10.14.2009

Can Offshore Drilling Save the Climate Bill?

The timing is a bit odd, considering that the full Senate is finally about to take up the Democrats' health care bill. But a somewhat surprising editorial in this Sunday's New York Times by Sens. John Kerry and Lindsay Graham has given hope to some very smart climate-policy watchers that a substantive climate bill may indeed pass the Senate this year.

When last we checked in on the climate bill three months ago, after it had narrowly escaped the House, we concluded that although there are theoretically as many as 66 votes in play in the Senate, in practice it would struggle to get more than about 52-55 votes given the current political environment. In broad strokes, there are probably four factors that govern the Senate's appetite to pass a climate bill: the overall strength of the economy, the price of fossil fuels (higher is more favorable), Presidential popularity, and recent temperatures and weather conditions. Since July, the economy has improved, but not yet in a way that substantially benefits Main Street; Obama's approval rating has fallen; gas prices have held roughly steady, and we did not have a particularly warm or hurricane-y summer. Thus, the fundamentals have not really improved.

But the bill that Kerry and Graham are promoting is a different bill than the Waxman-Markey bill that the House approved. Although not yet fully formed, it appears to include support for both offshore drilling and nuclear energy, which the Waxman bill did not. It is really quite similar, actually, to the "all-of-the-above" approach advanced by John McCain on the campaign trail last year.

Let's focus on the first of those two things: offshore drilling. How many additional votes might it buy the Democrats? There are 23 U.S. states with at least some ocean coastline; let's briefly consider the political implications of expanded drilling in each of them:

Southern Atlantic Coast

Florida. Florida's coastline is both highly populated and highly valuable, and so its residents have generally been a little more trepidatious about offshore drilling than those in neighboring states. It's also a fairly strongly pro-environmental state, with its own cap-and-trade program in place, and which has ample reason to be concerned about global warming because of the potential for increased hurricane activity and eventually rising coastlines. In other words, Florida has better reasons to support the climate bill than the offshore drilling provisions. But they probably can't hurt with Republican caretaker George LeMeiux -- already a plausible 'yes' vote on climate -- depending on what signal he gets from Charlie Crist.

Georgia. Georgia has a relatively scant 100 miles of coastline, but its Congressmen have been strongly in favor of offshore drilling initiatives. Still, it's two senators are rather conservative, and it would take a lot to sway them. Johnny Isakson, who is somewhat more moderate than colleague Saxby Chambliss, is the more likely of the two to be won over.

South Carolina. The Magnolia State is very much in favor of drilling and indeed this may have been what led Lindsay Graham to lend his support to Kerry's bill. On the other hand, Jim DeMint is one of the most conservative members of the Senate and can't be expected to support the bill no matter what.

North Carolina. North Carolina has historically been less gung-ho about offshore drilling than its neighbors, as it has a somewhat environmentally sensitive coastline. But governor Bev Perdue recently commissioned a study to consider the impact of drilling off her state's coast, suggesting that attitudes might be changing. North Carolina is not also not a terribly carbon-intensive state, as it has more of a service sector economy. Still, while the conditions are theoretically right to get two votes from North Carolina, Richard Burr is running for re-election in a state where Barack Obama has become fairly unpopular, and it would take a lot for him to do anything to help the President.

Virginia. Virginia has been pretty enthusiastic about offshore drilling in the past, but since Jim Webb and Mark Warner were likely votes for the climate bill in the first place, this won't give the Democrats much additional leverage.

Mid-Atlantic

Maryland. No gains to be had here since Barb Mikulski and Ben Cardin are liberals who will support the climate bill no matter what.

Delaware. Our model likewise sees Tom Carper and Ted Kaufman as highly likely to vote for the climate bill, so providing for drilling off Delaware's 28 miles of coastline wouldn't make much difference.

New Jersey. Would likely oppose drilling efforts since it depends on its coastline for tourism revenues; Frank Lautenberg and Bob Menendez are sure votes for the climate bill, besides.

New York. They ain't about to start drilling off Long Island.

New England

Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts. Protective enough of the property values along their coastlines that they've been reluctant to allow wind farms, let alone offshore oil platforms. In addition, exploratory efforts in these regions have generally not uncovered potentially oil-rich areas. But this is largely academic since all six senators from these states should be reliable votes on the climate bill anyway.

New Hampshire. With just 13 miles of coastline, it's not going to matter one way or another, although Judd Gregg remains an important swing vote on climate.

Maine. This one is potentially more interesting, since Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe are such critical swing votes on climate, but Maine relies on its coastline for tourism and fishing, which along with logging form the backbone of its economy. In addition, Collins and Snowe have opposed offshore drilling initiatives in the past. Snowe and Collins will choose to support or oppose the bill based on criteria other than offshore drilling.

Gulf Coast

Mississippi. Although offshore drilling is already allowed off the coast of Mississippi and the other states of the Gulf Coast, Governor Haley Barbour and Sen. Roger Wicker have generally been quite outspoken about wanting to expand drilling further, with Wicker having authored a bill to that effect last August. He and Thad Cochran are probably too conservative to have their votes swayed on this basis alone, but they're worth watching.

Alabama. As in Mississippi, most of Alabama's coastline is already open to offshore drilling, although a small additional slice could be opened if the existing ban were lifted. Still, Jeff Sessions and Richard Shelby are even more conservative than their colleagues from Mississippi, and are unlikely to be swayed to support the climate bill.

Louisiana. Oil wells already dot the entirety of Lousiana's coastline, so there might not be much direct benefit to the state, but the state could benefit indirectly via its refining industry, and Governor Bobby Jindal recently drafted a letter to the Department of the Interior supporting expanded offshore drilling efforts. David Vitter almost certainly wouldn't come on board no matter what, but the vote to watch here is Mary Landrieu, one of the more conservative and parochial Democrats who might be looking for a bargain.

Texas. Governor Rick Perry has staked out an extremely strong stance against the climate bill, which is an impossible sell in this carbon-loving state. Kay Bailey Hutchison is not going to risk a yes vote when she's about to face off against Perry in a Republican primary, nor will a member of the Republican leadership like John Cornyn lend his support.

Pacific Coast

California, Oregon, Washington.
Although the oil industry has some onshore presence in California, these pro-environment states have generally had no interest in further offshore exploration, and all six senators from the region are fairly liberal Democrats who would have voted for the Waxman bill as is.

Alaska and Hawaii

Alaska.
Alaska has a complicated relationship with energy and the environment, but the state's residents are strongly supportive of expanded drilling programs both offshore and in ANWR -- no surprise, since by law each resident is entitled to a share of the profits from such efforts. Expanded drilling could all but assure the vote of Mark Begich, and put Lisa Murkowski very much into play.

Hawaii. I've never heard of any proposal to drill off Hawaii, and since Sens. Akaka and Inoyue are going to vote for the climate bill anyway, it wouldn't really make any difference politically.

...So what does this get the Democrats? It gets them Linsday Graham's vote, and possibly Lisa Murkowski's. It takes Mark Begich from a leaner to a likely yes. It might encourage Mary Landrieu, and possibly George LeMieux of Florida, to look more sympathetically at the bill. Then there are a whole host of more remote possibilities: Isakson of Georgia, and perhaps Cochran and Wicker of Mississippi or Burr of North Carolina; none of those votes are likely, but they become more plausible with offshore drilling in place. Overall, it seems to be worth something like 2-4 votes at the margin.

That would give the Kerry-Graham bill a fighting chance, especially if an additional vote or two -- possibly John McCain's -- can also be picked up as a result of the nuclear energy compromise. Of course, that's assuming that no liberals would rebel against the new provisions, but the opposition to both offshore drilling and nuclear energy seems to be fairly soft in the liberal caucus. I would not place money on the climate bill passing this year, but the odds would seem to be a lot better with the drilling compromise in place.

49 comments

Ian said...

*sticks my climate-science aware hat on* offshore drilling for hydrocarbons to prevent climate change is like fucking for virginity.

*replaces it with my oil industry hat* Florida, Florida, Florida. The GoM off Florida is a very interesting place, far more interesting than ANWR (although with climate change opening the north-west passage, ANWR does get more interesting. Especially as all that melting permafrost will be major fun for the Alaska pipeline).

That said, the Florida GoP is far more interested in coastal condos and marinas than it is about drilling rigs.

slowen said...

Maybe the US can finally join the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Seas!

Other states that have signed but not ratified the convention include: Afghanistan, Iran, DPR of Korea, Libya, and other nations who share our mindset.

Jeff said...

It's not terribly important, but Mississippi is the magnolia state. South Carolina is the palmetto state.

Jason S said...

Even if Waxman Markey were adopted as-is, it would do virtually nothing to fight climate change.

If congress passes a bill this session, it will do even less, and will (as a practical matter) prevent further action until 2020 approaches. It will also prevent the FCC from regulating greenhouse gasses on its own.

Has there ever been a political cause that was as completely subverted through legislation as the movement to cap greenhouse emissions?

I find it incomprehensible that environmental groups aren't working aggressively against this.

Brian said...

They're not going to put in ANWR drilling. It will DESTROY support from environmentalists and kill the bill on the left.

An offshore drilling compromise they could swallow, but not that one.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

American Petroleum Institute is out with commercials now in D.C. I've seen about 3 or 4 new ones in the last week.

Looks like the fight is starting to brew up now.

Glenn Doty said...

The sad fact of the matter is that if they put in additional offshore drilling legislation, the private oil companies will not exploit them at our current global oil dynamic (~4 million bbls/day spare capacity, a $70/bbl price that is supported by OPEC).

They will say: Ok oil companies... Have at it! And the oil companies will yawn and go back to playing golf. This market is not one which encourages large investment in deep water drilling.

If you want the oil companies to get excited AND you want to help the alternative energy fuel production... add in a provision which states that oil or liquid fuels that are produced in the U.S. will be purchased by the government at $30/MWh, to ensure a constant and profitable market. THAT would get the attention republicans... You could add a carbon tax of $100/ton and still get many of the republicans onboard with that one... and it would actually help the country and the environment.
*shrug*

As it stands, you examined off-shore drilling, but failed to examine the provisions for nuclear energy - which should be interesting to quite a few republicans as well.

Chachy said...

I don't really understand the environmental case against offshore drilling. If we don't get our oil from off the coast of Florida, we get it from some other place where the environmental impacts are likely to be war worse: the Niger Delta, Alberta tar sands, etc.

And as global oil production ramps down, we're pretty likely to end up going after every last drop of oil we can find anyway. Might as well start the process.

Jeffrey said...

This is certain to lose at least one liberal Senator on the vote for the bill's final passage. That may not be an issue as liberals probably wouldn't vote for a filibuster of the climate bill. The real problem is that this could lose enough liberal votes in the House to kill it there.

prairieliberal said...

Opposition to offshore drilling and nuclear energy has been soft, but I bet that there is a *&^tstorm once a bill with those compromises gets into markup. The enviro community became bitterly divided over Waxman-Markey. Will the organizations that supported ACES be pressured out of support a bill that promotes nuclear?

Bradford said...

Nukes are actualy a great short term alternative, if we can get them built. If iot takes drilling to get there, so be it.

Tom Peryam said...
This post has been removed by the author.
hillgiant said...

Are there any landlocked republicans who would support offshore drilling on principle? I.e. screw the coasts to justify voting for the bill?

Bart DePalma said...

There is nothing in the Kerry/Boxer bill that opens up offshore drilling. Indeed, the bill would tax such rigs for emission of GHGs.

The Dem base in the Senate is hardly going to sign off on "drill baby drill." The offer to talk about drilling in the future is sop to give cover to Graham and McCain.

Dwight said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Dwight said...

This market is not one which encourages large investment in deep water drilling.

How deep is the water off of FL in the most likely drill sites?

A single Gulf of Mexico deepwater well will run you $100 million. That's a crazy cost, especially when you are that far from known well geology.

But shallower wells can easily be drilled under $10 million. Remember, they didn't start with deepwater off of Texas. They've transitioned as the shallower areas have been used up.

AK said...

Doesn't the bill also include incentives for natural gas? That could win support from Senators in Appalachia where the Marcellus gas shale is found.

Also, I think the liberal opposition to drilling is overstated. The most important thing is that we get a cap on carbon. Even if it expands oil drilling slightly in the short-term, the important thing is that we take concrete steps NOW to slow carbon's growth over the long term. And Joe Romm makes a good argument, that once demand forces oil prices back to $150-$200 a barrel, Dems will be unable to resist the temptation to allow offshore drilling. Better to do it now and get a climate bill out of it than do it later and get nothing.

As for ANWR, are there ANY environmentalists who think drilling in ANWR is worse for the environment than not having a cap on carbon? I'd rather not allow drilling, but if that's the price for a climate bill, it's worth it.

Thomas said...

Small factual point: Florida does not yet have its own cap and trade program. Though it has thought a lot about having one.

Woody (Tokin Librul/Rogue Scholar/ Helluvafella!) said...

Imho, it's not the drilling (except in ANWR, which they want to fuck up just cuz they can, and cuz it will piss off the left/libs).

"As for ANWR, are there ANY environmentalists who think drilling in ANWR is worse for the environment than not having a cap on carbon? I'd rather not allow drilling, but if that's the price for a climate bill, it's worth it."

Don't worry, they're gonna drill ANWR. Nothing will prevent it. If not this year, then next. ANWR is toast.

The big prize is new leases. The industry hasn't even explored/tested all the leases they now hold.

But each new bit of "lease" is another "asset" on the books, and another bit of leverage.

frezik said...

@Glenn Doty: "They will say: Ok oil companies... Have at it! And the oil companies will yawn and go back to playing golf. This market is not one which encourages large investment in deep water drilling."

Don't forget about the effects of speculation. Because oil tends to attract a lot of very naive speculators, oil tends to go through manic-depressive phases. The knowledge that there's a large reserve out there that can be opened up at somewhere around $100/barrel will help keep speculation from going out of control.

" . . . add in a provision which states that oil or liquid fuels that are produced in the U.S. will be purchased by the government at $30/MWh, to ensure a constant and profitable market."

There's no need a government-subsidized oil market to encourage offshore drilling. If the oil companies leave those reserves alone, so be it.

Jacob said...

Does anyone know what the nuclear energy compromise entails? Would it allow the construction of new plants? I would imagine many liberals could be won over on nuclear as a renewable fuel source if it wasn't a jump off the deep end sort of proposal.

Frankly, I would support more nuclear if pro-nuclear senators like McCain would be open to storing waste in their own states (as I recall, Arizona has a lot of open space).

Mike M. said...

Say Silver, since we're on the subject of the weather, oops, I mean the "climate", did anyone ever take you up on your temperature challenge bet?

I sure hope not for your sake, because if so, you're probably losing your shirt! The maps are showing frigid, wintry type weather already throughout most of the midwest and the northern plains and Rockies.

Jacob said...

Also, did anyone notice the irony of the title of this post: Can offshore drilling save the climate bill? Seems emblematic of how the Democratic majority thinks these days. Maybe we can pass an environmental protection bill if we sacrifice the environment in return! It's kinda depressing that we have to be willing to create new environmental problems in order to get the clout to fix others.

Glenn Doty said...

@Fezzic
The amount of impact that "speculation" has on the price of oil can be easily traced by following the build/drawdown patterns of the reserves. The world was drawing down reserves while production was pumping flat-out during oil's rise to 147/bbl... that price was supported by market fundamentals. However, speculators were clearly instrumental in slowing the crash in prices as world inventories built up at record pace.

The speculators can't keep prices from going over 100.00/bbl, more production can. But the active well drilling activity has plummeted over the last year - due to the fact that we're oversupplied. If you don't want this to continue (resulting in the world being undersupplied once the world demand starts picking back up), you have to ensure a minimum price of oil... By doing so, you effectively also create a maximum price of oil - at least for the next ~5-8 years (peak oil is real, and it should scare the crap out of you).

Without some kind of incentive to force greater well-drilling/field development activity now, we'll likely see 200/bbl by the end of 2011, as our current wells will go dry (world-wide at a rate of 3-4 million bbls/day/year) and there won't be sufficient new field development to replace the old wells - resulting in another supply/demand dynamic that will cause the price of oil to skyrocket again.

Of course, the same things that function for oil also function for investment in alternative energy... If $30/MWh were guaranteed, then much more VC funding would flow to alternative energy ventures. Right now the VC guys are worried that oil could again crash to $30/bbl... so far too little money is being invested in promising R&D concepts.

Disclaimer - I work for a company that is trying to develop a revolutionary new carbon-neutral liquid fuels production, and we're having trouble getting development funds because VC guys are skiddish about the oil market. (www.WindFuels.com)

Peter Wolf said...

@Glenn

what rate would you convert barrels of oil to energy at? As it varies massively according to the efficiency of the power plant...

btw, $30/MWhr? That is a ridiculously low guarantee, at least from the point of view of the UK where we have essentially no production at a rate of less than about £30/MWhr (or approx $50/MWhr), and where it is not possible to build significant new energy supplies of any type at that cost point.

Peter Wolf said...

btw, what I mean by that: in the middle of off peak periods we can produce at lower than $30/MWhr. BUT over the project lifetime the average production cost is higher than this, hence the average selling price is higher too.

having had a quick glance over windfuels the biggest things that strikes me is the fact that energy in off peak conditions can still come from fossil fuels. If it's energy from this that is being used then windfuels would not be fossil-fuel neutral. Secondly, if windfuels ever grew to a very large size it would act to distort the money and increase the costs of its own energy.

there's more as well, but I need to read more about the company first before commenting further.

DJ SHIMMY said...

Getting this climate bill passed sounds more complicated than the health care bill.

First off, shouldn't you consider which states in the US that don't currently drill actually have coastline/areas off the coast with reachable reserves of value?

Second, surely expanding offshore drilling will lose you considerable support from liberals, for example from California's two senators... so even if a few Republicans vote for it, you'll just lose some democrats

Third, Republicans will make a big stink about ANWR, which in turn will whip up the liberal base and put pressure on the left to say no (even if ANWR doesn't make it into the bill).

And we haven't even BEGUN to talk about nuclear power!

Where's LBJ when you need him?

Davy said...

So I used to be of the ultra progressive tree hugger mentality in that I didn't want new offshore drilling or further tapping of ANWR. But the reality is that we will need to switch from a carbon based energy society within the next few decades. Otherwise, It's the Mad Max scenario for everybody. If you need compelling reasons to back this up, I suggest you pick up Richard Heinberg's book, 'The Party's Over'; quite likely the authoritative book on the topic of peak oil. Or visit the Post Carbon Institute at:

http://www.postcarbon.org/

These days, I say 'Go get that oil fellas if you can do it in a cost efficient manner. Try not to make too much of a mess'. But we're going to need some kind of concession that gives a nod towards alternate energy development (and I mean more than the token nod that energy companies are giving it in order to launch greenwashing ad campaigns). Because we're going to need much of the oil to switch to a post carbon society.

Agreeing to the climate change bill is a step in the right direction for reduction of emissions but it is only prolonging the inevitable. We will run out of oil. We need an agreement to aggressively fund new energy resources.

Glenn Doty said...

@Peter Wolf.

Oops. Brain mis-fired. I was about to type 3.00/gallon of gasoline equivilant - but decided to put that is constant energy (which would be ~$83/MWh)... and something got scrambled. :)

After that, I just self-referenced and didn't think about it.

That's the problem with randomly chiming in during work - your brain isn't fully engaged in your posting, and you can make some VERY stupid mistakes.

Thanks for pointing that out, and sorry about the brain fart.

Glenn Doty said...

@ Peter Wolf

Concerning your objections to the WindFuels platform, remember that we are looking at using extremely low-cost electricity in off-peak areas. In Minnesota, the average price of grid energy traded through MISO between midnight and 6:00 am was less than $5/MWh over the course of the last year (that's neither a typo nor a scrambled number). When prices are that low, the power companies are NOT burning fossil fuels and then paying people to take the energy... at least 90% of the grid energy in these cases comes from either nuclear or wind (or in exceptionally rare cases geothermal). So we are talking about carbon neutral energy. Furthermore, ending negative pricing for the off-peak electricity will result in renewed demand for more carbon-neutral power in these currently saturated markets... so we'll be encouraging more wind power penetration, and getting cheap carbon-neutral energy to make fuels.
:)

Davy said...

Ah, I see that Glenn Doty has already made a bunch of my points.

Peter Wolf said...

no worries about the brain fart! Happens to us all :)

Speaking as someone with an MSc in Renewable Energy, who is just about getting round to trying to switch careers to take advantage of it, the more wind jobs the better...interesting that the non-fossil fuel penetration level is so high in Minnesota, in which case what you are proposing makes more sense (although I think there are other ways you could go about it, such as compressed air storage and conversion to energy at peak times).

From a UK perspective, it never ever drops that low to the best of my knowledge. We have about 20% nuclear (as a percentage of annual energy generation), and a few percent of other stuff, but even in the middle of the night we burn a hell of a lot of carbon on top of that so it would never be carbon neutral in this country under current conditions.

Dwight said...

>> Secondly, if windfuels ever grew to a very large size it would act to distort the money and increase the costs of its own energy.

That's why windfuels won't, without cheap efficent storage tech (like hydrogen/fuel cells) that would mitigate that. It isn't just the use of other fuels, it is that the infrastructure must be in place to back it up. Sitting infrastructure costs.

Peter Wolf said...

dwight - when talking about windfuels I'm talking about Glenn Doty's company. For that company the storage tech you're talking about is not relevant....

I suspect you're talking about wind energy, where they only become seriously relevant at high energy penetration levels which very few energy grids are remotely near.

Dwight said...

@Glenn Doty

It depends on the locale. In Alberta there have been times when co-generate facilities at natural gas processors have put their power onto the grid for free. Their investment is also hardware, the energy they are using is otherwise waste.

So there can be other competitors even at those price points.

Dwight said...

Oops, thanks for the heads up Peter!

Ok, at first glance it looks like windfuels is about energy storage of wind that I mentioned.

Peter Wolf said...

yep, pretty much - basically the company is an energy storage/conversion one. But it's the "storage" from off-peak to selling at higher prices that is key I think, rather than what the conversion is to....

Glenn Doty said...

Peter -

You have to remember that Minesota (and all the rest of the American Midwest) has ~1/20th the population density that the UK does... which probably impacts nightime demand for energy significantly. We used Minnesota as our example specifically because of its very high penetration of nuclear and wind energy: nuclear is ~10% of the energy, and wind is ~7%... but that is appearently enough to fully saturate and even oversaturate the night-time market.

The daytime peak market in that area (low population density filled with extremely good wind regions) has plenty of spare capacity, and the peak prices of energy which are traded from power companies to municipals average ~35-40/MWh, which makes electrical energy storage very non-competitive.

Transfering the energy to liquid fuels essentially fixes it's price to the global oil market (~65-70/MWh with U.S. fuel prices), rather than trying to perfectly time the energy discharge with the highest price energy hours of any given day (which still are significantly lower than 65-70/MWh).

The levelized cost of energy storage in liquid fuels from our WindFuels concept is predicted to be $30/MWh higher than the purchase price of the electricity (which is obviously the source of the earlier brain-scramble.)

Just out of curiosity, what - other than offshore wind - do you think the UK will be doing in alternative energy? I don't think they're going after nukes, and solar would be prohibitively expensive in the UK... as would biofuels. What are you guys looking into?

Patrik said...

As for the slightly shorter, and more relevant question - "Can Offshore Drilling Save the Climate?" - the answer is of course a resounding NO!

Offshore drilling might belong in an energy supply bill, but it has no place whatsoever in a Climate bill. It's important not to confuse the two.

Glenn Doty said...

Thanks Peter, for correcting Dwight.

Dwight, you are indeed talking about the same problem (with both wind and nuclear energy) that we are trying to address.

Neither wind nor nuclear has a chance of deep penetration if there is not some type of sufficient energy storage available in the middle of the night. For wind, the turbines could at least be turned off during low-demand hours (though this would seriously change the levelized cost of energy calculations)... but for nuclear energy it's even worse, because there would be nothing to draw the energy off the grid - which would then quickly begin damaging equipment hooked up to that grid.

But no energy storage is truly competitive without perfect natural situations that can be used for pumped hydrostorage... any other type of current energy storage starts becoming prohibitively expensive very quickly.

We want to take the energy off the grid and store it as gasoline - then sell it to the transportation sector.
:)

@ all
Sorry to hijack the conversation... I merely wanted to provide a disclaimer that my suggested policy - government buying all American made liquid fuels at $83/MWh (thanks again Peter for pointing out my earlier screw up) - would specifically benefit me and the project I'm working on.

Peter Wolf said...

@Glenn Doty

Interesting stuff, thanks. Makes a lot more sense to me now!

Ref the UK. Basically we don't have enough onshore wind potential (given planning permission problems especially) and tidal just isn't going to cut the mustard in the short term. Personally I'd look at it as a multiple stage process and my ideal would be:

1)Now: onshore wind, small scale hydro.
2)Future: offshore wind, tidal and wave.

But all of that is irrelevant as this isn't really about centralised options. Where it is, the current UK government pretends to be in favour of Renewable Energy but is actually a nuclear supporter. The interesting question there is what happens when the government changes at the next election: and that I don't know.

BTW, I'm just talking electricity supply. Supplying the other demands of the energy mix from non-fossil sources as well is not going to happen for a long time.

Glenn Doty said...

@ Peter
Thank you for your interest. This was a fun distraction.

I hope some investors will give us some time to prove you wrong about other demands of the energy mix.
:)

I still have my concerns with the lifetime of wave energy projects... If the generators last 30 years, it's cheap energy... if they last 5, or require a lot of maintenance, it becomes very expensive energy very quickly... I don't know enough to comment.

Tidal costs too much prime real-estate (beachfront, comercial waters, etc...) to be interesting in most situations.

This was fun, though it was a very large distraction from the original post... The problem with this google blogger is that the discussions aren't threaded...

Oh well. I still had fun.
:)

Mike in Maryland said...

Jason S said...
Even if Waxman Markey were adopted as-is, it would do virtually nothing to fight climate change.

Since the cap on carbon that can be traded steadily decreases over a period of years, why do you say that this bill does "nothing to fight climate change"?

Or do you want it instantly, no matter what that would do to the economy, the environment and to people's lives?

Mike in Maryland

Mike in Maryland said...

Several decades ago (mid-late 70s, an electrical utility in Virginia planned on using 'excess' power whenever it became available (usually at night) to pump water into an old coal mine (or possibly into a lake behind a dam). Then when consumption of the electricity rose, the water would be allowed to flow out of the containment through generating turbines to generate power.

I believe the system was to be located somewhere in or near Bath County, Virginia. Anyone have any idea if it went into operation, and if so is it still in operation, or did they shut it down because of problems (technical, financial or otherwise)?

Mike in Maryland

michael said...

"Of course, that's assuming that no liberals would rebel against the new provisions, but the opposition to both offshore drilling and nuclear energy seems to be fairly soft in the liberal caucus. "

But of course, good ol DLC Nate. Why would any liberal do anything but smile and say thank you as he bent over to pick up the soap in the prison shower. You were wrong about the backbone of the "liberals" on public option, something only supported by 55-70% of the public in every poll except your boy, Scotty Rasmussen's polls.

Maybe the same steel will come through among liberal dems. I can think of at least 15 who would NOT support a bill where the tradeoff was drill baby drill and dr. strangelove...

Peter Wolf said...

@Glenn Doty

assum ing you read this....anyway, yeah shame they aren't threaded. Amazed Nate still has a pretty poor comments system.
With respect to tidal, you're right about the issue of coastal land, but there is still some decent potential there I think.

nikip5555 said...

No doubt you're already aware that South Carolina is the Palmetto State. I'll also add that there is no way Johnny Isakson of Georgia is going to vote for a climate bill - any climate bill. He is not really less conservative than Chambliss - only less obnoxious.

Glenn Doty said...

@ Peter. I did read your comment. Assuming you read this, tidal may have some potential, but at best it would be similar to geothermal - a very VERY small portion of the future profile.

@ Mike in Maryland.
I don't know any details of the specific plant that you're discussing... but what you discribe is known as "pumped hydrostorage". We've got several GW's of capacity in pumped hydrostorage in America today (the largest being the Raccoon Mountain facility). Pumped hydro is by far the most cost efficient electricity - electricity energy storage system that we have... and almost every nuclear plant in the country is on the same grid as a pumped hydrostorage plant, because there's just too much nighttime energy produced for local demand in most cases.

The problem with pumped hydro is that it requires a good geographical "fit"... and wouldn't exactly be useful on the great plains of America (hence our growing "negative priced energy" problem.

Now they're talking about Underground Pumped HydroStorage (UPHS) - where they basically bore out an underground lake using massive tunnelling equipment, and use that for pumped hydrostorage. What's shocking is that the UPHS option still is more cost effective than thermal storage, batteries, capacitors, or hydrogen cycles... but it's clearly going to be expensive. That's why we think there will be such a market for WindFuels.

tariely said...

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