10.02.2009

Disband the IOC!

Congratulation to Rio de Janeiro, which will host the 2016 Summer Olympics, having beaten out Madrid, Tokyo, and my former hometown of Chicago for the honor. Rio will be a worthy place to hold the Games, as any of these cities would have been. Nevertheless, it's worth considering whether the IOC is as just as it could be and what role this played in the defeat of Chicago and the other cities.

Here are the home continents of the 108 current IOC members:



Europe, needless to say, has a very healthy representation. Although North America has 12 percent of the seats, the United States itself has just 2 out of 108 -- as many as Morocco, and fewer than tiny countries such as the Netherlands (3) or Switzerland (5) or the much less populous Australia (3). The United States is not the only country which is underrepresented -- China, which represents about one-fifth of the world's population, also has just 2 seats, although the number rises to 4 if you count Hong Kong and Taiwan. Japan has just 2 seats, as does Brazil; India, the second-most populous country in the world, has only 1.

Aggregating things back up at the continental level, we see that it's Asia that is especially underrepresented:



Arguably, however, this is not the right metric. We can look at something like the number of participating athletes in Beijing instead:



This is quite a bit more proportionate. Likewise with the number of medal winners:



On the other hand, it's money that makes the world go round -- especially in the Olympics -- so perhaps rights fees should be taken into account instead. And there, North America takes the cake -- the United States itself pays in about half of all broadcast rights fees for the Summer Olympics.



If we average these four metrics, we get the following:



Asia and North America can make a good case for more representation; Europe and Africa should probably have less. It's extremely bizarre, for instance, that Africa has almost as much representation on the IOC as Asia when Asia has about four times as many people, sends twice as many athletes to the games, and wins six times as many medals.

If we were using this formula to determine the number of seats for the United States in particular, it would argue for 20 seats of the 108 -- not the 2 they actually hold. And were that the case, Chicago would very possibly have won the Olympics, rather than being the first country eliminated. Here were the voting totals by round:


We see that Rio's total exploded in Round 2 after Chicago was eliminated -- almost all of the people who had voted for Chicago originally transfered their votes to Rio -- and then again in Round 3 after Tokyo was ousted (somewhat bizarrely, Tokyo actually lost two votes from Round 1 to Round 2 after Chicago was eliminated). Had Rio been the first eliminated rather than Chicago, those votes might have gone to Chicago instead. And, obviously, if there were a more proportionate number of delegates from the United States, Chicago's chances would have been very strong.

The headline aside, the IOC probably does not need to be disbanded. But we should recognize that the organization is in essence a cartel, and sets the rules as it pleases -- and has goals that appear to be pretty far removed from any sort of proportionate representation of its member countries. A number of relatively obvious reforms could be adopted:

1) Apportion IOC membership on a formula basis, in reflection of population, participation, revenues, and possibly other objective metrics;
2) Publish the votes of individual IOC members;
3) Adopt a true Instant runoff voting system, rather than let the delegates switch their votes from round to round, which increases the likelihood of gamesmanship and deal-making;
4) Adopt a rule, as FIFA uses for the World Cup, that the Summer Olympics cannot be held on the same continent on successive occasions (something which has not happened since 1948/1952 anyway, when London and Helsinki hosted the games in consecutive Olympiads).

139 comments

Zachary said...

Too bad for Chicago

JD said...

"It's extremely bizarre, for instance, that Africa has almost as much representation on the IOC as Africa".

The mind boggeleth.

Fire Brian Lenihan said...

I'm sorry Nate, but I think you just threw in the "money" one to increase North America's share in the "final" tally.

Representation in the IOC should be done, and appears largely to be done, on the basis of actual athletics participation and achievement. If America ends up underrepresented in this regard, well- tough. Chicago wasn't the best bid and adding arbitrary statistics to the mix in order to boost a theoretical American total isn't going to change that.

Rio had a significant advantage, in that it was offering the first ever Olympics on a continent, in a rapidly developing country with a both nationally and internationally popular leader. Obama, of course, is internationally popular but I just don't think Chicago deserved the games.

While half the competitors in the Olympics are Europeans, and half the medals, Europe should continue to have a lot of influence over the IOC.

Inferno said...

I predict this post will be full of reasoned discussion and no one taking this as deathly serious. And certainly, no one will flame you for suggesting that the IOC be disbanded.

Also, I predict that no one will proofread this post and tell you what grammatical errors you made. ;)

I was thinking, though - isn't part of the reason that Europe is "overrepresented" because they have a bunch of small countries, though? It's kind of like how, to use a US analogy, the Senate "over-represents" small states because every state gets the same allotment of seats, regardless of population/contribution to the economy/etc., etc.

Ditto for Africa - though they're an underrepresented constituency at the Olympic level, for the most part. (Outside of Track & Field, you rarely see any Africans.)

I don't know whether votes for Rio would translate to votes for Chicago, though. To be perfectly honest - I don't think the rest of the world is that fond of us, Obama notwithstanding. And it's 8 years away. And 9 months ago, we had President Bush. I have a feeling that a lot of the rest of the world is skeptical of us electing - say - President Palin in 2012 and her going off on a rambling speech.

tl;dr - Honestly, even if the representation had been proportional, I don't know whether the US would have stood a chance.

Davy said...

Not surprising really. Blagoyehvitch kinda soured the whole thing for Chi-town. Rio is actually a pretty good pick.

markymark said...

very interesting stuff. I wonder if Chicago could ever have really won. It feels at least with hindsight as if the IOC wanted to break ground in South America. Chicago seemed to figure it might be nice to have the Olympics relatively late on. And its not like the South Americans on the IOC make a powerful voting bloke, all 9 of them!

Juris said...

Ahhh, JD beat me to it regarding the typo.

As for me, I wish Chicago had won but I think it was long past time for the Olympics to go to South America and Rio is the perfect spot for it there.

Tens of thousands will now go, as I once did, in search of the "Girl from Ipanema".

MarkinIL said...

I think the vote totals are interesting cause it does suggest that Chicago may have actually gotten second rather than fourth place. It seems like Chicago and Rio were fighting over the same basic voters. Kind of like a liberal 3rd party candidate pulling votes from a Democrat.

dondiaglo said...

The fact that Tokyo's vote count went down in the second round would seem to indicate to me that a minimum of two Tokyo votes were cast solely to prevent it from being last in the first round. The actually number of such votes was probably a little higher, unless not a single Chicago voter went for Tokyo on the second round.

Did these voters do so simply to make sure Chicago didn't make it out of the first round? Would it have mattered anyway? At the very least, I think an instant runoff voting system would be beneficial to limit the possibility of any such manipulation.

Phillip said...

Any more excuses you want to make for Obama's failure, Nate?

Kevin said...

you know, I think a game theory analysis of how much switching votes should occur, and how likely that is to affect the outcome would be really interesting here. or at least, an analysis of the voting method under the assumption people are always voting for their top remaining choice.

fava said...


And were that the case, Chicago would very possibly have won the Olympics, rather than being the first country eliminated.

Actually the National Olympic Committees have to sit out any round that their country is in on. So the proposed 20 US delegates would not have been allowed to vote. Therefore the results would not have changed.

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

On the issue of proportion of medals/participation, that only favors Europe because each nation gets to send an equal sized delegation. That is, in sports like sprints and swimming, the US might have 8 of the top 10 athletes, but only the top 2-3 will go in any event. Plus, there has been a conscious attempt to add events over the years to keep European nations happy (things like canoeing, where there's something like 6 medal events but only a handful of central European nations focus on it). The Olympics have been Euro-centric since Baron de Coubritand(sp) first dreamt them up as a way to let upper class amatuers have fun with each other.

Jason Henriksen said...

I read that one of the reasons people voted against US hosting of the games is that it's a pain in the ass to get through all the passport/security/anti-terrorism BS. I completely agree.

I mean really, if you run around glowering at people and treating everyone as if they're a potential enemy, they aren't really going to be keen on being your buddy.

The US is extremely unfriendly to foreigners right now. Is it any surprise they don't want to come hang out with us?

Gracchus said...

Hey Nate, here's an idea for a better headline:

"Blogger outraged that his shitty hometown doesn't get to host the Olympics, creates arbitrary ranking system to improve its chances"

Davy said...

Hey, whatdya know? Only nine comments in before a f*&#king conservatroll shows up. We must be slipping.

Polymeron said...

While I do not pretend to have read every single post on this blog, I do think this is the first time Nate has mentioned IRV.
In that regard, I'd be interested in knowing his thoughts about its possible application in regard to House, Senate, and Presidential races.

Regarding the topic at hand: I also think that athlete participation should be the determining metric here.

Barney said...

If sports were democratic, the side with more players would always win.

Robert said...

I'm not too disappointed. I think Rio games will be cool, and they deserved a shot.

And fortunately, Rio isn't on the other side of the planet so maybe we can have less tape-delayed coverage and more live.

Or was tape-delay-editing the only thing making the Olympics tolerable anymore? I'm not sure.

MM Las Vegas said...

Nate ... Do you know any Taiwanese? Please ask them what they think of you suggesting Taiwan is part of "China". Ask them why China demands Taiwan get labeled as "Chinese Taipei" in the Olympics. Explain to them why you think their free-market, democratic, freedom loving, America worshiping, happy island nation is really just another vote for commie fascist China.

... "China, which represents about one-fifth of the world's population, also has just 2 seats, although the number rises to 4 if you count Hong Kong and Taiwan."

Eric said...

I was hoping this would happen, mainly for the reasons listed here.

Dwight said...

Two things:

>> (somewhat bizarrely, Tokyo actually lost two votes from Round 1 to Round 2 after Chicago was eliminated).

Perhaps not bizarrely if one considers the possibility of some gutsy strategic voting to get Rio's only real contender out in the first ballot?

But, setting aside what continents are represented by how many votes, I think it one would do well to look at how many Games have been awarded in North America (with and without Winter Games, Winter Games being a little more dicy due to relatively limited potential hosts).

I think that speaks volumes about whether or not NA really needs a boost in votes. ;)

P.S. Rio is definitely going to be an interesting games in so many ways. From their rocking atmosphere, to the mind numbing poverty backdrop, to the region's always-on-the-cusp-of-economic-breakout.

Mike in Maryland said...

A couple of things to remember:

The IOC rules state that if a country has a site in the running, that country can't vote.

This means that in the first round, the delegates from Brazil, Spain, Japan and the United States were prohibited from voting.

In the second round, the delegates from Brazil, Spain and Japan were prohibited from voting.

In the third round, the delegates from Brazil and Spain were prohibited from voting.

Since the IOC doesn't give a delegate by delegate breakdown of votes, it would be impossible to say who voted for which site in each round. Inferences could be made, but nothing definitive.

As to why Chicago didn't win? I think a lot of it was because:
- Squaw Valley held Winter Games in 1960
- Mexico City held Summer Games in 1968
- Montreal (Summer Games) in 1976
- Lake Placid held Winter Games in 1980
- Los Angeles (Summer Games) in 1984
- Calgary (Winter Games) in 1988
- Atlanta (Summer Games) in 1996
- Salt Lake City (Winter Games) in 2002
- and Vancouver will hold Winter Games in 2010.

So in a span of 14 Olympiads, there have been (or will have been) 9 Olympiacs held in North America.

Maybe the IOC wants to 'spread the wealth' a bit?

Also remember, when Atlanta 'won' the 1996 Summer Games, they didn't actually give accurate information on a couple of points - one being the temperature during the Games. Instead of providing the average high and low temperature at the sites, the Atlantic Organizing Committee gave the median daily temperature as recorded at the airport. Atlanta was one of the first cities to be recognized as having an urban heat dome, while the airport is generally outside that heat dome. As a result of the temperature shenanigans of Atlanta, the IOC takes a bit closer look at some of the information.

Also, remember, it was the financial payoffs of IOC members when SLC won the 2002 Winter Games that caused the prohibition on IOC members traveling to proposed site cities.

Both Atlanta and Salt Lake City are in the US, and those 'incidents' are fairly recent. I'm sure many members of the IOC remember them personally. I'm sure that those two incidents, especially, helped influence the decision they made on which city to vote for, or against.

Mike in Maryland

Dwight said...

Incidentally, if one was to go by the books Lords of The Rings and The New Lords of the Rings, there should at least be a good portion of the IOC stood up blindfolded against the figurative wall. ;)

In this case though I think Rio is an excellent decision. A little risk, perhaps. But screw it, nothing ventured nothing gained.

info junkie said...

for someone who approaches these things through scentific, sophisticated and (often) compelling analysis, I for once don't follow Nate's analysis at all.

there are no> transfers!

chicago votes did not 'transfer', any more than other cities' votes did. after each round, every *single* voter gets to change their mind, if they so wish - not just those who voted for the eliminated city.

this matters - cities who don't want to be eliminated in the first round with a handful of votes can campaign for people's first votes, being honest and direct that they can't win.

the bid to avoid international humiliation with, say, 5 votes is successful. it can mean that other cities that are "everyone's second favourite" then fall out in the first round.

plus, at each round the small number of votes on the IOC from the nation bidding that then gets eliminated can start to vote, too.

which is why the totals move around.

it's a lot more complicated than it looks.

kurt said...

It is so strange to me how this can be spun as a major defeat for Obama.. even by the mainstream media. I mean, aren't they supposed to be in his pocket %110?

From a historical perspective, it should be clear to anyone who follows the olympics beyond a 2 week window that Rio was the
OVERWHELMING favorite for the games in 2016.

2012 France vs. London was far closer and more of a surprise.

Jose said...

I think one reason the US did not get it is the same reason you said it should have get if for: the money.

The IOC (as well as FIFA and others) are transiting a fine line in which they have to balance the emotional appeal of sports with the need for money. The US usually only brings the latter (except for local sports, baseball, american football, hockey, and basketball).

Brazil in 2016 (and South Africa World Football Cup in 2010) will bring the extra bit of emotion that make these events memorable.

In particular, among football fans the 1994 World Cup is remembered as the worst in a long time.

Downes said...

I didn't hear Americans complaining when Salt Lake City organizers bribed delegates in order to win selection.

I haven't heard complaining when the Olympics were awarded to Los Angeles, Lake Placid, Squaw Valley, Los Angeles (again), Atlanta, Lake Placid (again)...

Daniel said...

Nobody should be considering Hong Kong and Taiwan's representatives to be rolled in with the Chinese total. Official policy aside, they are both separate territories whose national interests, even in the sphere of sport, are often at odds with those of the Mainland.

(I would note the situation of Taiwan in particular, which at China's insistence is prohibited by all international sporting regulation bodies from even competing under its own name in, being made instead to suffer the designation "Chinese Taipei".)

nb said...

love the blog, but Chicago is either your "former home" or your "hometown." Not sure how it could be your "former hometown," unless you had some existential severing of ties.

shiloh said...

Jason Henriksen said...

I read that one of the reasons people voted against US hosting of the games is that it's a pain in the ass to get through all the passport/security/anti-terrorism BS. I completely agree.
~~~~~~~~~~


Soooo, as it turns out, Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda won a great victory and America lost as we had to totally change our way of life re: privacy and freedom and kowtow to the terrorists by creating the Dept. of Homeland Security.

and why does Limbaugh and the rest of the yahoo wingers hate America by rooting against America getting the Olympics.

and why wasn't there a fuss by limbo, etc. re: Bush when NY did not get the 2012 Olympics, hmm

Now for the good news! There's no place like Rio. Visited on my first USN cruise, March 20 to March 27, 1978, not that I have a vivid memory. ;) Ipanema, Copacabana, Christ the Redeemer, Carnival, Tijuca Forest, Sugarloaf mountain.

Did I mention there's no place like Rio.

carry on

p.s. Indeed, why do Republicans root against America! ;)

y2roby said...

"In particular, among football fans the 1994 World Cup is remembered as the worst in a long time."

Why? I've never heard this before.

Nate Kaufman said...

Reminds me of the Security Council...

Mike said...

Antarctica is tragically underrepresented. Shame on the IOC.

Jeff said...

I'm inclined to cut Obama some slack on this. But what's odd about this is the sheer surprise at the White House. They clearly expected to win, if you read Jack Tapper's interview with Emmanuel. I suspect that they thought the first black president, who has been very enthusiastically greeted in Africa (and rightly so), would have the African delegates locked up. But it looks like anti-Americanism won out. Turns out it wasn't just Bush they hated after all. (In fact, oddly enough, Bush was probably more popular in Africa than anywhere else, from what I've read.) I hope the President learns something from this.

bleepul said...

Yeah, I kind of feel sorry Obama myself and I don't support him. I think his wife's narcissism sunk him on this one.

No matter what it deflates the myth that they know exactly what they are doing at all times ... you know, the rationale a lot of you throw out for what's happening in health-care ... that they've got some secret strategy. I think today shows they don't ... hence the dismay. Icarus.

loner said...

The 1984 Olympics would have been better had the Soviets participated (boycotts suck), but you can't have everything. They were a huge plus for my hometown so I sympathize with people in and from the Chicago area on their failed bid. No doubt Chicago would have done itself proud.

The 1994 World Cup was great given where I was then. I was sharing a house not too many miles north of Palo Alto, CA (among other things the game between eventual winner Brazil and USA in the 2nd Round on July 4th was played there) with a couple. The guy was an Italian immigrant whose mother was staying with us (and cooking for us) during that period. I must admit that I've found the games in subsequent World Cups more entertaining. Better games? Less tension with only a vague rooting interest given USA prospects? Italy lost the final to Brazil in a shootout afer a 0-0 game in regulation in 1994. Very tense.

In thinking back on the Olympics, I've always wondered if it's one of those things where age and/or involvement (however peripheral) determines favorites. The 1984 games may have saved the whole thing as an enterprise for cities/countries by showing how they could be hosted at a profit and they took place in my hometown, but I knew even then that I'd never be as emotionally invested in the games themselves as I was in those that took place in Montreal in 1976 and Lake Placid in 1980. I was 18 and then 21.

Hopefully, I'll be around in 2012 to choke up a bit over the closing statement: I declare the Games of the 30th Olympiad closed, and in accordance with tradition, I call upon the youth of the world to assemble four years from now at Rio de Janeiro, to celebrate with us there the Games of the XXXI Olympiad and then again in 2016 to watch the youth of the world compete and a city and country do itself proud. Congratulations to the Brazilian people.

loner said...

I hope the President learns something from this.

I hope he doesn't.

Sean said...

This recommendation of IRV is highly irresponsible given the number of problems it encounters. Although it is closest to the series of runoffs currently used, it is an incredibly poor system given the alternatives. A much better system would be Range (Score) voting, with each delegate submitting a vote.
I recommend a look at the CRV website for more info.

darvish said...

I really hate the ad on the top right that asks you to beat up Obama. It is offensive, to me at least.

Jason Townsend said...

Rather than Instant Runoff Voting, it would be better to use Condorcet voting. This is totally analogous from the perspective of the voter (you have to provide an ordered list of your preference across all candidates), but the scoring method avoids the problems of IRV. In particular, there are cases where voting for something can cause it to lose in IRV. Condorcet instead looks at the preference of the voters when comparing each pair of candidates. The candidate which wins a head to head in all cases is the winner. If there is not an undisputed winner, there are various tiebreaker methods available.

masanf said...

You gotta love it. If this had been anyone but Barack Obama who had suffered a humiliating defeat of his own making, there would not be one single solitary word about changing the voting procedures. But since the American Messiah was humiliated, well it must be an inherent problem with the voting procedure. How else to explain the stinging defeat of the most popular man to ever walk the face of the earth?


As with everything else this man does, he tried to turn it into a referendum on him. He bashed Bush and even made the argument, apparently with a straight face, that one of the reasons Chicago should get the Olympics is because the way the world came together in the city to celebrate his election. You can't make this stuff up. Seriously, if you looked up narcissism in the dictionary, you would see a picture of Obama. He and his loathsome wife are, without doubt, the most conceited, self-centered pair of jackasses to ever occupy the Oval Office.


The following headline to an article in the Times of London best sums up what today's humiliation means:

"Obama’s Olympic failure will only add to doubts about his presidency."

The president of the United States just embarrassed himself and the country, all in a bid to enrich the most corrupt polical machine in the United States. But then again, when the guy is willing to film commercials for a cable sitcom, you begin to doubt whether he even has a capacity to feel embarrassed over anything.

shiloh said...

Jeff said...

But it looks like anti-Americanism won out.
~~~~~~~~~~


So one equates a decision made by IOC members awarding a city the Olympic games to world opinion re: Obama.

hmm

Obama was going to be damned by the far right media, which now speaks for 90% of Reps, either way, whether he went or stayed home, unless Chicago got the games, today's far right politics being the way they are ie they apparently hate America er Obama. OK, Obama is president, so they hate America!

As regards to Obama's world popularity as I posted yesterday:

Obama reverses the way the world sees America

Obama’s popularity higher than ever in Canada: poll

Obama vs. Osama: The president's popularity brings the terrorist out of his cave

Poll: Obama's Popularity Lifts U.S. Global Image

Barack Obama's popularity soars - in Germany

Obama Rockets to Top of Poll on Global Leaders

A Pew Survey First: U.S. President More Popular than Bin Laden in Most Muslim Nations

'nuf said!

It's not surprising Rio won as they are the first S.A. city to ever be awarded the games, but Obama and his team did have great expectations. In the larger picture not that important as Obama lost his first bid for Congress in 2000 to Bobby Rush by a 2 to 1 margin and (8) years later he's elected president.

So yes Virginia, Obama does not walk on water and has experienced defeat and rebounds quite well as his father left him at an early age and was later raised by his grandparents ie he's flexible and adaptable and always thinkin' Big Picture!

As Judy Garland said, behind every cloud, is another cloud! ;)

shiloh said...

masanf said...

Jibberish!
~~~~~~~~~~


One is truly clueless.

take care

p.s. Obama is still president for another 3+ er 7+ years ...

Jeff said...

Shiloh,
I didn't say Obama was unpopular. I said America was. But thanks for the information - that was quite a little research project for you.

Brad Engelmann said...

I agree with a previous poster on the matter of Taiwan. It is shocking to see on this article that Mr. Silver suggests that perhaps Taiwan's total should be added to China. That is beyond obtuse. Amazing.

Obliterati said...

Look on the bright side: during the boring events, NBC can cut to live coverage of the constant, running gun battles between Brazilian troops and drug gangs in the slums of Rio.

And Brazil has the second highest kidnapping rate in the world, which could provide plenty of drama as well.

So it's all good.

shiloh said...

Jeff said...

Shiloh,
I didn't say Obama was unpopular. I said America was. But thanks for the information - that was quite a little research project for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~


No, as I said Obama had great expectations, which didn't mean the other cities weren't also deserving, which they were. In fact, financially, Tokyo had the best package, not the U.S. and many other factors go into the decision, of course, w/S. America never having held the games being a big factor.

And won't even ask you for source material re: anti-Americanism, because on its face as regards to the IOC vote is utter nonsense.

Whereas I'm sure each IOC voter has their own agenda, anti-Americanism did not enter into their equation. Supposedly, it was African votes the U.S. was counting on that went to Japan instead.

It was Rio's turn whether America came in 4th or 2nd.

take care

AngoraFish said...

So, in order to come up with some pseudo-rational justification for awarding North America (ie US) another Olympics after the vastly disporportionate number it's already had, we can play around with the statistics until we find a result that arbitrarily, marginally, improves the argument for doing so. Meh.

Who'd have thunk that conflating together medals, media rights and number of athletes, all of which are essentially proxies for economic power, would result in an argument in favor of increasing US influence over the IOC.

Davy said...

There was nothing political in this decision. Games have never been held in South America. It was time to go to Rio. Obama was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If he hadn't gone to Copenhagen, he would have been blamed for losing the bid.

shiloh said...

Obliterati said...

NBC can cut to live coverage of the constant, running gun battles between Brazilian troops and drug gangs in the slums of Rio.

And Brazil has the second highest kidnapping rate in the world, which could provide plenty of drama as well.
~~~~~~~~~~


When we visited March 1978, Rio's crime rate was high and their economy was in shambles which meant the exchange rate for dollars to Cruzeiro favored Americans big time.

There were no incidents during our stay there, so as you say, it was all good! :)

Much can change in (7) years as it could get better or it could implode ...

NU'69 said...

This article is nothing but sour grapes. On the other hand, as a resident of the Chgo burbs, I'm happy as hell at the result. Especially at the first round defeat. And there are plenty here that agree with me.

Spencer said...

Aside from the arbitrary way you've decided the criteria and weighting of how many votes should belong to each continent, and whether or not votes by continent is even a good way of measuring proportional representation...

IOC members from candidate countries abstain from voting unless and until that country is eliminated, so if the US has more IOC representation it wouldn't necessarily equate to more votes for the US (assuming that each member would vote for their home country).

Also, you're making a HUGE assumption in saying that each IOC member actually votes for the country they want to have the Olympics. In reality, many members may symbolically vote for a different country in the early rounds in order to make it appear that the different country's bid has more support that it really does (e.g. a Spaniard that wants Rio but votes Spain in the early rounds because they want Spain to be the runner-up instead of eliminated first). Then in following rounds they may vote for their actual country of choice, on the assumption that their votes may actually be the deciding vote in the final rounds.

My apologies if someone else has already mentioned these points, but I got to this post 5 hours late and don't have the energy at the moment to read all the comments.

Ben Weiss said...

This outcome is reminiscent me of a Yogi Berra quote on a St. Louis restaurant: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

Point being, if an IOC delegate favored Chicago, but _assumed_ that it would easily survive to the second round, they would have felt free to vote for a different city on the first round. And if enough people did this, it would cause Chicago to fall on the first round, which is exactly what happened.

This is precisely the argument for Condorcet or instant-runoff voting; it allows voters to express support for a third-party candidate without hurting the presumed frontrunner.

David said...

I think the following things are great:

- that Rio won;
- that Obama went to represent America, showing the same respect and commitment as all the other finalists, all of whom sent their heads of state as well; and
- that the US loss was cheered deliriously by conservatives, proving once again that they put party ahead of country.

Michael (mbw) said...

Sorry to go off topic, but the old Strategic Vision thread is pretty cold. Here's what I just posted there.

Hey, this is a little late. But I removed the lowest Fourier component and the even-odd split from the SV and Quin data. See ecarlson's nice comment for a clear explanation of the process and its rationale.

Quin was left with variance 0.56 times the statistical expectation. That was not a statistically significant deviation even at the p=0.1 level

SV had remaining variance 4.40 times the statistical expectation. That was statistically significant at the p=0.00014 level.

I think SV is screwed, but others should check my math. This was done from scratch in Basic, which must seem comical to more up-to-date types.

Mike in Maryland said...

shiloh said...
Obama was going to be damned by the far right media, which now speaks for 90% of Reps, either way, whether he went or stayed home, unless Chicago got the games,

Starting some time in the past, Limpballs had four scenarios set up for today, two if Chicago lost:

1. (in case President Obama went) Why did BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA [his literal words - President Obama's full name, no title, repeating his name, and emphasizing his name by practically shouting it] waste his time on a losing cause? or

2. (in case President Obama didn't go) Why did 'THE MESSIAH' not go and turn a losing bid into a winning bid?

And two if Chicago won the bid:

1. (in case President Obama went) Why did Obama waste his time on a winning cause? or

2. (in case President Obama did not go) Why didn't 'THE MESSIAH' go when it was not a certain winning bid?

(I'm sure he breathed a sigh of relief on this one when President Obama announced he was going to go, as it was his weakest point.)

(Add in that Limpballs had two of his scenarios taken out when President Obama decided earlier this week that he would be going to Copenhagen.)

Mike in Maryland

Mike in Maryland said...

Spencer,

Do we even have to point out the internal fallacy of you argument about a Spaniard supporting Rio voting for Madrid in the first round?

If Madrid is on the ballot, the Spaniard can't vote, as you explained in your second paragraph (except that they don't 'abstain' - they are prohibited from voting), and as I explained more than four hours prior to that.

Robert R. said...

Don't even think to annex Taiwan to China. You might as well say that Russia is well represented because Georgia has some votes to... except that Georgia was actually a part of Russia (well, USSR), while Taiwan has never been part of the PRC.

Pragmatus said...

The Olympics in general (and the IOC in particular) have become as corrupt as 19th Century American city/ward politics. With all the bribery and judging-rigging (not to mention 12 year olds competing as 16 year olds and rampant doping) host-city determination has come down to whoever pays plays.

My hunch is that once Chicago made it clear (especially after the president got personally involved) that there would be no bribery or shenanigans, the IOC decided it would punish them publicly and severely. The Windy City got so few votes it won’t even be eligible for consideration for 2020.

ssmith said...

Why all this hubbub about the Olympics? I don't remember this much drama when Atlanta was bidding for the 1996 Olympics (and yes, I am that old).

matunos said...

Who cares? The Olympics are a sporting event... culturally significant, perhaps, but still just a sporting event.

I couldn't care less if the IOC consisted of a bunch of monkeys in a room throwing darts at a map.

If you enjoy the games, you will see the games, either in person or on TV, regardless where they are played.

And really, no offense to Chicago, but I'm guessing even the US athletes (especially the US athletes?) will be happy to travel to Rio to compete rather than the Windy Cindy.

It's good for us. It helps us remember there are other places in the world.

merus said...

If the US had that many seats, the odds of the Olympic Games going anywhere other than the US would be greatly reduced. The perception overseas is that Americans look out for number 1, and most years there's an American city trying to get an Olympics.

azogdude said...

This has been the stupidest American media cycle to date. Rio's win is more about Brazil's peaceful rise than any failure of Obama's - their win is comparable to Beijing in 2008.

The IOC election cycle is very long and intensive, its really unlikely that President Obama's speech would have had that much effect. At any rate President Lula da Silva is just as charismatic as the American and probably more popular in South America, Africa and Asia.

mtvcdm said...

I actually like the IOC just the way it is. Keeps everybody honest.

Besides, they certainly had their reasons:

*We've had them too much.
*As such, we got a sort of birthright mentality- we can take a decent technical bid, swoop in with celebrities and claim the Games. Nuh uh.
*We weren't as passionate about it as we could have been. Rio, oh my God they wanted the Games bad.
*We made the bid a partisan political issue. The IOC doesn't like that. They want a country coming together as one and calling for the Games together. Not the partisan poo-flinging we find ourselves in now. Unless we relearn how to do things in an apolitical manner, it could cost us a lot more Games in the future.
*Too many Chicagoans didn't want it. The Olympics don't go where they're not wanted.
*We got too jingoistic. A problem cited with the Chicago bid was that it was AMERICAN, but not GLOBAL. The IOC wanted GLOBAL. (Which we are way beyond having forgotten how to do. NBC, anyone?)

It didn't have anything to do with the bid. It had to do with us.

Bradford said...

I gotta agree with Nate on this one. Chicago's bid would have made the IOC the most money, and the fact that our TV revenue is the majority of funding for the IOC should matter. I was a big Olympics guy, but dissing Chicago and the most powerful person in the world does piss me off, I think I will be skipping this fall's fake patriotism that is the Olympics...and hopefully many more.

Bradford said...

...the IOC is most certainly not GLOBAL, the IOC makes the makes the NJ Turnpike commission look like an upstanding org, did you guys all miss the huge pay to play scandals that are the IOC?

Mary said...

I'm from Chicago and I have mixed feelings, as many Chicagoans do. It sucks to get eliminated first, but I don't know how many people relished the thought of our gorgeous lakefront and parks being defaced by ugly stadiums and then trampled on by hordes of people. It's nice to be able to enjoy our city. And there was potential for the taxpayers to be on the hook for a lot of money.

We'll see how Rio does on infrastructure, crime and filling all those seats.

I do think all Chicagoans are taking notice of the conservative/Republican rejoicing at our loss, however. Not that anyone here votes for those people anyway.

dmrdh said...

Nate

Long time lurker (and a big fan), but I think you've missed something here.

The USA holds such a massive sway in any Olympics precisely because so many large US companies are major sponsors. The Olympic schedule is entirely at the whim of the USA - the big ticket events (womens gymnastics, swimming and athletics finals) are scheduled for US TV audiences. The IOC really only has two options to stop the US influence on what ought to be a global event - decide the venue and select the sports. And that's what they've done. Baseball and softball have gone and Chicago lost out for 2016. I think Chicago was unlucky to go out in round one and it was a genuine surprise that they were knocked out so early, but I think it was on the cards. And something else to throw into the mix - terrorism. We saw an attack in Atlanta and you'd have to wonder if America's sworn enemies wouldn't have thrown everything at an attack in Chicago in 2016.

The other thing is that Americans seem to think that they have a right to host an Olympic diet every 15 years or so (Lake Placid, LA, Atlanta, Salt Lake). I don't think that in the 21st century that one nation should be entitled to do that.

Just to finish on a less negative note, IOC voting has always struck me as unusual. It's certainly not strange for countries to lose votes as the process continues. It seems to be a massive game of strategy (Prisoner's Dilemma to the nth degree). It seems the first round was heavily influenced by former IOC President Samaranch's plea of "please give to Madrid - I'd like to see a Spanish Olympics before I die" (that was the sentiment, not his exact words). This probably knocked Chicago out and delegates probably switched to ensure Tokyo didn't get it.

Esben said...

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said: "there has been a conscious attempt to add events over the years to keep European nations happy (things like canoeing, where there's something like 6 medal events but only a handful of central European nations focus on it). The Olympics have been Euro-centric since Baron de Coubritand(sp) first dreamt them up as a way to let upper class amatuers have fun with each other."

Really? What about the fact that ONE good individual swimmer or runner can win his country something like 8 medals, while countries that excel in team sports get 1 medal for putting together the best team in the world consisting of up to 20 great athletes. European countries tend to focus more on team sports, whereas USA traditionally performs better in individual sports.

shiloh said...

ssmith said...

Why all this hubbub about the Olympics? I don't remember this much drama when Atlanta was bidding for the 1996 Olympics (and yes, I am that old).
~~~~~~~~~~


More media, the internet, facebook, twitter, Satellite communications and re: Obama, back in '96 the Dems and Reps really, really despised each other, whereas nowadays the Reps hate Obama and the Dems.

OK, not all Reps, mostly the wingers, yahoos and sheep who listen to conservative talk radio.

Limbo called this the biggest failure of Obama's administration which made me smile 'cause if this ends up being Obama's biggest failure, yes Virginia, he truly does walk on water lol.

And speaking of water, didn't Limbaugh say he was gonna stop being the Reps water carrier ...

Jeff said...

I'm sure you're all right that there were a lot of fairly prosaic reasons for the defeat, but I think you're crazy if you don't think there is some anti-Americanism at work.

And there is one thing that is 100% certain. If Bush had spoken to the IOC and come in a pathetic last, you all would have a field day with it as an example of how much the world hates us. The world likes Obama, but they like him because he tends to criticise his own country a lot, and dump on its former president. That doesn't exactly make the rest of us look very good.

Jeff said...

Politico has a story up today in which several insiders claim that the IOC simply doesn't like the US.

Then there is this, Obama's pitch:
“We stand at a moment in history when the fate of each nation is inextricably linked to the fate of all nations -- a time of common challenges that require common effort,” he told the committee. “And I ran for president because I believed deeply that at this defining moment, the United States of America has a responsibility to help in that effort, to forge new partnerships with the nations and the peoples of the world.”

I know the true believers eat this up, but to a lot of us the constant implied criticism (not here, but elsewhere) of his predecessor is ugly, and the constant references to himself and his "historic" election are narcissistic. He needs a new speech writer.

JosephFinn said...

It should be interesting to see how many bribery stories come out of this. Besides the IOC's obvious desire to see a Summer Games in South America, it's mind boggling that Rio was even accepted as a candidate. A 20+% poverty rate, corruption on a scale that makes almost any other American city look like a piker and slums that dwarf, well, everyone besides Mumbai and Bangladesh...Rio should not have even been in the running and there must have been payoffs. If not, this is one point where the IOC not allowing visits to candidate cities was a huge failure.

markymark said...

Incidentally if we want to go around apportioning blame for Chicago not getting the games, one of the rumours going around about why the IOC voted against Chicago is that they didn't want to award the Olympics to a country at war. So really perhaps this is something we can blame of Dubya!! ;)

nominalize said...

Sorry, Nate, sorry Obamacentric lovers and haters, but Chicago never stood a chance to beat Rio.

Geography: Rio is on a "new" continent for the IOC.

Passion: Brazil is a country passionate about sports, and not just about soccer. So there's no US advantage there. And since they're emergent on the world stage, they're already extremely proud to have been selected.

Geopolitics: Speaking of emergent powers, this will go a long way to bringing Brazil into the big leagues (the G-20 is already headed this way). We should be celebrating a new major country entering the world's stage besides China.

Security: Brazil is hosting the 2014 World Cup, so all the practical issues will be ironed out and perfected by 2016. Besides, Rio's rough parts are out in the suburbian shantytowns, not in-town near the events like Chicago's rough parts are.

TV: Rio is in a time zone conducive for American TV, especially since events start early in the day, and two hours more convenient for European TV than Chicago.

Weather: Chicago's windiness would be an issue in outdoor sports. Rio is pleasant all year, except the Northern hemisphere's winter... when the games aren't held.

Money: Razing parts of the city to build facilities will cost much less in Brazil than the U.S.

Brazil was not hit as hard by the credit crisis, which has wreaked havoc on London's preparations.

Rio is a destination: If you asked 100 random people in the world whether they wanted to go to Rio or Chicago, 10 would say "Rio" and the others would say "Where's Chicago?"

Walker said...

Jeff, hear hear.

As a person who has never been swayed by Obama's rhetorical charms I can still admit that within the context of his candidacy for president and inauguration day his speech-making was often effective, even transcendent.

Now, however, as president, to keep going back to that well-worn well, when everything is all about him and his election, where everything is so self-referential (and self-reverential), is rapidly reaching the point of diminishing marginal returns.


I can almost write an Obama myself. "Let us be clear..." "We stand at the precipice of history..." "The common cry of man..."

Dog Knows said...


Uhhhh ... Walker . . .

Blow out it out yer Texas ass . . .

-------------------

Now with the light weight work out of the way . . .

Hey Hey Nate:

About that SV LLC bull crap . . .

Maybe you should take this Republican shill and snake-oil salesman David Johnson up on what his stance was back in 2004 during a Neil Cavuto interview related to showing "... a little bit of humility..." by "...owning up."


- - - begin paste - - -

Strategic Vision - Owner Interview.

Original Source: YOUR WORLD WITH NEIL CAVUTO

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: Let me ask you something. Would it have made any difference at all if President Bush had said, "Yes, I made a mistake"? Would it have made any difference at all if John Kerry had said, "Yes, I`ve been a flip-flopper now and then"?

Well, my next guest says owning up can be a powerful political tool. Joining us now is public relations guru, David Johnson. He is the owner of Strategic Vision.

So David, you think a little comeuppance on either of these guys` part could go a long way?

DAVID JOHNSON, OWNER, STRATEGIC VISION: I really do. It would help President Bush more than it would help John Kerry, though. With George Bush, it would show a little bit of humility. And that`s one of the things that we`re seeing in polls, one of the things that we`re seeing in focus groups why he`s having such a hard time in these debates.

With John Kerry on the other hand, to admit a mistake would reinforce the impression that he is a flip-flopper.

CAVUTO: All right. But wouldn`t it be wise to admit occasionally you do flip-flop? And wouldn`t it be wise for the president, then, to make a concession, I don`t know, on anything?

CEO Wire | October 12, 2004 | CQ Transcriptions.

accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-4824188_ITM

- - - - end paste - - - -



Hahahahahaha . . .

Dog_Knows Silly as it Seems . . .

.

Walker said...

Walker's Random Obama Speech Generator Saturday morning edition:

"We stand at the precipice of history...when the winnowing force of justice laid bare claims it common reward...when out greatest hopes are realized by the expressed will of a people united...when our deepest fears are countered by hope, mercy, and sacrifice...we, the American people, are yoked to a tradition that exemplifies these principles..."

Not bad, huh? I popped that crap out while eating some soggy Funions...

Go Ags!

David said...

"...to a lot of us the constant implied criticism (not here, but elsewhere) of his predecessor is ugly"

To many more of us, Jeff, Obama's FAILURE to criticize Bush is maddening. His mantra is to not dwell on the past, to keep looking forward.

I suspect what you perceive as "implied" criticism on Obama's part is, in fact, nothing more than projection on your part.

Davy said...

Fumions, eh? Well it's obvious who's going to need Medicare soon.

Davy said...

Eric posted an excellent article on why we didn't deserve the Olympics as a form of world sanction for being such assholes to the rest of the planet.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/15374/we-didnt-deserve-the-olympics

geek said...

One less big bill we have to pay!

What am I missing?

geek said...

One less big bill we have to pay!

What am I missing?

Michael (mbw) said...

Correction to my late off-topic SV post. In the light of day, typos fixed, the SV stats (after Fourier removing the components whose possible non-randomness has been suggested) gave 4.40 times the expected variance, but statistically significant only at the p=0.00019 level, not the p=0.00014 level I'd previously posted.
Quin gave 0.30 times the expected variance, not statistically significant at the standard p=0.05 level.

No major change, but it's embarrassing to have made the small slips.

Pragmatus said...

This official word just in from the IOC.

Chicago offered to put up $5 billion in private money to host the Olympics, Rio (whose cash was guaranteed by Brasilia) promised $14 billion.

A lot more money leaks out of a barrel that has $14 billion in it than one that contains only $5 billion.

I rest my case.

Michael (mbw) said...

Continuing my off-topic thread:

Here's SUSA:
0.46 times expected filtered variance. Not statistically significant by any standard.

SV stands out like a sore thumb even after all the various effects suggested by its defenders have been filtered out.

shma said...

On the IOC:

Broadcasting fees should not be included in the metric for calculating delegates, since that would be viewed (and rightly so) as a nation or region buying influence.

This is a moot point however, because as Mike In Maryland and Spencer noted, US delegates do not get to vote when the US is in the running, and there's no reason to believe that Canada or Mexico would cast their vote for Chicago if they had more representation.

@Kevin, Polymeron:

Analyses of strategies in instant runoff voting have been done. It is prone to several types of strategic voting, including some very perverse ones. The most common is your basic 'favourite betrayal' strategy, where you vote for a less preferred candidate over your first choice to ensure that your least favourite doesn't get elected.

@Jason Townsend:

I prefer Approval voting myself, since the best Condorcet systems are hard to explain to the public ('just trust us that it works' doesn't go over too well). But I agree pretty much anything would do better than IRV.

dre7861 said...

While Africa has more represntation on the IOC than North America (I would imagine that is because there are more African countries than the three North American ones) yet Africa has never hosted the Olympics! I think that kind of shoots a hole in your theory.

loner said...

Michael (mbw)—

Thank you.

dre7861—

What about Cuba, Honduras, Nicaragua, Trinidad and Tobago, etc.?

shiloh said...

Jeff said...

Politico has a story up today in which several insiders claim that the IOC simply doesn't like the US.
~~~~~~~~~~


Politico lol a right wing blog that posts anti-Obama crap daily because controversy sells.

Really is that the best 'ya got ?!?

and your one trick pony anti-Americanism w/no proof is getting old in a hurry ...

btw, as others have noted, Rio had a better package than Chicago and Rio is the #1 tourist attraction city in the world followed by Rome and Hong Kong, Chicago, not so much.

This was a no-brainer for the IOC ...

take care

p.s. but on the bright side Jeff, Limbo is still carrying water for the party of No! ;)

Mike in Maryland said...

dre7861 said...
. . . yet Africa has never hosted the Olympics!

Besides Cairo and Cape Town/Pretoria, what other candidate cities are in Africa?

Remember, it's not the size of the city that counts, it's the ability to conduct the games (infrastructure, hotels, transportation, broadcasting of the events both on and off the field of play, etc.), handle the crowds, and the games need to have a reasonable probability of not being involved in war or civil disruption. Good bye any other cities in Africa, such as Lagos, Kinshasa, Kampala, Nairobi, etc.

Also remember, the IOC does not impose the Olympic Games on anyone, but rather invites cities to submit proposals to host the games.

. . . the three North American ones. . . .

Besides Cuba and the other countries mentioned by loner, how about Mexico (or are you so parochial that you 'know' that North America consists of Canada, the US and ??)? The Olympics were held in Mexico City in 1968. Also, North America is defined as bounded by the Arctic Ocean on the north, on the east by the North Atlantic Ocean, on the southeast by the Caribbean Sea, and on the west by the North Pacific Ocean; South America lies to the southeast. That means ALL countries in Central America, down to and including Panama, are part of North America, and ALL countries in the Caribbean (Jamaica, Dominican Republic, anyone? Bahamas? Puerto Rico?) and Central America (Guatemala, Nicaragua, anyone?).

Mike in Maryland

Mike in Maryland said...

Jeff said...
I'm sure you're all right that there were a lot of fairly prosaic reasons for the defeat, but I think you're crazy if you don't think there is some anti-Americanism at work.

Jeffy BOY? I'll be one of the first to admit that there is/was some anti-Americanism at work. But I'll also be one of the first to state that most, if not all, that anti-Americanism was a direct result of the cheney/shrub administration's "eff-U" attitude to all other nations.

Remember how all the world stood by the US on September 12, 2001? Massive piles of flowers and expressions of condolence in places like Moscow?

And what did the cheney/shrub administration do with all that good will?

Remember freedom fries?

Remember 'Old Europe vs. New Europe'?

A nation can lose the world's respect rather quickly. It can take decades to regain that respect.

Look at Germany - it lost all respect by the late 1930s, and is just now regaining world respect.

Look at Japan - it lost all respect by the mid 1930s, and is just now regaining world respect.

So before you try to blame the loss of respect by the world of the US, look to see who or what caused that loss of respect. In this case, it was not at all President Obama's fault, but the administration that immediately preceded it.

Mike in Maryland

Eli Blake said...

fava at 6:22 got the point where your analysis is faulty, Nate.

Since U.S. delegates can't vote while the U.S. is still in the running, it wouldn't matter if the U.S. had a hundred IOC delegates, they still would not be able to vote for Chicago.

What really did Chicago in, IMO was precisely the perception that it was indeed a front runner. Ergo a lot of delegates out of loyalty to Samaranch or whatever other reason voted for their favorite in the first round assuming they could come back and vote for Chicago later since everyone expected it to be one of the top two.

Dwight said...

Since U.S. delegates can't vote while the U.S. is still in the running, it wouldn't matter if the U.S. had a hundred IOC delegates, they still would not be able to vote for Chicago.

It would give them more pull to horse trade current votes for future votes. Not as direct but I suspect it would matter.

fendawg said...

There were many reasons Chicago didn't get the 2016 Olympics - but first and foremost was the presentation was truly abysmal. Apart from Michelle Obama's personal story, it was a cure for narcolepsy.

Where were the kids? Where were the big-name American stars? For example, and this refutes the point that the sports are biased in favour of Europe - golf will be included in 2016 for the first time; if you couldn't get Tiger Woods there, why not Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer - icons of their sport? Where was Mark Spitz - many of the IOC delegates either competed with Spitz or were inspired by his 1972 achievements.

Obama showed disrepect to the IOC; he should have been there the day before, shut-up in hotel suite, meeting IOC delegates who the bid team had identified as wavering or potential switchers. It worked for Tony Blair in 2005 when London got the 2012 Games, and he had a G20 Summit at Gleneagles the following day.

The IOC is being reformed, with newer members from different parts of the world, many of whom are former competitors. However an IOC delegate is, like being a member of SCOTUS, a job for life, so somebody has to exit this mortal coil before a vacancy occurs.

One final point: yes there is anti-American sentiment in the IOC - many remember the worst Games of the post-war years (Atlanta 96) and the corruption of Salt Lake City.

It will take a long time before that is forgotten, and it's no use blaming the IOC or its structures. The US Olympic Committee was also as dumb as dumb to pick a fight with the IOC over TV rights one month before yesterday's vote.

However, we will look forward to welcoming you to London in 2012, when you will see a Games delivered on time and on budget, in the most multi-cultural City in the world, and where the authorities positively welcome visitors, not treat them as potential terrorists.

Will said...

The IOC doesn't allow delegates to vote if their home country has an active bid that can still be selected. That makes sense: voters should at least have the appearance of selecting the best possible location without bias.

So, allocating more delegates to the United States wouldn't have necessarily made any difference for Chicago.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I will start to care about the Olympics once chess becomes an Olympic sport. until then, I really don't care.

I'm not especially athletic, as is probably obvious. Alot of Olympic events just don't seem like sports to me. Take weight lifting. You pick up a heavy object, and then you put it down again. That's not a sport, that's indecision.

Same too with running. This is probably because they use a circular or semi-circular track. I could probably justify all that effort if you actually got somewhere. The fact that you end up right where you started, while very Zen, just seems like a whole lot of effort for not much payoff.

The of course there's curling. I am quite fond of our Canadian cousins, but where did it dawn on somebody that sweeping ice with a dustbroom is a competitive event? I mean, I know they're a very clean people-I've been to some of their cities and they are alot cleaner than ours-but competition sweeping? are you going to mop the ice afterward, just to make sure the frozen tundra is free of dirt?

I'm not pleased about Chicago losing the games, because our economy sucks in the US and I like the idea of wealthy foreign tourists coming to spend money here in America - even if I don't understand why they're so excited over chasing the ball around the grass like a pack of amused kittens attacking a ball of yarn. Still, I'm glad Obama made the effort, and I congratulate President de Silva. Lula's a good man in alot of respects, and Brazil can use the money even more than we can. Maybe he can toss a puck out on the sidewalks and con the Canadians into sweeping up the favelas for him.

shiloh said...

fendawg said...

However, we will look forward to welcoming you to London in 2012, when you will see a Games delivered on time and on budget, in the most multi-cultural City in the world, and where the authorities positively welcome visitors, not treat them as potential terrorists.
~~~~~~~~~~


So, London will have no Olympic security? As all visitors will be able to come and go as they please. Interesting.

Whereas much of what you say is true, w/out U.S. TV Olympic coverage revenue, most foreign cities would struggle to pay for the games and U.S. cities who have held the games, of which there are many, have always been on time and on budget.

And although Britain held it's own during WWII and Churchill was one of the top (5) leaders of the last century, the U.S. did play a significant role in defeating Germany and Japan, so when someone gets on their high horse re: those good for nothing Americans, especially someone from Britain where political scandals are just as rampant as the U.S. and still has a hoity-toity useless British monarchy, my ears do tend to notice the ad nauseam B.S.

btw, Tony Blair was cheney/bush's stooge when it came to supporting the Iraq war.

take care

p.s. The U.S. forgave if not all, most of the WWI and WWII war debts of our allies.

Indeed, be proud of one's country, but cut the crap!

shiloh said...

Also, if not for the U.S. rebuilding Germany and Japan, there would have been no 1960 Tokyo Olympics or 1972 Munich Olympics and Japan would not have been in a position to contend for the 2016 Olympics.

'nuf said!

Dwight said...

...London ... the most multi-cultural City in the world, and where the authorities positively welcome visitors, not treat them as potential terrorists.

O RLY? Well I guess putting 7 slugs into someone's head isn't treating them like a potential terrorist. It's treating a them like a really, real terrorist.

P.S. It is my understanding that when traveling between NA and Europe people generally try to avoid stopovers in Heathrow if they can due to the security measures implemented.

fendawg said...

Sorry Shiloh, you misunderstood me - I'm disappointed Chicago lost and I think Rio will be an unmitigated disaster.

My point about security was meant to reflect the concern that was repeatedly raised by IOC delegates during Chicago's Q&A.

You're wrong about WWII debt however; the US refusal to even reduce Britain's debt, despite John Maynard Keynes lobbying until his death, led to the collapse of Clement Attlee's 1945-49 Government, and the last debt repayment was made somewhere around 2003.

I agree about Blair and Iraq which is why the 2005 General Election was the only time in my life I didn't vote Labour. However there seems to be no doubt that he was an integral part of London's successful 2012 campaign.

I hope you'll forgive me if I don't reply further but it's 2.45am here and I do need to sleep!

Statler N Waldorf said...

The jingoism on both sides is getting pretty thick here, shiloh and fen.

I appreciate the drive to learn from the past. Especially WW2, which left a massive scar on the human psyche that will not heal for at least another century. But we define everything in relation to it. The Left accuses everyone on the Right of being fascist, the Right accuses everyone on the Left of being Communist. Every country on the winning side sees its own behavior as blameless, even angelic. How accurate is that, really? What we did to Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden are horrific. We conveniently place a historical bindspot over Eastern Europe when we refer to how we heroically employed the Marshall Plan to save Europe. We ignored Patton when he wanted to finish the job by going into Moscow, and we ignored MacArthur when he wanted to go all the way to Beijing during Korea. The Cold war that followed was a period of collective psychosis, when the world played Nuclear Chess. We must have known how insane it was-we even called it MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. The push-pull of the Cold War created a beast that continues to swallow up our national economy-the Military-Industrial Complex. The Right howls at the idea of several trillions of dollars in stimulus money to build solar panels and fix the potholes, but when Obama's most recent budget submitted to Congress allocates 57% of every federal dollar on the military-that's 1.9 million dollars per minute of the upcoming year spent on military hardware- we all pretend this is something normal.

You know, for a country that,s in real danger from a collapsing healthcare system, Swine Flu, obesity, diabetes, heart disease... DHHS, the second biggest slice of the federal pie, only gets 6%-six percent of the budget. Which means, even though healthcare is the one topic on everyone's lips right now, we spend 9 times what we spend on keeping people alive and healthy on making people dead and maimed.

And why? The Cold War is over. WW2 was 65 years ago. There are people who were not alive when the Yanks met the Reds at Torgau and made the final push to Berlin who are retirement age now.

Can you let it go? Because we've got alot of people that are real sick and hurt these days, folks who are homeless and don,t know where they're gonna sleep tonight. They're alive, if only barely. We can do something to help them. The dead are gone. Lets bury the dead and do something with the money we're spending on PTSD left over from Bataan on helping the people who need us today. The ghosts of Omaha Beach don't need food or medicine. The homeless children of New Orleans do.

fendawg said...

Dwight I'm not going to defend the murder of Jean-Charles de Menenzes; IMO every police officer involved should have been charged with murder.

As for Heathrow, increased security measures were introduced after the attempted attack on Glasgow Airport but were withdrawn earlier this year.

Now I am going to bed!

shiloh said...

fendawg said...
~~~~~~~~~~


OK, once again I stand corrected re: the war debt, but:

What's a little debt between friends?

The post-war loan was part-driven by the Americans' termination of the scheme. Under the programme, the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for.

But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it.

As a result, the UK took a loan for $586m (about £145m at 1945 exchange rates), and a further $3,750m line of credit (about £930m at 1945 exchange rates). The loan was to be paid off in 50 annual repayments starting in 1950, although there were six years when payment was deferred because of economic or political crises.

Generous terms

It's easy to cough and splutter at the thought of our closest ally suddenly demanding payment for equipment rather than sparing a billion or two as a gift.

But the terms of the loan were extremely generous, with a fixed interest rate of 2% making it considerably less terrifying than a typical mortgage.

Still there were British officials, like economist JM Keynes, who detected a note of churlishness in the general demeanour of the Americans after the war.


And don't mean to be picky, because if I was in charge, would have forgave Britain's war debt altogether considering they were Europe's last line of defense and the contribution and sacrifice they made in defeating Hitler.

Anyway, remember when I was a kid the world almanac used to list the WWI and WWII war debts and just the interest alone seemed to be astronomical. And the fact Britain finally paid off the loan whatever the terms were is very impressive! :)

And bottom line, as it turns out, the Chicago rejection, although it would have been good for the area economically, just points out once again how clueless the current Rep party is ie cheering when they heard Chicago was out of the running in essence rooting against America. Just like when the Reps voted against Sonia Sotomayor. What were they thinkin'! Obviously they stopped thinkin' some time ago as they can't catch a clue.

Politically it's all good for the Dems.

ciao

p.s. why do Republicans hate! America ...

Dwight said...

fendawg said...

Dwight I'm not going to defend the murder of Jean-Charles de Menenzes; IMO every police officer involved should have been charged with murder.


But they weren't.

I don't know, maybe it's just that you have no living memory of when Britian didn't treat people like potential terrorists? But that [ironically] Brazilian's death, and Heathrows heavy security (that went to overtime crazy because of the incident you mention, but not even counting that) simply doesn't jive with what you claim. *shrug*

Grant said...

It doesn't matter how many delegates the US has - delegates of nations still in the running can't vote at all. Even if you reapportioned toward Asia and North America and away from Europe and Africa, Chicago would still have been the first eliminated.

fendawg said...

Dwight, I think we need to agree to agree on the murder of Jean-Charles de Menenzes, but also remember (for what it's worth) his is the only person shot dead by London police in three years, so it's hardly a common occurrence. Another time, another place, I would be happy to debate the inadequacies of the British law enforcement system, but I don't believe this topic is the right forum for such a debate.

I have no personal experience of travel to the US, however I do have a cousin who has been an airline pilot for some 20+ years, working for British Airways, Emirates, and now Virgin Atlantic, and in his view the US-post 9/11 is second only to Israel in terms of ease of entry at airports, and that the UK does not come close to the open hostility faced by security staff at US airports by visitors to your country. But as I said earlier, I'm not trying to "bash" America, I was just using it as another reason why Chicago was unsuccessful.

Finally, I can only come back to the IOC, who have praised the welcoming attitude shown by London in particular, but the UK as a whole, to visitors to this country, which, I believe, is the only pertinent point in this thread.

Shiloh asked "what's a little war debt amongst friends"? I'd just ask you to consider how much more could have been invested in our public services if we were not servicing that debt for 60 years.

I agree, however, it is unwise of the GOP to try and make political capital out of Chicago's failure - it has taken our Conservative Party from 1997 until 2008 to realise you don't regain power by constantly talking down your own country, particularly in times of dire economic hardship. As Candidate Obama kept reminding people last year what America needed (and by impliciation any democracy) is "change we can believe in".

fendawg said...

Sorry - second paragraph should have read "hostility faced FROM (not by) security staff".....

Howard said...

Why would you count Taiwan's vote for China? It would make as much sense to count Malaysia or Singapore's votes for China. Taiwan has its own Olympic team, and would be able to compete under its own name (rather than "Chinese Taipei") if the PRC government wasn't so douchey.

Valerio L said...

a) Outside of the US everybody thought that Rio was going to win. It was obvious that Rio was everybody's second-best choice after their favorite and that's usually who wins.

b) Despite all of your charts and analysis, North America has hosted 4 of the last 11 Olympic games, and the US has hosted 2 of the last 7.

Dwight said...

fendawg said...

Sorry - second paragraph should have read "hostility faced FROM (not by) security staff".....


That could indeed be the disconnect here.

The English, being who they are [outside the occasional lit-up football fan], tend to conduct themselves in a very reserved and polite, at times even apologetic manner. Even when they are considering topping off your brain pan with lead. The same is not generally reported of Americans. ;)

shiloh said...

fendawg said...

However, we will look forward to welcoming you to London in 2012, when you will see a Games delivered on time and on budget, in the most multi-cultural City in the world, and where the authorities positively welcome visitors, not treat them as potential terrorists.
~~~~~~~~~~


Forgot to mention re: multi-cultural. Obama came to prominence in politics in Chicago. And was elected Senator in IL and is now president.

Has London ever had a Black mayor or multi-ethnic mayor? New York, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Dallas, etc. have had African/American mayors.

If London hasn't had a Black mayor, what are the prospects. And what are the prospects of a Black prime minister, or a French Black president, or a German Black leader etc.

Cleveland elected an African/American mayor in 1967, during the height of the Civil Rights struggle in the U.S.

Indeed, America has its problems, but "we" remain, as always, the melting pot of the world ...

take care

Michael Turton said...

I agree with a previous poster on the matter of Taiwan. It is shocking to see on this article that Mr. Silver suggests that perhaps Taiwan's total should be added to China. That is beyond obtuse. Amazing.

Brad, as a lifelong Dem and resident of Taiwan for most of the last 20 years, and its most popular English blogger, the ignorance and neglect among progressives and Dems on Taiwan is a perpetual source of sadness for me.

For some decent coverage of China's olympic policy vs Taiwan, see this blog post of mine:

China's Foreign Policy in Sport.

I yearn for the day when my allies are not all neocons and crazed righties. The inability of Dems to give a shit about Taiwan's democracy never ceases to amaze me.

Michael Turton
The View from Taiwan

fendawg said...

Shiloh, I don't know why you're so defensive about my statements about London.

My comment about multi-culturalism comes from UN statistics that show there are more minority groups in London than in any other City in the world; it's not about political representation or anything else, there are just more people who are either directly from outside the UK, or trace their ancestry to another country in London than any other City. Fact, end of story.

Your comment about Mayor of London was either deliberately ignorant or plain stupid; there have only ever been two Mayors of London, the post was only created in 1998 by Tony Blair's Government, and was filled by Ken Livingstone until his defeat by the current incumbent, Boris Johnson, last year. Elected Mayors are a new thing to the UK (one of Blair's sillier ideas - they are hugely unpopular, and my City voted to abolish the position after a little over six years). There are however Lord Mayors, or Mayors, depending on the size and status of the City/Town/Borough, who are elected by that area's Councillors from amongst their own membership, and many have been from minority ethnic communities (again my City has had two Pakistani-Britons as Lord Mayor in the last five years, and a Black Councillor was the first person in the 99 year history of the position to serve two terms as Lord Mayor).

I'm interested also that you only use Black as a minority group; in the case of the UK I would suspect that the first minority ethnic Mayor of London, even Prime Minister, will be from the Asian community (by that I generally mean India/Pakistan/Sri Lanka/Bangladesh rather than the Far East), as members of that community are more politically active than members of the Black community (and don't ask me why because no-one can give you anything more than an educated guess).

As for the other countries you mention, neither Germany or France has a large Black immigrant community, particularly France as most of its immigrants are from its former colonies in French North Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, etc.). There were high hopes I understand that a Algerian-born lady was a future Prime Minister/President of France, as she appeared to be a favourite of President Sarkozy, but she unexpectedly resigned earlier this year.

I hope that this has clarified my point about multi-culturalism in London and the UK, and that it has maybe ended your defensiveness and sniping at the UK, which is totally unprovoked, given that I have never criticised the US, for its many faults, in any of my posts, and particularly considering I made it clear that I backed Chicago as 2016 Host City. If you pick on your friends and allies like this, it is little wonder the US is friendless in organisations such as the International Olympic Committe.

shiloh said...

fendawg said...

Shiloh, I don't know why you're so defensive about my statements about London.
~~~~~~~~~~


Not defensive at all. Just stating facts and asking questions. But I suspect Britain, France and Germany won't be electing an Black leader anytime soon.

btw, African/Americans make up 14% of the U.S. population and 12% of the voters in the 2008 election.

and even though you called me stupid, I won't call you stupid for saying I only used Black, when I also said multi-ethnic, hmm, sounds like you are the one who is defensive.

And yes, I am unfamiliar w/British politics, which is why I was asking questions. Sorry if my inquiry causes you distress.

and there are just more people who are either directly from outside the UK, or trace their ancestry to another country in London than any other City. Fact, end of story. Please provide source material as NYC is quite diverse also.

Again, not defensive, as the Rep party in America causes me no concern, why would the lack of diversity in European politics cause me any concern.

Was just asking questions and stating facts ie Cleveland had an African/American mayor over (40) years ago.

I have never criticized the US, for its many faults, in any of my posts Again, reread your post(s) but first and foremost was the presentation was truly abysmal. Apart from Michelle Obama's personal story, it was a cure for narcolepsy. Obama showed disrepect to the IOC; he should have been there the day before, shut-up in hotel suite

hmm, guess there really is a language barrier between England and America.

And Obama went to Copenhagen 'cause he was told by inside sources in the IOC, if he went it would probably assure Chicago winning the bid. So, it sounds like a set-up that Chicago came in 4th. Those dishonest IOC members, shocking, eh. ;)

take care.

p.s. saying Obama showed disrespect to the IOC is a very good start to welcoming Americans to London in 2012 ...

yea, you misquoted my post and it is you who are truly defensive as I was just stating facts and asking questions.

llamswerdna said...

The only problem with this is that even if the US had 20 seats, Chicago still could have been eliminated in the first ballot, because all members from the candidate countries have to recuse themselves on the first ballot and can't vote until the second ballot.

IrishPeteKnows said...

fendawg - according to Wikipedia Toronto is actually the most multi-cultural city, claiming 49% of its residents are born outside of Canada. My aunt and brother live in London and I have been there 3 times in the past few years, and I must say it is very multi-cultural. However, I lived in Toronto for 7 years, my parents live there still (I live in Chicago now incase you were wondering) and it is without a doubt the most multi-cultural city I have ever visited. Also, the UN has never proclaimed any city the "most" multi-cultural as far as I read. I would love to see the source of those statistics, essentially showing that Londons population is over 50% foriegn born.

To those stating - if the US had 20 seats it wouldn't have mattered as they could not have voted. You need to think ouside the box. Having 20 votes gives you much more leverage with other IOC members than 2. The US could go to Asia, Africa, and trade votes for future support. IE we want all 15 African votes, and we will support South Africas bid in 2013 for the 2020 games....etc

The point I really want to make is , I think if Chicago emerged from the first round (if several European members didnt give sympathy votes to Madrid in round 1) they would have beaten RIO in a close vote.

Here's my analysis of how it would have went, assuming 6 European members first choice was Chicago but voted for Madrid in round 1 ( I think this is a conservative number considering their were certainly other votes like this outside of Europe, IE IOC members from other continents supporting Madrid, and Asians supporting Tokyo, who really supported Chicago as their number one choice but didnt vote for them in the first round as they were certain they would get through anyway) Also it is extremly unlikely that any of these votes took away from RIO in round 1 as their main support from round 1 came from the other 16 European votes.

After round 1:
RIO - 26
Chicago - 24 (18 + 6)
Madrid - 22 (28 - 6)
Tokyo - 22

Madrid wins run off against Tokyo

Round 2 - Chicago gets 14 of the 22 Tokyo votes, plus Japans 2. Members who voted for Tokyo wanted a compact less risky games, and Chicago is the next best choice. Plus Asia has much closer ties to the US than South America.

Chicago - 40
RIO - 34
Madrid - 22

Final Round - I think not as many Europeans as thought would have supported RIO once Madrid was out. Madrid's second in command called RIO's bid "the worst of all 4" 1 day before the vote. Still I will give RIO 14 (13+Samarch's vote) and Chicago 9.

Chicago - 49
RIO - 48

fendawg said...

IrishPeteKnows - I think we're working on a different interpretation of most culturally diverse; I have never implied that my statement was solely limited to people born outside of the UK, and therefore Toronto may well have a higher percentage in that category. I am including people from minority ethnic communities born in London (or elsewhere in the UK that have migrated to London). I can't find the UN document - it was sourced in an early London 2012 submission to the IOC which appears to have been removed from the London 2012 website, however I draw your attention to this passage from Lord Coe's submission to the IOC in Singapore when London were awarded the games: "And thanks to London's multi-cultural mix of 200 nations, they also represent the youth of the world. Their families have come from every continent. They practice every religion and faith." So I would conclude by response to you by saying that I do not, and never have, claimed that over 50% of London's population is foreign born, which I hope puts that to bed.

fendawg said...

Shiloh, if you read my comments, I said I don't believe any of those countries will be electing a black, or any other BME community member as leader anytime soon. I fully accept that BME communities are under-represented in our national political environment, however coming from a country with one African American Senator out of 100 (who's appointment was at best dubious, and who will almost certainly leave an all-White Senate in January 2011), the phrase "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" comes to mind. Yes you elected a Black President, and I stayed up until 3.30am when the West Coast polls closed to witness the moment, but I fear the President, on the National political scene, is the exception rather than the rule.

Well done to Cleveland having a African-American Mayor 40 years ago, as I clearly stated the UK has never had directly elected Mayors in the way the US does until the late 1990's, and currently there are only seven such office holders (one of whom in Newham, home of the Olympics) is Black, so I'm afraid the comparison just does not stack up. You are not comparing like with like. Indeed non-white immigration into the UK only started in the 1950's, so we are always going to be playing catch-up dates-wise.

If you seriously believe that my criticism of the Chicago 45 minute presentation was a criticism of your country then you are way too sensitive. The Chicago presentation was dull - it had no "wow" moment (such as Rio's map showing an empty Continent), and the video was the worst of the four. These are not my views but the views of IOC delegates and veteran IOC watchers from within the worlds of journalism and Olympic sports.

The comment about Obama showing disrepect to the IOC was not actually mine - it was Kevan Gasper, former Vice President of the IOC from Australia. Incidentally the analysis here is that Obama was not told by the IOC he had to attend, the USOC realised they were in trouble in vote terms and pleaded with him to attend. Even President Lula da Silva is claiming that he urged President Obama at the G20 Summit in Pittsburgh to attend as it was thought it would give Chicago a better chance. I'm not sure whether you follow bookmakers odds, but until President Obama announced he was indeed going to attend, Chicago had slipped behind Rio and Madrid in those odds (trust the oddsmakers to be right again!).

May I suggest you Google some of the international analysis of the events in Copenhagen last week, as they might just give you a different perspective.

If you want my personal opinion as to why Chicago came in fourth, it is this: the Rio was marked higher by the Evaluation Commission, giving it a head start, there was a definite feeling that Japan should not "lose face" by Tokyo being eliminated in the first round, the Chicago presentation was poor (and they were at a recognised disadvantage of going first), and Juan Antonio Samaranch Sr pulled votes to Madrid with his apparent death-bed appeal. Finally I think it would be foolish to ignore the fact that the IOC has bad memories of the US; Atlanta were the worst Summer games of the modern era in the eyes of the IOC, the corruption of Salt Lake City still lingers within the IOC, and the USOC's hare-brained idea to pick a fight with the IOC over its own TV channel a month before the vote was as close to writing Chicago's suicide note as you could get.

Again - and I seriously hope we can draw this to an end sometime before the end of the milennium - I supported Chicago, I think the decision to award the Games to Rio will haunt the IOC for years, I support President Obama, and I am a lover of many things American - particularly baseball, Bruce Springsteen and many of your movies and TV shows.

IrishPeteKnows said...

I think we can agree that they are both very diverse cities.

I also agree that the spats between the IOC and troubles of the last two US host cities certainly did not help. Couple that with the fact that interm CEO of the USOC Streeter did not attend the IOC meetings in June. Every other President of member countries was there. She had never met any of the IOC members prior to Denmark.

The USOC needs to step up and ratify its revenue sharing agreements if it has any hope of getting the games in the next decade. Also, a strong leader with a history and passion for sports should be appointed its leader. Although you could argue that despite all the difficulties Chicago was still the 4/5 favorite on October 1st. Had Madrid not been in the running they might well have pulled it off (illustrated by my previous post)

Ultimately the world has changed drastically in the last 20 years, and it will be a difficult slog for the US and Europe going forward. 2020 will be the year of Africa, with the apparently very popular cry of "its not fair, its our turn" their slogan. Then their is India, and portions of the Middle East that will be pushing hard as well. The days of Europe, North America, Europe, ....etc are over.

One interesting tid bit I came accross. Avery Brundage the only non European President of the IOC (1952-72) went to the University of Illinois, and is buried in Chicago.

fendawg said...

IrishPeteKnows - I agree about the USOC need to appoint a sports figure; it was recognised in 2005 that Seb Coe leading London's bid, as a double Olympic Gold Medallist, and the beginning of his presentation where he spoke about being forced to watch the 1964 Games at school and seeing a local athlete win Gold, and then queueing outside the athletics club when she returned, was a major plus to London's presentation, and IMO, one of the things Chicago lacked.

As I think I've said somewhere here before, the fact that 2016 will see golf make its debut I would have been looking to take one of Tiger Woods (difficult I know because of his playing commitments) and/or Jack Nicklaus or Arnold Palmer - that kind of seminal sports figure; even Pete Sampras or Andre Agassi from the world of tennis. And why take a polarising figure such as Nadia Comenci? She is reviled as a traitor amongst Eastern European IOC delegates, some of whom actually date back to the Cold War, for abandoning Romania (albeit for very good reasons in our Western eyes).

As for IOC Presidents, Jacques Rogge has indicated this will be his last term of office (indeed when he was elected he talked about introducing two-term limits but I don't know whether anything happened about it), so maybe a non-European will emerge whenever Msr Rogge's term is at an end.

shiloh said...

fendawg said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Since "we" now appear to be in a pissing contest ...

Lord Coe's submission to the IOC is (1) man's opinion and proof of nothing!

By Obama's election alone one could conclude, given the right candidate, at least 28 out of 50 states would have no problem electing African/Americans as senator or governor. And as I stated in a previous post Hispanics are the new Irish in America as they seem to be very political and very well organized, and as such, are the ethnic group to watch in American politics in the future.

and lol, yes Obama is an exception as America has elected (44) men president in its history, ok (43) Ford wasn't elected and considering America's tragic/no excuse history of 300/400 year African/American oppression, Obama's election was quite remarkable in any context.

So what comments are yours and what comments have you copy and pasted from others and have taken their credit, hmm.

Now you look like a weasel, eh who is losing the discussion so he/she passes the buck!

No need to Google as I have just been responding to what (you) have posted. But may I suggest you own up to your own words and not try to deflect like the winger trolls do at 538.

Why Chicago wasn't picked was never the point of our discussion ...

Again - and I seriously hope we can draw this to an end sometime before the end of the millennium ~ no doubt!

take care

p.s. Americans elected an African/American leader of the free world, not an insignificant gesture ...

Again, be proud of one's country and I have no problem w/criticism of America as I have spent the past (40) years doing just that, but I will argue the facts until the cows come home.

fendawg said...

I seriously doubt Lord Coe would use incorrect facts in his submission to the IOC, and they have never been challenged in the four years since the presentation was made in Singapore (and there I am defending a Conservative politician, who would have believed it!). The quote from Seb Coe's presentation is the only copying and pasting I've done as I frankly couldn't be bothered to re-type it.

I'm not sure where I've passed the buck, and the reasons Chicago didn't get the games are extremely pertinent to this discussion, as it's on a thread entitled "Disband the IOC" which argued, in my view incorrectly, that had the IOC been reconstituted Chicago would have been successful in Copenhagen last week. My original comment, which I now regret making, was an attempt to disagree with that argument.

shiloh said...

IrishPeteKnows said...

One interesting tid bit I came across. Avery Brundage the only non European President of the IOC (1952-72) went to the University of Illinois, and is buried in Chicago.
~~~~~~~~~~


Oh the irony Hitler's tool is buried in Chicago. Well, the Mafia was big in Chicago lol so maybe not so ironic ...

shiloh said...

fendawg said...
~~~~~~~~~~


Was talking "our" discussion and not the threads discussion. Again, I'm all about source material when one states unequivocally something is fact ie Fact, end of story like you did.

Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, to few to mention ...

take care

Karl said...

Nate,

I think the basis of this argument is all wrong. Countries do not have representation on the IOC, and this is actually quite central to the olympic concept.

The IOC is not a UN for sports. In fact it's an organization that is very much built on the post-national ideals.

Granting membership based only on the nationality of the individual would be a head-on collision with the olympic ideals of looking at the individual, past nationality.

fendawg said...

shiloh - read my earlier reply and you will find that the figure was taken from a UN study that was included in London's early submissions to the IOC, but no longer seems available on their website. If you are so insistent I will ring the staff at my employer's office tomorrow and ask them to stop campaigning for our 2010 elections and to stop helping constituents with their problems and dig out the hard-copy which we may still have, or which may have got dumped when we moved offices in March.

shiloh said...

fendawg said...

shiloh - read my earlier reply and you will find that the figure was taken from a UN study that was included in London's early submissions to the IOC, but no longer seems available on their website. If you are so insistent I will ring the staff at my employer's office tomorrow and ask them to stop campaigning for our 2010 elections and to stop helping constituents with their problems and dig out the hard-copy which we may still have, or which may have got dumped when we moved offices in March.
~~~~~~~~~~


OK, now you're just being silly. Let me state again, Churchill was a great leader and Britain held the fort against Hitler in WWII until the U.S. finally decided to help. I have great admiration for the Brits, but every country has its faults and facing the truth is the only way to correct them ie America and slavery.

I'm glad London is holding the 2012 games and I hope they are a great success w/out a hint of terrorism. Tony Blair helping to win the games is to his credit, but blaming Obama for not kowtowing to the IOC is misguided as Obama has a few other things a tad more important he has to worry about, multitasking being the key.

Sorry if I have offended you, but politics at 538 can be a contact sport ...

g'day

fendawg said...

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Let me try and be as clear as possible - I am employed as a researcher, and my previous employer was a member of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee of the House of Commons at the time London began its bid, as such I was asked to read all the documentation, and I have in my handwritten notes mention of a UN report. What I don't have is access to the hard-copy documents, and they don't seem to be on London 2012's website, so I can't verify my claim.

I find it pathetic in the extreme however that something as trivial as whether or not London is the most multi-cultural City in the world, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the original post we are supposed to be debating should be the subject of such intense scrutiny. I have accepted that Toronto may indeed have more people born outside of Canada than London does, and it's BME population maybe greater in number than London's, but I seriously doubt that it, or any other City, can match the 300 nationalities referred to by Lord Coe - if you can come up with any, fine.

Where have I blamed Obama for kowtowing to the IOC? All I have said is that his strengths were not utilised to their best. He would have been more useful (and I've seen five IOC delegates interviewed on BBC News and Sky News here say the same thing) either staying at home and making personal phone calls to IOC delegates who had been identified by the Chicago bid team, or following Blair's example and staying in his hotel suite in Copenhagen for 24 hours before the vote meeting those same delegates. My point is simple - Chicago had in President Obama a trump card and they didn't use it to it's maximum potential. Please don't put words into my mouth.

Now you may have nothing else to do with your life, but I have a limited amount of time on the internet and I have spent four hours tonight researching and replying to you, and have 128 unopened emails that are now going to have to wait until tomorrow because it's 10 past midnight here, so this discusssion, as far as I'm concerned has moved beyond the reform of the IOC, which was its original point, and therefore is over. Thank you for ruining what was supposed to be a pleasurable evening online - when you've been stuck in bed for 13 years unable to move, as I have, enjoyable times are few and far between - your anal retentiveness has just destroyed one such opportunity for me. I'm sure you'll come back with more drivel, but save yourself the time because it will go directly to my spam folder unread.

shiloh said...

fendawg said...

Now you may have nothing else to do with your life, but I have a limited amount of time on the internet and I have spent four hours tonight researching and replying to you,
~~~~~~~~~~


Was being nice when I said you were being silly when you said: If you are so insistent I will ring the staff at my employer's office tomorrow and ask them to stop campaigning for our 2010 elections and to stop helping constituents with their problems and dig out the hard-copy which we may still have, or which may have got dumped when we moved offices in March. as your sarcasm er deflection spoke volumes as to our discussion.

Please go read your 128 unopened emails as one is obviously a very important person who got sidetracked into, as you say, a stupid 538 discussion!

Interesting one spent (4) hours researching something as innocuous as this discussion and still couldn't provide source links, just more, as you say, drivel er anal retentiveness impressive indeed!

and if one's evening is ruined by a 538 discussion, you are wound wayyy too tight, eh

ta ta

IrishPeteKnows said...

Fendawg - I agree bringing more athletes of Olympic sports would have been beneficial to Chicago. In my opinion they made a big mistake inviting Oprah. Although extremly popular she has nothing to do with the Olympic movement. Her entorage and media attention took away somewhat from the IOC session, which no doubt put some off the Chicago bid.

They did try dilligently to have Michael Jordan attend. However, he was apparently too busy preparing for the upcoming NBA season with the horrible Charlotte Bobcats (he's part owner). Not sure why he couldn't have stepped aside for a couple of days to support the city that made him. I personally think his presence would have been huge. He's one of the most well known figures in sports, and has competed and won 2 Olympic gold medals.

I'm interested in your thoughts so hopefully you haven't spammed the whole blog as you seem to know quite a bit about the Olympic movement. .

Here's my scenario on what Chicago could have done differently. A sort of Monday Morning Quarterback evaluation. Oprah does not go. Instead they bring Michael Jordan, Jack Nicklaus, and Michael Phelps. Also, Obama arrives on Thursday morning in Denmark and spends 24 hours meeting with IOC delegates 1 on 1, and remains until the winner is selected. Does Chicago win?

Anthony L. Burns, Esq. said...

obviously, if there were a more proportionate number of delegates from the United States, Chicago's chances would have been very strong.


this is not true - because you can't vote as long as your own country is in the running

fendawg said...

IrishPeteKnows:

I agree about Oprah - her presence served no apparent purpose, other than maybe to show the multi-cultural face of the US (particularly as they were probably unsure of the President's attendance when they booked her). I agree about Michael Jordan, and I'm surprised he couldn't be persuaded to attend. My two slight reservations about Michael Phelps are his DUI convictions may slightly have tarnished his reputation, and having only seen him on TV, he doesn't come across as the most articulate of people. Maybe somebody like Janet Evans (slightly older, very successful swimmer) would have been a better bet.

As for Obama's appearance, I will leave this link to an article written by Mike Lee, a former number 2 at soccer's world governing body, and a senior member of both London and Rio's bid teams and let anybody take it as they wish: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/oct/04/rio-olympics-2016-mike-lee

This link also I think is pertinent: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112484624

I think Chicago maybe could have got past the first round, but, as a supporter of their bid, I was always fearful that Madrid's votes (who I thought would go out first, as they wouldn't give back-to-back Games to Europe) would transfer to Rio.

IrishPeteKnows said...

Fendawg : the guardian article is interesting. How does Brazil fandangle Londons architecht away from the United States. My guess, nobody on Chicago 2016 had a clue who he was.

The Brazlians commitment to 2016 was far greater than ours. They simply wanted it more and knew how to play the game.

I read a story on Universal, NBC's olympic arm, that Brazilian officals met a few days before the games and voted on what they thought the outcome would be. They put the prediction in a safe and opened it on October 3rd. It said RIO would beat Madrid in the final round with 68 votes. They were off by two. Chicago on the other hand had said they expected somewhere near 30 votes in round 1, or something that wouldn't even approach elimination. Looks like they didnt have a clue. And ultimately that blame must be placed on the USOC.

fendawg said...

IrishPeteKnows: I understand Mike Lee has set up his own consultancy after London's bid, because another article in the same newspaper said that before joining the Rio bid he had worked for the Doha, Qatar bid which didn't make the final four.

Interesting about the vote predictions! I wonder if they'd estimate my candidate's majority at next year's General Election here - a UK equivalent of 538 has just moved us into a Toss-up category from Safe.

I think reading various articles, and listening to so-called "experts" Madrid's strength was a surprise to everyone, and that probably proved fatal to Chicago's chances.

Ridley said...

....just a lot of Hog wash. Americans, Americans, Americans. Lose and they want to change the rules. Everyone else have lost and taken there licking....but Americans want to change the rules.

Ophah. THe President, Micheal Phelps, Jordan and all that is insignificant. Chicago lost...Let the Games go to South America where it has never gone. ....Caribbean next. ha ha haaaaa

shiloh said...

Ridley said...

Oprah, the President, Micheal Phelps, Jordan and all that is insignificant.
~~~~~~~~~~


Totally agree, would have made no difference. Just like Obama was destined to be president, Rio was destined to win the IOC vote.

The time/warp continuum having swung in their favor ...

freefun0616 said...

酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,