10.30.2009

Sarah Palin: From Winks to Winces

As fivethirtyeight.com readers know, Nate and I have a bet about the 2012 presidential fate and fortunes of Sarah Palin. Nate has been blogging about other issues and assures me he will be responding to that earlier post in due course.

But yesterday came word of a new development on the Palin presidential front, courtesy of Politico's Jonathan Martin:

Iowa Republicans wince at Sarah Palin's $100K speaking fee
By Jonathan Martin, 10/29/09 5:06 AM EDT

A conservative Iowa group’s effort to lure Sarah Palin to its banquet next month has had an unintended effect: Rather than exciting conservatives about the prospect of a visit from the former Alaska governor, the group’s plan to raise a six-figure sum to bring her to the state has GOP activists recoiling at the thought of paying to land a politician's speaking appearance.

The Iowa Family Policy Center’s effort to cobble together $100,000 for Palin would represent a striking departure from customary practice in the first-in-the-nation state, these Republicans say, noting that a generation of White House hopefuls has paid their own way to boost their party and presidential ambitions.
On the first day of American Presidential Politics 101, presidential aspirants learn that Iowans must be stroked, flattered, humored and generally told how great and important they are. (The Iowans I know are, in fact, smart and lovely people--but that's besides the point of their inordinate and unfair influence in presidential politics.)

For Palin to show up in Iowa looking for a check, rather than bearing one from SarahPAC--which brought in three-quarters of a million dollars in the first half of this year and has already drawn scrutiny from FEC--means that she is either the most dim-witted presidential aspirant ever, which I seriously doubt, or her interests clearly tilt toward cashing in on her star-power. Although one might ask for a $100,000 speaking fee from a giant corporation or trade association, requesting it from a non-profit 501(c)3 group--no less one that promotes conservative family values and is based in Iowa--is about as stupid as it gets.

Then there is the name "SarahPac." I realize Palin has reached an iconic status, like "Michael" or "Madonna," such that her first name alone is sufficient to identify her. But naming your PAC after yourself? Despite my clucking about the freedom-heavy rhetoric in the name and mission statements of both Mitt Romney's and Tim Pawlenty's PACs, at least both opted to name their PACs after a conservative ideal rather than themselves.

The point, again, is that a politician hoping to woo people to support her presidential aspirations does not engage in such behaviors or send these signals. Oh, and then there's the matter of her surprise, premature resignation of the Alaska governorship.

Palin may still run, of course. There's even a case to be made that she will run--even if she fails to win the 2012 nomination--because doing so keeps her name and face at the center of the national political conversation, which in turn is good for business, so to speak. But Sarah Palin's actions the past year, in least insofar as they pertain to a potential presidential bid, have generated more winces than winks.

201 comments

Sacto Joe said...

Why do liberals post this crud? It only helps keep Palin's name in the news. Better to just ignore her and her antics.

I'd much rather have a discussion on something meaningful, like how Senator Lieberman, in threatening to veto health care against the wishes (according to the latest polls) of a majority of his constituents, shows he doesn't believe in "representational democracy".

Brian said...

@ Sacto Joe

Wow. Really? I don't like what Lieberman is doing, but you really think not voting directly based on polls is what we want or what "representational democracy" is all about? Read some speeches by Edmund Burke or another of our founders to truly understand the intent of our form of representation.

What you want is to have a referendum on everything... which really is a terrible, terrible idea.

Chris said...

Seriously. Sarah Palin, Balloon Boy, Jon and Kate, Heidi and Spencer, Octomom. Why do people have so much interest in watching these train wrecks. Who cares? They're nobodies. They're just mind-numbingly stupid narcissists who provide nothing of value to anyone. Ignore them and they'll go away.

Rudy said...

Sacto Joe, you're having gross failure understanding the concept of representative government. It is their perogative to vote as they wish. The consequence for offending the sensibilities of constituents occurs at the ballot box.

Alon Levy said...

Brian: you're right that Edmund Burke told his constituents he was going to vote his conscience rather than theirs. He got tossed out of office the next election, perhaps because of this.

But the questions people have raised about Lieberman are different. Lieberman has never been right-wing or even moderate on domestic issues like health care. His record is liberal; his constituents are liberal. So there has to be some explanation for why he's suddenly opposing the public option.

shiloh said...

One must remember, palin's a maverick and may not always follow the beaten path and may take the political road less traveled by, you bet'cha!

In fact she may currently be hiking the Appalachian Trail w/Sanford. ;)

Seriously re: palin's future aspirations, I'll try to find you some and I'll bring them to you.

yea, winger's er Sacto don't like threads re: palin, Vitters, Sanford, Ensign, Joe Wilson, Perry, Bachmann, Blackburn, Boehner, Cantor, Jindal, Gingrich, etc. as it reminds them of how totally inept the current party of No! is

but, but, but they will defend racist Limbaugh until the cows come home and rail against Gay marriage as if their lives depended on it ...

'nuf said!

p.s. a winger deflected this thread in the very first post to Lieberman, too funny!

palin/darth 2012

It could happen! ;)

Rudy said...

Why no more chatter about health care? Nate sure got pwned earlier in the week by being talked into reversing field on his formerly accurate analysis of the public option's prospects. This Pelosi bill is going over like a lead balloon and Obama is still chickenheartedly sitting on the sidelines waiting for a parade to jump in front of. No, it's not his bill, um-um-um.

DCM in FL said...

Ol'Joe L. is just mavericky like that - along with his BBF, John Mac.

He justs wants the attention [like Palin] as witnessed by this newsflash on ABC as posted today over at Political Wire:

'Lieberman Will Campaign for Some Republicans Next Year'

Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) tells ABC News "he will campaign for some Republican candidates during the 2010 midterm elections and may not seek the Democratic Senate nomination when he runs for re-election in 2012."

Said Lieberman: "I probably will support some Republican candidates for Congress or Senate in the election in 2010. I'm going to call them as I see them."
---------------------------------
maybe Joe does still want to be remembered as the first american to be nominated by BOTH major parties for VP - and then to 'lose' both elections

but he sure has lost all his dignity imho...

and birds of a feather do tend to flock together - so let him pal around with Sarah

Huh said...

Interesting corollary to this post: Sarah Palin just received something like 1.25 million in book-advance money.

I thought it sounded a bit low personally, but putting out a book raises the same question as the 100k speaking fee: Is she running for office or cashing in on her fame?

Personally I think the book advance hurts her as much or more than the speaking fees. It's a windfall profit that will easily be construed as cashing in.

Most politicians would get away with this, but the media really does jump all over everything she does. Deservedly, I think, because she's probably the single most divisive figure in American politics these days.

jgnesa said...

Unrelated to Lieberman and the cute little representative democracy discussion, and only slightly related to the original post: Palin- third/independent party run, either for herself or to support/create a third/independent/Conservative-Party-of-New-York-type candidate in 2012. She left office saying she'd campaign for candidates, even Democratic ones, which must really mean outside the Beltway, populist candidates; there is now this NY 23 dark horse race. It's probably safe to assume the GOP would have buyer's remorse if they nominated her. But that doesn't mean she has no way of running.

Personally I bet she'd REALLY rather to run in 2016, unless Obama is hurtin' bad or the Tea Party revolution is in full-swing in 2012. If I was Tom I'd amend my bet :) forget the spherical cow, and consider a black swan.

shiloh said...

Rudy said...
~~~~~~~~~~


and Rudy deflects the thread to health care. Hey, all I ask for is consistency and wingers consistently deflect ...

Brian said...

@ Alon Levy

I am not standing by Burke's record, but rather his words, which incapsulate the basis for our "democracy." Perhaps Burke lost his seat because he actually told people the truth about it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't always exist. The point is that if representatives voted based on polling data then much historic legislation would never pass.

If you want to see an example of voting based 100% on constituencies look at the UN or more specifically the UN security counsel. There is a reason the only things that ever pass are resolutions condemning this or that. Legislators are Americans first and natives of their state second.

As I said before, I am not supportive of Lieberman's choice and I do think he has ulterior motives, but my point is much more focused than that. Voting based on polling is not what the country needs nor was it ever the intent of the Founders. Had the original poster's point been that the polls are a factor and not an indication of Lieberman's lack of understand of our form of government, I wouldn't have said a thing.

Tony C. said...

I am not an Iowan and never have been, but it is idiotic to say they have too much influence. Look, somebody is going to vote first, and if you make it the same state all the time, they develop a culture and sense of responsibility in vetting the candidates, and actually become far more informed voters and better citizens because of it. Iowans, quite literally and selflessly, do the rest of us a service.

Their votes don't count any more than anybody else's vote, but we owe a great deal to the political culture of Iowa in the form of questions asked, meetings and rallies and speeches attended, sound bites and film clips disseminated and so on. If you just chose a state at random to be first, this culture would not exist: Iowans high participation rate and extreme attention are there only because they are always first and thus they take "first" seriously.

That is not "undue influence," that is a service to the nation, and if that makes them think they deserve a little respect for making an unpaid effort, I don't begrudge them that. Mix the rest of us up a bit, I'm all for that. Leave Iowa alone, that culture of involvement and scrutiny cannot be easily duplicated.

Jon said...

This article is deceiving at best. If you read the whole thing you see that the article tries to imply she's out for money and then at the end discloses that there is no evidence of the fact. It is very shoddy journalism.


“This is one of more than a thousand requests for the governor's time,” said Palin spokeswoman Meg Stapleton. “This particular invitation arrived late last week. It is under consideration, as so many are, but will be incredibly difficult to attend with her tightly-scheduled book tour underway at that point.”

Palin’s book, “Going Rogue,” is to be released on November 17th, followed by a national book tour.

There is no indication that the former governor has requested a fee or that her decision whether to attend is being influenced by whether she’ll be paid.

Sacto Joe said...

I really don't give two flying farts what a Senator's "rights" are. I do care that they represent the majority opinion of their state.

If not, then it ain't democracy. It's meritocracy or some other shit.

theodicy1969 said...

"This article is deceiving at best...It is very shoddy journalism."

Dear John. This is a blog.


Blogs aren't journalism. There is a world of difference between the two. That doesn't mean blogs are invalid. It DOES mean that blogs aren't journalism, period, and thus cannot be "shoddy journalism".

Charles said...

Back on topic: "There is no indication that the former governor has requested a fee or that her decision whether to attend is being influenced by whether she’ll be paid."

I hope you lose your bet, Tom.

Rob in Denver said...

@Huh: The $1.25 million represents a portion of the advance. Typical of the industry is to pay a third up front, a third upon submission of the manuscript, and the final third upon publication. I've recently read that Harper Collins, Palin's publisher, pays half up front and the other half upon pub (IIRC).

Assuming one of these is true, her advance is as little as $2.5 million or as much as $3.75 million. Nice money by just about any standard, to be sure. But, as you say, it seems a bit low given the size of her celebrity.

Charles said...

Huh:

What is "interesting" is that Democrats who are just as divisive figures in American politics, such as BOTH Clintons, got book-advances larger than Palin but she's the only one getting attacked. Either you are afraid of her or not, which is it?

Charles said...

PRESS RELEASE:

10/30/09 Pleasant Hill, IA – Iowa Family Policy Center ACTION received word this morning that Governor Sarah Palin is unable to accept our speaking invitation due to her book tour, contractual commitments, which cannot be changed.

We extended our invitation knowing she would be in the middle of her book tour and the chances of her being able to accept any invitations were extremely slim.
She has asked if she could speak at a future mutually agreeable date. She will not accept any fees for her appearance.

shiloh said...

Charles said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Bill Clinton was a (2) term president and Hillary was the Dem presidential candidate the wingers most wanted to be the nominee as conservatives, like yourself, have an everlasting fetish for the Clinton's! as your post indicates.

whereas palin is a quitter/loser/whiner etc.

but, but, but BDP will tell you she has an intoxicating wink! ;)

So Chuck, you care about racist Limbaugh, denying Gay's equal protection and ms. mooseburger's book deal ...

Charles said...

Anyone else?

Charles said...

theodidicy1969:

I don't expect anything better from Tom. However, the "article" being referenced was Jonathan Martin (as well as Ben Smith's column) at The Politico who DO consider themselves to be journalists. Ben Smith formerly wrote for the Wall Street Journal, the New York Sun, the New York Observer and the New York Daily News. I could check if he actually graduated from journalism school too.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28873.html

Diamondhead said...

Dear John. This is a blog.


Blogs aren't journalism. There is a world of difference between the two. That doesn't mean blogs are invalid. It DOES mean that blogs aren't journalism, period, and thus cannot be "shoddy journalism".


Interesting points, except Jon was quoting from the Politico's article, not this blog. Point being, of course, that Politico included the statement Jon quoted well after most nitwits had quit reading the article.

Obliterati said...

Either you are afraid of her or not, which is it?

Charles, if there is anything I can possibly say or do to convince you and every other conservative that we are really actually afraid of Palin, please let me know what that is.

And if you and other conservatives are already convinced that we're afraid of her, then please, don't let me dissuade you.

Charles said...

Tom is clearly clutching at any straw to justify his bet with Nate. After Tuesday's special election, I think we'll all see how much influence someone impertinent enough to name her political action committee after herself really is (see also has another PAC not named after herself if that helps).

Charles said...

Obliterati:

I wasn't asking you.

Kelly said...

Of course the PAC is named after Sarah - it's silly to consider any other name for the product it is selling.

Many candidates from both parties are hamstrung by their underlying mental processes: they think that they represent a set of positions on various issues. So they name their PAC after a catchy way to describe those positions.

Sarah Palin goes far beyond that. She is not selling her position on issues, she is selling *herself*.

When asked to describe her position on issues, she struggles to form coherent sentences, let alone form compelling arguments laying out a course of action.

I believe Sarah Palin and candidates like her are the future of US politics. Personality, not positions, gets people elected these days.

Maybe it always did?

Michael said...

I will give this to her...she is milking the cow for all it's worth Her 2 hours and 15 minutes will be up soon. It lasted 2 hours longer than anticipated. Even if she makes a run for prez it's all in the $$ game.
1. she will never win.
2. She does not want the job.
3. She knows she is not qualified.

Charles said...

Kelly:

Her new PAC is called "Stand Up For Our Nation". Nice try though.

Charles said...

Michael:

If she does not want the job and knows that she will never win / is unqualified, why did she run for Vice President?

Inferno said...

Feeding the troll, I know, but...

Joe, suppose that Lieberman were from Wyoming. Everything else is the same, except for his constituency. Hell, even suppose he's from a state like West Virginia (where Rockefeller is probably to the left of most WV voters) or Ohio or Pennsylvania (which is often described as being Philly and Pittsburgh with Alabama in the middle).

Would his opposition be more tenable? By your metric, it should be. However, I think it'd be a safe bet that you'd be shrieking because Lieberman is BUCKING HIS CAUCUS and DISOBEYING THE WILL OF WYOMING VOTERS.

Look, I don't approve of his stance at all. But part of the entire design of our institution of government is that mob rule doesn't hold total sway. It's part of the reason why senators weren't even directly elected until the 17th Amendment, and why they have a long term of service (6 years).

Hell, that's the fundamental point of representative democracy. As stated upthread, a public referendum on everything is lunacy. (I mean, shit, look at Prop 8. Look at Question 1. Look at the fact that I just got a mailer accusing Corzine and Daggett of working to destroy the traditional American family - as if Jon and Kate, Britney, Octomom, so on and so forth weren't doing a bang-up enough job of that already. And that's just one issue!) Hell, part of the reason California is so California-y is because they referendum damn near everything.

tl;dr: Please, if you're going to post here, make it less obvious that you failed Civics 101.

NU'69 said...

We get these Palin posts b/c Libs remain afraid of her. On some level I see that since she is so more impressive than Obama. But she's going nowhere and so is he.

mob said...

just for comparisons:
agassi got 5 million for his book. i guess a washed up tennis player is worth more than a washed up quitter

i personally would rather hear about health care. even lieberman at least i can be angry about, but palin just makes me sickly

and as for should a representative of a state represent the wishes of that state. what idiot thinks they should represent the opposite? except for slimeball joe of course...

Just John said...

As much fun as ignoring the trolls can be, it's often just as much fun to play a little game called "where's mule"? Can anyone spot him in this thread? It's not brain rocket science surgery.

Palin's in it for the money. Her resignation, which was an act of presidential ambitioncide, is all the evidence you'll ever need. It's hard to blame her. And much more fun to mock her now that there's no risk she'll ever be holding the nuclear codes suitcase.

Charles said...

NU'69:

But Obliterati insists that they are NOT afraid. So, if she's going to lose so badly, why not simply welcome her (you know what they say about "Never interrupt your enemy when (s)he is making a mistake."

mob:

This "idiot" for starters:

"The nature & extent of the obligation on a representative to be guided by the known will of his Constituents, though an old question, seems yet to be in a controvertible state. In general it may be said to be often a verbal controversy. That the obligation is not in strictness constitutional or legal, is manifest; since the vote of the Representative is equally valid & operative whether obeying or violating the instruction of his constituents. It can only be a moral obligation to be weighed by the conscience of the Representative, or a prudential one to be enforced by the penal displeasure of his Constituents.

In what degree a plurality of votes is evidence of the will of the Majority of voters, must depend on circumstances more easily estimated in a given case than susceptible of general definition. The greater the number of candidates among whom the votes are divided, the more uncertain, must, of course, be the inference from the plurality with respect to the majority.

In our complex system of polity, the public will, as a source of authority, may be the Will of the People as composing one nation; or the will of the States in their distinct & independent capacities; or the federal will as viewed, for example, thro' the Presidential Electors, representing in a certain proportion both the Nation & the States. If in the eventual choice of a President the same proportional rule had been preferred, a joint ballot by the two Houses of Congress would have been substituted for the mode which gives an equal vote to every State however unequal in size. As the Constitution stands, and is regarded as the result of a compromise between the larger & smaller States, giving to the latter the advantage in selecting a president from the Candidates, in consideration of the advantage possessed by the former in selecting the Candidates from the people, it cannot be denied whatever may be thought of the Constitutional provision, that there is, in making the eventual choice, no other controul on the votes to be given, whether by the representatives of the smaller or larger States, but their attention to the views of their respective Constituents and their regard for the public good."

James Madison (1825)

Charles said...

Just John:

Is Nate Silver also a "troll" for looking at the polling, doing the analysis, and coming to the conclusion that Palin WILL run for President?

mob said...

charles

it is absurd to keven pretend that lieberman is answering to some higher public good.

sick people and voters in CT who want and need health care are not a mob. there wish that their representative REPRESENT them is not a moral for joe to decide.
it is an issue that LIEBERMAN campaigned on.

the lack of morals is already apparent in lieberman

mob said...

sorry
correction their instead of there.

Charles said...

We'll have to agree to disagree about that.

markymark said...

Will Palin run? My honest opinion is that right now its up in the air, and the difficulty in judging Palin's action is that she doesn't think or act like a normal politician, so noone can really know. I think it would be a very tough run for her now mind. She made a fuss about Obama's lack of experience, but now has only served half a term as governor. So I think some more uncomfortable interviews will be on the cards if she does run. I also think her appeal is too narrow to be a succesful candidate at the moment, and she doesn't show any sign of widening her appeal. So if she does run, I doubt she will win.

Charles said...

Luckily, for Nate, the wager with Tom is limited to (a) whether or not Sarah Palin runs for the Republican nomination and (b) whether she wins the nomination. Assuming she does run, I think the nomination is in the bag. We'll see about the general election.

Charles said...

Of course, what were STATE Senator Barack Obama's chances THREE WHOLE YEARS before he won?

Just John said...

Please do run Sarah. And win the nomination. Pretty pretty please.
By the way, her PAC is not technically named "SarahPAC," she just calls it that in her ads. Distinction w/o difference.
Of course, what'll be much more interesting is watching what happens later next decade when her book money runs out and her star has almost completely faded.

Charles said...

Just John:

Is Nate Silver a "troll" for looking at the polls, doing the analysis, and coming to the conclusion that Palin WILL run for President (regardless of your immature wish)?

Kelly said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Kelly said...

What is this is not the "official" PAC?

Chris Of Rights said...

Did you bother to read the article in question?

She never asked for any money. The money they were raising was to pay for a venue big enough for the expected crowd if she came.

You wasted my time and yours writing this post.

Charles said...

Sarah PAC (FEC Committee ID #: C00458588) is just ONE of her political action committees.

Charles said...

Chris of Rights:

Had YOU read the comments before posting, you would have seen that point was already made. Tom Schaller is simply clutching at any straw he can (even imaginary straws) to justify his side of a bet that Gov. Palin will not run for President.

George Taylor said...

"As much fun as ignoring the trolls can be, it's often just as much fun to play a little game called 'where's mule'?"

---

No it's not. Commenters who feed trolls--especially ones that appear whenever the topic turns to Sarah or Rush--make blogs unreadable for folks who enjoy the enlightened swapping of ideas.

Charles said...

George Taylor:

I'm sorry for not appearing more often. Perhaps you comment on every single thread, so good for you. The only threads that have caught my attention have been the ones I have commented on.

Tony C. said...

Palin Is Just Working the Wink

Seriously, she is an almost-beauty queen that used a hot body and pretty face to get elected governor, and she took the VP job as a gift of instant celebrity, and now like any pretty actress or pretty singer or whateva, she is working it until it runs out and collecting a few million along the way.

She is not a whore any more than is Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan or Britney Spears; or George Clooney or Brad Pitt for that matter. Making money off of letting people ogle you or fantasize over you isn't sex for pay; it is just what we call "entertainment," and that is what most of politics and news and commentary has become, just another division within the entertainment industry.

Palin is just like a pop music star; you shouldn't take any words that come out of her mouth as a serious reflection of what she thinks. Britney doesn't really want your body, and Palin (as her own family shows) doesn't really give a shit about family values or compassionate government or whether Obama hangs out with terrorists: It's all just part of exploiting the poor dumb bastards into buying the book, paying for the speech, or funding her new wardrobe.

That's why she stumbled in the Katie Couric interviews, she isn't really thinking anything, she just wants to perform the memorized scripts like the pop diva wants to sing the memorized lyrics, and just like the diva, if the music machine glitches or she is forced into unexpected territory, she comes off as brain dead.

it was a dangerous situation when she might have been elected, but now she is just another chick making money off of, "Don't you want to fuck me?"

(And no, I don't.)

Charles said...

Keep in mind on one of those previous threads YOU said...

@Charles

Bravo for consistency. But why outlaw only no-fault divorces? Why not all divorces?

October 22, 2009 11:50 AM

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/10/arguments-against-gay-marriage.html#comment-7212323400945622704

(so much for YOU staying "on topic" there too).

Mick said...

Jesus Christ, Charles. What is that, 19 posts in two hours?

Charles said...

Slow Friday.

Charles said...

By the way, I never claimed that sick people and voters in CT who want and need health care are a "mob" either.

norman_swingvoter said...

Tony C. said...
Palin Is Just Working the Wink

I think you've hit the nail on the head. As long as this babe has adoring fans and can make millions from them, I can't believe she will seriously run for President. If, God forbid, she should run for President and somehow be elected, I hope she has a great pick for Vice-President. He or she will probably finish her term after the going gets rough and she walks.

Charles said...

norman_swingvoter:

What would you think of a Palin-Romney ticket?

shiloh said...

Will palin run? Hey look at her party of No! competition er lack thereof.

No, she won't. Why? because everyone wants her to, the press, the wingers, the Dems and she, being the maverick among mavericks lol, will decide it wouldn't be prudent lol

as the quitter said re: Alaska, she can do more good er damage on the sidelines ...

bottom line, she is the most interesting loser the conservatives have going at present, such is the sorry state of their party and palin is working it for all it's worth. No surprise.

She and Todd are the Jon and Kate of politics! ;) ie Todd should be screwing around soon, if not already ...

markymark said...

Charles said
'Sarah PAC (FEC Committee ID #: C00458588) is just ONE of her political action committees'
-------------------------

Then why does the SarahPAC website claim

'SarahPAC.com is the ONLY political action committee authorized by Sarah Palin.'
http://www.sarahpac.com/

Charles said...

markymark:

Because there were FAKE websites out there purporting to be her political action committee (there's also a LEGITIMATE legal defense fund and, as I pointed out, a new "Stand Up For America" PAC). Any more questions?

Eusebio Dunkle said...

Romney is too smart to team up with that idiot.

Charles said...

There were a bunch of other "MCCAIN-PALIN" political action committees last year, of course (FEC Committee ID #: C00453738 being just one of those too).

Charles said...

Eusebio Dunkle:

If she won the GOP nomination, you think that Romney would refuse to run as her VP? Do you also think that Romney would have turned down McCain offering him the VP spot last year?

norman_swingvoter said...

Charles said...
norman_swingvoter:

What would you think of a Palin-Romney ticket?

I would not vote for any ticket with Palin on it as I feel the risk for America would be too high if she were elected. However, I feel that Romney actually has enough experience to be President. I would bet he would have done a better job if he had been elected instead of bush. Actually at this time I don't vote republican. I know a fair number of conservatives and read the Richmond-Times Dispatch in Virginia. I am fed up with how far right the Virginia republican party has moved. When you tell me you are morally superior to me and don't want me and folks like me in your party, don't expect me to show up and vote for your candidates. Wackos in editorials and letters to the editor have said exactly this so I don't vote republican at this time.

Charles said...

norman_swingvoter:

Do you think that you are morally superior to Adolf Hitler?

EmonOkari said...

I don't blame her one bit for taking the opportunities that life presented, thus setting up her family for the rest of their lives.

And if she chooses to run for President, she'll face similar primary questions, critique, and pressure that all candidates face. Probably even more. The American Public will get to see it all unfold, and then the electorate will decide.

Take out all the glamor, glitz, and buzz, and like Obama in 2008, Mrs. Palin will rise or fall on her own merits. Thats the American Way.

Just John said...

Every time Sarah Palin opens her mouth, an angel gets his wings. Or an independent leaves the GOP. It's one of those two.
Keep talkin' Sarah!

Charles said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Charles said...

Oh, I see, Just John is not here to discuss the topic, but rather to simply snipe at someone he insists could "never" be elected President anyhow. Fine.

Does anyone else want to discuss the topic?

markymark said...

Actually Charles a little digging around gives us the answer. The forthcoming Stand up for america PAC will be an issue PAC, rather than a candidate PAC. (Though it doesn't exist yet).

Incidentally in my quick googling of this whole thing I found this
http://www.standupamericapac.com/

Which is, wonderfully, an anti Michelle Bachman PAC.

Charles said...

I never made a distinction between "issue" or "candidate" PAC -- as I understand it, "Stand Up For Our Nation" paperwork has already been filed with the FEC to coincide with the book tour -- I did see that "Stand Up America" PAC too.

norman_swingvoter said...

Charles said...
norman_swingvoter:

Do you think that you are morally superior to Adolf Hitler?

Of course and to not waste time here is my response to your next statement. My conservative friends compare Obama to Hitler. As I have told them, that is an incorrect comparison. Obama is closest to Reagan. While their politics are not the same, they are both inspirational leaders. Neither is evil like Hitler and the comparison is silly.

shrinkers said...

Gods willing, Palin will actually run in 2012. If there is any justice, Tina Fey will come out of retirement, and we'll have some of the best political satire of the decade. I'm not sure if Palin would choose a buckethead like Bachmann for a veep, or try for something that looks respectable like Mittens - I suspect an opportunist like Pawlenty would be able to stroke her ego sufficiently.

Palin is definitely one of the best things to happen to the Democratic party. She's one of the forces shoving the Republicants farther to the right - thus helping to marginalize them, and force them to contract still further. I think it's good and healthy that Dems continue to make a point of her, helping to keep her in the public eye. The more exposure she gets, the better for Dems.

Charles said...

Hey, I've been on this site since the IA/NH primaries or so. Kinda sucks I now have to preface all my posts with a comment that I'm not THAT Charles. I'm the German and moderate Charles! :)

>Palin's in it for the money. Her resignation, which was an act of presidential ambitioncide, is all the evidence you'll ever need. It's hard to blame her.

Indeed. She's now the Lindsey Lohan of politics. And she's raking in the money as much as her celebrity will allow. As much as I don't like her politics and her over-the-top rhetoric, I really don't fault her for cashing in.

That being said, I think she isn't being particularly smart about it. Had she been less impatient and not ruined her brand irredeemably by resigning her governorship, I think she could have cashed in A LOT more.

Sure, perhaps she would have had to first take up some debt because of her legal troubles, but that's peanuts if you're a strong brand.

But hey, Palin's Palin. She got this bleepin' golden thing and - much as Blago - had to milk it without any delay.

Palin's really a voyeuristic reality show for us political junkies. I guess it's a guilty pleasure as it's inseparable from a certain degree of self-congratulatory smugness mingled with schadenfreude. That's the menu for liberals. For conservatives the Palin drug is the sharing in her asserted victimhood. She becomes a symbol of right-wing cultural grievances.

Either way, the obsession with Palin is very trashy. But this trashy brand is a unique selling-point.

So in a way one might say she's playing it right. Being a respectable politician would perhaps not make for as sexy a brand. Perhaps she had enough self-awareness that she couldn't sell the "respectable" brand and made a conscious choice to go "down-market". :)

Charles said...

My father's side of the family is from Germany, or are you saying you are currently a German citizen?

Sedi said...

Charles said...
Hey, I've been on this site since the IA/NH primaries or so.

Um, no you haven't. This site wasn't up then. Nate did a series of fantastic posts on DailyKos (under the name Poblano) leading up to Super Tuesday, and then started this site a few weeks after that. There was no 538.com back during the IA caucus and NH primary. I just wanted to make that correction. The rest of your post was pretty spot on, I think.

DanAtCA said...

I can already see it. Ads with her face and the word "QUITTER" pasted on top of it. And this isn't just in the general election, its going to come in the primaries too. I just don't think she has any political future given what she did in Alaska. Nobody votes for a quitter.

Pooch said...

Long time reader, first time poster here...

I don't doubt that Palin runs in 2012, but its looking more and more now like she would run as a third party candidate (Maybe she can create The "Tea Party"?). If so, that can only help dems in 2012.

Jenny said...

If Hillary Clinton did this four years ago, the Press corp. would have gone ballistic.

greatone98040 said...

Palin's brand was hurt?

Not according to the most recent CNN poll:

65% believe she's not a typical politician
64% consider her a role model
56% believe she cares about people like you (a question with which Republicans typically struggle)
55% believe she's honest and trustworthy

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/10/27/rel15k.pdf

greatone98040 said...

More from the CNN/Opinion Research poll:

The country is split as to whether it generally agrees with Palin on issues it cares about (48/50).

That's pretty much the same split that is facing Obama where 48% of the country agrees with Obama on the issues that matter with 51% saying no.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/10/20/cnn-poll-half-the-country-disagrees-with-obama-on-issues/

So the country doesn't believe she's any further to the right than it believes Obama is too far to the left. A fair reading of the CNN polling data is that a solid majority of the country admires and likes Palin but doesn't believe she's qualified for the top job (unless you guys think CNN/Opinion Research Corporation is a right-wing polling outfit).

Pragmatus said...

Oh nobody on the left who stops and thinks about it wants Sarah Palin to go away. She may be a train wreck, but as long as she is fulminating discord within the GOP she’s like paid advertising for the DNC.

If Hoffman wins in NY-23, it will serve to aggravate the split that is developing in the heart of the GOP. The idea that you can be a moderate and a Republican is being strangled to death, and every progressive/liberal across the country should be doing everything to encourage this.

The inevitable result of vicious, divisive politics is that it eventually consumes those who practice it. The GOP turned to Newt Gingrich twenty years ago in order to fashion a successful electoral strategy through all-out attack politics. Its first big victim was Gingrich himself, and now the poison has eaten its way right up to the top ranks of the party. The GOP is now locked in a death struggle with itself—should provide much interesting spectacle over the next few years.

DCM in FL said...

GREAYT ONE ???

your cherry-picked poll #'s for Palin are questionable...

when the lede for the CNN poll reads:

'CNN Poll: 7 in 10 say Palin not qualified to be president'

and the text reads:

"More than seven in 10 Americans think Sarah Palin is not qualified to be president, according to a new national poll.

Seventy-one percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Wednesday morning believe the former Alaska governor and 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee is not qualified to be president, with 29 percent saying she does have the credentials to serve in the White House. Republicans appear split, with 52 percent saying she's qualified and 47 percent disagreeing with that view."

just sayin'...

in terms of this post & future electability [not favorability], Palin's Q #'s are in the tank imho...

WV - WORTA [worta pile of _______]

greatone98040 said...

DCM,

So you don't think it's relevant that an overwhelming majority of the country believes Palin is a good role model for women according to the CNN/Opinon Research Corportion poll? Or that the same poll found a solid majority of the country believes she's honest and trustworthy and cares about people like them, two questions where Republicans typically struggle?

I'm just telling you the numbers because Tom Schaller won't tell them to you. You guys are better off sticking with an honest liberal analyst like Blumenthal at pollster.com

greatone98040 said...

DCM,

You also didn't dispute my point from the poll that the country doesn't see Palin as too far to the right anymore than it sees Obama too far to the left.

Obama is 48/51 on the question
Palin is 48/50

I'm just citing you poll numbers that barely anybody on your side will tell you.

Pragmatus said...

“great” one…

If you think Sarah Palin is highly regarded across the country, and could be a viable presidential candidate for 2012, I wish you all the power in the world. I say you should start now giving money to her PAC, or maybe you can help bankroll her appearances around the country promoting herself, since apparently it is going to cost the faithful dearly to hear her outline how terrific she is.

Sarah Palin—God’s gift to progressive politics.

Sarah Loving said...

Palin's plan is to threaten a third-party run, thereby splitting the GOP and dooming it to failure. Since she's first and foremost a grifter, she figures all she has to do to get a nifty payout is threaten to take all the hockey moms with her. You know the: Crazification Factor- The belief that a certain portion of the population is just plain crazy, first posited by John Rogers, with the number at 27%. (via Balloon Juice)

She'll be paid a heft sum to go the F*%& away, which she will most definitely do if Levi and or http://www.themudflats.net/ don't manage to drag her down first

DCM in FL said...

GREAT

again, you are cherry-picking your data - and intentionally choosing to ignore the most pertinent.

IF 71% deem your dear Sarah to be 'unqualified' AND she has quit her political job to go rogue - meaning she can no longer prove her bonafides... sorta begs the question, no ?

on the other hand, even many liberals such as I do not HATE the poor clueless gal, so some may throw her a bone on other issues [out of pity perhaps]

same was true for John McCain - his personal #'s scored high, often higher than Obama's... and no doubt he was 'qualified' to be POTUS, but then he lost anyway so the #'s you are desperately clutching at are ephemeral [halloween reference] & an illusion that would be burst in a long electoral cycle when Sarah would be subjected to even more scrutiny

she is now a 'quitter' & I doubt she could ever be rehabbed from that label which limits her appeal to the base of the CONs imho

greatone98040 said...

Pragmatus,

So I take it you have no response to the CNN/Opinion Research Corportion numbers showing that 64%of adults consider Palin a good role model fro women, 56% believe she cares about people like you, and 55% consider her honest and trustworthy?

I'm just citing poll data. You are the one engaging in non-responses.

greatone98040 said...

DCM,

"Throwing a bone?" Is that really your explanation as to these poll numbers?

It's not just a couple people throwing a bone. It's an overwhelming majority of poll respondents throwing bones. I'd guess close to 70% of indies answered affirmatively on that question pertaining to "good role model for women" since she's at 64% overall.

By the way, the question about qualifications was asked last if you look at the PDF that I linked. But then again, that would require too much work for you considering that you have provided the theory that people are just throwing bones to pollsters.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/10/27/rel15k.pdf

greatone98040 said...

DCM,

Forget the last paragraph I wrote there but my point stands.

It appears that the PDF indicates that Question 47 was asked in a random order.

DCM in FL said...

GREAT

jeez, you got it BAD for Sarah...

ok, compare Palin's personal [not political] polling #'s to Laura Bush's...

Laura's 'favorables' were/are almost off the chart in positive territory. and some GOOPers wanted to run her [same with grandma Barbara, remember ?]

BUT just having high favorables does NOT make one a viable political candidate for POTUS - often it is a reflection of other issues...

Laura cam across as a nice [& quiet] enough librarian - and in comparison to her worthless, pea-brained husband she was likeable & considered a role model for women, etc...

BUT that is a long, long way from making Laura or Barbara Bush or Palin a legit POTUS candidate for the vast majority of the electorate [imho]

and all YOU hqave to cling to are the 'personabilities' in the CNN poll #'s - not the electability #'s...

plus look at hoe she left AK - and her AK ratings had tanked too so she has nowhere to go except rogue & sell her ass[ets]...

greatone98040 said...

DCM,

Okay, you made a point with which I agree.

You can admire someone but not believe that person is qualified for the presidency. This poll suggests that an overwhelming majority of the country admires Palin but does not believe she's qualified for the presidency.

If that is the argument you are making, I'd agree that is where the country views Palin. Assuming that we agree on that point, where we'd disagree is on whether Palin can change that because you probably need both: Americans that view your personal characteristics favorably and qualifications for the presidency.

Keep in mind too that the exit poll showed that only 50% of the country believed Obama to have the qualifications for the presidency.

However, that's a different argument than the one you made previously about throwing bones to pollsters.

DCM in FL said...

GREAT

research Laura Bush's poll #'s...

then tell me Palin's are so great in comparison...

for example, see Gallup:

January 14, 2009
'Laura Bush Leaves White House as Popular Figure'

"The latest USA Today/Gallup poll finds 76% of Americans saying they have a favorable opinion of first lady Laura Bush. The public has viewed her very positively during George W. Bush's entire term as president, with her favorable ratings ranging between 63% and 80%."

"Laura Bush is rated more positively by Republicans (89%) than by independents (76%) or Democrats (66%). But all three groups have a very positive impression of her.

In contrast, only Republicans (77%) have an overall favorable view of the president, given that just 37% of independents and 11% of Democrats have a positive opinion of him."

and she was not as popular as Barbara...

read more at: http://www.gallup.com/poll/113782/laura-bush-leaves-white-house-popular-figure.aspx

greatone98040 said...

As for Laura Bush, she polled higher than just about anyone in America. She is miles ahead of Michelle Obama in terms of how Americans viewed her personal qualities.

greatone98040 said...

I actually don't recall Barbara Bush polling that well. She was ahead of Hillary and probably ahead of Michelle but Laura Bush was the model First Lady if you view the First Lady role as someone every American should respect and admire.

Americans do not and did not view First Ladies Obama and Clinton in the same fashion.

Peter K said...

Sarah Palin a good role model for women? Hell yeah!

Every woman should look at Sarah Palin and say to herself "I that clueless bint is as successful as she is, there's no reason I can't do better."

The woman is an inspiration.

DCM in FL said...

GREAT

OK, sorry if I offended you about the bones... you took it wrong.

my point was that even an opponent can give a 'favorable' rating to someone they might never vote for [or the wife of such a person]

just having high favorables does not make one electable was all I was trying to say...

BUT I personally do hope that Palin does run - and lose - because it would certainly give the electorate a clear choice rather than lesser of 2 middling evils as is often the case...

against Palin et al, I believe that most INDs & swings will flock to a decent DEM

g'day

Bart DePalma said...

The left's ongoing fear of Sarah Palin is duly noted.

This is now the 53d 538.com thread on Palin with nearly another 100 posts so far on the first day. In contrast, there are 7 threads on Romney, 6 on Huckabee and 4 on Pawlenty.

What is it about Palin that drives you folks absolutely batsh!t?

Pan said...

C'mon, DCM, greatone has a point, even if it's a moot point when it comes to election. As someone who is, to put it mildly, "not a fan" of Palin, these numbers are surprising. Especially considering they actually sort of conflict with one another. Think about it:

64% consider her a role model
55% believe she's honest and trustworthy


In other words, there's about 9% who think she's dishonest and not trustworthy, and yet they consider her a role model. Seriously, how does that even make sense?

Maybe it's with the distinction that "a role model" is not the same as "a positive role model." You can actually be a negative role model.

And the comparison to Laura Bush is silly. She's not a politician. Even as a First Lady, she fly very low under the radar. It's easy to be popular when people never hear your opinions on the issues.

So, maybe greatone is just reading too much by equating that 64% with people liking her. Ditto with the "not a typical politician" number. I also don't consider Jim Traficant a "typical" politician. Hell, I don't even consider Dick Cheney to be a "typical" politican. It seems like if you wanted to pick one of those numbers as actually saying something definitely positive about Palin, it'd have to be the 55% and 56% numbers.

Pragmatus said...

greatone…

A poll result can be found to support any claim, not matter how ludicrous. Citing a single poll is useless—if you want to find out how people think you have to gather as much poll data as you can, throw out the obvious outliers, then look at the mean numbers of those that are left.

Again, if you think Sarah Palin will be a viable national candidate in 2012 you’re not paying attention to the full picture.

If you want her to be a viable national candidate then you should give her PAC and war chest and speaking-fee-fund every cent you can. I think you’d be throwing your money away, but there’s no law that says you have to listen to what I say.

DCM in FL said...

PETER

I had to look up 'bint'...

Bart DePalma said...

BTW, Hoffman went from last to first place on the strength of a swarm of new voters and pocketed about a quarter million in small donations in less than two weeks after Sarah endorsed him.

That should give you more than a little pause.

Sarah is going to be exceedingly popular among GOP candidates for Congress in 2010.

Pragmatus said...

Barbie De Palma…

Uh—keep the bat shit on your side of the fence, please.

Pan said...

@BDP:

Did you bother to pause and consider that of the first 100 comments, 10% of them were from greatone and 7% were from DCM in a back and forth? Please don't confuse counting internet arguments with polling.

Mike said...

Alon Levy said...
Brian: you're right that Edmund Burke told his constituents he was going to vote his conscience rather than theirs. He got tossed out of office the next election, perhaps because of this.

But the questions people have raised about Lieberman are different. Lieberman has never been right-wing or even moderate on domestic issues like health care. His record is liberal; his constituents are liberal. So there has to be some explanation for why he's suddenly opposing the public option.
_______

One word: Debt.

Mike said...

Sacto Joe said...
I really don't give two flying farts what a Senator's "rights" are. I do care that they represent the majority opinion of their state.

If not, then it ain't democracy. It's meritocracy or some other shit.
____________

Senators are not supposed to represent the majority opinion of their state. They are supposed to represent their state. (We have the House of REPRESENTATIVES to represent the people!)

If you think it through, given that this Healthcare monstrosity trashes Medicare, thus pushing a chunk of the cost back to the States, not a single Senator should actually vote for it. (Another unfunded mandate anyone?)

The 17th amendment was the beginning of the end of the Republic.

Note: Republic! We do NOT live in a democracy!

(Really, does anyone around here actually understand the principles upon which the country was founded?!)

Pragmatus said...

Bart…

Sorry about the “Barbie”. I was thinking of Palin when I composed that post.

Again you go with the pie-in-the-sky predictions. Sarah Palin is…

♦ Functionally illiterate
♦ Incurious
♦ Vindictive and prone to vendettas
♦ Disastrous in interviews
♦ A quitter who couldn’t even finish a single term as a state governor
♦ Someone who has made a lot of enemies in the GOP

But please! Send her money. Surely a flourishing law practice like yours has carloads of money to waste on—er, make that donate to—her politic future. Remember, there is no limit to the amount of cash you can dump into her PAC.

Mike said...

The original article is a good, but is flawed. The assumption is Palin is running in 2012, and that she is running as a Republican.

I don't think 2012 is viable for her, unless as someone else mentioned, the TEA party movement has the country behind it, because of the damage done to her image by the irresponsible media. She needs some rebuild time. And if she IS set on 2012, it's unlikely she can secure the Republican nomination anyway.

I'd put the odds of both being the case at less than 5% right now. Things can change though. There is one scenario I do see it happening. I'll reserve that for another time.

Bart DePalma said...

Tom:

For Palin to show up in Iowa looking for a check, rather than bearing one from SarahPAC--which brought in three-quarters of a million dollars in the first half of this year and has already drawn scrutiny from FEC--means that she is either the most dim-witted presidential aspirant ever, which I seriously doubt, or her interests clearly tilt toward cashing in on her star-power. Although one might ask for a $100,000 speaking fee from a giant corporation or trade association, requesting it from a non-profit 501(c)3 group--no less one that promotes conservative family values and is based in Iowa--is about as stupid as it gets.

Did you read past the first two paragraphs of this Politico hit piece? From the second page of the Politico article:

There is no indication that the former governor has requested a fee or that her decision whether to attend is being influenced by whether she’ll be paid.

The story here is that an Iowa group is willing to pay Palin $100 grand to get the hottest draw in the GOP to appear at their event.

I am assuming that you will amend your post with a retraction and apology.

Pragmatus said...

If Joe Lieberman objects to any health reform bill he should vote against it.

By not allowing it to even come to the floor (i.e. his threat to support a filibuster) he is deciding for everybody across the country what the outcome should be.

That’s where he’s wrong.

Mike said...

greatone98040 said...
As for Laura Bush, she polled higher than just about anyone in America. She is miles ahead of Michelle Obama in terms of how Americans viewed her personal qualities.
__________

If I recall, she left the White House with a 91% approval rating. I think her only negative was who she mas married too... :-)

Mike said...

Pragmatus said...
If Joe Lieberman objects to any health reform bill he should vote against it.

By not allowing it to even come to the floor (i.e. his threat to support a filibuster) he is deciding for everybody across the country what the outcome should be.

That’s where he’s wrong.
____________

Riiiiight... the same way Democrats in the Senate spent 6 years blocking Bush's judicial appointments?

Puhlease...

DCM in FL said...

MIKE

please explain how you figure that HealthCare Reform will 'trash' Medicare ???

that comes across as hyberole [to be kind]...

but if you oppose meaningful healthcare reform, then how can you justify Medicare in the first place ???

we 'should' be getting universal Medicare for all citizens imho

Pragmatus said...

Mike…

Please, what was the “the damage done to [Palin’s] image by the irresponsible media”? Near as I can tell all the media did was report her inanities. I give you this.

Sorry, but you can’t fix stupid. You can’t even blame it on anyone else (i.e. the media) when it’s this obvious.

Pan said...

@BDP: "Did you read past the first two paragraphs of this Politico hit piece?"

Did you read past the first dozen comments on this story? Or bother do simply do a find on the phrase "no indication" just in case maybe it had been posted (twice!) already?

You've pretty much put yourself on the same level as Tom in that department.

Pragmatus said...

DCM in FL…

“The Destruction of Medicare” is just another GOP scare talking-point, equally absurd as the “Death Panel” claim.

Nobody with any sense believes that reform will inflict any harm whatever on Medicare or the people who receive it (including yours truly).

slasher14 said...

Can anybody tell me who was the last person to run for vice president, lose, and then be elected vice president later on? I can think of only one -- FDR lost for vice president in 1920 and won the job in 1932. And it took 25% unemployment to do that.

There's a reason for this: the vice president is, at bottom, the choice of a single man -- the presidential candidate. Obviously his vote is not cast lightly, but it is also rarely cast for someone who has their own national power base, because people who have one have usually pissed off enough people to rule them out. In point of fact, only once since 1900 has an ELECTED vice president subsequently won the top job, and that was Bush 41, who ran a credible presidential campaign of his own in 1980 and was tapped by Reagan to unite what was then a divided Republican Party.

None of these considerations applies to Palin. She was more or less unknown until McCain named her, and had no political base other than a handful of neocons. She wasn't McCain's first choice, or anyone else's, and she was chosen not because the Republican Party was divided, but because McCain's first choice was so far outside the locus of solid party unity that he had to choose someone else. He chose someone who was not a "maverick," but was totally in step with the 2008 Convention's majority on every issue you can think of.

To believe the Republicans will nominate Palin for President in 2008 is to believe that the party will be conceding the election to the Democrats.

greatone98040 said...

Pan,

REad the poll again. The question asked was whether one considered her a "good role model for women."

I suspect Obama's "good role model" number is also higher than his honesty and trustworthy number. You can think he's a liar but at the same time, concede that he's a good role model in general for African-Americans.

DCM in FL said...

PRAG

thanks for the link to that blast from the past...

and they calm she is articulate & speaks for the common person - Palin insteads proves every time she opens her mouth that she cannot keep her thoughts straight or even string together a coherent sentence.

I will take BHO's thoughtful pauses & uhms anyday to someone who knows not what she says... lol

I actually expected your link to be to highlights from palin's great turkey slaughter & how oblivious she was to the horror of it all [gobble, gobble]

now THAT was Sarah on a good day, eh ???

greatone98040 said...

Regarding NY-23, it's not unreasonable to claim that her endorsement was a boost to Hoffman.
Just look at the trends for the Kos/Research 2K poll.

You cannot say it was the Weekly Standard Incident that moved voters towards Hoffman because part of the Kos poll was conducted after that incident and Kos himself said HOffman polled worse in the days after the Weekly Standard endorsement.

http://washingtonindependent.com/64952/ny-23-so-is-hoffman-surging

“There really was not any major shift after each night among any of the candidates,” said Moulitsas. On the final days of polling, which happened after Scozzafava’s blunders, Owens was at 34 percent, Scozzafava was at 31 percent, and Hoffman was at 21 percent.

DCM in FL said...

ok, her is a link to Palin's Turkey Slaughter

[and the YouTube video intro is by Stewie !!!]

'Palin pardons turkey at turkey slaughter'

"Clueless Gov. Sarah Palin is interviewed in front of an ongoing turkey slaughter immediately following her pardon of the only lucky turkey."

at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5qR0aff0Kk

GOOD TIMES !!! nominate Sarah Palin, PLEASE !!!

greatone98040 said...

The last Kos poll was taken between 10/19 and 10/21. The endorsement from Palin came on the 22nd.

What other significant event happened besides the endorsement that would swing Hoffman from a distant third-place to now the favorite on Intrade?

Hoffman went from 27% with Republicans to 41% with them while Scozzafava went from 46% to 31% in the Kos/Research 2K poll. Since Republicans comprise at least 42% of the electorate this November in the district, that's a huge shift.

Pan said...

@greatone

I didn't read the poll the first time, so I'm damn sure not going to read it again. ;)

I was just going off your representation of the poll. Okay, so I fall back to my previously stated position that the poll answers conflict with each other. I do not agree that it's consistent to say that a person is not honest or trustworthy and to also say that person is a good role model.

Your reasoning and example for that one is flawed at best and a bit racist at worst.

DCM in FL said...

GREAT

I doubt if anyone on this site would not agree that Palin and her rogue pals like Beck [& now Pataki] have shifted momentum to Hoffman.

BUT the metrics were all in place for Scozz [R] to win this election in the neighborhood of 55-45.

Hoffman promised to support her & reneged...

PLUS he does not even reside in the district - so he is major carpetbagger & a one note candidate...

Hoffman could have done the honorable thing & challenged her in2010 - AS A RESIDENT...

instead, there is probably a 50-50 chance now that Owens might win a RED seat...

so, who wins here ??? the DEMs win no matter on style points at least [no matter the outcome] as the GOP cuts itself & bleeds profusedly to a lingering death knell imho

WV - wangly [sounds like a Colbertism]

Dwight said...

@DCM in FL

reporter: "...any concerns about State programs being on the chopping block..."

While in the background another Tom is getting loaded into the chute. LOL.


P.S. On the otherhand WTF is with this "don't let the kids see" and blurring out the picture? That's crap. I can almost get that for strict vegetarians and vegans, but the rest of us? If you can't bear to observe a turkey getting the chop (and domestic turkeys are about the least sentient farm animal out there) then maybe it's time you gave up your omnivore status. :/

DCM in FL said...

OK, it is LATE on a weekend night & still no one has commented on Tom's 'winks' reference in terms of...

>>> Palin as 'minx' and of course those '[G]MILF' supporters...

but then that would be so very wrong [who am I kidding ?]

get the lipstick out

greatone98040 said...

Pan,

It didn't take long for someone to pull the race card from the bottom of the deck.

I feel that Obama is dishonest and untrustworthy. However, I would conede that he is a good role model for African-Americans in general because he has other qualities of which I approve other than honesty and truthfulness.

greatone98040 said...

DCM,

Red seat? The Cook PVI index for the seat is R+1. Obama won 52% in the district and Gore kept Bush under 50% in the district in 2000. Kerry won 47% in the district.

DCM in FL said...

DWIGHT

her responses were just so off the wall -"gettin thru & uh & plummetted so greatly & plans like that that have to do with duh alaskans that is what my plans are about all around... with great appreciation for ________" or something like that...

she speaks so circularly when unscripted & is completely incoherent - but she smiles alot and appears abso-freaking-lutely clueless since she keeps saying how much FUN she is having as the turkeys behind her are beheaded...

priceless !!! pass me some

WV - gronism [this video is]

DCM in FL said...

GREAT

you are talking about regular elections - and this is an OFF year special election with low turnout...

the metrics change in favor of the GOP in this type of district election in 2009, which is exactly why the regular GOP candidate had a tail wind...

and that is also why Hoffman 'might' yet prevail because it is an off-year special election with low turn-out

consensus is that Hoffman would NOT have won in 2008 as the GOP nominated candidate, and who knows what might happen in 2010 or beyond...

BUT your 'IND' candidate does have a legit shot only because of the circumstances [similar to Ventura in MN]

Obi-Beeg said...

Charles,

The fact you are excited about Palin running reinfores liberals how fractured and marginalized the Republican party really is. the Republican party should be rallying behind fiscal conservatives that believe in small government and lower taxes. Palin in an Evangelican and has an expensive social agenda. 75% of this country cannot relate to her. If your dreams are realized and she does win the nomination your party will be a laughing stock. Your ideology is making you blind to the harshness of reality.

Obi-Beeg said...

My comment applies to BdP as well.

greatone98040 said...

"75% of this country cannot relate to her."

Really? How much of the 75% that allegedly don't relate to her is part of the 64% that believes she's a "good role model for women."

If we go by issues, 48% believe that Palin "generally agrees with you on issues you care about." Interestingly, 48% also believe Obama agrees with them on "issues that matter most to them."

See for yourself below. I'm not usually someone to put up a number without providing support for how I arrived at a number.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/10/27/rel15k.pdf

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/10/20/cnn-poll-half-the-country-disagrees-with-obama-on-issues/

greatone98040 said...

Pan,

Also, I love when you guys pull out the race card.

Here's a chilling poll number for you. Only 55% of African-Americans have a favorable opinion of the United States military. Only 53% of 18-29 year-olds have a favorable opinion of the United States military.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/holidays/may_2009/75_have_favorable_opinion_of_u_s_military_this_memorial_day

Of course, you'll probably claim I'm being a racist for citing poll results that you don't like. It's all there in the Rasmussen crosstabs (subscription required).

Come on bro, pull out the race card.

DCM in FL said...
This post has been removed by the author.
DCM in FL said...

GREAT

that's funnie, right ???

what is 'chilling' about low approval ratings for the military from AA or the young ???

personally, I am surprised that they are that HIGH under the circumstances [war, torture, bad press, treatment of blacks & women & gays in uniform, etc,]

next you will probably say how 'shocking' it is that AA & other groups have low approval of the police...lol

'approval' #'s on generic issues are really rather meaningless imho

but 'chilling' ??? only in a neo-con self-centered status-quo worldview

Obi-Beeg said...

She can run on any conservative platform she chooses and hide behind any number of issues, but when she stands up in front of america in a debate and when she is asked the tough questions during interviews, she will fall apart again and again. No amount of practice or hard work can change that (not the sharpest tool if you get my drift). She closes her public appearances to the press because she doesn't want the public to hear what she has to say. She knows the majority of us simply won't be able to follow her incoherent ideological political sermons. Conservatives, the writing is on the wall. Your party has been pandering to far right social conservatives too long and as it stands right now, your party is going to be split right down the middle. You should be doing everything to alienate people like Palin and looking for candidates that have rational ideas for cutting spending, reducing the size of government and adopting a foreign policy strategy that does not require wars on multiple fronts.

See, if you consider what I writing, I am stating that Republicans have something to offer America, and the right Republican could potentially be the best slution to some of the problems their Party created, but it is going to take honest introspection and the ability to make sacrifices (losses, tough love and integrity) in order to get candidates that practice what for so long they have preached. Question is do these candidates really exist, and can people like you let down your guard long enough for significant personal reflection

Pan said...

@greatone

I hereby withdraw my suspicions that your example was (and I said at worst) racist. I'm pretty sure you're just an idiot.

thestateofmyunion said...

Response to Bart DePalma, who asked why Palin makes people batshit crazy:
Bart, have you ever dealt with someone in authority who knew Jack s**t about their job or yours? Well, Palin is like that. She fell into the governorship and into the GOP vice presidential nomination. She is a grifter, a hypocritical, gag-me-with-a-spoon Caribou Airhead Barbie, so stoopid she is funny. She makes people crazy. And peoples' reactions to her are funny and entertaining--just read the COMMENTS here. I can displace my frustrations and be entertained simultaneously. So, let Palin and her delusional followers continue to think she matters. It's good for my mental health.

Mike in Maryland said...

I wonder how most people would answer a poll about their own mother?

How would they respond to such questions as:

- 'Is your mother a role model?'
- 'Do you believe your mother cares about people like you?'
- 'Do you believe your mother is honest and trustworthy?'

And then I wonder how most Americans would respond to questions such as:

- 'Do you honestly think your mother is qualified to be Mayor, Councilman, or other local official?'
- 'Would YOU vote for your mother, fully convinced she was the absolute best candidate for the office?'

I'm sure those last two questions would get a much, much lower positive response than the previous questions.

Mike in Maryland

DCM in FL said...

MinM

Cartman would answer your poll:

"HELLA N to the O !"

my departed mom [RIP] was a saint [unlike sarah]...

but I still wouldn't vote for her for any political office

Mike in Maryland said...

As to LIEberman:

Current polls show his constituents (i.e., the residents of Connecticut) favor a public option by a margin of 2-1 (a poll in late September by Quinnipiac put the numbers at 64% for, 30% against).

When LIEberman made his announcement, he stated that he was going to vote in accordance with the wishes of his constituents. Since so many insurance companies are headquartered in the state, and they are almost uniformly against the public option, does that mean he admitted he considers the insurance companies his constituents, not the people who elected him?

Mike in Maryland

greatone98040 said...

So Mike, are you saying that 55-64% of Americans view Sarah Palin in a similar fashion as they would view their own mothers? If so, I'd think that's quite a strong and positive connection she made with 55-64% of the electorate. Of course, the latter points that you make about qualifications represent a hurdle, despite the strong and positive connection.

I don't think it's a "woman thing" either. I'd like to see these same questions polled of both Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton. The latter probably didn't poll very well on these personal characteristics question a year and a half ago and the former, well, she probably is polling very poorly on these questions.

greatone98040 said...

Pan,

I hereby withdraw any suspicion that I had that you were not a race-baiter.

What do you think about the poll showing that 44% of African-Americans won't say that they have a favorable opinion of the military? Do you agree with DCM that African-Americans have a reason to have an unfavorable opinion of the military and police?

I sure as hell don't and guess what, neither do an overwhelming majority of Americans according to that poll I cited. The 44% of African-Americans that won't say they have a favorable opinon of the military are wildly out of touch with the rest of America that loves our troops.

There's a reason Republicans/conservatives blow you guys out among the military veterans in every presidential election year.

Mike in Maryland said...

NOT so great one:

I was just indicating how the question makes a difference, and that you cannot take the response for one question to be a predictor to the response you would get to another question.

If you cannot figure out that analogy, you ARE a stupid TROLL, on the same level of stupidity as the rider of a horse/donkey cross and the drinking of watered down wine, to name two of the TROLLs who have inhabited 538.com.

Mike in Maryland

Mike in Maryland said...

greatone98040 said...
There's a reason Republicans/conservatives blow you guys out among the military veterans in every presidential election year.

Is that why GOOPers start wars - to try to create a lot of veterans they can brain-wash into voting for the GOOPer Presidential candidates?

If so, they don't do a really great job of brain-washing, if, as you imply, they don't vote for the GOOPer candidates in non-Presidential election years.

BTW - nice job of trying to divert the discussion. It is about Sarah Barracuda, you know. I don't think she's a military veteran, and her son is still in the military (is he out of training? Did he even get through training?), so he's not yet a vet. And the column is NOT about Todd Palin, so don't try to bring him into the discussion. BTW - Todd Palin is NOT a veteran.

Mike in Maryland

Mike in Maryland said...

NOT so great one98040:

Is the '98040' an indication of your Zip Code? I thought the state of Washington had a better education system than what you demonstrate.

Mike in Maryland

Mike in Maryland said...

NOT so great one:

Do you think the German Jews of the late 1930s/1940s had a favorable of the German army? The German police? The German court system?

I wonder why they had the opinion they had? It couldn't have been prejudice, could it?

Mike in Maryland

shiloh said...

Jenny said...

If Hillary Clinton did this four years ago, the Press corp. would have gone ballistic.
~~~~~~~~~~


?!? If your saying, if Hillary quit and wouldn't go away like ms. mooseburger, then I totally agree as the wingers have and always will be fixated/obsessed w/Hillary.

And as someone who railed against HRC from 2003, when I started to comment at political blogs to 2008 for all sorts of reasons, just let me say I have changed my opinion 180 dgrees as she is a team player and very, very intelligent and politically astute, unlike Ms. Sarah.

and yes BDP, given the current sorry ass reality of the party of No! leadership, who else are political blogs gonna talk about as she is primo "National Enquirer' material, eh.

Sort of like saying, I'm shocked, shocked! there are mega Barack Obama threads at 538. ;)

She's all you got, Bart and hey she is a babe and ooh that wink! ;)

As I mentioned a couple mos. ago like to see palin pose in Playboy as she rises to her level of incompetence! :)

btw, has any Playboy centerfold ever quit ...

palin/bachmann 2012

p.s. the last applicable poll I saw had it 58/40 Obama over palin as again, actual candidates have to run against each other in a presidential election by staging a political campaign and answering national security questions, what a concept!

and intellectual/philosophical questions like what newspapers do you read?

and unfortunately for the quitter, one never gets a second chance to make a political first impression!

carry on

Jamison said...

In the history of the Iowa Caucus, there have been more than a few narcissistic, even delusional candidates from both parties (John Edwards, Rudy Giuliani, Joe Lieberman, Alan Keyes, etc.). None of these people have ever been deluded enough to try and shake down a room full of Iowa Precinct Captains. St. Sarah is so done it's not even funny. I'll be shocked if she wins so much as a single delegate in 2012.

Add to this the fact that Newt's credibility is sinking along with Scozzafava's campaign, and its starting to look like a Romney vs. Huckabee one-on-one for 2012.

Mike said...

Pragmatus said...
DCM in FL…

“The Destruction of Medicare” is just another GOP scare talking-point, equally absurd as the “Death Panel” claim.

Nobody with any sense believes that reform will inflict any harm whatever on Medicare or the people who receive it (including yours truly)
___________

Ummm... read the bill? The AP has confirmed that "Death Panels" are in it. Also, there's explicit language paying for abortions (another thing the Dems claim wont happen) and there's explicit language referring to waiting lists, rationing of care, etc, in order to avoid deficits in the system.

Really, you folks are so far up the Obama Administration's rear end, you'd believe anything.

I grew up under national health care in a country whose healthcare system is supposed to be great. You don't want it. You think you do, but you don't.

As for trashing Medicare, you simply can't cut $500 billion from the Medicare budget and NOT trash it.

Good grief, is everyone around here THAT stupid?!?!

Mike said...

Mike in Maryland said...
greatone98040 said...
There's a reason Republicans/conservatives blow you guys out among the military veterans in every presidential election year.

Is that why GOOPers start wars - to try to create a lot of veterans they can brain-wash into voting for the GOOPer Presidential candidates?

If so, they don't do a really great job of brain-washing, if, as you imply, they don't vote for the GOOPer candidates in non-Presidential election years.

BTW - nice job of trying to divert the discussion. It is about Sarah Barracuda, you know. I don't think she's a military veteran, and her son is still in the military (is he out of training? Did he even get through training?), so he's not yet a vet. And the column is NOT about Todd Palin, so don't try to bring him into the discussion. BTW - Todd Palin is NOT a veteran.
__________

Umm, another clueless person I see. Her son is already in Iraq, so yes, he's out of training, and yes, he's a vet.

Mike said...

Mike in Maryland said...
As to LIEberman:

Current polls show his constituents (i.e., the residents of Connecticut) favor a public option by a margin of 2-1 (a poll in late September by Quinnipiac put the numbers at 64% for, 30% against).

When LIEberman made his announcement, he stated that he was going to vote in accordance with the wishes of his constituents. Since so many insurance companies are headquartered in the state, and they are almost uniformly against the public option, does that mean he admitted he considers the insurance companies his constituents, not the people who elected him?
______________

The majority of Americans apparently favor a public option.

The majority of Americas oppose the public option on the table.

Does that allow your small, simple mind to grasp how he can vote AGAINST the bill yet still be voting WITH his constituents?

Matt said...

Mike: Lieberman said he'd vote against cloture on any legislation that includes any form of the public option. Rather different from saying he just doesn't like the public option as it appears in the current bill.

mak said...

Sarah will indeed run, but not as a Republican. She signaled as much with her recent endorsement of the Conservative in NY 23, whatever his name is.

She knows as well as everyone else in the country that she would be eaten alive if she repeatedly took the stage with the rest of the Republican field. So why subject herself to the indignity (and sinking of the myth) of a primary that would see her throttled and humiliated? Instead, she will run under some third party banner and travel the country barnstorming in front of friendly audiences of mouth breathers, probably selling t-shirts and signed copies of her books to better feather her nest. She may even attempt to get on stage with the eventual republican and democratic nominees for the decidedly softball presidential debates, but that probably won't happen, given the control of the parties over those affairs.

GROG said...

Mike,

Mike in Marlyand posts his filth, hatred and ignorance under the cover of early morning. He won't be up until around Noon or so when his Mom makes him get out of bed.

The thing to remember about this health care bill is that it has nothing to do with lowering costs. There simply is nothing in the bill that would make things more affordable.

This will drive up the cost of providing insurance, since they are providing for more people, and sicker people, and being forced to pay their bills, as well as being forced to provide some minimal coverage (such as preventive and maintenance matters) for no co-pay.

This bill is about one thing. Government control. Get as many additional to people to rely on government as possible. This is waht the Democratic Party relies on for survival.

Dwight said...

@Mike
Ummm... read the bill? The AP has confirmed that "Death Panels" are in it.

Did you read the bill draft it was in? If you did you could just quote it and/or reference the location in it, right? :)

Of course the "Death Panels" are in there but:
1) It was actually an addition by a Republican member of Congress (damn, misplaced the member name).
2) It was a reimbursement, yes an actual benefit, for patient initiated consulting for hospice planning.


The description given by Sarah Palin was a gross distortion of the entry. Either she was willfully lying, or she's got a real bad case of the no-read-so-guds, she hadn't read it listens to people that fall into one of the above categories.

Bart DePalma said...

thestateofmyunion said...

Response to Bart DePalma, who asked why Palin makes people batshit crazy: Bart, have you ever dealt with someone in authority who knew Jack s**t about their job or yours? Well, Palin is like that. She fell into the governorship and into the GOP vice presidential nomination. She is a grifter, a hypocritical, gag-me-with-a-spoon Caribou Airhead Barbie, so stoopid she is funny.

Politics is filled with morons and yet none of them draw 53 threads at 538.com, not to mention thousands more across the lefty blogosphere.

The truth is that the left saves its "You are stupid" smear for politicians that have or the left is afraid will kick their asses come election time. See Reagan and George II. Being called "stupid" by lefties is essentially a credential that you are now a contender.

GbThrone said...

While risking accusation that I live under a bridge and talk to goats...It seems that the Democratic Party base really wants one of three Republicans to be the '12 candidate: Romney, Huckabee, or Palin. The first two will arouse much vituperous comment due to their religious beliefs, the third due to her "on the right" political stances. This is similar to the '08 Republican hopes that Hillary Clinton would be the Democratic nominee, because she would have been very easy to attack.

Rick said...

I have a prediction: Sarah Palin is going to part ways with the GOP sooner rather than later: the tinfoil-hat community appeared to be useful to the GOP in the beginning, but is rapidly spinning beyond control. Observe how many former Bush supporters now claim never to have liked him in the first place. A non-Libertarian movement is taking root, albeit on a relatively minor scale.

However, these are the people who packed the stadiums during the McCain/Palin campaign days, formed Teabagging demonstrations, and are now against anything do do with government.

Palin exists for one thing only: the limelight. She misses those loving crowds from the McCain campaign days, and a great many of those people miss her.

She will (imo) reconnect with them very soon, and attempt, with as yet unpredictable levels of success, forging a new political party and running a spoiler campaign in '12.

My official prediction--not as an analyst, just an armchair observer--is that the new party will be dubbed something along the lines of The Patriot Party, and will garner 12-18% of the popular vote in '12, with perhaps as much as 6% in new voter registration.

I don't understand the appeal, but Palin has absolute magic among a certain heretofore unrepresented demographic in the US.

Anyhow, you heard it here first, as far as I know.

Bradford said...

BdP-

Go to youtube and watch this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75QSExE0jU

Then read this:

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/sarah_palin_polls_like_dan_qua.php

And then tell me how she is a viable candidate. I am not sure she even thinks she is viable, as she is taking speaking fees to talk in Iowa which is not the way a candidate does things.

Drowzee said...

As for the "Do liberals Fear Palin", I do not fear her, but I do fear what she stands for, namely, the end of science, the embracing of truly free market economics (what stops every corporation from either merging or engaging in price fixing to make the most profit? Who makes sure that the profit motive includes safety regulations?, etc.), the use of patriotism and loyalty oaths to demonize opposing views (like what happened in the Ba'ath party, and in the axis forces during WWII), the shutting down of all opposing voices (as happened to the democratic party during GWB's first term), and a return to the arrogance of thug diplomacy.

She's just a figurehead, but one who represents very scary ideals. I'm sure she'll end up representing a national Conservative party that splits off from the GOP. And more power to her for that; the faster it happens, the sooner it falls under its own idealistic weight, carrying Palin down with it.

Gatordad said...

Off topic, I know, but FYI...


Scozzafava drops out of NY 23

headline from Politico this morning

Juris said...

Re Palin's book advance, as has been noted it's probably a lot more than $1.25 million. In her case they wouldn't split it into three (initial contract, delivery of manuscript, final publication) perhaps because she has nothing to deliver on her own. This book is being assembled, not written; there's no evidence that she can write at all, much less that she had any time to "write a book."

Bradford said...

Gatordad-

Her dropping out is truly shocking, and it might push the Conservative candidate over the top, but I really wonder if that is good for Republicans nationally. Going farther right and ceding the center seems a road to a smaller party...

I also disagree with Nate, NY-23 is a pretty conservative district:

"Conventional wisdom suggests that while the North Country seat leans to Republicans in terms of registration -- as of April 2009 there were roughly 46,000 more GOPers than Democrats in the district -- there are simply not enough Republicans to split the base vote between Hoffman and Scozzafava and have either one win. (The district has long been represented by a Republican but President Obama carried it with 52 percent in 2008.)" WaPo

pantheragdl said...

Why do liberals post this crud?
Well, first off, I am not sure Nate is a liberal just because he can do simple and higher math. Once-upon-a-time, there were conservatives who could, too.

Personally, I am overjoyed to see this in the news and hope the Republicans are D-U-M enough to run her. Best thing they could do.

(I, you see, am a liberal) Obama in 2012!

shiloh said...

Rick said...

I don't understand the appeal, but Palin has absolute magic among a certain heretofore unrepresented demographic in the US.
~~~~~~~~~~


She's a babe er beauty queen w/a personality and yes Virginia, she can read a teleprompter ;) like no other and also give you several winks in the process! :)

She's cute and sassy and even though she has trouble answering simple questions her adoring throng will never forsake her 'cause well ... she's a babe!

Superficiality counts for a lot in politics and hey, real life. She's the current it girl. And as previously mentioned, look at her pathetic conservative competition ie there are no Reagan's on the horizon in the Rep party so she fills a vacuum quite nicely.

shma said...

@Bradford: I agree on all points. Too much has been made of the Cook PVI and not enough people have looked at the history of the three house races in this district (it came into being in 2003), where the Democratic candidate never got more than 37 percent. You can also look at the different parts of the current NY-23 and see how long it's been since a Democrat represented them. The answer is a long time. Owens could have won due to vote splitting between Scozzafava and Hoffman, but now I think Hoffman has it in the bag.

Gatordad said...

Bradford I don't think this is as nationally significant as everyone seems to think. The problem with all the prognostication is that it ignores a really salient fact...
Americans have short memories. Whatever pushes the '10 and particularly the '12 races will be what's happening 'on the ground' so to speak. The economy, the war, success or failure of legislation in the mean time. And it would be a mistake to conflate the anger at Bush and the reaction in '08 as a fundamental shift in political philosophy among the electorate. When asked to self identify as cons, mod, or liberal, those numbers haven't changed. Party identification and philosophical bent are not the same thing. My feeling is that the unemployment rate will be the driving factor, in '10. Any improvement will bode well for the Dems, no improvement or a worsening will benefit the Reps. When it comes down to it, people vote based on their personal circumstances.

Dwight said...

Gatordad said...
Off topic, I know,


Why oh why when there is a thread just a post or two down? :P

Gatordad said...

and good morning to you Dwight. Umm, because nobody was on that thread. I wasn't trying to hijack this one, just thought people might want to know. Continue your previous discussion. I got football to watch anyway. The only thing I have to say on Palin, it would have been odd having a Veep that I would actually want to see naked. Pretty sure nobody wants to see Gore or Cheney or Biden in Playgirl.

Dwight said...

Umm, because nobody was on that thread.

You could have broken the news! :) Of course if you'll look there now.....

Dwight said...

Nevermind, Nate's got a thread for it. :)

Gatordad said...

Alas, for a moment my dream come true, town crier for 538. But now, a return to my mundane world. Dwight you tease. LMAO!

Todd Dugdale said...

Gatordad wrote:
"When asked to self identify as cons, mod, or liberal, those numbers haven't changed."

Yes, but those categories are not very meaningful. These words mean different things to different people. Some Democrats that I know to be socially liberal describe themselves as conservatives. For example, they don't spend money that they don't have, they don't engage in risky behaviour, they don't embrace fads/trends/gossip, they have clear religious beliefs, etc.

One key difference is that they don't believe in forcing those values on others, of course. And they believe that government is not some kind of plague that we must rid ourselves of, but a means of attaining an equitable society.

Now, wingnuts would have us believe that anyone who self-identifies as "conservative" is a 'tenther' screaming about socialism, as well as a 'birther' and a fundamentalist Christian. Nothing shows that the wingnut definition of "conservative" is the commonly accepted one.

The "conservatism" being pitched by the Right is really just neo-Hooverism. Politically, a President cannot ask the unemployed millions to "stick it out" for 6 or 8 years until the Invisible Hand works its magic in order to avoid the nebulous terror of socialism. Likewise, no figure on the Right is willing to state exactly what they will cut from the budget in order to save us from the horror of debt. Vague terms such as "pork" and "earmarks" only sound good until one gets to specifics.

"Red" districts and states getting more conservative is just a lateral move in the big picture. It hardly heralds a "wave". Indeed, it is more a defensive move to hold on to the ground the Right already has than it is an aggressive push to win back the ground already lost.

As far as Palin: she is just going to get older. The "cute factor" has a short shelf life, and that is most of what she has going for her. You can't wink and pout legislation through, after all.

Virtually all of her "accomplishments" as Governor would have come to pass even if she were in a coma for her term; she merely allowed other people to do things.

Playing the 'victim card' also has a short shelf life; at some point, you begin to look like a whiner rather than a leader. Rather than "fighting back", she seems more willing to pout and look to her adoring fans to defend her.

The most telling aspect of her popularity is that men, not women, are her main source of support. This kind of undermines the "feminist icon" narrative, and does not bode well for her political future when she must begin to put the makeup on with a trowel and wear more concealing clothes.

Dwight said...

Gatordad said...
Alas, for a moment my dream come true, town crier for 538. But now, a return to my mundane world. Dwight you tease. LMAO!


I'm picturing you clanging a handbell while wearing a bright orange tricone hat with a little Gator logo on the front. :)

Todd Dugdale said...

BDP wrote:
"Being called "stupid" by lefties is essentially a credential that you are now a contender."

Well, now I'm confused.

Under Wingnut Law, scoffing at something is clear and undeniable proof that one fears whatever is being scoffed at.

By scoffing at "lefties", does not BDP prove that he lives in mortal terror of "lefties"? Does he not reveal that he knows his dreams of a 'conservative rebellion' are ill-founded?

We seem to have arrived at some kind of logical singularity where wingnuts cannot be taken seriously because they do not take non-wingnuts seriously. Thus, Wingnut Law creates a black hole of un-reason and un-thought, similar to John Cole's "wingularity".

Or is there some clause in Wingnut Law that exempts the Law from being invoked on wingnuts? That seems more believable. They seem to have different standards for "their own" on virtually everything.

larryfeltonj said...

someone wrote:

Being called "stupid" by lefties is essentially a credential that you are now a contender.

On the other hand it could be a credential that the person in question is indeed stupid. This is tantamount to the crackpot pseudo-scientist ranting "They laughed at Copernicus, they laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Darwin ... and now they're laughing at me!!!!" Sometimes the object of ridicule is ridiculous.

Peter K said...

Being called "stupid" by lefties is essentially a credential that you are now a contender.

Or maybe Bart has simply let the cat out of the bag that part of a candidate's appeal to Republicans is a forthright, almost mendacious stupidity. It explains a lot...

Mike in Maryland said...

Bart, who is dumber than a Palmetto, said...
Being called "stupid" by lefties is essentially a credential that you are now a contender.

And thus another attempt by a Conservatard to hijack a thread and force it off-topic.

Did the poster who is dumber than a Palmetto ever think that sometimes being described as 'stupid' is an accurate descriptive? Would the poster who is dumber than a Palmetto consider Hitler was smart or stupid for allowing Great Britain to remain unconquered while planning the invasion of the Soviet Union in WW II? Instead of a one-front war, Hitler allowed a two-front war to be the fact, AND allowed the US to have a base of operations (Great Britain) when they entered the war. Also remember, Hitler had a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union - the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that Stalin thought was still in effect until days after the June 22, 1941 invasion.

Was Hitler (and Mussolini) smart or stupid for declaring war on the US on December 11, 1941? Remember, the US declaration of war on December 8, 1941 was against Japan only.

If the poster who is dumber than a Palmetto thinks being called stupid is a mark of high something, the poster who is dumber than a Palmetto must have high regard for Hitler's tactics.

As to Sarah Barracuda, she IS stupid. As Forrest Gump said in the movie, "Stupid is as stupid does."

If she were not stupid, she would have, as soon as she knew of it, come out with a very clear statement that she was NOT going to accept any money to speak in Iowa, or if any money was given to her, the money would go to a charity she was in no way connected with. Since the news was out there for several days before even the first comment from Palin, and no comment from the Palin camp, either:

- Palin doesn't read the news; or
- Palin's staff doesn't pay any attention to the news; or
- Palin couldn't decide if she would or would not accept the money.

All three of the above can be easily described as not stupid, but STUPID.

Mike in Maryland

DCM in FL said...

MinM

just curious but...

are you comparing Bart to the palmetto palm or the palmetto cockroach ???

both analogies work imho...

Tony C. said...

@MiM:

Agreed, Sarah Palin is stupid; and stupid is as stupid does. Look at her disaster of an interview with Katie Couric as proof.

I am not saying that Palin should have been able to answer every oddball question Couric threw up, but SMART people train and drill on how to evade unanswerable questions.

I have been involved in mock interviews and debates and pitches for corporate officers, and the point isn't to memorize facts and figures. That is great if you can do it, and on some central issues you better know the facts and numbers. But the real point is to learn an attitude and mindset, which is how to improvise in a way that doesn't create a new commitment and cannot be pinned on you as a blatant lie.

Sarah Palin walked in front of the bus on that interview; she proved she was simply not ready for prime time. And the same could be said for many of her other interviews, she insists upon winging it, and that makes her either stupid and unable to learn, or lazy and not wanting to learn and therefore stupid because it is giving up millions because she is too lazy to do some homework.

Smart people learn to obfuscate, misdirect, and postpone into irrelevancy. Palin IS stupid.

Peter K said...

Tony C:
I am not saying that Palin should have been able to answer every oddball question Couric threw up, but SMART people train and drill on how to evade unanswerable questions.

Man do you have low standards!

I really think that to be qualified as the VP of the USA, she SHOULD have been able to answer every question Couric asked, without even pausing to assemble an answer. Can you find an example of a question Couric asked which could be called unanswerable?

PeteKent said...

Quibble all you like, but Palin wins the mega media battles. Witness David Letterman and her Facebook sneak attack on Obama care that pretty much ignited the Tea party and Town Hall movement at the crucial time.

Supporters of unversal coverage/Euro Socialist healhcare reform have never recovered.

Now she flits away the flea of an exhibitionist Levi Johnson, branding him as someone so hungry for attention that he would literally expose himself to do so.

Go, Sarah, go!

She need not run in 2012, but the leadership of the GOP will be hers as soon as she seeks to claim it.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Mike in Maryland said...

DCM in FL:

Actually, I didn't know of the palmetto cockroach, so I was comparing it (the poster) to the tree. Technically, the tree would be dumber, as there is no nerve ganglia in the tree (vs the cockroach) that might be considered to be a 'brain' of sorts. But then again, cockroaches ARE quite low on the 'smarts' scale, and quite disgusting (especially in contrast with the tree). So, yes, either analogy would be appropriate.

Also, when you compare the poster who is dumber than a Palmetto to many of the politicians from the 'Palmetto state' (named as such after the tree), it is not hard to see an eerie similarity, at least not for me.

So let's just let the 'dumber than a Palmetto' descriptive be interpreted as the reader wishes. VBG

Mike in Maryland

Dwight said...

Peter K said...

I really think that to be qualified as the VP of the USA, she SHOULD have been able to answer every question Couric asked, without even pausing to assemble an answer. Can you find an example of a question Couric asked which could be called unanswerable?


It wouldn't bother me if they paused to assemble the answer. :) Some people, of significant intellegence and insight, will do that to put together the whole thought before beginning to speak. There are different ways to assemble ideas and then communicate them.

However I'm with you on those questions all being worthy of at least a passable answer. But the non-answer deflection that Tony mentions does require basic understanding of the issue, too. Because ignorance comes through on non-answers, too.

What Palin appears to do is have a very limited number of circular diatribes that progress through a chain of platitudes, "common sense", factiods, and standard BS talking points on different mildly related topics. She then tries to find the best match between one of the links in the chain and the question being asked, and then rattles off the chain starting there until she loops around to that point in the chain again.

I'm wondering if this is how she's trying to learn/remember this stuff? As sort of chain of tangentally associated factoids? *shrug* It sounds just like the stereotypical response you'll hear at a beauty contest, I wonder if that's where she picked up this technique from?

.... and world peace!

Todd Dugdale said...

Dwight wrote:
"What Palin appears to do is have a very limited number of circular diatribes that progress through a chain of platitudes, "common sense", factiods, and standard BS talking points on different mildly related topics."

I agree with your take, but I see this rattling off of circular diatribes as more of an effort to hit as many wingnut talking points as possible in order to identify herself to the "base" as "one of them".

She seems completely unprepared and unwilling to defend her "points", because she is accustomed to people simply nodding along as she hits the right notes.

Not surprisingly, for those that buy into the "base agenda" lock, stock, and barrel, this appears completely rational and unnecessary because 'everyone' already 'knows' this stuff to be true.

To those who do not dwell in the conservative bubble world, however, it comes off as incoherent. Pointing out that her rambling, disjointed, circular diatribes fail to address the question posed is just "mean", biased, and petty to the "base", though.

We are supposed to simultaneously "respect her achievements" and "cut her some slack". We all 'know' what she 'means', so why force her to actually go through the trouble of articulating it? That's exactly what the "liberal media" wants: to make her actually say something so that they can criticise it. Well, Sarah's not playing that game.

Why would a politician ever have to explain their views or deal with someone who disagrees with them, after all? It's just completely unfair, and Sarah is just going to have to pout if you don't stop it right now. Then you'll be in trouble. She won't wink at you anymore, because you're just a big meanie.

Mr. Universe said...

Funny.

SarahPac bought ads on this site up until a few weeks ago

I use a quote from Burke as my tag line on e-mails.

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’
- Edmond Burke

Mr. Universe said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Matoko Kusanagi said...

I have just one question for you guys.
What is the percent WEC (white evangelical christian) in the GOP atm?
In 2000 it was 33%, 2006 it was 47%, in 2008 it was 50% in the CNN exit polling.
WECs make up 20% of the electorate, and they are big palinfans. So if they are much above 50% then her nomination is pretty certain.
It is my hypoth that the decrease in republican party affiliation is caused by non-WECs leaving the party to become independent, resulting in the party becoming increasingly homogenously WEC.
Could percent WEC be as high as 70-75%?
I was going to cowboy up 20 bucks and buy a month of access to Rasmussen crosstabs to find out, but my mac started yelling the Rasmussen site didnt have a valid security certificate.
What kind of interweb site doesnt have a valid cert?

Mr. Universe said...

Being called "stupid" by lefties is essentially a credential that you are now a contender.

Actually, it just means you're stupid, stoopid.

Tony C. said...

@Peter K:

By "unanswerable" I mean a question that cannot be answered truthfully without causing damage. So, for example, when Couric asks what she reads, that cannot be answered: The truth is obviously "None at all," and Palin's answer (All of 'em) is obviously a lie, and damaging.

The proper pol answer, the smart answer, is half truth and half lie: "Recently I haven't had time to read anything, I have been getting briefings and summaries. I used to like the Anchorage dailies, and my staff would bring me articles of interest; and I'm embarrassed to say I don't keep track of where they come from or particular journalists very well."

No damage, to her base she sounds like them, and she doesn't come off as completely uninformed or blatantly lying.

A second approach is answering a general question (What do you read?) with a specific example (I'll tell you what, I read X by Y and I find that alarming, and I think it calls for an investigation...).

A third option is joking, if you can, or flattery if appropriate.I am not saying I LIKE this shit, I am saying smart politicians train themselves to do it instinctively, because inevitably somebody is going to ask you a question you REALLY don't want to answer with either the truth OR a lie.

Dwight said...

Ultimately you never want to answer with a hard, falsifiable lie. Somebody, somewhere will figure it out and you end up looking bad.

Palin had a short, charmed career so she hadn't figured that out (or killed her career failing to learn it) before getting the VP nomination so she kept making that same error over and over. She just didn't seem to know how to keep her mouth shut. I don't know, maybe normally noboby in AL fact checks?

One or two of these ever couple of years are usually survivable. You can argue the meaning of "is", sheepishly beg forgiveness, and let it blow over (if you keep your head down, Sanford). But when you keep telling whoppers that are easily refuted it eventually catches up to you.

Tony C. said...

@Dwight:

Yeah, IMO what lost the race for Hillary: The Duck And Cover From Sniper Fire story refuted by the people on the plane with her (Sinbad, remember that guy?) and then by VIDEO of her being greeted by a little girl with flowers.

Dumb politicians confuse lying about motives (their own and their opponents) with lying about facts. When the facts cannot be told, the last thing you want to do is make things up.

I find that despicable, but it is how the game works: Look at Bush Jr, as far as I know he never lied about his early drug use: He refused to answer the question, or he said "When I was young and irresponsible I did young and irresponsible things," and idiots bought it (After all, he's been "saved" since then). (Personally I don't care about somebody smoking pot or snorting cocaine, but this line from Bush could just as easily excuse murder, rape, and armed robbery, right?)

(Oh wait, it is the same line being used to excuse not prosecuting torture: Let's look forward, not backward. Yet another bipartisan lesson from the Bush years.)

Politics: The art of explaining tomorrow why the promises you made yesterday are being exposed as lies today.

shiloh said...

Tony C. said...

Politics: The art of explaining tomorrow why the promises you made yesterday are being exposed as lies today.
~~~~~~~~~~


So politicians are like used car salesmen! :)

My dad, who was in the auto industry used to say, If you can't sell 'em, confuse 'em er if can't dazzle them w/brilliance, baffle them w/bullshit!

When one is good at sales, the world is your oyster.

and speaking of snake oil salesmen, there's something about Joel Olsteen that is sooo damn annoying lol besides the permanent shit house grin on his face! ;) I digress.

apologies to used car salesmen ...

chgoblue said...

Oh yes, the Shrilla is such a hot commodity, that her book is already marked down from $29 to $9 on Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Sarah+Palin&x=10&y=19

Carey said...

What I find most remarkable about the Palin phenomenon is rarely remarked on - that the foundation of that enormous early popularity as Governor was a stiff tax increase on business (the oil depletion tax) which was then redistributed by mailing a $1200 check to every citizen.

A more purely and genuinely "socialist" policy one cannot imagine.

This validates very neatly the observations that the Republican base has been reduced to WEC (White Evangelical Christian) identity politics. If you are "one of us" anything is forgiven so automatically that the defect does not even register in the eye of the beholder. IOKIYAR: It's OK If You Are Republican.