Where in the Constitution, sir, do you see it authorized that Congress can be involved with "health care," or fund "health care"? I am asking here about the Constitution, not any court rulings. Thank you.This was the content, in its entirety, of an email I received last night from John Lofton, editor of TheAmericanView.com, a friend and supporter of Constitutional Party 2004 presidential candidate Michael Peroutka, and—get this—communications director for an organization called the Institute on the Constitution. We heard a lot from last summer’s protesters and people like Mr. Lofton about the sanctity of the Constitution and constitutional principles. Granting that tea partiers and people who send me silly emails should not necessarily be taken seriously as constitutional experts, there nonetheless seems to be an unusually high level of either uninformed or knowing manipulation of the Constitution in service to pre-ordained agendas.
I’m not a constitutional scholar. (N.B.: Protestors and other critics attacking the president ought to take note that he is.) Nor do I want to get into specific constitutional controversies. My aim is to rebut a few of the most absurd fallacies that seem to have gained traction--primarily but not exclusively in conservative circles--about the nature of American constitutionalism. To wit:
First, there is the fallacy that anything not specifically prescribed by the Constitution is unconstitutional. True, the Constitution doesn’t mention health care; but neither does it mention air traffic control. Is the FAA’s safeguarding of our skies from commercial crashes therefore unconstitutional? Of course not. First, there is the matter of the “necessary and proper” clause. And second, just because the Founders clearly meant to avoid the whole business of constitutionalizing specifically policies--see point #3, below--doesn't mean they didn't want the government to have any policies. If they did, why create a legislature?
Second, and conversely, there is the fallacy that anything not specifically proscribed by the Constitution is constitutionally permissible. We have one of those nutty preachers who shows up in the common areas of campus. One of his favorite claims is that because the Constitution makes no mention of the separation of church and state, we are free to infuse church into state. He’s right about the omission, but the Constitution doesn’t mention sex with minors, incest, or gay marriage, and so, by the omission-is-permission logic an adult man could consummate his marriage to his 14-year-old nephew. I mean, the Founders didn’t say anything about not doing that, so it must be OK constitutionally, right?
Third, too few people wrapping their policy arguments in constitutional claims understand that the Founders wrote a short charter dedicated almost exclusively to the design, structure, officers and powers of the government because they wanted to avoid constitutionalizing specific policies. The Constitution has only thrice ventured into the prescription or proscription of a specific public policy: the slavery provisions, the prohibition of alcohol, and the enactment of the income tax. The first was the most glaring, nearly fatal problem with the original document; the second, initiated by amendment, was such a bad idea it led to the only direct reversal of a previous amendment; and the third, well, you’d think anti-tax conservatives would have long ago advanced the argument that constitutionalizing policies is a bad idea, given the establishment of the national income tax. Oh, and since the latter two were policies enacted via amendment, that means only slavery--which the Founders avoided mentioning by name--was an “originalist” policy. That should be cautionary tale enough. Look, the Founders were brilliant, but imperfect, but the part they were near-perfectly brilliant about was not constitutionalizing policies, which is what they designated the elected and appointed branches of government to handle.
Fourth, the federal court system is--brace yourself now--constitutional. The quote from Mr. London implies that a matter decided in some way by courts must be either unconstitutional, or at least inferior or suspect. Come again? Given the four previous points, the business of the courts is to clarify and fill in constitutional gaps, especially on matters where the Constitution is silent or ambiguous. We don’t need the Supreme Court to clarify whether one needs to be 35 years old to be elected president, but we do need it to decide whether torture is constitutional. The sad consequence of the decades-long campaign to systematically denigrate “liberal activist” judges—even though there are “conservative activists” aplenty on the federal bench—has been to delegitimize the court system and judges generally, as if they are impostors who have visited themselves upon our democracy by force and without invitation. So, even if the original or amended Constitution did, in fact, prescribe or proscribe a whole list of policies, that still doesn’t mean federal courts can’t insert themselves. Last time I checked, the federal court system was provided for by the Constitution's Article III; ignoring the courts is ignoring the Constitution.
Fifth, if you want to be a strict constructionist, fine, but be one even when it’s inconvenient. Imagine if the Second Amendment read as follows: “A woman’s ability to survive childbearing being necessary to a free state, the right to abort a fetus shall not be infringed.” Now, do you think the anti-choice movement would simply ignore the leading clause and resign themselves to the idea that a woman has an unconditional right to abortion? Not a chance, and they'd be right to fight because the language clearly implies a conditional right. And yet we almost never hear gun rights advocates mention the actual Second Amendment’s leading clause, “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state….,” which at least suggests a collective right—indeed, obligation—to an armed defense of the state, rather than an individual’s right to use arms to protect himself and his property. For the record, I support gun rights with some restrictions, but that’s besides my point, which is that you can’t be so selective in citing the language in the Constitution that you chop off inconveniently ambiguous parts of the same sentence upon which you base a categorical claim.
Well, I’m sure this is not an exhaustive list of the sort of rhetorical chicanery currently used by proponents of this or opponents of that. I love the Constitution and believe in it. But my ears tend to perk up the moment somebody reaches for the Constitution and the Founders to justify an argument--especially when they do so fallaciously and without an understanding of the historical meaning of the document.
UPDATE: I obviously couldn't know at the time that the Washington Post's Ruth Marcus would be writing today about the supposed controversy over the constitutionality of health care reform and mandates, but sure enough, she has a nice takedown here. (Thanks and a hat-tip to 538 reader Mike in Maryland.)

302 comments
This problem is indeed very pervasive.
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/area_man_passionate_defender_of
"Area Man Passionate Defender of What He Imagines Constitution to Be"
"...the Constitution doesn’t mention sex with minors, incest, or gay marriage, and so, by the omission-is-permission logic an adult man could consummate his marriage to his 14-year-old nephew."
A valid point but an unfortunate choice of examples. You can almost feel the wingnuts here jumping to equate homosexuality with incest/pedophelia. They will feed on any opening they get.
Tom-
You are exactly right, but this has already been argued before the Supreme Court and the teaparty patriots of the day lost, big time. It was argued about social security and it brings in two clauses most prominently, the reserve clause and the "general welfare." It came down that Congress does have the right to tax for the general welfare, and healthcare is likely more easily argued as within the "general welfare" than social security was.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/court.html
"Preparing a report and transforming that report into a law, while heroic in scope in many ways, is not always the end of the story. Even though the Social Security Act was enacted into law on August 14, 1935, the country still had to hear from the Supreme Court. This was a new untested area of federal authority and it was inevitable that it would be challenged in the courts, and until the Supreme Court ruled, no one could be sure that the nascent Social Security Act would survive its infancy.
The constitutional basis of the Social Security Act was uncertain. The basic problem is that under the "reserve clause" of the Constitution (the 10th Amendment) powers not specifically granted to the federal government are reserved for the States or the people. When the federal government seeks to expand its influence in new areas it must find some basis in the Constitution to justify its action. Obviously, the Constitution did not specifically mention the operation of a social insurance system as a power granted to the federal government! The Committee on Economic Security (CES) struggled with this and was unsure whether to claim the commerce clause or the broad power to levy taxes and expend funds to "provide for the general welfare," as the basis for the programs in the Act. Ultimately, the CES opted for the taxing power as the basis for the new program, and the Congress agreed, but how the courts would see this choice was very much an open question. (See the sidebar on "A Tea Party That Changed History.")"
Further, the hypocrisy of the teaparty Constitutional positions is incredibly ironically funny and pretty sad.
1) They want to read the 2nd Amendment broadly and let anyone have a gun, anywhere, anytime, under any circumstance. A strict constructionist reading of the 2nd would leave guns only with militias.
2) They want to read the equal protection clause narrowly so gays can't marry. I would argue there is no reading, at all, of the equal protection clause that could allow gays to not marry, but... Further, Sen. Vitter asshole himself seemed to argue last week that the Loving v Virginia case that allowed interracial marriage was decided wrongly, a truly insane position (dies he also believe in slavery?), but I digress.
3) They want to read the reserve clause very narrowly and reserve all unenumerated rights to the states, at least when it is convenient for them.
4) They want the separation of church and state essentially removed from the Constitution entirely, because, well, they argue the Founders did not really mean it. Go read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists!
Thus, the teapartiers are deluded and uninformed, but that is par for the course. The truly scary part is that folks like Vitter and Ensign and Bachmann and Boehner can get elected with clearly uninformed and unsupportable positions.
Who understands the Constitution and is currently in the Senate? The comedian, Al Franken. Who gets it in the House? The gay guy, Barney Frank. Boy, that has got to piss off the teapartiers, huh?
Oh, and here is the ruling that makes social security, and healthcare, Constitutional.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/supreme1.html
Let us alo remember that the PREAMBLE to the constitution states that the constitution was formed to
"promote the general welfare".
"Welfare" at this time did not mean program for the poor as it does today. Rather, it is an open ended invitation (along the lines that Tom described) to allow the legislature to pass laws to best promote the life, liberty, property, and happiness of citizens.
"First, there is the fallacy that anything not specifically prescribed by the Constitution is unconstitutional. "Yep, is not to made to make liberties but to protect them.....(((
"Second, and conversely, there is the fallacy that anything not specifically proscribed by the Constitution is constitutionally permissible." Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...((((
"Third, too few people wrapping their policy arguments in constitutional claims understand that the Founders wrote"yep.......(((((
"Fourth, the federal court system is--brace yourself now--constitutional"okMarbury v. Madison/ 6th amendment.....(((((
"Fifth, if you want to be a strict constructionist, fine, but be one even when it̢۪s inconvenient."i agree... and would
thanks, i loved it!
Your effort to explain this to the teabaggers and right wing fanatics is commendable but is based on two wrong assumptions: 1) that they are capable of understanding anything other than simplistic slogans and 2) that they listen at all.
Nice to see it though. Pity the media can't seem to challenge these people.
Excellent read!
As someone who suspects there's a wing in the conservative movement out to destroy the country in part by shaking our confidence in the court system, I found this post to be very thought provoking.
This is not about the U.S. Constitution per se but the U.S. is a party to the United Nations and Article 25 of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads:
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
...
So does this mean the U.S. is under a treaty obligation to provide universal healthcare? Besides, the official Casus Belli of the Iraq War was that the Iraqis were ignoring U.N. resolutions.
Wait. You're leaving out one of the big ones: The 10th Amendment reserves to the states, powers not mentioned in the Constitution. Then when you try to tell them that the General Welfare Clause in Article I, Clause 8, takes care of that, they tell you that the General Welfare Clause is specifically limited to the items listed after it..coining money, setting up post offices, etc.
"But wait," you say, "Clause 9 spells out the limits of Congress by title,so if those limits are specifically mentioned in Clause 8 as you say, why bother writing a Clause 9?" Then they tell you..get this..that Clause 9 was reserved for the really egregious acts that Congress could not engage in. So, the Constitution distinguishes between serious and not as serious violations. Okay.
So, how can you believe that this gang believes in enacting any laws for health care reform? They think it's unconstitutional....so they're going to tell state courts the limits to which they can award a medical malpractice patient? They're going to tell the states who can and can't do business in their state? What's conservative about that?
A good side read that supports Tom's article is an article, titled "'Illegal health reform'? Not quite." in the Wednesday, November 25, 2009 edition of The Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/24/AR2009112402815.html?hpid%3Dopinionsbox1&sub=AR
Warning - The tea baggers are out in force in the comments section.
Mike in Maryland
I've got two morelogical inconsitancies for you in regards to the general "Constitutionalist" view point.
They argue that the Constituation was written perfectly and by the most brilliant minds ever and so should be strictly read as is without modification (by their translation guide of course). However, they ignore the fact that the framers themselves, knowing that times change and they were mere mortal men doing their best, wrote into the Constitution the ability to change/alter it if the need should arise down the road.
Secondly, procedural practices such as the filibuster are NOT a part of the Constitution but rather are "house rules", if you will, added by the Senate for the Senate but were never envisioned or proposed by the Framers. Now a truly strict Constitutionalist should be screaming bloody murder at all of the politicians threatening the use of a filibuster in this debate process.
Sorry about the typos above.
Whatever the merits of the public option or the odds of its enactment, AFAIK no serious student of the appeals courts believes it will be held unconstitutional if it does become law. And the Supreme Court is the arbiter of what is and isn't constitutional, not some wingnut emailer.
I too am worried at the inconsistent shrills about what the Constitution "really" is. The right wingers treat it like a sacred document, a religous text. Being an American is not a religion and the Constitution is not the Bible. They treat it the way the Puritans treated the Bible, as a self contatined, exhaustive guide on how reality should be. All questions can be answered by consulting the Constitution and how THEY interpret it.
Fact is, the Constitution is the law of the land, but it is only a legal, and while also a philisophical, document upon which all American Law must be built and consistent with, it is not a complete blue print of what society must be, it doesn't contain the necessary details or ability to address unforseen events. The Constitution cannot be violated, but they must realize there are a plethora of policies that are neither prohibitied or even addressed by the Constitution nor are they unconstitutional.
Off topic: Hey Nate every think of switching the posting word verification to the reCAPTCHA program? Just a suggestion.
Whatever. Knock yourself out with the constitutional debate. Meanwhile, some recent polling has the Health Bill polling in the 30s. 15 to 20 points underwater. They simply cannot pass this thing with numbers like that. The unpopularity of the bill has only gotten worse in the fall, and can no longer be primarily blamed on the tea parties and town halls. Face it: Obama has failed to sell this dog's breakfast. The people do not want it, and all of the passion is on the opposition side. This is a democracy, and either the Dems bow to it, or flaunt their contempt ("we know better") and suffer an electoral wipeout. My prediction is that they throw the president under the bus, and pass some minor insurance reform in the end.
Great post, Tom--this is the best takedown of the "health care reform is unconstitutional!" mess I've seen. Does anything fit the "promote the general welfare" clause better than health care?
As for Jeff, I think the question of polling on the bill is interesting. I'm interested in how many of those who oppose the bill oppose it from the liberal side, instead of the conservative side. For example, if someone asked me whether I supported it right now....I'd have to think about it. A weak public option, the Stupak amendment, and other provisions have me nervous about how much good it will do. But if you asked me whether I'd rather pass this bill or nothing at all, I wouldn't have to hesitate.
That could explain why (as Republicans conveniently forget) provisions in the bill (such as a public option, or the individual mandate, or eliminating rescissions) are still extremely popular.
Thanks Tom. That was a delicious bit of common sense in a "fun size" serving. More please!
I like to put this more succinctly.
The Constitution isn't a game of Bingo. Nor is it Scrabble.
Literalism doesn't make any sense, because all texts (language in general actually) is contextual and subjective. That doesn't mean that there isn't common agreement on the meanings of either words or documents; it actually means the opposite. By and large society functions by consensus or majority as to what the meanings of documents or words are.
Lastly, far far too many people conflate documents like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Literalism makes even less sense when most the people who ascribe to it, don't even know the texts of the documents.
Not to disagree with your larger point, but the Constitution *totally* makes mention of the separation of church and state. To quote (from memory, so I might be missing a word) from the First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor restricting the free exercise thereof."
Now, that makes no mention of the Executive Branch or the states (which were incorporated into this by the 14th Amendment), but that is clearly some statement about the separation of church and state.
@knowtheory
The first time I read your comment i read "literalism" as "liberalism" and rolled my eyes thinking it was another wingnut blaming the woes of the world on "liberals" (however you define that term)
But after reading it again - agreed.
Jeff--
So NOW public opinion matters? Did it matter a few months back when healthcare was clearly polling well with a solid majority? Does it matter when we talk about the public option, which still polls relatively well? I love the selective use of polls to make your point. Really classy.
And, by the way, the "poll numbers" you city are hilariously out of touch.
I hesitate to jump into the discussion, since it's framed by your post as equating greater Constitutional limits on the Government with wacky right wing views. That being said, I think that I would feel more comfortable with the judicial review of Constitution issues if there were at least some effort to construe the Ninth Amendment as meaning at least something.
To start with "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." and to decide that this doesn't actually confer any actual rights is, in my opinion, completely at odds with any rational interpretation of the 9th Amendment.
The difference between the 9th and 10th Amendments is that that 9th Amendment reserves rights to the people and the 10th assigns powers to the governments of the states. The "necessary and proper clause" can be construed as giving the Federal government the power to conduct a wide range of business, but I don't think there is any such limitation on rights. I think that instead of stretching the 14th Amendment to cover abortion and privacy rights, it would be much more sensible to make a bit broader interpretation of the 9th Amendment.
With real unemployment something like 20% why do you Libs keep wringing your hands over this healthcare reform mess that is just another job killing proposition of the Left, like Cap and Trade (a scheme built upon the fraudulent Global Warming hoax and designed to enrich Goldman Sachs at the expense of average Americans)?
Conservatives are loving the Dilemma the Left is finding itself in. Either you pass HCR and get killed in the polls or you don’t pass it you get killed in the polls! This is a problem based on incompetence coupled with arrogance.
Did you really think that ridiculous Stim-U-Less Bill that had more in it for ACORN than the economy and the people would solve this Recession, a Recession brought on by the New England bobsy twins of Dodd and Frank, despite the misgivings of George W Bush?
As Bill Clinton (who never got more than 45% of the vote nationally and was a marginal candidate) reminded us all: It’s the Economy, Stupid!
Well now, we can say the same to Obama (who really does suk at being President). The man’s serene arrogance is so confounding, as is the ignorance of the Libs here of their own lack of popularity and their political fate.
Cast into Gehenna, you all will be over the next two electoral cycles!
PS: Rolling Stone is calling Obama a “Wall Street Sellout”! I have been saying this for months. You can see it in his policies which favor Wall Street over Main Street, his biggest ally: Goldman Sachs, the IG Farben of the Obama Reich. There is a redistribution of wealth going on in America: From the People to Wall Street. Sarah Palin will make Obama pay for this! Ha! It’s too funny! Caribou Barbie who went to a half dozen schools to crib together an undergraduate degree brings down the product of Columbia and Harvard! I bet she does it all from her Twitterfeed!
Petekent01 (on twitter)
Here's another dilemma for the Idiot in Chief: More and more economists believe that absent a second stimulus, we will have a double dip recession. Obama will be lucky to clip 40% of the vote if that proves true!
No way he gets another stimulus and HCR. There is no money for it. And less patience and confidence in Obama and the Congressional Dems for anything to be passed without GOP imprimatur any longer.
Worse, having to pass a second stimulus will finally open the debate we should have heard on the first stimulus, and it will be shown how it was nothing more than a recovery bill for ACORN and other kooky Left Wing causes and the Democratic Party will suffer its worst defeat in history as Sarah Palin, Tim Pawlenty and Mitt Romney (to name a few) lead the charge against the so-called progressive agenda and the deceitful Democratic Party and its poster children: Pelosi, Reid, Dodd and Frank, and of course, the arrogant Maoist Obama (to name a few)!
petekent01 (on twitter)
One thing about the t-baggers that bugs me is how they always say America has drifted away from what the "Founding Fathers wanted."
An old poli sci professor (who according to Open Records donated to Tommy Thompson and McCain) once told me to never trust anyone who cited something to the general "Founding Fathers" because they didn't exactly agree on everything. Or anything. A quick overview of Constitutional Convention will reveal how divided they were. In fact, if anything, the Founders were compromisers (hello 3/5ths and bicameral legislature), something the T-baggers should recognize.
Also, I think that the important thing about movement towards the Tenth Amendment on the right is not it's immediate impact, but the possible impact on the debate years down the road. The more the idea of the Tenth Amendment becomes popularized the more the debate shifts in that direction. The issue is not whether one side or the other wins the debate today, but what is going to be happening in the debate twenty years from now.
I think that the right in America has been pretty adept at shifting the debate and that is one of the reasons that the Democrats are pretty much right in the middle and there is little to the left of them.
@nrizzo07
I came to the comments to mention that. Maybe said preacher doesn't count the Ammendments as the real Constitution? :)
Although I've also seen some misunderstandings going the other way here about that Ammendment. What it doesn't say, what makes no sense for it to say, is that you should preclude someone who is particularly faithful from holding office.
Jeff.Bragg said...
I hesitate to jump into the discussion, since it's framed by your post as equating greater Constitutional limits on the Government with wacky right wing views.
This is an important point. There can indeed be sane discussions about limits on Government. As Bradford points out there has been sane discussions around disagreements around it, resulting in settled law. What the Constitutional Party really appears to be about rearguing a boatload those cases and seriously rewrite parts of it.
Revisiting issues via SCOTUS, and superceding prior precedence, has happened from time to time, on a much smaller scale. Also amendments also do happen. Though some of the more extreme examples of the Constitutional wackery call for wholesale replacement of parts of the Constitution...or mindboggling redefinition of the English language.
I don't think it is a coincidence of the overlap that exists between Biblical "literalists" and Constitutional "literalists", or the the groups would through in with each other. They are based on the similar reading comprehension fallacies and mindsets, with the associated self-serving inconsistancies.
Also not mentioned in the constitution: the Air Force. And the Interstate Highway System. Indeed, James Madison, "Father of the Constitution" vetoed a bill for roads and bridges and canals because he thought it was unconstitutional. Things change. Surprise, surprise.
Actually, Article I of the Constitution limits Congress to the powers expressly enumerated in that Article. The Necessary and Proper Clause is not an independent source of congressional power. Rather, the N&P Clause simply authorizes Congress to enact laws necessary and proper to exercise the preceding enumerated powers.
That being said, the Commerce Clause grants Congress the power to set the terms and premiums of health insurance offered in interstate commerce. There is some doubt whether the power to regulate commerce extends to affirmatively forcing citizens to buy health insurance or any other good or service. However, Obamacare does not do this. Rather, it punitively taxes you if you fail to buy the health insurance designated by the government. This is permissible under Congress' taxation powers.
Just because Obamacare is bad public policy does not make it unconstitutional.
I can't be bothered to read posters who use vulgarities like calling the Tea Party Protesters "tea baggers". This is apparently a not so veiled reference to a homosexual sex act involving one male's testicles and another man's mouth. It was apparently popularized by Anderson Cooper on CNN. By his mouth. I don't think AC has any balls.
The larger point, of course, is that the Media (and the craven Liberal posters here) are part of Obama's Stalinist plot to silence dissent by using derision and demonization to try and destroy ideological opposition. Far from being the most transparent administration in history, Obama's White House functions much more like the Kremlin.
It should shame you all to the core to be associated with such ideological tyranny.
petekent01 (on twitter)
Nice post...one quibble though. I might argue that there is one other prescription for public policy in the original document. It even bears, indirectly, on health care. In article 1 section 8 Congress is authorized to protect intellectual property "for limited Times", explicitly in order "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts".
PK is the most derisive poster here and posts about our derision. You and Sarah deserve each other Pete, enjoy.
PeteKent, the Oxford American Dictionary defines "teabagger" as "a person who protests President Obama's tax policies and stimulus package, often through local demonstrations known as "Tea Party" protests (in allusion to the Boston Tea Party of 1773)". So why don't you get your mind out of the gutter?
Bill-
I think that pretty explicitly refers to patents, trademarks, and copyrights which only have a tangential relationship to the current healthcare debate.
I have come to believe that this is primarily about bad religion. People who wish to see the constitution as some sort of unchangeable document, one that supplies all the answers, one from which you can take snippets out of context to prove your point... these people learned these techniques in church. They have been lead through this process by demagoguic preachers for generations, men who twist the Bible to serve their own ends. These folks are just transferring that twisting on to our other "holy" document, the constitution.
Stupid, arrogant people somehow always believe that they are intelligent and humble. Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry in response.
Do I take the poster's analysis to mean the Constitution is an entirely open-ended document, intended to mean only what the person in the big chair says it means?
@PeteKent
Excuse me your bigotry is showing... Teabagging as a sex act has no orientation implied, only that a man is being oraly pleasured by someone. Straight people are equally capable of teabagging.
I'm not aware of any serious or informed person questioning whether the federal government is within its rights to provide health insurance or care. We've had Medicare for over four decades now.
My serious constitutional qualm with the health bill is not the provision of care, but the mandate for every citizen to buy health insurance. Where in the Constitution, or in case law, is there a basis for the federal government's prerogative to tell anyone that they must buy something?
I would actually have no problem with a new tax to pay for a universal health care program, and then each individual could decide to use it, or go with private insurance, or choose not to have insurance at all. I'm a supporter of universal health care but I'm with the tea people in feeling very uncomfortable that the federal government wants to compel me to buy things, and fine or jail me if I don't. Frankly if the mandate were challenged and made it to the Supreme Court as it is currently composed, I'm almost certain it would be struck down as unconstitutional.
Alice-
Constitutional interpretation is done by the courts, not the president. Did you people take civics?
In other news, Rasmussen proven to be lying, yet again: http://www.pollster.com/blogs/obama_approval_house_effects.php
I love how people on the left are mad at the president for not actively controlling the health care legislation, while people on the right label the entire effort "Obamacare". Truly, the president has a job in which everything he does or doesn't do makes someone unhappy.
I am certainly glad he is a smarter, more patient person than I am. And it feels good to be able to say that for a change.
Tom Schaller hits another one out of the park! Wonderful, thoughtful, original thinking.
Now... reverence for a very old document, and fanatic insistence that it be taken literally and not added to or altered in any way despite changes in world conditions. Does this, perhaps, remind you of anything?
It's no coincidence that the people who insist on a rigid, literal interpretation of the Constitution are the very same people who demand the same treatment of the Bible.
This has no relevance to the actual content of the respective documents but it does reveal volumes about the people who protect them so zealously. Such rigidity is (any psychiatrist woudl tell you) the result of fear. Poeple animated by fear seek to impose order on their surroundings by clinging to rigid strictures and rules of order.
Fearful people are drawn to the extreme right wing, whose members are afraid of EVERYTHING. They fear change, progress, human sexuality, "the poor", people from otehr countries, people of other races, people with more education than them, nebulous "terrorists"... well, the list is pretty much endless.
Hey, Marie:
How stupid can you be?
The term "teabagging" was applied to the sex act long before it became associated with the Tea Party protesters. That the Dicktionary would pick it up and apply it in the way that Anderson Cooper and Rachel Madow did (hmmm, what do those two have in common?), only shows how the media establishment is nothing more than an adjunct of political liberalism and the degree to which the Left Wing Animal Farm approach to the people is spreading.
Just because for the moment you may agree with the policies being favored by Obama and his Stalinist cohorts is no reason to surrender your freedom!
Remember: Any deviation from the ideolgocial line will be punished and the tumbrils can come for you as well.
petekent01 (on twitter)
Brendan-
You must have auto insurance, but driving is not a right. Also, at the state level Massachusetts (thanks to Mitt Romney) requires its residents to have health insurance. At the fed level you are required to pay taxes, register for the selective service, and myriad other stuff. Health insurance is different, but not that different.
@Bart DePalma
"There is some doubt whether the power to regulate commerce extends to affirmatively forcing citizens to buy health insurance or any other good or service."
FDR's Supreme Court affirmed that the Commerce clause can be used to regulate yields of crops that are meant only for consumption by the growers. There is sufficient precedent for the federal government to use the Commerce clause to essentially do whatever it wants. If I were forced to defend the constitutionality of a health insurance mandate I'd hang my hat on the Commerce clause.
The Daily Pander said...
Do I take the poster's analysis to mean the Constitution is an entirely open-ended document, intended to mean only what the person in the big chair says it means?
Roughly speaking, yes. Except there are [currently] 9 big chairs and they are expected to give a good deal of deference to what previous people in the big chair have opined.
But that's how language works, right? Because there are statements made in the Constitution that are somewhat vague, thus inherently open-ended, and intentionally interact with each other to define the whole. Judgements must be made.
PETE KENT:
If folks attend rallies with teabags hanging from their hats, people are going to call them teabaggers. That's just how the world is.
I could post hundreds of similar photos of teabaggers... though, interestingly, some of the teabag hats images are now being scrubbed. Gee, I wonder why? LOL
@Bradford
I don't think there's a federal mandate to purchase car insurance. I'm pretty sure that's the province of the states.
Again, there are plenty of things the federal government is within its authority to tell us to do or not do, but I ask again for one example of an individual being forced by the federal government to buy or own something.
@Tom Schaller: If you want to keep it simple, just tell John Lofton that Congress has the power to regulate health care and health insurance under the Commerce Clause under the U.S. Constitution. Seeing as insurance is interstate commerce and health providing institutions are interstate commerce, this is pretty obvious.
As for providing of subsidies, i.e. funding health care, that will directly affect the price of premiums for everyone since more people will be in the system and risk pooling and all that jazz. Directly affecting the pricing of interstate goods and services through subsidies, should I dare say that would fall under the Commerce Clause?
@Wolf of Aquarius: The treaty was not self-executing so no the U.S. is not under an obligation to provide universal health care.
speaking of demonization, even at the height of the stalinist gulags, the ussr had a lower rate of incarceration than the us currently does.
in fact the us has the highest rate of incarceration recorded in the history of states thanks to reagan.
in stalin's gulags you had to work in brutal conditions.
in reagan's america people look the other way while you are raped and caught in the crossfires of gang and police brutality.
so if you want to reference repressiveness and brutality, don't soil stalin's name, call it reaganist.
How odd.
Pete Kent...who normally does only monologue, not dialogue... actually responds to someone. He speaks to Marie about... (wait for it)... a "perverted sex act!
Republicans are morbidly obsessed, fascinated and terrified by sex. And yet these sick puppies want to run the country.
Now, THAT'S scary.
PeteKent,
The Constitution is to be read literally, while the dictionary is open to interpretation? Have I got that right?
One of his favorite claims is that because the Constitution makes no mention of the separation of church and state, we are free to infuse church into state.
He's right, but he'd have a much stronger argument if he just kept with the wording that is there: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
anyway, right wingers thrive entirely on their ability to interpret anything into supporting their greed, bigotry, delusions, sociopathy and petty preferences.
they are children in expectation, mind and action.
see: doug coe of the family
william kristol
antonin scalia
Tom -
I'm sorry, but the Constitution says explicitly exactly what you claim that it DOESN'T say. Those powers that are not specifically given to the fedceral government ARE, in fact, explicitly WITHHELD from the federal government. You admitted that you are way outside your area of expertise here, and you should never have written the article.
The reason that your e-mailer asked you to look at the constitution rather than court rulings is that the constitution, and not the opinions of judges, is the Supreme Law of the nation. The failure of judges to obey their oaths does not change the constitution. The judicial SYSTEM may be constitutional, but the constitution itself does not change based on the rulings of judges. The constitution is what it is, until amended.
@filistro
It seems it was actually Fox that was the first network outlet that reported on the use of "Teabag" as a verb, by the www.reteaparty.com. Not much of step from there to turning it into an adjective. Not only is it a really pretty obvious name, the origins come from within the ranks of the movement originators.
Why not answer the question more directly?
Congress can regulate interstate businesses (such as health insurers) because of section 8 which says, "Congress shall have the power to regulate Commerce ... among the several States"
Congress can raise the money to do so under, again, section 8:
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"
Health insurance is pretty much the perfect example of interstate commerce, too. So long as citizens can move freely, any business which sells insurance is doing a multi-state transaction.
why would a bunch of staunch reactionaries want to adopt a revolutionary event like the tea parties anyway?
they should just call themselves "loyalists" (loyal to the capitalist elite)
Can we flag petekent for spam & over posting? He's truly like a fly caught in ointment and thinks he's got a buzzzz
I read this fab blog all the time and deeply appreciate Nate's genius in taking on the old established "polls" My own view is until each poll is done by the 100,000's, they are pretty useless because they smother & stifle the "one rock starting a landside, idea" "time" that is human nature, et all. (besides WHO they call, in the internet age)
So I'm relevant..... I love the constitution & know sometime in my lifetime the Equal Rights Amendment will be passed :)
Anyway, Thank You
This post was far below your usual standards. A man can't marry his 14-year old nephew because of statutory law, it is perfectly constitutional. You argue that the "anti-choice" movement (I favor legalizing full-blown infanticide, but I still wouldn't use your term) would behave in a certain way. Maybe they would, but they'd be incorrect.
Courts have sworn a duty to uphold the constitution. In that respect they are not different from the legislative and executive branches. If one branch claims a law is constitutional, members of the others have a duty not to go along if that law actually is unconstitutional.
Why did the prohibition in alcohol require an amendment in the first place, if we prohibit drugs without one? The reason is because powers are strictly limited under the constitution. "Necessary and proper" does not mean "necessary to do what we'd like", they are corollaries to specified powers. So, yes, there is no constitutional authorization for the F.A.A. There is a mechanism for adapting the constitution to changing circumstances: the amendment process.
Right, but God will kill us if we don't strictly adhere to Jerry Falwell's interpretation of the Constitution.
I don't want to die by God. :(
@Stan
So it's a vast 220 year conspiracy involving upwards of a hundred judges and the thousands that have appointed them.
OR you can't read worth a damn. One of those two.
Seriously, what could you call these people except teabaggers?
A million teabags! Sheesh.
Teabaggers is what they called themselves until Anderson Cooper, who is really a very, very nice man :-) took pity on the poor schmucks and let them know they were humiliating themselves.
Anderson was like the kind, caring kid who removes the KICK ME sign from the back of the class nerd, and what does he get for thanks? Scorn and abuse.
Naughty teabaggers! LOL
The judicial SYSTEM may be constitutional, but the constitution itself does not change based on the rulings of judges. The constitution is what it is, until amended.
The judicial system was put in place by the constition in order to officially decide how the constition was to be interpreted when it wasn't immediately obvious. The constitution is what it is, until amended, or confusing, and then the judicial system is mandated to clear up the confusion.
This isn't rocket science. Heck, it predates rocket science.
Tom brings up the right issues, but could have nailed them down a little harder. As some readers have noted, the "necessary and proper" clause is only given force by the commerce clause. But the commerce clause is a very limited restriction on federal legislative powers. Virtually anything remotely related to an economically relevant issue is subject to federal legislation. You should read a synopsis of that relatively recent medical marijuana case. Every piece of the health care proposal is constitutional under the standards applied in that case. It's not even a sensible question. End of story.
@Alice,Bill
I think that pretty explicitly refers to patents, trademarks, and copyrights which only have a tangential relationship to the current healthcare debate.
Actually, because the language is "promote the progress of science and useful arts", there is actually no explicit mandate to patents or copyright (and even if there was, it wouldn't extend to trademarks, which are a purely business issue).
But even that isn't clear enough. The supreme court is currently deciding Bilski v Kappos, wherein the question of what exactly "useful arts" means is being considered. But there's nothing explicitly laying out patents or copyrights, even though these were known concepts at the time of the writing of the constitution, so there must have been a reason that they left out such explicit language.
Still not sure how any of it would relate to health care though.
cahealth... last year I spent some time teaching Pete Kent how to edit his posts so he could say in 50 words what normally takes him 500. I also proved to him that if he did so, people would actaully read his posts instead of skimming. (Any real writer would rather be shot than skimmed.)
He actually gave it a try and did pretty well for a while, but alas, I see he has totally backslidden and is now even more awful than before.
A lost cause, I'm afraid.
Dear Stan,
Just to quickly add to what some other readers have mentioned, the idea of a constitutional system is simply conceptually incoherent without the creation of some entity empowered to enforce it (i.e., the Supreme Court). Was Congress supposed to enforce the Constitution's limitations on the power of Congress on itself? "Judicial opinions," poorly reasoned or not, are the legitimate manner by which the Constitution is enforced. I'm not a huge fan of this setup either, but that's just the way it works. If you don't like it, take it up with the Framers.
Lots of good comments, but in particular, the key point of truth in the opposition is that the Federal government ONLY has powers that it has specifically been granted. This is why most amendments have the clause "Congress shall have the power to enforce ..." at the end. Because otherwise, the 10th amendment kicks in and they would have no power to legislate about it.
The real debate on the constitutionality of health insurance reform is about the BROADNESS of the commerce clause, and whether the individual mandate is a tax. Obama himself is on thin ice, arguing that it is not a tax, but Ruth Marcus in WaPo today makes it quite clear that is pretty much HAS to be a tax to pass constitutional muster.
These are real issues deserving of better treatment. If the law is not crafted well, it could well be tossed out, or at least parts of it.
BTW, it was Wickard v. Filmore that allowed Scalia to argue that growing Pot in your own basement for your own use was an act of interstate commerce. So much for strict constructionist consistency.
Oh dear. I guess you could file this bit of news under "another country heard from."
It's even sort of on topic: Palin strolled over, looking down on Walsh and her crew to tell them that "Canada needs to dismantle its public health-care system and allow private enterprise to get involved and turn a profit."
"Basically, she said government should stop doing the work that private enterprise should do," Walsh said.
Words fail me.
Enumeration in the Constitution shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people.
The Ninth Amendment pretty much say strict constructionists are full of crap.
I can't be bothered to read posters who use vulgarities like calling the Tea Party Protesters "tea baggers". This is apparently a not so veiled reference to a homosexual sex act involving one male's testicles and another man's mouth. It was apparently popularized by Anderson Cooper on CNN. By his mouth. I don't think AC has any balls.
Teabaggers comes from the free republic from a brain-dead idea last Febuary with Operation Teabag
It was your fellow dumbasses that brought the term to common use.
With regard to:
First, there is the fallacy that anything not specifically prescribed by the Constitution is unconstitutional.
Are you referring to this fallacy?
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The larger point, of course, is that the Media (and the craven Liberal posters here) are part of Obama's Stalinist plot to silence dissent by using derision and demonization to try and destroy ideological opposition.
I know I shouldn't feed this dumbass troll, but...
So let me get this straight, calling those that held an event called operation teabag teabaggers, is a plot to quash dissent? And it is Obama's doing somehow?
What exactly was the Bush administrations usage ofd terms like traitor to define those that opposed policies that we are paying dearly for today?
Seriously, what goes on in the heads of you retards?
@Vern
Would it help to instead call it instead an impost or an excise? :) Yeah, it would be difficult for that penalty for non-insurance to be, in Constitutional terms, to not fit somewhere in the "tax" category.
Ryan alluded to it earlier, but what these "strict constructionists" and "teabaggers" and others completely miss is that the Founders themselves were completely at odds at the meaning of what they had written. Hamilton and Jefferson were two of the strongest personalities of the founding generation and they had diametrically opposed ideas of the meaning of the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson detested Hamilton and vice versa. Jefferson was so upset at Hamilton's closeness to Washington that he initiated a rumor campaign that Washington was basically losing his mind in his advanced age. There was a left/right (or strong federal gov't/state centered gov't) almost from the beginning and it hasn't abated since. So whenever someone says something to the effect of lumping all the founders in for the sake of some argument, just tune them out.
All I know is that I'm outraged every minute of my twice daily commute as I drive down Interstate 5. I can't believe the Eisenhower administration and their massive disrespect towards the founders' obvious wish to avoid Federal Highways!
In all seriousness, this "Healthcare is Unconstitutional" argument is patently ridiculous for the same reason "Freeways are Unconstitutional" is ridiculous. The Constitution was written in the late 1700's, and people of the time lived a drastically different life than we do today. The court system was set up for the exact reason that unforeseen events would occur, and it is necessary to adjust what is "government" from time to time.
Sorry, meant to say a strong left/right divide almost from the beginning. Adding parenthesis through off my thought process.
The Constitution has only thrice ventured into the prescription or proscription of a specific public policy: the slavery provisions, the prohibition of alcohol, and the enactment of the income tax.
Wrong. "Specific public policy" is a somewhat fuzzy concept, but here are some specific policies that are constitutionally mandated or prohibited:
* Definition of crime of treason
* Specific evidentiary requirements for conviction of treason
* No bills of attainder
* No titles of nobility
* States must extradite accused criminals to other states
* People may not be required to quarter troops
* Warrants require probable cause
* Indictment for capital offenses requires a grand jury
* Taking property by eminent domain requires compensation
* Right to trial by jury in lawsuits for more than $20
* States cannot be sued on federal court
* States that deny universal manhood suffrage have their representation in Congress reduced
* People may not be denied the right to vote because they didn't pay taxes
* Congressional salary increases don't take effect until after the next election.
If you want to play constitutional theorist, at least get what the document says right.
With regard to:
First, there is the fallacy that anything not specifically prescribed by the Constitution is unconstitutional.
Are you referring to this fallacy?
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
*sign
Congress has the authority to regulate commerce and promote the general welfare.
The only fallacy is your willful misreading of the 10th amendment.
Chris1974: Hamilton was a monarchist. A better comparison would be Madison and Jefferson, both of whom believed the powers of the federal government should be subject to strict limits.
Yes, "strict constructionism" would be a con even if it weren't ideologically inconsistent with the constitution. Given their tendency to ignore the First, Fourth, Eighth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments, and the supremacy of the Legislative Branch, so-called "strict constructionists" have no problem with undeclared wars, a unitary executive, domestic surveillance, banning flag desecration, banning gay marriage, etc etc etc.
But the bigger problem with the very idea of strict constructionism is that it explicitly rejects the doctrine of unenumerated rights. As in, people have only the narrowist interpretation of explicitly granted rights.
This is a rather odd position, given the Ninth Amendment, which says: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
That almost exactly states that there are unenumerated rights.
Oddly enough, so called "originialists" (those who believe we should interpret law by trying to judge the motives of its authors) also reject unenumerated rights. Odd, given that many drafters of the Constitution opposed to the Bill of Rights worried that expressed concern that "some fool in the future would interpret the enumerated rights as the only ones given to the people." But these guys were pretty prescient in many ways I guess.
Strict Constructionism is an Orwellian codeword like Biblical Literalism. Just as literalism regarding the Bible has been defined by rapture-fetish cultists to mean "reading every third word of Revelations backwards and screening through the Scofield code," so a strict reading of the Constitution has come to mean "anything that benefits the Republicans."
@filistro
"We're in a bookstore, at a public event, in a place one would think was a bastion of free speech. And no one was allowed to ask questions. What are they afraid of?"
Exactly what happened at the loading dock, I'd imagine. :) She's a hothouse violet that would die quickly outside the confines of a heavily protected and controlled environment.
I wonder if she figured out that Marg is a joke character?
P.S. But I am confused. You boycot Palin threads but import her here? :/
@A
I think Tom was referring to proscriptions limiting the rights of the public, i.e. recognizing slavery and banning alcohol (it seems to me that banning non-apportioned direct taxes would better fall under the category of limiting the power of Congress). Virtually all of the rights enshrined in the Constitution, including some of those you mentioned, restrict the powers of the government in some way.
If Tom had limited himself to using slavery and prohibition as the examples of public policy that proscribes certain conduct, he may have had a stronger case.
Congress has the authority to regulate commerce and promote the general welfare.
The only fallacy is your willful misreading of the 10th amendment.
The meaning of the 10th amendment is pretty clear. The Constitution delegates specific powers to the federal government, and reserves all others to the states or the people. Congress does not have unlimited authority.
It's really unfortunate that the American left doesn't realize the real damage it's pro-federal government stance does to our agenda. You're all defending a broad reading of the commerce clause as some sort of liberal panacea. The reality is that the federal government incorporates a structural bias favoring rural, conservative areas. For those of you not familiar with the structural literature, consider the fact that for every federal law blue America passes that red America must abide by, red America passes one in turn. We'd all be better off if we kept our politics, right or left, as local as possible.
The strict constructionist/living constitution divide has become partisan. It really shouldn't be.
"The real debate on the constitutionality of health insurance reform is about the BROADNESS of the commerce clause..."
Definitely true, and the debate is an interesting and intriguing one, with intelligent arguments made on both sides. But it's purely academic. The Supreme Court has given the commerce clause extremely broad scope, scope which surely extends to health care reform. This is settled law.
Quick off-the-cuff thought. Isn't social security, in a sense, forcing people to buy something? In this case, it's a particular pension program. Sure, you can say that making people pay for it is an act of taxation, and, in turn, providing the pension is simply a harmless public service. But if it's ok to split the "transaction" up that way, doesn't the argument that the government shouldn't/can't/never has force people to buy something (which I never quite got anyway) fall apart? Where am I wrong here?
Nate…
Please get rid of the $#%@&# audio ad at upper right. You are driving people away from your site.
Dwight said: P.S. But I am confused. You boycot Palin threads but import her here? :/
Ah... but it's not an inconsistency. Not at all.
I boycott the threads because they contain the implicit suggestion that this horrific national joke is somehow to be taken seriously.
OTOH I remain at all times entirely in favor of isolated snark. In fact, it's one of my favorite things ;-)
Ryan…
Social Security is not a pension program. It is a government program to provide financial security for the retired and disabled paid for by taxes on people who are currently working. Calling it a “pension” program is one of the tricks the GOP has been trying to use to redefine the program legally so it will be easier to destroy.
Tom,
Thank you for this excellent (albeit selective) categorization of false arguments from the so-called "strict constructionist" side. While I am not a constitutional scholar either, I have studied constitutional law.
Maybe it's nitpicking, but I do take some small exception to your comment that "Last time I checked, the federal court system was provided for by the Constitution's Article III; ignoring the courts is ignoring the Constitution."
What you say is true, but I would like to elaborate a little to flesh your statement out. Article III really only establishes a Supreme Court. It leaves Congress the option to establish a federal court system, but it doesn't exactly mandate one. While it would be somewhat of a nuclear option, Congress could, if it really pleased and barring SCOTUS, completely remove the entire federal court system in the US and either start all over from scratch or just abolish it entirely.
As for the role of the federal court system in the US? Yes, it does interpret and clarify the Constitution, but (and I would say actually more importantly), it does so by issuing determinations as to whether challenged pieces of legislation harmonize with the Constitution. Federal courts can't simply issue advisory opinions about the Constitution. They must have a "case or controversy" before them in order to act.
All in all, yes constitutional decisions, and therefore law, are a body of knowledge different from the Constitution itself, but they are also congruent. It's impossible to read one without the other. The Constitution provides a check to ensure that courts do not essentially rule by edict, while the courts ensure that laws and their enforcement (read: legislative and executive capacities) comply with the Constitution itself.
@Alexi
"The only fallacy is your willful misreading of the 10th amendment."
You can read the 10th amendment anyway you like, but the fact is that (unfortunately, in my opinion, and there I believe we agree) it is a dead letter in federal courts. 10th amendment arguments are routinely brushed off and have been for so long that it's rarely even used anymore.
How many legs does a dog have if a judge calls a tail a leg?
PeteKent says: "I can't be bothered to read posters who use vulgarities like calling the Tea Party Protesters 'tea baggers'."
Two posts prior, you started your post with: "Here's another dilemma for the Idiot in Chief"
Your names may be less "vulgar", but they have the same effect. Here's some left wing name calling for you: you are a filthy hypocrite. You want the moral high ground on name calling? Then stop peppering your insane right-wing rants with names derogatory to our commander in chief. Otherwise STFU.
Stan said...
How many legs does a dog have if a judge calls a tail a leg?
This is why it's important to get reasonable, sound of mind judges (with a mixture of backgrounds, please) rather than to install partisan hacks or complete loons on the bench. :)
It's clear you are not a constitutional scholar, or even an attorney because of your simplistic analysis of what is "constitutional".
Pragmatus: What you say is completely true, and you're correct that the right uses this idea to argue for social security privatization. But I am not sure if that's relevant to this analysis, and I'm certainly not using the analogy as part of a political campaign against social security.
It's certainly a unique form of "pension," but the term is commonly used to refer to old-age assistance programs (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(Australia)#Age_pension), and of course your benefits are calculated in proportion to your contributions. So I really don't think there's any misuse in terms to call social security a "pension."
Or, back to my original point, think about it another way. Yes, current workers are paying for current retirees. So draw up the "transaction" or "purchase" that way - you get a cash payment down the road in exchange for a payment in support of retirees today. It's still a purchase of sorts, and it's still perfectly constitutional. So I'd suggest the tax vs. forced purchase debate sets up a distinction without a difference.
Anyway, this kinda seems like semantics to me.
Dwight said I wonder if she figured out that Marg is a joke character?"
Despite being able to see the Yukon from her house, I suspect Sarah is not all that tuned in to Canadian humor.
This laughing-till-tears-run-down- your-cheeks howler remains one of my favorite moments from the last election.
"Not all that brilliant," the Canadian pranksters concluded. LOL...
On the other hand Sarah is a "strict constructionist" which means, natch, she is fully qualified to lead the free world.
@Commerce clause - healthcare in its current form is not interstate commerce, as it cannot be sold across state lines
@legality - as it stands the mandate wouldn't pass muster. States can mandate, since people can move to another state if they disagree. People can't freely move from the entire country. Not to mention, it could only be implemented (ala Social Security) if it is considered a tax. But of course they can't describe it as such today, or else people would be against it even more.
@teabag - I find it interesting that people who are usually up in arms about any other slur are happy to use this one against a group they dislike. It's no different than a black person calling another the N word, a homosexual calling another a bundle of sticks, etc.
@Auto Insurance - I hate constantly seeing this one - a) people have a choice in driving, and b) it's a state thing. If individual states were trying to implement health care, you wouldn't hear any constitution arguments.
Beavis said:
Seriously, what goes on in the heads of you retards?
Why can some people not have a discussion without making fun of retarded people?
If I called someone an "n" word, I would certainly hope commenters would be offended. But Beavis calls someone a "retard" and there is no mention of it. Man, I have a hard time with that.
Stan: What if we don't have a hard-and-fast definition of what a "leg" is? And what if Congress wants a tail to be a leg? Who has the power to tell them their wrong? Those are the problems with the way you're looking at it - a.) the meaning of these terms is not self-evident, and b.) you need to give some entity the authority to impose constitutional restrictions on Congress for the constitution to operate as any kind of meaningful limitation at all.
@Brendan
I was actually quoting another commenter in that line, but you are correct, SCOTUS ignores the 10th. Isn't problematic that the amendment which determines the basic structural limit on federal power is defunct?
@myself - read the Ruth Marcus article, and it looks like I'm wrong on the Commerce clause. It has been so warped and mangled that the government can claim virtually any activity is commerce now... *sigh*
@Social Security - you're right, it's not a pension - it's a ponzi scheme. There's no lockbox with my money paid in earning interest, some young working schlub is footing the bill.
@Stan
More importantly, if judges defined a tail as a leg, how would that impact a dog's life or the life of its owners? The judge cannot force the dog to walk on its tail.
Although I often disagree with SCOTUS opinions, it's amazing frankly how well a Court system that has no real check on its influence (beyond impeachment) generally constrains itself to a)decisions narrowly tailored to the case at hand, b) rejecting cases where it doesn't have jurisdiction, and c) relying heavily on the doctrine of stare decisis (which only exists so long as judges choose to abide by it).
Although I'm sure we can all think of high-profile cases where we believe that SCOTUS overstepped its bounds (Bush v. Gore comes to mind of course), those 99% of cases that we don't read about are generally decided within a pretty narrow framework.
Really the judiciary is a case where it's surprising that it works as well as it does.
@GROG
I too have a serious problem with that word usage. I noticed it in a different thread the other day, and it pissed me off enough that I was on the cusp of posting a reply. Thanks for bringing it up.
P.S. I had missed beavis' comment today.
I'm pretty sure that conservative righties tend to get the Constitution mixed up with the preamble of the Declaration of Independence, ie:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;
No doubt a stirring sentiment from Jefferson (well, from several places as Jefferson 'borrowed' a lot. Most notably from Locke, a popular philosopher of the time) that DOES mention God, rights, and freedom.
It also brings up that pesky 'all men created equal' thingy. So while slavery isn't addressed per se in the Constitution, it did seem to be on the minds of the founders. Unless, of course, they meant just white men. I think words to that effect were in the Commonwealth of Mass. Constitution which is how they outlawed slavery.
And I suppose all you women out there are SOL. Get back in the kitchen, wenches.
But if you want to extrapolate based on the DofI document there is that unalienable rights and pusuit of happiness clause. I'd put health care in that category.
Liberty and justice for all, amen.
Mr U... "pretty sure"?
You can be ENTIRELY sure!
Ryan F…
Yes, it is semantics—all law is the study of how words can be parsed, chopped up and syntax configured in different ways to yield different meanings.
If SS is really a pension, then there are laws in place protecting a pensioner’s funds in any such program. Among these are a prohibition on the forcing of contributions. The whole GOP scheme for destroying SS hinges upon this sequence—
♦ SS is recognized as a “pension plan”.
♦ All pensioners have the right, under federal law, to contribute as much or as little as they chose to their pension program.
♦ People who would never need the help of SS after they retire will stop adding their funds to the system.
♦ Without full funding from all working individuals, SS would disintegrate and collapse within five years.
No private pension is ever set up on a pay-as-you-go basis. Everybody who contributes to a private pension plan has a stake in that plan based solely and exactly on the amount of money he put into it or was added (by his employer) in his name. If you only contributed $500 to your pension plan over your working life then that’s all you’re going to get back, plus whatever interest has accumulated on it. SS was never designed to work that way. The first person to receive a monthly SS retirement check contributed only $24.75 toward SS her entire working life, yet received just short of $23,000 in retirement benefits.
The law is a business of words and the meaning of words. One of the most dangerous is “pension” if ever it is legally linked to Social Security.
Abraham Lincoln said: “If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.”
Calling SS a “pension plan” doesn’t make it a pension plan.
There it goes again, the stupid statement comparing gay marriage with incest and pedophilia. Tom Schaffer shame on you.
Anybody else notice that Pete Kent is becoming alarmingly unstable? I hope he doesn't go out and do something stupid.
ooops, video removed (Jeez, I wonder why?)
Here's some text...Friday, November 6, 2009
Boehner confuses Constitution with Declaration, and grievances within fouding document to current events
t a recent TEA Party protest in Washington DC, House Minority Leader John Boehner stood before a crowd of thousands. Encouraging him to stand against the proposed health care bill in the House (which is now endorsed by the AARP), he spoke of a great founding document, the U.S. Constitution. Holding his personal copy of the document in his hand, Boehner recited the Preamble to the crowd:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident," Boehner said, "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Without a doubt, many TEA Party protesters at the event felt a sense of pride in hearing those words....
@Universe
So while slavery isn't addressed per se in the Constitution,
Actually slaves, and therefore implicitly slavery, are mentioned in the Constitution and it was indeed very much at the forefront at the time. A number of the compromises, including those made in the Bill of Rights, were very much aimed at the slavery question.
@filistro
Oh, that's classic. Simply awesome. Too much time in the tanning bed.
Blogger Scott said...
"...it's not a pension - it's a ponzi scheme. There's no lockbox with my money paid in earning interest..."
Oy vey, must this crackpot claim surface in every debate about Social Security? It's not designed to earn interest, and the money you pay into FICA is not just "yours," it goes into the Social Security system.
While I agree with some posters here that FICA tax vs. fund is essentially a distinction without a difference, I think it's an important distinction to make because referring to it as a pension fund leads some of our less adept friends on the right to believe that Social Security should work like an IRA or 401(K) and become incensed when it does not. (Whether they, like our illustrious former President, believe that it SHOULD work like an IRA is irrelevant.) An intergenerational contract to secure the promise of retirement would be a better phrase.
This IRA-like description of SS leads some people to use the fallacious "Ponzi Scheme" analogy, as they either fail to understand SS or fail to understand Ponzi Schemes. For the record:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
A Ponzi scheme works by attracting willing investors, and using their money to pay INTEREST and DIVIDENDS to existing investors, and works only so long as new people remain willing to invest.
Social Security utilizes a tax (a tax by any other name is still a tax) on income to pay fixed benefits to retirees; no one who understands the system is expecting an enhanced return on a FICA "investment." Social Security would only even resemble a Ponzi Scheme in terms of payoff in a "Children of Men" scenario where one generation of Americans had no children.
So please, let's retire this overhyped canard about "Ponzi Schemes" and go back to debating the issue honestly.
According to John Lofton, the constituionality of Health Care Reform is only the second most important question. For Lofton, the most important question about Health care Reforms is “Is it Godly, which is to say does the program fit within the limits God has set for civil government (see, among other Scriptures, Romans, chapter 13.)” (http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=1526)
I’ll let others comment on that.
In another posting Lofton argues that federal government spending on education is unconstitutional. (http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=1273&PHPSESSID=5427c39c1789aee810263b5d87fd9a32)
So, let’s play along with the Lofton’s of the world… What else might be constitutional because it’s not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution? How about the Air Force! Consider the following passages in the enumerated powers of Article I section 8:
“To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;”
“To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;”
“To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;”
“To provide and maintain a Navy;”
“To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;”
Maybe the constitutional authority comes for the Air Force comes from the following source?
“The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.”
Mr Universe…
The idea of slavery was enshrined in the Constitution, but when it came time to use the actual word a lot of mincing was done instead. Slaves were defined as “individuals held to labor or servitude” as I recall.
The only Constitution that actually dared to give the offense its proper name was that of the Confederacy, whose founders saw no need for delicate wordplay regarding a feature of their culture they figured would be around forever.
@Jacob -- fair enough, but the point Nate actually made was a broader point about the "prescription or proscription" of public policies. In fact, the Constitution mandates/prohibits lots of extremely specific policies, not just vague ones like the power to regulate "commerce among the several states" or a right to "equal protection."
Tom, I mean.
Brendan-
The best example of the federal gov making you buy something is the Federal retirement health ands retirement insurance - better known as Medicare and Social Security.
Chicago Cliff,
Get real Today's Gallup poll: the health care bill has got only 35% support.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-11-24-healthcare-poll_N.htm
I defy you to find me a poll in the last month that has a majority supporting any of these bills. If those numbers don't move (and why would they) this thing isn't passing. It would be suicide.
Mr U... picturing Boehner lying in a tanning bed, wearing a Speedo and those tiny little girly goggles... it massively creeps me out.
It's just WRONG on so many levels (not unlike modern Republicanism)
Pragmatus - I'm not sure why we need to go out of our way not to use certain words because of how right-wing extremists may misinterpret and misuse them. We're having a general conversation here, not planning a political campaign. The right also appears to be using the concept that health care reform is a "forced purchase," so it cuts the other way as well.
Yes, law is about words. But it is also about concepts when language is open ended. An analysis of underlying economic substance is very commonly used to help interpret the law. Antitrust and tax law are two huge examples. You won't find too many antitrust cases that obsess over the language of the Sherman Act.
Moreover, I'm a little confused why you're so hung up on this. Employment-based pensions involve current contributions which finance current payouts to retirees as well; otherwise, it would be impossible for a pension to be underfunded. Regardless of how the money is husbanded, you pay in out of current earnings, you get an individual statement that records and reflects your contributions, and you get a pay out after you retire calculated on the basis of your contributions and this formula. It's defined contribution plans that are based on the principle of an individual account based strictly on individual contributions, not "pensions." I mean, yeah, obviously, social security doesn't work like an IRA. Not sure where that fits in here.
Finally, I think your confidence in your use of the term "pension" may be unwarranted. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pension -
"1\ˈpen(t)-shən\ : a fixed sum paid regularly to a person: a archaic : wage b : a gratuity granted (as by a government) as a favor or reward c : one paid under given conditions to a person following retirement from service or to surviving dependents."
It's probably time to move on here. There are irrelevant distinctions in law as in general speech, and, after all, we're talking about health care reform and the concepts governing its constitutionality, not the campaign to dismantle social security.
@A
Absolutely true. My point was that maybe the idea Tom intended was different than what he wrote, which is somewhat inconsistent in that clause. What he wrote would technically apply to almost everything in the Constitution beyond voting rights and the structure of the government.
@Jeff
That's why we don't live in a direct democracy. How popular would social security have been if Republicans had been able to spend six months screaming that it included death panels and a government takeover of private pensions for six months?
The items in the bill remain popular for what its worth. But your idea of a direct democracy where bills only pass if Congress' promotion campaign is better than the opponents' smear campaign would be a sad world indeed.
@filistro
I actually didn't have that imagery seared onto my neurons. But thanks for sharing. :-p
The US Constitution does not mention god, gods or any religion by name; it makes no inferences to any creator or deity. Nor does this language appear in any of the Amendments.
In fact, Article 6 Section 2 contains a specific prohibition against a religious test for high office, the first sentence of the 1st Amendment bars the establishment of any federally endorsed religion. As the receipt of government funds-which are issued by the Congress-is an endorsement, the very existence of 'Faith Based Programs' is unconstitutional. So too is the channeling of federal dollars to any religious organization or school.
The IRS specifically prohibits 501 (c) 3 organizations -including churches-from engaging in political speech.
This country's capitol is not located in Rome. It is not located in Salt Lake City, nor is it located in Jerusalem or Mecca. The capitol of the United States is on American soil, neutral ground as far as religions go. We are not a theocracy, and no religion has the right to determine how things are to be done.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto god what is god's. Unless you want the government to meddle in the affairs of your religious teachings, stay the fuck out of our government. Any kind of street between our White House and your church is a two-way street; and if you insist on enforcing your religion as if it were the law of our land, then we can pass laws restricting the legality of your cult, no matter how large.
Keep your damn paws off my Constitution, you pointy-headed freak.
As Jacob & a few others above have posted, these proponents of 'strict constructionists' = 'bible literalists' in almost every case.
This is not a coincidence imho...
of course, the zealot 'bible literalists' use their reading of their god's 'written word' to further their own causes WHEN CONVENIENT [as in slagging gays & women] - but somehow manage to avoid those areas that they do not find convenient [polygamy, cloven hoofs, loving thy neighbor...]
so hypocritical & self-serving... but they do run on a parellel track of 'self-righteous indignation' that their way is the only way now & forever [amen]
WV - fluffi [prep for a teabagging session] he/she gave me a fluffi...
Common Statler, you know damn well that God wrote the Constitution. It says so. "One nation, under God, etc."
Need proof? Article Eleventeen, Section Bat Shit says "Thou shalt not partake in communion if you support abortion"
Get a clue.
I wish pollsters would start adding a cost to any question they ask about new government programs, like:
1) Do you think govt should quarantee everyone "xxxx"
probably polls way better than
2)Do you think govt should quarantee everyone "xxxx"....if your taxes increase by "yyyy"
@ Jeff:
WINGER: Get real Today's Gallup poll: the health care bill has got only 35% support.... If those numbers don't move (and why would they) this thing isn't passing. It would be suicide.
RATIONAL PERSON: Then why are you all fighting it so hard? If it's so massively unpopular, why not just let the Dems pass it and commit "suicide?"
W: Because once this monstrosity is in place, we'll never get rid of it.
RP: Why not? Things get repealed all the time.
W: (darkly) Not this one.
RP: Why?
W: Because once this horror is in place the public will love it so much, they'll never give up any of it.
RP: (backs away slowly while maintaining eye contact...)
Damn you, Nate Silver. Damn you and your FACTS.
@brian
At least that'd help make the case for including a Public Option in this HCR bill. It is the fiscally responsible thing to do.
That along with winding down the 43rd's more expensive foray into outsourcing, Medicare Plus.
Bible literists? Dude, its called a contract, and its the way the civilized world ensures everyone understands the rules before agrreing to things. The Constitution is nothing more. The Contract with America is another. Liberals don't like them, cause they don't like living by rules.
Mr U!
You shock me sir. I can withstand criticism of my ignorance of article batshit, but how dare you call me common!
If by "fiscally rsponsible" you mean we spend 15% more than the outrageous amount we currently spend on HC, ok then.
Whats Medicare Plus?
Well, what's more fiscally responsible would be channeling the money from failing programs (such as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, faith-based organizations, and bank bailouts) to programs aimed at improving the life of Americans.
Universal Single Payer saves lives. War destroys them. If you really consider yourself to be pro-life, then you should be pro-peace and pro-healthcare.
I find nothing more ironic than the gap in the logic of the pro-lifer. You'll protect the life of an unborn fetus, and yet as soon as they get out of the womb, you'll do everything you can to kill it, through slashing social programs such as school lunch programs and adequate school funding, to your insasne support for the death penalty and ardent deisre to feed the military-industrial complex so it can blow up the homes of poor people half a world away.
We live in an age where the bloodthirsty call themselves pro-life, where missiles are called Peacekeepers, where our schools are in decay because of a program too Leave No Child Behind. It is considered acceptable to be both pro-life and anti-health.
You remind me of Lady Macbeth, feverishly washing her hands even though she can't get the blood off.
The Constitution is nothing more.
It's the only "contract" that specifically mandates the permanent creation of a body to interpret what is said in the contract.
IOW, it's a contract that explicitly states it's open to interpretation, and who is to interpret it.
"Understands the rules before agreeing" is a red herring, this contract doesn't allow for the possibility that anyone can absolutely understand the rules.
If by "fiscally rsponsible" you mean we spend 15% more than the outrageous amount we currently spend on HC, ok then.
You are very confused. The Public Option portion is NOT related to extra costs. It actually saves money because...
Whats Medicare Plus
It's called Medicare Advantage now (Part C/+Choice was the old name, and was usually refered to is "Plus"). That is where the government pays an extra 12%, or more, for a private company to be the underwriter to do the job that the government actually does a better job of.
I think someone already said this, but just to reiterate the point, separation of church and state is explicitly prohibited in the constitution. How people get off claiming this provision is omitted is beyond me. The establishment clause of the First Amendment makes it very clear the affairs of state shall not be intertwined with those of any religious institution.
separation of church and state is explicitly prohibited in the constitution.
Really? (I think you may have misworded that.)
Please liberals, quit pushing that "public option" saves money. Noone over age 12 believes it. We understand government subsidizing things that can't be sustained privately. Heck, we've seen the bailouts. Boy, that saved tons.
Medicare Advtage also gives better benefits. So cutting it reduces senior benefits. And it was passed during Clinton. Either way, cut it and just book the savings as saving Medicare---don't use it to spend more.
One word about Bibilcal literalism. There are different flavours of this. Bibilcal literalism proper is supposed to acknowledge the existance of literary devices being used and take the context of the whole into consideration.
The flavour that garners the worst reputation is the one that does a very poor job taking into context, all too often relying on some favoured modern translation (usually King James Version), and is tone-deaf to literary devices.
But Biblical literalism really starts losing meaning in relation to it's name and initial intent when it starts to butt up against facts of our physical world that are now widely known and accepted. To accept this evidence and still hold a "literal word of G-d" stance these large sections of the Bible must be treated as a "literary device" that is not obvious in any sense just from reading the text. Thus the growing chasm between people's opinions on what Biblical literalism means.
Perhaps this is not unlike what has happened with the Constitution. Small wonder that someone looks back on a 200 year-old document (even including the later Bill of Rights) and wonders how we got to where we are. There is 200 years of understanding and thought, in judicial considerations as well as discovery and changes in facts about the physical world and ourselves, that has passed since that document was penned.
Please liberals, quit pushing that "public option" saves money.
Please conservatives, explain to us how it is that a new self-sustained start up in a previously existing industry doesn't cut consumer costs through competition.
If you're willing to concede that capitalism doesn't work, then I'll concede that a robust public option can't work either.
BRIAN
are you being a 'satirist' above ?
WTF - 'Bible literists' ???
takes on a whole other meaning of cluelessness imho
OTOH, it would explain alot about how illogical & irrational your train of thought tends to run off the track...
as for contracts in general, you are also not rational.
any contract can be ammended and/or cancelled at any time assuming the parties involved make a mutual agreement to do so
in this case, the continental congress created several mechanisms including the legislature as well as a court system to update, ammend & interpret the constitution that they generally 'outlined'
it is a living, breathing document - not a dead sea scroll...
and the framers were NOT in unanimous agreement about the constitution remember - it barely was enacted way back in the day [with many political compromises that they intentionally left to be addressed at a later date]
now for you biblical literalists - well how do you even account for the fact that your written 'word' was in ancient languages written hundreds on years AFTERWARDS by humans with their own failings in which each word can & is translated differently & open to numerous interpretations
or was the King James/english 'version' somehow divinely transcribed ???
illogical & irrational & self-serving
The Constitution specifically states that Federal court decisions are part of the supreme law of the land, and, by reference in the Seventh Amendment, incorporates the common-law system. Common law is judge-made law. Anyone who states that judges are supposed to interpret the law and not make it is either a liar or an ignoramous (and, if they support the efforts of conservative judges to make law, they're hypocrites to boot). Period.
@brian, "Please liberals, quit pushing that "public option" saves money." -- apparently the CBO is full of employees under age 12? The public option plan will save money and will be self-funding. Subsidizing of poorer individuals is part of the broader health reform plan and not the public option (would be paid to insurance companies if no public option). That will be paid for in different ways (taxes, etc). But, the public option will save more money because it mean the subsidies are smaller.
"Medicare Advtage also gives better benefits....passed during Clinton." -- not true Part C was passed during Clinton under Medicare+Choice. It was in 2003 when it was changed to vastly overpay the insurance industry along with the drug companies. It became the "welfare for insurance companies plan" under Bush.
brian said...
Please liberals, quit pushing that "public option" saves money. Noone over age 12 believes it. We understand government subsidizing things that can't be sustained privately.
Again, you are confusing things. I guess you would get you ass kicked by a 5th Grader (age 12)? :)
It is matter of inhouse versus outsourcing. Risk mitigation by collective pooling of resources, not to mention large scale program administration, is a core competency of government (the former is pretty close to the definition of government). Outsourcing a core competency? That seems like a good idea to you?
Heck, we've seen the bailouts. Boy, that saved tons.
Different subject....but by that point, sadly yes. Best option in a bad situtation. :/
Unfortunately your second and third observations contradict each other. Sex with minors and incest are both constitutionally permissible but neither are constitutionally protected hence the large number of statutory rules against them. However, in theory there's no reason to think that a law legalising them would be unconstitutional. Misguided, immoral and hugely unpopular but not actually unconstitutional.
The true concern of the constitutionality of the HCR bill is not "Where in the Constitution, sir, do you see it authorized that Congress can be involved with "health care," or fund "health care"?"
The constitutionality concern lies in the mandate. A "tax" that falls exclusively on anyone who is uninsured is a penalty beyond Congress' authority. A tax that is a penalty for failing to comply with requirements otherwise beyond Congress's constitutional power will present the question whether there are any limits on Congress's power to regulate individual Americans. The Supreme Court has never accepted such a proposition.
The mandate, of course, is purely political and essential to win insurance industry support.
@GROG, why do you say that?? Property tax, gas tax, payroll tax, etc are all taxes imposed on people for something they do or not do. You are mandated to send your children to a government sanction school. You are mandated to get a social security number by age 1. Levying a fine via your taxes has never been shown to be in violation of the constitution.
Re Medicare ADV--the govt has to periodically pay more to make things attractive to private insurers. Either way, 12% more to 25% of Medicare members is hardly a budget buster. Really, it was a small way to privatize Medicare--which is why its the first (and only) thing libs want to cut.
GM---another great "public option". Public option=we'll go broke if not for taxpayers.
GROG said...
The mandate, of course, is purely political and essential to win insurance industry support.
I agreed with that partially. It also has the practical benefit of helping address the problem of uninsured folks rolling up to the ER.
However why does the insurace industry require winning over? Surely you could find 50, probably even 60 Senators, and 220 House Reps that aren't so in the pocket of the insurance industry that they are free to vote for this?
That's one truely insidious thing about the GOP going off to pout in coordinated unison of "No." The royal f*cking of the country as a whole.
brian said...
Re Medicare ADV--the govt has to periodically pay more to make things attractive to private insurers. Either way, 12% more to 25% of Medicare members is hardly a budget buster. Really, it was a small way to privatize Medicare--which is why its the first (and only) thing libs want to cut.
"Budget buster" or not, it is significantly MORE.
P.S.
GM---another great "public option". Public option=we'll go broke if not for taxpayers.
It is really sad this is how you actually conceptualize the world. You just got done saying that privatization is the option that costs more (so the "libs" are against it!)....then you toss in this non-sequiter? GM has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Public Option in the HCR bill ... outside of some wierd twisted linkage in your head.
@brian, you must be in sales: it only costs 12% more, so that is a justification for privatizing Medicare. So, in answer to the question of why privatize it, it is not because it will save money but because it will only cost 12% more???
See Brian, most people try to sell the advantage of privatizing something as being that it will be cheaper or offer more and better services for the same price. But, costing 12% more (which is a lot) and getting very little benefit is actually a bad thing. If you think 12% increase is not a lot, please pay an additional 12% of your income to the government (they could use the money) for the same services. Many leave due to trouble getting any care much less the supposed advantages, you also then need to ask for an audit to truly appreciate the value for your extra 12% paid to the IRS.
Yes, the Constitution like any contract, can be interpreted many ways. The spirit of it was to recongnize the soveirnty of states governing their people, with a Fed stepping in to establish areas on which all should agree.
Why can't libs just create a liberal paradise in a state like Mass or NY. Instead they want to nationalize liberalism and complain of people trying to stop them. Its called dissent and its what happens when you try to force things on people. This is why the spirit of the Constitution is against a Fed that micromanages.
@brian, your spin is so overblown that I am sure you are getting quite dizzy.
First of all, the founders were divided over States rights vs. Federalism, and came up with a compromise. All areas of general welfare were open to the Federal government, leaving the rest to the States. The determination of what should be controlled by the Federal government vs. States has changed over the years, even shortly after the constitution was signed. Even the issue of a military evolved.
But, it is interesting how you suggest this is a "liberal" problem. I would say the conservatives have tried to impose far more nationally, including making many things illegal (e.g. abortion), interceding in our privacy (e.g. the 'Patriot' act), enforcing their religion (e.g. DOMA), and so on and so on. Those are only the ones that they got through - the number of areas that conservatives have tried to micromanage at the federal level is truly astounding; thankfully cooler heads prevailed (whether the Supreme court or congress).
Paul-
Then just cut it already! I'm sure Medicare has tons of waste. Lets see if those savings take, then start spending.
Course, libs are all focused on the one small area that allowed privatization--oh we gotta kill that.
@PaulK:
@GROG, why do you say that?? Property tax, gas tax, payroll tax, etc are all taxes imposed on people for something they do or not do.
Because a tax for not having insurance is regulating behavior. People have a choice whether or not to drive or how much to drive, to own property or how much property to own, etc. If you don't want to pay property taxes, don't own property.
I think there are concerns about being punished for NOT doing something.
brian,
The "spirit" of the constitution is as open to interpretation as the constitution itself.
With regard to nationalizing liberalism, I'll just quote FDR, "These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. These economic royalists are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred."
By paying property tax or gas taxes, you are (in theory) paying for something you are using. Property taxes help pay for infrastructure, etc. Gas taxes help build roads and bridges. Those are acceptable taxes.
But I think there are concerns with a penalty tax on individuals strictly because a behavior when there is no benefit for that indiviual.
Paul-
Lets see, which side used the courts to overule states soverignty on abortion? Same side thats used courts to overule popular opinion on gay marriage. The same side that advocates "nuclear options" to ram thru HC which is not popular. Screw the people!
I assume DOMA was put in to protect states from having to adopt other states gaymarriage laws. I support states deciding whatever on gay marriage.
Re Patriot Act---national defense is one area I can support micromanaging.
GROG, direct tax by the federal government is explicitly allowed under the Constitution [provided they are " in proportion to the census or enumeration", roughly meaning the same in every state].
In effect this tax is to pay for the medical costs incurred because of people becoming injured or sick while not insured.
FDR..... what a true economic illeterate. The guy who wanted to stack the SuprCt carping about power. Ha!
You guys do realize regulation always favors big business? All the little guys go bust and big business gets to jack up prices and clean up.
@ the people who object to the term "teabagger" (which was, by the way, coined in this usage by teabaggers) -
We could call you douchebaggers, if you'd prefer.
Just a helpful suggestion.
Ryan F…
Not sure how you arrived at the value judgment that I was “hung up” about the use of words.
Whatever Websters says about a particular word is meaningless in terms of what the law says. Pensions are regulated and defined by rigorous laws in this country, thanks to previous eras when such programs were widely abused and the abusers excused from culpability.
The attachment of the term “pension plan” to SS in any US court ruling would have dire consequences for it—that’s why the GOP makes such a big deal of poo-pooing such distinctions. Their arguments are exactly like yours: “Go look in the dictionary. You have nothing to be afraid of by attaching this completely harmless term to SS.” In a pension plan a contributor has a specific amount invested that is controlled by him. Therefore he can put it into an IRA, invest it in the stock market, stop contributing—whatever. To allow this sort of user-control over SS would mean converting the entire system to something it isn’t, which is a retirement plan with accounts containing the individual’s contributions. SS is pay-as-you-go. Nobody has an individual account holding his personal funds. The money that comes in the door this afternoon from your paycheck goes out to pensioners the following morning.
This is the means by which a bad plan gets a toehold inside the door, in much the same way that the Aztec emperor Moctezuma granted seemingly innocuous concessions to the Spaniards who appeared at his door, only to find himself dethroned and enslaved within weeks.
More than a bit snarky about the Tea Partiers, aren't we...?
We need the Supreme Court to decide whether torture is Unconstutional...LOL...
I do believe the bitch about the courts is that they are attempting to remake society, in the above case war itself from the bench.
Enjoy being bankrupt and the civil war the govt, and snarky academic types like yourself are starting. Enjoying my tax money, you geeba?
Happy choke on the Turkey Day.
brian,
There's clearly no point in debating with someone so blind to reality and history. I implore you to get educated. I eagerly await your next moronic quip, just don't expect a response.
@filistro said...
Mr U... "pretty sure"?
You can be ENTIRELY sure!
Wow, Boehner pulled a boner.
brian…
If you’re going to assert that someone lacks education, it doesn’t serve your argument very well to spell the word illiterate “illeterate”.
The health care reform proposals do not require anyone to buy anything, so the people who think that is unconstitutional should stop complaining.
The proposals (and remember, it's not law yet) give you the option of buying insurance or paying a fee (which you can call a tax if you want) which will go toward the expenses of people like you when you do need health care.
Since you have a choice, there is no force or compulsion. You're free to take either course.
So comparisons to auto insurance are unnecessary, since mandatory auto insurance does not provide an opt-out provision as the health care proposals do.
John Boehner’s laughable idiocy…
The GOP’s understanding of the Constitution begins at the words “When in the course of human events…” and ends at John Hancock’s gigantic signature.
:o) :o) :o)
@Jacob fair enough, it's possible Tom really meant what you were saying, though I don't think that's the best interpretation. Either way, I am not impressed by his efforts to play Constitutional scholar. Would a marriage between a 14 year-old and his uncle really be unconstitutional? Illegal, sure, but unconstitutional?
brian said...
All the little guys go bust and big business gets to jack up prices and clean up.
That's the rub about a Public Option, at least one that isn't quite as hobbled in availability as it is in it's current form. It's a way to leverage the market forces to keep [the currently collectively badly misbehaving] insurance companies in line without trying to directly regulate them into good behavior.
Even with the hobbled one it is likely to be enough of an indirect threat, insurance companies will worry that if the difference is too great that voters will want access, that it will urge them to keep their banditry to a dull roar.
Tom Schaller: Not to detract from the overall thrust of your article, but:
The second congress passed the Militia Act of 1792, indicating what "militia" meant at the time. White free able-bodied citizens 18-45. Not unlike voting rights at the time.
So gun ownership is a conditional right, yes. And the condition is that you are, if I may translate loosely, a responsible member of society.
Tea partiers are nuts, but it doesn't follow that everything they believe is nuts. A stopped clock is right twice a day, etc.
Prag--
I don't claim to proofread my posts well.
Your definition of pension plan is off. A DC plan allows indiv control--DB plans do not. Alot of companies have DB plan--only they have assets set aside to pay benefits. SS has no assets, but you seem to find this OK. Why do you trust govt but not employers?
"Pay-go" is essentialy like a Ponzi scheme. "last one out" is the loser.
@brian
SS has no assets,
Incorrect, by approximately $2.5 trillion.
Hrmm, my last post isn't appearing? Anyway, to repeat, you are incorrect Brian. SS does have assets, currently approximately $2.5 trillion.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/assets.html
Now these are largely US government securities, so we do need to work on curbing the yearly deficit to make sure that by the time SS needs to draw on it's reserves it'll be able to cash in those securities. But other than that, yes, it actually does have reserves.
@brian
Why do you trust govt but not employers?
Because the interests of employers are., quite simply, to make a profit, and the needs and welfare of the employees is irrelevant to that goal. And we have quite a lot of evidence of what employers do when they are not regulated, and it isn't pretty.
In contrast, the government in a democracy is, by definition, answerable to the people, and if we don't like what they're doing, we can throw the bums out - as we did last November when the American people overwhelmingly rejected conservativism and the Republican party.
So I have to ask you - Why do you hate America? I mean that seriously - I truly and honestly want an answer. If you object so strongly to the way our democratic institutions work, why do you stay here? And why is it that you so detest the American form of government?
Right Dwight, sorry. I meant its not fully funded. The liabilities are like $10T+, so its 25% funded. Any private pension would be in serious trouble with those numbers. Same goes for Medicare.
I would like to propose a series of state level ballot initiatives that woudl ask the voters if they want Mormonism and Catholicism to be considered religions (thereby receiving benefits such as tax exemption), or mere cults.
Since you do not object to individual states deciding whether gay people should have civil rights, let,s do the same thing for religion. There's nothing in the Constitution that bars such initiatives. So let's get started.
Your "profit" motive is irrelevant to SS. Companies are also answerable to employees. The diiference is SS/Pensions are long term promises--and BOTH govt and employers tend to say screw the long term, worry about today. This is why common practice is to ensure funding. But, SS is exempt.
A better response is everyone knows the govt can just print money if they can't pay.
Hate America? Your boy Obama goes around the world apologizing for us, and I hate it? I thought debating issues was American? Maybe I should just bomb things like Ayers? He's a good American,
@brian
The liabilities are like $10T+, so its 25% funded. Any private pension would be in serious trouble with those numbers.
Whew. Good thing Social Security is not a pension, isn't it?
@brian
Your "profit" motive is irrelevant to SS. Companies are also answerable to employees. The diiference is SS/Pensions are long term promises--and BOTH govt and employers tend to say screw the long term, worry about today. This is why common practice is to ensure funding. But, SS is exempt.
Actually, you're completely wrong on this. Social Security was revamped in the 1970's and 80's to cover the upcoming retirement of the Baby Boomers 30 or 40 years later. The Soc Sec trustees think in terms of generations. You are as wrong here as you can be.
Hate America? Your boy Obama goes around the world apologizing for us, and I hate it?
Yes, you do. You object every time our representative government tries to do something to improve the well-being of our nation.
One example of your behavior is exactly what you are objecting to here - mischaracterising our President's very successful re-structuring of foreign policy after the disasterous Bush years as going "around the world apologizing". He has improved out standing in the world immensely - and you hold his achievements in contempt. America does better, and you denigrate the accomplishment.
So I ask again - Why do you hate America? You didn't answer me before.
I’m with Statler. If civil rights for people like me are up to the voters, why not the definition of religion? I’d love to see how the Mormons would fare in any such election outside Utah.
Bravo Shrinkers.
Your boy Obama goes around the world apologizing for us, and I hate it?
I believe he is largely apologizing for the poor behavior of the last asshat, and his infamous candree, that lived at his current residence. :P
I’d love to see how the Mormons would fare in any such election outside Utah.
Given how much they have to spend on keeping gays as second class citizens in other states, I think it's pretty likely that they have enough pocket change to invest in preventing the same treatement for their kind in other states.
But that's no reason not to drain a little more out of their coffers.
Setting aside whether he was an asshat--do you go around apologizing for other people? Like, do you get a new job and tell everyone for months how much the last guy sucked? Seem juvenile to me.
@brian
Setting aside whether he was an asshat--do you go around apologizing for other people? Like, do you get a new job and tell everyone for months how much the last guy sucked? Seem juvenile to me.
See, there you go again - simply dismissing President Obama's impressive achievement as "apologizing for other people" and "juvenile". I bet you aren't even aware of what immense positive changes this administration has already produced in our relationships with both friendly and unfriendly nations.
Acknowledging that we are on a new course, and that the course we had been on was destructive, is simply an honest and useful admission that the world needed to hear. But your implication that this is the sum of what Obama has done is, again, nothing short of a blind denigration of the really substantive changes that have already happened under this new and vibrant administration.
You still haven't answered me, and I honestly want to know - Why do you hate America?
Robert,
It would also put them on defense rather than offense. Once TV ads detailing what it is exactly that Mormons believe (such as the alien planet God lives on, baptizing the dead, magic underwear, the multiple underage girls their founder raped...e rr, I meant married. All we have to do is display a few quotes from Brigham Young talking about Blood Atonement and the need to declare war on the American government the next time BYU has a football game, and I guarantee you people all over the US will give them a good reason to become concerned for their own civil rights, rather than messing around with the civil rights of others.
Just put a picture of Rulon and Warren Jeffs on a few billboards, and urge people to find out what they're famous for.
As for the Catholics, there is enough anti-Catholic sentiment in the US already, lying just beneath the surface. If you want a political wedge to divide the Right, just tap into the numerous anti-Catholic opinions expressed by Pentecostals over the years. Hate is easy to dismiss, unless it's a Billy Graham quote.
@GROG, there are many taxes you have no control over and most relate to things you have little control over. You cannot choose to not buy anything, so you have to pay sales taxes and excise taxes (indirectly). You cannot really choose not to work, so you pay income and payroll taxes. There are many things your government makes you do; not doing many results in prison time or fines and fees. In this case, not buying insurance is one new example. But, like Motorcycle helmet laws and seat belt laws, you are made to do this to protect the interests of the larger society. If you have no insurance, you will be a drain on society since if you get sick, you will expect to get treated anyway. Perhaps they need to have a bond scheme like some States do for car insurance: you put enough money in a locked account to cover future health costs (or transportation out of the US) and you can do without insurance.
@brian, that is nonsense. Both sides use the courts to stop laws they do not like. Right now, that is very popular with the right wing since the Supreme court is stocked with very activist judges that pretend to be strict constructionists and treat it like tea leaves - they see whatever they want to see in the constitution (e.g. Scalia).
Popular opinion on gay marriage is actually very divided; election outcomes have a lot to do with factors other than opinions. When you tell a poorly educated voter that legal gay marriage means "they have to 'teach' homosexuality in schools", they will vote against it, even though that is a lie. If you tell them that it will force all churches to perform ceremonies for gays, they will vote against it, even though that is a lie. DOMA was enacted to score points with the rabid right by throwing "red meat" to them.
Patriot act is about invasion of privacy by the very government you trust so little. They can spy on you and your normal rights are tossed. That is only about national defense in the way that Iran jailing and executing the opposition is about their national defense.
This is one area of the right that is so disturbing, they want the government heavily intruding in our lives and enforcing their morals. They just do not want it helping others less fortunate.
@PaulK
I object every time a bomber or an aircraft carrier is bought in my name. I'm tired of being forced to buy things by the federal government, being taxed and then fined or threatened with prison if I object.
Too bad we live in a democracy, where sometimes things happen that we don't all agree with.
< /sarcasm >
Seriously, people who object to our form of government should consider the alternatives.
@Pragmatus, the pensions of the 1930s did not have many protections. Social security was setup in the mold of a pension plan at that time, but unlike the company plan, was backed by the full faith and credit if the US. Pension laws have advanced over the years, including more protection of the money, but it is not like an IRA or 401K. Those plans were setup to allow you to invest your own money and get back only what you put in. Traditional pension plans may pay far more than an individual put in (if they live long) or far less (if they die quickly). The normal pension plan worked on a pro-rata basis, somewhat like SS. If you paid in for 15 years (say) you got the full amount (proportion of your salary or whatever) per month for life. If you paid in for 5 years, you maybe only got 1/3 per month for life.
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