...or so, at least, I predict. And I'm putting my money--and stomach--where my keyboard is, as Nate and I made a two-part bet. We wagered a steak dinner on whether or not Sarah Palin runs for the Republican nomination, me betting she doesn't. We have a second wager on whether she wins the nomination, with me giving Nate 3:1 odds on a cash bet of undisclosed amount that she doesn't. (The second bet is not conditional on the first: If Palin doesn't run at all, I win the steak and the cash.)
Wagers aside, in this post I'll make the case for why I don't think Palin will win and may not even run, and at some future point Nate will provide his response. A new Rasmussen poll shows her trailing by significant margins in head-to-head matchups with Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney. But more on that in a second. Appropos of any sequential decision tree, I will work backward from Palin's prospects of winning the general, to winning the nomination, to the calculus for her even entering the primary in the first place.
For starters, winning the White House against an incumbent is more difficult than in an open-seat year. In the concluding chapter of The Elections of 2008, Yale political scientist David Mayhew pulls back the lens on presidential electoral history to reveal a simple but compelling fact: When an incumbent runs, the party in power wins about two of every three times, but when the seat is open the party in power wins only about half the time. The two-thirds pattern has held more recently, too: Since World War II, there have been 10* elections in which the incumbent--whether he won a first term or succeeded to the White House by death or resignation--has run for re-election: '48, '56, '64, '72, '76, '80, '84, '92, '96 and '04. And the incumbent, and thus the party in power, won seven times.
So a strategic politician seeking the Oval Office should, all else equal, wait until she is not running against an incumbent president enjoying the many advantages incumbency provides, from access to the bully pulpit to control over the levers of government. History says the odds are better if you wait.
But all is not equal every cycle, of course, and maybe the national political environment by late 2010 and early 2011 will look so dismal for Barack Obama that Palin decides to jump in. Presuming she does, what are her chances of winning the nomination?
I realize that polls more than two years out from the Iowa caucuses may well be meaningless, but what's most interesting about the head-to-head matchups between Palin and both Huckabee and Romney is that she is losing to two candidates from very different parts of the GOP coalition. Romney is a very recently converted social conservative who is probably at heart more liberal on social issues than he sold himself in 2008. He's a northerner-midwesterner from the business wing of the party who is expected to struggle with the hardcore, evangelical conservative base, given his social issue flip-flopping and his Mormonism. Yet Palin trails him because, presumably, he outflanks her to the center-right side of the party.
Huckabee? Just the reverse: a southern man of faith with broad appeal to social conservatives who is probably viewed with some wariness by the GOP's business elements. Yet he also leads her, presumably because he has a stronger appeal among the base than does Palin and thus outflanks her from the right. My point is this: Palin's ideological appeal is easily dominated because it is wide but not deep on the far right and neither wide nor deep among the party's institutional and more mainstream elements. Though her chances will increase, perhaps dramatically, if Huckabee opts out--and he very well may, given his rising media presence--it's unclear to me how she can unify the party. Though neither Huckabee nor Romney displays a strong command of foreign and defense policies, on this potentially tiebreaking count Palin for the moment remains as weak if not weaker than either of them--recent speeches in Hong Kong or not.
Here's how that squeeze for Palin is described by Rasmussen:
Suggesting that Romney’s Mormon faith may still be a problem among some Christian conservatives, Palin leads him by 14 points – 52% to 38% - among GOP primary voters who describe themselves as Evangelical Christians. But Romney beats Palin by 26 points among other Protestants – 58% to 32% - and holds similar winning margins among Catholic voters and those of other faiths.Rasmussen notes that Palin's numbers have dropped significantly since polls taken in July prior to her announcing that she would resign the Alaska governorship. And that brings me to the first decision she must make, whether to run or not. I think she won't.
On the other hand, Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, beats Palin by 17 points among Evangelical Christians and 29 points among other Protestants. A similar spread is evident among Republican voters of other faiths, but Huckabee has just an eight-point edge over Palin among Catholic voters.
First, some candidates who run and lose still gain because they emerge as national figures. But Palin already achieved that status in 2008; her marketability is secure, especially given that she presently has a book that rose to the top of the Amazon rankings before it was even available for (non-advance) purchase. (As of this writing it ranks #2.) Palin's star burns bright enough that only a successful bid for the nomination would brighten it, while a failed bid might diminish it. Few failed vice presidential candidates have won so much from a loss as she did last year.
Second, there is the matter of her resignation. I recognize that this may have been done to avoid a potential scandal and even indictment. But if you want to run for president you run for re-election in 2010 and then, and only then, maybe resign the governorship in order to make an unencumbered bid for the White House. The resignation signals her desire, confirmed by the self-interested and possibly unreliable father of her grandson, to cash in now rather than invest in her long-term electoral future. After all, Palin could have reaped the book royalties and still governed Alaska. But she bolted anyway.
In short, the opportunity costs of running seem to me higher for her than not running. Palin has near-universal name recognition, a book that will bring her significant income, and maybe a chance to become a television personality who could some day serve as the Right's answer to Oprah Winfrey. Though the latter may be a bad move for her in the short term, I wouldn't be surprised to see her make a future bid for TV stardom. (Update: When I first posted this, I had not yet seen this item about Palin's scheduled appearance on Oprah's show.)
That reality, coupled with the prospects of, first, an unclear route to the nomination and, second, an equally uncertain path to the White House even if she is nominated, provides Sarah Palin ample disincentive to run at all. Methinks she will play stay-at-home hockey mom in 2012.
*Corrected typo in which I wrote "seven". The data is correct, though: 10 post-war races with incumbents running, seven of whom won.

197 comments
I think she will run for and not win the nomination, meaning you guys will split the bet.
Nate actually thinks she'll win the nomination? Wow, I can't wait to hear the analysis defending that prediction.
She'll run. I don't know about getting the nomination, but she'll definitely run. She spent too much time in 2008 hearing that she was "the next Reagan" and "the future of the party," and you can tell from her demeanor since that she came to believe her own hype. She's not just going to just fade into pundit oblivion. Like Freddy and Jason and Michael Myers, she'll be back, and you can take that to the bank.
I love your work on fivethirtyeight.com but I have to disagree with you and side with Nate on this one. I think Sarah Palin will not only run in 2012, but she will win the nomination. I don't think she has a chance in winning the general election. But she will get the parities nomination. Just look at where the Republican party is headed right now and you can see the far-right and crazy-right are becoming the true power within the party, so much so the moderates are shaking in their boots when it comes to trying to silence them.
Sarah Palin may become a TV personality, but she's not going to be the Right's answer to Oprah Winfrey.
She showed herself to be quite easily stumped during the campaign, answering questions nonsensically and with little regard for ideas or details. Even her resignation speech was rambling and incoherent.
She may do well with a prepared speech at a political rally, but I've never seen her as a commanding presence in any give and take situation.
She might succeed as the next Sally-Jesse Raphael, though.
Don't like your history. Incumbents lost the Presidency in 1976 (Ford), 1980 (Carter), and 1992 (Bush I)
You're right, Nate's wrong. Sarah Palin isn't going to run for president at all. Like Newt Gingrich, her power comes from being someone who might run someday.
And based on the early responses to this post, I'd suggest you take up more people on the bet.
"Since World War II, there have been seven elections in which the incumbent--whether he won a first term or succeeded to the White House by death or resignation--has run for re-election: '48, '56, '64, '72, '76, '80, '84, '92, '96 and '04. And the incumbent, and thus the party in power, won seven times."
What about George H.W. Bush?
Her ego will demand that she runs. Someone with that much ambition doesn't not run for President when they have the chance.
'Since World War II, there have been seven elections in which the incumbent--whether he won a first term or succeeded to the White House by death or resignation--has run for re-election: '48, '56, '64, '72, '76, '80, '84, '92, '96 and '04. And the incumbent, and thus the party in power, won seven times.'
The 'seven' in the first sentence should be changed to 'ten'.
Don't like your history. Incumbents lost the Presidency in 1976 (Ford), 1980 (Carter), and 1992 (Bush I)
His history is right. His count was wrong. There were ten elections listed. Incumbents won 7 of 10 not 7 of 7.
Bob's right, but it's just a misprint...it should say,"of 10 elections since WWII in which the incumbent ran, they've won 7 times"
And a historical precedent that is more predictive of Obama's reelection is that only once in the last 112 years has control of the White House switched parties and then switched back four years later (Carter '76/Reagan '80). Every other time (since the nonconsecutive terms of Grover Cleveland) that control of the White House switched parties, it did not switch back for at least 8 years.
This shouldn't have any effect on the bet however, since the bet is not about who wins the general election.
Give me a break. There's still people running around here in NoVa with Palin 2012 stickers on their cars and the McCain/Palin Stickers with the McCain part ripped off.
And that's NoVa.
As soon as she start running around this country, Republicans will go bonkers. She's their next best hope.
I don't think anyone is going to have a chance again Obama in 2012 since by then all economists believe our economy will have been stabilized and the verdict will be out on if Keynesian economics works. I'm sure Republicans would be thrilled to run an ignoramus like Palin that will be more than willing to act like a complete animal and try and tear down this President and his family.
As a fairly conservative person, the power of the incumbency is something I've thought a lot about too in 2012. Obama may be weakened by 2012, but if you think about a lot of the weak incumbents who have won re-election, just because he's weak doesn't mean he won't win.
George W. Bush was weak in 2004, but he faced a weak John Kerry, and was able to win. Bill Clinton wasn't terribly popular in 1996, but he won against a weak Bob Dole. Harry Truman was supposed to lose in 1952, but he was able to pull it out anyway against Thomas Dewey, who didn't inspire anybody.
It takes more than a weakened incumbent for people to want to make a change. Even if people are even moderately satisfied with where things are, they'll keep the guy who is in charge instead of risking a change. That's a lot of the reason why a weak Bush won in 2004, simply because things were OK (although hardly great) and they didn't want to take their chances with a "Most Liberal Senator" milquetoast like Kerry.
It's part of the reason why I'm not very optimistic about the Republicans in 2012. Most of the people who are being talked about as candidates either just don't really inspire anybody (Pawlenty, Romney, Huckabee) or are just plain scary (Palin). Things will have to just be plain terrible in 2012 for Obama to lose to any of these candidates. If things are merely going OK, even a weakened, tarred and feathered Obama can beat a weak challenger because people won't want to make a change.
It takes an awfully lot of bad things happening for the American voter to want change.
In the analysis of incumbents, it is reasonable to include LBJ in '68 as a failed run. Choosing not to run when he clearly could have is really no different than running and losing. So make it 7 out of 11, not 7 out of 10.
If the GOP sees 2012 as a lost cause, they lose nothing and gain everything by being first to nominate a woman for the top job.
Even if Palin were to get slaughtered in an unprecedented electoral shutout (as opposed to Huckabee or Romney losing in a mere electoral beatdown), the social capital moving forward for the GOP would be substantial.
In 2016, the Democrats would be The Party That First Nominated A Black Man (who happened to win) and the GOP would be The Party That First Nominated A Woman (even though she was never a viable candidate). From a marketing standpoint, it's a wash, and perhaps the best-case scenario for the Republican Party.
I do not think the word "liberal" applies to Romney in any absolute sense. "Liberal" relative to, say, a senator from Oklahoma? Perhaps.
Romney may have stretched his ideology a bit to win election to one term as governor of Massachusetts, but I think he was going against his basic political belief system to do so. Were he to come out in complete support of a woman's right to choose, and in support of same-gender marriages, I'd feel more comfortable about any of his perceived "liberalness."
@hobbes
I don't think that any party would ever see a presidential race as a "lost cause." The stakes are much too high to do anything other than play to win.
Still, though, to get to the nomination, Palin would have to build an incredible political infrastructure, and she'd have to make multiple appearances on all the talking head shows. To get any respect at all, she'll have to remake her image entirely from what it has been the past 14 months, and she'll have to be ready to take serious questions as to why, if she resigned a little over halfway through her term as governor of one of our most sparsely populated states, she now thinks she is capable of leading a nation of 300 million people. Explaining that, essentially, she thought her work was done and that she could better serve the people of Alaska in other capacities won't fly in "real America.
Great bet, Tom. I'm surprised Nate fell for that, considering Palin is trading at 20 on Intrade. Seriously, there's no way Palin is even going to run.
More here:
http://www.wiserthanthecrowd.com/2009/10/nate-silver-makes-terrible-bet.html
I agree, Tom. I have to admit though, that the reason of my thinking is Levi Johnston. He basically said that, while Palin loved campaigning, she didn't really like governing. She thought it was "too hard". And so I believe that she is only in it for the money.
Hobbes said -
In 2016, the Democrats would be The Party That First Nominated A Black Man (who happened to win) and the GOP would be The Party That First Nominated A Woman (even though she was never a viable candidate). From a marketing standpoint, it's a wash, and perhaps the best-case scenario for the Republican Party.
Interesting comment, since back in the days when women didn't have the vote, there was a tendency for conservatives to successfully play women's rights supporters off against opponents of segregation.
At any rate, I don't expect her to get the nomination. I pray that she does, but I don't expect it.
Romney has no chance, ever.
It's very simple. I'd vote for a Mormon (not Romney, of course), in the event that a Mormon was running on a more progressive platform than the alternative choice. (Harry Reid is a Mormon, and he has gotten elected as a Democrat, such as he is, in a state that is not Mormon-majority.) But that's because I'm a tolerant liberal, and I respect other peoples' private religious beliefs, as long as they don't violate my rights.
Romney got elected - in Massachusetts. A super-liberal state with a long history of supporting very moderate local Republicans. It's only quite recently that the Republicans destroyed even the local brand in the northeast.
But he can't put two and two together and figure out where his support came from. He thinks wingnuts will support him for the nomination and then vote for him. It's not going to happen. A large fraction of them will not support a Mormon, either in the primary or in the election.
Palin will not run. She will be content to make money on the sidelines with book deals, speaking engagement, TV shows, etc. She will, however, remain a focal point energy rod of conservative/Libertarian politics.
I love when liberals try to understand Republican primary politics. It’s so precious.
You guys are focusing on the wrong people, Huckabee and Romney. They are going to run, no doubt, but please don’t forget the very real possibility of an emerging dark horse candidacy gaining serious momentum within the ranks. We are hungry for it.
Possibilities:
Petraeus
Thune
Man, a Patraeus/Jindal ticket would kick ass!!
One thing Tom's analysis misses - the analysis is logical and rational. Palin isn't. I don't expect Palin's decision to be made on the sorts of rational factors described in this analysis.
I think Tom gave convincing reasons why Palin won't win. I don't think any of those considerations will figure into her decision to run.
I think it is possible the Republicant party will nominate Palin, for these reasons:
a) the "establishment" part of the party (i.e., the not-insane people) will realize 2012 is an uphill battle, and the Republicants won't really have much chance. Nominating a brainless twerp whom you won't have to risk actually getting into office - but who will mercilessly and amorally attack Obama - might look attractive to them. They let Palin take her shot at the White House, and figure they won't have to deal with her again after her loss.
b) Palin's nutcase rightwing supporters also won't do a rational analysis like Tom's. They'll push for her to run, they'll push for her to get the nomination, they won't even pause to consider the consequences - because they don't consider the consequences of much of anything.
Thus, with pressure from the nuts, and with quiet forbearance from (what's left of) the moderates, she could well get the nod. People like Mittens and Huckster might even like it - they don't get the stigma of having run and lost. That gets laid on Palin.
Seems like a win-win for the Republicants - they're going to lose in 2012 anyway, might as well lose spectacularly in a way they hope will weaken Obama, and in a way that they hope will further marginalize one of their most fervent crazies.
I think these polls need to be done as three-way polls. Is it possible that the 53% or so of Republicans that oppose Palin are doing so because they are "anti-Palin" voters, rather than "pro-Romney" or "pro-Huckabee" voters? If that's the case, then Palin might still be leading a three-way race (i.e. - ~40% for Palin and 30 apiece for Romney/Huckabee).
Something else to consider is this: the more likely it is that the Republican will get blown out by Obama, the more likely Republicans are to nominate Palin. Palin can't win, so she's more likely to be nominated for an election that is not winnable. If Obama's approval is still in the 50's when nomination season rolls around, I think Republicans will nominate Palin.
Wow, you are way overthinking this. Palin doesn't do fancy analysis. It isn't so much that she doesn't care about polls, it is that she doesn't understand them. The best bet is that Palin runs for the nomination, wins the nomination, then quits the race sometime in October of 2012. If you think about it you will realize it is the "Mavericky" thing to do.
Palin will run to gain publicity and contributions. She is in all this for the clothes, the jets, the money. She has left th etrailer park and doesn't want to return.
(A "forgot password?" option would be appreciated.)
Nate-
You are NOT a good gambler. I bet you win the steak dinner, but lose the cash.
GREAT post!
"They are going to run, no doubt, but please don’t forget the very real possibility of an emerging dark horse candidacy gaining serious momentum within the ranks. We are hungry for it."
This seems extremely unlikely to me. In my (admittedly limited) experience observing presidential primaries, it seems to me that there's never been a serious primary contender that wasn't at the very least in the national spotlight of their party at the time of the previous presidential election. IOW, if no one knew who you were 3/4 years ago, your chances of being taken seriously were very small. Have there been any major party presidential candidates (who had to win primaries) that weren't well known at the time of the previous presidential election?
"Possibilities:
Petraeus"
I don't have a link, but I do remember reading a quote from him saying in no uncertain terms that he would never run for political office, ever, period. Probably shouldn't get your hopes up, although I do agree that he's probably a better candidate than anyone else getting lots of attention.
Wow...
Lots of "Liberal" misunderstanding of the Republican party. Rooting for who you want to run against, then believing in it, while ignoring the vast numbers of Republicans and independent leaning republicans who don't speak up as much.
I agree with Tom. Palin likely won't run. If she does, it'll be because she was convinced by an outside group, and will likely drop out quite early..say Iowa Caucuses.
A more likely scenario for the GOP? Something like a Pawlenty/Crist ticket.
One thing I'd disagree with, but which I think is common to these analyses: I don't think a left-to-right scale of Romney-Palin-Huckabee really works. Huckabee has a populist streak that a lot of the purists (including Limbaugh) are very suspicious of. Romney is only what he is that week.
Relations within the hardcore right are much more complicated and dysfunctional than that. They are too rabid to trust anyone who has done anything that sniffs of moderation, and on that scale, Sarah should be their favourite.
I think the better question to ask is what the dynamics of a Palin/Romney/Huckabee three-way would look like, and I'd guess that Romney and Huck would destroy each other, and Sarah might emerge.
Also, this post assumes a rational agent in Palin, and I'm not sure there's much to justify that assumption. I think if Katie or Oprah or Jesus says the wrong thing to her, she'll just say, "fuck it" and run.
You guys are thinking like progressives. Think like conservatives!
Here's my rationale:
-Palin is probably aware that her electoral prospects don't look good, but...
-Let's face it, the woman has an ego approximately the size of the state she governed. She wanted to break protocol and give her own "concession speech" (from what I heard of November 4), and she quit her day job to gallivant around the world giving speeches.
-Plus, I have suspicions that there are a lot of "yes-people" surrounding her.
That said, she could feasibly win the Republican nomination, I think. I believe that the strong Republican states in terms of delegates are actually down South - where evangelicals dominate. The question is whether she runs or not, and that's more iffy. Logically, she's not in a good position, and she's going to get CRUSHED in the Northeast. But the NE will be less electorally valuable (hell, even I'll admit that) in 2012 - NY and NJ will almost certainly lose electoral votes, and I don't think things look too good for Pennsylvania, either. Rhode Island may drop back to 1 EV as well - I think they have the two smallest CDs outside of Wyoming.
With shifting party IDs, I'd venture to say that the NE will also lose caucus delegates. But it's still going to be a large chunk because it's a population-rich region of the country.
I also have a serious bet with a friend on Palin's candidacy in 2012. My bet? Palin runs independent! Or more in line with the wording of my bet, she runs as a third party and thus doesn't have to worry about running in a party many are calling not conservative enough; she just has to make her path. Basically she'd run as an issues/populist candidate, which she does well. I think there is no doubt she will be one of the great demagogues/king-makers next time around. Personally my bet is she pulls a Huey Long (he died before he executed his plan): has to run against a great candidate (him FDR, her Obama) so put up a smoke screen of some sort, like he did; perhaps compete in a few republican primaries, let her choice for the nomination be known, drop out and start an independent bid, which is SUPPOSED to lose, but finally show off her viability while making her the great revival of a "real" conservatism. And just like Huey, her real intentions: build a future base for 2016 (him in 1940 I believe). Obama would not be the incumbent; Huey's plan was similar, think about the election AFTER this one!
I'm fairly confident Palin won't run. Tom hits it when he says she has nothing to gain from it. Except of course, the Presidency. But I don't think she really wants to be President. She didn't even want to finish her governorship, once it wasn't all roses and 90% approval ratings.
She's in this game to make money. To quoth that patron saint of greed Blackadder:
"Toffs at the top. Plebs at the bottom. And me in the middle making a fat pile of cash out of both of them."
This is Palin's prerogative. Do you think she'd risk being called out as an intellectual fraud by the very people who have been proping her up all this time? Once Mitt and Huck are her competitors, you can bet they won't be bending over backwards on cable TV anymore defending her credibility. They'll bring it even harder than her liberal detractors have.
So why would she invite the harsh scrutiny of a circular firing squad, when she can sit back and play king maker? Can you imagine the praise and attention she'll receive when the candidates trip over each other in a race to win her endorsement?
She's on track to be more than just a politician. She wants to be an icon. The ceremonial figure head of the party. In a word, Queen. They'll make her the key note speaker of the convention no doubt, and possibly sqeeze in some sort of coronation ceremony. Perhaps, Joe the Plumber can provide the throne.
This is sort of off-topic, but it's not a good idea to put stuff in the middle of a post that is hidden until you choose "expand post". It makes it very hard to read the whole thing, or to even know what you missed reading the contracted version.
People are used to reading the stuff above the cut, clicking on "more...", and then reading what's below. Keep it simple, and your site will be much more readable.
The GOP behind-the-scenes guys have much more power over the IA Caucuses than any of you realise. As a '96 GOP IA Caucus-goer, I discovered that a vote for Lamar Alexander (back when he was a moderate) counted for nothing because Dole was the pre-determined winner. It is a rigged system, that McCain boycotted in 2000 and lost the nomination over. In determining whom will win a party's nomination, don't forget the order the primaries come in.
Also, for those totalling up Pres. Incumbent losses, it is ok to count '68 as a loss/non-win by LBJ, but remember the necessity of the third-party vote stealing the election for the challenger both then (Wallace) and in '92 (Perot). Without a 3rd party guy in the race, incuments hardly ever lose. 1980 and 2000 might've also had outcomes influenced by this factor, so not necessarily a major 3rd party guy, but just remember this fact for future reference. I'm not seeing any spoilers for Obama as of right now. Even Nader should be done running by 2012.
If Huckabee runs, he wins IA by a mile, Pawlenty is second, with or without Palin. Romney wins MI and NH by a mile. Huckabee wins SC and FL chooses the eventual nominee - whomever is the real GOP insider ringer - Romney at this point but that could change. Only possible dark horse is Gingrich who'll be running for VP. He may win FL as his "ticket-dowry". Rudy is out due to his speech impediment - not the lisp, the inability to say words other than "Nine-eleven".
-Jeff
'I think the better question to ask is what the dynamics of a Palin/Romney/Huckabee three-way would look like'
Maybe something like this?
http://assets.thequietus.com/images/articles/562/palin_1224165350_crop_478x318.jpg
jgnesa-
Palin as a third party candidate is truly the wildcard here. She has hinted at it, and her hubby and her are AIP members, thus it is a possibility. There is added incentive when you have Glenn Beck and the Teparty movement actually believing their is a third party out there to be had on the fringe right, and you have a lethal mix - a dumb candidate willing to believe her own press and and psychotics to push her to run. I kinds hope that is the scenario, as it could be the death blow to the weird Reagan Repub party and final split of social conservaitves and fiscal conservatives - who really have nothing in common but a name.
I think she will run, but in the end try to be a TV personality. Her decision will not be a rational one, based on polls. It is all about what is in her head. She has a high opinion of herself, and has a history of beauty pageants. Yet she is not deep and hard working, as a presidential candidate must be. She will be the female version of that other lazy GOP guy, what was his name.
Dick Armey, and his tea baggers are going to make the GOP convention into a freak show. It is going to look like Chicago 68. Before that point, they will probably be heckling all the GOP candidates during the primaries. She may well decide to take her chances on the craps shoot.
I predict that she won't run because she's lazy and thin skinned.
Other than David Fox, there's a great deal of over thinking going on here. She won't run because she doesn't have the stomach for a prolonged national campaign that reveals every wart real and imagined. If she does somehow decide to run, she'll self-destruct.
Sarah Palin is the hands down most popular candidate among the GOP conservative base and Tea Party movement. However, the full court effort to smear her in the Dem media and string of bogus ethics complaints have successfully tarnished her brand in the center. I have never seen another GOP candidate who so effortlessly pushes nearly every single ideological and social hot button on the urban left. Sarah terrifies them.
In any case, the question is whether Sarah can reintroduce herself to the center to fill the vacuum being left by the exodus of center-right Indis from Obama and ingratiate herself with the party elites. She cannot be nominated or win a general election if she cannot successfully do these things.
I have no doubt Palin is currently, albeit unofficially, running for President:
1) Sarah started her reintroduction process to the center with her book and an appearance on Oprah. Every Presidential candidate who later went onto win took this path.
2) Sarah is barnstorming the country picking up chits raising money for 2010 GOP candidates. No one can match her for bringing in crowds.
3) Sarah is giving paid economic and foreign policy speeches to foreign business leaders to establish her bonafides with party leaders.
4) Sarah is bypassing the Dem media and speaking directly to voters from her facebook page, which is being picked up pretty routinely in the conservative press and then by the Dem press playing catchup.
5) Sarah has set up an issues PAC called “Stand Up For Our Nation.”
These are not the actions of a retired politician simply making a living on the rubber chicken circuit.
Time will tell whether her efforts will pay off enough to declare her candidacy in 2011. It would be a mistake to underestimate Sarah, though. The unrelenting attacks against Palin since McCain chose her as his running mate and upstaged him at the convention show that the Dem power players most certainly do not underestimate Sarah.
Palin will not run, or if she does, will not be a credible candidate. Campaigns can hide the running mates or sell them only to friendly crowds, but a Presidential candidate has to talk to everyone, has to give media interviews, debate numerous opponents, and occasionally sound like they know what they are talking about. They also have to put up with constant fair and unfair attacks without breaking. If Palin couldn't handle eight months of attention and criticism as governor, she will not spend a year and a half as a serious presidential candidate.
Funny how after the '08 election, everyone was looking to Republican governors as the hope for the party. It's positively astounding how many of them have since disqualified themselves from serious consideration in 2012:
-Palin resigned her position because she couldn't stand the criticism
-Crist chose to run for the Senate instead (still a potential VP though)
-Daniels took himself out of the race
-Jindal bombed his introduction to the nation (also, he would have to give up his office to run, seems more likely to run for reelection)
-Sanford went for a hike on the Argentine Trail
-Perry started talking secession
-Huntsman accepted a post in the Obama administration
That leaves only rehashes like Mittens and the Huckster, or vomit-inducing candidates like Tim Pawlenty. "The future of the Party" seems to have bowed out of this race.
Huck could position himself as a post-Obama candidate for 2016, building on Obama's accomplishments rather than repudiating them, but with a social conservative emphasis.
But if Obama is in trouble in 2012, it will only be because the economy has not rebounded. In that circumstance, Romney is the only one who could beat him. No one turns to a lulu like Palin in a time of uncertainty and suffering; if she ever wins, it will be because, like in 2000, the right-wing "feel good" choice doesn't seem especially risky. Again, worth looking at as a longshot for 2016, but no way in 2012.
BdP-
Sarah terrifies noone, but she makes alot of us ill that our fellow Americans could conceivably elect anyone to office in any state with so little experience, intelligence or ability. It shows how disjointed the far right is from the rest of the country, even the center.
Why is it that people think of Romney as the strong candidate on the economy (admittedly, there aren't many in the GOP)?
He didn't do a whole hell of a lot for the MA economy while governor, his only experience in public life.
All that he is done is personally benefit from the economy. Why should that be equated with knowing how to manage it?
Tom -- your logic is predicated on the idea that what she cares most about is winning (and secondarily, that losing would be bad for her prospects.)
I think she'll run because she will see it as a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose scenario. Specifically, I think she'll run in the primaries so that if she loses, she can spend four more years milking her wingnut followers about how she was sandbagged by the institutional GOP. (Actually, it'll be "when she loses," but she has enough of an ego that I'm sure she considers it only a backup plan.)
I don't disagree with your analysis that losing is generally bad for someone who already has universal name recognition, but remember, the vast majority of Palin's appeal is based on playing the victim, and that's going to need a recharge by 2012, name recognition or no.
So that's my prediction -- she definitely runs in the primaries, doesn't come close to winning (because she doesn't do "hard work" or "planning") and spends the next four years milking it.
Petraeus? And what happens if foreign policy (specifically as it relates to military action) isn't anywhere near the top of the "most-import-issues" list? What happens if the economy is still the dominant issue, or something else that we haven't even considered yet? I can see a Petraeus candidate as being quite a bit like McCain. Strong on defense, strong on foreign policy, tepid or waffling or indifferent on everything else.
Jacob, I agree that Romney's executive acumen is more legendary than factual, but it's a perception widely held by the public and (probably more importantly) the media.
Jacob-
Romney is a hilarious hypocrite on so many levels, not the least of which was his push for universal healthcare in MA and his current attacks on the same essential plan when it put forward by the dems.
He is viewed as an "econ guy" because as you note, he is a succesful businessman. How personal economics really translate to knowledge of the macro-economy is a bit of a stretch, but...
Can we get Bernanke to run in 2016?
The guy who will excite the right in 2012 has not been mentioned yet, I think that is David Patreus (sp?).
It should be cake to see if Palin can secure the nomination. What is the percent WEC (white evangelical christian) in the GOP?
In 2008 it was 50% in the exit polling.
I am disinclined to pay 20$ for a month of house bias, but someone that has access to the Rasmussen crosstabs could do it easily.
;)
@Bradford
He is viewed as an "econ guy" because as you note, he is a succesful businessman. How personal economics really translate to knowledge of the macro-economy is a bit of a stretch, but...
We just had eight years of a president who pledged to run the country like a business. Didn't work out too well. I don't think Mittens will work out any better, and if this is his main selling point, he won't do well in the campaign - it'll be a liability, not an asset.
A couple years of less-than-expected enthusiasm for the idea of "Sarah Palin" will probably turn her off to the idea of running.
Only way i can see it working is if Huck and Romn make some hideous gaffes that put them out of the running. Like if they got caught in a hotel room with each other. It would have to be that far out. And it ain't gonna be.
Bradford said...
BdP-Sarah terrifies noone, but she makes alot of us ill that our fellow Americans could conceivably elect anyone to office in any state with so little experience, intelligence or ability. It shows how disjointed the far right is from the rest of the country, even the center.
Folks do not bother spending the time to throw tons of mud against unsuccessful VP candidates who are merely irritating, inept or inconsequential. Compare the ongoing fixation with Sarah Palin to the post election coverage of Dan Quayle or Geraldine Ferraro.
The reason why the Ensign and Sanford (and Vitter to a lesser extent) affairs is so big a loss for the GOP is the fact that these guys were young and viable running-mate material without any established accomplishments of their own. They'd be perfect regionally-popular VPs to the big candidates for 2012. Without a Southerner, Mitt is toast already. No need to even spend the money. I think, since he can't stand Huckabee, he has to run with Gingrich and accept the huge ego (and head) that comes with that as the price of having even a 30% chance. And since Ensign is off the table for Huckabee the likelihood is that he doesn't even run in 2012, or does so with Pawlenty as a Plan B alternative. That's not a winning ticket, but it's better than nothing. Palin is not in the net positive in AK any more, so she's not even running-mate material. Since a lot of people like Pawlenty run just to get the consolation prize of VP Nominee/Miss Congeniality, she can't even be advised to do this. And why spend millions to run if you can't win a rigged system? I'm sure she'd rather have the money than throw it away and that's the real value she has that's being forgotten here - greed.
-Jeff
Dan Quayle immediately dropped out of sight, Palin has gone out of her way to make a spectacle of herself. No comparison there.
If Danny Boy had a potential divorce, ran from the media, cried that people hated him, had a child pregnant by a kid posing for Playgirl, retired from "public life", and essentially tried to be an "it" girl, etc I bet he would have had more press. Quayle's dad owned the papers in Indiana, thus he could easily slink to a stupid retirement.
Folks do not bother spending the time to throw tons of mud against unsuccessful VP candidates
Baghdad, we're not throwing mud at her, we're laughing at the idiots who think she should be president.
BdP -
Both Quyale and Ferraro pretty much stayed out of the public eye after the election. And neither of them had a rabid nutball following hawking them for future presidential runs.
She doesn't scare us, Brian. For me personally, she's an endless source of amusement - and the people pushing her candidacy, even more so.
I know, you're a firm believer in the idea that if you say something enough times, that makes it true - and that what you imagine is the way the world really is. She's about as frightening as a poodle in a bikini.
shrinkers-
Dogs and bikinis, two of my favorites - just not together.
"... have never seen another GOP candidate who so effortlessly pushes nearly every single ideological and social hot button on the urban left. Sarah terrifies them."
Your sanctimonious, smug, yet wildly inaccurate posts are so amusing. Sarah does not terrify those of us on the left or in the center. Personally, what I find terrifying that that there are just enough ignorant, uneducated, unintelligent, right wing whack jobs that think Sarah is "great." The whole concept that our elected officials, and specifically, the President, "is just like me, so I am going to vote for them" brought us GWB. Remember? They guy you could drink a beer with?
Why exactly is she qualified for POTUS? Cause she's a hockey mom? Cause she was the governor of a state with a smaller population than Columbus, Ohio? Cause she shops at Walmart?
Of course, the Shrilla from Wasilla will actually have to give interviews, and answer questions and I can't see her surviving the media scrutiny. I would LOVE to see her debate Gingrich and Romney though..that would be priceless..
Sadly enough, the dumbing down of American continues and there might be enough people to disregard her complete lack of original thought, complete lack intellectual curiousity, and the fact that she is proud of both, to think this makes her an excellent candidate for POTUS. It worked for Bush.
Palin's star burns bright enough that only a successful bid for the nomination would brighten it, while a failed bid might diminish it.
This seems to be the key thesis of the argument.
I'm not sure how strenuously I can disagree with it. Will Palin's star be dimmer in 2013 than it is now if she loses the nomination?
Almost definitely, yes.
But the bottom line is:
That would have happened anyway. People forget. Somebody else becomes famous.
If her ultimate goal is to cash in and make money, she needs to stay in the public eye. She needs publicity and she can only get that by running.
If her ultimate goal is to become president, well obviously she needs to run at some point. The odds will be against her in 2012, but I think they'd be more against her in 2016. She'd be even more of a has-been by then.
I guess I see not running as having more hazards to her than running does.
Palin can win the Republican nomination if she's able to swamp the primaries with religious voters. It's possible she could pull that off. The route to victory in the primary process is usually one of building momentum early and becoming "inevitable." But, as the Obama-Clinton battle showed, sometimes it can become a matter of simply out-slugging your opponent in a long and basically even battle.
If Palin survived the early primaries and got to Super Tuesday, she'd pick up huge numbers of delegates from southern and some western and even midwestern states and might well be able to overcome the fact that the northeast will shut her out. It would necessarily be a drawn-out process, because she'd be a regional candidate to some degree, even for a Republican (that is, even in what is fast becoming a regional party). But if you do the math, the votes are there if she plays her cards right.
But this raises another question: the Obama-Clinton battle took place because the challenger to the party establishment, Obama, was able to build AND FINANCE a campaign organization which enabled him to out-maneuver Clinton in such ways as focusing on caucus states, giving him delegates that a less sophisticated outfit could not have won. Where will those people come from for Palin, whose campaign staff, as far as I can tell, consists of her husband? Certainly she did not demonstrate an ability to take direction in 2008. Whatever one thinks of the McCain campaign leadership, one must concede that it knew better than she did or does how to campaign in the lower 48.
I think that while Palin certainly has the POTENTIAL to take the Republican nomination, where she'll fall short is in the mechanics of how to do that. The road is long and there are many setbacks, and I cannot imagine a person with her intolerance for criticism and for nuance to put together and make use of the kind of campaign organization she will need to win.
When the issue was winning the one vote needed to become the vice presidential nominee, none of this was relevant. That day will not come again.
Seriously though, who are the credible Republican candidates? I mean, Petraeus? Not only does he not want to run, have no elected experience, and no non-military experience, but I'm not even sure that he's a Republican.
Aside from Palin (who wouldn't last long if she ran), they have:
Romney
Paul/G. Johnson
Huckabee
TPaw
Newt
Frothy Mixture
Thune
Barbour
Even if Obama is fairly weak, I can't imagine any one of those guys becoming a serious challenger. Although I think Crist or TPaw could be a solid running mate for almost anyone on that list, the ticket is bound to be top-light.
please don’t forget the very real possibility of an emerging dark horse candidacy gaining serious momentum within the ranks. We are hungry for it.
Possibilities:
Petraeus
Thune
Oh, Walker. You big silly. Go get back on the couch with your wife. The 700 Club is about to begin.
Like a career military guy with no political chops is going to drop what he's doing to run for Prez. And I doubt if any Republican would ever vote for a closet gay. I could be wrong.
No, Huckabee is the biggest threat to the rest of us you've got going.
Someone or other wrote:
This seems extremely unlikely to me. In my (admittedly limited) experience observing presidential primaries, it seems to me that there's never been a serious primary contender that wasn't at the very least in the national spotlight of their party at the time of the previous presidential election. IOW, if no one knew who you were 3/4 years ago, your chances of being taken seriously were very small. Have there been any major party presidential candidates (who had to win primaries) that weren't well known at the time of the previous presidential election?
********
How about Wendell Willkie, the Republican victim in 1940? Who the hell had ever heard of *him*? Either before the election or afterwards? He was, I believe, either a Wall Street lawyer or utility executive, or maybe both, and was just a sacrifice to FDR....
http://www.villagevoice.com/2007-05-08/news/guy-in-a-reagan-mask-runs-for-president/
Maybe this candidate can win—he’s what Republicans have been searching for for 20 years!
That having been said, I think I might go with Nate on this one. I don't think you can apply rational arguments to the irrational Palin. Heck, she might even make a decision based on her book sales. Who knows?
The best thing Caribou Barbie could ever have is a decent speechwriter. At least she had a ghostwriter to help her clarify her thoughts. Oprah should be interesting.
I generally agree with Tom. But he could definitely making the assumption that she is a rational actor when her behavior suggests she may act irrationally.
Blogger Hayford Peirce said...
But since the advent of primaries as the preferred method of selecting nominees in 1952 (and the only method after 1972), total unknowns have rarely made it.
But that doesn't mean we won't see someone who is partly out of left field:
Although they already had achieved some political success, Carter, Clinton, and W were not really heavyweights 4 years before winning the nomination.
The Republican establishment that still calls the shots in that party (just look at their Congressional leadership, and not the backbenchers) is pro-business and pro-business-as-usual. The only time the party nominated a non-establishment candidate for president in the last century was Goldwater in 1964, and his defeat meant that they won't venture outside of their ranks again.
Even with the teabaggers out in full force, the GOP establishment is still calling the shots. The tea party movement, after all, is being bankrolled by establishment-run lobbying groups and promoted by establishment-owned talk radio networks and Fox News. I suspect that the tea party movement was originally conceived as a diversion while the establishment reorganized their ranks after the Bush administration, but they miscalculated how unpopular they are among the far-right populist base, and their creation may be growing into something beyond their control.
The teabaggers are a minute segment of the overall population—10 percent at most. But at a time when less than a quarter of voters identify as Republicans, they become a force to be reckoned with inside their party. Still, the rabble-rousers would be lost without the establishment's ability to organize them; I imagine the tea party movement will be mostly dissipated by the 2012 primaries, and the GOP will go on with business as usual. Mitt Romney is the archetype of the establishment candidate, so I imagine the party higher-ups will ram him through to the nomination, come Hell or high water. Unless the teabaggers can stay relevant for the next two years and all agree to back Sarah Palin, she won't run. Even if that happens, she would still face long odds.
"How about Wendell Willkie, the Republican victim in 1940? Who the hell had ever heard of *him*? "
Thanks. Looks like you're right that he was basically unknown prior to the primary season (just did some reading on wikipedia). From my brief perusal of the article, it seems like the main reason he had more support over the other three primary candidates was that unlike the others, he was not an isolationist, and joining/supporting the war effort was becoming increasingly popular.
If this is the reason, then it seems like the key to being a dark horse primary winner is to buck the party line in favor of a populist position (and indeed, Wilkie's support seems to have been mostly a grassroots campaign). If so, I wonder what platform a dark horse candidate would have to campaign on in 2012 to beat out ALL the pre-established republican candidates?
Its a good reflection of just how sad a state of affairs the GOP is in if Huckabee is leading any poll.
Palin is the only one who irritates the communist to the point they are bound to over step and "step in it."
I still wish Fred Thompson would get the nod... and what about Petraeus?
Adam M, you underestimate the rage of the right over the communist take over.
Jacob: Hell, even Obama. He gave a great speech at the '04 DNC, but at that time he was in a race against the guy who was fucking Seven of Nine. (Or was that after he dropped out and Crazy Alan Keyes decided to pack his bags from Maryland?) Keep in mind, at the time the highest office he'd held was state senator (though yes, in 2005 he did win election and become a United States senator).
Of course, on the other hand: I've heard that Bill Clinton's '88 DNC speech was universally panned, so he's probably more apt.
shrinkers: I believe you mean a pitbull in a bikini. ;)
In general: Yeah, we probably are overthinking this. And actually, our girl Sarah hasn't been that noisy lately since the entire imbroglio with resigning the Governorship. (She - yes - is dragging down the collective IQ of Facebook, but honestly, she's just blogging really.)
Like I said, though, I'm a bit more optimistic on her chances of winning the nomination (and even the Presidency) - the Northeast just isn't that important to Republicans anymore, Texas will become more important due to growth, and it is feasible that VA and NC flip back into the R column, along with FL, OH (which, if you'll recall, spawned both Sam Wurzelbacher and some guy whose last name looks suspiciously like the slang term for an erect penis - and I haven't even gotten to Mean Jean yet), IN, so on and so forth. All she needs are 270 EVs, and she's president.
Keep in mind, Dubya didn't get more than ~280 EVs for either of his terms, if I recall. 50%+1.
Bradford/shrinkers/chgoblue:
She doesn't scare us...
52 threads about Sarah on this blog,
73 comments in less than 5 hours so far on this 52d thread.
16,700,000 hits on google.
Over 3000 current stories on Google news.
Are you trying to convince me or yourselves?
52 threads about Sarah on this blog
Baghdad, laughing at idiots like you is very entertaining.
Robert:
If I had to guess, the GOP dark horse in 2012 would be someone with serious credentials on gutting federal spending. Romney's too keen on corporate welfare, Huckabee's too much of an economic populist, and Palin's views don't articulate that far. If he wasn't going to be 77 by the next election, I'd say Ron Paul would be capable of gaining momentum; before the far right co-opted them, the tea parties were his supporters' idea. Unfortunately, the libertarian wing of the GOP begins and ends with him.
@Inferno
Good point. Though the GOP nominee almost certainly will be someone who is a governor or senator now or has been some point in this decade. Of those 128 people, very very few of them could credibly emerge as a GOP nominee, even as a dark horse. So someone entirely unknown is unlikely.
Also, minor correction--W took 286 EVs in 2004, though only 271 in 2000
"I mean, Petraeus? Not only does he not want to run, have no elected experience, and no non-military experience, but I'm not even sure that he's a Republican."
I still like Ike.
Damn Bart, do you really think that mockery of Palin is entirely out of fear, of all things? Yes, she's funny and knows how to get people's attention, but scary? That's just absurd. I mean are all of you on the right actually afraid of Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden?
Go back to your Sarah Palin wet dream. The rest of us will just keep laughing.
Yes Walker, a Petraeus run would not be unprecedented and there are similarities, but is David Petraeus really an Eisenhower? Maybe, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. And just because no one knew Eisenhower was a Repub in '48 doesn't mean Petraeus is one now.
"Damn Bart, do you really think that mockery of Palin is entirely out of fear, of all things?"
There's really two types of fear to consider. Fear of a theoretical POTUS Palin? Check. Fear of the chances of such a reality? Not so much.
The idea of Palin as POTUS is pretty scary. But that doesn't mean her prospects are actually frightening, much in the same way that a LaRouche POTUS would be frightening, but no one is actually frightened by his prospects.
Jacob-
Patraeus has flirted with the idea, he is a republican, and all he will need is a military background if there is another terrorist attack or Afghanistan turns into Vietnam.
BdP-
Palin is the "it" girl (famous for being famous), that is much different from being a serious candidate or threat to Dems. Palin is the Britney Spears of politics, people love a trainwreck!
Anybody know off the top of their heads who the oldest person to ever be elected POTUS was?
Just wondering what the public perception of 'too old' is.
The left didn't think that Ronald Reagan was a "serious" candidate either ; )
BTW Bart:
Don't forget to mention her nearly ONE MILLION Facebook fans!
http://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin
@Mr. Universe
Reagan, by at least a year or two. Both the oldest when first elected (I think he was about a week short of 70 for the innaguration in 1981) and the oldest standing President. Yeah, here it is. (( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_age ))
Of course he did underline the health issue as it is almost certain that at least the later parts of his 2nd term were served as he was starting to suffer from Alzhiemers.
But I think that the right person could top it, if they hadn't let their age show as cluelessness. Healthwise age 65 isn't today what it was when Taylor was elected. :)
Mr. Universe, Reagan was 69 when first sworn in in 1981.
McCain, if he had won, would have been the oldest POTUS.
@Bradford,
When has Petraeus suggested that he is a Republican (not saying that he hasn't but I haven't heard anything like that)?
And if Afghanistan becomes (more of) a quagmire, I'm not sure that the chief proponent of the Iraq surge would become a credible voice.
And if there is a terrorist attack, who knows? A few years back we had a draft dodger President who was unable to stop the largest ever terrorist attack on American soil, refused to fight an actual war against terrorists, and yet defeated a decorated veteran who supported fighting terrorists.
Just saying military credentials aren't always a golden ticket.
Something I've learned through the years - most people assume that most other people are pretty much like them.
The wakko far right is mostly motivated by fear. Therefore, they assume nearly everyone else also is.
This is the reason BdP thinks others are "afraid" of Palin - because fear is BdP's major motivation, and he can't imagine others being moved by some other motive.
This is also the reason the wakko right uses words like "socialist" - it's a scary word, and they assume the use of a scary word will automatically make people fear the person whom the word is applied to. And they truly cannot understand why this isn't working - why screaming "Socialist!" at the top of their lungs doesn't drive America into fits of terror at the Obama administration.
Bush, for example, governed through use of fear. After 9/11, his administration was all about trying to keep us all afraid, trying desperately to maintain a level of unreasoning terror so we'd let him and Halliburton do whatever they wanted. It worked for a while. But then we started to catch on to the fact that the real terrorist - the one who was actually using terror as a means of social control - was Bush himself (okay, Cheney).
This fear motivation is what makes Patraeus an attractive candidate for the GOP. They imagine the idea of a military man in the White House would make them feel safer.
Palin's disciples recognize that she feels the same fear they do, and they want someone representing them who understands and shares in their fear., and who has the same simplistic and unexamined black/white view of the world. A Palin / Patraeus ticket would be pretty attractive to these people.
Reagan was also reelected at 73 (older than Dole, McCain, or any other major-party nominee in history), and served nearly until his 78th birthday.
5 years later he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease, which is usually diagnosed after several years of having the condition.
Toward the end of his second term, he said he couldn't remember ordering arms sales to a US enemy to fund arms purchases for another US enemy.
Not that senior citizens cannot be effective Presidents (Jackson, Truman, and Eisenhower were also quite old while in office), but health risks increase rapidly after 70 or so.
How did this thread go off onto the oldest Presidents?! Sarah Palin is only 45.
Patraeus is a registered repub:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-plank/petraeus-republican#
Getting back to the TOPIC, I have to disagree with Tom and agree with Nate -- if she wants the GOP nomination, Palin will get it -- after that, all bets (pun intended) are off!!!
Blogger Bradford said...
"Patraeus is a registered repub..."
Right on, thanks. Hmm I wonder how a Rockefeller Republican would fly in today's party? Even if he was a general?
Petraeus could be another Eisenhower, but if he runs I'm guessing he's more of a Wesley Clark.
Jake said...
How did this thread go off onto the oldest Presidents?! Sarah Palin is only 45.
At least it's still talking about Presidents. :) I believe that we got there talking about wildcard candidates, which is actually on topic! Why? Because it's trying to get a fix on what the field would be like for the second bet, whether or not Palin wins.
P.S. Ron Paul is too old. By a lot. Plus even if he did manage to convince a significant number of the GOP rank-and-file to follow him in what would be a mindblowingly different direction from where the party has been going in most people's living memory, wouldn't possibly survive the cluster of metaphorical knives in his back.
P.S. Bart, Sarah Palin is so ill equiped for the job of back-up POTUS that the idea of her as VP scared shitless a solid half of the GOP. It isn't Sarah that is scary, it's her cluelessness that is.
The fact that all three incumbents were beaten relatively recently shows that Tom is missing the boat on that point -- since the television age / 24 hour news cycle, it is much easier to take the incumbent down -- remember that Palin is the ultimate ROGUE elephant ; )
Wesley clark is about where alot of the country is, if he could survive the nutball Repub primaries that kind of fiscal conservative and social moderate could win the general.
Thank God that Wesley Clark could not survive the nutball Repub primaries.
Since we are posting about "wildcard" candidates then, Rosie O'Donnell should be considered. Of course, she and spouse Kelli Carpenter have announced that they "are working through their issues" and "nothing else will be said" about rumors the couple is splitting, according to O'Donnell's publicist. So, I think that Gov. Palin has just a little better chance of becoming President than Rosie ; )
Online buzz about the Carpenter-O'Donnell marriage grew louder this week after O'Donnell did not give a clear cut denial in a USA Today interview on Tuesday.
The former talk show host's publicist echoed her non-denial in a statement to CNN Wednesday. "They are a family and will remain a family forever and are working through their issues," publicist Cindi Berger said in an e-mailed response. "Nothing else will be said."
O'Donnell and Carpenter were married in a private ceremony in San Francisco, California, Mayor Gavin Newsom's office in February 2004. The city of San Francisco issued the couple a marriage license two weeks after Newsom said his mayoral responsibility not to discriminate trumped a state law banning such marriages.
O'Donnell said on her wedding day that she was inspired to make her longtime relationship with Carpenter official by "vile and vicious and hateful comments" made by President George W. Bush that week. Then-President Bush announced that week that he would seek a Constitutional amendment to mandate that same-sex couples not be allowed to marry.
Couldn't have happened to more deserving couple ; )
Bradford, you are refering to the same Wesley Clark that has run for the Democratic nomination?
Yes Dwight, I am. Moderates are moderates, and they used to have some of those in both parties - of course, the Repubs shot all theirs.
Bart DePalma said...
52 threads about Sarah on this blog,
73 comments in less than 5 hours so far on this 52d thread.
16,700,000 hits on google.
Over 3000 current stories on Google news.
~~~~~~~~~~
BDP, get w/the program ie Big Picture! er ad revenue. What sells!
btw, Limbo's thread created more interest, just sayin' ~ palin/Limbo 2012 ;)
palin = John and Kate + (8), she's newsworthy, because she is such a buffoon! Americans loves a train wreck !!!
re: Petraeus, pretty sure most high ranking officers are registered independents and in fact, don't vote, as this may 'cause a conflict of interest and why would Petraeus want to end a distinguished career w/having anything to do w/the party of No! let alone losing to Obama in 2012.
and technically Ford was not an incumbent, never having been elected pres or v-p ie he was appointed much like dubya ...
yea, Americans love a train wreck ie ms. mooseburger, Michael Jackson, Limbo, John and Kate, Britney, Lindsay, Paris ...
Whereas the Rep party is also a train wreck, there are exceptions lol
take care
p.s. admit it BDP, when Sarah winked at you like Rich I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it. Lowry, you sat up a little straighter! lol
'nuf said!
Ron Paul may be far too old to be a dark horse but he could always give his blessing to his son or some other would-be counter-establishment candidate. But with Huckabee and Romney and Gingrich already taking all the air out of the room, there's barely enough left for Pawlenty at this point. There's only enough air tim eon FauxNews for one conservative outsider beyond this main bunch and Palin would have to actually pay for it herself against the GOP and Obama. I think it's far more likley for her to annoint her favourite from the big guys and wait it out until 2016 when the Dems are likely to nominate a woman of some kind. There's no other conservative women in America and Palin could walk to the nomination then. It's really the only reason McCain even picked her in the first place - as Hillary insurance.
-Jeff
And yes Virginia, it is noteworthy a thread re: Afghanistan, where American soldiers are dying for our country, gets (20) posts and a thread about racist Limbaugh gets (500).
Noteworthy, but sad! :(
What I'm thinking is that Palin won't run for president.
But, after Glenn Beck plants the seed of division with the far-right die hards to make their own party based on "Solid, god-fearing, god-loving, conservative ideals", Palin will step up as the spokeswoman, mouthpiece, primary campaigner.
She can still go on TV, has far less responsibility than an elected official, will be able to hide behind the siege mentality of her supporters, and get a bigger voice.
It's practically a gold mine for her. Speaking tours, fundraising, no accountability to the public, only has to talk to media outlets she likes, and she doesn't have to actually DO any research to make inflammatory statements.
She's very greedy, and where better to take advantage of BDP's pocketbook than as the head of a political party/movement based on emotional manipulation of the close-minded?
Yes Dwight, I am. Moderates are moderates, and they used to have some of those in both parties - of course, the Repubs shot all theirs.
Isn't this the whole point, though? Sure, Wesley Clark could have been a good President from either party - I'm actually a big Clark fan, I volunteered for his campaign in 2004 and still have a "Clark '04" button on my laptop case. But the Republicans aren't going to let someone openly pro-choice run for President, and certainly not someone who's said "If you want guns, join the Army."
Not to mention that Clark only managed to get where he did because the Clintons were backing him. Out of everyone who ran for office in 2004 (or 2008 for that matter), Clark struck me as by far the most "outsider" candidate - he was perhaps the exact opposite of a slick, soundbite-oriented candidate.
Which, of course, is why he lost. :P (Although he did pretty respectably given the late entry and inexperience. Actually won the Oklahoma primary.)
I have been saying for months she will run and win. Why? She is the epitome of the Republican party now and the other candidates don't seem like they have it.
Remember that Trudy Giuliani was supposed to stomp everyone and look where he ended up.
Tom, you think she's predictable. What the hell has she done that is predictable?
palin would make the perfect party of No! sacrificial lamb in 2012.
just sayin'
but she won't run and if she did she'd quit halfway into the process! ;)
Too funny, train wrecks Vitter, Sanford, Ensign et al won't quit and ms. mooseburger, who got her feelings hurt, and can't stand the heat/scrutiny quit ...
Again, how did the Dems get sooo damn lucky!
Jacob said...
Petraeus could be another Eisenhower, but if he runs I'm guessing he's more of a Wesley Clark.
Most certainly not in the area of foreign policy.
Wesley Clark's 2007 statement at WesPac concerning General David Petreaus' Surge plan that won the Iraq War:
What the surge would do, however, is put more American troops in harm's way, further undercut US forces' morale, and risk further alienation of elements of the Iraqi populace. American casualties would probably rise, at least temporarily, as more troops are on the streets; we saw this when the brigade from Alaska was extended and sent into Baghdad last summer. And even if the increased troop presence initially intimidates or frustrates the contending militias, it won't be long before they find ways to work around the obstacles to movement and neighbourhood searches, if they are still intent on pursuing the conflict. All of this is not much of an endorsement for a troop surge that will impose real pain on the already overstretched US forces.
In November 2008, Wesley Clark petulantly refused to acknowledge that he was wrong, asserting:
CNSNews.com: “Do you think the reports that have come out, saying the surge of troops strategy was successful, were correct? Do you agree that overall it was a successful strategy?”
Gen. Wesley Clark: “Well, successful in what respect?”
CNSNews.com: “With respect that the violence has gone down.”
Gen. Wesley Clark: “There were other factors that enabled the appearance of this to succeed. From Americans’ standpoint, all we saw were the troops going in, but lots of other things were happening in the region. I don’t want to take anything away from the troops, but I do want to point out that what we’ve said all along has been that in order to succeed in Iraq you must have diplomatic, political, and economic strategies that converge and come together. We haven’t had successful strategies in that area. The troop piece of it is part of it, but you cannot win this war with the military. You cannot win it by killing people, and you cannot win it even by guaranteeing security.”
There are two kinds of officers in the Army - warriors and careerist bureaucrats. Petreus is the former and Clark is the latter.
I have no idea what Petreus' views on domestic policy might be. I doubt the general has had any real time to think about them given that he has been rather busy developing the military's counter insurgency strategy, winning the Iraq War and attempting to get the troops needed to win the Afghanistan War.
Forget Palin, you're analysis of Mittens as a latecomer to social conservatism is 180 degrees off. He has always been a hardcore social conservative, he just managed to hide I well while running for office in MA.
"Surge plan that won the Iraq War"
We won??
You're making the mistake of assuming that Palin makes rational decisions or follows rational advice. She could still run despite everything you've said.
That fact that Romney felt it was something to HIDE then is what gives us "true conservatives" pause.
@Robert
We won??
Yeah, we won sometime back in 2003 when President Shrub declared "Mission Accomplished" and "Major combat operations have ceased." Don't you remember?
Okay, so over 95% of American casualties have happened since, but that's, uhm, because we've been fighting the peace.
Jack:
If Palin runs AND WINS, would that have then qualified her decision as "rational" in your opinion?
BDP, the "surge" was effective because the U.S. govt./military bribed the Iraqi tribal war lords to stop fighting. Plus they just got tired of killing each other after (4) years!
This is the reality of what happened, as you well know.
take care
p.s. Generals make terrible presidential candidates, Eisenhower being the (1) exception, as he wasn't nominated as much as elevated ...
and yes, as Robert says, if "we" won the Iraq war, why are we still there? As most military historical analysts say, we will know in 30/40 years if cheney/bush's fiasco has borne any fruit!
ciao
shrinkers and Robert:
"The surge reduced the violence more than anyone expected, and our troops are due most of the credit."
-- Barack HUSSEIN Obama, Jr.
shiloh:
Generals make terrible Presidents (except for Washington, right? ; )
@Jake
That's not a "win". When treating cancers, doctors use many treatments to reduce the size of tumors, but a reduced tumor is still a tumor. Reduced violence is not no violence, nor is it an ended (forget won) war. Pulling out is not indicative of a win.
So I say again. We won??
Jake said...
shrinkers and Robert:
"The surge reduced the violence more than anyone expected, and our troops are due most of the credit."
~~~~~~~~~~
Obama, being politically expedient, and running for president, could not say the Iraqi tribal war lords were paid off to stop the fighting, even though everyone knew it was the truth.
and said generals make terrible candidates, not presidents.
attention to detail, eh ;)
take care
Yes.
Winning in Germany did not mean the end of all violence in Germany (didn't even prevent the Berlin Wall and Cold War). There's more "violence" in Chicago today than in Baghdad.
shiloh:
I never said you said that Generals make terrible Presidents (bring on Gen. Betray-us ; )
The reduction of violence in Germany is not what signaled the end of the war in Europe. In fact, what signaled the end of the war was surrender of the opposing forces. From wikipedia regarding VE Day: "Victory in Europe Day (V-E Day or VE Day) was on 8 May 1945, the date when the World War II Allies formally accepted the unconditional surrender of the armed forces of Nazi Germany and the end of Adolf Hitler's Third Reich."
Did we get some formal surrendering of hostilities that I missed?
No, but considering that this war is against terrorists, there will not be some formal surrendering of hostilities on board a ship ; )
Then we clearly haven't won anything. Thanks for confirming what we already knew.
Wesley Clark in November 2008 was running interference for Obama who needed someone with military cred to carry his water, you can throw that away.
Jake said...
Yes.
Winning in Germany did not mean the end of all violence in Germany (didn't even prevent the Berlin Wall and Cold War). There's more "violence" in Chicago today than in Baghdad.
~~~~~~~~~~
Ah yes, the comparing the Iraq war to WWII red herring, eh.
your faux analogies are quite lacking, eh as they discuss the ending and not the why's and wherefore's of why the wars were started.
Again, just like the Vietnam fiasco will always be a 100% Dem war, so will cheney/bush's on going Iraq war fiasco always be 100% Rep war.
Know it, say it, live it, believe it!
ciao
p.s. not sure if you are being facetious/playing devil's advocate or whatever ...
ciao
Robert:
You and I will have to agree to disagree then whether, as "a testimony to the troops that were sent and General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker" have won anything or not.
Unfortunately, Sarah Palin’s book is not making money the way it was supposed to. Walmart declared Book War on Amazon just when Sarah should have been racking up the royalties for Christmas sales of her book.
Originally priced at ~$29, it's now selling for ~$9 (less than a paperback). The $9 price is retroactive to cover all pre-orders.
I don’t claim any first-hand knowledge of Sarah’s book contract, but I believe it’s typical for contracts to spell out a royalties cut-off sale price so publishers aren’t on the hook for royalties after a book hits the bargain bin.
Poor Sarah! She’s unemployed, Todd’s unemployed … and now, no book royalties! Hopefully the Sea for Pee will ratchet up their donations. Thank god Levi has his modeling to fall back on.
“It is as throughout all Alaska that big wild good life teeming along the road that is north to the future.” Also. too.
DermottTrellis:
Gov. Palin gets the same amount whether the book sells for $29 or $9. It's certainly NOT her fault that Wal*Mart cut the price.
Robert:
But, again, just to quote YOUR guy:
"I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody has anticipated, by the way, including President Bush and the other supporters. It has gone very well partly because of the Anbar situation ... what I’ve said is it succeeded beyond our wildest dreams."
"My guy"? Whatever the hell that means, I sure never claimed a horse in this race.
I'm not arguing that the surge was ineffective at reducing violence, although I do think it's questionable for reasons pointed out by Shiloh.
I'm arguing, instead, that we haven't won the war in Iraq. Violence not ended just down (and no guarantee that it couldn't pick up again), surrender not secured, and I don't think we even got any kind of silly replay of the mission accomplished fiasco to suggest that the war is even over. I can't figure how it is that we've scored a win?
A $7 million book advance is hardly considered "typical" in the publishing world ; )
http://wonkette.com/404426/sarah-palins-book-advance-may-dwarf-even-nate-silvers
Robert said...
Did we get some formal surrendering of hostilities that I missed?
Given the piss poor or non-existent reporting from reporters in the Green Zone, your ignorance is unsurprising. Here is the basic history.
By 2006, al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) had expanded to a militia of several thousand, led by foreign "Emirs" and manned by a mixture of Iraqi Sunni and foreign Arabs. AQI launched a Tet-like terror bombing campaign attempting to get the Sunni and Shia to enter into a civil war and influence our voters to elect a Congress which would pull out of Iraq. They almost succeeded.
AQI made a major strategic error, though. They went to war with the local Sunni tribes who would not submit themselves to AQI theocratic rule. It is never a good idea for a guerilla force to wage war on the people it depends upon to support them.
AQI did get their desired change change in Congress in the November 2006 elections. However, instead of treating the 2006 reverses as an excuse to surrender in Ira as demanded by the new Congress, Bush decided to back Petreus's Surge plan and go for the victory. This was probably the gutsiest decision by a President under fire over the past generation.
Petreus's plan was to enter into an alliance with the Sunni tribes where the US would provide security against al Qaeda and then arm and train local Sunni security for joint operations to clear the Sunni Triangle of AQI. Simultaneously, the US Army would check the Shia Mahdi Army.
The plan worked better than even Petreaus had hoped. The Sunni stopped their rebellion and joined the US forces to hunt down their AQI persecutors with a vengeance. AQI had been largely destroyed by the beginning of 2008 and the violence collapsed.
The US military compelled the Mahdi Army to agree to a ceasefire, but it was the US trained Iraqi Army that cleared the Shia militias out of Basra, the holy cities and then Baghdad in 2008 in a rather impressive display of military prowess. The Iraq War was then won.
Don't worry, DermottTrellis, every single cent from her book will be accounted for in March, as required under Alaska law, when her annual financial disclosures are reported.
Bart DePalma:
It's not "official" until Robert sees bin Laden sign a piece of paper on board the U.S.S. Missouri ; )
Bottom line, "we" can't still be arguing cheney/bush's Iraq war fiasco as dubya stated, May 2003, mission accomplished!
and Jake, You're either w/us or against us ~ stay the course ...
and never, and I do mean never misunderestimate your guy, bush!
take care
Bart DePalma said...
yada, yada, yada 2006 ?!?
~~~~~~~~~~
2006 lol, dubya declared mission accomplished May, 2003.
Get w/the program Bart!
shiloh:
See ya!
"It's not "official" until Robert sees bin Laden sign a piece of paper on board the U.S.S. Missouri ; )"
Jake, you're a moron. Seriously. I generally question BdP's views, but that was certainly a more convincing argument for the war having been won than "less violence". I can't say I could verify everything Bart said, but if factual, it certainly sounds like a qualified win.
My only question would be why that's not been bigger news? If the answer is "liberal press won't cover it", I don't buy it.
Bart DePalma:
They routinely confuse the U.S.S. Missouri (BB-63) for the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72), whose mission WAS accomplished. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
btw, al Qaeda was never in Iraq until cheney/bush attacked Iraq!
facts are stubborn things ...
FACTS: al Qaeda #2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998. More disturbing, there is "irrefutable evidence" that the Iraqi regime paid Zawahiri $300,000 in 1998, around the time his Islamic Jihad was merging with al Qaeda.
Jake, you're still reading my posts, eh. ;)
btw, please provide source material proving al Qaeda troops were in Iraq prior to cheney/bush invading.
and speaking of indisputable facts!
Rummy shaking hands w/Saddam Hussein, December 20, 1983.
See ya!
shiloh:
I'm reading, even though you've said (repeatedly) that you were leaving -- of course, Bush/Cheney went on the offense inviting any and all al Qaeda to come to Iraq and meet Allah -- but you never said "troops" so #2 in charge of al Qaeda is going to have to do (I don't have access to classified information, but I am aware of the rumors that al Qaeda trained in Iraq ; )
FWIW (not confirmed "facts"):
Zawahri Says Libya Killed Man Who Linked Iraq, Qaeda". New York Times. 2009-10-04.
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5930MU20091004
Again, read Thomas E. Ricks book, "Fiasco" and get back to me ...
and never said I was leaving, ciao is one of my many 'terms of endearment' for winger trolls like yourself.
take care
p.s. still waiting for verifiable source material proving al Qaeda troops were in Iraq prior to cheney/bush invading.
See ya!
Talking about opportunity costs, talking about odds... you are making the same mistake people always seem to make when trying to predict Sarah Palin's behavior: assuming she is rational! With most people, rationality is a reasonable assumption, but Sarah Palin is an exception. SHE IS NOT RATIONAL. She is impulsive, believes that God's will trumps things like odds and has a poorly developed sense of where reality ends and fantasy begins. NEVER assume that she will behave rationally.
Oh, I see -- you are not using words like "ciao" and "facts" as they are commonly accepted, but rather as special definitions that just you know about -- thanks for the warning.
Had you said "al Qaeda troops" maybe I would be inclined to accept your challenge. Instead, given your 6:16 PM post, I simply had to prove that even ONE al Qaeda member was in Iraq before March 2003. You don't get to move the goalposts now.
Ciao!
We've drifted from a conversation about Palin. Let me see if I can bring it back.
There were no WMD's in Iraq. There was no connection between Iraq and 9/22. These were the excuses that were used to get us into the war, and they were lies. These lies were told in an effort to make us scared, so that the Bush administration had an excuse to go to war.
The whackhead right still uses these fear tactics - and Palin (see, I said I'd bring it back to her) is an example of the sort of politician who uses such techniques. There still is a contingent of Americans who respond well to these tactics, people who apparently enjoy being afraid and being led about by their fear. Palin could well play into that.
I don't doubt she'll get into the primaries, and she might even win a couple of them - because fear is a great motivator, and it could bring out a lot of voters in those partisan contests. But unless the economy really tanks bad, it won't be enough to go uphill against a popular incumbent president.
By the way, people have mentioned third parties and their effect on presidential elections. Let me add that Nader took a number of states away from Gore (any one of which would have won him the 2000 election).
There was no connection between Iraq and 9/22.
There wasn't even a connection with 9/11.
Damn typos.
Palin quotes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsU26FNC0sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA15XU23kEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAuRgxFfb3o&feature=related
@shrinkers
"Let me add that Nader took a number of states away from Gore (any one of which would have won him the 2000 election)."
If Gore had run a better campaign, Nader would have been irrelevant. Suggesting that Nader is even partly responsible for Gore's loss ignores all the damage Gore did to his own campaign all by himself. Rewriting history to pretend that Gore couldn't have won the election by running a better campaign is a pathetic excuse.
Gore helped foster the situation that allowed for the creation of the internet, just like he helped foster the situation that allowed for his loss. If he had let Clinton campaign for him, neither Florida nor Nader would have been significant enough to matter.
If you look at Sarah Palin's history, she has demonstrated a huge dislike of working pretty much quiting every job she has had halfway through her obligations. The Presidency isn't something you can quit when it gets to hard and while I don't credit her with much brainpower she probably at least knows that.
Also, I imagine, like most of us, once you get a taste for getting paid millions to have someone ghost write your story, get thousands to go to speaking engagements and have thousands fawn over you its not something would want to leave anytime soon. Essentially a run for the Presidency would be a pay and attention cut. She loves both and really no reason to give it up beyond a desire for the history books which she really has demostrated any real interest in.
Palin uses religion for political gain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIOD5X68lIs
Palin on the Bush doctrine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oMaZhGvmkI
And finally, the Couric interview that started it all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxAO7cH-xrE
I SURE HOPE SHE RUNS!!!!!!
@Robert
If Gore had run a better campaign, Nader would have been irrelevant.
Oh, I agree that Gore could have run a better campaign, and that his public split with Clinton hurt him. My point was that even given that, if Nader hadn't been in the mix, Gore would have won hands down.
Moving the goal posts ~ accepting the challenge lol one is doing more bobbing and weaving than palin tryng to remember what newspapers she's read and any Supreme Court decisions. ;)
hmm, if at first you don't succeed, deflect er try, try again er stay the course, then quit Jake, don't be a damn fool!
Re: mission accomplished! it has been confirmed it was a totally staged, political photo op, no surprise.
The Lincoln was on a 10-month deployment (which was the longest deployment of a carrier since the Vietnam War) and dubya's photo op extended the cruise. hmm, bush supporting the troops, eh.
The banner was prepared by the White House, not the ship's crew. Bush used an S-3 to land when he could have used an H-3.
Bush stated at the time that this was the end to major combat operations in Iraq. Oops!
In a less publicized incident, Rumsfeld also declared an end to major combat operations in Afghanistan on May 1, a few hours before President Bush's announcement. Again, Oops!
Yes Virginia, Abe was surely rolling over in his grave!
Anchors Aweigh!
@Bradford
I SURE HOPE SHE RUNS!!!!!!
If we're really lucky, Tina Fey will return to her true calling...
@TFLive
Essentially a run for the Presidency would be a pay and attention cut.
I think she could well imagine she could take a page out of Bush's book, and appoint someone (the V.P.) to actually do the work of the President, while she spends her term on vacation - in her case, it'd be in front of adoring fans.
Bush's cronies used his presidency as a way of making money (i.e., Cheney et al) - Bush himself was too dumb to do that, using it instead as a retirement hobby. I think Palin could see it as a money-making gig - or at least, a chance to buy new clothes every day.
And if she did get bored, she could always quit. Nixon did (I don't know if she's ever heard of Nixon, but surely someone on her staff has).
"My point was that even given that, if Nader hadn't been in the mix, Gore would have won hands down."
I guess. It bothers me how often that comment is made, because most of the people who say it, say it as though it's a relevant factor. There's probably thousands, if not millions or billions of events, that if they had played out slightly different, Gore would have had the advantage needed to win.
But that's the one that gets attention, as though we can let Gore off the hook for his own mistakes, cause really, it was Nader's fault, and he's just so easy to dislike. It's intellectual dishonesty without shame.
If the democrats and liberals had taken a different message from Gore's loss, namely, that Gore did a bad job, maybe they would have been more fired up for doing a good job in 2004, instead of taking until 2008. We need to focus on our failures, not sweep them under the rug.
Pretty difficult for me to imagine her not running for President in 2012. If she's not the favorite, I doubt that affects the calculus. Look at Ron Paul, Joe Biden, Bill Richardson, and so many others from the last election.
Further, she has little reason to sit the race out. She has no office, she has no commitments. She gains little by sitting out. I can agree with you that her true ambitions are to win in 2016. However, it is probably better for her to run 2012 to achieve these ambitions. Since she has not political office, if she is not visible in 2012, people may forget about her by 2016.
All that said, I doubt she wins the nomination.
Latest Washington Post "generic ballot" poll - 51% would vote Democratic, 39% would vote Republican.
@Jake
shiloh is a regular here and he always ends his posts with some salutation. He tends to speak in overused metaphors as well. Here's a typical shiloh post:
Ms Mooseburger keeps making noise like blah, blah, blah...
But, but, but Mittens is running a close second. ie: chasing her tail.
Yes Virginia, blah, blah, blah...
the Dems couldn't ask for a greater gift than than this re: Sarah Bailin' Palin
Read it, Live it, believe it!
take care
(apologies shiloh)
As for dragging the conversation off earlier regarding age of presidents, I was responding to somebody's assertions of alternates such as Ron Paul and Nader. I was musing what the public perception of presidential qualifications were and not necessarily commenting on Palin.
The only criteria that I know of is natural born citizen 35 or older. But I recall people insinuating that even Obama was too young and McCain was too old. Just wondering aloud.
Bart, who is dumber that a Palmetto, said...
16,700,000 hits on google.
Hmmm, I didn't know 'hits on google' meant much except popularity among some or all people.
"Jesus Christ" - about 44,200,000
Hitler - about 39,300,000
Stalin - about 14,300,000
'George Washington' - about 75,000,000
Looks like a LOT of people should be more scared of Jesus Christ, or Hitler, or George Washington, than Liberals need to be afraid of Sarah Palin according to 'Google hits'.
Oh, and because it will scare you empty of male bovine droppings, here's a couple of Google counts:
Obama - about 206,000,000
'Obama is a Muslim' - about 22,200,000
And a couple more:
'Fox News' - about 66,100,000
'Faux News' - about 7,490,000
What do you make of all those figures?
Mike in Maryland
Bart, who is dumber than a Palmetto, said...
They routinely confuse the U.S.S. Missouri (BB-63) for the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72), whose mission WAS accomplished. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Ending a lie with a quote from Jesus? Didn't Jesus tell us to never lie? Or was that God who stated that? I always get confused by who commanded what in the three-in-one monotheism (meaning one and only one) of Christianity.
Many of the sailors (at least those who were/are not brainwashed into Conservatard thinking) will tell you they KNEW the who, what, where, when and how of that banner.
The cheney/shrub official lie is that the banner was stating the mission of the U.S.S. Lincoln was completed and accomplished.
What the sailors of the U.S.S. Lincoln know and have told to people is that the sign was ORDERED to be made and hung by the White House. The EXACT wording was specified by the White House. The EXACT design was specified by the White House. The EXACT placement of the sign was specified by the White House.
What the sailors of the U.S.S. Lincoln know and have told to people is that the U.S.S. Lincoln would have arrived in San Diego several hours earlier than it did because it was held off the coast for several hours so that shrub could helicopter in, but then it was ordered to steam out to sea for several miles so that shrub could play pilot - it was too close to shore for the play pilot stunt to be done safely, so more time and expense was ordered for it to steam to a safe distance. And the U.S.S. Lincoln had to be steaming in order for the jet to land safely - steaming in the same direction as the jet that was landing, which was in a westerly direction.
What the sailors of the U.S.S. Lincoln know and have told to people is that the U.S.S. Lincoln THEN reversed course, back towards San Diego so that when shrub 'faced the cameras', the sun was shining in a specific direction to give the best camera shot available.
So, everything about the 'Mission Accomplished' sign was specified by the White House; the ship had to wait off-shore for several hours; the ship had to steam away from port, then catch a landing jet, then steam back towards port.
Sounds like a non-photo opportunity, serious event such as the JAPANESE surrender on the deck of the U.S.S. Missouri on September 2, 1945, doesn't it?
Mike in Maryland
Mea culpa.
That last quote I commented on was not by Bart, who is dumber than a Palmetto, but by Jake commenting back to Bart, who is dumber than a Palmetto.
Although one Conservatard is almost always interchangeable with another Conservatard, so I guess there was no harm, no foul.
Mike in Maryland
Mr. Universe said...
~~~~~~~~~~
Will freely admit, been enjoying the winger trolls wayyy too much since Nov. 2008.
and no apology needed lol as the truth shall set you free! ;)
btw, "turdblossom" has always been one of my favs as Rove's er BDP's et al permanent Rep majority didn't quite work out, go figure.
g'day
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect ... ~ Mark Twain
A question for Mr. Shaller:
What constitutes a Palin 'run for President'?
Declaring candidacy, but pulling out before any primaries (ala Birch Bayh, John Glenn, and others who announced, but later pulled out before any primaries), or actually going through at least one or more primaries?
Mike in Maryland
I'd love to enter into a bet with anyone who thinks nearly half the opposing party is comprised of lunatics. Alas, such people tend not to have any money.
I think Palin's "candidacy" will follow a trajectory that is a cross between Liddy Dole and Dan Quayle. Each candidate seemed theoretically promising, insofar as they were presumed to have "built-in" constituencies.
Alas, all they really had was a combination of ideological affinity and name recognition, along with the wishful thinking of operatives who felt the combination was somehow electable.
1. Washington and Eisenhower were fine Presidents (Washington was a GREAT one) but Grant was a disaster, in spite of having won the worst war in our history.
2. Obama ran for office in 2008 on a program of ending a war, in which thousands of American soldiers had died, as soon as practicable and on terms which constituted less than total victory. SO DID EISENHOWER, in 1952, about Korea. How did that wimp ever get elected? Must have been his star quality.
3. All of your guys who think Petraeus won the war with the surge should listen to what the man himself has said on several occasions since then, which is that the issue is still very much uncertain.
Nice backward induction. Good to see some support for basic game logic on this site.
There are still people who care what Palin does? Who knew?
Another recent development is the current fragmenting of the GOP into two parties - as in NJ and NY-23. I see these two forces coalescing into a major fight for the GOP nomination in 2012, with the pre-determined winner (Romney/Gingrich) being too "liberal" (read: "Mormon) to win over the supporters of the other camp (Huckabee/Palin) (actually a split among religious right-wingers whom are half Baptist and half Mormon). In a Panglossian scenario, there is no Obama-Clinton-like power-sharing deal between the two, especially given current lingering bitter feelings between them, that you get a shadow campaign by the loser against the winner which peels off half the conservative vote giving Obama a 55%-22%-22% win over both the conservative candidates. Alternatively, there could be a "draft Petraeus" movement as GOPers search for an alternative to their pre-ordained choice which could also peel off support into two schismatic camps which would result in the complete collapse of the GOp as a major political party.
What I mean by that is, neither political party can afford to simply "sit out" a presidential election. The down-ticket candidates entirely depend on the top of the ticket turning out the voters so that they have a chance in State Leg, House, Senate and Gov races in the same year. This is why the GOP party establishment always pre-determins their winners will be their most electable candidate. If the GOP were to nominate someone like Petraues, Palin or even Gingrich, they would get completely creamed down-ticket as well as losing the WH race. Then we'd have not only single-party rule for the foreseeable future, but a 2/3rds supermajority in both houses and enough State Leg majorities (38) to ratify Amendments which would not only permanently nullify filibusters in the Senate but also give Obama a line-item veto power for his second term. A lot could be won from the GOP making the mistake of allowing a Palin candidacy to add to the length, confusion and general chaos of what is shaping up to be a real fight for the soul and future of their party. Since the real powers that be cannot afford to have Palin express anything other than full support for whomever their numbers show is the most electable, they will move to block her internally, behind the scenes like in the early primaries as I described before.
-Jeff
The latest entry in the "We're not afraid of Sarah Palin" sweepstakes is the sophomoric ripoff of Palin's book by some of the children writing over at the Nation with a lookalike cover entitled "Going Rouge.
The authors pitch their ripoff:
Sarah Palin has many faces: hockey mom, fundamentalist Christian, sex symbol, Republican ideologue, fashion icon, “maverick” populist. But, above all, Palin has become one thing: an American obsession that just won’t go away. Edited by two senior editors at The Nation magazine, this sharp, smart, up-to-the-minute book examines Palin’s quirky origins in Wasilla, Alaska, her spectacular rise to the effective leadership of the Republican Party, and the nightmarish prospect of her continuing to dominate the nation’s political scene.
Naw, these folks aren't afraid of Sarahcuda at all.
Sarah Palin will run in 2012. She won't win. In fact, I predict she'll finish 3rd or 4th in primary state counts.
Bart DePalma said...
The latest entry in the "We're not afraid of Sarah Palin" sweepstakes is the sophomoric ripoff of Palin's book by some of the children writing over at the Nation with a lookalike cover entitled "Going Rouge.
Bart, Bart, Bart, get w/the program! 'The Nation' is just out to make a buck and have a little fun at ms. mosseburger's expense. :)
Ain't capitalism great!
Afraid lol if one believes "we" are afraid of palin you are truly delusional.
As Christian Finnegan said on 'Countdown' tonight, most palin supporters couldn't find a bookstore, let alone distinguish between the two books. :)
take care
btw BDP, are you a palin supporter?
"For starters, winning the White House against an incumbent is more difficult than in an open-seat year."
You think that's what she's thinking about for starters? She's more likely to ask a snake.
Seriously, I think she's angling to be picked up as the VP choice again, and she'd rather do that by raising cash and being important ... but she'll probably have to rebuild her brand by running for a little while. I think she'll be fine with that.
Seriously, I think she's angling to be picked up as the VP choice again,
How many one-time loser VPs have gotten a second VP nominee selection? Isn't being the weak link on the ticket kinda the kiss of death? As much as Palin "excited the base" she did present a serious liability even within registered GOP voters. Her Bush^2 persona, while it could play in some other time, doesn't seem to have much of a chance in 2012?
That is one hell of a lot of "rebuild" to do in 3 years. Especially given the very odd step of ditching the Gov job. I know VPs are typically given leeway for flakiness but....
OK, I looked and I don't see any repeats of losing VPs as a VP nominee. Only three as (FDR, Dole, and Mondale) reran at the top of the ticket.
Note, this is only examining Democratic and Republican tickets. Obviously only since the start of the 19th century.
The only two losing VP picks I can think of who were picked again are John Tyler in 1836 and 1840, and Thomas A. Hendricks in 1876 and 1884, but then 1876 wasn't so much a loss as a stolen election.
shiloh said...
btw BDP, are you a palin supporter?
Sarah is an awfully tempting choice to a libertarian conservative such as myself. She has all the right policy positions and has charisma to burn.
What gives me pause is Palin's relative lack of experience. 2009 has shown us that it is generally a bad idea to vote in inexperienced green horns to the Oval Office.
Sarah has another year to get up to speed on policy and assemble an experienced set of advisors outside whatever Alaska kitchen cabinet she may have. If she can do this, I may throw in and campaign for Sarah.
Palin and Obama (now that he is exposed) would give us a clear choice between real conservatism and real democratic socialism. No more pablum attempting to blur the differences. No more RINOs and DINOs.
At least that is my daydream.
If Sarah does not work out, Pawlenty looks pretty good. However, he is not nearly as much fun.
BDP, you and Sarah together, get out of town, the sky's the limit! :)
Actually, FWIW, PPP ~ Barack Obama still maintains leads over all of his likely Republican rivals, with Mike Huckabee the most competitive challenger (47-43), and Tim Pawlenty performing the weakest (50-30). Palins at 52-40, (40) being her (forever) high water mark imo.
w/palin being a quitter, the political ads pretty much write themselves, eh. Don't think Reps would be dumb enough to nominate her, but hey, McCain was stupid enough to pick her as v-p.
politically speaking, Nov. 2012 is an eternity ...
>> Sarah is an awfully tempting choice to a libertarian conservative such as myself.
Of course she is tempting to you. She is very adept at the vapid platitudes that play well to faux libertarians of convenience such as yourself.
Remember last year when Limbaugh kept saying McCain and Huckabee were unelectable ~ and who am I to disagree w/Rush. ;)
Libertarians are liberals who never read a history book.
Forgive me if someone already pointed this out, but you might be interested to search for "Palin" on Intrade. There have been markets there on both the proposition that Palin will announce a run and that she will win the nomination for some time now. The current prices imply probabilities of ~60% that she will announce a run and 23% that she'll become the nominee. This is not far from the odds you and Nate agreed to, so perhaps you did look there before the handshake.
There is a subtle difference between the propositions covered by those contracts and those you bet on. The Intrade contracts cash if Palin *announces* a run for President, regardless of what she does thereafter. I wouldn't misunderestimate how mavericky she might be as a "candidate". In a similar vein, winning the primary is neither necessary nor sufficient to satisfy the second contract; she has to become the nominee. Who's to say she couldn't get away with crashing the Republican Convention (armed, of course) and walk away with the nomination without ever declaring her candidacy at all?
Dr. StrangeCharm said...
~~~~~~~~~~
The Dems fall in love, the Reps fall in line ie they, as a rule, pick their victim fairly quickly. McCain, although coming in 5th in Iowa, won NH and then the powers that be started endorsing him which gave him a leg up in FL and when he won FL the entire Rep heirarchy came out and endorsed him minus cheney/bush, but who the hell wanted darth/dubya's endorsement then or any time in the future. ;)
Like 2008, it will be slim pickins for the party of No! re: qualified, non bat shit crazy candidates in 2012. Would bet on mittens as he came in second and he will have the money.
palin will be too busy going rouge and rogue and grifting to be bothered w/politics ...
Yea, the big question. Who will be the Reps sacrificial lamb in 2012.
I expect the Republican nominee in 2012 to be someone we aren't even considering right now. Someone's going to come out of nowhere similar to how Obama did. I have a feeling it's going to be Bobby Jindal.
A lot of people wrote him off because he gave one bad speech, but after 4 years of Obama, nobody's going to care about whether the candidate gives good speeches, because we'll have had enough of a guy who can give good speeches but can't deliver on his promises.
I think you're overthinking it. Palin is not very smart, and I don't think she'll put anywhere near this level of analysis into her decision over whether or not to run. Right now I'd expect her to run because of her prominence within the party, but if anything comes of that embezzlement scandal, she most definitely won't.
Bobby Jindal will still be under 40 in 2012, so he won't run, but may do so (even if only for the VP spot) in 2016. Since the realistic age limits on US presidents are actually "between 40 and 70" despite whatever the constitution says, people know the reality and don't tend to run if they have no chance of winning. Remember the $600million Obama spent on Election '08? There's another round of that coming in 2012. It'll take either Bush money or Rommney money or (more likely) both to even stay in the race with Obama. Jindal has 1% of the necessary amount. If there is to be a GOP dark horse in the next big race, it won't be he. Further, this whole discussion ignores the facts that the GOP primary system is largely winner-take-all which, if left unmodified over the next three years, makes any outside candidacy equally as unrealistic as a 39 yr-old president. These are both things which haven't occurred before, because there are extant systems in place which make them practically impossible. Even though IA is not a winner-take-all system, I can tell you that it essentially is at the local level, at least. This, even more than the IA Dem Caucus, weeds out the unelectables. Palin may well announce a candidacy on a whim, yes. She may even have a significant money supply to campaign on, yes. But the system will still be rigged in favour of the two main big guys. Since the GOP has no black candidate to run against Obama (other than the ever-nutty Keyes, whom is unelectable in the GOP), they can't afford to waste their one female candidate in 2012, especially when it's likely Dems will nominate a woman in 2016. Palin was just Hillary-insurance for McCain, to prevent him from losing by a huge margin with Obama getting 60% of the female vote with Hillary on his ticket. Now that his cat is out of the bag and we know Biden is the VP, there is no reason for Repubs to nominate a woman. If anything, promising Palin a cabinet post will do as much to counter what Hillary adds to Obama's ticket frm the female vote next time. As long as Obama's approval continues to have a 50% hard floor, there won't be any beating him, no matter how much money the richest Repub throws at the race anyway, so being a two-time loser would doom Palin. The GOP must save her for 2016 at all costs due to having no other women. Senators? Just the two from ME, too liberal for the nomination. House? Just 17 as of now, mostly Bachmann-like nutballs. Govs? Not from any state in play or of any importance. Maybe Hutchison, if she wins. (She would've been a much better choice for VP last yr, incidentally, but for the feud between her and McCain. But she'll be too old in 2016.)
-Jeff
I'd be willing to bet she doesn't run. She's content to make her millions and become the next Rush.
She won't run. Sarah has always run on the coattails of some idiot man who thinks she's "hot" and bankrolls her campaign. No one is stupid enough to fall for that any more and she doesn't have the ability to do it on her own. She can make a lot more money being a "reality"-type star and that's where she's headed. Why bother to run for office when you can make a million dollars on a book? She'll end up with a talk show or a radio show and mean nothing in 2012.
Keep in mind that a lot of first tier Democrats stayed out of the 1992 race. In early 1991, Bush 41 looked unbeatable. This allowed a young, relatively unknown Bill Clinton to win the nomination, and left a lot of Democrats kicking themselves.
With that as a history lesson, the GOP will not think of 2012 as a lost cause. Even if it looks like a tough race, to concede it is to doom a ton of your down ballot candidates. In Presidential politics, you run to win, period.
Having said all that, I too think that Palin will pass on running. Her numbers are ugly, and won't get better anytime soon. If she does a faceplant in the primaries, she loses a ton of her cache on the rubber chicken circuit. Financially, she is way better off being Newt Gingrich and Mario Cuomo, the perennial tease candidate.
I agree that Sarah Palin won't run for president. I further agree that she wields more power as a constant almost-candidate, a la Newt Gingrich. In addition, her resignation had three reasons: 1) the indictments, scandals, & annoyance of continuing as governor of Alaska; 2) the amount of cash to be gained doing the lecture, talk-show, insta-book thing; 3) the feeling that being governor for three more years (or even one) wouldn't help her presidential chances at all, while trying to spend a year in Iowa, flying to/fro Anchorage is well-nigh impossible.
Palin has decided to go for the gold. She will spend the next 25 years as a pundit & talking head. She will have a talk-radio show, a t.v.-show, a syndicated column. She will publish books & give speeches, and she will live the rest of her life highly over-paid, a brunette Ann Coulter.
I agree that incumbents usually win, but you should add one election to your recent list: 1968. Lyndon Johnson tried to run then but saw that his prospects weren't good. A more accurate number, then for recent history would be 7 of 11.
One last point about that: It is only recently that a candidate gets only one chance to run. Thomas Dewey, Adlai Stevenson, & Richard Nixon ran twice. If Al Gore had run in 2004, then Bush-Dick may not have won a second term. This notion of "lost once: you're history" will strengthen incumbancy, giving us, essentially, eight-year presidencies as no serious candidate will risk running against an incumbent.
"So a strategic politician seeking the Oval Office should..."
You lost me right there. I thought you were talking about Sarah Palin.
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