Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Best Idea of the Day: Climate Change Futures Markets

11.23.2009

Best Idea of the Day: Climate Change Futures Markets

George Mason University economist Robin Hanson makes two interesting points in response to the controversy over the hacked e-mails at the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit, which triggered a self-congratulatory reaction among global warming skeptics.

Robin's first point is that the apparent bad behavior among the academic scientists is really nothing more and nothing less than you might expect if you'd unearthed ten years' worth of e-mails from virtually any academic department at virtually any academic institution in the world. I'm not an academic myself, but I work with them, socialize with them, interview them -- and I grew up as a university brat. The notion that academics are immune from institutional or external political considerations, that they're devoid of their own viewpoints and biases, or that they are otherwise some Platonic manifestation of the ideals of the scientific method is hopelessly naive. But that's an indictment of the scientists and not of the science -- and I'd virtually guarantee that if you'd hacked into the inbox of a global warming skeptic, or a Republican member of Congress, or the Exxon Corporation, you'd find them saying things that were equally uncouth.

But Dr. Hanson's more important argument is this one:

It is a shame that academia works this way, and an academia where this stuff didn’t happen would probably be more accurate. But even our flawed academic consensus is usually more accurate than its contrarians, and it is hard to find reliable cheap indicators saying when contrarians are more likely to be right.

If you don’t like this state of affairs join me in trying to develop a more reliable consensus mechanism on such topics: prediction markets. It just takes time or money. Prefer instead to act shocked, just shocked, when the other side is shown to do this stuff, while reserving your side’s ability to do the same? Then I have little respect for you.
Emphasis in original. I had the chance to meet Dr. Hanson for lunch last month, when I interviewed him for my book project. Now, Robin is certainly a bit more gung-ho about predictions markets than I am -- but he is also aware of their limitations. His perspective is that whatever their flaws, predictions markets are liable to be better than the alternatives, because they incentivize accuracy -- as opposed to some of the more perverse incentives that often prevail in debates about complex issues, and which were certainly manifest both at East Anglia, and among the skeptics who wrote about the "scandal".

Climate change predictions markets, indeed, could be a particularly fruitful application of the concept for a number of reasons:

1) The markets would help to clarify exactly the extent to which there is in fact a consensus about climate change. There is, I believe, an abnormally high degree of disingenuousness within the global warming debate, most of it coming from one side. We would very quickly find out if the skeptics -- and for that matter the believers -- were willing to put their money where there mouths were.

2) The market would help businesses and governments to hedge against both the dangers of climate change, and against potentially somewhat costly efforts to mitigate it.

3) The market would encourage climate change believers to add some specificity to their forecasts. Scientists have been somewhat loathe to make specific, near-to-medium term predictions about climate change (e.g. "there's going to be heat wave in Europe in 3 of the next 5 year"), out of what is probably a reasonable fear that they'll get more blame for an incorrect forecast than credit for a successful one. Markets would force people to think more strenuously about how to make reasonably specific predictions in an environment of great uncertainty.

4) The markets would encourage people from outside the academic sphere to develop their own models of climate change, thereby reducing the risk of groupthink.

5) The markets would encourage the development of new modelling techniques, and would encourage an allocation of greater computing resources toward the climate change problem -- existing CPU resources are generally inadequate as compared to the potential scope of the crisis.

6) The markets, if well designed, could help to provide an assessment of the tangible impact upon climate change of various policies under consideration by governmental and international bodies.

7) The markets, if well designed, could potentially help to establish a price for carbon, providing an alternative to the very useful pricing function of emissions trading markets if it is determined that such approaches are suboptimal or politically untenable.

8) The markets could help to price in new information more quickly -- something which is a bit of a problem since most of the work on climate change is being done in academic, governmental, or international institutions, which tend to slow-moving as compared with the private sector.

I'm sure that I could come up with a few more benefits -- as well as a few potential pitfalls. And certainly, the design of the markets is not trivial. But get Dr. Hanson and Justin Wolfers and Richard Thaler a few other smart people in a room and I'm sure they could come up with something reasonable. Personally, I'd envision a robust series of contracts on temperature, CO2 emissions, precipitation, and perhaps tropical storms that expired at various intervals along the lines of those used for US Treasury bonds -- say at 3, 5, 7, 10, 20, and 30 years. I'd encourage the use of options and perhaps derivatives, which can be helpful in pricing not just the mean estimates of temperature or precipitation but also the uncertainty surrounding these estimates. I'd run the markets through a major, cross-national platform such as the United Nations, IMF or World Bank, so as to encourage participation and create liquidity. And I'd make them open to as many people as possible with few legal restrictions or transaction costs. It wouldn't be perfect. But it would be a hell of a lot better than something like this or this pass for expert opinion on climate change.

123 comments

Zach said...

There *is* an intrade contract for projected temperatures... whether the mean global temperature for 2010 is closer to the 2007 average temperature or to the 2007 average temperature plus 0.09C (a phony projection that a climate change skeptic claims Al Gore would make). Obviously not quite what you're looking for, but still fairly interesting.

PaulK said...

You would want to have more localized metrics. The global climate could stay very similar in terms of overall temp or overall rainfall, but could be devastating if the local variants are too much. But, at the same time, you need to average over enough time to not just be messing with yearly variation.
So, for example, if the rainfall in a farming region was suddenly 1/4 as much on average over 4 years, it would be devastating, as would the rainfall being 4x in a dry area (flooding). But, that shift could show a global average that has not shifted at all.

MN said...

I guess I take a different tack.

If we'd find these in deniers, then maybe it's time WE HACK THEM and spread it around. We can't afford to play games here, if the planet goes belly up all sentient life in the universe is extinguished.

PeteKent said...

Nate:

Give it up!

Global Warming is just so five minutes ago!

No one believes in THAT anymore.

It's one more reason why the Dems and Obama will pay a spectacular price: They tried to create a whole new Tax and Trading scheme, all in the name of what they new to be false science (to the extent that they used their Stalinist tactics to silence and demonize those who tried to speak the truth).

The whole GW sideshow was cooked up as another way for the Totalitarian Left to get into our pants and control our lives.

Worse, it's main beneficiary was not Plantet Earth but Goldman Sachs who stood to make Billions off the Trading of these Credits.

Make no Mistake: Goldman Sachs (remember the deposed Gov. Corzine and Larry Summers to name but 2 Obama intimates with direct ties to that firm) is the IG Farben of the Obama Reich.

The nerve of these people to think that their Fascist and Stalinist tactics could work on the American people, who have caught wise.

Obama: The Pitchforks Are For You!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PaulK said...

@MN, "all sentient life in the universe is extinguished" -- huh? We do not know that. Assuming the worst, we can only say that all sentient life in the solar system is destroyed. The Universe is a big place.

Joel said...

There's a professor in my department who poured ether down the drain in order to avoid a fine from environmental health and safety. He even forged documents to try and cover his tracks. It certainly calls his integrity into question, but it certainly doesn't impugn his field as a whole.

Rudy said...

Prediction markets are an excellent tool if used properly and not bastardized to drive policy. The motives Nate states, to encourage innovation in prediction as a way to develop a superior opinion and thus make money, is the proper motive. However, if the markets are relatively small and prone to manipulation, being right must include a measurable definable near-term objective lest it be overrun by contrary money. Moreover, if the small market were to be used as "proof" of conceptual outcome in order to drive policy decision, the motives are unpure and the market suspect.

An example would be if a smallish market developed on the proposition of earth temperatures being x degrees higher by 2050, that market would be virtually meningless and prone to big money driving the price in a certain direction. If the price of such market were to be used as evidence of fact, that would not be a valid conclusion.

Bradford said...

Many academic fields are filled with petty people out to forward their own careers by jumping on the latest bandwagon and trying to be first to get all the "me too" funding from the gov paper pushers who need to fund the latest hot political topic. This leads to spin on the data, spin in the peer review, and spin in the paper selection by editors at peer reviewed journals leading to a push too far in one direction that goes well beyond the science. Global warming paranoia is the latest example, global warming is real but the paranoia and "sky is falling" scenarios are not true. This is yet another in a long line, in fact it is probably the average, in how modern high dollar, gov funded science really works.

The guys from East Anglia are the tip of the iceberg, I will await their paper on the obvious - they stated their own models did not predict the current short term cooling - but they did not publish on that did they?

Scientists are human and need to feed families...

werddrew said...

Until China buys two trillion dollars in "Global Warming is Real" stock and then pumps a trillion tons of carbon into the atmosphere to make sure they realize gains on their investment.

Farfetched, I know, but markets make people do odd things when they find a loophole...

Geoff said...

Nate, I don't think this is such a good idea. Climate science is already a 'tainted' field when viewed by other scientists, and often appears to be tainted by special interests- from both sides of the issue. Adding this market-based aspect to the science will further compromise its scientific integrity, and open it up to even more gaming from left and right.

PaulK said...

@PeteKent, please tell me you meant your comments as a joke???? If not, then note that (a) Stalin was on your side of this - industry mattered more than pollution (he was happy to destroy waterways, air over cities, forests, etc), (b) Stalin would not bother with Cap and Trade, he would use labor camps and "mental institutions" to take care of enemies and would have loved the "Patriot act", (c) it seems to be that the right wants in our pants as they love laws controlling your private life and choices, (d) global warming is based on science not on politics - the climate change happen whether you find it politically valid or not.

Irena said...

MN sez, "if the planet goes belly up all sentient life in the universe is extinguished."

This is already happening, as evidenced by the presence of climate change deniers among us.

DGA said...

@PeteKent

Hyperbole much, old timer?

These performances of yours do little to bring people around to your point of view. Rather the opposite effect is had: ranting like this with no respect for reason or accountability, hysterically, recalls to mind everyone's unwelcome mother-in-law. If you want to be taken seriously, get it together.

Here is one way to do it. If you want to claim someone is Stalinistic or Fascistic, figure out what those terms mean, cite some examples, in short, be a responsible adult about it instead of a streetcorner shouter. Weed out the ad hominem, the off-topic flourishes, the misinformation, and the attempts to bully those you don't understand. You'll post a lot less but you'll get a lot more said.

Apologies all around for being pedantic with the troll.

Bradford said...

PeteKent-

It is Sarah and Glenn who sound much more like Stalin and Hitler in their closed minded religious based approach, which admits no error and and has little problem using lies and manipulation as a means to an end. This story ends in a very bad, and very un-American, place.

Bradford said...

Irena and MN-

Get over yourselves, our intelligence cannot even explain gravity, if we are all the universe has got going for brains it might as well end the charade now.

For perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

Jacob said...

@Geoff

I think you meant to say "tainted when viewed by crackpots with an axe to grind" as there are no legitimate scientists who view climate science as especially "tainted."

But on your larger point I agree--scientific research should not be tied to markets.

C khripin said...

I think that idea is not so good. Near-term climate is governed by variations, such bets would be meaningless on a scale <20 years. You are missing the point, Nate. Climate change is outside the realm of economics, because its too far in the future. At a 10% anual devaluation rate, which is reasonable, a catastrophic event 80 years from now is virtually irrelevant; even if the damage be valued at 10 trillion, its a measily 5 billion in today's dollars. This is a matter for ethicists, not economists.

Maybe you can come up with a better incentive that the human conscience. We'll be waiting, because this isnt it.

Also good job slandering scientists. So the only problem with the scandal is ALL scientists are guilty of data manipulation and questionable ethics? Of course the Deniers already knew that.

Bradford said...

C khripin-

Looks to me like you are the one who is using spin to make a point, Nate never said all scientists manipulate.

I have worked in big science, and can promise you they all do spin. Most don't lie and only a few actually manipulate data, but boy oh boy, do they spin.

Jacob said...

Blogger Bradford said...

"Global warming paranoia is the latest example, global warming is real but the paranoia and "sky is falling" scenarios are not true."


That is a very interesting point. You hear all these examples about major cities flooding--I mean sea levels will rise--but the effects of global warming will be (in reality ARE) very gradual--i.e. decreasing biodiversity, increased erosion, less arable land, less potable water, more frequent and more dangerous storms, higher energy costs--elements that slowly make it harder for humanity to live by the same standards we have and gradually diminishing average quality of life. It's awful in every respect but it's not total annihilation.

I always kinda assumed that the emphasis on sudden calamities (even if exaggerated or not probable) was used to give the issue a political presence. People will take action if they think New York is about to flood but not if they think their grandchildren will have more difficulty obtaining food and transportation. The rationale for this sort of "sky is falling" grandstanding is perhaps meritorious but still far too dishonest, and explains the political angle.

But the motive you bring up--enhancing one's scientific reputation--seems even more insidious as it's de-legitimizing what is a very legitimate scientific enterprise in terms of methodology.

Geoff said...

@Jacob

My point was that in many ways it is driven by some degree of ideology in lieu of pure science, but yes, the non-scientists on the denier side are rather worse- and they would thrive in a market-controlled/driven research environment

Bradford said...

Jacob-

Have you ever done big science? Ever received and NSF or NIH grant? Science today is a politicized because it is very expensive and the the universities play along as they charge 100% "overhead" costs for the building and the lights to be turned on. Yup,about half your NIH funding goes to the bottom lines of the universities. I am not de-legitimizing science, I am telling the truth about the fucked up funding and peer review system that is as much politics as it science.

The reputation of scientists is thus not really based on papers, it is based on the cash they can bring to the university. Many, in fact it may be most, research professors are on "soft" money meaning that if they do not get the next big grant they are at risk to lose their jobs (and they do). The old academic that could sit in the ivory tower and smoke a pipe and think great thoughts separate from politics is gone, died with big money NIH and NSF grants.

Opus 132 said...

Scientists are human and need to feed families.

So do polluters! And big polluters are exceptionally greedy and devious in the bargain.

So much so that they might be tempted to affect a Climate Change Futures Market via heavy bets in order to influence GW legistration.

Bradford said...

Geoof-

Take none of these posts as indicating that a market in a long term issue such as climate change would be driven by anything but politics and the current "hot trend." It would not be predictive in the way a market for politics is as the market for politics is much shorter term, and the data (polling) us actually understood at some level or another by the bettors. This is untrue for climate change.

Bradford said...

Opus132-

I do not disagree, a market is a poor way to predict this. See prior post.

Drowzee said...

PK:
Okay, so, if GW is fake, why are the vast majority of glaciers and snowcaps melting?

Clearly, the whole world is cooling if even one glacier is gaining mass, right?

Or are you even saying that increased solar activity isn't heating up the world, in addition to mankind not being responsible for anything, so burn, baby, burn?

Bradford said...

Drowzee-

What you say is true, but PK is no more deluded on the right than the lefties who say Greenland will melt in 50 years or the the Little Ice Age was not a global phenomena and only happened in Europe. They are both completely full of crap, good luck trying to find the truth, I think it lies somewhere in a small warming that is likely slow and not that bad for the planet. But, I could be wrong as the data has so much spin in it it is damn hard to fund the truth and THAT is the scary problem with the folks at East Anglia who are gaming the science for politics and career advancement. The scary part isd that they are putting us all at risk by not providing straight data and analysis, as a good scientist should.

Jacob said...

@Bradford

Haha okay. Perhaps you didn't understand my point or I just didn't phrase it well. I meant to express that this trend of scientists jumping to Big Doomsday Pronouncements was f**king up science, not that you were doing so.

My intention was to express that I found your earlier post enlightening as I had only thought of "sky is falling" pronouncements as driven by political expedience/necessity, and not how scientists might be improperly motivated to make them as well.

Again, I'm trying to laud your insight and not refute it!

Jacob said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Bradford said...

Jacob-

Thank you. I am so unused to agreement here than I misread your post.

Beth said...

"However, if the markets are relatively small and prone to manipulation, being right must include a measurable definable near-term objective lest it be overrun by contrary money."

I think this is easier in theory than in reality to accomplish.

Lets just say that the fair market value for a contract is $1. $1 is bad for my organization. We need it to be higher. I send out an email explaining that we need it to be higher. Could people please bid $1.50? It will help our cause in the end to see the price higher. Some people do this, but others laugh and send the email to their smart friends. Their smart friends accept the $1.50 offer and everything else above $1. Eventually the manipulators run out of money and all they've really accomplished is giving 50c a contract to people that don't believe in their cause.

When it comes to issues of putting your money where your mouth is, there are more people willing to take profit off of zealots than there are zealots willing to lose money to make a point. Even if you were willing to sacrifice a lot of money for the cause, is this the best way to go about it. I mean is it better to basically pay off non-believers and let them manipulate you or just to use the money to make a TV ad.

I believe that markets are very efficient at telling us what the market as a whole believes the right price should be. Of course, the market as a whole is sometimes wrong. When they are wrong, its almost always because they made an honest mistake and not because they intentionally screwed with it.

JMHO

Jacob said...

@Bradford

Thank you for your acknowledgment as well. And it is truly a tragedy that the very real long-term impacts of global warming don't generally convince people to take action while the potential but unlikely immediately relatable impacts do.

Since you have more of a background in science, I'll take your word for it that scientists tend to publicize Big Scares for increased financial capacity.

As my background is in political organizing, I understand why it can be beneficial to make the impacts of a problem seem more personal and drastic to motivate action for the benefit of society at large (otherwise nothing can be addressed). But when this attitude spills over into scientific disciplines, the effects can be troubling indeed.

Statler N Waldorf said...

According to today's NYT, the GOP is considering a proposal to require all GOP candidates and elected officials to sign a 'Purity Resolution'.

This resolution breaks down as a ten point platform. Any elected official or candidate that wants to be recognized by the Party as a member of the GOP must adhere strictly to at least 8 of the 10 planks. Persons violating this resolution would be stripped of campaign support and/or funding.

Here are the ten planks:

(1) We support smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes by opposing bills like Obama’s “stimulus” bill;
(2) We support market-based health care reform and oppose Obama-style government run health care;
(3) We support market-based energy reforms by opposing cap and trade legislation;
(4) We support workers’ right to secret ballot by opposing card check;
(5) We support legal immigration and assimilation into American society by opposing amnesty for illegal immigrants;
(6) We support victory in Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting military-recommended troop surges;
(7) We support containment of Iran and North Korea, particularly effective action to eliminate their nuclear weapons threat;
(8) We support retention of the Defense of Marriage Act;
(9) We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing and denial of health care and government funding of abortion; and
(10) We support the right to keep and bear arms by opposing government restrictions on gun ownership.

Now, I realize this thread is about futures markets and climate change, but I just wanted to ask what you think the future political climate will change into if all moderates are Scozzafava'd out of the Republican Party before next year.

Mikhail said...

I would be very worried that something like this would prevent a lot of collaboration; it creates an incentive for the scientist with the best models to keep the models to themselves to make money in the markets.

Something to think about.

Gordon said...

The University of East Anglia is the university I went to, I know lots of people who have worked in the school of environmental science, geologists, climatologists, etc. they don't believe the holywood version of climate change, but they will tell you that Climate change exists, it is man made, and the chemistry of the atmosphere has changed quite radically because of us. These are not chicken littles, they are immensly practical people.

Mr. Universe said...

For our climate change denier trolls (and other interested parties). For every example of your conspiracy wet dream, I can dump loads of counter examples in support in your lap.

Here is a recent one.

I bet I have enough ammo to make Pete Kent's head explode. Have you ever noticed that whenever his argument is getting thin his posts get more insane until he finally goes away to recuperate?

Mr. Universe said...

@Statler

Yeah I saw the 'Publican Purity Pledge' earlier. I don't want to invoke the Godwin thing but that's frighteningly...fascist. And I mean that in the strictest sense of the definition of fascism.

I really feel bad for the moderate Republicans in 2010.

Hey did you guys see the trailer for the new disaster movie coming soon?

2012

Jacob said...

@Statler

Wow, that list is scary! Not just because those are awful goals (i.e. supporting the grossly unconstitutional Defense Against Marriage Act), but because many of the goals are contradictions in terms.

"We support market-based energy reforms by opposing cap and trade legislation."

So they support market-based energy reforms by opposing very moderate market-based energy reforms? How the f**k does that work? Are they saying that Cap and Trade doesn't go far enough? I guess I could get on board with that, but it's still a decent starting point.

"We support workers’ right to secret ballot by opposing card check."

And they support worker's rights to organize so long as they are not given the power to freely and fairly form unions?

Again, WTF?

"We support victory in Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting military-recommended troop surges."

They want some amorphous concept of "victory" that will only come through escalating endless wars?

"We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing and denial of health care."

And they want insurance companies to keep rationing and denying care...lest health care become rationed or denied?

The Republican agenda has long since abandoned the needs of ordinary Americans, but now it seems they don't even support items to achieve their desired goals?

Hopefully this tragic sham of a party will be reduced to political irrelevance before it is too late.

Mike in Maryland said...

Bradford,

Your description of reimbursement of ALL scientific research as you describe it is bogus.

BOGUS!

As an example - In the late 1990s, the Wilmer Eye Institute at Johns Hopkins Hospital was seeking funding to do research on the genetics of an eye disease.

Wilmer went to the National Eye Institute at the NIH, but NEI didn't want to fund such a study. Wilmer then went out to several private (non-governmental, non-industrial) people to seek funding. The private donors pledged MORE money than Wilmer asked the NEI to provide, and Wilmer received all the pledged monies, plus additional monies.

To date, Wilmer has narrowed the search of chromosomes for the 'offending genes' to a general locale on a single chromosome, but still hasn't found the exact site for the 'offending genes'. During this search, it has been able to answer several other questions about the human chromosome, and has identified the location of the gene that causes at least one other eye disease.

If you don't think the private donors are not watching how Wilmer spends that money, you are crazy. They will not put up for subsidizing the entire electrical bill for a facility in which even 1% less than 100% of the research is the genetic research they are funding.

More recently (during Shrub's administration), Case Western Reserve University went to the NEI at NIH for funding of research to find the same genes. Since getting that funding and starting their research, all CWRU has been able to do is confirm what Wilmer has already found. Important, yes. But is the addition of 100% overhead to CWRU invoices worth the confirmation of already found information from Wilmer?

Oh, and if you think Johns Hopkins is an amateur at applying for, and getting, government scientific funding, and that is why the NEI wouldn't fund Wilmer's request, it has been in the top 10 (not top 10%, but top ten) of grants, both in number of grants and dollar amount of grants, for decades. In fact, it was FY 1978 that JHU was NOT the number one recipient of total research and development funding at an academic institution.

BTW - ever see the contracting documents for a federally-funded research project? Or worked on developing one, or administered one (either as a contractor or in a government agency)? If you had, you would know that anytime someone wants to get paid for overhead, they have to justify that overhead, showing PROOF that the overhead is at the level the grant recipient says it is. If the recipient says overhead is 100%, but it can only prove it is 30%, the reimbursement for overhead is at the 30% level. There is no reimbursement at any level the recipient says it is, only at the level the recipient can prove.

Either that, or there is illegal contracting being conducted.

Mike in Maryland

Statler N Waldorf said...

It is telling that even Reagan would not have qualified for campaign support/funding, since even he didn't subscribe to at least 8 of those 10 planks.

That's right... their icon wasn't radical enough of a conservative to qualify as a Republican!

Rudy said...

Reagan would have backed all of them. Looks like a dammed good set of objectives to me.

Statler N Waldorf said...

1- Reagan expanded the federall deficit

5- Reagan favored immigration amnesty

8-Reagan opposed Proposition 6 as Givernor of California

10-Reagan favored and signed the Brady Bill.

Reagan-6 out of 10. Not pure enough

Robert said...

8-Reagan opposed Proposition 6 as Governor of California

While I think it's fascinating to learn that there actually was a minority group that Reagan didn't hate the crap out of, opposing prop 6 isn't quite the same as opposing DOMA.

Rudy said...

Oh, horsehockey, Statler.

#1 -- doesn't call for a balanced budget, it calls for lower deficits.

#5 -- Reagan did not favor an open border, he reluctantly favored the one-time effort to clean up the mess via amnesty, hoping that the immigration laws would again be enforced.

#8 -- the Briggs initiative was about job discrimination not homosexual marriage. Most people subscribe to that position.

#10 -- the Brady bill specifically did not trample the second amendment.

Reagan would support that entire list.

David said...

@Bradford
"they stated their own models did not predict the current short term cooling"

That's because there IS no "current short term cooling". The trend has been relentlessly upward. The cooling myth is an artifact of one extraordinarily hot year, 1998. There only appears to be a cooling trend if you compare subsequent years to 1998. If you compare with 1997 or 1999, or any other year for that matter, the globe is getting steadily warmer. Show me I'm wrong.

It's this kind of dishonesty/idiocy on the part of the deniers that make it impossible to take their claims seriously. NOTHING you can dig up on mainstream science can compare with the shenanigans pulled by the deniers.

Jacob said...

@Rudy

Well if the Brady Bill did not trample the 2nd Amendment then nothing the Democrats have passed on gun control has. Go contact your friends and tell them Democrats support their 2nd Amendment rights.

And Reagan was one of the chief architects of higher deficits in American history.


@David.

Well said! We need to counter this myth that the hottest year was (arguably) 10 years ago=there has been no warming for 10 years.

slasher14 said...

One problem with this idea is that such a market is likely to be vulnerable to skewing by interested parties. Nate wrote a month or two back about Intrade's market on McCain/Obama, I believe it was, being skewed in kind of a mild way in 2008 by somebody putting money on McCain, apparently in an effort to promote his electability by making him look better than otherwise. The skew was quickly corrected as Obama backers, attracted by the lowered price on their favorite, sent in money.

Until the market described herein was WELL established -- I would say the criterion would be that MANY, MANY began to use it as a hedge against actual damages caused by warming -- it could easily be overwhelmed by the oil and coal corporations, which would have a huge incentive to manipulate whatever index was used in order to defeat legislation intended to promote energy efficiency and/or changes.

The problem for green energy corporations is that they lack the capital backing to invest heavily enough to achieve economies of scale. They would not be able to retaliate in kind. Government legislation to promote green energy will almost certainly be necessary in the early stages of development. It will be harder to pass such bills if the carbon emitters can say "OK, you don't believe our captive researchers, but the MARKETS believe us," by tossing whatever amount of money is needed to cause that skew. It won't take much, until the markets have been around long enough for massive amounts of investors -- private and public -- to be involved.

Hunter L. Cook said...

This would be a neat idea...if a sufficiently liquid market could be made. Unfortunately, it can't. Any of the major fossil fuel interests could very easily overrun any realistic "volunteer" speculative market. And they would.

slasher14 said...

I sometimes think that when the history of the decade that is about to end is written, what will be noted as most important will not be that Bush/Cheney were conservatives and Gore/Lieberman were not, but that Bush/Cheney were OILMEN, and deliberately forced America to ignore the need for green energy for eight years, whereas if Gore had won we would now be eight more years down the road to bringing the same level of entrepreneurship to green energy as we brought to developing the PC under Reagan and the Net under Clinton.

Instead, we were forced to do nothing for eight years while the rest of the world got cracking on the problem, and thus the jobs that were outsourced during the 2000s were never replaced.

David said...

(1) We support smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes by opposing bills like Obama’s “stimulus” bill;

Through 2008, about 90% of the national debt had been accumulated under Republican presidents.

The reviled stimulus bill had nearly $300 billion in tax cuts in it.

Working toward reducing a deficit during and immediately following the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression is suicidal. It is exactly what Hoover did in 1929-32, and GDP fell by about 35% and unemployment went up by almost 22%.


(2) We support market-based health care reform and oppose Obama-style government run health care;

It can't be market-based AND reform. Except for a pathetic public option which will be avaailable to about 2% of the population, there is nothing government-run about the health plans circulating in Congress. Now the UK ... THAT'S a government run health system. Canada has a government run INSURANCE system. Most of Europe has hybrid systems. ALL of them work vastly better than ours.

(3) We support market-based energy reforms by opposing cap and trade legislation;

Cap-and-trade IS the market-based reform. It's what GHW Bush enacted for sulfur emissions control instead of regulations. A carbon tax, which would be much more effective than cap-and-trade, is the alternative to the market based approach. Geez, we're only at item #3 and already we're up to 3 lies.

(4) We support workers’ right to secret ballot by opposing card check;

Whatever.

(5) We support legal immigration and assimilation into American society by opposing amnesty for illegal immigrants;

Fine. The reality is that illegal aliens are today what Jews were in 1930s Germany. We blame way more of our problems on them than they could possibly be responsible for. They are scapegoats, and those who "oppose amnesty" are just trying to gain personally from the xenophobia of the ignorant. Geez, I think I liked the lies better.

(6) We support victory in Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting military-recommended troop surges;

I support living forever by eating yogurt and blueberries.

(7) We support containment of Iran and North Korea, particularly effective action to eliminate their nuclear weapons threat;

Me too. Got any ideas on what actions might be "effective" in that regard?

(8) We support retention of the Defense of Marriage Act;

Wow, looks like the gays of today are the, um, gays of 1930s Germany. Is there ANY minority group you guys don't hate?

(9) We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing and denial of health care and government funding of abortion;

Opposing health care rationing? So everybody gets all the health care they want? Hooray!!!

I'm fine with not funding abortion, by the way. The children of those predisposed to having abortions are likely to grow up to be Democrats.

(10) We support the right to keep and bear arms by opposing government restrictions on gun ownership.

I'm fine with that. It would be unseemly if the Vice President had to shoot his hunting partner in the face with a bow and arrow.


Great set of principals. Nothing about financial market regulation, nothing about addressing the horrific inequities in the tax structure, in which the wealthiest pay the same tax rate as the poorest, nothing about our crumbling infrastructure. If you look closely, there are NO proposals, just a list of things that you don't like.

Would be an awful shame if this were an effective campaign strategy.

Juris said...

@Nate: Congratulations: FiveThirtyEight.com was just named one of "Our Favorite Blogs of 2009" ("Fifty blogs we just can't get enough of") by PC Magazine.

beavis said...

- Reagan did not favor an open border, he reluctantly favored the one-time effort to clean up the mess via amnesty, hoping that the immigration laws would again be enforced

Who favors open-borders?

No matter what excuse you care to bring, the fact is that Reagan did support amnesty to "law breakers". Not only is that weak on "crime", no conservative today would stand for amnesty for ANY reason.

In other words even Saint Ronnie would not be welcome in todays GOP.

beavis said...

Oh, and gun nuts went bonkers over the Brady bill.

It was seen as a massive violation of the right wings selective view of the second amendment.

Mike in Maryland said...

Rudy (the completely rudderless) said...
Reagan would have backed all of them.

The word 'all' is a pretty conclusive word, rudderless.

Are you absolutely sure you meant all? The definition of 'all' normally means 'without ANY exception.'

Maybe you meant 'most'?

But even then, you would be incorrect:

Just for starters, here's how Ray-Gun stacks up with Item 5 of the 'Purity Resolution':

". . . legal immigration and assimilation into American society by opposing amnesty for illegal immigrants. . . ."

- The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), also Simpson-Mazzoli Act (Pub.L. 99-603, 100 Stat. 3359) was an Act of Congress which reformed United States immigration law. The Act . . . granted amnesty to certain illegal immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously. The Act also granted a path towards legalization to certain agricultural seasonal workers and immigrants who had been continuously and illegally present in the United States since January 1, 1982."

Signed by President Ronald Reagan on November 6, 1986.

I guess that Conservatards would think 9 out of 10 constitutes 'all'?

Or is it 8 out of 10?

". . . smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes. . . ."

The number of federal government employees rose at a faster rate than population increase AND inflation would dictate; the federal debt grew from under a trillion dollars (it was $997 Billion on September 30, 1981 [eight months after Ray-Gun was sworn in]) to more than $2.6 Trillion (on September 30, 1988 - almost 4 months prior to Ronnie Ray-Gun's departure from office).

7 out of 10?

". . . retention of the Defense of Marriage Act. . . ."

Would he? In 1978, The Briggs Initiative, sponsored by John Briggs, a conservative state legislator from Orange County, would have banned gays and lesbians, and possibly anyone who supported gay rights, from working in California's public schools. [At that time] Former Governor Ray-Gun issued an informal letter of opposition to the initiative, answered reporters' questions about the initiative by saying he was against, and, a week before the election, wrote an editorial in the Los Angeles Herald-Examiner opposing it.

And later, as President, Ray-Gun had several known gays in the White House for over-night 'sleep-ins'.

6 out of 10?

". . . supporting military-recommended . . . ." (the 'oath' only talks about military surges), but what about military-recommended anything, such as the military call to Ronnie Ray-Gun, which he then ignored, to pull out of Lebanon? It only killed 299 US servicemen when the suicide bomber exploded the vehicle outside the Marine barracks in October, 1983.

Maybe 5.5 (or rounded down, 5) out of 10?

". . . containment of Iran and North Korea. . . ."

At the same time we were an ally with Iraq against Iran, we had a little side deal that erupted into the Iran-Contra scandal. How would that be parsed - 'The enemy of my friend is my ... friend AND business partner?

Doesn't look like Ronnie Ray-Gun would survive the 'Purity Resolution', does it?

As to your assertion that the Brady Bill "did not trample the second amendment", that's not what we were told by the NRA when it was being debated.

(Oh, and you could have debunked that one REAL quick if you had done some research, and found that the Brady Bill was signed into law on November 30, 1993, well after Ray-Gun left office. See, recitation of Conservatard slogans for recitations' sake doesn't always serve a tea-bagging Conservatard, does it? You could have scored a rhetorical point if only you had taken a few seconds to look up 'Brady Bill' at a search site. Too late to apologize for your Conservatard laziness.)

Mike in Maryland

DogofWar said...

A trade market wouldn't address the issue of climate change, rather it would only exacerbate the issue. Groups would create studies in order to counter scientific proof of climate change (similar to the way the Lewin Group created studies backing up the Republican talking points on Healthcare, even though those studies and talking points were bs). You'd end up with the market being divided and there being even more confusion. In the end, a "wait and see" approach would be adopted, which is honestly the exact thing scientists do not want to happen.

Furthermore, when it does become "wait and see," there'd be some pretty hefty moral implications for those involved. After all, creating a market that ensures no action is taken, which results in the starvation of millions world wide, the flooding of major cities, etc, is a pretty big moral burden.

Believe me, I would gladly throw down thousands on the climte change side of the bet, putting my money where my mouth is, per se, but at the same time, investing in such a market would strike me as being part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution (two criteria for this being exempted; 1. climate change would have to be past the tipping point, and we are rapidly approaching that due to the issue of carbon capture in the ocean, 2. I would give proceeds from such a market to a fund to ensure well being for those displaced by climate change).


As for the Rethuglican purity list, I say let them implement it. Perhaps it will do them some good in the short term, but it will either be abandoned in the long term (very likely, though hypocritical) or lead to their doom (less likely than the former option, but still possible). They are building this list with short term ideology as their guide, and as such they are just asking it to be blown up in their face.

Also, Reagan would have failed on those some of those ten points, though I'm going to focus on the deficit part. Reagan actually passed a stimulus bill in the early 80's, it was just disguised as a check to the military industrial complex. Reagan's spending was so high and unprecedented that in hindsight its terrifying. He raised the debt to several times what it was at the beginning of his term (from around 1 trillion to around 4 trillion) a 300% increase. No president has matched him on that front, though Bush has beaten him on the pure money front (though I haven't adjusted for inflation, so I could be wrong).
The point is, Reagan was about as fiscally responsible as Paris Hilton on a shopping spree with Mike Tyson.

Jacob said...

@Mike in Maryland

Though you're absolutely right that Clinton, not Reagan, signed the Brady Bill into law, it's important to note that Reagan was an avid supporter of the bill, and it was named for an aide--Jim Brady--who was permanently wounded in an assassination attempt on Reagan.

Reagan even wrote an eloquent and thoroughly moving editorial in the NYT detailing his support for the bill:

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/opinion/why-i-m-for-the-brady-bill.html

And damn it looks like out of the 10 points on the purity pledge, good ol' St. Ronnie would only have supported 3 of 'em. These are #2 (anti-health care) and #3 (anti-environment). He might have also supported #4 (anti-union) but remember he came into politics as a union president, which would be enough to make him persona non grata on the right today. Hell, they hate union leaders more than trial lawyers, teachers, and scientists combined! The icon of conservatism wouldn't stand a chance in today's GOP.

Wow, I almost feel a modicum of respect for the old bastard. That's a scary thought...

J. Baldridge said...

Wait a minute. This seems absurdly counter to the goals of preventing climate change. If you bet that, say, the earth's average temperature will rise by x degrees by 2030 (a fair bet if you believe current research on climate change), then you can only "win" and cash in your bet if that actually comes to pass. Seems to me like that actually encourages in-action on the part of those who believe global warming is a reality.

So... you "win" by seeing the temperature rise. This is not a good incentive to work for lower global temperatures.

Sorry, I think climate change cannot be addressed adequately with a market-based solution. This one's going to require democratic intervention in the economy.

shiloh said...

Juris said...

@Nate: Congratulations: FiveThirtyEight.com was just named one of "Our Favorite Blogs of 2009" ("Fifty blogs we just can't get enough of") by PC Magazine.
~~~~~~~~~~


redstate and freepertopia are demanding a recount!

Nate's on a roll, named one of The World's 100 Most Influential People by 'TIME Magazine' in April ~ and as many winger conservative trolls will tell you, has a very lively, intelligent, thought provoking progressive political blog to boot ~ despite said trolls futility in finding an interesting, yahoo, winger site to frequent.

Congrats Nate!

OK, interesting/conservative, an oxymoron to be sure ...

Mike in Maryland said...

Jacob said...
Wow, I almost feel a modicum of respect for the old bastard. That's a scary thought...

Jacob,

I had the same feeling, and I had to check what the date was (no, not a Friday the thirteenth - whew!).

Mike in Maryland

Bradford said...

Mike in MD-

You are simply wrong, and acting like your pompous average. First, Hopkins was able to get funding from private donors for one study, good for them. That is far from the average.

Second, yes, I have received grants and seen all the documents. Ever writen a proposal? You are wrong and confusing two types of overhead. Indirect costs are fixed by the university and must be paid by the funding organization, period. Are they justified, yes, in the same way the gov justifies your tax payments to you. They are generally set by a DoD office and places like Stanford used them for years to put flowers on the university yacht every day - true justification. The second type of overhead cost has to be paid by the researcher and covers anything any normal person thinks of as overhead and thus the research prof has to pay it twice. I was on a multi-center grant where the NIH funds went to Hopkins - they forced the gov to pay their indirect costs and then sent the money to other institutions and those institutions (at least U of Chicago) made the gov pay their indirect costs too! A complete joke, and a complete waste.

Congrats Mike on proving yet again that you know a little about alot, but alot about almost nothing.

Bradford said...

David-

Sorry, but you are worng. The models predicted a complete expotential rise in global temp, but it has slowed or stopped the lst ten years. The guys from East Anglia noted it in this email:

“The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.”

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977910534

Here are the files: http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php

Bradford said...

Beth-

It is hard to imagine that someone would manipulate a market of this type, until you realize that Nate alleged just that last year during the presidential election last year. He stated here, that he thought folks were manipulating election markets to try to influence the election.

Neal said...

The problems with a market based on climate metrics:
- The correlation between cause and effect is statistical and noisy: Even as the earth heats up in trend, you get both extremely warm AND extremely cold events. This is expected, but causes problems in agreeing on a pay-off criterion for the metrics; and
- There is the possibility of market manipulation.

These problems are avoided if we could set up a market in climate-change harms futures:
- The harm is the harm (for example, the value of a pine forest ruined by pine-beetle infestation, or of a dead coral reef), one doesn't have to play games with the pay-off criteria; and
- Market manipulation is self-correcting: Somebody who wants to mislead the world by undervaluing the harm is setting himself up to be a big loser if he pretends the expected harm will be less than he honestly thinks; and somebody who wants to mislead by hyping the price will be a big loser the other way; and
- A climate-change future harms market can be used to provide compensation to those who get the "short stick" of climate change. I guess it can be regarded as a form of climate-change insurance. One problem: Only relatively well-off people can pay for this insurance, so this model would be directly workable in NYC but not on the shores of Bangladesh; unless there is an arrangement between the Bangladeshis and a third party with the cash to pay the premium, such that the third party receives the difference between the pay-off and the actual harm.


I think it's an intriguing idea. There is still the need to find a way to evaluate the harm (against what baseline? and so on); but focusing on the economic impact directly instead of on the physical metrics of climate gets everybody's hands "onto the table", as well as providing economic relief.

Bradford said...

David-

Oh, and I think at least part of the reason the East Anglia models have been wrong over the last ten years is that the models undervalue the suns inputs as a cause of global temp changes. They had to reduce the suns input as a measure in order to increase the effects of carbon dioxide and man made inputs so their really scary scenarios worked. They drove this and the lowered solar input factor is also part of the assumptions in the UN's IPCC report.

Bradford said...

In oyther news -

Nate, please push for a war tax!

"Two veteran Democratic members of Congress have called for imposing a "war tax" to pay for a troop increase. Representative David Obey, chairman of the House of Representatives Appropriations Committee, and Senator Carl Levin, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee proposed the idea, which got a cool reception at the White House.

A congressional aide said that under the idea, families earning under $150,000 a year would be taxed at one percent of their tax rates. The tax would be higher for those in the $150,000-to-$250,000 range and those making $250,000 or more. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6640563/Barack-Obama-to-announce-30000-Afghan-troop-increase-next-week.html

Bradford said...

Is the war tax meme gaining ground? Seems a great idea to highlight the costs of the war even if the bill is, in the end, defeated.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/11/24/63339/939?new=true

Momotarō (桃太郎) said...

Just saw this on the BBC:

Climate 'is a major cause' of conflict in Africa

Climate has been a major driver of armed conflict in Africa, research shows - and future warming is likely to increase the number of deaths from war.

US researchers found that across the continent, conflict was about 50% more likely in unusually warm years...

--

I thought it was especially apropos for this discussion.

Momotarō (桃太郎) said...

... sorry, here is the link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8375949.stm

David said...

Bradford - I don't care about the emails. Look at the damn data, as reported by the Goddard Instutute for Space Studies:

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

"The year 2007 tied for second warmest in the period of instrumental data, behind the record warmth of 2005, in the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) analysis. 2007 tied 1998, which had leapt a remarkable 0.2°C above the prior record with the help of the 'El Niño of the century'. The unusual warmth in 2007 is noteworthy because it occurs at a time when solar irradiance is at a minimum and the equatorial Pacific Ocean is in the cool phase of its natural El Niño-La Niña cycle.

"Figure 1 shows 2007 temperature anomalies relative to the 1951-1980 base period mean. The global mean temperature anomaly, 0.57°C (about 1°F) warmer than the 1951-1980 mean, continues the strong warming trend of the past thirty years that has been confidently attributed to the effect of increasing human-made greenhouse gases (GHGs) (Hansen et al. 2007). The eight warmest years in the GISS record have all occurred since 1998, and the 14 warmest years in the record have all occurred since 1990."

There is always going to be scatter in the data. There will be cooler years, there will be warmer years, but look at the trend lines and there is NO evidence of cooling (or even stasis) in the last 10 years. That 2005 was the warmest year ever recorded belies such nonsense.

David said...

Hi Bradford - Thanks for the links.

You might be interested to know what preceded the "smoking gun" paragraph that begins "The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t."

Even if you're not, here it is:

"Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming? We are asking that here in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal is 69F, and it
smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about 18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low. This is January weather (see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last night in below freezing
weather)."

Yes, 2008 was a much cooler year than 2007, and climatologists are scurrying to figure out why, so they can refine their models. But the crack about "it was cold today, so that about wraps it up for global warming" is a standing joke. Dr. Trenberth was sarcastically complaining that it was cold out today and it's a travesty their models couldn't predict it. The humor would be apparent to anyone familiar with the anomalous low temperature in 2008. There is NO implication ANYWHERE that there is a cooling trend over the course of the last 10 years that climate scientists are finding difficult to explain.

Anything else you'd like to take out of context?

Michael (mbw) said...

Robin's market idea seems to work well for many cases where the feedback is fairly quick, so lots of players enter for some fun and profit. Global warming is quick on an ecological scale but not by investment standards. It's particularly slow by the standards of entertainment-driven investment. In the intermediate run, El Nino's etc. obscure trends with what amounts to large noise. On the other hand, as others have noted, there are enormous economic incentives for huge players (Exxon-Mobil) to distort the markets, if anyone is making use of the market predictions. So this doesn't sound practical.

As for what Bradford (ne Fred?) says about the sociology of science and about global warming, pay no attention. A department head may be happy about getting big overhead, but international reputations depend far more on what you actually get done. His claims that global warming will be mild aren't based on any actual science. Neither are the claims of some others about 'ending sentient life', which isn't even in the range of possible scenarios.

shma said...

Bradford is spending so much time spreading his conspiracy theories, it's hard for one person to refute everything he says due to the shear volume of crap he's posted.

So thanks to other people who have taken on some of his lies and smears. I'll just add my part.

Let's start with this idiocy

"I have worked in big science"

Big Science? The total budget for the NSF last year was 6 billion. The total budget for the NIH was 30 billion, with 26 billion going into research funding. That's 36 billion to fund public research in the US. Compare this with just ONE oil company. ExxonMobil made 84 billion in operating income last year. Its revenue was half a trillion dollars. That's a single company. Scientists barely have the money required to do the research they want, they don't start fabricating stuff out of thin air.

"The models predicted a complete expotential rise in global temp, but it has slowed or stopped the lst[sic] ten years."

Lies. Climate scientists make long term average predictions, not year-over-year predictions. Cherry-picking endpoints (it's only X degrees hotter in 2000 than it is in 2009!) won't tell you anything about the future climate, because is a lot of short term noise. Looking at long term trends on the other hand, tells you we're warming up pretty quickly. What does that graph tell you, Bradford?

"Get over yourselves, our intelligence cannot even explain gravity"

I think he means "I can't understand gravity", because those of us who are smart enough certainly can.

"Oh, and I think at least part of the reason the East Anglia models have been wrong over the last ten years is that the models undervalue the suns inputs as a cause of global temp changes. They had to reduce the suns input as a measure in order to increase the effects of carbon dioxide and man made inputs so their really scary scenarios worked."

Do you have any evidence at all or any expertise in this area?
Speaking of which, in what area of "big science" did you work in? At what university? Where did you get your PhD? Who was your supervisor? Do you even have a PhD? In what field? Do you have any training in physics at all? Do you know anything about atmospheric physics? I notice all your claims about working in academia are conspicuously vague.

Mr. Universe said...

@Jacob

He might have also supported #4 (anti-union) but remember he came into politics as a union president, which would be enough to make him persona non grata on the right today.

When the air traffic controllers went on strike in the eighties for better working conditions and pay, Reagan's response? He fired them all. To this day I think air traffic controllers still identify DC's main airport as 'National' and refuse to call it 'Reagan National'.

Robert said...

To this day I think air traffic controllers still identify DC's main airport as 'National' and refuse to call it 'Reagan National'.

They're not the only ones, I, and many people I know in the area don't either. Just cause the republicans felt the need to take a whiz all over the government's buildings with reagan's name doesn't mean anyone actually has to use it. :)

vonwerder said...

Congress controls the purse, not the president. If you recall, all of Reagan's budgets were declared DOA by congressional dems.

Repubs have controlled the senate (and therefore the congress) with more than 60 votes exactly zero of the last 50 years.

Deficits are a function of Democrats.

Oh, everyone knew AGW was BS but progressive dems hoped the con would last long enough to pick everyone's pocket once again.

Jacob said...

@Mr. Universe

Yeah Reagan did love union-busting (I also still refuse to call the airport Reagan when I fly through there), but I still think his SAG connection might make him "impure" to the modern right regardless of his actual actions.

Then again, maybe they don't mind unions for people who are already super-rich, i.e. Jim Bunning's union organizer days.

Persuter said...

It is hard to imagine that someone would manipulate a market of this type, until you realize that Nate alleged just that last year during the presidential election last year. He stated here, that he thought folks were manipulating election markets to try to influence the election

Nate showed that there were anomalous trades on Intrade which seemed to be someone manipulating the price, but I do not recall him saying that it was done to influence the election.

As people pointed out then, attempting to manipulate the price of a prediction market is essentially tossing money down a hole.

Bradford said...

Persuter-

I am sure they were inflating McCain's chances because they just, well, liked to waste money. Good point.

Bradford said...

shma-

Huh? The NIH and NSF budgets are small? How does comparing them to the most profitable corporations mean anything? Are you ok? Do you need some help to draw analogies that make sense?

The assholes at the best one of the best climate change departments in the world said they were wrong, go argue with them smart guy. YUou are simply grasping at straws.

LOL! So, you have figured out the theory of everything and understand gravity, I am sure the Nobel committee will be interested, publish and call them.

I am not getting in a pissing contest on a board, my posts show I know what I am talking about, yours do not.

Jacob said...

Ah vonwerder,

You probably didn't notice that 7 of 8 budgets passed by the Democratic House and Republican-controlled Senate (for six years) during Reagan's term were actually smaller than the proposed budgets, right? Because if you did know that but made your half-assed point anyway, that would just be dishonest.

And of course you didn't notice that Republicans controlled the Senate for about one-third of the last half century (the majority party decides what comes to the floor generally speaking). Believe it or not, Democrats didn't filibuster every last bill the way Republicans in the Senate do now.

And those Republican Senates? Mostly during the budget-busting Reagan and Bush Jr years (the latter and more egregious of whom also had a GOP House).

Why your deficits argument seems to be as big a load of crap as your AGW argument!

I mean I wish AGW wasn't real too, but some of us can't afford to live in fantasy worlds. but of course Democrats are just using AGW to collect $ that they want to spend...to counteract AGW? What a strange scam! Why come to think of it, Cap and Trade doesn't collect money for anyone, not even the big bad gummint. I'm getting more and more confused on how this scam works...

Jacob said...

So suddenly the University of East Anglia became "one of the best climate change departments in the world?" How did the rest of the scientific community miss out on that?

Pragmatus said...

What I’d like to see taken seriously is that we have much more to fear from ice than from global warming.

The mean climate state of earth in the present epoch is very cold. We live in a relatively rare inter-glacial period, which generally last ten thousand years or so and then another Ice Age (which last for upwards of 100,000 years) sets in. Yet nobody is confronting this reality. Why do Ice Ages happen? Science doesn’t know for sure, but the best bets are that it has to do with the failure of the Atlantic gyre (i.e. Gulf Stream) that brings warm water up to western Europe. Once that cycle shuts down, there is nothing to keep polar cold from resetting Europe’s thermostat, and the ice takes over.

So why would the Gulf Stream shut down? Again no one clearly understands this, but models of fresh vs. salt water in the northern Atlantic point to the possibility that if enough fresh water melts from ice in Greenland and the high Canadian arctic it will cover the surface of the ocean and drive the warm Gulf Stream deep underwater (since salt water is denser than fresh). Its warmth then will no longer get to the Europe. Once the ice starts forming, its reflective properties cool the earth further, leading to more ice, more reflectivity—a runaway icebox.

I figure it will begin to happen no later than mid century, but alas the chances of me still being around to say “I told you so!” are not propitious.

:o) :o) :o)

shma said...

Pathetic, Bradford

All your posts show is that you are as ignorant as any of the right wing trolls on this board. You spread your nutjob conspiracy theories about how scientists are all in it for the money when the total public budget for science research in the US doesn't even come close to one tenth of the budget of one company, you've only proven your own inability to think like a sane person.

You make false claims about your knowledge of anything scientific
(the fact that you don't even know that general relativity is a theory of gravity, something that any undergrad physics student knows, proves it), won't even mention the nature of your own self-professed "expertise", won't offer any evidence that you even studied science, let alone where you studied or what you studied.

You don't understand the first thing about physics, let alone atmospheric physics.

And your idea of a 'pissing contest' is naming the university you went to and what field you studied (assuming all those claims aren't make believe, a proposition that gets more and more likely with each of your ignorant posts).

Pragmatus said...

David…

Just read your long post of 1:26 a.m. Great points!

Pragmatus said...

A few points…

♦ Global warming is an established fact. Nobody but a moron would deny it.
♦ Man has contributed significantly to global warming by driving up concentrations of both CO2 and methane. AGM is an indisputable fact.
♦ However global warming began before the Industrial Revolution. Glaciers in Switzerland retreated dramatically during the 18th Century, as abundant Swiss records show. So the process was already underway when man began to accelerate it.
♦ Freeman Dyson’s prediction that plants will probably take up much of the excess carbon before it harms the climate is likely correct, although he does not provide proof or even evidence to back his claim up. But it must be remembered that plants flourish (we have a Burmese honeysuckle that grows a foot a day in warm weather with ample water) on the tiniest imaginable concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere—around 300 parts per million. For plants to be able to effectively harvest a resource so skimpy suggests that their capacity for dealing with super elevated levels is, almost certainly, underrated. (Every green living thing on earth has built itself from this incredibly minuscule resource.)
♦ The chance of a runaway greenhouse effect is virtually zero. The planet has been much warmer in the past, and such an outcome has not occurred, and there’s little sensible reason to think it will now.
♦ As I explain above, the typical climate of the earth in the present geologic age is very cold. We happen to live in an unusually warm period (an interglacial), and since there have been Ice Ages in the past we can assume they will come again. That’s the thing we should be preparing against.
♦ The chance that mankind will come to any sort of agreement to lower greenhouse gas emissions is virtually zero. The industrializing world (i.e. China and India) will refuse all pleas to restrict their growth in order to cut carbon emissions. China runs primarily on coal, and will continue to do so for the rest of this century. Even with today’s heightened awareness of CO2 escalation scarcely any country (including the US, prompted by the rightwing screamers—nobody can do anything as long as they are able to scream and derail any rational discourse) have no interest in reducing carbon emissions.
♦ Cap and trade will never get off the ground because no other country on earth will ever make any similar serious commitment.

My opinions only, but they were arrived at after considerable thought, so all flames, brickbats and insults directed at me (instead of rational disagreement) will be cheerfully ignored.

shrinkers said...

@vonwerder
Congress controls the purse, not the president. If you recall, all of Reagan's budgets were declared DOA by congressional dems.

True. And all of Reagan's proposed budgets had larger deficits than the ones passed by Congress. To some (minor) extent, they reined him in.

Alan_K said...

I'm usually just a lurker here but I'm really captivated by this event.

A few opinions/observations-

1) as has been mentioned in earlier comments- I see enormous potential for the energy industry to manipulate a market of this sort. Not only would favorable trading potentially translate to favorable legislation, but I would imagine it would have an affect on stock prices too. I would think these extrinsic considerations would violate whatever assumptions that make one think a market like this would arrive at an accurate conclusion. This is an industry that doesn't even think in units below billions of dollars.

2) I'm a PhD researcher, and I'd like to stick up a bit for the current academic model. No-one thinks it is perfect, in terms of the politics of funding or peer review. Yes fields can become dogmatic and slow to accept new ideas. But I fail to see how putting opinions on the open market is really a better idea. Particularly if they boil down to single dichotomous predictions. What if we find small effects on air temp in the short term, but large effects on sea temps? What if polar regions are differentially effected? This market approach would seem to magnify the "forest for the trees" problem, and potentially push scientists into worrying about irrelevant endpoints rather than broader understanding of what is going on and how to mitigate.

I've seen some mention of overhead costs in grants. Yes the contribute to bloated university infrastructure, but to be fair, a lot of that is useful, including bridging grants for faculty, insurance, expertise for compliance for health and safety, lawyers to help with patents, etc. In some cases the level of overhead seems extreme, but I would argue that it is not entirely wasted money. Also, even considering overhead costs, spending in academics is an incredibly good deal. Compare the cost of a professional consultant (potentially 100k or more per year) who will work at most 40hr/week and put together the minimum required product, vs. faculty or graduate students who have no life and who need to over-achieve to survive.

shma said...

I'd be happy to disagree rationally with you, Pragmatus

"However global warming began before the Industrial Revolution."

I don't know how accurate this statement is, and I would like some proof that this is part of the scientific consensus (such as a link to an IPCC report where this is stated).

"Freeman Dyson’s prediction that plants will probably take up much of the excess carbon before it harms the climate is likely correct, although he does not provide proof or even evidence to back his claim up."

Then how do you know it is most likely correct?

"But it must be remembered that plants flourish on the tiniest imaginable concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere—around 300 parts per million."

0.3 parts per thousand is the tiniest imaginable concentration in the atmosphere? There are plenty of other gases in the atmosphere with smaller concentrations (see table here at the bottom).

"For plants to be able to effectively harvest a resource so skimpy..."

A small concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere does not mean the resource is 'skimpy'. The atmosphere has a mass of about five quintillion kg. There's a hell of a lot of CO2 there for plants to soak up (Note that the amount of CO2 is NOT 0.0003 x 5 quintillion, since your cited concentration is by volume and not mass). Apparently the amount of CO2 released each year by humans is over 25 trillion kilograms.

"...suggests that their capacity for dealing with super elevated levels is, almost certainly, underrated"

Actually it suggests nothing of the sort. It is just as logical to argue that if plants can survive on a small amount of CO2, then there's no reason for them to have evolved a capacity to absorb a large amount of CO2. Of course, my above point makes this moot. In fact, I imagine that different plants have different capacities for absorbing CO2, so I think this whole line of argument is a coarse generalization that is in need of an expert on plants. Freeman Dyson is not such an expert.

"The chance of a runaway greenhouse effect is virtually zero"

Agreed.

"We happen to live in an unusually warm period (an interglacial), and since there have been Ice Ages in the past we can assume they will come again. That’s the thing we should be preparing against."

What? What evidence do you have that an ice age is coming within our lifetimes?

"The chance that mankind will come to any sort of agreement to lower greenhouse gas emissions is virtually zero."

Well I hope you're wrong, but I'm honestly pretty cynical. I think we'll be able to lower emissions somewhat but not near the level necessary to prevent serious consequences.

"Cap and trade will never get off the ground because no other country on earth will ever make any similar serious commitment. "

I disagree with that. Some counties in Europe like Denmark and Germany have already seen large reductions.

Michael (mbw) said...

@Pragmatus-

You've missed the main problem with AGW, which is not that the Earth needs to be at just our current temperature. It's the destructiveness of major change on time scales shorter than, say, the time it takes a forest to drift to a new optimum latitude or the time it takes for corals to evolve toleration for lower pH and higher T.

As for the claim that there was any consistent global warming in the last 10,000 years comparable to what's going on now, anecdotes about single glaciers just won't cut it.

Shygetz said...

@Bradford: Sorry, but you are quite wrong and have no idea what you are talking about.

"Indirect costs are fixed by the university and must be paid by the funding organization, period. Are they justified, yes, in the same way the gov justifies your tax payments to you."

Completely untrue. Indirect costs are NEGOTIATED between the grant recipient and the granting agency, whether they are private or public. Larger grantee institutions negotiate set rates every few years (I think two to four years), but they are negotiated and are subject to revision. I also know that, in some cases where a private grant tries to reduce or eliminate indirect costs, the grantee will refuse the grant. Why? Because someone has to pay for the secretaries, the light, the lab space, etc. If you had ever really administrated an NIH or NSF grant, you'd know this.

"The second type of overhead cost has to be paid by the researcher and covers anything any normal person thinks of as overhead and thus the research prof has to pay it twice."

Bull. Shit. NIH grants, for example, require that administrative and clerical salaries be treated as indirect costs except for when the nature of the work clearly requires increased clerical/admin staff (for example, for large surveys or clinical trials). Facilities costs are also not allowed to be billed directly. And this doesn't even consider routine things like recruitment, health and safety, infrastructure, etc. Again, if you had ever administrated an NIH or NSF grant, you'd know this; additionally, you could have checked NIH guidelines on the web.

"I was on a multi-center grant where the NIH funds went to Hopkins - they forced the gov to pay their indirect costs and then sent the money to other institutions and those institutions (at least U of Chicago) made the gov pay their indirect costs too!"

Grantees may only charge indirect costs on the first $25,000 of a subcontract (regardless of how large or how long the subcontract is); this covers the costs of administering the contract, which are real. Considering that grants tend to go in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, this is a pretty strict limit that would prevent most double-dipping.

Given that you exhibit such false certainty on matters where you clearly are clueless and I am quite experienced, why should I listen to you in matters where I consider myself undereducated, such as climate change?

Irena said...

"I figure it will begin to happen no later than mid century"

Hi Pragmatus - Good description of the subduction of the Gulf Stream, but from what I hear from my friends at Woods Hole, it's not all that likely to happen for at least 50 years...if ever. It would certainly be devastating to western Europe, but I haven't heard anyone postulate that the decreased albido from that small area would overwhelm all the increased temperature drivers. Maybe.

"So the process was already underway when man began to accelerate it."

I'm not sure this is true. Just because Europe may have been warming before the industrial revolution, all the data I have seen suggests that the global average temperature was fairly stable compared with the dramatic increase we've seen since the middle of the 20th century.

"Freeman Dyson’s prediction that plants will probably take up much of the excess carbon before it harms the climate is likely correct."

I'm not sure. If this were true, why haven't the plants kept the CO2 levels from rising? There are a number of negative feedback mechanisms, but I have no reason to believe they would be anything but first order, and so would be characterized by a first order time constant. I understand this time constant to be in the thousands of years. So I wouldn't be the farm on plants bailing us out. I'd keep planting trees, though, it can't hurt.

"The chance of a runaway greenhouse effect is virtually zero."

Actually, it's virtually unknown. There are also positive feedback mechanisms, including the reduced albedo from ice caps and snow cover and methane release from the arctic tundra. Granted, we'll never turn the planet into Venus and kill all life, but we could make enormous problems for the life that has adapted to existing conditions (which includes us).

"The chance that mankind will come to any sort of agreement to lower greenhouse gas emissions is virtually zero."

Now on this one I concur with you, for all the reasons you state and more.

"Cap and trade will never get off the ground"

You're probably right here too. I prefer a carbon tax anyway, but that one is DOA for sure.

Thoughtful thoughts. I enjoyed reading them.

Bradford said...

Shygetz-

The only time they are negotiated is when they are established are when their is a huge grant and they might change. They are NOT established on per grant basis or NIH would do nothing but this. You have never been in the room, you have never talked to the grant office about how to determine indirects on a grant. Why do people feel the need to come here and lie?

I guess it is possible NIH may have woken up to indirects in the ten years since I received a grant, but it is doubtful. Indirect costs on only the first 25K? You are just wrong - NIH almost never grants under a few 100K and the indirect costs as reported by the Chronicle are 28.5% : http://chronicle.com/article/NIH-Grants-for-Indirect-Costs/38321/

Also, those only represent part of the indirect costs, as you note. I, and anyone who does any real work outside of academia, would call building and the like indirect costs as they are only tangentially related to research. So, I get a million dollar grant, 250K to 500K goes to the university via indirect costs. What planet do you idiots live on?

Bradford said...

Also, I can freakin' promise you that every University charges indirects on a multi-center grant. Why NIH did not give the money directly to one university is still beyond me (that may do that now) but I can also promise I watched it happen.

Finally, learn to read:

http://scienceblogs.com/drugmonkey/2009/10/indirect_cost_snooping.php

Look at those Harvard Med indirect cost rates! http://www.researchcrossroads.org/index.php?view=article&option=com_content&id=245&agreement_number=U2051306

Nott even close to limited to some fictional secretarial pool limit of 25K. You do not have a clue!

Wow! Chicago has 52.5% overhead costs for "organized research." Hmmm, sounds like alot more than you act like! http://www.researchcrossroads.org/index.php?view=article&option=com_content&id=245&agreement_number=U6502306

Pragmatus said...

shma…

Ah, I will be glad to respond.

I have been an armchair scientist for many years, and have subscribed to Natural History magazine since the 1970s. More than one study has been referred to there (it is generally a compendium of other work, rather than an original source) that have pointed out 18th glacial records in the Alps which document without question that glaciers were disappearing at the time. The Swiss, if nothing else, are extremely methodical. I’m too lazy (besides being otherwise busy at the moment) to look up any references but these original studies have appeared in Nature. If you Google “Swiss glacier retreat” you can probably find the sources.

Dyson made his statement for a reason, and since I have heard my expanded commentary alluded to elsewhere I’m assuming he used the same thinking as his basis. The total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere means nothing to any plant; what matters is the ratio, and 300 parts per million is a very small amount. As an analogy, if the food you ate contained the same ratio of usable nutrition you’d have to eat at least 50,000 pounds a day just to keep alive. Plant matter is mostly carbon. You can demonstrate this yourself by heating any green plant in the absence of oxygen until it turns completely black—that’s the amount of carbon present, after the nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen has been driven off. It’s the single most abundant element in plant material. So while I can’t prove the stupendous efficiency green plants display at making use of carbon (and Dyson felt he didn’t have to by simply saying it was “self-evident”) I didn’t think it necessary to go any further. It’s a simple step from that understanding to believing that excess carbon would mean increased flourishing of plants, but as you say the evidence is circumstantial rather than conclusive.

Yep, there are many other gases with smaller concentrations, but none of them are particularly useful in plant metabolism. We’re only talking about carbon here.

Intermission—my commentary is too long. Second part coming up immediately.

Pragmatus said...

Second part…

What is known about previous glaciations is that the temperatures of the inter-glacial periods shot up dramatically just prior to the ice age setting in. There have been at least ten ice ages that I know of, stretching back two million years, so this process has been well studied via ice cores which allow prehistoric gas ratios and pollen sampling. So since 1. the typical ice age starts just subsequent to a dramatic increase in temperature and 2. the typical inter-glacial period lasts just about as long as it has been since the last ice age, it is not unreasonable to surmise that the climate is on the cusp of a slide into another ice age.

And yes, Denmark and Germany certain deserve to be commended, but their impact on CO2 production is teaspoons-full compared to the amounts spewing from countries like India and China (not to mention the US) and all the places in the world that rely on slash-and-burn agriculture. Conservatives in the US complain that since nobody is forcing the Indonesians to stop burning their fields every year ( a major source of pollution and CO2 increase from Asia) why should we restrict our industries that spew out carbon? Coming to a global-wide consensus on even limiting CO2 production will, in my view, sadly, never happen—much less any agreement on the reduction of CO2.

I have no quarrel with people who think we may be headed toward a global warming disaster—I just don’t agree with them. Even thinking as I do I believe it would be wise to be able to control CO2 emissions, as well as other pollutants people so casually and heedlessly throw into the environment.

Michael (mbw)…

Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest that there were very warm periods during the last 10,000 years, I meant over the long history of the earth. During the Age of Reptiles for examples the climate was so warm that both poles were temperate, with a climate about what you’d find in Europe today. The temperatures during the Age of Coal (when non-flowering plants flourished that eventually became our coal deposits of today) the climate was even steamier. (The climate has also been so cold that at one time the entire earth was frozen over.)

Bradford said...

Oh, and because of your attitude Shygetz, feel free to apologize. NIH pays overhead like it is going out of style my friend!

Bradford said...

Pragamatus and shma-

Actually, you are confusing C3 and C4 plants. For C3 plants the ratio is important, in C4 plants it is not. We are reaching CO2 levels where C4 plants lose their advantage C3 plants based on current atmospheric constituents. In fact you can find C3 plants like soybean actually having increased yields in the downwind areas from big cities (assumedly from increased CO2).

Pragmatus said...

Irena…

Hey, kudos to your friends at Woods Hole! I freely admit that my conclusions are speculative. I used the Swiss data on glaciers merely because at that time they were providing the only reliable climate statistics, at least so has been claimed. There has been work done on the movement of some Antarctic glaciers which suggest that their increased movement had to have begun as much as 2,500 years ago—but I can’t cite chapter and verse on that one.

Yep. Keep that farm out of any betting on climate change! That plants can have an ameliorating effect is not the same as saying they can solve the problem entirely. I don’t think even Dyson suggested that.

As for a runaway greenhouse effect having a zero probability I base that assumption on nothing more solid than the fact that it hasn’t happened in the past, and we have a long, long way to go before we ever reach temperatures that the earth has successfully dealt with in the past. That said there is no doubt that the oceans and many, many species will suffer, as has been true umpteen times over geologic history. The difference this time is that there is a thinking species that might take a hand in preventing the worst of these effects, although getting a significant proportion of these critters to agree on what to do is problematic to say the least.

Bradford said...

Pragmatus-

Agree completely, if the change is not catastrophic (e.g. huge methane bursts from the ocean floor - which I think and hope is unlikely) we should be just fine. Most food is cultivated, and we have very good plant breeding in most cultivated species now. The problem is population growth, not global warming.

Glenn Doty said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Pragmatus said...

Bradford…

Excellent point. I had not considered the methane release problem from both permafrost and continental shelves.

Maybe that proved some trigger for climate reversal in the past? If there’s methane locked up in permafrost/elsewhere now, perhaps that was also the case 100,000 years ago, at the end of the last interglacial period, which a sudden warming released and then set in motion a cascade of events that eventually resulted in everything freezing up again.

At any rate, I’ll bet the next fifty years will be very interesting climate-wise.

Glenn Doty said...

Very interesting idea...

But you left out what is by far the most important metric to have a market on: sea level rise, or global melt rate.

What is not well understood is that the day-to-day climate over any one region is meaningless... the melt-rate, more than any other measure, shows the absorbed energy of the global climate.

Phase change from solid to liquid requires a certain amount of energy to be absorbed that will not result in additional temperature.

If a ton of ice melts, then that 0 degree C ice absorbed ~590 MJ of energy from the environment... and became water at 0 degrees C.

No temperature change in the H20, just a phase change... but the same amount of thermal energy as would be generated from burning ~ a bbl of diesel would have been absorbed.

Globally, we're seeing ~1 Tt (a trillion tonnes) of ice melt every year. Regardless of whether the air is slightly warmer from one year to the next, this melt rate is accelerating, and clearly shows more energy being absorbed by the atmosphere than in the past when the ice sheets and glaciers were stable (or in some cases growing).

So a market for melt rate, or ocean level rise, would be critical.

Otherwise - VERY interesting.

Bradford said...

Pragmatus-

There almost has to be some missing variable in the equation as the current models will not lead to the type of changes we have seen in the past. The methane equation might be a good one, but if memory serves the methane change should have been seen in ice core data where bubbles are trapped, and it was not seen to have increased. I have not read this data is awhile, so I could be wrong...but...

This is what leads me to solar irradiance changes as a primary driver. It makes perfect sense as it is the primary energy input into the system, it is known to be variable and is not well understood, and the record for solar irradiance in the past is really very poor, thus this could explain why we are having so much trouble coming to a coherent picture of what really happened in the past. Add that to the fact that the real global temp over known time correlates well with the sunspot number, and...

shrinkers said...

I'm not a scientist, and I don't play on eon the Internet. I am merely a citizen who tries to be well-informed, and who reads a lot of science papers.

The consensus among peer-reviewed papers is unanimous. The world climate is warming, dramatically and at an unprecedented rate. This is due, in part, to the immense (and, again, unprecedented) levels of carbon dioxide, methane, and a few other greenhouse gasses, than humans have been pumping into the atmosphere.

In addition, we have been crippling the ability of the Earth to respond - through deforestation (which lowers the ability of land-based plants to bury carbon), oceanic pollution (ditto for oceanic sequestration) and destruction of biodiversity in general.

We are making the problem worse, and doing things which make the "natural" solutions incapable of dealing with it.

There's no question that the Earth - and Earthly life forms - will survive. The problem is that we are going to make it very difficult for humans to survive, and to maintain our current level of culture and technology.

Again, these facts are not in question. No legitimate scientist disagrees with the broad outlines. There are models which show the north polar icecap disappearing in 50 years rather than 5 - but there is no doubt at all that this is the road we are on.

The deniers have some other agenda, something related to the general conservative / Bushian hatred of all things logical and sensible. I haven't figured it out yet, but it is simply one of many places they strive to ignore the scientific method and scientific knowledge. Presumably, arguments dealing with Earth's history won't impress them - we know a great deal about the history of the Earth's climate going back some 3 billion years or so - since most of them are convinced the Earth is only about 6000 years old anyway, and that humans and dinosaurs walked the land simultaneously.

Bradford said...

shrinkers-

You are absolutely correct that the warming is real. I think the further you get from that central supposition the more speculative it gets. Could it be catastrophic? Sure, and we should get away from fossil fuels for any number of very good reasons, but I dont think this should keep you up at night.

shrinkers said...

@Bradford
Could it be catastrophic? Sure, and we should get away from fossil fuels for any number of very good reasons, but I dont think this should keep you up at night.

On the other hand, I do have grandkids, and it is almost certain that, within their lifetimes, it will become catastrophic. Again, the deniers which to soften that - but again, the peer-reviewed scientific consensus is unanimous.

shma said...

Pragmatus

"More than one study has been referred to there (it is generally a compendium of other work, rather than an original source) that have pointed out 18th glacial records in the Alps which document without question that glaciers were disappearing at the time. The Swiss, if nothing else, are extremely methodical."

I'm sure they are, but there is a reason it is called "global" warming. You cannot make inferences about the average global temperature by looking at one regional source. That's why I asked for a link to a paper which confirms your claim. The glacial records in the Swiss Alps don't contain enough information to verify your claim.

"Dyson made his statement for a reason"

Dyson is not a biologist, so whatever reason he has for making his statement, I am sure it is not expertise. Whether plants can increase their CO2 intake and absorb the necessary amount of CO2 is best left to a biologist and not a physicist (specifically a particle physicist) to answer.

"The total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere means nothing to any plant; what matters is the ratio, and 300 parts per million is a very small amount. As an analogy, if the food you ate contained the same ratio of usable nutrition you’d have to eat at least 50,000 pounds a day just to keep alive."

It has been a long time since I studied biology, but my point was that there is a lot of CO2 out there to absorb, and you are not making a coherent case that plants have the biological capacity to absorb more CO2 (see below)


"Plant matter is mostly carbon. You can demonstrate this yourself by heating any green plant in the absence of oxygen until it turns completely black—that’s the amount of carbon present, after the nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen has been driven off. It’s the single most abundant element in plant material."

None of this is remotely relevant to whether plants have the capacity to absorb more CO2. In fact, absolutely everything you said in that paragraph applies to humans as well as most other lifeforms (after the elements that make up water, carbon is the most abundant element in humans). Yet we cannot capture CO2.

"It’s a simple step from that understanding to believing that excess carbon would mean increased flourishing of plants"

If your assumption is that simply more plants will grow, absorb the CO2 and the temperature rise will stop, you are mistaken. There is another ingredient in photosynthesis, and that is sunlight. The net reduction in CO2 from having more plants is offset by the increase in absorbed sunlight. (An actual cost/benefit analysis was done to show this. I will try and find it for you.)

"Yep, there are many other gases with smaller concentrations, but none of them are particularly useful in plant metabolism."

Well, no, my point was just that there are plenty of other gases with smaller concentrations up there, and that 300 ppm is not a particularly small concentration. Scientists in all disciplines routinely see much smaller numbers.

(4096 character limit? What is this, communism?)

shma said...

(part 2)

"So since 1. the typical ice age starts just subsequent to a dramatic increase in temperature and 2. the typical inter-glacial period lasts just about as long as it has been since the last ice age, it is not unreasonable to surmise that the climate is on the cusp of a slide into another ice age."

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting, so I have two answers for you depending on whether you're saying 1) That the current rise in temperatures is evidence of an impending ice age or 2) That, independent of AGW, we are on the cusp of an ice age and that means we can expect one in our lifetimes.

1)These ice age cycles happen over hundreds of thousands of years. The associated temperature changes happen slowly over many thousands of years. The current increase is on a time scale three orders of magnitude shorter (centuries). It is completely unreasonable to suggest that somehow this cycle has sped up by a factor of 1000, and especially unreasonable to suggest as much without an explanation.

2)It is also unreasonable to suggest that, even if we are at the peak right before a natural ice age, that it is coming in the next few decades. Like I said before, these changes happen over thousands of years (look at the time scale), so we should not be worried about blinking and finding the world covered in ice. We will have many centuries to deal with the next ice age.

"And yes, Denmark and Germany certain deserve to be commended, but their impact on CO2 production is teaspoons-full compared to the amounts spewing from countries like India and China (not to mention the US) and all the places in the world that rely on slash-and-burn agriculture."

My point was a 'proof of concept': that when countries are willing to commit to reduce emissions, they can get something accomplished. The US/India/China should not worry about the rest of the world, but work on the problem on their own. I have heard that China is slowly committing itself to lowering emissions independent of any treaty.

P.S. I have no quarrel with you either. I want to make that clear. I'm just trying to understand and maybe correct mistakes in your position.

shma said...

"The net reduction in CO2 from having more plants is offset by the increase in absorbed sunlight. (An actual cost/benefit analysis was done to show this. I will try and find it for you.)"

As promised:

"Our simulations indicate that the magnitude of warming due to global forestation is of the same order of magnitude as the cooling due to carbon-storage effects. This has important policy implications, since incentives for tree plantations in mid- and high-latitudes may, on long timescales, produce the opposite effect to that desired. Whereas cooling due to carbon cycle effects may dominate on the decadal time scale, warming associated with albedo effects may dominate on the century time scale."

Pragmatus said...

shma…

Your link proved my point. I didn’t say that increased absorption of CO2 by plants would have any effect on temperature, rather that there was increased absorption, which is what Dyson’s point was, and mine as well. Many factors may weigh on this to skew the results (such as deforestation) but it is simply true that plants, when exposed to greater levels of carbon than they are accustomed to, take advantage by absorbing more.

Humans don’t manufacture carbon tissue—they get it from what they eat. They eat plants, which do manufacture carbon tissue from the atmosphere, or animals, which eat plants. So your analogy to humans is off base.

You are dead wrong about the amount of time it takes for ice ages to set in. It is decades, not “thousands of years”. Here is data about an even shorter episode, which apparently occurred in the space of one year, but ice ages have never taken “thousands of years” to establish.

Here’s an article containing some of the overall postulations I made.

While I welcome discussion with you, let’s keep in abeyance just what you have “corrected” regarding my thinking, and I will do the same for you.

:o) :o) :o)

Pragmatus said...

shma…

More info on onset of ice ages:

“Though the time at which the Eemian interglacial ended is subject to some uncertainty (it was probably around 110,000 years ago), what does seem evident from the sediment records that cross this boundary is that it was a relatively sudden event and not a gradual slide into colder conditions taking many thousands of years. The recent high-resolution Atlantic sediment record of Adkins et al (1997) suggests that the move from interglacial to much colder-than-present glacial conditions occurred over a period of less than 400 years (with the limitations on the resolution of the sediment record leaving open the possibility that the change was in fact very much more rapid than this).”

Citation from here, which was published in 1997. Recent science has indicated that the onset was even more rapid than the 400 years indicated here, indeed science generally accepts “decades” as the conversion period.

shma said...

"Your link proved my point. I didn’t say that increased absorption of CO2 by plants would have any effect on temperature, rather that there was increased absorption, which is what Dyson’s point was, and mine as well."

Um no, my link did nothing of the sort. In fact it refuted the idea that planting trees could stop global warming. What Dyson claimed, at least the way you put it, was that plants will take care of the CO2 increase on their own through increased absorption (either in their innate ability to absorb more CO2, which he and you offered no evidence for and you still offer no evidence for, or through increased reproduction, which this paper doesn't discuss at all) and that this would stop global temperature increases. What the paper says is that if humans purposely plant more trees to try and offset carbon emissions (certainly not remotely the same thing as plants reproducing more on their own or taking in more CO2 on their own), they will not solve the problem of global warming.


"but it is simply true that plants, when exposed to greater levels of carbon than they are accustomed to, take advantage by absorbing more."

Again, you have not pointed to a shred of scientific evidence that this statement is true. The paper I gave you certainly said nothing of the sort. The paper deals with humans replacing crops with forestation to combat global warming and says nothing at all like your statement above. And it concludes that no matter how many trees you plant, you will not stop global warming with forestation, the exact opposite of your claim.

If you want to convince me that you are correct, you will have to offer a scientific paper, or something more than a plain statement like "I am right and you are wrong"

"Humans don’t manufacture carbon tissue—they get it from what they eat. They eat plants, which do manufacture carbon tissue from the atmosphere, or animals, which eat plants. So your analogy to humans is off base. "

Sorry, you believe that all the carbon in your body is absorbed from the plants you eat?

The carbon in a plant's physical structure does not come from it's absorption of CO2 and the carbon in a human body does not come from eating plants. It is present in every part of our body from the moment we are conceived. It is literally in our DNA (seriously, look up the molecular make up of Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thymine). Sure we take in carbon when we eat, but it's not like if we stopped eating plants all the carbon in our body would disappear. Literally every part of every life form contains carbon. It is the foundation of all organic chemicals. Like I said before, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything we are discussing here.
You are confusing the chemical make-up of plants with the manner in which they sustain themselves (and similarly with humans).

(continued)

shma said...

"You are dead wrong about the amount of time it takes for ice ages to set in. It is decades, not “thousands of years”. Here is data about an even shorter episode, which apparently occurred in the space of one year, but ice ages have never taken “thousands of years” to establish."

That link was to a hundred-word article in Scottish newspaper, not to scientific data. There aren't even any numbers in this tiny article. I have shown you a graph of ice core data (actual data) over the last few ice ages that clearly and vividly demonstrate that these changes take place over thousands of years, and not over the time periods you suggest. Mistakenly, I linked directly to the image and not the page which included the data used to make it. The first link is from a 1999 paper and the second from a 2004 paper, both of which are more recent than the other links you gave me, which seem rely on data at least 12 years old. Now it looks like there is conflicting evidence over how long it takes these ice ages to begin, but even a period of 400 years is not something to start freaking out over (and it is still not decades). Nor is it evidence that this is regular for ice ages. In any case, the ice core data cannot just be ignored.

I will readily admit that my claim that ice age transitions take millennia seems to be debatable, possibly incorrect, but nothing you sent me implies an oncoming ice age takes decades (except that joke of a news piece. Please don't send me such fact-free pages as proof of anything.)

The commondreams article sounds more like the plot of The Day After Tomorrow than anything serious.

What I would like to see from you is a paper, or article in a scholarly journal which includes a temperature graph or chart which documents the claims you made that ice ages arrive in as little as decades. I appreciate this and will explore it further.

Sam said...

Those markets are going to have to get deep fast, or Exxon, Heritage and co will just buy them.

shma said...

Well, after reading that review article is seems I am wrong about how quickly ice ages come along, at least as far as the science ten years ago would say. I still would like to see a reconciliation with current data, however.

I also don't see evidence that the current rise in temperatures is due to anything but a rise in CO2. There certainly doesn't seem to be any indication that the CO2 levels are natural. So I don't know how you can be so confident that the rise in temperature is somehow a natural indication that we are on the cusp of a new ice age.

Michael (mbw) said...

A couple of points:

Yes, there may have been some sudden natural climate changes in the past. There are lot of major extinction events too. The point is that a smart species really shouldn't bring one of these events down on its own head if it's avoidable. This one's avoidable.

On plant CO2 uptake: This particular negative feedback effect is entirely obvious to anyone who has started to think about this issue. Unfortunately the magnitude is not obvious. It's a very active area of experimental/observational research. Some of you guys write as if it's a question to be decided by sitting around and bullshitting, or by quoting Freeman Dyson, of all people. I guess you haven't been following the history of his weird ideas since he helped put together quantum electrodynamics.

shrinkers said...

@Michael (mbw)
Yes, there may have been some sudden natural climate changes in the past. There are lot of major extinction events too. The point is that a smart species really shouldn't bring one of these events down on its own head if it's avoidable. This one's avoidable.

Just wanted to say-


Yes.

Mike in Maryland said...

Bradford said...
You are simply wrong, and acting like your pompous average.

[snip]

Second, yes, I have received grants and seen all the documents. Ever writen a proposal?


As a matter of fact, no I have never written a proposal.

Before you start 'celebrating' a rhetorical victory, though, I've been on the other end of that equation - I've written many governmental contracting documents, been on panels evaluating proposals received in response to governmental Requests for Proposals, created federal government contracts, awarded, and directly and/or indirectly administered such contracts.

When a government agency contracts with anyone else, many times there are discussions with other parties before the contract is awarded. The 'proposal team' of a potential contractor does not necessarily know of many of those other discussions, and many times there are discussions with parties who are not part of the entity to which the contract may be awarded, are done on a confidential basis, and thus (theoretically) not known at all by the potential awardee or any of its personnel.

Bradford said...
Indirect costs are fixed by the university and must be paid by the funding organization, period.

[snip]

They are generally set by a DoD office. . .
.

Wrong on both counts.

Indirect costs MUST be justified and documented. See Federal Acquisition Regulations Part 42.700 and subsequent subparts.

As to indirect rates being set by a DOD office - IF, and ONLY IF the procurement is for DOD, does any DOD office have any say in the procurement. The DOD acquisition regulations are set out in Part 10 of the CFR, while civilian regulations are set out in Part 42 of the CFR. NIH is a civilian agency, therefore the DOD would not be involved in the actual contracting process. Even if NIH were doing a contract for the DOD (in whole or in part), the NIH grant would be conducted under the rules of Part 42 of the CFR, not the (DOD) Part 10 of the CFR.

Bradford said...
I was on a multi-center grant where the NIH funds went to Hopkins - they forced the gov to pay their indirect costs and then sent the money to other institutions and those institutions (at least U of Chicago) made the gov pay their indirect costs too! A complete joke, and a complete waste.

1. Federal contract law specifies that necessary, documented and allowable indirect costs are REQUIRED to be paid. How did JHU 'force' the government to pay indirect costs, if federal law says that indirect costs MUST be paid?

2. JHU can only document it's own indirect costs and no one else's. Thus the University of Chicago billing the federal government for indirect costs is not at all surprising, especially since ONLY the University of Chicago can determine AND document the indirect costs the University of Chicago has.

3. If the grant was for a multi-center study, the total contract cost was determined on a 'Not to Exceed' basis, 'Cost Plus Fixed Price' basis or on a 'Fixed Price' basis. Since it was a grant, it was a Fixed Price, and there was no need for the government to factor in indirect costs, as those would have been factored into the price that JHU requested.

Besides, the federal government, when awarding a contract, deals with one contractor, known as the prime contractor. The prime contractor is responsible for dealing for any additional contractors (known as subcontractors), and only involving the government in certain, limited situations. All billing by the prime contractor AND the subcontractors is through the prime contractor ONLY. Thus if the University of Chicago was billing anyone, the billing was to the prime contractor. The prime contractor then reviews and pays the bill from the subcontractor, then bills the government.

(continued below)

Mike in Maryland said...

(continued from above):

Under the above scenario, the contract was not a grant (if a grant, the total of the contract would be paid up front, then, dependent on how the contract was written, nothing further is done, or a report or some product is delivered), but rather a contract to conduct research on a 'Cost Plus Fixed Price' basis. The 'cost' part of the 'Cost Plus Fixed Price' contract would, by law, require payment of indirect costs, but only as necessary, documented and allowable.


In other words, Stanford's 'providing flowers on a yacht' might be documentable, but the costs of providing those flowers were in what way necessary to the conduct of the research? And by the way, Stanford (and many other recipients of CPFF contracts) went under a very thorough review of it's billing practices when the billing for those flowers became public.

Congrats Bradford on proving yet again that you know a little about a lot, but a lot about almost nothing.

Mike in Maryland

P.S., The 'flowers on a yacht' shows you do not know what you are discussing and/or you are too lazy to research the subject. The flowers were being sent to the University President's house, not to a yacht. Also, funds were illegally being used to refurbish a grand piano. As for the yacht? Stanford was (according to an article in the December 15, 1990 edition of the Spokesman-Review newspaper), "erroneously charging the government for $184,000 in depreciation costs on a 72-foot yacht, several boats and some athletic department equipment at Stanford." (It took me less than one minute on Google to find that reference.)

P.P.S, When writing 'alot', you also demonstrate that you don't know how to spell - the term is written as two words (a lot), not one word. Unless you meant to write allot? But since allot is defined as distributing in an explainable and fair manner, I don't think you meant allot.

David said...

"On plant CO2 uptake: This particular negative feedback effect is entirely obvious to anyone who has started to think about this issue. Unfortunately the magnitude is not obvious. It's a very active area of experimental/observational research."

Hi Michael - I'm trying to figure out why plant uptake of CO2 would be any more than a first order kinetic process. If it were first order, then the rate of uptake would increase proportionally to the concentration, and the time constant for CO2 removal from the atmosphere would be the same regardless of the concentration. Since CO2 is currently accumulating, that time constant would have to be much greater than the release rate, probably on the order of thousands of years. If the kinetics were of a lower order (zero order would be constant uptake regardless of concentration), then removal kinetics would become ever less favorable the higher the concentrations became. Only if the order were greater than one would removal increase geometrically with increasing concentration. That could only happen if the rate limiting step of photosynthesis involved multiple CO2 molecules. But photophosphorylation would seem to be the rate limiting step, and CO2 is only involved in the dark reaction. I'm highly skeptical that vegetation will bail us out of our predicament.

Mike in Maryland said...

Pragmatus said...
♦ Freeman Dyson’s prediction that plants will probably take up much of the excess carbon before it harms the climate is likely correct, although he does not provide proof or even evidence to back his claim up. But it must be remembered that plants flourish (we have a Burmese honeysuckle that grows a foot a day in warm weather with ample water) on the tiniest imaginable concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere—around 300 parts per million. For plants to be able to effectively harvest a resource so skimpy suggests that their capacity for dealing with super elevated levels is, almost certainly, underrated. (Every green living thing on earth has built itself from this incredibly minuscule resource.)

Actually, Pragmatus, Freeman Dyson is only partially correct.

In the February 2005 issue of National Geographic Magazine, an article titled "The Case of the Missing Carbon" was published (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0402/feature5/online_extra.html), documenting part of the search for where some of the excess carbon mankind is pushing into the atmosphere is being hidden.

Part of the article describes an experiment conducted by Duke University, extra CO2 was pumped into/onto a forest to determine the effect.

From the article:
At Duke University's forest in North Carolina, William Schlesinger and his colleagues have been giving hundred-foot-wide (thirty-meter-wide) plots of pines a sniff of the future. Over each plot a ring of towers emits carbon dioxide at just the right rate to keep the concentration in the trees at 565 parts per million, the level the real atmosphere might reach by mid-century. When the experiment started seven years ago [1998], the trees showed an initial pulse of growth.

"These trees woke up to high carbon dioxide and were able to make good with it for a couple of years," says Schlesinger. But then the growth spurt petered out, and the trees' growth has slipped most of the way back to normal. That's not to say that high carbon dioxide didn't have some long-term effects. Poison ivy, for some reason, "is one of the winners," says Schlesinger, with a sustained growth rate 70 percent faster than normal. And allergy sufferers will not be pleased to learn that the carbon dioxide-fertilized pines produced extravagant amounts of pollen
.

Unless you like poison ivy and/or extravagant amounts of pine tree pollen, that avenue of argument doesn't look fruitful.

Mike in Maryland

wv: crackers. Seems appropriate in describing the Global Climate Change deniers and their ridiculous imaginations.

Neal said...

Random points:

- Dyson & carbon-uptake by plants: What I recall from reading & viewing his remarks, was that he was enthusiastic about the idea of genetically modified plants that would incorporate CO2 much more than existing plants. He didn't have any practical clues on how to get started on that, however.

- Carbon uptake by plants: I believe plants can also incorporate carbon in solid form as well. A lot of carbon is locked up in calcium carbonate. So what they have doesn't all come from CO2, I think.

- Next ice age: If we accept that the next ice age will be initiated by Milankovitch cycles, there is no particular concern for tens of thousands of years. And if we get our act together before then, I'm sure we'll find other solutions for that as well. Worst case: We could go back to burning fossil fuels and pump up the CO2. But we don't have to set the thermostat at 100 in summer to avoid freezing in winter, if you catch my analogy.

- The phenomenon of gravity is not an area of current scientific puzzlement: Newton's theory works pretty good for practical purposes, and if matters get extreme, you have to use Einstein's theory. Some people work on attempting to unify all the main physical forces, and then they have some problem with gravity - although there are a few different approaches that people work on. There isn't any real pressure on them, because it's not at all clear how soon anyone will be in any kind of position to put such an explanation to experimental test.

- In general, I would take Dyson's notions with a grain of salt. He did great and outstanding work 60 years ago, but a lot of his ideas since then seem to have been just mavericky: offbeat for the sake of being offbeat. The (much greater) physicist Gell-Mann once remarked, "Some of the British physicists would rather be clever than right." A cruel remark, but I believe it is applicable to quite a few of Dyson's ideas.

Michael (mbw) said...

Many of the remarks here on CO2 plant uptake are right on point.

@David- I don't think the issue is so much non-linearity as a mixture of different time constants. The linear coefficient measured with the current mixture of plants is undoubtedly lower than the longer-term linear coefficient that includes the shifting evolutionary advantage for high-CO2 utilizers. There are also direct effects of T on CO2 uptake, but their net global sign was uncertain, last I heard.

None of this is very likely to avert extremely serious problems in a few decades.

artesys said...

I think you could do a certain amount with such a market, but you'd have to make the markers trends rather than events - like 3 summers hottest on record in a row, or shortening of return periods on major droughts or flood events. Possibly biomarkers as well, like warm-climate species extending their range - pelagic fish species are a good bet there - or increased extinction rates in species with limited ranges and no other extinction drives.