A Gallup poll released yesterday showed the Republicans with a 4-point lead on the House generic ballot -- a reversal from October, when the Democrats had maintained a 2-point lead. Making matters worse for Democrats, this was a poll of registered voters -- not the likely voter samples that have generally contained worse news for them because of the apparent Republican edge in enthusiasm.
So -- is it time for Democrats to push the panic button? Or is this poll some kind of outlier?
Probably a little of both. There's no obvious flaw in the Gallup poll -- the question wording is as standard as it gets, the sample size is decent (894 people), and Gallup is a classy and reliable pollster. Scenarios in which Democrats lose a large number of seats in the House are fairly likely, and scenarios in which they lose their majority are quite possible.
Still, I find it unlikely that there's been quite as substantial a shift as Gallup suggests. Rasmussen also shows significant problems for the Democrats, giving the Republicans a 6-point lead in their generic ballot using their likely voter model. That's somewhat worse than the Republican leads of 1 to 5 points that they had shown since Labor Day, although Rasmussen has generally painted a pessimistic case for the Democrats, with Team Red polling as high as +7 on two occasions in August.
Pew, on the other hand, shows the Democrats at a +5 -- actually a little better than the +1 they polled in their last generic ballot test in late August. And YouGov has the Dems at a +9 -- showing essentially no trend for the past several months -- although as an Internet-based poll and one that samples all adults rather than registered or likely voters, I'm not sure how seriously that data point should be taken.
Meanwhile, there's been no obvious trend in Presidential approval -- Barack Obama's numbers have been essentially unchanged for three months now. On the other hand, some of the latest Senate numbers have not been kind to the Democrats, with Quinnipiac bringing a double-dose of bad news in Ohio and Connecticut today.
Gallup's poll was also conducted entirely after the elections of last Tuesday, which none of the other polls were. But that can cut both ways. On the one hand, the poll is the most recent; on the other, the elections were generally regarded as a 'win' for the Republicans, giving them a couple of days of favorable news coverage, and it's not atypical to see a (temporary, usually) bounce in a party or candidate's numbers if polling is conducted during such a period.
My 30,000-foot view is that between the pressures of the jobs situation and the health care debate, the Democrats are in fairly bad shape. But, there's a long way to go before next year, and their situation does not seem to be quite as bad as it was in August.
Certainly, if I were the Democrats, I'd be adopting a fairly defensive posture, putting money into defending seats -- especially those held by non-Blue Dog incumbents -- rather than getting cute and trying to pick off more than a handful of potentially vulnerable Republican seats. I'd also be thinking about policies -- like a jobs package and financial regulation -- that tap a little bit into the populist spirit and might result in somewhat awkward Republican positioning.
So, should the Democrats be panicking? Yeah, maybe a little. But the fundamentals -- particularly the poor labor situation and the Republican enthusiasm advantage -- should be the reasons for their concern, rather than the results of any one particular poll.
11.12.2009
Time for Dems to Panic?
by Nate Silver @ 6:16 PM...see also 2010, generic ballot
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232 comments
Generic ballots mean just about nothing, the faces matter to the voters.
No, but thanx for asking ...
Please, Dems, don't do anything differently. Keep going just the way you are!
This new trend may change if the economy improves and a solid health care bill passes, among other things.
Bradford said...
Generic ballots mean just about nothing, the faces matter to the voters.
~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, again for the umpteenth time, all politics are local where incumbency, money, name recognition, as a rule, trump everything else.
Actual candidates have to campaign against each other by staging a campaign, what a concept!
If this was late Oct. 2010 and the generics didn't look good for Dems, then, by all means, panic ... if one lives or dies w/American politics ie most Americans don't!
carry on
Thanks for this. The fact that HCR debate is hurting dems points up the success of GOP disinformation efforts. Dems are addressing health care; GOP never did. Therefore, if you want reform, you should support dems. Right? Right?
I'm going to take a contrary view on healthcare.
If Congress drops healthcare reform, and concentrates on jobs and bank regulation, the Dems will be better off.
I'm wondering, though, that it may be too late for a jobs bill to have enough impact over the next year, and maybe deep down Obama prefers a GOP Congress. Then Obama makes a deal on the deficit and wins reelection. He doesn't have to worry about the Democratic leaders in Congress anymore.
Clinton was a better president after 1994.
Thank you, Nate, for at least admitting that there are scenarios where it is "quite possible" for Democrats to lose their majority.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
mikelow1885:
I know that the Democrats will NEVER do that, but assuming they did, I would agree it would help them with independent voters. What would it do to their base, though, after wasting all this time claiming that Obamacare was THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT thing in the universe?
A year is a long time, these generic polls have a memory of no more than a few weeks.
Charles said:
"Thank you, Nate, for at least admitting that there are scenarios where it is "quite possible" for Democrats to lose their majority.
There are none so blind as those who will not see."
That's funny, because it seems like you are only thankful for stories that appear to be bad news for the Democrats.
mikelow said:
"If Congress drops healthcare reform, and concentrates on jobs and bank regulation, the Dems will be better off.
"
I don't think dropping the health care reform bill would help at all. Then it really would be like '94. If you're a Dem, and you want things to be different from then, pass the bill! Be confident that people will be happy with the reforms once they're implemented, and when they are, you'll be better off. That said, the jobs numbers will (I think) be the deciding factor. If they don't improve, then the Democrats will probably lose a lot of seats no matter what happens.
"Then Obama makes a deal on the deficit and wins reelection. He doesn't have to worry about the Democratic leaders in Congress anymore."
Well, since it's virtually impossible for the Dems to lose the Senate next year, what I think you would see in a situation where they lose the House is complete gridlock, and nothing getting done.
What would be best for the base are jobs and no more troops for Afghanistan--which would help with independents.
The Pew numbers are fascinating. They are simultaneously claiming a D+6 congressional generic along with heavy opposition to Dem programs like Obamacare and the largest spike in anti-incumbent sentiment since 1994. Nearly every Pew finding apart from the congressional generic should scare the hell out of Blue Dog Dems in Red and Purple districts.
The 2:1 shift in Indis to the GOP in NJ and VA does not appear to be isolated to those states or even the South as has been suggested. These are the folks who used to self identify GOP and still self identify conservative.
I don't see how pouring money into the roughly 70 endangered Blue Dog districts is going to help. The GOP can match or beat it. The Dems have been hunting the very businesses whose donations made Obama the mort prolific fundraiser in history. That money has now shifted to the GOP. As for the businesses who have thus far escaped from the Dem endangered business list and simply want to back the winners to maintain influence, these folks can read polls.
The Blue Dogs are really in a no win position in the middle of a Dem/Indi civil war. In order to repeat their narrow wins in Red and Purple districts, they need all the Dems and most of the center-right Indis. If they continue to support or even be associated with incredibly unpopular measures like Obamacare, they lose the center-right Indis as happened in VA and to a lesser extent in NJ. However, if they vote against Obamacare, the moveon.org left wing of the Democrat Party is going after them.
Unless someone can show me how that Dem/Indi divide gets bridged, 2010 is looking more and more like a 1994 level wave election.
NOTE: In response, please do not cite to anything but polling of voters concerning the actual bills before Congress. Polling of adults who will not vote asking about imaginary health care that costs nothing is not worth the wasted bandwidth.
If some form of health care package passes in the next few months it will be perceived as a "win" for the Dems and their stock will rise.
Additionally, we need to look at NY-23 as an example of what will happen in some of these competitive seats that people are worried about. Candidate quality matters and if the GOP pulls in mostly Tea Baggers to run in these races, that's going to cost them big.
The Democrats aren't in a very good position, but the conditions are not yet in place for a real game-changing election. For that to happen, we would need to see a popular Republican program (like the "Contract with America" in 1994).
And that isn't very likely to happen. I'd cap Republican gains at about 30 seats, even if the Democrats go into the election down in the generic ballot polls. The only way Republicans can do better than that is if we see all-time record low turnout.
The DFL will proceed with 1) health care 2) cap and trade 3) education reform as per BHO's campaign. It's the only option and at least 2/3 of these reforms will be done by Nov 2010 or the DFL deserves to lose for failing. Of course, the GOP already failed. Who does that leave? Not much for the binary brains of my fellow Americans.
The majority of the country wants these reforms no matter how bloody the process will be. The GOP platform is clear; it can be summarized by the total absence of any plan to deal with any issue except abortions, fag hating, and tax cuts. They should be completely ignored until they regain power. Ignored as in decades of failed policy.
Bart DePalma said...
The Pew numbers are fascinating. They are stating a D+6
..........
Indeed!
NOTE: BDP, please keep on spinning as we wouldn't have it any other way ...
take care
p.s. you don't make up the rules for 538 discussion so STFU re: 538 debate!
and here is the good news for dems, and bad for repubs:
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php
Dems, if you were smart and there are a lot of smart Dems, I would suggest these simple steps:
- immediate, bi-partisan health care bill addressing the low-hanging fruit (portability, across border policies) but no public option. You will win with a sensible, moderate, affordable bill, even with a lot of nutter Lefto defections. Take this issue off the table. It's killing Obama.
- kill Cap and Trade forever. Never has there ever been a bigger job killer proposed. it deserves to die.
- announce the scraping of the 1st stimulus package. announce that less than 18% of it has been spent but that "given the unprecented nature of our crises...blah, blah, blah" that "since learned that what we enacted wasn't working". Obama will get credit for frankness and this will allow him to propose something THAT ACTUALLY ADDRESSES THE PROBLEM.
- win big Lefty points by striking DADT immediately. Americans will come to his defense on this in surprising numbers.
Hedge to the center, Obama. This is not bad politics.
shiloh:
Since you don't make up the rules for 538 discussion, either, you can't make anyone STFU.
Missy @ It's Almost Naptime said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Thanx for the advice Missy, as always, we'll take it under advisement! ;)
btw, is Walker still fascinated by the thrilla from Wasilla and following palin's book tour w/baited breathe.
just wonderin'
take care
Missy:
I agree that we should get rid of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and proceed straight (no pun intended) to court martial. As I told mikelow1885, the Democrats will NEVER take any of your other suggestions for getting themselves out of the hole they've dug.
They shouldn't be panicking but they should be in a huddle creating a serious game plan to rally Democrats around social issues. Use Republican tactics.
1. Tell people if Republicans are elected 12 year olds will be forced to have babies.
2. Tell people if Republicans are elected they'll ban interracial marriages just like they've banned Gay marriages.
3. Continue pushing Republicans as the party of No, No Plan, No Thanks.
4. Push the idea that Republicans bailed out the banks under Bush and the Democrats bailed out Main Street.
5. Tell people that under the President plan their 401ks have increased by 23%.
6. Give unions the key to the White House by pushing Card Check HARD.
I could go on and on but I'm not getting paid and my electricity is on.
I'm wondering what the results are if you throw an "Independent" candidate into the mix. I'd imagine we're going to see plenty of third party candidates entering these races.
Shiloh, regarding my budding excitement around the monumental publishing what can only be described as a "searing tome for the time" by one Gov. Sarah Palin, I can only make this comment:
As the official scheduler for my book club, I have added GOING ROGUE between CITIES ON THE PLAIN and DOG OF THE SOUTH.
Alright, show of hands!
How many of ya'll are FLIPPIN' STOKED that the Republican are ascending once again???
I count BDP, Charles, Missy, Walker...ah, who else?? Reverend Kent...
Republicans come back, always. Why? The US is a center-right nation and Democrats are better at running for office than governing. You know its true.
AMEN!
Missy @ It's Almost Naptime said...
Shiloh, regarding my budding excitement around the monumental publishing what can only be described as a "searing tome for the time" by one Gov. Sarah Palin, I can only make this comment:
As the official scheduler for my book club, I have added GOING ROGUE between CITIES ON THE PLAIN and DOG OF THE SOUTH.
~~~~~~~~~~
Touché lol as surprisingly, I have nothing else to add ...
take care
Another nice Analysis by Nate, and good to see the fairly non-partisan viewing of it.
Again, it's fairly important to remember that it's not necessarily Blue Dogs who are at risk the most. They'll go to their voters and say "See, I voted against this, and this, doing what you wanted." Many have been in Congress through the 2000, 2002, 2004 Bush years.
Rather, it's the recent Democratic pickups (2006, 2008) in marginal districts who AREN'T Blue Dogs, who are at biggest risk. The ones who did vote for HCR and Cap'n'Trade. The ones the GOP Opponent can point to and yell "Liberal Democrat!"
@ Missy,
What you say makes sense and simultaneously will never fly. The Democratic special interests would go nuts. The Liberal Leftists are the "Volenteering" force, and the special interests are the donating cash cows. Centrists Moderates may get more votes....but not more donations and not more volenteers
Hey Knights of the Free Republic,
You know what will be extra delicious to see in mid-term 2010 elections?
The utter annihilation of Gov. Deval Patrick, a.k.a. Barack Obama 1.0, by whoever Republican stands against him.
This guy so sucks beyond measure that he's even going to lose in uber-Blue Mass. A nice foreshading of what is going to happen to Obams 2.0 in 2012.
Axelrod finds nice, charming, nonthreatening poli-racial candidates who are masterful stump speakers with appealing biographies and makes them chief executives.
Unfortunately they also have the executive leadership skills of wet noodles and quickly fold like origami as soon as the confetti is brushed away from the stage and the teleprompter is wheeled out of sight.
You know its true. That's why it hurts.
Matt, a major difference between 94 and 10 is that dems had control of the House for...40 years and Gingrich was on a multi-year campaign to take it over -- including a successful assault on a Speaker. Not saying this could be a game-changer election as well, but the conditions in 94 really were unique.
Walker said...
I count BDP, Charles, Missy, Walker...ah, who else?? Reverend Kent...
..........
Charles sidekick Jeff 3996 et al
Kumbaya! ;)
Voters in all modern democracies are swinging more than thirty years ago. This is an offensive word in America but Class anchored voting intentions in Western Europe. Clearly, "class" has never been such a factor in America, as a classless society. America has led the world in personality and PR politics. Therefore, as an historical class driven society and driven more by PR and other ephemereal factors you should expect your politics to swing more? Nevertheless, I still believe that if Barack does what he believes is right the elections will come right. In this respespect, I agree with the Republicans, Barack IS like a European in that he is driven by what is right for America, not what gets the best shortterm poll ratings. I hope Americans understand that they have elected their greatest president since F.D.R.. I listened to his Veterans Day speech, America has chosen brilliantly well!
Thank God you can't vote for him, nicholasjalcock. We don't need more uninformed and misguided citizens.
Missy-
It is well past your naptime.
I work in an industry where I get many opportunities to interact with Europeans, some Brits, Germans, Dutchmen, a smattering of French.
I love to say gentle anti-Obama comments in their presence and witness their sweet, open faces erupt in tortured knots of utter bafflement.
It's like they are thinking, "Somehow this man standing before me isn't in love with Obama... How can that possibly be? Don't these Americans know that they elected the Promise Himself?"
NU'69, I believe you are right. Obama can justifiably claim a great victory with a bill that has broad support.
Why drag controversy-laded monstrosity this out endlessly with no end in sight?
It's just depleting valuable political capital.
Pass something and move on to a real jobs bill.
@Pat
Rather, it's the recent Democratic pickups (2006, 2008) in marginal districts who AREN'T Blue Dogs, who are at biggest risk.
Any names that come to mind for you?
Rookies not having been battle tested running from in office I can see as being vulnerable, just from experience and also because they have a partially unknown amount campaigning capability. A lot is made of incumbancy advantage but it makes more than a little sense that the "advantage" is actually more just the reverse that they are inherently more likely to be competent for the job as a lot of those that aren't suited for the job are weeded out as past losers.
I know there exist "Blue Dogs" that are 7 or 8 termers that rode through even '94. Those aren't likely to be in that bad of way because of the money advantage from incumbancy, plus they are likely flat out adept politicians. Whether they have voted for HCR or not.
Having voted for TARP could be an issue for some, doubly so depending on the economy's state, although some seriously stringent rules for Wall Street being implemented by next spring could mitigate that among a lot of people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/12/owenshoffman-race-tighten_n_355696.html
ALBANY, N.Y. — The special election last week for the 23rd Congressional District seat in New York may not be over after all.
Though Conservative candidate Doug Hoffman conceded and Democrat Bill Owens was sworn into Congress last week, the routine recanvassing of votes shows Owens' lead has narrowed to 3,026 votes, with about 5,800 absentee ballots received so far that have yet to be counted. The final outcome rests on uncounted absentee ballots, and more than 10,000 were sent out.
The county Boards of Election are still recanvassing votes and it could be the end of November before a final count is certified. If the count overturns the election, Owens could be removed from office.
@NU'69
There are loads of things that can be done without getting anyone mad....Repeal the antitrust exemption.
Come on now, 10th Ammendment folks would EXPLODE. :)
Not to mention the insurance industry would take it up another notch or three against that.
BTW NU'69 you didn't notice back a few weeks ago that Obama used that very thing as a threat?
NU'69
Again, it makes sense, and simultaneously isn't doable.
Maybe if they'd started there, they could've done it.
But now, it would look like a retreat, and the liberal-Special interest base would be up in arms. They'd pull funding, lobby against any who proposed it, ect, ect...
Look at what happened when just the the idea of the public option being withdrawn was put forward. There was a near riot.
A nice analysis was done a while ago. While the majority of Democrats aren't from the uber-liberal urban meccas, those actually WRITING the bill... The heads of the House and Committee chairs are from some of the most liberal areas of the country. Pelosi from SF, Barney Frank from Mass, Rangel from the Bronx, Waxman from Beverly Hills...
If the actual WRITERS of the bill tried something more moderate...they'd get severe primary challenges in their very liberal districts
Dear Charles,
I am misinformed etc.
Well, I majored in American History at Oxford University and I took a First. Incidentally, my late Uncle Jim drove a Sherman tank in The Western Desert and he said to me,"It was America that saved us". Can I proffer you this piece of advice? Advice, however badly taken, from your life long friends counts a million times more than flattery from your enemies!
@Walker
Might it be instead that they are worried you are a ticking nutbomb and they are in fact checking for exits while trying to asses whether or not you are going to explode while trying to watch what they say least they set you off? ;)
Gatordad said...
The county Boards of Election are still recanvassing votes and it could be the end of November before a final count is certified. If the count overturns the election, Owens could be removed from office.
~~~~~~~~~~
This has been discussed in previous threads and is a moot topic as Owens is the winner!
But Gatordad, Reps like yourself, are free to keep hope alive re: NY-23.
take care
Dwight, this time you are not DeWrong.
It is true I command an intimidating figure. Broad-shouldered, 6', 220 pounds of chiseled, stone-hard muscle, a racking cap sitting just so atop my head above a Van Dyke beard.
The antique French rapier and Belgian blunderbuss I carry on my side also elicit startled looks as I bound from place to place.
Walker Dollahon has been on pins and needles since 2:36PM, Tuesday, March 13th, 2003, the moment he first heard the rumor, as yet unsubstantiated, that Huey Lewis and the News would be releasing a new album sometime before the conclusion of 2014!!
"As I told mikelow1885, the Democrats will NEVER take any of your other suggestions for getting themselves out of the hole they've dug."
Nor should they, because all those other suggestions amount to saying "do everything the Republicans want".
Nate asked…
“Time for Dems to panic?”
Answer: NO
It is however time for the likes of Charles and Bart De Palma and Fifi to wet their panties.
ashwata:: What runs down the street after the firemen put out the fire in your house.
@Walker
It doesn't matter about size, you never want to set any of them off. Best case is you'll spend the next two evenings buffing their teethmarks out of your boot toes. ;) Outcomes go downhill from there.
P.S. Your job is Assistant Head Carnie at the Ren Fair on 1477?
@Dwight
A Quick analysis of the Cook Political Report, and 538's own report, with the Candidate Wikis reveal these three names in particular.
Perriello in VA,
Markey in CO,
Teague in NM,
All 3 picked up seats in 2008, from the GOP. All three voted for Cap'N'Trade, With Perriello ALSO voting for HCR. And all three in districts where the PVI index is R+5 or higher.
Gatordad:
"Though Conservative candidate Doug Hoffman conceded and Democrat Bill Owens was sworn into Congress last week, the routine recanvassing of votes shows Owens' lead has narrowed to 3,026 votes, with about 5,800 absentee ballots received so far that have yet to be counted. The final outcome rests on uncounted absentee ballots, and more than 10,000 were sent out.
"
The 10,000 number means nothing, because as that article notes, 5800 is the number that was returned and not yet counted. To overcome a 3,026 vote deficit, Hoffman would have to win those by a margin of about 4,400 to 1400, which is extremely unlikely. Also, even if the count at some point appeared to show Hoffman ahead, it's not as simple as saying "oops, well you're out now Owens, and Hoffman is in."
Is CnT really that big an issue in VA? I'm curious how the breakdown runs.
Although no matter what he voted for he definitely could be in for a rough time in that district if there isn't something resembling Obama's ground machine's coattails in 2010.
@shiloh
'But Gatordad, Reps like yourself, are free to keep hope alive re: NY-23.'
Libertarian not Republican. I don't really care about this election, just hadn't seen this myself. Didn't know about the other thread.
And Shiloh I'm disappointed in you. Are you really so narrowminded or stupid that you feel that anyone who posts or says anything that is negative about any Democratic issue is by default a Republican? Surely your not that foolish? Or have you just drank the cool-aid? Just so I'm on record here I am:
pro choice
pro gay marriage rights
think DADT should be ditched
for HC reform but against this piece of shit bill
I like Bill O'Reilly... and Rachel Maddow. Can't stand Glenn Beck... or Keith Olbermann.
Have voted 3-3 Rep-Dem in the last 6 prez elections.
I don't like either party. The Republicans want to put their noses in my bedroom, the Democrats want to put their fingers in my wallet. They can both FOAD as far as I'm concerned. Shiloh, you have the capacity for cleverness, I've seen it. You should use it more.
Yes, Owens has already been sworn in and as we saw w/Franken~Coleman (1) party can hold up final election results for an eternity, if they choose to do so.
So Oops indeed as Owens already voted for HRC and the next NY-23 election is less than a year away, and don't believe the party of No! wants to waste any more money on their NY-23 embarrassment!
Gatordad said...
Libertarian not Republican.
~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, we've already discussed this previously as well as after (8) years of cheney/bush many Reps don't want to admit to being Reps anymore and I fully understand.
btw, judging by 538, a libertarian running for pres in 2012 has a fairly decent chance of being elected. ;)
take care
p.s. if one truly is Libertarian, why did you vote for either a Dem or a Rep in any election?
hmm
I have read these and many other comments during the last presidential election. Americans ability to tear themselves apart is somewhat scary! Shouldn't you be trying to find common ground and move forward?
Dwight,
I'd go as far to say as it's near certain Perriello's done.
Virginia's 5th district, the "Heart of Dixie", he won by a bare 727 votes, 50.1% to 49.9%.
In fact, McCain actually WON the district.
Perriello won off the coattails of Obama AND Warner leading the ticket, and dissatisfaction with the economy (He trailed his opponent by 32% only 3 months before the election..AKA before Lehman Bros.)
One major differnce (at least so far) between 1994 and 2010 is the far fewer number of open seat possible pickups for the Republicans. In 1994 the Rep's flipped a net 20 open seats from Blue to Red. So far this cycle there are only 7 Democratic open seats and only 3 of those look like pickup oppertunities (La-06, Penn-07, NH-02). The other 4 Dem open seats are in solid Blue Districts.
The Dems actually have better open seat pickup oppertunities (Del-AL, IL-10, Pen-06) than do the Republicans.
To win control of the House the Republicans will probably have to beat 41+ Dem incumbants. In the wave election of 1994 they only beat 34 incumbants.
Missy it’s past your Naptime…
I hope someone in your book club can read, because you seem to be having some trouble. If you are recommending “Cities on the Plain” you’re going to be looking high and low in vain for copies. You’ll have better luck with “Cities of the Plain”, but don’t take my word for it.
Or maybe you guys just buy books so your bookcases will give the illusion that there’s an intillexshul in the house?
I’m afraid I have to take your hubby to task too. He has bragged here that he is a screenwriter, but today tells us “I work in an industry where I get many opportunities to interact with Europeans, some Brits, Germans, Dutchmen, a smattering of French.”
???
I can understand this if he is a screenwriter in Hollywood working at one of the studios (a very rare animal actually), but in Houston? How many European filmmakers bother to even think about Houston, except to hurry through the airport there to change planes on their way to someplace interesting?
By the way Walker, how’s that wonderful glow working out you said you were enjoying as Doug Hoffman won so big up in NY-23? Or did you have to settle for the glow of drinking yourself into another stupor of disappointment?
:o) :o) :o)
[corrected]
actually this evening the Watertown Daily News has Owens lead growing again to + 3,176
in their article tonight they say that the other paper used outdated #'s
and their estimate of uncounted absentees is "at least 5,400"
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20091112/BLOGS09/911129996/BLOGS09
let's say that eventually some late arrivng military ballots trickle in over the weekend [unlikely since they had to be postmarked no later than 11/2]
even if there were to exist 6,000 uncounted absentee ballots remaining...
Dede was still a viable candidate when most if not all were postmarked
Hoff must make up a 3200 vote deficit out of a limited universe of about 6000 +/- valid absentee votes returned including Dede
early poling suggested that the votes would split roughly 1/3 each
but even if Hoffman took 2/3 of the absentees [extremely unlikely], that would only be 4,000 vs 1000 Owens + 1000 Scozz [assigned estimates]
even in that bizarre scenario Hoffman still loses - but might be close enough for a recount
I predict the margin will remain at about + 3000 Owens when all is said & done
nothing to see there... let's move along
GatorDad, it's not use. Democrats hate Libertarians as much as Republicans because Libertarians have not bought into the creepy, messianic fixation on Obama. Stay the course, though, and nevermind. Their numbers day to day under the pressing weight of their idol's many manifest failures...
So as to not waste a vote on a candidate that has no chance. I am practical and pramatic.
FYI voted for Bush in 2000. Voted for Kerry in '04. Didn't think Bush had earned another term. Voted McCain in '08 because I didn't know who Obama was, had no track record to judge the man on and couldn't vote for someone for pres. that I didn't have a handle on. And in hindsight I'm glad I didn't vote for Obama. I think he's a disaster.
But I bet you vote straight party line don't ya'? Or do you have enough integrity and intellectual honesty to admit when 'your guy' isn't living up to expectations and do something about it? When was the last time you crossed party lines, sport?
Shiloh,
If you're a libertarian...
The best way to keep anything from being done in government to infringe more of your rights, is to keep a divided government.
Right now, that means voting republican (And blue dog)
Pragmatus, keep digging...I do other things too...
nicholasjalcock said...
I have read these and many other comments during the last presidential election. Americans ability to tear themselves apart is somewhat scary! Shouldn't you be trying to find common ground and move forward?
~~~~~~~~~~
Currently, Dems/Reps hate/despise each other after many years of scorched earth campaigning by Ailes/Atwater/Rove.
And gasp, this tactic didn't work in 2008 and adding fule to the fire, an African/America family is living in the White House in a country where many of its citizens are still fighting the Civil War.
Republicans, like Capt. Kirk in Star Trek II, don't like to lose and are very, very sore losers and have a very hard time rationalizing a defeat of any kind, let alone to a minority candidate.
Oh the humanity as everything the party of No! does nowadays is trying to move poll #s rather than trying to help the country move forward.
One just has to look at Rep politicians faces to see the anger and hatred. Boehner is a ticking time bomb ...
Pat said...
Dwight,
I'd go as far to say as it's near certain Perriello's done.
Likely. There is even a VA State Senator that is going to be running against him (or that at least is running for the GOP nomination).
But, while McCain did carry it, it was by a lot less than the +12ish that Bush did. So Perriello was in a pickle anyway, he might as well vote for what he could stand for next election. As we saw on Nov. 3 running away from Obama isn't likely to win you anything downstate anyway, just piss off the people that did show up in 2008 for Obama/Warner.
@BDP:
I refuse to cite a poll that focuses on the actual content of a bill in Congress because such a poll is fantastically irrelevant. Death panels were in no way, shape or form in the bills, but that didn't stop idiots from being afraid of them. As a more general point, the actual work of Congress is so complex that voters have no chance of comprehending the actual substance; not because they are stupid, but because there's just too much for people to get through and make sense of while they hold down a job, play with the kids, etc.
The information source people use to find out about the bills is flawed as well. Faux News mixes in so much conservative commentary that there's no time for an in-depth story on the actual content; MSNBC is too busy talking about who wins or loses; and CNN is saying "Look! Shiny graphics! Twitter! Facebook!" The newspapers USED to do it, but they just fired half their staff, and can barely keep up with publishing daily updates on meaningless polls.
So, what the public thinks about the actual content is, for political purposes, fantastically irrelevant. For the bigger question of whether our democracy is truly delivering people what they want, we could also engage in the classic argument that the people don't KNOW what they want, but we don't need to go there. Rather, we could simply observe that our system is hardly designed to "give the people what they want" and wonder why that would be a valid measure of the success of our system.
So Shiloh I haven't seen your response. When did you last cross party lines Mr. Openminded Free-Thinker? What race? What candidate? What was your reasoning? I showed you mine, now show me yours. Or at heart are YOU just a partisan cool-aid drinker in lock step with Big Brother?
Gatordad said...
~~~~~~~~~~~
As one appears to playing the devil's advocate in his few appearances at 538, why should I accept anything you say at face value ie it's far too easy to lie on the internet, eh.
Especially at political blog sport!
Previously have mentioned I am a "liberal" independent, voted for McGovern in '72, voted for Sen. Voinovich (1) time. Would have considered voting for McCain in 2000, but of course he had no chance against the party of No! machine.
Again, it's the lesser of (2) evils as I've been discussing politics on the net since 2003 and only after the 2008 election have I seen a wave of Libertarians come out of the woodwork ...
take care
p.s. here's my response, sport!
ciao
not to worry, as I have also mentioned, liberals never go away and will answer any question, sport!
Dear shiloh,
There is a time to wage war and a time to heal. Abraham Lincoln knew when it was a time to wage war and my guess is, he would have known when it was a time to heal.
Talking of politics, all political apparatchiks know how to fight but they never to know how to heal. To be fair, Bill Clinton was a healer, Barack is a healer. It is done to political leaders to show political leadership. True leadership leads to National progress!
The way the Dems get hammered in 2010 is if they don't get into the Senate and fight for health care reform. If they don't get health care reform done, kiss this here Democrat goodbye. I see health care reform as a great way to help turn the economy, also, so for me, it's killing two birds with one stone. I won't get out and vote for any Democrats if they don't get a bill passed and Independents will flock back to Dem candidates if they show some balls. The people against health care reform either don't know what the heck they're talking about (8 out of 10 right wingers) or they're corporate involved with those industries thriving on the status quo.
"Bill Clinton was a healer".
Huh?
Naive Brits (?) and their quaint notions regarding American Democrat politicians...
3rd party candidates will probably prove to be the biggest unpredictable wildcard in 2010 & beyond
each party has a basic floor at 40% in most state [see Deeds '09] and national elections...
when a 3rd party candidate siphons off 5-20% [see Dagget '09 & Franken '08 and Perot '92/96] and sometimes even lesser %'s [see Nader 2000], the 'winner' often has a simple plurality, agreed ?
so now we get the CONs threatening to run their own candidates EVERYWHERE in 2010 & beyond
in fact here in FL the new TEA PARTY has registered & is preparing to run statewide
so that could easily dampen the GOP historical edge at seeing significant congressional gains [see Owens '09]
SPLIT THE VOTE !!! GO TEA BAGGERS !!! GOIN' PALIN...
WV - coded
nicholasjalcock said...
~~~~~~~~~~~
Obama is trying, but as Reps will tell you ~ Behind every cloud, is another cloud! ie they are not even part of the equation as they are 100% negative obstructionists! Never anything good to say about anything.
Many politicians, as always, are worried more about getting re-elected than doing the right thing. This is part of the Dems trying to go it alone problem.
As always, America gets what it deserves and in the past have stumbled through somehow, damn luck usually, but now ... all bets are off!
Civility in American politics left town some time ago, now it's all about making pts. and keeping score, especially at political blogs! ;)
How was that an answer? You told me who you voted for last century (well 30+ years ago) and you thought about McCain. So what you really told me is you're one of those pathetic brainless people who just vote the party line. Because I don't see any kind of crossing the line there. Not like me voting for Bush 1 in '88 & '92but then Clinton in '96 cuz he HAD earned another shot. And once again I show you mine and you hide behind bullshit. I had thought better of you than that. I think I'll start calling you Mr. Openminded. Oh, wait. You're a liberal independant. You mean a Democrat. I know, you're probably embarassed about your party, but it's OK.
FRANKEN = BARKLEY '08 in last post
Dear Walker,
Bill wasn't a healer?
I accept his sexual impeccadillos didn't find resonance in a moral
America. But, Bill Clinton saw a renaissance in your manufacturing industry. It was finished before Bill but he set out to resurrect it. While, corporate and private America borrowed, his government saved! GW's government borrowed like drunken sailors as did the rest of America! Frankly, if America had followed on Bill Clinton's path it would be in a million times better state than GW's economic shambles! I am naive?
Better my naivitie, than America's bankrurtcy!!!
Gatordad said...
~~~~~~~~~~
No, you are the one embarrassed by your party ie (8) years of cheney/bush.
btw, one seems to be getting a tad upset, just like most of the conservative, winger trolls at 538. Calm down, it will be ok, palin will surely lead you to the promised land in 2012 as she is acting more and more like a Libertarian, eh.
take care, blessings
Dear Walker,
Bill wasn't a healer?
I accept his sexual impeccadillos didn't find resonance in a moral
America. But, Bill Clinton saw a renaissance in your manufacturing industry. It was finished before Bill but he set out to resurrect it. While, corporate and private America borrowed, his government saved! GW's government borrowed like drunken sailors as did the rest of America! Frankly, if America had followed on Bill Clinton's path it would be in a million times better state than GW's economic shambles! I am naive?
Better my naivitie, than America's bankrurtcy!!!
nicholasjalcock said...
deja vu all over again...
shiloh said…
“Boehner is a ticking time bomb.”
Amen to that. I have a feeling there’s a big scandal there right under the surface, somehow related to the tobacco industry.
“…but as Reps will tell you ~ Behind every cloud, is another cloud!”
Ha! Good one.
Pragmatus said...
~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Boehner, was talking about his health ie like Lou Dobbs re: immigration he always looks like his head is gonna explode do to high blood pressure!
“…but as Reps will tell you ~ Behind every cloud, is another cloud!”
This was/is a Judy Garland quote, as following the Yellow Brick Road wasn't all it was cracked up to be ...
my vote goes to Eric Cantor to be a future scandal for the GOP
something about him on screen smacks of smarmy gratuitous insincerity to the extreme
and I note that Eric started as a congressional intern... hhhmmm
not sure if he will end up being another Tom Foley/Larry Craig closet type with a page/intern interest [but that is what my gaydar tells me is quite likely]
or if he will go the Abramoff route... or both sex + influence peddling in the good ol' boy DC tradition
but something about Cantor on camera screams REPTILIAN imho
in fact, I think I saw him in a cameo on 'V' as one of the reptile visitors ~
What about this entry: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/11/12/2125223.aspx
It's at the bottom, and it concerns voter identification. Does this impact how we perceive the results?
Walker's insistance on linking Obama to Deval Patrick continues to baffle. The only reason he seems to think we should equate Patrick with Obama is the "poli-racial" trait. It's sickening to see him indulge in such a blatently racist meme. All the black politicians have to behave the same way according to Walker. That's a sign of a depravity that appears to go right down to his soul. Walker is enough of a sicko to spread this racist thinking, and to get himself off on picking on those European people he allegedly works with.
I bet Patrick will get primaried out. If not, whatever Republican or Independent that Massachusetts voters would vote for would probably be closest to Scozzafava. Just like liberal Republican William Weld won against Democrat John "Mein Campus" Silber. Right wing sickos like Jesse Helms gave Weld hell for a long time. I really bet that the Republican who goes up against Patrick will likely be Scozzafava'ed for his/her political impurity.
Missy, you're just repeating the Republicans' Big Lies that HCR is "killing" Obama and Cap & Trade is a "job killer". Hiring a bunch of thugs to riot at town meetings don't make the Big Lies true. And you note that too little of the stimulus has actually been spent. That might be the reason why the unemployment rate has not decreased yet: the stimulus has not been fully implemented. So get the stimulus money spent already so that it can be fully effective.
Hedge to the center? Obama never drifted all that far from the center, and he never will. Just like Clinton, whom the right wing nuts branded a lefty anyway. The notion that Obama is hard to the left is another one of the Goebbels Lies that the trolls here try to propagate.
I posted on the stategic advantages inherent in some 3 way races for the DEMs in 2010...
now just saw this late post at Political Wire:
'Patrick Leads Three Way Race in Massachusetts'
Even though most Massachusetts voters would vote against Gov. Deval Patrick (D) -- 55% want someone new -- a new Suffolk University poll shows he's on his way to re-election in a three way race.
In one possible match up, Patrick leads with 38%, followed by Timothy Cahill (I) at 26% and Charlie Baker (R) at 15%.
In another, Patrick leads with 36%, followed by Cahill (I) at 26% and Christy Mihos (R) at 20%.
============================
so maybe Patrick does have a route to re-election...
and the DEMs may decide to fund the 3rd party CON candidates to split the 'right' voters
Repubs are good at disinformation. But, as in the presidential campaign, and as with health care reform last summer, they're peaking too early.
Voters are getting impatient to see HCR passed. Once it does, the generic numbers will begin to turn around. When the economy improves, and the job numbers look better, that will help more.
We've been saying for a while - if these things happen, the Dems will do well in the midterms, and if not, not. Pretty simple.
Whatever Shiloh. I think the bullshit is pretty self evident. Again I ask, when have you ever (in the last ,oh, 2 decades) crossed party lines in a presidential election. Answer my question. I notice in every response you fail to do that. Why?
Straight up party moron are ya'?
You look like a narrowminded fool right about now. You're quick to call people racists, and any number of other perjoratives, but you don't seem to like someone taking notice of how small minded you are. Looks as if you can dish it out but you don't don't seem to take it well. The one I've seen making generalized statements and judgements about groups of people based on group identity or geographic locale is you. And isn't that the very definition of prejudice?
And BTW, I'm hoping Hillary faces Obama in the primaries. That's who I'd vote for. She's got bigger balls than Obama. Plus we'd get Bill for free.
One other thing. All this hype about Independents. But haven't people pointed out that a lot of these Independents were Republicans until recently. Therefore, these anti-Obama immigrants were voting against Obama already as Republicans. So this overhyped independent wave means no change to the actual number of anti-Obama voters; no Obama supportors actually getting flipped. Republicans seem to win only when the Obama dems decide to sit out the election. That happened to Deeds: Running like a conservative and distancing himself from Obama sure cost him.
@nicholasjalcock
Bill was nothing like a healer. I don't know what rock you've been under. The R's and D's want each other to die and have wanted this since the WWII generation has left the arena.
Jarv said...
@BDP: I refuse to cite a poll that focuses on the actual content of a bill in Congress because such a poll is fantastically irrelevant. Death panels were in no way, shape or form in the bills, but that didn't stop idiots from being afraid of them.
Polls as proxies for elections. The only reason to pay attention to them is for a politician to see if he or she will pay a price at the real polls. Thus, voters could be completely misinformed about the actual content of legislation, but that is cold comfort to the representative who votes for it and gets tossed out at the polls.
As a more general point, the actual work of Congress is so complex that voters have no chance of comprehending the actual substance; not because they are stupid, but because there's just too much for people to get through and make sense of while they hold down a job, play with the kids, etc.
Sure they do. Release the bill a couple weeks ahead of the vote and allow those who do have the time like reporters and think tank folks read, digest and summarize the bill for the voters. However, the Dems do not want their own backbenchers to read the damn thing, nevertheless the voters.
The information source people use to find out about the bills is flawed as well. Faux News mixes in so much conservative commentary that there's no time for an in-depth story on the actual content; MSNBC is too busy talking about who wins or loses; and CNN is saying "Look! Shiny graphics! Twitter! Facebook!" The newspapers USED to do it, but they just fired half their staff, and can barely keep up with publishing daily updates on meaningless polls.
The news has completely fallen down on the job. They should be demanding to be able to read (or have their attorneys and health care experts read) the bill and report on it prior to the vote. Instead, they simply report talking points.
Gatordad, so you support Hillary because you think she has "bigger balls"? So then you mean that you think Hillary can fight an agenda through, while Obama hasn't fought hard enough for his agenda? Then you have no problem if Hillary pounds through the Dem agenda in 2013, or if Obama starts fighting harder to pass it now, even though they'll "put their fingers in your pocket"?
Jason M,
I agree that there are important differences in 10 that makes the Republicans' chances a bit easier, but a game-changing election still requires two elements: 1.) fall of the majority party; 2.) rise of an alternative.
2 hasn't happened, and it probably won't happen. If the Republicans were organized, had a plan, and their brand rose in the polls, they could really take advantage of this situation. But the fact remains that the public still hates the Republican Party.
Right now, a rise of a third party on the far-right is still a more likely event than a Republican majority in November 2010. And, if that happens, Democrats might even end up *gaining* seats.
Doesn't Walker have an answer to the point that good economic management heals better than incompetent economic management?
Perriello in VA,
Markey in CO,
Teague in NM,
All 3 picked up seats in 2008, from the GOP. All three voted for Cap'N'Trade, With Perriello ALSO voting for HCR. And all three in districts where the PVI index is R+5 or higher.
Teague: Teague beat Obama by 5 points in this district. It's heavily Latino, which skews the PVI, as Bush and McCain were both personally pretty popular among Hispanics. I would not hang my hat on this one.
Markey: Beat Obama by 7 points. Defeated an incumbent by 10 points.
Perriello: Yes, HERE we go. Barely beat an incumbent who quite frankly had said some pretty funky things in his life, and had switched from Democrat to Independent to Republican. Barely beat Obama in the district. This one is pretty likely to switch back.
Keep in mind that a high R PVI is not what you want. That means that people split their vote pretty heavily, meaning they personally liked the candidate even if they voted Republican.
What you need is a guy who got around Obama's total in a swingy district. I'd say that by far the easiest guy to pick is Alan Grayson. FL-08 (which I used to live in) is a very fickle district that voted for Bush by 8-10 points in 2000 and 2004. Grayson won with pretty much the exact same total as Obama. It also really helped that Ric Keller, the incumbent, was a smarmy bastard (seriously, even Republicans didn't really like Keller). That's going to be a tough one for the Dems. Also, Grayson's being a dick in general.
Missy:
- win big Lefty points by striking DADT immediately. Americans will come to his defense on this in surprising numbers.
Why, then, would he do it a year before the elections? Keep in mind that people have a lot of different opinions about Obama, but I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that he is one hell of a savvy campaigner. Popular things will be close to the election, unpopular things far away.
@inkan
Quit putting words in my mouth.I don't agree with the whole Democratic 'agenda' so I would like to see the parts I agree with pushed through harder and the parts I don't like scrapped. But yes I think we need action on things. And I think that Hillary would have 'bigger balls' and a better understnding of foreign policy than Obama. And you must have missed the part where I said I think Obama to date has been a disaster. So no I wouldn't want him to push through his agenda. I think she would be more centrist and the Rep. don't seem to know whether they want to move to the center or to the right. So they have nothing to offer right now. And I like Hillary. And Bill. Your question, BTW, is ridiculous. As a libertarian I don't want to see either party 'agenda' pushed through. Only the parts that I find acceptable. Try to 'trap' someone else. And again, don't put words in my mouth or assume you know anything about me. You don't.
Why, then, would he do it a year before the elections? Keep in mind that people have a lot of different opinions about Obama, but I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that he is one hell of a savvy campaigner.
Oh yes, also, the more obvious reason that Obama isn't doing it is that he wants Congress to do it. Works out well for everyone - the Democrats can pass it while letting Dems in heavily African-American districts vote against it.
The bill is H.R. 1283. It's got 180 cosponsors at this time, so passing it should not be much of a trick. It was introduced back in March - they are simply waiting for HCR to pass. Once HCR passes, the Dems are going to spend the next year passing basically everything they can that will turn out the Democrat base.
Again, I'm not saying that the Dems are in an awesome position or that they won't lose seats. But trying to predict the outcome of an election a year from now, particularly when the currently winning party isn't in power and can't effectively define the agenda in Washington, is near-futile.
And I'd further note that if anyone can predict something like that a year ahead, it's the guy who correctly predicted the Tampa Bay Rays would win the World Series, Nate Silver. :P
Inkan,
A few points.
1. Cap and Trade really IS a job killer, losing between about 400,000 and 2.3 Million jobs. Those are non-partisan numbers coming from the CBO.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/cap-and-trade-green-jobs-or-job-killer/
2. Obama WOULD be better off setting a lower goal, celebrating victory, and letting things go. Much of the Democrats health care reform plan doesn't take effect for a couple years anyway.
3. Poll numbers have shown Independents signifigantly shifting away from Obama, from 65% down to 45% approval.
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/jobapproval-obama-inds.php
Meanwhile his approval numbers among democrats have only dropped 4 points (86 to 82%), while unsurprisingly his GOP approval numbers have shot down from 36% to 18%
DCM in FL,
said "deja vu all over again", is he saying "Afghanistan is Vietnam all over again"? What is deja-vu all over again, please explain?
Gatordad said...
Straight up party moron are ya'?
~~~~~~~~~~
So now you're resorting to name calling as most Republican trolls at progressive blogs do.
Again, calm down, name calling won't change the fact you're embarrassed re: voting for Bush in 2000 as you should be.
take care
Gatordad, how do you expect to be happy with democrat Hillary if you don't want to see the democrat agenda pushed through?
Pat, Dems lost elections in 2009 because Obama voters sat out. I'd expect them to sit out again if Obama decides to knuckle under for a lower goal. And is that Indy shift only because a big chunk of Republicans who already voted against Obama are now calling themselves independents?
And you must have missed the part where I said I think Obama to date has been a disaster.
See, this is the part I don't get. How has Obama been a "disaster"? Honestly. It just seems to me that a lot of people somehow thought that Obama was going to be or was supposed to be some kind of superhero who would swoop in and pull us out of one of the worst recessions in history lickety-split.
Stock market's going back up, unemployment's slowing, credit's eased up an incredible amount, we haven't seen insurmountable inflation (yet) nor deflation, and productivity's way up. These are all clearly positive economic indicators.
I appreciate that some people might not like his domestic initiatives but to call him a "disaster" at this point in his Presidency just seems bizarre. What has been disastrous? I know there are lots of things that the Republican party claims will be disastrous but I don't see the rationale for calling him a "disaster" right now.
it's the guy who correctly predicted the Tampa Bay Rays would win the World Series, Nate Silver. :P
This is totally incorrect on my part - he predicted they would win 90 games when it seemed very unlikely, and they won 97. They went to the World Series, but I don't think Nate predicted that.
Matt said...
I agree that there are important differences in 10 that makes the Republicans' chances a bit easier, but a game-changing election still requires two elements: 1.) fall of the majority party; 2.) rise of an alternative.
1) The Dems are destroying their political capital at an historically rapid rate - faster than 1993. Obama's approval numbers have free fallen faster than Clinton's and the Dem congressional generics among likely voters are in the thirties.
You folks on the left really do not get it.
In 2006 and 2008, Emamuel established the Dem majority in Congress by running candidates in Red districts promising to govern from the center-right with a theme of fiscal responsibility as an antidote to GOP big government spending and corruption. These Dems ran to the RIGHT of the GOP.
In 2008, Obama ran as a center-right candidate in every national forum and debate, promising tax cuts and net spending cuts. Every time the blogosphere leaked Obama being straight about "spreading around money" of "bitter clinger" conservatives, Obama changed the subject and his campaign personally destroyed the conservative involved like Joe the Plumber.
The conservative Indis believed these lies and elected the Blue Dogs and Obama. For obvious reasons, these conservative Indis are royally pissed that they were lied to and the Dems who represented themselves as centrists are pushing the hardest left turn since the Great Society.
I find it incredible that Dems are smart enough to know that they need to lie to voters about being center-right to get elected, but express complete puzzlement why those same center-right voters expect them to actually govern the way they promised.
2) The GOP only needs to run conservatives to take advantage of the wave heading to sweep the bums out for lying to the voters. McDonnell and Christie ran as conservatives and barely mentioned their GOP affiliation. The GOP can only rehabilitate its brand after the fact by governing as conservatives and re-establishing that GOP=conservative.
If the GOP does regain power and continues with its oxymoronic Bush "big government conservatism," then there is a very very real chance the GOP will go the way of the Whigs and a new conservative party will emerge. Last chance guys.
All Democratic polls must notice this: all Republican appartichiks
go to bed at 04.00 hrs British Winter time. Clearly, this must give them an edge at mid-term
elections!
NICHOLAS
sorry, it was a soft joke...
your post above it came through twice [9:40 PM & 9:43 PM]
your post above it came through twice [9:40 PM & 9:43 PM]
[so the deja vu reference...]
no offense intended ;-)
actually I appreciated your comments fwiw
1. Cap and Trade really IS a job killer, losing between about 400,000 and 2.3 Million jobs. Those are non-partisan numbers coming from the CBO.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/cap-and-trade-green-jobs-or-job-killer/
Mmm. From the link:
We should note that under some of the scenarios analyzed, EIA projected that total employment might increase by a small amount during the early years of a cap-and-trade program. For example, in the "basic" case, EIA found that employment might increase by about 96,000 jobs in 2012, 42,000 jobs in 2019 and 266,000 jobs in 2024, before ending with a loss of 597,000 in 2030.
Of course cap and trade is a "job killer" twenty years down the road - coal mines are pretty friggin' labor-intensive. In the next ten years, on the other hand, the cap and trade bill is pretty much job-neutral for most scenarios, and in the basic scenario, at least, is a job creator.
DCM-FL,
Sorry to miss your soft joke.I have just thrown out a soft joke to the Reps about being in bed at 04.00hrs British Winter Time. I missed your joke but so did the Reps!
This is no one's fault but Team Obama's. The Republicans made it clear from the start that they were going to play scorched earth politics, but Team Obama has been trying to compromise anyway. That's just plain stupid.
I never comment on this blog, but I must come out of the woodwork tonight to say one thing.
Gatordad Rocks!
I've been waiting for weeks to see someone finally call a spade a spade--basically, to say shiloh is a smarmy, arrogant, leftist who thinks he is smarter than everyone else here but really comes off as annoying at best.
What is hilarious is that anyone who dares to criticize Democrats, promote Republicans, or **heaven forbid** disagree with him a "winger troll" but does not seem to realize that he is the left's version of PeteKent--a winger troll indeed.
By the way, how many other 50-somethings on here operate a pornographic blog when not posting their sneering comments on 538?
So take care, indeed, Gatordad. And thank you for having the guts to stand up
And by the way, before you all start, I voted for Clinton in 96, Bush in 00, Kerry in 04, Obama in 08. I tend to be liberal, the Bush vote was out of dissatisfaction with Gore.
Gatordad said...
And BTW, I'm hoping Hillary faces Obama in the primaries. That's who I'd vote for. She's got bigger balls than Obama. Plus we'd get Bill for free.
~~~~~~~~~~~
btw, one may have missed it, but Hillary did face Obama in the primary, she lost. Most of the media covered it last year. But then she became Sec. of State, so, in a sense, Bill is on already on board for free.
and another of your embarrassments was voting for Bush41 in '92 since you apparently have grown to love Clinton ...
have this theory that someone who is extremely upset by my truth telling/sarcasm has to certainly be a diehard Rep, otherwise why would anyone care about hearing the truth about the last (8) years and the current discombobulated state of palin's political party.
... and the truth shall set you free!
Kevin said...
~~~~~~~~~~
So Kevin, you like porn. Otherwise, why would you look, eh.
take care
Actually I was looking at your blogger profile to try to find out if you were a 15-year-old or something. You've been pissing me off for a while now.
Kevin said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Well, you and Gatordad are both very good at name calling. Pot/Kettle ...
take care
The Mule said,
"You can make excuses and use others as scapegoats for only so long. After a while, that shit wears razor thin."
Tell me again, Uncle Mule, how it was Barney Frank, a minority member of the House of Representatives with so little clout that he could not keep the country from going into a senseless war, nor from enacting a ruinous tax cut, yet somehow single-handedly brought the greatest global financial crisis in 80 years down upon the world. And then tell me about his trusty side-kick Chris Dodd. Please?
I NEVER get tired of scapegoat stories!
I see little said about what the Republicans are going to run on other than not being Democrats. Occasionally there are mumblings about the deficit being to large, or we need tax cuts, but the deficits are large mostly because tax receipts fell off the table when the recession hit. Tax cuts will just exacerbate the deficits.
Not that a larger deficit would be a bad thing. Hoover balanced the budget in the teeth of the Great Depression, and GDP fell by thirty-something percent in three years. The absolutely worst thing we could do right now is put into power a bunch of fiscal conservatives.
What other issues will the Republicans run on?
It is undoubtedly true that the Democrats will lose seats int he 2010 election. This si due to a number of factors, some of which are beyond their control. Incumbents always suffer when the economy is tanking.
Much like with FDR, BHO inherited a calamity. Unlike FDR, BHO did not undergo a radical restructuring of the systemic ills that were causing the crisis. Nor did he break with his predecessor's publicly reviled economic policies-bank bailouts continued, he hired everybody for the Treasury Department out of Goldman-Sachs. He's still holding on to two massive government entitlement programs that are a severe drain on the economy with little hope of any worthwhile payoff-Iraq and Afghanistan, namely.
Much like FDR, he billed himself as Hope and Change. Unlike FDR, he got cold feet once he found himself in a position where he might actually have to do Hope and Change. Much like FDR, he was borrowingly attacked by the far right wing media. Unlike FDR, he didn't ignore it-instead, he got into a PR fight with opponents that buy ink by the barrel. Much like FDR, he pushed for public assistance programs to help the disadvantaged. Unlike FDR, he took a hands off approach, and let Congress write the bill.
Like FDR, he has been disparaged as the enemy of the upper class, the speculators, the bankers and the robber barons. Unlike FDR, he got scared the second the smear campaign started, and even fired some of his staff just because Glenn Beck insisted on it.
FDR: "They are united in their hatred of me, and I welcome their hate"
BHO "Let,s be bipartisan and make friends across the aisle!"
FDR: 4 consecutive Presidential terms of office won.
BHO: 1, maybe 2 if he finds a backbone in time.
Voters in Alan Grayson's district are going to make a special effort to re-elect him. Supporters of hsi know who he is and what he stands for. They will find a way to knock off work on Election Day, or to vote early, or to get their absentee ballots in on time, filled out correctly. He excites them, energizes them, gives them a reason to show up at the polls, even if the lines are long and the weather is bad.
Voters in districts where Wannabe Republicans are running will feel pretty ho-hum, since there's little difference between a conserva-Dem and a Republican-so why should they care which one wins?
Message to BHO and the DNCCC: Why would anyone vote for a Wannabe Republican when they can get the real thing? If you don't stand for something distinct from what your opponent represents-why should we give a fuck about you?
Levi Johnston should challenge Don Young for Alaska's At-Large Congressional seat.
The PLaygirl pics can only work in his favor-"I have nothing to hide!"
He can also claim to hold real power that he can wield on behalf of Alaskans. After all, Bristol Palin's hymen was guarded by the awesome power of the Almighty God, and he overcame that with a few gentle thrusts. Bristol was protected by the Power of Prayer and Faith, the Full Armor of God-and I'll bet she now wishes she had the pill on top of all that, just in case.
Johnston '10! We're breaking through!
RNC's insurance covers abortion
Thursday, Nov 12, 2009
Holy hypocrisy, GOP: The Republican National Committee's health insurance plan covers abortion. This news comes by way of Politico's Meredith Shiner and Jonathan Allen, who appropriately point out the obvious conflict here: "The party’s own platform calls [abortion] 'a fundamental assault on innocent human life.'" The RNC didn't opt out of abortion coverage, though, even though that is allowed by Cigna, its insurer. Worse yet, though, is the fact that 176 House Republicans voted for the Stupak amendment, which restricts federal funds from going toward insurance plans that cover abortion. God forbid the government help you to get an insurance plan just like the one enjoyed by the RNC.
When Politico called up RNC spokeswoman Gail Gitcho to ask about this funny little wrinkle, she explained that, oh, uh, the policy was instituted before Michael Steele became the RNC chairman. What about philosophical consistency, though? According to the reasoning behind the Stupak amendment, by paying for a plan that covers abortion, the RNC itself just might have paid for abortions.
Oops!
And oddly enough, even though the House health care bill carried the most restrictive Federal anti-abortion provisions since Roe v. Wade, every single Republican but one voted against it.
I think the Republicans are in serious trouble next year.
Johnston '10! We're breaking through!
Setting aside the obvious poor taste and the question about which Party he'd running under (House Party?), this makes the critical assumption that he was indeed the first tire track in the snow.
c'mon Nate, you're too good to even mention an Internet poll, especially since it'll obviously favor the Democrats. I expect better from you.
KEVIN
that is just a stoopid comment about Nate...
you had much more cred as a lurker
WV - syche [analyze that]
For the record, that is another Kevin who posted at 12:57. I only posted at 1145, 1147 and 1154. I would never say something like that about Nate, who I almost always agree with.
I do find it a little weird that another Kevin did post tonight. I never see another one on here.
DCM in FL said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Yea, the Kevin who I really piss off! and has trouble ignoring er is addicted to my posts is 7669, the other Kevin who is surprised Nate is a progressive is 8024.
SHILOH
yeah, guess you got under someone's skin...
but for either KEVIN to post, "...mention an Internet poll, especially since it'll obviously favor the Democrats."
I mean, WTF... dumb & dumber imho
that is like something that CHARLES or BDP would post to prove one of their randomly illogical idiocies
and on another point, why would a poster use a common name shared by many others ??? my given name is DAVE & it was obvious from the start that such a handle would never work...
but maybe that requires too much deep thought process...
DCM in FL said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Yea, we're all pretty much partisans here, very few middle of the road folk, as most middle of the road peeps wouldn't waste their time at a political blog imo.
Only someone who feels strongly about their particular party or strongly about a particular issue would post. So yea, there may be be some who feel really strongly about a particular issue who don't have a strong political ideology who post, but very few.
And then there's Jeff, 7669, who really doesn't like me and has trouble ignoring my posts and wanted to share his feelings, so he stepped out of the darkness into the light. No biggie, as mentioned previously, Nixon/Ailes/Safire/Agnew told me to love America or leave it!
Unfortunately for them, I stayed and shockingly joined the military! ;)
Again, everyone is free to ignore my sarcasm, or not ...
Jeff, who investigated my profile could tell you my name is Tim. Yes Virginia, my profile is open, unlike many of the conservative trolls here.
Really, it's easy to ignore posters as I've been ignoring a certain 538 troll for a couple mos.
And then there's Kevin, 7669
Kevin, who investigated my profile
carry on
Correction, there are (2) 538 posters I ignore.
Chucky poo?
Can you answer a question that's been bugging me for DECADES?
How many screen doors on a four door submarine?
You response is expected soonest.
Mike in Maryland
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@Persuter
Oh yes, also, the more obvious reason that Obama isn't doing it is that he wants Congress to do it.
Also, more importantly, DADT is a federal law (it's part of the Uniform Code of military justice), which means the president CANNOT do anything about it. It requires an act of Congress to change it.
@Pat
Poll numbers have shown Independents signifigantly shifting away from Obama, from 65% down to 45% approval.
Isn't it about time we killed this meme? It's been said a number of times here - the ranks of "independents" have been swelled lately by people who are now too embarrassed to call themselves "Republicans". They are people who have voted Repub all their lives, and are going to vote Repub no matter what. Independents are not "shifting away from Obama". It's just that more people who call themselves "Independents" are now disaffected Republicans.
Once you go on the defensive you are doomed. Dems should be aggressively asserting the fact that they are the "adult" party trying to find solutions to complex problems, many of which were created by the Republicans, who are acting like 2 year olds having their daily tantrums.
Once again Rasmussen was the leading indicator for the laggard polls. Yet, always such a rush by the leftists to reflexively badmouth him with nothing but their prejuducaes to guide them.
@Peter said...
Once you go on the defensive you are doomed. Dems should be aggressively asserting the fact that they are the "adult" party trying to find solutions to complex problems, many of which were created by the Republicans, who are acting like 2 year olds having their daily tantrums.
Well said. Now is not the time to be timid.
Once health care reform is enacted, there will be a steamroller of momentum - the whole audacious idea of getting that passed is going to furnish all the energy needed for the rest of the necessary changes - repeal of DADT, repeal of DOMA, passage of Cap and Trade, real reform of financial regulations, and so on. Obama is putting together a careful and thorough strategy for Afghanistan. We'll see the economy rebound - maybe a jobs bill.
You'll see the approval ratings - which are pretty good to begin with - start skyrocketing. Repubs, now at 20% identification, won't get better and may get worse. The far right will start eating the "merely" right, and there will be vicious primary battles and nutbat third-party candidates (which is already happening in Florida).
Contrary to predictions, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dems pick up a dozen House seats next year, and maybe even 1 or 2 more Senate seats.
But I bet you vote straight party line don't ya'? Or do you have enough integrity and intellectual honesty to admit when 'your guy' isn't living up to expectations and do something about it? When was the last time you crossed party lines, sport?
The real integrity is recognizing the value of a wasted vote. By that measure you have zero.
Nate wrote:
"although as an Internet-based poll and one that samples all adults rather than registered or likely voters, I'm not sure how seriously that data point should be taken.."
Don't forget the recent CNN poll of registered voters giving the Democrats a 6 point lead on a generic ballot. 952 RV sample, MOE of 3, on Nov. 3.
Really, though, we have to wait until the Republican primaries before such polling means anything. If the Republicans move dramatically to the Right, or if conservative third Parties split the vote (as in Florida), even marginal Democratic candidates could have a shot.
The wingnuts here love to re-define the word 'conservative' to mean "Tea Party wingnut", but their first instinct is always to try to re-define their way out of anything. Nothing shows that the Tea Party wingnuts are anything more than a faction of the relatively unpopular Republican base. Once again, just because something is popular with the base, does not mean it is popular with the nation as a whole.
Bachmann, as one of the figureheads of the wingnut movement, only won a plurality (46%) in 2008. If she loses, it will be interesting to see how those who posit a "conservative wave" will explain that.
Peter said...Once you go on the defensive you are doomed. Dems should be aggressively asserting the fact that they are the "adult" party trying to find solutions to complex problems, many of which were created by the Republicans, who are acting like 2 year olds having their daily tantrums.
Has it occurred to you attempting to be the "adult party" running the voters' lives as if they were children is precisely why the Dems are in trouble?
Sunshine go away today
I don't feel much like dancing
Some man's gone, he's tried to run my life
Don't know what he's asking
He tells me I'd better get in line
Can't hear what he's saying
When I grow up I'm going to make it mine
But these aren't dues I been paying
(Chorus)
How much does it cost, I'll buy it
The time is all we've lost, I'll try it
But he can't even run his own life
I'll be damned if he'll run mine, Sunshine
Sunshine - Jonathan Edwards
I feel (can't really put my finger on it) that this is a very difficult time for the Democrats, probably the most important weeks until the elections. The economy is bottoming out right now. And health-care reform is facing a wall in the Senate. I for one, am not really convinced that there are 60 Democrats in the Senate who want to get something done, that is, who want to pass something, no matter what it actually is. Maybe 59, but not 60. And there are the Senators who are getting cold feet in a muddy political environment.
I feel like something has to be done to maintain the democratic advantage, preferably a health-care bill via reconciliation. Or, alternatively a real filibuster.
The democrats are, once again, their own biggest enemies. The blue dogs are blocking a bill whoe non-passage would hurt them the most. Some democratic senators are dependant on special interest money and equate their own well-being with the well-being of the country. The "Obama-experiment" will fail if the health care bill fails and everything will be back to 1994.
@Todd Dugdale
Really, though, we have to wait until the Republican primaries before such polling means anything. If the Republicans move dramatically to the Right, or if conservative third Parties split the vote (as in Florida), even marginal Democratic candidates could have a shot.
Exactly. Once the primary season starts, a lot is going to change. I'm going to enjoy watching the right and the far right get into fistfights. NY-23 showed the way.
Bachmann, as one of the figureheads of the wingnut movement, only won a plurality (46%) in 2008. If she loses, it will be interesting to see how those who posit a "conservative wave" will explain that.
They'll explain that she wasn't hard right enough. Damn librul.
Also, more importantly, DADT is a federal law (it's part of the Uniform Code of military justice), which means the president CANNOT do anything about it. It requires an act of Congress to change it.
Not necessarily. But it certainly looks better for Congress to do it.
Peter said...Once you go on the defensive you are doomed. Dems should be aggressively asserting the fact that they are the "adult" party trying to find solutions to complex problems, many of which were created by the Republicans, who are acting like 2 year olds having their daily tantrums.
Has it occurred to you attempting to be the "adult party" running the voters' lives as if they were children is precisely why the Dems are in trouble?
The Republican/Libertarian "Sergeant Schultz" position in a nutshell. "There are no problems! I know nothing! NOTHING!"
Personally if all the blue dogs lose that would be ok with me. we might as well have real republicans instead of fake ones.
To be honest I wouldn't worry yet, it's still way to early. Just imagine the stalemate we would have if the GOP did win back congress.Nothing would get done.
As it is they will win enough seats to stop most bills from passing with the blue dogs on there side.
Keep in mind though that the country dislikes republicans more than the democrats so hard to see a giant wave to republicans.
Hey shiloh,
apparently you really are that stupid. I'm pro gay rights, pro choice, for the repeal of DOMA an DADT. How in the name of God do you equate that with Palin. So I guess you really are that stupid. I already know you're a pussy. Otherwise when are you going to answer my question? You just dodge and weave and throw out more horse shit. Answer my question you elderly, stupid pussy. And BTW, yeah voting fo Bush in 'oo might have been a mistake, but I own my fuckups, old man. I don't hide like a geriatric pussy.
@joel
Personally if all the blue dogs lose that would be ok with me. we might as well have real republicans instead of fake ones.
And the nice thing about that would be in 2012 we could replace them again, with real Dems.
If unemployment is over 10% a year from now, then Dems will be in trouble.
Fortunately for them, the economy has been steadily improving since this summer and it takes about 6 months for employment to catch up to GDP growth.
If elections were held today, Dems might lose a few seats. Since they are being held 11 1/2 months from now, which is longer than Obama has been in office to date, panicking is probably the worst possible response.
The Democratic congress has been a sorry spectacle this year but compared to the Republican clown show and the tea party mayhem they are the only game in town. Sad because these political jokers are tearing the nation down by their inablity to do the nation's business well and properly. When asked why America's star faded and the worlds strongest, richest nation was eclipsed it will have to be said that the people who ran the place were too busy siphoning the wealth off for themselves when they should have been minding the shop for the next generation. Greed and corruption in business and government is ruining this nation and the next crisis will probably bring us to our knees much worse than this go round has. The excess wealth is gone and now they are feasting on the vital organs.
If unemployment is over 10% a year from now, then Dems will be in trouble.
Fortunately for them, the economy has been steadily improving since this summer and it takes about 6 months for employment to catch up to GDP growth.
Yeah, to me, the easiest way to not panic is just to take a deep breath and look at Reagan's unemployment figures as compared to today.
1981 7.5 7.4 7.4 7.2 7.5 7.5 7.2 7.4 7.6 7.9 8.3 8.5
1982 8.6 8.9 9.0 9.3 9.4 9.6 9.8 9.8 10.1 10.4 10.8 10.8
1983 10.4 10.4 10.3 10.2 10.1 10.1 9.4 9.5 9.2 8.8 8.5 8.3
1984 8.0 7.8 7.8 7.7 7.4 7.2 7.5 7.5 7.3 7.4 7.2 7.3
2008 4.9 4.8 5.1 5.0 5.5 5.6 5.8 6.2 6.2 6.6 6.8 7.2
2009 7.6 8.1 8.5 8.9 9.4 9.5 9.4 9.7 9.8 10.2
I see the economy now as being largely in the same situation it was in in late 1982 - right down to virtually the exact same amount of GDP growth in the third quarter. If unemployment peaks in December or January and begins heading down, there's ample reason to think that it will be at 9% or below by next November.
If unemployment is below 9% with all other economic indicators looking very positive, and there's no particularly negative developments in other areas, I simply don't see how the Republicans are going to muster a "wave".
Something else, too - the Republicans are dismissing the turnout in 2008 as fluky and based on Obama's personal star power. Now, obviously Obama had a lot to do with it - but there's no particular reason to believe that Obama as President won't be able to get an unusually large Democratic turnout in 2010 as well.
If there is a large turnout of typically non-midterm voters such as young people, all bets are off. Keep in mind that most of the polls use "likely voter" models which only works if the actual voters are like the "likely voters". For the Democrats manage to not lose seats (which I think is very unlikely), this is the route they need to go. If young people vote in large numbers next year, it will be a serious problem for the Republicans.
Gallup schmallup. Two pundits were discussing how bad it would be for dems and the Pres if the healthcare bill were dragged out into the election cycle. My reaction was, YES! Please don't throw me in to that briar patch!
Conservatives have been claiming how the dems want to kill your grandmother? Imagine, in every contested race, a democratic campaign commercial with a crawl of the names of the people who have died because they had no health care insurance, IN THAT DISTRICT, since republicans and blue dogs began opposing health care reform. Imagine the survivors of the deceased describing how their father (mother, son, daughter) HAD healthcare insurance but was denied treatment so that the CEO of Wellpoint could buy a third summer mansion.
Dems points may be falling, they may not. If campaigns hold candidates accountable for their performance in this fight the results could be significant.
fdp
Persuter said...
If unemployment is below 9% with all other economic indicators looking very positive, and there's no particularly negative developments in other areas, I simply don't see how the Republicans are going to muster a "wave".
The 1994 wave election occurred with 40% less unemployment.
Something else, too - the Republicans are dismissing the turnout in 2008 as fluky and based on Obama's personal star power. Now, obviously Obama had a lot to do with it - but there's no particular reason to believe that Obama as President won't be able to get an unusually large Democratic turnout in 2010 as well.
The 2006 off year turnout was the upper ceiling for the Dems. However, Bush is long gone, Dem enthusiasm is way down, the Indis have turned on you, the conservative enthusiasm is twice that of the libs, no one will believe the Blue Dogs again when they campaign as conservatives, and polling is recording the highest anti-incumbent sentiment since 1994.
If there is a large turnout of typically non-midterm voters such as young people, all bets are off.
Almost none of this demographic went to the polls last week in VA and NJ and historically they do not show on off year elections.
@Moby
That and other no votes cast by Republicans. Every Republican Senator who voted against the Franken Amendment, for example, could be faced with adds listing people who have been raped at work due to the negligence of their employers.
I mean some of these votes are just sick.
@shrinkers
DADT is going to be attached to some military budget thingy next year. I forget where I read/heard this otherwise I would cite the reference.
I'm probably going to bail from the comments section for awhile. It's troll central and I'm tired of the same old bullshit from the same obtuse posters. Keep the good fight. I realize that the topic of this thread was troll bait but without community moderation it's just tiresome.
See ya out in the universe.
We need a health care plan right away but there's no reason that we can't start working on jobs now too. I will also not be sad to lose blue dog seats. I don't know which is worse a real GOPer or one is disguise.
@Bart, less voters turn out for off year elections, but more turn out for ones where Senators and Representatives are being voted for. The NJ and Virginia votes were just State level and with uninspiring choices (which is less corrupt in one, which is lying less in the other). The turnout for House and Senate races is generally quite a bit higher and with real effort at get-out-the-vote drives, Dems and independents can be inspired to show up. They just have to believe it matters.
@Mule, "Can we get an update on the state of utter disarray the economy is in?" -- Yes, it is recovering better than most have been predicting. As expected, job recovery lags, but job loss has stopped. Consumer confidence, as usual, tends to run counter-cyclical to reality. That is, the media reports retail is down and economy is not recovering well and jobs are slow to recover, so confidence goes down after that. Then, media reports big improvements in economy, so confidence goes up after that. So, the two are often in opposition. Downside is that confidence affects buying, so the cycles continue for a while. But, overall things look positive. Not sure how much stimulus will affect that, but should help with the job story which will help consumer confidence. Job fears drive confidence more than any other factor.
@ MU & shrinkers
(AP)The law that prohibits openly gay servicemen from serving in the military may be repealed as an amendment to the 2011 Defense Department budget bill, the Washington Blade reports.
The repeal of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" (DADT) rule should be a part of the defense budget, much like the recent extension of hate crimes protections for LGBT citizens, Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) told the Blade. Frank is one of three openly gay members of the House.
"The House will take up and the Senate will take up 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal," Frank reportedly said. "That will again, like hate crimes, even more so, will have to be done, I believe, in the context of the defense authorization. You can't do the standalone bill. It belongs in the defense authorization."
Bart:
The 1994 wave election occurred with 40% less unemployment.
Yes, the raw unemployment rate, divorced from any trendlines, history, or indeed any other economic factors, is a simply marvelous data point. Thank you, Bart. :rolleyes:
Almost none of this demographic went to the polls last week in VA and NJ and historically they do not show on off year elections.
Wow, welcome to the point. Yes, they historically don't show up, as I explicitly said in my last post. If they do, you guys are in serious trouble. Obama did not spend a great deal of time whipping the vote for two governorships (with fairly uninspiring candidates) and two House races - in sharp contrast to next year, I would expect.
I would also point out the simple fact that the Democrats won both House races, one in a R+ district.
The 2006 off year turnout was the upper ceiling for the Dems.
lol, oh that's right, I forgot - you can see the future.
Mule:
If you don't see the impending economic and financial doom in this country, you are not intelligent enough to be commenting on a blog such as this one.
Mm-hmm. Hold on while I write down that quote, Chicken Little - might come in handy next year.
@Mule, "Really? Most of who is predicting? Link? " -- The predictions most often carried by the news media had the recession lasting until early 2010. But, we are likely out of it and on the recovery side (will take another month to be sure). Look up economists and recession and you will find lots of unnamed economists making collective predictions/forecasts. They are unnamed so if they are wrong, they stay anonymous. If they are right, they can claim they were correct. But the tide has changed in the last month in terms of collective view of economists (you can look that up as well).
"Certainly not from my vantage point." -- this is typical. Economists look at the big picture in terms of manufacturing, service, trends, imports, credit, business development, etc. The common person looks at his/her job, local unemployment and plant closures or layoffs and thinks otherwise. This is why your "vantage point" is not used in economic forecasting. But, your vantage is part of the consumer confidence ratings.
Excellent post! Keep up the awesome work!!
COMMON CENTS
http://www.commoncts.blogspot.com
ps. Link Exchange?
@Gatordad
(AP)The law that prohibits openly gay servicemen from serving in the military may be repealed as an amendment to the 2011 Defense Department budget bill, the Washington Blade reports.
Thanks for posting that. Yup, it'll be another big win for the Administration. Things keep looking better for the Dems in the mid terms!
"Give me an honest answer. Would you say the same thing if conditions were exactly the same but McCain was President and Republicans controlled Congress by a 60-40 margin?" -- Yes. I defended the Bush admin when they were seeing a recovery in the 2001 recession (around this time in 2001). To me, it is just about whether there is growth or not, not about who is in power. We can agree that the people in power can speed up the process or slow it, but the process is driven by the forces of many.
The bigger issue is the media handling of recessions. I suspect that Fox News will try to suggest that the economy is bad all the way to Nov 2010 if they can (helps GOP). I know that all major media outlets will have breathless reports good and bad as long as they can, as they want ratings (eyes and/or ears) more than anything else. Feeding people's fears and worries is the best way to get them to watch the news other than sensational news stories (trials, deaths, war).
@Mule
What were you economists doing when Messr. Bush decided that it was okay to go to war and cut taxes at the same time ?
One other factor for the mid terms -
I think if the Republicans show up to vote, then the Republicans are in trouble. Look what happened in NY-23. The enthusiastic Republicans showed up, and the Republican candidate was forced to drop out - then the conservative candidate lost.
I think this is a harbinger of a Republican wave. If they keep showing up like this, we can be assured the Dems will pick up maybe 15 seats in the House.
One thing that will probably help is the fact that the House Republicans - with one exception - voted against the bill that contained the most sweeping Federal restrictions on abortion since Roe v Wade. The Republicans must have been opposed to abortion before they were for it.
Of course, the pro-rape vote of the Republican senators on the Franken Amendment is going to help them, too.
Yessir, looks like a great year for the Republicants in 2010. The Hair Club for Growth is already starting in Florida. NY-23 all over again. And again. And again.
(I need to buy some stock in popcorn....)
"I am an economist, jackass. And I work with a team of economists. And our nearly unanimous opinion is that the shit is going to hit the fan and this economy is going to double-dip into oblivion." -- It will be interesting to see if you own up to being wrong if the outcome is that you are wrong. It is amazing to me how quickly economists either distance themselves from poor predictions (did your "team" see this recession coming before it came???) or have a myriad of excuses as to why it was not their fault.
In any case, your view should not be based on your "vantage point" but from valid data. I would suspect you are in fact more likely skewing the data or choosing it to match your vantage point. This is why economics is a social/soft science and not a hard science.
Hmmmm, Mule just said he's an economist jackass.
I believe him.
There are economists on the left and right of the spectrum since probably the beginning of time.
From what I have seen economists start from the conclusion that works for them and then work backwards to pick up the data points that best match their view points.
That said, maybe Mule knows something that we do not.
So what should we do Mule ? Reduce taxes some more ?
Mule,
I'm surprised by your list of suggestions. I agree with about half of them. If you and I were in charge, we might even find a compromise.
I'm writing down the date.
(Friday the 13? no wonder....)
@ Mule
Maybe Obama is a spend into oblivion liberal, but it is really hard to blame all this on his philosophy. A number of decisions that have been taken have had people who seriously think of this agreeing and disagreeing on this. So I do not really know what to make of it.
If all economists were disagreeing with the strategy right now you could argue that they are ignoring economics and following ideology. But since that is not the case everything gets blurred.
Life is never really black and white but whole shades of gray.
I will agree with you that we cannot keep spending what we do not have. And thus need to find a way to cut our defense spending, stop spending money on stuff that we do not need and give up on pie in the sky plans like going to Mars etc.
Aah Mule
I did not see your post. I do agree with them. By the way have you seen the GS pay scales ? The Fed employee is not a fat cat by a long shot.
@DEM_in_Virginia
Life is never really black and white but whole shades of gray.
Yeah. Nothing's simple. Period.
I will agree with you that we cannot keep spending what we do not have. And thus need to find a way to cut our defense spending, stop spending money on stuff that we do not need and give up on pie in the sky plans like going to Mars etc.
The problem is one of priorities, of balancing current needs (real needs, not trumped-up ones) and things with future payoff.
Two great examples are things you mentioned.
a) America now spends more on military than the entire rest of the world combined. And most of that money goes to new weapons systems that we don't need, and that never really work right anyway. We could cut the military budget in half, and still meet all of America's security needs - that's about $300 billion per year right there, or 3 trillion over the next decade.
b) OTOH, NASA spending is a drop in the bucket, it is incredibly cheep compared to the rest of the federal budget or to any of the entitlement programs - on the order of maybe 6 billion per year, or about 1% of the military budget, less than 1/3 of 1% of the total Federal budget. And the potential payoffs there are enormous, in terms of knowledge, technology, jobs, new sources of materials and energy, and even potential colonies.
Not everyone has the same priorities, of course, and even at the incredibly cheap price, not everyone will agree NASA (for isntance) is worth it. But the problem really is one of prioritization, and until we, as a nation, get our priorities straight, we'll have these budget problems.
Gatordad said...
Hey shiloh,
apparently you really are that stupid. So I guess you really are that stupid. I already know you're a pussy. Otherwise when are you going to answer my question? You just dodge and weave and throw out more horse shit. Answer my question you elderly, stupid pussy. And BTW, yeah voting fo Bush in 'oo might have been a mistake, but I own my fuckups, old man. I don't hide like a geriatric pussy.
~~~~~~~~~~
So much anger and name calling! Very sad. Apparently I struck a nerve in the faux Libertarian.
Please continue your name calling or no.
btw, you have never, ever said anything negative about cheney/bush, but thanx for coming out of the closet as a name calling conservative troll, who was never really a devil's advocate, so many contradictions re: gatordad
In 2007, Rasmussen had a ridiculous 11 point average lead for the Democrats on the generic ballot. Throughout 2008 it bounced around between a 4% and a 10% Democrat lead.
It's too early for these predictions to be meaningful, and it's too early to use a likely voter screen.
That's not a particularly bad list Mule Rider. Although...
They need to cut out most of the subsidies for agriculture, and especially for corn ethanol.
... that's nowhere near the top of crazy agriculture subsidies. Not even just counting corn. If you cut that deep that fast you'll create an even more disparate society in rural America than you've got now. The reason of course it isn't going to happen is that agriculture heavy states (that have a much, much higher per capita representation in Congress) either aren't going to let it happen or it'll be a blood bath come election time for whoever is seen as the instigator. *shrug*
Besides being the antithesis of "we pull together and stand together".
"... that's nowhere near the top of crazy agriculture subsidies."
Maybe not but it's among the most wasteful. Corn ethanol subsidies drive up the price of food, encourage the planting of soil-depleting crops, and are an impediment to real alternative energy development.
That and subsidies to Conagra and Monsanto aren't really that helpful to the economy at large.
@Mule, you are saying someone still thinks Corn Ethanol is a net positive energy product? It only gets worse when you consider the impact on food prices.
The problem is, as stated by Dwight, is that farm belt states have over representation in the Senate (cause they get the minimum 2) and form the basis for the "Red State" voting block for the GOP. So, fat chance of that changing.
We need to cut federal spending by 25%....much of which can be achieved by cutting the over-inflated salaries of all middle and upper-tier federal employees.
How much is the total federal payroll? How much is the total amount paid to "middle and upper-tier federal employees"?
Give me an honest answer. Would you say the same thing if conditions were exactly the same but McCain was President and Republicans controlled Congress by a 60-40 margin?
I don't know about anyone else, but I sure would. I like how you spend half your time screaming about how we shouldn't assume you're a partisan Republican but never return the favor.
Let's see how much your optimism holds out as we continue to have unprecedented debt and an unprecedented trade deficit, which will coincide with unprecedented home foreclosures, unprecedented job loss, unprecedented losses in the stock market, and unprecedented high costs for food and energy, which will lead to unprecedented levels of homelessness and hunger in this country.
These already happened. 2008 was the worst year for job losses, home foreclosures, the stock market (the Dow, anyway), and food cost growth since World War 2.
All. On. Obama's. Watch.
Oh that's right, I forgot - time starts Jan. 20, 2009.
Personally, I was in college at that time. I didn't understand the consequences of those decisions at the time
But now six years later you have all the answers. Got it.
Make a bet with me now. If the unemployment rate is above 15% on June 30, 2011, you agree to meet me for a fistfight.
:rolleyes: I like how this isn't even a bet, which usually have some sort of downside if you lose. It's just you expressing your desire, as usual, to commit violence against strangers. Why not just offer to gut me like a fish?
"Oh that's right, I forgot - time starts Jan. 20, 2009."
Persuter, you may jest, but have you considered that maybe time did start on Jan. 20th?
http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2009/11/09/tomo/index.html
Because otherwise nothing said on Fox News throughout the past year would make any sense.
shiloh:
I noticed you were up pretty late last night. What time did your mom finally make you get out of bed this afternoon?
Yes, it's time to start worrying. We are following a similar path to the one taken in 1994. The Democrats can't get their act together. Failure of health care reform will mean 1994 all over again. Right now, I say it's a 50-50 chance that the Senate will pass a health care reform bill, and if the Senate passes a bill another 50-50 chance of a bill surviving conference. The outlook is beginning to look poor. The only difference between now and 1994 is that the economy is much worse. If the Democrats don't shape up, 2010 will be much worse than 1994 for the Democrats.
GROG said...
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Something original would be nice if one is trying to be clever, but obviously that is too much to ask, eh
OMG - THE SKY IS FALLING !!!
or maybe not...
WV - phofit [phony profits, eg - ponzi scheme] or a FAUX prophet who cannot spell or speak [eg Sarah Palin]
esong_98 wrote:
"The only difference between now and 1994 is that the economy is much worse. If the Democrats don't shape up, 2010 will be much worse than 1994 for the Democrats."
The demographics are so totally different now than they were in 1994 that it's difficult to take you seriously.
In 1994, the minority vote was 14% of all votes cast.
In 2008, it was 25% of all votes cast. See here. Nothing is different except the economy, you said.
The Republicans would have to win 60% of the white vote to re-take the House. In 1994, they won 54 seats. So you are actually predicting they will win a net of more than that? Even though the Republican Party favourables are lower than they were in 2006? Even though the GOP's strength is primarily in the South and Mormon West?
And you base this on conflicting generic ballot polling taken a year out? Or just your own deep personal insight from your extensive nationwide interviews with voters? Or perhaps the voices in your head?
Like I said, at this point in the last cycle, Rasmussen(!) was showing +11 for the Democrats in generic ballot polling, but the Republicans ended up losing "only" 21 House seats. Generic ballot polling at this point (especially with a likely voter screen) is about as worthless as BDP's prediction of a double-digit Hoffman win.
From WaPo:
"There are currently 29 states in which Democrats enjoy a 10-percentage point (or more) edge on party identification. Compare that to just four states where the Republican edge is ten points or higher (Utah, Wyoming, Idaho and Alaska) and one (Alabama) that leans toward the GOP."
Yeah, 54+ seats net to the Republicans, right esong_98?
"I'd also be thinking about policies -- like a jobs package and financial regulation -- that tap a little bit into the populist spirit and might result in somewhat awkward Republican positioning. "
AGREED!
WWFDRD? (What Would FDR Do?) We need a New New Deal. It worked for America and it worked for FDR.
Todd Dugdale: I did not intend for people to take "the only difference" statement too literal. I apologize for the confusion and will be more careful what I say in the future.
I was trying to highlight that the economy is now much worse than in 1994. If health care reform fails, the Democratic base will be demoralized, and Democratic turnout will be very low. If the unemployment rate remains above 10 percent, independents will vote Republican in droves. There will be a perception that Congress spent most of Obama's term fighting over health care reform while the economy sunk to new post WWII lows. Obama started out with such high expectations that disappointment in 2010 will be higher than usual.
If I were a Democrat campaign manager, I would not take for granted that minorities will vote, and vote for Democratic candidates in proportion as they did in 2008 or 2006. If Hispanics vote Republican in the same proportion they voted for Bush in 2004, the Democrats will be in trouble.
If in the near future Harry Reid announces to the nation that "Health care reform attempts have failed," the Democrat poll numbers will plunge like rock dropped in a pond. No, I can't prove that will absolutely happen, but it happened in 1994. If the Democrats show the country they can't govern, then yes the Republicans can gain 54+ House seats.
Today, the Republicans according to two national polls are about 5 points ahead in the generic polling. I would be curious to see what the numbers were in November of 1993.
200!
shiloh said...
So much anger and name calling! Very sad. Apparently I struck a nerve in the faux Libertarian.
Please continue your name calling or no.
btw, you have never, ever said anything negative about cheney/bush, but thanx for coming out of the closet as a name calling conservative troll, who was never really a devil's advocate, so many contradictions re: gatordad
Again shiloh the pussy refuses to answer my question. Who are you shiloh. so far what we know is
1. you're elderly (you voted McGovern so you're like what 103)
2. you're a self avowed pornographer
so Shiloh = geriatric pornagrapher = dirty old man.
so basically shiloh, your whole pathetic life is jerking off on the internet. and is it true you have child porn? I'm not sayin' ya do, but there are all those rumors. And I'm sure you'll deny it, but hey like you said everybody lies on the internet so I guess I have no choice but to assume you're lying about that. So shiloh (or should I call ya' Grampa Scumbag-pornographer)?
I'll ask one more time answer my question. See ya' Grandpa Pedo
@Gatordad
3.He's a veteran of the US Navy, Vietnam war era.
I realize that doesn't give anyone license to be an asshole but you might want to cut him a little slack. Despite his unusual delivery, he does keep our real trolls on their toes here and let's the rest of us attempt to deal with substantive matters.
Just sayin'
Not sure where you get the pornographer claim but I haven't been involved for a few days and am not going to read your back and forth arguments.
Sorry, but being a veteran doesn't give you license to be an asshole. And he NEVER contributes anything substantive, he just takes an occasional break from his porn surfing to call people names and be an ass. He's a pathetic old codger and that is his choice. And when confronted, as in this case, you notice he never answered the question, just more snarky bullshit. He is a pathetic geriatric pussy.
@esong
Hispanics, in 2004, gave Bush 38 percent of their vote and not the mistakenly reported 44 percent. The GOP is the party of whites and will win or lose depending on what the white votes does, and they'd better get used to that fact if they want to win in the future. What are called "hispanics" are usually a mixture of, mostly, Iberian-originated Europeans and Amerindians. One of the best predictors of whether a "hispanic" votes GOP or Dem is their percentage of European ancestry. The greater the percentage of European ancestry, the more likely that individual is to vote GOP.
The only reason why Bush managed to increase his share fo the hispanic vote 6 points over the historical average, is the housing bubble. Basically, Rove bribed a small percentage of hispanics into the GOP by promoting increased minority housing. Rove did this based on the theory that renters are more likely to vote Dem, which is factually correct, so increased home ownership would increase GOP vote totals. But his error was in conflating correlation and causation. Home ownership is unlikely to cause GOP voting, but it probably correlates strongly with other factors that have a causal relationship, such as ethnicity.
2009 elections show that the only route to GOP electoral viability is through winning suburbs in coastal metropolitan areas. This means winning over affluent white voters who are not overly fond of theologically rigid Christians. Basically, the GOP's goal is to win 70 percent, or more, of the white vote, which is doable.
Gatordad said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Do you feel better now?
btw, do you do name calling like this around gatorchildren or only when you are posting anonymously on the net?
and again, please continue your name calling/ad hominems while saying the same thing over and over again as obviously ;) you are pure as the driven snow when it comes to christian family values.
May I suggest calling me a child molester in your next post as you have pretty much run the gamut on insults.
hmm, child porn, maybe you are projecting now ...
Your question was answered when I said it's very easy to lie on the internet ie don't believe much of anything you say as you are obviously a very angry conservative and many conservative trolls just make stuff up at progressive blogs.
and please show your children these posts as it may be an eye opener to them ~ use it as an educational tool!
yea, posting anonymously on the net makes some winger conservatives feel they can say most anything especially when their feathers are ruffled by liberals.
take care
Forgot to mention, when I was on the U.S.S. Saratoga in 1985 they had an in-house tv channel that showed 24/7 porn.
Shocking that a military ship would corrupt sailors w/depravity like that and during Reagan's presidency, no less. Don't tell the evangelicals.
And the Sara was home ported in Jacksonville, FL gatordad's state.
Pornography in the military and on the internet, say it's not true ...
@shiloh
I don't give a shit about porn. I just think you're pathetic. You don't do anything on here but call people names and attach labels. You are the very definition of a pussy. Anonymous postings ripping on people but with not one real contribution. You're a sad bitter old waste of space. If you are so fucking enlightened then answer my question. When have you ever been non-partisan. You continue to dodge. Because at heart you're just a party hack spewing empty rhetoric. Allow me to reiterate. You are a pathetic waste of space. Tata Grampa Gasbag. Oh, and God Bless. Asshole.
Gatordad said...
~~~~~~~~~~
If I'm pathetic, waste of space etc. why do you continue to respond w/hatred and anger? Having a hard time ignoring me, eh.
Obsessed much!
Again, show all your recent posts to your children, make an impression.
GATORDAD
fwiw, yours is a sad sack handle...
plus YOU are a pathetic coward to hide behind a blind profile
it is U who is acting the proverbial pathetic TROLL
quit flingin' crap & crawl back into your gator hole or under whatever rock you slithered out from under
STFU
Good time to repeat (2) posts from this thread about, oh yea, panic!
shiloh said...
nicholasjalcock said...
I have read these and many other comments during the last presidential election. Americans ability to tear themselves apart is somewhat scary! Shouldn't you be trying to find common ground and move forward?
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Currently, Dems/Reps hate/despise each other after many years of scorched earth campaigning by Ailes/Atwater/Rove.
And gasp, this tactic didn't work in 2008 and adding fuel to the fire, an African/America family is living in the White House in a country where many of its citizens are still fighting the Civil War.
Republicans, like Capt. Kirk in Star Trek II, don't like to lose and are very, very sore losers and have a very hard time rationalizing a defeat of any kind, let alone to a minority candidate.
Oh the humanity as everything the party of No! does nowadays is trying to move poll #s rather than trying to help the country move forward.
One just has to look at Rep politicians faces to see the anger and hatred. Boehner is a ticking time bomb ...
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shiloh said...
nicholasjalcock said...
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Obama is trying, but as Reps will tell you ~ Behind every cloud, is another cloud! ie they are not even part of the equation as they are 100% negative obstructionists! Never anything good to say about anything.
Many politicians, as always, are worried more about getting re-elected than doing the right thing. This is part of the Dems trying to go it alone problem.
As always, America gets what it deserves and in the past have stumbled through somehow, damn luck usually, but now ... all bets are off!
Civility in American politics left town some time ago, now it's all about making pts. and keeping score, especially at political blogs! ;)
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Re: my being a party hack, again, I'm a liberal independent and have criticized Obama/Dems quite often at 538, whereas Reps/Cons/Libertarians, whatever criticizing cheney/bush, not so much.
Indeed, civility in American politics left town some time ago, especially at political blogs.
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