10.19.2009

Geoengineering is No Free Lunch -- A Comment on SuperFreakonomics

I'm not going to wade too deeply into the controversy over SuperFreakonomics, the sure-to-be-bestseller by Steve Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, which is due to be released this week. This is partly because other folks have done a good job of discussing the issues and partly because I feel like I have various conflicts of interest. On the one hand, I've met Steve Levitt a couple of times and can vouch for the fact that he's a relatively apolitical person (and also a kind and generous one). On the other hand, I'm working on my own book project, which while not particularly similar to Superfreakonomics in content or approach will undoubtedly will be competing for some of the same audience (the percentage of the U.S. population that buys "serious", nonbiographical nonfiction is fairly small). Suffice it to say that I think it's a good book -- more engaging in some ways than the original and easily worth a purchase -- but that the fifth chapter on climate science is by far the weakest material in either of the two Freakonomics books.

The fifth chapter comes down in favor of a geoengineering approach to combating the global warming problem, which Levitt and Dubner argue will be cheaper and more practical than a substantial reduction in carbon emissions. What is geoengineering? It is intentionally altering the Earth's climate system, presumably with the goal of balancing out the effects of global warming. Arguably the two most promising geoengineering approaches are:

-- Finding some mechanism to shoot sulfur into the atmosphere -- this is the approach that Levitt and Dubner concentrate on in SuperFreakonomics. Sulfur has a cooling effect, as can be observed, for instance, when there is a large volcanic eruption -- volcanoes emit lots of sulfur and when Mount Pinatubo erupted in 1991 it cooled the planet's temperatures by approximately 0.9° F for several months.

-- Creating artificial cloudcover. Or to be more precise, modifying clouds to be more reflective, which would modify the earth's albedo and cause more sunlight to be bounced back into space. This is the approach pursued by Dr. John Latham, a seventysomething British scientist employed by the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, whom I spoke with on the phone several weeks ago.

I'm not going to describe the entirety of my conversation with Latham -- which is intended primarily for the book. But the three most essential points he raised are as follows.

Firstly, Latham thinks geoengineering approaches are woefully underfunded -- the word he used to describe the current levels of funding was "derisory" -- just a few million dollars toward an approach which could potentially combat the multitrillion dollar problem of climate change. "All I can hope for in my lifetime is to see some real funding of the examination of the viability of geoengineering schemes," he told me.

Secondly, Latham was adamant that geoengineering programs are not looked at as a substitute to carbon reduction schemes but rather as a complement to them. He told me:

"The thing that has scared everyone I know working in geoengineering, and the thing that has caused a lot of very good scientists to say we shouldn't have it is the worry that if it was announced that geoengineering was to be thoroughly examined, there would be a temptation on behalf of the oil companies to say, “Oh well, they’re going to solve the problem, we can keep burning fossil fuels”. Which is the last thing anyone wants. But then to not examine it would be irresponsible. If we reach that tipping point, we want to be in the position to be able to help out."
Thirdly, the largest hurdles to geoengineering are arguably not scientific but political. Although geoengineering approaches would almost certainly succeed in reducing the earth's average temperature, the effects would not be uniform across the globe, nor would they precisely counterbalance the warming effects of CO2.

"There will be a different distribution of temperatures, and rainfall and wind features," Latham told me. "If our technique was applied and it reduced rainfall in areas where they are struggling for every drop, than in case we couldn’t remedy that, we would consider not using our scheme."

Certain computer simulations that Latham and his team ran identified, for instance, a reduction in rainfall in South America as a result of one of his suggested implementation proposals. A different implementation scheme might avoid that particular problem, but could cause problems in other areas. Latham seemed reasonably optimistic that with further funding for computer modelling**, such problems could be reduced -- but they could not be entirely eliminated. Some regions would have their climates impacted negatively (in terms of crop yields, habitability, etc.) by geoengineering, certainly relative to the status quo and in some cases relative to large-scale warming.

That doesn't mean that geoengineering would be "bad", relative to the scenario of runaway warming. It could potentially be a lot, lot better, on balance, for most of the planet. But "on balance" skirts over the regional discrepancies. How would Brazil feel, for instance, if the most optimal scheme happened to reduce its crop yields by 20 percent? How would Bangladesh feel if the approaches increased precipitation in the Himalayas, which in turn increased the flooding in its river deltas? What if we were trying pick between two approaches, one of which might increase the habitability of the Australian Outback, but others of which might make it even less hospitable to human settlement? And just who has the right to shoot a few volcano's worth of sulfur up into the atmosphere, anyway?

Finally, it should be remembered that geoengineering is not a one-time fix -- if we continue to pollute the atmopshere with carbon, we would have to continually release more sulfur into the atmosphere (or seed more clouds, etc.) to combat it.

What you'd have, in other words, is a massive global coordination problem -- exactly the sort of problem that makes global warming hard to control in the first place. "I suppose the only hope is for some much more powerful global body to exist that could override the shrill requirements of the particularly selfish," Latham told me. "But goodness knows how to do that and whether it’s feasible."

*-*

It's routine to describe geoengineering as a "last resort". I don't prefer that language, because it might be the case that geoengineering is the only resort, and it could conceivably also be the case -- as Levitt and Dubner argue -- that it is actually cheaper than reducing carbon. Almost certainly, these approaches require much more funding and much more serious study. But it would not be a free lunch -- the political hurdles would be massive, arguably larger than the scientific ones. And the larger the scale of the warming problem, the more geoengineering will be required, and therefore the higher the political hurdles will be.


** One potential irony here is that, because geoengineering approaches do not lend themselves very well to large-scale, physical experimentation prior to their actual implementation, they would almost certainly require extensive computer modelling. So anyone who is skeptical of what computer models tell us about carbon should be at least as skeptical of any guarantees made by geoengineers.

p.s. I've received a couple of e-mails to the effect that while geoengineering approaches like releasing sulfur might "solve" the temperature problem, they would not address the issue of ocean acidification, which also results from CO2 emissions. This is certainly worth mentioning; one of the scientists who wrote me described it as a problem "with consequences so enormous and unforseeable as to make a few degrees C of warming pale in comparison".

p.p.s. To be clear, I have read the book (I was sent an advance copy two weeks ago).

155 comments

chaita said...

I would have liked Nate Silver's opinion on the economics of the chapter - some of which, even to a undergraduate econ major, was patently absurd.

dgoshilla said...

People always miss the point on the environment. It is about global warming but more importantly its about global resources. So we get some reflective clouds and some sulfur. Without renewable infrastructure how will we capture and release sulfur? Oil, coal are limited as are hundreds of other resources we take for granted like copper and oh let's say water.

stevie314159 said...

Seems to me that geoengineering + the law of unintended consequences = potential for major shitstorm.

What hubris, that we think that we can solve a problem not by removing the cause of that problem, but by just rejiggering the equations to our liking.

Jacob said...

Blogger dgoshilla said...

"People always miss the point on the environment. It is about global warming but more importantly its about global resources."


Absolutely true. And while warming and the effects it has on regional climates may be the most important environmental issue (and the most impactful on food production), people seem to forget that their are many many other problems derived from human impact on the planet.

Not all pollution contributes to warming, but can still make water less potable, air less breathable, land less arable for longer periods of time, etc, not to mention the myriad unforseeable consequences of decreasing speciation due to overconsumption, farming invasive or depleting species, etc.

Judge C. Crater said...

"How would Bangladesh feel if the approaches increased perception in the Himalayas..."

While any area of the world could always benefit from increased perception, I believe you meant precipitation.

Bradford said...

I think your last point is the most important - that there is no way to model this and be sure what we are doing will work and not have huge unintended consequences. I think we are stuck with some warming, but the runaway models have alot of assumptions built in that are patently absurd as well.

Global warming is thus a big deal, but a much smaller deal than most now think and the sunspots, or lack thereof, may yet save us from ourselves.

Judge C. Crater said...

"What hubris, that we think that we can solve a problem not by removing the cause of that problem, but by just rejiggering the equations to our liking."

Read the column again: "Secondly, Latham was adamant that geoengineering programs are not looked at as a substitute to carbon reduction schemes but rather as a complement to them."

I could argue that it's hubris to assume that either (a) the problem will simply go away or (b) that we can somehow manage to achieve negative carbon consumption. In fact, I could argue that such delusions are far worse than hubris.

Peter Wolf said...

Sulphur in the atmosphere causes acid rain, and ignores the issue that increased CO2 levels can cause ocean acidification. Basically it's an extremely bad choice for geoengineering, and if Nate's description is accurate the authors are sadly lacking in scientific ability.

Chachy said...

So you're apolitical, but you decide to weigh in on a political issue of massive consequence to billions of people now and in the future, and your only agenda is to be snarkily contrarian and try to sell a few books... Is being "apolitical" in this sense any different from being amoral?

Peter Wolf said...

in fact, this really confuses me. I've read Freakanomics and the authors seemed pretty intelligent. So why aren't they intelligent enough to do some basic research on the effects of extra sulphur in the atmosphere? I mean a 10 second google for "sulphur+atmosphere+acid rain". I mean, this is stuff I covered at the age of about 14. http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/kids/acidrain.html

ocean acidification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

Peter Wolf said...

@Chachy - are you referring to the authors of Freakanomics?

Anthony said...

I knew Superfreakonomics had some sort of against-the-grain chapter on climate, however this is the first I've read of the thesis of the chapter. Reducing carbon emissions will only happen globally if it's economically favorable, which with the industrial growth (and economic-political inertia) of China, India, etc, it is basically not going to happen anytime soon. However, all proposals for geoengineering are so arrogant and poorly conceived, they miss the whole reason why climate change is a threat in the first place: human beings (not life on earth) are not threatened specifically by hotter climate but rather any significant change to global climate patterns. Geoengineering very well might cool the earth in aggregate, but it is just as likely to drastically alter the earth's climate to our species' detriment. And in a nearly unpredictable way.

Persuter said...

Seems to me that geoengineering + the law of unintended consequences = potential for major shitstorm.

What hubris, that we think that we can solve a problem not by removing the cause of that problem, but by just rejiggering the equations to our liking.


Ding ding ding, Stevie wins the thread.

Dumping sulfur into the air causes acid rain - in a hilarious irony, cap and trade was originally used to reduce sulfur emissions for that reason. It also destroys the ozone layer. Pinatubo, for example, did result in major cooling - but also resulted in some of the lowest ozone levels ever recorded.

The idea of "geoengineering" fundamentally seems to miss the entire problem. Global warming doesn't concern people because the current world average temperature is the best of all possible temperatures. Global warming concerns people because there's a huge manmade shift in the climate and we don't know what the results will be. Geoengineering is literally not even a solution to climate change, it is a solution to some other problem which happens to symptomatically "fix" climate change. It's like trying to cure a 103 degree fever with ice baths.

Rudy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Peter Wolf said...

this guy goes through the chapter in some detail.

I won't be buying the book, and I would have been tempted.

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/10/sigh-last-post-on-superfreakonomics-i-promise.html

shrinkers said...

It seems to me a more reasonable approach to geoengineering would be in carbon capture technologies. Rather than combat the symptoms of global warming, go for the causes. The geoengineering suggests given amount to treating the adverse health effects of a cancer (tiredness, lowered immunity, etc.) rather than combating the cancer itself.

Seems to me it would make more sense to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. I have no idea how one would do it - maybe planting lots of trees, that sort of thing. But if you do it in some way that doesn't involve adding more crap to the atmosphere, seems to me carbon capture would be less likely to have unintended consequences than something like sulphur seeding.

Of course, reducing carbon emissions is the primary concern - but realistically, we aren't going to get to negative growth there any time soon, and even if we do, the level of carbon dioxide is already too high - some models seem to indicate we're already past a tipping point. Maybe it's time to think about undoing the cause, not just reducing it.

Mr. Finch said...

I loved the first Freakonomics, but I think geoengineering is a mistake on just about the biggest level possible. Weathermen can't predict if it's going to rain 2 days from now, why should I believe that they can predict what happens when they shoot millions of tons of crap into the atmosphere?

Sure, it may be cheaper to geoengineer than reduce our carbon... it's also cheaper to nuked a mountain rather than drill a train tunnel through it... but we don't do that, do we? I can't believe COST is what is going to make us do something inherently risky and probably non-reversible to the only planet we have. We can't afford to screw this one up, guys.

Chachy said...

@Peter Wolf - yep.

cyd said...

The ending to the "Dinosaurs" TV series satirized the geo-engineering approach, over a decade ago...

dsalkovi said...

For more information about why Levitt and Dubner are wrong, see
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/10/why-levitt-and-dubner-like-geo-engineering-and-why-they-are-wrong/

taw said...

Deciding on the right levels of carbon emissions between countries is not in any way easier than deciding on the right levels of geo-engineering between countries.

In either case it can only happen by a few big countries agreeing on some targets and bribing or threatening everyone else into shutting up and accepting them.

Assuming geo-engineering is indeed many trillions of dollars cheaper than drastic rapid reduction in carbon emission as geo-engineering advocated say, bribing and threatening will both be relatively easy to do.

Rudy said...

greed that it seems like a reach to believe that geoengineering can come up with any immediate effective solutions, but I think the authors' point was more that it has potential in the future.

There are many enormous controversies that are not easily resolvable because of the complexity of the subject.

Research about unintended consequences is woefully behind the curve in the push to shoot first and ask questions later. This is the biggest weakness of the current climate modeling and why they've been unable to produce any forward-looking accuracy.

It is not at all clear, as many so blithely assert, that the climate shifts are manmade, or that carbon dioxide reduction is desirable. Current focus needs to remain on improving the science such that we don't embark upon costly "solutions" that will be either ineffectual or counter-productive.

Until alarmist assertions can supported by forward-looking scientific replicability it would be irresponsible to embark upon any destructive policies that would be both expensive and deleterious to human life styles.

Christopher said...

Even assuming that we could predict all the consequences of geo-engineering (which I don't buy for a second), the fact is that it WILL DRAMATICALLY change the climate in some areas. An issue that you do mention is "who gets to decide where the effects are felt?" To judge from history, the effects will be felt most in the poorest places on the planet. This whole scenario strikes me as ill-thought out. So we allow dramatic climate change in some (likely the poorest) areas? I thought that was the whole problem to begin with!

This is not the only solution to the problem, but it is the most arrogant solution. The global system is far too complex for a rational person to think that an action on the global scale will have only the consequences that you think it will.

Dwight said...

Firstly, Latham thinks geoengineering approaches are woefully underfunded -- the word he used to describe the current levels of funding was "derisory" -- just a few million dollars toward an approach which could potentially combat the multitrillion dollar problem of climate change. "All I can hope for in my lifetime is to see some real funding of the examination of the viability of geoengineering schemes," he told me.

This is all cart-before-the-horse talk. Climate research is the basic science for geoengineering. Geoengineering is the application of what we know about climate, the hows and whys of it changing. If you don't have a solid handle on the later you seriously risk royally screwing up in the former...which means his 3rd point is also malarky. Implimentation is a science/engineering issue. It only becomes a political one if you can't mitigate the problems....although who picks up the tab for implementation is more a political issue. That's why this can fit with Cap'n Trade so well, because that sort of revenue source is a pretty natural, "fair" fit for funding.

Brian D said...

Setting aside their support for suphate seeding (which completely ignores ocean acidification, by the way - yes, putting more carbon dioxide in the air means the oceans absorb more of it, which they store as carbonic acid), the chapter has some particularly grotesque science and economics in it. For instance, they mention the "1970s global cooling" myth, and (as Krugman recently noticed), they seem completely convinced that a small amount of economic incentive equals behavioural change UNLESS that change involves cutting carbon emissions.

It is to science what truthiness is to truth.

I've read the chapter, which Brad DeLong gracefully linked to. The original Freakonomics dealt strongly with areas that Levitt had done original research in. Superfreakonomics, particularly chapter 5, evidently wasn't. I suspect this was more Dubner's work.

I've also been maintaining a list of critiques of Superfreakonomics' climate chapter, but I don't want this comment to get caught up in moderation. If you google "FAIL: Superfreakonomics", you can find it.

shrinkers said...

@Rudy
It is not at all clear, as many so blithely assert, that the climate shifts are manmade, or that carbon dioxide reduction is desirable. Current focus needs to remain on improving the science such that we don't embark upon costly "solutions" that will be either ineffectual or counter-productive.

This is a popular right-wing meme. But it is completely and totally false. There is no question whatever that human activity is altering our environment, and that so-called "greeenhouse gases" are among the major causes.

Entrenched political and economic interests want us to believe otherwise, but all the science - all of it - indicates that global climate change is happening, and human activity (most particularly carbon dioxide emissions) is a huge contributor.

But you've heard that argument - and we've heard the right-wing nonsense meme. We're not buying it. Instead, we're looking for solutions.

Chachy said...

A lot of people are pointing out the problem of unintended consequences here, but I think it's worth stepping back and considering the sheer absurdity of the notion that the solution to shooting a bunch of CO2 into the atmosphere is to shoot a bunch of sulfur into the atmosphere. They're not the same thing, and the effects of the one will not just neatly cancel out the effects of the other. It's a staggeringly simplistic notion that because one warms and the other cools, that one can just offset the other (as comments re: acid rain, ocean acidification, drying up Brazil, the unknowable effects of creating a gloomy yellow haze on ecosystems, etc., reveal).

Green Christian said...

If we're going to discuss geo-engineering, it might be worth looking up the Royal Society report on the matter that came out a couple of months back.

Their summary can be found here, and my layperson's summary, with commentary can be found here.

Both the methods mentioned by this book were given short shrift in the Royal Society report - neither looks likely to be a particularly cost-effective or productive way to combat climate change.

Ryan said...

Because of the negative impacts geoengineering could cause to specific areas, it really is a dangerous thing to attempt to do (politically). I can easily see it leading to a world war and for good reason. The only way I could see it working is if the only areas affected negatively were either too weak to complain (with no real allies.. not a good scenario and very unlikey), or the powerful nations that are putting it in place (taking one for the team).

Jarv said...

The big difference to me between reducing carbon use and geoengineering us some cooling is the unintended consequences. We know what the world's environment was like when there was less carbon being put into it, so we can be a lot more confident in what would happen if we reduced carbon use. However, we're much less confident what the world would be like if one of these geoengineering approaches was taken.

I think that the biggest argument they have going in their favor is the potential for having our cake and eating it too. However, as Nate points out above, we haven't really done all the research that would be necessary to pull this off. Who knows? Geoengineering might be the better solution. But the problem is upon us and we don't know anywhere near enough to risk geoengineering, but the other tactic seems much less risky. We should be doing more research into geoengineering; I don't think any of us can honestly say we know it won't work, because I don't think anyone's done the leg work to figure out the countours of this idea.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

This whole discussion is just silly. I mean, it was so cold outside last night so that means the earth is cooling!

I suppose it wouldn't be the first time we tried to alter the weather. If I'm not mistaken, chemicals were dropped into clouds over the dust bowl in the 30's in the hopes water molecules would attach and fall in the form of rain.

Honestly, I think the solution is this. Rather that put any money into CO2 capturing techniques, just pump trillions into alternate energy resources and the energy grid to support it. China's busy making massive solar plants and wind farms. I don't know why we couldn't do the same.

Phil said...

Like all things to do with the environment, the question is what is the true cost of something? I hope the authors include in their cost estimates any additional tangential costs that the effects of geoengineering may have on the planet. If there is a cost to say the acid rain, etc. I find it hard to believe they know the true costs of a geoengineering approach in order to make the statement it will be cheaper. They should just say this may be another alternative without making the grandieous statement that it will be cheaper. I do not think we know if it will be cheaper. I guess they need these kind of "out there" statements to sell books.

Jacob said...

Blogger liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

"China's busy making massive solar plants and wind farms. I don't know why we couldn't do the same."


Because in our system, even the most basic steps require an immense degree of political consensus. People living in the most wind-intensive areas don't want the eyesore of wind farms nearby (i.e. Cape Cod), or large numbers of solar panels. If these areas include wealthy or influential people, it will almost certainly be a no-go.

Even in the most liberal and environmentally friendly areas, the NIMBY effect can be immensely powerful, especially if innovations would adversely affect local property values.

BlackCoffeeDrinkingLiberal said...

The Onion: "New Technological Breakthrough To Fix Problems Of Previous Breakthrough"

Currently, geoengineering is the new technological breakthrough. If we use it, how long before it's the previous breakthrough?

Michael (mbw) said...

Great post.

The ocean acidification is a very big deal. As with the warming, the problem is not that we are now at some theoretical ideal value, but rather that corals and shellfish etc. cannot evolve quickly enough stay viable with the pH rapidly dropping.

Rudy said...

Shrinkers, you can disparage my assertion all you want, but you can only do so using imprecise words like "huge" without any scientific measurement or meaning whatsoever. That is the exact crux of what should be being researched -- whether the man-made effects are important enough for intervention.

There is ample, ample reason to question the effect of man as compared to natural cyclicality and uncontrollable non-human effects. No one can say the magnitude of each, or else there would be forward prediction replicability. That is why we need better science.

It's not at all clear yet that reducing carbon dioxide is desirable because of the complexity of effects and counter-effects that are still poorly understood. If the relationship were clear, the modeling tools would not be as demonstrably errant as they are.

It's inarguably true that the leftists have forced the science to jump to conclusions prematurely for political reasons. As such, it is intellectually dishonest for those allied scientists to keep pretending that the science is better than its prediction results demonstrate.

MaineMike said...

This reminds me of the last episode of the series "Dinosaurs":

Dinosaurs Season 4 Episode 7

The dinosaurs shoot something into the sky to "fix the environment" and end up causing the ice age. Who knew?

Dwight said...

MaineMike, "That's a forth quarter issue" is still a favourite quote of mine. :)

dre7861 said...

As a layman it seems like the scenario presented is not to have the balls to stand up to Big Oil/Coal and thus have our planet smelling like rotten eggs - the only thing I remember from IPS back in Jr High

Pat said...

Many people here seem to be against Geo-Engineering. Many times, using the same arguments they use to support Global Warming, and why we should stop CO2 Emissions.

First off: Climate Models must get better, as it can't adequately model much yet. Say the Earth gets two degrees warmer. Does that mean more or less annual rainfall in California? No one really knows... It's a grand criticism of both the Geo-Engineers AND the Global Warming scare tactics flooding, droughts, gloom and doom.

Second: The True SCALE of Global warming and CO2 Emissions is actually quite mind boggling. People talk about wind power, solar power, ect... It's not enough. It's nowhere NEAR enough. To Stop CO2 Emissions and Global warming in its tracks, you'd need nothing short of a medium sized nuclear war. They're having a hard enough time stopping INCREASING the rate of CO2 emissions...let alone dropping them. Because it's REALLY expensive. How expensive?... Imagine your effective income dropping by 50%..and everyone else's. That's because the entire economy is based off CO2 Emissions. Compared to a 50% drop in Global GDP... Geo-Engineering looks cheap.

Third: OK, lets assume for a minute the worst case scenario of Global Warming. 10 Degree to 20 degree increases in the temperature. Iowa turning into a desert. Manhattan flooding. Against this, Scientists tell you they can stop it, they just need to shoot Sulfur and Particulates into the atmosphere. Sure, you'll get some more acid rain, and higher levels of asthma, but Iowa won't be a desert. Is that a worthwhile trade off? Against the worst case scenario (which we haven't hit...).

Forth: For the record, I'm in favor of the space-based approaches to geo-engineering.

Dwight said...

Fourth: For the record, I'm in favor of the space-based approaches to geo-engineering.

If we can figure out the engineering for the platforms this has a much better chance of mitigating a lot of the heat change without a lot of the side effects. At far enough range they'll give a nice even solar radiation drop across the planet.

We'll still have the problem with ocean acidification, though.

However regarding the stuff further up your post, I think you are prematurely discounting the benefits of spreading out the CO2 emissions over a longer time period. Talking in general terms less abruptness in changes to the system typically means less volitility within the system. So the more we can slow increase rate increases, or better yet decrease CO2 emissions rates absolutely, the easier it is to manage the changes.

William said...

What about the project to remove CO2 from the air using QuickLime?

The idea was to go to the desert, take a few thousand acres and dig a giant hole. In the hole, put the thinnest cement you have ever seen. As the cement on top sets, it pulls CO2 form the air and solidifies. The solid cement can be collected at the bottom, heated to remove the CO2, which can then be sequestered.

I don't think putting Sulpher in the air is a good solution. Volcano are not good for human lungs.

Walker said...

Beware the conclusions of so-called experts:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/SZJbAkE0e6I/AAAAAAAABas/q4mDRF8ooK4/s400/global+cooling+global+warming+time.jpg

People are starting to catch on that this has all been the biggest bunch of media-driven nonsense ever rolled out to the masses.

For the life of me I cannot understand normally bright, sensible people seriously considering deploying mind-bogglingly expensive schemes rife with endless "unintended consequences" all in the vain effort to fight "global warming".

Today, Prime Mininster Brown said we "only have 50 days to save the world"!

Only fifty days! Are you kidding me?

Who is this ass-clown? When did the ex-VP of the US become the chief British executive?

I love how people say things like "But we have to do something! What if there is global warming and we did nothing?!"

I could just as easily say something like, "We have got to band together as one, super state to fight the Alien Albino Midget Invasion from Gattica 6! We just can't to nothing, people! What if we're wrong?? The Albino Midget Aliens will be here any minute!!"

Meanwhile there hasn't been any increase in global temperatures since 1998 or so despite increased CO2 emissions.

What's this all about again, "experts"?

Bart DePalma said...

After watching fans in winter coats huddling under blankets during a mid-October snow in Foxboro and freezing rain in Yankee Stadium, not to mention already piling up about 7 inches of snow in my small Colorado town since September with more due on Wednesday, a post discussing releasing sulfur into the atmosphere to further cool the planet offers a certain wild detachment from reality. Perhaps not as deranged as PM Gordon Brown's recent rant that Britain will be destroyed by dry spells and heat waves without Kyoto II, but still pretty far out there.

shma said...

It's called winter, dumbass.

No one ever said that seasons would disappear because of global warming.

Dwight said...

Walker said...
Beware the conclusions of so-called experts:


Also beware of "ass clowns", like you and Bart (wasn't Bart the last one to try pull this "it's been getting colder since 1998" crap?), that try lie with bogus analysis of data.

@William

We should probably take care of the first step #1 first. :) Sequestering CO2 when we make cement/lime, any cement/lime. ;) Because that's all that chemical reaction you are talking about is doing, pulling back in CO2 that we released when we created the lime out of limestone in the first place. :p Naturally occuring deposits of calcium oxide are pretty rare.

MarkinIL said...

@ Rudy

"Huge" may be scientifically imprecise, but your posts have not gone on to contain adequate scientific rigor.

Not to say you are wrong and Shrinkers is right or vice-versa. More to say, these are comments on a blog.

Regardless, your assertions that more money should be spent on improving climate science is correct. I would hope NSF and other scientific funding agencies throughout the world are working on this. However, a primary piece of climate science is applied. That is where scientists apply the best theoretical insights to solve or ameliorate the problem. As such, Shrinkers is also correct.

The debate is much less either/or than many make it out to be.

Dwight said...

... and speaking of ass clown #2, a hearty "welcome and please STFU" to Bart 'Weather=Climate' DePalma.

kimc said...

This is ridiculous. Last I heard, sulfur is poisonous. (Why do you think they use it to sterilize wine barrels?) Not to mention the people who are allergic to it. And it wouldn't solve any of the other problems with pollution, while adding its own pollution.
Plus, warming or not, we are going to run out of oil, and if we aren't ready for that, we are in trouble.
One thing we need to do is to stop the oil people from killing research into alternative fuels. Then, we need to fund research into alternative fuels. Real, original research, not done by big companies who have a stake in oil. I happen to know, because I have been looking for funding, that it just isn't available for a small-time concern to do real research into something new. The government is only funding solar and wind technologies that already exist. Yes, we have invented something new that might solve the problem, but we can't get government funding and don't want vc funding.
Better than sulfur -- they could just put a lot of giant mirrors in all the deserts to send the excess heat back out into space. That's how the polar ice caps work and why losing them will speed up global climate change.
by the way, "warming" is misleading: warming of the average temperature of the planet causes, not "global warming" but "chaotic weather patterns".

Persuter said...

Who is this ass-clown?

He's the prime minister of Britain. And you are?

When did the ex-VP of the US become the chief British executive?

He didn't. You are simply using mind-bogglingly stupid ad hominem attacks because you have no factual response to him whatsoever.

I could just as easily say something like, "We have got to band together as one, super state to fight the Alien Albino Midget Invasion from Gattica 6! We just can't to nothing, people! What if we're wrong?? The Albino Midget Aliens will be here any minute!!"

You certainly could say that. And everyone would ignore you. There would not be a global outcry. There would not be widespread concern. The Maldives' parliament would not hold a session underwater to draw attention to the near-certainty that their country will be largely underwater within fifty years. Corporations would not begin drawing up plans to exploit the Northwest Passage, and countries would not begin maneuvering to take advantage of the soon-to-be-exposed Arctic oil riches.

No one would care. That, my friend, is the distance between your opinion and a consensus among serious experts, your virulent anti-intellectualism notwithstanding.

Davy said...

First off: NATE...BOOK...WHEN????

I'm Jonesin' to read it.

Secondly, most of you know this topic to be part of my graduate studies so I have a pretty strong and informed opinion on the matter. Here's the quick version:

We are already engaged in a collective form of geoengineering in that our lifestyles are altering the natural balance of the planet. I think this should be addressed before we consider any other artificial means of altering the environment and I am personally engaged in promoting policy to mitigate those habits.

Secondly, this has all the makings of a bad science fiction movie. By that I refer to the concept of cascading consequences. It's only taken a couple of centuries of industrialization to start seeing its effects on the planet's ecosystems but this is only the beginning. We have found the canary in the coal mine lying in the bottom of the cage quivering and spasmodic. There will be more consequences to come.

This is one of the problems I have with cap and trade. It's like cutting back from two packs of cigarettes a day to one. The end result is still the same.

If we should pursue some form of geoengineering we should be damn sure it will work and not have runaway consequences that we never intended because, like a freight train coming down from Cajon Pass in California, we won't be able to stop it once it starts rolling.

wv: hiest (speaking of trains)

Michael (mbw) said...

This comment by Rudy about the various causes of changing temperature is deeply wrong: "No one can say the magnitude of each, or else there would be forward prediction replicability."
In checking models, we can use known past records of solar influx, volcanic eruptions, etc. Thus the past driving terms are pretty well quantified. That allows the separation of the CO2 term from the others. More importantly, it allows the net feedback coefficient to be determined. That allows prediction of the future CO2 effects, since we have a good idea of how future CO2 concentrations depend on our behavior.

Predicting the detailed future of the other effects which add to that would require better solar models etc. We don't need to be able to do that to get a good idea where things are going, because the net effect from such causes has been fairly tightly bounded since the last ice age.

Bottom line:
!. Ocean acidification is highly predictable.
2. Global warming is reasonably predictable, despite some error bars on the feedback parameter.

Bart DePalma said...

shma said...

It's called winter, dumbass.

Winter starting before Halloween in the lower 48? Take a hint from mother nature, dude.

shrinkers said...

@Rudy
That is the exact crux of what should be being researched -- whether the man-made effects are important enough for intervention.

They have been researched. They are. No credible scientist disputes this.

@MarkinIL
The debate is much less either/or than many make it out to be.

In so far as a) we already know it is a serious problem, and b) we need more research to understand it better, I agree with you completely.

Bart DePalma said...

How many decades has it been since a MLB playoff game was cancelled due to below freezing temps, snow and ice in the second week of October as was the Philies/Rox game was on October 10?

This summer, the United States saw the greatest number of new low record temperatures since they started making records.

Last year it snowed in Dubai, Iraq, South Africa and China for the first time in decades or longer.

Meanwhile, there is no sunspot activity in the sun and does not appear to be any on the way. Welcome to global cooling.

Randall said...

Markin, it is a non sequitur for you to suggest that since I'm not bringing precise data to the table that my criticism on non-precision is illegitimate. The climate modeling has been and continues to demonstrably wrong in establishing the degree of link between carbon dioxide levels and climate change. One need not have a better model to opine that the current ones are wrong.

You do make an important point, though, about the need for research. However, we cannot brute-force our way to successfully-definitive research conclusions. Research that is politically targeted to reach a quick conclusion because it is the "best" that we have is no less invalid. Any such phonied-up science needs to be cockblocked.

The only intellectually-honest approach is to separate science from politics. That is difficult to do because of who's funding and allocating research dollars. If politicians control the process, that easily leads to a biased research set. Similarly, a la the IPCC research, the conclusions drawn far outweigh the scientific support. I don't have any perfect answers, but it's vital to stop this politicalization of such important science.

Duelling opinions eventually can be resolved by empirical evidence, but calling theories factual is unacceptable unless their effect can be adequately demonstrated.

shrinkers said...
This post has been removed by the author.
shrinkers said...

@BDP -

"Global warming" does not mean that every spot on the globe will get warmer, and every year at every spot on the planet it will be warmer than it was last year.

It means that the average temperature of the planet as a whole will trend warmer, and will increase over time.

Some areas of the planet will actually be colder than they were. Some autumn temps will be lower. Climate models show that some areas of the planet will have more extremes swings - warmer summers and colder winters. Random variation being what it is, the average for some years will actually be cooler than the year before. But the overall worldwide average temp will trend upward - rather rapidly, too.

The term "global climate change" is probably less confusing and more accurate.

But then, you know all this, and are simply ignoring it for the sake of instead being a troll.

Jacob said...

As Upton Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."


Although it's always great to see the strawmen and false premises thrown out by Rudy, Bart, and Walker so ably and thoroughly refuted, it's not going to change anyone's mind.

Climate change skeptics like George Will and his ilk don't make these claims because of their failure to understand science, but because they don't believe in the scientific method to begin with.

Climate change skepticism--much like anti-evolutionism or the denial that smoking causes cancer--cannot be refuted with scientific proof, simply because their proponents will refuse to believe in climate science, biology, oncology, or whatever the case may be.

This sort of willful ignorance will continue as long as accepting the reality of the situation is inconvenient to their lifestyle or belief system.

That's where the term "inconvenient truth" comes from. Probably best not to get bogged down in proof that climate change is happening, but focusing instead on the best ways to address it, and why spreading sulphates into the atmosphere is a horrible idea.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

It's called winter, dumbass.

Take a hint from mother nature, dude.
~~~~~~~~~~


Let the record show 538's highly educated, well armed! ;), I never have any source material to back up any of my winger nonsense, conservative troll ... used the words dumbass and dude.

carry on

The weather outside is frightful ...

gman said...

We can't even predict the weather a day ahead of time and you think injecting large volumes of sulfur into the atmosphere is a good idea? Climatology is an underdeveloped field. We're still studying correlations and have no way to determine causal relationships because you can't exactly set up controlled experiments with the Earth.

We still don't have hard proof the global warming trend will continue... we'd be way ahead of ourselves if we let nutjobs release massive amounts of sulpher. Remember, we only have one atmosphere!

Robert said...

"Winter starting before Halloween in the lower 48? Take a hint from mother nature, dude."

Wow, Bart, you have identified a single data point, and from it extrapolated that the entirety of time shows nothing alarming. Good thing you have demonstrated so clearly to us that you are no scientist.

It's not a question of any one temperature or any one climate or any one solution. The evidence is there for anyone willing to investigate, which is why nearly 100% of scientists support the conclusion that global warming exists. It's various possible causes are still moderately debated, but it's existence is unquestionable, at least by anyone with a modicum of scientific understanding. The relationship between CO2 content in the air and global temperatures exists, without any doubt. Whether it's causation or just correlation doesn't change the fact that the relationship still provides undisputed evidence of the trend.

People who deny global warming have about as much scientific credibility at this point as evolution denialists (and I refer solely to the forward observation effect of evolution, those who extrapolate backwards can defend their own non-scientific inferrences).

In short, stop pretending you know jack about science Bart. The only person you are fooling is yourself.

Michael (mbw) said...

@BdP-

Setting aside your anecdotes to get at the core issue:

Yeah, the sun will continue to be variable and affect temperature. If solar influx is low for a decade, we may see a pause in the increasing T. Then, as always happens, the sun the will return to normal, or maybe fluctuate on the high side, and all hell will break loose.

The various effects on T are, to a good approximation, additive. Why is that such a hard idea?

Mule Rider said...

It's called winter, dumbass.

Really?

Actually, I think it's called autumn.


No one ever said that seasons would disappear because of global warming.

And you might want to check up on where October falls within those "seasons" before you call someone a dumbass.

Randall said...
This post has been removed by the author.
suvro said...

There are other alternatives that will also not have any C footprint. Our NSF funded center - see www.ccisolar.caltech.edu - is working on discovering efficient and cheap catalysts containing earth abundant metals for using solar photon energy to split water into H2 and O2. The generated H2 can then be combined with atmospheric O2 in a fuel cell to generate electricity. This circumvents the energy storage problem in the night because you generate sufficient H2 during the day to power all your energy needs in the night (as well as day). It has no C footprint, and the by products are water.

There are many scientific and engineering challenges - finding a membrane that will keep the H2 separate from O2 at source; finding efficient catalysts that will oxidize water; and catalysts for the reduction of the generated protons (H+); light harvesting elements that will capture energy from solar photons AND do charge separation to the opposite faces of the membrane. Some advances have been made, but a prototype is at least 3-4 years from demonstration, and commercialization is at least 10 years down the road. But there is no in principle barriers to achieving this.

Also keep in mind enough solar energy irradiates the earth every hour to power the planet for a full year. So you will need to split a very small amount of water to make this work.

Mule Rider said...

I'm not necessarily defending Bart's comments entirely, but this stood out:

Wow, Bart, you have identified a single data point, and from it extrapolated that the entirety of time shows nothing alarming. Good thing you have demonstrated so clearly to us that you are no scientist.



First of all, he did mention weather events in other parts of the world, or did you just not see the comment he made about snow in China, South Africa, the Middle East, etc.?

Secondly, this is the comments section of a blog post. This isn't a scientific article used to present reams of evidence subject to peer review. I think that's lost on most of you, anyway. In any event, being the forum that it is, I wouldn't expect any less from anybody else to use one example of something to make their point. I'll remember that, though, the next time a liberal in here tries to make a point based on a solitary observation.

Rudy said...

MBW and shrinkers, you both raise the old buffalo argument that just doesn't work anymore as so much of of the elitist science has been shown to contain massive logic holes. How nice that you get to arbitrarily deign which scientists are credible when the output of such scientists lacks credibility based on results.

All of the climate prediction models are empirically wrong based on forecasting results. And yet you want to call these people credible? Backtested tweaking does not make them any more right. Ignoring such basic statistical laws is an alarmingly common and highly dangerous problem in this sector, especially if those flawed results are to be used in policymaking.

Too many of the current models ignore effects which are not yet well understood, which is why the primary science still has such a long way to go. Small errors in input produce massive errors in output. That's why the forward replicability is the only acceptable means of validating such conclusions.

The best models attempt to take the interrelationships of the many factors into account, but in the end they are guessing on a host essential factors and incapable of modeling other essential factors.

I find it distressing that so many climate scientists insist on warring about whose pedigree is superior, presumably in an effort to stifle criticism. Instead, scientists should be focusing on identifying and resolving substantive issues, and not by just constantly declaring victory in an effort to short-circuit the scientific process.

shma said...

People use the word 'winter' to describe more than just the period of Dec 21st to March 20th. Try looking in a dictionary sometime.

Honestly, the quality of your arguments are so weak, it's not worth responding to half the time.

Robert said...

"First of all, he did mention weather events in other parts of the world, or did you just not see the comment he made about snow in China, South Africa, the Middle East, etc.?"

Started responding before that was posted. And it's still a cherry picking of data. Take ALL the data, and make conclusions, or don't bother. It's not science when you elect to ignore data that doesn't support your hypothesis.

"Secondly, this is the comments section of a blog post."

And? I just want to make sure everyone knows how much scientific credibility to weight comments like Barts. This isn't about liberal/conservative, it's about getting the world to agree to fix an existing problem to begin with. That requires that we collectively recognize that there is a problem. When it comes to debating the solution to the problem, then politics may come into play, but before we can decide what solutions are liberal or conservative, we have to agree that there is a problem to be solved.

Cherry picking data points in an attempt to make legitimate science look questionable isn't something I would want to attribute to either liberals or conservatives - we should all be able to agree it's stupid.

Rudy said...

Suvro, that's really interesting science -- I hope such ideas pan out. Wouldn't it be cool if this kind of research leads to a solution to our need for abundant energy?

Eventually, such innovation is the only way to produce renewable, economic, and viable fuuls. This is so much more worthwhile research than trying to milk bits and pieces out of tired and unscalable war horses like solar and wind.

Good luck.

michael said...

I am very impressed with the thoughtfulness and care with which Nate takes on this subject. Talk about the butterfly effect magnified to the 30th power - shooting massive amounts of sulfur into the atmosphere? Lunacy with utterly unpredictable results...

@Liberal defender

"China's busy making massive solar plants and wind farms. I don't know why we couldn't do the same."

Four word answer: Big Oil, Big Coal

Persuter said...

After watching fans in winter coats huddling under blankets during a mid-October snow in Foxboro and freezing rain in Yankee Stadium, not to mention already piling up about 7 inches of snow in my small Colorado town since September with more due on Wednesday...

How many decades has it been since a MLB playoff game was cancelled...

This summer, the United States saw the greatest number of new low record temperatures...

Last year it snowed in Dubai, Iraq, South Africa and China...


I love how Bart cites all these things, and his conclusion is "Nope, no widespread climate change here!"

Jason S said...

It is easy (and common) to make the case that Geoengineering is too difficult or improbable an option to consider.

Realistically, we don't know. it might be.

But the same can certainly be said of reducing emissions through cap and trade.

After divvying up as much as a trillion dollars in benefits to lobbying groups, we have a bill that will have little impact on emissions, and may not even pass the Congress.

Significant reductions in emissions through political action may be as improbable as some of the most fanciful geoengineering schemes.

shrinkers said...

@suvro

That sounds like excellent and important work.

I suspect the only viable approach is a combination of things, working the problem from many angles. We need to lower carbon emissions. But we probably can't get rid of them entirely, and this doesn't address either the problem of the high levels that already exist, nor the question of replacing the energy lost by not using fossil fuels.

We need alternative sources of energy - lots of them - wind, solar, geothermal, tidal, fuel cells, etc., etc. This would help address other related general pollution problems, too.

We probably need some method of carbon capture, some way to remove carbon from the atmosphere, so as to reduce some of the current and future effects. Reforestation would help other environmental, ecological, and climate issues, too.

If things do worsen enough, we may need some of the more exotic alternatives - orbital mirrors, etc. The problem with these options is that, alone, they might encourage laxity in reducing carbon emissions.

Probably the only sensible and viable approach is a combination of these - reduce emissions, find alternate energy sources, and reduce the current carbon content of the atmosphere. And, regardless of cost, the it'll be a lot cheaper than doing nothing.

Persuter said...

Four word answer: Big Oil, Big Coal

Just to note - China produces 40% of the world's coal, twice as much as the United States.

FFAristocrat said...

Why does this remind me of Highlander 2?

Mule Rider said...

People use the word 'winter' to describe more than just the period of Dec 21st to March 20th. Try looking in a dictionary sometime.

And by your own link, the number 1 definition is:

the season between autumn and spring comprising in the northern hemisphere usually the months of December, January, and February or as reckoned astronomically extending from the December solstice to the March equinox

Regardless of semantics, the point remains that it is not common for there to be that much snow and cold weather in that part of the world this time of year.

Honestly, the quality of your arguments are so weak, it's not worth responding to half the time.

Pointing out that early to mid-October is not traditionally considered a part of the winter time period is hardly a "weak" argument.

Claiming it is to dismiss the aberration of early snow and cold weather is more of an indictment against your argument.

Pragmatus said...

Bart…

Your problem is that you don’t understand the difference between “weather” and “climate”.

You can cite any “weather” anecdote to support any silly belief about “climate”, but you haven’t demonstrated anything except the fact that you are rabidly fixated, facts be damned, to a particular position on global warming.

How many Fruit Loops boxtops did you have to send in to get your law degree?

Pragmatus said...

Fifi…

Same message to you—

Your problem is that you don’t understand the difference between “weather” and “climate”.

You can cite any “weather” anecdote to support any silly belief about “climate”, but you haven’t demonstrated anything except the fact that you are rabidly fixated, facts be damned, to a particular position on global warming.

How many Fruit Loops boxtops did you have to send in to get your [birth certificate]?

shrinkers said...

@MR

Pointing out that early to mid-October is not traditionally considered a part of the winter time period is hardly a "weak" argument.


You're right. It's not an argument at all, much less a weak one.

The changes in global climate mean that there are going to be extreme variations in temperature and weather. It does not mean that every day of the year will consistently be hotter than that same date the year before at very spot on the globe. It does mean that, over time, the worldwide annual temperature average will trend upward - which is precisely what we have been seeing over the last several decades.

Try to learn something about climate and about the science involved here before posting on the topic.

Bart DePalma said...

Prag:

"Climate change" is the spin term adopted by the Greens after the term "global warming" was rendered ridiculous by a decade of global cooling, punctuated by the past two severe winters and after the one month long summer we just experienced.

kimc said...

Michael said:
@Liberal defender

"China's busy making massive solar plants and wind farms. I don't know why we couldn't do the same."

Four word answer: Big Oil, Big Coal


that's right. Those big corporations that have a stake in not changing are doing what they can to prevent change. For one thing, they have practically discredited hydrogen fuel cells in most people's minds. But Toyota is planning on selling fuel cell cars to the public in 2015.
then there was that guy, Meyer I think his name was, who figured out a way to run a car on water, and actually signed a big deal with the Pentagon, but then dropped dead the next day, leaving no information behind. Except the video.
there's lots of stuff out there, but it's no longer possible to break into the market if you are small. Our society has lost almost all upward mobility, and the guys at the top want it that way.

shma said...

"And by your own link, the number 1 definition is..."

And what's the number two definition, troll?

2 : the colder half of the year

"Pointing out that early to mid-October is not traditionally considered a part of the winter time period is hardly a "weak" argument. "

It's a weak and stupid argument when snowfall happens all the time during your definition of 'autumn', including quite a few times in October and almost all the time in November in the northern part of the country.

But again, like Bart, you claim that a few days of early snowfall anywhere other than Alaska disproves global warming, or that winter weather coming earlier means that the earth is in a period of cooling. You clearly have no understanding of the word 'global' or 'climate', as well as any other definition of 'winter'. Maybe you should listen to Pragmatus.

Of course, I don't know why I'm even bothering with you. You've been a troll on this site from day one.

OH NO, ITS SNOWING IN COLORADO! RUN FOR THE HILLS, AN ICE AGE IS COMING!

Mule Rider said...

Your problem is that you don’t understand the difference between “weather” and “climate”.

...

You're right. It's not an argument at all, much less a weak one.

...

Different day but same ol' tune at 538. I get lambasted as a know-nothing kook who makes incredibly weak arguments (so weak even as to be non-existent in the opinion of some).

So what was my offense? What possible level of ignorance have I stooped to in order to have these words hurled in my face? Must've been something really stupid, right?

Like pointing out October isn't traditionally considered a winter month? As if dismissing someone's comments about abnormal weather patterns when you can't read a calendar is a strong argument...


Somebody please help me.


I've said nothing that would indicate I don't have a clue about the difference between climate and weather.

I pointed out how stupid and inane it was to say it's okay for it to be snowing in the places it is in October because it's "winter."

Pragmatus said...

Bart…

I grew up in Tucson, and one year it snowed there enough to stick on the ground—on May 14.

Does that mean Tucson isn’t really located in a hot desert?

Spend a little time reading here, although I’m sure you won’t bother because you might run across a fact or two and then have to run away screaming.

Pragmatus said...

Fifi…

You want some help? Ask your doctor to fit you with one of these, then see if there is a comparable appliance for your fingers.

Doug said...

Regardless of the foolish argument on the definition of winter, I think we can all agree that taking anecdotal evidence about local weather conditions on a particular day or week or month and using it to draw far reaching conclusions about long-term global climate trends is pretty foolish.

If any scientist were to use a claim like this in an academic paper to support a hypothesis, they'd be a laughing stock among climate scientists.

Mule Rider said...

shma,

I see you've descended into Level 6 sophistry to defend your inane statment. And you go ad hom with the "troll" bit too. Nice.

It's a weak and stupid argument when snowfall happens all the time during your definition of 'autumn', including quite a few times in October and almost all the time in November in the northern part of the country.

And there are many parts of the country where 80 degrees plus is common well into this time period. What's your point? In any event, now I now I don't need to bother with an idiot like you.

But I do understand the difference between climate and weather, and I do realize there is a 'global' component, which is infinitely more important than local phenomena. But that doesn't mean I can't point out a thing or two here or there that keeps me skeptical, even if it is an isolated observance.

In two straight summers, temps have barely cracked 90 here in the South. Granted, that's a short time period for comparison, but this is supposed to be a part of the world that sees continued warming. I'm not buying it 100%. Especially not as long as idiots and jerks like yourself are trumpeting it from every corner.

Joshua said...

I'm surprised no one here mentioned the planet VENUS yet.

Joshua said...

Mule,

And here in Pittsburgh, in the summers from 2005-2007 we had abnormally long stretches of 90+-degree days. Your point?

Robert said...

"Especially not as long as idiots and jerks like yourself are trumpeting it from every corner."

This is a ridiculous reason to remain skeptical.

All I would say to that is that (like with liberals), there are an uncountable number of conservatives who agree with you on various issues, but fail to come close to even your ability to argue them coherently. Does their "trumpeting" of similar viewpoints mean I can legimately remain skeptical of everything you say, just because you have the same position on the issue?

If so, you have effectively argued that nothing you (or for that matter, anyone) have to say is ever worth considering. This is of course ridiculous, because there are idiots on all sides of every big issue, and their idiocy is no excuse to stop considering a issue rationally.

Jacob said...

October 19, 2009 4:56 PM
Blogger Bart DePalma said...

"Climate change (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/us/politics/02enviro.html) is the spin term adopted by the Greens after the term "global warming" was rendered ridiculous by a decade of global cooling..."



In spite of the fact that he doesn't understand the article (or who "the Greens" are), Bart's link is actually pretty interesting.

The term "global warming" tends to make people think of environmental extremism, and makes people as dumb as Bart believe that everywhere must always get warmer for the trend to exist.

"Climate change" might be a more useful term, as even Bart understands that the climate has been shifting and weather/termperatures have become more erratic. This effect is of course still deeply connected to a continuing warming trend worldwide.

And Bart, on the off chance that you understand the word "trend," how does a decade featuring 8 of the 10 hottest years on record (and all 10 in the top 12), including perhaps the warmest year ever in 2005, how does that constitute a decade of "global cooling?"

Brian Jenkins said...

The folks writing SuperFreakonomics are pointing out a few things that you don't like, but that are obvious if you read the news:

First, "global warming" isn't warming the globe for some reason. True, not every year is guaranteed to be warmer than its predecessor... but when 11 years pass without rising temperatures and when Americans (the people you're trying to convince to make themsleves poorer) are buckling down for a third straight severe winter, there's something wrong with the models.

Second, GW alarmists have been hoist with their own petards. Take their models, use their suggested CO2 caps, apply their dictum that we're doomed if temperatures rise more than 2 degrees C... and we're doomed no matter what we do. Nothing we could do at this late date will keep temps from rising by more than 2 degrees... if the models were accurate, which they're not.

Third, GW scientists have been caught destroying data, concealing data, fabricating data, and failing in both short- and long-term predictions of temperatures and second-order effects. Clearly, they're going to greater and greater lengths to avoid admission of error.

Frankly, they're just being kind in suggesting that geo-engineering can solve the problem; they're making the generous, and increasingly unjustified, assumption that there is one.

BTW, about your contest back in July:

I live in Louisiana, and Weather Underground's nearest station to my home is at the airport in Monroe.

In August, nine days had above-normal highs, 16 had below-normal highs, and six had highs right on the norm.

In September, 10 above normal, 19 below normal, 1 normal.

In October so far, 4 above normal, 15 below normal.

Had I taken your bet, I'd be up $775.

shrinkers said...

@Jacob
And Bart, on the off chance that you understand the word "trend," how does a decade featuring 8 of the 10 hottest years on record (and all 10 in the top 12), including perhaps the warmest year ever in 2005, how does that constitute a decade of "global cooling?"

See, Bart read George Will, who lied about it. Bart then turned off his brain and will not allow any additional thought - and no actual data - to penetrate.

shma said...

"And there are many parts of the country where 80 degrees plus is common well into this time period. What's your point? In any event, now I now I don't need to bother with an idiot like you."

You're the fool making the claim that regional weather patterns say something about global warming, not me.

Can you even get your own argument straight?

"but this is supposed to be a part of the world that sees continued warming."

No scientist has ever made the claim that any specific section of the world must get warmer every single year.


"Especially not as long as idiots and jerks like yourself are trumpeting it from every corner."

Keep trolling, you'll convince more people that way.

Robert: What exactly did I say that are you claiming is wrong?

That 'winter' has more than one rigid definition (which I backed up with a dictionary source) and can refer to 'the colder part of the year' in general?

That snowfall is common in the autumn in the northern part of the country (which I backed up with weather data)?

That regional weather has nothing to do with global warming? (which anyone who has read any single article on climate change knows)

Mule has been trolling on this site forever, releasing invectives at anyone who responds to him. Don't validate his claims.

Jacob said...

@Shrinkers,

You're right of course, but it is irritating to find intelligent people like Will who blithely spout that "not yet as hot as the hottest year" is synonymous with "cooling trend." I guess it's even sadder that people will make that claim repeatedly without ever stopping to consider it.

Bart DePalma said...

shrinkers said...

@BDP -"Global warming" does not mean that every spot on the globe will get warmer, and every year at every spot on the planet it will be warmer than it was last year. It means that the average temperature of the planet as a whole will trend warmer, and will increase over time.


You think? And global cooling is when the temperature of the planet as a whole trends downward over time, as it did during the Mauder Minimum or Little Ice Age in the 17th and 18th Centuries and the past decade after solar activity dropped to nothing, even though CO2 emissions soared.

Dude, your manmade global warming cult is completely at odd with the real world. Stay way from the koolaid being offered by the Goracle.

shrinkers said...

@Jacob
You're right of course, but it is irritating to find intelligent people like Will who blithely spout that "not yet as hot as the hottest year" is synonymous with "cooling trend." I guess it's even sadder that people will make that claim repeatedly without ever stopping to consider it.

And yes, you're right too. The thing is, Will truly is intelligent, and I'm certain he's aware that he gave a false impression of the data. But he's old, and figures he'll be dead before the truth catches up to him - and in the meantime, he keeps his own base readership, he remains on the good side of the politicos he likes, and he will sell some books.

And yeah, he has fooled the people he wishes to fool - the same people he's been fooling for years.

Juris said...

@Brian J: "Had I taken your bet, I'd be up $775."

Yeah, and if I'd shorted the stock market on September 10, 2001, I'd be a millionaire. But then again I had no ability to forecast the future with any confidence. And neither did you.

Bart DePalma said...

Jacob:

"Climate change" might be a more useful term, as even Bart understands that the climate has been shifting and weather/termperatures have become more erratic. This effect is of course still deeply connected to a continuing warming trend worldwide.

Nothing about the weather has become more erratic. Temperatures have always bounced up and down, sometimes dramatically, in near lockstep with solar activity with some secondary variation caused by the interaction of solar heat with water vapor in the atmosphere. See my linked historical and satellite data.

Perhaps the silliest contention by the priests of the manmade global warming cult is that global warming is causing the global cooling we are experiencing, with the absurdity of this idea taken to its illogical extreme in the movie "The Day After Tomorrow." Similarly credible science fiction cinema also told us that radiation creates giant man eating spiders and grasshoppers.

Walker said...

Brian Jenkins, brilliant post.

We, the global warming skeptics are certainly now a minority but I have the distinct feeling history is on our side.

I feel like Whitaker Chambers circa 1938.

jgradie said...

Concerning the "start of winter":
The “calendar date” by itself is not important with respect to the start/end of a season, except if you are an astronomer. What is important is the historical record of "earliest and latest snow" or "earliest and latest frost" or "earliest and latest day over (under) temperature T", the “number of continuous days below (above) a given temperature T”, etc. You get the picture.
I suggest to those discussing (arguing) without any facts (but, isn’t that so much more fun!), take a few minutes and go the National Weather Service site (see noaa.gov) and collect a few facts about these quantities (there are many other sites that collect and archive these data). Pretty soon you will see the long term trends (and their derivatives -- calculus not Wall Street kind) that are unequivocal in their message. It does not take Nate Silver's degrees in statistics to see the long term (100s of year) trends and how large the derivatives have become in the last 50 years. A simple Excel spreadsheet is one way to manage the data. By the way, many of these data were collected by the Ben Franklin’s of our country (and the world) not because of any great prescience about global climate change, but a burning desire to find out what the climate was just to begin with! Thanks to them we can now talk about change.

Don said...

HTC is going to save the world from Climate Change!

Robert said...

@shma

Robert: What exactly did I say that are you claiming is wrong?

I assume you are asking in reference to my comment to Mule. I wasn't saying you're wrong, merely that Mule's excuse for being skeptical is ridiculous. On all sides of any major issue, you will find people who are terrible at expressing their side. If the basis for being skeptical about a particular side's viewpoints is that there are "idiots and jerks" in agreement with those viewpoints, then rationally, someone who remains skeptical for this reason can never actually agree with any side, because all sides have "idiots and jerks".

I wasn't implying that Mule is right to call people who accept global climate change, or whatever term we are using now, "idiots and jerks", but rather that it's a totally untenable metric for determining when to be skeptical.

Jacob said...

Shrinkers said...

"Bart then turned off his brain and will not allow any additional thought - and no actual data - to penetrate."



Wow good point shrinkers. Now Bart will not even agree with his own argument.

And he seems to have created a new strawman in the idea that "global warming causes global cooling" is false.

Oh and of course the increasing instances of droughts, hurricanes, and other weather-related phenomena in recent decades are only the inventions of imaginary priests. How does one even respond to that?

Michael (mbw) said...

Anybody who wants a good laugh can click on BdP's "Mauder [sic] Minimum" and "past decade" links. He's just fucking with you.

And once again, solar and greenhouse effects are additive. One bounces around in a way we can't predict but can record on a scale of decades and the other has a huge predictable secular trend. Up to this point the data fit well to a combination of such forcing terms and a feedback multiplier (mainly from water vapor) of about x2. Maybe them italics where what was missing in the previous argument.

Pat said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Persuter said...

Temperatures have always bounced up and down, sometimes dramatically, in near lockstep with solar activity

Mmm. Can you help me out then? Austin's average temperature from June to August was 1.7 degrees higher than the previous record. (Which, of course, was set in 1998 and tied last year.) How is Austin so durned hot when the lack of sunspots apparently caused snow in Boston yesterday?

Not to mention the world sea-surface average temperature is the hottest it's ever been since 1880.

But no, it snowed yesterday in Boston so GLOBAL WARMING IS TEH LIE!

(By the way, on the "omg a Rockies game got snowed out" point, are you aware that yesterday was a record high in Denver?)

Pat said...

And we've degenerated into name calling...

I'll leave you with a couple facts about the OP.

1. IF Global warming was severe enough to call for a geo-engineering solution, SO2 Emissions are an answer. Increased Acid rain and Ozone depletion are likely side effects. Are they worth it?

2. For real world examples, in 1991 Pinatubu erupted. It Ejected 17 Million tons of SO2 into the atmophere. Global temperaters dropped by 0.7 Degrees Farenheit.

Put in Comparison, the United States alone ejected 18 million tons of SO2 in 1999, down from 31 million in 1970.

3. So, it's doable, and the "Negative" effects may not be so bad.

jgradie said...

For those who like to argue trends (and this is a "trendy site" is it not?), why not look at real data that is formatted in ... trends! Then you can argue the statistical significance of facts rather than vapor! How novel!

Go to the following NASA site ( http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/ ) where NASA has compiled the "statistical sampling of temperatures across the globe" over the last 100 years in a systematic and scientific manner. Now that should attract the readers of this site! Oh! But, make sure you look at all the graphs to find the ones that fit your pet theory ... only one pet theory fits, by the way. I hope it is yours.
Cheers.

Pragmatus said...

Walker...

I wish you felt like Whittaker Chambers in 2009.

shma said...

Robert: Sorry, my mistake.

Juris said...

@jgradie: Don't you know enough not to let facts get in the way of a good political argument? NASA?!


(Just kidding. Some of my best relatives have worked with NASA.)

bradams said...

Co-author Steve Dubner wrote a response to the criticism of this chapter. http://bit.ly/2BZRYC

As others have pointed out, I think people need to realize that they are not suggesting geoengineering "instead of" carbon elimination. I think they are saying that carbon elimination is not going to be enough and so let's look at what other plausible alternatives are out there?

I've heard world-renown climate scientists say that even if we cut carbon emissions to zero today that we would continue to feel the effects of man-made global warming for decades. If that's the case, don't we need to come up with plans that not only cut carbon emissions but also ones that reverse the damage already done?

Bart DePalma said...

jgradie said...

Go to the following NASA site ( http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/ ) where NASA has compiled the "statistical sampling of temperatures across the globe" over the last 100 years in a systematic and scientific manner.

Not hardly.

1) This data is limited to surface stations, which have become corrupted by the encroachment of urban heat sources. Hansen over at NASA intentionally omits lower atmospheric temperatures away from the heat sinks measured by satellite.

2) The data published at the NASA site is not even the raw data from the corrupted ground stations, but rather has been revised erroneously and very likely dishonestly to enhance recent temperature increases by NASA's resident global warming Jeremiah James Hansen.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Pragmatus said...

Bart…

Must be nice not to have to work—or think—for a living.

Peter Wolf said...

I understand why people are arguing against the trolls - I fall into this trap far too often myself - but simply put its pointless. I've never seen a single one of them actually change their mind. They can quite happily argue that the sky is blue, or that thousnads of scientist are wrong, and nothing you can do will make a difference. Annoying, and unfortunately Darwin hasn't helped us out yet, but cest la vie.

kimc said...

Bart
Similarly credible science fiction cinema also told us that radiation creates giant man eating spiders and grasshoppers.

did you notice the word "fiction" in "science fiction"?

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Garbage in, garbage out.
~~~~~~~~~~


Exactly! ;)

take care

jgradie said...

BDP say, "Garbage in, garbage out."

Thank you for the insight into the "black box" of your mind. A few tests here and there and I now undertand the inner workings.

It is quite clear, in your case, there is no need for "garbage in" to produce the "garbage out". Reality will continue on its course despite your grasp at straws.

And, by the way, you cannot find nor will you ever present any valid data of the breadth and depth provided by others that refutes the trends in T over the last 120 years, either published by NASA, or in the latest/earliest data published by the NWS and compiled by local organizations across the country who have performed these measurments the same way for centuries. I have given you three independent surveys to use as a basis of fact. You can discount these three if you want, but I challenge you to come up with a single survey of similar breadth and depth in time and space that shows the opposite trends in any parameter. Is the challenge to difficult? Or, are you afraid of what you might find?

shrinkers said...

@Peter Wolf
I understand why people are arguing against the trolls - I fall into this trap far too often myself - but simply put its pointless. I've never seen a single one of them actually change their mind. They can quite happily argue that the sky is blue, or that thousnads of scientist are wrong, and nothing you can do will make a difference.

I think part of the point is to respond to these false and illogical claims - so that if there are people who have not made up their minds, or people who have simply not been exposed to actual evidence, there is a chance to stop some of the spread of this viral nonsense.

Admittedly, one never knows if this desire is achieved - because the people who read but don't post usually, uhm, don't post, and so we can't know what effect the discussion has.

Anyway, I don't think anyone imagines that the trolls will change their minds. It's just difficult to allow the lies and illogic to stand unchallenged.

Bartbuster said...

Dude, your manmade global warming cult is completely at odd with the real world. Stay way from the koolaid being offered by the Goracle.

Dude, your manmade global warming denial is completely at odds with the fact that all the glaciers on the planet are melting, and have been melting for many years. That is global warming. Stay away from the rightwingnut koolaid.

LAW said...

This idea of geoengineering our environmental problems away is completely ridiculous. The Earth's weather system is far, far too complex for any current computing system to simulate the results of these kinds of actions. I've just totally lost respect for Levitt for even proposing such a idiotic idea. Good Lord.

Bart DePalma said...

shrinkers said...

@Peter Wolf I understand why people are arguing against the trolls...

They are not presenting arguments backed by evidence, but rather are generally name calling. I have offered several links to data and offered the scientific errors in the NASA surface dataset. No actual science in return, not even a link to clips from the Nobel and Oscar winning, albeit nearly totally false, "In Inconvenient Truth."

shrinkers said...

Your points have all been answered, Bart. I understand that you choose not to acknowledge that.

You claim that the NASA data is inaccurate because of the encroachment of cities. Provide us some evidence of that claim. Show us the locations where the NASA temperature readings were taken, and show that the location of cities affected it.

Robert said...

"I have offered several links to data and offered the scientific errors in the NASA surface dataset.

1) This data is limited to surface stations, which have become corrupted by the encroachment of urban heat sources. Hansen over at NASA intentionally omits lower atmospheric temperatures away from the heat sinks measured by satellite."

Did you even read the crap you linked to? The paper can be summed up in "the temperature stations are mostly not placed according to the requirements of the organization which placed them, and therefore, all work on this data is unreliable at best"

A) no investigation appears to have actually been made in to whether the data correlates to other known data points, which may or may not have been corrupted in a similar fashion.
B) no proof is actually offered that by failing to meet these requirements, the data is corrupted.

On a grander level, it doesn't even begin to address all the climate change research not based on these possibly corrupted tools. In addition, it even has a graph demonstrating that while the adjusted data does have a steeper slope, both adjusted and unadjusted data has an increasing slope, and doesn't even bother suggesting the possibility that the slope is derived from the supposed errors in placement (IOW, no reason to believe that the slope is untrustworthy, due to the errors being overall constant, akin to the difference between accuracy and precision).

In short, the conclusions are not sustained by the data gathered. All that's been shown is that there may be systemic error, which the scientists using the data have attempted to correct for.

shrinkers said...

@Robert

In addition to the difficulties you mentioned, let's also point out that the docs Bart linked to dealt only with US data. Apparently Bart does not recognize the distinction between "USA" and "Global".

DRStedman said...

Law - "The Earth's weather system is far, far too complex for any current computing system to simulate the results of these kinds of actions."

So I take it you don't believe in human driven worldwide Climate Change at all?

If so, I appreciate that you are anti-Levitt because of his methods, and not because his criticisms of the Climate Change establishment. Most people that are getting on Levitt's case about this are simply upset that he doesn't agree with them to the T.

shrinkers said...

Bart gave a link to his personal blog. There he has an entry claiming that July was a particularly cold month, and therefore there is no such thing as "global warming". There were a number of places in the United States that had record low temps in July.

That blog entry includes a link to the Accuweather site. Upon following that link, one can find that the data has been updated. Here is the updated data http://www.accuweather.com/mt-news-blogs.asp?blog=community&pgUrl=/mtweb/content/weathermatrix/archives/2009/07/update_on_record_lows_highs_rain_status.asp

One can find there that also many sites in the U.S. (admittedly, fewer) also had record high temps in July. One can also find a map of worldwide temps, and see that areas of higher-than-normal temps definitely outweigh areas of lower-than-normal temps for the month of July. Continental US and parts of central Canada were the exception.

Bart, your data shows the opposite of what you wish it to show.

LAW said...

@DRStedman

Why does my assertion that we cannot predict the effect of geoengineering imply that I don't believe in human driven climate change? One involves predicting what will happen in the future, and the other involves analyzing what has already happened. The latter is within the realm of what we can do now, and the former is not.

And as far as predicting the effects of geoengineering, I must stress that we are not even remotely close to having the ability to do this. The idea is so dangerous and ridiculous that I can't imagine who in the scientific community would actually suggest such a thing.

Todd said...

dumping a million tons into the earth's atmosphere can't be a good thing. i love how we want to do something like this when we can't even predict the weather accurately 3 days in advance.

Todd said...

from the epa.gov website:

SO2 contributes to respiratory illness, particularly in children and the elderly, and aggravates existing heart and lung diseases.

SO2contributes to the formation of acid rain, which:

damages trees, crops, historic buildings, and monuments; and
makes soils, lakes, and streams acidic.
SO2 contributes to the formation of atmospheric particles that cause visibility impairment, most noticeably in national parks.
SO2 can be transported over long distances.
SO2 and the pollutants formed from SO2, such as sulfate particles, can be transported over long distances and deposited far from the point of origin. This means that problems with SO2 are not confined to areas where it is emitted.

Davy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
youyou8allofus said...

Great, first the government wants us to all drive prius' and now you want them to shoot sulfur into the air as well?

Look I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist but there are a lot of evidence pointing both ways. How about a more wait and see approach before we completely change all of our habits and shoot more chemicals to the air and then see what the data suggests to do?

And if then the data really does show we need to do something, we should consider all the realms of possabilties including this one, but make sure we understand the consequences of them.

Pat said...

@Todd

Tens of Millions of tons of SO2 are dumped into the earth's atmosphere every year, some of it from natural sources.

So, it's not THAT bad.

Question is, is another 20 million tons of SO2 a year (and the resulting degree drop in temperatures) worth the side effects.

Jon said...

It troubles me that ocean acidification is merely a "p.s." in this post...

Jason Townsend said...

Anyone interested in geoengineering should check out the "Discovery Project Earth" series, which attempts to do proof of concept tests on geoengineering ideas. There are quite a few ideas out there besides the two mentioned here, such as reforestation by dropping seed pods from helicopters, covering glaciers with plastic, and massive space solar power stations which would replace coal power.

There's also a lot of good information on wikipedia about geoengineering for anyone who is interested.

Michael (mbw) said...

There's some confusion in many of these posts about the probable SO2 effects. The point is that it would be injected into the stratosphere. There:
1. It would have a very bad effect in destroying ozone.
2. It would ultimately come down, contributing to acid rain.

On the other hand, the various bad effects of near-surface emissions are irrelevant.

Of course there are also big uncertainties about "unknown unknowns" when you try piling massive intervention on massive intervention.

The people who think they can Humm all they want and have daddy scientists come fix it are acting like spoiled kids.

Bozo said...

No need to shoot sulfur into the air. There's plenty of Chinese Drywall doing it already.

Phil said...

For those interested in a thoughtful and thought-provoking discussion on sequestration methods, check out the Carbon Capture and Sequestration Technologies Program at MIT

http://sequestration.mit.edu/

Bart DePalma said...

Robert said...

BD: This [NASA] data is limited to surface stations, which have become corrupted by the encroachment of urban heat sources. Hansen over at NASA intentionally omits lower atmospheric temperatures away from the heat sinks measured by satellite."

On a grander level, it doesn't even begin to address all the climate change research not based on these possibly corrupted tools.


OK, let's put the burden of proof where it belongs - on the proponents of the manmade global warming hypothesis.

1) Show me a single computer simulation you allege proves the manmade global warming hypothesis which successfully explained past actual atmospheric temperatures or successfully predicted future actual temperatures within a statistically valid range.

2) Show me an analysis that demonstrates a statistically valid causal relationship between the exponentially rising manmade CO2 emissions and the bouncing atmospheric temperatures.

Good luck with that.

Peter Wolf said...

@BdP

OK, let's put the burden of proof where it belongs - on the proponents of the manmade global warming hypothesis.


1)The Greenhouse Effect is completely and utterly proven.
2)CO2 has been absolutely proven to be a Greenhouse Gas.
3)CO2 levels are known absolutely definitely to have risen massively since th Industrial Revolution.

None of these statements is in any way, shape or form under dispute.

So, you put those 3 together, and what do you get?

4)Rising temperatures assuming no feedback effects

and what do we have?

5)Measurements showing temperature rises, and huge evidence in the natural environment of heat rise effects.

You don't get this, and no matter how many straw men you throw up it doesn't matter...what is under dispute at all, and the reasons for model disparities, are the precise quantity of feedback effects. No credible scientist doubts the basic science: ref, for instance, the IPCC.

Randy Cox said...

Seems to me that geoengineering + the law of unintended consequences = potential for major shitstorm.

What hubris, that we think that we can solve a problem not by removing the cause of that problem, but by just rejiggering the equations to our liking.


Well said. Or, the short version:

It's not nice to fuck with Mother Nature

Michael (mbw) said...

@BdP
(Really, more @ everybody else who might actually want info)
Check the figure on the lower right of page 69 of Scientific American Aug. 2007 issue. The models including anthropogenic forcing are within the error bars for global, land, ocean, and 6 continents for the last century. The models without this term are within similar error bars of the data for nowhere.
Actually, it's worth reading the whole article.

Jon said...

Bart DePalma,

You wrote "Last year it snowed in Dubai, Iraq, South Africa and China for the first time in decades or longer."

I'm amazed no one else seems to have challenged you on any of those yet. Here is a link to news coverage of snow falling in South Africa in 2006 - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14154793/. Obviously any snow in South Africa last year wasn't the first snow in South Africa in decades.

Also, regarding China, I suspect it has snowed in China every year in living memory. Have you never heard of the Harbin International Ice and Snow Sculpture Festival? Perhaps you had some place in Southern China in mind but what you wrote is simply wrong.

Robert said...

"OK, let's put the burden of proof where it belongs - on the proponents of the manmade global warming hypothesis."

That's not where it belongs. It belongs on the people who refuse to accept the evidence that's been presented thus far. You even know this, which is why you attempted (and failed, hence your backup attempt here) to show that the data relied upon is faulty. Not only have you failed to show that the data is faulty, but now, you are claiming, you don't even need to question the data, because it's conclusions were never proven to your satisfaction to begin with.

However, if this was factual, you wouldn't have ever felt the need to question the data upon which the conclusions were drawn, because you would attack the conclusions themselves.

In the scientific community, the burden of proof is always upon the dissenter. When people believed that the Earth was the center of the solar system, it was those who believed otherwise who were expected to prove their belief. Now, because everyone (including, I hope, yourself) recognizes that the sun is the center of the solar system, the burden of proof to show that the Earth was the center would be on the dissenter, again.

Climate change deniers are the dissenters, and the burden of proof to show fallacies in the accepted scientific findings falls upon them. You know this, or you would never have suggested that there was anything wrong with the theory, you would have just sat back and said "prove it" to begin with. But instead, you attempted to offer reasons why people should be skeptical, because you understood that to be your job as the dissenter.

Canada Guy said...

Here's a summary of some of the environmental threats to our oceans. The way things are going, there could be no fish left in the oceans in as little as 40 years.

http://selfdestructivebastards.blogspot.com/2009/10/our-oceans-are-dying.html

Oh, and geoengineering is crazy:

http://selfdestructivebastards.blogspot.com/2009/10/geoengineering-madness.html

bsomerville said...

I emailed Greg Craven (of the "How It All Ends" Youtube videos and the book "What's the Worst That Could Happen?") for his comment on this chapter of the Levitt and Dubner book. He gave me permission to share his reply.

October 29, 12:24am

My comment is, um...whatever sound you make when you're terrified, vindicated, disgusted, and resigned all at once. They've made the classic, tragic, predictable (and predicted) leap of the skeptic from "It's not a problem," directly to "It's too big of a problem to do anything about." Advocating geoengineering without having first (and concurrently) thrown your entire being, reputation, and life force into a herculean effort to mobilize humanity into a crash program to remake our energy economy into a low carbon one is the height of madness, as well as intellectual disingenuousness of almost treasonable degree. To conclude that the risks to humanity of radical and active experimentation on the climate are both better known *and* of lesser magnitude than a radical restructuring of our energy economy will go down in history as the final, condemning judgment of humankind's collective fitness for survival.

And you can quote me on that. Shout it from the rooftops of the world, if you have the drive. I haven't the energy or heart to blog on this topic any longer. I've cast my die with the book, given humanity the best I have to offer, and now must leave humanity to do what it will with it, while I finally focus on preserving my family.

How's that for an off-the-cuff, unfiltered answer? :-)

Greg

Lehman said...

without China and India on board with reducing their CO2, this amount to us tying our hands and feet and trying run a 100 meter dash, financially speaking. Why should we handicap our economy to "save the planet" when such measures will have a neglible effect on the "climate change?" To set an example that those two countries won't follow? So that we can sit smugly by and watch them lap us in the marketplace? Not to sound totally mercenary, the potential damage to the economy isn't worth that potential result.

Stephen said...

There are some very big names advocating geo-engineering. One of the most fascinating is Martin Weitzman, who argues for speedy GW action because there is a small but non-negligible chance that temperatures might rise to catastrophic levels. E.g. http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/weitzman/files/Cournot%2528Weitzman%2529.pdf: “The paper builds to a tentative conclusion that, no matter what else is done realistically to slow CO2 buildups, economic analysis lends some support to undertaking
serious research now into the prospects of .fast geoengineering preparedness..as a
state-contingent emergency option o¤ering at least the possibility of knocking down
catastrophic temperatures rapidly.”
I ask you, and other subscribers to Weitzman's view: has any of the most probative geo-engineering options themselves been subjected to appropriate risk analysis? Might they, as Weitzman would have it for GW itself, be "fat-tailed"? It's fascinating how eagerly some people seem to be willing to throw potential gasoline onto this very evident fire.

Michael Odza said...

In a talk sponsored by the Santa Fe Institute, —"Ulam Lectures honoring Murray Gell-Mann's 80th birthday: Twilight of the Anthropocene: The Fate of Civilization in the Face of Environmental Destruction," Speaker: Dr. Daniel Schrag, head of one of Harvard's climate study centers, said that we need to do everything that we can think of, because we do know some things about what is happening, and while we don't know whether we'll get a worst-case scenario or just the very bad case, we know we're likely to get ocean levels rising 10-30 feet! Not just the 2-3 ft. (enough to flood most of Florida, Bangladesh, etc.) which the IPCC report had to publish, because the REPORT was political, and therefore had to use the mildest possible language, -- and because the science was already two to three years out of date. (The higher ocean rise estimate comes largely from the melting of the Greenland ice, and 1/3 to 1/2 of the Antarctic ice.) The point of the geo-engineering is to buy us some time before tens of millions of people are displaced, to build up the renewables, figure out how to sequester carbon safely, etc. One new idea is to inject water vapor into the atmosphere. The virtue of this is that it reflects sunlight decently, is cheap, would seem to have fewer harmful effects than sulfur, and most importantly of all to those of us who fear the consequences of our fixes, it only stays in the atmosphere a relatively short time, and therefore is a completely reversible approach. But again, the problem is so large and all evidence is suggesting we keep underestimating how large it is, that we have to try everything!

bayowolf said...

"Levitt and Dubner argue will be cheaper and more practical than a substantial reduction in carbon emissions." If the *only* benefit of reducing carbon emissions is the reduction of global warming, then the above assertion *may* be valid. However, a switch to a sustainable, renewable energy economy (with its ancillary reduction of carbon emissions) will have benefits other than a redution of global warming (not the least of which is a reduction of our dependence on unreliable, dangerous or unstable foreign sources for our energy). Therefore, a cost-benefit analysis of the two scenarios (geoengineering or a switch to renewable energy sources) will clearly favor the switch.

erin said...

don't ya'll know they have already implemented this strategy?? ever heard of chemtrails??

tariely said...

101 Далматинец 2 - Приключения Патча в Лондоне мультфильм / 101 Dalmatians II: Patch's London Adventure
Электронная почта без регистрации