When I first learned that the Stupak Amendment, which would prevent abortion from being covered under health care plans included in the health care insurance exchanges, had passed by a 240-194 margin in the House, I assumed that something like the following happened: anybody who was either pro-life or who disapproved of the health care bill in general had voted for it.
Certainly, that description is apt for the half-dozen or so generally pro-choice Republicans, all of whom voted both for the Stupak Amendement and against the health care bill. But it doesn't really hold for the Democrats.
Rather, I was surprised at the number of Democrats who have solid pro-choice voting records but who nevertheless voted for Stupak Amendment. And the vast majority of these Democrats voted for, not against, passage of the underlying health care bill.
The below chart lists the 'yea' votes on Stupak among those representatives who had a rating of 67 in 2007-08 according to Planned Parenthood, and a rating of 33 or lower according to the National Right to Life Committee. (Note: no freshmen representatives are listed on this chart as they have not been rated yet.)
As you can see, 17 of the 20 Democrats who fell into this category voted for final passage of the health care bill. So what gives?
I'm sure there are idiosyncratic explanations in a number of cases, but I take this as a sign that they're worried about the re-election environment they'll face in 2010. 11 of the 20 pro-choice Democrats who voted for Stupak reside in districts that are rated as vulnerable according to Cook Political (note: candidates who are leaving the House to run for Senate or governor are rated based on those races instead). And, interestingly, they seem to think that a pro-choice vote would render them more vulnerable than a pro-health care vote, even though the pro-choice position is generally more popular than the health care bill on the table at the moment (although some recent polls have shown the pro-choice position losing ground).
Certainly, on health care, some of this may be a consequence of the logic that James Carville and others have espoused: Democrats know -- or believe -- that they'll be damned if don't pass a health care bill, so why not take the chance that things will turn out OK if they do? But there may also be something more here. Whereas the pro-life (anti-choice) movement is very well organized and has a long history of delivering votes, the anti-health care movement is somewhat disjointed, seemed to be limited in its electoral reach in NY-23, and carries a lot of baggage -- Glenn Beck, Michelle Bachmann, town hall screamers, and the like. And it may also be revealing of how they perceive their own base: whereas health care is a sine qua non for most Democratic base voters, they seem to be betting that the pro-choice position might no longer be.
11.09.2009
Many Previously Pro-Choice Dems Voted for Stupak Amendment
by Nate Silver @ 5:52 PM...see also abortion, health care, house democrats
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Its just ass covering by folks, even alot folks that are pro-abortion would be against paying for it with government money. Got any polling on that?
Good post. In some cases (Neal for one) you have pro-choice Democrats opposed to taxpayer funding for abortions. Also, since these are the 2007-2008 interest group ratings you don't get the same overall picture on the abortion issue. Those like Obey and Michaud are pro-life, but since the Democrats were in control of congress they did not have many "abortion" votes. But I believe that the biggest reason is that many Democrats knew they couldn't win unless this amendment was passed.
and here it comes [courtesy of Political Wire]:
'Tea Party Registers in Florida'
A conservative Florida lawyer "has registered an official 'Tea Party' with the office of the Secretary of State, and is promising to run candidates against Republicans and Democrats in state and national races," reports Ben Smith.
Said Frederic O'Neal, the party chairman: "The current system has become mired in the sludge of special interest money that seeks to control the leadership of both parties. It's time for real change."
GO T-BAGGERS !!!
================================
also, re: this thread topic on Political Wire:
'House Democrats Revolt'
"In a move that will intensify the coming war over how to treat abortion in the health care bill, more than three dozen House Dems have signed a letter to Nancy Pelosi firmly pledging to vote against the bill if it contains an anti-abortion amendment," Greg Sargent reports.
"A source sends over a working copy of the letter without the signatories, and the source says it currently bears the signatures of 41 House Dems. They're all vowing to vote No on a bill if it contains the Stupak amendment -- enough to sink the bill."
Marc Ambinder: "Notably, the White House refused to divulge the president's position on the language. By not divulging the president's position, the White House effectively divulged the president's position: he doesn't like the language, but he wouldn't want to sacrifice the bill. "
hhhmmm.... also posturing for their progressive home base voters
I sort of have to wonder if part of the explanation is that those Democrats knew they lacked the votes to pass health care reform without the Stupak Amendment, and so voted for it so that they would be able to grab those crucial final votes to get the bill passed.
Of course it's just cynical politics by pro-choice Democrats. AMA and AARP were bribed for their support too.
Intuitively though, voting for the Stupak amendment would give the final healthcare bill more likelihood of passing in the long run. Abortion is still such a contentious issue and for many people it just wouldn't be worth sacrificing reform over that single issue.
So you could interpret the results as Democrats who are more committed to healthcare than they are for maintaining abortion rights.
I think the explanation that some Democrats were willing to sacrifice abortion rights for passing health care reform is the most likely.
I think you have to keep in mind that this is just the House bill, and the way I understood it some of those who voted for the Stupak amendment are counting on it being removed or moderated in conference.
Just means that progressives have another sign of how much work they need to do to change people's minds about choice. It's a liberty issue, people want to impose their religious views on other americans.
People should have the right to live their lives as it makes sense to them, and control their own bodies. Men have wanted to control women's reproductive process for a long time, and it's about time we get past that.
If someone tried to tell me I couldn't get a vasectomy because it makes god cry and terminates the destiny of my sperm I'd punch them in the face tyvm. It's my body get the heck away from me with your busy body meddling.
Healthcare coverage necessarily includes reproductive procedures. I can't go to my mechanic for it, and diminishing someone's reproductive choices because they're poor is just wrong, and unfair(they're the only ones effected by antiabortion legislation the wealthy have always been able to do whatever they wanted with reproductive issues).
Charles said...
Of course it's just cynical politics by pro-choice Democrats. AMA and AARP were bribed for their support too.
~~~~~~~~~~
As always, please provide credible source material to back up your continual hyperbolic baseless claims.
More name calling by winger conservatives, eh because again, an African/American family is living in the White House and many sore loser, sour grape trolls, like yourself, are having a very, very hard time rationalizing/accepting this actuality.
take care, blessings
I've been surprised not to hear more folks commenting on the deeper problem: to the extent the Left wants both government-run insurance AND insurance that covers abortion, we need to face the reality that what we are asking precisely for "government-funded abortions." Personally, that is exactly what I want!!! (If the patient chooses, of course; and personally, I couldn't care less what most people choose.)
Politically this is a huge problem, and I'm surprised it came up so late in the game. But the issue is so fundamental, and the pro-choice position has slipped so badly in the last couple decades, that I can't really blame conservative Dems for Stupak votes in the same way I can blame them for "No" votes on passage.
Even the existing, 30-year-old Hyde amendment would force all abortions to be paid out-of-pocket under single-payer, which is many of our preferred system. I don't think there's any way to finesse this: we are going to have to either make (and win) the argument that Gov't should pay for elective abortions, or we are going to have to accept either (1) abortion being much less insurable (e.g. Stupak) or (2) inability to increase gov't involvement in health care. There just ain't no other way about it.
Would like t0 see a chart of catholic populations as a proportion of total in the relevant districts.
Suspect that will show us exactly where the pressure is coming from.
Nate, an excellent point, but try telling that to OpenLeft or desmoinesdem at MyDD. I still think the Stupak amendment could depress turnout among women next year, which is not good considering the GOP's "woman" problem.
In the Senate, Nate's idea is confirmed with McCaskill's support for the amendment, as she is strongly pro-choice in a strong pro-life state.
The decision comes down to the unpopularity of taxpayer funding of abortions versus angering the base. In the end, the former will win. Could the amendment keep the public option alive in the Senate?
I sure hope so, as the amendment without a public option makes no sense.
As the years go by, this country is apt to become MORE pro-life for various reasons. First, pro-lifers tend to reproduce more (obviously) so as the years go by, there will be more of them than of pro-choicers. Second, probably only 20-25% of the population want the federal government to pay for abortions. Those voters are already voting Democratic anyway so adding that plank to the bill is a lose-lose situation as 75-80% of the US will turn against the bill in varying levels.
Here in NJ, our state elected the first pro-life governor (ever?) last week and Corzine pretty much made it plain that it was an Obama/Corzine/pro-choice vs. a Bush/Christie/pro-life contest. In the end, it helped him not at all. Essentially pocketbook issues will triumph and no one but the pro-abortion (as opposed to pro-choice) crowd can stomach paying tax dollars to subside this procedure.
I think the commenters here are closer than Nate.
According to an article I read (sorry, can't remember where) there was concern by the Democrats that some pro-life Republicans might vote against the amendment to try to torpedo the bill. Apparently a Catholic cardinal personally lobbied the minority leaders to make sure they didn't do that.
Those from middle of the road district, or who are pro-choice but don't consider it at the forefront of their lives, may have voted for it to try to counteract any Republican shenanigans.
We owe our majority in the Senate to the 20-24 Senators that reside in Red/Purple states. If the Stupak amendment is removed, the legislation will not pass, pure and simple as no Senator from a Red/Purple state can vote for it without incurring a serious risk of defeat (see NC, AK, AR, ND, SD, WV, OH, IN, IA, CO, NM, NV, MT, VA, FL, NE) .. the 23 Senators from these 15 states would be whittled down to 6-7 within 6 years.
mikesbodypolitic:
As long as taxpayers are footing the bill, you can't get a vasectomy.
I'm not going to make any of my feminist friends happy with this but the Stupak agreement was a pragmatic move, period.
It is completely possible to be pro-choice AND pro-life but not the other way around (which I'm assuming Nate means by pro-life/anti-choice).
For conservatives and pro-life/anti-choice people this is a moral argument tantamount to putting sanctioned murder in a health bill. Whether you believe that or not is immaterial. You are never going to catch any flies with that argument and they will never allow Federal tax money to fund abortion. It is a complete deal breaker and if you thought they were mad about health care at the teabagger rally, wait until they get God thrown into the mix. The homicidal clinic bombers will start coming out of the woodworks.
It was either Cromwell or Sun Tza that said 'an army that believes God is behind it is unbeatable'. Or words to that effect.
I realize that this is also a women's right issue and I happen to be in that camp of wanting it to be considered in a health bill. But not at the expense of killing the bill. Let the righties have this one insignificant victory.
Here's where I piss some of my friends off. Abortion is an inexpensive outpatient procedure and I suspect there are other ways to assist women who want an elective abortion. And let's be for real, if you're having multiple abortions there are other issues that need to be addressed here *ducks head*.
And while I'm pissing people off, those on the left threatening not to vote for the bill if abortion is not in it are displaying just as much intolerance and insensitivity as the pro-life/anti-choice people are. This health care reform is bigger than both sides.
May be a moot point with only 59 votes in the Senate anyway.
< /end soapbox>
The Stupak amendment was a brilliant move by the Dems. Without it, the Repubs would have had forced a vote to recommit with instructions for an even more onerous amendment - and the anti-choice Dems would have had to vote for that one. The result would have been a bill that the progressive caucus could not allow to pass.
The Repubs are too ideological and too shortsighted to vote against Stupak. A health care bill without Stupak could not have gotten enough Blue Dog votes. The Repubs could have stopped health care, but didn't.
There's a good chance the Stupak regulations won't be in the final bill coming out of conference - but it's unlikely even the Blue Dogs would be willing to kill health care reform at that late date. They can honestly go back to the voters and say, "We tried to get Stupak in. We lost that one. But the current situation does not change - there is no Federal money for abortions."
wv: suckem. Believe it or not.
I think abortion should be safe, legal and rare. I don't see why it needs to be free.
This amendment doesn't bother me at all. For one thing, anybody who really needs an abortion will scrape together the money. I'd guess it still costs less than a crib, a Jolly Jumper and a year of Pampers and Enfalac.
If it takes this amendment to get health care reform for everybody, I wish people would just suck it up and do what they need to do.
Pregnancy, after all, is a preventable condition. Cerebral palsy is not, and neither is Huntington's, Parkinson's, renal failure, osteoarthritis or many cancers.
Thank you, filistro. Given our recent MULTIPLE agreements, I shall miss you as you take leave for a few days. Hurry back!
@NJ Conservative
this country is apt to become MORE pro-life for various reasons. blah, blah, blah...
Oh don't stop there NJCon. How about them Mexican illegals. Ain't thay all Cathlicks and such don't believe in birth control? They fuck like bunnies. There gonna be everywhere usin' up my tax dollars fer health care and welfar. Sheeit, we need to send 'em all back to Africa or wherever.
NJ, gotta say. That was some of the more stupid logic I've ever seen on 538. And I thought I was going out on a limb in my post. You win.
@ Mr. Universe
"And while I'm pissing people off, those on the left threatening not to vote for the bill if abortion is not in it are displaying just as much intolerance and insensitivity as the pro-life/anti-choice people are."
Or maybe they don't agree with the idea that you can deny people insurance plans with abortion coverage even if public money is not going directly towards covering abortions.
Or maybe they just agree with a majority of the American people when they say "The choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor," a position the majority has agreed with for the last 20 years, and vote accordingly.
@filistro
"I think abortion should be safe, legal and rare. I don't see why it needs to be free."
Abortion wouldn't be free, it would be paid for through premiums.
"This amendment doesn't bother me at all. For one thing, anybody who really needs an abortion will scrape together the money. "
Hey, why do we need health care legislation at all? Anyone who really needs health care will scrape together the money, right?
"Pregnancy, after all, is a preventable condition."
Yeah, just like HIV!
For anyone other than shiloh:
1) The American Medical Association (AMA) was facing a 21 percent cut in physicians' reimbursements under the current law. Obama promised to kill the cut if they backed his bill. The cuts are the fruit of a law requiring annual 5-6 percent reductions in doctor reimbursements for treating Medicare patients. Bravely, each year Congress has rolled the cuts over, suspending them but not repealing them. So each year, the accumulated cuts threaten doctors. By now, they have risen to 21 percent. With this blackmail leverage, Obama compelled the AMA to support his bill...or else!
2) The AARP also got a financial windfall in return for its support of the healthcare bill. Over the past decade, the AARP has morphed from an advocacy group to an insurance company (through its subsidiary company). It is one of the main suppliers of Medi-gap insurance, a high-cost, privately purchased coverage that picks up where Medicare leaves off. But President Bush-43 passed the Medicare Advantage program, which offered a subsidized, lower-cost alternative to Medi-gap. Under Medicare Advantage, the elderly get all the extra coverage they need plus coordinated, well-managed care, usually by the same physician. So more than 10 million seniors went with Medicare Advantage, cutting into AARP Medi-gap revenues.
Presto! Obama solved their problem too. He eliminates subsidies for Medicare Advantage. The elderly will have to pay more for coverage under Medigap, but the AARP -- which supposedly represents them -- will make more money. (If this galls you, join the American Seniors Association, the alternative group; contact sbarton@americanseniors.org )
Charles said...
Thank you, filistro. Given our recent MULTIPLE agreements, I shall miss you as you take leave for a few days. Hurry back!
~~~~~~~~~~
Chuck, you're quite the charmer! ;)
Indeed, hurry back filistro lol as Chuck has found a new buddy, or at least thinks he has ;) kumbaya
Too funny!
Charles said...
For anyone other than shiloh:
~~~~~~~~~~~
Come'on Chuck, you like me, you really like me ...
take care, blessings
and please, keep on spinning!
Juris:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/66969-senior-dem-confident-stupak-amendment-will-be-stripped
Bottom line, however, will be whether Obama will sign any such bill:
"Under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions . . ."
September 9, 2009
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC):
"You lie!"
Also, by mere coincidence, September 9, 2009.
Charles said...
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC):
"You lie!"
Also, by mere coincidence, September 9, 2009.
~~~~~~~~~~
And yet more name calling by conservative politicians! and during a joint session of Congress, no less.
My oh my oh my ....
Fortunately for us, we live in a nation that is free - legal abortions, a Democratic majority, etc. - rather than Republican.
If we're fortunate, the health care bill that comes out of conference - and that Obama eventually signs - will make us still more free - i.e., will remove the Stupak restrictions - rather than being more Republican.
@shma
I'll add you to the list of people I ticked off.
For the record: I am one of those pro-choice left of center types that so far as I can tell agree with you the majority of the time. Looks like this won't be one.
@Mr. Universe
You didn't tick me off. But I do strongly disagree with you characterization of the legislators demanding the restoration of abortion rights as "intolerant and insensitive". There are plenty of legitimate reasons for them to pressure Pelosi, including purely strategic ones.
Filistro on the other hand....he pissed me off.
shma... I'm not a "he". I'm a person who's actually experienced pregnancy (though not abortion). I'm very liberal on social issues. And this is something I've thought about quite a lot.
To quote Otto Von Bismarck... "Politics is the art of the possible."
The majority of the country doesn't want abortion to be illegal. The majority also doesn't want it to be publicly funded. If it's not possible to get sweeping health care reform without giving in on this issue, then I'm all for giving in.... and making people be responsible for their own bodies and what they do with them.
Sorry if that annoys you. (We'd probably agree on just about everything else.)
Hey, Bismarck was responsible for some great quotes! Who knew?
Here are some more of them.
filistro, Mr. Universe -
I find my own position somewhere between yours. I agree wholeheartedly (and I think both of you would as well) that, in a perfect world, the Stupak Amendment would not have been needed. But it was. The alternative is to wait another generation to try again for health care reform.
As it is, if anything close to the House bill becomes law, we can spend that generation instead improving on what has been put in place - including limiting or eliminating the effects of Stupak.
The perfect should not be the enemy of the good. The goal should not become a reason to prevent the first step.
wv: trust (seriously, that's the word). Let's trust that we can make real progress here.
I was about to leave a comment until I read Mr. Universe's, and the filistro's. Could not have summed it up better myself. Well said, and thanks for voicing it.
Not that 538 is supposed to be thought of as being neutral, but it bugs me when people won't let pro-life call itself pro-life and insist on "anti-choice." Even if you disagree with the pro-life position can you at least show the decency to recognize it as a legitimate way of thinking and leave its name alone? To say that "anti-choice" is perfectly sensible but "anti-life" is not is to presuppose the very question at hand!
@diabolical_mdog
Do you disagree that religious conservatives are opposed to allowing a woman to have the choice to have an elective abortion?
wv: erdsess - a female erds
"shma... I'm not a "he". "
My default stance on the Internet is to always type 'he' to refer to an unknown gender unless the user name clearly indicates otherwise. Sorry.
"The majority of the country doesn't want abortion to be illegal"
The majority of the country wants abortion to be decided between a woman and her doctor, not Congress, as those polls clearly indicate.
"The majority also doesn't want it to be publicly funded."
The Stupak amendment does much more than just ban public funding of abortions. Stupak bans any public money going to private insurance companies offering abortions to customers paying with their own money even if no public money goes is going to pay for the abortions. Because part of the administrative side of the insurance market is paid for with public funds, now all insurance companies which enter it will now be required to not offer abortion.
"Sorry if that annoys you."
What annoyed me was you characterizing my position as wanting abortions "to be free"* and pretending that "pregnancy, after all, is a preventable condition". Pregnancy is no more preventable than any sexually transmitted disease, but I don't see anyone demanding the government not fund treatment of STDs.
*Would you be OK with me characterizing your position as wanting congress to abolish women's rights? I didn't think so.
@shma
Because part of the administrative side of the insurance market is paid for with public funds, now all insurance companies which enter it will now be required to not offer abortion.
As I understand it, this is not quite true. The particular policy that is subsidized may not include abortion as one of the covered medical procedures. However, the insurance companies will still be able to offer additional policies and/or riders that do offer abortion as a covered procedure - even if that procedure is the only thing included in the policy. The restriction is that federal subsidies may not be used to help cover the cost of either the procedure or the rider.
To clarify further:
I believe this is true (subject to someone who has better information) - a person would be able to get a subsidized health insurance policy - or a non-subsidized policy from the insurance exchanges - that does not offer abortion services as a covered medical procedure. In addition, that person may also purchase a separate policy - or a non-subsidized rider - that does cover abortion as a medical procedure.
shma... you re compelling me to analyze why I have such a knee-jerk reaction to this issue.
So here it is, though it's probably going to piss you off again: I find myself repelled by the idea of women wanting abortion... which costs, what? 4 or 5 hundred dollars each time?... included in an insurance package. Any kind of insurance, public or private. It implies this is something that's going to be happening frequently so we better get coverage because dealing with it on an as-needed basis is really going to blow the household budget.
I just find that kind of creepy. Again, sorry. I just do.
filistro -
As an example why such a procedure should be covered by a standard insurance policy -
Many years ago (almost 30 years) my wife got pregnant. We were married, and we desperately wanted a child, and this would be our first kid. However, something went wrong with the fetus in utero, and it stopped developing at about 10 weeks. With one thing and another, with a great number of tests to prove that it would develop no further - my wife eventually had a D & C, at about 20 weeks. The fetus had stopped developing many weeks earlier - and was, in fact, medically dead. This was a case of a stillborn infant.
She may have carried the dead fetus "to term". Or her body may have never rejected the fetus at all - her body might well have "thought" it was pregnant - forever. (This sort of thing does, occasionally, happen.) She may have been rendered unable to have another child.
The procedure she had was, technically, an abortion. An argument could even have been made that the procedure was not medically necessary - certainly, her life was not in danger.
At that time, the procedure was covered, almost 100%, by our insurance. I'm glad it was - we were not very well off at the time, and it would have been very difficult for us to pay for it. (Back then, these were not out-patient procedures, and she spent two days in the hospital.)
Under Stupak, the procedure would not be covered.
But having said that - I still agree with you, that Stupak was needed for a greater good - it was very likely the only way to get the reform bil passed in the HOuse.
@shrinkers, I believe you're wrong. A woman cannot be on the public option and have a separate plan that covers abortion EVEN IF SHE PAYS FOR IT!
That's the point. That's why it's legislating morality. And that's why it's not acceptable.
What if a person were not allowed to purchase affordable health insurance if on their own they purchased a plan that covered a really important surgery, like amputation or some such (maybe they have diabetes)?
How fair is that?
re: filistro's last comment, I think the point is that a very large part of the purpose of reform in the first place is letting the poor have access to some kind of health care. The primary concern here is that we're locking poor people, who maybe can't afford a $500 hit even once, out from access to abortions. Not that they necessarily have it now, just that it's a more institutionalized denial.
Speaking as someone who opposes the content of Stupak, in and of itself, I'm not sure what I think of it pragmatically. Worth killing the whole bill over? Definitely not. It's possible that it got the bill through the House this time, will get dropped later, and then people won't have the guts to vote the whole thing down at that point, in which case it's just brilliant. If it does get into the law, I think my personal take-away is that this exchange is going to need some serious reworking in the moderately near-term future.
As for whoever wanted Nate to use the term "pro-life": both of the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are framed so as to give the conservative position a considerable advantage here. Obviously, you just can't be anti-life, and while it seems like being anti-choice would be a bad thing, too, it's also very much the case that being "anti-having women treat abortion like just a choice they can make that doesn't really matter" will seem like very much a good thing. Having the left identify with the word "choice" here kind of makes us look callous and indifferent. I think the left would be far better off framing this in terms of government intrusion, whether criminalizing what we can all agree is a really undesirable procedure is the best policy, reducing unwanted pregnancies (which is, I think, a test for whether or not someone is debating in good faith on this issue), and whether you can force one person to support another person with their own body.
So if we're going to be forced into the "choice" framework, which is already tilted against us, I think it's reasonable to refer to our opponents as "anti-choice." It's not like the whole frame doesn't favor them, already.
@Sacto Joe -
I agree with you that it is not fair at all - and that Stupak Is Bad and needs to be removed from our health care law as soon as possible. But, as I said, I also think Stupak was, at the moment, a necessary evil.
We may have to find the actual language of the amendment. The commentators I was listening to on Saturday night and Sunday morning were definitely saying that a woman would, in fact, be able to buy a separate rider - they could have been wrong, of course. Some research needs to be done on this detail.
shrinkers... what's truly horrifying is that right now, today, if that happened to your wife in North or South Dakota her doctor would probably not be allowed to terminate the pregnancy. It would be illegal, whether you had insurance or were able and willing to pay outright.
That's the ultimate consequence of the right wing agenda. It's absolutely unthinkably awful, anti-woman and dehumanizing.
Making people pay cash on the line for their own safe, legal abortions, OTOH, is hardly in the same category.
And yes... Stupak is a necessary beginning. Without it, we'll likely never get the camel's nose inside the tent.... at least not for another generation. But once it's there, wedging the whole body inside becomes a lot more possible.
NJ_Moderate: As the years go by, this country is apt to become MORE pro-life for various reasons.
Or one could say this country is apt to become less pro-life for various reasons. There was a recent survey that showed atheists as the fastest growing religious (or non-religious) group. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/09/national/main4853201.shtml If religious conviction is a large driver of the pro-life stance and religion becomes less of a factor in the US, then support for the pro-life position may drop over time.
no one but the pro-abortion (as opposed to pro-choice) crowd can stomach paying tax dollars to subside this procedure.
I don't think that's true. I consider myself pro-choice and not pro-abortion (really, who is "pro-abortion"?), and I can see a good argument that the government should not discriminate among legal medical procedures, even if I object to them.
@shrinkers
"The restriction is that federal subsidies may not be used to help cover the cost of either the procedure or the rider."
No that's untrue. You can read the actual amendment here. It very specifically states that any plan made by an insurance company which offers abortion through the exchange is illegal, regardless of whether public funds are used for the abortion procedure itself or not (specifically it prohibits government funding of any part of the costs of any health plan that includes coverage of abortion. "Any part of the costs" obviously includes administrative costs, as well as any costs not related to abortion procedures themselves). There is a section which states that supplemental coverage can be issued so long as it is paid for "using only funds not authorized or approved by this act", but since the government is overseeing the exchange (and thus the whole exchange makes use of such funds) I don't see how anyone participating in the exchange could meet this requirement.
At any rate, Stupak clearly stipulates that no public plan nor any private plan purchased with any use of subsidies may cover an abortion. Due to the mandate, virtually everyone in the middle class or worse off (who doesn't currently have employer-provided insurance) will use some sort of subsidy or the public option, or both.
Thus virtually everyone who could not or might not be able to afford $500 or so for the procedure would be banned from being covered for abortions.
Does anyone know if there is a life-or-health-of-the-mother exception? As bad as the amendment is, it would be absolutely criminal if medically necessary abortions could not be covered.
I shall have to educate MR. Mini-verse on this topic. In 1973, young people were pro-choice on the order of 2-1 or even 3-1. Now, 36 years after Roe v. Wade is is roughly 1-1. Why did the youth get significantly more conservative over the past 36 years? Well, if you look at facts, you will see the lowest birth rates are in the NE .. very blue states while the highest birth rates are in the Deep South (excluding FLA) and the Mountain west. Red/Purple terrain all.
Facts are facts .. if Stupak's amendment is stripped out, this legislation is stone, cold dead as is Obama's chances for re-election in 2012. The pro-life side is too motivated and coordinated to be denied and if you don't believe that .. look at how they crushed one of their own when Bush tried to put Miers on the Supreme Court.
The progressives who are whining that they won't vote for the bill in the House if Stupak's amendment is in place are full of hot air. Will this bill be any better in 2011 after the inevitable losses our party will suffer in 2010?
A simpler explanation is that the bill couldn't have passed without Stupak, so some pro-choice Dems played it smart by sucking up their pride on choice in favor of a win on healthcare.
@filistro
"I find myself repelled by the idea of women wanting abortion... which costs, what? 4 or 5 hundred dollars each time?... included in an insurance package. Any kind of insurance, public or private."
Abortions can cost thousands of dollars when there are late term complications with the pregnancy. For many people that is a significant amount of money.
"It implies this is something that's going to be happening frequently so we better get coverage because dealing with it on an as-needed basis is really going to blow the household budget"
Insurance isn't always about paying to protect yourself against a likely event. Sometimes it is paying to protect yourself against an unlikely event that can be relatively expensive.
But even so, abortions happen frequently enough (almost a million every year) that they probably require insurance, even at the cost of 400 dollars per operation. Recognizing that doesn't mean you approve of it, it means that you understand it's the reality of the situation.
@shma -
I understand your interpretation of the act. However, the act does go on to state the conditions under which people may "Purchase Separate Supplemental Coverage or Plan". Unless this section was included as an intentionally misleading blind, on the face of it, it does seem to be allowing people to purchase separate supplemental coverages or plans on their own, and it does seem to be allowing companies that are participating in the exchange to offer such supplemental coverage and plans.
I understand the point you're making about "administrative costs," and quite likely the anti-choice people will make that same argument. However, if the insurance companies keep the administrative costs separate, and include them in the cost of the supplemental plan, such a plan seems to be allowed under Stupak.
Perhaps we need to write our congresspeople for clarification?
First of all, a D&C is considered to be an abortion. Therefore, any woman who's fetus dies in utero, will need to get an abortion to remove the fetus from her uterus.
That being the case, insurance policies should be required to cover abortion to protect the health of the mother.
Secondly, the Hyde language, previously placed in the bill, already prevented federal funds from being used for abortion.
This was an answer to a question only an idiot would ask. Too many Democrats (and Republicans) bought in to a phony frame.
Sad, really
dsimon, a pro-abortion person is someone who wants abortion-on-demand without what most would considered reasonable restrictions such as parental consent and a 24-hour waiting period especially since you can't give a child an aspirin in school without parental consent.
@Jacob -
Yes, in fact, Stupak does allow exceptions in the case of the health of the mother. Abortions of that nature may be covered under federally-subsidized plans, just as they are today.
@NJ Conservative
"Will this bill be any better in 2011 after the inevitable losses our party will suffer in 2010?"
Hey I agree that the Republicans are in trouble, but I don't know that they're headed to "inevitable" losses yet.
If anything, the Democrats will probably lose at least a few even in a good year. Or did you mean to say "your party" or "their party?"
But yeah it's a shame that this issue can be hijacked against the pro-choice majority in this country. I think you're right that progressives will suck it up and pass a good bill even with this odious amendment attached.
@NJ_Republican
the inevitable losses our party will suffer in 2010
A bold prediction - that your party (i.e., the Republicans) are going to suffer "inevitable losses" in 2010. I hope you're right!
@shrinkers
Intentional or not, I expect it to be argued that way in court, and this Supreme Court is not above rewriting laws based on technicalities (see Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co.).
Going back to the main issue, I think the reason why some of the 41 representatives chose to take such a strong stand on this issue was to get a better and clearer amendment through the conference. I don't think these people actually want health care to go down in flames, but I do think they want a better bill that doesn't go farther than something like the Hyde amendment (no funding for procedures, but what you do with premiums is your own business). And the best way to do that is to start from a strong stance and negotiate down.
For the record though, I think that there should be no impediments towards the funding of any legal medical procedure, regardless of who is doing the funding.
@Jacob
Yes, there are the standard rape, incest and life-endangerment exceptions.
@NJMod
I doubt you've ever met a "pro-abortion" person. I mean I haven't and almost everyone I know is pro-choice. But taken by your parroting of the GOP "abortion on demand" line, you wouldn't know the difference.
FYI the opposition to "parental consent" laws stems from the fact that many parents would use the opportunity to force the minor child to carry her fetus to term--legally obligating her to be responsible for it thereafter. We generally don't allow parents to make life decisions for their children. There is also the very very real issue of domestic abuse, which is something that rarely results from a child taking aspirin.
Conservatives who support these so-called consent laws tend to be resistant to judicial override in the case of a child whose parents will not consent to the abortion.
So don't bring up a BS comparison like "taking an aspirin in school" somehow relates to "forcing a minor to carry a fetus to term and care for it for the rest of her life."
@ filistro
I completely agree with your analysis. I can also feel for you as a left of center sort of Democrat who feels somewhat pressured by the left on abortion issues. Like I'm not a true Democrat if you're not 100% pro-choice.
As for the bill I think this compromise is necessary. Without the Stupak amendment the bill would fail.
@shma
For the record though, I think that there should be no impediments towards the funding of any legal medical procedure, regardless of who is doing the funding.>
I agree with you entirely on that. And it is tragic that what "should be" is not always "is".
@shma and shrinkers
Thanks. That is good to know.
Re: "A bold prediction - that your party (i.e., the Republicans) are going to suffer "inevitable losses" in 2010. I hope you're right!"
Damn! I just picked up on the NJ Con is pretending to be a Democrat thing. Wow he does not hide his true colors well!
Jacob and shrinkers, you must have lived in deep blue states most of your lives but, as a whole, this country is rapidly becoming less pro-choice and the House Leadership is smart enough to recognize this.
Bob Casey Sr. couldn't even get a sniff of our party's platform a generation ago but we openly trot out our pro-life bona-fides in Casey Jr., Tester and even Reid.
If our party itself is bending to the pro-lifers, just check out the Republican party where you will not even sniff the Presidential nomination if you are pro-choice (see Guiliani, Rudolph).
That is why our party will be killed in 2010, because most of the bloggers here insist on purity rather than results. Ted Kennedy would always compromise if it advanced the cause, I don't see why so many of you are blind to this lesson. Face it, if you want an abortion and it is not a medical necessary procedure, you will have to pay. Putting taxpayer-funded abortion into law will doom us to minority status for 30 years and will allow a President Romney, Jindal, Huckabee, Palwenty or whoever else they dig up to put 7 Supreme Court justices on the bench.
Slightly off topic, but aren't "rape" and "incest" exceptions really really logically inconsistent? Like, if your standpoint is that abortion is wrong, or in some way a bad thing, you probably on some level think so because of concern for the interests of the baby (I'm being generous by using that term). It makes sense to have a "life-threatening" exemption: after all, at that point you're in a situation where the interests are in direct conflict.
But aren't we as society judging that we are okay with, if you accept this view of things, murdering the children of rape? Or incest? Not, obviously, to defend rape or incest, both of which are horrible things for various reasons, but the product of such an act doesn't necessarily care about the circumstances of his/her conception. At least, I can't see why they would any more than a baby with a mental defect would "care" about that, and want to avoid that suffering.
My point is, basically, if you're willing to make exceptions for rape and incest cases, you're already in the business of deciding whether an unborn child's life should be ended, on its own merits.
NOTE: I am staunchly against the criminalization of abortion, though I do think it's something that should happen as rarely as possible... I'm just trying to point out a logical inconsistency here...
@lojasmo
"Secondly, the Hyde language, previously placed in the bill, already prevented federal funds from being used for abortion."
I thought so, too, but that's actually not true:
The Hyde Amendment...is a limitation amendment barring the use of federal funds to pay for abortions through funds allocated by the annual appropriations bill for Health and Human Services.
Since this isn't funded by the appropriations bill, the Hyde amendment doesn't apply here.
wv: "buthuts". That's right, "buthuts".
Holly, thank you.
I'm glad Nate started this discussion, because I've found it enlightening. (I didn't really know all that much about the amendment.) I'm also struck by how many of us in here... you, me, Mr. Universe, Shrinkers, et al... would almost never compromise on any socially liberal principle, but are willing to yield on this one for what we see as the greater good.
There are a just a lot more of us than I would have expected.
And, little Jacob, A Democrat from VA is different than a Democrat in NY or CA. We are far more pragmatic and often produce much better results. It is not a surprise that it has been 3 generations since a Pacific Coast or NE Democrat has won the Presidency and JFK was even more conservative than I.
@filistro -
what's truly horrifying is that right now, today, if that happened to your wife in North or South Dakota her doctor would probably not be allowed to terminate the pregnancy. It would be illegal, whether you had insurance or were able and willing to pay outright.
You're right, that is utterly horrifying. I can think of few things that could be more horrible than to be faced with the possibility of being forced to carry a dead fetus for years - possibly for the rest of your life. I shiver with the horror of it, and I'm a man.
Only slightly less horrible - only slightly - is the thought of having to carry that dead fetus to to "term", and then being forced, by a cruel law, to give birth to a tiny corpse.
It was a horrible time in our lives, and, after some 30 years, is still immensely painful. We are able to bear the pain by the fact that we now have two beautiful and healthy adult children - and two incredibly adorable grandchildren.
The anti-choice people may well have denied us this - and thus denied the lives of four people.
This is one of the many reasons I find it absurd and offensive to call these hateful fools "pro-life". They are nothing of the kind.
@NJ Con
Yeah I think most of us here can stomach a bad amendment to pass a good bill. Hell, we've bitten the bullet on so many compromises on HC already.
2010 may not be a good year, but I think our party will survive by being a bigger tent, as Stupak, the PO, mandates, etc etc etc show.
Incidentally, "our party" is no more controlled by a few bloggers than is "yours."
YOUR party however, with its obsession on ideological purity, is due for an underperformance a la NY-23.
@Jacob
Re: the ideological purity of NJ_Con's Republican party, I see that the "Tea Party" is now registered in Florida and intends to run candidates in 2010, and the Hair Club for Growth has already registered a candidate to run in the Repub primary against Crist.
Good times, people! I'm buying lots of popcorn!
look at how they crushed one of their own when Bush tried to put Miers on the Supreme Court.
lol, man, talk about revisionist history. Harriet Miers didn't get on the Supreme Court because she was woefully underqualified and because was George Bush's personal counsel, not because of her views on abortion.
Out of everything that Bush did in office, I have to say that the Miers thing was the most bizarre and utterly incomprehensible. You can't nominate someone who hasn't been at least an attorney general - and then to compound that craziness by nominating your personal lawyer?!
@Persuter
Out of everything that Bush did in office, I have to say that the Miers thing was the most bizarre and utterly incomprehensible.
I think it stemmed from Bush's conviction that, as El Presidente, he could do whatever he wanted with no consequences and no checks form any other branch of the government. He fully expected the Senate to roll over and play dead as they had on nearly everything else.
And as far as qualifications - he himself was stupendously incapable of being President. I'm sure he saw no requirement for SCOTUS, other than ideology.
@hurricanexyz
My point is, basically, if you're willing to make exceptions for rape and incest cases, you're already in the business of deciding whether an unborn child's life should be ended, on its own merits.
Yes, you're right. And this is the very reason most anti-choice people oppose even these exceptions.
The Miers nomination was personally historic for me in that just for maybe 3 or 4 minutes it made me actually kind of like Ann Coulter, when she said on national television that Bush had "nominated his cleaning lady to the Supreme Court."
Ah, Dubya. What an entertainer.
@filistro
Miers was certainly no great legal mind. She was nominated because s) she was a Bush crony (he liked to appoint his friends to things - think "Heck of a Job" Brownie) and b) she could be counted on to vote the "right way" without having to think about it too hard.
I'm sure Bush thought he could get away with Miers for the same reason McCain nominated Palin - that Dems would not dare oppose (or even criticize) a woman - and, in fact, that women's groups coupld be counted on to support a woman simply because it was a woman, regardless of said woman's qualifications or opinions. It goes back to a previous thread, and the Republicans' view of the women's intelligence and weakness to be manipulated.
@Charles
my plan covers vasectomy should I want it. The point is that the people who need this health-care insurance can barely afford just to live, and putting additional burdens on those people to control their own bodies and lives in such a fundamental way just isn't the right thing to do in my opinion.
@NJ Conservative
In 1973, young people were pro-choice on the order of 2-1 or even 3-1. Now, 36 years after Roe v. Wade is is roughly 1-1. Why did the youth get significantly more conservative over the past 36 years? Well, if you look at facts, you will see the lowest birth rates are in the NE .. very blue states while the highest birth rates are in the Deep South (excluding FLA) and the Mountain west. Red/Purple terrain all.
That's your convincing counterpoint?
Dude, do you seriously think you can show up here at a site that deals with numbers and statistics and actually think you can find dumbasses who will just buy your random figures? Making broad conclusions as though you got them from some think tank? Cite your sources or take it to the Freeptards.
Facts are facts
YES! Yes they are. And the difference between you and facts are that you continuously indulge in wishful thinking. There is nothing remotely factual in your paragraph.
And why do you keep this sockpuppet routine going when you know we all know that you're a republican? Are you on some kind of {{secret}} mission from Hair Club for Growth, or Some right wing blog called "something FREEDOM something" (replace the word something with the adjective or noun of your choice)? Ooh yeah, maybe there's some converts over at 538. You're like a missionary from RedState.
If you're gonna get into a battle of wits and be taken seriously you should probably bring some ammo. Beat it, dude. I'm done with ya.
looking at the poll numbers i dont see a shift that shows people turning to the pro life position.]
gallop split the dems and repubs evenly in their poll.
as for this bill and as a woman i say this is a deal breaker. i am deeply insulted that i have to give up my rights to get health care for all.
once again the poor are being pitted against each other.
those here that are for the bill regardless, how quickly you throw away another person's hard fought right.
and if this goes down i am sure women will once again take the blame. back to the garden of eden...
Abortion still elicits such heightened emotion, for good reason, it is the state-sanctioned destruction of human life.
Who on this board, with a straight face, will state that its not?
The abortion rights lobby fights like caged tigers the addition of medical imaging technologies within woman's health clinics?
Why? Because to see, in real time, what an abortive procedure does to an unborn fetus is bone-chilling.
To except the federal government to subsidize abortion is a gross violation of civil rights. I am glad there is a pro-life majority in congress.
But is this enough for conservatives to stand against abortion? No, they need to put their money where there mouth is an adopt at-risk children and support vulnerable mothers.
Certainly, on health care, some of this may be a consequence of the logic that James Carville and others have espoused: Democrats know -- or believe -- that they'll be damned if don't pass a health care bill, so why not take the chance that things will turn out OK if they do? But there may also be something more here. Whereas the pro-life (anti-choice) movement is very well organized and has a long history of delivering votes, the anti-health care movement is somewhat disjointed, seemed to be limited in its electoral reach in NY-23, and carries a lot of baggage -- Glenn Beck, Michelle Bachmann, town hall screamers, and the like.
Limited in its electoral reach?
Among adults (rather than likely voters who are more GOP and conservative), Gallup finds that pluralities believe that Obamacare will make their health care situation worse and do not want their Congress critter to vote for it.
The Pollster.com average is 51.6% against and only 44.2% for with polling of primarily adults.
Rasmussen's polling of likely voters is 52% against to 45% for.
The common factor in all this polling is that heavy majorities of both the GOP and Indis oppose Obamacare. The GOP and indis dominate the Blue Dog districts.
Limited in its electoral reach? More like an electoral death sentence.
There are over 40 Dems from Red or Purple districts who voted for House Obamacare. With any luck, we will have some Dems up for election in Red or Purple states who will vote for the Senate Obamacare bill, including I hope Colorado's Dem Senator.
Even if or more likely when these endangered Dems vote against whatever monstrosity that comes out of reconciliation, they are already on record voting for it. Going back to their pissed off electorate explaining that they voted for it before they voted against it should work as well as it did for Kerry on 2004.
The common factor in all this polling is that heavy majorities of both the GOP and Indis oppose Obamacare
Wow. Good thing, then, that there is no such thing as "Obamacare". I guess tehy are opposing someone's fantasy.
Polls do show that a heavy majority of Americans support the changes to the health care system that are contained in the health care reform bills which are being considered in Congress.
Perhaps you should include an additional variable here: proportion of Catholics in District. Catholic Bishops were pronounced in the promotion of the Stupak Amendment. Many of these Democrats may live in heavily Catholic Districts. Many Catholics are pro-life Democrats who are both anti-abortion and supportive of Health Care Reform.
Many analysts through the years have underestimated the cross-pressures which many Democrats face on the abortion issue. If you are from a heavily Catholic District, you almost have to avoid antagonizing the Catholic Bishops. While some pro-life Catholic voters have switched parties due to the abortion issue, many devout Catholics have remained Democrats, but that does not mean they are pro-choice.
I think there is something we're missing here.
Republicans voted against the health care reform bill, even though it contains national abortion restrictions that are stronger than those which exist now.
Republicans, therefore, voted against restrictions on abortion. They voted for the Stupak amendment, then voted against the final bill. They were for abortion restrictions before they were against them.
Just wait until the 2010 elections. They're all in deep trouble. The voters will not stand for these weak-assed Republicans who voted voted against restrictions on abortion.
I expect them all to be kicked out of the House in 2010 - according to BdP's arguments. I can't wait for the bloodbath.
There is another possible factor here from some Reps who are highly supportive of reform. Stupak, Ellsworth, Dahlkemper and a few other pro-life Democrats had indicated that they would oppose HR 3962 unless the Stupak amendment were at least permitted a vote, and perhaps there were some who feared those votes would be lost if the Stupak Amendment failed. Therefore some otherwise pro-choice, strongly pro-Health Reform Democrats may have supported the Stupak Amendment to ensure its adoption, thereby guaranteeing passage of the bill.
Another side point here is that many in the media have mistakenly applied to pro-life Democrats the blanket description "conservative Democrats." Some pro-life Democrats in fact have very liberal voting records. Check out the voting record of Senator Bob Casey for example. He is solidly liberal/progressive in every other respect in his voting record and policy positions, but is strongly pro-life so can be expected to be a leading supporter of adopting the Stupak language in the Senate bill.
mikesbodypolitic:
And my "opinion" is that federal tax dollars should not be used. Are you going to "punch me in the face" now?
Charles, you still have not answered yoink's question from a previous thread. Please answer. I would like to know.
shrinkers:
Since neither you nor yoink have answered MY questions, you won't be surprised then.
NJ_Moderate: you must have lived in deep blue states most of your lives but, as a whole, this country is rapidly becoming less pro-choice
Rapidly? My impression is that numbers have been moving slowly, if at all, over the years.
I do recall a recent poll claiming that "pro-life"ers now outnumber "pro-choice"ers, but you have to define your terms in such debates. Do people who oppose abortion on demand make all of those people "pro-life"? Similarly, most people are not in favor of banning abortion entirely. Does that make them "pro-choice"?
Seems to me that most people occupy a middle ground. What does that make them?
And you didn't address my point: that as religion becomes less important (as recent polls have shown), then the abortion issue may subside as well.
You didn't ask me any question, Charles.
Let me ask you here - What's the difference between a duck?
dsimon:
In one of my posts I had a link to polling data on abortion going back as early as 1990. Here you go:
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
@dsimon
And you didn't address my point: that as religion becomes less important (as recent polls have shown), then the abortion issue may subside as well.
I hope you're wrong here. Follow my logic -
All of the Republicans in the House (except Cao) voted against the health care reform bill. Yet that bell contained stronger abortion restrictions than exist in current Federal law. Therefore, they all voted against abortion restrictions. That is, they all voted anti-life.
Aren't they all in serious trouble in 2010?
People who are not in favor of banning abortion entirely are not "pro-life."
shrinkers:
Yes, I did (on a prior thread).
Not really, Charles. That isn't a correct answer.
shma:
I do not want the FEDERAL government funding treatment of STDs. There, now you met someone who says that too.
Walker: Abortion still elicits such heightened emotion, for good reason, it is the state-sanctioned destruction of human life.
Who on this board, with a straight face, will state that its not?
I will. And, apparently, so will many pro-life people.
I don't believe that a fertilized egg is a human being. I'm pretty darn sure it has no self-awareness. I believe it is in the process of becoming a human being. I think one can draw the line at many places, but that line is going to be arbitrary to a large extent, based on intuition more than anything else. In any case, I wouldn't have a problem with aborting a clump of undifferentiated cells (as is presently done at many fertility clinics). I would have a problem with an 8-month old fetus with no medical problems without some significant danger to the woman. My intuitions here are likely in line with many others.
Apparently most pro-lifers don't really believe there is a human being at conception either. If they did, most people would not support exceptions for rape and incest, since abortion would still be murder. Yet many in the pro-life camp do support such exceptions. In addition, if abortion were the destruction of human life, then not only would the woman and the doctor have to be prosecuted for murder, but murder for hire which can be a capital offense in some states and under federal law. Yet few pro-lifers support such measures.
Some in the pro-life camp don't believe in exceptions and do believe in murder prosecutions. I respect those that have the courage of their convictions, because it's a consistent position. But the others will have to explain why some abortions are murder and some are not, or why some killings don't qualify for severe criminal prosecution. Or maybe it's because deep down most people don't believe that every abortion is the "destruction of human life" after all. It's not an unreasonable position to take, even if you disagree with it.
"Accidental" vehicular homicide does not always carry jail time. While I agree that rape and incest should not be exceptions, if that was the only way to get the other 99% of abortions banned, I can understand that compromise (of course, I would then focus on explaining to those mothers why they should not kill another innocent victim of the crime).
People who are not in favor of banning abortion entirely are not "pro-life."
But being in favor of immoral wars is pro-life?
Not caring what happens to the child after it is born is pro-life?
The people who fit your definition of pro-life, generally are for war, against programs that help parents support their children.
As for me, I believe abortion is immoral, but I can see a lot of gray and even white, not the least the terrible ordeal that Shrinkers and his wife went through.
Even though I am generally against abortion I absolutely despise most of the "pro-life" community.
DSIMON
and add the question of how these self-labeled 'PRO-LIFERS' claim that their definition of life [ie fertilized egg @ conception] ,eans all abortion = murder...
yet overwhelmingly these 'PRO-LIFERS' adamantly support the death penalty & have no qualms about militaristic wars creating death ad nauseum while also typically opposing intervention to prevent genocide [ala Darfur] & oppose birth control & oppose AIDS prevention & HIV treatment [or even STD treatment according to evil TROLL CHARLES]...
hypocrite, thy name is 'PRO-LIFE'
now, I admire people with the strength of a REAL conviction that all life [including animals] is sacred & inviolate when they are consistent across the entire spectrum [but that is rare indeed] - including demonstrating against ALL capital punishment.
THAT is a real 'pro-lifer' - but one who picks & choses is nothing more than an 'ANTI-CHOICE' imho
be consistent or STFU cuz you ARE an unchristian hypocrite
dsimon, your opinions are valid and well-stated, but let me propose a scenario for you:
Let's say you and your wife were 1-2 months into your first pregancy... the very early stages where its more or less "a clump of undifferentiated cells"...and you tragically misscarry.
Would you not weep with your wife? Would this be a tragedy for you? Why weep over this mass of cells?
Have you ever known anyone in a position like this?
This is not a flippant question.
And your point on pro-lifers not being pro-life for cases of incest and rape...they are not truly pro-lifers, in my opinion.
A human life created from even savage incestral rape is still a human being reflecting the image of God.
Human life is a transcendent miracle...something that should bring awe-inspired gasps of amazement everytime it happens!
NJ_archconservative…
Why are you ashamed of being a Republican? How can a party triumph when all its members pretend to belong to the opposition?
You must have a teeny-tiny life…
Walker…
You have a very conscientiously religious point of view regarding abortion. This is your privilege.
It is my privilege to have a different view of abortion.
Neither you nor I are entitled to impose our views regarding this subject on the other. That’s what’s meant by “separation of church and state”.
To the comments above that said that medical procedures which are legal should be included in the health plan, including Gov't subsidies:
I would like my penis enlarged to 12 inches.
My sister would like a breast enlargement.
My brother would like his nose increased to 8 inches long and shaped like a banana.
Now, these are all legal medical procedures. Should the Gov't pay for them?
@Walker -
If you read back in this thread, my wife and I were in a very similar position. And yes, we were wracked with grief for a very long time.
But the availability of safe and legal abortion procedures saved us from a horror still worse.
Nor would I deny the choice to someone else.
Now, I can see someone who claims simply to oppose abortion on whatever grounds they choose - but if they are not also rigid pacifists, and if they do not oppose the death penalty, and if they are not vegans - then they have no right to call themselves "pro-life".
My wife and I would never abort a healthy fetus. But nor would we tell someone else they may not. This is a moral decision between a woman (or a couple) and God. You and I don't have the right to interfere.
Unless you want to establish a theocracy - in which case, you live in the wrong nation.
George…
If you are on Medicare, which is a good model for how government health insurance will be run, you’ll just have to put up with your tiny penis, your sister will have to put up with her flat chest, and your brother will have to put up with his monkey-nose.
Unless of course you each save up for the operation of your choice.
By the way, how many private insurers would cover any of the operations you ask about? My guess is pretty damn few.
King David, writing about God's creation of his very own life, in Psalm 139:
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.
We are all "fearfully and wonderfully made". When you read "fear" often in the context of Scripture read "awesome" or "beyond comprehension to the digree of muteness". Not only that, but God's thoughts on our regard, individually, "outnumber the grains of sand".
Every person you meet is a miracle. Every person, Right or Left.
The gov't should never be in the business of destroying life.
Walker -
Quoting your bible is a legitimate argument in a theology class, or a seminary, or a church council. It is not relevant or convincing as an argument for lawmaking in a secular nation.
May I assume that you also oppose all wars, you wish to eliminate the death penalty, and you eat only fruit that has already fallen from the trees?
Pragmatus, all laws are the imposition of someone's views upon others.
Name me one law that is not the imposition of someone's views or opinions upon someone else.
This is not about religion but basic human rights. The unborn should be extended every right you and I enjoy.
Walker -
The unborn should be extended every right you and I enjoy.
Are you saying that "the unborn" should vote? Drive cars? Drink alcohol? Be allowed to marry? Join the military? Contribute to political campaigns? Publish newspapers? - all while still unborn?
Who on this board, with a straight face, will state that its not?
I had a feeling this thread would be drug off topic into these weeds. I could toss a bunch of grenades into the conversation like legislating morality. Octo-Mom. But suffice to say this thread was about health care reform.
But hey, before I sign off, I'll swing at the question.
I do not think abortion is state sanctioned destruction of human life.
I am pro-choice.
I am pro-life :-|
Walker:
I appreciate your position. One of the great strengths of the pro-life-without-exceptions position is its consistency.
But your original question was whether anyone could seriously contend "with a straight face" that abortion was not the "destruction of human life." You don't seem to think my position is an unreasonable one even though you disagree with it. Since you claim that my opinion is "valid," do you think people can have reasonable disagreements on when a "human life" exists? And if so, why should the minority position on the subject prevail when it comes to government policy? After all, I'm in the minority regarding lots of government policies. That's democracy.
As for your hypothetical, I would feel saddened for what my wife went through, but I would not believe that a human being had died.
George In Florida: To the comments above that said that medical procedures which are legal should be included in the health plan, including Gov't subsidies...
First, any plan that covers those procedures (even if one takes them seriously) will have higher premiums. But if one can find companies that offer them, why not treat them the same as everything else? And as a prior poster pointed out, you'll probably have difficulty finding any private insurers that do cover them.
Second, while people may have differing opinions as to what is a serious procedure and what is trivial, I'd guess that most people would not put abortion in the same category as the other procedures you listed. (Indeed, one of them has constitutional protection, at least for now.) So even if one restricts subsidies to plans that cover only serious procedures, abortion should qualify and should not be discriminated against.
Walker…
My religious belief characterizes life as beginning when the baby draws its first breath. Up until that moment, the fetus is alive within the mother’s body, but it is not a person. It is alive in the same way the mother’s arm is alive—should we give her arm legal recognition too?
There are probably ten thousand different religious views in America on when life begins. All are equally valid within a religious context. But in order to make this society function at all, the founders wisely separated religious views from the making of laws; otherwise the Congress would do nothing but debate minutiae of religious doctrine.
If you are opposed to abortion, don’t have one. Write letters to your congressperson expressing this view. But it’s the law of the land, and you are obligated to allow those persons who disagree with you to exercise their rights under the law.
Period.
ps Try to get your congressperson to read those excerpts, or any other excerpts, from the Bible, the next time he/she proposes legislation in committee. You’ll get some hasty instruction on what the separation of church and state is all about.
Yes, I picked some examples that were not necessarily serious (except the banana, my brother really wants it).
My point was that just because that it is legal, does not mean that they should be payed for by the gov't. While I am pro-choice, I don't believe that elective abortions should be subsidized. Despite some of the comments I've read on this web site and others, there is no restrictions in this ammendment which would preclude a person desiring an abortion to purchase andtional insurance, or to pay for it out of thier own pocket, which is IMHO, the correct method.
Name me one law that is not the imposition of someone's views or opinions upon someone else.
Banning Gay Rights
...oh wait.
This is not about religion but basic human rights.
Damn Straight!!
"Name me one law that is not the imposition of someone's views or opinions upon someone else."
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
@Jacob:
Actually, this law is an imposition of our forefather's opinions that these are good things. For example, while it may be my opinion that NAZIs should not be allowed to peaceably assmble in jewish neiborhoods, this law says that they have that right.
A better example would be laws governing safety i.e. we drive on the right side of the road. I don't believe that this law was made because it was someone's opion or belief that the right side of the road was better, but rather a choice was made between right and left so we didn't go crashing into each other.
"now, I admire people with the strength of a REAL conviction that all life [including animals] is sacred & inviolate when they are consistent across the entire spectrum [but that is rare indeed] - including demonstrating against ALL capital punishment."
How is it internally inconsistent to (pretend a few cells are a life and then) say an innocent life deserves better treatment than a guilty one?
"I appreciate your position. One of the great strengths of the pro-life-without-exceptions position is its consistency."
So long as you're lauding positions despite their incongruence with reality provided they're consistent, how do you feel about the anti-life-without-exceptions position? Someone who tries to outlaw abortions for women who are raped by relatives inspires something in me all right...it's not appreciation.
"Quoting your bible is a legitimate argument in a theology class, or a seminary, or a church council."
There's either good reason to think there is a god telling us what to do through a book...or there isn't. I much prefer when people are upfront about where their beliefs really come from.
"Human life is a transcendent miracle...something that should bring awe-inspired gasps of amazement everytime it happens!"
What about bedbug reproduction, or human digestion?
mikelow1885 said...
In the Senate, Nate's idea is confirmed with McCaskill's support for the amendment, as she is strongly pro-choice in a strong pro-life state.
Male bovine droppings conjecture on how McCaskill will vote or confirmed by some factual web site (in other words, Faux News, NewsMax and other Conservatard sites do not count) as to how McCalkill will vote if such an amendment is offered in the Senate?
I think it is the former:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/67105-mccaskill-now-says-she-opposes-stupak-abortion-amendment
To further indicate that you are posting male bovine droppings, McCaskill never stated that she was supporting the amendment. Nay, she stated that she could live with it.
There is a HUGE difference between when a politician says they support a measure, and when they state that they can live with a measure.
Mike in Maryland
There was also speculation that Reps were going to vote "Present", making passage of the amendment uncertain. When the Amendment would not have passed, it would have derailed the entire HC bill. And that would have been a huge embarassment for Pelosi and the Dems. Could it be that a lot of Dems voted in favor just in case some (save) Reps would have switched their vote to present
Walker: "The unborn should be extended every right you and I enjoy."
I have the right to get shot at when I'm an unwanted intruder on somebody else's property. Is that what you're hinting at?
George, come to the Netherlands.
If the procedures are technically possible (it's probably not technically possible to have your 3 inch penis enlarged to 12 inches, but keep pulling) and if you can convince both your doctor and the insurance company that the procedure is an absolute medical necessity to cure your handicap so that it will greatly improve your quality of life, it will be covered.
But to be more realistic: both the doctor and the insurance company would probably advice and offer psychotherapy. In the basic plan we have here in the Netherlands, you would get 10 sessions with a therapist a year. With some planning, you could get 20 sessions with regular intervals. When you need more, you have to pay it yourself, or you could buy an additional plan that covers more sessions.
The Stupak Amendment votes from the Democrats were almost surely a political maneuver. I'm willing to bet that the overall rationale was along the lines of "sacrificing for the greater good," in that the amendment would be seen as an olive branch to the more conservative elements of the Democratic party.
It sure as hell wasn't meant for the Republicans, at any rate. The surprising thing is that ANY Republican voted for the bill.
I support this amendment - no one has a right to have their abortion paid for, and the democracy has spoken very clearly on this. But I'm beginning to think that the whole thing is a brilliant diversion by Pelosi. It's allowing the talking heads to spend all of their time gabbing about abortion, while the Dems ram through a health care disaster that a very significant majority of the population doesn't want. They are doing so with united and bipartisan opposition. Has a program this big and this risky every had such low levels of political support? Seriously. If this doesn't go unexpectedly well, the Dems will be sitting ducks, and the bill will have a difficult time getting implemented. Everyone will just wait for the backlash election, and then the repeal. This is the real reason that a bill like this needs bipartisan support and - more importantly - strong public support. Obama has won neither of these. It's almost as if the GOP had ignored the polls and just rammed through a flat tax and social security privitization. Breathtakingly arrogant and risky. The Senate will probably bail the Dems out and kills this, but even then, people will wonder why we've spent a year going down this road, fruitlessly, when the country has such economic and security problems.
Only an asswipe would cheer for government sponsored abortion.
It's good to see these courageous Representatives are willing to sacrifice women's health care in order to ensure health care for, you know, the important people.
Tree,
"healthcare for women"
ROFL!! is that the latest euphemism for abortion/avoidance of personal responsibility?
Our government should not pay for that sort of thing. If you believe in that stuff, pay for it privately.
No, "women's health care" means just what it says. Reproductive health is an integral part of health care, especially for women (for whom the repercussions are much more significant than for men).
Flag burning is constitutionally protected (as it should be) but we don't have to pay for or subsidize the purchase of matches and flags.
This is where public is at over government paying for and/or subsidizing abortions and only elective abortions are covered by the Amendment. And Medicare for all wouldn't cover abortions any more than it would cover tattoo removal which is also legal.
Those ostensible 40 Dems who say they are going to vote down health care reform ought get their priorities straightened out.
For goodness sakes, go ahead and start your own party where anything that is (or even remotely looks like subsidized elective abortion on demand) is a higher priority than health care reform. You'd have less of following than the greens and libertarians.
Just remember, this really was and is the party of catholic immigrants and their children and grandchildren, way before it was your party.
Without the catholic social justice advocacy there would be no minimum wage laws, no child labor laws, no protection for the rights of unions, no civil rights, no social security nor medicare. And since southern WASPy conservative democrats have are now the Republican party (thankfully), it is even more important that a tiny bit of respect be paid to catholic democrats who've held their noses as too much of the Democratic party made abortion a litmus test while at the same time were for the death penalty and sent troops to Bosnia and Iraq. Without a majority of catholic vote, Obama loses.
What passes for "the Left", doesn't even know what progressive means any more. Because having existing for a century before Roe, it really doesn't have anything to do with Roe.
Do you think Kennedy decided that health care was a right not a privilege from East to West and North to South because he was a so-called liberal or because he was a Catholic?
Look at the map and consider where Obama won.
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/churchbodies.gif
And this map is from 2000. VA and NC have been gradually "northernized" as I am sure the 2010 census will show if it collects Ancestry data.
The Stupak Amendment gives Obama perfect cover, because he got up there at the joint session and said we're not having a bill that covers abortions. And he has also repeatedly said that abortion is a serious moral issue.
For those who think that secret nudge nudge wink wink is that this will be removed in conference, you are political dingbats who will be alienating a critical swing constituency - the "ok abortion may be legal by why should I have to pay for it vote." The best thing going for Pelosi is that she grew up in an ethnic town like Baltimore. Remember your roots! Do you think Tip O'Neil would have allowed and voted for Stupak - you bet.
"No, "women's health care" means just what it says. Reproductive health is an integral part of health care, especially for women (for whom the repercussions are much more significant than for men)."
It's also an issue of unborn health as well though and thus the dilemma. Can you really say that people who believe abortion is killing human life (not a small population and not a hard statement to support) should have to pay for others to have them?
I can tell you, I would have an ethical dilemma of even paying taxes at that point (not that most of the money our government spent isn't borrowed at this point anyway).
I hear the Jehovah's Witnesses want an amendment to the bill prohibiting any federal tax money from paying for blood transfusions, to no insurer in the exchange will offer this.
And the Christian Scientists demand that all insurers in the exchange be allowed only to offer prayer-only policies. This would REALLY bring down the cost of health care!
Polderboy, to equate an unborn baby under threat of abortive death and an unwanted intruder is ghastly and peverse.
The unwanted intruder is consciously making a decision to intrude upon you.
The unwanted baby is innocent.
Jacob commented:
""Name me one law that is not the imposition of someone's views or opinions upon someone else."
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Red-herring and a false choice.
Those Americans who wish to extend basic human rights to the unborn are not motivated by the establishment of a religion, they are motivated by the Constitution itself.
Would you cry foul if you lived during the heigth of the Civil Rights movement when Christians and Jews of all stripes were working together to extend basic civil rights to African-Americans? Were they trying to establish a religion?
How is it different?
Tree said...
No, "women's health care" means just what it says. Reproductive health is an integral part of health care, especially for women (for whom the repercussions are much more significant than for men).
The amendment applies to elective abortion, which is not in any way heath care. Abortion necessary to protect the mother from injury or death may still be insured.
Hey Eric I hear you...
I didn't want my taxes paying for the murder of Iraqis and American soldiers in an "elective war"--in fact I still don't.
Or to state-sponsored "elective executions," but hey it's not only my decision.
The real problem with the Stupak Amendment is not the ban on abortions covered by Medicaid (already banned) or the Public Option, but the ban on private insurers covering the procedure if they so choose.
Walker, I'm not disputing the motivations of the pro-life movement.
In fact all of the pro-life people I know are sincere and acting out of the best possible impulses. Some are also pro-choice and some are not. Some take their position from religion and some do not. That's all well and good.
As it happens, all of the pro-lifers I know also oppose wars of choice and support available contraception and appropriate sex education, and most oppose the death penalty, so I respect their views as consistent.
But you asked me to name a law that is not the imposition of someone's views upon someone else. I named the First Amendment--not to suggest anything about your movement--but to name such a law apropos of nothing.
I see abortion as an equal protection issue. If you give a fetus status as a human, then by allowing him to occupy the reproductive organs of a woman for 9 months against the wishes without her consent, then you are saying the rights of the fetus trump the rights of the woman.
OK, but then let's say that I want to occupy the same woman's reproductive organs without her consent, and I only want 9 minutes, not 9 months. Now the rights of the woman's rights trump my rights, and I'll end up in jail for decades.
Abortion bans are a 14th amendment issue, implying that a fetus has more rights than I do. As long as we're consistent, I'm on board.
brian said, "Someone who tries to outlaw abortions for women who are raped by relatives inspires something in me all right...it's not appreciation."
What you are saying is that a fetus's right to live depends on who his father is. Is it okay to kill children whose fathers are rapists or relatives, but less okay to kill children of men who don't fit into these categories? It's just a small step from there to saying it's okay to kill the children whose fathers were black, or Jewish, or Republican, or one-eyed.
If we went that route, Sammy Davis, Jr. would never have had any progeny. A sobering thought.
Good chance this was a tactical vote, at least for some: pass the Stupak amendment to get the bill approved by the house and then hope that either it gets removed, or at least watered down, during the reconciliation process with the Senate.
Jacob: The First Amendment seems rather obviously to deny those people who believe that there should be an established religion in government.
Further, there are many instances where the First Amendment has been interpreted wildly against some people's desires - the Skokie march comes to mind.
"It's just a small step from there to saying it's okay to kill the children whose fathers were black, or Jewish, or Republican, or one-eyed.
If we went that route, Sammy Davis, Jr. would never have had any progeny. A sobering thought."
Of course he would have if his wife chose to stay pregnant, which she did. Women who were victims of rape and incest may choose to keep the baby, and most do. That's the whole point of reproductive choice--it's a choice.
And I can see the logic of those on the pro-life side who want to make exceptions for cases where the woman had absolutely no choice in becoming pregnant--I think there's a way to make that logically consistent.
@Persuter
Hmm fair enough. How about the Fourth Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
@David
Also, Sammy Davis Jr. famously voted for Nixon but was otherwise a lifelong Democrat--let's not dishonor the man's memory here.
@Jacob
What about people who don't believe in privacy over security?
I think whomever made the point about the side of the road we drive on had the better example. Rules such as these are standards enacted for efficiency and safety rather than opinion (technically driving on the left is just as good, as long as everyone sticks to the rule).
The vast majority of laws are enacted because in someone's (probably a lot of someones) opinion, the law would do more good than harm. Very few laws are purely objective.
Let's for the sake of argument conceded the point that laws are often enacted over someone's objection, and sometimes enforced against the desire of the people who object. This cuts both ways. The anti-choice people can can argue this point gives the the right to pass an anti-abortion law over the objections of pro-choice people. But equally, it gives pro-choice people the right to pass a law allowing abortions - even one allowing government funding - over the objections of anti-choicers.
"Government funding" - the Feds spend money on a lot of things. I bet that for any given person, there is something the Feds spend money on that they disapprove of - illegal wars, the arts, public education, bailouts for corporations, unemployment compensation - etc. That's what happens in a democracy - you don't always get your way, and sometimes the government does some things you don't like. Be an adult, for crissake, and realize that yours is not the only set of interests in a society of 300 million + people.
I suspect Costa (CA-20) voted in favor of the Stupak Amendment to place a poison pill into the underlying health reform bill, which he opposes. Now he can campaign on the basis of having supported health care reform, even though he hopes the attempt will fail.
I haven't read all the comments here but it is perfectly rational to be pro-choice and be for the Stupak Amendment. That is more or less my position. I believe that women should have the right to choose abortion.
But I also don't really believe abortion is health care. It is a relatively inexpensive elective procedure that does not address a sickness or improve the health of a patient like all other things we think of as health care.
As things currently stand, most Americans do not have health care that covers abortion, and most abortions are paid for out of pocket. Given that, I realize that real access to abortion probably isn't going to change due to the Stupak Amendment. And if this is the price we have to pay to pass HCR, I'm perfectly fine with that.
And let me be very clear: This is the price that needs to be paid. Liberals throwing a giant hissy fit are going to put this bill in a position where it won't pass. If we work hard enough we can successfully avoid public funding for not only abortion, but also cancer, broken bones, monthly check ups, and all other medical procedures. So keep up the good work!
Two obvious but overlooked points:
1. Abortion is not a church state issue. NONE of the jurisprudence on the matter centrally concerns this. It is all a question of the so-called right to privacy and its limits. The "don't impose your religion on me" line is increasingly used as a browbeating tactic by the left, but in this instance - as in most others - its a complete and utter red herring.
2. The comparisons to Iraq etc, as in, I didn't support the war in Iraq, but that doesn't mean I don't have to pay for it. No, it doesn't, because not enough of your fellow citizens agreed with you. Opposition to the war in Iraq, when it mattered, was not as strong in democratic terms as opposition to tax-payer funded abortions (which is enormous - 65-70 percent). No one has a right to tax payer funded abortions. Nor do they have a right to a war in Iraq. Such questions are being decided by the democracy, and appropriately so.
3. I find it revealing how many of you prochoice folks will only speak of the tough cases: health of the mother etc. Fine - most of us are agreed that choice must prevail in those cases (when they are legit). But don't kid yourself - the vast majority of abortions are elective, for convenience only. The couple that got drunk at a frat party and didn't use birth control is far, far more common than the anquished parents of a dead but still in utero fetus. So grow up and face up to what abortion on demand actually means, and then you might get some sense as to why opposition to it is growing. It is rarely about the health of the mother, despite misleading polls questions which prattle on about a "woman and her doctor" constantly. And where it is, choice is protected, as in this amendment. That argument is utterly empty.
Removing a dead but still in utero fetus is no more an "abortion" than a post-mortum autospy on a 90 year old is. Maybe the technique (D&C) is the same, but there's no PRO-LIFE person objecting to removing DEAD babies. It's the KILLING of babies who are alive that's the issue. Denying that they are human life is a slippery slope too.
In more good news, pro-abortion WH Communications Director, Anita Dunn, is finally stepping down. The tide is turning . . .
Serious question:
As a male, is it possible to get these so-called 'abortion riders' that would apply partners of mine? Or are these abortion riders entirely theoretical right now?
@Jeff
Right--whether or not taxes pay for reproductive health is a question for our elected representatives to decide; I don't think anyone is questioning that. It's a bad decision on their part, but I notice that you haven't shied away from criticizing what you believe to be bad decisions just because they are made through appropriate venues.
Whether or not the government should have the power to restrict what a private insurer can provide to their clients, or to whom they may offer their plans, is a much trickier question, and not one with such an obvious majoritarian answer as you so glibly imply.
If you'll read the comments on this board you'll probably notice that the pro-choice folks here are not ashamed to be pro-choice. At lest with first-trimester cases, it is always always always a case that we believe should be between a woman and her doctor--and the government has no right to question her motives.
You can disagree with that sentiment--and disagreement is perfectly valid--but no one here is hiding behind easy cases.
And "abortion on demand" as the right likes to call it, much like "chemotherapy on demand" or "heart surgery on demand" means that people who seek out an abortion do not have to justify themselves to some sort of bureaucrat to determine whether or not their case is valid.
I may not agree with the woman's decision every time or even most of the time, but it is her decision. Whether you want to take that right away from her for religious or secular reasons really doesn't matter--we will defend that right either way.
By the way, I think there's a rather obvious point here that everyone's overlooking - it's not like every single bit of HCR is going to be set in stone forever and ever amen. The Hyde Amendment changed existing law, after all. People can start working on getting rid of the Stupak provisions the day the reconciled bill is signed.
And if people can't get the votes to overturn the Stupak provisions post-bill, why in the world would we be able to get rid of them in the bill itself?
@Charles
I doubt you've ever met anyone who is pro-abortion.
And Anita Dunn (always an interim director BTW) is pro-choice, like most of the US. Her replacement, Dan Pfeiffer, is also pro-choice.
If you are unable to differentiate those concepts, do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?
I have indeed stared down pro-abortionists, and I don't care if YOU take me seriously, that's for sure. I will keep working until the WH Communications Director (and PRESIDENT) is pro-life.
In more good news, pro-abortion WH Communications Director, Anita Dunn, is finally stepping down. The tide is turning . . .
:facepalm: Charles, she's the INTERIM White House Communications Director. She explicitly turned down the communications directorship when it was offered to her at the beginning of the term.
So, it was just a "coincidence" that she's stepping down after stepping in the Mao controversy?
"I have indeed stared down pro-abortionists, and I don't care if YOU take me seriously, that's for sure. I will keep working until the WH Communications Director (and PRESIDENT) is pro-life"
Charles just because people have realized arguing with you is a waste of time does not mean that you have stared down anybody.
You had a pro-life President. He was the worst president in the history of this nation. And he could do nothing about this issue.
DEM_in_Virginia:
I have personally met "Doctor" Leroy Carhart -- rest assured, he doesn't think that Bush 43 "did nothing" on this issue -- and, if Carhart's not "pro-abortion" then I don't know who is short of Satan himself.
Needless to say, I disagree that Bush43 was the worst President in the history of this nation.
Many Catholics are pro-life Democrats who are both anti-abortion and supportive of Health Care Reform.
This coupled with some strategic voting, where choice but not direct support is their priority, seems to be the clearest explaination.
It's a bit of a kick in the [figurative] cajones for middle to lower class women, and their housholds. But frankly it isn't entirely clear that this ammendment actually changes what the outcome would be. All it does is avoid a court challenge claiming that Federal funding of abortion is occuring.
So if this gets the Bill through, and works as a bargining chip to get a better Public Option and/or insurance prices down and overall coverage true to advertisement, so be it. *shrug*
More evidence of Republican men, and their deep respect for women. This time, lets talk about Republican number uno- Rupert Murdoch - and his cronies:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/10/shocking-allegations-levi_n_352314.html
Then you would know that "Doctor" Leroy Carhart is pro-choice, "Charles." Even (actually, especially) OBGYNs understand how important it is for reproductive decisions to be a choice.
Pro-abortion might be used to describe China's government under Mao or Tom DeLay's buddies in Saipan. Once again you fail to understand the difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion.
Just as people who are really really social democrats are in a different spectrum than totalitarians who call themselves socialists, so people who are really really pro-choice in a different spectrum than those who are pro-abortion.
And "Satan," by the way, was an avid pro-lifer:
http://cdn.dipity.com/uploads/events/37fba8a20685b7c7b6d8ce15bb3868c3.jpg
So, it was just a "coincidence" that she's stepping down after stepping in the Mao controversy?
No, it is not a "coincidence".
Main Entry: co·in·ci·dence
Pronunciation: \kō-ˈin(t)-sə-dən(t)s, -sə-ˌden(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 1605
1 : the act or condition of coinciding : correspondence
2 : the occurrence of events that happen at the same time by accident but seem to have some connection
Beck brought up her comments three weeks ago - she's not stepping down until the end of the month. She always planned to step down - indeed, she's been there a couple of months longer than was originally planned already. Trying to cast this as like Van Jones, who stepped down from a permanent position days after the 9/11 petition thing came out, is simply misleading.
speaking as an englishman, I must admit to finding the pro-choice/pro-life debate confusing. It simply isn't an issue here politically. I happen to believe that this is because we are a far more secular society than the US with, strangely enough, more of a belief in the rights of the individual to decide (despite the common position that the US is the land of the free).
Bradford:
Do you still think that McCain picked Palin as a mistress and not a running mate?
Persuter:
Thanks for your opinion.
Peter Wolf:
Don't get me started on land of the FREE!!!
@Charles
You don't believe that? I'm surprised - normally it is Republicans who seem to believe this the most, and Democrats who realise that it is essentially propaganda...
Obamacare will not make the U.S. "free".
@Charles
only complete anarchism would make any country free. The closest to a purely anarchic country in the entire world right now is Somalia.
It's not something worth aiming for.
Anarchy is NOT "freedom" either. I'm talking about Ronald Reagan's FOUR PILLARS OF FREEDOM. That's the best way to allow people to be free (I will be right back with those for you).
Ronald Reagan's FOUR PILLARS OF FREEDOM:
1) Individual Liberty
As President, Ronald Reagan believed that every person must be respected for his or her unique and undeniable value, and he worked to build a nation where advancement and success are based primarily on one’s individual ability and effort.
Through his program of "new federalism," President Reagan restored decision-making power to states and communities — thus granting more direct authority to American citizens — and ushering in a new era of limited government.
2) Economic Opportunity
Elected in 1980 as the first conservative U.S. President in over 50 years, Ronald Reagan introduced domestic policies that encouraged free market principles. His programs demonstrated that the engine of prosperity would be fueled by the empowered and not the entitled.
By the end of President Reagan’s two terms, the United States was fully engaged in the longest period of uninterrupted peacetime growth and prosperity in her entire history.
3) Global Democracy
President Reagan was a chief architect of the end of the Cold War. Twenty years ago, yesterday, the Berlin Wall came down because Reagan went there and challenged Gorbachev to tear it down. Under a policy he called "Peace Through Strength," President Reagan achieved his goal by building up America’s defense, reinvigorating morale within the armed services, and clearly defining the struggle against communism in terms of good and evil. Government exists to allow men (and women) the best opportunities to excel. That's what "freedom" means.
President Reagan also championed a re-armed and strong military and introduced the concept of the Strategic Defense Initiative, which ultimately led the USSR to economic disaster.
In 1987, President Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev signed the historic treaty on Intermediate Nuclear Forces which for the first time reduced the number of weapons deployed. It was at this summit that President Reagan introduced the famous phrasing of an old Russian proverb, "trust but verify."
4) National Pride
After years of economic hardship and a troubling loss of American prestige around the world — including the taking of American hostages in Iran — voters swept Ronald Reagan into the Presidency in 1980 in a landslide, 489 electoral votes to 49 for President Jimmy Carter.
Through his unshakeable belief in the fundamental decency and kindness of the American people and their unlimited potential to achieve, President Reagan is widely credited for restoring hope to the nation, and having "made Americans feel good about themselves," [Reverend Billy Graham, January 1997].
Blogger Charles said...
"Anarchy is NOT "freedom" either. I'm talking about Ronald Reagan's FOUR PILLARS OF FREEDOM. That's the best way to allow people to be free (I will be right back with those for you)."
Eh, you've posted 'em before. Save yourself the trouble.
Frankly, we can't determine whether "Obamacare" will make us free (or freer) since there is no such program.
But I think most people around the world and in the US agree that people are "freer" if they're not saddled with health care debt and struggling to pay for basic care/coping with devastating health problems that they can't afford to treat.
You think that living with these burdens around their necks makes people freer. That's fine, but provide support for that argument rather than taking it as a given. Reagan clearly agreed with that point, but an appeal to authority does not prove it.
Too late. Also, you know what Obamacare is (I can post the transcript of his "outline" in a speech given to Congress less than two months ago, if you've already forgotten). Whatever he signs IS Obamacare.
P.S. some people would be fooled into thinking that they are "free" if their housing, food, and clothes were all provided by the government too. Kinda like "slaves" on a plantation . . .
Ronald Reagan = Individual Liberty? Ronald Reagan's insane campaign against the judicial branch resulted in the greatest rollback of constitutional protections of the individual in the history of our nation. That alone should be sufficient to crumble that particular pillar. Not to mention all the OTHER stuff.
Richard:
I agree that O'Connor and Kennedy were poor choices.
@Charles
I'll just look at #3 for now. Reagan signed in 87 etc.
You're talking about what was essentially SALT III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Arms_Reduction_Treaty
and wasn't signed until 1991.
Besides, I thought that the current talking point was that Bush43 was the worst President in the history of this nation? Let me know when you guys decide on that.
Ah, so people are only free if they can't afford their housing, food, and clothes, eh? Interesting theory. Again one that St. Ronnie would wholeheartedly agree with.
But back to your logical fallacies: you mention any bill signed by Obama is Obamacare. You say that Obamacare will make us unfree. You try to prove this by implying that government-provided care will make us free (which is specious and fallacious in itself but no matter).
And yet...
No bill that could reach Obama's desk will provide government-funded health care for all.
Your premise does not hold once again.
No, Peter Wolf, INF Treaty was signed on December 8, 1987:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_Forces_Treaty
Well, that's good Charles. See, now you're learning. Now, lets just discuss how Scalia is even worse than those two jokers, and we'll be getting somewhere.
Seriously though, Reagan and individual liberty? I can't even imagine how he or you could say that with a straight face.
*Sorry
by implying that government-provided care will make us UNfree
And progressives btw are allowed to disagree with each other. I know, novel concept for some others.
Some believe W was the worst POTUS and some say the Gipper, while others would say Tyler, Buchanan, a Johnson, Hayes, Coolidge and so on so forth...
ah fair enough. Not that it matters much - there were treaties before him, and treaties after....his was one of quite a few.
Richard:
Since you probably can't imagine how fighting for the LIVES of unborn children protects their individual liberties, I'd hardly call you an expert on the subject.
Expert on the subject? How does one become an expert on the subject?
But lets say you're right, for arguments sake. Of course, we'd have to count all of the victims of his wars, covert ops, weapons sales, etc. against him too for helping to limit their liberty.
What else you got?
I am only concerned about AMERICAN lives (as any U.S. President should be). Honduran and Afghan lives aren't even worth discussing. If you've got some issue that's killed more than 40 MILLION American lives, please let me know.
btw - Bush - worst in history who knows, but awful without a doubt
1)Took over at a time of economic strength
2)Massively increased government debt
3)Countries growth rates actually declined from Clinton years
4)Left country in awful economic situation
5)Sent tens of billions on wars
6)Set up a concentration camp deliberately off US soil (as it wouldn't have been legal there)
7)Sat and twiddled his fingers whilst towers fell
8)Awful public image in other nations which negatively affected view of the US
There are probably loads more but I believe that will do for now...history will not treat him kindly.
@Charles
How can the foetus be American when it hasn't even been born yet? That's just ridiculous.
Also, you know what Obamacare is (I can post the transcript of his "outline" in a speech given to Congress less than two months ago, if you've already forgotten). Whatever he signs IS Obamacare.
EITHER what he signs is Obamacare OR we already know what it is. It cannot be both.
Unless you would now like to assert that you can see the future.
Congress has the power to grant citizenship to children in utero (that way the 14th Amendment would protect them from being killed).
@Charles
I am only concerned about AMERICAN lives
And you claim to be pro-life? and a Christian?
Well, those claims are gone. You're a fraud and a poseur.
Anyone else want to talk? Other than Charles?
Persuter:
Obamacare is currently the PLAN and (assuming it does get signed) how that plan gets carried out. I do not see the future. Next question?
Peter Wolf:
Bush43 was not "awful without a doubt" (we at least got the ban on human embryonic stem cell research, partial-birth abortion, AND Roberts / Alito on the Supreme Court ; )
HAHAHAHA, you're a joke right? And nice one, Peter Wolf.
Ok, so there's so much wrong with this that its not even funny. First of all, Americans were killed as a result of his acts (care to venture how many Americans have died in Afghanistan from weapons Reagan ordered to him)? What about giving Hussein chemical weapons? Don't you think that caused maybe part of our wars with him? Attributing all those American deaths there as limitations on their liberty is fair, then.
Not to mention the utter shortsightedness of your comments. This type of shortsightedness is what has half the world thinking we're monsters even though we're not.
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