10.09.2009

Reforming the Democratic Presidential Nomination

I attended a panel today at Brookings featuring Elaine Kamarck and her new book, Primary Politics. Kamarck is both expert on, and key figure in, the transformation of the Democratic presidential nomination process during the past few decades. The panel was chaired by Brookings' incomparable Bill Galston, and featured WaPost national political reporter Dan Balz and PoliticsDaily's Walter Shapiro. I also met briefly with Jeff Berman, the Obama campaign's "delegate guru," who has agreed to do an interview with 538.com after the upcoming, October 22 meeting of the commission appointed to review and recommend changes to the Democratic Party's nomination process, of which he is a member.
Let me recapitulate several points made either by Kamarck or one of the panelists, and then offer a few observations:

1. Before turning to the discussion of the 2008 nomination battle between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, and the possible reforms in the nominating rules to come from the commission, Kamarck noted that for the first time the Republicans, who historically have only permitted rule changes to be considered at their quadrennial national conventions, are now also looking at their own presidential nomination process during the interim between 2008 and 2012. She noted, for instance, that Mike Huckabee was severely hampered by the Republicans' use in many states of winner-take-all allocation of delegates.

2. In the interest of fairness, notably the proportionality rules that guarantee delegates to Democratic candidates who reach a certain (presently 15 percent) threshold, Kamarck says the "Democratic Party has twisted itself into knots over the past 40 years--they have tried so hard to be fair that they have created a system that rewards losers." By which, I gather, she means not necessarily candidates who will lose the general election (though that has certainly happened), but candidates who underperform in the primaries and caucuses yet continue to remain viable because of proportionality.

3. "If there was a hero" of the 2008 Democratic nomination, at least from a rules and process standpoint, she said, it was Berman, the Obama delegate strategist. Kamarck also mentioned the irony that members of the DNC rules committee, including key Clinton supporters, were among those who sanctioned Florida and Michigan, noting that Obama campaign manager David Plouffe recently admitted that if Florida had been a legitimate and sanctioned primary Clinton might have had both the delegates and momentum to hold off Obama.

4. Balz focused on the significance of the caucus v. primary allocation of delegates, and specifically how Berman and the Obama team were able to maximize the delegates won, particularly in caucus states. He pointed out that (a) Clinton's net margin in the New Jersey primary of 11 delegates was more than cancelled out by Obama's net margin of 12 delegates in the Idaho caucus; and (b) that if delegates were apportioned winner-take-all, like they are in the Electoral College, Clinton would have won by about 300 delegates. (That is, presuming superdelegates voted the same way they eventually did, which they probably would not have.) The table above, though created by a Clinton-supporters site, depicts rather clearly the disparities that favored Obama's caucus-driven strategy.

5. Shapiro spoke to the timing and length of the primary calendar, arguing that the warrant for an earlier and more condensed calendar--which may have made sense in 2000 or previously--is obviated by the campaign finance laws and the end of soft money windfall nominees once stood to reap, and the realization from 2008 that a prolonged primary season is not necessarily a hindrance to the eventual winner and may even be of great benefit.
Some observations:

*There is a certain irony to Kamarck's "rewarding losers" comment, given that Bill Clinton, for whom she later worked, would have likely been thinned from the herd in 1992 had it not been for proportionality provisions. Kamarck says she supports a mixed system in which early primaries and caucus are proportional, which will weed out the really weak, non-starter candidates, but which at some point turns to winner-take-all contests. Depending on when that change would occur in the cycle, I suppose a candidate like Clinton in 1992 could still have won.

*There was a general consensus among the panelists that superdelegates were philosophically inimical to the Democratic Party's small-d democratic objectives and traditions. The reform commission, incidentally, is tasked with figuring out ways to reduce the number of superdelegates, which sounds like a reasonable change--although, in order to eliminate the possibility of potential horse-trading the pledged delegates won in primaries and caucuses ought not to be carried in the vessel of human delegates but replaced by an inanimate score or total. (This would deprive thousands of candidate supporters of the honorific of attending the convention, of course, but I suspect it would not be a problem to fill the convention arenas.)

*I did not have a chance to ask Kamarck and the panel the question I wanted to, which is how a reduction and/or elimination of superdelegates might have handled a "John Edwards scenario," in which a candidate wins the nomination under the existing rules turns out to be unelectable for some later-learned reason--a scenario for which superdelegates would be an ideal solution. Fortunately, Kamarck raised this very issue, saying that regular, pledged delegates would be able to handle it. (Kamarck was herself a superdelegate in 2000 and 2004.)

*If superdelegates are to be reduced in number/share of total Democratic delegates, what classes of people will lose their voting rights--party officials of the DNC and state parties, elected officials like members of Congress and governors? If the point, as Galston argued, is to reduce the input of elites, surely it would have to be the electeds who lose their superdelegate votes before party officials do.

162 comments

Davy said...

Interesting perspective, Tom

shma said...

Some answers to you questions:

"John Edwards scenario"- As long as there is no absolute legal obligation for candidates to vote for who they pledged, then I see nothing wrong with delegates voting against a candidate who has no chance of winning because of some post-primary scandal. I doubt his former supporters would mind either if it was universally recognized he had no chance of winning the general election because of the scandal.

"If the point, as Galston argued, is to reduce the input of elites, surely it would have to be the electeds who lose their superdelegate votes before party officials do."

Just the opposite. Party officials are not elected and not accountable to the people. They are more 'elite' (in the negative sense you mean) than the superdelegates who have been elected.

Comments:

Please tell me that they are going to do away with caucuses. Not only do they drive the voter turn out down by an order of magnitude (as the table shows), but they give individual state voters from caucus states much more power than they do voters from primary states. It's incredibly undemocratic to see a vote in the Alaska caucus have thirty times the weight of a vote in the Texas Primary.

Burt said...

Democratic primary reform should be at the top of the progressive agenda. We need a strong primary challenger for Obama in 2012, and the superdelegate system guarantees that it'll be over before it even starts.

If we want any hope of getting an actual Democrat in the White House, we need primary reform.

DerekSTheRed said...

@shma

You forget that Texas has both a primary and a caucus (I voted in both). Texas really needs to pick one or the other, preferably a primary only.

shma said...

Derek: Yes, Texas was a particularly terrible and confusing case. The primary voters had less weight than people in their OWN state who only voted caucus.

Anyways, with the possible exception of TX vs TX, you could replace Alaska and Texas in my example with any state which had a caucus and any state which had a primary and my claims would still be valid.

LFC said...

When viewing past primary outcomes, I'd just like to repeat one very good point I have read in the past. You can't make any meaningful statement on how things would have turned out because in a different primary system, the candidates would supposedly run different campaign strategies.

Obama ran the race he ran by necessity. Hillary started 100 super-delegates and a lot of cash ahead. He needed to close the gap, and so he worked at picking up small states, even if he knew they'd never break for him in the general election.

Hillary expected to crush Obama with a few big states (California being critical, if I remember correctly ... if not, please correct me). She would never have run that campaign if primary delegates were awarded proportionally.

And the Republican primary would probably have been a fascinating horse race if all delegates were awarded proportionally. Heck, Guiliani might have even lasted through most of it.

Evan said...

Texas definitely needs to fix their system.

I don't think it is a priori bad that Alaska caucus voters have 30 times the power as California primary voters. Voters in low turnout states also have more power, though to a much smaller extent. As long as the result is representative of the alaska democrats, that is fine by me. In 2008, Obama overperformed his actual support in many caucus states. To some extent it is politically favorable to the democratic party to support candidates with more motivated supporters, but it does go against some interpretations of democratic selection.

I don't care much either way about the elected super-delegates. Their main affect is from the endorsement standpoint, I find it unlikely they would ever reverse the pledged delegates except possible in a "John Edwards" situation, and in that case the pledged delegates would probably break ranks, too. The advantage of the elected superdelegates is that they must have stood in a general election, so they presumably reflect the nation as a whole somewhat more than the democratic primary electorate. For everybodys peace of mind, it is probably better to eliminated them, and the party insider votes should definitely be eliminated.

Tony C. said...

Look, if you want small "d" democratic, eliminate super-delegates altogether. Why should a governor or party official get any more votes than anybody else?

Why should ANY person be considered wiser or better than any other voter? We don't run ACTUAL elections that way; even Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, Governors, police and military and election officials all only get one vote per person. Anything else is a way of putting a thumb on the scales and bypassing the actual will of Democrats.

So is this idiotic idea of winner take all. Delegates are not necessary at all in this technological age; just hold an election for the primary and let the registered Democrats pick the candidate we want. I don't care if it is scheduled or drawn out a bit; voting later doesn't invalidate my vote, and may allow me to gather more information to adjust my vote (and there are always plenty of people willing to vote earlier).

I hate the current system; I don't want even one person to get an automatic vote. It is elitism, pure and simple, and should be abolished.

shma said...

"When viewing past primary outcomes, I'd just like to repeat one very good point I have read in the past. You can't make any meaningful statement on how things would have turned out because in a different primary system, the candidates would supposedly run different campaign strategies. "

No, the best you can do is compare the number of votes for Clinton and Obama in all states and the number of elected delegates they got. I believe Obama won by a small margin (0.4%) in votes, but by a much larger pledged delegate count (3.6% margin). Under this system the proportion of delegates a candidate received was clearly not close to their proportion of the national vote.

Also what can't be argued is that caucuses are less democratic than primaries. Their length encourages voter apathy and strongly reduces turnout, and the fact that the vote counts sometimes take place in public is undesirable.

shiloh said...

FDR was picked in a smoke filled room.

just sayin'

America was born under a lucky star, eh.

LFC said...

Shma, I'm in PA (a non-caucus) state so maybe you can answer a question for me. Is it true that in a caucus the people on each side lobby actively for votes from the uncommitted (or semi-committed)?

shma said...

Evan: "Voters in low turnout states also have more power, though to a much smaller extent."

That is also a big problem. The largest discrepancy is between Wyoming and Texas. Every Wyoming resident has 7 times the voting power of a Texan in the Presidential election. (California and Florida are next on the most screwed list, and Texas will certainly move down after they get more electoral votes in 2010). This huge difference is a good reason to abolish the electoral college, or change the formula by which electoral seats are calculated.

"As long as the result is representative of the alaska democrats, that is fine by me"

The problem with this exceedingly low voter turnout is that the result is probably not representative of the population as a whole. The Alaska caucus turnout was 2%! That's insultingly low for an election.

Tony C: Couldn't agree more. The primary winner should be the winner of the national popular vote.

PaulSimmons said...

I think that this ritual reform process begs the real issue: inadequate grassroots infrastructure.

With all due respect to Governor Dean's Fifty State Plan, the Democratic Party has limited personal contact with individual voters (emails and such hit a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly).

Hence, I consider the Galston approach to be structurally flawed. If one gives some credit to political experience, the point is not to replace one elite with another (as has been the actual result since 1972), but to open the process.

With more people engaged in their own neighborhoods, on behalf of the candidates of their choice, local people could:

Gain experience in politics, develop networks, and gain delegate status, based upon their local organizing skills.

Operate as a counterbalance against campaign operatives and Party elites.

Resolve the "small 'd' democrat" versus "elite" sophistry that Democrats indulge to game the system for their preferred interests.

Tony C. said...

LFC:

In my caucus (TX) nothing remotely like that happened. It was all quite civil; we had over one hundred people in the caucus, but the race was down to Hillary and Obama, and the guy for Hillary and the guy for Obama traded some papers for a few minutes, then helped each other set up tables and such, and asked us to split the room; Hillary caucusers on the left with the guy holding up the Hillary campaign yard sign, Obama caucusers on the right with the guy holding up an Obama campaign sign, and sign your vote in. Which we (my wife and I) did. It took almost an hour, but it was like being at the DMV. Zero drama. For anybody planning to start attending, I suggest BYO entertainment.

shma said...

LFC: That is my understanding. It is definitely true in Iowa. It may be slightly different in other caucus states. Although in practice, only the strongest supporters come out to a caucus, so the number of undecideds is minimal.

shma said...

Tony C: But what about undecideds? Did anyone say they didn't know which side to choose?

LFC said...

Thx Tony and Shma. I'd be interested in hearing of anybody else's caucus experiences out there.

Tony C. said...

@LFC:

Oh, plus there was some party things on the caucus ballot. I forgot about that. They had some papers to read about those issues, but I only voted on one of them. There didn't seem to be any debate on these issues. Maybe we are just a boring precinct, but that was my experience.

Josh Putnam said...

Tom,
The next Democratic Change Commission meeting is slated for Saturday, October 24 in Washington.

One of the things the commission discussed at their first meeting in June was the idea of using winner-take-all rules as a means of incentivizing states going later in the process.

Here's a good aggregation of some of the things talked about at that June meeting.

Tony C. said...

@Shma:

There wasn't a single undecided in the entire crowd, as far as I could tell. The guy with the Hillary sign called us to order, told us to split, and in about 60 seconds there was an aisle down the middle of the room (by which people left after recording their vote at the tables, which were at the front). Nobody changed lines. The only talking I heard was pretty much neighbor chat.

Erik Nilsson said...

@ "Anyways, with the possible exception of TX vs TX, you could replace Alaska and Texas in my example with any state"

Washington state also has both a primary and caucus. Republican delegates are partly elected by each, but Democratic delegates are only elected by the caucus. Thus Democratic Washington primary voters have achieved the minimum possible representation for their vote: zero. Their votes are exactly worthless.

Katharriet said...

@LFC, caucus experiences depend on your state.
Minnesota has a binding straw poll at their caucus, which functions as a presidential primary, so our results are different from some caucus states.
Many people (most, by far) came, signed in, voted, and left. There was next to no persuasion.
For all other races, we run a more traditional caucus-primary system, and yes, usually candidate representatives talk at the caucuses. There's a lot more detail I could go in to, but for now I'll just say that because of numbers, usually most of the horse-trading and persuasion goes on at higher-level conventions.

shma said...

Yeah, I didn't bother to mention any primary which had no impact. Although, checking Wikipedia, the primary had 20x the turnout of the caucus.

Katharriet said...

correction to my last post: Minnesota's DFL party has a binding straw poll at their caucus. I don't remember precisely what the GOP rules are, but I think they differed a bit.

Tobe said...

Was there any discussion of the role of Iowa and New Hampshire as the unrepresentative killing fields/launch pads for presidential candidates? Does anything impact the eventual nomination of a candidate as much as these two states?

Anna said...

Elected officials are chosen by ordinary general election voters.

Delegates chosen by primaries are chosen by ordinary voters who are willing to identify themselves as Democrats.

Delegates chosen in caucuses are largely chosen by the small number of voters that the campaign operatives can persuade to turn out.


Which do you think produces the most representative result?

Being known to the party or campaign operatives is probably the single factor most predictive of attending a caucus.

As to opening the procedure up, short of a draft, how are you going to make voters walk through the door?

The least effort demanded of the least motivated voters will most likely lead to the highest turnout. Is this what you want or do you want it to be an inside game of those who participate in politics generally and who are more likely motivated and knowledgeable?

There is a real tradeoff between getting the most informed and knowledgeable voters and getting the most voters.

Juris said...

@Tom: I think it's important to separate the idea of proportional allocation of delegates from the idea of having Congressional district (or other sub-state district) allocation of delegates.

It's just my personal (and professional?) judgment but I think a great strength of Obama in the general election was the fact that he had to set up ground operations in so many specific districts within states.

Merely having PR at the state level is fairer and reduces the ill-effects of "winner-take all" electioins. But allocating many delegates based on the candidate's ability to win sub-state districts is a great way to reward candidates who have an excellent ground organization -- an organization that can give them an advantage in the general election later in the summer and fall.

Dwight said...

More of what lead to Obama legging it out for the win. Less of what would have had it in the bag for establishment Hillary. K thx.

Potentially dodged a bullet with Hillary's people going bonehead in FL and MI, trying to get Hillary delegates locked in before anyone had a chance to gain on her and erode her support.

shma said...

Anna:
"The least effort demanded of the least motivated voters will most likely lead to the highest turnout."

Perhaps the reason some voters are less motivated to come to caucuses is because of their structure? Why exactly should voting require a strong effort on the part of the voter? What about a knowledgeable voter who can't devote 3 hours to the Iowa caucus system because he works nights or has kids to take care of? What exactly makes you think that caucus voters actually know the most about the issues instead of merely being the most zealous supporters of a candidate?

"Is this what you want or do you want it to be an inside game of those who participate in politics generally and who are more likely motivated and knowledgeable?"

A real democratic process is not about giving voters who are politically knowledgeable more power. It is about making the voting process as inclusive and easy as possible for voters.

People who want primary voting rights for only the Democrats who have the most insider knowledge should be demanding the abolishment of pledged delegates. After all, superdelegates are the true party insiders with the most knowledge.

Juris: "But allocating many delegates based on the candidate's ability to win sub-state districts is a great way to reward candidates who have an excellent ground organization -- an organization that can give them an advantage in the general election later in the summer and fall."

Wouldn't candidates of a state primary also need good ground organization to win?

john said...

Let me start by saying that it seems odd to change a system that worked well enough to produce a president such as Obama.

Anyway, I think the main point of primaries is not to elect the strongest candidate, but rather to test the candidates, to prepare them for the battle ahead, and in the process weed out the ones that can't make it.

It seems to me that you prepare best for the battle ahead by playing by the same rules as the final battle, at least in the later stages. However, in the early stages, you want to give candidates a chance to learn and recover from mistakes. I am just not convinced that the early stages should be primaries at all.

I think the best way to do it might be to have a bunch of debates and other events first where the candidates can win endorsements from superdelegates. Superdelegates that want to be part of the process would have to endorse a candidate before the primaries start. This would test the delegates to some extend, but they wouldn't be fatally wounded unless something dramatic happens.

Any candidate with less than 20% or so of the committed superdelegates would not be allowed into the primaries. The primaries would have the same rules as the general election to test the strength of the candidates for the general election. That would mean open primaries everywhere and winner takes all, with the same number of delegates per state as there are electors for each state.

Of course, any delegate (super or not) can always change their mind if something significant happens ("Edwards" event). There could be rules under which circumstances this may happen, but it could also be done without any particular reason if the rules allow.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Personally, I'd get rid of the superdelegates altogether, and offer a number of delegates for each state proportional tot eh number of electors in that state. That way, it would simulate a general election, and 'electability' could be settled not by the opinion of party Brahmins but by the members of the party itself, with every vote being equal, and no doubt as to who it is that the majority of us want to represent us in the general election.

Or even better, why not just take whoever gets the highest total number of votes, period? No delegates, no superdelegates, no party hacks. No party bosses doing backroom deals, no delegates to bribe or influence. Just a simple count of who registered Democrats want.

The idea that we're too stupid to pick our own leaders and need a party boss to come in like some paternal figure to correct our error seems obscene.

Tanystropheus said...

My Iowa caucus experience was pretty darn fun. We filled the multipurpose room at the local old folks' home. There were large groups for Obama and Clinton (I was in the Obama group) and the Richardson group just missed the cutoff for viability. Then there was a period of lobbying for the Richardson supporters, during which Clinton somehow lost two votes to Obama!

I agree that caucuses are a bad way to pick a candidate, but they're also a lot of fun and a good way for fellow Democrats to meet up and organize.

I think there should be a round of caucuses in every state in January and February, producing a tentative ranking of candidates, which would be announced publicly. Then the actual choice would be made in a series of primary elections, one or two a week, from April through September.

Pragmatus said...

I too say get rid of caucuses. Too much like old-school backroom arm-twisting.

Let people vote.

shma said...

Damn, I think I have maybe half the posts in this thread....

John: "Let me start by saying that it seems odd to change a system that worked well enough to produce a president such as Obama."

a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter: Don't assume that every election under this system will turn out this fortuitously.
Look how close the margin of Obama's popular vote victory was. Imagine if a candidate lost in delegates but won in the popular vote. Don't you think that would be bad for the party?

SnW:"That way, it would simulate a general election, and 'electability' could be settled not by the opinion of party Brahmins but by the members of the party itself, with every vote being equal, and no doubt as to who it is that the majority of us want to represent us in the general election."

We mentioned before that the electoral college itself ends up weighting votes in favour of the smaller states (this is because the min. number of EC votes a state can get is three, and for logistical reasons, there is a practical maximum). But from a political perspective, this is a good idea. I would also add a national primary date to make the general election simulation more complete.

MelissaM7630 said...

Like Tobe, I have the same question about whether there's been any talk about the influence of the states that get to go first. No offense to Iowans or New Hampsherites, but they sure can have a lot of influence on who makes the primary cut.

I don't what a better solution would be - maybe there isn't one - but am mostly curious to know if this has come up.

mclever said...

I agree with Tanystropheus on his/her Iowa Caucus experience.

The Caucuses help democrats network and get motivated for the election. They help spur the ground game.

Furthermore, I've lived in several states -- from IL, CA, GA, TX, WA, IA, NJ, etc. and participated in primaries and caucuses in each...

Iowa voters are by far among the most informed and articulate on the issues. They tend to be more rational and less reactive, too. It's actually very impressive. They take their responsibility as "first in the nation" very seriously.

shiloh said...

Again, thank you citizens of Iowa :) for having the good sense to make Barack Obama the winner of your 2008 Dem caucus, thus making it possible for him to be elected president.

For that reason alone, "we" should keep the caucuses. Seriously, someone should really, really want to be president to be elected president and Obama who campaigned everywhere and left no stone unturned certainly meets that standard.

slasher14 said...

The superdelegates might be cut back somewhat but I don't really have much of a problem with having "party elders" get a little bit of an extra voice as long as the criteria are objective, e.g., holding past elected office, as opposed to being appointed by somebody other than voters. The supers showed, this year, that they read the newspapers and know when the time to stay out of smoke-filled rooms has arrived.

The change I would make would be to do away with caucuses, to be replaced by primaries. Obama won because he understood that it was easier to carry caucuses and focused there. Don't get me wrong -- he played by the rules and he won; more power to him. But the rules bent the results to an extent.

shma said...

shiloh: You're making the same mistake as John. See my reply to him.

"thank you citizens of Iowa :) for having the good sense to make Barack Obama the winner of your 2008 Dem caucus, thus making it possible for him to be elected president."

What makes you think the final result would have been any different if Obama had won NH and Clinton had won Iowa? Would you be demanding primaries everywhere if that was the case?

slasher:"I don't really have much of a problem with having "party elders" get a little bit of an extra voice as long as the criteria are objective, e.g., holding past elected office, as opposed to being appointed by somebody other than voters."

Yeah, but how could you enforce this? It's hard to vote against a candidate if they're promising you Secretary of State.

dondiaglo said...

@john: "Any candidate with less than 20% or so of the committed superdelegates would not be allowed into the primaries"

Your suggestion is to give superdelegates even more power than they already have? Having elites acting as gatekeepers is ridiculous.

@ Statler: "Just a simple count of who registered Democrats want."

Of course in many states you're not required to be a registered Democrat to vote in the primary. That said, I too feel that ditching superdelegates and caucuses would be the best decision.

@ Tanystropheus: "I think there should be a round of caucuses in every state in January and February, producing a tentative ranking of candidates, which would be announced publicly. Then the actual choice would be made in a series of primary elections, one or two a week, from April through September."

What exactly would be the point of this, other then to spend state money?

Tanystropheus said...

dondiaglo, my idea is to use the "straw" caucuses primarily to spur local organization and get people enthusiastic to participate in the campaign. The party could pay for it with their own money. There would be some light campaigning beforehand, since the candidates would be competing for the interest of the more motivated party members. But I doubt there would be any negative campaigning, since that tends to be born of the need to win.

(Actually, I don't think states should pay for primaries at all, but that's another issue.)

MsMike said...

I voted in the Texas Democratic primary, and attended my precinct caucus.

There are a few things that we should remember: primaries are not just about voters voting...they are about political parties choosing candidates that best represent their beliefs.

And caucuses are the most direct form of democracy that I have ever participated in...they require the cooperation of people with somewhat different points of view, they are exciting, they are inspirational, they are fun. A caucus is one of the best ways for a young person to become involved in politics, in the best sense.

I may be one of the few people who thinks that there is something to be said for the Texas system.

loner said...

Post-1968, the Democratic Party set up a commission to democratize the process. George McGovern co-chaired the commission.

In 1972, Iowa's Democratic caucus took place pre-New Hampshire and George McGovern (second in Iowa) won the nomination.

In 1976, Iowa's Democratic and Republican caucuses took place pre-New Hampshire and Jimmy Carter (second out of nowhere in Iowa behind Uncommitted) won the Democratic nomination.

In 1980, George Bush was the Iowa Republican caucus winner. Reagan recovered in New Hampshire. Bush ended up on the ticket.

Post-1980, the Democratic Party set up a commission to bring the process more under the control of the party leadership. Enter the superdelegates.

2008 was not 1968 or 1980. On the Democratic side the campaign that understood the rules won the nomination. Senator Clinton paid a lot of money to people who didn't do their jobs.

Also, the nominating process in both major parties is a state process. This is NOT going to change. Citizens not satisfied with the process by which their party allocates delegates are free to lobby/petition their state (party) to change the process. They're also free to move to a state where the process does satisfy them.

Want your vote to count most? Move to Iowa. Want your vote to count second most? Move to New Hampshire.

shma said...

Tanystropheus: I think encouraging informal local party meet-ups using the Obama campaigns voter database might accomplish some of what you want, even if they happen off-cycle.

MsMike: You should read Tony C.'s account of his TX experience.

"primaries are not just about voters voting...they are about political parties choosing candidates that best represent their beliefs"

How can they do that if not by encouraging as many of their members as possible to vote for such a candidate?

loner:"Want your vote to count most? Move to Iowa. Want your vote to count second most? Move to New Hampshire."

Yeah, but where do you move if you want everyone's vote to count equally?

shiloh said...

shma said...

shiloh: You're making the same mistake as John.


My post was more a shout out to Iowa, than an educated opinion on whether the primary/caucus system should be reformed.

If Obama loses Iowa, Hillary would have been the nominee and I preferred Obama.

Just adding all candidates knew the system and had equal opportunity to make their case although most rational pundits stated truthfully Obama had no chance to beat the Clinton machine, sooo one could easily say the Clinton folk took it for granted it would be a coronation, oops! and didn't pay attention to the other caucuses as Super Tuesday would decide everything.

carry on

Steven SF said...

There is no doubt that the Democratic Party's current nomination process violates the basic one person, one vote principle in spirit. It is also clear Obama's campaign used the Democratic nomination rules to maximum benefit.

However, all contests and games have rules -- it is the candidates' duty to seek victory within the confines of the rules. That the rules may seem absurd does not mean they are unfair. They are fair as long as they are made known and applied to all candidates equally.

Furthermore, it is logically to suggest that Obama won "because of" the Democrats' peculiar rules. Obama honed his campaign strategy to maximize his chances under the existing rules. If the rules were different, he most likely would have used a different strategy.

Asserting that Clinton would have won if the rules had been different assumes the candidates will rigidly keep to the same strategy no matter what happens. That is highly doubtful, though for Clinton it might partly explain the "inevitability" strategy she used for the first half of the campaign.

shma said...

shiloh:"If Obama loses Iowa, Hillary would have been the nominee and I preferred Obama."

I don't see why that is an absolute. He could have lost Iowa, won NH and still been in the race. Both Carter and Reagan lost in Iowa.

Steven:

"There is no doubt that the Democratic Party's current nomination process violates the basic one person, one vote principle in spirit...That the rules may seem absurd does not mean they are unfair."

They violate 1P1V in practice as well as spirit, since it gives caucus voters more power than primary voters. The rules are not unfair to the candidates, but they are unfair to voters who are in primary states.

"Asserting that Clinton would have won if the rules had been different assumes the candidates will rigidly keep to the same strategy no matter what happens."

About a half dozen posts here have made the same claim, even though there is absolutely no one here asserting that Clinton would have won under a change in the rules.

This sounds way too much like people itching to start up a Clinton vs Obama fight again. Can we put an end to that, please?

Philip H said...

Has anyone has really shown that Obama would not have won the nomination, had all the state contests been primaries? No question he would have the caucus states less overwhelmingly, but at the same time he would have won more absolute votes - negating the familiar HRC argument.

It seems like Fivethirtyeight would be the optimal place for someone to convert caucuses to primaries using fancy statistics - the Texas results show that the percentages wouldn't have been much different. So Obama wins the Virginia primary by 15-20% instead of 25% etc...

If we are going to change, then why don't we move California back in the calendar to its usual slot. HRC's war chest and the Clinton name (hardly democratic virtues) gave her a head start that Obama had yet to overcome in early February.

shiloh said...

shma said...

I don't see why that is an absolute. He could have lost Iowa, won NH and still been in the race. Both Carter and Reagan lost in Iowa.
~~~~~~~~~~


Obama based his whole campaign on winning Iowa. If Hillary wins Iowa, her fund raising increases and Obama's decreases to zilch.

Obama's win gave him the momentum he needed and both Carter and Reagan were not running against anything close to the Clinton political machine.

Hillary's folk underestimated Obama, big mistake!

... or should I have said misunderestimated ;)

judas_priest said...

I read about all these proposals to do away with or severely curtail super-delegates and restrict the role of party elites in the nomination process with some trepidation.

“Primaries are not just about voters voting, they are about political parties choosing candidates that best represent their beliefs. ” I submit that the primaries are only a part of a complex process, and that process is about choosing a candidate to represent the party in a general election. Nothing more; nothing less. Sure, I want a candidate who stands for the things I want. but I also want a candidate who can win the election. The two (or in some states three) stage process – primary and/or caucus (and possibly and second stage primary, which is done is come states although not for president) and then general.

The central problem with “representation” as the primary focus is not just the “John Edwards” issue; it is that the political facts change between the beginning of the primary/caucus season and the convention. It doesn’t take a “John Edwards situation” to do this. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that so many primaries and caucuses are so early. The nominee, in most case, is effectively chosen more than three months before the convention, and six months before the election.

We barely know who we are voting for as delegates to the national convention. The base for the selection of such candidates are largely within the campaigns of the various candidates do not necessarily have broad support. Yet these are the people who will have to make decisions in the case that things become unglued. I like the idea of having people in the process who have broad political experience. It’s fashionable today to insist upon representation, but I like deliberation. As someone who lived through the Joe McCarthy period, and whose family was significantly damaged by the rampant disregard for civil liberties, I have a somewhat jaundiced view of popular enthusiasm.

The convention has become not a decision making process but an inauguration. But there is an inherent tension between repetitiveness and effective decision making. The most representative government in the world is Israel (leaving aside the issue of the Palestinians who formerly lived there and their descendants). The entire country is one large electoral district with the entire Knesset decided on an almost pure proportional representation system. It is no longer quite as extreme as it once was, in that there is now a threshold level of 2% for a party to obtain representation, compared to the 1% that was true until fairly recently. Still, this leads to the splintering of political factions and enables small parties to extort concessions on matters of their immediate concern from the larger parties n return for their support of a governmental coalition. As a result, it is almost impossible to obtain a consensus for a substantial change in policy.

Obviously it is possible to far way too far to the other side of the representativeness/decision making and the popular support/deliberative caution continua. But I think we need to make sure we don’t try to solve problems caused by an excess of something by going too far in the other direction.

judas_priest said...

I had to cut a lot out of that post due to size limitations. I may add it as another post later.

Gen Sherman said...

Very interesting analysis. I commend all who have contributed in a civil manner.

Myself, I have no opinion either way. The argument could be made that caucuses present a more knowledgeable process, while primaries present the more democratic process. I don't know which will be more beneficial for the overall progressive agenda. It would be hypocritical for me to state either way.

I do tend to believe the super delegate should be eliminated. It smells and shouts elitism.

shma said...

Philip H: "Has anyone has really shown that Obama would not have won the nomination, had all the state contests been primaries?"

No, there is no way of effectively doing so. Caucus voters are not representative of all primary voters so you can't just scale up. And AFAIK state-wide polls were even not taken in every state where a caucus was held. Data is scarce, so there's not enough information available to do that kind of analysis.

"The Texas results show that the percentages wouldn't have been much different."

Considering the TX primary and caucus had different winners, I think it's significant. If TX was caucus only, the delegate split would have been O-109, H-84. If TX was primary only the result would have been O-93 H-100, a net gain of +32 delegates for Clinton, or 25% of the difference between their final pledged delegate counts. Texas is, unfortunately, the only state where we can do this analysis (Washington had a primary, but it was non-binding, so we don't know if people would have voted the same way if it counted).

"If we are going to change, then why don't we move California back in the calendar to its usual slot."

I don't understand what this would accomplish.

shiloh: "Obama based his whole campaign on winning Iowa."

I honestly don't remember anyone saying that at the time.

Judas: "It’s fashionable today to insist upon representation"

Yes, it's been fashionable since the late 18th century, in fact.

"As a result, it is almost impossible to obtain a consensus for a substantial change in policy."

I often see this kind of argument against PR, but never with concrete evidence to back it up. It's always just assumed that these parliaments are completely dysfunctional. If so, it's rather amazing that all these countries are still prosperous, isn't it?

dondiaglo said...

@judas_priest:

It's true that the convention is no longer a decision making process. That is exactly what the party sought to fix by creating the primary system, and you give no good reason as to why this is a bad thing. By leaving so much in the control of people who are completely unaccountable, you would risk just as much (if not more) than by leaving matters up to the delegates selected based on the primaries (or even the nationwide popular vote).

Brian Jenkins said...

This is an interesting theoretical discussion, but it has little practical value, unfortunately.

The Democratic claim to support counting every vote was blown to flinders in 2008, when they nominated a candidate with a minority of votes. And he now controls the process.

He faces a primary in 2012, unless the economy recovers to an unlikely degree.

He's going to want to ensure that the voters are as few and as controlled as possible.

Get ready for the Oslo Primary.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Oh, what a day.

Rush Limbaugh has been named a judge at the 2010 Miss American pageant. Norway voted in favor of our President. And NASA bombed the moon.

Now, what I want to know is, what if the Moon bombs us back?

At a time when our military resources are stretched to the max, we're discharging Arab linguists left and right, because apparently heterosexuals are too dumb to learn Arabic and its only us gay guys that can figure it out, at a time when we haven't got any credit to buy new weapons with, do we need to pick fights with the moon?

How big a chunk of green cheese were NASA trying to knock loose, anyway? And shouldn't their next project not be some expensive manned mission to Mars or Space Shuttling rich tourists around, but instead a giant cheese slicer?

What a day, indeed.

loner said...

shma—

Yeah, but where do you move if you want everyone's vote to count equally?

You say you want a revolution...

shiloh said...

Brian Jenkins said...

This is an interesting theoretical discussion, but it has little practical value, unfortunately.
~~~~~~~~~~


hmm, little practical value, just like your post er all of your posts at 538.

and speaking of an actual minority winner, dubya got 47.9% in 2000, Gore got 48.4. America, what a country!

Your consistent sour grapes and whining is somewhat amusing ...

take care, blessings

jrubinstein said...

The primary season has grown longer by virtue of states competing to be among the first, and New Hampshire insisting on the right to be first. The party, and not the states, should determine how the party selects its candidate. The Democratic party should have regional primaries, with order determined by lottery, in April through June. Even this is too long; April is 7 months before November, but Americans are used to a long presidential campaign.

Glenn Doty said...

I personally like the caucusses more than the primaries. The reason being that no-one gives a half a damn which person the rank-and-file party members might vote for during the primary process... Whoever wins will take a super-majority of these voters, just because of the party affiliation.

What matters is the "boots on the ground" support level. I would have held my nose and voted for Hillary, but I would NOT have advocated strongly for her - in the exact same way I did not advocate for Kerry in 2004... Yes, I voted... but that's not enough. You need a ground game, and support of a volunteer network FAR more than you need simple money 10 months before the election.

But the primary does give a sense of charisma appeal, message appeal, and general likeability - which are important in their own way.

So why not have both? Each state could have a primary vote, with a caucus held on the same day as the vote. The votes may not be counted until all the caucus debates are finalized... Then apportion 40% of the delegates based on the percentage vote of the top 4 performers in the caucus, and a straight percentage apportionment of 40% of the delegates based on the primary vote, with 10% added to the total of the winner of the popular vote and 10% acting as free-agents.

In the case of a "John Edwards scenario", if 80% or more of the "free agent" delegates vote to over-rule the delegate leader, then all delegates are freed from their vote and allowed to vote as they will during the convention.

To address the problem of certain states - namely Iowa and New Hampshire - having all the power in the process, a series of 15 votes, taking 15 weeks, would be held in 3-4 states/week. The states would be grouped in such a way that each group of states would cover different regions of the country (say a NE state would be grouped with a MW state and a SW state...). The 25 small states: AK, DC, DE, MT, ND, SD, WY, VT, HI, ID, ME, NH, RI, NE, NM, NV, UT, WV, AR, KS, MS, IA, OK, OR, and SC; would be the only possible states drawn for the first 3 weeks of elections, after which point all states would be able to be drawn (the drawing would take place in June the preceding year, at which time the entire election calendar would be determined.)

That more or less solves all the problems, doesn't it? Why is this hard... that took about 5 minutes.
*shrug*

Gen Sherman said...

Mr BJ,

You are just too cute. You say BO will face a primary challenge... HAHAHAHA...

Couldn't help myself. Keep on dreaming of a BJ.

The left knows a good thing when we have it. Unlike the right, it pretends it has a good thing when it really doesn't. No significant primary challenge to write home to mama against Obama in 2012.

Keep on with your sadistic fantasies. They are amusing.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Here's an idea.

Lets ditch the Senate.

They're fucking worthless. For a body that was intended to check hotheads in the House, they didn't stop the neocons in the House between 1998-2006, did they? If those are the brakes, the brakes fell off sometime around the vote to authorize the War in Iraq.

So what are they good for?

Gen Sherman said...

But I digress, back to the topic at hand.

Glenn D., your scenario makes a good starting point, but it has many flaws.

One of which, why single out smaller states and put them in a different category? Political parties have the right to determine in what way their nominees are to be chosen. There is no constitutional protections towards small state rights except in regards to the senate.

Your scenario would still prove to be undemocratic.

Inferno said...

jrubenstein brings up the main problem with the entire "IT IS OUR DEMOCRATIC DUTY TO DO X" appeal w/r/t primaries/caucuses - essentially, the Democratic and Republican parties are private entities. So, really, the party itself should have a say in how it works.

The problem with that is twofold:

1) I think it was noted in the German federal thread that where America differs from most European democracies is that the coalitions are formed pre-election, not post-election. To use the German example, the Democrats are much like the SPD/Greens/Linke together, and the Repubs are much like the CDU/CSU/FDP. (Granted, to be honest - the Democrats are probably more aligned with the Greens/SPD/CDU, and the Republicans are probably to the right of any major German party. But I'm speaking in hypotheticals.)

That said, both parties have wide differences in opinion. Don't laugh. When a party claims around 25-30% of the population as members (as in, on their party lists), there is bound to be some heterogeneity in opinion.

2) At this point, they're pretty much private entities in name only. They're not codified in the Constitution, but the way that our election law is set up (both at the state and federal level), it's rather difficult for any candidate to pick up support if they're outside the system. I mean, hell, look at NJ - Chris Daggett is probably the best candidate in the field by a mile, yet he still barely pulls any significant support.

Yes, I know, Jersey politicians are crooks by default. But it's actually rather indicative of the problems independents face in many regions of the country.

Gen Sherman said...

Inferno said...

Yes, I know, Jersey politicians are crooks by default.


Not to take your statement out of context, but I resent that ; P

There are quite a few Jersey politicians that actually had ethical standards and political morals. You hear of the corrupted few because they are the ones that bring in the readers/viewers.

You must remember, Jersey is the stepchild of NY and PA. They are like the bullies on the block that divert attention to their own misconduct by pointing at the little red hair kid.

Rob Speer said...

Did... did you just use the word "sanctioned" to mean both "penalized" and "approved" in the same sentence? That takes chutzpah.

Alan said...

Shma said: "A real democratic process is not about giving voters who are politically knowledgeable more power. It is about making the voting process as inclusive and easy as possible for voters."

So, democracy means power to the ignorant and uninformed and lazy!

shiloh said...

Alan said...

So, democracy means power to the ignorant and uninformed
~~~~~~~~~~


Hey, they elected Bush in 2004. ;)

just sayin'

Inferno said...

Gen. Sherman: To quote The Joker, "Why so serious?"

For the record, I'm also a Jersey boy, born and raised. I can actually joke about the fact that everyone thinks Trenton is the most morally bankrupt state capital in the union, and besides - someone would have brought it up anyway. ;)

The point still stands, though, even if the joke fell flat.

(Also for the record, I'm now wavering between Corzine and Daggett. While I'm probably more ideologically aligned with Corzine, Daggett is probably the most reasonable one out of the field. Corzine's arguments have mainly been, "I haven't done anything wrong (and Chris Christie is fat lulz)," and Christie's arguments have been, "JON CORZINE IS RUINING NEW JERSEY AND HAS NOT DONE A SINGLE THING RIGHT (AND HE'S A NECKBEARD WHO CALLED ME FAT)." Seriously. I picked up a Star-Ledger yesterday morning. They presented the candidates' views on the environment. What I just wrote was probably an accurate summary of their positions.)

Juris said...

@shma With the congressinoal district based allocation of delegates, Obama figured out the value of trying to win all over the place and picked up a lot of delegates in traditionally GOP areas, while Clinton tried to mobilize mainly in traditionally Democratic strongholds. Obama focused more on the delegate count while Clinton focused more on the overall votes. He had better ground organizations in every district than Clinton did.

That made it a lot easier for Obama in June-November. (And McCain had a terrible ground game, as the series of articles by Sean Quinn showed.)

Glenn Doty said...

@ Gen Sherman.

Small states allow for retail politics. We should start by putting names to them: Let's say Texas was the first state out of the gate. Texas has ~20 times the population of New Hampshire. New Hampshire is a small enough state that relatively poor campaigns can make an actual run... because it's likely that every single interested voter had an opportunity to hear Obama and Clinton speak personally... That took nearly a year of constant campaigning, but it was possible. So even though, at the beginning, Clinton's war-chest exceeded Obama's by ~30fold... Obama was still able to place in the polls, which enabled him to get more campaign funds.

If it was Texas, in order to talk in front of all the people, retail style, it would take ~20 years. This means that if one candidate has a sizable war-chest advantage, that candidate will almost certainly win before the other candidates have a chance to get their name out there. The big states are all driven by mass-market approaches (mailers, billboards, commercials, etc...), because there's no way that a candidate can shake 20 million hands in a campaign.

So the smaller states should be among the first, just to allow people who have a million or two to have a chance. If California was the first state, no-one without ~50 million or so could even enter the race.

Tony C. said...

@judas_priest:

The central problem with “representation” [...] is that the political facts change between the beginning of the primary/caucus season and the convention.

Then the answers are simple and preserve representation:

1) Hold all the primary votes as a simple election, with only registered Democrats allowed to vote, as closely together as possible.

2) Hold an instant runoff election; which is probably the simplest system to best reflect actual human psychology in single winner elections. Essentially voters rank the candidates in order of preference; so you can vote for the candidate you want without wasting your vote. Votes are totaled and candidates are ranked; the candidate in last place is eliminated. If your favorite candidate gets eliminated in this way, your vote goes to your next-favorite, the totals are re-done, and repeat this cycle until only one candidate is left. If there is a candidate you hate, you can rank them dead last.

@Alan

So, democracy means power to the ignorant and uninformed and lazy!

Damn straight, skippy, and apparently it is the best form of government yet devised on Earth.

Of course, there is a logical fallacy hidden in your simple declarative.

Consider that the role of government is to serve the people. Now most of those people are lazy, but isn't it pretty much impossible for a person to be ignorant and uninformed about what they themselves want? (I'm talking about people without mental disabilities, here).

They can be wrong-headed, misled, and uninformed, but if it is the job of the government to act on behalf of the people, the most representative government is created when as many people vote as possible. It is what makes it most likely for them to get what they want.

Now to be certain the law would conform much more to what people want if we could vote on individual policies. The current debate over a public option would have been settled long ago. That kind of voting is possible in the modern world, but no post-tech form of government has been formed as of yet.

Until then, American-style democracy is as good as it gets toward meeting the ignorant and uninformed desires of its lazy citizens, and that is a reason for celebration.

shma said...

Glenn Doty:"The reason being that no-one gives a half a damn which person the rank-and-file party members might vote for during the primary process..."

The 'rank-and-file' are the people who we want to vote in the general election and are not necessarily going to turn out for a candidate they don't enthusiastically support. See John McCain and the Christian base of the Republican Party. Base support is one of the keys to winning the Presidency.

"So the smaller states should be among the first, just to allow people who have a million or two to have a chance."

What if all states had primaries at the same time, but the party capped spending to allow for candidates without large war chests to compete (and also to save money for the general election)?

Juris:"Obama focused more on the delegate count while Clinton focused more on the overall votes. He had better ground organizations in every district than Clinton did."

Yes, but why would that not be true in a primary system? Obviously a good ground game is needed for a state-wide vote, otherwise we wouldn't be taking about how important this was for Obama in November. Clinton mostly relied on the existing party apparatus, while Obama built his up. But he would have done the same if there were no caucuses. He certainly had a good ground game in many primary states.

Alan:"So, democracy means power to the ignorant and uninformed and lazy!"

To put it in the same hyperbolic terms you do: Democracy means equal voting power to every member of the party and if you don't like it, move to North Korea, freedom-hater.

wv: bacon...sounds good.

Dwight said...

@Glen Doty

That is a clear advantage of small states trickling in first. Even if most of them eventually flame out, all candidates have a chance to get their ideas out there and given a sounding out.

That is why I think the move in FL to have that primary done first. I it a relatively big money state. I'm trying to remember if Obama was even on the ballot? I'm pretty sure he wasn't in MI. Hillary supporters were trying to cut things short before others had gained the funding to compete.

Juris said...

@shma: You seem to have missed the premise of my point. I favor a primary system (though I didn't say that -- I don't like caucuses), but what I was pointing to in my original post was the awarding of delegates based on wins in each congressional district (CD) and not just based on the state wide total votes.

I think this leads to a campaign that isn't just based on airwars but also more on ground games, and also not mainly on winning massively in the large media markets but also winning in as many of the CD's as possible.

So I favor a PR (proportional representation) basis for allocating delegates based on votes at the state level + a PR basis for allocating some delegates based on votes in the CD's. What the appropriate split should be between statewide and CD's I'm not sure about, but 50-50 is a good starting number.

Tony C. said...

@shma, Dwight, Glen:

I think it can do a lot of good for small states to vote first and relatively independently (a week apart, say).

Statisically, if the states are geographically distributed around the nation, they present enough voters to be representative of the national population. However, exposure is measured in absolute terms, so small states allow small-money candidates to get their message out, and placing well in such primaries levels the playing field for small-money candidates. The national media will focus on them for free publicity, their internet presence allows people sympathetic to their message to read as much as they want about the candidate, and so on.

Small-money candidates cannot compete in the brutal media markets of New York or L.A. In the ideal meritocratic democracy, candidates will have a chance regardless of their funding. Small states certainly don't eliminate fund raising prowess from the equation, but they do present a much less tilted playing field.

I also suggest that leading states do NOT have much power in the decision process. They are just accurate and believable polls of support for candidates, and they are stages upon which candidates are introduced to the national audience. The fact that leading states often vote for the winning candidates is NOT evidence of power by the leading states to influence the final decision; it is evidence that when people (of the same party) in later states evaluate the same evidence presented to the smaller states, they tend to agree on the best candidate for the job!

In other words, any "influence" is not influence at all, it is just proof that statistics work. A poll of Democrats in Iowa or New Hampshire, in the form of an early primary, is a pretty good (but not flawless) predictor of how Democrats throughout the nation are going to feel about the same candidates.

Inferno said...

But there are quite a few problems with the small-state first approach. For example, in Delaware...I believe that lies within both the Philadelphia and Baltimore media markets, right?

New Hampshire, in part, lies in Boston. Ditto for most of Rhode Island. I'm not sure where Connecticut is ranked (I believe it comes in as a "large state"), but that is heavily within the New York market - you don't hear the phrase "tri-state area" in NYC commercials for nothing.

So mass media issues still arise in small states, especially in the Northeast. And - yeah - Hillary Clinton would still have an advantage if she'd have been able to pop onto the TV and say, "Open wide, this time Hillary's coming" during Dancing With The Stars or American Idol or what have you. You guys are right in that it's easier to get a personal bent with it - it's just that it's not quite as simple as "small states = cheaper."

That said, I'm going to repeat my point from above with regards to both parties technically being private entities, and thus having the right to select their candidates however they want. Speaking as someone from a primary state (NJ), I would actually like to be able to try out a caucus system. It'd have to be declared as a state holiday to get optimal participation, and I don't know how well it would work in larger states (such as mine and NY and CA), but I think it'd work better to gain at least some sort of investment in the process, you know?

I've heard good things about Iowa. And while I can see the point of the primary purists, I also don't think that it's simply a case of WE THE PEOPLE being obligated to a formal election when choosing who will represent the party in the actual election, as I'm reading it.

Lidian & Mike said...

@Tony C. Now to be certain the law would conform much more to what people want if we could vote on individual policies. The current debate over a public option would have been settled long ago. That kind of voting is possible in the modern world, but no post-tech form of government has been formed as of yet.

We do this all the time in California and it's been a disaster. Propositions 13 and 8 are prime examples.

Superdestroyer said...

Considering the collapse of the Republican Party, the Democratic primaries will be the real election for president in 2016. If the same person wins the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primaries, the presidential election will effectively be over a full 12 months before the inaugural.

The next election for president will occur between the Iowa caucuses and the Super Tuesday primary in 2016. Maybe the first thing the Democratic party should do is move the dates from January and February to April-May. Also, the Democratic Party should hold the state/local primaries on the same day since they are effectively the real elections.

And last, get rid of the caucuses. Given that the Democratic Primary is the real election, having a presidential election is meeting halls and fire stations is insane.

Tony C. said...

@Inferno:

I can't argue with your media market figures, so yes, it is not as simple as small=cheap; a mistake I was making.

I suppose my inclination is to let the small and cheap markets go first, so the playing field is as level and fair as possible for small-money and big-money candidates.

By caucus or primary, I see little difference. My other point is that the small and cheap markets allow a fair hearing for candidates to present their message to a national audience (because national media is forced to cover the events); but small and cheap influence is non-existent. Even though it may favor rural vs. urban Democrats, if urban Democrats hear the arguments that appeal only to rural Democrats, they will still dismiss them and vote for their urban heroes. There is no "influence," other than allowing all voters to hear all sides.

If you want a radical change, consider letting large states have regional primaries. Let Texas have a South Texas primary, with binding results but on a different date than North Texas or East Texas. Let L.A. have its own primary, to be combined into the California primary once the other regions have cast their votes (by whatever means). Such a scheme would allow small-money candidates to campaign in a large state, or specifically to urban Democrats.

shma said...

Juris: Sorry, I guess I confused you with some other posters. Check out the Mixed Member Proportional system used to allocate seats in a parliament that keeps both districts and PR:
http://tinyurl.com/2jv5le

This seems like the kind of system you want at the state level. The delegate split is not 50-50 but assigned in such a way that the voting totals match PR. The ground game is still very important.

Tony C: "The fact that leading states often vote for the winning candidates is NOT evidence of power by the leading states to influence the final decision"

Not by itself, no.

"It is evidence that when people (of the same party) in later states evaluate the same evidence presented to the smaller states, they tend to agree on the best candidate for the job!"

No, because you can't separate out the influence these results have on later races. You are ignoring the large media coverage of Iowa and NH and the effect that has on the race. Especially the claims they constantly make about how important those two primaries are.
You have to prove your assertion that the primary voters of Iowa and NH are a representative sample of national Democratic primary voters. And it is easy to show this isn't true for every subject. Iowa voters, naturally, care strongly about the issues affecting their own state like ethanol subsidies and other rural issues, which is why all candidates pander on ethanol in Iowa. But do national Democrats really consider that a big issue?

Inferno: Good points about small states with expensive media markets. What about a straight-up cap on primary spending? It saves money for the general election and forces big spender candidates to compete on a level playing field.

"I've heard good things about Iowa."
The turnout for the Iowa Dem primaries was 14 thousand, in a state of population 3 million. In 2008 Democratic party ID was 37%, or over a million people. That's a dangerously low turnout.

One of the US political systems best features is that each party lets its members choose their candidates, rather than party leaders. It lets the party members feel like it's their candidate. That is the investment they have in the process.

shrinkers said...

The biggest problem with the last primary cycle were a) MI and FL who insisted on breaking the agreed-upon rules and then wanted to be counted anyway, and b) states wanting to be at the head of the line (which turned out to be a dumb thing for them to want, because the ones at the end made the final decision anyway).

One solution would be to divide the states into 5 groups, pick 5 days for the primaries to occur, and then randomly rotate the 5 groups around those days each presidential cycle. You could even remove Iowa and NH from those groups to give them a special day just before the first of the 5 dates for historical reasons.

Caucus vs voting - the local parties of each state get to pick how they select delegates. Accept it.

Really though, things worked pretty well last year for the Dems. If I was a Republican, I'd be really worried about how my party selects a candidate. Look who they've come up with the last few times - losers and disasters.

Juris said...

@shma: That's right, something akin to the way MP's are chosen in Germany.

Lord Calvert said...

I do wish people would quit confusing the internal affairs of political parties with actual elections. Political parties can establish whatever rules they wish in order to select their candidates. In actual elections, you cannot.

If you don't like the way certain political parties choose their candidates, then work to ensure members of those parties don't get elected in actual elections. Political parties have gotten into the habit (somewhat justified) that they have genuine political authority. We as a country need to break them of that habit.

Todd Dugdale said...

Damn it, LC! You just covered the point I was going to make, but more concisely.

One has no "right" to vote in a primary or attend a caucus. Votes can be counted or weighted however the Party wishes, or not counted at all. A Party could even, conceivably, demand a large fee to vote, require various oaths (even religious ones), tests, quotas, etc.

As a Minnesotan who has attended caucuses, I agree that it is a poor substitute for a primary and one that does not scale well. Large turnouts for caucuses (such as we saw in 2008) make the process much slower and even more tedious, and encourages blowhards to rant on at length about tangential matters due to the presence of a larger audience.

Equally bad, though, is the open primary. Since the process is an internal Party matter, those outside of the Party should have no voice in deciding the outcome. That is how we get "Operation Chaos"-style disasters. If someone is unwilling to declare a Party affiliation, then they should not be voting in a primary. That is what the general election is for.

Pragmatus said...

shrinkers said…

“If I was a Republican, I'd be really worried about how my party selects a candidate. Look who they've come up with the last few times - losers and disasters.”

I think what really selects the GOP candidates are the nutjob fringe, the same pack of screamers who have done so much to sidetrack the heathcare reform debate this summer. If anybody doesn’t measure up to their foam-at-the-mouth teabagger standards they scream him out of contention.

Look how easy it was for them to gain attention, not to mention swaying the entire MSM into thoughtfully covering their antics, with such fruitcake claims as “death panels” and “government-run healthcare” and the “evisceration of Medicare”.

I foresee that they will be in charge of the GOP for some time to come. As proof I offer today’s news from this clown. He ascended his party’s ranks by being pragmatic and sensible, only to realize that he had to go off the kookwanger deep end if he wanted to keep his high position.

The most useful job performed by the ranters on the right is keeping their party purged of anyone with even a whiff of moderation about him.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I just thought of something. Its quite possibly BS, so help me reason it out.

Okay, the oldest brain structure is the limbic system. Way back in the evolutionary past, when our distant ancestors where still lizard-like fishes, neurons started to come together into structures. The LS controls the part of the mind that governs emotions, fight-or-flight, warmth seeking or avoiding behaviors, hunger, sexual urges, maternal attachment, really primal stuff.

The cerebral cortex controls the conscious mind. That didn't develop until very late in the evolutionary cycle. Its still kinda new and undeveloped in humans.

Because the LS is so much more well-developed than the cerebral cortex, the most entrenched part of the human mind is not consciousness or reasoning, its primal, raw emotion, its survival instincts and sexual urges, the base stuff we all tend to revile because it reminds us that we're all just animals like any other animal, and not these weird abstract demigods that rule over the Earth - abstraction, after all, is only possible in the conscious mind, and consciousness is what we see as the thing that sets us apart.

Now, politically, most of our efforts to pass bills have been directed at the conscious mind. We talk about how illogical it is that Americans don't have health care, about Adverse Selection and other abstract, although true, concepts. The Right has been pushing a more primal line-It's Socialism! Hitler! Stalin! Death Panels! Mandatory abortions! Lots of primal shit, stuff associated with blood, death, brutality-very animal things, raw emotion.

That's why we can't get Healthcare reform off the ground. We're talking to the cerebral cortices of America. While we are all very proud of our capacity to reason abstractly, of our consciousness, and frequently use that as an excuse to do really awful things to animals we would never do to a human being-that part of the mind is only a very small part of the mind. The majority of what rattles around in our brain buckets has nothing to do with reasoning.

What we are missing is emotionality. Bill Clinton's key to success may have been his charisma, Obama's electoral victory was in no small part due to how the campaign marketed one word concepts-hope, change, etc. Basic stuff, emotionally charged shit. McCain-Palin tried that too, but I guess we all got so tired of fear, a little bit of lovey-dovey nurturing stuff won out int he end.

I have an idea. A very instinctual reaction most Americans have is the gut response to what is percieved as fair or unfair. Sure, intellectually you can talk people into pure capitalism is good because it encourages competition which results in better things blah blah blah. But the Invisible Hand requires abstract reasoning. "Its not fair!" is a concept a 4 year old can grasp. Its primal, raw, emotional.

Now, if we were to pitch healthcare as 'why should the fat cats get better healthcare than those salt of the earth, hard working Joes out there, or as 'You should all get the same level of care as CEOs and Presidents". Yeah, of course, the Right will explode with, "OMG! That's Communism! Don't you see that healthcare and life are things you have to earn, they can't just be given away!", but that's abstract.

Lets turn this around back onto the GOP. Lets make conservatives the ones making cerebral pitches to the maybe 20% of the human mind, while we work on the primal mind. Trying to combat "be afraid!" with "Lets talk about this rationally" isn't working. Lets combat "be afraid" with "You're safer if you stick together as a single group" Just make sure to point out that the government is the people, and not some overlord that's just duking it out with another, corporate overlord. Paint the corporate thugs as what they are-swindlers and thieves. We the people vs the Machines.

Hope trumped fear in the last election. The enemy is raising the flag of fear, we need to break out that old Hope flag and run it up the flagpole so the troops will know where to rally

Statler N Waldorf said...

Another problem is our lack of percieved common identity. Unlike many nations which are defined by a common ethnicity, language, religion, etc, we have none of those things and are defined more by geographical fact than we are by anything tangible. The GOP wins people over by playing up 'Us vs Them', thereby giving its members a common identity. The Left in America is more factitious, frequently prone to infighting. While its good that we emphasize individuality, we don,t really talk much about common identity. You've got Labor, GLBTs, Environmentalists, Feminists, and a stack of different racial/ethnic/linguistic/religious identities that are frequently in conflict with one another. Black fundamentalist christians are offended that they have to share oxygen with GLBTs, catholics distrust muslims and labor is a house divided. Prop 8 passed the same day Obama got elected, and now GLBTs look at Black people suspiciously in ways they did not before last November. We've got 60 in the Senate and a supermajority in the House, and can't get anything done.

The GOP rammed through legislation with far less people in the legislature than we have today, because we are so divisive. We see our little demographic slices as mutually exclusive. Instead of insisting on candidates that are both pro-labor and pro GLBT, we get people like Charlie Melançon that appeal to some of us but offend everyone else.

The GOP of course is a multi-faction groups as much as we are. the Eastern Banking Establishment and the fundies haven't got a whole lot in common-but they try their damnedest not to have anything all that in opposition, either. The Chamber of Commerce refuses to take a stance on social-conservative issues-neither supporting nor rejecting them. The social conservations refuse to fuck with fiscal policy, or will support the Chamber's initiatives so long as the Chamber either stays out of the way or support theirs.

We should do the same. We should, to paraphrase Reagan, not speak ill of other Democrats-that is to say, there is nothing mutually exclusive about labor and GLBTs, so why not refuse to endorse or donate or support candidates that don,t support both?

We need a united agenda-one in which all our constituent groups can have their needs met. We need to stop narrowcasting everything. We may have smaller numbers as a result because died-in-the-wool bigots will jump ship, but the GOP made pretty good gains off of fewer people, didn't they?

It should be about efficient use of the people we have, not their quantity.

Eli Blake said...

Maybe the DNC might want to take a page from NASCAR.

In 2003 the whole point system became an issue when Matt Kenseth looked for a long time that he might win the championship without ever winning a race. Since the goal of a race is supposed to be to win a lot of people objected to the idea that a champion could be named who hadn't won any races. He eventually did pull out a first place finish, but they amended the rules for 2004 to award a small additional bonus (which was increased again in 2007) for actually winning a race, so that drivers would put more of a premium on first place finishes. No one has complained about the change and it has made for some more interesting finishes than it used to when the winner and the second place finisher could (depending on other factors) receive the same number of points.

Suppose that you allocated delegates in a primary or caucus so that the winner (by whatever margin) automatically received, say, 1/4 of the delegates reserved specifically for the winner, and then used the proportional rules to distribute the rest (including of course the winner's share to the winner.)

In a hypothetical caucus in which two candidates get more than 15% and with 20 delegates in which the winner receives 3/4 of the vote, under the present system the winner would get 15 and the runner up 5. With 1/4 reserved for the winner and 15 delegated on a 3-1 basis, the winner would get 5 for winning and 11 (rounded) = 16 total vs. 4 for the runner up, a net gain of one delegate for the winner. This adds one more delegate to the winner's total, or two to the margin.

On the other hand, a hypothetical primary with 200 delegates in which the winner wins by a solid 55-45 percent right now, the winner would get 110 delegates and the runner up 90. But if 1/4 (fifty delegates) were reserved for the winner then the winner would get 50 + 82.5 = 132.5 (or 132 if we resolve the tie in favor of the runner up) vs. 68 for the runner up. This gives 22 more delegates to the winner, or if you prefer increases the winner's margin by 44 (vs. a gain of 1 in the above caucus.)

Pragmatus said...

Eli Blake…

Your proposal is both sound and sensible, unfortunately many will oppose it based solely on its complexity.

The average American likes neither change nor arithmetic.

Pragmatus said...

American democracy—providing everyone with something to bitch about since 1776.

shiloh said...

Eli Blake said...

Maybe the DNC might want to take a page from NASCAR.

In 2003 the whole point system became an issue when Matt Kenseth looked for a long time that he might win the championship without ever winning a race. Since the goal of a race is supposed to be to win a lot of people objected to the idea that a champion could be named who hadn't won any races. He eventually did pull out a first place finish, but they amended the rules for 2004 to award a small additional bonus (which was increased again in 2007) for actually winning a race, so that drivers would put more of a premium on first place finishes. No one has complained about the change and it has made for some more interesting finishes than it used to when the winner and the second place finisher could (depending on other factors) receive the same number of points.
~~~~~~~~~~


As a longtime NASCAR fan, the new pts. system sucks! and many have complained, but you won't hear it reported on SPEED channel or other NASCAR broadcasts because they know who butters their bread.

Bottom line, w/the new pt. system you will never have a true champion anymore unless the same driver wins under both the old pt. system and the chase format.

Worst of all, the only driver I despise, Kurt frickin' Bush, was the first winner under the new faux format, I digress.

NASCAR ratings have tanked recently for many reasons ie they can't compete w/college football or pro football, duh and there's talk of having middle of the week races lol.

1996 Jeff Gordon had (10) wins and Terry Labonte had 2, but Labonte won the championship because he was more consistent over the entire season as it should be. Two years ago, statistically, Jeff Gordon had the best season in NASCAR history but finished second to Jimmie Johnson because of the new format, which really, really sucked imo.

The powers that be weren't upset Kenseth hadn't won any races as much as the championship was already decided with 2/3 races left in the season because Matt was over 400 pts. ahead of second place. Hey, that's life.

btw, Gordon has been screwed out of (2) championships because of the new format.

Have been really enjoying NASCAR ratings declining the past (5) years. The only thing the chase has prevented is if someone was way ahead in pts. the last couple races, the ratings for those last few races would not be as good as normal as there would be less interest in watching.

Don't get me going on the chase format and the lucky dog, etc. lol

btw, (2) races which should never be shortened by rain are the Daytona 500 and the Coca Cola 600. This year Kenseth won the Daytona 380 which would be like ending the Super Bowl in the third quarter and Reutimann won the Coca Cola 340.5 because of rain.

And coincidentally the ratings for both races were in the tank. Again, the powers that be started the Daytona 500 at 3pm instead of the normal 1pm because they wanted the race to end under the lights knowing it was going to rain later in the day ie NASCAR is now run by frickin' idiots!

Rant over lol

Yes Virginia it's true, I care more about NASCAR than politics ;)

Hey, got to talk about NASCAR at 538! :)

We now return you to revamping the Dem primary system ...

shrinkers said...

Pragmatus said...

The most useful job performed by the ranters on the right is keeping their party purged of anyone with even a whiff of moderation about him.

Absolutely correct. So, if we offer suggestions that are actually useful and helpful to them, they'll undoubtedly do the opposite, and continue to marginalize themselves.

shma said...

Eli Blake: An interesting proposal, but one that gives a bias towards winners of large states. In practice, this will make winning the California and NY primary by a small margin much more important than getting a rout in a bunch of small states.

And does it really make sense for a candidate who won 39% of the vote to get 54% of the delegates?

A system closer to winner-take-all doesn't make it immune to close or contentious races. Remember, the electoral college is winner-take-all and that didn't prevent a photo finish in 2000.

Adam said...

Shiloh:

I guess you're satisfied with NASCAR going back to 1:00 start times next year, then.

Sgt. Maj. Assmole said...

Hillary will always be my president.

shiloh said...

Adam said...
~~~~~~~~~~


For any other race I don't care, but as Richard Petty says, the Daytona 500 is NASCAR's Super Bowl, only it's the 1st race of the year instead of the last. And as mentioned, should never be shortened by rain even if you have to restart it on Monday.

They started it at 3pm knowing it was going to rain which is what really pissed me off!

And adding a little politics lol, Junior Johnson, one of my all-time favs, was an Obama supporter last year and alas ;) one of his drivers DW, also one of my favs, was/is a staunch Bush41/43 supporter.

You picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel ...

Dwight said...

@Todd Dugdale

It is interesting that in Canada there is no primary system per say. Because of the parlimentary system each party needs the rough equivalent of a Presidential candidate/party leader at all times. At one time it was caucus format selected reps + equivalent to superdelegates going to a convention to sort out who was going to be the leader of the party. Noboby ever showed up with it %100 in the bag. High drama events to say the least.

Recently though tech has allowed the parties to run (with some bumps expected on new tech) more direct elections. Kinda boring really.

At the individual seat level the candidates are usually selected in a caucus format. And yes, everyone pays to vote at the party level (for those direct elections, too) as they require a membership. The typical membership fee used to be $10, not sure where it's at these days.

I believe you can actually be a member of multiple parties, if you lay out the cash.

Of course I think this sense of a "right" to vote in a US party's internal affairs is because the 2 main parties have entreched themselves so deeply into the system, shutting out (if not sabotaging at times) potential 3rd parties. Giving people the sense that they have a right to vote in the party's internal affairs is, IMO, an important concession to keep people from being pissed off enough to go outside the 2 party system.

Mishka said...

Re: Statler N Waldorf:

You bring up many good points that we, as a country, need to discuss, especially regarding the need for a common identity. For you (and for all who do not ignore this post as tl;dr, I strongly suggest researching/reading about the difference between ethnic and civic nationalism.

Your post at 4:15 is more perceptive. What you present is a complete biological explanation of Realism in politics. We do what we do to protect our semen. I am not sure this can be changed any time soon (or at all). As such, we need to take it into consideration when we make our plans and when we create our utopias.

Mishka said...

I am curious:

Are not the party functions an act of a private organization? That is (except for things on the order of 'white primaries'), is not selection of candidates a party function?

In other words, is not the purpose of the 'primary season' to select a candidate who has a greater opportunity of winning the national election?

T. J. Hairball said...

Small note:

The electoral college has a lot of quirks, one of which is that some states are not contested. I suspect the total popular votes nationwide would be a better predictor of performance than a simulated WTA electoral vote for this reason.

Of course, the "real" point of having a primary is so you can mostly get away with using a flawed simple plurality system that breaks down whenever you have three or more viable candidates on the same ballot.

Anyone feel like getting down and dirty with the numbers?

wfleet said...

Caucuses must be abolished. Because they have no Vote-By-mail or Absentee Ballots, women caring for children and older women are disproportionately left out of the process. I made over 3000 phone calls for Hillary starting in the end of December and discovered to my horror that this line was typical in caucus states, "Oh, no, honey, I can't caucus, I'm a cripple." "I can't caucus -- I lose my balance." I asked the first person, Ruth, why she didn't use an Absentee Ballot? "Not in a caucus state. If I can't get there in my body, I don't count." Vera recovering from pneumonia said, "Just because I'm sick doesn't mean I can't think."

There is an epidemic of fear of falling, especially among older women. No 'organization' can help these folk. Only an Absentee Ballot. (They are not going to trust their lives to some nice college kid who might offer a ride. They are *not* going out in the winter.)

These states have Absent Ballots (tho often very hard to get) in the General, but not in the caucus. It's an evil re democracy and ought be eliminated by 2012.

Hillary did not "get back the women's vote in New Hampshire because she teared up in a diner." She won New Hampshire because it was a primary state with Absentee Ballots. This lack of Absentee Ballots in Caucus States is a hidden evil. You think caucuses are cute -- oh off to grandmother's house we go, tra la la. Yeah, well, except that Granny can't get there.

The caucus states didn't go for Mr. Obama because of 'better organization.' His vote was younger and didn't need Absentee Ballots. If you look at the Texas vote which functioned both as a primary, then a caucus, you'll see that Hillary smoked the primary part and not the caucus part. Those Texas percentages reflected my tallies that I kept re all the caucus states. Caucuses are evil. We need to put a stake in the heart of caucuses if we want a democracy.

I fought frantically to get this hideous skewing in caucus states covered by the media, but it was good for Obama and no one would take it up.

(I made thousands of phone calls for Obama later in the General. The reason I'm offended is that people are prevented from voting. What we need is permanent Vote-By-Mail in all states for all elections -- like we have in California. Works great.)

Sadly Iowa makes so much money on being the first state and this ignorant romanticizing of caucuses means that we'd really have to *mean* democracy to change to universal availability of Vote-By-Mail Absentee Ballots. Of course Oregon votes entirely by mail.

If you'd heard Ruth say into your ear and hundreds and hundreds of Ruths say, "If I can't get there in my body, I don't count," it would change tomorrow. It's a shameful system.

Davy said...

@Statler

Statler, my friend, perhaps you should start you own blog. I mean you just shot your load on a post about superdelegates and the electoral college. I only showed up to read it because of my insomnia and a lack of decent weekend programming. Otherwise, you were shouting into the ether.

But hey, you want to go all Darwinian. I can do that. I get into trouble all the time for believing that humans are predisposed towards biological urges as opposed to socialized; although I think there is a little of both at work...aww hell, I need to go to bed. I'll have this conversation with you later.

Hey did you see that Obama intends to repeal DADT during his tenure?

markymark said...

First off, I don't think any counter factual history of the 2008 Democratic Primary is possible. Everything that happened post Iowa was changed by the results in Iowa. An interesting thought would be what would have happened if the finishing order was Edwards, Obama, Clinton. I think that might have been even worse for Clinton. But If Clinton had won in Iowa, she wouldn't necessarily have got the same sympathy vote in New Hampshire etc etc.

I guess the real truth is that Obama played the rules a lot better than Clinton. Whether the rules were right is the issue here. Thats a complicated issue. My view is that a Caucus is every bit as relevant for a deciding on the Presidential nomination as a primary, given that a caucus requires a level of commitment on the part of volunteers and voters, that will more accurately translate into support come November. I am not personally a great fan of Open Primaries or Caucuses. I think that system is to open to dishonesty on the part of non committed voters from the other side. (Can you guarantee a voter will vote for the candidate he would prefer there guy to be up against, rather than a more positive vote?)

Dwight said...

Davy said...

Hey did you see that Obama intends to repeal DADT during his tenure?


WTF, I thought he'd forgotten about GLBT? Completely tossed them aside? Video or it didn't happen!

Oh. ((He didn't just mention DADT.))



Mishka said...

[Statler,] You bring up many good points that we, as a country, need to discuss, especially regarding the need for a common identity.


How about instead a healthly sense of mutual self interest? I for one find that the US has more than enough tendancy towards a common identity rather than towards acceptance of differences.

shma said...

Dwight:WTF, I thought he'd forgotten about GLBT? Completely tossed them aside? Video or it didn't happen!

Not to keep the thread off-topic, but it is a speech. Just like the speeches he gave before the election talking about how gay rights are important to him. I believe the gay community has asked for at least a tiny bit of action to match his rhetoric.

I heartily await your canned response.

Tony C. said...

@Lidian n Mike:

We do this all the time in California and it's been a disaster.

1) A disaster for who? Almost by definition props 13 and 8 please the majority that voted for them. We liberals are obviously in the minority in California.

However, allow me to use your two examples to illustrate two principles of good government we should be required to follow:

2) Prop 8 (Gay Marriage ban): As the founding fathers intimated with the bill of rights and in numerous letters, certain rights issues should never be up to a vote. A central role of good government is protecting minorities from majorities; if human rights can be abrogated by vote then we simply have mob rule.

3) Prop 13 (Property tax limitations): IMO, the primary corrupting influence in our government is discretionary spending, which is tied directly to taxes that go into a general fund for the government (city, county, district, state, or federal) to spend as it sees fit.

This way lies corruption in the decisions about who gets the money, what frivolous purposes the money is spent on, and how much is paid for services or products rendered. In government parlance, this is "fraud, waste adn abuse" of government funds.

The secondary corrupting factor is control of the tax code; this adds bribery and cronyism to the mix, the tertiary corrupting factor is campaign funding which can be famously abused.

Despite the complexity of the solution; good government demands an elimination of the very idea of a general fund. Period.

Collectively, we should vote on the services we want each level of government to provide along with the taxes that will provide them.

For services that should not be voted upon, we should vote upon the specific tax that will pay for them.

If you want public schools you have to fund them, and if you fund them with property taxes, you get what you pay for. You have to pay for the court system, you have to pay for the police system, you have to pay for the roads and public utilities (if you want public roads and utilities). The books of such public entities should be open to the public, posted online or available by mail request (at cost).

Property taxes were funding something in California, and if they were tied directly to the operations they were funding (for expositional simplicity let me assume public schools, like here in Texas), then people would have to vote on both things simultaneously: Reduce public school funding by 60% in order to limit property taxes to formula X.

Unfunded mandates are what lead to disaster; either by demanding the government reduce taxes without specifying what the citizens are going to give up, or demanding the government provide a new service without specifying how it will be paid for; or both simultaneously: Demanding the government increase public education spending while reducing taxes!

In the real world all products and services have a price, and we have no problem dealing with that complexity. Our tax bills should read like an invoice for services rendered; even if withholding or mortgage escrow reserves the estimated amount of taxes.

Taxpayer funded entities should also have separated accounts. If property taxes pay for the public school system; they should be required to operate on a balanced budget without borrowing or deficits (other than long term fixed rate mortgages for buildings and such). If they run a surplus, the state cannot use it for anything else; they must retain the surplus, pay off mortgage debt early, or return it to the taxpayer by reducing the next year's taxes.

Eliminate the general fund and tie all government services to specific taxes and prop 13 would never have happened.

Tony C. said...

@shma:

I would say more accurately it is another lie; as most of his campaign speeches turned out to be. He had me fooled to the tune of several hundred dollars.

Obama can eliminate DADT with a spoken order as Commander in Chief that all violations of DADT shall be referred to him and whether to pursue them shall be decided by him personally, effective immediately. This is neither unconstitutional or breaking the law in any way. At that point he can pocket veto or explicitly reject the DADT violation.

Obama has the right to do this as CIC, just as your local District Attorney has discretion on whether to prosecute criminals or not.

Promising to end DADT at some point in the future, when it could be effectively ended in literally less time than it takes to make that promise, is essentially lying about his commitment to end it. It is just another deception trying to hold on to his gay supporters. I hope they are smart enough to recognize it as such.

Todd Dugdale said...

Dwight wrote:
"Giving people the sense that they have a right to vote in the party's internal affairs is, IMO, an important concession to keep people from being pissed off enough to go outside the 2 party system."

In MN we have a viable third Party (Independence), so there is no need to give the electorate the illusion that a primary is anything other than an internal Party process. The caucuses are, at least in theory, open. However, it's doubtful that many people from another Party would want to submit themselves to the tedium of the caucus process of two Parties (their own and the Party they wish to sabotage). It is possible, though, for a card-carrying Republican to even be elected as a delegate in a Democratic caucus in MN. This wouldn't be the case in a closed primary system.

Rather than pretending that the primaries/caucuses are the "elimination round" of the general election, we should return to the real intent of the process. Doing that could very well encourage third (or even fourth) Parties to form.

Voting in another Party's primary/caucus is legal, but it is also deceitful and fraudulent.

Pragmatus said...

Tony C…

Abraham Lincoln had, from the time he took the oath of office, the power as Commander in Chief to free the slaves. (Remember that the Emancipation Proclamation was a military measure, and freed the slaves only in those states which were in rebellion against the central government. Permanent universal emancipation came later, in a constitutional amendment.)

He did not act until the Civil War had gone on for almost a year and a half.

The reason was not his antipathy to the idea of emancipation, but his realization that his first job was to win the war and thus preserve the Union. He could not do so if any action or policy of his drove the border slave states (Maryland and Kentucky specifically) out of the Union. Lincoln himself said “to lose Kentucky is to lose the whole game”, and if Maryland seceded, how could the national government survive surrounded by Maryland and Virginia, both of whom claimed to belong to an enemy government?

At the moment President Obama is dealing with probably the greatest issue he will face in his first term, which is getting real health care reform legislation passed. The fact that in the midst of this crisis he declines to end DADT by fiat, but rather refers the matter to Congress, means that he wants the action to be undertaken by as broad a coalition of those who represent the American people as possible, and not be merely the act of an individual, which will allow his opposition to seize on yet another issue to scream about.

I believe the president is committed to ending DADT, and that it will come sooner rather than later, and that some people will be upset that it will not be even sooner, which is their privilege. But it will happen, and I doubt there is another politician in this country who would have given the speech Obama gave last night before a Human Rights Campaign dinner in Los Angeles.

T. J. Hairball said...

@ Tony C:

Instant runoffs are really quirky. You really want to use something else if you can. Borda count, approval vote, something monotone and simple to tally.

IMO, the problem is that primaries are too important. I'd rather see a system where party-run operations had nothing to do with getting on the ballot, and we had a viable multicandidate system for the general election.

Davy said...

The fact that in the midst of this crisis he declines to end DADT by fiat

That's the problem. Ending DADT is a legal issue that can't be undone with the wave of a wand. The President has already been accused of biting off more than he can chew so I suspect it has just been a low priority. I think he'll get to it after the ink dries on health care; maybe sooner.

Jamison said...

"We want the superdelegates to be as democratic as possible, so we'll eliminate the elected superdelegates." Nice Orwellian framing there, freedom is slavery, war is peace, etc.

In any case, the GOP reform of their system is a joke. They just want to game the system so that it doesn't produce another liberal ("liberal" being a relative term) candidate like McCain. So: the Ohio Plan puts the big winner-take-all states in the back of the bus, and puts a string of small states after IA/NV/NH/SC. Had this been the system last year, Romney, with his ability to saturate small states like Maine and Wyoming with money, would have won, and this is the result the GOP powers-that-be want in 2012.

matunos said...

For all the high drama of the Democratic nomination process, the eventual nominee won overwhelmingly. It's not clear to me that Clinton's agenda would have been all that different (assuming Clinton would have won, which I think is a fair assumption given the implosion of the McCain campaign), seeing as how both candidates had more or less identical platforms when they were competing for nomination.

We all know the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". The Democrats had a knock-down, drag-out brawl for the nomination, with drama going all the way to the convention. All that time, nobody was talking about the Republicans.

This was not the 1968 convention, where the party was hopelessly divided and their strongest candidate assassinated.

In 1968, Nixon wiped the floor with Humphrey, who had not so much as entered a single primary. The nomination process had put up a weak candidate, just as it would in 1980 (though in that case, the weak candidate was an incumbent). Reform of the nomination process was warranted.

In 2008, the Democratic nominee (as well as the runner-up) engaged in hard-fought battles all throughout the union in a way I've certainly never seen in my lifetime, and I wonder if anybody ever had. He went on to beat the McCain handily.

In my mind, you seek to repeat your successes and reform your failures. So why would the Democrats be so eager to reform their success?

matunos said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Tony C. said...

@Pragmatus:

Do you, for one second, even imagine that ending DADT by CIC order would "lose the whole game?"

Do you imagine for one second that ending DADT would actually impair the effectiveness of our military enlistees or officers?

Do you really think they are that fragile? If you do, you have less faith in our armed forces (in which I served as an enlisted man) than they deserve. Soldiers take orders from the generals and admirals at the top to the one-stripes at the bottom.

Obama is not Lincoln, and Obama is not in Lincoln's realpolitik situation; and effectively ending DADT immediately in a matter of minutes allows him to concentrate on other legislation. Besides, this is the President that promised us he could walk and chew gum and the same time.

Personally I am sick of speeches and promises and I'd like to see something delivered anywhere near as dramatic as what has been repeatedly promised. Obama hasn't walked the talk on restoring the Constitution and habeas corpus, ending renditions, ending the excesses of the financial industry, withdrawing troops in Iraq, creating transparency in government, ending the control of lobbyists, or stopping the losses (including losses of Arabic translators) of DADT, or ending DOMA. In fact in many cases, his administration is defending the Bush stance on these things, and extending them!

Your admiration for thundering empty rhetoric is badly misplaced.

Tony C. said...

@matunos:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Well said. But of course, it will be hard to live up to the drama of nominating either the first credible female candidate for President or first credible black candidate for President, I think that accounted for most of the drama in 2008.

But a good horse race down to the wire does make for excellent TV and endless echo-chamber punditry. I think in large part this very site owes its existence to the death struggle battle of Obama v. Hillary. I mean, If Hillary had regained her footing and knocked Obama out for good a few months after Iowa, I do not imagine Nate would have become such a well-followed celebrity analyst. It took that particular race that everybody cared about for him to have enough opportunities to show off his mad skill.

I imagine the next such race is Hillary running in 2016, but that won't be TWO chances at firsts. Unless the Republican's run an openly gay candidate!

Pragmatus said...

Tony C…

Well, I’ll take that “admiration for empty thundering rhetoric” under advisement.

:o) :o) :o)

My mention of Lincoln was an analogy, none of which are ever perfect. The point was to suggest that the president probably has good political reasons (which I outlined) that don’t readily occur, or don’t seem acceptable, to someone who wants action yesterday.

And of course I don’t think having gays in the military would compromise the effectiveness of any branch, in fact if I were president I would insist that the sign-up sheet contain this question:

“Do you think you are adult enough not to feel threatened by a gay person serving alongside you in whatever capacity you are assigned? If not you are not welcome in the United States military.”

No president is Lincoln, yet all face political realities than neither you nor I can adequately comprehend. Just because I don’t agree with your idea regarding what he should do about DOMA and DADT doesn’t mean I line up with those who are opposed to equal rights for gay people. That would be shooting myself in the foot.

You see, I was enduring punch-outs with anti-gay people long before being gay was even marginally fashionable, when it was generally viewed as a sickness, when even the police looked the other way and laughed at anti-gay violence. So I think I’m entitled to my opinion as much as you are, and I disagree that it is founded in “empty thundering rhetoric”.

Dwight said...

I imagine the next such race is Hillary running in 2016, but that won't be TWO chances at firsts. Unless the Republican's run an openly gay candidate!

Maybe, just maybe a certain FL senator will come out of the closet 2/3rds of the way through his term in 2014 to test whether or not he'd be able to make a series Presidential run without having to worry about being outed forcefully part way through. With DOMA dead and sexual orientation equality as settled law for SCOTUS, the issue will have died down enough that he can squeal out the nomination with the GOP.

Oh sure it's a longshot but not an impossibility.

Dwight said...

P.S. “Empty thundering rhetoric” matters. A lot. Not on the law books but in the minds of people. One without the other doesn't work. One helps bring about the other.

Hayford said...

Matunos:

Nixon did NOT "wipe the floor" with Humphrey in 1968 -- he just *barely* won: it went into the very early hours before it was clear than Nixon was indeed going to win. If LBJ had declared the bombing halt in Vietnam a week earlier, HHH would have squeaked out a victory....

Jacob said...

On the rhetoric about Lincoln, it's important to note that he did NOT have the power to end slavery in the United States--the Emancipation Proclamation had no effect of law, and was valid insofar as the government and the military were willing to enforce it.

Similarly, Obama does not have the power to unilaterally amend the Uniform Code, including DADT, though he can use his authority to intervene in individual cases of military personelle being dismissed. I'm inclined to agree that he hasn't gone far enough--not nearly far enough--to make GLBT rights an issue priority. But his authority to act as CIC on this issue is not as broad as some imply.

shrinkers said...

@Pragmatus
The fact that in the midst of this crisis he declines to end DADT by fiat, but rather refers the matter to Congress, means that he wants the action to be undertaken by as broad a coalition of those who represent the American people as possible,

While I'm sure that is true, it is also true that DADT is the law and cannot be overturned by executive order. Going through Congress is the only way to do it. And if Obama pushed for that now, in the middle of the health care debate, it would furnish an excuse for even more of the absurd and violent rhetoric we've been seeing - besides slowing down the process for both, and probably killing both efforts.

Pragmatus said...

Jacob…

Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation with wording that stated specifically that it was a measure taken under his authority as Commander in Chief, because it only dealt with slaves in states (or parts of states) currently in rebellion. Congress had given him the authority earlier that year to seize rebel property that was or might be used against the Union armies, and since slaves were property Lincoln felt he had grounds on which to act.

In fact, since no one ever challenged the Emancipation Proclamation in court, whether or not it was de jure appropriate is moot, however it was certainly effective de facto, since from that moment the slave system in the South began to fall apart. It had the further effect of shutting off all possibility of foreign recognition of the South, its only hope by the end of 1862, because after January 1 1863 to side with the South in any way meant to support the practice of slavery, which by then had passed out of usefulness in the civilized world. Even Russia, never a model of modernity, by then had emancipated its serfs.

I think the argument that Obama does have the authority to cancel DADT lies in whatever authority Truman used to abolish segregation in the armed forces in 1947, which he did essentially by decree. But shrinkers may be correct in that DADT contains a requirement that it can only be changed by law, i.e. an act of Congress.

shrinkers said...

Pragmatus, Tony, others...

How DADT came about was that Clinton was trying to craft a new policy for gays in the military, Congress preempted him by passing DADT. DADT is, therefore, a federal law. The President cannot, of course, unilaterally repeal a federal law. The only way it can be repealed or altered is by another act of Congress.

Obama could, as Commander in Chief, simply stop enforcing the law. But that would put him in the exact position of G. Bush wand his "signing statements" - i.e., he would himself then be in violation of the law, and, therefore, in theory, subject to federal prosecution.

We've just had eight years of a president who ignored the law. We elected Obama, in part, to put an end to executive lawlessness.

DADT wil be repealed before the end of Obama's first term, I'm sure. And Obama will help shepherd the repeal through Congress. But that is the only possible course by which it can be altered.

Jacob said...

@ Pragmatus

Congress had granted Lincoln the authority to free slaves in the rebel states, which he could implement only insofar as his military could compel rebels to cooperate. The constitutional grounds for freeing slaves were also murky at the time.

Perhaps my statement that the Emancipation Proclamation had no legal authority is an overstatement--it had no legal authority where Lincoln had the power to implement it, and no practical authority where it did apply.

At any rate, you're right that slavery--like homophobic laws now--was on the way out by the time Lincoln acted on it.

Shrinkers is indeed correct that DADT can only be changed by amending the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which must be changed by law, not military command.

Obama could effectively void the provision by reversing each and every case of dismissal under DADT, but for a CIC to micromanage military personelle decisions, even for the noblest of reasons, might undercut the political capital he needs to overturn the law through established means. If he opts to overturn each case individually and is thus unable to change the law, some GLBT personelle could benefit now, but the law could remain when we get a more reactionary President.

Pragmatus said...

Jacob…

Sounds like we are all agreed, in fact the point you raise is exactly the one the firebrand abolitionists raised when the Proclamation was issued—it did nothing for the slaves in the Union (where the law did run) and had no practical effect in the rebellious states (where the law did not run).

Nevertheless it was probably the most powerful tool of the war.

Thanks also to all for the clarification on DADT. I predict it will be dead by 2012, surely not soon enough for some, and too soon for others.

Jacob said...

Pragmatus said...

"Nevertheless it was probably the most powerful tool of the war."

Absolutely in agreement. And it laid the groundwork for relatively seamless implementation of the 13th Amendment after the war was over.

"Thanks also to all for the clarification on DADT. I predict it will be dead by 2012."

From your lips to God's ears.

shma said...

I knew I should have just changed the subject back to primary reform....

shrinkers said...

@shma
I knew I should have just changed the subject back to primary reform....

Go right ahead. I think we have finished exploring this other topic for the time being.

shma said...

But I just can't resist this:

http://gay.americablog.com/2009/10/yes-we-can-too.html

Using Glenn Beck's calculator, I estimate 3 trillion people in those pictures.

shiloh said...

Hayford said...

Matunos:

Nixon did NOT "wipe the floor" with Humphrey in 1968 -- he just *barely* won:
~~~~~~~~~~


What Hayford said, if the race had lasted another week, nixon would have lost. The violent Dem Chicago convention put Humphrey wayyy behind. And one of the dirty little secrets re: 1968 is how many Bobby Kennedy supporters ended up voting for Wallace.

btw, whatever happened to nixon? Oh yea, he resigned in disgrace for violating the the U.S. Constitution every which way but loose. Which appears to be a constant theme for Rep presidents over the past 30/40 years, eh ...

Gen Sherman said...

@Inferno,

My apologies, I did get the joke. I did not make it clear enough I was joking as well. We jersey folks (I'm a long time former South Jersey resident [GO PHILS!], and would like to be again in the future) should know how to joke about Jersey amongst each other.

RE: DADT

I have always believed Obama, if elected, would work to repeal it. I did not ever think he would make it a priority before 2010. You have the economy, health care, two wars, and a shambled American global reputation in front of it that needed immediate attention. As it is, he is being criticized for not doing enough in his first nine months in office. My God, is he supposed to be an immortal or something? The man won a Nobel Peace prize for Christ sake.

To put in perspective, Democrats have been fighting for health reform for over sixty years. Clinton approved "Don't ask Don't tell" (a compromise that did not work out as well as intended) in 1993. Since 2001, we have the "War on Terror" that since then has justifiably been divided into two. An economy that can trace its very apparent short-comings to the Reagen years. So, we somehow expect Obama to fix all of this today? Right now? Get real.

Could he make better arguments to pursued his base he is trying as hard as he can? Yes, he can. Could he take a stronger leadership approach towards Congress concerning legislation to include gay rights, health care, and the two wars? Yes, he can.

To all of those who say they are, "Tired of lip service," and demand action, I say, "Patience, my friend." The civil rights movement did not just come about in the 60's, and equal rights did not just appear with the civil rights act. Suffrage was not granted within a few decades, and neither was abortion rights, voting rights, equal opportunity rights, etc., etc., etc.

Obama is the best opportunity we have for the here and now. Do you want to take your chances with anyone else? I don't think so. Now is the time. Now is the place. Your time is here. The here is with Obama. The time is near. The chance is at hand. Take a deep breath, and relax. You'll need your strength to fight the battle that is to come in 2010.

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Tony C. said...

@Pragmatus:

Back up a square, dude, I would not attack you on your stance on gays; I read your comments and know you are on the correct side of that issue.

If anything, I am trying to shake you awake to the reality of the Grand Canyon of difference between Obama's rhetoric and the Obama administration actions.

Actions should speak louder than words, but far too many of my fellow liberal Democrats are still captivated and hypnotized by Obama's words to the point of inventing excuses for his delays and reversals.

My prescription for you is to read at least one Glenn Greenwald per week. A dose of reality-based journalism will do wonders to correct your vision.

Political power brokering is no reason to fail to do what is right. It is no reason to ruin the lives of gays for another nine months, to continue to allow prosecutions of gays, to continue the implicit validation of the American culture of treating gays as flawed second class citizens with reduced rights.

You know, if Lincoln could have actually effected the end of slavery by edict and delayed doing that, he was wrong. I suspect Lincoln was more focused on really making it happen than in saying something pretty, so instead of giving a speech and making an empty gesture that would ruin his chances of prevailing, he delayed until he knew he could enforce Emancipation.

Back to today: DOMA must be repealed by law or struck down by the Supreme Court. Obama cannot write that out of existence. But DADT can be written out of existence in literally minutes with no ill effect in the military. Every day Obama does not do that is a day he condemns gays in the military to second class status. For what? Some kind of minute political wrangling with hate-filled Republican homophobes. People's lives are at stake (and not just homosexual lives), literally, and Obama is busy trying to make nice with the ugliest sociopaths on the planet. It is disgusting.

Tony C. said...

@Dwight:

Thundering Rhetoric matters; if it is followed by action. By "empty" I mean rhetoric followed by no action. And that is what Obama has given us.

Obama has endorsed and extended the Bush ideas on suspending habeas corpus, holding people he deems dangerous indefinitely without trial or proof or a hearing of any kind (i.e. convicting them and imprisoning them for life without any evidence, any trial or any hearing), and as far as his prohibition on torture, his signing statement reserves the right for the chief executive (HIM) to authorize it when he deems it necessary.

Obama has not given up a single unconstitutional power that Bush/Cheney claimed belonged to the chief executive; not one. His promises of transparency were empty. None of his promises of civil rights have been kept. Even his promise to end Guantanamo is empty, as he expands Bagram and claims exactly the same powers there: Prisoners held there or shipped there have no rights of any kind and we are not bound by the Geneva Conventions in Bagram.

Obama's promise to bring unprecedented transparency to government have been empty as well; he is making secret deals with banks, corporations and the pharamceutical industry. He is opposing at least three FOI act requests for White House emails, WH guest lists (which he explicitly promised during the campaign would be 100% public), and photos of torture. In the last case, he is violating two court orders that the photos must be released.

Obama's thundering rhetoric is empty because you cannot trust him or his administration.

Tony C. said...

@shrinkers, et al:

...he would himself then be in violation of the law, ...

What a crock of bullshit, shrinkers! Are you even reading what you write?

Obama, as CIC, has complete discretion over who is court-martialed and who is not. Obama, as President, has the authority to pardon anybody, military or not, at any time and for any crime, including mass murder.

I am not arguing Obama should sign anything repealing DADT, I am saying he can legally use his authority as CIC and POTUS to completely nullify the effect of the law. Congress can't do a damn thing about it (and wouldn't anyway).

We have thousands of police chiefs and district attorneys in the USA. Police chiefs can unilaterally decide to withdraw resources for investigating cases. District attorneys can unilaterally decide not to prosecute cases.

Obama can legally instruct his military officers and courts to stop spending any resources in trying to bring DADT cases. He can legally instruct his military prosecutors to refer all such cases to the CIC for review. He can legally decide to not prosecute "critical personnel" for "national security reasons" or to actively pardon any gay he wants.

Ron Paul was not kidding when he said the President can issue a blanket pardon to all non-violent drug offenders currently serving time.

Nullifying DADT is entirely within Obama's Constitutionally granted powers. The fact that he doesn't use them, when he is willing to go far beyond those powers in other cases, is deplorable.

Gatordad said...

Tony C watch out. I made some of the same points on another thread the other day and was called a "Republican troll". This despite the fact that I made it immenently clear that I favor neither party and think that neither have served they're respective constituencies. Apparently if you refuse to worship at the Obama altar, but rather choose to examine the realities of the situation, you obviuously must be a wingnut. god forbid facts get in the way of demagoguery.

Jacob said...

@ Tony C

True, Obama does have the authority to effectively nullify DADT during the course of his term without getting it overturned, but doing so would not necessarily help GLBT service personelle in the long run. Personally intervening in hundreds of individual cases would burn some bridges in the military estabishment, which would make it difficult to actually repeal DADT permanently.

There are a lot of blue dogs out there who will vote to repeal (and a few Repubs in the Senate who might not filibuster a repeal) so long as they don't have a reason to oppose it (i.e. as long as there appears to be a broad consensus that repealing DADT is a good idea). Audible discontent from within the military could send them packing.

If Obama can use stop-loss and other executive powers to nullify the dismissal of GLBT personnel without political fallout, then I'm all for it. But I don't think he should risk the chance to repeal DADT once and for all. He needs to speed up the process.

Tony C. said...

@Gatordad, and everyone else:

I am a lifelong liberal Democrat; I voted for Carter and every Dem candidate since then, and I certainly am glad we dodged the bullet of McCain/Palin, that disaster would be even worse than the Obama disaster. I am even glad we dodged the bullets of dopey corrupt Richardson, philandering "family values" Edwards, and "ducking the sniper fire" lie-your-way-to-the-top Hillary.

I donated almost $500 to Obama's campaign, I voted for him. He threw liberals under the bus on the FISA vote he promised to filibuster and then voted to pass, and he has undermined the liberal cause and Constitution at every turn since then. We were bamboozled, to use his word. He played upon our patriotism, our empathy for others, and he conned us out of our money and our votes. He is going to fuck us over in the healthcare legislation as well, count on it. 75% of the country wants a robust public option and he is still backing away from it. Why? Because of money, he fears the insurance companies will back Republicans if he passes any reform that costs them money. So he is going to cost US money instead.

Obama has been a bait and switch from the start; as for DADT, why should we just keep trusting what he says and pledges and promises in the face of all the other broken campaign promises? WHY? Are you guys just too besotted by Obama to see this pattern?

I'll believe DADT is gone when it is gone and not a minute before: Show me the money.

Gatordad said...

@Tony C

I'm not sure why people are surprised at the way things have gone. Politics is no longer about representing/serving your constituency, it's about amassing and preserving power. It's endemic in both parties. We need term limits on every elected office. We need complete campaign finance reform, and should in fact, eliminate all private contributions and use public funding. We need to STOP electing carreer politicians and expecting them to act differently than carreer politicians have always acted. Americans need to take off our partisan blinders and acknowledge none of these guys is doing the job.

shiloh said...

Tony C. said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Obama has to look at the Big Picture and yes, he is a politician, shocking. He apparently fooled you, sorry for that.

And as you say, look at the alternatives. The process can take time. But I am disappointed w/you on FISA, Rendition, Gitmo ... :(

Hey before you abuse, criticize and accuse, walk a mile in my shoes!

Tony C. said...

@Jacob:

As a former military man myself, military personnel:

1) Serve at the pleasure of the President, and
2) Surrender their rights at the door.

Military personnel do not have the rights of free speech or protest that citizens have and they know this. If there is "audible discontent" in the military it will be quashed within minutes. All Obama has to do is tell them that if they publicly question his authority on this matter he will in turn publicly demand immediate resignations. No career officer is going to trash his career for something he sees as inevitable anyway (the repeal of DADT); they would have to be insane (and in that case we don't want them anyway).

Thus, Obama can use his CIC and executive powers to nullify DADT without any political fallout, while the Congress works to repeal it altogether.

As far as "personally intervening in hundreds of individual cases," how is that an issue? Obama himself wouldn't have to spend one second on any of these "hundreds of cases," an assistant four steps removed from Obama will be giving the stock memo on every single case: "Do not proceed."

That is how bureaucracy works; he will assign the task to the Chief of Staff, who will assign it to a deputy, who will assign it to a department head, who will assign it to an intern; and at every step the instructions will become more explicit until the intern has no discretion whatsoever. Unusual cases might filter back up this chain, but only about one in one thousand would actually come to Obama's attention, and that is essentially none at all.

The amount of effort involved by Obama in nullifying DADT is miniscule, the amount of political fallout would likewise be miniscule, and the fact that he hasn't already done it is a significant clue that he doesn't give a shit about the people whose lives are being ruined or lost because of DADT losses.

shiloh said...

Gatordad said...

We need yada, yada, yada.
~~~~~~~~~~


Unfortunately none of that is gonna happen as the system creates career politicians and as long as there's Reps and a conservative SC, there will be no campaign finance reform, etc.

So one just has to deal w/the system as it exists.

PACS, lobbyists, special interests aren't going away ie reality!

Much has changed between Truman and Obama and reversing the process ie bureaucracy is impossible imo.

Again, "we" get what we deserve as the citizenry has never been and never will be informed. As Bill Maher said, Americans are stupid!

But hey, on a lighter note, the sun may shine today ...

Gatordad said...

C'mon Tony C just drink the coolaid. Join the "my side is right and my guy is perfect/ your side is wrong your guy sucks" crowd. They're taking over both parties. You'll like it. You won't have to think, just have to drink...the koolaid. LMAO

Jacob said...

@Tony C

I hope you're right, and I'm sure you know more about military procedurer than I do.

I guess that my main concern is that Bill Clinton faced audible discontent from the military establishment when he tried to change the policy before DADT, and it severely undermined his ability to act (as did his constant wavering and inability to commit to principle). How would Obama overcome this problem if he were to attempt to solve this issue himself?

Gatordad said...

@shiloh

Ok so you're saying just accept that the system is gamed and deal with it. F*&# that. It can be fixed, but we have to demand it. It won't be easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is. I refuse to accept that the "pols" will never do it. We ARE the politicians. They are us by proxy. If we wanted it enough we could get it done. Or we can drink the partisan koolaid, allow this petty tyranny to continue, and spend our time bitchin' about it. Just sayin'.

shiloh said...

And re: the military now is an excellent time to change any policy as it will have no effect on recruiting.

cheney/bush having destroyed the economy, the U.S. military is one of the few opportunities for job training and employment.

carry on

shiloh said...

Gatordad said.
~~~~~~~~~~


Did I mention I'm a cynic and a skeptic. Plus I'm older. If Obama can't make the change it can't be done imo. So I hope he's a slowww starter and fast finisher.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem

The rub being Americans are sooo frickin' stupid, most of the time they can't figure out what the problem is, let alone the solution.

Tony C. said...

@jacob:

Truman fired MacArthur and survived the political fallout. In the modern world, the only "audible discontent" would be coming from generals/admirals; any complaints by anybody of lesser rank will be ignored by the press and dealt with by those of higher rank.

Obama may have to fire a general, but probably not. The threat would be enough: He can give them direct orders, entirely in private, to refrain from any public comment of any strip on DADT or his new policy. This can be done on the grounds that DADT is a political issue and military command can be specifically prohibited from taking sides on political issues. Then, if they make comments, Obama can then fire them from their commands and demand their resignations/retirement, for disobeying a direct order from the Commander in Chief. He would be entirely within his rights to do so, as was Truman in firing General MacArthur.

Gatordad said...

@ shiloh

Right with ya' on the cynic/skeptic thing. Big surprise, huh. Cynicism = grasp of reality. And yeah, the average person has a 30 second attention span and a myopic view of the world. Nevertheless, it is doable. People move when they're pissed. If enough people get pissed,we could fix it. Just gotta find the right trigger and get the zombies moving.

Jacob said...

@ Tony C

Obama would be perfectly within his rights to abandon DADT and to fire generals who disobey orders (just as he could now (and maybe should) fire McChrystal for publicly revealing his attitudes about escalation in Afghanistan, but I still worry that it could push away blue dogs and Repubs wavering on opposition to DADT (and DOMA after that). Hopefully not, but it's worth considering possible fallout as it may affect actual legislation.

I will say again though, I hope that you are right and that Obama will finally take some initiative on this issue.

Gatordad said...

@Jacob

Hey Jacob. What about not worrying about political fallout, and just doing the right thing. I know it's a novel approach, but if somebody, anybody would try it, maybe it would catch on.

shiloh said...

OK, here's some good news! ;)

If America had elected McCain/palin, "we" would have been totally FUBAR'd!

Yes Virginia, w/palin as v-p, a relocation to Sweden would be a consideration ...

Jacob said...

Gatordad,

I agree completely in principle. My concern is that the political fallout could make it impossible to make permanent, substantive changes that require congressional support.

I want Obama to do the right and pragmatic thing by staking some political capital on getting rid of DADT and DOMA legislatively so that the next reactionary President can't just undo his actions as CiC.

Gatordad said...

@ Jacob

Jacob, you say that you agree with me in principle but the President has to be pragmatic. That is exactly the problem- sacrificing principle for pragmatism. Principled is what we need - pragmatic (politically expedient) is what we get. It is the nature of the beast. First CYA then proceed.

Jacob said...

Pragmatic doesn't mean what is politically expedient necessarily. Pragmatism is also about knowing what is possible, how to gain and use political capital most effectively to actually achieve your most important goals, and taking on issues in ways that will increase support for other issues on your agenda. In this sense, the President does need to be more pragmatic--he's losing capital for no gain and cutting off pieces of his agenda in response. Being pragmatic means doing more to repeal DADT and DOMA, but doing it in a way that will make it most likely that both will be repealed.

Dwight said...

@ Tony C.

>> I'll believe DADT is gone when it is gone and not a minute before: Show me the money.

An entirely reasonable thing to say. And don't worry, if he doesn't follow through I'll be passing the matches to light the torches. :)

I do agree on the matters that you mention in that post, though I suggest they are talking about something quite different than what I was refering to I'll bite.

I think that Obama has, in words but not actions yet, gone even further down that wrong path than Bush did. It isn't a matter of holding people indefinitely without trial. The plan so far is to hold indefinitely even after being found not guilty. It's good that trials, hopefully something resembling a fair one, happen. But when you can just override the outcome of not guilty that makes them the next worst thing to friggin show trials.

I can understand why the Whitehouse might want to hedge their bets here. It's possible that all the screwed up stuff done in the last 6 or so years will get some of these cases tossed or effectively killed due to tainted evidence and such. So this is an attempt to mitigate the damage already done. But I suggest it is trying to dig down to get out of the hole. Fundementally flawed.

However I think that's different than the speech I linked. There hasn't been a Presidential contender that's been willing to stick their neck out as far as Obama has rhetorically on the subject. It is no small measure of political braveness that a nationwide politician to so forcefully state being for the striking down of DOMA and DADT (well more on the former than the later, I recon). And this can help people accept it as a new reality.

As for Obama overiding DADT discharges case by case, a couple problems with that. First is that do we really need [another] President doing a pre-emptive end run of the Legislative Branch? Secondly just forcing them back on the military doesn't address the military organizing integration. Yes the higher ups can bitchslap the lower ranks into line. But part of what made the racial integration of the military so successful is that it didn't just rely on simple chain of command directives.

But the bigger problems are that it is a fix that wouldn't necessarily last a day past Obama in office and that it would create a divisive/antogonist environment in Congress around the matter. People don't like being usurped. An arguement can easily be made that it is better to hold this path as leverage to get the more permanent fix done in Congress.

Gatordad said...

Jacob,

Yeah, I know, you have to be a realist and operate in the real world. Still, I just wish somebody on either side of the aisle would step way out of character and do something substantive just because it's the right thing to do.

Plus I'm just kinda ornery today. One of those days where everythings irritating. And pols are such easy targets to vent at.

ThisIsForTheCool said...

Why is it that if you wish to provide the President more time beyond the 1r nine month to address his agenda, one is considered 'drinking the koolaid'? I believe the reason we have such difficulty in moving forward with a progressive agenda is because progressives like to feed on their young. If President O doesn't do it when you say it must be done (prior to completing even one year of his term), then you are done with him, is such a myopic position to take. I myself will give him room to maneuver since he clearly has a mongolian horde of dissenters, repugs, bluedogs, etc, to deal with.

Tony C. said...

@Dwight:

Not only after being found guilty; the entire system he proposed is upside down; guaranteed to find them guilty regardless of evidence.

1) The ones that can be successfully tried will be tried in court;
2) The ones that may not be convicted in court will be tried by military tribunal;
3) If we don't have enough evidence to convict in a military tribunal; we will have indefinite "preventive detention" reviewed annually by the President.

This system is designed to keep people in jail regardless of actual guilt! The outcome (detention) is pre-determined, the "trials" are just show trials.

Our government has already decided these people are guilty, the purpose of any trial is just to lend an air of officialdom to the pre-determined outcome: lifelong detention.

So, men rounded up on the streets of Baghdad at random to see if they might know anything about Saddam's location or supply chain, and then subsequently shipped to Guantanamo, are now guilty of terrorism despite no shred of evidence anywhere they ever did anything wrong.

The military has already told us that for about 80% of Guantanamo prisoners they have no evidence of wrong-doing whatsoever; yet our politicians insist upon calling these prisoners "the worst of the worst." How do they know? They don't, nobody does, and most of them will have their lives ruined just in case.

These people are guilty until proven innocent, but they will never be given a chance to prove they are innocent, and exactly how does some random Iraqi snagged on the street go about proving innocence anyway?

How would you or I go about proving we are innocent of any terrorist intent to some foreign power that kidnapped us? Just promise them in-between water-boardings and mock executions?

Innocent until proven guilty is not some gift that only Americans should be entitled to receive; it is the only approach that works in preventing totalitarian dictatorship. That is what we now have in the USA. On orders of the POTUS you or I (meaning American citizens) can now be imprisoned, indefinitely, without charges or trial. That is now the law of the land; American citizens can now be deemed enemy combatants by unsubstantiated assertion of the POTUS and then held without a right to see an attorney, or a judge, or to be charged, or to be tried.

This is not just the position of the BUSH administration, this is the position actively asserted and defended by the OBAMA administration and his Attorney General.

Dwight said...

Not only after being found guilty; the entire system he proposed is upside down; guaranteed to find them guilty regardless of evidence.

Well yeah, it's shaping up to be a stacked procedure because of the sorting that looks like is going on. The "even if you actually manage to be found not guilty we might still keep you in jail" clause is just the salt in the wound. I mention it specifically because it isn't Bush's salt. Obama owns that one. :/

It's f*cking depressing is what it is. Like Gatordad I just wish someone with a little friggin pull would stand up and call it out. Call it out for what it is, destructive policy. Not just for the poor SOBs that are getting screwed by it but also the sloppiness that it promotes in investigation.

Miranda rights, not recognizing coerced confessions, requiring meaningful probable cause and such have had the effect of discouraging sloppy shortcuts from law enforcement, thus better investigation procedures.

... enough bitch session.