10.21.2009

The Issue That Could Fracture Both Right and Left

It's becoming increasingly likely that regulation of the banking and financial sector is liable to be the issue that dominates the first half of 2010. Why? Well in the first place, it's badly needed -- there is fairly broad consensus among economists and regulators that there is still very profound systemic risk in the banking industry.

In the second place, it's not clear what else the Obama administration will do on the domestic policy front, once the health care issue gets resolved. Although the unpopularity of the cap-and-trade program is greatly exaggerated -- most polls in fact show it receiving a plurality or narrow majority of support -- the swing districts in 2010 tend to be big carbon emitters. Immigration reform, likewise, is liable to be a less favorable issue for the Democrats in 2010 than it will be in 2012, when we'll have a younger, more diverse electorate in which Hispanics play a larger role as swing voters. EFCA -- the White House's support for which has always been questionable -- almost certainly isn't going anywhere. Movement on gay rights issues is a possibility, but is more dependent on the White House's willpower than its bandwidth. A second omnibus stimulus bill is probably out of the question, although certainly there will be piecemeal efforts -- extended unemployment benefits, greater investments in transportation infrastructure -- that the White House will pursue. Still, for a hard-working White House, that leaves plenty of time on the table for a big-ticket item, and that item will probably be banking reform.

What's fascinating about this issue is how unevenly it breaks down along traditional political lines. The roll calls on the TARP bills that the Congress passed last year were among the strangest in the history of the institution, with divisions between leadership and rank-and-file, between service-sector states and manufacturing states, and between swing districts and safe districts -- all of which played a larger role than one's partisan affiliation.

From a 30,000-foot view, the debate will be between the Volckerists and the Summersists, with the Volckerists arguing that large financial institutions need to be broken up -- probably through something resembling a modern Glass-Steagall Act -- and the Summersists arguing instead for more extensive regulations.

The 'hard', online left will almost certainly take the Volckerist position. In fact, I expect this to be the "public option" of 2010, the badge of pride that "movement progressives" will use to distinguish themselves from "kleptocrats". Like the public option, the Volckerist position ("break up the banks") is easy and intuitive to understand. Also as in the case of the public option, I suspect the Volckerists will ultimately have the preponderance of polling evidence to show in their favor (although no polling has yet been conducted on the issue). In contrast to the public option, opinion among policy wonks is likely to be a little bit more evenly divided -- see for example the difference of opinion between Yves Smith and Simon Johnson, neither of whom have any inherent sympathy whatsoever for the banks.

How the right will respond is less predictable, but this may become the issue that tests whether the "tea party" movement is ultimately more libertarian or populist in character. While on the one hand, the zeitgeist within the movement is to bemoan any government intervention in the economy, on the other hand, much of the impetus for the movement was the bailout bill and the deference that both the Obama and Bush administrations have shown toward Wall Street. I really don't know how they'll come down on this issue (initially, perhaps, they'll take whatever position that the White House doesn't), but it could be a defining one for the movement.

Ultimately, I think there is more political upside than downside for the White House here, although there is plenty of both. I don't think the Republican Party as a whole can afford to take an anti-regulation stance. If they're afraid of handing Obama a bipartisan victory on the eve of the elections, they may simply argue that whatever type of regulation the Administration wants to do is the wrong kind. But without any agenda-setting powers, it's easy to envision them getting outmaneuvered. Meanwhile, the progressive left is likely to have a more specific viewpoint about what type of regulation is the right kind (Volckerist) and may drive the conversation on the issue, whereas the White House is liable to be reluctant to get engaged in a debate about details. Buckle your seatbelts -- it's going to be a bumpy ride.

70 comments

Jake said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Jake said...

I expect that the far right (including Sarah Palin) will actually argue for LESS regulations. Speaking of the former Governor of our largest State, we are anxiously awaiting your post about that wager with Tom ; )

Rudy said...

It would be nice to finally see an Obama agenda item that isn't hostile to economic growth and natural job creation. Such an agenda item could even pick up broad bipartisan support.

I doubt they've contemplated such an animal yet. And they have a full laundry list yet of minor agenda items that would pick up little support from people who support economic growth.

Next year's economy is on them, and more of the same is just going to heighten the discomfort and frustration among those who need jobs and income growth.

DynamicUno said...

Financial regulation, played correctly, is the centrifuge issue that Congressional Democrats can use to separate the Republican party into its constituent parts.

Pitting the rabid populist teabaggers against the corporatists is going to be a fireworks display to remember.

Pat said...

You honestly think they're gonna argue to break up the largest banks? Is there any authority for this? Sure, Bank of America is large, but it's hardly a monopoly like AT&T was. And plenty of small banks have been failing as well, and made bad buisiness decisions...

Dwight said...

Jake said...

I expect that the far right (including Sarah Palin) will actually argue for LESS regulations.


... while alternating that platitude with the other platitude that "something must be done", without really addressing the magical pixie dust that will accompish this.

Really, it'll just be a bitching session that will be, as Nate puts it, "take whatever position that the White House doesn't".

Meanwhile Ron Paul will the only one of the "far right" being even remotely intellectually consistant (as long as he doesn't talk too much about Constitutional law) as he makes talkinghead appearance after appearance on TV imploring pouring gasoline on the whole thing and light it up.

Strange times.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Nate, I think you're overlooking Energy reform; ie expanding and modernizing the energy grid to account for solar fields, wind farms and individuals interested in creating their own energy and selling it back to the energy providers. This, along with financial reform, of which they promised would begin to take place after the bleeding stopped, will be one of the more vicious fights in the U.S., especially when you consider some of the big players; API and Kock Industries, who's been backing FreedomWorks.

yoink said...

FWIW, Alan Greenspan is making the case that the Govt. should step in and break up the largest banks. That gives the Dems a certain kind of cover on the right.

EmonOkari said...

Jobs. Jobs. Jobs. Now THAT is a big-ticket item we can ALL rally around. I wanna hear more about how the administration plans to address the jobs problem...or if they just plan to keep sitting on their hands and let the 'market fix it'.

Dwight said...

@Pat

The reason the big ones didn't fail is TARP, etal. Their size held the economy hostage, government wasn't willing to let them go down because. For the system to be viable and still allow the biggest companies fail the biggest players need to be smaller.

AIG was absolutely friggin' massive, still is really. It's percentage and absolute size in the insurance sectors it covers are scary.

Citibank, too, is a longtime "problem child" that's really big and at the center of so much action that it going down is almost certain to bring a huge cascade with it.

Jacob said...

Regardless of the outcome, it would be helpful if the WH, progressives, and moderate/establishment Dems laid out financial reform in the Volckerist/Summersist manner that Nate assumes.

Imagine if HC had been framed like this: Should we undo the patchwork system and institute Single Payer, or work within the system and create something like a Public Option? If the GOP plans (essentially doing nothing) weren't on the table, we might be negotiating on a much better bill now.

By making the issue a distinction between radical reform and moderate reform, it could suck the wind out of the anti-refrom crowd, and moderates (not left-right moderates but incrementalists) of all stripes would be clamoring for some sort of meaningful reform.

Geoff Johnson said...

Surely this will be an issue, and I think it might well play out as you suggest, but I don't think banking reform is ever going to be able to "dominate" the first half of next year. It just isn't sexy enough, and it's too confusing and seemingly esoteric for most people. Health care is an issue that hits people where they live, and most Americans have extremely strong feelings about the environment and climate change. Despite all the anger over the bailouts, I don't think banking reform will create as much of a stir.

And I think you're wrong to toss cap-and-trade to the side. Presumably that won't be passed by December, at which point we have the huge climate summit that will get tons of coverage (health care reform will probably be over and done with, or close to it, by then). I would expect he climate change/cap and trade issue to stay on the agenda for awhile after that, and to be linked up with energy reform (which poster liberal defender of freedom rightly mentions) which is another hot button issue. I think banking reform will be much discussed and might play very well for the Democrats but it will still be a second tier issue for the public and the media in 2010, rightly or wrongly.

Also I would expect Obama to do something with don't-ask-don't-tell at some point next year, and that will suck up a lot of oxygen for awhile, but given the popularity of a repeal of DADT and its potential to make conservatives say horribly stupid things, I don't think the Obama team will have a problem with that. Immigration reform has definitely been pushed down the road at this point, and I'd be surprised to see any serious work on it prior to the midterms.

Juris said...

Nate: I think you're right that the Teabaggers will be forced to choose between two things they don't like: big governmnet or Wall Street bankers.

Right now, because the teabaggers have largely been harnessed by the economic right to rail against Obama and socialism (and bailouts and buyouts), they haven't had to choose between the government and the bankers. But if I were manipulating the teabaggers, I might appeal, among other things, to their antisemitism ("Aren't there a whole lotta Jews running Goldman Sachs? And look how they're screwing the people!").

Just using the code-word "New Yorker" may be enough to stimulate the wrath of the street against the bankers.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not proposing such an approach, least of all by the Obama administration, which could hardly do that. But I wouldn't be surprised if an undercurrent of "anti-NewYorker" sentiment gives a lot of Congressmen from conservative states cover to support fundamental reform of some kind -- whether Summerist or Volckerist.

Pat said...

@ Dwight,

TARP helped avoid a bank run, and the ensuring chaos. But bank runs have happened before, many, many, times in US history, especially when the banks are small. If anything, larger banks offer some stability, with the ability to buy up smaller, collapsing banks.

As for AIG, AIG was nailed primarily due to the lack of regulation of a new, emerging, market: Insuring bonds and securities. (note, not deregulation...the regulations never existed). No one thought "Mortgage backed securities" would ever lose value...so nowhere NEARLY enough was held in reserve in case they failed. What happened to AIG, could just have as easily happened to 3,4,6 different smaller companies.

Clear and new insurance regulations are necessary in this field, ensuring adequate reserves for insuring bonds and securities.

Dwight said...

>> What happened to AIG, could just have as easily happened to 3,4,6 different smaller companies.

Sure. But it's the shock of a huge, single hit that creates significant risks of very far reaching propigation.

So they'd all have to fail at near the same time to the same extent. Which is unlikely because it would imply very similar corp structure taking the very same risks. Which weren't nearly as widespread as you seem to believe. There were plenty of execs that realized just how fubar things were going to get and either never got their companies into it or pulled out in time.

Here's the thing, it wasn't AIG's insurrance that got them into problems. It was their "I Can't Believe It's Not Insurrance" that blew them up. It was their size, as the size tied the insurrance business to the hedgefund-that-isn't-hedging unit.

Citibank is problematic for the similar reasons but you can through being a truely international entity on top of that. They are a cluster of extremely interconnected entities that exist under a large number of different governments. A international law/corp lawyer could spend their entire career on the single case of trying to sort out a cluster bang like that.

GROG said...

Dwight:

Really, it'll just be a bitching session that will be, as Nate puts it, "take whatever position that the White House doesn't".

If the White House ever has a position that doesn't kill job creation or doesn't continue to balloon the deficit or doesn't force us towards a socialized government, the GOP just may support it. All we see from this administration is "more of the same".

Bradford said...

I think banking regulation is wayyyy too boring and complex to make people care. Unlikely to matter at all, much less lead to a party split.

hurricanexyz said...

The fun part is, of course, that here's where you have the fundamental disconnect within the party. Yes, the actual electorate slice that is the Republicans strongly dislikes governments and regulation and all that, and also strongly dislikes banks. Which one do they hate more? It's unclear.

What is clear, however, is how the party leadership thinks, which is basically the only thing the Republican Party has ever stood for: it's pro-business, all the time, especially when the business in question is big. So we will probably have a lot of GOP leaders who would really like to get their base fired up against financial reform. They might even try to do so, perceiving the government as more unpopular than the banks. But I doubt that the "government < banks" paradigm will hold very far outside of, maybe, 30% of the electorate, if they're lucky, and it's probably a close call if they can pull it off even within their base.

In other words, Republicans might be in a tricky position: either just haggle with Obama over the details, but basically endorse the spirit of regulation and, so some might see it, sell the soul of the party; or virulently oppose Obama, fire up the base, stay true to their loyalties, and give back to the Democrats the bonus of being unequivocally the anti-bank party once again.

For a liberal partisan, this should be good...

I can't resist, the word verification is just too good: unmor = what the Republicans will be this time next year!

Dwight said...

@GROG

I believe the discussion was about the "far right". The portion of the GOP that couldn't for the life of them tell spell out the differences between socialism, fascism, and an icecream sundae.

Which I guess you are a member of? :P

mbodell said...

When even Alan Greenspan is saying "if you are too big to fail, you are too big", and when that is such a straightforward argument I think it is hard to not take the point that large banks need to be broken up (or regulated so tightly they are effectively broken up).

I think that the anger over the near record bonuses at Goldman might help push this issue further too.

But there are other issues that may dominate the Obama administration including the continued slow failure of Afghanistan and the (possible) continued down turn or double dip recession. I mean the stock market is up, but jobs aren't. And the housing market is still scary in terms of the number of homes underwater, in foreclosure processing, or otherwise a big problem. And banks are way, way, way behind on following through on foreclosures, but with more and more people losing homes and jobs the economy might be issues 1, 2, and 3 for the future.

Bradford said...

Everyone is for splitting up the giant banks, on all sides, they make the Glenn Beck crazies paranoid, and the lefties inherently hate them for their money and power. LEts stop these guys and move on.

Columbia said...

There is also a division along class lines. Upper class more of the Summers position (but the less regulation the better). Middle and Lower classes would favor the Volcker position. Another reason why there is such a weird breakdown in Congress that is not along party lines between those that have been bought and paid for by special interests and those who have a more populist bent.

Persuter said...

If the White House ever has a position that doesn't kill job creation or doesn't continue to balloon the deficit or doesn't force us towards a socialized government, the GOP just may support it. All we see from this administration is "more of the same".

lol, given that Bush has both the record in debt-creation and job loss, I can certainly see why it's "more of the same" to you.

marc said...

I found your argument interesting and repeated it to my wife. She said the Teabaggers wouldn't support breaking up the large banks because they will believe anything that Fox news tells them.

You might think about finding some data to support their differing from the faux populist to any real issue.

Obliterati said...

You "really don't know how the teabaggers will come down on this issue"?

Are you fcuking serious?

The teabaggers will take the opposite position that the White House takes, whatever that may be. No matter what Obama does or says or proposes, the teabaggers will oppose it, with great enthusiasm. It's a mortal lock - the safest bet in the history of the universe.

I am astounded that you would hedge on this. And your implication that the tea-party movement has even the slightest shred of integrity is, frankly, the most preposterous thing I have ever read on this site.

What the hell are you smoking? And where can I get some?

Brian Jenkins said...

Columbia hits on the reason why I find this analysis unconvincing- how many "lower class" congressmen are there? Not a lot.

There is just too much money from Goldman Sacha, JP Morgan, and the other banks sloshing in Congressional coffers, especially on the Democratic side, for them to contemplate breaking up the "big banks." Forcing the Republicans to choose between the populists and their corporate supporters would require Democrats to make the same choice. That's not something they'll do if they have any other options... and they do, since they have the majority and control the Congressional agenda. Look for some modest regulatory patching around the edges but no major legislation.

So what will they debate in 2010? Well, major initiatives are pretty uncommon on election years. You might see some immigration reform issues; with illegal immigration now at its lowest level in decades, people just might be willing to talk sense.

An awful lot depends on events. Big GOP victories on November 3 probably make major initiatives unlikely (and kill the public option/ nationalization schemes in health care), while Democratic wins increase their chances. A cold winter, as seems likely, kicks global warming alarmism to the curb. And of course, there'll probably be some foreign crisis to respond to, as well as rising unemployment and deficits here.

It's an interesting analysis, Nate, and it has merit, but I don't agree with it.

Bradford said...

Could this split the repubs? Really? It is more amazing the second time, without the heat of the election, watch and be amazed!

Palin on the Bush doctrine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oMaZhGvmkI

And finally, the Couric interview that started it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxAO7cH-xrE

I SURE HOPE SHE RUNS!!!!!!

Blitzkrieg Bill said...

Commenters have been right to wave off Nate's speculations about the tea partiers. I have no doubt that Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh will say that existing government regulations were entirely to blame for the meltdown, and "MORE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION," and, like clockwork, the tea partiers will begin chanting along in unison.

@Brian Jenkins:
There are definitely not a a lot of lower-class congressmen, it's true. But the house Dem caucus includes many strong populists who would be happy to break up the banks: I'm thinking of Maxine Waters, Pete Stark, Lynn Woolsey, Barbara Lee, John Conyers, and others. Any of the house Dems who voted against the bailout the first time could probably be counted on to be open to a Volckerist stance. The question is whether they would weather the Summersist pressure from Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank.

Brian Jenkins said...

Blitzkrieg Bill, if you cannot count on the votes of reliable liberals like Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi, and I think your analysis there is correct, how can major action possibly occur?

There were only 95 Democratic votes against the TARP on 9/29/08. I have no idea how you get from 95 to 218 without the help of the House leadership.

(Vote: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml)

Most of the votes against TARP on 9/29/08 were from Republicans. Something tells me that Pelosi isn't exactly eager to see what they come up with, and that they're not going to reach out to the Democrats. No, financial regulation will not be a centerpiece of Congressional action in 2010.

priscianus jr said...

Commenters who think that bank regulation isn't a "sexy" issue are missing the point. The issue is not in the wonky details, which will be worked out by the wonks and eventually explained by great communicators such as the President. The issue is that the big banks screwed (and continue to screw) this country royally, they need to be cut down to a size where they can't do that kind of damage any more, and of course the banksters absolutely hate the idea of regulation. Anything the banksters really hate will be massively popular with 90% of the American public.

GROG said...

Blitzkrieg Bill said:

"MORE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION," and, like clockwork, the tea partiers will begin chanting along in unison.

This insinuation that Hannity,Beck and Fox News created conservatism is laughable. Conservative commentators follow conservatives, not the other way around. The founding fathers founded this country based on "MORE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION". It's not something that Fox News has just made up to create a following.

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

Precisely what regulations do you suggest the Dems can propose upon which they will ride to victory or at least a less severe drubbing in 2010?

The GOP has a rather effective riposte to handing the government even more control over the home mortgage market - Fed and HUD regulations compelling banks to reduce home mortgage underwriting standards caused the mortgage mess in the first instance, thus, giving them more power would not exactly be smart.

Hoover Institution research fellow, Peter Schweizer, has just published a book entitled Architects of Ruin, that describes in detail how the government gutted underwriting standards and the folks who defaulted overwhelmingly are non-creditworthy.

Indeed, the GOP might want to consider proactively campaigning on this issue in 2010 because the Dems are neck deep in this mess.

PlatoX32X said...

A bit ad hominem to dub the Volckerist position 'the badge of pride that "movement progressives" will use to distinguish themselves from "kleptocrats" '. I gather you don't agree with it, but do you really need to introduce via a series of insults, particularly given the reasonably large percentage of your readers who endorse the Volckerist position? That's just a style issue; on content, plenty of people on the left defend the position on substantive grounds. Is the unwonkish majority any more ignorant in this issue than they are on the equally complex issues of healthcare, or anti-insurgent strategies in the middle east?

mikelow1885 said...

Healthcare will be the dominant issue in the first half of next year. Nothing will pass until at least June. The process is too slow.

Has there been a Senate leader more incompetent than Harry Reid?

GbThrone said...

Any one else see the AP report that the administration is making noise about cutting senior executive pay at "bailed out" firms by a mere 90%?
Talk about staking out a populist position!

harold said...

GROG -

I'm forced to reply here.

If the White House ever has a position that doesn't kill job creation or doesn't continue to balloon the deficit or doesn't force us towards a socialized government, the GOP just may support it.

If you seriously believed that, you'd be one of the guys who got stopped trying to set up toll booths the day after they "bought" the Brooklyn Bridge. (*Yes, there were several such guys*.)

This insinuation that Hannity,Beck and Fox News created conservatism is laughable.

I don't think anyone insinuated that.

Conservative commentators follow conservatives, not the other way around.

This is a false dichotomy.

It's an interaction. The commentators feed their audience what the audience wants, but they also give the audience marching orders on new issues, feed them "talking points", and stir them up.

The founding fathers founded this country based on "MORE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION".

No, they did not.

Neither that exact phrase, nor any non-specific anti-government sentiments, can be found in either the Declaration of Independence, or the Constitution.

The Declaration if Independence contains language complaining about the specific actions of the British government under George III, all of which, I might note, are actions that modern liberals would equally oppose.

The Constitution sets up a government, and although it guarantees certain rights, something liberals support, it does not include any suggestion that the government should be arbitrarily limited.

Robert said...

The Declaration if Independence contains language complaining about the specific actions of the British government under George III, all of which, I might note, are actions that modern liberals would equally oppose.

I just want to add to this, that the basic complaint with the governmental system which they rebelled against, was taxation without representation. If George had saw fit to increase his government enough to allow the colonies to have the representation they desired, things most likely would have happened differently. Thus, it's not unreasonable to argue that the founding fathers would have found "more government" (as in the inclusion of their representatives with what already existed) to be a perfectly acceptable answer.

So no, this country is not remotely based on "more government is not the solution", but rather "the right amount of government is the solution". It's not a question of what size the government should be, but rather what the government can do better than the private sector. Different tasks play to different strengths.

Juris said...

Hey all. Try this "World's Smallest Political Quiz". It's very simple but pretty clever, and takes only 2 minutes.

I scored 70, 20. I guess I'm a liberal.

shrinkers said...

Very cool and fun, Juris!

I'm 100, 30.

mcc said...

I dunno. It seems like the Volcker vs Summers / revenge on the banks thing basically got an airing earlier this year, with the whole "YOU WILL NATIONALIZE THE BANKS NOW OR ELSE" thing, and it failed to really ignite either the nation or the left in any way near the way you're suggesting. I'm quite sure basically everyone on the left did (and will) support in principle doing something drastic or nasty to the banks, but aside from a small clique of bloggers who decided to adopt the issue we did not really see anything like the depth of passion or breadth of involvement that we're seeing with, say, the public option. It seems like if the specific question of destroy-the-banks vs regulate-the-banks were going to become the most important issue in the world to the left it would have already done so.
Agree that watching the tea partiers try to decide which of their contradictory impulses to follow on this is going to be fascinating to watch.

slasher14 said...

What is likely to drive the issue right into the forefront is the failure of a major bank -- BOA and Citi are likely candidates. The big banks aren't lending money -- that's one reason the recovery is moving so slowly. The
"profits" they've been reporting are bogus -- the product of the rising stock market plus a lot of new fees. Meanwhile, the rate of loan defaults is rising. One of them will announce, sometime in 2010, that they need another bailout or "we'll have to go out of business."

At that point, there is really only one politically acceptable course of action and that is nationalization. A bailout is impossible -- BOTH the left and the right would oppose it. "Let it go belly up" sounds good but we all remember what happened when Paulson et al said that about Lehman, and in case we've forgotten, the stock market will be sure to remind us.

At that point, Obama HIMSELF (not some official who has ties to the markets, which they all do) would have to go on TV and explain that although he favors the free markets and the private sector, in this instance the private sector is admitting that it has failed, and rather than dump the entire mess into the bankruptcy courts, the government is going to take over the bank, manage it through the crisis, get it lending again, and then sell it back to the private sector, probably at a profit. This will require that the government sink more money into the bank, but the money will be managed by the public for the public good, not by bankers for private interests. He will point out that the alternative is to let the bank fail, and the stock market will give him cover on that score by dropping to around 7,000.


He probably should have done this in January, but the problem has always been that he got elected too soon. The economy was flat on its back in January, but the memories of "prosperity" were less than a year or two old, and the real crisis only a few months old. When FDR took office in 1933 the Depression had been running for three years plus, and when he immediately began to push the banks around in a serious fashion, nobody objected. Today, however, morons on the right can try to pretend that everything would have been fine if only McCain had won and done nothing.

The left won't have any problem with this, and the right will be hard pressed to make a LOGICAL argument against it, since it will clearly be a crisis situation and "do nothing" will be an option that few will endorse. Frankly, I HOPE the teabaggers go crazy, because it will pull Republican candidates to the "do nothing" position all the more, and leave independent voters with a choice between a government that is at least TRYING to stanch the bleeding and one that somehow seems to think that the bleeding is good for us.

Bozo said...

Just for the record, what the heck IS a libertarian position on this issue?
From what I've seen, the libertarians basically say "if a bank goes belly up, let it fail no matter how big it is. Consequences be damned." So I _guess_ the libertarian position would be the breakup of the large national banks so that no one institution would be seen as "too big to fail" by the body politic.

A general tightening of regulations of the financial industry could be seen as a more "populist" approach,
but either of these options involves more government regulation of the financial sector.
And frankly, I think the idea of breaking up the power centers of the financial industry into smaller regional entities has a populist appeal as well.

Jamison said...

@GROG: actually, my dear GROG, the Founding Fathers called the Constitutional Convention because the old Articles of Confederation were so ineffectual as a basis for governance that the nascent United States were at risk of becoming a Libertarian Paradise (AKA Somalia). So, basically, more government WAS the solution, not the problem. Revisionism isn't pretty, friend, even when practiced by conservatives.

Anyhow, the tension between the rightist populists and the capitalists who actually run the GOP will be the real story. If the race in NY-23 and the Senate race in FL are any indication, the latter has little control over the former.

The simple solution for both parties of course would be to pick one or two of the more notorious banks and break them up. Give the masses a public beheading. I nominate Goldman-Sachs. Even the other banks don't like Goldman-Sachs. Its about as popular as Standard Oil or IG Farben, and ought to share their fate.

Brian said...

90, 60. Libertarian. The questions were biased, though, and there's no foreign policy.

Dog Knows said...


Video: President Obama announces new lending initiatives that will help small businesses have more access to credit during a visit to Metropolitan Archives in Landover, MD. October 21, 2009.

Silly as it Seems . . .

~DK~

Peter Wolf said...

the worlds smallest political quiz: 90, 10. Very much a liberal it seems!

Mr. Universe said...

80 50.

I'm right on the boundary of liberal, centrist, and libertarian. Go figure. Would that make me a good politician?

This little quiz is like one of those Facebook 'which Star Trek character are you?' quizzes. Which makes sense as I always turn out to be Mr. Spock.

GROG said...

Harold, Robert, Jamison:

The notion that the founding fathers did not favor a small central government is plain wrong.

The delegates of the Constitutional Convention had the overriding objective to keep the states strong and the federal government very weak. You see this in some of the most important themes in the US Constitution. These same themes are among those that the left and the media are most hostile towards.

From the Electoral College to the Bicameral legislature to the Nature of the US Senate, they wanted the power in the hands of the states. Not in the power of a large federal governmet like we see today.

The founding fathers knew that freedom was found closer to home and not from an increasingly assertive federal government.

Robert said...

"The notion that the founding fathers did not favor a small central government is plain wrong."

The notion that the founding fathers believed "more government is not the solution" is also plaing wrong.

The articles of confederation were abandoned in favor of the constitution, precisely because the federal government did not have enough power, and the loose confederation of states was inneffective as a government. The solution, literally, was more government.

Did they believe in a balance of power and a protection of the minority? Of course, and that's where the things you point out come into play. But your suggestion that the basic principle on which this country was founded was "more government is not the solution" is absolutely laughable to anyone who paid attention to history.

What was the problem with George's government? There wasn't enough to adequately represent the colonies. What was the problem with the AoC? Not enough federal control to bind the states together. Without binding the states together, there would be no United in the United States, we would still be a loose confederation with an ineffectual federal government that couldn't ever function as a greater whole.

Beyond that, the notion that the founding fathers even had a consensus on the matter is patently ridiculous. Some believed very strongly in federal power (John Adams, for example), and some believed equally strongly in states' rights (I believe Jefferson is an example of one). The point is that they understood that what was necessary was a compromise in favor of the greater good. In other words, its not an assertion of "less" or "more" that allowed for success, but rather "let's find the right amount". AoC was not the right amount, but the Constitution was.

Dwight said...

Bozo said...

Just for the record, what the heck IS a libertarian position on this issue?


I believe it is roughly "Raze the whole system to the ground."

slasher14

At that point, there is really only one politically acceptable course of action and that is nationalization.


Temporary nationalization is how all bank closures are handle, have been for 70 years. Of course Citi, and to some extent BoA, would be much messier and probably take [much] longer than what we've seen. The FDIC, the agency tasked with taking over the banks, selling off the assets, and dealing with the bank's creditors, unfortunately is near tapped out right now.

A further problem is that, especially with Citi, the FDIC covered bank isn't even the majority of the conglomerate. Which means the scope will have to change, that's what has already been talked about new regulation legislation including. So in a sense Citi, and of course AIG which was done adhoc since it wasn't FDIC covered at all, has already pushed this to the forefront of the issue. The big blow-up that should have been what was required to git 'er done has already happened. What was it, about 200 Billion, to float AIG.

JW said...

As usual, an insightful post. Just a question about EFCA, though. You say it's not going anywhere. Last I heard, Dems had worked out some compromises and it looked likely to pass, although without card check. It's just waiting for health care to wrap up. Did something change when I wasn't looking?

Jacob said...

@JW

Yeah, it's possible that a watered-down EFCA could pass, but it would basically just change standards for contract arbitration.

EFCA without card check is kinda like a HC bill without a public option or subsidies. It's not bad but it wouldn't really solve the problem.

Tyranasour said...

The teabaggers will take the opposite position that the White House takes, whatever that may be. No matter what Obama does or says or proposes, the teabaggers will oppose it, with great enthusiasm. It's a mortal lock - the safest bet in the history of the universe.


Yes. With the added point that they move to where Fox News puts them. It's top down on policy positions, bottom up on distrusting/hating Obama.

Bart DePalma said...

Bozo said...

Just for the record, what the heck IS a libertarian position on this issue?

Private companies should be allowed to fail.

Government subsides simply reinforce the poor business practices which brought the company to insolvency in the first instance.

Government nationalization of failing businesses wrongfully transfers the losses to the taxpayers who had no part in the bad business decisions of the businesses.

That being said, I see no particular problem from a libertarian POV for the government to assist a viable company in obtaining financing from another firm. Bankruptcy courts do this all the time.

GROG said...

Robert:

When a new country is created they have no government. So yes, when they formed an actual government they then had more government than they previously had which was none. I really don't think because of the fact they actually formed a government means their philosophy for governing was "MORE GOVERNMENT IS THE SOLUTION."

Regardless of what liberal teachers or professors you had in history class, the founding fathers clearly wanted to limit the size and power of the federal government.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Robert said...

"When a new country is created they have no government. So yes, when they formed an actual government they then had more government than they previously had which was none."

The forming of our country did not exist in a vacuum. It was not a transition from "no government" to "more government". Prior to the establishment of the Constitution, there was the Articles of Confederation, which was inneffective. Prior to the AoC, there was British colonial rule, which, also, was a form of government. Unless you're seriously going to argue that the creation of the Constitution based US spontaneously formed with no consideration for the AoC and the British control, then you know your analogy is specious. If you actually are going to argue that, then you are hopeless, and we can stop now.

"I really don't think because of the fact they actually formed a government means their philosophy for governing was "MORE GOVERNMENT IS THE SOLUTION."

This isn't remotely what's been argued. What's been argued, since you seem to have missed it, is that the eventual citizens of the US were British colonists under the rule of king George and the British govt, who rebelled because of their representation being unsatisfactory, and whom then attempted to form a union with the AoC, which was also unsatisfactory, and eventually came up with the Constitution.

If you want to make an argument that the Constitution provided for less federal power than the AoC, you are more than welcome, but you will only continue to show your ignorance of history.

GROG said...

I intitially responded to this comment:

"MORE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION," and, like clockwork, the tea partiers will begin chanting along in unison.

One of the founding principles of this country was clearly limited central governmental control. The King controlled the colonies from what may have well have been a universe away. The colonies could not be represented fairly from overseas and they were not going to let what they envisioned as a growing nation to be governed from a central capital. The 10th ammendment does a fine job of explaining their desire for states rights as opposed to a big central government.

To say they were for more government control in the 1770's does not mean they would be for more goverment control in 2009. The founding fathers would be horrified at the size and reach of the federal government today.

The constitution clearly limits government and that's what conservatives (should) believe in. My origianal point was that we have always stood for limited government. Conservatives don't just chant in unison about it because Hannity said to.

DynamicUno said...

Obliterati said: "The teabaggers will take the opposite position that the White House takes, whatever that may be. No matter what Obama does or says or proposes, the teabaggers will oppose it, with great enthusiasm. It's a mortal lock - the safest bet in the history of the universe."



Although I'm afraid you'll be proven right, I'm willing to take the opposite view here only because I know there is a large component of the Tea Bagger movement that is pure libertarian. These people have been protesting the Fed and big banks for years. Monetary policy is the holy grail for these people. What's more, the libertarians are the more coherent part of the Tea Partiers, which the rambling Right has latched on to in its efforts to magnify its incohate shrieking. There is already some frustration amongst the libertarian folks at how the tea baggers are making them look ridiculous, and this sort of about face - opposing the bail out and then opposing smashing the banks - is not going to sit well with them.


But I could be wrong, because as you say, the tea baggers have gotten pretty reflexive. So say instead that this will be a good test of how genuine the tea bag movement really was.

Jacob said...

Nor did the founders understand the issues facing governments in a globally-connected and technologically advanced world, where a person couldn't just claim a plot of land and make his living, where medicine wasn't just bleeding and salves, where formal education was a prerequisite for just about everything.

What this ideologically-diverse group of men would hypothetically think of our society is basically irrelevant to how we should address pertinent issues.

But it's interesting that concerning issues in common between our time and theirs, i.e. monetary policy, defense, trade, and communication, they believed in some amount of regulation.

Robert said...

"To say they were for more government control in the 1770's does not mean they would be for more goverment control in 2009. The founding fathers would be horrified at the size and reach of the federal government today."

This is a far more reasonable statement than your original assertion that The founding fathers founded this country based on "MORE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION".

As I stated earlier, the question isnt more, or less, or how much is right. It's a question of what can the government do right? There are plenty of examples where the government has stepped in primarily because leaving it to the general populace/private sector produced unacceptable results. If the government can do something better than the populace, and they are given the right to by congress, then they absolutely should do it. This is part of why the Constitution is designed to be amended, and in fact, to grant more power to the government when it is deemed necessary.

This is why I find the suggestion that the founding fathers believed "more government is not the solution" to be so out of touch with reality. They intentionally made a document that allows the government to grow with the needs of the people, by giving the people the right to grant additional power to the government.

I think most conservatives, when pressed, should be able to concede that there are some things that the government does that they are fine with. Otherwise they should be anarchists. Similarly, liberals, when pressed, should be able to concede there are things the government does that it shouldn't. Otherwise they are actually totalitarians.

Our common ground is supposed to be where we determine what the government can do best, and not get drawn into distractions of large or small government, which are pretty arbitrary terms to begin with.

Besides, anyone who blindly repeats anything from Hannity/Rush et al or Olbermann/Maddow et al should be ignored as moronic anyway.

shiloh said...

Robert said...

Besides, anyone who blindly repeats anything from Hannity/Rush et al or Olbermann/Maddow et al should be ignored as moronic anyway.
~~~~~~~~~~


Whereas both twosomes are highly partisan, hannity/limbo distort the truth daily and are all about misinformation hate speak, racist spin which could never pass truthful scrutiny ...

and Olbermann/Maddow, although sarcastic and opinionated, provide factual information daily.

and yes, many winger sheep blindly worship Limbaugh, fixednoise et al as evidenced by their purported high ratings.

Again, progressives like to be entertained, whereas the remaining, dwindling conservative lemmings want to be led by winger talk radio and foxnews.

ie the progressives are extremely happy since Nov. 2008 and the Reps are totally pissed off an African/American currently resides on 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

btw, Olbermann and Maddow criticize Obama and the Dem party all the time! on all political issues.

Robert said...

The King controlled the colonies from what may have well have been a universe away. The colonies could not be represented fairly from overseas and they were not going to let what they envisioned as a growing nation to be governed from a central capital.

I also take issue with this. It wasn't that the king could not have allowed the colonies to have representation (and in fact, after the initial revolt, we sent plenty of representatives overseas begging for resources/help from other monarchies, some of whom did listen), it was that he refused to allow them to have representation in the British government. Once it was made abundantly clear that the king wasn't just too busy, but was actively disinterested in hearing greivances from the colonies' representatives, even the most conservative (of action, not of political opinion) became convinced that a revolution was the only option left.

If the king had been willing to be reasonable, things would have (probably) played out differently. But he was a jerk, and so here we are.

Robert said...

Olbermann/Maddow, although sarcastic and opinionated, provide factual information daily.

That's hardly the point. They're every bit as divisive and condescending as their conservative counterparts. The entire group, all of whom are more concerned with hearing themselves talk than actually furthering rational discourse, do more to engender "us vs them" attitudes among their respective groups than any crazy fringe group ever could. People, on both sides, who listen to these nutbags, are the ones who have the most difficult time considering the opposing viewpoint (yes, this includes progressives, liberals, or whatever else you want to call left-leaning individuals), and who promote the gridlock impasses we have in our legislative processes.

One of the things I like the most about Obama, is that of all the politicians I've observed (and I don't doubt that there are others who do this), he is most willing to listen to any good idea that's brought to the table, regardless of whether it's liberal/conservative/not his. You can't do that when you're convinced the other side has nothing useful to say.

There are plenty of pundits who can deliver factual information and partisan opinion without stirring up a bees nest of hatred for those who disagree. But these are the same people who aren't so ridiculously self-centered that they need to be on tv/radio 24/7.

No, Olbermann and Maddow are every bit as bad for the national discourse as Hannity or Limbaugh. We would all be better off without the whole lot.

Andrew Ossmann said...

The tea party movement is niether "Libertatian" of "Populist." It's Anti-Obama.

shiloh said...

Robert said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Whereas I will agree Olbermann is over the top and a prima donna, Rachel is not and we'll just have to disagree about equally divisive and condescending as fox news and conservative talk radio whole purpose in life is to attack and distort news re: progressives, Dems and Obama 24/7. Totally divisive and obsessively hateful.

btw, Olbermann admits he's a prima donna whereas everyone on fixed save Shepard Smith is a prima donna, totally in the tank for the Rep party, not a close call and of course they won't admit there sole purpose for existence is to distort the news and bring down Obama any way they can.

And if you like Obama, hope you're not too disappointed both Rachel and Keith were recently invited to the White House and it was Maddow's 2nd visit as she was also invited last January.

Capped a couple segments last nite from both 'Countdown' and Maddow's show as they both talk about being attacked for their visit and Obama truthfully calling out fixed for being a conservative opinion cabal as opposed to a legitimate news organization and the hypocrisy of fixed and talk radio considering the previous (8) cheney/bush years where wingers were included and progressives were on the outside and attacked for being the sole opposition to the cheney/bush madness!

If you can bear to watch lol also included a little, hmm, very little, palin comic relief in the middle.

Olbermann/Maddow ~ White House visit ~ Obama/Fixed bruhaha ~ palin going rogue/going rouge (17:59)

Olbermann and Maddow are harmless and not mean spirited ie the opposite of fox news, Limbaugh, etc. imo ...

and Maddow's a lot fairer than Olbermann as she is constantly inviting wingers/conservatives on her show, whereas Olbermann's show is entirely a progressive point of view.

Although most wingers are too chicken to appear on Rachel's show 'cause apparently she's the boogeyman ;) and she's gay and as "we" all know conservatives can't appear w/gays, not kosher, eh ...

Robert said...

And if you like Obama, hope you're not too disappointed both Rachel and Keith were recently invited to the White House

Don't really care, cause it has nothing to do with his ability to accept good ideas.

Olbermann and Maddow are harmless and not mean spirited

Oh come on. I'll give you that Maddow is more civil than Olbermann, but to seriously suggest that they're not mean spirited? Condescension coats their every word. It's not harmless, because their followers are then equally condescending, so when their conservative counterparts tell their viewers that liberals don't respect them, it's just that much easier to believe.

I'm not suprised you don't realize this, as you are a prime example of this condescension. Nearly every post you make here slings some kind of insult at conservatives (wingers, sheep, fixed noise, etc, just from this one thread). If you don't see how this is obstructive to rational discourse, then you are as hopeless as you seem.

No one is going to ever seriously consider your viewpoint as long as you keep insulting them while expressing it. This is just a basic fact of human nature.

shiloh said...

Robert said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Then we'll also have to disagree re: sarcasm and mean spirited. And smugly telling the truth and knowingly distorting the truth.

Combating conservative disingenuous smugness w/sarcasm is harmless imo and it comes down to one's politics how much someone is offended by said posts.

Everyone is free to ignore everyone else's posts here as political discussion on the net can be total detachment from reality as many wingers display at 538. As mentioned previously, typing words on a keyboard is harmless unless one already has psychological problems.

Some wingers are more subtle in their disingenuous, passive aggressive bull crap ie Jeff, BDP, etc.

Also mentioned I prefer face to face debate, as internet discussion, as a rule goes nowhere for obvious reasons.

Bottom line, again, most conservative wingers could never, ever perceive the reality of a Rep ever losing the presidency to a Dem, let alone, last Nov. an African/American yada, yada, yada candidate winning the presidency and will never come to terms w/an African/American family living in the White House. Of course they can never admit this political reality er prejudices/hatred which makes political discussion by progressives all the more fun ...

mustbepatient said...

It doesn't sound like many of you understand the Libertarian perspective here. A Libertarian would tell you that the Federal Reserve must be abolished, and the large banks are extensions of the Fed at this point, not capitalist enterprises. I don't see how a Libertarian would justify leaving them alone as the Fed is dismantled.

Dwight said...

@mustbepatient

Yes, raze the current system to the ground. Not just "let the bank fail" but a MUCH more fundamental change than that.

P.S. Of course Bart DePalma doesn't understand it. He's only a libertarian of convenience, the most common excuse for whatever he wants to rationalize today.

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