10.29.2009

Toward a General Theory of Democratic Disgruntlement, Part I

How come Democrats don't like a Democratically-controlled Congress as much as Republicans do when they control Congress? I hadn't realized this was even a phenomenon, nor whether it matters. But then, while doing some other research, I stumbled upon this little graph of results from Gallup:


If you look at the trend lines, the Congress was more popular when the Republicans were the majority in the first six years of this decade. That might seem surprising enough. But if you look closer, it's clear that Republican support prior to 2007 was higher than Democratic support after the takeover. What's going on here? To wit, a few possible theories to consider:

1. It's the economy, stupid. It could just be that the state of the economy and Americans' anxieties about their economic situation is dragging down the Democratic numbers. But that explanation fails to account for two things. First, the Republicans historically tend to receive lower approval numbers in the "whom do you trust to handle the economy?" polling questions. A year into control of Congress, with George Bush still president, Democrats were more trusted to handle the economy, according to Gallup. But now, at least according to Rasmussen, and since this past summer, Republicans are. And second, and relatedly, it would be one thing if Congressional numbers tanked post-black September (2008), but the Democratic-controlled 110th Congress didn't have much better numbers prior to that.

2. It's the pan-ideological populist revolt. You know, if the social issue divide between working-class conservatives and working-class liberals in this country is ever healed, the business and political elites had better watch out. The anger and disappointment that greeted the Bush Administration's bailout, followed by the Obama Administration's giant stimulus package, is palpable. And because both those decisions were approved, respectively, by the 110th and 111th Democratic Congresses, Democrats are suffering accordingly.

3. Democrats didn't get the Congress they thought they voted for. I checked in with several pollsters to solicit their explanations for this phenomenon. Republican pollster Neil Newhouse's answer seems plausible enough: "It's clear that since Democrats took back Congress a few years ago, their partisans have been anxious for their newfound majority to flex its muscles and exert their will. But, reality has set in. And, that's clearly frustrated the Democratic rank-and-file across the country. Current data showing strong disapproval of the Democratic-led Congress by rank-and-file Democrats could be given voice as follows: I realize that when Democrats first took control of Congress, Bush was still President, and Congress, even though dominated by Democratic partisans, had their hands tied. But now, with Obama as president and increased majorities in Congress, you're still not getting stuff done that I care about? And, when are you guys (expletive deleted) gonna focus on what we need most—jobs! You wanted complete control, and that's what you finally have. And this is what we get?!

Democratic pollster Karl Agne echoed this sentiment. "During the first years of the GOP Congress, Republicans were primarily motivated by opposition to Clinton, which the GOP Congress delivered consistently. Then, during the (almost uninterrupted) six years of a Bush White House and GOP Congress, you could count on one hand the instances of dissonance between them. The GOP Congress marched in lockstep and gave Bush (and the GOP base) pretty much everything asked of them. It was DeLay's classic 'majority of the majority' approach, executed very efficiently," he wrote to me by email. "Democrats, on the other hand, have yet to see much of the change they voted for in '06 and '08. Opposition to Bush got Democratic support up some, but the complete sense of paralysis in '07 and '08 and attitudes about the direction of the country limited how high their support would go."

The Newhouse-Agne take is a solid situational explanation for the asymmetry in partisan support by Republicans and Democrats for their respective majorities over the past decade or so. But is there something more systematic at work here?

I'll tackle that question in a follow-up post.

113 comments

Robert said...

It's number 3. Newhouse's comment sums it up as far as I am concerned, but I wouldn't have deleted the expletive. Sometimes they're appropriate.

ETM said...

I think one plausible explanation is expectation. We Democrats expect our representatives to propose and enact comprehensive legislation to cope with societal problems and improve the general welfare. We care about getting it right.

The Republican base hates the federal government (except for the military) and generally wants to throw a monkey wrench into its workings whenever possible.

Since it is easier to wreck something rather than build or improve it, Republicans have a shorter, quicker path to making their base happy.

Bradford said...

Great analysis, and good point - I think it is just that Dems are thoughtful people who dont follow the party line in lockstep, thus many will be happy or unhappy dependent on actual work done in Congress. Republican on the other hand do have a significant number of Glenn Beck's zombies (yes, Beck has called his followers zombies) who will follow the party to their own detriment, because...well...I will withhold judgement.

juvanya said...

Tom,
The 112th Congress does not meet for another 14 months. I am starting to side with the people here that despise you.

Garrett said...

Interesting analysis.

Something else that may help account for it would be social conservatives and their authoritarian tendencies that make them trust people in power moreso than others. I just started reading a book about this topic yesterday, and the graph in this post made me think of it immediately. http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ for a free copy of the guy's book. (He even mentions 538.com)

Snarfster said...

Another great piece..keep up the good work.

How about #4...Dems are worst pol party in history except for all the others. These folks would mess up a one car funeral.

Tip #1... follow Grayson's lead
Tip #2... act like your party won the trifecta in the election
Tip #3... study the Repubs playbook and use it
Tip #4... see tip #2

Jamie said...

I think it's actually 4. Democrats are not a monolithic interest group, but rather a cobbled together collection of smaller interest groups. The Republican party primarily represents white, wealthy, conservative Christians. Not hard to please that group, as they pretty much agree what they want: low taxes, "family values", free markets. But Democratic interest groups often have irreconcilable differences (see unions vs. environmentalists on climate change, black church leaders vs. gay rights groups on marriage, etc.). No Congress could please the entire Democratic party, as pleasing some Democrats inevitably leads to pissing off the rest.

Bradford said...

Jamie-

That is also true of Repubs. The repubs are a disparate mix of social conservatives, gun rights nuts, anti-abortion nuts, pro-military crazies, and fiscal conservatives. They should get along worse than we do, but they all fall into lockstep like zombies...

Ben said...

I imagine internal divisions in the Democratic party really account for a lot of its inability to make unified forward progress on legislative issues.

Recent polls (http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/conservatives-single-largest-ideological-group.aspx) indicate that there are THREE, not two, easily distinguished ideologies in American politics. But there are only two parties.

Think about the Political Compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis). There are four real possibilities: Liberal on social and economic issues, conservative on both, liberal/conservative, and conservative/liberal.

That 20% "liberal" group falls into the liberal-liberal category. The "conservative" group falls into the conservative-conservative category. And the "moderate" group is liberal on social issues and conservative on economic ones (because almost nobody is the other way around).

Moderates tend to side with Democrats because social issues often matter more to them. They're not wealthy. They have gay friends. They are poor. Etc.

Hence you have a winning Democratic coalition, but no way for the two factions to express their differences - they have to elect a single President, make unified legislative proposals, etc. And because the differences on fiscal matters can run so deep (think Blue Dogs vs. the public option)... paying for things is hard.

What we really need is a system that can encourage multiple parties to form coalition governments, like just about every other country in the world. Yes, they still fight there, but because there's a real chance of changing the outcome of votes based on careful negotiation, it's not nearly so petty.

Stewart said...

I always enjoy Tom's efforts to find any "data" to validate his hope and prayers that the nopublicans are gaining momentum and power. Tom, they are a dwindling few and you know that.

Find whatever graphs you want and then refer to Rasmussen if it makes you feel better. Obama has been in office for 10 months fighting the nopublicans and you expect sweeping change already? Give me a break.

Obliterati said...

Beware the Big Tent.

Democrats won a super-majority. Yay! But now it's the Nelsons and Landrieus and Conrads and Baucuses and Pryors, who are all basically Rockefeller Republicans, that are the fulcrum.

That's a tough pill for a Democratic voter to swallow - you go to all the effort to elect Democrats to Congress, then you watch all the progress get sucked away to keep a very, very few people happy...people who, by the way, seem to have views far different from the mainstream Democratic voter.

That's the price you pay for 60 seats, I guess...but it's not going to inspire people to give Congress high approval ratings.

LAW said...

My explanation is that governing as a Democrat is harder by definition.

The Republican philosophy, at its roots, is that government is bad and should do as little as possible.

The Democratic philosophy is that a strong government is needed to provide a number of essential social services.

On that note, Republicans don't need to do much of anything to appease their partisans, and if they try they have just as many problems as Democrats. Sure enough, in the course of that 6 year period there is one real sweeping change that Republicans attempted. It was Social Security reform, and it crashed and burned.

On the other hand, to make Democrats happy Obama's administration needs to create Universal Health Care, allow gays in the military, create a Cap and Trade system, etc etc. Compare this to the expectations placed on Republicans - cut taxes and don't introduce more government. Which is easier to accomplish?

ETM said...

I think Bradford is right about the Reps being as disparate as the Dems. However, wealthy Reps who are socially liberal or moderate and secular indulge the zany right-wing zealots on social issues because they are insulated enough by money not to worry as much about public policy on issues like abortion, gay right, availability of contraceptives, drug issues, public schools. The rich generally have access to anything and everything they want.

Tony C. said...

As a life-long liberal Democrat that has voted in every election since Nixon resigned:

Number 3, dammit all to hell. What the hell does it take? Republicans force crap down our throats repeatedly and with great glee regardless of whether we are in power or not, and here we are once again trying to play nice. I'd like to see some damn liberal muscle flexed for once. Throw Liebermann out of the Democratic caucus, to start, and do your damndest to end his career. I'd rather get nothing than keep eating shit sandwiches.

DanAtCA said...

Here is the thing, Democrats decided they wanted a big house. The Republicans want an ideologically pure house. The problems the Democrats are having is due to the fact that they wanted to bring in more people. Thus, a wider range of opinions than the Republicans have to deal with. Democrats could try to get rid of the none pure ideological Democrats (AKA conservative Democrats), but then they would lose the super majority in the Senate and some seats in the House.

Allowing for dissent and differing opinions in the party is how the Democrats managed to take over control of the House and Senate. I think it was a good strategy, but it has the cost of being hard to please the base. Was it worth the cost? We will have to see.

joel said...

I think it's more the senates fault but the democrats control all of govt and can't get much done. They act like the are cowering in the corner afraid to offend the republicans especially in the senate. They need to get a backbonem Reid should just say screw you, push through what he can on health care using reconciliation and move on.
Any bill without a public option isn't worth passing.

Burt said...

Let's face it - if the Democrats don't start offering meaningful alternatives to the status quo instead of their current approach (a tweak here, a band-aid there), they risk losing in 2010, and losing big.

The people voted for change, and so far, they've gotten a lot more of the same with some minor tinkering around the edges.

FDR did not offer tweaks and band-aids. That's what kept him winning huge victories.

Sacto Joe said...

How about "None of the above".

The Right Wing Propaganda Machine (RWPM) is still vastly underrated by the Democrats. A a big chunk of my fellow liberals are left wingnuts who have their heads up their behinds almost as far as the right wingnuts.

The difference is that there is not much of a Left Wing Propaganda Machine, and so the RWPM can manipulate both sets of wingnuts pretty much without interference to accomplish their goals.

And right now the goal is DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

Tony said...

It's definitely #3. I didn't get the change I voted for from the party whose candidates and PACs I supported with a great deal of my own money. I won't give the Democratic Party another dime until:

1) they pass a robust public option
2) they repeal DOMA
3) they repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell
4) they repeal telecommunications immunity

I'm tired of asking the Democrats who call me asking for more money when they are going to realize that WE WON.

Bart DePalma said...

Reasons 2 and 3 are definitely tanking the approval of Congress. We libertarians and conservatives are furious with what the far left Dem leadership has already enacted and is debating and the liberals here are pissed because the centrist Congress critters they ran to win in Red districts and states will not govern left as good Dems.

You might want to check the Gallup congressional approval figures in the 70s and early 80s to find a comparable economic effect on approval.

Mae Cooper said...

The change that Obama proposed far outstrips anything FDR tried. Yes, his ideas of change and government stimulus were revolutionary at the time, but actually, his implementation was rather conservative, one of the reasons that economist believe that the Great Depression lasted so long. Obama campaigned on change, but the reality of current needs for employment is cutting away at his ability to enact truly revolutionary solutions. After the housing bubble burst, Americans are not feeling too cozy with risk.

Gil said...

It's #2, at least for me. Beginning to understand that the Democratic Party represents the corporatist agenda - as did the Republican Party before it. When do the interests of the little guy get as much (or ideally more) weight than the interests of Goldman Sachs?

harold said...

Burt -

You say you're not secretly shilling for the GOP, but you keep making comments that distort reality in a way that favors the GOP.

Let's face it - if the Democrats don't start offering meaningful alternatives to the status quo instead of their current approach (a tweak here, a band-aid there), they risk losing in 2010, and losing big.

No. They do risk losing some seats, because of the economy and the fact that they hold many of the most divided districts right now.

It's very simple. Most of the current dissatisfaction with the Democrats is because they are not different enough from the Republicans.

If I am unhappy with my air freshener because it smells too much like excrement, I am most certainly not going to replace it with actual excrement. And there are only going to be two choices.

Apologies for the coarse analogy. But for some reason, I am having trouble making this logic clear. Perhaps this analogy will finally get the point across.

The people voted for change, and so far, they've gotten a lot more of the same with some minor tinkering around the edges.

Right, we are getting less change than we want. Again, that does not mean that we are going to go back to the original.

FDR did not offer tweaks and band-aids. That's what kept him winning huge victories.

This is true. FDR was a great man, who lived in different times.

Now, I get the idea of "throwing out the Democrats so that they will try harder next time". But it doesn't work that way. The Republicans do too much harm, much of which is difficult to subsequently reverse.

Basically, I'm dissatisfied with the Democrats and want them to be more progressive, but the one thing I rule out as a mechanism for achieving that is doing anything that gives power back to the current Republicans.

harold said...

Bart de Palma -

I don't believe that you're a libertarian.

I think you just use that word in an effort to sound more respectable.

Prove me wrong.

Show me a record of you objecting to the degradation of fundamental liberties under the Bush-Cheney administration.

Bart DePalma said...

harold:

What degredation of fundamental American liberties do you allege Mr. Bush caused? Remember, foreign wartime enemies enjoy no fundamental American liberties.

Robert said...

When do the interests of the little guy get as much (or ideally more) weight than the interests of Goldman Sachs?

When the little guy has as much money to throw at congress with contributions and lobbyists (IOW, never).

Yes, we technically have a democratic republic, where we elect our representatives, and they're supposed to represent our views. However, in practice, an individual's or a group's views are weighted by the amount of money they can spend to push them on various legislators. So those with more money will always have a bigger say than those with less or none. Still better than a monarchy at least, I guess.

Bart DePalma said...

Speaking of Reason 2, the kos poll essentially confirms the conservative polling showing the Hoffman surge:

A forthcoming DailyKos/Research 2000 poll will confirm that Dede Scozzafava (R) has lost ground in New York's 23rd congressional district and that Bill Owens (D) and Doug Hoffman (C) are now running "neck and neck."

Owens leads Hoffman by just one point, 33% to 32%, followed by Scozzafava at 21%.


http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/10/29/very_tight_in_ny-23.html

Compare this to the kos polling last week: Owens 35, Scozzafava 30, Hoffman 23.

Hoffman +9

Owens -2

Scozzafava -9

This is an enormous 1 week shift in a likely voter model which leans Dem.

If this trend keeps up through the weekend, Hoffman wins comfortably.

EmonOkari said...

Any bill without a public option isn't worth passing.

I do have to disagree. Many Americans being denied coverage right now and/or are being arbitrarily dropped...they need our help. Strong consumer protections, new coverage guarantees, pre-existing condition guarantees, and insurance exchanges to negotiate costs...I firmly believe these ARE better than the current status quo. And ARE worth passing in and of themselves (even without a publicly-run insurance program).

I have a difficult time sticking the 'all or nothing' game plan. Lets not fail to pound out the First-Down, because we we became obsessed on completing the 30-yard pass.

jay said...

I don't think most Republican voter's got what they wanted, only the wealthy ones did. The number 1 issue for most people that voted for Bush was the abortion issue and the Republican party delivered nothing on that because they wanted to keep that issue alive so they could use it again and again to sucker the Right to Life voters. The only ones that got what they wanted were the very wealthy Republicans that paid to play, if they donated big they got their legislation passed, everyone got excuses and platitudes.

djones said...

I believe the explanation is largely statistical. The percentage scale is bounded, with a floor below which approval ratings cannot go (zero). At values near the middle of the scale (40%-60%) it is possible to have greater variation in approval across groups, but near the upper and lower bounds of the scale group differences will necessarily be more compressed. Currently, aggregate approval of Congress is at its historic low point (likely owing to idea #1, the economy). Therefore, differences between the party's opinions appear smaller.

For those interested in the topic of congressional approval, check out a new book my coauthor and I wrote: Americans, Congress, and Democratic Responsiveness: Public Evaluations of Congress and Electoral Consequences (University of Michigan Press, 2009).

harold said...

Bart de Palma -

What degredation of fundamental American liberties do you allege Mr. Bush caused? Remember, foreign wartime enemies enjoy no fundamental American liberties.

Thank you for proving my point.

Stewart said...

Listening to Ed Schultz right now and as a true Dem, leftwingers like him make me sick. To me he is as bad as any right winger.

They would rather bitch and complain then realize that you get what you can. When the nopublicans are unanimous in their hatred of anything the Dems want then you accept that reality

What is amazing is that these left wing loonies are willing to let the nopubs come back to power because they are just so angry and righteous. Fricking amazing.

I wonder how much more they'll piss and moan then?

Steve said...

Approval of congress, regardless of political affiliation, jumped up after 9/11. The chart clearly shows this. But as disillusionment set in among independents and democrats, republicans remained in their nationalistic fervor. Their approval of congress dropped off more slowly because they identified backing Bush and congress with patriotism and disagreeing with Bush and congress as anti-americanism. There's no other secret, mysterious reason that their approval rating was so high at this time.

Bart DePalma said...

harold said...

Bart de Palma - What degredation of fundamental American liberties do you allege Mr. Bush caused? Remember, foreign wartime enemies enjoy no fundamental American liberties.

Thank you for proving my point.


Your point is that libertarians support extending American constitutional rights to foreign enemy combatants? That would be a new one to libertarians not to mention the Founders.

gdb said...

it's #3 above -- with the caveat that BO has given little leadership and house or Senate is often advocated more progressive than BO. we got more of the congress (at least the House) we voted for than we got the executive we voted for. The progressive base never pushed hard about BO's stimulus package that was better than GWB would have proposed, but not good enough to really solve the problem. BO never pushed for an adequate package. Ditto for health care. It has become distressingly obvious that BO's highest goal is to find common ground/bipartisanship. If that means bad or incoherent policy, so be it. Policy-wise for the times, BO is better than GWB -- and Chamberlain than Mussolini or Millard Fillmore than John C Calhoun. But critical times call for great leaders more willing to spend political capital and take more risks to try to reach greater goals than BO has so far exhibited. America's problems of a stagnant economy, extreme inequality of income distribution, health care costs and availability, quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan are NOT going to go away by themselves -- or likely to be solved by any of BO's policies to date.

Tony C. said...

@EmonOkari:

The problem with half a loaf is that it is a slippery slope. It is never really half of the loaf, it is a tenth. Then a tenth of a tenth, a thin slice, then a few crumbs. We never get the actual liberal policies we want, because we are always focused on some short term benefit, like drug addicts that ignore their health because they want to satisfy their current craving.

More lives will be saved in the long run if we sacrifice NOW and insist upon an all-or-nothing solution. We may well get nothing in terms of policy, but by proving we are willing to walk away from the table and reject the pathetic deal being offered, we gain strength for the second attack on the selfishness and blatant corruption that is ruling Washington. We need to change the game or we never win, and the attitude that we just take the crumbs from the table when the public overwhelmingly supports an immediate and robust public option available to all Americans is self-defeating. You are letting yourself be ripped off, sacrificing future adults and citizens in the name of short-term gain.

harold said...

Bart de Palma -

Your point is that libertarians support extending American constitutional rights to foreign enemy combatants?

Of course not. That's not even as good a of wrong argument as I expected from you.

Warrantless wiretaps. Declaring US citizens on US territory to be "enemy combatants". Support for a flag burning amendment. Excessive government secrecy. Association with "unitary executive" claims. All things that are directly in opposition to libertarian principles.

That's pretending that libertarians only care about domestic issues. But they don't. Libertarians ostensibly oppose useless war and respect the autonomy of independent states.

Libertarians ostensibly oppose massive government spending as well. No matter who is doing it.

The hypocrisy of plain old fashioned right wing authoritarians calling themselves "libertarian" is tiresome.

I'm sorry that you're ashamed, at some level, to even say the proper name that applies to your actual positions.

You can't be a Bush apologist and a libertarian at the same time, anymore than someone can be a Mussolini supporter and a "liberal" at the same time. They don't go together.

You made your choice, and you chose what GWB represented, not libertarianism, so why don't you just admit it?

Peter Wolf said...

@BdP

suspension of habeas corpus, invasion of privacy. Both of which are fundamental American liberties I believe. That's without getting into torture and kidnapping....

jsolid said...

it has to do with the nature of what it means to be a democrat or a republican. (for the purposes of this comment, i will equate liberal with democrat, and conservative with republican, which isnt technically correct, but here its close enough.) a number of studies have shown strong correlations between psychological factors and party alignment. for example:

"Across dozens of behavioral studies, conservatives
have been found to be more structured and persistent in their
judgments and approaches to decision-making, as indicated by higher average scores on psychological measures of personal needs for order, structure and closure. Liberals, by contrast, report higher tolerance of
ambiguity and complexity, and greater openness to new experiences on psychological measures."
"Behavioral research suggests that psychological differences between
conservatives and liberals map onto the widely-studied self-regulatory
process of conflict monitoring4. Conflict monitoring is a general
mechanism for detecting when one's habitual response tendency is
mismatched with responses required by the current situation."
"This association suggests that a more conservative orientation is related to greater persistence in a habitual response pattern, despite signals that this response pattern should change"
"Stronger conservatism (versus liberalism) was associated with less neurocognitive sensitivity to response conflicts. At the behavioral level, conservatives were also more likely to make errors of commission." [from Amodio et al. (2007) Neurocognitive correlates of liberalism and conservatism (appeared in Nature)

so: liberals can tolerate complex ideas better than conservatives. also, conservatives go along with what is presented more than liberals.
thus for conservatives, a higher need for order and higher rate of "going along" makes them more compliant followers.

jsolid said...

follow-up:
here's a quick discussion of the finding on Slate (scroll down): http://www.slate.com/id/2173643/

Bart DePalma said...

harold said...

Bart de Palma - Your point is that libertarians support extending American constitutional rights to foreign enemy combatants?

Warrantless wiretaps.


You are welcome to offer any evidence that you have of warrantless wiretaps of innocent American citizens. Under the Truong line of federal cases, the 4th Amendment does require a warrant for intelligence gathering against foreign agents, even if they are American citizens.

Declaring US citizens on US territory to be "enemy combatants".

Nothing in the Constitution prohibits holding an American enemy combatant as a prisoner of war. See the Civil War and WWII.

Support for a flag burning amendment.

Support is not an actual degradation of American fundamental liberties. BTW, I would oppose such an amendment.

Excessive government secrecy.

Where does the Constitution guarantee you access to classified military or intelligence gathering information?

Association with "unitary executive" claims.

The unitary executive theory (as opposed to its many bastardizations in the press) is simply that Article II expressly vests all executive authority in the President and thus Congress may not authorize subordinates to the President to exercise executive authority. See special prosecutors.

That's pretending that libertarians only care about domestic issues. But they don't. Libertarians ostensibly oppose useless war and respect the autonomy of independent states.

You are absolutely correct and have identified my one major disagreement with the libertarians. I believe in a muscular foreign policy because there is no real international law apart from those with the arms make the law. The libertarian belief in isolationism simply does not work and has rarely been used in US history. This is why I generally refer to myself as either a libertarian conservative or a classical liberal.

Libertarians ostensibly oppose massive government spending as well. No matter who is doing it.

Perhaps you missed a couple dozen of my posts here taking the GOP to task for its profligate spending.

You can't be a Bush apologist and a libertarian at the same time...

Agreed. That is why I am not the former. I opposed nearly all of Bush's domestic agenda apart from the tax cuts.

taw said...

I see why Democrats are angry at Democratic Congress and President not doing what they want. But Bush and Republican Congress really didn't do much for Republicans!

They did not scale down federal government.
They did not scale down federal regulations on business.
They did not even the budget.
They did not lower taxes significantly for most Republican voters.
They did not cause economic boom.
They did not ban abortion.
They did not pass any more limits on gay right.
They did not do much to support religious institutions and religious schools.
They did not even ban stem cell research, just limited federal funding for them somewhat.
I could go on with that.

They were basically doing exactly what Democrats are doing now. And yet they made Republican voter base happy.

The question is not why Democrats are unhappy now, but how why Republicans were happy in spite of receiving essentially identical mistreatment from their politicians?

I hope you address this problem in your future posts.

Sweet said...

How about Reason #4 -- Pelosi, Reid, Rangel, Dodd, and a few other "interesting" characters who have been promoted to leadership positions?

Or perhaps Reason #5 -- the way the new leadership is doing business, which not only freezes out the GOP, but also other Democrats?

Bart DePalma said...

Peter Wolf said...

@BdP suspension of habeas corpus, invasion of privacy. Both of which are fundamental American liberties I believe. That's without getting into torture and kidnapping....

One cannot suspend a habeas corpus right that foreign enemy combatants never enjoyed over the past 700 years of Anglo American history until the awful Boumediene case invented it out of whole cloth.

Likewise, one cannot invade the privacy rights of foreign enemy combatants when they have none under the Constitution or the law of war.

Delorian said...

"And the "moderate" group is liberal on social issues and conservative on economic ones (because almost nobody is the other way around)."

I would describe the Catholic Church (and those who support their positions) as conservative on social issues and liberal on economic issues. I am a Catholic, and I would describe myself this way on many issues (I would support the health care legislation if the proposed amendments to prohibit public funding of abortion were included).

esong_98 said...

From our point of view, Republicans are zombies walking in lock step with each other. On the other hand, this strategy gives them a big advantage to move the country toward the direction they want. From their point of view, Democrats are selfish individuals who are unwilling to make sacrifices for the good of the group (party).

Moreover, Democrats tend to worry too much about fairness. For the first time in history, in 1993, Republican senators decided to fillibuster every Democratic sponsored bill. The progressive agenda collapsed and the biggest Clinton legislative victories ended up being NAFTA and Welfare Reform, which were conservative reforms. Then when Bush won the White House, Republicans used reconciliation to prevent Democrats from fillibustering everything. But now that Obama is president, the Democrats want to be fair and refuse to use reconciliation even if it means that their agenda goes down in flames. Finally, Republicans are better bargainers than Democrats precisely because they don't worry about being fair. All of this causes Democrats to become frustrated.

Dopper said...

Democrats are just starting to make use of "primaries" to enforce discipline the way Republicans have been doing this for 20 years. Look at the difference in actions between the two parties leaders and the "ideological" pundits comments in the NY-23 v. Lieberman 2006.

Lieberman was supported by "liberal" pundits to a huge degree there was much Poo-pooing of primarying against him. Chris Matthews, The New Republic, Joe Klein, etc predicted this was the Gotterdamerung of the party. Look at how Dems still bend over for this guy, can you see the GOP doing this? Not a chance!

On the other hand all the GOP and Conservative leaders are actually supporting a 3rd party candidate in New York, even over their own party!

The GOP let's it's members know WE (the party) may lose the seat with a primary, but YOU will definitely lose your seat so play ball OUR way. Even guys like CAO in LA aren't crossing over even though his voting record is suicidal!

Now I don't want to go all "Club for Growth" and challenge every moderate Democrat, but more frequent selective primarying would be good. Combine this with getting more sore loser laws in place (in many states if you lose a primary you can't run in the general) this was the major hole in the Lieberman primary fight.

I can't speak for the Net Roots, and I don't think premature threats are a good thing, but expect to see a lot more primary challenges in the coming years from the left, and they WILL ignore the chattering classes complaints that it will cost the Dems seats.

Cujo359 said...

Obliterati and Tony C have made my points - this is about the failure of the Democratic Congress to do any of the things we sent it there to do. Complete failure leads to lack of satisfaction. The health care "reform" bill isn't going to change that, because it's a weak version of a weak compromise that won't fix anything besides the profit margins of health insurance companies.

@EmonOkari - this is nonsense. They're not going to enforce those new regulations. Either there won't be enough resources devoted to enforcement, or the rules will be so lax that they might as well not exist at all. How do I know this? I know that because Congress and the President have so thoroughly avoided anything that will upset the financial industries the last two decades. They're still doing it. If you think your pre-existing conditions will be paid for, you are welcome to your fantasy. The plain fact is that the insurance companies will find new excuses to screw you, and Congress will happily let them do it. That's why no viable public option isn't a loaf at all.

shrinkers said...

I think the differences are pretty simple. Democrats want to govern. Republicans want to rule. Governing is a lot harder, and it involves addressing actual issues and problems. Ruling is merely a matter of keeping people frightened so they'll agree to let you tell them what to do.

Governing requires that you listen to other points of view, and try to form compromise and consensus. To rule means you don't care about what anyone else thinks, you simply bulldoze over them, and don't worry about things like consistency or honesty.

When the Repubs had a majority in Congress, even the narrowest of majorities - even a 50/50 tie in the Senate - they crammed things through using any parliamentary tricks they liked - meeting in the dead of night, threatening to remove the filibuster as an option, and, constantly, accusing the Dems of being anti-American merely for questioning Republican policies. Now they are shocked - shocked! I tell you - if the Dems so much as hint at using budget reconciliation to get an up-or-down vote (a technique the Republicans themselves used to force through partisan tax cuts).

It's easier to rule as despots with no conscience than to govern with an eye toward actually doing some social good. With the former, all you need Do to keep the public on your side is to scare them, and tell them you'll keep them safe (and the other guy won't). With the latter, you actually have to have some occasionally contentious conversations - and you have to accomplish something, which sometimes takes more than a few months, especially when the Party of No! is doing everything in its power to maintain the status quo.

GayIthacan said...

You want an easy answer without all the highfalutin analysis and verbiage?

1. Democrats tend to be pussies.
2. Republicans will do what it takes to do what they were elected to do.
3. Those who are willing to be disliked tend to get a lot more done in this world.

Zack said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Zack said...

Once again, an article by Schaller begins with a faulty fundamental principal. Namely, the idea that when Republicans were in power, they ran roughshod and got everything they wanted accomplished by "flexing their muscles."

It's certainly true that Republicans were able to parlay 911 into some concrete policy accomplishments in the areas of foreign policy and "homeland security." However, many other Republican policy priorities were thwarted by Democrats and/or divisions within the Republican party. See, e.g., privatizing social security, comprehensive immigration reform, conservative judicial appointments, etc.

This revisionist history that Republicans got everything they wanted creates a false comparison and set Democrats up for nothing but failure (since they can't possibly live up to the absurdly high expectations based on a fantasy of what Republicans were able to accomplish).

einst1 said...

i think this blog is a good example of what is going on in congress. we all have differing points of view that tend toward the left.
we all have thought out ideas of why certain things may be and they tend to be different.

as a few of the trolls would demonstrate. the right (and i should say the extreme left) is not thoughtful they are reactionary. they're ideals are all wrong, but they believe in them strongly. no discussion.

those of us in the thinking center-left know there are multiple sides to every issue. so, it would appear that we vacillate and "flip-flop." but i contend that anyone who can't change their point of view when new facts and situations arise is a complete moron. (that, too, of course, is up for discussion).

as for this article. it is good that the approval is down that will move them into action. it is our responsibility to make them do what we voted for them to do. if they don't they won't have a job. i predict that once the health care bill is passed, things will move much faster. there will definitely be more consensus within the party on other issues.

esong_98 said...

Shrinkers and Gaylthacan make some good points. I want to add two more points. First, even when Reagan and Bush Jr. did not have Republican majorities in Congress, they got what they wanted. Reagan was especially skillful of being firm and bending only just enough to get what he wanted during the bargaining process.

Second, those who are willing to be disliked tend to be better liked than those who try to do only what's popular. That's because these people gain respect and credibility by sticking with their values and original commitments. Moderate Democrats have a hard time understanding this concept.

QueenTiye said...

The Democratic party consists of two parties in ideological conflict - and that becomes starkly apparent when the third party (Republicans) are not in power.

Pinku-Sensei said...

There have been 50+ comments and no one has yet quoted Will Rogers? I'm astonished!

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."

70 years later, this is still true.

Persuter said...

Bart:

Both Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh, U.S. citizens, were detained by the military, never Mirandized, never allowed a lawyer, and were questioned by the military using coercive tactics, such as refusing Lindh medical attention for a bullet wound he had suffered.

Then they tried them in a United States criminal court, using their coerced confessions as evidence against them! You said in a previous thread that you'd be "outraged" if U.S. citizens had lost their constitutional rights, and when I brought up these cases you, of course, declined to respond.

In Padilla's case, he was indicted in criminal court even as the United States argued before the Supreme Court that they should be allowed to hold him without trial as an enemy combatant!

I'm no fan of either person, but if you're going to try someone in criminal court, you can't keep them locked in a container on a military ship like Lindh or ship them to Guantanamo Bay for five years like Padilla. It simply defies any sense of justice or logic.

esong_98 said...

Zack, no the GOP didn't get everything what they wanted; but they were able to win the big victories such as welfare reform and push the country into a conservative direction. Democrats may have been able to slow the conservative tide and actually win many small legislative victories, but not reverse or even halt the conservative trend. Furthermore, Republican presidents got what they pushed for in the first year in office. Republican presidents only started to lose once they were in office for some time and their popularity began to wane.

Richard said...

Tsk, tsk, Bart. The appointment of conservative justices who trip over themselves to permit every government act that didn't try to help someone to the Supreme Court is sufficient, but there has actually been evidence that Bush spied on that bastion of radical islamic terrorism, the Raging Grannies.

What about "free speech zones?"

Why was there such a big deal about getting a warrant for a wiretap AFTER the fact if it was of a foreign entity? That wouldn't make any sense. Why is our domestic security regime surveilling foreign enemies?

Not to mention the fact that internal audits have shown OVER ONE THOUSAND violations of privacy under the Patriot Act... and that's just the stuff that the Patriot Act didn't rubberstamp!

Not to mention "sneak and peek" searches, National Security Letters which could not be challenged in court, and the wholesale gathering of phone, bank, and internet records.

"I said we're powerless to help you, not to punish you." --Chief Wiggum

shrinkers said...

@esong

I don't think it's a question of being "liked" particularly. I think it's more a question of being willing to follow the established rules. The Republicans are good at ignoring existing rules and customs, and merely doing what it takes to win, regardless of whether what they're doing is actually in accord with the rules of Congress or even the rule of law. (Bush's signing statements and the seizure of unprecedented executive power are good examples of this). In contrast, Dems tend to play by the rules, and to negotiate honestly. - this is the reason Repubs don't worry that Dems will take advantage of the absurd precedents that Repubs set when the government changes hands - they know the Dems don't play dirty the way they themselve4s (the Repubs) do.


A party driven by the absolute conservative conviction that they are in the right gives them the justification to do anything, no matter how sleezy, to achieve their ends - the old "ends justifies the means" bit, the conviction that since they are right they are therefore justified. This is the approach the Repubs use, and it is not only why they can ram through what they please when they're in power, it's also why they feel free to condemn the Dems at even the merest hint of the Dems using any of hte same tactics.

It's not a matter of wanting to be "liked". It's a matter of being unable to play the same sorts of scorched-earth damn-the-consequences games that the Repubs do. Being principled, unfortunately, sometimes leaves you open to being bested by people who are not principled. As GayIthacan put it, "Democrats tend to be pussies" - that is, they follow the rules and follow the laws - and "Republicans will do what it takes to do what they were elected to do" - that is, they'll burn down the house to "save" it, they'll lie, cheat, steal, and generally engage in any sort of low politics to get their way - and then congratulate themselves for having done it.

Bart DePalma said...

Persuter said...

Both Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh, U.S. citizens, were detained by the military, never Mirandized, never allowed a lawyer, and were questioned by the military using coercive tactics, such as refusing Lindh medical attention for a bullet wound he had suffered. Then they tried them in a United States criminal court, using their coerced confessions as evidence against them!

That is incorrect.

Padilla and Lindh were members of al Qaeda and the Taliban, respectively. As such they were detained as prisoners of war (using the generic version of this term, not the GC, Art. 4 privileged POW). American POWs do not have a right to an attorney or Miranda under the Constitution because they are not being criminally prosecuted.

When these men were later criminally prosecuted, they were provided the full range of constitutional rights. Lindh accepted a plea, so Justice never admitted evidence at trial. Padilla went to trial and Justice offered only evidence taken before his detention as a POW because his statements under interrogation were almost certainly inadmissible.

The problem here is that POWs have no right to silence and you can use all methods short of torture if they are not privileged under GC Common Article 4 or short of coercion if they are so privileged. However, in civilian criminal court, no involuntary statements are admissible. So statements made under standard military interrogation are generally not admissible, meaning that it is difficult to prosecute a POW in a civilian criminal court unless you have other admissible evidence as we did against Padilla.

ETM said...

I think there is a bit too moaning about how we Democrats are not getting much done when in about 2 months Congress will pass and Obama will sign sweeping health-reform legislation.

True, the bill will insufficient in some ways, including the lack of a strong public option (and perhaps no public option at all), but it will be a great start to build upon.

Let's stop expecting Obama to build Rome in a day. He wins by playing rope-a-dope with the wingnuts, not by knocking them out in the few couple of rounds.

Zack said...

@esong

I don't think politicians are able to start or stop conservative trends - that's more reflective of changes opinion (or demographics) in the population. What politicians are able to do is pass legislation. And the facts simply do not support that the Republicans, for all their "toughness," were any more successful at getting their big ideas passed (at least in the last 10 years).

For comparison, you can look at Wikipedia and compare the major pieces of legislation passed by 107th-111th Congresses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_legislation#107th_United_States_Congress

Bush in his first year was (barely) able to get his tax break passed, and was able to get No Child Left Behind passed in 2002. Otherwise, the only other major legislation that he passed was related to 911. In the 108th Congress, there were a few abortion-restriction bills that were passed, but again, the only real partisan successes for the Bush presidency were 911-related. I've already pointed out the sweeping failures of Bush's second term.

Compare that with the 111th Congress. Already, they've passed at least three Acts that are clear partisan victories (Ledbetter, SCHIP, and the Stimulus).

The facts simply don't support the idea of a uniformly successful Republican Congress under Bush, and continuing to compare today's Congress to this mythical Republican juggernaut only sets up Obama and the Democrats for failure.

Zack said...

@Dopper (and other would-be Democratic loyalty enforcers)

Please tell me exactly which Democratic Senators should be primaried out due to their disloyalty?

Pryor?
Landreau?
Lincoln?
Conrad?
Baucus?
Nelson?
Bayh?

Almost all of the "problematic" Blue Dogs are politicians who come from red (or at least strongly reddish) states. You can't primary them with someone who meets your purity test without them being replaced by Republicans.

By all means go after Lieberman. He's proved he's unreliable and he's from a state that should be solidly Democratic. But the majority of Blue Dogs are already pushing the envelope to some degree in terms of how liberal they can be, given their constituents.

The only way that Democrats have managed to get 60 seats is by accepting moderates. Bringing out the ideological enforcement cudgel only makes the Democratic bloc smaller (and repeats the major mistake that the Republicans have made in recent years). I don't know about you, but I'd rather have an unwieldy 60 seat majority than a uniform and "pure" minority.

EmonOkari said...

@EmonOkari - this is nonsense. They're not going to enforce those new regulations. Either there won't be enough resources devoted to enforcement, or the rules will be so lax that they might as well not exist at all. How do I know this? I know that because Congress and the President have so thoroughly avoided anything that will upset the financial industries the last two decades. They're still doing it. If you think your pre-existing conditions will be paid for, you are welcome to your fantasy. The plain fact is that the insurance companies will find new excuses to screw you, and Congress will happily let them do it. That's why no viable public option isn't a loaf at all.


I respect your hard-line point of view, even though I disagree with it. Consumer protections are a still a key piece to the Health Care Reform Puzzle...and must not be ignored in the grander plan.

Tony C. said...

@Zack:

That's a good candidate list, but I say lets go with any senator that refuses to vote for cloture; a procedural issue.

The fact that these people got elected proves the state is NOT a deep red state or not Democrat would have had a chance in hell. If any of them side with the Republicans on a procedural issue we should eject them from the Democratic Caucus immediately. I can stomach people voting their conscience on legislation, but when it comes to procedural issues they better tow the party line or they aren't part of the party. That is the POINT of the party.

What good is a DINO? If they side with Republicans on procedural issues, they are only "Democrats" for the purpose of getting elected, and in that case we'd be better off if we took our medicine, ejected them, and got a real Democrat into their seat.

Any so-called Democrat that votes with the Republicans to kill health care reform or the public option is conning their Democratic Party constituents.

That goes for Liebermann too; an overwhelming majority of his constituents are in favor of a robust public option and he is threatening to filibuster it. I say screw him, he either retracts that statement or we eject him from the Caucus immediately and strip him of all powers, not just his chairmanship but remove him from every committee he sits on. Screw him.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Hoffman +9

Owens -2

Scozzafava -9
~~~~~~~~~~


So BDP, you are now clinging to your guns, religion, fixednews, the teabaggers and a conservative winning NY's 23rd district!

breaking news ... NY's 23rd is a conservative district lol whereas there are no, none, nada, zilch, bupkis, squat, diddly squat, nil, zero, zip, goose egg Rep congress folk left in New England, I digress. ;)

And indeed Reps and Libertarians er teabaggers are furious an African/American family is living in the White House, but, but, but let's do the math, shall we:

Self identified Reps = around 20%, Libertarian, judging by the last election = 0.4%.

btw Bart, did you vote for Bob Barr ...

Keep hope alive w/your 20.4% of furious electorate!

take care

esong_98 said...

Shrinkers & Zack:

First Shrinkers:

I agree that Republicans have been bullies and have changed the customs and rules. I don't think Democrats should do that, but once Republicans change the rules, they should play by the new rules. In other words, Democrats would be wise to play a tit-for-tat strategy. In fact, game theorists have done experiments with college students which support tit-for-tat strategies as being optimal (In terms of getting what you want).

Second Zack:

For centuries philosophers have argued whether leaders establish the trend or are results of a trend. The best answer is that causation goes both ways, but I tend to say that great leaders do establish trends.

I don't believe that without FDR's bold leadership on the New Deal, Democrats would have been the long-term majority during the middle of the 20th Century. Likewise, public opinion polls showed that Reagan's policies were unpopular when he first took office, but by being bold and passing his programs, he was able to persuade the American electorate to follow a conservative course. Yes, the tough times in 1980 gave Reagan a great opportunity to change the direction of the country, but (for better or worse) Reagan took that opportunity.

Due to the economic crisis and the screw ups of the Bush administration, Obama is in a similar position that Reagan was in 1980. The voting public senses this so expectations are high for Obama. Thus far, Obama does have some victories. But in my opinion, they are not sweeping and in case of the budget stimulus only temporary changes in policies. If health care reform fails, once the budget stimulus program expires in 2011, we're back to the Bush policies.

If health care reform passes with some type of public option, then I think we pass from Reagan's America to Obama's America. But I believe the window of opportunity is almost closed, so the Democrats better get their act together and pass health care reform.

Mr. Universe said...
This post has been removed by the author.
GROG said...

Shrinkiers said:

It's easier to rule as despots with no conscience than to govern with an eye toward actually doing some social good.

What "social good" are you talking about? Every "social good" that liberals have ever tried has been a miserable failure.

From their war on poverty that has done nothing but keep people in poverty, to their failed national security policies (ie, The Clinton Admin, The Paty of No! regarding the surge in Iraq, the embarrasment in Afghanistan), to their policies that have completely failed the black community, to their support for Big Union, Big Lawyer, and Big Government. All have been complete failures.

djones said...

Using the most recent data posted by Gallup, one can see that ever since Obama was sworn in, Democrats have been consistently and significantly more approving of Congress than Republicans have been. Currently, (Oct 2009) Democrats are 27 points more approving than Republicans. http://www.gallup.com/poll/123491/approval-congress-falls-21-driven-democrats.aspx

shiloh said...

GROG said...

What "social good" are you talking about? Every "social good" that liberals have ever tried has been a miserable failure.
~~~~~~~~~~


Indeed, it would make me very happy if ;) brain dead Reps, like yourself tried to take away Social Security from senior citizens, Civil Rights and Voting Rights from African/Americans, Medicare from senior citizens, Equal Protection under the law from everyone, etc. etc.

Grog as per usual, you are totally frickin' clueless!

take care, blessings

Metro. St. Louis said...

@ Tony C

All due respect, I think that's a pretty clueless outlook. I'd much rather take Pryor, Landreau, and Lincoln than three more Senators like Inhofe, Thune, and Cornyn. If you can't tell the difference, it's not worth debating you.

@ esong

"If health care reform fails, once the budget stimulus program expires in 2011, we're back to the Bush policies."

That's a bit ol' "it" you've got there. If the Jets miss the playoffs, they're back to the Mangini era. In either case, it's way to early to start the eulogies.

Persuter said...

That is incorrect.

Padilla and Lindh were members of al Qaeda and the Taliban, respectively.


Sorry - where did you get the idea that Padilla was a member of al-Qa'ida? That argument was not advanced by the Department of Justice at any time. Oh that's right - the military said it about him so it must be true. I forgot.

As such they were detained as prisoners of war (using the generic version of this term, not the GC, Art. 4 privileged POW). American POWs do not have a right to an attorney or Miranda under the Constitution because they are not being criminally prosecuted.

When these men were later criminally prosecuted, they were provided the full range of constitutional rights. Lindh accepted a plea, so Justice never admitted evidence at trial.


This is completely factually incorrect - indeed, they gave him a plea precisely because they had introduced his coerced confessions and an evidence suppression hearing was about to be held on them, which they were probably going to lose. That the evidence may or may not have been technically admitted at trial is irrelevant - it was introduced against him.


Padilla went to trial and Justice offered only evidence taken before his detention as a POW because his statements under interrogation were almost certainly inadmissible.

Yes, indeed they were. Luckily, his years of detention in Guantanamo Bay didn't count towards a "fair and speedy trial", even though his sentence was reduced for his time there, nor did the poisoning of any possible jury by the public statements of United States representatives, as you yourself have made so clear by cavalierly saying that he's a member of al-Qa'ida. The judge in the case said “There is no evidence that these defendants personally maimed, kidnapped or killed anyone in the United States or elsewhere," yet you try to say that it's OK to detain Padilla because he's a member of an "enemy military". Give me a break and a half.

You know, the crazy thing about this is, the answer to all of this which doesn't make Bush into Hitler is simply that we were all scared and Bush thought he was doing what was necessary to protect the nation. That's the actual answer for why this happened. But instead, guys like you just go, "Hell yeah the military can detain whoever they want, whenever they want, for any reason whatsoever! We're at war! Sure, only the Congress can declare war, but we're at war! F**k the Constitution!"

shrinkers said...

Absolutely, shiloh. The list of Democratic accomplishments is long. Yes, the Republicants will try to denigrate them - but Republicants want us to return to a system as they had in feudal Europe, with serfs and overlords.



Esong - you're right about games theory. Mind you, I'm not defending the Dems' wish to play within the rules no matter what - I'm simply pointing out the differences in strategy between them and the Repubs, who have no sense of ethics at all.

Tony C. said...

@Metro:

Au contraire, it is you that cannot tell the difference. Who would you rather have, Pryor or Russ Feingold or Al Franken? I'll take Feingold or Franken in a heartbeat. In the meantime, by supporting Pryor, you block even the possibility of a real liberal Democrat from getting the seat.

You don't seem to comprehend the idea of sacrificing a pawn to gain a knight. The senators you name are all corporate pawns that represent a cancer on liberalism. Flush them down the toilet, because Imhofe cannot win their seats: Any state purple enough to elect ANY Democrat isn't red enough to elect Imhofe or Thune or Cornyn.

Give a real Democrat a chance, the worst you will get is a mediocre Republican, which is what you already have with Pryor, Landreau and Lincoln.

Burt said...

If I am unhappy with my air freshener because it smells too much like excrement, I am most certainly not going to replace it with actual excrement. And there are only going to be two choices.

That's where you're wrong, Harold. There are other choices, like third-party candidates, or simply staying home and not voting at all. And if the Democrats keep up what they've been doing for the last nine months, a BIG chunk of their base is going to be exercising one of those options come Election Day.

You can already see this dynamic playing out in Virginia. Pretty much every poll of the Virginia gubernatorial race shows that likely voters for next week's election are 10-15% more Republican than the electorate was last November. This is not because there's been some huge conservative surge in Virginia, as some people here would like to believe, but because the Democratic base is not motivated to turn out to vote.

What's the reason for this? Simple. Creigh Deeds, the Democratic candidate for governor in Virginia, is a milquetoast, center-right politician who has inspired no one. He has spent the entire campaign kissing up to conservatives and thereby convincing Democratic voters that there wouldn't be much of a difference between him and the Republican in the race if he got elected. So what reason do Democratic voters in Virginia have to turn out, if all they're going to get is a Republican by another name?

And the same thing is happening nationally. The Democrats won the White House and huge Congressional majorities, but by and large, they have done nothing but continue the policies the Republicans put in place before them. So what reason do Democratic voters nationally have to turn out, if all they're going to get is the same Republican policies with different window dressing?

The people voted for change. The people want change. The Democratic base wants change. Democratic leaders can either A) deliver that change, or B) lose the next election. And it's looking more and more like they're going to choose option B. Even their own electoral fortunes are less important to them than the commands of their corporate masters.

Burt said...

You said it, Tony C. Primary challenges for right-wing Democrats. If the challenges fail, third party. I'm done giving my support to Democratic politicians who will screw me over just as readily as the Republicans will.

Right now, I see no difference at all between the current Senate with 60 Democrats and a Senate with 55 Democrats minus Lincoln, Landrieu, Nelson, Baucus, and Conrad.

From now on, it's progressives or bust. We need to clear out the dead wood in the caucus, and the sooner we get started, the better.

shrinkers said...

Burt,

I appreciate your concern, but it's misplaced. Ask any Republican if they're happy with the current administration, or with the Democratic leadership in Congress. If indeed "all they're going to get is the same Republican policies with different window dressing", the Repubs wouldn't be complaining today. They'd be dancing in the streets. Which is what your suggested approach would, in fact, convince them to do.

A few days ago, another poster here (Hunter) posted a series of about 20 major things this President and this Congress have already achieved, in just the few short months we've had so far. You're not going to get everything you want, as quickly as you want - democracies are messy. Grow up and accept it. But what we're getting today is a lot better than what the Repubs gave us, and a rippin' hellova lot better than we'd get if there were more Republicants in Congress.

I don't think Democratic voters are stupid enough to elect bunches of Republicants in 2010 (or even to merely stand aside and let them get elected). That's cutting off your whole head to spite your face. It's dumb and self-defeating, and really sounds like the suggestion of a right-wing concern troll. Remember the PUMAs during last year's campaign? They wree gonna prevent Obama from being elected because they were oh so very upset about Hillary not getting the nomination. Turns out, most of them were Republicant operatives, trying to screw up Democratic voters. We didn't let them do it then, we aren't going to let it happen now.

Burt said...

But what we're getting today is a lot better than what the Repubs gave us, and a rippin' hellova lot better than we'd get if there were more Republicants in Congress.

Really? Pray tell, how is a legal requirement to buy overpriced junk insurance, combined with a tax on employer-provided health benefits, better than what the Republicans gave us?

I'm all ears on this one.

harold said...

Burt and Tony C -

Everyone supports primary challenges by better Democrats who have a chance in the general election.

What is foolish is to advocate actions that would likely lead to election of more Republicans.

I get that you will not back down on this.

However, for the benefit of third party readers, I will continue to make this simple point.

shrinkers said...

It's better, Burt, because it's a step in the right direction. It provides inexpensive insurance to people who have none at all today. It creates a public option to compete with for-profit insurance companies. It reins in the worst abuses - no more dropping when you have a claim, no more maximum payments annually or for life, no more "pre-existing conditions".

It is not a perfect bill - not by a long shot. But it is a place to start, and something we can build upon as they years go by - just as we have continued to tweak Social Security and Medicare.

If it is no better than what we have today - and if it is so good for the insurance industry - why is the insurance industry today spending millions of dollars trying to defeat this bill?

Having a bill at all, having a program in place - and establishing that yes we can regulate these insurance thieves - means we can go farther next year, and the next, and the decade after that. Killing this bill insures that nothing changes - and, in fact, emboldens the insurance pirates into screwing us even harder, knowing that we are unwilling to take even the first steps to stop them.

I don't buy your concern troll efforts to convince us to oppose a good bill. Good is better than nothing. We won't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It moves us toward where we need to be - to complain that it doesn't go all the way is stupid.

GROG said...

If it is no better than what we have today - and if it is so good for the insurance industry - why is the insurance industry today spending millions of dollars trying to defeat this bill?

Because of everything you said in your post. The purpose of this watered down bill today is to eventually destroy private insurance companies in the future in favor of a single payer, non-option,socialized Governmet Insurance Company. It's as simple as that and everyone knows it.

That's why this whole thing is a complete farce and a joke. But that's what we've come to expect from this transparent administration.

shrinkers said...

Nail on the head, GROG. The insurance companies have been screwing us for decades. It's time to rein them in. And yes, the health care reform that is moving though congress now will one day lead to a single payer universal system - the system that we need, the one that will finally deliver health care to all at an affordable cost, as a right an not a privilege.

We need to eliminate the unneeded middleman - the insurance companies - which contribute nothing to health care except absurd costs, roadblocks, and dead customers.

Burt, the reason we should support this health care bill is that it finally begins to move us down a road toward sanity - a road away from the pirates and murderers of the insurance companies.

GROG's post provides any justification you need, any proof you may be lacking that we are moving in precisely the right direction.

GROG said...

And the Dems will lie and lie and lie and weazle a phony, fraudulent, pull the wool over the eyes of the people bill.

That's the Democrat way after all. And then some Americans will protest and in turn they'll be called racists because they don't agree with Obams. Again, the Democrat way.

And they think this is a winning strategy for the party. Classic liberalism.

shrinkers said...

I'm not sure what part of this you think is a lie, GROG. I'm pretty sure most Dems are aware this is an imperfect bill, and will be improved over the next few years.

shrinkers said...
This post has been removed by the author.
shrinkers said...

By the way, GROG, the adjective form of "Democrat" is "Democratic". Why is it that Republicants are incapable of remembering that? Are you guys really that stupid?

GROG said...

No. We just know you guys are hyper-sensitive to that.

Burt said...

Grog is an idiot. Not only is this health care reform bill not single-payer, it's specifically crafted so that it can never become single-payer. Sebelius said so herself:

Asked if the administration's program will be drafted specifically to prevent it from evolving into a single-payer plan, Sebelius says: "I think that's very much the case, and again, if you want anybody to convince people of that, talk to the single-payer proponents who are furious that the single-payer idea is not part of the discussion."

This won't matter to Grog, of course, because he only hates the bill because Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck told him to hate it. But for the rest of us, who actually think, it's obvious that single-payer is not and never will be on Obama's agenda. Obama made it clear from the very beginning of the process that his number one goal in health care reform was to protect the profits of the big insurance companies. And this watered-down piece of crap bill is the result of that paradigm.

shiloh said...

GROG said...

We just know you guys are hyper-sensitive to that.
~~~~~~~~~~


and then the hypersensitive, projecting, winger troll says: And the Dems will lie and lie and lie

btw, not a lot of source material represented re: and weazle a phony, fraudulent, pull the wool over the eyes of the people bill.

Quite the compelling argument er pathetic, bankrupt ad hominems ...

Again, after (8) years of cheney/bush a clueless, hypersensitive, winger troll calling Dems liars is Priceless! and sooo ironic.

take care, blessings

p.s. and yes Burt, Grog is an idiot. That was determined some time ago.

GROG said...

Burt,

Well. My God, if Sebelius said so it must be true. My bad.

shrinkers said...

Burt,

You're right - this bill, this program, cannot become a single-payer system.

However, once the public stops being frightened by the rightwingnut scream of "Gummint run health care! Socialism!" a single-payer system will become more possible.

It's funny - the rightwingnuts accuse Obama of being way left wing socialist commie Nazi out to destroy America. Concern trolls who claim to be left wing accuse him of being in the pocket of Big Industry. To me, this indicates that he is just about right - pragmatic and progressive.

But Burt, you;re right that wingnuts hate health care reform because they've been told to hate it. Not a brain cell among them. Anyone who can be so easily convinced to scream so loudly against their own interests - well, Bush said it best - "One's mind is a terrible thing to lose."

TiredOldWhiteMan said...

Tony C. said...

As a life-long liberal Democrat that has voted in every election since Nixon resigned:

Number 3, dammit all to hell. What the hell does it take? Republicans force crap down our throats repeatedly and with great glee regardless of whether we are in power or not, and here we are once again trying to play nice. I'd like to see some damn liberal muscle flexed for once. Throw Liebermann out of the Democratic caucus, to start, and do your damndest to end his career. I'd rather get nothing than keep eating shit sandwiches.

Amen 4shure...

I for one have given up on the damned Democrats. Precious little to fall back on but I'll be damned if I give the Dumos ANY of my votes.

Tuh hell with 'em. They can rot along side their kissing cousins the Republicans.

I can see no reason to vote for a Democrat when all you're going to end up with is another Republican.

Give it up. WE THE PEOPLE are NOT in charge of crap in this country. The owner is Big Business and we're little more than profit centers.

F--k 'em, f--k 'em all!

shrinkers said...

@TiredOldWhiteMan

You know, you don't have to pull any punches here. Tell us how you really feel.

I'm with you on this - my first presidential election I voted in, I held my nose and helped elect Jimmy Carter. But I have learned one thing. Radical change doesn't happen without guns.

I'm content to see incremental change. My grandchildren will grow up in a world that has always had a black president. That is more than nothing.

And Obama is keeping his promises - I think a lot of left wingers saw in him what they wanted to see, rather than listening to what he actually said. He is doing exactly what he said he would do. Go back and listen to his campaign speeches.

Now me, I'm a radical socialist. Abby Hoffman was a right wing reactionary compared to me. But I am also a realist. If we are to get to the promised land, there are two ways - through violent revolution, or just one step at a time, putting one foot in front of the other. Despite being a leftwing radical, I am also a pacifist. I'll take the long view every time - mankind has been around for something like 100,000 years (despite what the bible thumpers say) and if it takes us another couple of decades, that's life.

Mr. Universe said...

@Burt
CC: Shrinkers
RE: Previously mentioned list (I've added a few)


To all those who think Obama has failed to accomplish anything since he took office, I offer the following (feel free to spread this around):

1)Passed a stimulus act that pulled us back from the brink of an honest-to-God Great Depression II.
2)Passed the Ledbetter act that corrected an unbelievable injustice in employment discrimination law.
3)Pulled more concessions from Iran than Bush got in 8 years of senseless saber-rattling.
4)Increased the minimum wage, sorely needed by the workers in this country who currently have lower real wages than they did in 1970, even as our GDP has grown 18-fold.
5)Made it to the homestretch on the healthcare reform we've been trying to pass for 40 years.
6)Set a real timetable for getting out of Iraq.
7)Oversaw the killing of Al-Qaeda's top man in Pakistan and a host of other terrorist leaders.
8)Finally reworked our military budget from an ancient and ineffective cold-war focus to a high-tech-focused counterinsurgency tool...something Bush never even touched, even as his "war on terror" rhetoric reached a fever pitch.
9)Managed just enough threats against the banks that they've started repaying the TARP money Bush paid out.
10)Started the process of re-regulating the banking/insurance/investment industry for the first real time since the 1930's.
11)Begun placing Guantanamo prisoners elsewhere in preparation for closing the base.
12)Got the politics and pressure out of the Department of Justice.
13)Denounced torture and rescinded the absurd legal theories that allowed it.
14)Threaded the needle on unrest in Iran.
15)Dramatically modernized White House communications and technology, improving the flow of information to the public.
16)Started over 2500 highway projects, with bidding so fierce that the costs are below expectations and should allow even more projects than expected.
17)Created a $2500 tuition tax credit to help shore up our woeful debt-burden on families.
18)Reworked our student loan programs to great improvement.
19)Created and started execution of a plan to save the auto industry. (All you people screaming about 9.8% unemployment should stop and think what it would be if GM and Chrysler had been allowed to fail as prescribed by conservative economics.)
20)Stabilized Pakistan with $5B in aid.
21)Created the Office of Urban Policy and reversed Bush cuts to inner-city anti-gang/anti-gun policies, policies experts say are instrumental in reducing crime.
22)Added over 2 million acres of Federally-protected wilderness.
23)Dramatically improved America's image abroad.
24)Did I mention the Nobel Prize for Peace?
25)Taken Health care reform farther than it has ever been since Teddy Roosevelt (a Republican) first introduced the idea.
26) Authorized successful pirate smackdown

All this in the past nine months and without support of the Republican party and with the obstruction of uber-conservatives and their dupes. To the latter two segments I ask:

1) How much have YOU accomplished in the last nine months?

2) How much does Obama need to accomplish before you are satisfied that Obama is doing what's best for our nation?


Add and edit as you see fit.

EmonOkari said...

Well. My God, if Sebelius said so it must be true. My bad.

Lift your arms above your head, whisper two 'Hail Barney Franks', thrice spin in a circle in symbolic support of the President, House Speaker, and Senate Majority Leader...then finish with a 'Praise Obama!'

You are now forgiven.

Mr. Universe said...

@shrinkers

By the way, GROG, the adjective form of "Democrat" is "Democratic". Why is it that Republicants are incapable of remembering that?

I think Limbaugh started that as a pejorative and it just stuck. Now conservatives don't even know how annoying it is to liberals. Rush has trained them well.

shrinkers said...

@Mr. Universe

I recall hearing this inability to say "Democratic" as far back as the mid 60s. I think being a Republicant just does something to people's minds.

Mr. Universe said...

Hey GROG,

When's the last time you got a good raise? Was it a cost of living raise that just kept you ahead of the minimum wage earners? Or was it an actual raise based upon merit? If you haven't had one in awhile, I can tell you who got it.

Your health insurance company got it becuase they jacked the premiums up 480% over the last decade and your employer had little choice but to acquiesce.

What insurance companies are doing amounts to breaking anti-trust laws. If any other segment of the GDP tried this they'd get reamed with a new legal asshole.

Sure, a public option will keep them from making the obscene profits they have gotten accustomed to. And I'm supposed to feel bad about that? I've been fucked and left hanging out to dry by insurance enough to only DREAM that we'll get single payer someday.

Mr. Universe said...

@shrinkers

yeah, I could be wrong about Democrat vs Democratic. I've thought about trying to start a movement and call them Republics but it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

It is mildly annoying, kind of like people who say mis-CHEE-VEE-ous. I cringe every time I hear it abused that way.

shrinkers said...

@Mr. Universe

Republicks isn't bad.

I figure, they take a couple letters out of "Democratic", it must be because they figure they need some more. So I use "Republicants".

GROG said...

It's not grammaticaly incorrect to use a noun in place of an adjective.

"I'm going to the Yankee game."
"That's the Yankee way."
"I'm going to eat some bean soup at the kitchen table while reading a maganzine article."

But, it's the Democrat way to insult people and play the Rush Limbaugh card when you have nothing intelligent to say.

GROG said...

Mr. Universe,

More competition and tort reform would do more to lower costs than anything in the farce of a bill the Dems have proposed. The Dems are too busy getting their pockets lined by Big Lawyer to offer any kind of tort reform and the free markets go against everything good liberals stand for.

This bill has nothing to do with lowering costs. It's about creating a Government Controlled Nanny State. The Democratic Party NEEDS as many people to be reliant on Government. The party's survival depends on it.

chgoblue said...

"That's the Democrat way after all. And then some Americans will protest and in turn they'll be called racists because they don't agree with Obams. Again, the Democrat way."

The irony of this statement defies explanation. After 8 years of Bush/Cheney who lied, distorted, and misrepesented just about everything, that comment is especially amusing.

For additional evidence, read ANGLER, by Barton Gellman. A amazing descriptive and accurate depiction of the Cheney Presidency...oops, I mean VICE presidency. Great book.

Bart de douchebag,

Do you just make stuff up in a pathetic attempt to sound halfway intelligent. Guess what? It's not working. I have honestly never seen a poster who is so consistently WRONG about everything....except Pete Kent maybe.. Not surprising though since the far-right does seem to be allergic to the facts.

I love these right wing Bush apologists that now describe themselves as "libertarians." Bush was anything but a libertarian. How do you reconcile that exactly?

shiloh said...

GROG said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Whereas I will agree being called democrat or democratic is totally insignificant and meaningless, having been called much worse to my face since the late '60s and I'm a liberal independent ...

It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt Grog is an idiot!

take care, blessings

Tony C. said...

@Burt:

Right now, I see no difference at all between the current Senate with 60 Democrats and a Senate with 55 Democrats minus Lincoln, Landrieu, Nelson, Baucus, and Conrad.

Excellent point; add Liebermann to that list and make it 54. If they aren't voting with us on important issues, what's the difference? They are occupying a seat in the Senate. So not only do we fail to override the Republicans, we perpetuate a situation where we can never override the Republicans, because the seats where Republicans are most vulnerable to Democratic challengers are precisely these seats that purportedly Democratic candidates have won. We have a real and significant chance of putting a loyal and liberal Democrat in Liebermann's seat or Landrieu's seat, we have far less real chance of replacing any sitting Republican senator, it borders on zero.

Tony C. said...

@harold:

Your simple point is misguided. By analogy, if I am driving cross country and take a wrong highway that is still moving me generally West, I don't say I will stick with it because I am making progress. I turn around, move backwards, and take the right damn highway.

Sometimes in life things must be undone and redone correctly in order to function properly; always living with whatever has evolved is a recipe for dissatisfaction and non-optimality. Sometimes we must incur expenses to make things better. In my house, I had my plumbing redone completely because I was tired of years of patching it, and I don't regret it at all, despite the expense.

I'd rather risk suffering a term with a Republican jerk than play it safe with a faux-Democrat.

Many Republicans are realizing this about their own party, and demanding REAL fiscal conservatives, or REAL social conservatives, or REAL religious zealots. Democrats see that as a circus and an implosion, I see that as determined people taking on pain in order to get what they want (even though I despise what they want). Unfortunately for them, they waited until they had major losses on their agenda before they took action. The best time to do these things is while you are STRONG, so you can stand the ejections and losses and still be relatively effective.

You are living in a fantasy world where you think you have power and actually have none. This is the danger of fantasies and lies, you remain ignorant of reality, but reality rules and then bites you in the ass, because a fiction can only be maintained for so long before it collapses under its own weight. As did the Republican's fiction about their "family values" and "serious concerns" and "liberty" and all that other bullshit.

Let them serve as a warning to Democrats; the time for reality is NOW.

TiredOldWhiteMan said...

Tony C. wrote:

"Let them serve as a warning to Democrats; the time for reality is NOW."

Which is EXACTLY my point.

It doesn't have a lot to do with President Obama; its the spineless, greedy, suck-off-Big Business Democrats who've earned my ire.

Both parties are owned by Big Business. Keif-keif.

Thanks,

TOWM

Mr. Universe said...

GROG said,

But, it's the Democrat way to insult people and play the Rush Limbaugh card when you have nothing intelligent to say.


Oh I've said plenty of intelligent things here. It takes a discerning and intelligent reader to make the distinction and I think shiloh's right, you don't fall into that category. Besides, Douche Limbaugh gives me plenty of ammunition.

Tort reform. Translation: 'Not only can we screw you with higher rates and denial of care but now you can't touch us if we do screw things up'.

To be fair, Obama did request that tort reform be addressed in this bill. Frankly, I don't think anyone should be prevented from suing someone if they feel they have been harmed in some way. If you want limits on damages, fine. I still think that should be determined on a case by case basis but I'd be okay with some form of cap.

Tony C. said...

@Mr. Universe:

Well, I believe there are instances in which tort law can be reformed in a way that betters society. Although class action suits are a necessity for some kinds of cases, I also have seen (being involved in the legal industry for some time as a consultant) class action suits abused horribly. Lawyers sue over trivial things, get awards of millions and distribute to their clients pennies. I mean that literally, I have seen lawyers earn millions and when the awarded amount is split among the class, they actually receive less than a dollar apiece: Except for the main guy they found to front for the lawsuit; that guy gets tens of thousands.

I believe the incentives for this kind of lawsuit are simply wrong; most class action suits are not of the Erin Brockovich movie category, the people actually "harmed" have no idea they are harmed, they got shorted 80 cents on savings account interest, or charged an extra five cents on interstate calls, or bought a new car that had its paint scratched in shipping and the dealer repaired the scratch and sold the car as new (gasp!). These are actual cases, and the lawyers for these cases cleaned up while the supposed victims get a random check in the mail from their company with their share, amounting to a cup at Starbucks if they are lucky.

I do think class action suits are a necessity to correct some kinds of fraud and wrong-doing on the part of corporations, but I think they should be prohibited unless there is evidence that each victim has been ripped off by at least some amount, say, four hours at minimum wage ($30), and that attorneys cannot take more than 10% of the total award in their total fees and expenses.

Things should be sensible. Likewise, as a business consultant, I have heard an attorney tell a client to immediately settle a sexual harrassment suit when the complainant offered to settle for $20K. The suit was apparently unfounded, but the attorney said her lawyer could run his bills up to $30K before he ever got to tell his side to anybody, even a judge, much less a jury. In sexual harassment cases, males are presumed guilty until proven innocent, and much of the law is written that way (Harrassment is defined as a subjective feeling by the victim, essentially if she feels harrassed you are guilty of harrassment). Some kind of reform is needed so females cannot simply lie and collect $20K or whatever without any proof whatsoever.

Mr. Universe said...

@Tony C.

I agree with your premise and have several examples of absurd cases in my field. My tone with the other poster was combative and not very articulate.

I spent several years in the entertainment industry at one of the larger publishing firms. I know a great deal about copyright law from personal experience. The music biz is replete with examples of frivolous infringement lawsuits. Most of these are settled out of court regardless of their merit specifically to avoid making attys a lot of undeserved $$.

Interesting things are taking place with copyright. With a finite number of notes and combinations of chords and lyrics, we're running out of original material (one of the criteria that courts look at in infringement cases). Witness the recent Coldplay/Joe Satriani/Cat Stevens/ Marty Balin snafu. Plus, copyright law in 1787 never even dreamed that artists today would use sampling as an art form.

So the irony is that what was once set up to protect and promote art and culture is now inhibiting the very creativity it sought to protect.

Compound this with the RIAA going after illegal downloaders with punitive damages levied in the millions of dollars to an individual for just 32 songs. Well, you get the idea. Plenty of room for improvement there.

So yes, I am not opposed to tort reform in the health care industry (unless I'm duking it out with trolls on 538.com).

Tony C. said...

@Mr. Universe:

Specifically in the health care industry, I consulted for a large hospital chain needing IT for preventive maintenance on medical equipment. These guys get sued all the time, if somebody dies there is a lawyer out there willing to sue. Some of those cases are valid malpractice complaints, but the majority are just opportunism: Death frightens jurors and means money. The attorneys spend tens of thousands of dollars and cost the hospital thousands of dollars requesting everything about everything, they want the times and dates and personnel involved on wheelchair and stretcher maintenance, even if those have nothing to do with the death. These things are just insane fishing expeditions trying to find anything, no matter how remote, they can hang a case on.

Lawyers don't really have to chase ambulances anymore; just walk through the hospital looking for somebody crying in grief. That's the fresh meat, man, because hospitals and insurance companies have deep deep pockets.

I have no sympathy for hospitals and insurance companies, believe me. I have seen both from the inside and the people running them are fucking straight up sociopaths. But so are their predators, the lawyers.