10.07.2009

Obama's Domestic Afghanistan Puzzle

The national security, regional stability and humanitarian elements of the Obama Administration's Afghanistan policy are a difficult mess of intertwined problems to disentangle. Reading the lengthy profile of Richard Holbrooke, Obama's "special representative" for Afghanistan, in last week's New Yorker, only makes one depressed. "The conflict in Afghanistan will be far more costly and much, much longer than Americans realize," predicted Holbrooke in March, 2008. "This war, already in its seventh year, will eventually become the longest in American history."

Tomorrow, in fact, Afghanistan enters its ninth year, and now stands just four months shy of the American Revolution, six shy of Vietnam. With no end in sight, Afghanistan is also the riskiest and most dangerous foreign policy issue--and thus one of the riskiest electoral gambits--of Obama's presidency. Yesterday, Obama met with relevant congressional leaders from both parties to discuss American policy in Afghanistan. Legislators on both sides of the aisle expressed reservations; Obama's vanquished 2008 presidential opponent John McCain was apparently a particularly vocal critic. The president is having top-level staff meetings later this week to discuss both Pakistan and Afghanistan, specifically Gen. Stanley McChrystal's recommendation of an additional 40,000 troops.



Putting aside the policy challenges and uncertainties, how thorny is the political thicket for Obama?

Pretty thorny. There are divisions between the parties, divisions within his own party, and divisions among the American public more broadly. A new Quinnipiac poll shows how divided and discouraged Americans are. Though a 52 percent majority think "the war...is the right thing to do," 37 percent do not and by only a 49-38 percent margin do they think the war there will successfully remove the terrorist threat to the United States. (I cannot help but pause here to note that critics of Obama's health care reform who say the public option is unpopular with Americans ought to be reminded that public support for the public option is higher than that for the war in Afghanistan.)

As for pols, McCain, who expressed support for the administration's policy back in March, reportedly warned Obama against moving at a "leisurely pace" s outburst yesterday. On her Facebook page, McCain's 2008 running mate says Obama should stand firm. "Our allies and our adversaries are watching to see if we have the staying power to protect our interests in Afghanistan," wrote Sarah Palin. "I recently joined a group of Americans in urging President Obama to devote the resources necessary in Afghanistan and pledged to support him if he made the right decision. Now is not the time for cold feet, second thoughts, or indecision -- it is the time to act as commander-in-chief and approve the troops so clearly needed in Afghanistan."

There are two fundamental domestic political truths about Afghanistan for Obama. The first is that this is a war without much of a political upside because it is difficult to ever prove that we have "won" it, for even temporary victories can be reversed. There will be no armistice, convention, or capitulation, and the asymmetries of the fight mean that the "enemy," such as it is, can always regroup or displace. We can only measure victory by the vague metric of days during which no major terrorist attack hits America or its allies, or by the withdrawal or reduction in resources invested there. The second is that, although Obama inherited the war, he owns that inheritance by virtue of his statements during the 2008 campaign. He can complain about the war's intractable nature, but he cannot complain about its burden or point as directly to the persistence of the problem as a result of his predecessor's (in)actions.

Having said that, and given the grumblings by McCain and Palin, I wonder if we are about to witness the (partisan) politicization of Afghanistan in the way we saw the "Waterloo"-style opposition to Obama's health care plan. During the Bush era, Republicans used the politics of warmaking to cudgel Democrats, and warned that criticisms of the president or his policy amounted to near-treasonous politicization of, and thus the undermining of, America's national security interests. There are no real good solutions in Afghanistan, but whatever semi-promising options are available to us need not be clouded by a new round of shameless politicking designed to batter the president at the expense of non-failure--I hesitate to use the word success--in Afghanistan.

61 comments

Yiannis said...
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Yiannis said...

I opposed the Iraq war.

Beating the Taliban is imperative for two reasons: Firstly, it is the only place on the globe where Al Qaeda can get organized and plot attacks on the western world. Their victory will be the end of Pakistan and nobody knows what will happen to the Pakistani nuclear weapons. Secondly, the taliban represent the most brutal, animalistic tendencies of man, have no regards for human life and mutilate half of their population.

I know these are the arguments the W. administration made to invade Iraq. In the case of Afghanistan they fully apply. The US will be in Afghanistan for decades to come. As it should.

John said...

The saddest part is that Obama has already increased troops levels in the region 45% since he took office, yet no one wants to mention that when wondering why "he's taking so long" to authorize another batch so quickly? Nor do i hear much mentioned on why there were so few troops there to begin with from the "military supporting" right. This is just another issue they will use to wedge the American populous who doesn't seem to want to know any better. And eventually, Obama will go along, can't be seen as the guy who lost the war over there (regardless of the truth of when, who and how).

Kennyb said...

The dems need to demand that Palin and the other Afghan "hawks" define what they mean by "protect our interests in Afghanistan". Otherwise, they will blame Obama for any result. Do not let them define the mission later using 20/20 hindsight, because then they will say you have not met it. What interests specifically? A peaceful, democratic Afghanistan? A drug-free Afghanistan? An Afghanistan that will not destabilize Pakistan? An Afghanistan that is not a free haven for Al Queda? An Afghanistan not governed by Al Queda by proxy? All of the above?

Make Palin explain what she means, and then, maybe, you can figure it out yourselves too!

shiloh said...

Afghanistan is a stone age country who very much wishes to remain a stone age country. Sort of like Oklahoma. ;)

that is all

Mule said...

Make Palin explain what she means, and then, maybe, you can figure it out yourselves too!

Last I checked, Sarah Palin was a private citizen and Barack Obama is the President. I could care less what she thinks. Her authority and influence is limited to telling her children when to come to dinner, and even that is dubious.

This is all on BHO's shoulders. Talk of George Bush, Sarah Palin, et al are just attempts by the left at scapegoating and deflecting attention elsewhere and away from His Highness.

It won't work! That asshole campaigned vigorously to be elected to the executive office for 18 months, and now it's all his!

james said...

I don't understand why the Administration doesn't make a very public offer to the Taliban. Give us Al-Qaeda and we will leave Afghanistan. Isn't that why we are there? I mean if they refuse then that should justify our staying there. If they comply....well, that's a win.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

What I don't get is this.

Support for attacking Iran is fairly high and all they've done is run their mouths. Staying in Afghanistan to prevent al-Qaeda, the guys who attacked us, is relatively low.

I'm starting to lose faith in all polling because I just can't believe Americans are more gun ho on bombing Iran then continuing to keep al-Qaeda in check.

David said...

"but he cannot complain about its burden or point as directly to the persistence of the problem as a result of his predecessor's (in)actions."

I disagree. It took 7 years of mismanagement of the war in Afghanistan to bring us to this point, and it's going to take a long time to undo that damage. Obama is so careful never to blame anything on Bush that he's missing the opportunity to explain to the country why they should have some patience.

Same thing with the economy, by the way. The current train wreck was in the works starting in around 2002 when the bad mortgages started begin sold and bundled en masse. Republicans complaining that he hasn't turn the economy around and it's already been 8 months need to be reminded of that.

shiloh said...

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

What I don't get is this.
~~~~~~~~~~


Pretty basic. America has been at war in Afghanistan for (8) years and is not currently at war in Iran.

Americans typically tire of war after 3/4 years ie Vietnam. Especially no end game wars ...

p.s. Americans love to blow things up! No muss, no fuss. ;)

GROG said...

From Gallup today:

"The Democrats are now barely ahead of the Republicans, 46% to 44%, in registered voters’ party preferences for next year’s congressional elections. That differs from the typical double-digit Democratic leads of the past two years. More independents now favor Republican than Democratic candidates."

I thought the Republican Party was dying?

Erica Peters said...

Sadly, I bet we'll still be in Afghanistan in 2012. Bush senior won his war too quickly, and lost the '92 election; his son learned that lesson and allowed his wars to drag on. Americans hate to change leaders during a war. If we do get out, it'll be because our fighters are needed for a more impressive war.

slasher14 said...

1. The idea that we need to retain large numbers of troops in Afghanistan to keep Al Queda in check is pretty bogus by now. Al Queda has set up shop in Pakistan, and is under attack from our drones (and probably some special forces as well) in spite of the fact that it's a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty for us to do that. The principle is, hey, these are the guys who attacked us, and you aren't doing squat about keeping them from doing it again. So WE will, and if you don't like it, tough shit.

Permitting groups of people to carry out terrorist attacks on other countries is an act of war, and if it's known, as it is in Pak. (and was in Af.) that it is happening, I would argue that invasions of sovereignty are appropriate.

There's no reason why that principle can't be applied to Afghanistan. It won't be as totally effective as being in-country with tens of thousands of troops, but it will be effective enough, as indeed it has been since Bush let Al Queda escape over the border in 2003. The idea that the United States is going to spend the next decade or two in Af. and accomplish much that it can't do otherwise is silly. Even the Soviets, whose pro-war politics was even direr than ours, eventually figured that out.

2. But, of course, the Republican Party is setting Obama up so that if there is a terrorist attack in this country, he will take the full brunt of the blame. That's what all of this is about.

3. And Obama must also take his share of the blame, because he did endorse the Af. war without reservations during the campaign and again afterwards.

I believe one reason he did so was to foreclose criticism while he pulled us out of Iraq, because in the infantile minds of those who swallow the Republican Party line, Democrats opposed the war in Iraq because they were cowards afraid of a fight. Obama dealt with this, in part, by endorsing the war in Af. and, indeed, we DID have to invade Af. and drive out the Taliban in the wake of 9/11. It's not Obama's fault that we did NOT have to then let the place slide back to where it had been while persuing an adventure in Iraq, but he's talked his way past that explanation by now.

And now that it begins to look as if Af. may well turn into an endless morass, he's back where he started trying to counter the Republican insistence on machismo as a party brand. To some extent, Obama deserves what he's getting.

Persuter said...

I thought the Republican Party was dying?

lol, and one Gallup generic Congressional poll pulls them back from the brink! Whew!

shiloh said...

GROG said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Congrats on posting your o/t minutia! One is now excused to return back to freepertopia ...

Walker said...

This recent and insipid Democratic hand-wringing regarding the Afgan campaign is why voters can't trust Democrats on matters of national security.

What about this being the "good war"? What about the "war of necessity"? When Obama was campaigning it seemed he was saying that this was the war he was commited to winning.

Our enemies are laughing at us.

American power down the toilet.

shiloh said...

and the last (8) years is why voters won't trust the party of No! anytime soon re: national security.

Walker, did one sleep thru the cheney/bush monarchy? god you're clueless!

Matt said...
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Matt said...

Grog: Two different issues. The "Republican party is dying" thing generally follows what party affiliation people claim to have. The Gallup poll was on which party's candidates people would support for Congress (Apparently. Can't seem to find the exact question asked).

So apparently the people who are leaving the Republican party (Or claim to be doing so, at least) still plan to vote Republican, at least for Congress, in a Republican-Democrat matchup (No idea if there were 3rd party options in the poll, suspect not). What, if anything, this means in the long term for the Republican party, I have no idea.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

For those mulling the idea Republicans are on some sort of National comeback, I give you:

Exhibit A

N2WN said...

Looks like we will add our name to the long list of countries who will have nothing to show for the time spent in Afghanistan. Oh when will they ever learn...

Just hope we don't end up like the Soviets.

As to the Taliban, let's say we do defeat them (although as I recall they were not a functional organization according to the previous administration). Are we naive enough to think that some other organization won't pop up to fill that void?

Do we bankrupt ourselves chasing these shadows?

Pragmatus said...

I think what Afghanistan calls for is some sophisticated psy-ops. Psy-ops were not effective in Vietnam because of the homogeneity of the opposition, who all had one goal—a united Vietnam and getting rid of a hated corrupt regime propped up by the U.S. In Vietnam there was nothing for psy-ops to appeal to. In A-stan however wars have swept over the landscape for a thousand years, and they have all been tribal, a state of affairs to which the hierarchy of the Taliban is not immune. All these tribes are suspicious of each other, and, as seen in Pakistan after the recent killing of a top Taliban leader, are always eager to get at each other’s throats.

So my advice would be to concentrate NATO forces in the cities and along the important roads, and get busy planting rumors and fan suspicions whose purpose would be to inflame tribal rivalries within the Taliban. Forget winning the hearts and minds of the people. They’re only interested in keeping out of the way of violence, and will blandly kowtow to whomever happens to hold sway in their village at any given moment.

Do what the British did in India. They didn’t conquer it—they simply made alliances with certain princely states and then fomented rivalries between others and waited to profit from the ensuing fallout, until eventually, with scarcely anyone realizing what was happening, the whole of India was a client state.

The one impediment to this is the government of Hamid Karzai, as corrupt and venal as anything South Vietnam produced. But we should keep our hands entirely off any indigenous attempt to overthrow or remove him, or even a decision, even if only be default, to let him stay.

Pat said...

Amazing the partisan behavior here...

Here's the general school of thought on Afganistan. Either all in, or pretty much all out.

What that means is, either give McCrystal the forces he needs to truly pacify the country ala Iraq, set it up so it's SAFE outside, and leave them in there for many, many, years, while shovelling in a boat load of reconstruction money. Idea is to set up the country like Jordan... a place that's unfriendly to extremist islam, and the terrorists it can spawn.

Or...get out. Let the country go back to the hellish civil war like setting it was when we got there. Leave in some special forces to hunt down Al Queda, some advisors for the "Afgani government" (as long as it stands), and some Drones and B-52s to airstrike as necessary.

The middle ground...leaving in just enough troops to not do the job..is a way to get a lot of US troops killed.

Of course, the political Angle from Obama's perspective needs to be considered. If he throws everything in, it's rather aggressive, rather expensive, and he takes on the far left liberal end of his party...something he doesn't like doing. If he instead pulls everything out, he's looked at as the "Weak president who lost Afganistan" by the moderates (who he cares about) and right (who he doesn't at this point). If he delays and runs a holding pattern (like now)...the political angles are balanced...but he ends up losing the war likely in the end.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I don't think comparisons to the Soviet war with Afghanistan are accurate that I've been hearing.

1) The Taliban came into rule AFTER the Soviets left.

2) We aren't fighting all Afghanis, we're targeting, for now, the Taliban.

3) We aren't trying to take the country over.

4) What remains, although a bit sketchy, of the Govn't is in support of us.

5) Their police/military, although not very powerful, are behind us.

6) Soviets had to contend with fighting a proxy war against the U.S. Although, if I'm not mistaken, the Iranians are supporting some Taliban forces to a lesser extent, it pales in comparison to the technological balance we gave to the Mujaheddin when we supplied them with technology to shoot down Soviet air power.

masanf said...

"I don't understand why the Administration doesn't make a very public offer to the Taliban. Give us Al-Qaeda and we will leave Afghanistan."


This is just plain silly. For one thing, if they were inclined to do that, they would have done it before we invaded Afghanistan in the first place, back when we offered them this exact deal. Furthermore, the Taliban has killed countless American troops, thus negotiating with them is probably a non-starter. Thirdly, they are no longer in charge of Afghanistan, so asking them to hand over al qaeda is pointless. They are not running a state; they are a band of terrorists, period.

And comparing approval ratings for this to approval ratings for the public option is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. This isn't comparing apples and oranges, it is comparing apples to asphalt. There is no comparison. The ramifications of allowing the Taliban to "win" and regroup are far more disastrous than not allowing the government to set up a Canadian-style healthcare system. Allowing polls to dictate your strategic policy is the pinnacle of weakness and piss-poor governance. A failure in Afghanistan would have foreign policy ramifications that would immediately and profoundly make the United States less safe. Obama can't vote present on this one like he has with every single issue since he took office.


And comparisons to Vietnam are even more fuc%ing retarded. The Taliban is not millions strong like the North Vietnamese were. According to Vietnam's own government archives, the United States military killed over 2 million North Vietnamese soldiers in the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War cost the live of a little over 58,0000 Americans. We have lost 800 in Afghanistan. Obviously it is sad that even one American soldier died, but the political calculus here is just not the same. There is simply no comparison here, at all. Furthermore, bringing up the Soviet experience is also ridiculous. The Taliban that were fighting the Soviets were backed by the practically bottomless pockets of the United States. There is no similar situation here. And as the post before mine aptly points out, there is at least a semblance of a government in Afghanistan that backs the United States and its allies and supports the destruction of the Taliban.

masanf said...

If any Vietnam comparison is to be made, it should be between the Taliban and the Viet Cong, and not the NVA. The Viet Cong, for all intents and purposes, ceased to exist in 1968 after they were absolutely annihilated during the TET offensive.

Obliterati said...

Seems like just yesterday we were being told it was treasonous to criticize the President's handling of a war...glad to see that's over.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Re: Facebook, McCain and other politicians

Facebook started out not that long ago as something for college students only. You needed a college email address to sign on, from a school FB recognized as legit. Then, they decided to allow high schoolers in, hoping to scoop MySapce. Then, they let everyone else in too.

What started out as a place for young people to keep track of friends and stay in touch when they moved away has turned into a website where the average age is 40. Its overidden with junk applications that slow the site down. It used to be fairly safe to post things like your address and phone number-a great thing if you want your friends to know how to find you. Now, it's stalker-iffic. Because you needed a college (or later, high school) email address, it was easier to filter out trolls or cyberstalkers-all they had to do was block access to that one email address, and since most schools will not issue you more than just the one, that effectively shuts you out for good if you cross the line.

FB got boring for me last year, and I stopped using it. Between 10 years olds I never met sending me friend requests, annoying requests to play pirates vs ninjas, and the idea that we can't have a little place on the web that's just for us anymore-that as soon as something becomes known as 'what all the kids are doing these days' creepy 50 year olds living out fantasies of their second childhoods have to log in and crash the party-its just too much.

As for the 'its the new technology' thing-they said YouTube would help the Iranian Revolution against Achmedinijad. Guess what? He's still there. As for Twitter, that was fun too-until everyone crashed the party, just like FB.

I wonder if this isn't the way it goes with everything. Int he 1960's, it was Haight-Ashbury, Woodstock and brown acid-now, its overpriced grateful dead t-shirts being worn by Senators and Congressmen, and Jimi Hendrix songs being used to sell cars on TV. In the 70's, punk was something poor kids did. Now, they sell punk uniforms that all look the same at Hot Topic for hundreds of dollars. In the 80's there was New Wave, Grunge in the 90's, and all that got ripped off and commercialized and crashed too. Now they're killing my generation's fun times too.

Fuck you, John McCain. Gimme back my Facebook.

Persuter said...

This recent and insipid Democratic hand-wringing regarding the Afgan campaign is why voters can't trust Democrats on matters of national security.

What about this being the "good war"? What about the "war of necessity"? When Obama was campaigning it seemed he was saying that this was the war he was commited to winning.

Our enemies are laughing at us.

American power down the toilet.


:facepalm:

We currently have 62,000 troops in Afghanistan, with another 6,000 planned. At this time last year, during Bush's term, we had 48,000 troops in Afghanistan. I am utterly lost, therefore, as to why you think voters can't trust "Democrats" on national security, unless you're saying that by sending another 33% of troops, we're sending American power down the toilet.

I particularly love how apparently Americans can't trust Democrats on national security because Obama's questioning sending thousands more troops on top of the thousands of extra troops he already sent, but apparently we can still trust Republicans, despite the fact that you personally are insisting that they did not send enough troops to Afghanistan for seven years. Thanks for making the double standard obvious.

Burt said...

Obama is probably going to escalate the war in Afghanistan, but not send as many troops as the generals want, thereby infuriating the left while also still allowing the Republicans to demagogue him on this issue.

Basically, the worst of both worlds.

Brian Jenkins said...

I think you're right, Burt. I wonder if anyone dares to mention the name "Robert MacNamara" in the White House these days.

If Barry had been honest and said he wanted our troops out of Afghanistan, as his primary supporters wanted and he probably does, there'd be no problem.

Of course, if he'd said that, his campaign would have ended in the snows of Iowa.

Lies have a way of catching up to you.

Dwight said...

@masanf
Furthermore, the Taliban has killed countless American troops, thus negotiating with them is probably a non-starter.

So few words SO MUCH CRAZY. First it isn't "countless". The number has been counted, and it's 870 give-or-take , I believe that includes self-inflicted fatalities. But that pales in comparison to the crazy of ruling out negotiating because some soilders [you have sent there] have died. :/

Antietam said...

Afghanistan is an interesting place, to say the least. I don't feel it's completely silly to make a Soviet comparison - we can learn from it. I know it's blasphemous to the Right to say we could learn something from the Soviets, but we can.

@liberal_defender_of_freedom: The Soviets were not fighting all Afghans either. The government was a communist one in the 1970's. They received munitions, financing, and training from the Soviet Union. When the religious fanatics (mujahideen) started a Civil War, the Afghan government fought it. However they were losing. They appealed to the Soviet Union for their intervention - it was NOT a unilateral Soviet invasion of conquest. They went in be the request of the government of Afghanistan, and never had any intention of conquering and annexing the country into the Soviet Union. The Afghan government and military was behind the Soviet forces.

Therefore, it's similar to where we are now. We have an Afghan government and military that is on our side, and dependent on us to fight the religious fanatics. For these similarities, we have much we can learn.

Regarding Vietnam - Afghanistan is very different. But one similarity is guerilla strategy. If the Taliban and those warlords in alliance continue the fight, eventually they will break our will (I feel they may have already done so with NATO). In spite of the myths of the Right, they are not immune (if only liberals supported a withdrawal from Vietnam after Tet why would LBJ retire, RFK and Humphries run on withdrawal, and Nixon run on withdrawal - twice - in '68 and '72?).

@masanf: The Taliban in and of itself are not terrorists. They've never attacked us (they attack our troops and interests IN Afghanistan, but that's VERY different than al Qaeda (an entirely separate group), because they are, in essence, the ad-hoc Afghan government in excel - like the Free French versus Vichy France), they have no intention of committing an international act of terrorism (bombing a subway in Germany, for example), and don't have the international capability to do so (they're only in Afghanistan - and presently only in Pakistan because they're in exile).

Polls DO matter. No amount of talking points from the Right will ever prove the myth that somehow Republicans are immune to polls. If you're governing the People, and EVERYBODY HATES YOU and EVERYTHING YOU DO, then you'll have no political support, will not be able to achieve any other policies, and will almost certainly lose reelection and will surely take your party with you.

Deciding to send more troops is hard, especially after you just sent a gaggle of new troops. The generals will always ask for more troops. There has never been a war we've been involved in where that didn't happen. Just ask Washington if he wanted more troops.

More troops don't mean victory. LBJ gave Westmoreland everything he asked for. Literally, LBJ never said no. But we lost. We lost for a myriad of reasons, but one is simply because the strategy was bad.

Just because a general asks for more troops doesn't mean he'll "win." The President has to consider the strategy. And no strategy is homogeneous. What worked in one place, like Iraq, may not work in Afghanistan (it needs to be restructured for the peculiarities of the country, which are widely different than Iraq). Even then, it still may not work. The President has already increased the troop strength, so having to send more, so soon, is a huge decision with much to weigh. I'm glad he's no acquiescing to the generals because they have stars. Just as there are some mistakes it takes a PhD to make, there are some that take stars to make.

Mule said...

So few words SO MUCH CRAZY. First it isn't "countless". The number has been counted,

Ah, there's nothing like our resident sophist doing what he does best. Instead of realizing this is a figure of speech and responding to the substance of masanf's statements, he jumps right in and attacks the literal meaning of the word(s) that were used and has nothing of substance in his own reply. Classic.

and it's 870 give-or-take

First of all, those are very precious lives, and you're hardly so casually dismissive of those military sacrifices when they're a part of a conflict that was waged by someone you disagree with. Secondly, do you want to share the number who've been injured or maimed and are permanently scarred, just shells of the people they once were due to debilitating injuries. I'm sure you'd gladly trot out those figures of tens of thousands of men and women if it were to fit your agenda, but here you gloss it over. More double-standards, I see.

, I believe that includes self-inflicted fatalities.

What does that matter? This is irrelevant and more compelling evidence you live your life just to be a devious and scornful sophist who isn't engaged in reasonable or intellectual dialogue. Whether you're talking "friendly fire" or "suicides," these men's (and women's) lives ended primarily in direct result of them having been sent into battle over there. Obviously, there life could have been cut short here at home by something else - or even still by suicide - but those people died in active duty and/or combat, and the "self-inflicted" nature of their deaths is completely irrelevant.

But that pales in comparison to the crazy of ruling out negotiating because some soilders [you have sent there] have died. :/

Maybe this wasn't articulated well, and maybe assuming to much context where little was presented, but the fact remains that these people were/are cut from the same mold of people that were/are willing to blow themselves up so long as it provides them the opportunity to take the lives of several "infidels." That mentality - and all of the tangential aspects of it - does indeed make negotiating with those kind of people a non-starter and has little/nothing to do with the number of soldiers' lives lost.


Again, you show you haven't a clue. Please get one. Now.

shiloh said...

People, get w/the program! The Afghanistan war ended March 2003 when cheney/bush started the bogus Iraq war ... Oh, my mistake, March 2003 was when cheney/bush stopped paying attention to Afghanistan because multitasking is such a nuisance.

btw, where were all these great Pentagon military minds from 2003 to Jan. 2009 as far as counsel and military options in Afghanistan. Oh yea, concentrating on how we were going to be greeted as liberators in Iraq after a couple wks ... Oops!

Let's call it the cheney/bush effect when the Military Joint Chiefs went brain dead from 2003 to Jan. 2009 or became sheep/cowards, one or the other ... and now the wingers are blaming Obama.

Priceless!

Again, just like the Vietnam war will always be a 100% Dem war, so will the Afghanistan/Iraq wars always be 100% Rep er cheney/bush wars.

Know it, learn it, live it, believe it ...

The 2006/2008 election results made clear who is to blame for Afghanistan and Iraq as 20,000 U.S. soldiers and 300,000 Vietnamese died under nixon's watch from '69 to '74 and yet he was re-elected in a landslide in 1972.

'nuf said!

p.s. nixon's secret plan to end the Vietnam war remains a secret to this day ...

Persuter said...

p.s. nixon's secret plan to end the Vietnam war remains a secret to this day ...

His plan was to so thoroughly undermine the country's faith in government that his successor could end the war and people would barely even notice. Worked to a T.

Bart DePalma said...

Any President who allows war policy to be driven py popularity polls is an incompetent fool who should be impeached.

There is only one acceptable outcome in war - victory.

There is only one acceptable war policy - whatever it takes to achieve victory.

If we tossed in the towel whenever a war was unpopular, we would have lost the Revolution, the Civil War and WWII.

masanf said...

A total moron wrote:

"But that pales in comparison to the crazy of ruling out negotiating because some soilders [you have sent there] have died."

Firstly, the number of soldiers killed by the Taliban is unknown, unless of course you can tell me which were killed by al qaeda, and which were killed by the Taliban. But the exact number was not the point anyway.

The United States is not going to start negotiating with a terror group that has killed American soldiers. No amount of political capital in the world would allow such a possibility. Who exactly would we negotiate with anyway? THEY ARE NOT A STATE ACTOR. And the United States does not negotiate with terrorists. It would be the same exact thing as negotiating with al qaeda and Osama Bin Laden. Again, because you are an obvious idiot, THEY ARE NOT A STATE ACTOR. As an example consider Hamas. The United States refuses to negotiate with them, even though their leader is a nominal head of state, sort of. The Taliban doesn't even have that cover.



"Oh, my mistake, March 2003 was when cheney/bush stopped paying attention to Afghanistan because multitasking is such a nuisance."

So, of course, that makes it OK to ignore it now. I love it when the left employs the classic "Bush did it too argument" as a "defense". Various generals didn't advise Bush to send more troops before Obama was in office, so of course that means doing so now can only spring from some nefarious political motive, right? You just admitted that Afghanistan should be taking precedence, yet when it comes time to do that, what happens? The president waffles. What a surprise. Almost as suprising as hearing the same people who wailed for years about how Afghanistan was so important instantaneously changing their minds when Obama does. It is reminiscent of the situation surrounding WWII when communists in the United States (and other countries) opposed going to war with Nazi Germany because the Soviet Union signed a non-agression pact with them. But as soon as the pact was broken, overnight they changed their minds about the war. Kind of like Code Pink did today when they realized they might have to protest against Obama.

This whole brouhaha has exposed what everyone with a brain knew all along about most of the left. Support for the Afghanistan war during the Bush presidency was not out of principle. It was entirely out of political expediency.


"His plan was to so thoroughly undermine the country's faith in government that his successor could end the war and people would barely even notice."

So Gerald Ford ended the United States involvement in the Vietnam War?


"The Taliban in and of itself are not terrorists. They've never attacked us>

Sure they are. They harbored, aided and abetted the individuals who did attack us. Exactly how much complicity needs to be in evidence before you label them what they are. And even if what you say is true, their actions since then have proven them to be terrorists. Unless of course murdering 100s of(probably much more) innocent civilians in Afghanistan, including those trying to vote, is no longer an act of terrorism in your eyes. Their acts against those who don't adhere to their tenets are well-known and well-documented. Why anyone would actually try and argue they are not terrorists is beyond me. Using your logic, Hamas is not a terrorist group because they have not attacked us either.

masanf said...

A

"lol, and one Gallup generic Congressional poll pulls them back from the brink! Whew"

One poll? There have been numerous polls from multiple polling agencies, throughout the year, either showing the Republicans ahead, or within the margin of error. There have been multiple Rasmussen and Gallup polls, an NPR poll, etc. There has not been just "one" Gallup poll. Gallup has shown the gap narrowing for months. Gallup also just showed that the approval rating for Congress is the lowest perhaps of all time. And of course, pretty much every analyst there is, including the one who runs this site, has been stating for months that the Republicans are going to pick up quite a few seats in 2010; and unemployment hasn't even hit 10% yet. When it does, watch out.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125487096440369163.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird

But, hey, let's do what your side of the aisle always seems to do when the polling data goes against them. Let's try to brush it off and then put our heads back in the sand. Or we can use the old standby of questioning the politics of the pollster, which is what you do when you are really desperate.

Seriously, it is absolutey fuc%ing hilarious to read commentary from the Ed Kilgore school of prognostication which states that it is not bad news for the Dems when their poll numbers are precipitously declining, because people hate the Republicans too. Well, if that is the case, people hate the Dems equally, at least according to a whole lot of polls coming out. It ain't just one.

shrinkers said...

What's happening now is that Obama is formulating:
1) a clear mission,
2) a strategy for achieving that mission, and
3) an exit strategy.

Once those things are defined, let's return to this topic. Until then, most of this discussion is irrelevant.

We're in Afghanistan and Pakistan to cripple al Qaeda and to get bin Laden. That's something we can can do, and we can do it in a reasonable amount of time.

This administration is too smart to get bogged down in an escalating military conflict we can't win. And once the goal is clearly articulated, the public will support it. Once it is achieved, the public will be ecstatic, and the Republicant propaganda will, once more, be revealed for being the hollow jingoistic noise it always is.

masanf said...

"Just because a general asks for more troops doesn't mean he'll "win." The President has to consider the strategy. And no strategy is homogeneous."

Give me a break. As if McChrystal, Petraeus and the others haven't devised some sort of strategy. They have, and it requires more troops to implement.

Bartbuster said...

If we tossed in the towel whenever a war was unpopular, we would have lost the Revolution, the Civil War and WWII.


WWII was unpopular with Americans? That a new one.

As for the Civil War, your side did lose that war.

Jacob said...

Not that masanf seems open to obvious points but the post you just quoted doesn't say that there is no strategy, the poster said that the strategy is not necessarily the right course just because McChrystal wants to try it.

Coming up with and overseeing the execution of military strategy is the job of military commanders. That's fine. They're doing their job. If you ask me, McChrystal shouldn't make public statements about strategy without going through the proper chain of command, but I'm sure he is still a good military strategist.

The Commander in Chief has a different job. He has to consider not only what strategies will achieve a military objective, but what they will cost and whether they are good for the nation in the long run.

I would guess that McChrystal is right that many more troops will be required for a long time in order to stabilize Afghanistan and to keep the Taliban at bay. That does not automatically mean that this is the right course of action. Thank God we finally have a President capable of considering both the benefits and detriments of escalating a war.

It makes you wonder where the wingers were when Bush was blowing off the advice of Shinseki and others in 2003.

Jacob said...

@BDP

You seem to think that "victory" in war is necessary at all costs. Fine. Tell me exactly what victory means in Afghanistan. What exactly does victory mean in Iraq? What would have to happen in these wars for you to consider them "victories" (other than a Republican declaring victory)?

Hamtree said...

"thereby infuriating the left"
while allowing Republicans to demagogue him.
Basically, the worst of both worlds."

I don't care what is the best of two political worlds.

Antietam said...

@masanf "Exactly how much complicity needs to be in evidence before you label them what they are."

You have an extremely loose and liberal definition of terrorism.

"Unless of course murdering 100s of(probably much more) innocent civilians in Afghanistan, including those trying to vote, is no longer an act of terrorism in your eyes."

Attacking civilian targets in government or participating in the government?

"Their acts against those who don't adhere to their tenets are well-known and well-documented."

Launching attacks against our troops/interests?

"Why anyone would actually try and argue they are not terrorists is beyond me."

Because if you apply loose labels then you weaken the meaning of the term; and thus they can be applied everywhere. It's just like making Nazi comparisons on silly things, thus diminishing the horror of the Nazis. It's just a bad idea.

By applying your broad definition of terrorists, then those that killed troops, blew up facilities, railways, bridges, etc, killed civilians, and so for within the French Resistance against the German forces and Vichy French government weren't "partisans" but instead "terrorists."

By applying your broad definition of terrorists, then those who killed farmers, plantation owners (hanging them from trees), destroying state property, and burning entire towns to the ground were not American Patriots fighting American Royalists in the South, they were terrorists.

Personally, I don't care to equate French Partisans and American Patriots to terrorist. When you say those in Afghanistan are fighting us (AKA German forces), and killing civilians (AKA French citizens), and destroying property (French railways), attacking government officials (Vichy French) are terrorists - no different than the ACTUAL terrorists who attacked New York, Madrid and hijack planes etc; it cheapens the totality of those acts, and draws in a lot of others we don't think of as terrorist (perhaps because they were on our side? Is that really going to be the distinction?)

Then there are the Viet Cong. Terrorists? I bet they called themselves Partisans, just as the French did. Or they called themselves Patriots.

The parameters you laid out to define "terrorists" covers just about every occupied resistance or revolutionary force in history.

Conflating al Qaeda terrorism with Taliban guerilla forces really really cheapens the distinction between localized fighting against an occupying power and puppet government with internationally flying hijacked planes into the World Trade Center or blowing up subways in London.

They're just not the same.

@Jacob

Exactly. I'm sure they have a plan. But is it the right plan?

Lincoln learned the hard way to question his generals. He gave McClellan what he wanted. He gave Burnside what he wanted. After Fredericksburg, Lincoln stopped blindly signing off on military strategy and involved himself directly into the process. Thank heavens he did.

GoldHill said...

Taliban. The name Taliban means religious scholar...thinking we can therefore wage a war against the "religious scholars" and not be seen as fomenting a holy war is ridiculous. It also hurts our image with many Muslims. We can't do it it created a civil war situation in a land we can't commit to. Therefore a military solution is unwinable, no matter how many troops you add. You can win land but not ideas. The Peace corps can win a war of ideas because all people want health, safety,education and prosperity and freedom of religion for their people and they know from experience that the Taliban will only deliver control, cruelty and oppression. Therefore in a genuinely honest war of ideas the US/NATO could absolutely undercut the Taliban by helping the people on the ground. These are achievable through peaceful means and completely unachievable through military action.

shiloh said...

Speaking of 100% total morons, BDP and masanf, thanx for sharing ...

So BDP, you do agree cheney/bush has sooo depleted and depressed America's current military, "we" should bring back the draft to relieve their situation. But on the bright side, cheney/bush, having also totally destroyed America's economy, Uncle Sam is having no trouble recruiting!

Yea, as Bartbuster says BDP, one appears to still be fighting that American Civil War you say "we" won. Really bothers you an African/American family is living in the White House, eh. A house built by slaves!

g'day

p.s. BDP and masanf, are red herring and straw man arguments the best you got? ... Really.

Antietam said...

One other point that seems to get lost...

The President is the Commander in Chief. He is the highest rank in the Armed Forces. Yet those on the Right seem to argue the he should acquiesce to his subordinates. This seems like odd logic. If the lower rank knows best, then why doesn't the 4-star acquiesce to the 3-star? The 3-star to the 2-star and so forth. I mean if you really follow that mind bogglingly stupid logic that the highest rank should never question those below, you'll get this:

Commander in Chief: "What's the strategy for Afghanistan, General?"
General: "One moment sir. Lieutenant General, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Lieutenant General: "One moment sir. Major General, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Major General: "One moment sir. Brigadier General, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Brigadier General: "One moment sir. Colonel, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Colonel: "One moment sir. Lt. Colonel, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Lt. Colonel: "One moment sir. Major, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Major: "One moment sir. Captain, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Captain: "One moment sir. First Lieutenant, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
First Lieutenant: "One moment sir. Second Lieutenant, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Second Lieutenant: "One moment sir. Sergeant Major, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Sergeant Major of the Army: "One moment sir. Command Sergeant Major, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Command Sergeant Major: "One moment Sergeant Major of the Army. Sergeant Major, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Sergeant Major: "One moment Command Sergeant Major. First Sergeant, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
First Sergeant: "One moment Sergeant Major. Master Sergeant, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Master Sergeant: "One moment First Sergeant. Sergeant First Class, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Sergeant First Class: "One moment Master Sergeant. Staff Sergeant, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Staff Sergeant: "One moment Sergeant First Class. Sergeant, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Sergeant: "One moment Staff Sergeant. Corporal, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Corporal: "One moment Sergeant. Private First Class, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Private First Class: "One moment Corporal. Private, what's the strategy for Afghanistan?"
Private: "I like boobs!" (crushes beer can on forehead)

General: "Mr. President, the strategy for Afghanistan is boobs."
Commander in Chief: "What does the Navy say?"

So why do conservatives argue that the highest rank shouldn't question the lower ones? How would you like to be lead by someone that knows only acquiescence and deferment?

Answer me this, I beg thee...

shrinkers said...

There are reasons the Constitution puts a civilian (the President) into the role of military commander-in-chief. It is partly because the proper conduct of a war is not something that should be left in the hands of generals.

Afghanistan is the place that empires go to die. Pursuing a totally military strategy there is the wrong course - it is insane and it is useless. I'm very glad our current President is too smart to blindly follow the advice of McChrystal - or of any general.

And by the way, why weren't the conservatives of today screaming about Bush's decision to withdraw from Afghanistan, if it is so necessary to "win" there?

In point of fact, it is neither necessary nor possible to "win" in Afghanistan. All that is needed is to capture the criminal who killed so many people in the 2001 terrorist attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon, and to cripple his organization. Then, we should get out.

According to media reports, intelligence has it that bin Laden has relocated to the border regions with Pakistan. (These are, as I said, "media reports". I'm quite certain the intelligence community knows more about it than we do.) Since we already have a presence in neighboring Afghanistan, it is a perfect place to base the operations to deal with bin Laden, regardless of his location. We need no more troops
there than is necessary to accomplish that mission.

The right wingnuts will criticize Obama in any case. If he withdraws troops, they'll claim he should have stayed to "win" the war, and that he's "soft on terrorists". If he escalates - and, as in inevitable, we get mired down - they'll claim he didn't prosecute the war correctly. They think they'll win either way - because they care only for the next election cycle, not for the lives of American troops or the nuances of world realities. One might question whether the right wing actually likes America.

So what Obama should do - and what, I'm confident, he will do - is to formulate a strategy that will deal with our actual mission there - which is to capture or kill bin Laden, and to cripple his organization.

Anything else - and all this absurd clamor, and all the arm-waving "predictions" of the fruitcake right wing - is just background noise.

Harper said...

I voted for Obama and will be voting for a 3rd party if he decides to send more troops to Afghanistan.

Vietnam was wrong, Iraq was wrong and a 15+ year war in Afghanistan is wrong. I thought that Obama was going to consider the big picture here. The USA is still an imperialist state that keeps playing with the rest of the world as if they are children. Is it so hard to see why they resent us? We control them.

shiloh said...

American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

American soldiers serving in Afghanistan are depressed and deeply disillusioned, according to the chaplains of two US battalions that have spent nine months on the front line in the war against the Taleban.

Many feel that they are risking their lives — and that colleagues have died — for a futile mission and an Afghan population that does nothing to help them, the chaplains told The Times in their makeshift chapel on this fortress-like base in a dusty, brown valley southwest of Kabul.

“The many soldiers who come to see us have a sense of futility and anger about being here. They are really in a state of depression and despair and just want to get back to their families,” said Captain Jeff Masengale, of the 10th Mountain Division’s 2-87 Infantry Battalion.

“We’re lost — that’s how I feel. I’m not exactly sure why we’re here,” said Specialist Raquime Mercer, 20, whose closest friend was shot dead by a renegade Afghan policeman last Friday. “I need a clear-cut purpose if I’m going to get hurt out here or if I’m going to die.”


Indeed, time to call it a day and bring the beleaguered, depressed, over-deployed troops home as the Pentagon is once again clueless re: Guerrilla warfare. And as always the Afghanis don't like outsiders occupying their country, go figure! Who knew?

hmm, let's ask (5) time Vietnam draft deferment cheney what to do next. OK, elizabeth is now the go to cheney re: national security/foreign affairs. ;)

Dwight said...

The United States is not going to start negotiating with a terror group that has killed American soldiers.

Well hopefully someone sane is in charge and it will happen because:
1) As pointed out about the Taliban aren't "terrorists" outside of bizzaro world propaganda.
2) That's how wars end. Unless you are some sort of psychopath that intends to shoot everyone, hell or high water.
3) The purpose of war, assuming you aren't the above psychopath, is to either take what you want by force or convince someone that wasn't willing to negotiate to now negotiate [on terms acceptable to you].

The World: Turn over Bin Laden and the rest of al Qeada.
Taliban: Our country, our rules. F*ck off.
The World: Turn him over or we'll kick in your door and take him.
Taliban: No.
The World kicks in the front door, makes it partially their country. Bin Laden and some of al Qeada runs out the back door.
Taliban wants to keep the country, fights back.

People die, including a small number of the invading soilders. That's sad, those are real people. But if you don't keep perspective you'll end up in a war that never ends, like some huge Hatfield & McCoy feud. Or other very screwed up regions of the world.

P.S. But the exact number was not the point anyway. Oh, I think it WAS the point of your post. Some chest thumping, emotional half-truth that is just a whole lot of CRAZY that leads to a whole lot more deaths.

John said...

I have asked this question 100's of times in 7 years and still never gotten an answer, what is victory in a war on foreign grounds like this?

Dwight said...

I have asked this question 100's of times in 7 years and still never gotten an answer, what is victory in a war on foreign grounds like this?

Whatever you showed up for.

If you didn't get an answer from anyone on Afganistan it's because people have forgotten that the goal was to neuter al Qaeda. Bonus points for aprehending or killing Bin Laden, but primarily it was to highly reduce their ability to operate cohesively for the foreseeable future.

David said...

John sez, "what is victory in a war on foreign grounds like this?"

Historically it has been to assemble a large brutal army beholden only to a single, even more brutal dictator who allies himself with us in exchange for weapons.

Had we not foolishly turned Saddam over to the Iraqis, he'd be alive today, rested and ready.

shrinkers said...

@John
I have asked this question 100's of times in 7 years and still never gotten an answer, what is victory in a war on foreign grounds like this?

Clearly, no conservative who is screaming for "Victory at any cost!" actually knows the answer to that.

One definition - something that would not be possible and will not happen - is the creation of a peaceful, stable, pro-American democracy, with all the anti-Americans dead or converted to our way of thinking.

That won't happen. And it most certainly will not happen with a military-only plan like McChrystal's.

This is why a clear definition of the mission has to be made. Bush never made one - not for Afghanistan, not for Iraq, and not for his completely imaginary paranoid "War on Terror".

Once the President formulates a clear mission objective, then we'll have a definition of what "victory" would look like. Until then, any discussion of getting out, doubling down, winning, losing, the effects on the election a year from now - all that is utter futility.

Seb said...

There can be no military victory in Afghanistan, primarily because we are not fighting a conventional army. We can't just hope to bomb the crap out of them until either they're all dead or they surrender. If there is a solution to this mess it is going to be political.
One way out of this would be to tie up two failed wars, the war on terror and the war on drugs. The mujahadeen (taliban) only managed to defeat the soviets, bankrupting the USSR in the process and leading to the breakup of the eastern block, because they were backed by a billion dollars in US military aid. They do not have a sponsor this time (Iran isn't pulling the purse strings). Instead they are relying on the heroin trade. The majority of the warlords are not in this for idealogical reasons, it's about the money. If we end our failed policy of worldwide drug prohibition and instead seek to control it we would deprive the warlords, and multiple criminal organizations worldwide, of their revenue stream. Diverting a tiny proportion of the drug enforcement budget to treatment at home and bribing the Afghan's to stop shooting us would work. No more FARC in Columbia, Mexican drug barons, locking up a large number of our own citizens for ingesting substances in their own bodies. It's not like prohibition works in terms of preventing people from taking drugs, just ask the guy sitting in the big chair in the White House

Brislor said...

Check out this conversation: Do you have "Buyer's Remorse" for Voting for Obama? Does the Nation? – What do you think? http://budurl.com/obamavote

Brislor said...

Check out this conversation: Iran opens Nuclear sites for inspection... Obama Succeeds Again? – What do you think? http://budurl.com/obamairan

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