Let me declaim that the utterly fascinating special election in NY-23 has become nearly impossible to forecast. Special elections, with their low turnout, are intrinsically pretty difficult to predict. So are multi-candidate races. And certainly, races where there are substantial late-breaking developments -- such as the Republican candidate dropping out four days before the election and endorsing her Democratic rival -- present especial difficulties for forecasters. Here, you have all three of those circumstances, producing a perfect storm of uncertainty. Not only will I not be surprised if either Democrat Bill Owens or Conservative Doug Hoffman wins on Tuesday -- I will not be surprised if one of them wins by a substantial, possibly even double-digit margin.
With that said, here are what seem to be the three critical questions as we near the finish line:
1. Would Dede Scozzafava have dropped out if she thought it would hurt the Democrat Owens, whom she's endorsed?
The conventional wisdom after Scozzafava dropped out, but before she endorsed Owens, was that this would help Doug Hoffman. Hence Scozzafava was praised by the likes of Sarah Palin, who has endorsed Hoffman, for acting "selflessly", along with a host of other Republicans.
I have argued that this thinking is superficial. There are a lot of moderates in NY-23 -- most of whom are registered as Republicans. And there are a lot of ticket-splitters; consider that retiring Republican incumbent John McHugh got 65 percent of the vote last November whereas John McCain got 47 percent. That means that at a bare minimum, 18 percent of the electorate split their ticket, a figure which perhaps not coincidentally is nearly identical to the 20 percent support that Scozzafava had held before she exited the race.
Scozzafava's remaining supporters were mostly registered Republicans, but they also had mostly positive views of Barack Obama, and negative views of both Owens and Hoffman. Yesterday, when it looked like Scozzafava was going to endorse Hoffman, I posited that 30 percent of her support would go to Hoffman, 20 percent to Owens, and the remaining 50 percent would either vote for Scozzafava anyway or would sit the election out. If we reverse those numbers in the wake of her endorsement of Owens, that would make the contest Owens 44, Hoffman 41, Scozzafava 5, extrapolating from the Siena poll issued late last week -- still, obviously, anybody's race.
Obviously, the question I've posed is rhetorical. If Scozzafava wants Owens to win (or perhaps more accurately, wants Hoffman to lose), why would she have left the race unless she felt that the combined effect of her quitting and her endorsing Owens would be beneficial to him on balance?
Indeed, I think Owens is probably in a better position than he was 48 hours ago. Endorsements don't usually matter very much, but with Scozzafava's exit from the race, you suddenly have as much as 30 percent of the electorate up for grabs and undoubtedly feeling very, very confused. Plus, the endorsement was unexpected (although perhaps it shouldn't have been, since Scozzafava is much closer ideologically to Owens than to Hoffman), which might make it more impactful.
2. What type of electorate will show up?
The reason that I'm not willing to bravely declare Owens the favorite, however, is because turnout is unusual in special elections, and we don't know who is going to show up on Tuesday. If it's Siena's electorate -- an electorate in which voters view Barack Obama favorably by a 59-37 margin -- then I'd say that Owens is indeed the favorite, perhaps as much as a 2:1 favorite. But other pollsters have a different view of the electorate -- Tom Jensen at Public Policy Polling, for instance, finds that NY-23's likely voters have a net negative view of Obama. With that electorate, Hoffman would be favored, perhaps substantially -- and Jensen, indeed, hints that his poll will show a significant lead for Hoffman when it is released tonight.
PPP's polls are "different" in a couple of ways: firstly, they're automated ("robocall") polls, and secondly, they use registered voter lists which they purchase from states or third parties, rather than the random digit dial (RDD) method. PPP did pretty well in 2008 and I have a high opinion of them. This year, in spite of being mainly a Democratic polling firm, they've shown better numbers for Republicans than most other pollsters -- both in NY-23 and elsewhere. They could perfectly well be right and they could perfectly well be wrong -- frankly, they have a lot riding on Tuesday's contests. But the point is, they're not just showing a more favorable result for Hoffman in isolation -- they're showing it as a consequence of the more conservative electorate which they expect to come to the polls on Tuesday.
3. Who should Democrats be rooting for?
If nothing else, Scozzafava's endorsement of Owens raises what had already been fairly high stakes in terms of the national environment. And another bit of conventional wisdom that has developed, articulately stated by Frank Rich and Stu Rothenberg among others, is that Democrats should be rooting for Hoffman because it will embolden conservatives to nominate more conservative, but less electable Republican candidates in other races.
Insofar as that thinking goes, it seems to me to be almost indisputably correct -- a Hoffman win could have implications for the Republican Senate primary in Florida, perhaps the 2012 nomination contest, and other races where Republicans have the choice between more ideologically correct (Marco Rubio, Sarah Palin) and more electable alternatives (Charlie Crist, Mitt Romney).
On the other hand, do Democrats really want to be celebrating if an extreme conservative like Hoffman -- who, by the way, is not an especially good candidate -- is able to win a very middle-of-the-road district like NY-23? Sure, Hoffman would be very vulnerable as an incumbent (which might be a moot point anyway since NY-23 is liable to be redistricted out of existence.) But if a Glenn Beck-ian conservative is able to win a district that shares a frontier with Vermont and Canada, ought that not be at least a little bit worrying for Democrats in terms of the mood of the country?
The best-case scenario for the Democrats would seem to be a very narrow Owens win, which would leave conservatives feeling plenty empowered (and with plenty of people -- notably Scozzafava -- to blame) but would still give Democrats the seat in the Congress and leave them feeling less worried about the upside potential of conservative populism.
The "extreme" conservatives do have a few electoral advantages over the moderates: more capacity to generate high turnouts amongst their base, more differentiation from the establishment, and arguably a "fresher" message (even if it's all in the packaging). If Hoffman does win by some margin, it won't be so clear that these conservatives are in fact less electable than their more moderate Republican brethren, at least in terms of 2010.
11.01.2009
Three Big Questions in NY-23
by Nate Silver @ 4:50 PM...see also endorsements, ny-23
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112 comments
"Owens 44, Hoffman 41, Scozzafava 5"
"Scozzafava's endorsement of Hoffman"
If you can't be bothered to read what you write then why should we?
Yeah, you should probably fix that typo. Scozzafava endorsed Owens, not Hoffman. However, I'm not sure what your problem with "Owens 44, Hoffman 41, Scozzafava 5" is Piddlesworth.
First sentence: "Let me disclaim that the utterly fascinating special election in NY-23 has become nearly impossible to forecast."
That's pretty garbled. Do you mean:
"Let me declaim"
"Let me declare"
"Let me proclaim"
What you *are* saying is that you "deny" that the race is impossible to forecast. Which obviously isn't the case -- you're saying, in the rest of the article, that you *can't* forecast it....
Wow.
Nice hedging from a man who makes a living predicting the political races. No, scratch that. Nice hedging from a man who is so very unique at making a living by skillfully calling races (save perhaps for Mark Blumenthal).
Nate, I'd respectfully add the odd chance of the coin landing on its side in this wacky contest: Scozzafava actually winning despite and perhaps DUE to her "acting responsibly" and dropping out. This is not merely rhetorical; I could see this liberal voting for Didi. Her views are moderate and her behavior is praise-worthy. IMHO.
I am calling this race for Scozzafava. *g*
~ Latte
Per Almanac of americans politics page 1088 following vote totals:
Obama - 133,367
McCain - 119,944
McHugh - 143,029
Oot- 75,871
Round numbers 34K did not vote for House who voted for President. So basing race on Obama's strength starts with the problem that a fair number of his voters didn't think the downballot worth bothering even if they turned out.
Now look at 2004:
Bush - 134,174
Kerry - 123,216
Some of your swing vote regarded W as moderate enough to vote for.
Take the three sets of numbers together and you probably need a Tarot deck to find a viable turnout model.
All these close races and the difficulty in projecting them are attributable to off-year election turnout. It's a shame that Tim Kaine Gov of VA can't even organize the tremendous energy there was in VA in the campaign for a win, never mind ignite the Dems into the massive GOTV drives that could have made all 3 close races, in VA, NJ and NY, winnable for Dems. Many of us are still working to keep voters engaged - witness the immense call-in for the public option just a week ago. Why did Kaine let the energy that was supposed to endure dissipate so badly that we're back to lousy turnout in off-years?
Those of us still involved in OFA are working so hard for the public option, mostly with our own resources. Why can't Kaine handle 3 races - one in his own state - and motivate more OFA activism around more than health care? The Energy bill ignites so much passion among Dems, but it's left to rise or fall in DC only. These 3 races are a barometer for Kaine's leadership abilities - or lack thereof - and not just for the Dem candidates.
One thing not mentioned here - how about all the ballots mailed in before all this drama? If Dede's supporters voted early, both Hoffman and Owens might not have much to gain from her quitting and endorsement. Who tends to vote early, and how might that inform us better as to who's left and what their leanings are?
Nate
As a dyslexic person I have found it useful to use proof readers at time. If your policy is other wise then don't ignore the issue and let us know by declaring this a personal blog. If it's professional then let the posts be delayed for the 12 hours that an editor takes - if other wise then declare so.
Personally I don't give a flying horses rear end wither way cause I can't see the typo's myself.
Eric Wolf
Storyteller
Nate, ignore the nitpicking. It is pretty obvious what you are saying.
I think one thing to remember in this race is the BACKLASH from voters that feel that Hoffman is a carpetbagger. That is something you did not mention but could be the deciding factor in this race. I also agree that Dems should not be cheering for a lousy candidate like Hoffman to win, a narrow win by Owens sounds great.
Boy, what a bunch of irritable pedants we have here. Don't you have some term papers to paint red somewhere? It's a Sunday afternoon blog post, people, not the latest printing of the OED.
All that aside, this is a tough race to call, but I agree with Silver's final assessment. A narrow Owens win would be optimal, but however one looks at it, this is good news for the Democratic Party. Let them weed every moderate out of the Republican party.
I would guess that the difference in NY-23’s 2008 party-line vote (i.e. GOP incumbent McHugh got 65% of the vote vs. McCain getting only 47%) was not due to distaste for McCain but dread and horror over the prospect of Sarah Palin anywhere near the corridors of power. Palin wrecked the McCain campaign, and now that she has come out so strongly in support of Hoffman I’m sure his campaign sees it as, at best, a mixed blessing.
I think it’s probably too close to the election to get any kind of decent or reliable polling on NY-23—there will be all kinds of “likely voter” models which will return a wild array of outcomes, so we’ll probably just have to wait and see.
I love these barnburner elections, no matter how they come out.
"A Perfect Storm of Uncertainty"...that's the perfect name for the debut album of my band, Hillary Clinton and the Democrats. Thanks Nate!
Just wondering…
If there’s no Republican in a race, such as NY-23 now, how will Rasmussen know how to skew his results?
I hope he’s not exploding somewhere. He’s at least good for laughs.
I guess Nate reads his editor's comments. ;-)
I love Nate!! I didn't believe him about how Obama was going to win, but he wound up being right. Cut him some slack.
Pragmatus: The NRCC endorsed Hoffman after Scozzafava dropped out. There isn't much time for Rasmussen to get a poll out anyways.
Off-topic post alert…
Miss Piggy speaks, creating yet more bad blood against the GOP.
Imagine using our military dead to heap scorn on a political opponent. Limbaugh continues to plumb new depths of the meaning of “scumbag”.
bpberryWRC…
I know. My post was tongue-in-cheek.
I think it's pretty certain now that Owens will get more of Scozzafava's voters than Hoffman, the question is if Hoffman's momentum and the excitement among his supporters is unstoppable or not. Apart from that, I agree with Nate who badly needs more proofreading.
These 2009 elections are quite interesting for polling in general, because I'm really interested in seeing the activity among democrats post-Obama. The special election in NY-22 saw unusually high turnout in a special election, which usually helps the Democrats. Some pollsters are more pessimistic about democratic enthusiasm than others, especially PPP and Survey USA. If Hoffman wins by more than 5 pts the Democrats should start worrying. If the Democrats also lose New Jersey they should be REALLY worrying, because that would mean that they can't turn out the base effectively, foreshadowing a world of troubles for Senators Reid, Dodd, Bennett and candidate Giannoulias.
The Conservative Candidate will win in a walk. The GOP Candidate, Schivazza, was a machine pick and carries no influence with the voters. Only vindictiveness could have inspired her to endorse the Donkey in the race.
Enthusiasm for the Dems and Obama peaked about a year ago and has been declining steadily ever since. The drop has been especially sharp since Obama came out against Cops and became indentified with Death Panels. Sharply downhill from there, in fact.
All the enthusiasm is on the anti-Washington/Anti Obama-Pelosi-Reid side.
All this prognostication of Nate's is a waste of time when you can be watching #4s return to Lambeau. The NY Congressional race ended today when the Schivazzz dropped out of the race.
I have been watching FB all afternoon, has Dagett pulled out in NJ? Has his support finally been determined to be illusory?
And what will you all say Wednesday night when the Polls close in NJ at Six and Christie is declared the winner at 630? LOL Corzine minus five at least!
petekent01 (on twitter)
PPP(D) has it right. Jensen and Rick Shaftan are on the same page.
Siena didn't even bother releasing its D/R/I split. Research 2K is still using 39/34 D/R split in Virginia, an unreasonable split this November and way too favorable to Deeds. Its 42/32 R/D split in NY-23 is likely far too favorable to the Democrats as well.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/conservative-pollster-puts-hoffman-ahead-in-ny-23.php
Pete Kent said…
“Spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin—spin”
@ PeteKent: What planet are you from? Even Republicans admit the "death panels" bs just that--BS!
In reference to Nate's and Rich's opinion that dems s/b rooting for Hoffman, I can't because: 1. I just can't root for a conservative. 2. The t.v. talking heads will crow endlessly about how this is a referendum against the Obama admin and his presidency is in trouble. If the pundits say anything enough times--even if it's not true--people start to believe it's true (case in point: PeteKent with his "death panels").
Fox News reported a few minutes ago (Major Garrett) that the WH is privately conceding that the Dems have lost NY 23. (Fox akso implied the likelihood of a major defeat og Corzine -- as importantly MN is pulling away from GB with 10 mins to play)
My only fear is that this is just disinformation and spin from what has turned out to be the least transparent and most Machieavellian White House since Nixon's.
Those of you who support Obama: how do you live with yourself and not regret the Stalinist impulses of the incumbent in the WH?
petekent01 (on twitter)
PK has managed to create an alternate universe for himself in order to endure.
As a Canadian visitor to this great blog I find reading Peter Kent very depressing. Just way too many Americans are appalingly ignorant.
From my view the biggest party in America is the Independent party. The Democrats are second and the Republicans are a distant third. However I dare say the MAJORITY of the Independents lean Trickle Down and Deregulate.
I expect the clearly bizarre and frankly disgusting Conservative candidate to win in a landslide.
Personally - I think America is finished on so many levels I see almost no hope for its future. Fortunately, you have your 11 Nuclear Carrier Battle Groups sailing the oceans and keeping shipping lanes safe from Pirates - oh yeah - total fail there too.
...Scozzafava was praised by the likes of Sarah Palin, who has endorsed Hoffman, for acting "selflessly"... I have argued that this thinking is superficial.
Sarah Palin thinking superficially?! Nooooooo! Say it ain't so, Nate!
On October 18, 2008 PeteKent said:
"...I think the people are coming to regard Obama as well-intended, but wrong-headed...
McCain is on his horse. Leading the charge.
Obama will be routed from the field!"
'nuff said 'bout PeteKent's predictive abilities.
To Nasty Canadian Man: Go away! Obama is our President now and you should be predicting the new Zenith of America, not its demise. Please get with the program.
As for "Death Panels" as the Obama WH teaches us on a daily basis, the truth means little as long as the lie is told skillfully and is believed.
Like it or not, thanks to Sarah Palin the meme has taken hold that ObamaCare means rationing, privation, scarcity and death for the 75% or so of Americans who are adequately covered today. It is unfortunate that President Obama turned out to be as poor a policy communicator as he is a very good personal promoter.
How ironic that the signature accomplishment of the Left -- Government Healthcare -- could be derailed by a couple of FaceBook entries by an ignorant, inexperienced woman from Alaska who could not even tell Katie Couric what periodicals she reads.
You've come a long way, baby!
On Election Day November 2009 it will feel to many that we are finally beginning the task or rescuing the nation from a man who would turn it to Socialism and away from 200 plus years of freedoms based on personal liberty and limited government. That he tried to do this to us out of personal hubris and an overweening sense of self-importance is a terrible indictment of the man, as well as those who support him and those who refuse to acknowledge the extent of his malevolent designs -- and those who would tolerate his Stalinist ways simply to achieve a long sought policy victory that we all know the people do not want.
petekent01 (on twitter)
"Those of you who support Obama: how do you live with yourself and not regret the Stalinist impulses of the incumbent in the WH?"
the lowest form of political discourse is demonizing your opponent, especially with a label that contains an "-ism". that may sound like the means and the ends of modern politics, but it does not have to be.
http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2009/11/ny-23.html
We find, and were finding even before the Scozzafava dropout, that Hoffman has a much bigger lead with Republicans than those polls were showing. Research 2000 had Hoffman leading 41-34 with GOP voters. Siena had it at 50-29. We find it at 66-17 so far.
-We are anticipating a much more GOP friendly electorate than the other two polls. Siena found Obama's favorability in the district at 59%. Research 2000 had it at 50%. So far we find Obama's approval rating with likely voters at 39%. We're finding an electorate that voted 50-43 for John McCain in comparison to last fall's narrow Obama victory in the district. That drop off in Democratic voters is consistent with what we're finding in much of our 2009 polling but obviously we won't know if we were right or not until Tuesday.
Pete, if Obama was a Stalinist, you and the rest of the Fatass Brigade would already be dead.
I "will acknowledge the extent of his malevolent designs" when he's dragging your pasty, paranoid carcass into the gulag.
And if they day ever comes, I promise I will feel bad for at least a few minutes.
funny how the CONs are trying to spin NY-23 as a 'LOSS" for the DEMs
how can this be a loss when it is now & has always been a GOP seat ??? plus it is not a regularly scheduled election, so the victor will be a seat-warmer until 2010
the underdog DEM could have 'WON' only if the stars aligned properly.
the GOP can't WIN this seat [since they already have it on their side of the aisle] - logic says all they can do is possibly LOSE a seat or 'hold'
GOP victory in NY-23 = no change, sorry but that is true
now NJ gov would be a WIN granted for the GOP, and VA gov will be a WIN - but the GOP in VA has always been in the lead there & had historical trends on his side, so what's the big dillio ???
however IF Corzine holds on, well then I would say that Christie & the GOP blew a relative easy opportunity for a pickup WIN
now that would be news, even though I would not call that a WIN for the DEMs either [at best a hold]
just sayin'...
same old, same old
I'm still waiting for a conservative (PK is a hilarious sideshow and can not be taken at face value) to explain to me how the R dropping out and endorsing the D is in any way good for the totality of the GOP. Maybe it's good for Hoffman, because maybe it presents him with a clearer path to election, but good for the whole party? Explain please.
I will listen to all kinds of reasons, but they have to have some semblance of connection to reality. Because I can see a few ways this race hurts the GOP.
Brilliant insight from Nate (as usual.)
He's the only analyst who's nailed the most important factor in this scenario... Dede's motivation.
In the light of her endorsement of Owens, we can assume she harbors no good will towards Hoffman, so she must have reasoned that her withdrawal from the race would benefit the Dem. We can also assume she knows her own district better than we do.
I do disagree, however, on the upside of an Owens win. I want Hoffman to win BIG, like double digits. I want the wingnuts to be so wildly emboldened that they will even ramp up the ongoing purge of moderates from their party. I want them out in the streets, hanging Snowe and Collins in effigy. Most of all (please, please, gods and goddesses!....) I want them to nominate Pailn for 2012.
Oh, what fun our politics will be!!! Why... I feel so giddy at the prospect, I almost want to hug ol' Pete Kent.
On second thought... no.
Ewww.
JOHN
well, I will take a crack at answering for them...
let's see, it woulod go something like, "if you cannot see how a Hoffman victory purifies the GOP and proves a rising tidal wave of REAL AMERICANS will soon sweep the socialists out of power all across this center-right country that is based upon one nation under God & Guns - then you are an unpatriotic marxist terrorist that we will make sure is deported when Sarah is crowned as our Queen in 2012"...
and did you see how rude PK was to our nice canadian visitor above ? all the guy did was share his views, which I may not entirely agree with but I certainly appreciate hearing how we are perceived by the rest of the world... still lots of fences to mend around the globe after 8 years & 2 Bush/Cheney wars... guess that PK 'ugly american' stereotypical self-centered response explains why Obama got that Nobel peace prize
how sad & pathetic & delusional it must be to live with blinders on like PK & ____________.
Oh wow... it's happening already.
Current giddy, triumphal headline under "Breaking News" over in Happy Freeperville:
We Need TOTAL WAR Against The RINO'S: Graham, Snowe, Collins, Hatch, Bennett, McMahon, MCCAIN!
November 1, 2009 4:29:34 PM · by Javeth · 82 replies · 1,717+ views
I think I'm going to make some popcorn. This is entertaining.
greatone98040…
You write as if you do polling. What’s your outfit?
Just curious, but does the ‘98040’ in your ID stand for a zip code? If so you’re not far from Seattle.
FILISTRO
I agree about how a Hoffman victory could serve to hurt the GOP much more than an Owens win would help the DEMs.
First, I would love to see Hoffman [a poor candidate] end up on the talk shows & anticipate Bachmanesque video moments to enjoy. I mean, first he needs to example why a carpet-bagger should have been elected.
Then, have you seen his stand on Immigration ??? He favors giving illegals a route to citizenship !!! BAD CON ! let Tancredo & those wackjobs set him straight...
and since this district will probably not even exist when redistricting kicks in after 2010, who cares ???
plus it will empower the CONs here in FL to bleed the GOP & dump Crist which could allow the DEM to win a GOP senate seat that should be a lock for the GOP in 2010.
side benefit would be to force all the Bush's [inc Jeb] to back either the establishment candidates or the CONs - WIN for the DEMs...
look at TX where Perry/Hutchison knock-down, drag-out fight might drag 'em down more than a few notches... or get TX to secede...lol
GO HOFFMAN !!! [sorry Owens]
WV -flycon [too funnie]
This lifelong Democrat roots for Democrats. Bad habit, huh? Seriously, if Owens wins it will not stop the wingnuts from being wingnuts. They'll come up with a laundry list of excuses and keep doing their thing.
But it'll sure make 'em look like fools and losers with everyone else, and will especially make the shift-in-the-wind Republicans like Steele and Gingrich, et al, look like the unprincipled bastards they've always been.
Generally speaking, root for the Democrat. Okay, if the "Democrat" is Joe Lieberman or someone worse, maybe not. But those are rare cases. Owens is a Democrat, and deserves the enthusiastic support of anyone who calls themself a Democrat.
True Blue...
Well, generally speaking you're right, of course.
But in the case of NY-23 (for all the excellent reasons DCM has already pointed out) I'd say rooting for the Conservative is STRATEGERY.
For those interested, here is the Freeper link with all the vitriol against any moderation in the GOP.
All I can say is, Go Freeptards, go!
"We Need TOTAL WAR Against The RINO'S: Graham, Snowe, Collins, Hatch, Bennett, McMahon, MCCAIN!"
I know this is Some Guy On A Website, but Orrin Hatch a RINO? Jeebus.
Anyway, I agree with TrueBlue -- the wingnuts won't stop doing what they do just because of one lost election. It's not like they learned from the Steve Pearce/Jim Gilmore fiascos.
What is the point of this site if Nate is unwilling to make picks anymore in close elections?
This one and NJ can be picked.
This one is easy. If anyone thinks that a bunch of Repiblicans are going to make the effort to go the the polls in an off-year to vote for for a Democrat with this national mood they need their head checked.
The hardcore Scozzafava fans will vote for her anyway.
Owens cannot break the high 30s even with a generous sample frame.
Hoffman is not an extremist, he is just a Conservative in GOP district. He would have been the nominee had their been a primary.
Hoffman will win by double digits most likely.
Nate's dismissal of the PPP poll is another in a distrurbing string of mulligans for Nate.
He adores the deeply flawed R2000 polls and refuses to examine them critically.
He dismissed the CFG poll because he did NLT like the result. The poll was vindicated by the Siena poll and even his own patsy R2000 pollster.
PPP has it nailed.
DCM in FL said...
the GOP can't WIN this seat [since they already have it on their side of the aisle]
~~~~~~~~~~
Actually, they can't win this seat because currently there is (no) Rep running in NY-23! ;) So having already lost the seat to either a total wingnut or a Dem, in essence they have one less seat and if Hoffman wins, they have (1) more Joe Wilson er Michele Bachmann er Marsha Blackburn er Eric Cantor er total bat shit crazy winger to represent their dwindlin' sheep!
It's all good.
Again, how did the Dems get sooo damn lucky!
When your opponents are imploding, get the hell out of the way ...
Here’s a more moderate take on what’s happening in the GOP.
Incredible. It’s like watching a nuclear meltdown.
Pete: "The GOP Candidate, Schivazza, was a machine pick and carries no influence with the voters."
Really? Are you from here?
I am. This is my district. Dede Scozzafava has been our Assemblywoman for a long time, and is a well liked native. She has a lot of supporters who are rightly pissed at her being thrown under the bus. I'm calling this Owens in a squeaker with about 75% certainty, and Dede will be saying I Told You So, because had the GOP thrown their support behind her, she would've won. This district has been held by the GOP since time immemorial. But I don't think there are enough wingnuts to carry the day for Hoffman. He scares a lot of people around here.
DCM-
I don't need a wingnut's "explanation." I need a reasonable Republican's rational discussion of how this specific election, no matter the result, helps the party. Because I can't really find a good outcome for those poor guys.
JOHN
good luck finding "a reasonable Republican's rational discussion" on 538...
that is like looking for sasquatch or a unicorn most of the time.
I have heard tales of such a creature - but where ?
last summer there were a couple that dropped by from time to time - but they got targeted by the hard-core CON fanatics & driven away.
Perhaps oneis still lurking...
'Happy GOPer' might be a candidate
it is too bad, but imho there are too many from the right like MIKE & PK & GROG who are just here to insult BHO & repeat neo-CON talking points ad nauseum
MidPointMan said...
Nate's dismissal of the PPP poll...
Nate did no such thing.
-- -- --
What may be more important here is how much dramatic movement could be happening from day to day. Nate's dismissal of the PPP poll This is a whole lot of late minute drama, a lot more than you usually see in elections. So just being a day or two newer should be given a lot more weight to a poll than normal.
DCM -
Do you know the difference between a "neo-con" and a mainline conservative?
I am not sure you do.
Neo-conservatives tend to be foreign policy hawks but are more socially moderate if not even liberal in some cases.
Go look up the real meaning of the term. Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly are about as far from neo-conservatives as you can get. Pat Buchanan falls into that boat as well.
Neo-conservatives are big-government conservatives and the tea-partiers despise them.
Scozzafava would be the neo-conservative candidate in this race.
The fiscal consevative/libertarian wing if the GOP is rebelling to take back control of the party.
That is what this is all about.
DCM-
Real Joe or VA Conservative would do fine in a pinch. Or fellows like them.
and suddenly, the CONs are big fans of PPP... lol
seriously, these are excerpts from PPP's over-all election analysis in October:
'Few voters changing sides from 2008'
"I've gotten some right wing tirades because I told The Hill for a story yesterday that there were very few people who voted Democratic last year changing sides and that the problem for the party this year was largely one of complacency and comparative motivation.
Republicans are winning these races not because they're winning anyone over, but because they're planning to vote at a much higher rate than Democrats this year.
The truth is if the same set of voters who showed up in 2008 showed up next month Creigh Deeds and Jon Corzine would both win. But of course that's not going to happen.
This fact doesn't make the potential GOP victories any less valid, and I think they may well be a harbinger of next year's elections.
But they say very little about 2012 because if Barack Obama was at the top of the ballot Democrats wouldn't be having these turnout issues."
that holds especially true in NY-23, as Nate has projected for turnout
so they are left to LOUDLY spin 'em endlessly for a tempest in the proverbial teapot, grasping at straw[men], all the usual imho...
@Dwight
1. Nate said this is too close to call.
2. The PPP poll uses a more stringent methodology
3. PPP polls have been quite accurate, as Nate admits
4. The PPP poll is the most recent poll available
5. The PPP poll had Hoffman by 19 points
6. Nate said he can imagine Owens winning by double digits.
It sure seems like he dismissed the poll out of hand.
It will be hilarious if Hoffman wins by 12 points and Nate could not make a call on it.
That what this site is for, right?
Calling Virginia is easy. Pick a hard race...or admit you know as much as the next guy--which hardly justifies a fancy blog.
@Hayford: Stop being a pompous ass. Nate's use of "declaim" was exactly correct in that sentence. Look up the meaning.
To declaim is to declare, to shout out, to announce boldly....
The Siena poll is over counting Dems, perhaps substantially.
When reviewing the linked internals, I was wondering how Hooffman could be leading among Republicans and Indis and pulling in more Dem than Owens is GOP in a district with 45% GOP and 27% Dem.
If the GOP, Dems and Indis all show up at equal rates in the Siena poll, Hoffman (37.48%) should be leading Owens (33.47) by four points.
The conservative GOP and indis are far more fired up in national polling than liberal Dems, thus Hoffman probably should have a high single digit lead in the Siena poll.
The only way Owens could have a one point lead is if Siena substantially over counted Dems and liberal Indis.
The PPP results indicate that Hoffman continued to accumulate support over the past few days. Hoffman will win this in a walk.
MPM
that is too funny, you trying to define what a NEO-CON means...
first 'neo' means anything "new'
and 'con' is shorthand for 'conservative'
while YOU are trying to disavow being associated with the war-mongerers, it is disingenious to attempt to say that militarism is NOT a base principle of the current crop of 'freepers' including Billo & Beck & Rush & Palin et al
but Neo-Cons are also typically NOT moderate socially - comeon that is laffable...
next you will try to define what a Progressive is by your skewed world-view
the 'new' CON party [including Palin] is what I call neo-CON
deal with it cuz it is truthy
how about that Hoffman fellow - he 'fails' the test on immigration, so why does that NOT disqualify him ???
thought so - purity & principle only goes so far for you neo-cons [that is small ones]
social BIGOTRY & denial of rights [anti-gay, anti-choice] are staples of the new breed of NEO-CONS imho as much as gun rights & militarism
GO HOFFMAN !!! lol
The problem with an Owens win is that Owens will have won. The last thing Dems need is another Vichy Dem caucusing with the Blue Dogs and undermining progressive legislation from within.
GO HOFFMAN!
Nate:
The Rothenberg and Rich arguments that Dems should hope for a Hoffman win to encourage the GOP to nominate conservatives across the country to duplicate NY-23 is the most counter intuitive spin I can imagine.
There is a conservative wave building, partially made up of folks who have not voted in the past when the only choices were center left candidates. The best way to mitigate this wave is to encourage the GOP to run more center-left candidates so these reemerging Perot conservatives stay home again as they did in 2006 and 2008. Feeding this conservative wave by encouraging the GOP to run conservatives is suicide for Dems.
Conversely, if Owens wins, the Dems can far more convincingly argue to their GOP counterparts that running conservatives will only lose what should be safe GOP districts and dispirit the conservative rebellion.
Then again, if hopes were money, the Dems would be rich. Owens best shot was an effective Scozza campaign splitting the GOP vote. That distant hope is now gone. Hoffman will win this race easily and the conservative rebellion will go viral in the GOP.
Actually, Mike is right about neo-conservatism. It shouldn't be a synonym for uber-conservatism, which is what we find over in Happy Freeperville.
(Leo Strauss is generally recognized as the father of modern neoconservative philosophy, though IMO this is arguable.)
Neo-cons are quite socially liberal and don't much worry about big government, either, if it helps to foster their main goals which are:
1.) American exceptionalism and global power
2.) Exporting democracy to the world... through force if necessary
3.) Maintaining a constant state of war in order to keep the nation strong, prosperous and patriotic
4.) Using religion (quite cynically and pragmatically) to pacify and motivate the public
and
5.) The philosophical concept of the "noble lie" which holds that it is not possible for a politician to be both truthful and effective... and effectiveness is more important.
I think Bill Kristol is probably the best living, breathing example of an ideologically pure neoconservative.
Sorry... that should have been MidPointMan who was right about the neocons.
MidPointMan said...
It sure seems like he dismissed the poll out of hand.
You couldn't read your way out of a wet paper bag. You are total failure at Teh Math. Is there anything you are competent in? :P
BDP
PPP debunks you 'blue wave' theory which you keep posting over & over wishing it was true [it is not]
again from the PPP website analysis:
"Republicans are winning these races not because they're winning anyone over, but because they're planning to vote at a much higher rate than Democrats this year."
sad but true
There is a conservative wave building
This much is entirely true. Within the Republican Party, the right-wingers are taking over...purging the party of all moderates. Center-right fiscally and center-left socially, I was labelled a R-I-N-O, derided and assaulted (by own family members no less) to either purify into a 'real conservative' or 'get the f^@& out!'.
...I guess I'm a Blue Dog now, though many Democrats clearly don't want me anymore near their party either. Whats a moderate to do these days when neither wing wants your vote?
DCM -
Here is a generally accepted definition. It is on Wikipedia and numerous other places.
"Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, and which supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries. In economics, unlike traditionalist conservatives, neoconservatives are generally comfortable with a welfare state; and, while rhetorically supportive of free markets, they are willing to interfere for overriding social purposes."
My point is that you cannot use NEOCON and conservative interchangeably. If you do it proves you do not know what is really going on.
I do not see Beck or anyone else calling for war in Pakistan. Obama is doing that.
Traditional conservatives are pro-military, they just do not advocate using it to spread democracy by force. Like Reagan, they see it as a deterrent for self-defense.
Reagan's only use of boots on the ground was in Grenada. Clinton and the Bushes combined sent armed troops into about 12 countries: Haiti, Bosnia, Serbia, Panama, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan...the list goes on.
There is a difference.
The key fight is on the domestic policy differences, however. Fiscal conservatives want the party back from the neocons.
filistro said...
4.) Using religion (quite cynically and pragmatically) to pacify and motivate the public
That's what really throws people, I think. They have some liberal social views but they don't really care about them coming to fruition on scale. These aren't really on their agenda for society as a whole so they are quickly thrown under the bus if they get in the way.
For example Dick Cheny is likely fine with his daughter being gay. But it didn't suit his purposes to say that...until it did to give a tease to court gay supporters...and then she wasn't gay again. ((A masterful Machiavellian political play.)) Because he doesn't give a rat's ass about social standing and acceptance of gay people in general.
Count me as someone who doesn't want Hoffman to win. His victory will only embolden the wingnuts. Remember, they're only wingnuts as long as they're marginal. If they start showing stregnth, people may begin to believe they're only "right of center."
With Owens, we get an extra vote.
I'm not a fan of the "lose to win" strategy. Usually it just mean your team loses.
This is the best Dwight can muster. Sad. He does not even put in token effort.
Hint: When questioning the competence of someone else, avoid typos and spelling errors. We all make them (I use an Iphone a lot and autocorrect is dodgy) but it just steals the oxygen from your argument.
-----
You couldn't read your way out of a wet paper bag. You are total failure at Teh Math. Is there anything you are competent in? :P
MidPointMan said...
I do not see Beck or anyone else calling for war in Pakistan. Obama is doing that.
However Obama is not looking to "export democracy" to Afganistan. I'm trying to remember if it was Beck himself, or it was someone else at Fox, that was even complaining that with the change from Bush to Obama there wasn't any talk anymore about emphasising Afganistan becoming a democracy.
Because, well, that ISN'T his goal there. Nor really should it be. We [as in about 2 dozen countries directly with troops and several more with civilians or indirect support] are there to neuter Al Queda, ultimately to make it small enough to drag into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.
"With Owens, we get an extra vote."
Do we? I haven't made a study of this guy and am largely going by Kos, but hasn't committed to caucusing with the Blue Dogs? Isn't he on record as being opposed to marriage equality? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but a strategy that made sense when we needed a majority to vote for Nancy Pelosi as Speaker, no longer makes sense today.
How many Blue Dogs are going to vote against Health Care Reform? At least one is on record as saying that he regrets his vote for Pelosi and won't vote for her again. These guys are far more harmful to the Democratic Party agenda because they lend credibility to Republican obstructionism.
I'd like to partially apologize for my first post. I had assumed that you were projecting what was most likely to happen in the election, which is what most people come here to see, and that you had somehow missed 10% of the voting population, making your projection as presented meaningless. Now I see that you are actually projecting what a contemporary poll of the election might say... which begs the question, why are you projecting what a poll of an election is expected to say when you could project the election itself? We got from the rest of it that there's a lot of uncertainty and shifting that can still happen, so just say 49-46-5 +/- 10. I guess you'll do that tomorrow anyway...
DCM -
Neo-cons not socially moderate?
1. GWB increased federal education spending (on a % basis) more than Obama plans to.
2. He expanded Medicare more than any President since it started.
3. He exploded federal spending.
4. He increased the size and reach of government.
5. He pushed Clinton's affordable housing policies to the breaking point
Most of this would qualify him as a liberal if not for his views on abortion, guns and gay rights.
That makes him a big government conservative.
Glenn Beck and O'Reilly rip on Bush regularly for all if the above.
Fiscal conservatives care about the exact opposite things. They want small government, and generally want the Federal Gov't to stay out of thorny social issues better left to states and local governments to sort out.
EmonOkari said...
Whats a moderate to do these days
~~~~~~~~~~
Become an independent as I did in 1972 and hold your nose while voting for the lesser of (2) evils as per usual ...
The Dem/Rep control of the whole political hierarchy corrupts the system from within, hence, ergo, therefore America gets what it deserves ie pussyfootin' foot soldiers who are easily influenced by corporate lobby money, which of course, are the real shakers and movers who control everything in Washington. Along w/various political think tanks ~ talk about an oxymoron.
Again, no charge for my keen grasp of the obvious! ;)
btw, did I mention America gets what it deserves and I love the word pussyfootin' :) George Wallace used to say he didn't cotton to no pussyfooters lol as you could say many things about Wallace, but he had no trouble expressing his opinion on an issue, eh ... I digress.
DCM in FL said...
BDP, PPP debunks you 'blue wave' theory which you keep posting over & over wishing it was true [it is not] again from the PPP website analysis:
"Republicans are winning these races not because they're winning anyone over, but because they're planning to vote at a much higher rate than Democrats this year."
I have been speaking about a conservative wave, not a 'blue wave,' whatever that might be. Once again, this is a rebellion of both GOP and Indi conservatives, a substantial portion of which do not regularly vote like the Perot movement back in 1992. This is not some great conversion of liberals to conservatism, but rather the return in force of the conservative plurality to the polls. Thus, the PPP findings conform with my theory rather nicely.
@MidPointMan
"[PPP] could perfectly well be right and they could perfectly well be wrong..."
You, on the otherhand, are perfectly desperate to stoop to quibbling over a typo. I'll take that as game, set, and match. Thank you and don't come again.
EmonOkari said...
BD: There is a conservative wave building.
This much is entirely true. Within the Republican Party, the right-wingers are taking over...purging the party of all moderates. Center-right fiscally and center-left socially, I was labelled a R-I-N-O, derided and assaulted (by own family members no less) to either purify into a 'real conservative' or 'get the f^@& out!'....I guess I'm a Blue Dog now, though many Democrats clearly don't want me anymore near their party either. Whats a moderate to do these days when neither wing wants your vote?
How do you define "Center-right fiscally?"
If you believe in less government power over our lives, lower taxes, far lower spending and balanced budgets, you are a conservative without the modifiers and your family is being too hard on you. Come join the Tea Party rebellion.
On the other hand, if you support higher taxes, spending and borrowing as well as any of the Dem government health insurance bills and/or cap and tax, you are somewhere between left and far left rather than "center right." As a conservative, my advice to you is to stay home on election day because the Dems do not appreciate you.
;^)
Juris said...
@Hayford: Stop being a pompous ass. Nate's use of "declaim" was exactly correct in that sentence. Look up the meaning.
To declaim is to declare, to shout out, to announce boldly....
November 1, 2009 9:57 PM
He changed it, Imbecile -- when he first wrote it, he said "disclaim". After he read my comment he, or someone, changed it to "declaim", as, if you read my comment, is one of my suggestions. Geez, you must be a Wikipedia cretin....
Hoffman wins in NY 23 and Christie wins in NJ (by at least 3 points).
Nate -- you are the first person born after 1950 I have ever seen use the word "especial."
Rooting for Hoffman is simply suicidal. You'll end up having these wingnuts taking over the White House again in a few years (remember how Dems were rooting for Reagan in the 1980 primaries?)
Never underestimate people's stupidity.
When you analyze polls, it's interesting. When you give political assertions or endorse the views of a partisan columnist, I question your intellectual honesty.
You say Rich's view that a conservative win could embolden other more conservative candidates' chances and thereby hurt the GOP is "(almost) indisputably correct." Your only fear is that it might make Democrats worry about the mood of the country (and thereby behave unnecessarily moderate?).
You're basing this assertion on no facts or polls, just your gut feeling. And as others have pointed out, it seems that you don't want to believe the PPP poll.
I certainly don't know who is going to win. But I do dispute your almost indisputably correct assertion. When the Democrats are represented by the likes of Pelosi, I don't think having a few more "extreme" conservative candidates in Congress will hurt the GOP's chances.
JOE
exactly how is that intellectually dishonest ?
Nate expressed an opinion [or an assertion as you say].
this is his site, so he can opine all he wants honestly.
now IF Nate was making up #'s and calling it data like Zogby or even Scott Rasmussen who push-polls & has a hidden partisan agenda despite massaging the data to favor his pet causes [Party ID #'s , questions asked like "how much do you hate what Obama is doing to this once great country" [OK, hyberole but not far off]
and such. now THAT is intellectually dishonest, as in GROG who insists that the Heritage Foundation is the source for all that is true & believable [when he is confronted with the stark reality that it is NOT honest but rather massaged data].
don't like Nate's perspectives ? go elsewhere. Nate has never said this site is ONLY polling data - that is the basis upon which he then analyzes & offers his insightful opinions as well...
and remember - Nate started this forum as a result of his KOS posts, so his personal perspectives are well known & fully disclosed
are your own intentions to be impartial or partisan ? hhhmmm...
"Rooting for Hoffman is simply suicidal."
Well, voting for Hoffman might be suicidal but rooting for him has no real-world effect whatsoever. In any case, I simply disagree with you. I don't think Owens is a good candidate and I think the Democratic Party is better off without him.
Time will tell.
Note to self:
Come back and read this thread in two years.
-Me
I say it again -- What the Conservative Party is doing is not new. They have run races like this one for years. Often what they succeed in doing is in getting the Democrat elected, and this causes Republicans running in subsequent years to move to the right so as not to lose again. I cannot recall a parallel to this election, where it appears that the Conservative may win over both a Dem and a Rep.
As a strategy to force their ideology upon the Republican Party, it is VERY successful. But now that the nation has seen what happens when ideological conservatives are allowed to run the country for eight years, all it succeeds in doing is painting the Reps further into a corner. The New York Dem-Rep split in the 108th Congress was 19-10; in the 111th (the current one) it's 26-3, and if Hoffman loses that will be 27-2. That's exactly the kind of result which those Democrats who are rooting for Hoffman to win are anticipating in 2010 in other states.
However, if Owens actually WINS, the lesson will be all the more powerful, IMO. I used to live in what was then NY-25. When I moved there in 1983, I was advised to register Republican if I wanted my building permits approved. My Congressman was one of the most conservative in the country. The district had voted against FDR four times by large margins, AND FDR LIVED THERE.
This same district has now elected Democrats to the last two Congresses and went for Obama in 2008. If Owens was to win, it would mean -- to me anyhow -- that yet another upstate New York rural area has gotten fed up with hard right Kool-Aid.
IF Hoffman does win, then I feel that the GOP will be more inclined to run hard-core CONs in the 2010 swing districts nationwide.
That would be the best chance for my own new DEM rep [Kosmas] to get re-elected. I worked hard for her & BHO on the ground here. I voted for a progressive, but she apparently thinks she is 'safer' as a blue-dawg lite instead.
So I will NOT work for her re-election in 2010 [even though she is a local neighbor & a DEM] unless she grows a back-bone & helps push through real HCR & more.
We wanted to dump the GOP [Feeney] and were wildly successful in 2008. This is a swing distrcit in central FL - and the local GOP are searching for the right candidate to take the seat back in 2010.
They even floated Lou Holtz for a few weeks earlier this year - but he passed... her best hope is a hard CON rather than a moderate or a personality like Holtz [who would cream her imho].
In 2010 I would prefer Grayson, but he is in the adjoining district. Alan may be a bit 'wacky' but he is out there fighting back on HCR at least.
but a GOP-lite candidate does nothing to enthuse me to work for her again - although I would not vote against her...
Hoffman winning may make the road to victory easier for a good DEM candidate [better than Owens hopefully] in NY-23 & elsewhere around the country imho
@Just John
Just waiting a year and a week could be interesting enough if Club for Growth decides to scale things up considerably. They've got Rush fully on board. They've got Palin, and to a lesser extent "Paw-Paw", with lots of time on her hands (outside of book signing, apparently) and eager to earn IOUs.
CfG spent maybe $500,000, including the faux Dede ad, on this to make a candidate nearly whole cloth. Yes, it's in a cheaper market, and taking on a project like primary defeat of Crist would cost a LOT more. They've been biting around the edges and the wily Specter has for now ducked their telegraphed 2010 direct assult on him. But it's hard to think of a time more ripe for them to make their grab at the ring and go bigtime.
P.S. As much as many here are cheering "oh yeah, implosion!" I'm going to be a little more cautious. Wierd things happen when people get on a roll. If they can manage to scale up their funding and parachuting in select candidates it could get really, really wierd out there. Certainly trying to find a GOP member in Congress that will vote aye on any Whitehouse or Democratic initiated bill is likely to get even harder than it has been.
Dwight-
Oh yeah, I'm firmly convinced that putting more wingnuts in office is not the answer right now. So Hoffman needs to lose. If it's in Norm Coleman style, by 13 votes after three recounts, all the better.
But in the event that Congress, come January 2011, includes 20 or 30 members of something like the "Conservative Party," we could be on the cusp of something terribly exciting: the end of two-party rule. Which would be a good thing for the country. The sooner we get to four or five major parties, the better off we'll be.
That's why this race will be a good one to look back on - is it, hyperbolically speaking, about to help launch a new era in America politics?
That's why this race will be a good one to look back on - is it, hyperbolically speaking, about to help launch a new era in America politics?
It'll be tough, there are so many things in the US system that push it towards 2-party. Parties come and go but always, in the end, there are two. The master and the apprenti...oh wait, nevermind. ;)
Well the last time the GOP split, in a different [populous] way, it didn't stick. The big shake-up before that was the death of the Whigs and the birth of the GOP. It wouldn't surprise me if something like the later happened this time, eventually. At the least there is going to have to be a serious realignment. Like in the time of the death of the Whigs there is another big economic evolution happening, this time from industrial to information.
Interesting times.
No mention of Hoffman's momentum. That's an important factor.
If you believe in less government power over our lives, lower taxes, far lower spending and balanced budgets, you are a conservative without the modifiers and your family is being too hard on you. Come join the Tea Party rebellion.
On the other hand, if you support higher taxes, spending and borrowing as well as any of the Dem government health insurance bills and/or cap and tax, you are somewhere between left and far left
While I usually shun 'identity politics', since each issue should be able to stand on its own, it is sometimes useful in discussions to help clarify where someone stands 'on average'. While we fiscal moderates want to keep taxes as low as pragmatically feasible, we also understand that they are needed to pay for 'good governance policies' that a 21st Century America can, and should provide (defense, infrastructure, veteran/youth/senior assistance, 2nd-chance safety nets, sound incentives, etc).
Being open to discuss potential spending and/or Health-Care-Reform doesn't instantly make one 'Fiscally Left'. Thats the myth the Tea-Party keeps trying to spread. That *any* government spending is somehow 'socialism', *any* government involvement is somehow 'tyranny'. It doesn't matter what the problem is, the solution is always the same, 'lower taxes!' Thats the turn-off: they are so to the 'purity extreme' that *anything* left of their positions is labelled 'liberal'. They are just too rigid in their policies to attract my vote.
I'm for Balanced-Budgets (including tax-loophole closures, with a major focus on National Debt paydown over a 30-year-period).....and Health-Insurance-Reform (consumer protections, insurance exchanges, TORT reform, Public-Option 'OK' if paid entirely via individual premiums, no taxes on private health-care plans)
I'm for Gun-Rights with some restrictions (I believe the 2nd Amendment does defend the right of lawful citizens to privately keep and bear arms).....and Gay-Marriage (including equal benefits across the board and strong protections against discrimination, this is a pressing national civil-rights issue)
I'm for Defense-Spending (including shifting money from 'active arsenals' to newer technologies, with private research incentives alongside moderate government investment).....and a major focus on Diplomacy-First Foreign Policy
I'm for increased Stem-Cell-Research.....and Abortion-Reductions (via improved education and adoption incentives, with an openness to a potential compromise that limits some forms of no-risk-to-mother-late-term abortion where child could survive outside of womb in conjunction with incentives for clinics specializing in pre-fullterm infant delivery/care)
I'm for Green-Energy-Investment (including incentives for wind/solar/bio-fuel/clean-coal research, and long-term emission caps).....and increased Domestic-Oil-And-Natural-Gas-Extraction (to help bridge the technological gap)
I'm a big believer in Free-Enterprise (with strong consumer protections).....and Regulatory Oversight (re-establishing rules of the road to help prevent market loopholes that create boom-bust scenarios)
I enjoy viewing Rachel Maddow on MSNBC.....and Shepard Smith on FOX
I support Olympia Snowe (too moderate for the Tea-Party).....and Barack Obama (too compromising for Progressives)
Maybe I really am a RINO. Maybe I really am a DINO. So why would any Tea-Partiers want me in their grassroots caucus? They're the ones themselves that hate my 'impure politics' so much, giving me such a rough time. Why would any hard-line Progressive want me in their caucus? I would be nothing more than a Blue Dog (at best), that prevents their left-wing agenda from passing.
So we centrists are stuck searching for those moderate candidates that best fit into our politics, and if not a 'great fit'...searching for those who are at least most willing to work in a bi-partisan, compromise fashion. Both wings despise our type of voter. For we are the 'impure wrenches' that clog up their 'purified platforms'.
So we centrists are stuck searching for those moderate candidates that best fit into our politics
Kermit was a whiner that had it easy. Purple is the new green. :)
But at least we've, so far, got a President to vote for in 2012.
But at least you have, so far, a President to vote for in 2012.
Tis most true. Followed him since 2004. Worked till the fingers were raw to turn Central Florida for him in 2008...hoping to change how politics was done in Washington, hoping to bridge the hate-filled and partisan divide that permeates the two extreme wings of our country. While its not turning out as previously hoped, the President still has my unwavering support.
(then again, it wasn't until 2005 that my eyes opened to the Bush Administration...so maybe I'm just a naive dufus afterall)
EmonOkari said...
I enjoy viewing Rachel Maddow on MSNBC.....and Shepard Smith on FOX
~~~~~~~~~~
Rachel grows on you in an odd sort of way. Very reasoned and fair, such a juxtaposition to Olbermann who is totally over the top and hyperbolic and sarcastic like me. ;)
Whereas I don't watch Fox anymore, Smith would be the only one if I did.
Being a bleeding heart liberal on most social issues, the last (8) years of unnecessary wars, incompetence, corruption, constitutional violations, invasion of privacy and evangelicals/winger radio totally taking over the the Rep party along w/the rich getting richer beyond their wildest dreams and the middle class being squeezed out of existence was, shall I say, exasperating ...
the last (8) years of unnecessary wars, incompetence, corruption, constitutional violations, invasion of privacy and evangelicals/winger radio totally taking over the the Rep party along w/the rich getting richer beyond their wildest dreams and the middle class being squeezed out of existence was, shall I say, exasperating ...
I hear ya. And you are most correct. I voted for Bush...twice. So its partially my fault, and I apologize. The good news: both votes were in Washington State (which went for Gore and Kerry, respectively). But still, I'm ashamed for supporting such a corrupt administration that cared more for power than it did for the Constitution.
Rachel grows on you in an odd sort of way. Very reasoned and fair
Aye. I favor her geeky, detailed discussions that focus on policy and reasoned debate. Then again, I'm not afraid to say that it might also be a crush. Hey, I'll admit that my heart patters everytime she graces the TV screen, or I hear her voice. I even stop what I'm doing to watch her promo commercials. My wife will grin and chant, 'Your girlfriend is on!' But through all that, Rachel helps me think about each issue from different perspectives and analyze it thoroughly and fairly. And in the end, I think thats a good thing.
EmonOkari said...
~~~~~~~~~~
My mom voted for Nixon in '68 ~ I forgave her ;) and got her to vote for McGovern in '72, my first presidential vote. So I'm used to being in the minority lol.
Mentioned many times, the Dems keep nominating god awful candidates ie McGovern, Carter who almost blew a (30) pt. lead in '76, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, and speaking of exasperating, Kerry so it's not surprising they come up short so often when they also were usually at a money disadvantage and had no answer to scorched earth campaigns.
I really, really had to grit my teeth when I voted for Kerry, even after (4) years of cheney/bush! Rove knew exactly what to do in 2004, register 300k to 400k more Rep voters in both FL and OH and of course get out the vote and put the Gay marriage hate issue on the ballot in (8) states. Fear and hate go a long way, when one can't run on their record, plus when your opponent is clueless lol, that helps too. And of course no wartime incumbent president had ever lost re-election in American history, still, given the right candidate, the Dems could have won, I digress.
How ironic it was Obama who finally showed the Dems how to decisively win a presidential election, although cheney/bush and McCain/palin helped also. The stars were aligned for change. :)
David Frost interviewed Gore Vidal around 30/35 years ago and he said there's not a spit of difference between Dems and Reps and he went on to explain and I agreed w/just about everything he was saying ie once they get elected they are only worried about what they have to do to get re-elected, bottom line and nowadays the corporate lobbyists have total control over politicians, much like Limbaugh has total control over the party of No!
... and so it goes.
shiloh... you of all people should know that Gore Vidal was only half right with the "not a spit of difference" barb. Personality-wise, ethics-wise, self-preservation-wise, honesty-wise, of course D's and R's are the same. They're politicians.
But you know that policy-wise, that's not true. (Which is why I will always regret my Nader vote in 2000. At least I wasn't in FL, thank god!) Don't make me list things like
renewable energies
climate change
abortion rights
gun control
health care
in which the D's policy is far, far, far, far superior to the R's, regardless of each legislator's moral fiber.
I said, DON'T make me list them. Jeez.
"By the likes of Palin." Schmuck.
Has Newt Gingrich made an endorsement since Scozzafavva's endorsement of Owens? That put him in a bit of a bind really, given he had endorsed the Republican candidate. Even with 2 gubernatorial elections going on on the same night, I really do wonder if this isn't the key race of the night, in terms of looking forward to 2010 at least. Do the GOP take a hard right swing after a Conservative Party triumph, or if Owens wins can they take a more moderate stance?
I think it’s probably too close to the election to get any kind of decent or reliable polling on NY-23—there will be all kinds of “likely voter” models which will return a wild array of outcomes, so we’ll probably just have to wait and see.
attorney
Moremony
@Sasha - well, rooting for Hoffman, if this is done in public, does have real-worlds effects; it convinces voters who would have voted against Hoffman to stay home.
It's not a question of how bad Owens is (is there a better viable alternative on the ballot?)
It's a question of who's going to be around in a couple of years, or decades, to assume power when the big pendulum swings again. Do we really want the wingnuts out in force and fired up?
@Sergeiy
A fair point, although it might be moot in this case since after the 2010 census NY-23 may be the sacraficial lamb when NY loses at least one House seat in redistricting.
I've lived nearly my whole life upstate and my father is the kind of Republican that it's hard to find outside of New York anymore. (Neither of us live in the 23rd.) He served on the executive board of his labor union, but has been a Republican his whole life. He's even in a leadership role in local Republican politics now.
There are plenty of folks like him in the 23rd who were Dede supporters who will never vote for Hoffman. I think Nate's instinct that the vast bulk of her supporters will either vote Owens or stay home is correct. The big question is, will enough of them come out for Owens to give him the win?
This is where turnout will make a difference. NYSUT (the local AFT/NEA) is one of the strongest interest groups in NYS politics because of their vaunted ability to get their members to vote. They had endorsed Dede because of her history of supporting NYSUT in the state legislature and her position in favor of the EFCA. Now, they've switched to Owens' side along with the state AFL-CIO, which was remaining neutral until now. The Working Families Party, an electoral arm of labor and the good people at ACORN, has built a reputation as having the best turnout operation in the state. They've been working for Owens all along.
I think this is a 50/50 race. But my knowledge of state politics, my gut, and Nate's 15 questions, have me leaning towards Owens winning tomorrow.
Pragmatus said...
I would guess that the difference in NY-23’s 2008 party-line vote (i.e. GOP incumbent McHugh got 65% of the vote vs. McCain getting only 47%) was not due to distaste for McCain but dread and horror over the prospect of Sarah Palin anywhere near the corridors of power. Palin wrecked the McCain campaign, and now that she has come out so strongly in support of Hoffman I’m sure his campaign sees it as, at best, a mixed blessing.
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In my opinion, you are dead wrong.
Has it occurred to you that conservatives simply didn't vote for McCain, and more specifically, didn't vote at all? Would this maybe explain why an "R" district suddenly voted for Obama by 5 points?
I'm also fascinated in a trend that is developing -- but may have existed all along except people simple didn't realize it -- and that is that a not insignificant portion of independents are not moderates, but are conservatives who have steadily abandoned the GOP since the 1990's.
This is perhaps born out by the internals of many of the presidential approval polls that show Obama losing independents by large double digit margins. Either we have a large number of conservatives now identifying themselves as independents, or Obama has become incredibly unpopular amongst the majority independents in general, and in a very short timeframe.
It would be nice to think that these races on Tuesday might answer some of these questions, but if McConnell wins in a rout (likely), Corzine squeaks it with Dagget taking 10% of the vote (possible), and either Owens or Hoffman wins by a small margin, I don't think we'll know anything more on Wednesday that we do now...
NY-23 at this point probably doesn't tell us much unless one of the candidates wins by a very large margin.
JW said...
The big question is, will enough of them come out for Owens to give him the win?
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I'd elaborate on that and ask if they can get a large enough turn out to overcome the conservatives that are energized to vote. The conservatives will vote; the question is, will the rest? (I'm assuming this is why Nate wont be surprised if Hoffman wins big.)
PPP has Hoffman with a 17 point lead.
19 point lead before she quit, 14 point after she endorsed Owens.
Now it's about turnout.
@EmonOkari
I'll take a reasoned RINO any day over some of the conservative posters here. You're welcome in the tent. Plus you crack me up. Got to be able to find humour in life.
"a very middle-of-the-road district like NY-23"
What? NY-23 has reliably voted GOP for decades?!
I can tell PeteKent is a Republican troll when he mentions Obama Pelosi and Reid in a row. Only the most conservative posters can ever merge these 3 very different people into 1 line.
Secondly, this is a post. Its not a world class report or a newspaper or a college essay. The grammar isn't the point so back off. I'm sick of people complaining about this. If you can't just read around the mistakes then quit reading this post. Nate's a statistician. The point of this blog is to get the real numbers that the media 1. can't figure out or 2. doesn't care about.
I think Owens is going to win by 2 points and Didi will take around 11% of the vote even though she left the race. I hope people like PeteKent keep pushing the Rubio's, it'll make FL more competitive (can anyone say 65 Democrats in the Senate?!).
Finally, this new conservative wave is really an anti-government, ultra populist wave. They have nothing in common with the Republican party of big business. At first both groups linked up because they were anti-Obama but the teabaggers hate Wall Street Republicans (Romney/Guiliani) and pro-business Republicans (Republican leadership) too. I hope these Ron Paul loonies grow. It'll be the final nail in the Regan coalition's coffin.
Do you think it's possible to get Crist to switch parties? If everyone turns on him like they did to Scozzafava...
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