One vote that occurred this election day did not pit Democrats and Republicans against one another in an effort to win seats or change policy. Instead, it was a widely bi-partisan effort, meant to show solidarity with a U.S. ally. In a vote under suspended rules (requiring 2/3 majority) the U.S. House of Representatives voted Tuesday in favor of a resolution that called on "the President and the Secretary of State to oppose unequivocally any endorsement or further consideration" of the UN-endorsed Goldstone Report which investigated whether violations of human rights law were committed by Israel and Hamas during the Israeli assault on Gaza a year ago.
Regardless of the merits of the report or the resolution, the 344-36 final vote with 22 voting present (30 not voting) signified widespread support in both parties for the House's rejection of the document.In the House Committee on Foreign Relations, from which the bill originated, there was an almost identical vote share in favor (on the final bill), though the "not voting" contingent was a higher percentage and included key members. Committee Vice-Chair Gary Ackerman, who is also the Chair of the Sub-committee on the Middle East affairs and Donald Payne, Chair of the Sub-committee on Africa and Global Health, both chose not to vote on the bill. On the Republican side of the committee, only Ron Paul voted against.
For all of its bluster and bi-partisanship, the non-binding resolution does not have a direct practical impact on either the consideration of the Goldstone report at the UN General Assembly or Security Council, or the Obama Administration's overall strategy in Israel-Palestine. Indeed, like many other resolutions that express the "sense of the House," the legal and policy implications are tenuous at best.
The role of the legislative branch in the development of foreign policy is constantly changing, based in part on the interest and timeliness of the Congress and in part of the relevance of Congress' main tools to issues at hand. The political aspect plays a major role as well, with members of Congress eager to vote on resolutions that bolster their standing in their home districts, without bearing the brunt of responsibility for the impacts.
For making a serious impact, however, veteran congress-people identify a few key tools that the legislative branch has to adjust the foreign policy priorities and actions by the executive. The last two, treaties and appointment holds, are restricted to the Senate.
1. Power of the purse: On large scale initiatives, such as the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the use and deployment of weapons systems, troops or warships, Congress can delay, deny or put guidelines using appropriations measures. The most recent major example was a slew of amendments and bills with regard to the Iraq war, which was largely unsuccessful at actually changing US activities in the country. This strategy requires constant pressure on the President by Congress as well as strict spending guidelines, and therefore requires a great deal of political capital and commitment.
2. War powers: Congress has the power to "declare war," and "call forth the militia," though in modern practice, this authority is rather unclear. In conventional activities of the US military against another country, such as the 1991 Gulf War and the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, Congress' purview of the main operation was clear. However, for many military activities of the US abroad, conventional war authorization is not particularly relevant. For example, after September 11th, Congress passed a resolution authorizing the " Use of Military Force Against Terrorists," which has been interpreted in quite broad terms.
3. Individual lobbying: Congress(wo)men and Senators, particularly those on the Foreign Relations committees, are able to travel around the globe and bring back to the President pet causes, whether localized (hunger in a rural developing country) or more broad (e.g. human rights violations against the Tibetans).
4. Senatorial holds on Presidential appointments: In the Senate, preventing executive appointments to sensitive positions, such as a senior staff to key departments or ambassadors abroad, can be used for leverage.
5. Senate's treaty powers: The U.S. Constitution requires that all treaties be approved by the Senate by 2/3 majority before they become law. Ignoring that the legal question of what qualifies as a "treaty" has had a long and circuitous history, the fact is that many agreements negotiated with foreign governments include consultation with the Senate, whether an official vote is held or not.
Since the President often plays the dominant initiating role on most foreign policy issues, he or she therefore holds the majority of political responsibility (read: risk) for the success or failure of the initiatives. As the leading edge, the executive has to deal with the nuances of diplomacy and foreign engagement, while in the background, Congress can deal in more black and white absolutes that are more linked to politics than policy. For example, the debate over restricting funding for the Iraq war in the 110th Congress (2006-2007) was framed in terms of withdrawal or surge, with little gradation in between.
As a result, there is often little risk for Congress to pass aggressive yet myopic policy resolutions or amendments, even in cases where the impact on U.S. actions is real. But when the time comes for re-election, there is adequate ammunition for touting strong commitment to ideals, defense and allies.
In the case of the Goldstone report, it is possible that the actual contents of the report did not matter much to most voting members. Except for the relative few who are closely engaged on the Goldstone report itself, for example Minnesota Democrat Keith Ellison, the roll call was merely a "Pro-Israel or not" vote, supported by both the Democratic and Republican leadership as a point of bipartisan cooperation. In fact, apparently the initial mark-up of the bill had a number of factual errors in it, such as characterizing the Goldstone mission as investigating only the Israeli conduct in the operation rather than both Israel and Hamas, which were only corrected after the author wrote a letter to the bill's sponsors.
Given that the House's effort on this is largely symbolic, using none of the tools discussed above, it is clear that the resolution is largely rhetorical. But the question remains about what kind of action the current Congress would take if they were intent on solidly changing the Obama administration's approach on something broader, such as the Iran negotiations or the Afghanistan conflict. Would they follow a similar path as was taken in 2006 and 2007, which failed to change the Bush administration's conduct of the Iraq war? Or would a different track be taken, perhaps threatening to reduce or change the 2001 anti-terrorism war resolution or more informal techniques such as Senatorial blockage?
Nonetheless, with many incumbents looking vulnerable going into the 2010 midterms, it could be that Congress does not really want to engage in foreign policy making in the short term, instead focusing on the soft-edge political votes like the one from Tuesday. For a case like Afghanistan or Iran, there may be simply too much risk for little reward, particularly in a political environment where domestic issues continue to dominate.
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Renard Sexton is FiveThirtyEight's international columnist and is based in Geneva, Switzerland. He can be contacted at sexton538@gmail.com
11.05.2009
Congressional Foreign Politics
by Renard Sexton @ 7:00 AM...see also foreign policy, international
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82 comments
Zzzzz....zzzz....zzzz....
big surprise there, that we wouldn't support a resolution to identify war crimes in aggressive military actions of allies. We'd have to drink from the same poisoned chalice if we did regardless. Makes me like Ron Paul more that he voted against this amoral solidarity.
Very informative on the ways Congress can affect foreign policy - or fail to affect it.
Even with the tools at hand, Congress frequently merely waives its arms.
I'd wager a statistical analysis would show that the more useless and symbolic a vote is (such as the Goldstone vote), the more unanimity there is on it. Votes that do nothing but make representatives look good will have lots of people signing on. Votes that might actually affect something would be more controversial.
It might also be interesting to see how many of these meaningless, symbolic votes are authored by each major party, followed perhaps by an examination of the ways they tend to be used in the political propaganda of the following election cycle.
By the way, Keith Ellison is my representative, and I'm very proud of him.
This may be the policy arena with the most limited "check and balance." Congress (and SCOTUS) in the end can do very little when it comes to the President's decisions abroad.
There is a great book (if you shade to the quant side of the social sciences) called "While Dangers Gather." Does a very nice analysis of the restraints (or lack thereof) on the President. By Jon Pevehouse/Will Howell.
@shrinkers
Ditto.
Why is it that any criticism of Israeli policy is taken as an unfair attack on the existence of the State? Actual unfair attacks are ignored by most of the world, and yet no one can pressure Israel to be accountable for their actions. This is continually infuriating for those of us on the Jewish left.
Go Keith!
Also Renard, any way you could link to the roll call?
I don't care if it's "pro" or "anti" Israel - I don't see how you can vote against human rights. Seriously, they're voting against investigating human rights violations. That's inexcusable.
An alternate theory is that the majority recognized that this report is a fairly transparent unfair one-sided slam against Israel and voted accordingly
Here's the roll call. I checked it out this morning and was interested to see that 1 of the 3 R's voting Nay was Charles Boustany, the Louisiana cardiothoracic surgeon/ congressman who delivered the rebuttal to Obama's big healthcare reform speech. I even went to his website but could find no press release as to why he'd voted the way he did (Davis, the other R besides Ron Paul, has a statement.) Boustany seems to be a member of J Street, so maybe that has something to do with it?
WV: chesses - what Gollum likes to play on Sunday afternoons
Being an Israeli, I'm really sick and tired of those automatic "pro-Israel" votes. Nothing can be more anti-Israel, anti-democracy and anti-human rights that that.
I bet none of these members of Congress even bothered to read the abstract of the report itself.
Actually, the report is excellent, well-researched, and does not neglect to point out the poisonous effects of human rights violations against Palestinians in Gaza on what remains of the freedom of speech inside Israel itself.
[@Sweet - and have *you* read the report? You can find the full text online: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf. Also look up the committee's webpage at: http://www.goldstonereport.org/. If you read it, and if you're at all familiar with the facts of the conflict, as opposed to official Israeli propaganda, or official Hamas propaganda for that matter, you'll see that it is quite balanced; even too balanced at times].
Well kudos not just to Ellison(MN-5), but also to my former Rep Tammy Baldwin (WI-2). Good for the progressive Midwest!
Also kudos to Bob Filner (CA-53), the one Jewish Rep who didn't put up with this chicanery.
@stranded in al
Interesting point about J Street. Do you know which other Reps or Senators are members? They have been a monumental help to the left-wing peacenik Zionist movement in Washington.
People interested in advancing the pro-Israel pro-Palestine pro-Peace agenda can join J Street here:
http://www.jstreet.org/signup
WV: relib--how Democrats relive the 06-08 wave
Jacob: Huge fan of J Street :) As a peace-loving young Jewish American, I'm hopeful that they're the future of American Zionist politics... but I'm not holding my breath yet.
I think the funniest part of this is that any attempt to attack someone's "no" or "absent" vote on this could instantly be turned on the attacker by equivalently attacking them for rejecting investigations into human rights violations by "known terrorist group Hamas", or however to best phrase that to score political points in a given district. It's just dumb.
The Goldstone report is a sham and mocks the term human rights.
The UNHRC is even worse. Why on Earth are Saudi Arabia and China, among others on the HUMAN RIGHTS Council?
Yet people accept its legitimacy.
The report completely fails to look into Hamas's war crimes. The extensive use of human shields, refusal to allow civilians to evacuate, among other things.
Why is there always a resolution against Israel? But never one against any other country? No one complained about Sri Lanka's (effective, but) brutal counter-insurgency efforts.
It is clearly an anti-Semitic policy. If Israel was any other group, not a soul would care what went on there. But because it is the homeland of the Jews, it suddenly is scrutinized to an obscene extent. Those dirty Jews must be attacked on all fronts.
People who say they are just anti-Israel come from the same cloth as those who say Obama is a Muslim but that they are not racist.
@ juvanya
Read the Goldstone Report. Most of what you say is indeed true, and by and large anti-Israeli attitudes are rooted in anti-Semitism.
But this report is not. Israel is not the worst nation in terms of human rights, but its government has committed numerous violations that need to be addressed, including the targeting of civilians in Gaza.
When people brush off legitimate criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism, it just feeds the Jew-hating fringes who cloak their bigotry in opposition to Israel by giving them legitimate complaints.
As a peace-loving Zionist, it enrages me that neocons in this day and age can use anti-Semitism as a smokescreen to cover legitimate abuses of the Israeli government.
The vote on the Goldstone resolution is indicative of the complete moral bankruptcy of US politicians. I agree with you that most of these people didn't have any idea what they were voting on. These twits will condone any form of slaughter and oppression in order to get AIPAC off their backs.
I can understand (without condoning) the spineless voting on something like the anti-Goldstone resolution.
Voting for the resolution accomplishes nothing, costs nothing, results in nothing, is of no political cost to the people voting - and yet saves them from being targets of cynical and manipulative concern-troll-like attack ads, false accusations of being anti-Semitic - leveled by people who actually are anti-Semitic and would use such underhanded tactics to defeat American lawmakers who actually do support Jewish causes.
It's an effective strategy, form the same people who created and labeled the "Patriot Act" (which was one of the most blatantly anti-America pieces of legislation ever) and the "War on Terror" (whose primary intent was to keep us all terrified).
Boustany, judging from his surname ("garden" in Arabic) is of Arab descent.
What this shows is that on these issues, Congress is still AIPAC's poodle. It's disguting.
Not another bullet, not another dollar, not another veto for this odious little enclave.
juvanya says: "The report completely fails to look into Hamas's war crimes."
The actual report says:
In relation to the firing of rockets and mortars into Southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups operating in the Gaza Strip, the Mission finds that the Palestinian armed groups fail to distinguish between military targets and the civilian population and civilian objects in Southern Israel. The launching of rockets and mortars which cannot be aimed with sufficient precisions at military targets breaches the fundamental principle of distinction. Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population. These actions would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity.
juvanya says:"The extensive use of human shields, refusal to allow civilians to evacuate, among other things [the report failed to look into]"
The actual report says:
The Mission found no evidence to suggest that Palestinian armed groups either directed civilians to areas where attacks were being launched or that they forced civilians to remain within the vicinity of the attacks. The Mission also found no evidence that members of Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat in civilian dress.
Of course, what juvanya means to say is: "I didn't even bother to read the relevant parts of the report before whining about it and crying that anyone who agrees with the report is an anti-Semite"
Boustany is of Arab descent, Lebanese Christian to be exact (a group that does not often see eye-to-eye with Muslim Arabs on Middle East issues). Of the other two Arab-descended Reps (both also Lebanese Christian), Issa voted for and Rahall voted against, so I don't know to what extent Arabic ancestry is involved in this.
Both Muslim Reps (Ellison and Carson) voted no, while Jewish Reps (most of whom can ill afford to piss off AIPAC) went for the resolution 29-1, with 1 not voting, incidentally.
All the more reason we need J Street; we need to show that AIPAC is NOT the voice of American Jews.
There's something I've always wondered--do the people who uncritically support Israel think it's even theoretically possible that Israel could commit war crimes?
Maybe it's a sort of "if the president does it, it's legal" situation, or maybe they just think that becoming an Israeli citizen makes one physically incapable of doing wrong.
@Eric
Knowing a lot of people who think like that, I would say it's probably a reaction to over-criticism more than anything else.
Juvanya made the point above--and I think he's right--that Israel faces more criticism than any other government of comparable criminality, and more than many many others that are far worse (Alan Derschowitz has also written some interesting essays to this effect).
Since Israel is the ONLY Jewish state, much of this criticism is conflated with anti-Semitism, while much more of it is actually thinly-veiled anti-Semitism.
Under this atmosphere of constant criticism (and living with a very very real threat of terrorism), Israelis and their supporters get over-defensive and tend to dismiss the legitimate criticism along with the rest of it.
That dismissal may be abhorrent, but it is understandable.
@juvanya
Look, saying Israel is "singled out" is just like saying the MSM is liberal. Not true, plain and simple.
All the human rights groups and UN bodies said to be "singling out" Israel in fact do lots of work on human rights violations in all countries. You can repeat that resolutions are considered only against Israel a thousand times, but that would still be false.
In fact, Israel is allowed (due to the unconditional support of the US, first and foremost) to get away with stuff that other countries wouldn't dream of getting away with.
All that talk about Iran trying to get nukes, and Israel has nukes for more than 40 years now, without any public control, without having signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, with a clear risk of the far right taking over power in the state in the near future...
Or recall Iraq's invasion into Kuwait in 1990. Iraq wasn't allowed to get away with it. Israel continues to get away with 42 years (and running) of brutal occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.
UN resolutions 194, 242 and 338, among others, have been continuously violated by Israel for many decades now, with no consequences or sanctions whatsoever.
Yes, the US, the UK, China and Russia can get away with lots of human rights violations too, with even less international consequences. But that's not because of antisemitism, but because the international system is powerless against the powerful. Israel is one of those powerful, and after decades of oppression it's perhaps time for the international community to start growing some teeth.
PS: Jacob, relying on Derschowitz for information about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is about as good as relying on Glenn Beck for information on the healthcare debate...
@ Jacob
Oh yeah, I agree with you for the most part, I was just "kidding on the square" so to speak. It just gets frustrating sometimes.
I'd be interested in reading something by Derschowitz. I've avoided him in the past because he seems to be the kind of person we're talking about--one a little too trigger-happy with the Anti-Semitism card, to mix metaphors. Any suggestions?
@ Eric and Sergeiy
Yeah I don't agree with most of what Dershowitz says either--he and others like Abraham Foxman tend to jump to anti-Semitism a little to quickly--but he provides an interesting and relatable perspective that explains why some Jews instinctively defend Israel (even against unjustifiable actions). I would say Amos Oz' "In the Land of Israel" provides a good analysis of how people in Israel feel about the situation (though it's pretty dated).
And Sergeiy, many far more brutal regimes go mostly unnoticed and face little international pressure--when was the last time you read criticisms of Laos or Uzbekistan?
Others, like Myanmar, are universally acknowledged to be among the worst in the world, but don't draw criticism with nearly the intensity or frequency that Israel does.
Israel's inexcusable military incursions into Lebanon, for example, have drawn more attention than Syria's 25-year political occupation of that country (only recently ended).
And human rights groups don't single Israel out, that's true (I never said they do), but the reports on human rights issues in Israel tend to draw more fire than those of most other countries (especially when contrasted to say, international pressure on Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, etc).
Many Jews feel disheartened when all of the blame for the plight of the Palestinians is placed on Israel. Is Israel complicit? Of course, maybe even more than others. But the US, the UN, Jordan, Egypt, Palestinian leadership, and others share much more of the blame for the situation than is generally acknowledged. And more importantly, they have more power to address it than is generally acknowledged.
Nor is a distinction often made between the actions of Israel's government and the views of its population.
It's not really a question of what Israel can "get away with," though the general lack of US pressure on the Netanyahu regime is a serious problem, but of why Israel faces so much more vilification for the evils perpetrated by their government than most other nations.
Anyway, like I said before, more needs to be done to change Israel's behavior and account for past crimes, but the knee-jerk defense of Israel that we see coming from AIPAC (a thoroughly disgusting organization) and their allies is not without its reasons.
And Sergeiy, many far more brutal regimes go mostly unnoticed and face little international pressure--when was the last time you read criticisms of Laos or Uzbekistan?
Last week.
What you fail to understand is that Human Rights organizations work to detail abuses in every country they possibly can. It is only your own myopic viewpoint which causes this victimization complex. Israeli apologists don't bother reading about human rights abuses by any of these countries. They fixate solely on Israel. Then they launch factually false claims of bias against human rights organizations, like you just did.
But let's play make-believe for the moment and pretend that Israel is the only country in the world facing sanctions. Would that make their actions any more justifiable? Only moral relativists like Dershowitz bother to make these asinine claims that just because someone else is worse that means that Israel can do whatever they want.
"Is Israel complicit? Of course, maybe even more than others. But the US, the UN, Jordan, Egypt, Palestinian leadership, and others share much more of the blame for the situation than is generally acknowledged."
Hey, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are rich, why don't they just buy land for the Palestinians? They must be complicit in the Palestinian's plight! After all, they have 'more power to address it than is generally acknowledged'.
"Nor is a distinction often made between the actions of Israel's government and the views of its population."
Bullshit. Everyone goes out of their way to make that distinction. Especially in America, where people constantly note that Israelis are more diverse in their views about Israel than American jews.
Oh boy, where to start?
For actual CRITICAL analysis of this kangaroo document (which largely gives Hamas a pass, BTW):
http://www.goldstonereport.org
http://www.thegoldstonereport.com/
For a video of an outraged terror victim, whose testimony Goldstone SLEPT THROUGH and ignored in the report:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256799099006&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
And you guys wonder why Obama only has a 4-6% approval rating in Israel...
"For actual CRITICAL analysis of this kangaroo document (which largely gives Hamas a pass, BTW)"
This is what Joshua thinks 'giving Hamas a pass means':
In relation to the firing of rockets and mortars into Southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups operating in the Gaza Strip, the Mission finds that the Palestinian armed groups fail to distinguish between military targets and the civilian population and civilian objects in Southern Israel. The launching of rockets and mortars which cannot be aimed with sufficient precisions at military targets breaches the fundamental principle of distinction. Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population. These actions would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity.
The report says Hamas is guilty of War Crimes and possibly Crimes against Humanity?! My god, you're right! He's giving them a huge pass!
Thank god the completely unbiased Jerusalem Post is there to set the story straight and tell us that accusations of war crimes is akin to whitewashing.
I guess Joshua, you would agree that accusations of Israel committing war crimes is also 'largely giving them a pass' too, right?
OK Shma,
As indicated by above posts, I was more explaining why some Jews hold those views of Israel, not explaining my own views. Nor would I say human rights groups are biased against Israel, in fact, I said quite the opposite.
But since you've gone full tilt the other way I'll bite. Are you really saying there's more criticism of Uzbekistan or Myanmar in the world at large than of Israel? Seriously? That songs called "I hate Uzbekistan" top pop charts? That al-Jazirah and other major media sources regularly excoriates the corrupt Laotian regime more than Israel's? Really?
And if you think that only Israel is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians, or that only Israel has the power to change that situation, then you need a refresher course in 20th century history. Then again, I suppose that is how it's generally framed, right?
As it seems hard to understand, I'll reiterate that I'm not defending the views of Israel apologists, but trying to explain why they think the way they do.
And I promise you, if those of us who want to see peace in Israel and Palestine fail to understand the arguments of the AIPAC side or dismiss everything that Israel apologists say as purely 100% victimization complex, there will never be any progress on this issue. Never.
More point-by-point inaccuracies from the Kangaroo Court:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/search/label/Goldstone%20Report
This report is a joke and chock-full of shoddy investigating, uncritical taking at face value of Palestinian lies, and anti-Semitism. It also shows that only Israel can be punished. As shown from the past few days, UNSCR 1701 has turned out to be a complete joke, as Hezbollah continues to arm to the teeth (something that 1701 was supposed to prevent in the first place), especially in the region south of the Litani River, WHERE IT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ANYWAYS!!!! Just join the government, Hezbollah. Just do it, just give Israel an excuse to attack the ineffectual, appeasatory Lebanese government. I dare you!
I'm not even going to respond to you, Shma, because it's clear to me you didn't even LOOK at the links I gave you. For your blind eyes:
http://thegoldstonereport.com/truth.html
http://goldstonereport.org/procedural-flaws/incredulity/165-blocking-the-truth-of-the-gaza-war-how-the-goldstone-commission-understated-the-hamas-threat-to-pa
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/10/goldstone-report-does-not-condemn-hamas.html
Read these, then come back to me. Until then, I will consider your responses either ill-informed or Meretz/Hadash propaganda.
And another:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3793009,00.html
"As indicated by above posts, I was more explaining why some Jews hold those views of Israel, not explaining my own views."
Jacob said... Juvanya made the point above--and I think he's right--that Israel faces more criticism than any other government of comparable criminality, and more than many many others that are far worse
Israel receives criticism based on the importance of their crimes to international politics. And if you haven't noticed, international politics have been focused on the middle east for the last ten years.
"Are you really saying there's more criticism of Uzbekistan or Myanmar in the world at large than of Israel?"
Where did I say that? I answered your question about the last time I saw a criticism of Uzbekistan. And if you think that there hasn't been massive criticism of Human Rights in Myanmar then you weren't reading the paper during this catastrophe and its aftermath.
"That songs called "I hate Uzbekistan" top pop charts? That al-Jazirah and other major media sources regularly excoriates the corrupt Laotian regime more than Israel's? Really?"
Why yes, I must have said that since you produced direct quotes of me saying exactly those things. And anyone who doubts that would only have to search the terms "I hate Uzbekistan" and "al-Jazirah " to see if those are exact phrases made by me in one of my earlier posts. Of course, I would probably have spelled 'Al-Jazeera' with fewer typos.
But obviously, if Israel is not the least criticized country on Earth, then there must be bias against it, otherwise you wouldn't be saying any of this.
"And if you think that only Israel is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians"
They are responsible for the Palestinians' well being as an occupying force.
"or that only Israel has the power to change that situation"
Everyone has some power to help change the situation. That was my point. But only Israel has the responsibility under international law to change the situation.
"if those of us who want to see peace in Israel and Palestine fail to understand the arguments of the AIPAC side"
I understand them fully. And it's incredibly obvious how hypocritical and poorly constructed most of those arguments are. Seeing you repeat them uncritically and even pretend to justify them certainly does not indicate to me that you oppose these viewpoints.
This just in: Shma accepts systematic murdering and raping of Darfurians as "less significant" than Israeli defense against Hamas terrorists who camouflage themselves into the civilian population. Riiiiiight. Go spread your Hadash/Meretz propaganda somewhere else. And again, READ THE LINKS!!!
Joshua said..."I'm not even going to respond to you, Shma, because it's clear to me you didn't even LOOK at the links I gave you."
No, because actually looking at what the report has to say is probably too much for your fragile little mind to take.
If you actually saw Goldstone say that actions by Hamas "constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity" (page 32, paragraph 108 of the report), your head might explode. It's much better to just rely on second hand or third hand sources. Actually reading what the report says means I must be some kind of propagandist.
Edit: typo fix
This just in: Shma accepts systematic murdering and raping of Darfurians as "less significant" than Israeli defense against Hamas terrorists who camouflage themselves into the civilian population. Riiiiiight. Go spread your Hadash/Meretz propaganda somewhere else.
Jacob, I hope you're reading this, because these are the kinds of arguments you think we need to understand. Well, it's hard not to understand that kind of argument.
So where do you stand Jacob, do you fully reject the Goldstone Report or are you pro-rape and murder, like I supposedly am?
"...Seeing you repeat them uncritically and even pretend to justify them certainly does not indicate to me that you oppose these viewpoints."
*sigh*
And thus the difficulty of being a left-wing pro-peace Zionist in today's world.
How can there be peace with people like Joshua committed to excusing everything Israel does?
You have to try to understand them, and acknowledge the reasonable arguments that they make, but go relentlessly after their fallacious arguments (like condemning the Goldstone report).
How can the world make any progress with people like shma committed to viewing ANY defense of Israel or its backers as an apology for everything Israel does?
You have to explain context and why defense of Israel is so knee-jerk and endemic to Jewish thought.
Somehow its hard for some people to understand that arguments that don't bolster their own opinion are not always unreasonable.
C'est la vie.
And of course (as I said before) Israel is complicit in the plight of the Palestinians. I don't think anyone would say different.
Of course their could have been an independent Palestinian state at several junctures without Israel doing a damn thing differently, but that's immaterial now.
But those who refuse to acknowledge reverse pressures by the world community, lack of pressure by the US, the interest of Arab despots in keeping Palestinians oppressed and under Israeli control, the similar interests of Hamas warlords, and many many other factors will never grasp why the situation is so difficult to resolve.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to just see Israel unilaterally pull out of the Occupied Territories and take all of their settlers with them, but at this point I'm not sure that would really solve the problem for either society.
But such is the way of these difficult problems. If one side had a monopoly on truth it would be convenient, but that's just not reality. If there were a simple solution, someone would have thought of it by now.
And as to your previous comment, shma, I welcome the Goldstone Report and wish that more reps had taken the path of courage like Ellison here in Minneapolis.
Actually if you wanted MY position on the Report, you could have just looked at my posts at 9:48, 10:40, 11:47 and 1:37, before I took on the (evidently futile) position of trying to explain why people who disagree with me think the way they do.
Apparently, Jacob and Shma have never lived in Sderot. That was a left-wing town (consistently voted Labor) that turned right-wing overnight (now voting Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu).
And once again, Shma refuses to look at the links I said. Heck, one of the links even TOOK APART the paragraph he's trying to cite! How can I argue with people who can't understand WHY Israel went to war in the first place?
As an Obama supporter, I also have to point out that he needs to thank McCain for picking Palin, because had it not been for that, McCain would have ended up with a lot more of the Jewish vote than he did. Even my parents, who ended up voting for Obama, were initially inclined toward Hillary because of their perceptions of Obama vis-a-vis Israel, and also told me during the summer about the offense they took on the Cairo speech, which FAILED TO MENTION the Jewish people's historic attachment to the land of Israel, but rather intimated that Israel exists where it does b/c of the Holocaust. These are voters Obama may lose in 2012 if he doesn't watch out (heck, I think one of my parents voted for Anderson in 1980 rather than for Jimmy Carter again).
And shma, what we need to understand is WHY people like Joshua make the arguments they do
Jebus Joshua
Obama has done NOTHING to restrain the right-wing cabal in Israel.
Carter, on the other hand, brokered a peace agreement that has resulted in a stable (read: still tense but not violent) relationship between Israel and Egypt for 30 years. And that's BAD for Israel?
Fortunately most Jewish voters here are smart enough to see that propping up neocons is not in the long-term interests of Israel.
Frankly most Israelis are too, but their government changes every election.
By the way, Keith Ellison is my representative, and I'm very proud of him.
His vote (rightly or wrongly) on this notwithstanding, the following list of criticisms about Keith Ellison hardly make him seem like someone to be "proud" of...his hypocrisy is astounding. I don't know how someone can keep a straight face in attacking Dick Cheney for his indignant and self-righteous attitude while simultaneously maintaining the same attitudes towards paying taxes and fines that he's incurred.
Keith Ellison's Criticisms
This guy is a joke who should probably be thrown in jail.
For the record, it wouldn't bother me if Cheney spent a little time behind bars as well.
Jacob,
By airing dirty laundry in public that has done nothing but embolden the Palestinians to continue doing what they're doing (that includes their denial of Jewish history that borders on genocidal intent, something Obama completely AVOIDED (something that I think may have been intentional) at Cairo), Obama has done enough. Poll after poll shows Israelis circling the wagons and either not disapproving of Bibi too much or absolutely abhorring Obama. One poll showing Obama below 10% favorability may be a fluke, but not two times in a row. As it is, there's talk in the papers (Haaretz, JPost, Yediot Ahronot) that any withdrawal from Judea/Samaria (I refuse to use the superficial name the Jordanian government hoisted upon the region) would be impossible, as the Goldstone Report, by its implications of restraining military activity, would prevent Israeli response to the very real threat of rocket fire from the hills of Judea and Samaria, which have a considerable altitudinal advantage on the Green Line.
"How can the world make any progress with people like shma committed to viewing ANY defense of Israel or its backers as an apology for everything Israel does?"
I never said anything of the sort.
"You have to explain context and why defense of Israel is so knee-jerk and endemic to Jewish thought."
I'm a jew. Why is it not endemic to my thought?
"Somehow its hard for some people to understand that arguments that don't bolster their own opinion are not always unreasonable."
Make an argument worth the weight you give it, and then justify it with evidence or proof, and I will agree with you. I'm not as remotely closed minded as you think, and your rhetoric is not as unimpeachable as you imagine.
You seem to believe that just because you pick certain arguments made by people like Joshua and declare them to be reasonable, they must be.
You actually have to prove that. Telling me that Laos doesn't get enough coverage in the press does not mean that Israel is unfairly vilified. Stating that "Israel faces more criticism than any other government of comparable criminality" without proof or even an explanation of what you think 'comparable criminality' constitutes to you does not make it true.
You paint yourself as the 'respectable centre' but you fail to make the sound arguments that bolster your case. You obviously believe that Israel does not deserve the amount of criticism it's received because you've stated so in an earlier post. I am arguing with you on that and on your belief that Israel does not bear total responsibility for Palestinian well-being as an occupying force, something which is spelled out in international law. You do not even know my opinions on other Israeli-Palestinian issues. Actually, you do know that I consider Hamas to have committed war crimes. That doesn't exactly square away with me being the opposite of someone like Joshua, does it?
I am fully aware of the difference between people like you and Joshua who is not interested in rational discussion or even looking at the other side. But why should I take anything he says seriously when, after I quote the report directly, he refuses to acknowledge that his second hand biased sources are wrong? I'm aware of why he thinks the way he does, but there's nothing I could do to change it. If he doesn't want to look at what's really in the report, I can't force him to.
P.S. "Actually if you wanted MY position on the Report..."
I'm aware of your position on the report. My question was rhetorical and obviously not meant to be taken seriously.
@Mule
Yeah Keith's tax and fine issues are well known here, and while troubling, have not effected his ability to represent us (and as far as I know he has paid all requisite penalties so it's not really a criminal issue at this point--I'm not sure why he would be thrown in jail).
Still, Keith is an outstanding Representative--great constituent services, fierce advocacy of issues Minneapolites care about (including the Jewish community btw), a great diplomatic force dealing with Middle Eastern leaders (especially in Iraq).
And damn the guy has uncommon courage for a congresscritter.
Shma blurted:
"I'm a jew. Why is it not endemic to my thought?"
Because it's obvious you're either a Meretznik or a Hadashnik, a fringe of the fringe, even in Israel. BTW, still waiting on you to digest the links I cited that destroy your argument that Goldstone assesses blame on Hamas...
Joshua said...
"BTW, still waiting on you to digest the links I cited that destroy your argument that Goldstone assesses blame on Hamas..."
Why don't you copy that idiotic argument here so you can supplement your foolish and juvenile insults with ridiculous illogical claims from ynet or little green footballs or whatever sources you get your fake news from?
What, you want me to copy an ENTIRE newspaper column? Screw you, go read it yourself. I gave you the link, you have fingers. Use them.
shma, I am of the opinion that Israel takes a lot of heat that is not necessarily unfair in and of itself, but is troubling because there is not nearly as much pressure on other countries that commit worse atrocities. I don't think that should change how we react to Israel's crimes, but it does change how Israel and its allies defend them.
Many people use that reality to excuse Israeli actions, and that is my point. If we want to convince them to criticize Israel fairly, that feeling of over-emphasis has to be addressed.
If you don't think Israel faces outsized criticism not of its actions but BY COMPARISON to other countries that commit worse crimes, I can respect that opinion. But that disconnect does create problems in legitimizing the serious criticism of Israel.
I think you and I probably agree on almost everything else. I'm aware of international law, under which Israel technically has to withdraw to the Green Line immediately.
Frankly I'm fine with that, but as Joshua astutely pointed out, it would leave Israel incredibly vulnerable to attack, and that is an issue Israel cannot solve on its own.
"...why should I take anything he says seriously when..."
Sorry, I know I'm taking you out of context here, and this comes from a thoroughly reasonable point.
But the history of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations is full of statements like this within reasonable points. I'm just saying we have to understand even the illogical and bilious viewpoints to do anything about this conflict.
@ Mule Rider
Jacob kinda beat me to this, but I'd like to add that to conflate Ellison's and Cheney's crimes is perverse. Ellison was kind of a prick about his finances; Cheney helped create an extra-judicial nightmare world where innocents are tortured and mislead us into an illegal war that's killed hundreds of thousands.
Ellison could stand a night in the county jail; Cheney should be in The Hague.
Btw Joshua,
I'm a Meretznik and proudly so. Being in the minority doesn't make one wrong.
Anyway as they say, you get 3 Jews discussing Israel and you'll wind up with 6 different opinions...
BTW, for your COMFORT:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3793009,00.html
Arguments made:
-Hamas "condemnations" are mere lip service
-Hamas is considered "legitimate government" in Gaza, even after its violent coup
-Goldstone attempts to separate "political" and "military" wings, as if one doesn't take marching orders from the other
-Goldstone ignores EIGHT YEARS of rocket fire and the tie to Hamas
As for Elder of Ziyon's critiques of the report, there are just too many to list. Where do I start, with how the committee accepted Mohammed Abu Askar's testimony without asking WHY his son was targeted in the first place (hint: he was active in Hamas terrorist activities for a few years already)? Or how the committee dismissed REAMS of evidence of booby-trapping civilian areas , INCLUDING A ZOO AND A SCHOOL? Shma, just do me a favor, and SH'MA L'YISRAEL!!!!!!!!
Wow. Quite the smackdown going on today. Didn't realize what I had stepped into by insterting a random jab at Keith Ellison...guess other matters are taking a higher priority
*quietly steps out the back door*
Ooh, here's another one about how Goldstone ignores evidence that Hamas hijacks ambulances:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/10/goldstone-report-inaccuracies-part-19.html
And another one about how an "urban myth" (as described by the not-often-friendly-of-Israel New York Times) was incorporated into the report:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/10/goldstone-report-inaccuracies-part-17.html
Or how about accepting the testimony of a "witness" who accuses Israel of flooding Gaza with "sex gum"?
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/09/goldstone-report-inaccuracies-part-16.html
And on, and on, and on...
"but is troubling because there is not nearly as much pressure on other countries that commit worse atrocities. I don't think that should change how we react to Israel's crimes, but it does change how Israel and its allies defend them."
And the solution then, in my view, is for people passionate about fighting these other atrocities to speak up about them, not to tone down criticism of Israel until it reaches a level acceptable to it's stringent defenders.
"If we want to convince them to criticize Israel fairly, that feeling of over-emphasis has to be addressed."
Understood, yes. But not addressed by toning down criticism. Anyone who can be reasoned with understands that criticism of the actions of one country is not the same as appeasement of all others. The people who say 'no action on Israel until you clean up [some even more intractable problems]' are not people who can be persuaded.
"If you don't think Israel faces outsized criticism not of its actions but BY COMPARISON to other countries that commit worse crimes, I can respect that opinion. But that disconnect does create problems in legitimizing the serious criticism of Israel."
Only for people who have already decided regardless of facts and arguments that Israel is always in the right. And of course, these people don't really bother looking at criticisms of other countries because they are usually fixated on Israel. That's why they claim that HRW is someone biased against only Israel, when HRW spends time examining human rights in as many countries as they can manage.
"I'm aware of international law, under which Israel technically has to withdraw to the Green Line immediately. Frankly I'm fine with that, but as Joshua astutely pointed out, it would leave Israel incredibly vulnerable to attack, and that is an issue Israel cannot solve on its own."
I think Gaza puts the lie to that argument. Consider the rocket attacks. 28 Israelis dead from rockets and mortars in 7 and a half years before the incursions (those are IDF numbers). 13 Israeli dead in only three weeks of incursions. It's more dangerous to fight inside these territories than it is to leave them. And that's before you consider the positive political effects of a withdrawal (the more complete the better). I'm no Sharon fan, but he was right about withdrawal from Gaza. And obviously this isn't a fringe issue for Meretz supporters only. Withdrawal has been under discussion for decades in mainstream Israeli politics.
"I'm just saying we have to understand even the illogical and bilious viewpoints to do anything about this conflict."
That's the easy part. I mean, look at Joshua's ridiculous argument from ynet against the Goldstone reports. You see, because Goldstone charged 'Palestinian armed groups' with war crimes, he's not really condemning Hamas because...apparently Joshua doesn't think Hamas is an armed group made up of Palestinians. You obviously don't have to look at the 'rational' arguments here because there are none. It's mostly just shameless nitpicking in a desperate attempt to counter obvious truths.
"But the history of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations is full of statements like this within reasonable points."
Hey, I am willing to listen and respond to anyone initially, but after two or three posts like Joshua's, they are not going to be treated seriously by me. You are much more forgiving, I see, and I can appreciate that. But dialogue doesn't only have to take place with Likud. There are other, more reasonable political parties in Israel who will be the ones to solve this conflict. So I don't feel we need to approach these hard-liners at all to get things accomplished.
Anyways, it was very enjoyable to debate you, and I do appreciate your clarifications of your point of view on this.
Shalom aleichem (literally)
Hmm, so it seems that the biggest problem with the Goldstone Report is not its content but the fact that it doesn't condemn every evil deed that Hamas has ever committed.
But tell me this Joshua, regardless of whether Hamas war crimes get enough attention (and I'll agree that they don't), is there anything in there about Israeli actions that is flatly inaccurate?
Even if the report were one-sided (and it's not), there's nothing excusable in the targeting of civilians by the Israeli military, which is ultimately the powerful force in the occupied territories.
This entire war points to the fact that Israel needs to end this ferkakdeh occupation experiment as soon as possible. That will require of course real concessions from Hamas, but Israel has proven time and time again that force alone will not work.
And as comforting as it may be for many Israelis to have a tough-talking neocon cabal leading the government, it's shown no signs, not now nor ever, of improving the situation.
@shma
"The people who say 'no action on Israel until you clean up [some even more intractable problems]' are not people who can be persuaded."
I think generally you're right about that. The problem is, these are the people currently in power in Israel.
"I'm no Sharon fan, but he was right about withdrawal from Gaza. And obviously this isn't a fringe issue for Meretz supporters only. Withdrawal has been under discussion for decades in mainstream Israeli politics."
100% agree. But the withdrawal period I think will undoubtedly accompany a phase of increasing violence in the short term (emboldening extremists on both sides etc) as it did in 2006. Given the tumultuous nature of Israeli politics, it will be incredibly difficult to maintain the political will to continue withdrawal through initial difficulties.
If a peace-oriented government can ever stay in power long enough for this to take effect, we'll see the influence of the neocon Israeli right dissolve, but that's a very very big if.
"But dialogue doesn't only have to take place with Likud. There are other, more reasonable political parties in Israel who will be the ones to solve this conflict."
But the Likud, Yisrael Beiteinu, and the religious right have a majority right now between them. It will likely be a few years before there are enough reasonable voices to actually do anything. And then the moderates will need to act very very quickly.
Anyway, I hope that comes to pass before things get any worse.
And aleichem shalom to you as well.
Jacob,
Part of the problem is that the "testimony" against Israel is coming from inveterate liars (example: the "sex gum" guy. I mean, if he's lying about that, what else could he be lying about?). And there's the targeting of Abu Askar, the "urban myths" of civilian targeting (which you obviously didn't read, as I LINKED TO IT!!!!), the booby traps in civilian areas, calling human shields "targeting civilians", incorporating dead combatants into the "dead civilian" total, hiding weapons in mosques, refusal to acknowledge members of Gaza police force as known members of terrorist groups, AND what Hamas declared as "Operation Oil Stain", which was BEFORE Cast Lead even began!
In other words, you didn't read anything, either! There is PLENTY of doubt as to the claims of Israeli war crimes. If I can't trust you to READ the arguments I'm making, how can I trust your judgments at all?!
To those of you engaged in the whole Israel-Palestine war of words, what's the over/under on when that thing implodes into Armageddon and the End Times?
That is the ultimate destination of all this, you do realize? There will be a faux peace accord that will eventually be breached and then all hell will break loose...
Blogger Mule Rider said...
________________________
LOL. Left behind much? And I thought trying for Mideast peace was futile before!
Mule,
Well, the prophets of the Tanach do say that Israel will be alone, besieged on all sides, at the End of Days, with the armies of Gog and Magog allied against her. That way, all the more glory to G-d when He kicks ass.
As for the over/under, 2.5 years (when the Iranian A-bomb will be finished).
@ Mule
Wait, are you being facetious or are you really a Dispensational premillennialist? You always struck me as more of a secular conservative.
Eric said...
@ Mule
Wait, are you being facetious or are you really a Dispensational premillennialist?
~~~~~~~~~~
OK, had to look up premillennialist: ;)
Premillennialism in Christian end-times theology is the belief that Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign, at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Christ’s physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
Personally, think god has given up hope on his experiment called "earth" and we will be left to fend for ourselves because Christ ain't returning lol.
For the crowd who believe in the almighty ~ that god always was and always will be ie infinity, I digress.
p.s. Jesus was going to return but palin, gingrich, jindal, mittens, pawlenty, steele, bachmann, blackburn, boehner, cantor, joe wilson, perry, sanford, ensign, vitters, etc. changed his mind. :)
Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life on this planet ...
@Joshua (re: Sderot, etc.)
Well, dear, I'm from Beer-Sheva myself (just a few miles further to the east; plus I know quite a few people in Sderot itself who are of similar views to mine).
You also don't know shit about Israeli politics. Sderot, like most towns of its kind has had traditionally a pro-Likud majority. The only time that town voted for the Israeli Labour (that can hardly be called a left-wing or even pro-peace party nowadays) was in 2006, when former Sderot Mayor Amir Peretz was on the top of the ticket.
One more thing - you say Goldstone did not address seven years of firing rockets on Israel. Well, and did he address the eight years of brutal and murderous attacks by the Israeli army on the people in Gaza that happened at the same time?
I'm thoroughly amused with the meme about those "seven years of rockets" (actually, they usually say "eight years"). After all, the people repeating it KNOW that throughout that time Israel was by no means restraining itself in Gaza, and elsewhere.
But it's pointless to argue from fact with most Israelis and Israel-autoappologists. For them EVERYTHING the Israeli military does is morally right ex definitio. Every war crime and massacre is merely self-defence, you see, and if it's especially brutal, that only means those Palestinians deserve it. Besides, don't they all want to kill us? That's what Israeli kindergarten teachers teach their kids... And aren't all Arabs and Muslims inherently murderous and deserve to be killed anyway? That's the "common wisdom" (or common racist sham) in Israel.
When Israeli propaganda types tell you, or fellow Israelis, that "the world doesn't understand Israel", what they actually mean is that the world doesn't share the deep-rooted racism and exceptionalism that is the cultural backbone of Jewish-Israeli (as opposed to the Palestinian minority in Israel, that is) society.
One link for background: http://www.newprofile.org/data/uploads/child_soldiers/english.pdf
New link for people who don't like to/refuse to read: Reps. Berman and Ackerman cite chapter and verse THEIR objections to the Goldstone "Report" (funny, how these same objections keep appearing time and time again, as if it's a constant refrain of all that is WRONG and INACCURATE about it): http://washingtonindependent.com/66189/bermans-response-to-goldstone-on-house-gaza-war-crimes-resolution
Oh, and Sergei, got statistics to back up your assertion about Sderot? And I also notice that you didn't read any of my links, as if you had, you wouldn't have written the drivel that you did. In case you're another hater of reading, let me clue you in on what those links say: the Goldstone Report is propped up by unsubstantiated claims that can only be considered to be LIES!!!!! If a prosecutor were to use this document as his primary proof of guilt, a jury would acquit on the basis of reasonable doubt. Oh, and there's a lot of reasonable doubt, believe me.
Joshua, dear, the same "criticisms" of the Goldstone report are repeated because the same people are spreading the same talking points. None of those central scrutinizers (including your pro-reading self) has read the report itself...
It's very easy to cherry-pick and lump together anecdotes, garnished with a few half-truths and some obvious lies, to discredit anything you want to discredit. The fact remains that even Israeli soldiers who took part in the operation in Gaza openly admit to committing war crimes (or did so, until the military high command threatened them with prosecution if they don't shut up - the story got quite a bit of media exposure in Israel last spring).
About Sderot - if you read Hebrew you can find for instance this reference: http://www.ynet.co.il/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3668506,00.html.
Just one of the top results on a plain google search. It notes results for 2009 in a few places in Israel, including a bit of history. For Sderot it notes a large Likud majority in 2003 and 2009, while going for Labour in 2006, when Peretz was that party's leader.
On this issue, as on the Goldstone report itself, you're simply manipulating the facts for the benefit of official Israeli propaganda (or one of its semi-official branches, such as StandWithUS). People are gradually learning to see through all this.
Oh, now who's the clueless one, Sergeiy? I heard that your boy Dickie Goldstoner got stomped by Dore Gold at the Brandeis debate. The fact that you refuse to counter the "cherry-picking" means that something in them really bothers you, and thus your argument holds no water at all.
To tell you the truth, I'm not even sure if you're Jewish at all. I know that a whole bunch of questionably Halachic Jews came to Israel from the Soviet Union during the post-Cold War influx, and quite a few of them have been known to be openly hostile to Judaism and other Jews. The more I read your posts, the more I get the feeling that you are one of them, what the more religious would call the "erev rav" (because you're probably not Jewish, I'll explain this concept to you. Coming out of Egypt, there were quite a few Egyptians who mixed in with the Israelites, and this "mixed multitude" have often been associated with the rabble-rousers and rebels that cause detriment to the majority of Jews. It could be said that the Erev Rav constitute a greater danger to the Jewish community than Amalek!).
So yes, I am attacking you personally now, because I am beginning to question whether you are hiding your true identity.
@Joshua
F*** you from the progressive Jewish community. Are you seriously trying to question a guy's Jewishness rather than actually making a cogent point?
As with they US, the truest enemies of Israel have always been those who refuse to question its actions under any circumstances.
Thanks for the entertainment, Joshua! I had a good laugh reading your latest post.
Like any right-wingnut troll, you're showing the usual amusing symptom: inventing all kinds of wishful-thinking scenarios instead of dealing with the issues.
Man, had you spent half the time that you wasted on collecting "objections" to the Goldstone report on actually reading the report itself - you wouldn't be saying all that bulls*** about it.
Actually, if the people propagating those excuses had spent half the time they devoted to looking at how alert Goldstone was at what moment actually examining what went on in Gaza last winter, they'd all have to admit the report is balanced and truthful.
About myself, if you're so curious - I immigrated to Israel at the age of 6 from what was then the Soviet Union. That was in 1981. I wouldn't mind the authorities here to label me as erev-rav, or Amalekite, or whatever, but they insist on labelling me Jewish, and there's nothing much I can do to change it (I know people who went to court about it, and failed). After all, we're all soldiers in Israel's demographic wars, whether we like it or not.
Jacob:
F**k you back. The fact that you take Palestinian assertions at face value rather than questioning them makes you a greater threat to Israel's existence than I ever will be. Because, at the end of the day, you still can't fight the examples that were "cherry-picked". It's a typical Palestinian technique of The Big Lie, then never apologize when you're caught in the lie. Prime examples: Jenin and Al-Dura hoaxes. Like I said, you're more of an enemy to Israel and Jews worldwide than I am. And it looks like I'm not alone in that assertion. This blog post/long essay from an Obama supporter, who thinks Obama is giving the Jewish community the middle finger:
http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/11/obama-and-israel/
Anyways, sorry about the "erev rav" thing. I honestly thought you were related to those Russian Mafioso guys running Tel Aviv and setting up neo-Nazi groups in the heart of the State of Israel, seeing as how your rhetoric reminds me of a German porn-star's mouth.
PS: I am not a troll. Have you even SEEN some of my other posts at 538? Like I said, f**k you right back.
And this is why nothing will ever be done to stop Israel's war crimes. Defenders go so ape when you point out reality and the major media won't touch it. (for a variety of reasons, one being that americans are not supposed to have an influence on US foreign policy according to elites) We could easily be talking about native americans in the US as they were being wiped out, with the same hysterical responses from american super-patriots. Theyre savages that dont fight honorably so were justified in wiping them out, men women and children.
Joshua, dear, The killing of 12-year-old Muhammad Al-Dura and the massacre in the Jenin refugee camp are Hoaxes just like Obama was born in Kenia, 911 was set up, Rabin was murdered by the Israeli secret police (you probably believe that too, don't you?) and JFK was kidnapped by aliens.
The one difference is that behind the conspiracy theories you are citing here there's an entire country with a large greasy propaganda apparatus.
So, we have another who has fallen for the Palestinian tactic of "lie and deny". Evidently, he has a problem with his EYES, because if he had READ the links I posted, he would have seen his beliefs are BS. Then again, why even try? His beliefs are pretty much gospel to him, and arguing with him is like arguing with a global-warming or Holocaust denier.
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Ah but Joshua I never claimed to believe the BS spewing from the Palestinian leadership. See, some of us have the emotional maturity to understand that both Israelis and Palestinians are capable of crimes and falsehoods.
Those who insist that any conflict is one-sided are never capable of making peace, so enjoy defending war crimes from whatever nation you put your ultimate faith in for the rest of your life. (I suppose you'll argue that Iraq had WMDs in 2003 as well?)
And just because your "sources" don't like the Goldstone Report does not mean that they have proven anything to dampen its accuracy.
So go sell your case to someone without the judgment to discern that his side isn't always right. Might I suggest Avigdor Lieberman?
First off, the "BS" comment was directed at our newcomer. Or did you not get that when I said "we have another? Once again, you show how you fail to even try to read what I say.
Second, you still haven't proven anything. Those sources sourced their material in attacking the report, and what have you given me, a Cuisinart?
Third, talk of the pot calling the kettle black! You talk of accusing me of continuing to assert that Iraq had WMDs (I don't, BTW. I never supported the Iraq War, either, but yet you continue to assert that all Israel-supporters blindly supported Bush and his cronies. Also, FYI, I never believed the Fox News lie of "Iraq did 9/11". That's right, I NEVER FELL FOR IT!!!) based on false evidence, yet you go ahead and cite a document CHOCK FULL of false evidence!
If this type of lockstep party loyalty (you know, the type based on LIES) is what is required to be a member of the Democratic Party, then call me an independent! However, I know better than to trust the fringe of the fringe as representative of a whole movement. Otherwise, I would be citing Ron Paul as the be-all and end-all of all that is wrong with the Republican Party (as it is, Rush Limbaugh is a better standard bearer for that).
I would never accuse all Israel supporters of backing Bush. After all, I am an Israel supporter and I couldn't stand the guy!
If you're a Bush opponent, then I apologize for asserting otherwise. But is it really so offensive to believe that those who obediently swallow the neocon swill of one government would be susceptible to believing the neocon swill of another?
I am aware of where you directed the BS comment, but you did accuse me of falling for the lies of Palestinian leaders, which is flatly untrue.
So, Joshua, have you read the report itself yet?
About Jenin - there was an Israeli soldier, who operated at Caterpillar D-9 bulldozer and was DECORATED for making what HE called a football field by wrecking houses in the middle of the Jenin refugee camp. There were quite a few elderly and disabled people caught in those houses and killed as a result. That's called a massacre by my standards.
So, who's the Holocaust denier?
Speaking about the Holocaust - when one of my pupils in 10th grade tells me in class that he's for a "final solution for all the Arabs" (his words!) and everybody else cheers him for saying that - that gives me a perspective on what sort of society I live in.
So when I hear all the attempts made by the Israeli establishment to deny any atrocity that made news (there are thousands and thousands that don't make news, but are regularly reported to whoever wishes to know, and which Israel never bothers to make up lies to deny), when I hear, again, how anybody who's not patting the Israeli army on the back for doing what it does is called an anti-Semite and has a campaign of defamation run against him or her - I know too well I should take it with not a grain, but a pound, of salt.
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