Back in April, when there was a round of several hundred "tea party" protests across the country to coincide with Tax Day, I devoted significant attention to figuring out how many people had actually attended the rallies. The best figure I could come up with was at least 300,000 -- "at least" being an important caveat because there were dozens of smaller tea party protests for which no reliable crowd size estimates were available. The real number was probably something between 350,000 and 400,000.
This was, I believed at the time and continue to believe, a relatively impressive figure. It is also one that liberals were silly to be so predictably and universally dismissive of. Indeed, the protests were a harbinger for the tough slog ahead for Democrats on health care and other issues. Yes, the grievances that these protesters had may have been somewhat disconnected, and their rank might have run the gamut from ordinary, red-meat conservatives and to the black helicopter set. But, anger is still anger -- and a lot of people, self-evidently, were angry.
At the same time, in attempting to cobble together literally hundreds of independent, local newspaper reports to come up with this figure, I learned a few things about the gamesmanship involved in the reporting of crowd size estimates. Namely, there is a lot of misleading information out there -- some resulting from deliberate lies from protest organizers who exaggerate about how many people they'd drawn to their events, and some of it arising more innocently -- estimating the size of a crowd actually isn't all that easy, particularly if you're in the midst of one. This misinformation, moreover, tended to be self-perpetuating: an organizer might tell a reporter from a local radio station that they'd drawn 3,000 people to their event (when really they'd drawn 800); the 3,000 figure would be picked up by the local TV station, and then the next day on by the local newspaper, which had heard the number on TV. At each stage of the process, as in a game of "telephone", the fidelity of the information was degraded. Perhaps the appropriate context on the number (that it had not been independently verified) had been dutifully reported by the radio station -- but by the time the the transmission had made its way to the newspaper, that context had been lost. The Atlanta rally, for instance, was reported by the local CBS station to have drawn some 15,000 persons -- a figure which, it was later discovered, would quite literally have been physically impossible.
Usually, though, these exaggerations were contained within some reasonable bounds. The estimate reported by CBS Atlanta, for example, appears to have been about double the actual crowd size in that city. I found other cases in which there might have been a threefold or fourfold discrepancy between the numbers claimed by protesters and those provided by local fire departments or sheriff's offices. But almost never more than that -- at some point, a lie ceases to be credible. And of course, there were many protest organizers that provided perfectly honest estimates of their turnouts. I even came across a couple of cases in which they appeared to have lowballed the numbers relative to the estimates provided by independent observers.
But yesterday, someone told a real whopper. ABC News, citing the DC fire department, reported that between 60,000 and 70,000 people had attended the tea party rally at the Capitol. By the time this figure reached Michelle Malkin, however, it had been blown up to 2,000,000. There is a big difference, obviously, between 70,000 and 2,000,000. That's not a twofold or threefold exaggeration -- it's roughly a thirtyfold exaggeration.
The way this false estimate came into being is relatively simple: Matt Kibbe, the president of FreedomWorks, lied, claiming that ABC News had reported numbers of between 1.0 and 1.5 million when they never did anything of the sort. A few tweets later, the numbers had been exaggerated still further to 2 million. Kibbe wasn't "in error", as Malkin gently puts it. He lied. He did the equivalent of telling people that his penis is 53 inches long.
Malkin, who to her credit later corrected the error, frets that it might be used to by liberals to "discredit the undeniably massive turnout". She's right to be worried -- it absolutely will be used that way. If you don't want to be discredited, then don't, as Kibbe did, tell a ridiculous (and easily disprovable) lie.
Malkin herself did not lie; she merely repeated a lie. It does not particularly call into question her character. It does, however, call into question her judgment. The reason is that if there had in fact been 2 million protesters in Washington yesterday, there would have been no need to lie about it -- the magnitude of the protests would have been self-evident. I was in Washington for the inauguration, an event at which there really were almost 2 million people present -- and let me tell you, it was a Holy Mess. Hotels, charging double or treble their usual rates, were booked weeks in advance. Major stations on the Metro system were shut down for hours at a time. The National Guard was brought in. At least 3,000 people got stuck in a tunnel. Essentially the entirely of the National Mall, from the Capitol to the Washington Monument, was dotted with onlookers. Heaps of trash were left behind. The entire city was basically a warzone for a period of about 20 hours, from midnight through mid-evening.
But there are no accounts of any of those sorts of things happening yesterday. 70 thousand people, rather, is about the number that will attend the Washington Redskins' home opener next week. That's a lot of people. Washington -- actually Landover, Maryland, where FedEx Field is located -- will be inconvenienced. But it won't be shut down. Business will go on more or less as usual.
This was not a small rally. It was also not, in comparison with something like the 2006 pro-immigration protests, a particularly large rally. It was a business-as-usual sort of rally. Mock the protesters at your peril: business as usual suddenly isn't so good for Democrats these days, and the sentiments of the 70,000 people who marched on Washington surely mirror those of millions more sitting at home. They were done a disservice by being represented by a liar like Kibbe.
9.13.2009
Size Matters; So Do Lies
by Nate Silver @ 3:30 AM...see also tea parties
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290 comments
Wow. All alone out here in Hawaii. And... I...am... FIRST!
Ok, moving on, thanks for touching on this number bungling, Nate. We've had quite the go around with one Bart (Louis's cousin) DePalma on yesterday's thread.
It's interesting the reporting (under/over) of crowd sizes for political gain or just wishful thinking. With Bart, of course, it's both, but, hey, who cares, he's holed up in Woodland Park, CO on the back side of Pikes Peak with his Smith & Wesson.
I Love how you very subtly comment on the true size of Kibbe's penis, which according to my math must be about 1.76 inches long.
By comparison with Kibbe, Pinnochio got off relatively easy.
Of course, my favorite line of Bart's is: "Conservatives generally do not protest, we have jobs and families. Usually we do our political protesting at the ballot box." These high minded examples of polite society, how could I be so wrong...
Not that I am dismissive of 70,000 people marching on Washington, like Nate said, it's as many that will fill RFK (sorry, I don't do Brand Name Stadiums, Mile High will always be Mile High), but, really, these people need to be inserted with chips and monitored to make sure they do not co-mingle with children. Whoops, that's my liberal smugness coming out, sorry.
Obama, May of last year before he was president, appeared before 75,000 in Portland, Oregon and October before 100,000 in St. Louis, Missouri!
These events of course, were more or less spontaneous, not astro turf organized like yesterday.
Meet me in St. Louis Louis ...
carry on
p.s. Berlin ... 200,000 at ObamaFest.
Obama/Biden 2012 ~ So it shall be written, so it shall be done!
The same thing happened with the tea parties. The numbers grew each minute due to commentators on tv. These protests don't have anywhere close to anti-war protests. The thing is that the media loves to cover them due to the headlines (The sign "Bury Obamacare with Kennedy" and the like).
This post was worth the price of admission just for the mental image of Matt Kibbe telling people that his penis is 53 inches long. :)
I think too much attention is being given to crowd size. Who cares if it was 70 thousand or 7 million, they don't have a coherent aim or protestation.
Are they against higher taxes (which haven't been raised on them)? Are they against bigger government? Are they fighting for states rights? First Amendment rights? Second Amendment rights? Are they anti-abortion? Are they deficit hawks (who ignored actual excesses of the Bush administration)? Are they against healthcare reform (but still pro-Medicare)? Do they just hate Democrats, and specifically abhor Obama? [Are they just xenophobic and racist?]
They just don't know. And, as long as THEY don't know, people are simply jumping the gun in trying to make sense of any aspect of their protests. They're angry. Fine. But, anger without focus is just about as constructive for them as a tornado is for a small town. In fact, I think the tornado analogy is apropos.
They're just a whirlwind of hot air blowing around destroying everything in their path -- namely civility, right now. Will there be collateral damage? Sure. But, just like a tornado, it's unpredictable. What will be destroyed? Will they kill healthcare? Not likely. Will they stop the "evil" Pelosi and "fascist/socialist" (what a combo!) Obama from leading the Democratic Party to do what they were soundly elected to do? Not likely.
I would say that, of all the potential damage to be considered, the Republican Party is more likely to be destroyed (or maimed) than anything or anyone associated with the Democratic party. If anything, this "Tea Party" faction has the potential, if harnessed [Can you harness the power of a tornado?], to be a viable alternative for right-leaning/right-wing voters. But, unless it's harnessed, it's just sound and fury, signifying fury -- fury with no particular aim.
Well, the point is that it was a lot of people, and ones who have a laundry list of frustrations that rarely get airing on network coverage. Now, maybe there will be more media recognition of the loyal opposition's complaints.
Sure, it is stupid for an organizer to exaggerate crowd size, but that doesn't invalidate those who showed up or their message. There are scientificly valid ways of estimating crowd size, and so often the authorities are shooting from the hip as much as any other guesser.
Speaking of lies, now that the dissemblements of Obama's health care speech have received some attention, is he going to apologize to Joe Wilson? A shame that we have a president who thinks tht half-truths are substitutable for truth.
@verity: But you slip into the same trap that Nate pointed out - you dismiss the Tea Partiers' impact because they're "incoherent."
But the problem is, right now a lot of Democrats have majority Republican constituents. Look at the Nelsons. Look at a lot of the House Blue Dogs.
Plus, you could say the same about a lot of war protests. That they were incoherent, and went for pretty much the entire gamut of liberal thought. It was anger for the sake of being angry. The Republicans dismissed those concerns.
How'd that work out for them?
I'm not saying that the Tea Partiers should be elevated to the same level of discourse as foreign dignitaries. I am saying, though, that displayed anger in all directions Democratic should be duly noted.
@Rudy: I know. It's especially horrible when our President instigates a war in another country (while we're already at war in one country) based on flawed intelligence. ;)
Don't know what you're talking about Rudy. Wilson has been pretty thoroughly discredited, and even voted to provide health care funding for immigrants at one point, so there. Perhaps you should stop watching Fox and listening to Rush, hmm?
I think Nate's bigger point here is one worth thinking on for liberals. The fact that 70,000 is a substantial number. I don't think we should be scoffing at it. I think we should be trying to figure out how best to explain our policies so as to answer some of the concerns of the protestors.
But lets keep focussed on the issue. This is important stuff, the left needs to keep in the game on healthcare and not let the right control the message. To me Obama's speech yesterday was far more important than the protests. Everyone can lose their healthcare insurance at some point, something needs to be done to ensure wider access and a more ethical insurance industry.
@verity025
'..."fascist/socialist" (what a combo!) Obama...'
Fascist/Socialist/Czarist/Sharia
You can't make this up.
US population: 304,000,000
Tea Party 12.09.2009: lets be generous and say, just for shits and grins, 100,000
that makes 0.000328% of the US population.
That's a miniscule "TEA PARTY" in a HUGE melting top.
As a long time downtown DC resident, I'd guess it was smaller than 60,000. Based solely on inconvenience to me, it felt more like a medium sized breast cancer walk than a protest. I saw more people with patriotic clothes on and public transportation was (ironically?) a bit more crowded than usual. But it was nothing that caused plans to be changed.
Teabagger fail: fake pics to inflate crowd estimate (updated and requesting info)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/12/781227/-Teabagger-fail:-fake-pics-to-inflate-crowd-estimate-(updated-and-requesting-info)
Only 5%-7% of predicted crowd shows for DC tea-bagger rally (updated)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/12/781190/-Only-5-7-of-predicted-crowd-shows-for-DC-tea-bagger-rally-(updated)
Nate, it's pretty hard not to be dismissive of these white supremacist teagaggers when back in April, the FOX Propaganda Nutwork's Neil Cavuto was caught on open mic asking what the crowd estimate was, then literally seconds after recieving the official estimate, grossly inflated it in his live FOX report.
This conversation is juvenile and partisan. Crowd estimates are foolish and faught with HUGE error rates. Oh how the left has complained about this over the years (million man march, anti-war protests, etc.) Now you all reflexively assume the lower estimates because they make you feel better. Malkin's discussion is perfectly fair, and she even links to the lower estimates.
The attacks on Kibbe, aside from being purile in the extreme (beneath Nate, really), ignore the significance of this. They go well beyond the "precentage" of Americans actually present at this enormous protest. This blog is increasingly fixated on this liberalism triumphant, conservatism = racist reactionaries line. Except the triumphant liberals can't get anything done, for some reason. No matter, go on discussing male anatomy. I'm sure it will all work out for the best.
Nate, XKCD just gave you a shout out.
As for the message. Its a small state, low tax, anti-debt message. Pretty simple. The bail out and take over madness is clear. The debt problem is out of sight. As for taxes - everyone who is not Obama cool aid drinker can see that his no tax promise is doomed. Taxes on health benefits seem possible - or a VAT - or a thousand tax increases on things like soda. And let's not forget that state and local taxes have been going up very significantly. Until the president explains the finances of his plans with something other than straight snake oil, he will be vulnerable to the charge that he will need to raise taxes.
Jeff, you imbecile, pictures and videos don't LIE. Conservatives DO. Deal with it.
More wingnut LIES.
http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/12/late-night-the-babble-phlegm-of-the-wingnut-republic-or-whats-a-half-of-million-or-so-give-or-take/
Porridge gun, a Socrates in wisdom and a Cicero in eloquence, as always.
For the normal people on this site, here is a prediction: the increasing and outrageous willingness of liberals to reach for racism as an explanation for their own failures (see Maureen Dowd's slandering of Rep Wilson in today's Times) will backfire. According to Dowd, only Dem presidents get paranoid opposition and "shocking" disrespect. I guess she forgets the booing of Bush in Congress, the Hitler posters of him, the general merriment on the left (Olberman, et al) when a shoe was thrown at him. Then she conjures some liberals fantasy land where the whole congress is sitting there in klan hoods. Pathetic. This is how the protesters are being presented too (by selectively picking fringe signs to display in the paper, etc). It wil backfire, because its not true, and it is a cyncial effort to keep race divisions alive for political gain.
You should all realize that the genesis of the Tea Party movement arose from W's anti-libertarian views, his big government policies, and his total lack of fiscal responsibility. Have things gotten even worse under BO/Pelosi? Yes. But W and his Repub Congress were stinkers too!
Both parties are obsessed with dictating how everyone should live their lives. Butt out! Are taxes too high. Of course. I'm below BO's 250,000 threshold and already pay more than half my income in taxes. For what? Then I see all the "something for nothing" crowd on this site outraged about the resistance to universal health care plans that do nothing to contain costs and are not paid for. I don't see any of you saying that health care is so important that you are willing to contribute your fair share in taxes. Disgusting.
I don't care about the size of the crowd. It was big enough to get attention. Does the movement have a clear message beyond absolute frustration with our government dating back to W's years? No. That's fine with me.
@ inferno:
Yeah, I thought about a potential comparison with the war protests. I know that there were disparate and non-mainstream elements (e.g., 9/11 Truthers) among the war protesters. But, by and large, the protests had an overarching focus: opposition to the war. In comparison, this "Tea Party" movement [I guess that's what it's called.] doesn't have an overarching focus (see some of the previous questions I listed); it's simply an aggregation of angry people.
Additionally, the war protestors never advocated anything as radical as secession (i.e., "states rights") or armed revolt, which are themes that run though the "Tea Party." The "Tea Party" is also more amenable to racist and xenophobic ideologies (see some of the signage & videos from their rallies/gatherings).
I think that many Americans, even if they did not initially agree with the war protesters, thought they were exercising a fundamental right to protest, and were voicing a position that was at least potentially embraceable by mainstream America. Contrarily, I think it would be a mistake to assume that the "Tea Party" is simply asserting the same type of potentially embraceable position, at least not at the moment. Why? Because of the strong sentiments that lean toward a dissolution or violent uprising against an America that it does not agree with. In short, they've intimated and, in some cases explicitly declared, that they will not abide by majority rule. So, at its core, there is a literally an anti-American theme coursing through the movement. I simply don't believe that most Americans will abide a (rudderless) movement that even flirts with the dissolution of our nation, or violent uprising.
It's not my intention to dismiss the "Tea Party." I do think it's interesting, and insightful about the current state of our nation. But, I do think we should be wary of equating it with more focused and potentially more palatable, and thereby influential, movements.
The "Tea Party" may evolve into such a movement, but it's not there yet. And I don't really know that it will ever get there, since it so heavily relies on the notion of dissolving the nation or violent uprising, if necessary.
Jeff said...
...this enormous protest.
Indeed, the actual count was 61,203. Whoa!
And the scary part, half of them were most likely FOX and CNN, who in the neverending quest to become FOX II, have been following these teabaggers around all week. It's funny, when millions of Americans protested the potential loss of American blood and treasure in 2003, which contributed the mammoth deficit Obama inherited from Bush and the Republican congress, CNN barely reported on these protests, nevermind following their every move.
BTW, Jeff, here's a credibility test:
Which would you desribe as ENORMOUS? The deficit and financial and economic crisis, including two deficit inflating wars, Obama inherited from Bush-Cheney and the conservative party in the United States, or yesterday's official teabagger turnout estimate?
Verity025,
Are you seriously suggesting that the protest yesterday was some sort of militia style call for an uprising? That is absurd. There is a fringe there, just as there was against Bush and the war (Van Jones types). But most of these people are simply concerned about taxes, government growth and control, and debt. Period. Those are serious issues, on which the Dem have no answer except the true but useless response that "Bush did it to".
To think that in OD'ing on college football yesterday, I missed such a story.
But this is incredible, too:
Notre Dame at Michigan: 110,000.
USC at Ohio State: 106,000.
Nah, can't be true: Michigan beat OSU? I demand a recount!
I think losing a couple of blue dogs in 2010 could be a tonic for the Democrats, not a hit. I'm all in favor of a bit more electoral clarity. There are obviously no legislative benefits to having guys like Ben Nelson and Max Baucus around. Expanding the tent is meaningless tortuous and expensive; good ideas will win, not coerced legislators.
@Andrew: There's a further benefit to such losses, if they are modest (i.e., Dems stay in the majority). We don't end up with a Baucus chairing a critical committee.
@ Jeff:
Have you been following the "Tea Party"? Are you seriously asking me that question?
Yes. I'm saying that a sense that "the people" would rise up, violently, against their government, if necessary, is a theme of the "Tea Party."
Have you not seen the people proudly boasting about doing just that if necessary? Have you not seen people talking about the "next Civil War"? Have you not seen Governor Perry flirting with people advocating secession? Have you not seen the "Don't Tread on Me" flags? The people proudly boasting, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."... People talking about the "silent majority rising up"... People literally advocating militias to "protect" them from the government...
To suggest that this is simply a protest about an amorphous notion of "big government" and "taxes" (which have been CUT for most of the protestors) and debt -- Bush annihilated a budget surplus and left behind a trillion dollar debt. [His policies have contributed ~33% of or current debt. Obama's policies? About 7% (stimulus; and some of that will be recouped). Even Obama's supposedly "debt busting" budget, which includes efforts to extend healthcare and cap & trade legislation, only totals about 3%.
So, do you really think this simply about the deficit and government?
If so, I have a bridge to sell you.
verity o25 said: The "Tea Party" may evolve into such a movement, but it's not there yet. And I don't really know that it will ever get there, since it so heavily relies on the notion of dissolving the nation or violent uprising, if necessary.
If a national protest, that has been planned for more than six months and marketed consistently by a one-and-a-half national news networks, can't draw at least 100,000, then there's no way that it's going to "evolve into a movement".
Truth is, not near enough citizens are willing to support such nonsense with their time or money. What we saw yesterday is as much as they've got.
Nate is too nice. Malkin is a liar or at least willfully blind. She is probably irked about her 2M estimate being off by 1.9M, but in typical fashion, instead of acknowledging her error, she quickly manufactures a new (and false) issue that gives her an excuse to change the topic and attack her opponents. Her new headline is "Yes, the picture is real, nutroots". Her erroneous headline about the size of the protest has almost become invisible.
Mock the protesters at your peril: business as usual suddenly isn't so good for Democrats these days, and the sentiments of the 70,000 people who marched on Washington surely mirror those of millions more sitting at home. They were done a disservice by being represented by a liar like Kibbe.
If we are to take them seriously, then given the apparent depth of their inchoate rage, their overt racism, and their explicitly anti-democratic rhetoric, to what degree should we be genuinely concerned about this country lurching dramatically towards the fascistic right on the back of this nascent movement?
@ rc:
Great point.
@Rudy:
Well, the point is that it was a lot of people, and ones who have a laundry list of frustrations that rarely get airing on network coverage. Now, maybe there will be more media recognition of the loyal opposition's complaints.
"Loyal opposition," my pink hairy asset. These people are claiming that the elected president is illegitimate, a Nazi, a fascist, a socialist, in bed with terrorists...that's not loyal.
And by the BTW, these people's frustrations are getting plenty of network coverage.
You'd benefit by joining the fact-based community.
I love these controversies. Let's argue over the size of the crowd. What you Dems don't need is people focused on crowds of people coming out to oppose Obama.
It's like the "You lie!" controversy -- it highlights the extent of opposition to Obama and points how his support is diminishing.
petekent01 (on twitter)
From the article saying the Atlanta crowd estimate was impossible, it states that each person takes up 4 square feet. That seems a lot. I attempted to measure myself and came up with less 2 square feet[18in by 10in, 1.25 sq ft]. Now I freely admit I am below average, but can the average person really take up 3x as much room as me? If I took up 4 sq ft it would be touch and go if I could touch my hands at my belly!
As an aside, isn't it remarkable how no one but Fox News is covering the Acorn scandal of providing tax advice to prostitutes, pimps and child abusers???
The mainstream media is so much a shill for the Democrat Party that they have lost all credibility.
The MSM (NYTs, WaPo, NBC, etc) may be the first casualty of the coming electoral cycle. You can see it in their circulation numbers and ratings. Only Fox is thriving as more and more turn to them for the more truthful and complete view of the news, even if their editorial focus tilts conservative.
petekent01 (on twitter)
rc - Maybe, but the seed is there. If, say, unemployment drifts up to 12% and rising oil prices spur another recession by 2012, it's not inconceivable that the ranks of these protesters could grow dramatically, and maybe enough to sweep Palin or someone with similarly fringe-populist views into office. (Even in 2008, Palin's clearly xenophobic rhetoric against the Obama campaign was enough to earn the support of maybe 40% of the country, and didn't generally de-legitimize her in the eyes of the media; so, with a potentially much more economically and socially fraed national environment in 2012, it's not clear how far the the rhetorical bound on mainstream discourse on the right might be pushed.)
yet 5 days after the first tea bag protests there were the 4 20 smoke ins. this drew a far greater number of people and were virtually ignored.
why is that
@ PeteKent:
By "covering," do you mean "blabbering about incessantly until you've talked the issue to death"?
I'm not one to defend MSM, but CNN, ABC News, MSNBC, WaPo, NYT, etc., all had articles/pieces on the ACORN story. They just didn't feel the need to discuss it ad nauseum like Fox.
@verity025
_________________________________
"I'm saying that a sense that "the people" would rise up, violently, against their government, if necessary, is a theme of the "Tea Party."
"Have you not seen the people proudly boasting about doing just that if necessary? Have you not seen people talking about the "next Civil War"? Have you not seen Governor Perry flirting with people advocating secession? Have you not seen the "Don't Tread on Me" flags? The people proudly boasting, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."... People talking about the "silent majority rising up"... People literally advocating militias to "protect" them from the government..."
__________________________________
I spent some time on Sarah Palin's facebook and some "mainstream" conservative blog discussions, I must say that the themes you mentioned are exactly those that were repeated by many posters.
Basically, they are threatening to be violent NEXT TIME. They say they are PRAYING TO GOD for liberals and Obama and Plesoi to mend their ways, FOR NOW, next time they would bring GUNS.
Wonder where they are getting this insane motivation from. Glenn Beck? Maybe it's the right wing media echo machine that is pumping up the wackos.
I think the real story on the current protests is that they are so unfocussed. Apparently yesterday was supposed to be a healthcare protest. Not many of the signs I have heard about and seen focussed on the healthcare issue. (Never mind the crazy nature of the signs, ie you can't be a commie and a Czar at the same time!)
I think that it is still distilling a message and right now is still just a 'yah boo sucks we lost' protest.
Interestingly I wonder if there is any similarity between these protestors and the Ron Paul movement. In all the fuss about Palin bringing social conservatives back to the party, I wonder if it wasn't actually these types of libertarians that it brought back to the party? Has anyone made a study of that?
"a small state, low tax, anti-debt message"
Are you serious? The only one of those three objectives that conservatives have managed to carry out in the past thirty years has been "low tax." Conservatives are NOT anti-debt, and they are NOT small state, and they haven't been since 1980. The fact that conservatives are still able to peddle this snake oil after so many years is a testament to the short memories of the average American voter.
@chachy
There is a HUGE difference between getting someone to go to the polls and vote against the potentially first African-American president, and getting them to do anything else that would evidence an actual "movement". Organizing is harder than it looks (did it for twenty years). And even with plenty of resources (my folks could never afford to go out and rent colonial costumes), these guys just didn't cut it.
Should somebody keep an eye on them? Sure. I contribute to the Southern Poverty Law Center to do that for me.
Donate here: https://secure.splcenter.org/donate/online/online.jsp
I was there and I can say it wasn't 2 million. That was based on a misattribution that got spread around and repeated.
But 70,000 is no more accurate than 2 million. The DC Fire Department doesn't do crowd estimates, so it's irresponsible to treat that as fact just because some random fire official made an uninformed guess and the news all ran with it.
I'd eat my hat if the figure wasn't a healthy six figures.
Brian Garst said
'But 70,000 is no more accurate than 2 million. The DC Fire Department doesn't do crowd estimates, so it's irresponsible to treat that as fact just because some random fire official made an uninformed guess and the news all ran with it.
I'd eat my hat if the figure wasn't a healthy six figures'
-------------------------------------
Well the DC fire department does have some experience of dealing with large crowds, so its not entirely unqualified to make an estimate of the crowd.
Certainly just as qualified as some poster to a website.
@markymark
What?!? You've never heard of...
Brian Garst, Official Crowd Estimator
Hotels were charging treble their rates? I suppose this means they weren't charging their bass rates.
Okay, Nate. I won't mock them. But what am I supposed to do with them? Fear them? Placate them? Change my views on health care reform? Demand Obama's birth cert?
Matt Yglesias attended the event and the business as usual 'racism friendly' environment. He met folks who love the confederacy, think guns are great and diversity is stupid. They also believe that abortion is murder and/or Barack Obama is in league with terrorists. But, and this is probably the lede, there was very little sense that anyone had a specific complaint with Obama's health care proposals.
Couple more points. Suggesting that there are two sane individuals in a room full of crazy people doesn't mean the room isn't full of crazy people. And it's not red and blue anymore. It's red and gray.
But heaven forbid we should mock the fellow whose diversity tee shirt celebrates all the guns he can buy. Or the folks at home who wish they had a tee shirt just like it.
Nate:
Here is a time lapsed traffic video of the Tea Party assembly and march on the Capitol.
Here are a collection of photos of the crowd on the march and then filling the entire area between the Mall where the speeches were given and the Washington Monument.
Obviously, the comparison with the audience of a Redskins football game is absurd. Unless the Redskins' stadium is miles long, there is no way in hell it would fit this crowd of hundreds of thousands.
Who are you going to believe? TPM or your own lying eyes?
Note also that this is easily the largest single demonstration by conservatives in American history. During the American Revolution, we were lucky to assemble a few thousand patriots to protest intrusive government at any one time.
Conservatives do not have a class of professional protestors as does the left. We have jobs, families and lives, and normally do our protesting by showing up at the ballot box. When tiny cadres of conservatives protest, they generally represent far far larger groups of voters. What then does it mean when hundreds of thousands of conservatives show up to protest?
You are a very talented political analyst who is not afraid to buck the conventional wisdom of your fellow liberals. You might want to jump all over this movement from the outset because it is not going away.
I have been involved in libertarian and conservative politics for years and have never seen anything remotely like the Tea Party movement - even when I campaigned for Reagan in 1980 and for the local GOP in 1994. Something major is afoot.
"Couple more points. Suggesting that there are two sane individuals in a room full of crazy people doesn't mean the room isn't full of crazy people. And it's not red and blue anymore. It's red and gray."
And yet here you are suggesting that a room full of people are crazy because two are.
Does this mean all anti-war protesters are nuts because Code Pink is there?
Hypocrisy much?
USA Today reports that the Park Service is going to do a crowd estimate of yesterday's Tea Party protest to determine if it broke the record of the 1.2 million people for the swearing-in of President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1965.
The Park Service estimates that a tightly packed crowd of 1.5 million can fit the area between the Mall and the Washington Monument. The linked photos show the area is filled with Tea Party protestors, but not the density.
Obviously Nate was perusing the comment section yesterday. The topic of penis...er...crowd size exaggeration came up in the thread back and forth. I flogged several trolls on the subject myself. But I think the point was that there were 70,000 people who converged upon DC in opposition to health care reform. Or were they really there for that?
These are the losers of the 2008 campaign hiding behind a token issue. They fear a black man might actually fix what is wrong with the health insurance cartel.
Does it mean that their voices aren't relevant? No. Not any more than our voices in 2003 when we came out in droves against the war in Iraq. But, as I've said previously, decibel level of the protest does not a representative democracy make. Numbers do. Those numbers spoke in 2008. You can throw as loud a tantrum as you want. Maybe that will get you a few independents who have doubts. Fine. It doesn't make it right.
Bart...you are such a stupid f#%k. All the wishful thinking in the world will not change anything.
A picture at your own link shows no one on the Mall, Bart.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6Y5ctiQjR7g/SqvjYzX0HiI/AAAAAAAAK0g/RM3-GKu1knw/s1600-h/_Device+Memory_home_user_pictures_IMG00035-20090912-1331.jpg
If you look at where the two buses are (from CNN if I recall), that is the very end of the mall. Beyond that is empty grass. No one is on the mall except for the people walking along the side paths. At the far end of the mall is a different event (a step competition). If that were not there it would be even more obvious that the mall was unoccupied.
I appreciate the enthusiasm (and think that old USA Today chart is good to debunk the 60k figure) as the area marked as 240k was almost entirely filled, but 2 million is simply not a realistic number.
Bart, I'm done pretending that the GOP and conservative movement haven't devolved into the mess of paranoid black helicopter ravers, shithouse lawyers, birthers, meth mouths, and proud confederate tee shirt wearers that it is. Joe the Heckler wasn't an outlier. He's a hero to these folks, and a perfect representation of where the movement is today. One fellow who attended the Beck-a-Palooza put it like this:
"However, it was an angry group with a real sense of absolute entitlement. Something not focused on by many. This sense of entitlement that they deserve to be the dominant deciders and that it's being taken away."
Remember the porcine lackwits who left McCain rallies last year quite certain that shouting the soon-to-be president's name -- 'Barack Hussein Obama !'-- was not only a height of wit but a political statement? I'd suggest it's time we stopped pretending that the GOP hasn't passed a relevant threshold when it comes to crazy people -- crazy people whom, in some cases, are using a larger debate (health care) to camouflage their refusal to accept that a black man currently resides in the White House (racism).
It ain't hypocrisy to point it out. But it's a fairly pallid delusion that pretends it's otherwise. Also self-serving, I suppose. So good luck with that.
Rightwing hilarity, courtesy of Slate.com.. not quite as good as 'Get a brain morans', but right up there.
"Nearby, a group of well-dressed men and women, calling themselves Billionaires for Wealthcare, who waved signs—"Less Health, More Wealth," "Let Them Eat Advil," "Do No Harm … To Our Bottom Line"—and sang songs about how health care reform would destroy their posh lives. Not everyone realized it was a joke. One protester sang along with the song, sung to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic," which had the chorus, "Let's save the status quo." Another protester was baffled. "They spin everything you say!" she said to me. "You think they're on your side, but then they're not!" One volunteer for Tea Party Patriots was convinced they were on his side. "They're for us," he told me. "They're wealthy, so they're thanking everybody for coming."
Bart, that USA Today article you linked to is from January...the story is about Obama's inaguration.
Nice going. In your desperation to "prove" that this isn't a fringe movement, you're making unforced errors, and undermining your position.
Reality is hard, eh?
"except the triumphant liberals can't get anything done"
I know! If only the liberals would just ram a bill through Congress by whatever means necessary. Although I suspect you'd be among the first to scream about that, wouldn't you?
Thanks for passing along those totally unbiased sources for crowd size, Mr. DePalma. Who's next? The Divine Miss M&M?
"One fellow who attended the Beck-a-Palooza put it like this:"
And clearly his account wouldn't be self-serving!
What was remarkable about the people was how nice everyone was. Angry at big government? Absolutely. But to describe them as an angry mob so that you can dismiss their relevance and sleep at night is bullshit. But it's also your problem when you get a big surprise in 2010.
I don't know why I bother, it's clear people on both the left and the right will just believe whatever the hell they want to believe. There wasn't 2 million, they weren't mostly crazy (or even significantly so), and they weren't angry except at big government. They were more than 60k, they were energetic and jovial and pleasant to the police who were there (no riots, no confrontations, no violence...all of which would be unheard of at a leftwing rally).
But whatever, you go on believing that you can shape reality simply by wanting it to be a certain way.
Bart, you just linked to an article about the Obama Inauguration and claimed it was about the 9/12 protest. I mean... just... wow.
Speaking of the two sane people in the room, here's conservative Rod Dreher:
"Well," a Democrat chortled to me the other day, "I guess you're going to have to be a liberal now." Well, no. Aside from his personal decency, it's hard to find anything to say for Obama. He is a statist liberal who is continuing and expanding the centralizing policies of his predecessor, whose expansion of the national security state and uncritical embrace of Wall Street finds no real enemy in Obama (much to the surprise of some on the left). Unlike the president, I'm a social and religious conservative. Unlike this or the last president, I believe in fiscal responsibility, limits, localism and foreign-policy realism.
I also distrust the mob and its passions – which is why the degraded state of conservative politics today is so demoralizing.
Despite what Sam Tanenhaus says, conservatism is not dead. Rather, it's undead. The conservative movement is herking and jerking like a zombie, dedicated to little more than frenetic gestures execrating Obama, and to regaining power. To what end? Given that they're birthing a conservative party whose instincts are dictated by loudmouths, reactionaries and crackpots, and overseen by cynics, it's dispiriting to contemplate."
Dictated by loudmouths, reactionaries, and crackpots. Overseen by cynics. Sounds about right.
Brian:
I linked to Radio Patriot. Go half way down for the photos of the crowd between the Mall and the Washington Monument.
Based upon some of the close up photos at that link and the TV news coverage from the Mall yesterday, the crowd is not at maximum density. We are probably dealing with a crowd between 750,000 and 1 million. That is a wild ass guess, not a statement of fact.
The 2 million figure was a mistake and everyone backed off from it as soon as ABC disavowed it. Compare that to Mr. Obama's record correcting his misstatements concerning Obamacare.
As a member of the Tea Party movement, I want an accurate and credible number we can use to recruit more folks to the cause. Lies like calling Farakhan's 600,000 crowd a "Million Man March" only gives the Dems ammunition to discredit us and distract from our message.
Honestly, the crowd is far, far larger than I expected. I thought a couple hundred thousand would be an unbelievable showing of folks traveling to DC on their own dime. Conservatives simply do not do demonstrations. However, I suspect that all the coverage of the townhall protests got folks fired up.
We are probably dealing with a crowd between 750,000 and 1 million. That is a wild ass guess, not a statement of fact.
It's a wild ass guess alright. Fourtunately, we do not have to rely on your wild ass guesses. The DC Fire Department estimated crowd size at 60,000. The credible media outlets put the number anywhere from 50-70k.
Your wild ass guess is off by a factor of ten. Try harder, you are failing.
No more self-serving than you own, Brian. I'd suggest reading the Dreher quote I posted. You're getting used by folks who care very little about big government -- you *were* up and awake during the last eight years, yes? -- and very much about gaining and retaining power.
On the other hand, it's nice to hear that the cannon fodder were energetic and jovial.
As for 2010, angry people are usually over-sampled in off-year elections, so I'd expect GOP gains. That would not come as a surprise. But the American electorate as a whole tends to walk away from ravers and shouters (and yes, straight up racists) -- and that, not to mention a rising demographic tide that will one day relegate the GOP to a moribund regional political party based in the South -- does not bode well for you and yours in 2012, and beyond.
PeteCan't said,
As an aside, isn't it remarkable how no one but Fox News is covering the Acorn scandal of providing tax advice to prostitutes, pimps and child abusers???
Really? That's the best you could do? ACORN? Appropriate, I suppose, as you really are NUTS.
No it's not remarkable that anyone but Fixed Noise is still covering ACORN. BECAUSE IT'S A NON-ISSUE.
I mean, have you heard the rumour that Elton John is gay? OMG!
@Bart:
What are you talking about? 100,000? The crowd was 70k...you're posting links to Obama's inauguration to prove how many people came to the rally on 9/12? What are you even babbling about? I normally try to find some sense of credibility in your statements to debate, but I can't find a drop here.
BDP said
'USA Today reports that the Park Service is going to do a crowd estimate of yesterday's Tea Party protest to determine if it broke the record of the 1.2 million people for the swearing-in of President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1965.
The Park Service estimates that a tightly packed crowd of 1.5 million can fit the area between the Mall and the Washington Monument. The linked photos show the area is filled with Tea Party protestors, but not the density.'
-----------------------------------
Except of course the link BDP posts to is talking about Obama's inauguration!
Quoting from it
'Reversing a 13-year-old policy, the National Park Service said Monday that it will offer an official crowd estimate for today's presidential inauguration to determine whether the event will set a record.'
---------------------------------
I reckon judging by the photos BDP posted from the Patriot thing, you are looking at numbers in the region of 60,000, bearing in mind that the wide angle shots were you can only see people cover a couple of blocks maybe. Certainly not a lot more than that.
Let me get this straight. The million mom march (against hand guns), immigration reform marches, and anti-war marches, all had larger crowds, but notice none of them "accomplished" their objective? Marches especially "novel" ones will still get media attention, but they just don't effectively drive political policy anymore. Remember when union strikes used to be big news? Now they rarely make the news, the last effective Union strike was the West Coast longshoreman strike.
Conservatives marching is novel (the old man bites dog media driver) but once the novelty wears off it will be as effective as liberals marching.
Now it does signify that conservatives are getting energized, but similar marches by left leaning groups usually take about 2-3 cycles before they really show up at the ballot box. I do expect conservative gains in 2010 (better organization on the right) but not a retaking of congress, it would take a larger backlash than in 1994 to do this (Democrats have a larger congressional margin). Also there is ZERO upside to the Democrats not putting out a left of center healthcare bill. In 1994 Democrats were not rewarded for voting Clinton's bill down they were pummeled, and it was the blue dog/centrist who paid the price. Many congressional Democrats may be cowards but they're not stupid.
There will be a signed bill by Thanksgiving.
I'd still like to know what the reaction of that crowd would be if they were told medicare is dissolving tomorrow because the government recognizes their furor over government intervention in their lives.
"an event at which there really were almost 2 million people present"
Or not, Satellites, balloons, and math used to count inauguration crowd: "anywhere between 800,000 and 3 million"
Bart,
"Note also that this is easily the largest single demonstration by conservatives in American history. During the American Revolution, we were lucky to assemble a few thousand patriots to protest intrusive government at any one time."
What? Please don't pretend that those liberals were conservatives, its an insult to their memory. They sought to create a new state, free of the royalist/religious trappings of their right-wing, monarchist governments. They believed in rights that could be asserted against the state.
Since when do conservatives believe in such things? I think the silence over the preceding 8 years show that conservatives only dislike intrusive government when it might cost some money, and obviously not always then. Where were these geniuses during the unprecedented expansion of federal police power? Why were they silent when government tried to intrude into phone calls, library books, emails, bank accounts, and collect information about the "Raging Grannies" terrorist organization?
For that matter, how can you pretend conservatives dislike intrusive government when conservative justices supported the constitutionality of sodomy laws, laws about what sorts of pornography you might have, stiffening drug laws, teaching religion in schools, regulating the internal workings of female bodies, letting the police bust down your door without so much as a knock, etc. etc. etc.
Conservatives LOVE intrusive government. I still can't quite put my finger on why health care reform or whatever people were protesting riles you up so much. You clearly have no problem ceding decisions over morality, religion, sexuality, and who to imprison or invade to the government, but the moment someone wants to make sure that there is meaningful reform to health care, you want to keep the government "out" (not sure when they were coming in). Why the distinction?
I think its hilarious that these craven conservatives think that health care reform is some tyrannical exercise when they tripped over themselves to remove every barrier to the exertion of military and coercive power by the government they could.
They refuse to give the government a stethoscope because they fear it will turn into a gun, when they've been giving assault rifles and tanks to the government for as long as they have been in existence.
A few thoughts of my own:
1) 60,000 - 70,000 is respectible, but it's still small potatoes. This is still a fringe gathering. These are the people that no Democrat or Moderate person will ever get on their side. Pay attention to them, but only because they are more likely to be the thorns in the side of America. Pay attention because they have congressmen who think the same way.
2) Protests with signs that say "Bury Obamacare with Kennedy" lying in a pile of horse droppings do not get favorable press. Deservedly so. You have to police your own at these things, or the bad images will take the forefront. The left had this problem, and so now does the right. Welcome to minority status.
3) Lies do matter, as do numbers. Those who claim otherwise do so at their peril.
4) PK - you're cute.
There is a huge socio-economic issue the argument on conservative marching is missing. Historically marching is popular amongst two groups in America, young educated college age types (think Vietnam era), and less educated working class types (Unions in their heyday, blacks on Civil right). As the GOP loses it grip on suburban, professionals, and upper middle class people (some of the lease likely to march groups) and becomes more a white working class party, they start to be made up of the "marching demographic". As suburbia becomes more blue, the Democrats base will march less (Markos of Daily Kos isn't a fan of marches).
During the 1970's and 1980's there were conservative marches (Boston anti-Busing comes to mind), but most of the energy of the right was behind the scenes organizing with things like the Heritage and Cato Foundation and Federalist. As the party swap demographics (the GOP and Dems have traded the North East and West Coast for the South) you'll see swapping of their behavior.
Southern Democrats used to be economic Demagogues (Huey Long) now they are cultural ones. Rockefeller Republicans used to be seen as aloof now it's New England liberals. Let the great sorting out continue, stay tuned...
"He did the equivalent of telling people that his penis is 53 inches long." - ROTFLOL Thanks Nate you made my day.
Yes when I heard the astronomical figures of 1.5 million people and 2million I had to wonder. Living in DC I'm kind of used to seeing Marches and Rallies. When I heard those incredible numbers yesterday I turned on the TV and well frankly the crowd was about three times smaller than a Gay Rights March on DC or the anti-Iraq War Protests. While it was a decent gathering it came nowhere near the Inaugural or the World Bank Protests of earlier in this decade.
The problem with guestimating crowd size [and one of the reasons the Park Police won't do it any more] for a March/Protest on the National Mall is simply because it is the National Mall where you have families or groups who are visiting with no affiliaition to the cause. I remember one time at a Gay Pride Event on the Mall seeing a nice clean-cut All-American couple [you could tell they voted straight GOP all the way. They just had that look] and their 7 year old daughter enjoying the crowd and music until one of the speakers began to talk about gay rights and equality. It took about five minutes for that light bulb to go off over the Mother's head before she scolded her husband and snatched the daughter up as if the ground had gay cooties in it. My point is on the National Mall people wander into protests groups all the time which makes it devilishly hard to get an accurate crowd size number.
Now while this Tea Bag-Glenn Beck Love-a-Thon had a decent size but not very impressive crowd yet all the commentators say they are a force to be respected. Yet Gay Rights and World Bank protests vastly outdrew them and very few people cower to their wishes. Funny I guess if your straight, white, old and angry with no clear focus of your wrath you are taken more seriously.
@Bart DePalma:
Conservatives simply do not do demonstrations.
Oh, I don't know. Here's a photo of a conservative demonstration. You can see many more at this link. Some were pretty well attended. Y'all can be proud of your history.
I thought those crowd pictures looked suspicious. Just one more example of lies and bullshit from the GOP.
I just hope GROG is reading this. He was incensed yesterday that I equated the GOP with dishonesty, and wanted proof.
The only thing that should matter to Nate is whether you can impute voter swings from the number of people showing up to these protests. We know that anti-war protesters before and during the early parts of the Iraq war had little or no effect, since at most they affected the Democratic parties hard-left base and did not show changes in voting patterns in the elections that immediately followed; later, war weariness and Katrina took its toll, but I am talking about the early days.
I think the same is true here. You do not see independents or even moderate Republicans at these protests, only the loyal hard-right base.
The question is whether you (Nate) can impute mood of moderate Republicans (they still exist, they are just in hiding) or independents or conservative Democrats? I am not sure you can, but perhaps there is "doubt" as the transferred impact - doubt about spending by the Fed government. This is what the Blue Dogs worry about most - doubt can be enough to cause people to vote for the "safer" alternative, which just means someone who tries to stop change.
This is what Bush/Rove knew only too well - you have to counter doubt with fear or other non-moderating force. Obama is only willing to deal with doubt with facts and reality, and that has never worked well. Doubt is like a cancer, it keeps coming back when you only treat it with logical reasoning (except with the more intellectual among us, but that is not nearly enough of the voters).
You see that with these rallies: the people at these are full of doubt and the doubt has driven them to an often hysterical panic. If they represent the extreme end of a continuum, how many logically must be just to the left of that end?
More news from the front—this sign thanking Fox Noise for keeping us INFROMED.
cbdc wrote:
"As a long time downtown DC resident, I'd guess it was smaller than 60,000. Based solely on inconvenience to me, it felt more like a medium sized breast cancer walk than a protest. I saw more people with patriotic clothes on and public transportation was (ironically?) a bit more crowded than usual. But it was nothing that caused plans to be changed."
---
I too was struck by the irony of these anti-tax tea baggers all using public transportation! How do these nimrod think the Metro came into being...by some Mass Transit Fairy waving her wand? I really think if these people were serious about their hatred of taxes they would forgo all the benefits that our taxes bring about. That would include being defended by our armed services, protected from terrorist attacks by our CIA and FBI, driving on our nations highway, using cell phones and/or GPS that utilize satellites put into orbit by NASA, relying on weather forcasts that use goverment weather satalites,no being rescued during a natural disaster, no police or fire fighting protection, taking drugs developed by the NIH even when it means taking those drugs would save their lifes, et al. If all these wahoos think that government is the problem then they should do completely without the benefits of our government. Put your money where your mouth is - of course since money is a government issued and backed item these people would have to do without that as well. Good luck! No one likes paying taxes and everyone thinks their too high. But guess what I think my rent is too high. Same thing goes with my phone bill and cable bills. I can go with all three but if I do I need to realize that my way of living would be drastically changed.
Just one other thing on comparing the photos of marchers to BDPs USA Today column. Its something any of you who will have turned up to a standing event early will have experienced. I gather most concerts/gigs in the US are seated events nowadays, but this is most evident at gigs from my experience. Crowds don't fill up from the front. They don't all squidge in at the front. They start off fitting into a reasonable space that will give them polite social space but still as close to the action as they want to get. Its only when the mass of the crowd arrive that things get very crowded. So saying 'judging by the USA today diagram there must be [insert large number here] is not especially acuurate. People tend to take up as much of the available space as possible.
Let me add one more point. When the left went from civil rights and woman rights, to black liberation and feminist liberation, many middle age professional suburbanites stopped identify with the left and Democrats. As marches become more militant there is always a danger of this. As tea baggers continue to hoist the equivalent of burning bras into the media spot light they run a similar danger. Imagery matters, and the media is quick to stereotype protester. Most of the left didn't burn bras and few if any actually spit at soldiers, but 30 years latter people still castigate them for this. That's why the pro-immigration ralliers so quickly started flying American flags (the 1st few days there were a lot of foreign ones). If the tea baggers keep flying Obama as Hitler/Joker/Arab/Monkeys they will tarnish their image for a generation. Regardless of their message middle age middle class Americans won't want to be associated with that sort of imagery. You'll get a generation of Republicans who will have to perform "sista soldier moments" on national TV much like Democrats in the 90's had to, to live down the 70's.
MLK leading a movement yes, Strokely Carmichael no. Glenn Beck leading a movement no, a new face is needed before I start quaking from the tea baggers.
BTW
Man I wish commentators would get back to analysis on this site, and not hurling talking points.
Harleypeyton wrote:
"Okay, Nate. I won't mock them. But what am I supposed to do with them? Fear them? Placate them? Change my views on health care reform? Demand Obama's birth cert?"
I'm with Mr. Peyton on this.
Nate, they were angry during the Democratic primary, they were angry at the nomination, and they were angry all through the campaign. And they are mostly angry about things that Obama hasn't even done yet, but that they "know" he will do.
And that is the bottom line. Unless Obama steps down and appoints Glenn Beck as dictator, they will continue to be angry.
What appears to be lost in your analysis, Nate, is that the GOP has created a monster that they are rapidly losing control of. There appears to be no "off" switch for the anger, and going back to an 18th century model of government is simply not practical. The Republican Party cannot give these people what they want, whatever nebulous and broad "thing" that may be. They can lie to them, certainly, and give lip service to principles while essentially returning to the Bush Administration model. I think that it is the Republican Party who should be cautious in light of these numbers, because these people can push the Party far enough to the Right to make Democratic candidates viable who otherwise would not have been.
Anger is not a policy statement.
wow freedom certainly works for some... i looked up freedomworks form 990 for 2007 on guidestar.org and kibbe got $169,000 plus expenses for 23 hours a week and armey got paid $320,000.. the big donors were not listed on the return. Maybee somebody will find out who are the big billionaire donors to this 501 c 3
Pragmatus said:
I just hope GROG is reading this. He was incensed yesterday that I equated the GOP with dishonesty, and wanted proof.
That statement right there is a lie. I never "wanted proof". In fact I said:
Are there "lies and bullshit" from the right? Of course. Are there "lies and bullshit" from the left? Of course.
Try to deal with facts, Prag.
Freedomworks... what a joke. How can a site called that not even mention any personal liberty? It's all tax stuff. It's quite telling what the right considers freedom to include, and its got 0 to do with individualism.
Nate, I hope you know your April 15 count was a vast underestimate. You stopped counting far too soon. The official police counts came in days later, so your number for the attendance at my city's event (San Antonio) was off by 400%. I assume this applies to other cites with large events also. Plus, as you admit, you didn't even include many of the events.
This hurts your credibility.
Richard--the freedom to keep more of what you've earned? The freedom to spend your resources as you see fit? The more of your resources the government takes from you, the less freedom you have.
Richard said...
Bart: "Note also that this is easily the largest single demonstration by conservatives in American history. During the American Revolution, we were lucky to assemble a few thousand patriots to protest intrusive government at any one time."
What? Please don't pretend that those liberals were conservatives, its an insult to their memory
The classical liberals of the American Revolution believed in individual liberty through limited government. They ranged from those who believed in a sharply limited federal government (Federalists) to those who believed in nearly no federal government (Anti-Federalists). Even the most expansive Federalists of the day would be appalled by the New Deal, the Great Society and Obama's overt socialism. Our Forefathers fought an armed Revolution over far, far less.
You are correct that many of today's conservatives favor more expansive government than did the American Revolutionaries. You have to go Libertarian to approximate the ideals for which the Revolution was fought.
Matt said...
@Bart DePalma: Conservatives simply do not do demonstrations.
Oh, I don't know. Here's a photo of a conservative demonstration. You can see many more at this link. Some were pretty well attended. Y'all can be proud of your history.
Brush up on your history.
Lincoln and the GOP freed the slaves, enacted the 13-15 Amendments and imposed Reconstruction on the Southern Dems. Every member of the Klan was a Dem, the Dems created Jim Crow, and nearly every person who believes in today's government imposed racial preferences is a Dem.
Todd Dugdale said...
What appears to be lost in your analysis, Nate, is that the GOP has created a monster that they are rapidly losing control of.
The GOP had nothing to do with creating the Tea Party movement. Rather, they are trying to figure out how to get these folks to vote GOP when many did not in 2006 and 2008.
There appears to be no "off" switch for the anger, and going back to an 18th century model of government is simply not practical.
That is debatable. However, all we are demanding now is to stop the current expansion of government into our lives and the insane spending and borrowing by both parties. That is more than doable. We did it after the last conservative revolt between 1995 and 2000.
"Malkin herself did not lie; she merely repeated a lie."
What? Merely?
Your logic is illogical: Repeating a lie is completely, 100% lying.
And, is Spreading Lies worse than Lying?
:)
Bonncaruso said...
US population: 304,000,000
Tea Party 12.09.2009: lets be generous and say, just for shits and grins, 100,000
that makes 0.000328% of the US population.
That's a miniscule "TEA PARTY" in a HUGE melting top.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's be more than generous and go w/60 million voted for palin/McCain
but, but, but we'll use the actual astro turf figure of 61,203.
that makes 0.00102% instead of 0.000328% of the US population.
but, but, but these 61k did not vote for Obama, would not vote for Obama if their lives depended on it, soooo it is what it is.
much ado about nothing ...
And again I'll be generous and say only half of the 61k are/were racist which is very, very disappointing considering about half of the 60 million who voted for palin/McCain were racists. OK, were all racist to some degree, but I'm talking about your hardcore, Obama makes me want to spit nails racists!
When you can't get your hardcore racists out of bed to protest Obama it is indeed a sad day for the Rep party! ;)
and BDP: I have far better things to do than lurk here to watch you folks squawk.
Apparently Sat/Sun must be slowww days for you, along w/Mon/Tues/Wed/Thur/Fri.
Bart, get some rest!
take care
Protest/Schmotest = preaching to the choir, nothing more, nothing less as the Rep base continues to dwindle ...
It just occured to me that if yesterday's Tea Bagging protest was a TV show it would have been canceled by now.
Bart,
Intrusiveness is hardly a new thing for conservatives, so lets not pretend like this is some new problem. Conservatism's one consistency throughout history has been resistance to the expansion of liberty, whether it be in the name of the king, God, or just plain unrestrained nationalism.
Also, while you're right that the members of the KKK were probably Democrats (or at least that the Democrats were the party of segregation and Jim Crow) what is also true is that they were undoubtedly CONSERVATIVE. It is the ideology, not the party label, that is important.
Juliesa, while resources are undoubtedly important, I fail to see how a site called Freedomworks should limit itself to discussing those sorts of issues, and ignoring the threat to liberty from government police power, craven conservative justices rubber-stamping everything the government does to individuals (except when it tries to help people, that they strike down real quick), the imposition of morality upon individuals, issues of sexuality, individual choice, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, etc. etc. I mean is that just not considered to be relevant to freedom?
Okay, Nate, it was an impressive size crowd. That is until you take into consideration:
1. Fox News and Glenn Beck have been advertising this event for several months.
2. Millions were spent on this event.
3. Freedomworks bussed thousands of people from across the nation.
For these three reasons, this protest was a massive failure. That this is all they muster from around the nation tells me these people are a small minority.
A half million people marched against the war in Iraq and for immigration reform, and they both barely got blurbs on most cable news networks. If 500K people couldn't change government policy, why are we cowering to 70K crazies?
BDP said
'Matt said...
@Bart DePalma: Conservatives simply do not do demonstrations.
Oh, I don't know. Here's a photo of a conservative demonstration. You can see many more at this link. Some were pretty well attended. Y'all can be proud of your history.
Brush up on your history.
Lincoln and the GOP freed the slaves, enacted the 13-15 Amendments and imposed Reconstruction on the Southern Dems. Every member of the Klan was a Dem, the Dems created Jim Crow, and nearly every person who believes in today's government imposed racial preferences is a Dem.'
--------------------------------
No no BDP, you didn't say anything about 'Republicans don't protest' you said 'conservatives don't protest'. We all know that white Southern Democrats were, at least socially, conservative.
@Bart DePalma, "The classical liberals of the American Revolution believed in individual liberty through limited government."
I think you have to look at them in context of their time and the ideas of what government was and did. For one, most were Statists and so were worrying about Federal government, but were happy with intrusive local government (of which they had more control) as well as taxation (of which they had plenty, just not income tax).
It is also notable that the early American governments were against companies with too much power and certainly too much profit. They were driven by the idea that "morals" and "ethics" (many were not religious) would guide government, companies, and religions. On the other hand, after much debate, they decide not to deal with debtors prisons, and it took until the 1830s to finally eradicate those.
At the time, taxation was more of a hidden tax (tariffs, property/head tax, poll taxes, etc), but they were not really libertarians. They believed in taxing you whether you used the goods or services, and so developed ever more creative ways to get around the Constitution's limits on how they could tax relative to census numbers. They put the clauses into the Constitution because of fears of the States (rightly so) and the variations between very small states and very large ones (leading to Senate, etc).
happycozy
'A half million people marched against the war in Iraq and for immigration reform, and they both barely got blurbs on most cable news networks. If 500K people couldn't change government policy, why are we cowering to 70K crazies?'
-----------------------------------
Here is my theory on this one. The MSM is scared sh*tl*ss of being called out for being tooo liberal. So they cover these sorts of protests far more than they would cover a similar liberal protest in order to seem less liberal.
I think this is evidence that the right wing's tactic of calling out the media as 'left wing' has worked exactly as it was designed to.
Freedom works bussed in folks?
I spoke to the organizer in my area, and she reserved the buses on her own dime.
She was pretty sure she could sell them out, but the folks I spoke to had to arrange the busses without actually knowing whether or not folks would actually show up.
Not sure if 'millions' were spent on the event, I know that it cost 34 bucks to take a bus to it from Philly. So by that measure, you could have gotten a million dollars worth of bus tickets, I suppose.
70k crazies?
Well, give them credit for one thing: they will all be voting.
While that might not impact you specifically, you can be sure all the pols notice.
Bottom line, no fixednoise and there would be no protest. The lemmings/sheep always need a pied piper, eh ie beck ~ oh the humanity!
hmm, if there was a progressive cable news network back in the late '60s how many could they have got out of their beds to protest the Vietnam war ...
ok, no need for astro turf back in the '60s. ie there was a military draft back then.
hmm, if there was a military draft now, talk about a gazillion post Iraq war thread! in 2003/2004.
Hell, there were a half a million at Woodstock and most of them were stoned lol
I digress
Attica, Attica, Attica
BDP said
'The classical liberals of the American Revolution believed in individual liberty through limited government. They ranged from those who believed in a sharply limited federal government (Federalists) to those who believed in nearly no federal government (Anti-Federalists). Even the most expansive Federalists of the day would be appalled by the New Deal, the Great Society and Obama's overt socialism. Our Forefathers fought an armed Revolution over far, far less.'
----------------------------
Being interested in the history of the founding of the US, here is my take on all of this debate.
Firstly the Constitution is the most radical, least conservative document ever written, except possibly for the Declaration of Independence. I mean internationally not just in the US. The two documents together set up a totally new way of governing a nation, and set up the idea that individuals had rights that governments were not empowered to mess with. But it was also written as a document (the constitution I am talking about here) was also written as a document to last. It did not impose any moral or social value on any subsequent generation, save for those rights it enumerated. It even made clear that those rights could be added to by subsequent generations. It was neither a conservative nor liberal constitution, neither a statist or states rights document.
The constitution stayed very clear from policy, policy was for each generation to lay out for itself, thats the point of elections after all. The constitution isn't there to tell the legislators or President want to do, its there to set out how they do it, and the limits of there power.
Yes BDP, we've has this discussion before, if Reps were in charge during the 18th century, America would still be ruled by King George III and his descendants ...
as you say, conservatives as a rule, don't protest, way too messy a process for them, eh
carry on
@laura, "Well, give them credit for one thing: they will all be voting. "
Yes, but they were all going to be voting the same way anyway. That is, politicians only care about voters who change their views sharply, and voters who traditionally do not vote that suddenly will. The real "Silent Majority" is what scares the politicians. The rabble who show up in these protests are well defined in terms of their votes anyway. Let's just say that Republicans can count on these people's votes no matter what they do.
70,000 is a significant number, no matter how you look at it, and particularly if you consider that the political climate around DC ensures a higher liberal base than a conservative one.
Consider that the largest liberal effort in Washington since the inauguration has been around 10,000, and the tea party movement really has been surprisingly effective at mobilizing its members.
verity025 said...
Have you not seen the people proudly boasting about doing just that if necessary? Have you not seen people talking about the "next Civil War"? Have you not seen Governor Perry flirting with people advocating secession? Have you not seen the "Don't Tread on Me" flags? The people proudly boasting, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."... People talking about the "silent majority rising up"... People literally advocating militias to "protect" them from the government...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, and all the racist signs against Obama and the Dems.
again, how is all this hate and bigotry gonna sway the youth vote, which in a couple years will be the reason Gays have full rights as citizens, the minority vote, the moderate independent vote, the well educated vote, the upper class vote.
as I mentioned, these astro turf fools are preaching to their dwindling close-minded, religious right, conservative choir ...
take care
It's sad to see what has happened to the left. The left used to stand for questioning authority and goverment, being the party of dissent, standing up for what they believe in.
But when regular Americans who are fed up with this enormous expansion of government go out and protest, the left gets completely unhinged.
All of the sudden dissenters are "lemmings and sheeps" and "racists" and "ravers and shouters" and "white supremacist teagaggers". And a myriad of excuses and justifications for why people showed up to protest. Blame it on Fox News because no reasonable American would protest Obamacare.
Why then do the polls reflect differently? If the so called "teabaggers" are just a small, meaningless part of the fringe right, why do polls show Americans are against the healthcare bill? Why has Obama's poll numbers plummeted in the past couple months?
The key thing you are missing --
most people can't compare numbers.
Once a number is "big", they all blur.
The fact that one big number is 30
times another just doesn't matter.
When talking budgets, the distinction
between billion and trillion is lost
on too many.
This is why lies about size are so
easy and effective.
@GROG, "Why then do the polls reflect differently? ... why do polls show Americans are against the healthcare bill? "
They don't. The majority of Americans are for a public option. Most want reform. There is no "healthcare bill" to be for or against. But, most want Healthcare fixed.
"Why has Obama's poll numbers plummeted in the past couple months?"
Because many see him as ineffective. His pandering to the right to appease them has disenchanted many that voted for him to bring change. He is viewed by too many on both sides as "weak" as a result. Although his behavior would be great for a Diplomat, many want him to act tougher (which does not mean war, it means not taking "no" for an answer).
Laura,
A bus ride to D.C. for $34? C'mon--you know who paid for the rest of that. It's no hidden secret that Freedomworks bankrolled this march, and you can deny it all you like. But just because Freedomworks says it's a "real" grassroots movement and that 1.5 million people showed up yesterday, doesn't make it true.
I have no doubt that there are millions of people in this nation who share the sentiments of "Glenn Beck's zombie retirees," as Bill Maher calls them. I just don't think their feelings represent the majority of Americans.
Therefore, you can throw your temper tantrums all you want, but if health care reform is passed and this nation starts to see an economic recovery, you will still be a bunch of sore losers in 2012.
GROG said...
But when regular Americans who are fed up with this enormous expansion of government go out and protest, the left gets completely unhinged.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please describe in detail, w/source material how the left is unhinged. If anything, the left is somewhat amused by the astro turf, singing to the choir, protest.
Eagerly awaiting your reply. ;)
70,000?
Nate are you on drugs? Did you not see the 3 hours video of a solid mass of protestors marching towards tha Capitol?
You speak of lies? You sir are a liar if you claim that massive crowd was 70,000.
Seriously Nate, you CANNOT be serious.
P.S., You say that the crowd could not be that large since we didn't destroy the place the the liberals who came to see Obama did?
Good lord man.
BTW, the Fire Department person who estimated the crowd at 70,000 and whom all the MSM is choosing to trust as gospel has not been named by anyone. No official statement has been named. It is just another infamous liberal "unnamed source", which, of course, cannot be verified.
Easily over 1 million people there. Easily.
GROG said
'It's sad to see what has happened to the left. The left used to stand for questioning authority and goverment, being the party of dissent, standing up for what they believe in.
But when regular Americans who are fed up with this enormous expansion of government go out and protest, the left gets completely unhinged.'
-----------------------------------
Okay, look through the over 100 comments that proceed this one, and find a liberal saying that these protestors shouldn't protest, or a comment questioning the patriotism of these protestors or anything of that nature. Thats exactly what liberals have been getting for the last 8 years whenever they questioned President Bush, or protested against him. Liberals are for protest, and I don't think any liberal would suggest this protest should not have been allowed to happen. I don;t think any liberal would question these peoples right to express dissatisfaction. But we would also defend our right to ridicule the opinions that the protestors are expressing.
ABC News ~ Washington, D.C., officials estimate between 60,000 and 75,000 people attended the day-long event
carry on
I live in DC, and had to wade my way through those protesters on the Metro yesterday (by the way, protesters? Learn to use public transit before you come back, please? And stop waving the signs once you get on the train; getting hit on the head by the signs is very uncomfortable) and I have to say, there's absolutely no way there was anything even approaching a million people there yesterday, let alone two. That being said, there's no way there was just 70,000, either. The place was constantly packed. At the very highest there was perhaps a half a million people. It would surprise me not at all to find out that the range was as low as 200,000-250,000 (there was work on the Metro lines, so that might have led to bottlenecks) but unless every last one of the people were repeatedly taking the metro and going in directions that one wouldn't expect them to be going, I doubt there was much less than that.
markymark:
But we would also defend our right to ridicule the opinions that the protestors are expressing.
Calling them sheeps and lemmings and white supremacist racist and the such is not ridiculing their opinions. That's just making stuff up to diminsh the relevance of the protests.
Bill and Ross: even Fox News (who more or less sponsored the protests) says there were only "10s of thousands".
Maybe you are counting every tourist and local in the area as a protester, but no one else is.
@PaulK:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122822/Americans-Sharply-Divided-Healthcare-Reform.aspx
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/47_now_favor_health_care_reform_plan_49_oppose2
"Washington Officials estimate the crowd at 70,000".
Oh yeah? WHICH Washington Officials? WHO specifically? How exactly would they know? Are they an expert is crowd size? Do they even exist?
You see, we know NONE of this because the left doesn't want us to know. They just want us to take the word of this nameless, faceless "unnamed" source.
BS.
@Ross
People have a hard time with crowd numbers, but I'd like to think that the people who have patroled these events (aka the police and fire department) have a better idea of crowds based on experience and planning. I'd say that people are free to believe what they want, except this isn't a belief thing. This is math. There were a set number of people at that rally, and officials are putting it at around 60,000 to 70,000.
@Bill
You're wrong, simply for one reason. There is no liberal MSM, not one that covers Obama's butt like you types tend to believe. There is, however, a MSM that loves controversy. A million protestors showing up at D.C would be a major big deal. Look up the 2009 Inaugural Address to see how big a deal over a million people. If Tea Partiers managed to rustle up that many people, the media would be all over it.
They didn't. The media gave it the attention it deserved. Lies were told, and some believed them. The usual business of this kind of thing. And you'd do your side well to accept reality.
GROG said...
Calling them sheeps and lemmings and white supremacist racist
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many, many are exactly what I say they are, did one see the racist signs and misspelled signs. These were not your highbrow Reps.
Just because one does not like my opinion does not mean "we" are unhinged, especially after Obama crushed the Reps last year!
... and the truth shall set you free!
btw, Brian would tell you it's sheep, not sheeps.
take care
shiloh said:
Many, many are exactly what I say they are, did one see the racist signs and misspelled signs.
One needs to work on his use of commas, run on sentences and question marks.
See here is what pains me about the right. When it really matters about details, like say if a country has WMDs, they don't question a thing, including shaky intelligence cribbed from a university dissertation. But when it doesn't matter, they say stuff like this
'You see, we know NONE of this because the left doesn't want us to know. They just want us to take the word of this nameless, faceless "unnamed" source.'
;)
GROG said...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whereas "we" already knew, debate wise, you were bankrupt. Thanx for confirming it over and over again.
No comment on my truthful political pts., but you did comment on my sentence structure, like your fellow conservative troll Brian.
Impressive! ;)
There's deflection and then there's GROG/Brian who comment re: grammar at a political blog.
PaulK- Trust me, the protesters were much *much* more annoying than the standard issue tourist. It was easy to pick even the ones without signs out of the crowd.
Kinkorknight- If this had been a protest at the Mall, or in another open space, I'd be more inclined to trust the official numbers over my lying eyes, but it wasn't. They marched from Freedom Plaza down Penn to the Capitol. It's significantly harder to pinpoint numbers in that situation, especially since the municipality doesn't officially count participants (they stopped when Farrakhan threatened to sue after they placed the numbers at the million-man march at 400,000)
I know this is off-topic but I feel it needs to be mentioned.
It goes without saying that many of the points the conservatives and the liberals on this site are incorrect (I'm not going to go in-depth about which I believe to be right more often or agree with). There's a problem though: instead of continuing civil disagreement posters on this site resort to mere personal attacks.
Liberals: I know that you can't stand the lies the conservatives make up but that doesn't mean that attacking them personally is going to get more people to agree with you. If you want to win, say they're wrong, prove it and be done. No need for personal attacks
Conservatives: You can cease with your personal retorts to liberals. If you feel that they are making themselves look stupid, just let them, it's much easier that way. You can also quit with the callings of "socialism" and other obviously false claims. If you're right start sourcing facts.
I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this comment but I needed to post it.
Why do you mince words Nate? It's a lie, call it a lie. Oh.
shiloh said:
btw, Brian would tell you it's sheep, not sheeps
I think I was responding to your deflection, shiloh. You are truly clueless.
There were millions of people there because Bill says there were, and not some dumb fire department guy. The fire department is socialist anyway so of course they'd lie the help the fascist muslim usurper. End of discussion.
A couple of apropos observations to go with Nate's analysis. Yesterday my entire family was fortunate enough to volunteer for the President's rally here at the Target Center in Minneapolis.
Point 1. The WH staff had given the Twin Cities such a short notice (Monday for the Saturday event) that the city could not even arrange the porta-potties. I shit you not. We had a crowd of 15,000 waiting for the center to open at 9AM, winding through downtown Minnie with only the likes of Starbucks open with the facilities. People camped out from the night before. That gauges the level of enthusiasm FOR Obama in just one location. (I estimate the crowd size thus: Target Center seats about 18,500. The lower deck was full, the upper deck >3/4 full + we had the floor packed).
Healthcare is a pretty specific issue, with most of MN having HC and acc. to the GOP propaganda "happy with it". Still, on a 4 day notice, 15,000 turn out. Impressive. Esp. in light of Glen Beck 70,000 teabaggers who snowballed into DC NATIONWIDE. Compare this "national" Dick Army movement and contrast. A football game, as Nate points out.
Point 2. Only one protester inside. Michele Bachmann's town hall (attended and protested by yours truly) drew at least two orders more protesters inside.
Point 3. Only about a dozen to dozen and a half protesters on the outside. Incoherent. Irrelevant.
Compare and contrast.
The Right is lost in the deep dark woods of Palin wisdom. They have no real leader because they have rejected all the reasonable voices on the right, the Powels, the Noonans, etc.. All they have is Becks and Limbaughs who drudge out such lunatic fringe that its very composition and incoherence underscore the sheer futility of today's GOP.
They make noise; nothing else. We on the Progressive/Left could get scared/ distracted by the loud firecracker or IGNORE the hollow pops and FORGE ON.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled topics.
~ Latte
Of course, all this being said, it would be interesting to see the specific ridership numbers from yesterday once they're all compiled. That might be a decent way to figure out what the ballpark figure was, if you can filter out the other events that were happening in the area. Since I'm sure most of the protesters used public transit to at least reach the downtown area from wherever they were staying.
GROG…
You fib so much you’re making yourself dizzy. Your quote from today—
“Pragmatus said:
I just hope GROG is reading this. He was incensed yesterday that I equated the GOP with dishonesty, and wanted proof.
That statement right there is a lie. I never ‘wanted proof’.”
But you did, GROG, and I quote from last night—
“Last night Pragmatus made a statement that the GOP is all “lies and bullshit”, which is a common theme among the left and here on 538.
I challenged him to a little exercise where he would list the lies and bullshit from the GOP and I would respond with lies and bullshit from the Democrats. He was smart enough to not take me up on the challenge.”
(By the way GROG, I twice linked to GOP bullshit, you just weren’t paying attention.)
Now a quote from Lady Macbeth that might be helpful to GROG—
“Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive.”
Translation: If you’re going to lie, be prepared to get enmeshed in a tangle of them, as you tell more and more lies to bolster the first one.
So I repeat—the GOP = lies and bullshit; GROG = lies and bullshit and selective forgetfulness.
Russ said...
re: civility
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Russ, the current state of politics is reflected by today's Congress where Dems and Reps despise each other!
No surprise 538 reflects this reality in political discourse, especially since 538 does not require membership and has no rules and regulations.
and yes, your topic has been discussed here and at other political blogs ad nauseam, no biggie.
It is what it is, exasperated at 538 because of its structure or lack thereof.
GROG said...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
No Grog, I was obviously only sarcastically commenting on Brian's grammar minutia hijacking of the previous thread and not about your mistake, which I was only using as an example as every poster at 538 makes mistakes.
So again, it is you who is truly clueless.
take care
@Shiloh:
I completely understand that...but what I don't understand is why people here can't realize that the personal attacks help nothing. I'm a liberal, probably as liberal as anyone here, but I'm reluctant to comment sometimes because I don't want to get lumped in with the liberals who are just proving conservatives' points with their petty attacks. This goes both ways and I find it ridiculous as it doesn't help win supporters in any way and only turns of supporters.
Pragmatus:
Try to follow me here. I never said I wanted "proof" that there were "lies and bullshit" from the right. I just asked you to list some and then I would list some from the left.
Try to deal with the truth. Especially when you're quoting someone whose words are well documented right here on these threads.
shiloh:
If that's the case, then I do apologize. I guess I'm so used to your personal insults that I thought that was one as well.
Again, I am sorry.
I think 70,000 or so is just about the right number. Why ? Well because after looking at the stunning aerial photos that the Boston Globe (sorry, do a google) has from the January inaugural its a no brainer. Obama crowds stretched all the way to the Washington monument. Tea party folk went a little past the reflecting pond - plus they had signs and tons of other stuff not allowed at the inaugural. That and fact the Obama event had 2 maybe 3x the density of people in front of the reflecting pond. Go to CSPAN and view the different parts of the 3hr Tea Party and you'll see what I mean.
The 53-inch penis will go down in history as the best thing that came out of this whole demonstration. You are forged from solid win.
Unfortunately, the UK's Daily Mail picked up the lying numbers (is there a term for google reporting? Googorting?) and so we'll have to deal with people that really believe that 2 million people were in DC yesterday.
In my own blog entry this morning, though, I just couldn't bring myself to /care/ exactly what the teaparty objections to the Public option are:
http://publicoption.blogspot.com/2009/09/giving-one.html
It strikes me how closely today’s GOP parallels the Democratic Party of 1860, which deliberately split itself (it nominated two separate tickets for president) for the sole purpose of allowing the Republican Lincoln to win. When he did win there was jubilation throughout the South, as they saw his election as a perfect excuse for southern states to secede. They had painted Lincoln as a “black abolitionist” and, extending the fantasy, declared that because he was an abolitionist he would abolish slavery and thus violate the Constitution with its guarantees for slaveholders. Somewhere in that muddle of illogic was a rationale for secession—in the sort of twisted reasoning common to them (and today’s GOP) they would “preserve” the Constitution by ripping it to shreds.
The similarities between 1860 and now are striking. The South’s crazy fervor was identical to the teabaggers’, both claiming they represented a “new revolution”. Time was running out for slavery across the world, so the South wanted to stop the clock. The “teabaggers” want to roll it back to some imaginary time when they think there was no government.
As the Democrats tore themselves apart in the 1860s, so the GOP is tearing itself up now. You can’t win voters to your cause if all you can do is throw tantrums and lie. For all their rabid claims that the voters are turning against Obama (based on worthless Rasmussen “polling”) their own numbers are plunging into the abysmal. Only 17% of Americans have a favorable impression of the GOP.
Even if it were true that Democrats are losing support across the country, that support isn’t transferring itself to the GOP.
Russ said...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I said, w/out rules and regulations hard to moderate personal attacks. Even at political blogs which have rules and moderation discussion can be a contact sport.
Being political since the late '60s and discussing politics since 2004, 2009 is the first time I can remember a governor of a state wanting to secede his state from the union ie the Reps are really, really pissed they lost the last election, especially to an African/American!
And don't be afraid of the many, many conservative trolls at 538 as they're harmless. As they are everywhere else they appear on the net. Passive/aggressive is the norm at political blogs.
p.s. hopefully my grammar is up to speed. ;)
GROG said...
If that's the case, then I do apologize.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GROG, I accept your apology, really. :)
kumbaya, take care
In line with the current insanity within the GOP, I wouldn’t be surprised to find them trying to keep the president’s name off the ballot in southern states in 2012. It was a trick used in 1860, and we all know how much the GOP slavishly adores the sainted past…
Yes a hohum demo by demo standards, but definitely not something to be ignored. I know their walk and talk because yrs back I used to be there myself. NOT ANYMORE
OBAMA44
EV- Yesterday the Mall was in use by the Black Family Reunion, put on by the National Conference of Negro Women. Any photo you saw of the Mall was either cropped to remove them or was not actually taken yesterday.
EV- Plus, the teabaggers were at the Capitol, which is on the far opposite side of the Mall from the Reflecting Pond (which is by the Lincoln Memorial).
Folks:
Classical conservatives believed in using the state to control the economy and enforce morals.
Classical liberals believed in limited government to ensure individual liberty.
With the advent of socialism, the modern liberalism beginning with the progressives decided that government power rather than limited government was the best way to ensure the best outcome for the proletariat and adopted the traditionally conservative position of using the state to control the economy, but largely kept the classical liberal view on morals.
With the advent of Reagan, conservatism adopted the traditional classical liberal position on free markets and largely reduced morals legislation outside of abortion to lip service.
Reagan conservatism is far closer to revolutionary classical liberalism than is Obama socialism. The GOPs problem recently is that it lost the modern classical liberal/libertarian wing of Reagan conservatism with Bush's "big government conservatism" - perhaps the worst political oxymoron of our new century.
The Tea Party movement are the freedom loving folks Bush's GOP lost. If the GOP wants them back, it is time to get back to the first principles of Reagan conservatism/classical liberalism.
Live free or die, GOP!
The British press said this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html#ixzz0QyLai4Rr
I went to anti-nuclear and anti-draft registration marches in the 80s, and the gay rights march in the 90s.
This was bigger. You can tell the mainstream media are lying. The Washington Post for example, usually gives actual estimates from the Park Service etc. But today its headlines just said vaguely "tens of thousands."
Bart- "Reduced morals legislation outside of abortion to lip service" Is that what you call Nancy Reagan's War on Drugs? Or fighting tooth and nail to keep laws persecuting gays on the books? The Reagan GOP talked a good game of being "classical liberals," but when the time came to actually do things, they were Rockefeller Republicans through and through, giving handouts to big business at the expense of workers and the poor.
The only true way of judging this in any accuracy is to find a log of back then and decide of the parties did take such opions or polls . Good post but i think it still harbors on the possiblity of narrows margins.
Trevor www.rainbowofluv.com
Bruce- The Park Service didn't have an estimate because the protesters weren't in any of the parks. They were on Penn Ave and at the Capitol, under the purview of the DC police, not on the Mall (which is run by the Park Service). Meaning that the Park Service wasn't involved. And by the way, the Park Service doesn't count any more than the municipality does; Farrakhan again.
Pragmatus said...
In line with the current insanity within the GOP, I wouldn’t be surprised to find them trying to keep the president’s name off the ballot in southern states in 2012. It was a trick used in 1860, and we all know how much the GOP slavishly adores the sainted past…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Continuing the thought, what really, really helped Dems in 2008 is early voting, as yes Virginia ;) Dems are lazy whereas the dwindling Rep party, as a rule, always gets out their vote.
Whereas it is true the previous (8) years totally depressed the party of No! and a certain % probably stayed home.
But Obama's donor base is totally computerized and ready for his army of supporters/volunteers in 2012. They know the names of just about all the 69.5 million folk who voted for him in 2008.
This is not your grandfather's Dem party. Will Rogers would be sad. lol
I'm a little late to this party, but I will echo some of the commments above, with the following hypothetical:
Suppose the event drew everybody interested within about 100 miles that could attend.
Extrapolating from that area to the populated area of the USA, each of the 70,000 represented about 84 interested adults that could NOT attend due to distance or other constraints.
That would put the number of sympathetic adults at 5.9M in the country, out of 100M adults, that would be less than 6% of adults in the country.
We shouldn't be making policy decisions of ANY kind based on the most vocal 6% of adults of ANY stripe, conservative, liberal, republican, democrat, whatever. If we cave to the one in 17 that screams the loudest, 16 of us get screwed to mollify that one, and that is both idiotic and undemocratic.
Policy should either be made by popular consensus, or decided by Congress or the Courts as a matter of freedom or social justice beyond the reach of majority rule.
We should never be setting policy to mollify some screaming children.
Look CSPAN has 3hrs of this... and when I say mall I'm referring to everything in front of the speakers platform going out in the direction of the Washington monument.
Anyone who takes anything CBS Atlanta says seriously has problems. Worst local news ever.
@ Ross
Ouch. I had this long, well-crafted comment put together, then I hit Preview instead of Post and dropped the whole thing. I'll try to remember the good bits as best I can.
According to the Center for Remote Sensing (?), the tally for the Million Man March is around 870,000. The Nation of Islam still clocks it at between 1.5 to 2 million. The point I was trying to make is that protesters and organizers have a stake in inflating their numbers, but I don't see how the police of the fire department have a reason to deflate them. Their issue is safety, not politics. The left had similar tally disputes during their protest era, but that doesn't make them any more honest.
(I can already sense someone arguing that the government is pressuring officials. All I'll say to that is: prove it. Otherwise, good day to you.)
Even Fox News is going with the official estimates. Considering their demographics, they'd have a vested interest in looking for bigger numbers. I guess they couldn't find any from trustworthy sources.
But what's going to be remembered about this protest is that rather serious error/lie about the tally. Many a Tea Partier will believe it, convinced of the MSM's bias. This will only drag the dialog further into Crazytown.
Umm…
With all the wild accusations from the right being aimed at the president (you know—he’s a socialist, a communist, a fascist, a Nazi) I think a little refresher on the political thought that characterizes the current GOP might be in order.
If you are looking for a picture of what the GOP will stand for in 2010, this is it, only more so.
Sorry for the misunderstanding ?
Nothing says classical liberalism like Reagan's foreign adventurism, massive unfunded government spending, increasing payroll taxes, propping up dictators, escalating the "drug war," undermining the rule of law, and staring down the barrel of nuclear holocaust with his Armaggedon goggles on. Reagan was no William Graham Sumner, but rather a senile actor with similar difficulty differentiating between reality and fantasy as those that have erected him as a demigod in the face of the merciless shame of Richard Nixon and the demographic weakness of losing the Northeast by embracing the Dixiecrats.
Tony C…
I think there are probably 200 million adults in the US rather than 100 million. The population is well over 300 million, and I seriously doubt two-thirds of them are under 18 (or 21 either.)
A couple of follow-ups:
@ Bruce the A.C.:
Ah, yes, the great MSM conspiracy. As supposed to Daily Mail perhaps taking the unsupported and clearly rejected memo and accidentally running with it?
If Michelle Malkin, who went with the figures, has to eat her words (or as close as it comes to it), why can't you?
@ Bart De Palma
* Live free or die, GOP! *
Must... resist... very obvious comment!
If I misunderstood then tell me what that small pond in front of the Capitol is called ? Where else were the marchers going except to the rally ? And if you watch CSPAN you will see the crowd at around 70,000.
kinkorknight- It's not that the police and fire department have any reason to deflate them, it's that they don't do an official count in the first place. The Farrakhan point was intended to point out why; it keeps them out of politics. Their estimates are based on eyeballing the situation as much as the participants are, at least when it comes to DC. Typically these things happen on the Mall, which makes it easy for the observers to figure out how many people were involved, since all the formulas already exist to allow anyone with an aerial shot to do the math, but this particular protest did not; it involved people moving down Penn Ave and adjacent streets to gather around the Capitol. And between the spread and the novel protest area, I'm not inclined to accept either party's numbers without quite a bit of skepticism.
@Ross, the police and FD have an "official estimate" (and no one quotes a persons name for that since it is an official estimate).
The police and FD have to manage crowd control and keep streets running, so they have good estimates of numbers in marches. When people congregate in front of the Capitol, they can estimate based on density samples against size of crowd (they can use their overhead IR footage to get density and look for variations - moderately accurate). This gives a fairly accurate estimate and will not be off by an order of magnitude (10x between 70K and 700K people as you all suggest), which is why they use a 12% or so range (e.g. 60K to 70K).
@GROG, I strongly suggest you read Nate's postings on the problems with such polls. The wording matters. If you ask someone whether they are for or against the "health care bill" or "health care plan", that tends to create problems when there is not in fact such a bill or plan. I agree that many fault Obama for this since he did not propose a specific plan, but instead requested Congress to come up with one/many.
One problem with this is that "liberals" are against a plan that does not have a public option (as is being floated by the WH to appease the Republicans). Neither Gallup nor Rasmussen calrified what "plan" or "bill" the respondent was to answer about. This is why people have strongly different answers when you ask about elements of the bill, such as public options.
EV- The small pond is part of the US Grant Memorial. The only photos I've seen from the Capitol (especially the one from the Globe you cite) don't have the statue of Grant in front of them, meaning that they were taken with the photographer most likely using them as an elevated point. Nor do there seem to be any reason to just assume that the photographer is at the back without further evidence. As to C-SPAN, I can't speak to that, except to point out that the protesters weren't all on one street, and to ask what exactly it was that C-SPAN showed? Just the march, or did they have images of the gathering around the Capitol?
Anyone one who thinks the fact that The Daily Mail picked up on the 2 million number means anything is a fool or doesn't know much about British newspapers. It's a tabloid with no real journalistic standards, basically halfway towards being the English version of the Weekly World News. If the Telegraph, Guardian, Times, Independent, FT, etc. reports the 2 million, then I'd believe it, but the Mail? You're taking the piss.
BDP, just like if Clinton died the Reps would dig him up ;) damn the Reps really, really want to dig up Reagan, eh.
Yes Virginia, there are no Ronald Wilson Reagan's on the horizon in their party.
but, but, but out of Sanford, Ensign, Vitter, Palin, Bachmann, Blackburn, Gingrich, mittens, Huckabee, Jindal, Cantor, Boehner, Perry, Pawlenty, etc. someone may rise from the ashes or not ;)
take care
p.s. Govt. is not the solution, govt. is the problem so maybe the Reps should pick a civilian as their nominee in 2012.
hmm, several to pick from: Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Billo, Coultergeist, Malkin, Savage, Boortz, Larson, Dobbs, Ingraham, Crowley, turdblossom, Morris, etc.
ok, it's a no-brainer, Palin and Cheney are civilians.
Oh the humanity!
PaulK- Since you clearly aren't even reading what I say ("700K people as you all suggest", despite the fact that I suggested no such thing, clearly saying that at the very most it was 500,000, with 200,000 being very believable, based on riding the Metro daily for 3 years and seeing various sizes of crowds and the effects that they have on transit times) I'm not going to respond further, except to point out that the municipality doesn't do "official estimates" anymore, as the last time they did so, Louis Farrakhan threatened to sue them. They discontinued the practice at that point, and now they just do rough estimations.
@GROG
Say what you will about shiloh. His overuse of the term 'ie' or his peculiar habit of saying 'but' three times in a row, but he's correct; the plural of 'sheep' is 'sheep'. Just like the plural of 'moose' is 'meese'. Capisce?
It might be interesting to have more refined estimates for the population of the gathering, if only to see what models people concoct to make them now that it is serious business on the Internet.
The actual number itself doesn't interest me all that much, unless you can show how that it is a suitable proxy for predicting election turnouts or legislative actions. It's not that I doubt the existence of a sizable number of anti-government crackpots; the Republicans have been cultivating them for decades and it would be more surprising if all of that message discipline had accomplished nothing. I just would like a better idea of how a crowd of 70k, 250k, 1.5M would translate into actual policy differences. FreedomWorks is congenitally full of shit, so the actual number doesn't matter to their efforts: they will make broad claims and they'll be brought up on Fox News every day. They'll stage the image of public support whether it is there or not, and the media will walk into it like they do every time.
How have other gatherings fared as predictors of outcomes, how much does the media fascination with the events influence their relevance, and are the rally numbers a better proxy for policy outcomes than approval ratings?
@Ross:
I can understand skepticism. I guess I'm more willing to accept the word of an observing official than of a protester with an agenda.
I saw some of these protest pictures. Lots of space in the streets in places. Lots of signs and lots of movement. Pretty chaotic. Gives the illusion of a bigger following. I remember watching the Iranian protests on the Web and the throngs of people with no signs filling the streets. THAT was a lot of people. This was nothing like those... and certainly not in the same category of reason nor bravery.
Davy said...
@GROG
~~~~~~~~~~~
but, but, but I tell the truth and don't hold a grudge. ;)
Life's too short!
@Ross:
Just to be clear, I'm not calling you a protester with an agenda.
Cheers.
The marchers were going to hear the speakers - the speakers were addressing the crowd of marchers that were gathering - the event lasted 3hrs - you can watch it on CSPAN - the estimate of 70,000 makes the most sense
Is there a way to compare the widely available photographic evidence of the crowds from yesterday to other crowds for DC protests whose size has been accepted - e.g., the Million Man March, or some of the May Day immigration marches from a few years back? I think the results would be quite telling.
Kinkorknight-I can absolutely understand that. If I hadn't been forced to go among them, I'd take the city's estimates over theirs too. And we're certainly in agreement as to the degree of courage and honor that this particular protest generated and upheld.
But then, I might still be upset; protesters are always kind of spacy in DC (they kind of see it as a tourist trap rather than an actual city) but these ones were especially rude. And hopeless; I had to interject three times to keep people from getting on the wrong train/get them onto the right one.
Big government conservative is NOT an oxymoron, it is simply more of the same from the ideology that has resisted freedom and progress since the time of the caveman.
Ronald Reagan? SERIOUSLY? This guy has nothing but loathing for individual liberty, despite his speeches claiming the contrary. This man essentially created the war on drugs, one of the worst impositions on freedom this country has seen since Prohibition. How would those classical liberals like Reagan's absurd militarization of our nation, from the army down to local police? Ask gays how they feel about Reagan's policies too, if you've got a minute. Not to mention his judicial appointments, who have got to be the most deferential to government intrusiveness of any since the turn of the 20th century.
So, if you mean did he lower taxes, he did. Good for him. That is NOT the entirety of freedom.
Now, although I'd love it if conservatives abandoned big government morality, they haven't. And if you're really suggesting they just pretend, what does that say? That might even be worse!
The Schreibers of Bellevue Blog…
The problem is finding actual pictures of the march. The teabag media has been slipping faked photos in (of previous marches) and saying they were of the recent protest. So I’m afraid we’re stuck with the estimates of the DC first-responders, which, since Fox Noise has accepted them, should be close enough to the truth.
Schreibers- The problem is that this protest took place in a somewhat atypical area for DC protests; most of them gather on the lawn at the Mall, where it's easy to make a determination as to how many people were there. Because the Mall was already in use (the aforementioned Black Family Reunion) this one didn't, and as a result, there's much less in the way of comparisons to be made, and no real, easy way to make them. Which is not to say it can't be done, just that it hasn't happened as of now, at least to my knowledge.
@Ross- Since you clearly aren't even reading what I say ..."
Yes, Bill said over a million and you said "At the very highest there was perhaps a half a million people". So, you were only 7x over the highest estimate, he was more than 10x. Your lower estimate was only 2x, but you based it on a small sampling on public transport at a few fixed times in the day.
"I'm not going to respond further, except to point out that the municipality doesn't do "official estimates" anymore" - they get around this by doing official estimates for the purpose of crowd control. That is, the estimate is necessary to gauge how many police and fire officers they need to handle crowd issues and safety issues.
They did not care that Farrakhan threatened to sue, as he could not show a cause of action (what is his tort?). They stopped publishing their estimates because they were accused of being political. Now, they will respond with the estimates they used to determine how many officers they needed, which is generally not a political issue.
By the way, the Farrakhan issue was because the MMM was spread across national park lands and streets and each department gave the estimates of only its part, which caused massive confusion.
Russ said,
I know this is off-topic but I feel it needs to be mentioned.
...instead of continuing civil disagreement posters on this site resort to mere personal attacks.
No need for personal attacks.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. I used to take the high road on this but I've just gotten so incensed at the righties invading the place that it became sort of a gratifying blood sport to shoot them out of the sky. I think I'm over it. Maybe that's why some of my other posting friends have left. Heck, I'm even supposed to meet Mule Rider for a beer and yelling session (which I still might do if he really has the balls). Barney Frank pehaps put it aptly when he said 'it's like talking to a dining room table'. We had an old saying back in Alabama (of which I am an ex-patriot); 'Never try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and makes you look foolish'.
I think I might spend some time doing something more constructive for awhile.
BDP said
'Folks:
Classical conservatives believed in using the state to control the economy and enforce morals.
Classical liberals believed in limited government to ensure individual liberty.
With the advent of socialism, the modern liberalism beginning with the progressives decided that government power rather than limited government was the best way to ensure the best outcome for the proletariat and adopted the traditionally conservative position of using the state to control the economy, but largely kept the classical liberal view on morals.
With the advent of Reagan, conservatism adopted the traditional classical liberal position on free markets and largely reduced morals legislation outside of abortion to lip service.
Reagan conservatism is far closer to revolutionary classical liberalism than is Obama socialism. The GOPs problem recently is that it lost the modern classical liberal/libertarian wing of Reagan conservatism with Bush's "big government conservatism" - perhaps the worst political oxymoron of our new century.
The Tea Party movement are the freedom loving folks Bush's GOP lost. If the GOP wants them back, it is time to get back to the first principles of Reagan conservatism/classical liberalism.'
-----------------------------------
OK first off, its true that classic economic liberalism has some similarities to the economics of Reagan. But its also true that conservatives in the 19th Century also believed in free markets. Until the development of populism in the US, and socialism elsewhere, economically there was a large amount of convergence in economic policy.
Liberals continue to believe in individual liberty. And 'That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men'.
I would argue that there are far more similarities between Reagan and Bush than almost any two Presidents in American History. Indeed one could say the failure of Bush was the complete victory of Reaganism. Tax cuts aimed at the richest, interventionist foreign policy to forcibly spread an American version of liberty, and a slavish belief in free market principles, as well as a belief in an 'originalist' judicial philosophy.
Its possibly true that Bush lost the libertarians, that largely seem to me to make up the Tea Party/912 movement. But not because he had gone too far or strayed too far from the Reagan Orthodoxy, but more because he was being unpopular. (libertarians like nothing more than a winner and hate nothing more than a loser.) Without empirical evidence, I would suggest that many on the tea party movement have at least some support for Ron Paul. I tend to think the movement thinks it is far more popular than it really is. Remember that Paul supporters would spend ages saying how he was going to get a surprise win in Iowa/New Hampshire/ every other early state that never happened. It may appear a large grassroots movement, but I suggest its a lot more noise than substance.
What will be interesting though is to see how far the Republican primary candidates in 2012 are prepared to go to win these people's support.
@shiloh
No disrespect, sir. Your service to this country is much appreciated.
HAAAAAAAY BART!!!!!
This from Fox Noise (sorry, Russ. guess I'm not done with the political smackdowns yet):
The tens of thousands of protesters marched to the U.S. Capitol chanting various slogans and waving posters that voiced a rather broad array of grievances against big government
"Tens of thousands". I guess that's code for less than 100,000. Or about the size of a crowd at a Washington Cardinals game, eh?
Found ZERO crowd shots on Freedomworks' own web page. That's what made me suspicious of the arithmetic. One would think the principle organization behind the tea party groups would have 1 decent crowd shot. Thanks for linking the Malkin pics. Definitely bigger than the impression I got from google search, MSNBC, and Freedomworks.
Democrats Ignore this at their peril. Regardless of the fact that these people were apparently fine when we had 3 unfunded tax cuts in 5 years ('01,'03,'05), when we launched two wars and THEN passed tax cuts AFTER we had troops overseas, when Republicans passed Part D without increasing revenue...etc...etc. These are the people who would have normally voted for Republicans but stayed home in '08 partly because of the lack of Fiscal conservatism during Republican rule.
We highlight the Glenn Beck Wackos and people who think that dental care for veterans is Fascist "because the Nazi's had a dental plan too" to our detriment. Many of these people just want to make sure we pay for what we want, which is a fairly rational position, even if articulated in fairly irrational methods. (tri-point hats and dogs dressed like pirates don't convince so much as encourage ridicule). 'Paying our own way' is something most of us have been having to do our entire lives.
Ross said...
Bart- "Reduced morals legislation outside of abortion to lip service" Is that what you call Nancy Reagan's War on Drugs?
The War on Drugs started back in the 60s and 70s when liberal Dem Congress enacted laws in reaction to the drug abuse excesses. The conservative GOP Congress continued this liberal proceeding. Neither modern liberalism or modern conservatism are perfect in their adherence to classical liberalism/libertarianism.
Or fighting tooth and nail to keep laws persecuting gays on the books?
What conservative federal or state government is "persecuting gays?" BTW, declining to rewrite marriage law is not persecution.
The Reagan GOP talked a good game of being "classical liberals," but when the time came to actually do things, they were Rockefeller Republicans through and through, giving handouts to big business at the expense of workers and the poor.
Reagan conservatism was a reaction to and a repudiation of Rockefeller Republicans. We in the libertarian wing of the GOP have been trying to run folks like Specter and McCain out of the party ever since.
@JFisher, the point is specifically that these people did not seem to worry about deficits and spending when it was for Bush's wars, nor did they worry about the fact that the tax cuts were not for them; it is less clear what they thought about bailouts for AIG and the banks - I suspect that split them down the middle. Their freaking out about spending seems to be only when Obama is doing it (this started before the health care debate). Further "just want to make sure we pay for what we want" - that is not true. They are saying that they do not want their tax dollars paying for X (where X may be immigrants or poor people or banks or whatever). Some may go so far as to say that they do not want their children paying for X (which is more of what you are referring to), but that does not seem to be the main thrust of it.
Uh, don't try to pin the draconian anti-drug measures of Reagan on liberals. We all know the truth of this matter.
Declining to permit gays to enter into marriage contracts and visit each other in the hospital is persecuting, I'd say. Not to mention refusing to repeal sodomy laws until that wonderful Lawrence v. Texas decision that will no longer permit big-government conservatives to dictate the legality of consensual sexual conduct.
Reagan conservatism was a kowtow to the social conservatives. Even Barry Goldwater knew it, though he did like Reagan for some reason, when he pointed out the social conservative "hijacking" of your movement. How you in the "libertarian" wing of the Republicans tolerate those fools is beyond me. Are you saying Barry Goldwater was wrong or lying when he criticized the advent of moralistic conservatism?
So, tallying up the score, you've got the failed candidacy of one classical liberal (Goldwater) following a long history of classical conservatism, then followed quickly by Nixon's strange amalgamation, and quickly running directly into Ronald Reagan's renewed classical conservatism on social and foreign policy issues with classical liberalism on economic ones. Essentially, you are trying to coopt the meaning of "conservative" while representing a small portion of the greater conservative movement that in reality does not reflect your small government ideals.
Specter and McCain aren't your problem. Palin, Santorum, Brownback, Scalia, these are your problems. Run THEM out of your party.
happycozy said...
Okay, Nate, it was an impressive size crowd. That is until you take into consideration:
1. Fox News and Glenn Beck have been advertising this event for several months.
2. Millions were spent on this event.
3. Freedomworks bussed thousands of people from across the nation.
For these three reasons, this protest was a massive failure. That this is all they muster from around the nation tells me these people are a small minority.
A half million people marched against the war in Iraq and for immigration reform, and they both barely got blurbs on most cable news networks. If 500K people couldn't change government policy, why are we cowering to 70K crazies?
Nailed it!
@Bart DePalma,
"The War on Drugs started back..."
Reagan threw massive amounts of new money (tax dollars) at it and made a big show of it.
"What conservative federal or state government is "persecuting gays?" -
Think Anita Bryant, who got support from Reagan. That campaign pushed from local to State laws intended to discriminate against Gay people in terms of housing, employment, custody, hospital visits, handling by police, etc. Denying rights of "civil marriage" (vs. religious issues) is discrimination.
"Reagan conservatism was a reaction to and a repudiation of Rockefeller Republicans."
It was supposed to be by kowtowing to the religious right, but in the end, they spent money right and left. Reagan could not find a military project he did not love, he could not stop himself trying to insert US style values in other countries (at great expense), and had no problem spending tax dollars. Sadly, he also had no understanding of basic math, so he was quite comfortable cutting taxes to the very rich and the larger multi-national corps (not small businesses) and did not worry about deficits.
Of course we also know what "red meat" he was throwing to the social conservatives to keep them happy - going after gay rights, family planning (including overseas), abortion, etc.
One quote I remember about Reagan and his policies was that he seemed adept at turning plowshares into swords.
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