There's a lot of buzz in the conservative blogosphere today about a new poll put out by the Club For Growth which shows Conservative Party candidate Doug Hoffman leading both Democrat Bill Owens and Republican Dede Scozzafava in the special Congressional election in New York's 23rd Congressional District. The poll shows Hoffman at 31 percent, Owens at 27 percent, Scozzafava at 20 percent, and 22 percent undecided.
It's a bit disturbing how credulously the conservative blogs, most of whom are rooting for Hoffman, are taking this poll. Here are few of the concerns that a more critical observer might ask about it:
-- The Club for Growth endorsed Hoffman and just last week threw $300,000 into the race on his behalf.
-- The sample size is tiny (300 people).
-- The pollster that Club for Growth is using, Basswood Research -- I'm sure does perfectly good work for its clients -- but is not that well known** and is therefore not taking too much reputational risk with this poll. (** I'm told that Basswood does in fact do a decent amount of work for Republican candidates like Tom Coburn and Mark Sanford.)
-- The number of undecideds in the poll -- 22 percent -- is unusual for a poll just eight days out from an election and is higher than what the public polls show.
-- The poll was conducted entirely over the weekend. Although Sunday is a fairly good polling day, Saturdays are not.
-- The narrative that Club for Growth constructs around the poll is that Hoffman is taking votes from Scozzafava, but the poll also shows the Democrat Owens polling quite a bit lower than he does in the public polls. It seems unlikely that Owens voters are defecting to Hoffman. Rather, if Scozzafava's support is indeed collapsing, I'd expect Owens to be picking up some of that support in addition to Hoffman.
-- The poll was released at a time when the NRCC, which has endorsed Scozzafava, is defending its position by citing the polling evidence, and so the incentive to put out some contrary evidence to alter the inflection of the media narrative is quite high.
-- The poll shows that 59 percent of so-called likely voters have no opinion (or haven't heard of) Owens, 48 percent have no opinion of Scozzafava, and 56 percent have no opinion of Hoffman.
-- Only 14 percent of the likely voters in this poll are age 40 or under, as compared with about 40 percent in the Research 2000 poll.
-- Previous polls put out by Basswood Research and the Club for Growth in this race featured highly leading question wording, although that does not appear to be the case here.
Are any of these red flags, unto themselves? No, just a lot of yellow. To be clear, this is very probably not a case, a la Strategic Vision, where the numbers were simply fabricated. But there's an awful lot that a pollster can do short of making up numbers -- asking leading questions, applying implausible likely voter models or demographic weightings, selecting an unorthodox sample frame, etc. -- to produce a result that fits its desired narrative.
It would also not be totally shocking if Hoffman won this race (although I think he'll need to get to at least 37-38 percent of the vote, which is about the minimum that I'd expect Owens to get). But this poll would not give me particularly more confidence in that outcome -- except to the extent that it alters rather than reflects reality. Likewise, those blogs that report on this poll without addressing some of its shortcomings are more interested in advocacy than reporting.
Note: I originally was not aware that the questionnaire were in fact available for this poll, which I've subsequently been alerted to; they answer some questions while raising some fresh ones.
10.26.2009
Reality Check: NY-23 Poll May Seek to Alter, Not Reflect, Reality
by Nate Silver @ 4:29 PM...see also 2009 elections, house, internal polls, new york, ny-23
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85 comments
A Club For Growth poll? Well that explains why Michele Bachmann would have prior knowledge of it. Perhaps even giving it some build-up by talking about it, with no specifics, prior, to give the impression of it being bigger than it is.
I am so excited to see the Conservative Party stealing government seats from Republicans. Republicans began pandering to the evangelicals in the 1980's, ignoring the idea of church and state, and now they are going to pay the price. Goodby GOP................. and good riddance.
By the way - how's that whole Strategic Vision thing working out?
A month ago, it was all over the news. Everyone was doing investigations, clients were asking for information, lawsuits were forthcoming, etc, etc.
Then the news "forgot". The matter simply seems to have been dropped.
What happened with all this? Did we simply let it go?
Wait, when was this polling done in relation to when did Michele Bachmann mentioned Hoffman being ahead of Scozzafava even though no public poll had him anything but 3rd place?
P.S. All 300 respondents (%100.0) responded "VERY LIKELY" as to whether they would vote or not? Is this the raw data in whole or is this a slice of the data, culled out of a larger set of polling data?
That 40% under 40 in the Research 2000 poll actually raises a red flag with me. 14% under 40 is actually much closer to midterm turnout, and I imagine the electorate in an off-year would be even older.
My opinion: one more Dem in the House is currently worth a whole helluva lot more than the VA governorship. If Corzine can barely hold on in NJ and Owens can win this, then I'll consider Election '09 a win for Dems, on the whole. And if the Repubs continue to be torn apart between two candidates in future elections (especially the presidential candidates of 2012) then they aren't coming back next year or any year after that. A fracturing of the evangelical vote along Baptist/Mormon lines would be especially damaging if there were a Huckabee/Romney primary fight similar to the level of contentiousness the Obama/Hillary primaries got to around March of last year. A "protest candidacy" on the right side of the field would not only garuantee Obama's re-election (a la Perot), but permanently estrange the two halves of the conservative base in America along religious lines and that kind of division won't ever go away.
-Jeff
Can someone please explain to me why any state would "opt-out" of the public option. The only concievable reason I can think of is politics. ie- a health insurance company will give the politician money for a campaign to not allow competition or a Republican state where a politician can spin not having a public option as a good idea. I don't get it and I need an explanation. I'm for health-care reform, but my preference is #1 A public option for all states #2 A trigger (although it's a severely flawed idea #3 No public option at all. I think "opt-out" is an absurd idea where Republican states will opt-out and Demcoratic states won't. It's pure politics. What could possibly be a good reason for a state to not have a public option? Somebody please explain what I'm missing!!!!
However 65% are 55 and over which seems unrealistic to me and 48% identified themselves as republicans against 36% as democrats is this a reliable breakdown for this area?
I predict that in the very near future polls will be so biased and useless that no one will put any faith in them. This will happen once the number of daily polls taken across the country breaks the 10,000 mark.
Once upon a time polling performed a useful function. Now however it is just one more tentacle of some candidate/issue’s PR machine. How can anyone know what’s going on when the aggregate of all daily polls show a complete range of opinions on every issue? Nate tackled only one loopy pollster in this blog, while uncounted others are still out there spewing crap (Raspublican, anyone?)
There’s no way to keep up with the truth amidst the blizzard of polling lies.
@Eric
It's intended to be a passable compromise. You're right about the initial likely outcome. However, when states w/ a public option end up having much more affordable (and equivalent quality) health care, those without would obviously demand change. In the (extremely unlikely) scenario that the public option is indeed worthless, states can get rid of it without congressional intervention. That's my understanding of the idea anyhow.
Eric…
“Opt-out” is an absurd idea, and it was only put in the bill so the über-right couldn’t complain that a public option was being shoved down their throats. Even in “red” states the public option has wide appeal, so while the governments of some reactionary states might be opposed to a public option the people of those states might not be, and the politicians would ignore this at their peril.
P.S. All 300 respondents (%100.0) responded "VERY LIKELY" as to whether they would vote or not? Is this the raw data in whole or is this a slice of the data, culled out of a larger set of polling data?
Unless New Yorkers are quite a bit more enthused about special elections than usual, I've got to imagine that they cut out anyone who wasn't "VERY LIKELY" to vote.
So that by itself would raise all kinds of obvious objections - but then my question becomes, what are the odds that exactly 300 people answered that?
Sorry to those debating the legitimacy of the Club For Growth poll. I will add my opinion, that the Poll's sampling does not appear to be representative of the population.
Eric,
This is probably a better question for "60 vs. 61" but, motivation for an opt-out option, in my opinion, is purely political. I imagine Democrats are gambling on the possibility of easing Republican fears by giving Republican States the right to opt-out of the public option. Truth of the matter is, for financial reasons most states will ultimately opt-in.
but then my question becomes, what are the odds that exactly 300 people answered that?
Dunno what the odds are, but I am sure it wouldn't be too difficult to decide to cull the sample size to the number who answered very likely, rounded down to the next even hundred. That's assuming we're implying that something fishy is going on, which of course, we're not. ;)
Perhaps they just kept calling people until they got 300 people to respond "very likely" then stopped the poll at that point?
I would be interested to see what the age breakdown was for the district in 2008 and 2006. The 65% of respondents being age 55+ did jump out at me. That could be skewing the results.
wv: nownging, its the new pwning
Not at all uncommon in polling to term anyone who answers a screener question negatively. If they're not interested in the demographics of people who aren't likely to vote, ie, don't care about reporting LV numbers, then this isn't unreasonable at all. Undoubtedly saves money for the client, as they probably pay by the complete, and for the polling agency, as if you just term the people right away you don't have to collect demographic data.
Why exactly 300? That's probably how the job was bid; they asked for 300 completes, and got them. The polling agency called people until it reached 300, then stopped calling people. It's called a quota, and is again standard methodology.
I don't know enough about the area to question or not question the demographic data; while the survey was obviously paid for by a conservative group [hence the breakout of 'somewhat conservative/very conservative] there's nothing that jumps out to me as odd. I'm sort of surprised they got so many >55 respondents on the weekend as compared to younger respondents [65% 55-64 or 65+] as at least on sunday you usually get a more balanced population, unless that really reflects the area's population, in which case people really need to think about moving to warmer climes when they retire :)
I would think that a 5.5% margin of error combined with an unproven and undisclosed likely voter model is a BIG red flag.
Even though I would love to see Hoffman pull this off, I didn't bother posting this poll when I read it this morning because of that big red flag.
The only thing that is mildly interesting in this polling is that Hoffman has been consistently gaining in the same polling. Gaining to what percentage is the real question that this poll does not answer with any degree of reliability.
RE: The "opt out"
Thanks guys. I had a feeling I wasn't missing much. I guess it's true that if it has value in the states it's used in, the states that opt-out will jeopardize their elected positions if they don't take it. The truth is there aren't 60 votes for a full public option, so the choices are push it through with reconciliation, a trigger, or an opt-out, or none at all. Perhaps this opt-out thing is the best alternative among 4 bad ones. To me it's absolutely absurd and is an obvious political tool. I live in Texas, I wonder what Kay Bailey Hutchison will decide to do when she's Governor. I'd say if the same amount of states that wouldn't accept stimulus money, "opt-out" of the public option, it won't be a big deal, like a handful of states...
If, on the other hand it's like 1/2 and 1/2 then it's really, really stupid. The "opt-out" states will be subsidizing the non opt-out states.
I for one find it extremely weird that this poll features “likely voters” who, by and large, had “no opinion of” or “haven’t heard of” any of the three candidates in the Congress race. The numbers, combined, are—Owens 59.4%, Scozzafava 47.7%, Hoffman 56%.
C’mon already. “Likely voters” have such ignorance about the people running?
100% of the 300 are "very likely to vote," but nearly half of the respondents have no opinion of the candidates?
What a population! Enthused and clueless.
Prag, you beat me to the punch!
I think this is a fine enough poll, but of the wrong population - very likely voters. However, since we are interested in election outcomes, that isn't a very useful sampling frame.
What this poll does show is that the far right is indeed very motivated. Of course we already know that from looking at say, Rasmussen's polls (which also focus on likely voters).
This race suggests to me that the GOP is a lot like the Dems were in 1968-1972. There is a huge divide between activists and the party, and, lacking power, the latter can't buy off dissidents. In a primary contest, it is not hard to imagine the GOP nominating a Republican McGovern... perhaps some future Eagleton might opine they are becoming the party of "bombs, bigots and bubbas".
hosertohoosier…
You forgot to add a couple “b”’s to your list—bimbos and bazookas.
BDP…
I’m always up for beating a Republican.
:o) :o) :o)
So fishy Bart wouldn't even link it. I believe that officially sticks a fork in it, it's done.
P.S. Thank you Bart for proving my underestimation of you wrong. I did NOT expect this response from you. :)
I don't know if anyone will be able to answer this, but what happens if the GOP voters decide their guy cannot win? Do they jump ship and vote for the Conservative, do they get bitter about it and vote Democrat? How would that affect the race?
technical question, but i can't find it answered elsewhere on the web:
Doug Hoffman is running under the Conservative Party, not the Republican. So if he wins, would he then become a Republican? Or do we have our first third-party Representative since Sanders?
Marsha, My guess would be that he would do what Sanders did. He will remain a Conservative but caucus with the GOP.
Isn't 'Hair Club for Growth' one of those righty organizations like those other ones who all use the word 'freedom' in their name?
The poll is bogus. Palin is not a team player for endorsing Hoffman and only looks out for herself. She just has to have attention all the time.
Matt Hogan, what in the world are you talking about in saying 14% is more likely than 40% for under-40 vote share? Your claim is absurd on its face. The only thing that explains your assertion that doesn't make you look bad is you're having a case of temporary dyslexia and mistaking under-40 for "under-30." Yes, 18-to-29 voters will be a small vote share, perhaps 14%. But once you get into the 30s, voting participation skyrockets. That 40% of all voters in an election, even a special election skewing older, would be under 40 years of age is completely normal.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have found the one thing that unites both Prag and Bart: Mutual disdain towards Deidre Scozzafava. (Am I spelling that correctly?)
The top-lines sound really suspicious, simply because I can't imagine nearly 40% of New Yorkers voting for a freaking Constitution Party candidate. This is a state with a 24-member majority for the Democratic caucus, or thereabouts. There are something like three Republicans remaining from New York.
And if all of the respondents are very likely to vote, the fact that 22% are undecided is very suspicious in and of itself.
I don't care - this isn't going to affect the workings of the House, really. (I should note that non-Blue Dog Dems are close to a majority on their own, and NY-23 will not put them over the top without Blue Dogs.) I just don't think that NY-23 would be best represented by a Freeper in a business suit.
(For the record, I'm neutral on Scozzafava. Besides, I have my own stuff to worry about (re: the clusterfuck between the Delaware and the Hudson).)
Something funny about the party registration given in the poll. One of the questions asked is:
"With which political party are you registered?" and the responses are:
Democratic: 36.0
Republican: 48.3
Independent/no party: 13.3
Conservative: 0.7
Other: 0.3
Refused: 1.3
According to The Albany Project (http://www.thealbanyproject.com/diary/6496/ny23-23rd-congressional-district-race-at-a-glance), the party registration breakdown is as follows:
Democratic: 30.8
Republican: 42.7
Independent: 5.0
Conservative: 1.4
Blank (intentionally): 19.4
Others (total registrants: Working Families: 1,482; Green: 911; Libertarian: 77; Socialist: 3) total about 2.0%.
Granted the above (official) registration figures are from June 23, does anyone believe that Conservative Party registration DECREASED from 1.4% to .7%, yet the Conservative Party candidate is 'leading' the race?
Mike in Maryland
wv: 'etannest' [speaking of Bo-ner, with a Scottish accent] "e tannest Congresscritter".
Any of you statistical experts have an opinion on http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/10/26/whats_up_with_rasmussen.html and Scott Rasmussen's response?
I am sick and tired of hearing Republicans claim people don't want the public option based on Rasmussen and ignoring all the other polls.
Mike, that doesn't mean CP registration decreased. It means that they found exactly 2 out of 300 likely voters who are CP members.
Using the binomial theorem, the chance of finding 2 CP voters out of 300 is (.986)^298 * (.014)^2 * 300 * 299 / 2 = 13.2%. (There's a 6.2% chance of finding exactly 1 and a 1.5% chance of finding none.) So that's not a red flag or even a yellow one.
Inferno, the Conservative Party isn't the Constitution Party. The CP's been around for much longer (it famously elected James Buckley to the Senate in 1970) and isn't a vanity party the way the other CP is.
Jayant, Nate's own analysis of the Maine election coming up showed that no more than 28% of voters were under 40 in 2006. PPP's poll of the state for Prop 1 showed only 24% of likely voters under 40. This area of New York has an old population, and the area has suffered a lot of brain drain. Plus, this special election had even less warning than Maine's off year race. Fourteen probably is closer to the truth than forty.
Bart, oh Bart. Whilst I normally ignore your fantasy world , I just couldn't help myself in posting these. I anxiously await you irrationale on refuting these (I just made that word up).
The myth of global cooling:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33482750/ns/us_news-environment/
And look, the public option is alive and well:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33479225/ns/politics-health_care_reform/
Sucks to be you.
Oh my gosh. I just heard a commercial during the news that Dodge trucks received the Strategic Visions award for truck of the year or something or other. Different SV?
bradams…
Well I’m not a statistics expert but I can certainly venture an opinion, and that is that Rasmussen (a.k.a. Raspublican) has an axe to grind for the GOP. Your link is highly instructive. Andrew Sullivan’s comment says it all: “It’s perfectly clear that Rasmussen is polling a different country than other polling outfits.”
TROLL Jenkins:
Maybe it doesn't raise a flag for you, but then again, you're a TROLL, and I doubt is you would see any flags (unless you perceive an Acorn connection, or Faux News, limpballs, et. al., told you that you see a flag of some color).
Further, there is a difference in the number who are registered as Democrats vs. those polled (modest increase in the poll), those who are registered as Republicans vs. those polled (modest increase in the poll), and the number who are registered as Independent/no party vs. those polled (dramatic decrease in the poll).
All in all, the party registration figures found for polling purposes is nowhere near the actual registration figures. Doesn't raise a red flag to you, or at least a yellow one?
After all, what are the odds of finding almost 6% more Democrats than the registration shows should be found; almost 6% more Republicans than the registration shows shows should be found; 11.1% FEWER Independents/no party than the registration shows shows should be found; AND only 50% of the number of responders registered as Conservative Party members than such registered voters? And then, finding the Conservative Party candidate is winning AND a majority of those polled have No Opinion/Don't know any of the other candidates AND 22% don't know who they are going to vote for a week out from the election?
A lot of implausibilities there, TROLL Jenkins.
Mike in Maryland
Regarding Raspublican's 'likely voter' model, it totally depends on how you configure that model.
Let's say I was to be polled for the 2004 Presidential general election, and the likely voter model is 'votes in the last three Presidential general elections'.
My record?
1992 - Out of state relative died totally unexpectedly, and I was at the funeral;
1996 - voted
2000 - Commuter train broke down, and I wasn't able to get to the poll until after the polls closed. I missed 2 of 3. Not a likely voter, was I?
Let's look at my TOTAL voting record during that period:
1992 - Primary
1994 - Primary and general
1995 - Primary and general (city election)
1996 - Special primary and special general elections to fill a vacant Congressional seat.
1996 - Primary and general
1998 - Primary and general
2000 - Primary
2002 - Primary and general
2003 - Primary and general (city election)
2004 - Primary
So, between January 1, 1992 and October 31, 2004, I was eligible for 17 elections and I voted in 15 of them. Who would NOT consider me a likely voter?
Mike in Maryland
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Mike in Maryland
I too see nothing wrong with the ID breakdown. The diffrence in the conservative party ID in the poll and registration numbers equates to contacting 2 members vs 4. Maybe conservative party members are more likely to be outside on weekends Maybe they don't like answering polls. With such a small sample size It takes a very slight difference in the contacted population to radicly skew ID numbers for small parties.
It is expected that people who affiliate with parties are going to be more likely to vote in off year special elections. I would be surprised if the number of independents who vote in this election comes close to their registration rate.
There are many items that lead to doubts of reliability in this poll, but party ID is not one of them.
Mr. Universe said...
Oh my gosh. I just heard a commercial during the news that Dodge trucks received the Strategic Visions award for truck of the year or something or other. Different SV?
Very likely NOT Strategic Visions LLC as featured at 538. The naming of SV LLC headquartered in NOT Atlanta may have been "inspired" by the name an entirely reputable Strategic Visions headquartered in San Fransisco (Nate mentioned this, in his first post about SV I believe).
@Dwight
Yeah, I actually forwarded much of the 538 dialogue to the SV INC. legal dept. in San Diego when it all went down. I think somebody else did a name search and found more than a dozen or so companies using the name. It was just funny to hear it on the tube.
I also asked as others have wondered what the latest is on SV LLC. Seems to have blown over without further fanfare.
bradams said...
Any of you statistical experts have an opinion on http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/10/26/whats_up_with_rasmussen.html and Scott Rasmussen's response?
Remarkably, both Scott Rasmussen and Andrew Sullivan are correct on this occasion. Rasmussen is indeed polling a different country than other polling outfits - likely voters vs. non-voting adult. Scott is correct that likely voters have always been substantially more conservative than non-voting adults.
You see this differential every single presidential election cycle in every single reliable poll as enormous Dem leads collapse as the pollsters move from adults to registered voters to likely voters at the end so they can claim their polls bore some resemblance to the actual vote.
Instead of joining other pollsters by artificially inflating Dem numbers to please their Dem media clients and to play Lucy with the football to the Dem voters' Charlie Brown, Rasmussen gives you the straight likely voter poop all the time.
The truth sometimes hurts. I was distinctly unhappy with Rasmussen's polling in 2008 and it appear that you Dems are now getting your turn.
Bart De Palma…
We agree again—Raspublican does in fact deliver the “poop” every time, otherwise known as bullshit.
Every toddler likes his own particular fairy story when it’s time to go to sleep. Your taste runs to Raspublican…
@MinM- Jenkins is right about the probabilities. The statistical fluctuations in those tiny numbers are huge.
As for whether the likely voter model of the poll is reasonable. who knows?
The standard error of its D-R (or D-C or R-C) difference is in the neighborhood of 5%. Even if their model is ok, the whole poll deserves very little weight. It's at such points that we miss Nate's nice common-sense weighted averages.
Michael(mbw),
"As for whether the likely voter model of the poll is reasonable. who knows?"
Given that they sampled exactly 300 people who answered "very likely" to the question about how likely they are to vote, it looks to me like that response to that question IS their likely voter model.
If Hoffman wins (and I don't think he will), it could be like seeding a cloud with a grain of salt: he could become the nucleus of a Teabagger Caucus, with Ron Paul, Michelle Bachmann, Joe Wilson and others joining together to form a Third-Party Bloc that could extort concessions from the remaining GOP. With the GOP at record levels of toxicity, there is a market out there for a credible conservative party to emerge. There are four main voting blocs in America now, Democrats, Traditional Independents (Obama carried this swing group last year), the rump GOP, and New Independents (post-Bush GOPers who have abandoned the party). A new conservative party would rally the fourth group and give a home to the remaining GOP as their party continues to hemorrhage credibility. Could it happen? I don't know, but we're about to find out...
So is this what Nate does now? He trumps up lackluster arguments against polls and pollsters he does not like?
He struck out against Strategic Vision because he failed to show that trailing digits actually mean something.
Now he is explaining away another poll result he does not like.
Apparently the Club For Growth and Basswood Research are biased, but DailyKos is is a straight shooter?
Sure.
1. The DailyKos poll is the outlier in favor of Owens. It is no more credible than the Basswood poll. It has a greater sample, but is also a week old.
2. What about the Siena polls that show Hoffman gaining 9 points in 2 weeks and at 23% TWO WEEKS ago?
Is it outrageous that the endorsement of numerous Republicans and an influx of cash in the last two weeks could garner and additional 8% in TWO WEEKS time?
No, not at all, especially if Scozzafava is bleeding support as everybody acknowledges she is.
3. Nate wonders how 22% could possibly undecided so close to the election. It seems pretty obvious to me. There are a lot of people suddenly not sure of Scozzafava and waiting to see if Hoffman emerges as the frontrunner.
It is bad news for Owens that he cannot break 35% because that 22% is going to shift wildly to Hoffman or Scozzafava and is enough for either to win.
It is telling that Nate cannot see such an obvious pattern.
Scozzafava will face pressure to drop out in the next week, and may well oblige.
If the Democrats lost this election in a three way against 2 right of center candidates it will be embarrassing.
Just as embarrassing is the thin logic Nate uses to discredit any poll he does not like...
I think several messages have alluded to the problem of a sample size of such small numbers. It is much easier to manipulate (intentionally or unintentionally) the information, or just call upon an unrepresentative sample of voters, from such a small number (unless you're discussing an election in a town of less than, say, 2000-3000 registered voters).
Considering that the sponsor of the poll (Hair Club for Growth [GREAT descriptive for the extremist idiots, Mr. Universe!]) has already endorsed Hoffman, and nationally is fighting the 'regular Republican' Party for 'not being conservative enough' at every opportunity, is it not surprising that they would NOT find it surprising that their favored candidate was leading the poll, and NOT do much digging into the data to see if there is anything that might be wrong on how the poll was conducted?
Mike in Maryland
The fact that DailyKos has 40% of voters under 40 in a special election is absolutely insane.
The 2006 National Midterms had
12% under 30
24% 30-44
This means that probably ~25% of voters were under 40 in a NATIONAL election.
This is a special election. There are no Senators or Governor races on the ballot. This will skew even older.
Upstate NY is one of the older populations in the country.
There is no chance that 40% of voters will be under 40 and Nate should be ashamed for suggesting it should be.
14% may be too low, but 40% is absurd.
Most likely it will land in the 20% range.
Why does Nate think 40% of voters will be under 40?
The 2008 GENERAL ELECTION only had 36% under 40 and that was the YOUNGEST turnout ever.
Maybe Nate is not quite the critical thinker he fancies himself.
It is absolutely hilarious that Nate actually thinks he PROVED that Strategic Vision was making up numbers.
He never proved that trailing digits mean anything, and he only proved they have a different pattern than Quinnipiac polls do.
If he cared about proof he would make his own data available and compare SV against more than a single cherry-picked example.
How about it Nate?
Publish your own data sets for us to review.
10/15 Siena Poll...
Don't Know / No Opinion
Owens: 47%
Hoffman: 63%
Scozzafava: 31%
The number for Hoffman was actually higher in the Siena Poll.
Why didn't Nate mention that?
@Md Mike
(Hair Club for Growth [GREAT descriptive for the extremist idiots, Mr. Universe!])
Yeah well I figured the demographic of this group probably represented the Rogaine caucus.
10/15 Sienna Poll
Imputed from Crosstabs
Voters Age
18-34 20%
35-54 32%
55+ 48%
DailyKos Poll is a JOKE!
Basswood has too few under 40, but not by much.
According to the latest Siena Poll, Hoffman and Scozzafava do best with younger voters anyway.
Owens only gets 27% of the 18-34 vote...
10/1 Siena Poll
Bill Owens gets 16% of the 18-34 Vote.
Hoffman gets 25%
Scozzafava gets 44%
What does that tell you?
The DailyKos poll is a JOKE!
They have 49% of likely voters in the 18-44 group. FOR A SPECIAL ELECTION!
THAT IS HILARIOUS!
This would be the youngest electorate in HISTORY.
The 2006 National Midterms only had 36% in this group.
36%.
This is upstate New York which is far older than an national audience.
Nate reveals his bias a bit more every day.
How can he NOT question the Daily Kos crosstabs?
How?
Just a few figures about New York 23rd (per Room Eight, New York Politics):
Voters - 371,333 registered
Seniors - 78,507
I presume that 'Seniors' means 65+. Seniors constitute 21.1% of the registered voters. The (Hair) Club for Growth estimates that they will be 34.7% of the special election vote, or about 1.64 times their registration numbers.
Unless the (Hair) Club for Growth has some historical reason to think seniors historically vote almost 2/3 OVER their registration per cent, that type of turnout for the Senior age group is very questionable, IMO. I won't dispute that most likely the seniors will vote at a higher rate than non-seniors, but 1.64 times their registration rate? Not. Very. Likely.
Mike in Maryland
潤滑液,SM,內衣,性感內衣,自慰器,充氣娃娃,AV,
情趣,G點,性感丁字褲,情趣,角色扮演服,吊帶襪,丁字褲,情趣用品,無線跳蛋,
按摩棒,電動按摩棒,飛機杯,自慰套,自慰套,情趣用品,情趣內衣,
情趣按摩棒,.,
自慰套,角色扮演,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣跳蛋,
色情小說|七夕情人,一夜情,
@MidPointMan: As I recall, you claimed you had tallied trailing digit data for Rasmussen polls, which you claimed was very similar to the bizarre pattern we see from SV-LLC. You promised twice that you were about to post the data so everyone else could see the same patterns you claimed to have discovered.
I've asked twice for the link. If you are not a troll, you really need to deliver on your promises. If you ARE a troll, just keep making claims about what you've done or know or can prove, and ignore those of us who keep track of you.
Apologies for making that novice mistake, then. Definitely apologies - first day of job training was yesterday, and I left my house at 7 and didn't get back until...8.
Well, disregard my first post. I'll write something that's more on-point after I get to thinking.
I assume that because this is another pollster for conservative groups, that this poll also is attempting to alter reality rather than report on it?
http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2009/10/27/ny-23-poll-hoffman-5/
Whatever you believe, one thing is certain now. This is a two horse race. And Dede ain't either of them.
@MpM- Like Mark Grebner said.
You seem to have lost track of how the SV discussion was left. After cutting them a break by dropping any consideration of the enormous period-10 non-uniformity in their results, I found that the remaining non-uniformity was still extremely unlikely to arise by any standard polling method. This result was accurately discussed in a Wall Street Journal article by 'Numbers Guy' Carl Bialek. SV refused to discuss the issue with the WSJ!.
Michael, Mark -
PROVE THAT SV IS AN OUTLIER.
I have made reference to several other datasets that show that equally improbable distributions happen all the time.
GO LOOK.
You cannot prove that SV is any different than any other pollster except Quinnipiac.
Nate has not, and neither have you.
Make your theories work in the real world.
It is quackery to use a theoretical construct as evidence when there is a world of data available to prove your theory.
You have not because you cannot.
Trailing digit anomalies are NORMAL because methodological controls are NON-RANDOM.
This is so obvious, yet you faux pseudo math geeks cannot understand that randomness is not expected when methodological controls are differend.
You guys are quacks. You do not practice science, you practice quackery.
Prove SV is an outlier among a statistically valid population.
You cannot.
NATE, POST YOUR DATASETS!
PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!
GREBNER -
I DID POST THE LINK TO ROPER CENTER. GO LOOK.
THE DATA IS RIGHT THERE.
USE IT!
Do I need to format it in Excel for you?
This says a lot about your capabilities that you cannot extract data from a web page.
Wow. Helpless.
@MidPointMan
You did talk about a sub-set that you were going to cherry pick out, and that you were going to post links to. But you never followed up in that thread, or subsequent threads on the topic, with links. Then this post came along, and under more strngent analysis with some proper constrols underscored that yeah, SV LLC's data did indeed look pretty damn suspect.
And still you kept your head down. Sorry, your bait-and-switch swindle isn't going to work here.
In this case, I'm guessing that most of the people who are now saying they'd vote for the Republican will do so even if they think he's losing. What out-of-state Republicans don't like is that this is New York, and our Republican party is more liberal than what they call the "base." A lot of those Republican voters are more old-fashioned conservatives, who will vote for their party because they like low taxes and a strong military, but aren't happy with the theocratic, anti-gay, or anti-abortion stuff. Those votes aren't going to go to a Palin-backed Conservative.
Dubious poll obviously. But is it more dubious than the Suffolk poll in NJ that has Corzine up by virtue of assuming 93% turn out? Yea - more than 9 in 10 are supposedly planning to vote. Please.
That's a better known poll and a much more high profile race. And the poll is obviously cooked.
Nate's critical skills only run in one direction.
MPM
When one is intellectually bankrupt ;) in a political discussion, like yourself, do they always resort to capital letters and hyperbole, or is that just your own personal defeatist fetish ...
@shiloh- Huh, you didn't find this cogent technical analysis convincing: "Trailing digit anomalies are NORMAL because methodological controls are NON-RANDOM."? The caps are what persuaded me.
You're the expert here, Nate, so explain to me why I should trust a Kos backed poll (even with a sample size twice as large) more than the CFG poll?
I don't trust the CFG poll any more than you do, but I also don't trust Kos to keep things honest, either.
so who did CFG's poll - Strategic Vision, LLC?
Michael (mbw) said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Did one miss the """;)""". MPM's 1st reply to me a couple mos. ago included ad hominems and he called me an anti-intellectual.
Since then when the winger, yahoo troll shows up at 538, enjoy reminding him that, in fact, he is a one trick pony winger, disingenuously smug, hoity/toity, winger troll who also uses capital letters and hyperbole in just about all of his posts.
But hey, if capital letters and hyperbole was a convincing argument for you, so be it ...
take care
This is exactly how the Republicans got themselves into this ditch.
First, they make some dishonest statement purely because it makes them feel good, and because they think there's a political angle to putting it out there.
Second, they believe the bullshit that they just made up for the purpose of manipulating people.
Third, they base their political strategy on that belief.
And that, my friends, is how you end up with 40 Senate seats and a black guy who's named after the last two bad guys we fought wars against as president.
I hope they never change.
You're the expert here, Nate, so explain to me why I should trust a Kos backed poll (even with a sample size twice as large) more than the CFG poll?
Because the Kos polls are done by Research2000, a highly reputable pollster with a long reputation for reliability, while the Club for Growth poll is put out by some little boutique firm that does push polling for conservative candidates.
Looks like the latest DailyKos / R2000 poll makes an a$$ out of Nate.
It shows Hoffman gaining 9 points.
They still have a wildly biased sample with 49% of LV's in the 44 and under category.
Nate will not question that sample because he does not think critically about polls he loves.
I wonder when Nate will become a true critical thinker and examine polls he emotionally agrees with?
I wonder when he will get around to comparing Strategic Vision to someone other that Quinnipiac?
Never. He is not a serious commentator these days.
Dwight -
I responded to that shame of a post.
Why is it so hard to go examine publicly available poll archives to see if trailing digit "anomalies" are common?
It is not. I did. Skews in trailing digits happen all the time.
Non-cyclic patterns happen all the time.
None of these pseudo-analysts like Gerber or Michael care to test their theory with actual data because they know the theory is bull$hit.
It does not stand up.
That post is easily testable with real data.
They won't test it because it is covering for Nate's shoddy analysis.
Nate is the Joe Morgan of polling analysis.
...an unfortunately biased hack.
On NY-23: The R2k poll shows Owens with a 1 point lead, but seems too weighted toward under-45's for an off-election. Fortunately they give cross-tabs. Shifting 10% of the weight from young to old would shift the margin about 1.2% toward Hoffman. This is way too close to call. Unfortunately, they polled Hoffman voters on their 2nd choice, rather than Scozz voters. So it's hard to estimate what the effect will be of further shifts from Scozz.
@ MpM:
Really this is about MpM.
Deja vu. I once participated in the investigation of an academic case of data fabrication.
1. The perp repeatedly referred to data that we had supposedly been shown but which did not in fact exist.
You have repeatedly described the data links you were about to post or had allegedly posted, without ever providing one such link.
2. When pressed, the perp produced copious amounts of technical-sounding nonsense phrases, very much like "Trailing digit anomalies are NORMAL because methodological controls are NON-RANDOM."
3. When further pressed, the perp produced numerous technical errors indicating a lack of understanding of the basic vocabulary of the field. They sounded a lot like "Non-cyclic patterns happen all the time."
Just to comment on that last point: There was no indication of "non-cyclic" behavior in any of the polling sets. In fact, as I rigorously showed in the discussion any artifacts from treating the data by Fourier series were exactly zero, because the raw frequencies fell to zero at the ends of the 0-100 distribution. The problem with the SV data (as opposed to Nate's larger 2008 set, his Quinnipiac set, and 'steve's' SUSA set) was precisely that it had too much cyclicity mod 10.
(In case you're wondering, the perp lost all appeals, up to and including a federal Circuit Court of Appeals).
MidPointMan said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Let it be noted MPM stopped using capital letters ;) but Nate is the Joe Morgan of polling analysis. he's still using hyperbole!
My fav anti-intellectual really, really does need to start his own political site on the net as he remains jealous of others and very, very angry! an African/American family is living in the White House ...
take care
MidPointMan said...
Dwight -
I responded to that shame of a post.
Going dead silent and disapearing as soon as Mark Grebner asked for the links you'd promised days before.
Yeah, Michael (mbw). I've seen this sort of thing before, too. The first time experiencing someone doing it is truely mind expanding as to what "real" means, how much we trust each other, and how the mechanics of "repeat the lie till they believe it" function.
OK, dumb way to spend time, but I tracked down the data MPM was talking about. He'd posted a link on another site. There were certain issues.
1. He picked highly homogeneous questions, and claimed that this was a feature not a bug!
2. He used only the the low-frequency non-uniformity, exactly the part which I ignored for obvious sound reasons.
3. He looked at data sets which were too small to have any statistical power.
Anyway, just to check, I took the particular pollster (ARG) which he claimed had the wierdest digits. After correcting his data counts (slightly off) and running my program, which he had available, here are the results:
>run
13.6
28.24
8.178148
1.002224
0.421697
Yes, that 1.00 is the ratio of the Fourier power in the bins we look at to that expected under the null hypothesis.
What a fucking waste of time. Back to the World Series.
潤滑液,SM,內衣,性感內衣,自慰器,充氣娃娃,AV,
G點,性感丁字褲,情趣,角色扮演服,吊帶襪,丁字褲,無線跳蛋,
按摩棒,電動按摩棒,飛機杯,自慰套,自慰套,情趣用品,情趣內衣,
情趣按摩棒,.,
角色扮演,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣跳蛋,
情趣,情趣用品,衣蝶,
色情小說|七夕情人,一夜情,
my typo on the ARG #s:
actual
13.8 (mean)
28.96 (var)
8.576925 (filtered var)
1.03586 (ratio to null expectation)
0.399524 (nominal p-value)
Another of MPM's leading candidates for digit anomalies was NBC/WSJ approvals.
The results from the data set he elsewhere cited:
>run
13.8 mean
14.36 var
4.678989 filtered var
0.565095 ratio to null expectation
0.758467 p-value
Verdict: all MPM's intense posts were 100% bullshit.
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