I made two predictions this summer that look like they're not going to turn out very well. One was saying that the unemployment rate wouldn't hit 10 percent (it hasn't yet, although it probably will) and the other was saying that the public option was "probably" dead.
That latter prediction, formally speaking, isn't wrong yet either. Although Harry Reid is endeavoring to insert a public option into the bill that the Senate will vote upon, that bill hasn't gone to the floor yet, nor has it been approved. Neither of these things are guaranteed: it looks like Reid still needs to round up a couple of Democratic votes to get to 60 on a motion to proceed with the bill, and that may not be easy (if Reid can't get them, you should expect him to pull the public option off the table, rather than losing face with a floor vote).
In addition, the public option that Reid hopes the Senate will vote upon is compromised in three distinct ways from the original vision of it. Firstly, states will have the right to "opt out" of it (not that big a deal, IMO). Secondly, it will be limited to negotiating its rates in the market, rather than charging Medicare rates (a very big deal). Thirdly, it will be open only to the relatively small handful of people who are eligible for the health insurance exchanges, rather than the whole country (ditto). The consensus -- and I agree with this -- is that Reid's version is still in its essence a "public option", but it's not the robust public option that progressives envisioned. For better or for worse, it really is a compromise, and a substantial compromise.
Nevertheless, we try to be accountable here, and it looks like this prediction will turn out to be wrong. So where did I -- and many other "pundits" -- miscalculate?
Last week, we discussed 10 ways in which the environment had become more favorable to the public option. But some of those -- like the favorable CBO score that the public option will get -- were foreseeable ahead of time. What, then, were the real surprises?
The first surprise is that Reid is showing some backbone. I don't think this move is quite as risky as it looks, because Reid has some wiggle room before he passes the point of no return. But Harry Reid does not generally have a reputation as a risk-taker, even in small doses. A nontrivial factor is that he's literally gone overnight from being a goat to a hero in the progressive blogger/activist community, something that could pay dividends when he's seeking cash and volunteers for what will be a very tough re-election campaign. Save perhaps for Alex Rodriguez, nobody has done more in the last month to resuscitate their image with their fan base.
The second surprise is that this happened without much explicit support from the White House.
The third surprise is the way that Democrats regrouped after the turmoil of August. The President's speech on September 9th was a major and -- in my opinion -- still somewhat underrated factor in this. But also: the tea party/town hall movement that dominated the headlines in August is at this stage somewhat immature, with a lot of sound and fury but not so much focus -- sort of where liberals were at in 2002/03 before the failures of the Bush administration became more manifest. Whereas liberal activists have been focused on a laser like the public option, conservative activists have been distracted by ACORN, Van Jones, the NFL's conspiracy against Rush Limbaugh, and who-knows-what. Usually it's liberals who have amorphous, omnibus critiques of the government, and conservatives who bear down on specific policies; the polarity seems somewhat to have reversed.
The fourth surprise, less important than the first three, is that the usually very footsure insurance lobby undermined its credibility by putting out the wrong study at the wrong time, giving a gift to Democrats by making it easier for centrist Senators to distance themselves from them.
The fifth surprise is that the usually very prepared Olympia Snowe didn't do her homework on triggers, failing to flesh out the proposal to the point where it was ready for a floor vote, much less had gained credibility with the Democratic caucus. If Snowe had done more legwork on the trigger -- at least theoretically, there are manifestations of it that ought to have been relatively acceptable to progressives -- then we'd almost certainly be talking about a "hard" trigger versus a "soft" trigger, instead of opt-ins versus opt-outs.
With all that said, again, it is not yet time for progressives to be breaking out the champagne. The momentum for the public option could unravel, and could conceivably even take the whole project of health care reform with it. And the public option, particularly in its compromised form, is less of a game-changer than either wing seems to think.
But none of this would have been possible without the yeoman effort of a relatively small number of bloggers and activists -- they know who they are -- who were tired of taking "no" for an answer. They wanted this fight because of the paradigm-shifting implications it could have for how business gets done in the Democratic Party. And, somewhat to my surprise, they're having it.
10.27.2009
On Being Wrong About the Public Option
by Nate Silver @ 6:24 AM...see also health care, liberals, progressives, reid
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Who knew Hary Reid had a spine? Go to Talkingpointsmemo for a great Schumer interview describing how it went down.
Even the Pres is on board, if they can do it. How does everything Obama does come up roses?
Sorry for the second comment, now lets go after the insurance companies anti-trust exemption and shred them down to size, just like the big banks.
WOOHOO! As we discussed here last week, the Teapartiers may be the best thing to happen to Dems as they will keep Repubs in the minority for years to come if they keep this up. Nothing like a good debate between between a moderate left position and a liberal position in Congress!
Hey Nate
I was wrong about a young, relatively inexperienced, bi-racial, African/American, Communist, Marxist, Islamo-Fascist, Socialist, wealth distributor, community organizer, Satan, The Anti-Christ, The Devil Incarnate, Arab, Osama Obama, Muslim who was born in Kenya and who wakes up every morning hating America! ever being elected president of the United States of America in my lifetime ...
Shit happens!
btw, Rahm Emanuel told Obama early on if he decides to go ahead w/health care reform this year be prepared for the party of No! and it's negative echo chamber fixednoise, winger radio, etc. and their sheep to declare the process dead in the water about 4/5 times before the bill passes. Such has been the history of health care reform the past 40/50 years.
Underestimate Barack Hussein Obama at one's own peril!
He was born under a lucky star. :)
Being elected was the hard part, everything else ain't nothin' but a thing. ;)
GO HARRY, GO! Make me proud to say that you're my Senator.
Nate wrote, "The second surprise is that this happened without much explicit support from the White House."
I think that's being too kind to the White House. Obama has been absolutely terrible on this whole thing. He could still turn it around by coming down hard on the side of Reid and Pelosi. Funny how few people say Obama needs to get a spine, though.
Reid just needs to play chicken a little bit. Once it becomes clear that he future of the Democratic caucus depends on passing a Public Option, there's no way anyone (save for maybe Lieberman) would dare vote with the Republicans on cloture.
It also puts a political risk on any conservative law makers who would dare to opt their states out.
Furthermore, Nate is acting as if what is passed will be the end of the road. Simply getting the public option on the books means that it can be tinkered with almost endlessly in the future a la Social Security.
Nate,
I was hoping against hope that you were wrong on both these predictions. Today, if I were to bet, against my heart I will bet that you would still be right on both. Why? Unemployment: we really are more on the way to jobless recovery. Too much bailout of the banks and not enough genuine saltwater Keynes.
Option: do not ignore Intrade. One of your reader said it is a lagging indicator. It is not. Being a US citizen I have never placed a bet on it but I have followed it for the last 3 years. The 2006 senate was a knife edge situation to say the least -- and it was wrong but it was also a quantum coherence like effect -- you should like it. IID assumption not valid -- correlation better than random. Happened in 1986 also . That time the trigger was Thomas confirmation, in 2006 -- the "Maccaca"
On intrade the odds for option went down yesterday. Below 15. Beware of the Senator from Connecticut bearing gifts.
Since Nate mentioned A-Rod (Go Yanks!) let's continue the sports analogy. What Obama and the Dems executed was the brilliant rope-a-dope strategy of Muhammad Ali. I believe they deliberately sat back during July and August and allowed all and sundry to take their best shot, from Betsy McCaughey Ross to Sarah Palin. After all, they, not the opposition, control the timing of the vote. By September, the opponents had shot their wad and had nothing new to offer. And all that shouting only moved the poll numbers from mildly for to about 48-52. Congress critters are willing to back something that is opposed 52/48, knowing that the numbers will likely swing more positive once its enacted. You have to get to 60/40 against before they will really worry.
As far as the substance of opt-out, I like it. This is a big country with a federal system and health coverage doesn't have to be identical everywhere. In Canada, each province runs their own system under broad federal guidline and there are differences between how each province manages things. I suspect that when all is said and done, few if any states will opt out, since residents of those states would be paying taxes, but foregoing benefits. Just like, despite all the screaming, even the red states took the stimulus money. If any Republican governor wants to run on opting out, the message should be, "Go ahead, make my day!"
@Paulv: Read the Intrade contact rules:
If a system is established that allows states to opt-in or opt-out of a government run health care plan the contract will not be expired at 100. (added 09/10/09).
That's why Intrade is so low. It seems likely that if a public option does pass, it will include an opt-out provision, as Nate also acknowledges. There's no disagreement on this point.
Chris Bowers @ OL was reporting last evening Harry Reid likely had the 60 votes for cloture. He felt Blanche Lincoln was the only Dem not committed-
http://www.openleft.com/diary/15694/reid-appears-to-have-60-for-cloture
I very much hope nothing goes wrong
at this stage. I think the moderate
Dems would not vote with the GOP filibuster but I could be wrong.
Regarding the point about the public option having to trade at market rates and not Medicare rates, if this version passes the Senate and a robust version passes the House, isn't there still a chance (possibly with some more liberal upswing) that in the inter-chamber negotiations for the final bill a more robust option could be squeezed out of the Senate?
No need for an accounting! We all know that 538 has long since become "sky is falling" central, but we still love you.
SarahLawrenceScott,
Thanks a lot for your explanation. I feel a lot better already!
It's beyond me how a democrat can fillibuster the HCR bill and stay in the party. No one is saying vote for the bill just bring it to the floor and then you can vote no.
The blue dogs know that if they fail on health care they are all dead ducks and the party would suffer in 2010.
When health care happens Obama can claim he has completed what Truman started, he should even have a Truman decendent at the signing, along with Kennedys widow!
What does the following mean?
"Thirdly, it will be open only to the relatively small handful of people who are eligible for the health insurance exchanges, rather than the whole country."
I couldn't find any discussion of restrictions on availability of the public option in the news articles.
I can't believe it, but it looks like Hangdog Harry has actually made a good move.
This puts the spotlight on the Blue Dogs...no backroom deals, no last minute footsy with the insurance industry...if they want to stop this, they'll have to do so openly by publicly standing with the Republicans.
And if the whole thing falls apart, Reid and others can point to this and say "see, I tried!".
Good or bad, the final tally seems to be coming soon.
"But none of this would have been possible without the yeoman effort of a relatively small number of bloggers and activists -- they know who they are -- who were tired of taking "no" for an answer. "
Wow, Nate, really? Hasn't Obama been pushing for the public option for months? How many dozens of events has there been where he advocated for it?
And hasn't OFA, at the urging of Obama and his administration, been knocking on doors and calling members of congress the entire time and pushing for the public option?
Then you have members of congress like Weiner and Schumer advocating consistently and almost daily for the public option and saying they believe it will be in the final bill.
And Pelosi and Dean have been doing the same, predicting a public option will be included by precisely the process that we are witnessing now.
Given the above, how can anyone say with a straight face the public option was dead? I'm baffled by this narrative. And I'm doubly baffled to hear you give credit to bloggers for bringing something back to life something that was clearly never dead in the first place.
The only battle that the loudest chicken little bloggers "won" was a battle with the administration that didn't exist anywhere except in their minds and on their blogs. They created a fictional fight with Obama and are now busy self-congratulating each other for winning it. Unreal.
Yeah, sorry Nate but I'm with Joseph. Maybe we are all just too used to a President that comes out and bellows something like "you are with us or against us", hamhanded driving a wedge on pretty much every issue, including internationally.
Has it been so long since this was standard operating procedure that people had forgotten?
I think that the "public option" as you describe it is, at best, "semi-public." I would think if any state will opt-out, mine (SC) would. Bad, bad, bad. And that thing about exchange eligibility--I don't even know what that is, but it sure sounds like a big limiting factor that would lock me out.
The democratic leaders of congress just need to get some balls and put every "progressive" option in the version that comes out of joint House/Senate committee. End of story then.
Nate:
We are talking about a 1500+ page secret bill, the contents of which we have to rely upon Cash n Carry Harry Reid, hardly the epitome of probity. The Dems pathologically lied about what was in the House bill until the Tea Party folks started reading the bill to them during the town hall meetings and then even the Dem press picked up on the discrepancies weeks later. I expect nothing less from Harry Reid.
Publish the damn bill so we can read it and intelligently debate it.
If the government is not using our money to subsidize its health insurance, looting the health care providers ala Medicare and Medicaid and/or imposing mandates on private insurance the government does not have to meet, then the government plan has no chance whatsoever to match, nevertheless beat, private health insurance rates. The Dems know this, so color me just a wee bit skeptical that their secret bill does not use one or more of the above predatory anti-competitive techniques to tilt the scales toward the government option.
I said at the beginning of the summer, and I believe this is the reason this will come to pass, that health reform is too important to the Democratic Party for it to fail. Health Insurance reform is indeed to big to fail.
I think with decent healthcare reform, the Democrats have a good chance to go on and do reasonably well in 2010. Without it, it will be a fairly bad year for Democrats, (Including Reid himself). I think that might be the reason for Reid's backbone.
What was as pleasing as Reid's announcement was the moderate Democrats lining up to make it clear that they would vote for cloture.
But it was also a case of terrible timing from the Tea Party brigade. That reeally galvanised the left into action, and really, but quietly, showed just how hateful and partisan the GOP were being. It allowed the Democrats to go forward irrespective of what the Republicans were saying.
Hopefully a victory on health insurance reform will further galvanise the Democratic party for the fights to come.
BDP, we have been debating the healthcare issue for months now, I think its time to let Congress do their job and pass a bill. Its time to trust the judgement of congressmen and women!
Paulv,
The problem with your statement on the Intrade prediction for the public option is that in the rules for that particular trade, it states that any form of compromise (i.e. the opt-out plan). So of course the value of that trade is way down. The only reason it would go up is if an absolutely uncompromising public option were to be included, which will not be the case.
markymark said...
BDP, we have been debating the healthcare issue for months now, I think its time to let Congress do their job and pass a bill. Its time to trust the judgement of congressmen and women!
In the USSR, the Politiboro routinely issued secret laws to the Supreme Soviet for rubber stamp approval. The loyal proletariat was instructed to trust the party in all things.
In America in 2009, you are telling us to trust the Dem congressional leadership to draft a secret bill and then issue it to the congressional rank and file to rubber stamp without reading it.
Like a good socialist, comrade?
Another reason we got the PO in the Senate bill is that the concepts of filibuster and cloture are undergoing a metamorphosis. With 60 dems the GOP lacks enough votes to filibuster on its own. They must not only hold their caucus together, they also have to pull at least one dem over to their side.
This puts a massive target on the back of any dem who votes with the gop to block a basic up or down vote on health care reform-the biggest liberal history-making legislation in decades. Its very hard to imagine a dem Senator bucking the party in this way at this time.
(Plus Snowe is not a guaranteed vote for filibuster which puts the gop at 39.)
This is not talked about a lot but I think this is a critical part of Reid's strategy.
I never understood why all the pundits seemed to believe that just because the Finance committee approved a certain type of bill, that was the one most likely to be passed. There were four other committees with four different versions of a reform bill. It was silly to believe that the Baucus bill was the end of the road.
I'm surprised you didn't cite the solid support for it in polls. Even during the dark days of August, it never really tanked in polls. And in the latest WaPo poll, it was extraordinarily high. I found this level of consistent support surprising, and it certainly had an effect on Reid, and perhaps Baucus and other moderates.
I bungled up a sentence before. It should read: "[...] it states that any form of compromise (i.e. the opt-out plan) doesn't count."
And why does the government need to be in the insurance business at all? Does anyone remember Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the distrotions it caused in the mortgage market? Does anyone care? What happens when this becomes the inevitable financial disaster?
This proposal is still camel's nose under tent with a transparent end game. The Senate will not be so easily fooled. Maybe it gets them a vote or two, but they're still far short.
No one has mentioned Lieberman yet. I think people count him among the 60 needed for cloture. But there's no guarrantee he will vote for it. After all, all Joe cares about is Joe and if voting for cloture nets him a few extra bucks from the health care lobby, then we know where he will go.
Jon -- the exchanges, of which a public option will (hopefully) be a part, are only available to those who do not get insurance from their employer (there will be standards about what minimum insurance is by an employer), are self-employed, run a small business, or have been laid off. Those who get good insurance from their employer cannot buy from the exchange.
That said, Nate, nothing more than this setup has been on the table for months -- from basically the beginning, because business lobbies are so concerned about people fleeing their insurance pools for the exchanges.
Umm BDP. They could put the bill out there for a week and you'd find something else to complain about.
Why bother trying to placate the one which cannot be placated?
You ever hear of the story cry wolf? Of course you have.
At a certain point, people just tune you out.
People are starting to tune the dissenters out because it's becoming apparent they will complain about ANYTHING.
Agreed that the right-wing has basically proven, through August and beyond, their inability to negotiate in good faith. So it became a Dem-only bill. The GOP believed that they were more powerful than they are, that the "silent majority" would carry them to victory, and now they're being shut out of the final results.
Well Nate, you already pointed out that this kind of public option is not the "liberal" version of a public option. And when you made that prediction you probably had that in mind, not this kind of compromise (you thought that the trigger would be the compromise, but then opt-out/in came out of nothing).
By the way, it was good that Obama didn't throw himself behind the public option as much as many would have liked to see. It transformed the public option from an Obama-effort into a liberal effort. The community organizer once again managed to activate his constituents.
liberal_defender_of_freedom said...
Umm BDP. They could put the bill out there for a week and you'd find something else to complain about.
In short, shut up and do not question the Party.
Your comment simply highlights the contradiction in terms that is liberal and defender of freedom.
@cms
Wow. What a positively awful idea for it to be only available to people in the individual market.
Suppose I'm covered by the public plan and then get a job at a big company. I am forced by the government to lose my current health insurance and get different insurance!
Then, suppose I lose my job or want to quit and start a company or move to another company. Again, I lose my coverage and have to actively change my insurance again.
What if there's a lapse in my coverage because I fail to go to the extreme trouble of making sure that my transition to my new insurance provider is seamless, and I break my ankle playing basketball?
I thought one of the whole points of having a national public plan was to transition to a situation in which the current catastrophic experiment with employer-based coverage could be phased out.
It was much more than a small group of bloggers. Health Care for American Now and the AFL-CIO have been pushing on this hard, as have Move On and others. The combination of an organized based and broad activism helped keep the public option going even as many pundits were declaring its defeat.
The other major factor was the continued high favorability in the polls. The ABC-Washington Post poll that showed a public option was more popular than gaining any Republican support felt like a turning point.
Joseph and other commentators have already said what I think is the case: the WH has been pushing as openly as they dared for the PO without drawing lines in the sand. With the Senate held hostage by the Finance Committee there was nothing to be gained from the WH to insist on a PO at that point, it would simply look like it had been rejected by the Senate and that the President had been rebuked. By not drawing a line in the sand he didn't lose any capital when the FC, very predictably, did not include a PO.
That is just one example of why the WH appeared to "keep its powder dry". To see an excellent gaming of what the WH strategy was, since they had to plan this out from January and are not the type to enter the game without a gameplan, please visit Booman's analysis of where and when the WH thought it would be picking its battles and making public stands. Not only was the President a loud advocate for the PO, despite what some might say, so were Dean, Harkin, Wyden etc etc. And polls supported them from January onward.
Now, a final criticism for you Nate is that you seemed to have fallen victim to one of two two different modes of thinking common to the circles you run in: 1)inside the beltway level of attention to naysayers of the President's agenda and its chances of getting through 2) fierce liberal bloggers who have constructed a theory (absurd in my view) of Obama as a corporate shill, Clinton-esque triangulator who was willing to get anything passed that he could call health care and declare victory.
That never seemed to be the case, from his pledge to Ted Kennedy during the primaries to his mother's death from cancer for lack of insurance, to his rather keen ear to what his supporters want... he has always looked to be more towards getting the MOST progressive health care reform bill possible. But the key word here was possible, and bloggers and activists certainly expanded the world of the possible beyond what even the WH thought they might achieve. So, yes; the strength of the Senate bill looks to be a surprise, but not one that was outside the realm of prediction.
Better luck next time, thanks for manning up to your bad call.
Oh, and that last (long) comment was Paul W., different from the other paul
No BDP. You misunderstand.
Your (as in conservative -aka tea-baggers) complaints fall on deaf ears because they are endless and many without merit.
Dissent is welcome. Endless complaining about made up controversy is tiresome, from both sides.
BDP, we have been debating the healthcare issue for months now, I think its time to let Congress do their job and pass a bill. Its time to trust the judgement of congressmen and women!
I fully agree with BDP on this. The only thing I've ever agreed with Reagan on is "trust, but verify". If the bill is so great (and I sure hope it is), then it should be able to stand some scrutiny.
This is the same reason open source software can be trusted more than closed source - anyone can go verify that it does what it's supposed to by reading it. This is the kind of transparency Obama promised us, and I don't think waiting another week so the public can get a look is going to cause significant harm.
On the other hand, given that there doesn't yet seem to be a single agreed upon bill, I don't know that it's yet time to share them. Once there's a bill to be voted on though, BDP is absolutely right that we deserve an opportunity for comment. Most government agencies are required by law to post rule changes publicly with a request for comment for about a week or so before implementing them, shouldn't we have similar expectations of congress?
BDP,
Most people are sheep to begin with, and sheep blindly follow whoever is leading them. Which is worse, being blindly led by the Democrats to health care reform, or being blindly led by the Republicans into two unwinnable wars and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression? Thanks for playing, but I'll take my chances with socialism after 8 years of theocratic, militaristic fascism.
@Bart: The "secret bill" that you're bitching about has been posted online by the Library of Congress for nearly a week. Enjoy your reading.
I'd rather avoid socialism and theocratic fascism by having more open government, but yeah. we really don't have a bill to look at yet.
However, no matter what the bill actually says, the tea party and their mouthpieces will take a small piece of it out of context in order to make the whole bill seem far more sinister. They will trumpet that out-of-context quote as if it were special knowledge that indicates the downfall of America. And it doesn't matter how many times the full text is cited to justify the quote, because that little snippet, found by paid political partisans and broadcasted to all true believers, is all they will accept as truth.
Really, most people who are upset about this actually don't have interest in reading the bill themselves, or even the ability to understand the whole mess of rules and laws being proposed. They'd just wait for one of their heroes to give them a soundbite to parrot, and get outraged over something that might not even exist ('Death Panels', for example).
I'm all for any moves to simplify legalese and create auto-bulletpoint software for legal documents that can be quickly and easily navigated in plain English. I want to understand what our government is doing, who is getting the sweet deals, who is stuffing in earmarks for how much, what contracts are being awarded. The only thing I don't want to be able to freely access is stuff directly related to national security.
However, I agree with Chris:
I don't recall anyone on BDP's side being interested in the contents of bills when the GOP was in charge.
wv:unmeta. The fourth wall is completely intact here.
Replace Bart's reference to the USSR with a reference to Iran's theocracy, and you've got yourself a more accurate comparison, although for the 2000-2006 period.
Must we continue the conservative=freedom farce? Yes, yes, we all understand that you guys are the defenders of economic deregulation, the freedom to be free from most lawsuits whether meritorious or not, the freedom from public education, the freedom from that extra 2% of taxes, the freedom to pollute the atmosphere that everyone partakes in, the freedom to let insurance company bureaucrats dictate your care or lack thereof for profit, and drop you when they feel able, and the freedom to feel the kindly embrace of unlimited police power.
If you truly believe in freedom, you need to expand the boundaries.
@Dave [W]:
You said: "That is just one example of why the WH appeared to "keep its powder dry"."
It didn't just appear to, it in actuality did keep his powder dry. And now, when we're down to crunch time, you can see why. Even the "supporting" of the desires of the lone Republican moderate, Senator Snowe, now looks so very smart. It means that he comes across as having reached out across the aisle until the last dog-tail, but reluctantly abandoned her when she refused to support this moderate program.
President Obama and his team are the epitomy of politically polished. And, as with the wreck of an economy he was saddled with, he's content to wait for the years to roll by to vindicate his every decision.
Which they will.
Well put, Drowzee.
Reading the comments by Joseph, shiloh, and others who have a grasp of politics and the strategies involved in getting health care reform through Congress and on the Presidents' desk is heartening.
It's nice to see others who understand the ebb-and-flow of these sorts of things. Hats off to you.
BDP said
'In the USSR, the Politiboro routinely issued secret laws to the Supreme Soviet for rubber stamp approval. The loyal proletariat was instructed to trust the party in all things.
In America in 2009, you are telling us to trust the Dem congressional leadership to draft a secret bill and then issue it to the congressional rank and file to rubber stamp without reading it.
Like a good socialist, comrade?'
-------------------------------
(Avoids snarky comments about the Bush/Republican administration stramrollering legislation through without giving Congress time to read the bill).
Thats not what I meant at all BDP. You said 'Publish the damn bill so we can read it and intelligently debate it.' WE have been debating this for months. Its Congress that need to debate it now. They need to use there judgement and intelligence to reach there own conclusions and get this done. I am not saying that Reid should be secretive, but I think the responsible thing the rest of us normal folks can do now is sit back and watch and wait. Congress has heard what WE have to say, now THEY have to get on and do their job.
The second surprise is that this happened without much explicit support from the White House.
The key word being explicit. We have no idea what the WH was doing behind the scenes. Back in early 2008 almost nobody knew of Obama exacting delegate-counting strategy either. He never shows his hand in public.
Drowzee said...
However, I agree with Chris: I don't recall anyone on BDP's side being interested in the contents of bills when the GOP was in charge.
The GOP never declined to publish bills so they would be unavailable to the Dems and the public. Indeed, the Dems were heavily involved in what I believe to be the worst of the Bush legislation - the Medicare drug entitlement and NCLB - and what many Dem voters believe is the worst - the AUMFs and the detainee legislation.
The GOP conservatives sure as hell paid attention to and ripped the Medicare drug entitlement and NCLB. I spent hours debating the AUMFs and the detainee legislation on blawgs law school profs long before this legislation was voted on.
To the extent that the GOP Cpngress did not read the spending bills, they paid the price in 2006 and 2008. The Dems do not want to pay the price in 2010 and 2012, thus the secrecy.
Two things:
1) The bill has been posted for some time now.
Of course, this won't be the bill that's voted for on the Senate floor because it hasn't been fully crafted yet. They have to combine the Finance Committee bill with the other(s).
2) I challenge you teabaggers to actually define socialism and explain how anything, anything at all, Obama or the Democrats are doing is socialist.
@Bart DePalma
Bart, a couple of days ago, on a related thread, you said:
Medical care is a well earned benefit of military service.
And I asked then (but you didn't have a chance to answer):
So, Bart, you admit that the government can run a good medical program?
Or are you saying we give second-rate care to our brave men and women in uniform? Is this a "benefit", or are we punishing them by not forcing them to buy private insurance on the open market?
When there are finalized versions of the bill from each house, they will be posted online, as they always are.
C'mon shrinkers, I dislike BDP's typical party line, but you're splitting hairs. Medical care is a benefit of the job of serving in the military. Just as pay is a benefit. It's "well earned" as in they did a hard job in order to earn it.
Whether it's actually good or not is another question.
And since this benefit was promised them when they signed up to serve, it's a moot point on whether we should force them to buy private insurance. I'm sure BDP would agree that we should fund the VA by taking tax money from people OTHER than veterans, something we couldn't do for everyone because there's no one else to take money from.
@Pan
C'mon shrinkers, I dislike BDP's typical party line, but you're splitting hairs.
Am not.
I want to hear from the conservatives who hate health care whether we should be providing this horrible boondoggle of second-rate care to our brave military men and women - or if we should be forcing them to buy insurance on the open market.
Do you view this as a benefit worth giving? Or are we doing a disservice to our military people by forcing them to accept public government-run health care?
I don't actually expect an honest answer - the same people who told the lies about death panels, about the Dem bills giving health care to illegal aliens, about funding for abortion - these liars and shills would be unable to admit the truth here -
The VA gives excellent care, and we offer it as a service because no private company could possibly do anywhere near as good a job. Government-run health care has thus already proven itself to be effective, efficient, and far superior to private options.
Or am I wrong? Should be stop forcing our service men and women to accept government-run health care?
Or can the conservatives here admit they're wong on this point?
Robert Bliss said...
I challenge you teabaggers to actually define socialism and explain how anything, anything at all, Obama or the Democrats are doing is socialist.
Government direction of the economy to redistribute wealth from citizens the government disfavors to citizens the government favors.
Examples of Obama socialism: Nationalization of Chrysler and GM; hiring, firing and setting salaries of employees in private companies; tax and cap and green jobs programs to redistribute wealth from fossil fuel industries the government disfavors to "green" industries it favors, while driving out of business the disfavored industries; and to Obamacare to redistribute wealth from private insurers the government disfavors to government insurance it favors, while driving out of business the disfavored insurers.
The last two plans are a fascinating and important variation of socialism using tax and police powers instead of de jure ownership to seize traditional ownership rights to direct the affected businesses.
@shrinkers
I've already had this argument with actual veterans. Many of them DO feel that the VA is terrible and they DO pay out of pocket for their insurance.
But, if anything, BDP and others would likely say WE should pay veterans private premiums out of pocket since it's a promised benefit.
The other option is that we increase funding to the VA. Make it a good program, but in a way that couldn't be applied to non-VA care because it requires more money than the participants alone can possibly put into it.
Seriously, you don't want to get into this argument in this way, because he's (rightly) have you beat.
Shrinkers,
I read all the time but don't post much. I can verify from two family members (brother and father) that the VA does indeed give great care. People conflate military care (Walter Reid) with VA care, they are different.
@BdP
Government direction of the economy to redistribute wealth from citizens the government disfavors to citizens the government favors.
surely low corporate taxes and low taxes on the rich also fit your definition, albeit in the opposite direction from that which you then imply.
shrinkers said...
I want to hear from the conservatives who hate health care whether we should be providing this horrible boondoggle of second-rate care to our brave military men and women - or if we should be forcing them to buy insurance on the open market.
The military already sends military dependents to the private sector for health care under the Tricare system and also many veterans who are not close to a VA health care provider.
The military requires its own health care system for members because private health care providers are obviously not available in war theaters.
My experience with the Army medical system ranged widely from mediocre to excellent depending upon the relative experience and competence of the care provider.
The VA can be far worse depending upon the hospital because there is next to no accountability to the veteran or anyone else.
Peter Wolf said...
@BdP: Government direction of the economy to redistribute wealth from citizens the government disfavors to citizens the government favors.
surely low corporate taxes and low taxes on the rich also fit your definition, albeit in the opposite direction from that which you then imply.
No. My definition has two elements: (1) direction of the economy, and (2) redistribution of wealth. The tax system only meets the second element, which makes it redistributionist, but not socialist.
BDP,
Your definition of socialism is overly simplistic. A truly socialist system involves the government both owning and controlling the means of production. Yes, we bailed out GM and essentially fired the CEO, but until we start giving them specific blue prints on new cars to build, that's not socialism.
Redistribution of wealth, while you may well disagree with the concept, is not inherently socialist.
Mule Rider's argument that Obama's administration is statist (as opposed to socialist) is a far more reasonable argument. While I disagree with the premise, I can understand it at least. So I think Mule Rider and I can probably agree to disagree there.
The socialism argument, on the other hand, simply doesn't hold water.
1. Not SO surprised about Reid showing backbone. Even he has to be aware that this image follows him around like a dark cloud. My guess is he figures that some bold initiative is the ONLY thing that will guarantee his return in the election (that and the behaviour of other Nevada politicians; thank you again GOP). I suspect Reid would rather go down in a blaze of glory than be swept under the carpet of history.
2. The White House. People continue to underestimate the power of this administrations rope-a-dope technique. I think they want a robust public option but they learned from Bill Clinton not to draw lines in the sand and alienate or shut down discussion with ultimatums.
BTW, Rachel Maddow had a nice primer on public option last night. Sort of a public option for dummies segment.
No argument with surprise 3 and 4 as they kind of go hand in hand. As the Republican party continues to implode and the strategy of making absurd claims about HCR rings hollow, it gives progressives an open door to fight back.
God bless Olympia Snowe for taking the olive branch but nobody paying attention thinks a trigger has anything to do with a public option. It's a slow death designed to stall until a possible change of political parties ensures that HCR is strangled on the chamber floor. Besides, we pulled the trigger back in Nov 2008 in a shot heard 'round the world.
I don't know if writing to representatives actually made a difference in this but I'd like to think it did. Because I'm uninsured and underemployed and ain't gettin' any younger.
I do think the Obama administration should weigh in more heavily at some point. At the very least he should say that he'd be happy to sign a bill with a robust public option in it (I'm sure he will but it would make pundits feel more comfortable).
There are on occasions, Nate, when I'm glad you're prognostications are incorrect. This is one of them.
Mule:
Wikipedia: Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.
The problem with this classical definition of socialism covering communism and economic democracy is that it concentrates on the means rather than ends of socialism and is also contrary to the real life ends of socialism.
When many folks think of socialism, the first thing that comes to mind are government owned and operated nationalized industries as in the old Soviet Union. Barack Obama’s partisans frequently offer this now antiquated vision of socialism to argue that the President’s many directions of the American economy are not really socialism at all because the government does not legally own the businesses being directed. I would suggest that this is a misleading distinction without any real difference.
Let us conduct a thought experiment comparing classical socialism with one of its modern evolutions. Under the classical model, the government owns the all means of producing electricity and uses that de jure ownership to shut down its coal power plants and redistribute the wealth produced by coal power plants to the solar power plants it prefers. In contrast, under a modern evolution of socialism, the government owns none of the means of producing electricity and instead uses its police powers to drive the coal power plants out of business through taxation and regulation and then redistributes the wealth produced by coal power plants to subsidize the solar power plants it prefers. There are no functional differences in the socialist ends being pursued by each government, only in the means used to arrive at these results.
The legal differences between the two forms of socialism used in our thought experiment are similarly illusory. Normally, the bundle of legal rights that comes with de jure ownership of a business includes the power to direct the affairs of that business. However, when the government seizes the power to direct a business from its legal owners, the government effectively becomes the de facto owner of that business. In each case, the government is exercising the traditional ownership right to direct the affairs of the business.
Thus, the common element in defining all versions of socialism is the government’s direction of the economy. Inclusion of the various means a government uses to direct the economy in a definition of socialism only succeeds in confusing the issue and in excluding modern evolutions of the ideology. Thus, I decline to include such means in my results oriented definition of socialism.
Some classical definitions of socialism also assume that the goal of government direction of the economy is to achieve equal redistribution of wealth. In fact, Marxist theory does not demand this egalitarian outcome. Marx’s dictum “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” only prescribes that wealth be redistributed according to a citizen’s needs and not necessarily equally. Marx’s communist state is tasked with determining your needs and whether you deserve to benefit from the wealth created by others.
In reality, actual socialist states never delivered equal outcomes and instead redistributed wealth to those groups it favored – starting with the socialist government itself. Socialist states always awarded themselves a disproportionately large share of the wealth they had nothing to do with creating. After carving out their share of the pie, socialist states would then direct the economy to redistribute wealth to create the goods and services the government rather than consumers desired. As George Orwell’s the scathing allegory of the Stalinist regime, Animal Farm, pithily observed: “Some pigs are more equal than others.”
BDP,
Your argument basically breaks down to: "I disagree with the accepted definition of socialism and therefore substitute my own definition."
I'm done arguing with you.
Robert Bliss said...
Your definition of socialism is overly simplistic. A truly socialist system involves the government both owning and controlling the means of production. Yes, we bailed out GM and essentially fired the CEO, but until we start giving them specific blue prints on new cars to build, that's not socialism.
Actually, the nationalization of Chrysler and GM neatly fit the classical definition of socialism given by Mule. More precisely, it is the economic democracy in which Obama marinated at college, as a community organizer and then running for the IL Sentae under both the Dems and the New Party ticket, a subsidiary of the Democratic Socialists of America. The government has assumed de jure ownership for itself and the UAW and is directing the operations of both companies. The boards for both nationalized companies were appointed by the government. Obama fired the prior GM CEO for submitting a viability plan which relied upon profitable small trucks and gave short shrift to the small "green" cars Obama preferred.
Bart De Palma…
I love it when you lose your temper. It means that you perceive yourself to be on the losing side of some issue, in today’s case, health care reform. When Bart is mad it means a new day is dawning in America…
It’s so laughable that you project that a public option will somehow “loot” the healthcare providers. Apparently looting, pillaging and rapine are OK with you as long as it’s done by the private insurers. If you are relying on a HSA to cover yourself in case of medical emergency I hope you are groveling nightly to whatever God you believe in to keep you healthy. People with half-baked, knee-jerk opinions like yours lose them pretty quickly when reality shows up and delivers a slap or two.
I suggest you move to some place where you won’t be bothered by such horrible, unfair and inhuman things as a social safety net. In fact Russia would be a perfect fit for you. No helping hands there—when you run out of options it’s out in the snow for you, товарищ.
Bart De Palma…
In a past life you must have been one of Stalin’s apparatchiks. You are so skilled at repeating mindless lies. Did the government really nationalize the auto industry, or was its action a fix designed to get them on their feet again?
You’re the human equivalent of milk that is six months past its sell-by date.
Robert Bliss,
thank you
It's beyond me why you liberals think a health care bill with a public option will help you in 2010 or 2012. Keep in mind - the goodies in the bill are largely not going to be in place until 2013. The tax increases will be immediate. Furthermore, the bill will not be popular with moderate and conservative voters, who hold a sword - whether you like it or not - over your House and Senate majorities. "Shoring up the base" - i.e., abandoning the middle - is what doomed the GOP majority, keep in mind.
The much bigger issue for voters is the economy and the deficit. This bill makes both problems worse. The CBO estimates are a joke - they are based in part on Medicare cuts that seem very unlikely. Obama has a major debt problem, and he had better address it soon.
@Jeff,
There are no tax increases. You're simply repeating teabagger talking points like the "death panels". Any public option will be paid for by the premiums of the poeple who choose that option, not by tax increases.
And, though some of the provisions of the plan will take a few years to roll out, the voters are not as stupid as you want them to be. They recognize when a real change has been passed (and this is one), and recognize that such a change will take a while to set up. So yes, it will help the Dems in 2010 and 2012.
The bills do not make deficit problems worse - the CBO scores them as actually reducing the deficit. You can say all you want "yeah, but but but but I don't believe them!" So find your own numbers, rather than just blathering on with the Fixed Noise talking points.
Jeff, Obama has a major debt problem because of Bush and the Republican led congress. Most voters understand that and still will in 2010.
But to go back on this tiresome socialism meme, conservatives, especially the talk-radio, Fox News watching ones, have used this on Obama in much the same way that they have overly glorified Reagan. They've grossly exaggerated Obama's "socialism" and grossly exaggerated Reagan's "pure free-market, small government" philosophy. In reality, Reagan was far more moderate than that and so is Obama.
@BDP -
You are the one who called VA hospitals a "benefit". I agree. So, should we remove this "benefit" and force vets to buy private insurance and go to private hospitals, or not? Do you agree that it is a "benefit"? Are we doing the vets a disservice?
I've heard unsubstantiated apocryphal and tales of vets who have had a bad experience with the VA. But I don't hear veterans groups telling us we should dismantle the VA system in favor of private insurance.
Either admit that the government does a good job with government-run health care, or come out squarely in favor of dismantling VA health care. You can't have it both ways.
We are talking about a 1500+ page secret bill
It's available on the internet, douchebag.
The jack-booted secret agents will be at your door momentarily to collect all you belongings and money for immediate redistribution shortly.
Goddamn, how did you get to be such an idiot, Bart?
Nate & Co., how precisely are you arriving at your claims about what is or is not in a secret bill that you have not been permitted to read?
@Bart DePalma
Nate & Co., how precisely are you arriving at your claims about what is or is not in a secret bill that you have not been permitted to read?
Bart, you and your friends are making claims about "socialist takeovers" and the inevitable horrible consequences of passing this bill. If it is a secret bill that no one is allowed to read, how, precisely do yo come up with your descriptions of it?
You guys stopped making sense a long time time. You're making it too easy.
Nate,
Some advice for you. I hope you take these setbacks as a sign that, while you are very skilled at interpreting polling data, you are not necessarily an expert at either understanding economics or at understanding what is going to happen on Capitol Hill.
I am not surprised that a bill has been passed with the public option. When 80% of the majority party's base wants a bill to go a certain way, there's only so much that can be done by the tiny minority party and the corporate media to derail it. All Summer we were treated to propaganda telling us that Democrats were going to betray their own voters. The lesson here is to not believe the hype.
I think its interesting that my two most trusted voices in politics, Nate Silver and Al Giordano came up with opposite perspectives on who was responsible for the current position on healthcare in congress. Al credits President Obama's Organizing for America's 350,000 phone calls to congress and claims that the progressive blogosphere wrung their hands but failed to accomplish anything.
Nate on the other hand gives credit to many parties, including progressive bloggers, but doesn't mention Organizing for America.
Clearly the truth is somewhere in the middle. Al Giordano fails to see the legitimate community that has developed around DailyKos and other sites, and the role their editors fill as organizers of that community. Nate fails to acknowledge the legitimate impact 350,000 constituent phone calls can have on turning the tide of legislation in congress.
Lieberman Says He'll Filibuster Reid Plan
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28788.html
Actually shrinkers, there are tax increases in the bill...on health insurance companies making exorbitant profits and on high-value health insurance plans.
While the tax on companies was a sensible Democratic idea, the dirty little secret is that the new tax on policies was a compromise to the blue dogs and moderate Republicans (it was in McCain's platform last year), added over the strong objections of union workers and other core Democratic constituents.
So the bill does include a much needed tax increase on insurers and a conservative-backed tax on insurees to make the subsidies budget neutral; it's not entirely correct to say it includes no tax increases.
The public option in itself of course contains no tax increases, and that is the part that will not be implemented until 2013.
Also, it's f'ing hilarious to see Bart repeat his secret bill canard after several posters linked to it. Here's another link to the Baucus bill just for fun.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.1796:
Maybe everyone here should keep posting links to the three bills until Bart shuts up and reads one of them.
Lieberman:
What a bastard. Make him do it. Make him become the turncoat we've known him to be for some time now.
If he wants a game of political chicken, so be it. Way to end your political career, Joe.
@whispers,
Yes, to use a poker analogy, the Great Right Wing Propaganda Machine went "all in" on this one, and it looks increasingly like they're going to lose.
And not far behind this loss is, IMHO, is an even bigger one, as the economy starts to sprout jobs.
And we owe much of it to the intelligent, concilliatory, unflappable, pragmatic gentleman presently residing in the White House.
Here's to you, President Obama.
Shrinkers:
I base my argument that Obamacare is socialism based upon Obama's statements about phasing in single payer before the election and the published House and Senate bills.
I have no idea what is in the House and Senate secret bills and neither do you.
@BDP
Which secret bills? Links have been posted. You mean the bills that haven't been written yet?
I am a huge fan of fivethirtyeight.com. The reasoned analysis was such a departure from the spin I continually encountered during the election.
Yet, I was very disappointed in Nate Silver's departure from both reason and analysis early in his outright dismissal of the public option, both stated and inferred from several comments made before an official "prediction" was made.
I was attracted to this site because it appeared to avoid herding with other media sheep, shepharded by Republican talking points not supported by observable facts. Yet, on the public option, Nate appeared to do just that.
With four months of debate, Nate's mea culpa is based spurious reasons unexpected from a statistician: his sizing up of Reid's backbone, his critique on Obama's unwillingness to display ideology over pragmatism for the public option (Obama always insisted the public option was a means to an end of competition and cost control), and his characterization of the Democrat's "regrouping" from tea parties which never galvanized significant interest from the public. No quotes of historical precedent, no opinion polls, no approval ratings...it appears Nate is suddenly averse to numbers.
It was in striking contrast to the brand I thought 538 represents.
I don't care whether you're right on the issues 100% of the time, even big ones. But, I do expect stances to be the result of deliberation instead of ideology...and in a rare instance, Nate chose the latter.
Re: Lieberman.
He's not a Dem. And this is why President Obama had a backup plan (Olympia Snowe). Thanks to that, the bill can survive, albeit in watered-down form.
Unless, of course, Lieberman is subjected to enough pressure.
According to the latest NBC/WSJ poll, support for a government-run insurance plan is "at its highest level since the debate began".
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/10/27/2109332.aspx?ocid=twitter
Pan:
The secret bill Reid discussed and Nate cited has been nowhere published and none of the previous published bills has legislative language actually implementing Reid's alleged opt out with an undisclosed non-Medicare reimbursement mechanism.
The reimbursement mechanism alone can cause a great deal of mischief. The Dems' idea of "negotiating" with health care providers usually involves an unaccountable government bureaucracy arbitrarily setting rates ala Medicare and Medicaid as well as past drug entitlement legislation.
The biggest canard on the right in the health care debate so far is the idea that a bill must have bipartisan support to be legitimate. If not, it's socialist.
Americans overwhelmingly elected a Democratic President, as well as 257 Representatives in 45 states and 59 Senators in 36 states aligned with the Democratic party.
It doesn't really matter what socialist means to BDP, the thinking world, or anyone else. If a bill that has the support of a huge majority of both houses and of the people in general is really "socialist," the Republicans need to reconsider the pejorative use of the word socialist.
Liebermann is losing it. He refered to selling public option policies as an "entitlement". :(
@Mr. Universe
I don't know if writing to representatives actually made a difference in this but I'd like to think it did.
Letting your rep hear a little noise isn't a bad thing. In that sense I think that a tip of the hat to blogs making a little noise is well due. But that HCR was dead and that these blogs were the key to bring it back? That seems little more than spun fiction.
@Jacob,
Thanks for the corrections. You're correct, of course.
My point was that the link that conservatives are trying to make between tax increases and the public option is absurd - the public option is not being paid for through tax increases.
@BDP -
You still haven't said if we should dismantle government-provided VA health benefits.
And there is no plan called "Obamacare", so again, you're just making things up. But to criticize a bill for what it contains, then to maintain that no one knows what it contains because it is being kept secret - well, you have left all logic far behind.
@Dwight
Liebermann is losing it.
This assumes he had it to begin with. I think we all know he didn't.
shrinkers said...
@BDP - You still haven't said if we should dismantle government-provided VA health benefits.
The government should provide veterans a voucher to purchase private insurance covering a defined list of military related diseases and injuries or to be used to pay in part for a full insurance policy. The VA hospital system should be defunded and privatized or dissolved.
why is anyone talking to BdP? I mean seriously - he's ignoring the responses and repeating what he said before....
As far as Obama's "backup plan" to Lieberman being Snowe:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/27/guarantees-senate-bills-public-plan/
Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine, said she was "deeply disappointed" by Reid's decision.
And the next plan, Landrieu: "very skeptical"
Nelson? "not committing"
Keep hoping, but it doesn't look that good.
Lieberman is ironically doing Obama and the congressional Dems a favor. They secretly do not want to pass any version of the healthcare bills currently being bantered about Capital Hill.
The bills are such patch-work, piece-meal, bloated monstrosities that if they somehow get the votes to pass one of these bills (without any Republican support) the public will hang every emerging problem, issue, slip-through, over-sight, etc. within the entire pan-national healthcare arena around Obama, Reid, and Pelosi’s collective neck for years to come.
This is all a dog and pony show. You guys know this is true. What you really want is single payer.
I don't think you were wrong in the first place. Politico just posted that Lieberman has publicized his intention to filibuster the plan, and I suspect that Bayh, Baucus, and Nelson aren't far behind, which will leave the legislation stalled at about 55 votes. Reid is not dumb, he must have known this. Bottom line, is that the whole public option show was just a show to protect his left flank. It will be debated, cloture will fail at 56 or so votes, and then it will be reintroduced without a public option, which will succeed with 61 votes. The only difference is that now Reid isn't the scapegoat.
"Unless, of course, Lieberman is subjected to enough pressure."
What, like "enhanced interrogation?"
@BDP
Ah, so the bills that haven't been written yet. Yes, it's scandalous that they don't post the daily edits as part of a blog or something. And why stop at healthcare? We need daily diffs between every congressman's working drafts, even before they have been submitted to the rest of congress. Thanks for the clarification on your thinking.
@Walker: "What you really want is single payer."
What you really want is for sick people to die and die quickly.
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought it was Sweeping Stereotype Generalization Day.
@ Joseph
I do expect stances to be the result of deliberation instead of ideology...and in a rare instance, Nate chose the latter.
I don't get your conclusion.Ideologically,Nate is for a strong public option.It was his deliberation that failed here.
@Jacob
The biggest canard on the right in the health care debate so far is the idea that a bill must have bipartisan support to be legitimate. If not, it's socialist.
"Socialist" is the right wingnut term for "Bad! Scary! Ick!" because if they actually say "Bad! Scary! Ick!" then they sound as stoopid as they really are. Few teabaggers even know what "socialist" means (as the wingnuts who comment here have shown). It's really used just a generic cuss-word to be applied to anything proposed by the Democrats.
Because, after all, the only way the Republicants know to seize power is through fear, and they are hoping "socialism" is a scary enough word, even if it is devoid of any actual meaning.
(P.S. Bernie Sanders is an actual socialist - sometime the wingnuts should ask him what it means. And by the way, he is one of the least scary politicians I've ever seen.)
@ Bart De Palma,
As a person, who spent the first 43 years of his life in the Soviet Union, who has never had any love to the totalitarian regime, and who came to this country thinking that his ideology was that of the Republican Party, I need to say the following:
You have no idea what a "government run healthcare is", and you have no idea of what "government run social policy" is. Yes, medical technology in the former Soviet Union was in many aspects many years behind the medical technology in the US. I can confirm this a son of the best wrist surgeon of his generation in Soviet Union/Russia. At the same time, the "healthcare" as the means to deliver care to population was superb as compared to what we have in the US. Yes, in many cases the lack of technology would not allow to save lives. But in many, many more cases people would not get to that miserable state of health due to the lack of insurance, or lack of money, or both.
Well, you may not be wrong after all. Joe Lieberman just announced that he will not vote for cloture on any bill containing a public option in any form. I hope he's bluffing, but I'd bet he's not. He seems to have some kind of sick obsession with standing in the way of things and bucking his caucus.
Anyone from Connecticut: call, email, write, threaten (j/k) and downright harass Senator Lieberman with all your might!
IAmMrZebra et al:
Analyzing Lieberman's Threat
Senate Democratic aides tell Political Wire that too much is being made of Sen. Joe Lieberman's declaration that he would back a Republican filibuster of health care reform legislation. They think he's just jockeying for influence and may even be there when needed.
Lieberman said he may vote for cloture to bring the bill to the Senate floor. He said he wants debate and will likely support efforts to strip the public option from the bill through an amendment. Lieberman can then oppose cloture before a final vote. He would even get a chance to vote against cloture when the conference report combining the House and Senate bills is brought back to the Senate.
First Read: "Right now Lieberman's with Reid. Reid needs a first down. And Lieberman's with Reid for that first down. Reid doesn't have enough votes quite yet for that first down, but Lieberman's with him -- for now."
-Jeff
The obvious thing to do, the things that Reid will not do, is to actually make those people voting against cutting off debate on this bill, to actually, physically and in-person, debate the bill.
If Lieberman, Nelson, Snowe et. al. actually do not want to stop talking about the bill and put it up for a vote, then make them debate. Until the cows come home.
But we all know that Reid wouldn't do that.
Does cloture require 60 votes or does it require 60% of the quorum? I don't know myself.
Nate & Co., how precisely are you arriving at your claims about what is or is not in a secret bill that you have not been permitted to read?
The Senate Health Committee and the Senate Finance Committee passed through two COMPLETELY different bills. Health's bill has a public option, Finance doesn't. (S. 1679 and S. 1796 respectively.)
As a result, like we've done it for more than 200 years, a NEW bill will be created that compromises between the two. This bill will be published and debated on the Senate floor for weeks. It is this bill that will contain Mr. Reid's proposal, as a compromise between the two committees.
So far as I can tell, you appear to be upset that Senator Reid did not use his psychic powers to predict what the bills were going to be ahead of time, so that he could publish a multi-thousand-page compromise bill in under a week.
You also appear to have used your own psychic powers and determined that Mr. Reid is going to bring the compromise legislation to the floor and then, in contravention of 200 years of Senate history, refuse to allow any debate or amendments.
Or, option B, you don't know or don't care how the legislative process works and just wanted to bash Democrats some more.
(And to answer your question directly, Nate is making claims based on what Reid has said will be in the document. The bill is not and will not be "secret", nor will Democrats "rubber-stamp" it.)
Its great this whole thread is a redux of BDPs arguments throughout the summer on health insurance. Nothing new mind. Oh he hasn't mentioned his HSA, but thats about the only thing he missed out.
Secret bill check
socialism check
unpopular check
Proving himself to not be quite as smart as he thinks he is check
Its really quite funny.
Anyhoooo on Lieberman, my guess is that even Reid is not stupid enough to risk putting a bill this big and prestigious forward if he isn't pretty sure about it passing. So I am guessing he wasn't counting on Lieberman. I am guessing he has some assurances from a few moderate or constitutional type Republicans on the cloture vote.
Also lets not forget Robert Byrd. I think Reid would be sensible enough to know that Byrd could keel over at any time, and that some sort of insurance would be needed in that circumstance.
By the way BDP, The Patriot Act, a response to the 9/11 attacks, was passed when?
It was signed into law on 26th October 2001. 6 weeks after the 9/11 attacks. With little or no debate.
@Opus132:
I'm glad you see the failure of deliberation. A site whose prominence is the direct result of such analysis took a weird turn toward something different.
I use ideology as it relates to the media. Media sites are often the incarnate of entrepreneurial truth-seekers. However, as the importance of access casts its shadow and riches become more accessible, there's a disappointing shift to what I deem the media's ideology: noise over substance and indirect efforts to protect the powerful either by amplifying their message with little scrutiny and rarer refutation or by ignoring or dumbing-down critical aspects of debate in order to muddy the waters, a tactic that helps artificially create a floor of support for flawed positions.
In 538's case, its casual dismissal of a position that was supported by as much as 2/3 of the nation (72% reported today), 4 of 5 congressional committees, and the President, reflected a shift toward ideology getting in the way of deliberation.
Before today, I'd never commented, but I wanted 538 to know that people notice. And, at a time in which the traditional media is at worst dying a very conspicuous death and at best suffering a debilitating malady, be it tv or print, I'd hope that 538 recognizes that it's not just the medium that's responsible but the ways of doing business.
The VA hospital system should be defunded and privatized or dissolved.
Holy shit you are stupid.
The VA is less costly and more efficient then private insurance, and the quality of care is the same and in many cases better then at private hospitals.
Not surprising coming from a right wing fucktard that is demanding to see a bill that is not written yet.
Wake up you dummies -- you've been had. The "public option" now on the table is so limited, so circumscribed, so crippled, that it is doomed to fail.
Think about it -- level playing field; no government subsidy; only the poor and unemployed; can't discriminate on health status ==> it will have a sicker customer base and will have to charge higher premiums to survive. In fact, the commercial health insurers are laughing up their sleeve, since the public "competitor" will have to take the sickest off their hands.
It's a huge poison pill. The Health Insurance industry has w-o-n!
For all of you McCarthy chumps out there waving the word socialism around as a pejorative curse word, try looking up oligarchy. That's what your health care industry is.
noun. a small group of people having control of a country, institution, or organization
That is not an atmosphere of competition.
Personally, I like the term cartel:
noun. an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintianing prices at a high level and restricting competition.
The health insurance industry should have been sued long ago for violating the RICO act. Price fixing. Gouging. Restraint of trade.
Anybody up for a class action suit if this reform goes down in flames?
@djlewis
Wake up you dummies -- you've been had. The "public option" now on the table is so limited, so circumscribed, so crippled, that it is doomed to fail.
The point is, once passed, it will exist. It can be improved later.
There are problems with it, yes. For one thing, it should be available to everyone, just to those who don't currently have insurance. This would bring real competition, if an employee can choose the public option rather than the insurance provided through the employer.
But - first things first. Gotta start somewhere. After 40 years, we're still playing with Medicare. After 60, we're still improving Social Security. After more than 200, people are still suggesting amendments to the Constitution.
There's no doubt there will be ways to improve any program. But having something to improve upon is a lot better than having nothing at all.
Mr. Universe,
Anybody up for a class action suit if this reform goes down in flames?
Unfortunately, by federal law, the insurance industry - and major league baseball - are the two industries that are immune to anti-trust regulations. You're right, insurance is a cartel - but, surprisingly, they're a legal one.
This is one of the things that the health care reform bills would correct - it's already in the House bill, it's being proposed as an amendment to the Senate bill - that health insurance companies would be subject to anti-trust and RICO laws.
Here's the link:
http://lieberman.senate.gov/contact/
I believe, some increased email volume on the Senator's Web site won't hurt
Unfortunately, by federal law, the insurance industry - and major league baseball - are the two industries that are immune to anti-trust regulations. You're right, insurance is a cartel - but, surprisingly, they're a legal one.
I believe you missed the NFL, they've been given extra leeway, too.
I believe you missed the NFL, they've been given extra leeway, too.
It may be that "professional sports" has this exemption from anti-trust. Not certain - somebody could research it, I'm sure :)
Anyway, other than them, health insurance is the only industry allowed to escape from this protection from monopolies.
beavis said...
The VA hospital system should be defunded and privatized or dissolved.
Holy shit you are stupid.
Only stupid if he really wanted the government to spend less money, rather than spend less money on what he wants.
It may be that "professional sports" has this exemption from anti-trust. Not certain - somebody could research it, I'm sure :)
All the big pro sports, to some extent need the leeway.
Unlike the health insurance industry, with professional sports it isn't one specific exemption. It's been done adhoc over the years. For example when the NFL negotiated a single TV contract, that is for all the teams to act as a single entity in negotiations, that required a specific act of congress.
The health insurance was the reaction to a SCOTUS ruling back in the '40s. The ruling found that the fed could regulate certain aspects of the insurance industry under the Commerce Clause. An act come out of Congress to return that regulation back to the states. Repealing that law is likely to get 10th Amendment folks up in arms (even though the 10th Amendment was found to be subservent to the Commerce Clause).
I believe that's why the GOP hasn't been making as much noise about the alternative way of bringing competition. It would, logically and in part, require the repealing of that Act and there are plenty in the party "base" that would freak. Especially the politicians who rely on 10th Amendment rhetoric for some of their draw (I'm glancing at you, Governer Goodhair).
Thanks for the research and info, Dwight!
This is the reason too why allowing insurance to be bought across state lines is such a bad idea. 1) 10 Amendment folks should hate that idea, because it lessens the power of their state, and 2) insurance companies would all relocated to the state that allows them to screw people the most.
So it is surprising that conservatives like the idea of allowing purchase across state lines. Or maybe not. Conservatives have always been all about screwing people, and ignoring their own central values.
Nate: I and others warned you about the economy thing, and it will get worse....your analysis is right, but you are using a corrupted data set, BLS govt stats...
It will get ugly, and the comeing ugliness in the economy will affect many other predictions, be careful
The exposed Senate Dems are already bailing on the Reid proposal. Imagine that, Reid lied about the support for the bill.
@BdP
Ha ha ha ha ha!!! hee hee :)
Okay, I'm alright now.
No, I'm not.
HAHAHAHAHAH!
titter titter chuckle :)
The one who is dumber than a Palmetto?
Can you tell us which brand of Tea Bagger you subscribe to:
1. Are you a Tea Bagger Patriot Tea Bagger? or
2. Are you a Tea Bagger Express Tea Bagger? or
3. Are you so clueless that you have no idea which Tea Bagger brand you subscribe to?
My bet is on No. 3.
Mike in Maryland
@Nate You wrote: "I made two predictions this summer that look like they're not going to turn out very well. One was saying that the unemployment rate wouldn't hit 10 percent (it hasn't yet, although it probably will) and the other was saying that the public option was "probably" dead."
I think if you look back, I called you out on both of these. Not because the unemployment will necessarily top 10% (it likely will) or that the Pub. Opt is not dead (the whole enterprise might be dead), but because your "sin" was hubris.
Statistically analysis can only do so much at some point.
To really make predictions you have to understand the underlying substantive processes: in these two case: a) unemployment/recessions/depressions and b)the political process of legislation making.
This does not necessarily mean being an expert in the field. Sometimes it just means having some visceral life experiences beyond following box scores, trading baseball cards, and gambling.
I think you are too young to have viscerally experienced Reagan's Recession, so notwithstanding being from Michigan you couldn't really wrap your head around what a recession really looks like; much less one that keeps being described correctly or incorrectly as being the worst since the Great Depression. If that is true, then it must be worse than Reagan's recession.
As to the political craft of legislation: do you have any contacts with long time (15-20+ years) Hill staffers? Probably not, so you don't really understand or have tho foggiest notion of how the sausage is made, how victory can be snatched from the jaws of defeat and how defeat can be snatched from the jaws of victory. Nor, do I think you understand the dynamic that once you get past July of the first year of Congress, everything easily becomes about reelection which becomes intensified when there is a new President and especially when the President is of a different party than the previous executive. Nor do I think you have any particular thoughtful incites into the different rhythms of the Houses.
While we do get the government we deserve, we don't always get the legislation that we ostensibly want (as measured by polls and statements of pols). Sometimes this is disturbing and sometimes we ought to thank God that we don't get what the people think they want. I think Jerry Brown once said that its easy to do a two-step to populist fascism without even knowing its happening.
@jdk, talk about hubris...
@everyone-else
wouldn't a better opt-out be at the level of individual legislative districts? perhaps as a decision of individual representatives. ok, maybe not better, but funnier?
I actually the AHIP report was the number 1 factor in the rebirth of the public option. Baucus' whole attitude to them soured overnight, and other conservative dems must have questioned their faith in insurance companies. I mean, the report was basically PROMISING to raise rates a lot if they don't get the bill perfectly their way...I mean, they could make that come true no matter if they needed to or not. And the dems thought, are we going to put an actual MANDATE on people to buy their stuff and they'll screw us? They hesitated to do that...
Nate Silver is a selectively good analyst of polls. On the "public option", he's spinning. Jay Cost is doing better analysis, and explaining why legislators aren't flocking to the supposedly "popular" public option. See here:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2009/10/the_public_option_in_the_nbc_n.html
There are about 6 Dem Senators opposing the government option and reportedly the House Whip is reporting that there are 47 Dems who are committed no votes, 8 leaning no and 12 undecided.
House Whip is reporting that there are 47 Dems who are committed no votes, 8 leaning no and 12 undecided.
That's only for the top left one, or at lest the upper left column, on Nate's little chart. It doesn't sound like that is how the House version will be drafted (probably because of the difficulty in getting enough votes to get it passed). So are you counting the Senators that way, too?
It's not a huge deal since that particular option has long been very unlikely to get by the Senate, it was just a matter of jockeying for position when reconciling with the Senate's version.
Further that poster a couple threads back that urged to have negotiated rather than fixed rate had some pretty good points that going fixed-rate has problems fitting widely varying economies across the country.
P.S. We'll have a much better idea by next week, I suppose.
The most significant factor is that they gave the process enough time for the excesses of the nutjobs to be exposed.
Over a short period of time, the Republican lie machine can dominate the news with bogus information and propaganda, but eventually the truth emerges to their discredit. The trick is simply to give them enough rope to hang themselves.
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