
And yes... no Republican can win in 2012. For one thing, nobody on the GOP horizon can unite the fractious factions that GWB did, and his were still not thumping victories. For another thing, Cugel is absolutely right. Obama will still be widely popular at that time, but he will also be getting comfortably familiar to the nation.
He will be unbeatable.
See you later.
What paperwork do you need to file to run for President?
http://www.slate.com/id/2154162/
See you later.
This is flogging a dead horse, I know, but I can't resist.
Hey Bart, interested in some Chicago property? Here's the listing:
$1,300,000
EXQUISITE CORNER LOT (50X150) ON THE MOST EXCLUSIVE BLOCK IN HISTORIC KENWOOD NEIGHBORHOOD. THIS LAND HAS BEEN ZONED R-5 AND WOULD BE IDEAL FOR A LARGE SINGLE FAMILY HOME. CURRENT OWNERS WILL SHARE THEIR PLANS FOR A 10,000SF SINGLE FAMILY HOME!! SURVEY IS AVAILABLE. ACCESS TO PROPERTY GRANTED ONLY WITH PERMISSION.
Taxes: $2,500
See this page if you're interested.
filistro said...
Jenny... I think Palin actually gets kind of a pass on that "What do you read?" question.
==================================
Oh, I couldn't disagree more.
I imagine 99% of American can name their local newspaper.
I mean, Palin couldn't even name ...um, ....um... whatz the name, um... it's on the tip of my.. um. the Wall Street Journal. Phew!! I almost forgot. After all, WSJ is such a tiny publication.
Palin does compare to Nixon in 1968 in that Nixon won w/43.4% of the vote which is still above Palin's ceiling imo. Humphrey got 42.7 and Wallace got 13.5.
Palin would need the stars to align just right, but if she did win the Mayan: Dec. 21, 2012 End of Days prophecy may be true! ;)
The more I think about it and the more she is discussed which is her ultimate endgame, narcissism, the more I think she will not run.
After the Reps so recently nominated one blank slate, Bush, don't see them nominating another anytime soon ...
As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. ~ H.L. Mencken (1920)
Bart DePalma said...
The facts are from the Chicago Sun Times...
... re-imagined by you in your most magical way! Not unlike your creating re-imagining of non-resident aliens as illegal immigrants.
Back on topic: Palin HAS refused to rule out a run in 2012, we can all agree about that, right? No Sherman-esq statement on Oprah. I haven't read the book yet, but I have to assume that would have been reported if it was there. So, how about you detractors rebut NATE SILVER's claims in this thread, rather than tangents not even relevant to whether she will run?
They do have the Anti-help Court. Thats the Court where Scalia strikes down every attempt that the government makes to help someone, while permitting every instance where the government tries to hurt, punish, or limit the freedom of someone.
The other day when I was reading the oral arguments for Bilski v Kappos (boring to anyone not dealing with IP, I know), I was absolutely shocked to read that Scalia appeared to be in favor of reducing the scope of patent protection (and thus protecting the scope of the public domain), which means in effect, Scalia appeared to want to protect the public's interests over that of a certain class of individuals trying to reduce the public's rights.
There's a first time for everything I guess.
Yoink:
Your linked article confirmed everything I posted about the Obama/Rezco land deal apart from the fact that Obama paid less than market value for the mansion. I had forgotten that tidbit.
The fact that Rezco's attorney found a sucker to buy the land hoping to flip it because the President lived next door and ended up being stuck with the property is irrelevant to the initial deal and resale.
who cares about Sarah anymore ?
now that she has been on Oprah it is all about Levi & his Johnson...
[or Ricky Hollywood & his porn as Palin had the audacity to say about her 'son-in-law']
today's Oprah [which is on now] is all PORN - so Palin is old news [yes, that is true]
and Oprah talks about how erotica & porn are now mainstream & even women are coming out of the proverbial closet...
DCM in FL said...
who cares about Sarah anymore ?
Is there a lib political blog that has not posted multiple times recently about the woman who they claim not to fear or even care about?
You folks are just too much.
DCowardM said ps - certain cold blooded reptilian life forms should just STFU as 'it' continues to embarass all gators & the entire state of FL with his childish anonymous tantrums
@DCowardM
Hey DCM you've been punked and shown up for the little scared bitch you are. Nothing you say can change that. So I'm done with you, but remember, if you ever have enough balls to actually face me, let me know.
Until then hasta luega, little bitch.
BTW Christmas is coming. Maybe you could ask Santa for a tiny little set of balls and an ounce of pride.
more Re: NY-23
the old saying all politics is local is true in many regards...
- first, the columnist monitoring the recount for the Watertown Daily news writes his column under that title...
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/section/blogs09
- second these are the lede stories listed as Breaking News on that local papers website today:
TODAY'S BREAKING NEWS
■Ship runs aground on Canadian side of Seaway (3:56 pm, 11/17)
■Buffalo Bills fire coach Dick Jauron (3:35 pm, 11/17)
■SUNY Canton student charged with raping 13-year-old (3:24 pm, 11/17)
■GRAND SLAM IS BACK: Denny's restaurant will reopen in Watertown Sunday (2:04 pm, 11/17)
----------------------------------
Yeah, DENNY's is re-opening !!!
one of their local top stories this afternoon
no mention of Sarah Palin...
she is soooo last year
@ Jacob
I know, I know. I tried to behave, but really?
GatorBait
you are a pathetic punk TROLL
nothing more, you sad sack of puke
so go bite yourself
I have been attempting to remain above your lame flame war - but you persist
U have been pwned - deal with it, u sick little beatch ;-)
If YOU GUYS don't care, then stop posting on this thread ABOUT whether or not Palin will run and win!
While it's not "breaking news" a story about what Palin did to Scozzafava WAS in your little paper this past Sunday:
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20091115/CURR04/311159984
Is the http://www.fivethirtyeight.com server down? I only have access to this comment box from blogger.com.
working fine here
most have probably moved over to the new GOV thread
like I said before, Palin is so yesterday - move along, nothing to see here ;-)
WV - dinsurs [rednecks believe that dinsurs were on Noah's ark as part of divine design]
Bart de Palma writes:
Your linked article confirmed everything I posted about the Obama/Rezco land deal apart from the fact that Obama paid less than market value for the mansion. I had forgotten that tidbit.
The fact that Rezco's attorney found a sucker to buy the land hoping to flip it because the President lived next door and ended up being stuck with the property is irrelevant to the initial deal and resale.
I'm sorry, Bart, but my several linked articles utterly demolish every claim you made about the transaction. Please note that you claimed that the strip of land Rita Rezko sold to Obama "destroyed" the value of the remainder of the property. You claimed that the sole reason, then, she bought the land in the first place was to offer this sweetheart deal to Obama, at enormous cost to herself.
I pointed out that she actually sold the remainder of the property pretty quickly, and you countered that the Rezkos must have paid a crony to take it off their hands. I then showed that in fact the buyer onsold the property quite quickly, and at a profit. I further showed that your entire premise for the notion that the value was "destroyed" (i.e., that the lot was now too small to build on) was false. The lot is now on the market as a desirable property with plans available for building a 10,000 sq ft home.
So what have we got? Obama paid slightly over assessment for a strip of ajoining property. The owner of that lot lost nothing by the deal. Subsequent owners have found the reduced-size lot highly desirable, and in fact its value appears to be increasing.
So now you try a new tack. Obama supposedly underpaying for the property. What you might also have gleaned from reading the articles I linked to, however, is that the Obamas A) worked with an agent independent of the Rezko's agent and B) put in an offer alongside several competing offers. They were the high bid.
You've simply got nothing here Bart and I have immensely enjoyed this chance to demonstrate line by line just what a complete load of BS you're trying to peddle in this thread. Do, please, keep on digging that hole. You're bound to strike paydirt any moment now.
Bart said....
...apart from the fact that Obama paid less than market value for the mansion...
What kind of central-control-enconomy communist are you? :) Market value is what the market will bear. It had been on the market an extended period. Nobody else was willing to pay what the Obama's did. Ergo they did paid fair market value on that date. :)
List price is NOT market value. List price just some seller's offered opinion.
-- -- -- -- --
Charles, you've shown up so the Palin discussion is assumed dead. You suck the sanity out of the room just like that. *shrug*
That's my job. See you at the new thread :)
Charles said...
That's my job.
I don't doubt it.
Doug Hoffman “unconceding”…
All his concession did legally IMO was signal that he was not going to contest the results of the election (i.e. ask for a recount, sue, etc.) so the House, acting on that signal, swore Owens in as the NY-23 representative. Once that happened, Hoffman’s position or what he says or claims becomes a nullity.
The Constitution states that each House of Congress has the ultimate decision as to whom it seats, and since the House of Representatives has already seated Owens, even if there were a recount that showed Hoffman got more votes (extremely doubtful) he would have to sue in court to try and force the House to seat him, but given the wording of the Constitution I doubt any court would even accept the case.
Just my 2¢ though.
The LEGAL deadline to file an election contest has not passed yet, regardless of an informal "concession" or not.
*
Right now, on Sarahpac.com you can purhase an autographed copy of Palin's book for the low, low price of $100.00.
Now THAT'S small town values.
Griffter to the bitter end.
Bart De Pointless…
Since you’re making such a fuss over Rezko, there’s another similar topic I’m sure you’ve got opinions on.
What was the ultimate deal with “Whitewater”? You know, the Arkansas development that the Clintons were part of, that the government investigated for six years? Was there monkey business going on there?
Charles…
The least you can do is keep up with the discussion.
Owens is already seated by the House of Representatives, a privilege the Constitution gives them regardless of how the election turned out.
Hoffman is already out on the ash-heap of history.
Of course, Pragmatus, the Congress can "certify" a foreign-born citizen as President too. That doesn't mean there can't be a legal challenge.
DCM in FL said...
who cares about Sarah anymore ?
now that she has been on Oprah it is all about Levi & his Johnson...
[or Ricky Hollywood & his porn as Palin had the audacity to say about her 'son-in-law']
=======================================
That's another thing - she's very thinned skinned to run a national campaign.
She could have easily took the high road, but no, she couldn't resist and she had to jump into the gutter and roll around with a 19 year old kid. Really, if she can't take the heat from Levi, how's she gonna deal with Huckabee and Romney's attack ads.
Jenny:
As I said, I haven't read the book yet, but reports are that Levi isn't mentioned at all. Are you saying that she SHOULDN'T have answered Oprah's questions about him?!
Charles…
Then it seems to me you should be down at the courthouse filing papers instead of loitering in here.
I don't have legal standing. McCain (just like Hoffman) OTOH does. Next question?
of course she should have answered oprah's questions, charles, but in a positive way.
She degrades herself when she attacks a 19 year old high school drop out.
This only portends poorly: Huckabee and Romney will bait her until she has a Captain Queeq-like meltdown.
Why would McCain (I assume based on the Hoffman comment that you're saying losing candidates are the only ones with standing) be the only one with legal standing? If a foreign born citizen ran un-opposed, won, and was sworn in, no one could challenge? That doesn't sound legally correct to me.
Charles writes:
I don't have legal standing. McCain (just like Hoffman) OTOH does. Next question?
You might want to read the various comprehensive legal demolitions of Taitz and Berg and reconsider this point. Nothing in the detailed analyses of the question of standing in those cases would give any reason to think that McCain would have standing to challenge Obama's election in court.
McCain is, of course, a senator and would be able to initiate articles of impeachment if he thought there was a single shred of evidence to suggest that Obama was not, in fact, born in Hawaii. Given that there is no such shred, however (the Berg and Taitz cases have certainly proven that in great detail, if nothing else) I can see why McCain prefers not to go down in history as a laughing stock.
DCM (more "local" papers where Palin is making news):
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/palins_book_recalls_auburn_vis.html
yoink:
Wrong again. The House of Representatives "initiates" Articles of Impeachment. Nice try though. We'll see who is the laughing stock (Gov. Palin would ALSO have standing if she lost the election, and I doubt she would be worrying whether the D.C. elite would be laughing at her if she filed such a lawsuit ;)
Robert:
That's what some of the dismissed lawsuits are saying.
Jenny:
How much MORE "positive" can you demand than extending "an open invitation" to Thanksgiving dinner?! I would never invite a PORN STAR (relative or not) to Thanksgiving dinner.
If Palin wants to ever be president and is rational, she will run in 2012. Here's why:
Republicans and Democrats base their choices for President very differently. Democrats want change and look for new faces. Republicans want stability and experience and place their candidates on a hiearchy. The candidate at the top of the heiarchy wins.
Which Republican gets to be the top of the heiarchy? Most often, the candidate that got second place in the previous nomination battle (or at least did reasonably well). Thus, Palin's goal would be to get second place in 2012 and become the GOP frontrunner in 2016 when the country is tired of Democratic rule. If she waits until 2016, she'll have to wait for the second place finisher in 2012 to have his shot at the presidency. Most likely, the 2016 nominee wins the presidency, making her to have to wait until 2024 when the country is tired of Republican rule.
esong_98:
That's interesting "logic" but I thought that 15-year old Willow Palin's comment today was much more insightful. She said it would be "cool" if her mom was elected President. Now, either she was coached to give that answer or that's exactly how the family feels about it.
As I said, I think that Nate has Tom beat on their wager. I can't wait for today's post by Nate on the polling re: Palin's run. For instance, what does Nate say about the October 19th Gallup Poll, which had her unfavorability rating spiking to 50% while her favorability falling to 40% (the ONLY national politician who is less popular, according to the poll, is John Edwards, who fathered a child out of wedlock while campaigning with his cancer-stricken wife)? Of course, among faithful Republicans, her approval rating soars! Is there ANY other candidate who has polled such high numbers -- on both sides of the aisle -- THREE YEARS before the election?
You're right Charles.
Palin looks presidential attacking father of her grandson.
That's what suburban swing voters want to see, a quitter who heads a dysfunctional family feud.
LOL!!! Better than Bill "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky!" Clinton.
Charles writes:
Wrong again. The House of Representatives "initiates" Articles of Impeachment. Nice try though.
You're quite right, I do apologize. The fact remains, however, that McCain would have no standing whatsoever in a court of law to seek to remove a sitting President. Congress alone has that power given to it by the President.
It is possible that a court would consider an injunction to prevent someone from running during a campaign. Oh how I do so hope and pray that Palin (or any other Republican) would be stupid enough to try that ploy during a Presidential campaign. The lulz, as they say, would be epic.
Talk about a dysfunctional family:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ivS4N6Dak
"Congress alone has that power given to it by the President" (you mean CONSTITUTION?).
Gah! Oh for a three minute edit window. Of course I meant "by the Constitution" where I wrote "by the President" above.
Blogger Charles said...
"...the Congress can "certify" a foreign-born citizen as President too. That doesn't mean there can't be a legal challenge."
But luckily, foreign-born McCain lost, so we are spared that sort of legal malarky. :0 :0 :0
But as to NY-23, my understanding is that Chucky is actually right. The filing deadline for contesting the result cannot pass until all absentee ballots are counted and recanvassing is completed. Hoffman's concession allowed the House to seat Owens without question, but if the final result indicates that Hoffman won (a remote possibility that is getting less possible by the minute), he would have a good case to force his seating.
In the extremely unlikely event that Dougie gets a credible lead, the House would be unlikely to object to his seating as it would be a PR disaster.
That's what I thought. If the American people were DEFRAUDED and voted for someone not even Constitutionally-eligible, I think there would have to be some alternative legal relief since the DEMOCRATS wouldn't bother impeaching him. Don't worry, yoink, his time will come.
Jacob:
I'm always "right" (just ask Jenny and yoink ;)
Charles writes:
Don't worry, yoink, his time will come.
Well, following the legal misadventures of Taitz and Berg has been simply hilarious (although I have to say that Taitz is so obviously certifiably insane that I've ended up feeling rather sorry for her), so if you're promising more birther legaltainment all I can say is: bring it on.
Given that Obama has already produced a legal birth certificate and had its authenticity confirmed by every relevant Hawaiian state authority, it's hard to know what anyone thinks the endgame of any legal process could be other than "hey, you dopes, learn to read!" But I eagerly await the next shipment of fail.
yoink said...
"You're quite right, I do apologize."
November 17, 2009 6:13 PM
But I eagerly await the next shipment of fail.
Palin will inform us that Hawaii isn't part of the "Real America", and those birthers who are Paliners will arrive in court the next day with this new evidence.
No, Robert (although I've heard the opposite argument against Palin: "Alaska is not a part of 'Real America'" forgetting that she was born in Idaho). Isn't it time that we settle the issue once and for all? Why won't the Congress allow this legislation to be voted on?
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR01503:@@@P
Charles:
I think the odds are that Palin runs. She probably sees herself as the Margaret Thatcher of the United States, and is heartened that an actor such as Ronald Reagan won the presidency.
My guess is that Palin's chance of becoming president is quite low. Although Reagan was also somewhat out of the mainstream in the 1970s, he was thought of as a nice cowboy; always the good guy. Palin is an angry populist and is probably more similar to what Pat Robertson was to the GOP in 1988. However, because Palin is a former governor she will probably be a somewhat more formidable candidate than Robertson. The GOP nominee in 2012 is almost certainly going to be Huckabee or Romney (probably Huckabee but Romney will be a potent force if health care reform fails). Who gets second place will be interesting because that person is the odds on favorite to become are next president.
SECTION 1. FINDING.
Congress finds that under section 5 of article II of the Constitution of the United States, in order to be eligible to serve as President, an individual must be a natural born citizen of the United States who has attained the age of 35 years and has been a resident within the United States for at least 14 years.
SEC. 2. REQUIRING PRINCIPAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEES OF PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES TO PROVIDE DOCUMENTATION OF CANDIDATE'S ELIGIBILITY TO SERVE AS PRESIDENT.
(a) In General- Section 303(b) of the Federal Election Campaign Act (2 U.S.C. 433(b)) is amended--
(1) by striking `and' at the end of paragraph (5);
(2) by striking the period at the end of paragraph (6) and inserting `; and'; and
(3) by adding at the end the following new paragraph:
`(7) in the case of a principal campaign committee of a candidate for election to the office of President, a copy of the candidate's birth certificate, together with such other documentation as may be necessary to establish that the candidate meets the qualifications for eligibility to the Office of President under section 5 of article II of the Constitution.'.
(b) Effective Date- The amendment made by subsection (a) shall apply with respect to the election for the office of President held in 2012 and each succeeding election for the office of President.
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