One year out, how many losses might we project for Nancy Pelosi’s House majority? Which Democrats are most vulnerable? Piggybacking on the post I wrote last week after attending the latest Cook Political Report political briefing at their Watergate offices, I'll take a look the analysis by CPR’s David Wasserman, and perhaps tweak it a bit.
Wasserman identified five factors--in chart above, the five columns starting with "CT" for "cap-n-trade"--that might be indicators of vulnerability for House Democratic incumbents next year:
- 1. Did they vote “yes” on the so-called cap-and-trade bill?
- 2. Is their district’s Partisan Voting Index—a measure produced for CPR by Polidata which reflects the partisan performance of the major parties’ presidential candidates during the 2004 and 2008 cycles—scored at D+5 or less?
- 3. Is their district’s PVI R+5 or more?
- 4. Was their 2008 popular vote 55 percent or less?
- 5. Does their opponent have at least $100,000 cash on hand as of 9/30/09?
Wasserman included the cap-and-trade vote, he says, because voting for it may be particularly dangerous for Democrats from districts containing significant chunks of those white working-class areas depicted in that now-famous map of the 22 percent of counties nationally where John Kerry in 2004 outperformed Barack Obama in 2008. "In the rural areas of the South—the parts of the South were Barack Obama did worse than John Kerry in 2004—there is an open revolt against Democrats and particularly Barack Obama," said Wasserman. He cited as specific evidence of this revolt from last week the coal-heavy and thus highly cap-and-trade resistant 3rd Delegate District in the southwest corner Virginia, the Appalachian county that uniquely borders both Kentucky and West Virginia. Mark Warner got 61% of the vote in 2001 in District 3, Tim Kaine dropped to 49% in 2005, Obama slipped further to 40% last year, and Creigh Deeds plummeted to just 32% last week. "In places like this all across the South," Wasserman quipped, "as Toby Keith would say, ‘the fit’s gonna hit the shan.’ ”
For kicks, I decided to add two factors/columns to Wasserman's analysis. The first is for the recent vote on the House health care bill ("HC"), on which 39 Democrats voted nay. (A good list and analysis of the 39 can be found in the New York Times.) Those Democrats are explaining their votes in a variety of ways, and of course a "nay" vote may be the potentially more electorally damaging for many Democrats. But, for the sake of argument, let's presume that voting for the House bill is an added risk factor for 16 of the 28 who voted "aye."
I also added a column showing the comparative cash-on-hand advantage (or in some cases disadvantage) for each of these 28 incumbent Democrats ("Ratio"). I calculated this as cash-on-hand minus outstanding debts as of September 30, 2009 (data courtesy of the Center for Responsive Politics here), and then created an incumbent-to-challenger COH ratio by dividing the incumbent's COH by the challenger's. This relative money advantage is useful because (a) it contextualizes the financial competitiveness of challengers who have cleared the $100K bar relative to the incumbent they aim to unseat, as least as of 9/30/09; and, relatedly, (b) because the party committees (DCCC, NRCC) look at fundraising competitiveness as one indicator of challenger strength, the smaller this ratio is for the incumbent the smaller still it could become, as the RNCC and strategic givers gravitate to races they believe will yield better returns on their investments. For lack of a better cut point, I counted as another risk point any Democrat who does not presently enjoy a 3:1 or better COH ratio. (I rounded up OH's Boccieri ratio to 3; all others below that gained a point.)
I'm not quibbling with Wasserman's analyses. Maybe the health care vote will not be very predictive next November, and surely there will be some well-funded incumbents who lose and others who win despite well-funded challengers. I'm just updating the analysis to include one new policy factor and one updated political factor. One could also set different (wider?) thresholds for the PVI ratings, and so on.
In any case, the way I've done it stratifies these 28 into three groups, including those who may be most at risk among the at-risk: the ones score a "6." (Kratovil was the only one with a chance for a "7," but he voted "nay" on the health care bill.) There are not a lot of members from those Appalachian-area districts who voted for the health care bill--which is ironic, given that some of them represent districts with high uninsured rates, but let's not even go there right now. NH's Carol Shea-Porter and northern Virginia's Gerry Connolly are good examples members who may be helped by voting "aye." On the other hand, those who are from such areas and voted "nay" may still face money problems, like AL's Bobby Bright and MS's Travis Childers.
We'll just have to wait a year to see how much these key votes and the candidates' finances matter come 2010 midterm Election Day.

342 comments
I like it. One other factor not yet included is the current abortion debate raging among Democrats:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29393.html
Thanks Tom. I'll bookmark it and return in 51 weeks. I'm more optimistic about the D's chances in 2010 in general than most, since I think the economy will be in far better shape by then. But after traveling to a blood-red state this past weekend, I will second the statement that a segment of the population is irate over the direction of the country.
@Just John
I'm more optimistic about the D's chances in 2010 in general than most, since I think the economy will be in far better shape by then.
I'm not so confident about the health of the economy a year from now. We seem to be entering a jobless recovery and seem to need a serious jobs stimulus, perhaps to the tune of a trillion dollars. Between blue dogs representing districts opposed to such things and Republicans who see a bad economy as helping them in 2010 and 2012, a substantial stimulus is not going to happen.
Here is an interesting fact to consider from 2006 when it comes to challenger funding:
7 Republican incumbents faced Democratic challengers who raised over $2.75 million. 5 of them were re-elected. In what Hotline rated among the top 20 races in 2006 right before the election, there were 13 Republican incumbents who faced Democrats who raised less than $2.75 just 1 of them was re-elected
"most endangered" "maybe"
this is "maybe" stuff
i find your perceptions informative
and am disappointed when you get into the "maybe" stuff put out by others who seem to have nothing more to do
might be interesting stuff
like fantasy football, interesting and fun with friends, co-workers and o
but definitely not important stuff
In addition to these "weak" Democratic seats, there are plenty more first-time seats elected in moderate to conservative Districts only because of higher turnout for Obama last year. That won't be likely next year.
Watch NC in about 4 years. The state requires redistricting after every census. Appalachia is not gaining in population. This is the area where your troublesome blue-dogs hail from.
http://ncbilldrafting.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/2010-census-projections-and-redistricting-2009-update/
http://southnow.org/southnow-publications/Datanet%20Oct%202009_No%2049.pdf
Note the growth in Wake and Mecklenburg, both urban non-Appalachian blue counties. Also redistricting will be done now after the lawsuit spawned by the redistricting 10 years ago (referenced in first link):
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2003/094-02-2.htm
The anti-district gerrymandering suit. So, we'll see how successful either party is in the next round of district gerrymandering after the census in NC since it will be even harder the second time after that suit.
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/GIS/RandR07/Overview.html
Dems now solidly control the state legislatures for this upcoming round of redistricting. So, the point to watch is what changes are made in the federal House districts after the next census, as NC state law requires that they also be redrawn (not just the state level districts) after every 10 year census.
Tom, it seems like an interesting addendum to this article, if possible, would be to similarly rate incumbent Democrats in 2008, and see which ones won or lost. Obviously the cap-and-trade column won't be there, but the rest seem like they will still have relevance. Did they win by 55% in 2006, does their challenger have more than some amount of money, etc. etc.
Also, the $100,000 bar seems oddly low, given that all the challengers but one meet it, and all the incumbents but three have $300,000 or more.
Certainly some of these Democrats strike me as pretty safe seats. Giffords comes rather quickly to mind. She's got 1.4 million on hand right now and is just barely under the 55% line. (Wikipedia says she won by 56%.) She seems particularly safe given that she won't be contending with McCain's coattails in Arizona in 2010.
Another obvious one is Ike Skelton. Sure, he's in a heavily Republican district - but that didn't stop him winning it for the last thirty years. :P
In both cases they match four out of the five "risk factors" but neither seem particularly likely to lose. Some of these guys are dead in the water for sure, like Minnick, but in general I'm not sure this chart has much predictive power.
(And where is Chet Edwards on here? Is it simply that he doesn't have a challenger with $100,000? Seems like another pretty scary district for the Democrats.)
To counter balance the tally, you need to do the same analysis for the GOP. I live in a district (Ventura, Ca), that voted strongly for Obama, it has high unemployment, lots of people losing their homes and health care, but our GOP congressman is lock step with his no votes. I think it will be "game on" year.
The Cook Political Report lists 78 Democratic seats as "potentially competitive." Next year could be a blood bath comparable to 1994.
puarau:
That same Cook Report cites to only 27 "potentially competitive" Republican seats. Which district are you in?
Tom, you need to honestly show these numbers in say Oct 2010 and see how well you did. I have seen a number of studies of such prognostication 12 months out, and the results are not encouraging in years where there is a lot of flux (as now).
You think C&T is a big factor, but whether anyone cares will depend on the economy and other factors come Oct and Nov next year. Likewise for healthcare and other measures.
It could just as well be a further bloodbath for the Republicans depending on how much they alienate independents and moderate Republican voters.
Many good comments, and a good general analysis by Nate
*
What would BoyGenius Karl Rove say?
ROVE: No, you are not. I'm looking at 68 polls a week for candidates for the US House and US Senate, and Governor and you may be looking at 4-5 public polls a week that talk attitudes nationally.
I'm looking at all of these Robert and adding them up. I add up to a Republican Senate and Republican House. You may end up with a different math but you are entitled to your math and I'm entitled to THE math.
October 24, 2006
Yup.
Only days before the 2006 midterm, BoyGenius went told the nation the teabaggers would WIN the house and senate. In the end, the teabaggers lost 31 s3eats in the house and 6 seats in the senate.
@HA!
Jenny:
Rove was wrong (or maybe he was lying). Are you also saying that about the analysis by CPR’s David Wasserman?
http://www.cookpolitical.com/charts/house/competitive_2009-10-29_11-17-06.php
It's also interesting that all but three of these candidates won with a majority of the vote, and many by margins of 10 points or more. Hell, Skelton won by 32 points in a deep red district (as he has for decades).
Some of these Democrats are undoubtedly screwed--even in a good year we probably lose Kratovil, Bright, Perriello, Minnick, and maybe Teague.
But even those with 6 points on a fairly arbitrary scale might not be in such bad shape. Kilroy's district, for example, has been growing more favorable to Democrats, as has McNerney's. Snyder and Hill have survived tough years before, and Dr. Kagen (even if his fundraising is weak), can pour millions of his own money into the race if need be (Wisconsin has also been trending much bluer in recent years).
Overall it seems like there are too many factors not taken into account and others not weighted properly (i.e. CT vs. winning margins) to derive much from this analysis.
You are lying to yourselves just as badly if you don't think that the Democrats are going to lose any seats this time around. Keep in mind that there was "only" a 54-seat swing in membership from Democrats to Republicans in 1994, where the Republican Party gained a majority of seats in the House for the first time since 1954. It can happen again.
At least Jacob sees the light :)
@Charles
I'm saying one of the most thought of political analyst completely missed the election results when it was only days away.
A lesser analyst, predicting an election a year over the horizon would surely be less accurate.
I mean only a fool would predict next year's World Series today.
For even a prediction made days before the series begins is subject to great variability.
I wonder how many people in November 2007 thought Obama would be the nominee, let alone win teabagg'n strong holds of Indiana, North Carolina, and Virgina (rural states the Dems had not won since 1964).
Moral of the story: no one can see with any accuracy electon results deep over the horizon.
I would like an answer to the following question: assuming the GOP wins the same percentage of southern white, conservative and evangelical / born-again Christian votes as in 1994, will they win back the House again?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_1994
Does anyone have comparable figures for the 2006 and 2008 elections? I suspect (hope) that demographic changes make it much harder for the GOP to assemble a majority coalition by simply recreating their 1994 coalition, though.
MARCU$
Actually, that's wrong (as political analysts AND Vegas bookies have already predicted the 2010 midterms and World Series correctly -- current odds are on the Yankees again -- the hard part is figuring out which analysts and bookies ; )
http://www.vegasinsider.com/by-the-book/story.cfm/story/922531
Sorry (my last post was for Jenny, just in case she wants to bet on against the Yankees next year).
@Charles
I didn't say no one would make s prediction, rather only a fool would make a prediction.
David Wasserman is hardly a "fool" (especially if he's correct : )
@Charles
Err ... How can they have predicted the 2010 Mid term elections and world series correctly ?
There's also an historical point to be made here. While a swing to the minority party following a major win by the other party is fairly common, back to back opposite sweeps are not.
No party has gained control of both houses of Congress and then lost it within two terms since 1954 (when the Senate was in fact very close), and such events are historically uncommon.
Major "wave" elections like 1930-34, 1946, 1958, 1974, 1980, 1986, 1994, and 2006-08 are not necessarily stand-alone events, but they are almost never followed by an immediate "wave" of similar proportions in the other direction.
Generally a party in power is given some time to act before being swept out, and the Democrats can make a strong case that they are cleaning up the messes of the past 30 years.
The most recent such set of waves I can think of is 1892 and 1894.
Again, Democrats will very likely lose some ground, perhaps even in the historically average 20-30 net House loss and a few Senate seats range, but the bloodbath predicted by some far-right prognosticators seems unlikely.
Voters have given Republicans many chances to lead the nation in recent years and they have f***ed up to an almost unimaginable degree. That disaster will not soon be forgotten.
You are lying to yourselves just as badly if you don't think that the Democrats are going to lose any seats this time around.
I don't think any reasonable political analyst believes they're not going to lose any seats - with the exception of 1998, the out-of-power party has always gained seats in midterms since 1934.
But I seriously doubt we're going to lose 50 like in 1994. I think a pretty reasonable number is that we'll lose pretty much exactly as many as we gained in 2008, around 20.
Then 2012 is going to be tough for you guys, unless the economy tanks or Obama gets extremely unpopular.
@Jacob
Never under estimate the voter. While back to back opposite sweeps are historically unlikely we are also in uncharted territories with regards to economy and wars
Charles, the difference between today and 1994 are two-fold: demographics have changed substantially and the Republicans are not thought of in high regards. In fact, polls show the public is still very distrustful of the Republicans. Unless that changes, a "blood-bath" is not going to happen.
Then again, two of the last three midterms have seen the President's party gain seats (although neither followed a particularly defining election). These are the only two such cases in the past seventy-five years, so maybe the trend is changing.
If the teabagging movement proves to be as bad a misread of the general public as impeachment was eleven years ago, or if Obama can really harness the economic issues as W did with security in 2002, we could see a fairly good year for Democrats.
Gallup shows the GOP leading the congressional ballot question too.
From Gallup
The overall results would predict a likely strong Republican showing if the House elections were held today. Though the registered-voter results reported here speak to the preferences of all eligible voters, voter turnout is crucial in determining the final outcome of midterm elections. Gallup will not begin to model likely turnout until much closer to the 2010 elections, but given that Republicans usually have a turnout advantage, if normal turnout patterns prevail in the coming election, prospects for a good Democratic showing appear slim. Of course, the elections are still nearly 12 months away and conditions could shift back in the Democrats' favor over this time.
Since Gallup regularly began using the generic ballot to measure registered voters' preferences for the House of Representatives in 1950, it has been rare for Republicans to have an advantage over Democrats. This is likely because more Americans usually identify as Democrats than as Republicans, but Republicans can offset this typical Democratic advantage in preferences with greater turnout on Election Day. Most of the prior Republican registered-voter leads on the generic ballot in Gallup polling occurred in 1994 and 2002, two strong years for the GOP.
Roughly a year before the 2010 midterm elections, Republicans seem well-positioned to win back some of their congressional losses in 2006 and 2008. Independents are increasingly coming to prefer the Republican candidate for Congress, and now favor the GOP by 22 points. Political conditions could still shift between now and Election Day to create a more favorable environment for Democratic candidates, but a Republican lead on the generic ballot among registered voters has been a sign of a strong Republican showing at the polls in the coming election.
Typically the GOP only leads in blowout years like 1994 and 2002.
If you guys think that supporting the health care bill is going to be MORE BENEFICIAL to MORE DEMOCRATS - you're nuts. You're already bleeding independents. It's only going to get worse if you keep supporting this bill that the public does not want.
"Typically the GOP only leads in blowout years like 1994 and 2002."
And of course in the 2002 elections, compounded by Republican redisticting and the smear job on Wellstone, they gained a grand total of eight seats in the House and two in the Senate, while losing two net governorships.
Jacob,
How did they do in the senate?
Actually in 2002, the GOP gained seats when almost every pundit expected them to lose and when they had many more seats to defend.
And I don't remember the smear job on Wellstone. I remember a bunch of hippies turning a memorial into a partisan pep rally.
...unless the economy tanks or Obama gets extremely unpopular.
I'd posit that the first part of this statement goes hand in hand with the latter and would be more appropriately joined by an "and" rather than an "or."
I just don't see a situation where the economy "tanks" (how do you define that, really? and couldn't it still be considered in the tank? and Obama remains popular.
Ah yes GOPer, as I said they picked up two net seats in the Senate.
And I remember the actual memorial service as well as the GOP media spin that made it look like a pep rally.
But who should I believe, right, my own eyes or Rush?
Jacob,
There's also something else to consider. A GOP House gain of 8 in 2002 was actually pretty darned good. If the generic congressional ballot in 2002 was R+4 as Gallup says it is today - that means many more losses for Democrats next year. Why? Because in 2002 the GOP already held most of the swing states. Now the Democrats have all these blue dogs in marignal areas. R+4 generic ballot will yield many more seats next year for the GOP than what was possible in 2002.
The economy and however it shakes out aside, Obama is in danger of owning the Afghanistan War. Bush will forever be tied to the Iraq conflict, but Obama's escalation of this conflict and poor decision-making in the process will only exacerbate this country's war fatigue over the next few years.
He has a chance to bring the troops home and let them defend this country on our soil. He's not doing it and, with each passing day, is taking more and more ownership of the conflict there....and consequently, years and years of bad decisions.
How many GOP candidates are going to face tough primaries because of the lunatic right fringe demanding absolute allegiance to the hypocritical beliefs of the insane teabaggers?
It could very well be a bloodbath, within the GOP.
beavis,
It could be. I'll concede that. But the situation in NY-23 wasn't a very good indication. NY-23 never held a primary and the Republican candidate was to the left of the Democrat. We'll see what happens - but I would have been more worried if Hoffman won. I suspect cooler heads will prevail going forward.
As for FL, Meeks is a radical urban black Democrat and Democrats need some of the vote from the Panhandle. He won't get it. Either Crist or Rubio will beat him.
How many GOP candidates are going to face tough primaries because of the lunatic right fringe demanding absolute allegiance to the hypocritical beliefs of the insane teabaggers?
Any chance you'd ever come on here and use less inflammatory rhetoric?
Or are you always just looking for a fight?
Go on and unload your laundry list of insults and vile names for me and people like me...and then glaze it right over with a touch of irony by reminding us how a liberal like yourself is caring and kind and it's conservatives who are the hateful, mean-spirited bastards.
Yeah GOPer my money's on the GOP taking a few more seats as well--I'd guess about 20, maybe 25, more if something awful happens.
But remember that 2002 also followed a largely GOP-led round of redisticting. I'm just saying that 2002 numbers on the Congressional ballot, even if that somehow stayed the same for a year, doesn't necessarily equal bloodbath or wave.
"If you guys think that supporting the health care bill is going to be MORE BENEFICIAL to MORE DEMOCRATS - you're nuts. You're already bleeding independents. It's only going to get worse if you keep supporting this bill that the public does not want."
Actually, Happy GOPer, the public supports the Dems on health-care over the Reps. A majority even supports a public-option. Secondly, to all you talking about '02, that election was the first federal election following the 9/11 attacks and the White House worked national security hard. So that election was an anomaly. The Reps will win seats in '10 but it won't be anywhere near enough to take control, Reps just aren't that popular.
Tom:
In order of importance to conservatives, the top three votes are (1) government health insurance, (2) the porkulus bill and (3) cap and tax, with the latter trailing the first two significantly because it has been proceeding largely under the radar. Remember that it was the porkulus that started the Tea Party movement and the bills authorizing a government takeover of the health insurance industry that triggered the townhall demonstrations culminating in the 9/12 march on Washington. The local Tea Party folks out here in the Colorado Springs area are completely focused on the health care legislation. The couple of Blue Dog Dems in our state who voted for the House bill have targets on their backs now.
The ideological crossfire over health insurance makes this issue even more dominant. The Blue Dogs are in a no win situation where they will probably lose some of their Dem base if they vote against Obamacare and will certainly lose the conservative Indies if they vote for Obamacare. However, conservatives are twice as fired up as the libs as shown by the polling and the election results in NJ and VA. Thus, it is safer to assume that Blue Dog Dems will lose far fewer Dems than they will Indi conservatives with their health insurance vote.
BTW, the Rasmussen congressional generic jumped up to R+6 in the lead up to the vote on the House Obamacare bill. The GOP has not seen this kind of lead in the Rasmussen polling in a long, long time.
A majority even supports a public-option.
Yeah, as long as any mention of long-term costs and other consequences are obfuscated or simply omitted.
If (and I think when) this thing turns out to be an albatross around the necks of working-class American families, we'll see how well that majority of support holds up.
Just like a people will always look back and blame Bush and Co. for the clusterf**k in Iraq, people will look back on the soon-to-be clusterf**k of healthcare and blame that on Obama and Co.
wv: facklig - euphemism for a much dirtier word
If you're going to call them porkulus & cap and tax, why not continue calling the third one Obamacare as well? People won't take you any less seriously (can they?), plus you'll get to use another term that makes you giggle.
"Yeah, as long as any mention of long-term costs and other consequences are obfuscated or simply omitted.
If (and I think when) this thing turns out to be an albatross around the necks of working-class American families, we'll see how well that majority of support holds up."
Long term costs? Those are going up anyways and the system is already becoming an albatross around working-class American families. Americans are already becoming fed up as it is, I don't see how this is going to make things worse. If the "market", that religion that some of you practice, was more efficient with health-care and costs didn't sky-rocket every year, we wouldn't be here today.
Oh, I forgot, all we need is tort reform and to allow consumers to "shop" for insurance across state borders, and everything would be la di da. Of course that is the Republican "plan."
It seems like it would nearly impossible for a GOP takeover. In 1994 they took a lot of southern seats that are still republican and they had a president elected with 43% of the vote.
Also today republicans are hated more than ever and we don't know how many conservative 3rd party candidates will gum up the election.
If you think nothing gets done now just imagine if the gop controlled the house abnd dems had the white house and senate, total gridlock.
I say the best republicans can hope for is a 20-25seat pickup unless the economy is back in deep recession.
Chris,
Mule Rider is right about the phrasing of the questioning regarding the so-called "public option."
Setting that aside, the bill in total is simply not popular. Gallup shows that independents don't want it by a 2 to 1 margin. That's not something that is just going to go away. Opinions on the matter have hardened considerably since the summer.
And you can't possibly believe even your own rhetoric. IF the public wanted this bill then it would be the REPUBLICANS that would be divided over it. That 39 Democrats largely from swing districts didn't want to go near this bill tells you everything you need to know about its lack of popularity.
Argue that you want to say "damn the polls - this is good ligislation." I would disagree but at least its an honerable position if you believe it. But don't argue that the bill is popular because by any reasonable measure - it's not.
Long term costs? Those are going up anyways and the system is already becoming an albatross around working-class American families.
Yes, but accelerating the problem isn't a viable solution.
Americans are already becoming fed up as it is
Count me among them, even though I haven't personally suffered because of it. I want real reform, but I want it to be thorough and actually tackle the problem, not make it worse.
I don't see how this is going to make things worse.
That's because you are short-sighted and beholden to the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Of course you think anything they come up with isn't going to "make things worse."
If the "market", that religion that some of you practice, was more efficient with health-care and costs didn't sky-rocket every year, we wouldn't be here today.
The reason we are "here today" and that the insurance and delivery of quality health care is inefficient and costly isn't because of the "market." It's because the "market" hasn't been allowed to adequately do its job. And because of all of the bureaucracy and government-meddling that is already in the system.
I don't need to keep making keystrokes to convince myself what's going to happen. I know where we'll be in 5 years so long as you guys insist on this path for reform. A broken system will be shattered and pain and misery will multiply exponentially.
Happy (oblivious) GOPer, believe what you want. Polls consistently have shown the public supports the President over the GOP, by a healthy margin. The GOP is sticking together on this, as they will on other big ticket items, because they can't afford to let the Dems claim progress. Otherwise, they will be wandering in the wilderness for decades.
"t's because the "market" hasn't been allowed to adequately do its job. And because of all of the bureaucracy and government-meddling that is already in the system."
Is that a joke. Insurance companies have a near monopoly. They successfully lobbied for decades to keep the government off their backs. There is very little competitiveness and won't be unless the government steps in. They've know this for years and have neglected to reform from within.
Chris,
I will believe what I want. Those same polls show Indies defecting massively to the GOP. Actual election results confirm indies defecting massively to the GOP.
Polls also show the Republicans gaining a generic congressional lead. Those same polls show Obama losing support more quickly over the past year than any president in decades.
I'm happy with taking a chance. My party is out of power and we have nothing to lose.
Polls consistently have shown the public supports the President over the GOP, by a healthy margin.
I love this argument that keeps getting kicked around. Since when does 'popular' = 'right'?
Is that a joke. Insurance companies have a near monopoly.
No shit. How does that not jive with what I said. Monopoly power, however it was achieved, is hardly a way of letting the (free) market do its job.
They successfully lobbied for decades to keep the government off their backs. There is very little competitiveness and won't be unless the government steps in.
And I'm all about the government stepping in and protecting the competitiveness of an industry. That's what they're supposed to do. As a free-market capitalist, I realize that's the case. There has to be some oversight, whether it's healthcare (or health insurance) or telecommunications, the automotiave industry, or freaking toy manufacturers.
But you and I both know that Obama and Co. aren't trying to just step in and create a more competitive atmosphere. They're trying to nose their big ass right into the middle of the whole friggin' thing. And when they do, they're going to bring about all the misery of government-run programs with them.
Like a turd in the punch bowl...
Charles:
You did read what the cook report says, didn't you?
This is a list of seats which might be competitive. In other words, any seat not listed is not competitive at all.
But how competative is competative?
Of the 78 Dem seats listed, 45 are indicated as Likely to go Dem. "These seats are not considered competitive at this point but have the potential to become engaged."
Anoter 21 are currently Lean Dem. "These are considered competitive races but one party has an advantage."
Only 12 seats are listed as tossup "These are the most competitive; either party has a good chance of winning."
So, According to Cook, If the election were held today, only in 12 of the currently Dem. seats does the Dem not have an advantage. The Reps would have to win every one to gain 12 seats. Of course, the Reps have 4 seats in this same category.
@Mule, whether you believe that some have an end goal of a single payer or not, the public option, assuming paid for only by premiums, is a quite good way of changing the insurance companies to be competitive. They know that unless they improve quickly, there will be pressure to make that public option more widely available. The free market can work well when competing with an unsubsidized government service, and even sometimes with a subsidized one. Regulations are easier to thwart than pure competition.
You are not going to reform the insurance industry by handing them more customers on a silver platter (mandates) and certainly not when the Gov has to pay poor people's premiums.
We only have to look at the Medicare extensions using private companies to see how badly that can go.
The health insurance industry is so corrupted and dishonest that it will take stronger measures to change things. Sad but true. Free market economics is excellent in theory, but in practice, there is no free market - too many invisible hands are unleveling the playing field, preventing reform, and preventing the consumers to move to a better choice. Some of it is the fault of regulations and unintended consequences.
George,
I wouldn't hang my hat on that. In 2006 and 2008 - at this point in the election cycle - it didn't look any worse for the Republicans on the Cook Political Report.
It's better to look at the trends. For months every revision of the report has been moving more and more Dem seats from Safe to Likely and from Likely to Lean and so on. The opposite has been happening to the GOP seats as a general rule.
I tried to comfort myself by that same logic in '06 and '08. It didn't work out so well. The macro trends are going to dictate what happens to those Democrats. And the election will be nationalized as a referendum on Obama and the liberal congress and its policies.
George In Florida said...
Charles:
You did read what the cook report says, didn't you?
Pat said...
Many good comments, and a good general analysis by Nate
~~~~~~~~~~
Charles is much like Pat, who can't even get the author of the post correct ie attention to detail is not a strong point for winger trolls ...
not sure how Cook rates my new DEM Rep but I live in a swing district in central FL that was gerrymandered in 2000 to create a seat for the GOP state leader Feeney. Last I saw it was R+3
But due to Feeney's taint from Abramoff, we were able to dump him in 2008.
However, Kosmas [FL-24] caved on HCR. She sent out a lame arsed email today basically claiming that she supported reform, but we should slow down & start over again & do it better, yada, yada...
in other words, she bought into the GOP obstructionist propaganda.
I sent her back another sharply worded email calling her out as a hypocrite who will no longer get my support.
as the Hill article noted, she also stated, “Though I will not be voting in favor of the House bill, it has improved since first being released last summer, and it shows promise,” said Rep. Suzanne Kosmas (D-Fla.) before voting no. She was picketed afterward by supporters of the legislation.
The supporters of the legislation were here neighbors here in Volusia County who helped to elect her - including the local DEM party officials.
she has abandoned her base of supporters, so we will abandon her in 2010. I will sit out that vote or vote for a 3rd party [or she may even be primaried out next year].
I also asked her why she voted NO when she could have just voted 'present' rather than be a total tool & obstructionist...
but the NO vote will not help her get re-elected. In fact I predict she just guarantted she will be a one term & out Rep despite us working to get her 57% in 2008.
Free market economics is excellent in theory, but in practice, there is no free market...
You know, I see comments like this one thrown around alot by people like yourself in these comment streams, and it gives me a hearty chuckle....followed by a *sigh* when I realize you are being serious.
What, praytell, is your occupation? Just out of curiousity. I ask because I would expect what one does on a day-to-day basis would be enough to give them at least some insight into what they're talking about.
You see, I ask this because I study the field of economics every day through market research. I've seen first-hand that in most cases the free market isn't just a "good idea in theory" - it's a really good idea and works, in practice.
Now, please come back and tell me how you teach 9th graders civics or are an adept plumber or welder...or hell, maybe you are a chemist or physicist with advanced knowledge in those demanding subjects. But spare me the claims of knowing how the free market works - in "theory" or "in practice" - when you don't even make basic applications of economics 101.
There is a tsunami building folks.
Rasmussun congressional generic: GOP +6.
Gallup congressional generic: GOP +4.
Pew on anti incumbency wave:
About half (52%) of registered voters would like to see their own representative re-elected next year, while 34% say that most members of Congress should be re-elected. Both measures are among the most negative in two decades of Pew Research surveys. Other low points were during the 1994 and 2006 election cycles, when the party in power suffered large losses in midterm elections.
Support for congressional incumbents is particularly low among political independents. Only 42% of independent voters want to see their own representative re-elected and just 25% would like to see most members of Congress re-elected. Both measures are near all-time lows in Pew Research surveys.
http://people-press.org/report/561/anti-incumbent-sentiment
@Mule, my occupation is engineer, but I have spent time on analysis of economic data as well.
I will note that I meant to say "Free market economics is excellent in theory, but in practice with healthcare, there is no free market...". I was not impugning all markets, as many work reasonably well including the one I produce devices for.
If you seriously think the market for Healthcare and Healthcare insurance is not very broken, you need to look at your data better. The market has been broken for a long time due to tinkering and manipulation by many parties, private and public. Many regulations have backfired, especially since you have a mess of different regulations in different localities - the bane of free markets. But, manipulations by the industry, standardization of anti-competitive practices, high barriers of entry to newcomers (regulation being one factor), blackballing, and the hidden cost factors (ie. people having their insurance suddenly canceled due to newly found "pre-existing conditions" when sick enough, so leaving them as a cost burden to the broader system).
Mule Rider said...
Just like a people will always look back and blame Bush and Co. for the clusterf**k in Iraq, people will look back on the soon-to-be clusterf**k of healthcare and blame that on Obama and Co.
Just like people look back at the clusterfuck of Medicare and blame LBJ? mhm....
PaulK, the so-called public option is exactly what will cause the problems you fear by reducing (not increasing) competition in the marketplace. Government participation in the marketpace inevitably creates distortion and inefficiency. Look at what happened to the mortgage market once the government became a dominant participant if you need a history lesson. Government interference into the normal market dynamics is exactly what prevents the market from reforming itself.
It is the health care debate and the cumulative effect of the major three Obama initiatives that is driving so many people away from the Democrats. Keep up the good work.
DEM_in_Virginia:
Some Vegas bookies have picked the Yankees to win again next year in six games. While we won't KNOW if they are right until then, they still could be right. Back to political polling, Bart De Palma is correct, and it's not just the new polling out of the Pew Research Center.
Those numbers are all approaching historic levels found in the run-up to the 2006 and 1994 midterms, elections that saw significant seat changes in the House and Senate. In October 2006, 55 percent said they wanted to see their Member re-elected and 37 percent favored the re-election of most members; in October 1994, 49 percent favored the re-election of their congressman/woman and 29 percent backed the general re-election of incumbents. It's going to happen.
Even more troubling for incumbents is that unaligned/independent voters are more down on their elected officials than partisans of either stripe. Only one-quarter of independents want to see incumbents re-elected next year while just more than four in ten (42 percent) would commit to backing their own incumbent in the 2010 midterms.
What's clear from this and other national polling as well as a variety of state data -- including today's Ohio Quinnipiac survey -- is that there is a widespread belief that politicians are not acting in the best interests of those they represent.
This sentiment isn't terribly new but the depth of these anti-incumbent feelings -- particularly among political independents -- makes it particularly newsworthy.
George in Florida:
Yes, I used the word "potentially" thank you very much.
@Bart, all I have to say is look at all the "if the election were held today" data from 1 year out over the years and you will find the worst prediction system known to man - worse than the flip of a coin.
If the economy does not improve and if the Dems do not force through healthcare reform, then these predictions will come true since the mood will be dark (and so anti-incumbant) and the Dem base will not vote. If it does change and if healthcare reform is passed, then all will be different.
If it does change and if healthcare reform is passed, then all will be different.
What makes you so sure? Independents DO NOT WANT this bill. Why on earth would they swing to the Democrats if Democrats essentially say "F*ck You" and pass the bill anyway. Any increased enthusiams from Democrats passing this bill will be more than outweighed by incensed Independents. Even if the Dems are somewhat appeased by the bill's passage - part of the Dem base is going to still be dispirited. The blacks aren't going to vote. The young ar not going to vote. Not in anywhere near the numbers needed anyway. The homos are still going to pissed that Obama isn't pushing gay marriage. There is a finite limit on how high enthusiasm from Democrats will get in an off year election. Independents on the other hand are just going to be angrier and angrier if you keep ignoring the will of the people.
Your arrogance is going to be your undoing.
PaulK:
You make a good point. If the Blue Dog Dems heed the electoral tsunami warnings and start governing like the conservatives they pretended to be, they have a chance of surviving 2010. However, if they vote for Obamacare or Cap and Tax, they better be prepared to be swept out to sea.
@Rudy, "so-called public option is exactly what will cause the problems you fear" - I completely disagree. Since it will be limited to uninsured people (not working or working for small companies), it will not cause that affect at all. If it was open to all, we all agree that many insurance companies have been so bad and abusive that they would lose customers in droves. But, even if so, I think better insurance companies (e.g. BlueCross members) and HMOs (e.g. Kaiser) would do just fine. The most abusive ones would have to choose between reforming themselves and dying or being bought by someone else. But, no one is proposing the public option to be that level of competition unfortunately. So, most will only have to reform the very worst of their practices.
"Look at what happened to the mortgage market once the government became a dominant participant" - I am hoping you meant this as a joke. The government did not create CDSes and MBSes and did not get rating agencies to lie about their value. That was the market and the effect of dropped regulations on ibanks. One of the problems in markets is that once one company is making massive profits by hook or crook, all the rest are pressured to do the same by Wall Street. So, even ibanks and banks nervous about the riskier mortgages and leverage were pressured to follow along. Similarly with health insurance companies; they used to go for moderate profit, but once a few were turning in obscene profits by screwing their customers, many of the others followed like lemmings.
@Happy, "What makes you so sure? Independents DO NOT WANT this bill." - so you are suggesting there is a 'Bradley effect' for the public option and reform???? Poll after poll, even by Fox and WSJ show broad support for both. Seeing a few thousand rabble-rousers screaming and waving signs with pictures of Obama as Hitler should not fool you into thinking they represent the mood of the people. They are just the 12% who continued to say that Bush was doing a great job right to the end.
PaulK:
Independent voters are more down on their elected officials than partisans of either stripe. Look at the Pew poll. Only one-quarter of independents want to see incumbents re-elected next year while just more than four in ten (42 percent) would commit to backing their own incumbent in the 2010 midterms.
Chris Cillizza, citing the Gallup poll:
**44**
That's the percentage of independent voters who told Gallup they would advise their Member of Congress to vote against a health care bill while just 22 percent said their elected official should support it, polling that comes in the midst of the House's passage of the legislation over the weekend and the start of deliberations on it in the Senate.
When those independents who are "leaning" toward one position or the other are pushed on the matter, a majority (53 percent) said their Member should vote against a bill while 37 percent said he/she should vote for it.
Those numbers come a week after Democratic gubernatorial candidates in New Jersey and Virginia were badly outpaced by their Republican rivals among independents and less than one year before 258 House Democrats, 19 Senate Democrats and 19 Democratic-held governorships are open.
President Barack Obama, in an interview with ABC's Jake Tapper, ascribed the retreat of independents from the Democratic banner to the high unemployment rate (10.2 percent nationally) and a level of economic uncertainty that has gripped the country since last fall.
Obama's suggested remedy to Democrats' independent problem? "I've said to fellow Democrats let's get the job done on the health care bill that is so important to this country's long-term well-being, [and] we can look back at the end of this year and I think we'll be able to legitimately say that we have had the most productive legislative session at least since 1965," he told Tapper.
The data from Gallup -- the poll was conducted from last Thursday through Sunday -- suggests that passing the health care bill may, in fact, make things worse with Independents rather than better.
Those numbers will go over like a lead balloon for people like Reps. Tom Perriello (Va.), Zack Space (Ohio) and Brad Ellsworth (Ind.) -- House Democrats who voted in favor of the bill but represent districts carried by Sen. John McCain (Ariz.) in 2008. And, it may make them less willing to vote for the bill when -- and if -- it passes the Senate and emerges from a conference committee.
The numbers are also sure to affirm doubts already harbored by the likes of Sens. Blanche Lincoln (Ark.) and Evan Bayh (Ind.) -- both of whom are up for re-election in 2010 -- and Sen. Ben Nelson (Neb.) who will seek a third term in 2012.
More....
Still, at the moment, voting for the bill seems to be a riskier proposition than voting against it -- particularly among independents.
@Charles, "Independent voters are more down on their elected officials than partisans of either stripe." - agreed completely. They/We always are. Independents are often the "undecided" and "swing" voters. They are also more affected by economy and partisan fighting since they are not affiliated with either side.
So, it all depends on the economy and status the healthcare reform by end of summer next year. If the economy is good, they will tend to have less reason to want the incumbent out. If the healthcare reform is passed, they will more likely have forgotten it (and be focused on current issues). Dems and independents will remember whether the party could get its act together and do something vs. be unable to accomplish anything.
Happy GOPer:
Just let them keep hitting their heads against a wall. At least we tried to warn them.
I want to see them explain away Gallup as a rightwing partisan organization like they do with Rasmussen.
The voters don't want it. They've heard about it for months. It's not like they're overly malleable.
Democrats don't care and are going to ram it down our threats anyway. That's their right in a representative republic - but just because they keep repeating that it's better to pass the bill than not to pass it - doesn't make it so.
Denial is obviously a powerful thing.
Obviously. I'm just afraid of the damage that will be done until the GOP can get back in control.
Both parties are making the same grave mistake at the same time. Pushing away moderates while accusing the other side of 'pushing away moderates'.
Time for the Centrist Party! It lets the Left unabashedly push for their policies without 'Blue Dog' foot-dragging...while at the same time letting the Right kick out all those RINOs and purify their platform. And gives the rest of us a real choice.
I do want to post something to JMNorris (if you are still around):
What if the Democrats said to the GOP, give us YOUR plan for job creation and we will pass it? It can't hurt, can it?
The reason that Republicans (and right-thinking Blue Dog Democrats) are against your job creation plan is because it costs too much per "saved or created" job or has some other detriment.
I'd posit that the first part of this statement goes hand in hand with the latter and would be more appropriately joined by an "and" rather than an "or."
Yeah, sorry, I meant if he became unpopular for some other reason. (Maybe it'll turn out Larry Sinclair was telling the truth. :P) Obviously if the economy goes back into a nosedive, no Democrat will be very popular.
I just don't see a situation where the economy "tanks" (how do you define that, really? and couldn't it still be considered in the tank?
I would define it as a serious collapse from where we are right now. The economy is growing again, the stock market is rising, and unemployment, a traditionally lagging indicator, is slowing. These are all positive developments.
If these positive developments continue, then I think that the Democrats will be in a fairly good position in 2010 to maintain their majority, although I certainly think it's nearly impossible for them to not lose at least 10 seats. (Assuming no unpredictable events such as another 9/11.)
If on election day next year, the Dow's back below 10,000, GDP growth is back in negative territory, and unemployment has continued to rise, the Democrats probably will lose their majority.
I think the likelihood of these two things is pretty much impossible to predict, however. If you get 10 professional economic prognosticators in a room and ask them, you'll probably get 15 different answers.
(I'm sure there are some amateur prognosticators on this board who will go ahead and take a crack at it though. :))
(By the way, to respond to the posts above, I really think polling on Congressional legislation is silly. Everyone's like "well, if you explain it this way, if you explain it that way", etc. The fact is that the vast majority of people have no idea what's in the health care bill. There is simply no way to get a realistic answer about how the person will feel about their representative's vote AFTER the bill passes or fails.)
EmonOkari:
I'm all for that, with Palin as the GOP nominee. Who are you thinking for the Centrist Party nominee?
Both parties are making the same grave mistake at the same time. Pushing away moderates while accusing the other side of 'pushing away moderates'.
Agree completely on that. And just like there's no way that Maxine Waters in any way resembles Blanche Lincoln, Charlie Crist is miles away from Michelle Bachmann.
Time for the Centrist Party! It lets the Left unabashedly push for their policies without 'Blue Dog' foot-dragging...while at the same time letting the Right kick out all those RINOs and purify their platform. And gives the rest of us a real choice.
Amen to that as well. Let the tree-hugging, pacifist, shove-secularism-down-your-throat fruitcakes duke it out in extreme minority status with the collective right-wing neo-con thugs filled with war-mongering hawks, corporatists, and force-religion-down-your throat zealots
That should leave the rest of us with a sensible majority to govern.
By the way, I'm personally more conservative than most, but the application of my politics is more pragmatic and centrist.
Yes, I am seriously asking you who your choice for the Centrist Party candidate in that hypothetical scenario would be.
Just to continue my above post for a bit, I think the public option in particular will turn out to be a total non-issue come election day. Actually, I'd guess that this hoopla over abortion will end up being the real stickler for a lot of folks. I think it's simply hard to get people revved up over abstruse ideological questions about an existing program - but abortion gets everyone going.
This is especially true given that once health care reform is passed, pretty much nothing will happen before election day 2010. So the Republicans aren't going to have anything concrete to point to - if anything, there may be confusion on the part of the "independent" voter as to why the world hasn't ended yet due to health care reform.
And I think the most obvious problem with the insistence that health care reform will be the downfall of the Democrats is that Social Security and Medicare weren't. Existing programs are always more popular than imagined programs.
Time for the Centrist Party!
We already have a centrist president. Maybe Obama will run for reelection with the Centrist Party?
By the way, on the subject of a "Centrist" party, why not the Modern Whig Party? Pro-science, pro-fiscal responsibility, pro-social liberalism, pro-energy independence. I like 'em, even if they don't have a snowball's chance in hell just like all the other third parties. :D
OK, Persuter, how about you propose a candidate for President for this new (revived) Centrist Party?
@Charles, "I'm just afraid of the damage that will be done until the GOP can get back in control." -- I that may be the funniest joke I have seen in years! Thanks for that, I am still laughing so hard I can barely read what I am writing.
I too am just hoping we can have another credit crash, housing crash, vicious recession, yet another war in the Middle East (since we are not spending as many billions on the two the GOP left us with), and more destruction of our rights. It feels like it has been so long since we were hated world wide. So, yes, we need the GOP back in power.
@Persuter
And I think the most obvious problem with the insistence that health care reform will be the downfall of the Democrats is that Social Security and Medicare weren't. Existing programs are always more popular than imagined programs.
Precisely. Soc Sec, Medicare, Medicaid, VA Health, food stamps - all are wildly popular with the people who benefit from them. And for most of these problems, they also are popular with the people who realize they might - or, more likely will - someday benefit from them.
This is precisely what the Republicans are afraid of - not that health care reform "won't work" or will cost too much, but that it will, in fact, work quite well, and be as wildly popular as these other programs are -thus giving the Dems yet another huge social win.
The Repubs, of course, respond by saying that Soc Sec, Medicare, etc. are not popular or successful and cost too much. (Just watch, of any of the wingers respond to this post, that's what they'll try to say.) But I've never heard anyone on Medicare say it should be abolished, never heard of anyone who turned down Soc Sec benefits, etc. And the things that are wrong with thee plans are all due to the Repubs and their frequent attempts to kill them.
Repubs oppose health care reform because it is wildly popular, and will prove to be more popular as time goes on, and the Repubs want to deny this victory to the Dems. That's the truth of it.
@shrinkers, to your point, the current GOP line is that healthcare reform will "cut your medicare".
OK, Persuter, how about you propose a candidate for President for this new (revived) Centrist Party?
Uh... what? Why? Did you just see the word "Centrist" in my post or what? I think the idea of a "Centrist" party is meaningless - you can't define your party as a happy medium.
The first person that would come to mind as a Modern Whig candidate would be Wesley Clark, I guess, but that's probably more because I'm a huge fan of Wesley Clark than anything else. :P (I mean, seriously... he's a four-star general, a Rhodes Scholar, and he looks vaguely like Anderson Cooper. Yes please! :D) I did some campaign work for Clark in '04 - he had some decent momentum. Although still not a snowball's chance in hell. :P
Well, PaulK, you may not "want" the GOP back in charge, but that's completely different than what you "need."
To all of 538's conservative, disingenuous, winger trolls hyperventilating re: the Nov. 2010 mid-terms ~ try to pace yourselves as (1) year can be a very long time in politics.
and please, check your blood pressure regularly as you may be swept away by BDP's There is a tsunami building folks. ;) in the meantime.
Charles is getting daily raging hard-on's re: palin being the party of No! nominee in 2012 and
BDP has a permanent hard-on re: his various definition(s) er opinions of Socialism!
Too funny! as conservative winger trolls get sooo excited by their own constant spamming at a progressive blog.
Keep hope alive!
Persuter:
I was using "Centrist" in a general sense, and I would welcome a Palin, Clark, Obama general election campaign.
@PaulK
to your point, the current GOP line is that healthcare reform will "cut your medicare"
Hee hee yes! Isn't that a hoot? After trying for 30 years to dismantle Medicare, now they pretend to be the defenders of Medicare. And to prove how bad gummint run health care is, it's so bad it'll hurt Medicare!
The Repubs and their teabagger sockpuppets are a bad joke, nothing more. Not a bit of consistency or honesty anywhere among them.
... i almost wrote "teabagger sackpuppets", but that'd probably be a bit too much, don't you think?
We already have a centrist president. Maybe Obama will run for reelection with the Centrist Party?
I've found it quite intriguing that people seem to place Obama in quite a range of places on the ideolgical spectrum, and it's usually quite dependent upon their own placement on that spectrum. It's funny that you even find this to some degree with Bush. He was a far-right neo-con to many while others simply called him a conservative. Then there are a few on the right who try and label him as liberal because of some of his policies like NCLB and the prescription drug plan.
Back to Obama, we see the same thing. To a lot of people, he's a far left nut while others will simply concede he's liberal. But to those of you out there pretty far to the left on the compass, he passes as moderate.
This is not an attacking or judgemental post, in any way, just and out-loud musing over our own personal definitions for people.
with Palin as the GOP nominee.
Forgive my ignorance. I first read it as 'Palin as the [Center] nominee'. I had to clean up my keyboard after that tea-spill [pardon the pun].
Who are you thinking for the Centrist Party nominee?
I personally believe it would take a generation or more to build up a longer-lasting center party. Starting with local office, then slowly growing into state office, then maybe, maybe one day...national office. If the movement stuck, then By 2050 it would then be quite possible for the nation to have more of a 'coalition'-flavor to it. 2012 does not appear to be a feasible time for a brand new Center Party to wrest the presidency from Obama (and there's great arguments to be made that Obama is himself governing near the center).
Rather, it might be more feasible for the party to lay a groundwork movement and organizational vision more for the long-term. Not just a 2012 'I hate incumbents' candidate. With that said, center-leaning political leaders that I personally think bring good ideas to the table include: Harold Ford Jr. and Kay Bailey Hutchison.
Of course, like any new party...the establishment R/D would likely team up to squash it out quick and preserve their 'Pick Us Or Those Evil [Insert Republican or Democrat Here].
Tom Schaller wrote…
“Though these are not necessarily the 28 Democrats Wasserman rates as most endangered …many could be in serious trouble next November.” (bold mine)
That’s your judgment, not Wasserman’s, so what’s it even doing in this piece?
I agree with jamzo, who expresses disappointment when “you get into the ‘maybe’ stuff put out by others who seem to have nothing more to do”.
Amen.
#Mule Rider
This is not an attacking or judgemental post, in any way, just and out-loud musing over our own personal definitions for people.
True, dat. I find a point of agreement with you.
@Charles, 'you may not "want" the GOP back in charge, but that's completely different than what you "need."'
Yes, I "need" another meltdown due to lack of regulation and enforcement of financial firms (the contributors to our campaigns can do no wrong). I "need" another couple costly wars (we will bomb them into democracy and loving the US). I "need" more abuse of basic rights (the GOP knows best about what rights you should have and not the founders of our Country).
Of course, I only "need" the GOP doing that if I want to go to an early grave. But, since I don't, I "need" pretty much what I "want".
PaulK, you describe the symptoms, not the cause of the mortgage market meltdown. I don't think you understand the deeper story, which essentially was the empowerment of pseudo-governemental companies, particulatry Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, to dominate the market because of lower cost of capital by being able to borrow at close to the government's cost of capital. Since it could lend out all it could at a positive spread and had no motivation to watch credit quality, those entities grew like Topsy.
The leveraging vehicles were created in response to cost-of-capital competitive advantage enjoyed by the governmental agencies, in order to create lower-cost capital for themselves so that they could turn a profit instead of being completely squeezed out of the market. At the same time, mortgage standards were reduced across the board because of the CRA, related initiatives and supporting litigation to force major lenders to lower standards. And, of course, everybody underestimated the risk in the housing market until it was too late.
The market failed to turn off the capital spigot early enough because so much of the mortgage paper was presumed to be government insured, which is de facto has turned out to be. So, the normal invisible hand regulators were overriden by the government regulation and participation. Had that not been the case, the problem woud not have been allowed to become so large becasue capital availability would have stopped long before it did.
The same thing will happen to the health insurance market if the government entity is allowed to have unfair competitive advantage in provier pricing, along little ability or motivation to manage cost and margins the way insurers must if they are to remain solvent. That is why it must be stopped. Big accident waiting to happen, and far worse than the problems in the marketplace presently.
@Mule, I agree with you completely. It is always the case that we color our perceptions by our own beliefs. Of course, we tend to overcolor those who are more than a short ways from our beliefs. So, to those on the far right, Obama is a Communist/Socialist/Nazi (not that most know what any of those systems are about). To those on the far left, Bush was a Fascist/Nazi/tool-of-the-Military-Industrial-Complex (not that most know what any of those mean).
It is hard being more moderate since you can see good and bad in everyone; you can see where they agree and where the do not agree with you.
Of course, to put some of this in context, Bush changed in the final couple years of his administration (as he was worrying about how history would judge him). Obama is still an enigma to most of us, since he defies easy pigeon-holes.
EmonOkari:
Thanks for your thoughts (hopefully, a third party does mount a challenge to Obama).
PaulK:
We'll have to agree to disagree on what America "needs" then.
@ Jenny:
I wonder how many people in November 2007 thought Obama would be the nominee, let alone win teabagg'n strong holds of Indiana, North Carolina, and Virgina (rural states the Dems had not won since 1964).
I figured he had a good shot (I wasn't buying into the Conv Wisdom that Hillary would win in a walk). I also figured that he was the Dems' best chance of getting someone elected. That consideration, in addition to his opp to the Iraq War, had me in his camp.
I didn't expect him to win IN, VA, or especially NC.
New political party…
The last new major party in the US was formed in the 1850’s—the GOP, which was formed among the ruins of the Whigs. IMO for any new party to succeed as a viable alternative it will have to be at the expense of one of the existing two. The Republican Party was formed in 1854 and won the White House and both branches of Congress within ten years.
The likeliest candidate for implosion remains the GOP, however the outright rejection of Doug Hoffman in NY-23 sets back any chance of a teabagger revolt strong enough to tear the party up. Reaction to Sarah Palin’s book tour may prove instructive. If she manages to keep her favorables above those of, say, Mussolini then perhaps an archconservative new-party movement could coalesce around her for 2012. I’m sure the Republicans won’t want anything to do with her.
That's fine with me too.
That's fine with me too (again).
Owens getting 61,666 votes (49.2%) vs. Hoffman getting 57,073 (45.2%) is hardly OUTRIGHT REJECTION. Just imagine if Hoffman had tried to get elected ; )
@Charles:
Thanks for your thoughts (hopefully, a third party does mount a challenge to Obama).
Yeah, so he can win 53-30-17, instead of 58-42.
Matt…
I doubt any conservatives really thought Hillary was going to win the nomination. That was merely their public spin, because they really wanted to run against Hillary since she was a far more vulnerable candidate than Obama promised to be. With Hillary all they would need to do is crank up the old Anti-Clinton machinery; with Obama they knew they would have to tread lightly, particularly as any obviously ridiculous charge might be seen as covert racism.
No, Matt, my prediction would be closer to Palin (54%), Obama (41%), and Clark (5%).
Matt…
“Yeah, so he can win 53-30-17, instead of 58-42.”
Best line o’ the day, so far.
(I wasn't buying into the Conv Wisdom that Hillary would win in a walk)
As Pragmatus said, I don't think any informed observer did. When you poll people a year or more ahead of the election, only those candidates that people already know are going to get "votes".
That's why the 2008 election was "supposed" to be Clinton vs. Giuliani. Clinton was more realistic but there was no way Giuliani was EVER going to get the nomination. People just pick names they've heard before.
Charles…
Have you donated to Sarah Palin’s PAC yet? You know of course that campaigns don’t run on just lofty thoughts.
Of course I've donated, pre-ordered her book, and I am a "fan" of her Facebook page.
@Rudy, "you describe the symptoms, not the cause of the mortgage market meltdown."
I do not agree. It is true that Fannie and Freddie made mortgage credit easier, but there are many things wrong with your reading:
1. They have always made it easier - that is what they were created for. Their access to lower cost credit (because of US backing) meant that mortgages could more easily be sold in the aftermarket (not as securities, but as mortgages). This was to encourage more middle class home ownership. This did not create a problem until recently.
2. The problem did not start with the CRA. Lenders and back-end mortgage holders initially just used normal risk pooling with balanced packages. They were not pushed to sell "exotic" loans or even true sub-prime, the initial changes were a slight change in prime. They were pushed to stop redlining.
3. The triggering effect was when ibanks were allowed to get into this area of banking such that they were able to hide more aspects of mortgage pools from pure REITs and the like to complex tranches with details of the risk and mortgage types hidden completely. That was not just a symptom.
4. When CDSes were allowed to be used for mortgages (vs. other kinds of loans), it made leveraging easier, but hid risks even more. Further, CDSes were being securitized and sold to people who had no idea how much risk they were taking on.
5. Ibanks needed more mortgages and so were encouraging junk-mortgages (high interest, exotic terms, high risk) since they often had high payouts. Front-end brokers were pushing people who could not afford the loans to take them and refinance over and over (so debt was growing, equity was alwayy around 0%) with no concern about the long term. That is not just a symptom.
6. A symptom and problem was mark to market accounting. Leveraged loans and short term rollovers collapsed when mark to market forced uncertain loans to be written to $0 (since could not prove any value and the fines are huge for getting it wrong). Loans were called and leveraging was unwound chaotically, taking down companies in the process.
7. Your claim that capital was more available because of government backing is crazy. Most of the capital in the system had nothing to do with government backed mortgages. That was *exactly* the problem - most of these exotic loans could not be sold to Fannie or Freddie. They were securitized and sold in tranches precisely because they were well outside the loan standards those two organizations require - but they offered more interest. The leveraging was possible because of credit default swaps. Those hid the risk and moved them to places like AIG. That is the problem, the government lost control specifically because it no longer controlled the spigot!
Now, care to explain how 49% vs. 45% is an "outright rejection"?
Charles…
With the rabid nutjob insanosphere (Palin, Beck, Limbaugh) going all-in on Hoffman, and with all the polls saying he would win huge (not to mention your own lurid predictions of success) for a certified wingnutter to collapse so horribly (getting stomped by 5%) hardly augurs well for his political philosophy.
Don’t get me wrong—a big Hoffman win would have been ideal, because it would have provided real impetus to the infighting within the GOP.
Pragmatus:
You have me confused with someone who predicted that Hoffman would win (he didn't even live in the district!). I don't think coming out of no where and losing by only 2,300 votes equates to "getting stomped" or (as I already asked) "outright rejection.
WV: pusine (adj.) Not gonna go there either . . .
No, Matt, my prediction would be closer to Palin (54%), Obama (41%), and Clark (5%).
Still don't get the whole "Palin is really popular, you guys just don't get it!" thing. She's not popular. I don't know if McCain lost because of her but she damn sure didn't help. I completely fail to see how she's going to get 54% of the vote.
And it's virtually impossible for me to believe that a person is going to get elected President after quitting her elected office over a year before it ended, no matter what the reason. I simply do not see Palin as a realistic Presidential candidate - her unfavorables are way too high.
And I think Clark would probably get significantly more than 5%. Ross Perot got 19% and he was a computer salesman who dropped out of the friggin' race. :P Wesley Clark won the Democratic primary in Oklahoma and came in second or third in many states, and he didn't enter the primary until very late. My dad always said that there are two kinds of third-party Presidential candidates - semi-serious and not-serious. I think Clark falls in the former category (were he ever to run for a third party of any kind, which I seriously doubt).
One other factor to consider is incumbency, and another would be relationship to the banking sector. Both of these contributed heavily to the loss of St. John Corzine's governorship (PBUH) to a rodeo clown. Also, don't forget to take into account the degree of authenticity the candidate projects- Hoffman lost because 1) he's not from NY-23, and 2) doesn't seem to care about local issues in NY-23. Creigh Deeds lost because 1) he's not from NOVA, and 2) he ran away from everything NOVA Democrats support.
As for Palin? She's better off not actively being involved in politics, the same way the conservative pundits are. Nobody can vote her out of office now, since she holds no office. She can milk the teabaggers for speaking fees and book royalties, so money isn't a problem. If she contests another election and washes out, that's pretty much the end of her gravy train. The sidelines are safe and profitable at this point, so why not stay there?
PaulK…
To your excellent analysis of the mortgage meltdown I would add only this. When “credit default swaps” on bundled mortgage CDOs were presented to the rating agencies they had no idea in hell how to rate or value them. So they simply rubber-stamped them triple A, and with that imprimatur the bubble took off.
Persuter:
It's not going to take much more. America is at the tipping point. That being said, Obama ALREADY allowed another terrorist attack on U.S. soil (a military base no less) so a couple more of those would do it. Of course, if we actually have another 9/11 that "tanks" the economy -- as you so eloquently put it -- after Obama's surrender tour made us MORE vulnerable, you can switch Clark's and Obama's percentages in my prediction.
WV: dializin -- new type of robo-call push polling for 2012 on cell phones, Facebook, etc.
Statler N Waldorf:
Because, she cares too much about REAL Americans to take the easy way out.
Charles
is that why she quit halfway into her first term of office?
To your excellent analysis of the mortgage meltdown I would add only this.
I'd add something else. Sorry about bringing up Clark so much in this thread, but this is actually unrelated to my earlier comments. He visited Citibank at some point during the subprime crisis, and was told by some analysts there that not a single Citi forecasting model had had home prices going down.
Well, that pretty much explains it right there. If your forecasting models all show home prices going up, there is no risk in lending money. If they pay, great, if they can't, even better. In fact, you want to lend to people who can't pay it back, so you get the more expensive house.
And, surprise surprise, we had a metric shit-ton of subprime mortgages right around that time... :P
Statler:
Yes. Didn't you listen to her resignation announcement? The "easy way" would have been to stay in office, have the Alaskan people pay for more and more complaints, and ride out a lame-duck term.
Matt said...
I figured he had a good shot (I wasn't buying into the Conv Wisdom that Hillary would win in a walk). I also figured that he was the Dems' best chance of getting someone elected. That consideration, in addition to his opp to the Iraq War, had me in his camp.
I didn't expect him to win IN, VA, or especially NC.
~~~~~~~~~~
Seriously, I gave Obama no chance to beat the Clinton political machine when he was down (30) pts. in Iowa, but after he won was when I started to use Underestimate Obama at one's own peril!
VA and NC were not a surprise as both states are trending progressive and the Obama's campaign concentrated on voter registration and getting out the vote in many swing states. IN was the shocker, but Obama had forty-four campaign offices in IN whereas McCain had zero! Plus the economic downturn changed everything.
And again, it's amazing when political candidates actually have to campaign against each other. Ask Hillary, ask McCain, ask "macaca" Allen. Everyone has a plan until they get hit.
And as always, the power of incumbency and money change most political equations.
Obama was the best candidate/campaigner in American political history as his record setting fund raising and being an African/American elected in a country w/a 300/400 year history of racial oppression indicate.
And re: congress, all politics are local ie incumbency, name recognition and money, as a rule, determine the outcome of over 90% of races.
What helped the party of No! in 1994 was (20) Dem open seats, the check kiting bank scandal and Clinton's low approval rating because of health care, don't ask, don't tell etc.
Political dynamics change daily and predicting 2010 is a fool's errand ...
Obama's campaign was the art of the possible! not afraid of hostile territory ~ whereas the current GOP meme is the art of 100% negativity/obstructionism ...
Charles…
They are going to have to invent a new category of crazy just for you.
Already done. Crazy, like a fox ; )
I tried listening to Palin's speeches once. It reminded me of that time a friend of mine talked me into dropping acid with him while watching CSPAN. All I really remember was something about how the only thing keeping the Russians from invading was a team of crack moosehunters threatening to club baby seals if the Russkies even dared to try it.
While we're on the subject, Levi Johnston is appearing in Playgirl online here soon, and is promising full frontal nudity. Does anybody here care to place a little bet on how big the cock that proved abstinence only education doesn't work happens to be?
My guess is slightly over 9". He's the quiet type, and they're always a little bigger than average.
No, thanks, Statler (she also never said that the only thing keeping the Russians from invading were moosehunters, but you probably think that she said "I can see Russia from my house!" too). I will count your vote as one of the 41%.
Oh yeah, to the guy that's advocating a return to the Whig party. The Whigs literally attacked the White House in a drunken rage in 1841 to protest President John Tyler's vetoing the creation of a Federal Reserve-like entity. Apparently, it was the most violent protest ever to taken place in front of the White House (so says the History Channel), and was the exact reason why Congress created the DC Police Force.
The odd thing of it is, the guy they were protesting against was a member of their own party. Not unlike the Teabaggers.
Just when you thought there was something new and different taking place in DC politics, it turns out it's the same damn thing that's always been going on in DC.
@Charles
No she said something much dumber about Putin rearin' his ugly head into American airspace givin' her foreign policy experience.
But on a sidenote I love how to certain people a 5% win for Owens is a tiny squeaking margin that proves the potential for the teabagging fringe while a 5% win for Christie is a huge unbelievable rebuke not just of his opponent or of anything he stood for but for Obama, who of course was not on the ballot.
Persuter (not me) brought up the Whig Party. You guys seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.
And of course Palin quit her job because it got too hard and she was sick of having to account for ethical lapses and left to promote her book...
...because she's not one to take the easy way out
Charles,
I dunno who the 41% are, but I bet Levi's packing a mean trousersnake there. Do you think SP has seen it too? She's kinda been acting like a jilted lover ever since he went public about how abstinence education got his gf preggo.
This could very well be the most powerful penis in American politics today.
Jacob:
I've never posted anything about Christie's win being a rebuke to Obama. All politics are local.
P.S. (just in case you didn't see this on the other thread):
Last year, TENS OF THOUSANDS of foreign-born babies were adopted here in the U.S. because there is a huge shortage of newborns available. You get me ANY newborn already here in America that needs adopting, and I will get him/her adopted.
Blogger Statler N Waldorf said...
"Oh yeah, to the guy that's advocating a return to the Whig party...."
Blogger Charles said...
"Persuter (not me) brought up the Whig Party. You guys seem to have a problem with reading comprehension."
Settle down Charles, not every comment is directed to you...
Also welcome back Statler
P.P.S. if you think it's "easy" to write the #1 best-selling book on Amazon.com, go for it ; )
Ah I did see that Charles. Kudos to you helping unwanted children find homes. It's truly noble work. Would that all pro-lifers felt that sort of responsibility...
btw, Reps gained (54) seats in congress in 1994 and Clinton beat Dole by 8.5% in 1996.
and my fav MSNBC racist, Buchanan, just said his current guess is the party of No! (((may))) gain between 26/35 seats in 2010!
Let the disingenuous, useless, totally biased, praying to the gods ;) party of No! speculating/hoping continue ...
carry on
"not every comment is directed to you..."
Why not?! Seriously, though, if it wasn't directed to me, call it a pre-emptive strike.
Oh yeah, to the guy that's advocating a return to the Whig party.
The word "Whig" originally referred to American revolutionaries such as George Washington, Thomas Paine, Paul Revere, Samuel Adams, and Benjamin Franklin. It was taken from the British political party by the same name (the opposing political party were the "Tories").
The early 1800s Whig party simply re-used the name to evoke the early Patriot spirit - the Modern Whig Party does the same. It is not a revival of the actual Whig party. (Which, I'll be the first to admit, is not obvious. :P I would prefer the name New Patriot.)
anything has to be better than Palin & her notoriously oblivious interview [where she said nothing in a most convoluted way] during the GREAT TURKEY SLAUGHTER last November...
ahhh, what an inspirational figure Sarah is - and so well spoken [NOT]
a true leader of the sheeple
watch the video again & again at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5qR0aff0Kk
ROFLMAO
Persuter:
I knew what you meant. Did you see my post with just a few hypothetical scenarios whereby Obama loses to Palin in 2012?
Baron Hill being the second on the list is VERY misleading.
Jacob, 1:37 PM, briefly touched on Hill's chances of re-election.
Some history:
The CD IN-9 is a deep red district in Presidential elections, but is a very purple district in US House and local elections.
Baron Hill is NOT an unknown in the state of Indiana or the IN-9 CD.
Baron first served in the Indiana House (from 1982 to 1990), and in 1990 was the Dem candidate to fill out the remainder of Danny-Boy Quayle's Senate term, losing that (state-wide) election by a 54%-46% margin to Dan Coats.
Baron Hill was first elected to the US House, replacing Lee Hamilton, in 1998. In that election, Hill won by a 51%-48% margin over Republican Jean Leising. A Libertarian candidate took about 1% of the vote.
In 2000, Hill won, by a 54%-44% margin over Republican Michael Bailey. A Libertarian candidate took about 2% of the vote.
In 2002, Hill won, by a 51%-46% margin over Republican Mike Sodrel. A Green Party candidate took about 2% of the vote; a Libertarian candidate took about 1% of the vote.
In 2004, Sodrel won the district over Hill by a margin of about 1,500 votes, effectively a tie vote. A Libertarian candidate took about 2% of the vote. 2004 was a year in which little shrub won most or all counties in IN-9 by 55% or more.
In 2006, in a rematch with Sodrel, Hill won the CD with about 50% of the vote, Sodrel received about 46% (a Libertarian candidate took about 4% of the vote).
In 2008, in another rematch with Sodrel, Hill won the district by a 58%-39% margin (Cook rated it a toss-up). Only two counties in the 9th CD were won by Obama (Spencer and Perry, both with less that 21,000 population), the rest of the counties in the CD were won by McCain by 52% to at least 67% of the vote.
Even though Baron Hill might look vulnerable, even unelectable, in that district, his electoral history indicates that perception might not be, and probably isn't, correct. One thing that helps Hill in the district is his membership in the House Blue Dog Caucus.
Mike in Maryland
SnW
noticed that you have not been around for awhile.
be cautious where you step
CHARLES = evil hate-filled self-loathing homophobic & xenophic TROLL
DNFTT
SnW baits me with "Levi's penis" and I am the troll?! LOL
Charles, the problem isn't whether kids are born in the US or not. Its that the people who are most likely to give birth are the least educated.
Statistically speaking, the higher the degree of education you attain, the lower the number of children you are likely to spawn. The result of this is that millions of kids are brought up by idiots. Now, while the GOP does not have an exclusive lock on idiocy, they sure do seem to achieve some rather impressive depths of idiocy once they get into office. Is this an accident?
Which si why the GOP is so anti-education. I had a pet garter snake once that ate pinky rats. I'd buy them at a local pet store and name each one after a federally funded education program before I fed them to my snake. The snake's name? You guessed it-Gingrich.
Now, you may ask yourself, what demented fuck would name his pet snake after the former speaker of the house? I think it had to do with my snake's peristaliic throat activity as he (at least, I think it was a he) was swallowing creatues named things like, NEA, Smithsonian, PBS and CTW-it reminded me of the Contractions with America. It was easy to envision Gingrich swallowing the entire US education system, rendering yet another generation clueless and stupid, easy prey for future generations of Republicans.
And I was kinda right. The kids that grew up with that crazy hippie shit like Sesame Street vote Democratic now, and the kids that grew up on Jerry Falwell are attending tea prties.
If only the Whigs had that kinda foresight. You know, it just goes to show that a little preplanning goes a long way.
Wait... Charles think,s Levi is 'bait'?
Chuckie, baby, Levi's 19 now. He's legal, even for an old chickenhawk like you.
Or does that make him too old for you?
Statler N Waldorf:
Is there an actual question in any of that you would like an answer to?
Yeah. How big do you think Levi's abstinence only busting penis is?
Hi! I'm an independent voter! I vote for a different party in each election.
Last time, I voted for Democrats. But now they've pissed me off! So next time I've voting Republican.
But then THEY will piss me off, so in 2012 I'll vote Democratic again! Oh, I just can't decide which side of ANY FREAKING ISSUE I'm on!! Heaven help me!
Statler:
I don't think about that at all. Next question?
Globe199:
Welcome to the 54% : )
SnW
my POLE-itical prediction:
99% Chance That Levi Johnston Will Show Levi's Johnson
[ok, I plagarized it...]
Bet Sarah wishes she could put lipstick on that....
Charles,
Now now. I know you have to work hard to put that out of your mind, but repressing your fundamental urges is a pointless exercise. Didn't do Ted Haggard or Larry Craig any good, now did it?
Now, none of us wants to see you wind up getting busted in a Minneapolis Airport bathroom stall, so why not just come on out and venture a guess?
I'll bet his penis is bigger than yours.
@Pragmatus, I agree with you on the rating agencies. The problem is that although they may not have known how to rate these, that is their job. The 1st step would have been to analyze intrinsic risk in the underlying mortgages in terms of risk balance (like any REIT would) looking at outright default vs. poor performance. Outright default rates would indicate number of CDS calls to expect. This would then show risk on both security forms as well as true rating of each tranche. AIG was selling CDSes based on the rating, so these assessments were important.
It was relatively clear from the bundled loans that most were just past the front-end period (usually 6 months), most were from refinancing with all points bundled (nothing paid in), and many were I-only with a bump-up in 2 to 3 years. Each of those should have been used as negative against the rating, since each increase the likelihood of default.
Part of why they considered them safer was the view that they could keep refinancing based on the increasing value (and bundling points was OK because the increasing value). The models were overly optimistic on the housing bubble and relied way too much on increasing values for this to work. Models that showed even a flattening of value in major markets for these loan types (e.g. Las Vegas) showed an exponential default rate based on inability to pay the bump up amount and inability to refinance. The rating agencies knew this, but ignored it.
No. You got anything else?
Globe199 said...
Hi! I'm an independent voter! I vote for a different party in each election.
Last time, I voted for Democrats. But now they've pissed me off! So next time I've voting Republican.
But then THEY will piss me off, so in 2012 I'll vote Democratic again! Oh, I just can't decide which side of ANY FREAKING ISSUE I'm on!! Heaven help me!
~~~~~~~~~~
You are allowed to be confused and disillusioned! as are most of 538 conservative, winger trolls re: the sorry ass condition of their party.
~~~~~~~~~~
As the little old lady said, "Oh I never vote, it only encourages them." ;)
carry on
Woah! Lou Dobbs is quitting CNN?!
How about Dobbs as the 2012 Modern Whig Party candidate?
LOL Dobbs could be the teabagger candidate though
Lou Dobbs has at long last been mutually released from his contract at CNN...
apparently because Lou is so toxic that they cannot leave him on the air [like Rush]
maybe Lou will end up over at FAUX/POX News where he belongs...
or let him be the star in the Whig Party revival & garner the tea-bagger votes !!!
Wait... Charles think,s Levi is 'bait'?
Chuckie, baby, Levi's 19 now. He's legal, even for an old chickenhawk like you.
Well, Charles is against Lawrence v. Texas...
(P.S. Statler, you are totally a troll, but at least a hilarious one. :P)
Did you see my post with just a few hypothetical scenarios whereby Obama loses to Palin in 2012?
I sure did. IMO, they seemed to bear as much relation to reality as your hypothetical scenario where slaves in 1800s America freely voted to remain slaves.
Really? Perhaps you missed the news last week about 13 killed at Fort Hood . . .
Marist National Poll ~ Nov 2007
Hillary ~ 48%
Obama ~ 17%
Wanna know why McCain was the party of No! nominee in 2008:
CNN Dec 2007
Clinton/Guiliani ~ 51/45
Clinton/Romney ~ 54/43
Clinton/McCain ~ 48/50
Clinton Huckabee ~ 54/44
Obama/Guiliani ~ 52/45
Obama/Romney ~ 54/41
Obama/McCain ~ 48/48
Obama/Huckabee ~ 55/40
ie the party of No! falls in line ...
Yes Virginia, it's true, RINO McCain was by and away the best candidate out of a very, very, very weak Rep field to be their nominee er victim last year!
and of course, the current 2012 Rep sorry ass field is even weaker than 2008 if that is possible! :)
btw, speaking of RINO's lol whatever happened to that party of No! preemptive 2007 favorite Rudy Guiliani, hmm still giving speeches that contain a noun, verb and 9/11 ...
Too bad the rest of the GOP didn't go with our core values, rather than a RINO who they thought had the best chance. The ONLY good thing McCain has done in his entire political career was select Palin knowing that he was on the verge of losing his ENTIRE base.
There's no doubt in my mind that Palin is running for President next time, and she will get the Republican nomination. Maybe you will believe it once Nate tells you.
Unless Obama somehow cures cancer and eliminates the entire federal deficit (who knows, he "won" the Nobel Peace Prize), she will also win.
Charles…
I’ll bet you $1000 that Palin will not be the GOP presidential nominee in 2012.
Really? Perhaps you missed the news last week about 13 killed at Fort Hood . . .
As a person who skydives about two miles away from Fort Hood with a bunch of guys from there, it's hard for me even to express how unamusing I find this comment. To say nothing of your obvious hope for more.
Pragmatus:
Sure, same deal as Delorian and I have?
Persuter:
I don't hope for more base attacks or (God forbid) 9/11 mass killings. I much rather would have had McCain-Palin elected so there was LESS likelihood of that happening again. Peace through strength, I always say.
Oh goody. Statler takes on our newest troll, Charles. I'll take the gay crawdad 2:1 over the vapid blowhard. This oughta be good.
Who is still posting, Mr. Universe?
I much rather would have had McCain-Palin elected so there was LESS likelihood of that happening again. Peace through strength, I always say.
Oh yes, if McCain and Palin had been elected, Nidal probably wouldn't have shot anyone. Because he would have been so scared of American power. Good call. I can't imagine why I said your hypothetical scenarios were unrealistic.
Charles…
I don’t know what you have arranged with Deliorian, but my $1000 is on Sarah Palin not winning the 2012 GOP nomination.
If Sarah Palin is the 2012 Republican Party nominee for president, then I owe you $1000.
If someone other than Sarah Palin is the 2012 Republican Party nominee for president, then you owe me $1000.
Persuter:
You don't know that Nidal wouldn't have been so upset that he would have personally gone after McCain or Palin instead. I guess we'll never know, will we?
Pragmatus:
Delorian gave me 50:1 odds.
Palin will be the 2012 Republican Nominee? I'm guessing thats something even leftists can toast to.
Charles…
Nope. A straight bet—1:1. Are you saying you’re no longer interested?
To reiterate:
If Sarah Palin is the 2012 Republican Party nominee for president, then I owe you $1000.
If someone other than Sarah Palin is the 2012 Republican Party nominee for president, then you owe me $1000.
Lou Dobbs quits CNN. I predicted Lou would join the spinners at FOX some time back. He was getting to be an embarrassment to CNN (if it's possible to be any more embarrassing). Wonder if the ink on the FOX deal is dry yet.
wv: forthot. Yep, that's what I had.
You don't know that Nidal wouldn't have been so upset that he would have personally gone after McCain or Palin instead. I guess we'll never know, will we?
True. Nor will we ever know how slaves in 1800s America would have voted on their slavery. Your hypothetical scenarios are simply marvelous.
/sarcasm
Now, Y'all take notice. The only thing so far that has shut Charles up is Levi's dick. This is a very important lesson for how to deal with republicans. The only way to shut a Republican up is to shove a dick in their mouth, like I did just a little while ago here.
Worked on W, too. Yesiree, all we had to do was shove a little dick in his mouth, and he shut right up.
Works every time. I use this technique during political debates during class. And let me tell you, nobody expects it.
Pragmatus:
I'll stick with the better odds.
Since the Republican party has shrunk what with folks leaving the GOP and calling themselves independent, wouldn't you expect independents to lean more Republican?
Chuck,
Palin ruined it for the GOP in NY-23. What about the two GOP candidates for Governor?
They both told her to stay away.
Palin is poison and most in the GOP knows it.
Sorry, but your love affair with the empty skirt doesn't change that.
Since the Republican party has shrunk what with folks leaving the GOP and calling themselves independent, wouldn't you expect independents to lean more Republican?
But it doesn't make as fun a talking point as 'Independents abandoning Obama 2-to-1!!!!!1!!1!obi1!!1!!!'
That being said, Obama ALREADY allowed another terrorist attack on U.S. soil (a military base no less) so a couple more of those would do it.
I think we have a winner for the most idiotic comment of the year award.
Yes, Obama allowed it. Just like Bush allowed all the other disgruntled servicemen to commit various crimes.
beavis:
You blame Bush for 9/11, don't you?
Oh, Beavis,
Haven't you ever read The Art of War?
When your enemies are in the process of destroying themselves, do not interfere!
Let the Palins tear the GOP apart-don't stop them. Just grab some popcorn, pull up a chair, and enjoy the drama. So long as they're eating their own-offer them some ketchup, but get out of the way.
Me, I like tossing in a random kick or an elbow every once in a while, just to keep enough blood in the water to sustain the feeding frenzy.
P.P.S. if you think it's "easy" to write the #1 best-selling book on Amazon.com, go for it ; )
Step 1. Hire someone to write it for you
Step 2. Have a bunch of teabagger organizations put in massive orders.
Hmm, looks pretty easy to me.
'Did Fox News alter footage of a conservative rally ?'
does the FAUX News never end ???
make it up on the fly...
------------------------
"The Daily Show" host Jon Stewart pointed out inconsistencies in alternating "Hannity Show" shots of a recent conservative rally on the steps of the Capitol Building. This has led to accusations of Fox News splicing video footage shot at a larger Glenn Beck rally held in Washington two months ago with video shot at last week's rally, thus falsifying footage to make the more recent protest appear bigger than it was.
at: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20091111/ts_ynews/ynews_ts977
beavis:
You blame Bush for 9/11, don't you?
Nope, he knew about it but didn't cause it.
Nice try to deflect from your idiotic notion that the shooting in Texas is not only Obama's fault but that he actually allowed it to happen.
I guess all the other bad things that happen on large military bases are also the presidents fault.
more on FAUX News making up their own alternative reality...
----------------------------------
UPDATE: At the tail end of Sean Hannity's show Wednesday night, at approximately 8:55 pm EST, the Fox News host had the following message concerning the controversy:
"Although it pains me to say this, Jon Stewart, Comedy Central, he was right....It was an inadvertent mistake but a mistake nonetheless.”
----------------------------------
the CONs just keep on giving !!!
When your enemies are in the process of destroying themselves, do not interfere!
My bad!
It is good to see you back here.
DCM,
It is funny that anyone would watch that crap. From turning wayward republicans into democrats to altering photos of people they hate to look like they are monsters or at best disfigured is amusing in a "World Weekly News" kind of way.
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