10.30.2009

Toward a General Theory of Democratic Disgruntlement, Part 2

Yesterday, I raised the question of why Democrats approve of the current Democratic-controlled Congress at lower rates than Republicans did when they controlled the Congress. This asymmetry, particularly in the short term, could merely be the byproduct of disappointment with a perceived disconnect between what Democratic voters thought they were voting for in 2006 and 2008, and what they are getting.

Taking a larger view, that asymmetry is quite possibly the function of a broader and even more enduring asymmetry, one rooted in the very foundational ideas that Democrats and Republicans take toward government--and compounded by the demographic differences between the two coalitions.


Pollster Celinda Lake spoke to first, and perhaps most crucial point in her email reply to me. "It’s easier to unify Republicans because mostly they want to stop things. It’s harder to unify people when you want to do things." (emphasis added) Therein lies the broader asymmetry: Doing nothing is a single thing, whereas doing something implies many options. And it is easier to build consensus around a “nothing” menu of 1 than it is for a more variegated menu of limitless options of “something.”

This is, I grant, not a particularly profound observation. Indeed, the idea that the status quo ante enjoys an advantaged position is a core assumption in social choice theories--especially as they apply to American politics, what with its separation of powers and supermajority rules and other constitutional and extra-constitutional rules and strictures designed to slow progress. That reality remains true regardless of the prevailing distribution of political attitudes, their intensity, and so on: It is an ineluctable fact in American politics it’s hard to do something, but even harder to reverse or undo or change course once it’s done. (Need I provide historical evidence on this point as the nation discusses a major policy initiative that has been churning through the public policy hopper for the better part of six decades now?)

Uniquely compounding this problem for Democrats is the nature of their coalition, which is of course more heterogeneous in demographic terms. Pollster Karl Agne: "The other dynamic here, of course, is the relative diversity of Democrats (age, race, region, ideology) and the relatively monolithic nature of the Republican base, as covered in our focus group report*. I think it's a factor as well, but impossible to quantify." (*That report is "The Very Separate World of Conservative Republicans," which I recommend reading.)

OK, so Democrats are tougher to please because they hold more complex and varied designs on the government, compounded by the fact that they are a more heterogeneous coalition. But what does this mean for our understanding of contemporary politics?

Well, for one thing, we ought to be careful not to overstate Democratic disgruntlement and its significance. Given the expectation that the more activist and change-oriented, as well as more demographically heterogeneous party, is therefore more difficult to keep together, it does not necessarily follow that Democrats are therefore enamored with their opponents' ideas about doing nothing. Both parties are trying to herd cats, and the Democratic herd is more prickly. But they remain two different breeds, and moving from one herd to the other is not the logical consequence of the refusal to be easily herded with your own.

And if this is true it means that core disgruntlement among Democrats, because it is artifactually higher, should not be overestimated. It should not be inferred that Democrats are headed for a colossal collapse in a way that the Republicans would if their approval of a Republican-controlled Congress were at the same levels.

Finally, Democratic support may also rebound. "I would fully expect to see Democratic approval rise again once health care reform passes and then, perhaps even more importantly, Congress begins to tackle other aspects of the Obama agenda," Agne predicts. Indeed, if you look at the more current Gallup poll numbers from 2009, as depicted above, sure enough, Democrats' support for their Democratic-controlled Congress seemed to have bounced back to around 50 percent and stabilized for most of this year--until a big dip this month. (Not sure why that drop is so sudden, and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid ought to proceed with caution.) In any case, support has never risen to the 60-to-70 percent levels we saw for Republicans in the middle of this decade. But given the asymmetric nature of the two parties' coalitions and their demands and expectations for government action, the Democrats' cat-bounce (terrible pun, I know) since 2007-08 is not too bad.

74 comments

Bradford said...

Another great post.

Obama's numbers are still nearly identical to the number of people who voted for him, and his numbers seem very stable at that level - that is actually VERY good for him and dems.

PS I use Gallup numbers for approval, they have the most history of collecting them...

NJ_Moderate said...

Why I am getting disillusioned by the Democrats control of Congress? The asinine, piece-of-garbage bill that game out yesterday for "health reform" is a prime example. I doubt that even the Republican party could come out with a bill that bad even if they tried.

I expected so much more from our party and, frankly, they have been more corrupt and more incompetent that the Republican clowns who controlled congress from 2002-2006. Is there anyone who has a clue in DC?

Bradford said...

NJ_mod-

I gotta disagree, the idea that health reform is passing at all is the key, the details matter - but less, as this is just the beginning and the dems know it.

In funny outliers of the day, look at Rasmussen's outlier status on republican party identification - pretty funny! http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php

ETM said...

Obama's popularity now is in the low 50's, about the same, give or take, as his election share. When health care passes, he (and the Democrats as a party) will get a boost of several more points, maybe as high as the high 50's.

No more can be expected. The country is way too polarized (absent a national crisis that causes people to rally 'round the president). Obama will always have at least 75% of Republicans and 35 to 40% of indies against him, so his popularity ceiling is probably about 60%.

Bradford said...

ETM-

True, but the number of people identifying as repubs just keeps dropping, and is the most consistent and important polling phenomena of the fall - the David Gregory's of the world can hammer Obama's stable numbers and ignore this just shows how dumb our press really is:
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php

ETM said...

NJ Moderate, it is better to get 70% of what you want than to insist on 95% and get nothing.

Passing major health care was always going to be a bitch, given the money and power of the medical industry. After all, it has taken us 60 years or more to get to where we are despite the relative popularity of many of these reforms.

Getting a halfway decent bill passed by 2010 is really just a giant first step. It will take years, perhaps decades, to get where we need to be. So let's take that giant step forward now and start the journey.

John said...

I favor a different explanation - as Marty Gilens of Princeton University has shown, politicians of all political parties are much more responsive to the desires of their wealthy constituents. Since the Democratic coalition contains a significantly larger percentage of low income people, we should expect that Democrats will feel more disgruntled with their party because fewer of them are being listened to.

Remember, Dems want to stop plenty of things - the Iraq War, the Bush tax cuts... and both Bush and Reagan created far more programs than they ever ended, so the "republicans want to stop things" meme strikes me as a nonstarter. If that were their primary desire, they'd have been unhappy when republicans controlled the government.

Bart DePalma said...

The disgruntlement of the Dem left is electorally irrelevant in 2010. The Dem Left primarily resides in safe Blue districts, but appear in comparatively small numbers in the swing Red and Purple districts who voted Bush/McCain and for a Blue Dog Dem where the next election will be decided.

A far more interesting and relevant discussion would be about Independent disapproval, which continues to close on the sky high GOP disapproval. The convergence of the Indis and GOP in opposition to what they both see as Dem overreach in expanding government, spending, borrowing and taxes challenges the notion advanced by the Democracy Corps selection of focus groups that the conservative rebellion is somehow limited to the 20% of the electorate that forms the "conservative base" of the GOP.

Ms. Lake's observation is a fancy way for saying we live in a center right country, a majority of whom are suspicious about the expansion of government which is the raison d'etre for the Democrat Party. In order to reach an electoral majority, a percentage of the Dems must run center-right campaigns and are answerable to a center-right electorate, which makes it rather difficult for Dems to assemble a governing majority to expand government. This is your primary Dem heterogeneity.

N said...

I would dispute that Republicans -- particularly Congressional Republicans -- are after the status quo. I agree that this is a widely held perception, and that it seems to follow from a "conservative" ideology, but I don't think it really describes them.

The fact is that the Republican Party has a fairly clear affirmative agenda. At a minimum they want to overturn or severely limit the scope of Great Society and (at least some) New Deal programs. They want to place heavy limits on egalitarian policies intended to deal with gender/race/national origin discrimination. They want to curtail discretionary regulatory authority as much as possible.

None of these are "the status quo." There's a tendency to think of liberal ideas as "new" and conservative ones as "old," but the fact is that Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, affirmative action, and other liberal policies have been the standard baseline of most voters' lives. In these circumstances it's privatization and market experiments that are new (often radically so).

I think your second prong explains far more than your first. They can be unified because their coalition is so intensely single-minded. They actually have a well-defined governing ideology: taxes bad, markets good, the distribution of wealth is determined by "merit" (unless liberals have it, in which case it's "corruption"). In the rare cases where different members of their coalition split, you see them become just as fractious as Dems (See immigration reform).

But it's worth remembering that there's nothing natural about this alignment. The Reps had their own period of intraparty warfare. The difference is that they coalesced around an ideology once Reagan won, and then set about implementing it. The Dems seem to want to go back to first principles with every new option. I think our party would benefit greatly if there was an understanding that "being a Democrat AT LEAST means X, Y, Z" and you had better be willing to defend yourself if you divert from that.

N said...

For what it's worth, I think this is also behind a lot of Democratic frustration with Obama. A lot of core Democrats thought he would be "our Reagan," establishing a new status quo for the party. So his apparently passive style when dealing with the Nelson/Bayh wing of the party has been an unpleasant surprise for many.

NU'69 said...

The answer is that people like me who were Repubs until about 2002, would be ashamed to identify themselves as such now. We are merely conservative independents now. We are thinking people, and therefore, have rejected the Republican label. That's why the Repubs are at 20 percent. That's why Hoffman may win NY23. If you think we'll consider voting for any Dem other than a dedicated Blue Dog , you're delusional. Myself-- Haven't voted since 2002 (when I had to hold my nose to do so).

Bradford said...

NU'69-

That is exactly my point - you have not voted since 2002. The social conservative/fiscal conservative split in the Republican party seems to be growing as can be seen in NY-23, and that is horrendous news for the party.

Bradford said...

My money is still on ?Owens in NY-23, the polls showing the Conservative move are from folks like the Club for Growth!

http://www.pollster.com/polls/ny/09-ny-23-ge.php
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/10/ny-23_poll_owens_hoffman_scozzafava.html

reelgeist said...

Why Democrats have problem with the Democrats in DC?

One word: Plutocrats

Bart DePalma said...

NU'69:

The Tea Party movement is filled with independent conservatives like you. Would I be correct to assume that you would vote for a conservative of any party which matched your views? If so, you might be interested in checking out your local Tea Party group and work to compel the parties to produce candidates for whom you can vote without holding your nose.

If the Tea Party movement gets Doug Hoffman elected without the party apparatus and money in a three way race, I promise you the GOP will be paying attention come 2010.

Craig E. Young said...
This post has been removed by the author.
ETM said...

I think the relevance of who wins NY-23 is the extent to which the wingnut right becomes motivated to start interfering in elections where a moderate, but not a right-wing, Republican can win.

NY-23 leans strongly Republican. Even if Owens wins, he probably will go down in 2010, possible to Hoffman in a 2-way race. So Hoffman winning now is not a problem for the Democrats--but a huge problem for the Republicans since it may escalate their little civil war.

reelgeist said...

And, by the way, this theory- that it is about plutocracy is not a right versus left thing as most of your ideologically obsessed posters seem to think. If you talk to normal, and your posters mostly aren't, people, this becomes apparent. Most people sort of know what's wrong in DC, but come at it from different angles. They know that corporate interests have taken over, but some will call it socialism because they have no frame of reference for corporate interests controlling government. For example, do you really think the conservatives bashing bail outs to big business really understand that it is not socialism, but instead plutocrats looting the system? Ultimately, a lot of Democrats are annoyed with the give aways. They do not like the fact that these give aways are so obviously give aways such as worrying about Wall Street or large corporate interests like big pharma. The third rail is populism. As Glenn Greenwald recently wrote- what is left and what is right is not as clear as people in DC want to pretend. Is being against bail outs left or right? It is really neither. Today, they are reporting that 30 House members are up for ethics review. Is that left or right? Or more likely that Americans are tired of politicians becoming wealthy or wealthier through their positions in government. This is the stuff of banana republics.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

NU'69:

The Tea Party movement is filled with independent conservatives like you.
~~~~~~~~~~


hmm, NU'69 said he hasn't voted since 2002 ... sooo, if the teabagger movement is filled w/folk who don't vote, it ain't a movement, eh.

Too funny!

Attention to detail, BDP!

ETM said...

The tea party movement is not filled with independent-minded conservatives. It is filled with angry, frustrated people who refuse to move beyond ignorance and instead irrationally choose to make as their targets any new or ``liberal'' social, political or economic policies without much consideration as to whether those policies might actually benefit them.

And, of course, they harbor lots of resentment towards anyone different from them culturally, meaning they will never accept a black president with a funny name.

Adam said...

The concept that Republicans "just say no" is oversimplifying things. Republicans of recent years have expanded government in their own ways- they pushed through two large wars, they pushed the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security and they meddled with the tax code significantly. To say the Republican agenda is simply to negate government is amateurish political analysis. They've cost this country trillions in their own right.

cmadler said...

Mr. Schaller's efforts to conceive a "general theory of Democratic disgruntlement" will fail as long as he relies on a single data point (comparison of Republican support for Congress in the period through 2006 with Democratic support for Congress from 2007 to present). What recent Congressional approval polls really show is a broad and steady decline in Congressional approval since a peak in late 2001.

If you are really interested in a comparative study of Democratic and Republican support for Congress, you'll look at it over a much longer time frame, such as the entire post-World War II period. Otherwise, you're trying to draw a general conclusion from a specific event.

Big Mama said...

There's also the factor that temperamentally, Republicans favor authority, discipline, and the whole notion of "one right way of doing things," whereas Democrats favor independent critical thought.

Bradford said...

ETM-

In response to your first post above - NY23 is huge as if the Conservative wins the teaparty movement will become more energized and move the Republican party further to the right. The problem for them will be that they can then only win in very conservative districts like NY23, and will relegate themselves to minority status for years to come.

Could it be that the best thing for Dems would be a Conservative win in NY23?

Gatordad said...

ETM said...
'The tea party movement is not filled with independent-minded conservatives. It is filled with angry, frustrated people who refuse to move beyond ignorance and instead irrationally choose to make as their targets any new or ``liberal'' social, political or economic policies without much consideration as to whether those policies might actually benefit them.

And, of course, they harbor lots of resentment towards anyone different from them culturally, meaning they will never accept a black president with a funny name.'

Wow etm, so you can make a definitive statement about a large and diverse group of people, whereby you label them, pidgeonhole them, and attribute beliefs and behaviours to the entire group, based solely on your opinion of that group. Can you say bigot?

Dwight said...

@Bradford, ETM

They don't care about winning NY-23 next week. That they've apparently submarined Scozzafava is missioned accomplished. Club For Growth candidates have cost the GOP seats many, many times before and they continued to be more emboldened. Although I guess maybe in a sense metaphorical heads will roll if Hoffman does win. Steele will be in a bad position. Gingrich suffers a serious setback (if he was considering running for the Presidential nomination).

On the other hand Palin, and to a lesser extent Pawlenty, are a step closer to pulling of the nomination.

harold said...

Bradford -

Could it be that the best thing for Dems would be a Conservative win in NY23?

It's just incredibly good news that this candidate emerged, no matter who wins.

The wingnuts can't remember, or don't care, that Bush ran as a fake moderate in 2000 in order to grab power.

Now they demand a pure candidate.

What's particularly key is the the third party candidate is differentiated from the Republican mainly on "social" issues - that is to say, homophobia.

If progressives are smart enough not to vote for spoilers and let extreme right candidates get elected with a small proportion of the vote - a big "if" - this could be a very favorable trend.

Jerry Phelps said...

Obama is losing support from his base. And "healthcare passing" won't be key. It's whether we have a public option. Polls consistently show support for public option over bipartisanship. He is not leading on this issue and pushing the moderates to accept a progressive option. Krugman is right, the blue dogs don't know why they against it, because if it is to save the government money, it's a public option that will do it. Rahm spent a lot of time getting these guys elected. it's time to get them in line for important things. I don't buy the argument that they will lose in their home district if they pass a public option. The Rebublicans will demonize them whatever they do, so why not rally their base? The base is what;s going to knock on doors, canvas and make phone calls. If the base isn't energized, they Democrats will see more losses than if we go bipartisan. This is what makes me so crazy!!! I know this is just one issue, but it's the big one right now. And I am close to checking out. BTW, contrariwise, I think the best thing for the democrats will be for the conservative to win in NY - 23, because it will embolden the right to split off.

stark mad jabari said...

@N
Regulatory status quo and societal status quo are not the same things. Conservatives seek to maintain societal status quos. Their opposition to New Deal and Great Society policies, as well as an aversion to social programs, affirmative action or economic redistribution are a part of that effort. I'm not going to argue whether it is wrong or right to maintain the societal status quo.

Gatordad said...

Harold said...
What's particularly key is the the third party candidate is differentiated from the Republican mainly on "social" issues - that is to say, homophobia.



Have to agree with you here. The further right the Reps go on social issues, the bigger the swing to the Dems by 'moderate' or 'Libertarian' voters. The tug of war between the Rs-Ds for the centrist vote has always been determined by how the issues are framed. The more 'social' the issue, the more swing to the left. The more 'fiscal' the issue, the more swing right. So the key for both/either party on almost any issue, is how the debate is framed. Early in the HC debate, the conversation was about the morality of providing/not providing care. And support was higher. Now the debate has become about the dollars, and support has waned somewhat. So the 'winner' in this and most any major legislation, will be the party that frames the debate.

Mule Rider said...

-The tug of war between the Rs-Ds for the centrist vote has always been determined by how the issues are framed. The more 'social' the issue, the more swing to the left. The more 'fiscal' the issue, the more swing right.

I totally agree with this statement, which is why, as someone who is more conservative on ALL issues, I disagree with the notion that this is simply a "center-right country."

It's a center-right country on economic issues and a center-left one on social issues.

George Taylor said...

N said...
For what it's worth, I think this is also behind a lot of Democratic frustration with Obama. A lot of core Democrats thought he would be "our Reagan," establishing a new status quo for the party.

---

In October 1981 I doubt that Reagan had become the incredible political monolith and demigod that conservatives/Republicans now perceive him to be.

I expect rightwingers to hammer Obama because, let's face it, that's their schtick and they know nothing else.

But the incessant whining by some eternally pessimistic progressives to the effect that "OMG Obama has betrayed us!" has grown old. What kind of nut actually thinks that Obama should have completely changed the course of American politics in his first nine months in office?

What has become clear is that certain elements to the left of center lack the brains to understand how American politics works, and the balls to support policies and legislation that may be imperfect, but which represent changes in the correct direction.

If every single bit of legislation has to clear the bar of perfection or else risk complete rejection by these pessimistic progressives, then we are really doomed. That failure meme will bleed over into climate change and financial reform legislation.

The failure of progressivism will be due largely to the significant number of progressives who are unwilling to understand that compromise is a key element in the American political process.

Sweet said...

So now you are on part II of this topic, and yet you have not even considered the possibility that Pelosi, Reid, Rangel, Dodd, and some of the other characters in leadership roles are responsible for the disgruntlement? Or as reelgeist said so succinctly:

plutocrats

Sam said...

Another point I think you've missed is the political heterogeneity of the Democratic congressmen. Rahm Emanuel's 2006 "everybody who will call themselves a Democrat" policy put a lot of people in power who need to seem fiscally conservative — and therefor can't support a public option, despite the fact that it saves money.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing — eight years of GOP "everybody who will call themselves a zealot" has dramatically decreased the number of GOP congressmen.

But because of the huge lag times between voter desires and political representation, the Democrats are at a kink point where, if they were as left wing as a similarly Republican caucus would be, they would be doing whatever they pleased. And since that's what the electorate is used to — 218 + 60 = whatever you want — that's a source of some of the discontent.

anelder said...

John: Seems to me the Republicans want to change anything from the opposition. That they are ready for anything their party puts forth is clear. That seems to go along with the lock step description of their ideology.

I myself fear any concept that remains as is. It’s only with attention paid to wisdom, as expressed throughout history, that we learn and progress toward what we term a greater good. As this wisdom seeps into the consciousness things have to change. The status quo I refer to a time in the past as better. It’s a perception that reflects an ignorance of history. Or maybe is just narrowly focused. My primary example is a relative, in their eighties, who votes for the same party she voted for in her first election, because the opposition was “dirty.” I fail to convince her that back then they were all scalawags.

“Ideological organizations cannot afford rational considerations, and they like to force foot soldiers into “no way out operations” to encourage persistence.”
(quote from Lee Child, fictional author) You never know where a clear and clever observation comes from.

As for not voting, not choosing, standing on the sidelines, well that’s one way of being safe and not responsible. I guess that’s the motivation of the 20 or so who stood by and let the young lady be gang raped. We always have a choice and not making one seems wimpy at best.

Big Mama: said it best
That concept of Daddy knows best (or Mama) is a true giveaway.

GROG said...

I expect rightwingers to hammer Obama because, let's face it, that's their schtick and they know nothing else.

This is what I love about today's Democrat. Democrats hammered and opposed everything Bush did for 8 years. He could have single handedly come up with the cure for cancer, and the left would have bashed him for it.

Now the tables are turned and the liberals are just shocked that conservatives would criticize him. They whine, moan, and the snot flows because Republicans don't support his policies of huge government, insane deficits and disasterous foreign policy.

And the only possible reason Dems can up with to justify why anyone would criticize Obama? Racism. He's black and has a funny name. Great analysis.

EmonOkari said...

his policies of huge government, insane deficits and disasterous foreign policy.

Yer still talking about Bush here...right?

GROG said...

And there we have it. The left wing justification for Obama's failed policies...."Bush did it."

Thanks for the analysis.

Burt said...

And there we have it. The left wing justification for Obama's failed policies...."Bush did it."

The U.S. economy grew 3.5% last quarter, which officially ends the Bush recession, so the objective reality is that the stimulus worked and thus Obama's policies have been successful. So we don't need to justify them.

No, the reason we bring up Bush is to make the point that when you support a guy who runs up huge deficits for eight straight years, you don't get to complain about deficits when someone else takes office. It's really pretty simple.

Gatordad said...

anelder said...
“Ideological organizations cannot afford rational considerations, and they like to force foot soldiers into “no way out operations” to encourage persistence.”
(quote from Lee Child, fictional author) You never know where a clear and clever observation comes from.



Gotta love Reacher!

EmonOkari said...

And there we have it. The left wing justification for Obama's failed policies...."Bush did it."

And there we have it. If you don't think Obama is a failure, you 'must' be 'left-wing'. I personally voted for Bush...twice. I'll spend the rest of my life atoning for it.

GROG said...

Firstly, you can't compare the Bush deficits with the Obama deficits. The Bush ones were bad, but not even in the same universe as Obama's.

Secondly, the only sector of GDP that grew was Government Spending. How was Gov Spending able to grow? Through increased tax revenue?

No. Through increased debt, deficits, and the printing of money. Congratulations.

It's that simple.

Burt said...

And of course, Grog will readily admit that a big part of the reason that Obama's deficits are bigger than Bush's were is because Obama has banned the accounting gimmicks that Bush used to make his deficits look smaller than they actually were, right? I mean, an honest debate requires a full presentation of the facts, and we all know that Grog wants an honest debate, doesn't he?

Mule Rider said...

The U.S. economy grew 3.5% last quarter, which officially ends the Bush recession, so the objective reality is that the stimulus worked and thus Obama's policies have been successful. So we don't need to justify them.


There is no "offical" end to the "Bush recession" yet. The National Bureau of Economic Research determines that. One quarter of positive growth isn't enough to determine it's at an "end" yet, so the jury is still out.

But if you're willing to take that stand and boldly proclaim Obama's policies as "successful" and that the "Bush era" is over since we are recovering, then I hope you're willing to accept everything that happens henceforth as being Obama's success/failure with no more attribution to anything Bush ever said or did.

Now that (as you say) Obama's polices are a "success" and we are done with the "Bush recession," what will you say when we double-dip in late 2011 or 2012 and see double-digit contraction of the economy and unemployment levels return to >10%? That will be all on Obama's shoulders (policies), right? You can't look back at Bush then, right? Not after Obama's present "success," right?

People like you should just STFU with your blind and naive cheerleading. You don't know the difference between cow shit and wild mushrooms, so don't give us your "objective analysis" of how Obama's policies have been "successful" and/or pulled us out of the "Bush recession"....that is unless you're willing to accept every single failure for the next 7 years as 100% completely, unequivocally, indisputably Obama's.

Mule Rider said...

Obama has had about as much to do with economic recovery in this country as I have had with moving rocks on the dark side of the moon.

Burt said...

If you've read any of my comments around here recently, you'll know that I'm no Obama cheerleader. And in fact, with Geitner and Summers in charge of Obama's economic policy, I don't have a lot of confidence for the future. Our economy needs fundamental reform, and those two will never do anything but preserve the status quo.

But, we'll see what happens.

Burt said...

Obama helped pass the stimulus, which is what brought about this economic recovery. So, I give him credit for that. If only he was prepared to do more....

GROG said...

Burt,
I'm not going to defend Bush's deficits. As I said, they were bad.

But at some point liberals will have to stop justifying Obama with "Bush did it".

Dwight said...

GROG said...
Burt,
I'm not going to defend Bush's deficits. As I said, they were bad.

But at some point liberals will have to stop justifying Obama with "Bush did it".


When the economy is no longer a smoldering hole, that is leaving a similar smoldering hole in government revenue, you will have a much better point.

GROG said...

Obama helped pass the stimulus, which is what brought about this economic recovery.

That's a joke. If the stimulus worked we wouldn't have 10% unemployment. We'd be below 8%.

The stimulus has been a catastrophic failure for which this country will be paying for for generations.

George Taylor said...

GROG said....

This is what I love about today's Democrat. Democrats hammered and opposed everything Bush did for 8 years. He could have single handedly come up with the cure for cancer, and the left would have bashed him for it.

---

And this is what I love about today's rightwingers: They just make stuff up.

If Bush had cured cancer, I would have given him props.

If he'd handed over a healthy economy that resulted from his tax cuts, I would have given him props.

Even though I opposed the invasion of Iraq, if the US had invaded, found WMDs, rebuilt the country, and then left after a couple years and "only" a couple hundred billion dollars, I MIGHT even have been able to recognize, on some grand geopolitical scale, that it was a partial success. None of those things happened, making it a raging, bloody failure.

The cute tactic employed by rightwingers these days is preaching to us that eventually Obama will have to stop blaming Bush for the ills America faces ... without they themselves having the balls to admit that Bush IS responsible for the ills America faces.

GROG said...

Dwight,

That's my point from above. There is no economic recovery. GDP grew 3.5% which was comprised completely of Government Spending through debt and the printing press.

Mule Rider said...

Obama helped pass the stimulus, which is what brought about this economic recovery.

If you could get your pea brain to understand more than just "one quarter of positive GDP growth," you'd realize there has been no "economic recovery."

GbThrone said...

Without getting into particular political ideologies, I opine the President's biggest political problem is his apparent lack of expertise in managing political processes. Not only does his first year agenda seem overreaching, but the inability to push his agenda is disheartening to witness. Experienced Democratic political leaders, such as FDR and LBJ benefitted from several years of political and legislative experience. Even JFK enjoyed a decade of congressional experience before his presidential bid. Even Reagan had eight years of dealing with a state legislature that was generally politically hostile. President Obama, while echoing the charisma and freshness of JFK, simply isn't demonstrating the political experience or strength of will to get things done.

esong_98 said...

I agree that the Democrat's approval rating will rise if they can pass health care reform and the economy starts to improve. I disagree with the notion that Republicans are easier to unite because they mostly want to stop things.

Under Republican rule, the GOP Congress and president sought: Tax Cuts (ok they're always popular), war in Iraq and Afghanistan, greater defense spending, more domestic spying and the PATRIOT ACT, and Welfare Reform.

The GOP is united despite great differences between Libertarians, Neocons and Religious Conservatives. The GOP unite because they see themselves as part of a team (in this case the GOP team), while Democrats see themselves as free thinking individuals. When Republicans are together, they stress their similarities, while Democrats tend to stress their differences. I wish everyone were free thinking individuals, but the teamwork concept is the superior political strategy.

Dwight said...

Wait, I thought it was your point that nobody should mention George W. Bush and all the crazy f*@$ed up stuff he did? Because that is intrisic in the why.

Yes, the GDP growth at this point is largely stoked by government spending. We are borrowing forward to keep the implosion from running to completion. Obviously such a policy can only be temporary before VERY BAD things happen.

However borrowing against future revenue isn't nearly the end-of-the-world you'd have us believe, as long as it's largely used to build things that will help with the revenue, and be used by people thus creating real wealth. That's why the $500 billion being spent in the stimus bill was mainly targeted an infrastructure, education (AKA people infrastructure), and the like.

It is risky but less risky than letting the recession run it's course, likely into full on depression.

Burt said...

I'm not going to defend Bush's deficits. As I said, they were bad.

Sure, now that Bush is safely out of office, you'll say yeah, his deficits were bad too. Where were you for the last eight years?

Cheerleading everything Bush did, that's where.

So like I said, you don't get to complain about deficits.

And as for your other comment, sure, just go ahead and ignore the fact that virtually every economist out there will tell you that unemployment is always a lagging indicator in an economic recovery. After all, honest debate is for losers.

GROG said...

Dwight,

My point was not that you can't criticize Bush. Criticize all you want.

My point is this. Don't criticize Bush for something, like say big deficits, and then use Bush's deficits to defend Obama's deficits.

Mule Rider said...

Where were you for the last eight years?

Cheerleading everything Bush did, that's where.

So like I said, you don't get to complain about deficits.


...

(skipping ahead)

...

After all, honest debate is for losers.

And how can you have any kind of honest debate when someone like you makes (projecting and generalized) statements like the above?!! How in the blue hell do you know what GROG, myself, or any other mostly conservative person was doing during the last eight years? I'll tell you one damn thing....I was in college for part of that time period and was more worried about drinking beer and chasing skirt than anything else. But I digress. Again, you don't know what we were doing the last eight years. But we DO know what you're doing now...which is cheerleading Obama like his little bitch. I bet you still think his shit doesn't stink. By the way, yes, we do get to complain about deficits. It's our right as American citizens. And it's our responsibility when so many other people seem so very unconcerned.


And as for your other comment, sure, just go ahead and ignore the fact that virtually every economist out there will tell you that unemployment is always a lagging indicator in an economic recovery.

That's not universally held nor is it symptomatic of every recession/depression/downturn. You're just repeating what's been spoonfed to you, even though you've probably never even had an Econ 101 course.

Here's someone who doesn't think unemployment is a lagging indicator.

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/225427-michael-j-golde/7425-unemployment-is-a-lagging-indicator-not-this-time

Here's another quote I read somewhere:

Unemployment is not a lagging indicator in a consumer economy. Unemployment is a leading indicator. If 70% of your economy is dependent on service and not manufacturing than the less consumers you have, the less consumption that is taking place leading to higher unemployment.

How the hell in an economy where 70% of the work force is based on service can unemployment be a lagging indicator. Less jobs = less consumption = less less jobs, till you reach a point of minimum consumption.

Please stop trying to use economic models for an economy that no longer exists. If this was 1960, I'd agree employment is a lagging indicator. The US economy is not what it was in 1960.

GROG said...

And as for your other comment, sure, just go ahead and ignore the fact that virtually every economist out there will tell you that unemployment is always a lagging indicator in an economic recovery. After all, honest debate is for losers.

Then why did the White House come out and tell the people to expect 10% unemployment to be the norm? If the economy is recovering, then the a lower unemployment rate should lag behind. Right?

GROG said...

Mule,

SAU!

George Taylor said...

"I opine the President's biggest political problem is his apparent lack of expertise in managing political processes."

---

I could not disagree more.

Rightwingers like using the "lack of experience" or "inexperience" accusations to drag Obama's agenda down without ever having to argue against the merits of that agenda. That's just a tactic they use that allows them to continue their reign as the "Party of No!" These rightwingers will protest any Democrat who is in power.

Pessimistic progressives use similar attacks on Obama's strategy in pursuing health care reform, and actually have taken to proposing their own tactics and strategies ... as if Obama and his advisors weren't intelligent enough to plan for the best way to get meaningful reform through Congress, and as if some no-name commenter (whose talents apparently are wasting away on the Internets) had razor-sharp insight into how to pass the perfect bill. These pessimistic progressives will protest any Republican in power, and any Democrat who is insufficiently pure in his/her beliefs.

The notion that a political underdog could run a primary campaign that defeated a popular senator and then a general election campaign that defeated a war hero and not be a good process manager and long-range planner is nuts.

Mule Rider said...

@GROG,

SAU, indeed!

Go MuleRiders!!

whispers said...

@Grog

No, liberals don't oppose things that Bush did solely out of personal hatred. We do so because the things he did were so destructive.

The hypothetical about Bush curing cancer is absurd. Bush not only didn't cure cancer, he froze the NIH budget while dramatically increasing the budget for military adventures.

You would be on better ground if you had argued some hypothetical involving Bush actually winning a war. And not just pretending to have won one already.

Dwight said...

My point is this. Don't criticize Bush for something, like say big deficits, and then use Bush's deficits to defend Obama's deficits.

You clearly misunderstand. His deficits don't make it "alright". It's the policies he spearheaded that ran up debt (more debt payments to make) with poor return of actual wealth (war destroys, not creates), and lead to the extent of cratering of the economy (economy in the dumps -> lower revenue to collect -> higher current account deficit).

It doesn't make running a deficit good. However the net result of his choices is a situation that makes running a deficit in the short term prudent.

Cugel said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Cugel said...

You don't need to invent artificial reasons why the Democratic base is unhappy with Congress. It's simple.

Congressional Democrats are NOT acting like they have a majority. Republicans under Newt Gingrich had a "majority of the majority" rule -- which meant that they would not pass any bill that required Democratic votes to pass -- solely so they could deny Democrats any credit for helping to pass legislation.

Talk about your "bi-partisanship!"

When Arlen Specter DARED suggest (merely suggest) that Bush appoint consensus judges to the S.Ct. rather than ramming them through by threatening to employ the "Nuclear Option" Republicans immediately had a fit and forced him to recant, wear a hair shirt and promise meekly to support every right-wing Thug Bush appointed -- or else he would lose his committee chairmanship. Then they sponsored a primary opponent to run him out of the party.

But, Lieberthug postures on Fox News, openly threatening to filibuster the President's health care initiative and instead of threatening to yank his committee chairmanship and organize primary opponents and drum him out of the party -- in short disciplining the caucus the way Republicans ROUTINELY do, they are folding.

Again.

And it's infuriating to see such weak sisters as Harry Reid coddling these right-wing turn-coats and traitors instead of beating them senseless -- exactly the way Republicans do with their caucus. (Notice that they have already threatened Olympia Snowe with losing her seniority if she dares to vote for ANY Democratic health care bill).

President Obama needed to be front and center from day one on this fight, demanding a public option and threatening to veto any legislation that didn't contain one -- just the way BUSH always did when his tax bills and Medicaid cutting bill of 2006, and war-funding bills were up for votes. And he's been AWOL.

As Churchill once said "I thought we'd landed a tiger and instead it appears we've stranded a beached whale."

What the hell do these "moderates" and "conservi-dems" think? That idiot
Tea-baggers are going to suddenly vote for them if they get rid of the public option?

Doug said...

The fundamental truth is that the Democrats ran on a progressive/centrist platform in the last two election cycles--more conservative members of the party ran--for the most part silently on the issues in that platform--correctly sensing that the tide in the electorate was tending towards an embrace of the positions in that platform. Once elected--or re-elected, as the case may be, they reverting to form. Case in point is Senator Hagan (D-NC) who defeated Elizabeth Dole on a campaign of empty platitudes--with repeated expressions of fealty to solving our problems and working for working families, in a "deficit neutral" way. Whatever that means. In the current debate over health care reform, pinning down her position on the issue has been about as easy as stapling jello to the ceiling.

Mike said...

Nate may be god with stats, but his political analysis leaves a lot to be desired.

Several of the commentors on here suffer from the same problem.

Obviously it hasn't occurred to you that the country likes the party that wants to stop things because the country was founded on the principal of small, limited government, not on the principal of Washington D.C. doing everything for us.

The Republicans were unpopular because they abandoned their principals; the Democrats are unpopular because they insist on interfering in people's lives.

The sad part is that they're all as bad as each other, yet so many people, including most of you on here, are still too blind to see it.

Baah. Baah.

Like lambs to the slaughter.

hypnokink said...

I think it goes back to politics 101, follow the money. Democrats receive a lot of money from big business, health care, insurance just as Republicans do. Democrats also receive support and money from, lets call it Main Street as Obama does, and very vocal support from progressive interests. There's no way to satisfy all three interests, yet they don't feel they can be realistically elected without the money from big business and other status quo interests.
The calculus is usually that main street and the progressives have nowhere else to go, and so can be satisfied with very little. Which we are given, in abundance.

mikesbodypolitic said...

I think what the opinion of americans about congress is a Rorschach test about how americans feel about their government in general and their party in general. So the republicans tend to come from a more paternalistic faith based background, so that when they believe in something it's more likely to be a complete faith in it, where democrats are more likely to have a cynical view, supporting the lesser of two evils, but still feeling that what they are supporting is still itself an evil group.

Republicans also tend to be able to keep their promises more, since they promote the ideas that the wealthy elite support, so that when repubs win they're more than happy to keep their promises. (they get more contributions from elites and don't look as two-faced)

Dems on the other hand are always selling universal opportunity, fairness, democracy, and accountability of people in power. Elites generally couldn't be more opposed to the television ads dems tend to run, and so when it comes down to who really pulls the strings, dems join with their elite brothers and sisters and shaft the american majority just like republicans do, but they look that much worse for lying about it when they do.

Paul said...

Mule Rider: How in the blue hell do you know what GROG, myself, or any other mostly conservative person was doing during the last eight years?

We know what we know about you guys owing to your voluminous postings on this blog.

azeeck77-tx said...

To "N" at 9:32... You said:
The fact is that the Republican Party has a fairly clear affirmative agenda. At a minimum they want to overturn or severely limit the scope of Great Society and (at least some) New Deal programs. They want to place heavy limits on egalitarian policies intended to deal with gender/race/national origin discrimination. They want to curtail discretionary regulatory authority as much as possible.

If it is an "affirmative" agenda, why did you use the following verbs: overturn, severly limit, place heavy limits, curtail...

Sounds a lot like they want to "stop" things, which is exactly the point Tom was making.

Interesting.

neroden@gmail said...

GROG: "That's a joke. If the stimulus worked we wouldn't have 10% unemployment. We'd be below 8%."

Wrong. Read Krugman or any other serious economist -- read their columns *before* the stimulus passed.

Summary: if the stimulus hadn't worked, we'd have had 12% unemployment. Or higher. But the stimulus was not large enough (both Obama's fault and the Congressional Republicans' fault), and it was misdirected due to interference by Olympia Snowe (silly tax cuts = low stimulus; payments to states so they didn't have to make more cuts = high stimulus effects -- so she cut payments to states and increased tax cuts....)

This *exact result* was predicted *in advance* by all the competent (i.e. "liberal") economists. The stimulus kept us out of free-fall, but should have been at least twice as large to *really* get us back on track.