Why such fury--or, for that matter, surprise--at Joe Wilson's "liar" outburst last night? There are calls for him to be formally censured, including from one former Republican senator, or at least apologize to the entire House. Meanwhile, monies are pouring into the campaign coffers of Wilson's 2010 Democratic challenger, Rob Miller. (According to the DCCC, more than 10,000 contributions totaling more than $350,000, and counting.) He's getting raked over the coals for his 2000 vote as a state senator--one of just seven--to continue to fly the Confederate Flag over the South Carolina state capitol. Some are even poking into poor Congressman Wilson's shaky personal finances.
I, for one, am not much surprised that such bleating-heart conservatism came from South Carolina. I mean, c'mon: This is a state that, more than any other, has been resisting progress for the Union--and the Union itself--since, well, before there even was a United States.
This is a state whose slaveowners pressured Thomas Jefferson to remove condemnations of slavery from the Declaration of Independence. This is a state where loyalists rallied by the British as part of their "Southern Strategy"--the Brits' term, not mine--recaptured South Carolina from the patriots in 1780 as part of a plan to flip SC and Georgia and roll northward from there to smother the very revolution that birthers and tea partiers and Glenn Beck sychophants point to today as inspiration. This is the state that gave us senator and Vice President John C. Calhoun, who advocated state “nullification” of federal powers. This is also the state which became the first to secede from the Union to start the Confederacy—and even threatened to secede from the Confederacy when the other southern states refused to join its calls to re-open the slave trade. This is also the state that boasts of Congressman Preston Brooks, who in 1856 bloodied abolitionist senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts with a cane. (Top that, Rep. Wilson!)
All ancient history, you say? Not so fast.
Well into the 20th century, this was the state where black citizens observed the Fourth of July mostly alone. Why? Because--get this--the vast majority of whites preferred instead to celebrate Confederate Memorial Day, May 10, a practice that continued into the early 50s, which means there are some very senior South Carolina citizens who skipped a few Fourths back in their early years. (Why isn't Sean Hannity asking them to brandish their flag pins?) In 1920, this was the state whose legislature rejected the women’s suffrage amendment, only ratifying it for symbolic purposes a half century later, in 1969. In 1948, this was the state where the legislature declared President Harry Truman’s new civil rights commission “un-American,” and that offered segregationist favorite son Strom Thurmond as the so-called Dixiecrat party's presidential nominee. And it was this state's Clarendon County, not Topeka, that was the original case that later became--and only after political intervention by Gov. James Byrnes to replace SC with KS--the landmark Brown v. Board of Education ruling. Is anyone surprised that this was the state that brought the first court challenge to the 1965 Voting Rights Act?
Joe Wilson's outburst? Puh-lease. Merely a peep, folks. Merely a peep.
9.10.2009
Wilson's Outburst Merely a Peep
by Tom Schaller @ 5:02 PM...see also house republicans, obama, south carolina
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The fact that other South Carolinians have done far worse things is no excuse for Representative Wilson's behavior last night.
Oh well I now understand his stance, afterall he was an aid to Sen James Strom Thurmond the racist Dixiecrat candidate from the south
I believe that it is specifically against the rules of the House of Representatives to call the POTUS a liar while the House is in session, which is was last night.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about SC, Tom
Yet further evidence that Abe Lincoln was, on occasion, wrong. :D
South Carolina was also the state where in 2008 Bill Clinton felt he could bring race into a Democratic Presidential Primary and win it for his wife.
Sorry Tom, but I have to call this bad form. South Carolina is a member of the union just like any other state, whether we (or they) like it or not. I'm usually one to roll my eyes at people whining that they didn't like a post on 538, but this is just petty South Carolina-bashing, and frankly I'm a little disappointed to see it come from this blog that I respect so much.
Interestingly, it's also the state that produced Stephen Colbert. The mind boggles.
I'm going to take this as a lesson that anyone (or any group) can look unamerican with a little work and research. A lesson a wacko right would do well to remember in their excesses to save America from ... oh yes.. the people real American citizens elected to govern themselves.
I come to 538 for statistical analysis and quantitative thinking. Personally, I would prefer if you saved all the punditry for your visits to Fox & Friends.
I've been there, it's not great, but I can name several states that it's almost certainly better than.
Still, just because there's a lot of bad coming there doesn't mean it all is. I too am generally in awe of the South's refusal to join whichever century it is, but it does no good to beat it like a dead horse. Theoretically, we should be trying to convince them they are wrong, or else we're just as bad as them. Furthermore, there are literally millions and millions of good and decent people even in the South, and we should do well to remember that.
Of course, it’s probably important to mention that all the horrors of South Carolina’s behavior from about 1840 through 1964 --- slavery, secession, filibustering anti-lynching law, passing poll taxes and literacy test to vote, enforcing segregation, fighting Brown v. the board, and spending 100 years burying civil rights acts --- these were all done in the name of the Democratic Party, which held complete dominance in the South from the late antebellum period through the Civil Rights Act. Whatever evil modern-day Republicans have espoused, it is hardly fair to imply that they are institutional manifestation of the South Carolina’s historical backwardness. For most of our history, they were the progressives on issues of race.
I'm fairly sure that on one level this was meant to be an amusing little post. But there are several things wrong with it.
First, as was mentioned above, it's state-bashing. That's fine for the GOPers, but I think 528 needs to be above that. In a way, it's sinking to their level.
Second, it fails to look at the bigger picture. This person represents a certain general trend in the GOP. It would have been far more interesting to explore that avenue.
Third, it may have meant to be amusing, but health care is pretty serious stuff. It shouldn't be trivialized.
Still, that's quite a list. From a purely historical point of view, I did find it fascinating.
I'm sorry, but that kind of attack on an entire state is unfair and wholly illiberal. I started reading FiveThirtyEight in election season for the unparalleled demographic investigations and commentary. I've been sorry to see such off-balanced stands in the recent Healthcare fight. What Joe Wilson did was stupid and out of order, but to take it as an opportunity to malign an entire state and its citizenry is just plain wrong.
South Carolina's past may be chequered, as far as Mr Schaeller is concerned, but it is also replete with fine men and deeds, and some fine sentiments. To call a distrust of Washington and governmental control 'opposing progress for the republic' is as nakedly partisan as is possible. That sentiment has led generations of South Carolinans to fight and die in the Armed Forces, with one of the Union's largest numbers of recruits annually, as well as to fine figures such as Senator Lindsey Graham.
Joe Wilson disrespected the President: his timing was wrong, as was his tone, but the sentiment of vicious attacks was displayed worse by advocates of 'progress for the republic' during the Bush presidency. He'll pay for what he did in a tougher re-election.
Incidentally: If we judged states by their highlights of far history, then Illinois would rank high as the birthplace of Lincoln, but today it should perhaps be judged by Roland Burris and Rod Blagojevich.
I don't know what your point was but you can't expect me to either condemn the entire citizenry of South Carolina for historical transgressions against right-thinking or consider Wilson's outburst during a joint session to be unworthy of notice.
John said
Of course, it’s probably important to mention that all the horrors of South Carolina’s behavior from about 1840 through 1964 --- slavery, secession, filibustering anti-lynching law, passing poll taxes and literacy test to vote, enforcing segregation, fighting Brown v. the board, and spending 100 years burying civil rights acts --- these were all done in the name of the Democratic Party, which held complete dominance in the South from the late antebellum period through the Civil Rights Act. Whatever evil modern-day Republicans have espoused, it is hardly fair to imply that they are institutional manifestation of the South Carolina’s historical backwardness.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Yes, the Republican party used to be the party of civil rights, but when the DixieCrats broke off and the Democrats "lost" the south, those guys all became republican. Strom Thumond is absolutely an institutional manifestation of the [the South's] historical backwardness. He used to be a democrat. Then he became a republican. The legacy of racists Democrats is the legacy of the modern republican party, absolutely.
Normally I don't condemn the articles on here, but this is just a fluff post and unnecessarily incendiary. I agree with a previous poster that it seems a better fit for Faux News.
Tom,
I sympathize. Personally, I'd be happy to kick South Carolina out of the Union if it were constitutional. But 528 is not the place for over-the-top theatrics directed towards one of our most consistently backwards states on the part of the bloggers.
Neither is five thirty eight. (slaps forehead)
Whoa, harsh. I am not entirely sure what this little exercise is supposed to teach us: That SC breeds revolting dickheads? That we shouldn't expect anything good to come out of SC?
Why damn a plot of land like that?
Having not read the article but most of the comments, let me say something nice :) about SC. St. Patrick's Day is a holiday in SC as it is in Boston, Patriot's Day. ~ My mom being 100% Irish makes this fact extremely important when talking about SC lol. And as I attended St. Patrick's grade school and could never figure out why it wasn't a day off school, I digress.
And yes, every state has retards like Wilson, some more than others, so don't let one yahoo be the be all, end all of a state's standing in the union. Having said this, there are still many fighting the Civil War down there ...
No need for censure, his Dem opponent is raising beaucoup $ because of Wilson's idiocy and as I said last night, comedians will have a field day w/this bigot. His (15) minutes has begun ...
btw, there must be a lot of Irish/Americans in SC.
Erin Go Braugh!
carry on
How ironic that you would condemn slavery of the 19th century while promoting a new form of slavery: forcing people to pay for other people's health care.
Setting aside the inaccuracies and omissions, the only thing that Schaller's post demonstrates is that South Carolina has, apparently, been opposed to the expansion of federal power and the consequent trampling of liberties for a very long time.
Makes me proud to have such a state in the union.
Further, I didn't see anywhere in Schaller's post anything about the booing(!) and shouts of "liar" by Democrats, interrupting President George Bush's 2005 State of the Union address -- so it's not the shouting "liar" at the President that Schaller opposes, it's the shouting "liar" at a liberal President by a conservative South Carolina representative that he opposes
> forcing people to pay for other people's health care.
And forcing people to pay for other people's wars...
(I think it's called being part of a society.)
On April 5, 1968, at the dinner table, my parents discussed how their New Jersey friends had been shocked by Dr. King's assassination. Having grown up white in middle Georgia, they agreed that that they were appalled, but not even slightly surprised.
Representative Wilson's indecent conduct is, similarly,both horrifying and predictable.
Cute attempt to play the race card.
It is of interest that, in reaction to the Wilson outburst, the Senate is now adding a requirement that recipients of the proposed government health insurance dole prove citizenship.
Reminds me of how, after Palin's death panel postings, the Senate stripped out the subsidy to doctors who counseled their patients about living wills to pull the plug.
It is interesting how the Obamacare critiques that Obama called "lies" last night are forcing changes in the actual Obamacare legislation.
Who again is the liar?
You may be right Tom, but this is not the kind of post one wants to read in this blog.
Joe Wilson’s outburst last night pales in comparison to Harry Reid calling George W. Bush a loser in front of a high school civics class.
And Mr. Reid refused to apologize if I recall correctly.
Of course, Nevada has a history not unlike South Carolina's including "shooting" Abraham Lincoln.
(For those of you that don't know, an upset state Congressman once fired a pistol at a painting of Lincoln hanging in the state house. The painting is still there, bullet hole and all, but I think they're no longer allowed to bring firearms into the building.)
Chris Of Rights said...
high school civics class.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So one is comparing a high school class to a joint session of Congress ...
how many U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians died and are continuing to die for cheney/bush's mistake!
loser is too mild a word, eh.
take care
This site is about whatever it wants to be about. Tom, keep posting what you want!
I enjoyed this post, Tom. As a Bay Stater I always thought of South Carolina as my "bizzaro state." A place where they get equally fired up, but for opposite reasons.
It's amazing how fear has leeched into the minds of conservatives. They have been playing, and winning, off of fear for so long, many no longer realize that it was a tactic.
Let's be honest we each other here: we all engage in stereotyping. Racial stereotyping is, thankfully, seemingly waning slightly, but we all make guesses about who someone is from things as varied as where they are from, who their friends are, how they dress, how they speak, and what kind of car they drive. I know that I have often made broad generalizations about people from every state in the union (mostly to get a laugh). Thus, I tend to dismiss this post; I found the list of factoids about SC interesting, but I don't take it to have a large substantive point.
Of course, others of you may differ. You might, for example, compare the act of keeping people in servitude for a dozen generations, treating them worse than animals are often treated, and then systematically disenfranchising those same people and their descendants for another century (slavery) to the act of trying to help some less fortunate people get health care for a potential cost to individual Americans that isn't particularly large (health care).
Or, one could make the comparison of the demonstrably false and clearly unparliamentary outburst of Wilson against a policy that, while debatably costly, is designed to help people, to the certainly MUCH more true and generally parliamentary grumbling of many liberals in protest of a policy that killed people for reasons that were actually counterproductive.
Finally, one might just ask that we take the point made, at least publicly, that perhaps civil debate is more desirable, and turn down both the hypocrisy and the hyperbole. Joe Wilson was out of line; he didn't ruin the republic. Neither party has a monopoly on their adherents making mistakes. I say Joe Wilson and you remind me of Jim Traficant. We can debate which party is best on race by throwing Strom Thurmond and Harry Byrd at each other.
John said...
This site is about whatever ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So true, if one doesn't like an article, move on ...
or take the time to express your disdain.
America, what a country! ;)
Pity the Daily Show is on vacation.
Thank you, South Carolina!
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-3-2009/thank-you--south-carolina-
@nominalize: If we kicked SC out of the Union, it'd actually be FiveThirtySix. ;) (I call dibs on one of SC's CDs!)
Okay, that said, first things first - I had a bit of fun reading this. Puerile, yes, but fun. It probably was more appropriate for a Kos Diary, though.
But I think that the entire Wilson brouhaha was less indicative of South Carolina being a clusterfuck than it was of the standard of discourse. Seriously, I cannot remember when civil discourse reigned in Washington. When did it last happen - Reagan? Carter? Before that?
Paul said...
How ironic that you would condemn slavery of the 19th century while promoting a new form of slavery: forcing people to pay for other people's health care.
We are already paying for the bills in expensive emergency room care.
Does anyone know where I might get more information on this SC threat to secede from the Confederacy? That sounds interesting.
Reminds me of how, after Palin's death panel postings, the Senate stripped out the subsidy to doctors who counseled their patients about living wills to pull the plug.
It is interesting how the Obamacare critiques that Obama called "lies" last night are forcing changes in the actual Obamacare legislation.
Who again is the liar?
Let's ask Johnny Isakson, the Republican from Georgia who introduced the amendment that got pulled because of Palin's comments, who the liar is:
I just had a phone call where someone said Sarah Palin’s web site had talked about the House bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized. How someone could take an end of life directive or a living will as that is nuts. You’re putting the authority in the individual rather than the government. I don’t know how that got so mixed up. [...]
It empowers you to be able to make decisions at a difficult time rather than having the government making them for you.
So the liar there is either Johnny Isakson or Sarah Palin, you're welcome to pick which one you want it to be.
It is of interest that, in reaction to the Wilson outburst, the Senate is now adding a requirement that recipients of the proposed government health insurance dole prove citizenship.
Incorrect. What actually happened:
Obama's remarks sparked renewed activity on several specific -- and highly controversial -- issues, Conrad said. At Thursday's meeting, the bipartisan group addressed illegal immigrants, abortion and medical malpractice reform.
In particular, Conrad said, the senators were compelled by Obama's speech to revisit previously settled questions about how to ensure that illegal immigrants do not receive benefits under a reformed healthcare system.
"We really thought we'd largely resolved this question of people who are here illegally but, as we reflected on the president's speech last night, we wanted to go back and drill down again [to] make sure that what we'd earlier concluded is right on," Conrad said.
Patrick Yoest has quoted Kent Conrad as saying they are creating a "mechanism" - this seems directly at odds with his larger quote.
Jarv said...
Let's be honest w/each other here: we all engage in stereotyping.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes Virginia we all have fears and prejudices and it's how we deal w/these human frailties which determine how much of a bigot/racist one is.
Peter denied knowing Christ (3) times because of fear and stupidity ie lack of knowledge.
Hey, one could write a book and many have been written ...
and appearance er superficiality can go a long way in determining one's career ie JFK, Reagan, Clinton, Obama etc.
I digress.
BDP:
Puh-lease.
Let me get this straight:
-People make a demonstrably false claim about the bill, but because the claims are sensationalist they get traction in the sounding room of the media (mostly talk radio).
-Congress then reacts to the easily agitated lemmings by changing the bill, either by getting rid of the offending provision (which, actually didn't offend) or adding a provision stating that another provision in the bill should be enforced.
-This somehow proves that the person who made general claims about the desired direction of policy change was duplicitous.
This logic, quite frankly, astounds me. I mean, Obama won the election. As in, he got a majority of votes. The natural extension of your logic is that he is, therefore, RIGHT. When Massachussetts passed gay marriage, by this logic, that made gay marriage RIGHT. More fun, is that gay marriage was RIGHT in California for a few months, and now it is clearly not "the Truth."
The truth value of a statement does not depend on an election, or on a congressional committee's actions.
Joe Wilson's comment was symptomatic of a much larger phenomenon with this president. There is a large segment of the population that simply has become fundamentally irrational in their hatred of Obama. I fully understand not liking health care reform because you fear its consequences (though I disagree with the argument, it has plausibility). But, I don't think I've ever seen any anger as visceral as what I've seen from the GOP base (and some of their representatives) this summer.
how ironic that you would condemn slavery of the 19th century while promoting a new form of slavery: forcing people to pay for other people's health care.
inability to choose one's life, all product of one's work going to another person w/no use for yourself, the probability of being beaten for transgressions, inability to choose and live w/one's mate, restricted ability to speak one's mind...
versus paying taxes so others won't die of diseases.
oh yeah. exactly the same. man, you sure got us pegged.
To the shock and horror of many, I MUST speak up in defense of Congressman Joe Wilson.
First, some disclosure - one of my great-great-grandfathers was born in Beaufort, South Carolina, although later moving to Georgia. And yes, he served in the CSA Army during the Civil War - six months as a private in Co. C, 1st Independent Battalion Georgia State Troops; then, after being mustered out for (currently) unknown reasons, three years as a private in Co. A, 54th Regiment Georgia Infantry.
Fortunately, 3/4th of my heritage was on the Union side during the Civil War.
Now back to Congressman Wilson: The way I see it is that he heard that President Obama would speak in the halls of Congress, but only heard the word 'halls', thought the rules of town halls applied, and carried forth in the manner the Conservatards deem appropriate in those settings.
Basically, he can't help but uphold the upbringing of ill-education that is South Carolina's legacy. Or is it he has a hearing and/or comprehension problem that his doctor hasn't yet diagnosed? Maybe the doctor has diagnosed it, but Congressman Wilson's private insurance company won't allow the doctor to treat the ailment as that would eat into the private insurance company's profits?
In any event, there were outside forces that were involved, and so it was probably not all Congressman Wilson's fault.
An aside to Tom - thank you for posting this. If some on the left can't see through a tongue-in-cheek post, they need to relax a bit. It also must have hit a sore spot for many of posters who site on the Conservatard side of the aisle, because they are now calling you a race-baiter, or equivalent. IMO, it is better to be called a race-baiter erroneously than be an actual race-baiter in fact.
Mike in Maryland
Very much like Cheney's comment about the New York Times columnist being an asshole big time, Wilson calling out Obama for lying about illegal immigrants being able to access taxpayer funded healthcare under his plan is a question as yet unanswered by the left. As I suspect, yes the columnist is an asshole and yes, illegals will have access to the proposed plan. Instead of honestly debating the question at hand, the liberal way is to focus on the questioners credibility.
Let me try to get this unscrambled in my mind.
According to the Conservatards, illegal aliens will be able to get free medical care under the health care.
Under that logic, the doctor/nurse/paramedic would have to check whether the person is or is not a legal resident before they start providing medical services. If the patient is not a legal resident, no services can be provided (which is a violation of the Hippocratic Oath, laws in all 50 states, and Federal legislation).
Is that interpretation correct, Conservatards?
Mike in Maryland
Harrison
"Wilson calling out Obama for lying about illegal immigrants being able to access taxpayer funded healthcare under his plan is a question as yet unanswered by the left"
Actually it has been answered by the right. Factcheck.org is run by conservatives (look up Annenberg).
The Statement:
"All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services."
Factcheck.org - FALSE "the bill does explicitly say that illegal immigrants can’t get any government money to pay for health care"
@Mindless in Maryland:
Having health services provided and having free health insurance are two different things.
Keep trying to unscramble your mind.
I'm from the northeast, but I don't agree with dumping on any state. Each has their pro's and con's and we are all Americans.
Mindless in Maryland said:
illegal aliens will be able to get free medical care under the health care.
What???
The one who drinks watered down wine said...
@Mindless in Maryland:
Having health services provided and having free health insurance are two different things.
Keep trying to unscramble your mind.
May I point you to the message that norman_swingvoter voted at 8:04 pm?
If it is possible for you to comprehend what he wrote, you will see that what FactCheck wrote totally supports my position, and debunks your and your fellow Conservatards LIE about illegal aliens having access to 'free health insurance' under any of the current bills (notice the plural spelling?) in Congress.
Mike in Maryland
In my post at 7:57 pm, I accidently left out one word at the end of the second sentence. It should have read:
According to the Conservatards, illegal aliens will be able to get free medical care under the health care bills.
My apologies to most.
To the Conservatards who don't have the mental prowess to figure out that maybe, possibly, probably something was left out of that sentence, and couldn't for the life of them figure out what that word might be, go blow it out your pie hole. You know the hole I'm talking about - it's the same hole that dispenses the male bovine droppings you are constantly spreading on these pages.
Mike in Maryland
Listen here.
There are 4.5 million people in South Carolina. And you just went on a diatribe dismissing all of them, their families, their histories, their memories, their sense of place, and their homeland as garbage because of the actions of certain members of the state's ruling elite. Every accusation you have flung at this state as being apparently symbolic of the nation's most backward, corrupt, evil tendencies can be modified and flung right back at wherever you come from.
It's easy to pick out instances from the history of any place or group of people as indicative of how terrible they are.
I would like to challenge you to come to Charleston and discuss this with me in person. I will show you around and talk about some of South Carolina and her citizen's wonderful history of accomplishment and advancement in the arts, education, science, philosophy, and government. We can visit some of the beautiful natural and man-made landmarks, including the historic and very highly regarded College of Charleston, which I proudly call my alma mater.
I am a progressive who proudly voted for Barack Obama and has contributed repeatedly to the election of the House's Majority Whip, Jim Clyburn. I was standing in the cold on the National Mall when our president was inaugurated, cheering for democracy and attracting the ire of those around me by booing Rick Warren. In other words, I'm one of you. And I have tremendous respect for Nate and everything he has contributed to the netroots community.
At the very least, I would like an apology to the people of this state for characterizing us like this. The only thing worse than having to live with idoits like Jim DeMint and Mark Sanford and Joe Wilson running around is feeling like the whole nation is against us and wishes we would just leave the country.
Well, I'm an American and I'm not going anywhere. And I sure as hell will reconsider my visiting this site until it gets back to what it was so great at during the election and stops demonizing entire segments of the nation.
And to Mike in Maryland: I don't care what Tom was trying to do, whether it was "tongue-in-cheek" or not. Assuming you have roots there as deep as I do here, I wonder how you'd respond to having Maryland maligned like that because of the actions of a few politicians. I wonder how you'd feel if I said "Oh, I feel sorry for you Marylanders. It's okay. You don't know any better." I wonder what you'd think if I rejected the place where your great-great-grandparents grew up as a hellhole that should be wiped from America's map. Think about it.
andy said...
Well, I'm an American and I'm not going anywhere. And I sure as hell will not be back at FiveThirtyEight until someone takes responsibility for this and apologizes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK, FWIW, I apologize for all the SC bashing. As one cannot judge TX solely on their bat shit crazy governor, perry, who still wants to secede from the union lol.
Would much rather see TX secede than SC. ;) Oops!
carry on
@Mindless in Maryland:
While you were attempting to make coherent sentences you rambled about checking to see if someone is a legal resident before providing services.
This has nothing do with whether or not someone has health insurance.
I agree that this was fundamentally a fluff post. So here's some substance: this isn't the first time Joe Wilson has made angry public accusations of lying when the facts clearly supported his opponent and not him.
"“That is wrong. That’s made up,” Wilson fired back. “I can’t believe you would say something like that.”
When Filner calmly held his ground, advising Wilson to read newspaper reports and other documentation, the Republican erupted: “This hatred of America by some people is just outrageous. And you need to get over that.”
As moderator Connie Brod sat by helplessly, Filner challenged: “Hatred of America? . . . Are you accusing me?”
“Yes!” Wilson shouted. For good measure, over the next minute Wilson accused Filner of harboring “hatred of America” four more times, of being “hateful” three times and of being “viscerally anti-American” once. Filner responded, “This is not worth replying to,” and Brod finally regained control of the discussion by taking viewer phone calls."
This was in response to the charge that "that the U.S. supplied weapons to Saddam Hussein’s regime during the Iran-Iraq War — a fact revealed by the investigation into the Iran-Contra Affair, which discovered the Reagan administration secretly sold weapons to Iran, then under an arms embargo, to win support for freeing U.S. hostages in Lebanon and to fund the Nicaraguan contras, a counterrevolutionary rebel force that was fighting the country’s government."
T'isn't morals, t'is money that saves.
I think this is a great post. They and other states like them (Arkansas I'm looking at you) have been holding back this country since the founding and as a consequence have made the world a worse place to live in.
I have no sympathy for them and hope that every else can escape those states as soon as possible.
I've been coming to 538 for quite a while now... this is the first post that made me feel uneasy.
It's not my place to say what should or should not be on 538, but... well, this makes me less enthusiastic about the site.
Sorry for all the vitriol. I just think that maybe we liberals should not play the same games we accuse the other guys of playing. My family has been in South Carolina since the end of the 17th century. I was born here, I went to school and college here, I met my wife here, I am raising my children here. I know the roads, I know the country, I know the streets of the beautiful city of Charleston, which I wake up and walk out on to every day. I work for a company based here, I shop at Piggly Wiggly, and I attend peace rallies in Marion Square under the incredibly tall statue of John C. Calhoun.
And yet, surprisingly, I am an actual person. An American. With a life, a family, and a history, all tied to this state. Yes, my ancestors tried to secede, and I thank God they failed. My (n*great) uncle died in a Union prison during the war. But my (n*great) grandfather fought alongside Francis Marion in a different war.
And I am proud of all of it. I am proud of South Carolina's history, both for its ups, which we can celebrate, and its downs, which we can learn from.
How would you feel if the rest of the world looked at America, turned up their noses, and scoffed and openly wished we'd go away and never be heard from again, just because our leaders were buffoons?
I have a feeling many of you know what that might feel like.
@Tom:
They aren't Real Americans, eh Tom?
Can't say I find much entertainment in this sort of "Well, what do you expect from Those People" post.
@MIke:
As things stand, illegal aliens will not receive free insurance coverage. The argument is that illegal aliens have so far not been excluded from the mandate/ exchange/ public option etc., that the Democrats specifically voted not to exclude them, and that it is thus misleading to say that "the reforms [Obama is] proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." Even so, of course, to say this makes Obama's statement incorrect would falsely equate existing bills with Obama proposals.
(The objection to allowing inclusion of illegal aliens apparently rests on some questionable premises leading to the conclusion that other users would effectively be subsidizing illegal aliens' health care more than they already do.)
Andy
"How would you feel if the rest of the world looked at America, turned up their noses, and scoffed and openly wished we'd go away and never be heard from again, just because our leaders were buffoons?"
Actually you have a great description of how much of the world does feel about us. I remember when we were the Shining City upon the hill. Now because of the darkness of bush-cheney and the republicans we torture people, illegally wiretap and imprison our own citizens, and have brought both our own and the world economy to the verge of collapse. I hope that we can somehow get on an upward path again.
P.S. Andy I have great memories of Myrtle Beach and "Yes" I DO stop by South of the Border.
The one who drinks watered down wine said...
@Mindless in Maryland:
While you were attempting to make coherent sentences you rambled about checking to see if someone is a legal resident before providing services.
This has nothing do with whether or not someone has health insurance.
So, as I posted earlier, you are against free enterprise? You are against someone with the means to purchase health insurance being able to purchase that insurance?
What a shocking revelation!
Mike in Maryland
BTW - anyone notice that certain other TROLLs are MIA today?
All I have to say is that this post reminds me of the infantile flame wars we often see in the comments section. Truly disappointing.
As a African-American, I have very cold feelings towards the Southern penchant for antebellum nostalgia. I have little sympathy for soldiers who died trying to split this nation in two over the "right" of slavery. I am disgusted by modern far-right attempts to paint the CSA as a righteous exercise against federal power. I am offended whenever a Republican wants to lecture me about the Democrat's racist past without going into why Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond changed their party affiliation. And I think that to react to this article by talking up "all the good people" in South Carolina is laughable. Of course there are good people in South Carolina. There's good people everywhere. There's good people in North Korea, there were good people in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
But a land is only as good as its leaders. And SC's leaders have, as Tom noted, spent centuries opposing human rights of all stripes, to the point where South Carolina was practically the epicenter of racist, segregationist politics. That's evil, btw. (to SC's credit, I will note that they ranked a mere 9th place in lynching statistics - http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html)
Talk of spitefully excising states out of the Union is silly. But you can't ignore the ugly side of history. Hell, I'm a Philadelphia sports fan, imagine how I feel when I read about Jackie Robinson....
Anyone trying to defend that state is misguided. I grew up there and left a long time ago, which led me to really appreciate just how backwards it is.
SC people, if you want to be taken seriously, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. The problems there are deeply systematic.
Good luck.
Mike in Maryland said...
" BTW - anyone notice that certain other TROLLs are MIA today?"
well, you're around, so that's one that's not MIA
Jarv said...
BDP: Puh-lease. Let me get this straight:
-People make a demonstrably false claim about the bill, but because the claims are sensationalist they get traction in the sounding room of the media (mostly talk radio).
-Congress then reacts to the easily agitated lemmings by changing the bill, either by getting rid of the offending provision (which, actually didn't offend) or adding a provision stating that another provision in the bill should be enforced.
-This somehow proves that the person who made general claims about the desired direction of policy change was duplicitous.
This logic, quite frankly, astounds me...
That is your spin, not my logic.
Obama stated in no uncertain terms that Obamacare did not provide government health care dole to illegal aliens.
In fact, the Obamacare legislation did nothing to prevent Obamacare from providing government health care dole to illegal aliens.
This omission was intentional as the Dems voted twice against GOP amendment to enforce Obama's claim.
Obama was unbelievably ignorant or flat out lying and Wilson was correct, albeit impolite, to point out that fact.
It is no accident that the Senate inserted the GOP enforcement provisions after the Wilson outburst.
This morning, a Denver radio news station in that Blue city asked folks to email the station to comment on the Wilson outburst and the reaction was 3-1 in favor of Wilson. While conservatives are greater news consumers than liberals, the fact that Denver had this kind of lopsided reaction says volumes.
In Tom's post, what does Congressman Joe Wilson (remember, since he is a Congressman, that means he is an elected official) have in common with all the other individuals named in that post?
John C. Calhoun: A member of the South Carolina legislature, Vice President, then US Senator (twice). In other words, an elected official.
Congressman Preston Brooks: A member of the South Carolina House, then served in the US House. In other words, an elected official.
Senator Strom Thurmond: Governor of South Carolina, then US Senator. In other words, an elected official.
Governor James Byrnes: Governor of South Carolina. In other words, an elected official.
And Tom also mentioned acts and actions by the South Carolina state legislature over a period of time. In other words, elected officials.
By implication, Tom mentioned the Attorney General (when he referenced the Brown v. Board of Education ruling). In other words, elected officials.
And then (though Tom didn't mention him) we have the current Governor of South Carolina (another elected official) who apparently likes hiking the Appalachian Trail, then lies about what he was doing until outed.
What does that say about the electorate of South Carolina? Seems to me that they are insistent on electing boors to office. If they consistently elect boors to office, what does that say about a majority of the electorate in South Carolina. . . ?
Mike in Maryland
If "consistently elect boors" is established by a dozen or so examples over more than two hundred years, then it says they're just like everyone else.
"While conservatives are greater news consumers than liberals"
Thanks Bart, I need a good laugh! I know some rabid conservatives. I can't have an intelligent conversation with them. All they can do is respond with talking points from talk radio and republican propraganda memos. I call that brainwashing, not consuming the news.
Yeah, Bart, it does say volumes...about the people that listen to talk radio and send e-mails to talk radio hosts. But I don't think it says what you think it does. The GOP is led by talk radio and cable TV personalities. What happened last night was, therefor, inevitable. The party of Lincoln, TR, Ike and Reagan has become the party of Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
By the way, Wilson also called Strom Thurmond's biracial daughter a liar.
"It's a smear on the image that [Thurmond] has as a person of high integrity who has been so loyal to the people of South Carolina," Wilson said.
It is sort of mean to trash a member state of the Union, especially one that has been around so long and has kept things interesting. But really, in all the things South Carolina has done to offend the Union, where have they ever been successful? The state is like our lovable loser, that tries and tries again but still can't seem to get it done.
Even Preston Brooks' legacy is spotty. He challenged, then cowered out of a duel with a friend of Sumner's from Massachusetts, and then died of the croup before the Civil War. Sumner later became one of the harshest Radical Republicans during and after the Civil War, helping inflict a 20-year colonial-style beating on the entire South that made the British in India look like saints.
norman_swingvoter said...
All they can do is respond with talking points from talk radio and republican propraganda memos. I call that brainwashing, not consuming the news.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sounds just like BDP.
Tom,
I usually enjoy reading your posts, but to be quite honest, this one pissed me off more than you can possibly ever know. I'm from Mississippi, a state that has certainly had its share of bad - no, horrible - race relations.
But let me get this right: A little-known Republican congressman from South Carolina opens his stupid mouth and calls the President a liar and, for no apparent reason, you get on your little computer inside your little office and post an incindiary, out-right nasty article about RACE RELATIONS in his HOME STATE of all things, with some facts dating back to the 1700s? I mean, seriously? Not to mention the article had obvious omissions and cherry-picked facts, some of which I'm sure questionable if researched. This is utterly ridiculous, and you should be ashamed.
Tom, I sincerely hope you will post a new article - one telling of all the positive things that have come out of South Carolina. But if you don't, then you should at least post a nasty article about Nevada and every horrid detail of its past. As I'm sure you remember, when President George W. Bush was in office, Senator Harry Reid called him a liar on Meet the Press of all places and refused to rescind the comments.
Let me give you a great example of racial progress in the South. I live in Covington County, Mississippi, a sparsely populated (20,000) area in south central Mississippi. Voting is, yes, racially polarized. But blacks and whites get along. They go to school together, shop together, work together, and do everything else together with two exceptions: whites and blacks attend different churches (for the most part) and vote differently. However, our county (63% white, 37% black) just elected the first Republican ever in countywide office (Sheriff), as well as the first African-American (Circuit Clerk, a woman at that). The black woman won the Democratic primary over a white man 54-46% then turned around and beat a Republican woman 55-45% in the general election. The new Republican sheriff won with 57% in a three-way race over a black man and another white man. I happened to vote for both the black female circuit clerk and the male Republican sheriff.
Good things are happening in the South - really good things. Have you ever even been to South Carolina, Tom? Whether you have or not, I urge you to come to the second state to secede from the Union, Mississippi. I'll take you on a tour from the sprawling suburban DeSoto County south of Memphis through the agricultural Delta region on down through my home area all the way to the coast. You'll see what America is all about: the people that make this land great - black and white, rich and poor, urban and rural. But until then, do us all a favor and keep your mouth shut.
"Why such fury--or, for that matter, surprise--at Joe Wilson's "liar" outburst last night?"
Your points about the history of SC are well-taken. Nobody should be surprised at Wilson's outburst. But regardless of the history you outline, or arguably because of it, indignation is both the appropriate and politically astute response to Wilson's idiocy.
Goddammit. Mike, GROG, why don't you two both fly to Iowa and frolic through the corn fields? Get a courthouse marriage, that type of deal.
Seriously, I think you two would make a very good couple.
Bart DePalma,
Your example of the Denver radio news stations is most likely so far from a representative sample that I'd imagine a 1-3 is a pretty good showing for Wilson detractors. It's a well-known fact that among "news" sources, radio has the most ideologically skewed audience. FOX News probably has a more ideologically balanced audience than most radio "news".
Tyler, saying something is "a well-known fact" reminds me of the character Cliff Claven from the TV show Cheers. He thought he knew everything. He drank beer. FOX has an "Ideologically balanced audience?" Sounds like you drank the right-wing Kool-aid.
"it's also the state that produced Stephen Colbert"
Also, Jasper Johns and William Gibson. The mind boggles indeed.
Why does the author think that what the readers of 538 really want out of this blog isn't insightful, empirical analysis but a marginally-coherent, classist rant mischaracterizing irrelevant historic minutiae?
Wow, just... wow.
I have been simply amazed at what has been going on here today, on both sides.
Ladies and gentleman. Like it or not, SC is part of our family. We might not get along with them, we might not even like them, but they are still part of the family.
I did not take Tom's thread as a indictment on the whole population of SC, however, I am not from there, so I was not personally offended. I was personally offended in the lack of progressive thought throughout the commentaries.
What should we come away with from all of this? Should we continue to allow a family member go on with their destructive behaviors and intolerant views, and justify it with, "That's just the way they are?"
No! We want this family to be whole. It will be beyond idealistic to expect everyone to believe every American will have similar political leanings in six hundred years or more, but it doesn't mean we give up on them.
Instead of preaching to the choirs (NE and the Coasts), a mass progressive project should go down to SC, and other states like it, and begin to teach the word of tolerance and respect.
I know I will get bashed for this. INDOCTRINATION, SOCIALISM, POPULIST TAKEOVER. This is how I feel. A person in need is deserving of a helping hand. If we don't like SC's elected officials for the past three hundred years, then stop complaining about it and do something.
Also, for what it's worth, I'm from Charleston. Graduated from Wando High School in Mount Pleasant. South Carolina is an okay place. The coast especially is lovely, outside of Hilton Head and Myrtle Beach. The marshlands and the Intracoastal Waterway are breathtaking at sunrise. Gullah cuisine alone is worth the price of admission. And South Carolina produces a lot of BMWs and Hondas, so that's a useful thing.
I think what people need to realize about South Carolina is that it perfectly blends the knee-jerk anti-Northeast sentiment of the Deep South with an East Coast sense of ideological entitlement. That's how you get the conservativism of, say, Alabama, mixed with the cultivated political aggressiveness of a state like Maryland. It's an educated place, but not educated enough. It's got cities, but they're not big enough to affect the culture of the state. It's got money, but all the money is concentrated in the hands of country club types who drive $45,000 pickup trucks. That's why South Carolina will never be the most conservative state in the country, but it will typically be the first to stick its conservative foot in its mouth, given the chance.
Joe Wilson acted in a childish and impulsive fashion...indisputably a breach of decorum.
Rather reminiscent of the boy who naively spoke up and revealed that the emperor was wearing no clothes.
Let us not forget who it was that began throwing around the words "lie" and "lying." Twas the emperor himself who got down in the gutter and set a bad example for "juvenile" Joe.
what a bunch of crybabies. If someone said NYers were rude turds I would be forced to agree (we are).
VOB,
Some people are just not as thick skinned as New Yorkers, or for that matter, people from Joisey. My home state.
When you grow up being the butt of jokes it sort of desensitizes you. I would argue the people of SC are very proud of who they are, and are not used to the smack down they received over one little statement on one the largest stages of the world.
The fact-of-the-matter is they are who they are, and we are who we are. Where is the Love? Someone has to be the adult.
Good post, this information is very relevant and it'll show where you can still find such information for the study of this topic?
Interesting background info, but veering too much from the core purpose of this site... numbers not opinions.
Lies or perspectives?
Obama did not lie in the sense that the bill explicitly says that illegal immigrants cannot receive the tax allotments that would subsidize purchasing health care with the new system.
However, illegal immigrants could continue to be covered under employee insurance (as they are today), purchase a personal policy with their own money (as they can today), or purchase a new policy from this new insurance gateway at full price with their own money (similar to what they can do today).
The Republicans see that opportunity to purchase coverage, even if it is unsubsidized, as covering illegal immigrants under the plan. This despite the fact that there will be no benefit to the immigrant in doing so, unless the plan does in fact drive down cost, at which point even purchasing a plan from a commercial firm would be receiving a benefit.
Additionally they point to the fact that a removed amendment to the bill requiring the use of the SAVE system (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) provides illegal immigrants a loop hole. This assumes that whatever government agency administering the new plan will not put measures into place to verify eligibility unless specifically mandated by Congress and will simply allow anyone who checks a box to receive benefits.
The problem with that assumption is that no other agency is specifically legislated to use a particular system or method to define eligibility.
"The SAVE Program does not make determinations on any applicant's eligibility for a specific benefit or license."
"The SAVE Program does not verify status for employment."
SAVE is a system for accessing immigration status. It cannot be used to verify employment or benefit eligibility. If the said illegal immigrant lies about who they are, provides false documentation, etc., SAVE will have zero impact. If the illegal immigrant decides to pay full out of pocket for coverage SAVE does nothing. Any state agency administering the program will still have to put policies in place to administer the program and prevent fraud and abuse. These programs should not be defined in the bill. That would disallow flexibility for the agency and require further changes in law if new and better services or programs become available.
It should be sufficient to say in law that illegal immigrants cannot take advantage of the tax options and allow the agency to create policy and process to meet the letter and spirit of the law.
So the president can say that he's not a liar, and that's the truth. And the Republicans can say he is a liar and that's their truth.
nhavar said...
Lies or perspectives?
And the Republicans can say he is a liar and that's their truth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Before the election, Reps called Obama, ok won't go thru the massive list again, but suffice it to say, they threw the kitchen sink at him to no effect. Now they are continuing the same politically bankrupt tactic, which begs the question: Who are the Reps trying to talk to using all these ad hominems, racial slurs, scare phrases: the youth vote, minorities, moderate independents, the religious right, intellectuals, the upper class.
No Virginia, imo the party of No! is talking to the same idiot yahoos who didn't vote for Obama in 2008 and would never vote for him regardless ie their dwindling choir.
Addition by subtraction won't work for the party of no! as these folk will either stay home or vote for independents. The Reps made their bed the last (8) years w/cheney/bush and now they must lie in it!
Awesome. I can see how using one idiots display of stupidity as an opportunity to vilify an entire state will move us in the direction of a meaningful and constructive national discourse.
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Congress didn't heckle Lyndon Johnson like that during the Vietnam War or Richard Nixon during the Watergate scandal. Congress didn't even show that kind of bitterness and aggression toward George W. Bush, who did lie -- specifically, about the intelligence that his administration relied on to justify an unnecessary war that has cost 4,300 American lives and enough money to fund Obama's health care proposals for a decade.
Wilson issued a statement of apology after the speech, saying he had "let my emotions get the best of me" and calling his interjection "inappropriate and regrettable." As apologies go, it sounded insincere -- a variant of the "mistakes were made" dodge. In fact, however, the right-wing Republicans in Congress, especially those in the House, are all too sincere. And that's the problem.
Last November's election so wounded the GOP that the nation is now suffering collateral damage. The Republicans who were punished at the polls for the failures of the Bush years were those in the most evenly contested districts, which meant they tended to be relatively moderate. Those who represent solidly Republican districts were safe, and their greatest fear isn't being defeated by a Democrat next fall but being challenged by a primary opponent who's even more of a right-wing yahoo.
There are quite a few Democratic pragmatists in Congress -- which is why health care reform is being worked over so thoroughly by the Blue Dogs. In the Republican ranks, especially in the House, pragmatists are few and ideologues are legion. Many of them probably believe the nonsense they spout about creeping socialism and an urgent threat to America As We Know It. But it's still nonsense. The ideologues' sincerity just makes this toxic, rejectionist rhetoric more dangerous.
I have less of a problem with Joe Wilson heckling the president than with Wilson being dead wrong. If it weren't a demonstrably false claim, I wouldn't care so much. Frankly, I think the president, whomever and of whichever party he might be, probably out to face a heckler or two from time to time, keep him on his toes and defending his policies.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Obama, being a minority w/his truly unique American background is well suited for his current job having proved it in the primary and general.
Does anyone remember ;) the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright controversy and how he handled it. That alone could have ended his campaign. Although he can give a rousing speech when needed he is a rather low key individual. Many say too low key lol.
In a way, he is the Jackie Robinson of presidential politics, he has to control his emotions and never lose his poise while being the leader of a country that has a (400) year history of racial oppression. Being raised in Hawaii and Indonesia probably prepared him much better than if he had been raised in the inner city and of course his mother and grandparents were white.
Truly a unique individual who wanted to be president from an early age and achieved his goal by hard work, circumstance, luck and knowledge, much like Clinton and unlike many previous presidents who were born w/a silver spoon ...
Sycophant is spelled with an h ;)
I like Swiff's comment. Very good.
Now I must hang my head in shame because I live in Kansas.
On a serious note, Tom's post was interesting from a historical perspective. But it's hard for me to be too tribalist when it comes to individual states because I've moved around the country my whole life. I'm not being sarcastic about Swiff's comment, though, I do think he made some great points.
As for Wilson, he was horribly out of line but he also was quick to apologize.
Censure is not necessary because judging from the amount of cash his opponent Rob Miller is collecting Wilson is about to lose his job anyway. Unless he tries to backpeddle
on his apology, I think pushing for censure would just make the Democrats
look vindictive and petty.
Surely I'm late, but what are op-eds doing on this site? Please stop....
I'm sorely disappointed that this vitriolic drivel made it to the front page of what had been my favorite politics site. I grew up in South Carolina and still have strong ties to the state, so congratulations on running me off.
While we're bashing my state, let's not forget that it was not until the year 2000 that SC state employees were given MLK day as a paid holiday. Until that time, said employees could choose between celebrating either MLK day in the dead of winter or Confederate Memorial Day in the Spring.
I don't understand some people's emotional attachments to particular states. Don't most people these days experience at least one move across state lines? Who actually grows up in one place and doesn't leave? And why is it we can ridicule NY, NJ and WV but you say anything about the South (aside from CA and FL which people also make fun of all the time) and you get these hypersensitive reactions? I don't get it.
I got election jokes in Florida, corn jokes in Iowa (there's more than just corn there!) and creationism jokes in Kansas. But we can't touch South Carolina?!
How do you find Texas? You go west until you smell sh*t, that's Oklahoma. Then you go south until you step in it, that's Texas!
Yes, it's true, the old jokes from grade school are the best. Particularly TX jokes.
I'll be here all wk and please tip the waitresses ...
Being from OH, we have the mistake on the lake, the drive, the fumble, the Indians who were not in a pennant race from 1959 to 1995 and amazingly are still in Cleveland after a (20) year period when there was nothing but moving to FL talk. The Browns, who relocated to Baltimore, were reborn and still suck!
And speaking of politics, Wayne Hayes/Elizabeth Ray, Jim Trafficant, 7/8 presidents (2) of which were assassinated, Garfield/McKinley (1) Harding, died mysteriously in office.
but, but, but the first African/American American League baseball player, Larry Doby, 1947 and coincidentally the last time the Indians won the world series was 1948.
And Paul Brown, who had African/American players on the Cleveland Browns when they formed in 1946 because he didn't care about skin color, he only cared about winning football games, I digress.
Perhaps Joe Wilson let his frustration get the best of him in his interruption of the President. I am not going to excuse him but I would say that his frustration likely mirrors that of many citizens and not just South Carolinians. With regard to my beautiful home state, if we are such a bad place, why are we being so covered by those moving in from every part of the country. I am proud to be from the South and to be a South Carolinian! And for the record...I have a Masters Degree from the College of Charleston whose academics rank very well with schools all over the country.
Cheryl, doesn't it bother you more that Mr. Wilson was simply wrong about what he said? Nobody wants to subsidize illegal aliens for their health care coverage. If Mr. Wilson gets so incensed on the issue, then he should be well aware of that. That's what he should apologize for. I mean, we all let something slip from time to time. What he should do is stand up, admit he was objectively incorrect, and then move on.
Great post. Yes there is good and bad about every state, but SC is a state that has a long and checkered past w/ regard to governing in an enlightened fashion.
Also, not too long ago, their disgraced governor tried to stop federal stimulus funds from helping the state. It reflects better on the state that action by the gov. proved very unpopular.
"This is also the state which became the first to secede from the Union to start the Confederacy"
To which Charleston lawyer and unionist James Petigru responded "South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum.".
"And it was this state's Clarendon County, not Topeka, that was the original case that later became... the landmark Brown v. Board of Education ruling."
The case was "Briggs vs Elliot", RW Elliot being the chairman of the Clarendon County School Board and Harry Briggs the man who brought the suit. Richard Kluger's Simple Justice contains an excellent chapter on the origins of the case.
"This is a state where loyalists rallied by the British as part of their "Southern Strategy"--the Brits' term, not mine--recaptured South Carolina from the patriots in 1780 as part of a plan to flip SC and Georgia and roll northward from there to smother the very revolution that birthers and tea partiers and Glenn Beck sycophants point to today as inspiration."
Yes, and the British did roll northward, chased by the Continental Army under the command of RI's Nathaniel Greene, to Yorktown, VA. While holding Charleston, the British Army was never able to subdue the Carolina countryside due to, in great measure, the actions of local guerrilla fighters, led by Francis Marion, Thomas Sumter and others. It was eerily similar to the Vietnam War.
My family's roots in SC go back to the colonial era. Joe Wilson is a typical product of the state's leadership. That leadership continues to lead a state that leads the nation in poverty and ignorance, as it has for centuries. There is little reason for optimism here.
Chip Moore said...
That leadership continues to lead a state that leads the nation in poverty and ignorance
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also unemployment is high in SC which is why I couldn't figure out why the brain dead "pundits" kept mentioning Sanford as a possible Rep pres candidate in 2012 and this was before he hiked the Appalachian Trail down to Argentina ...
Chip Moore said...
Joe Wilson is a typical product of the state's leadership. That leadership continues to lead a state that leads the nation in poverty and ignorance. . . .
Actually, that is almost, but not quite correct. According to the Census Bureau's 'The 2009 Statistical Abstract: State Rankings' (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/rankings.html):
South Carolina does beat 11 states in the number of persons 25 years old and over with a bachelor's degree or more (2007)
South Carolina beats 11 states in the per cent of persons below the poverty level (2007)
South Carolina beats 9 other states in median household income (2007)
In actual 'lead the nation' stats, South Carolina is numero uno in violent crimes per 100,000 population (2006)
South Carolina is the leading state of mobile homes as a percent of total housing unites (2007). I have nothing against mobile homes per se, as my brother and sister-in-law started in a mobile home until they had saved enough to build a conventional home. However, mobile homes, especially when the residents don't move out of mobile homes to conventional housing, are indicative of lower-income, lower-education areas in North America, and are also very prominent in areas that have boom and bust business cycles - think oil industry.
Mike in Maryland
South Carolina? http://christianexodus.org/
Have you seen the photographs and the video of Joe in action? I mean, he has the facial expressions (soft signs) of someone with some kind of disability. I don't know, maybe some brain damage there.
Look, if America is going to get back to being the great country it really is, we have find suitable jobs for illiterates and people with Joe’s problem (not really sure what it is). I mean after 8 years of Bush, don't you see where we were headed? We are back from the brink!
Given that it is unlikely any president has ever given a speech without lying, I find the "furor" over this absurd. Of course he was lying, he is a politician.
For Wilson, considering the politics in his district, likely picked up two votes for every one he may have lost. The behavior in the British Parliament is a lot more honest. When the Prime Minister is blowing smoke he gets called on it. This was a good day for American politics.
The White House had to make further moves to exclude illegal immigrants from the exchanges. This is a terrible idea, but supports the contention that without this step federal money would have helped support insurance for illegal immigrants. In other words, discourteous or not, motivated by racism and xenophobia or not, pandering to his right wing district or not, Wilson was correct on the substance.
I found the history regarding Confederate Memorial Day an interesting read.
My father was born in Berea, SC in the late 30's and lived there until going to college. He says he was unaware of the existence of Confederate Memorial Day until 1964, when he began working for the state of Georgia, which celebrated this as a paid holiday.
Perhaps the description of whites largely ignoring the Fourth of July in favor of Confederate Memorial Day is more applicable to the southern part of the state which contains plantations and confederate blue-bloods. It is a shame to tar the citizens of an entire state for the traditions of those in a limited geographical area.
Mike in Maryland" says
"According to the Census Bureau's 'The 2009 Statistical Abstract: State Rankings' (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/rankings.html):
South Carolina does beat 11 states in the number of persons 25 years old and over with a bachelor's degree or more (2007)"
From 2001 to 2006, according to the National Center for Education Statistics at the Department of Education, SC was dead last in high school graduation rates for every year save 2003, when the District of Columbia edged it out for last place. (I'm ignoring the Nevada stats, which look strange. From 2001 - 2003, the Nevada graduation rate was over 70%. From 2004 - 2006, the rate was around 55%.) (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2009/section3/indicator19.asp)
For more on the deplorable state of rural public schools in SC, see Bud Ferillo's documentary, "Corridor of Shame".
Chip,
Thanks for the information. I'll admit I was relying on a single source for a single year of information, and that can sometimes be dangerous.
Let's just say that South Carolina is, if not the lowest, it is very, very low on the education front, shall we?
Mike in Maryland
"Let's just say that South Carolina is, if not the lowest, it is very, very low on the education front, shall we?"
Agreed.
SC schools have been underfunded and inadequate for forever. On archive.org, you can find a NAACP doc about African-American schools in SC in the 1930s. It is useful background for understanding the Brown vs. Board of Education cases. My mother told me once that the average level of schooling in Horry County, SC (Myrtle Beach is in this county.) in 1960 was 4th grade. I hope that number has improved.
My sister's son (They live in Columbia.) is a freshman at Furman University in Greenville, SC. Last weekend she stated the fear that SC parents have faced for generations, "I hope [my son] doesn't have to leave the state to find his career."
That fear dates to at least the first half of the 19th century, when the sons of the planter class started leaving for the gulf states to find land. And today, a SC mother is still worried about where her son may have to go to make his life.
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