I didn’t wander down to the Capitol and National Mall on Saturday because I’m nursing a bum ankle from a spill I took playing pickup hoops. But I wish had been able to go, and I further wish I had developed even a crude survey instrument to administer to protesters. What I would have asked them is one, simple question, “Whom did you support in last year’s Republican primaries?”
My suspicion is there would be an unusually high number of people replying, "Ron Paul."
I realize the protesters who came to Washington Saturday are not a representative sample of all those making noises at health care town halls. Surely, East Coasters or those who happen to live in relative proximity to DC were overrepresented. Whatever their hometowns, those too ill to make the trek were probably (and ironically) underrepresented. And, like many such protests, some attendees were there as much to push their own single-issue agendas, such as anti-abortion or pro-gun platforms, as they were to protest specifically the Obama Administration’s health care reform plan. And I’m sure there were still others who, regardless of their interest or feelings about health care reform, simply oppose the president for a variety of legitimate (He’s too liberal!) or nutjobby (He’s a fascist-socialist Muslim infidel born in Kenya!) reasons.
But strip away the angry rhetoric and easily-mocked signs to listen to what people are complaining about--and, perhaps more tellingly, what they are not complaining about--and the protesters sound eerily Paulesque. They are complaining about government intrusion: oppressive use of government (czars!), too much intervention in personal lives and markets (death panels!), long-term debt obligations (where will the money come from?!), and the proper role of the federal government (it's all so unconstitutional!)--that is, they fret that Obama is going to destroy America and American values from within. What the vast majority do not seem to be complaining about, so far as I can tell, is how the Administration is fighting and managing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, or its overall security and intelligence posture--that is, they don't seem too worried that Obama is going to let America be destroyed from the outside.
Granted, a plausible explanation for a general absence of defense or foreign policy critiques is that the national conversation right now is focused squarely on health care coverage, deficits and debt, and domestic policy more generally. It may well be that if I poked a Saturday protester in DC he or she would have had something critical to say about Obama’s foreign and defense policies, too. Still, it's interesting to consider the possibility that the town halls of Summer 2009 are a rekindled version of Ron Paul rallies in 2007 and 2008. And one of the reasons I suspect this is the nature of the fervor itself--its tenor, its intensity, its certainty, and especially its language.
Anyone like me who writes publicly about politics knows that if you wrote anything even mildly critical of Ron Paul during the presidential race, your inbox was soon flooded with complaints...even if your comments were largely laudatory! In my Baltimore Sun column of August 1, 2007, I argued that, whatever else one thought about them, Paul and Democratic Rep. Dennis Kucinich were serving an identical purpose in their respective parties' nomination field: keeping their fellow candidates' feet to the fire on their Iraq war records. Overall, the piece praised both men (*see excerpt below). But because I happened to dismiss Paul's chances at the nomination, and referred to both men as "quirky gadflies"--a label I'd happily apply to myself, for the record--I was snowed under by rage-filled comments. I regret not saving the emails that August, but suffice to say that the comments posted in response to the column at this link are a very good approximation of the reactions I received directly.
Notice from these comments not only the certainty that Paul's candidacy and chances at the nomination were being underestimated, but the equal certainty with which followers believed in him and his ideas. Notice, too, the references to honesty, to the proper understanding of American history and the Constitution, and of course the unrelenting pique directed at the mainstream media's overlooking of Paul, his ideas, and his supporters.
Best I can tell, The Daily Beast's Dana Goldstein is the only person who so far has tried to document a connection between the Paulites and the protesters. In a brilliant investigative essay, which I strongly recommend people read in full, Goldstein writes:One of Paul’s main arguments from the campaign, that much social spending is unconstitutional, has become a rallying cry of the Republican base. At a health-care town-hall meeting in Sun City, Arizona, on August 25, a woman asked McCain, “I would like to know how the president is getting by with all of this money....It’s against the Constitution. Doesn’t he know that we still live under a Constitution?” McCain was booed when he replied, “I’m sure that [Obama] respects the Constitution of the United States.” In part, Paul’s anti-federal ideology has gained traction because conservatives are incensed by President Obama’s ambitious—and expensive—domestic agenda, from health reform to the federal stimulus to bank bailouts. And in part, it’s because libertarian thinking is easier for mainstream Republicans to embrace on healthcare than it is on doing away with the Federal Reserve or ending American imperialism. Right wing poster girl Rep. Michele Bachmann, an originator of the false "death panel" rumor, has promised to schedule a Minnesota town hall meeting with Paul in September...
This is a long excerpt, but to unpack it quickly let's just say that you see many of the elements we witnessed at both the summer town halls and last Saturday's protest march. Yes, there are complaints about liberals, Democrats, ACORN and so forth. But the larger complaint is about an unconstitutional usurpation of power, of tyranny through socialism (or fascism, protestors can't seem to keep the two straight), and a general paranoia about not just Obama and the Democratic Congress but the whole Washington system. It's an "invasion," sure, but an invasion from within.
But there’s a darker side to the story: Some of Paul’s grassroots supporters have protested, armed, at health-care town-hall meetings. They are connected in a loose-knit, nationwide network of activists who believe the current federal government is largely illegitimate and unconstitutional. Some have ties to the “birther” movement, which believes—disregarding all evidence—that President Obama is not a natural-born American citizen.
To be fair, Paul’s Congressional office and his nonprofit, the Campaign for Liberty, have no direct ties to the gun-toting protesters....
As he did on the campaign trail, Paul argues that inflation is the chief cause of rising health-care costs, and that the solution is tort reform and cutting taxes. He also blames the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. “You can’t keep expanding a war in the Middle East and pretend you can come up with a $2 trillion medical-care program,” Paul said. “I think the statistics are showing that the American people are turning against the Afghanistan war. And can you imagine how much health care we could have had without the bailout packages?”
“With the collapsing of the economy and this rush for more government medical care, the people are much more alarmed and concerned and outspoken than I ever dreamed of,” Ron Paul said.
This sounds like reasonable opposition. But the fact is many of Paul’s most ardent supporters aren’t listening carefully to their leader. In Portsmouth, New Hampshire, on August 11, television networks captured William Kostric, a native Arizonan, standing outside a presidential town-hall meeting wearing a 9-mm handgun strapped to his belt. He held a sign referencing the Thomas Jefferson quote, “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots.” Kostric’s MySpace profile lists Paul as his “hero” and someone he’d “like to meet.” The page also includes lyrics to a pro-Ron Paul rap song....
One of the Phoenix protesters, Chris Broughton, a former Paul campaign volunteer, carried an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. “This government is the most corrupt Mafioso on the face of the earth,” Broughton later told the Arizona Republic. Broughton attends a church led by Pastor Steven Anderson, who delivered a sermon the day before the event praying for Obama’s death and calling him a “socialist devil.”
What more typical conservatives might not realize is that armed protesters like Broughton and Kostric represent an ideology far more complex and radical than simply opposing “socialized” medicine or increased government spending. Their worldview is pro-life, anti-tax, and hawkish on immigration, which they call an “invasion”—but also passionately anti-war and anti-authoritarian.
Circumstantial evidence also links protesters to Paulites. Michelle Goldberg notes that FOX News gives Paul allay Andrew Napolitano significant exposure (even if only online). Robert Broadus, who ran for Congress in Maryland's 4th District, is a Ron Paul tea partier who showed up to complain at a Ben Cardin town hall and was soon thereafter invited on Neil Cavuto's show.
What does all this mean? Two curiosities come most immediately to mind.
First, what's interesting here as pertains to media coverage is the very real possibility that the same "mainstream/liberal media" that ignored and dissed Ron Paul and his supporters are now bending over backward to give them coverage beyond their actual numbers. Second, as pertains to the Republican Party and the conservative movement, what's interesting is the possible elevation of a movement that two years ago was insufficient to nominate its preferred candidate to a position of being able to change the policy debate and cow the very same Republican elites who lined up, almost to a person, behind other Republican presidential contenders.
Hopefully, pollsters or investigative reporters will try to drill down a bit further to learn more about these protesters. And now I must go prepare for the impending email deluge.
(*The Sun links go stale after a few weeks and I could not find a reprint anywhere. The following excerpt is verbatim final four graphs of the column:
It's easy to dismiss as reckless the statements of these war opponents. But at least their positions have the benefit of consistency: If you oppose the war and think it is going badly, they insist, then vote against it.
Their critique carries a different subtext for Democrats and Republicans, however. Mr. Kucinich's roughly translates as, "Democrats who vote for the war's continuation while mouthing dissatisfaction to score political points are hypocrites." What Mr. Paul is saying is, "Republicans who vote to perpetuate the war while blathering about supporting the troops who would undoubtedly be safer at home just to score political points are hypocrites."
A recent national poll shows Mr. Kucinich and Mr. Paul at 3 percent and 2 percent, respectively, among their party's primary voters. Their electoral problems go well beyond electability to near-invisibility. They are treated like novelty items, to be picked up momentarily, puzzled over and put back on a shelf.
But in a country where majorities think the war was a mistake, has not been worth it, has aggravated terrorism risks for the country and needs to end, is it a bad thing to have two quirky gadflies who hold their colleagues to account for the biggest policy fiasco in decades?)
9.14.2009
Ron Paul Rallies, V.2009?
by Tom Schaller @ 3:00 PM...see also health care, obama, paul
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George Stephanopoulos Misrepresents OWN ABC Poll that Supports Public Option (from 55%-76%)
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8124
The corporate media never quits with the lies, even if it means throwing their own reporting under the bus.
If you'd asked me "Whom did you support in last year's Republican primaries?" I'd have replied "It's 'who' not 'whom', anyone who wasn't a pompous ass stopped using the accusative in about 1873".
Yeah, but how come we never heard from these assholes when Bush was president?
I think there's some overlap... but I think a lot of these loons that are protesting now weren't on the Ron Paul bus last year... I don't think these people are mostly anti-war.
Also - I think MANY Ron Paul supporters have deserted him and are actually highly disappointed in the direction he's taken.
I think many Paul supporters liked him on his foreign policy and civil liberties stances but never really concerned themselves much with his "free market" stuff... now that they are seeing what that really means - they want no part of it.
I think you're wrong. I think the protesters are primarily Glenn Beck/Fox News fans. And Fox has repeatedly shown that they are NOT fans of Paul. Some Paul supporters were obviously mixed in, but the majority were of the confused/uneducated Fox News-watching ilk. While Ron Paul voters do sometimes revel in conspiracy theories, they generally seem to be well informed on the issues. These protesters repeat Fox's talking points and only give a damn about spending now that a Democrat is in office.
Read some of the posts on Foxnation.com. These were the marchers.
These aren't actually fans of Ron Paul. They're people who would've been receptive to Paul's message had it been similarly amplified by mainstream media outlets and supported by deep pocketed lobbying outfits to delay or prevent the passage of meaningful healthcare reform, cap and trade legislation, etc.
I also don't really get why it's so important to find out who they are. It's a tiny fraction of the American public who would never support anything that Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh tell them not to. Limbaugh said that Ron Paul said we deserved 9/11 so he's a traitor, etc... so that's how it went.
A paulist core makes sense. In the run up to this hilarious failure, there was surges of shrill right wingnuts on every imaginable comment outlet like some world war one artillery saturation of a flanders swamp.
On thursday night I was returning with friends from a Maine road trip and we played with the car radio to find out what Maine noise is like.
We got good signal from an am station talk show format with Mark Levin, a second string loon rouser who could make a good Elmer Fudd of inchoate slobbering rage with Obama as that wascawwy wabbit..Bugs Obama.
The guy was that cartoonish.
We sang 'Kill the wabbit' in that wagnerian melody to back up Levins vein popping harangues and it worked quite well.
From all the hue and cry I figured Loonstock in DC was gonna be huge.
But it LAID A BIG FAWKIN EGG!!!
Am I the only one to notice that the entire right wing noise machine seems to have ditched it like a live grenade?..Nothing.
It's like it never happened...if it worked, they'd be milking it for days, maybe weeks.WOW.
And the streams of wingnut comments across blog land and the media sites seems to have dried up or way slowed.
They are in shock.
Yes crazies..no one likes you. The other 70 percent of us, despite our various disagreements are being increasingly pressed into some awkward collective embrace because you suck that much.
Way to go.
I imagine they'll be back after long with new rabid foaming but this may well have been a watershed event and not in the way they hoped for.
V word. revive.
Conventional wisdom might divide the country into 1/3 Repub, 1/3 Dem, and 1/3 'swing' or independent voters. In each 1/3, there are your wingnuts and your moderates. Both far left and far right wingers are normally leavened in their repsective party by moderates and the necessity to appeal to independents. This gives us the "run left in the primary, run to the middle in general" and vice versa that is also very conventional wisdom.
With party ID approaching 34% for Dems and 35% for independent, the Repubs are clinging to 24.4% (see http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php). When you combine these declining numbers with the tradition of moderates and independents to not get excited unless it's a big election year, you've got a situation ripe for the wingnuts to exert a voice larger than their actual influence.
Consider that if 10% of repubs (and dems too) are wingnuts, then you'll have 20% who aren't and the moderates will leaven the nuts. When your party shrinks to 24%, you've got a 10/14 split, and if the moderates are not highly motivated, the "voice of the party" will default to the only ones around to talk: the wingnuts.
You see a similar situation playing out on the Dem side, as the ranks of Dems swell above 30%, you can see the moderate, middle road Dems exert more influence over the left wing-nuts (to use terms equally). If we assume a CW 10% left wing nuts and 20% moderate breakdown, when the party picks up an additional 5% of moderate independents in a given year, the influence of the 10% left wing is not going to be heard. Thus the cries about the public option even when President Obama must have internal polling showing that his wingnuts won't leave him without a public option, but his newly minted Dems and supportive independents will.
I don't believe there is any long term change in what the public believes the republicans are about. The situation at hand is that wingnuts, be they Paulites, birthers, or some other variety of right wing nut, now has the numbers in their favor. If they can crash party meetings, rallies, and other events, they can institutionalize their opinions into official opinions. Unless they are leavened by moderate voices, however, they will continue to decline, and swiftly.
I predict you'd get a lot of Paul, and a good bit of Huckabee too.
My anecdotal observation from the crowds at townhalls in NY-20 is that they were by and large Ron Paul Libertarians or NRA members. Those were the only two groups that had clearly organized for the events.
Irwin Handleman said...
Yeah, but how come we never heard from these assholes when Bush was president?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Because they were all Reps back then and now they are all Independents. ;)
Run Ron Paul, Run!
The paulists are considered to be a special sub cult of tin foil hat wing nuts in many corners of the blogosphere.
Karl Denninger all but banned them from his Ticker Forum out of exasperation and Karl is no liberal.
They have occasional posting rashes over at Calculated Risk, one of the best financial blogs run by a kindly old former banking regulator.
They are a common presence on Newspaper comment sections and make up for their small numbers by being incessant pests using multiple handles in a technique called sock puppetry.
They believe in equal opportunity foam spew.
In some ways, it recalls the way the illusionists influenced battles. J. B. Macgruder fooled McLellan in the Virginia peninsula campaign by marching the same bunch over a hill repeatedly and Jasper Maskalyne baffled Rommel with similar ruses in the World war 2 desert campaign.
I am glad someone else has noted the similarities between Paulites and these protestors. I don't know if they are exactly the same people or if they just have similar instincts. But there are clearly links. I'd be interested in any kind of evidence that the route of these peoples political activity went something like Paul-Palin [more than McCain]- teabaggers. I think there are clear similarities running through a lot of those people.
The interesting thing will be where these people go in 2012. Ron Paul, I would have thought, would be too old to run. If Palin runs I would expect them to back her, but if she holds back looking at 2016, it will be interesting to see if they find a whom.
On the protest. I don't know how precise this is, but it seems to makea good case that the protest was a heck of a lot bigger than 70,000.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/how-big-was-the-crowd/
I would imagine that the protesters would be best captured by a Venn Diagram.
Glen Beck/O'Reilly/Limbaugh apocalyptic conservatives would be one circle.
Ron Paul supporters would be another circle.
The protesters would be the interstition between the two groups.
Gun nuts, anti-big government, racists, and anti-immigration folks would be the majority in the interstition.
Religious conservatives (I am sure many of these guys are social conservatives, but not as their salient motivator - you don't see too many posters about gay marriage or even abortion) do not appear to all that well-represented. Anti-war paleo-libertarians/college kids (a core part of the Ron Paul crowd) also seem poorly represented.
I think if anything, this is a crowd most similar to the "angry white males" that went for Perot in 1992, and who launched Contract with America in 1994.
Contrary to the above poster I do not see these as Paul-Palin people. Palin's strongest supporters are religious/cultural conservatives not anti-government nativist types. I could see Newt Gingrich winning their votes before Palin.
hosertohoosier said
'I would imagine that the protesters would be best captured by a Venn Diagram.
Glen Beck/O'Reilly/Limbaugh apocalyptic conservatives would be one circle.
Ron Paul supporters would be another circle.'
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I wonder if those two groups are pretty much the same. I think its very easy to assume that somehow Beck/O'Reilly/Limbaugh followers are just right wing nuts, but I wonder if they aren't really just anti government (note not anti big government, anti government) conservatives to whom Paul's message was aimed at. I'm sure we have all met them in various boards on the internet, and in other walks of life, its a very black and white, pro market, anti government message they spread. High on decibels, low on intellectual support in the end though.
I can't believe how anti-free speech all you progressives are. Just because somone disagrees with you doesn't make them a racist fool.
And calling them assholes just highlights your lack of understanding (and vocabulary).
As long as Maureen Dowd and the Lemon guy from CNN keep on labeling these protesters as "racist" and the rest of the progress-o-sphere labels the teabaggers, the anger and volume will simply keep rising.
And in answer to the implied question about why there is less anger about Obama's foreign policy, it's because, by and large, he hasn't deviated much from what was being done prior to his election. His stupidity (cia interrogators being investigated and colsing GTMO) has not borne any bad results (yet). His economic policies have. His health care policies , as nebulous as they are, are wasteful ad would destroy what is great baout our health care system: that is is simply the best and the most efficient at getting results for the patinet.
Yes, there are access problems, but only for a small percentage. That can be fixed or helped by small measures (and probably will, as the public option is pretty much dead). The case for spending trillions to helped a small percentage of people can't be made with a straight face.
I know being hit in the face with hard logic hurts and goes against all the gooey "Hope" and "Change" rhetoric, but this is real life, and Obama is a real crappy leader. He is great if you like throwing money away.
And in answer to where we fiscal conservatives were when Bush was president, we we against his wasteful spending also, but Obama makes Bush seem like a fiscal conservative with his pork-u-lous bill and this crap of a health care proposal.
Enjoy your tax hikes everyone. Or do you still believe the canard of "lowering taxes for 95% of taxpayers"?
@Lehman
There is noting anti-freedom of speech about disagreeing with those who disagree with you. Even if we are unfairly criticizing that's not against the freedom of speech.
Being against freedom of speech means the law says you can go to jail, lose your job, or lose your home for your opinion.
There is no impunity of speech in the Constitution. If you say something, EVERYONE has the right to disagree with you in whatever medium they like. EVERYONE has the right to say that you Shouldn't say it, not that you Can't say it.
Freedom of Speech protects you from legal and physical retribution, it is not your mother, it will not protect you from the other school boys that call you names, grow up already.
Lehman, just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you think they should not be allowed to say those things.
Lehman said
'Yes, there are access problems, but only for a small percentage. That can be fixed or helped by small measures (and probably will, as the public option is pretty much dead). The case for spending trillions to helped a small percentage of people can't be made with a straight face.'
-----------------------------------
SO you are happy with the health system as is?? You think its fine that insurance companies can just pull the plug on someones policy because of a pre existing condition? You think its fine that an American can be bankrupted by an insurance company setting a limit on treatment spending in a year?
The public option was NEVER a major part of the deal. If progressives really wanted to get into major health care reform you would have seen a push to a single payer scheme very quickly. That you didn't shows were progressive priorities have been- insurance reform. A public option would help lower costs and spread access to coverage. But its not the be all and end all, and was only such to those liberals who wanted a symbolic victory rather than realistic, congressional vote getting reform.
I can't believe how anti-free speech all you progressives are. Just because somone disagrees with you doesn't make them a racist fool.
:rolleyes: Absolutely no one in this thread has made anything resembling this assertion. This is a textbook example of race-baiting.
His stupidity (cia interrogators being investigated and colsing GTMO) has not borne any bad results (yet). His economic policies have.
Gee, I guess you'll have to call up the Wall Street Journal and tell them that - they keep printing these lying tickers showing the stock market going up day after day.
His health care policies , as nebulous as they are, are wasteful ad would destroy what is great baout our health care system: that is is simply the best and the most efficient at getting results for the patinet.
Please state what evidence you have drawn upon to make this assertion. Last I checked, the United States health care system was one of the LEAST cost-efficient on the planet.
The case for spending trillions to helped a small percentage of people can't be made with a straight face.
:rolleyes: It's a good thing no one has made that case, then.
And in answer to where we fiscal conservatives were when Bush was president, we we against his wasteful spending also, but Obama makes Bush seem like a fiscal conservative with his pork-u-lous bill
The TARP bill alone was about as large as the stimulus bill, and that doesn't even count the 150 billion Bush spent on tax rebates at the beginning of 2008, nor the 250 billion he earmarked for the Housing and Economic Recovery Act. And then the stock market crashed anyway.
Oh but wait, I forgot, we're living in the Republican fantasy world, where time begins in January 2009 with the inauguration of Barack Obama and all problems past, present, and future are his fault.
The 600K - 1M people who attended the 'Tea Party' rally on 09/12 could not have been all Ron Paul supporters. Probably 10-15% were people who were Obama supporters who have become disillusioned with the rest being the typical Fox crowd (60%) and Ron Paul supporters (25-30%).
Now, everyone expected their taxes to rise after the 2008 election and taxes, while not low historically, are lower than most of the past 50 years with the exception of the 1986-1992 timeframe. However, if deep spending cuts do not materialize when the tax increases come, 2015 will be a mirror image of this year with 55-60 R Senators, 235-240 R House members and a R President. People are willing to sacrifice if it is shared but if it is not and the unions get another sweetheart deal after GM .. well ..
I'm going to wisely stay away from Lehman's comment; being a political strategist by trade, the first thing you learn is not to engage the supreme whack jobs. For anyone who actually chooses to be that factually incorrect because said falsehoods already fit their preconceived notions, anything you say pretty much gets interpreted as a personal insult, and they then spew more truly random vitriol. If you ignore them and turn to engage people who are actually arguing from a position of rationality, you can at least change some minds with the facts... even if it's only the onlookers who are disgusted by the irritating toddler waving his arms and frothing at the mouth behind you.
However, Jeff, you have made what I can only describe as a hysterical faux pas; "I don't know how precise this is," followed by a link to pajamasmedia? The article in question had several laughable factual errors, a couple of even better mathematical ones, uses questionable sources, and uses legitimate ones in a questionable manner. It is going with the new "correct" number that the Teapartiers have given themselves, approximately 850,000 - for which this article, like all others, fails to make a case. The reason for this? Because it's Pajamas Media. This is the organization that thought hiring Joe the Plumber as a war correspondent was somehow a good idea...
Do you, perhaps, have a legitimate source for us?
Heard about your website on Beyond The Headlines yesterday and decided to drop by and check it out.
Appreciate it if you'd come and drop by on my website; I write a few opinion articles from time to time.
I think it would be a mistake to classify the majority of tea party people as part of the Ron Paul followers. To some degree I think you are partly correct that there are similarities, but Ron Paul is on the fanatical fringe of what the Tea Parties are about.
Those rallies are about Freedom. The reason there is no particular theme coming from the signs and protesters is because each person is expressing which freedom they feel is being infringed upon. They are sick of the government intruding on their lives one way or another. They do not like the myriad of policies that threaten their way of life. They don't like the PC world we now have to live in and they don't like the fact that politicians can intrude on that way of life.
There is a reason Libertarians are growing as a party and why Ron Paul is popular. The Tea Parties are starting to pull in the same kinds of sentiments, except it is people that are more moderate. I don't know if it will happen, but there may come a tipping point in which the Tea Party crowd can get behind a single moderate voice that can direct it.
jon said
'There is a reason Libertarians are growing as a party and why Ron Paul is popular. The Tea Parties are starting to pull in the same kinds of sentiments, except it is people that are more moderate. I don't know if it will happen, but there may come a tipping point in which the Tea Party crowd can get behind a single moderate voice that can direct it.'
-----------------------------------
Go look at the signs these people were carrying, and reconsider whether or not you think these people were 'moderate'.
I was at the protest in DC. Tom's overall analysis is pretty spot-on. The overwhelming majority of protesters were white, middle to upper-middle class people who probably would have been big supporters of Ron Paul. I wish I could have linked up with the 538 team before the rally because I was there for a while would gladly have done some polling.
Outside of the numerous Hitler, Stalin, and socialism/communism memes that I witnessed, there were actually A LOT of anti-abortion protesters. While there were TONS of the abused "Don't Tread On Me" flags, there were just as many stickers being worn that said "Abortion is not Health Care."
The main issue surrounding this ridiculous protest is the narrow point of view represented. I would say that a large majority of the attendees of the protest truly belong to a class of Southern ultra-conservatives. This class represents the extremely narrow-minded views on God, Guns, and Gays (I'm from the South, I promise this is true), where these people have really never experienced "diversity" at all.
At the exact same time as the protests were going on, the National Council of Negro Women was hosting the Black Family Reunion Celebration in the middle of the National Mall. The comments I overheard when leaving the NCNW Reunion to go see what was happening at the protest were beyond absurd. The racial slurs were endless, and really just the sneers that I saw on peoples' faces were pretty descriptive of how they felt about the celebration. The endless Shep Fairey posters of Pres. Obama with "Don't Tax Me Bro'" at the bottom were plentiful and at least from my point of view, quite upsetting as I could only image how attendees of the Reunion felt seeing them.
The whole event felt extremely scripted and staged. It was really quite obvious that those who showed up had never actually taken part in a protest in a very long time, if ever- probably because they stay at home too often watching Fox News, yelling at the screen when they see Pres. Obama. At one point I heard a speaker talk about how this whole protest was brought about by about 50 people posting the idea for it on Twitter. I had to hold back laughter at this point because it was blatantly obvious that these people are VERY desperate to come across as a true grass-roots organization.
While I definitely do not believe that the tea-baggers arguments should be ignored, I sincerely wish they would do a bit more homework before showing up. The Socialist/Communist/Nazism meme is getting really old.
"The reason there is no particular theme coming from the signs and protesters is because each person is expressing which freedom they feel is being infringed upon."
No. It's because it's more of an anti-Obama rally then any particular issue.
Jeff said...
On the protest. I don't know how precise this is, but it seems to makea good case that the protest was a heck of a lot bigger than 70,000.
Pajamas Media?!?! The same Pajamas Media that employed Joe the fucking Plumber as Middle East correspondent and sent him across to Israel? MONUMENTAL EPIC FAIL!!!
NJ_Moderate said...
People are willing to sacrifice if it is shared but if it is not and the unions get another sweetheart deal after GM .. well ..
Unions get another sweetheart deal?!? You knob, they got shafted. Moderate my ARSE!!
Honestly, have you two been eating retard sandwiches?
I guess in a sense the Tea Partiers haven't found a voice to lead them, but they have found Obama to be the head of everything they are worried about. He's jumped on the national stage and has pushed all the things these people do not want, all at the same time. He's hit on every single hot button, Socialism/Abortion/Guns/Environment/National Defense/Limited Government. While doing so he activated everyone that is passionate about those issues. Individually, the single issue people wouldn't be a very large group. Together, they are joining into a snowball at the top of the hill.
markymark, I do think they are more moderate as a group. Sure there are still going to be fringe people that are going to have some very controversial signs and feelings. And of course the media is going to find the more outrageous ones. They are in the business of entertainment. However, this particular movement is reaching out to those people who have vague feelings of wanting the government to back off. It is mobilizing people who wouldn't normally be activists. Change is a scary thing for everyone and this amount of change this fast is scaring them. People are already worried about their jobs, money, and the economy. They want stability not more upheaval.
BREAKING: US Physicians Enthusiastically Support Public Option
In a survey of 6,000 US physicians conducted in April of this year, which covered physicians across all geographic regions of the US and all specialties, researchers found overwhelming support for the public option offered as a CHOICE along side private health insurance plans in health insurance reform.
63% overall support public option and 10% support single payer = 73% support public plan
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/14/144540/688
Watch the MSM, especially cable news, blatantly ignore this. If anything, they'll likely spin it as the silver bullet to kill a public plan.
Nate:
I would suggest if you want information about the 9/12 march on Washington, simply surf the conservative blogosphere starting with the 9/12 organizing sites.
There are links to dozens of articles from local newspapers across the country reporting on the preparations and interviewing the participants. Most of the articles are from heartland papers, not from coastal states by DC. However, that does not mean that there were not a great deal of Tea Party protestors from the region around DC and the local Dem media simply did not cover it.
There are literally hundreds - or more likely thousands - of local Tea Party organizations around the country (we have one in our mountain county) and dozens have their own websites. Tea Party protest information is primarily disseminated over the internet. The conservatives belatedly took a page out of the Howard Dean and Obama play books. Go to these sites if you want to find out what this movement is all about. We Tea Partiers are very open about our grievances.
If you want a shorthand to understand the Tea Party movement, think of a combination of the Jarvis property tax revolt in CA, the Reagan revolutionaries, the Perot anti-deficit campaign that drained a third of the Reagan coalition away from George I and the 1994 election. Small government libertarians, fiscal conservatives and military hawks dominate the movement.
There do not appear to many single issue values voters. This is more the libertarian leaning wing of Reagan conservative coalition. Live free or die flags are plentiful at Tea Party protests.
There are a disproportionate number of families with kids in tow, military vets and the elderly who were raising their kids during the Reagan Administration.
These folks are middle and working class. There are very few professionals like myself and not too many truly poor.
What I found fascinating and encouraging is the recurring assertion of many of these folks that they had never been involved in political activism before in their lives.
I hope this helps.
The 600K - 1M people who attended the 'Tea Party' rally on 09/12 could not have been all Ron Paul supporters.
Just because you state this attendance figure as accepted fact does not make it so. But certainly feel free to delude yourself that your views have this much support, it worked so well in the last election didn't it?
Nice misdirect and good job at hedging what you say to dance around a lie. I don't think his response was so much about what we've seen in this thread or on this site even
:rolleyes: I'll simply quote you from Thursday, changing the referenced name: "it was ... aimed at [Lehman]. Not at you. Leave it up to him to either respond or ignore me. Why do you feel the need to make unsolicited replies?
I guess because you are obsessed with me."
"you've lost all credibility to ever speak with any authority about me exhibiting "obsessive" behavior towards 538 or any of the commenters that come here after the way you whorishly drool over every piece of keystroke fodder I leave behind. I don't know how you're not bleeding to death after getting bludgeoned by such irony."
Hold on, let me get you some Band-Aids - you'll need them after an irony-bludgeoning like that.
"And for some, believe it or not, Obama personifies an amalgam of beliefs that is the antithesis of what many of these people stand for in every way, shape, and form, so I don't really see what the problem is here."
Yeah, like he's a facist, communist, muslim who hates white people.
Jon said "Those rallies are about Freedom. The reason there is no particular theme coming from the signs and protesters is because each person is expressing which freedom they feel is being infringed upon. They are sick of the government intruding on their lives one way or another."
I wondered: How they feel about gay marriage?
Jon said next: "They do not like the myriad of policies that threaten their way of life. They don't like the PC world we now have to live in and they don't like the fact that politicians can intrude on that way of life."
Then I wondered: Who does freedom apply too?
Then bkb in DC said: "The overwhelming majority of protesters were white, middle to upper-middle class people"
And my question was answered.
Bart DePalma said...
I would suggest if you want information about the 9/12 march on Washington, simply surf the conservative blogosphere starting with the 9/12 organizing sites.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No BDP, would suggest you, as a Rep, surf the conservative blogosphere.
happy trails
if you want information about the 9/12 march on Washington, simply surf the conservative blogosphere starting with the 9/12 organizing sites.
lol... I'm not sure I've ever seen a more succinct summation of the "echo chamber" effect.
Just where does Dick Armey's FreedomWorks fit in, then? They coordinated this "rally for freedom".
Nice theory, but this has got it backwards. This is the core of the GOP COOPTING the Paulites. Fox, Limbaugh and the rest are in cahoots. The same old talking-points wurlitzer, however it works. Is Grover Norquist still holding his breakfasts? (Now THERE'S a good investigative piece.) They're looking to bring cohesion back to 2008's fractured base.
The rhetoric is disposable. It's just picking up on the anti-gov theme more clearly these days because it's easier to believe 1) the bailout is a partisan issue, and 2) Obama is the author of the bailout, not the Bush appointees.
bkb in dc said...
The whole event felt extremely scripted and staged. It was really quite obvious that those who showed up had never actually taken part in a protest in a very long time, if ever... At one point I heard a speaker talk about how this whole protest was brought about by about 50 people posting the idea for it on Twitter. I had to hold back laughter at this point because it was blatantly obvious that these people are VERY desperate to come across as a true grass-roots organization.
bkb, can't you see the contradictions in your observations here? Supposedly this "scripted" astroturf demonstration was made up nearly entirely of folks who "had never actually taken part in a protest in a very long time, if ever" and were carrying hand written signs.
Isn't a grassroots movement one that is made up regular folks who have not previously engaged in political activism but have now taken to the streets on their own dime to protest government actions with which they disagree?
The rank amateur Tea Party protestors you observed stand in stark contrast to the astroturf paid, given talking points, supplied signs and bused in by paid professional protest coordinators from the SEIU, ACORN or the Obama campaign turned into Organizing for America.
The Tea Party movement is the epitome of grass roots.
@Boing:
If you'd asked me "Whom did you support in last year's Republican primaries?" I'd have replied "It's 'who' not 'whom', anyone who wasn't a pompous ass stopped using the accusative in about 1873".
Yeah, I agree. That's why I stopped using "whom." Of course, I only recently (roughly 2000-03) stopped using "whom." Since that was way after 1873, by your definition, that makes me a pompous ass. I don't disagree with that assessment.
Pompous ass that I am, I enjoy feeling superior to those who use "whom" when it's the subject, not the accusative. Ex: "Whom do you believe will win this election?" There's little more deserving of ridicule than a pompous ass who is wrong.
I saw that, Mule. Is Lehman yours?
Mark,
I think you are mistaking the Tea Party people with social conservatives. Many conservatives and a large number of Tea Party goers aren't active based on social conservative issues. They only care that those issues are legislated in the local governments and not through the federal government. This movement is against growing federal government power and their intervention in peoples lives and the lack of representation they feel they are getting.
Unfortunately BDP, as the truth has been mentioned ad nauseam, astro turf or not these folk did not vote for Obama, will never, ever vote for Obama, hence, therefore, ergo preaching to the choir!
Although it appeared to be a very nice day in Washington and getting out doors and breathing the fresh air is good for one's well being, soooo not a total loss. ;)
take care
@Mule Rider:
"Please state what evidence you have drawn upon to make this assertion. Last I checked, the United States health care system was one of the LEAST cost-efficient on the planet."
All he said was that we would be spending trillions to make sure a small percentage of the population has better access.
No, Mulie, that is not "all he said." Reread Lehman's post, if you're having trouble.
This is why I generally don't read you. You either willfully misread that which you respond to, or you have a terrible problem with reading comprehension. In either case, you have little or nothing to offer, and you're just not worth my time.
By the BTW, it's pointless to respond to Lehman. He's clearly a drive-by poster.
The visceral hatred that these Americans show toward the President of the United States is absolutely frightening.
I can understand disagreements on policy. Wariness of Obama's methods and goals and even the cynical radio show hosts who use him to boost their ratings. However the personal attacks and seething air of hatred, while calling themselves "patriots," makes me physically ill. I sincerely hope that they double the man's Secret Service protection because these people are truly sick.
Oh no you don't, asshole. You made it clear that the rules you play by call for open season on any comment to anybody.
lol... and I'm sure you were just about to cite where I said that.
I notice you didn't have an answer/defense to anything I said, so I guess you're short on logic to back you up today.
lol... Your playground argument tactics are absolutely adorable. I know you are, but what am I?
I'm not sure why being white and middle class is an interesting observation for these rallies. The majority of this country is white and middle class. It would seem to follow that demographic would be heavily represented in any issue that is as broad as what the Tea Parties represent.
I saw that, Mule. Is Lehman yours?
What did you see, exactly?
Good point, Jon, and we're still waiting for Mark's explanation of why he finds white middle class people so terrible
NU, I'm lost. Where are you seeing Mark saying that white middle class people are "awful" or "terrible", exactly?
Michael said...
The visceral hatred that these Americans show toward the President of the United States is absolutely frightening.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Although to be fair, many, many progressives hated/hate cheney/bush although I was not one of them and this hatred, of course, never appeared to be of a life threatening meme as it is against Obama, the first African/American to be president in a country w/a notorious racial history.
Bush's hatred was like nixon and Dem LBJ ie Hey, hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today! which begs the question, can anyone ever perceive of conservatives protesting in the streets against cheney/bush re: the Iraq war, a definite non-starter as Reps fall in line like lemmings to the sea ...
carry on
p.s. liberals will protest in the streets against their own party in a heartbeat, conservatives, not so much er never!
btw, the liberal Vietnam war protest caused LBJ not to seek re-election in 1968. Now that's a protest!
'nuf said!
FYI
Mule first posted his 7:02PM comment at 7:00PM as Mark Jordan.
Persuter-- Go back and read Mark's comments. His sole basis for arguing with Jon's views was that they were the views of the "white middle class to upper middle class."
Even assuming that this is even a vaguely reasonable summation of Mark's argument, I still fail to see where Mark said they were "awful" or "terrible".
Billo just said the Washington "protest" totaled (((75,000))).
We report, you decide!
again, 'nuf said!
I actually didn't state that white middle class people were terrible. I didn't even imply that. Rather, I actually implied that when this group seems to talk about freedom they are generally talking about freedom for themselves, not necessarily freedom for people unlike themselves.
This isn't necessarily terrible. People have been protecting what they perceive as their ingroup for a long time. (to be clear it can become terrible, see e.g. genocide, but that is not what I am suggesting).
So since I never said or implied the white middle class was terrible I think we can move on to Jon's point, who appeared to understand mine...
We don't disagree that "This movement is against growing federal government power and their intervention in peoples lives and the lack of representation they feel they are getting."
However, I don't totally agree that the Tea Party people aren't concerned with social conservative issues (e.g. see abortion comment from above). But lets go with they aren't for the sake of argument. It doesn't mean that the logic of Tea Party people (a lack of gov't intervention/increased freedom) doesn't (or shouldn't) apply to social issues. If it doesn't it suggests that one person's freedom is more important than another person's freedom.
Further, I am confused about why a state government limiting (or not) freedom would be ok, but not the federal government? If this would be ok, then the movement seems more about state rights etc, than about freedom. (Unless its freedom for states and not individuals specifically).
Dude, what the hell? You want me to "cite" previous threads on 538 as proof? Is that what it comes to? I can think of a half dozen times in the last week where you've said something to me unsolicited.
lol... I don't believe I've ever seen someone so shocked when asked for evidence of their assertions. Yes, Mule, I want you to cite where I said what you claim I said.
You're the one reducing it to playground antics.
LOL! Well I know you are, Mule, but what am I?
The other day you butted in to a conversation that didn't involve you, and I said to piss off unless I was speaking to you
That is a flat-out lie. I invite you to cite the post where I "butted in to a conversation that didn't involve" me and you told me to piss off.
If you cannot (and you can't, it was shiloh who butted in), I think it's pretty clear at this point that you are nothing but a troll. You make a post calling me by name an "obsessive asshat troll", then tell me that I'm butting in when I respond to the post. Then, when you clearly butt into a conversation, telling me what some OTHER guy really meant, you have the temerity to tell me that you're "just catching up to [my] mode of attack".
let's go back to you ignoring what I say, and I ignoring what you say
Oh PLEASE, let's do that. You're the one who butted into this conversation - you're welcome to find your own way out of it.
NU'69. I feel that we have different definitions of "imply" and "stated." Nonetheless I push on.
I asked two questions in my post and used others' comments to answer them. The overarching question was "How do they feel about gay marriage?" I asked this question because an argument can be made that by denying marriage benefits to gays one is denying them the freedom to marry who they choose. Thus, if you promote increasing freedom then you should promote gay marriage.
Then I quoted Jon's summation of the movement's feelings and I asked who the freedom (promoted by this movement) applied to.
Using another commenter's statement about the demographic make-up of the protest I implied that the protesters thought freedom applied only to that demographic group. Or more generally, people they perceive to be like themselves.
Obviously this may not be the case and could be debated. So could the idea that gay marriage is an increase in freedom. I personally think that the movement is especially concerned about their own freedom and not people they consider as outsiders. I also personally think gay marriage is an increase in freedom.
So, to be absolutely clear. In this specific comment I have made two specific points.
1) I think the movement is concerned with their own freedom and not perceived outsiders' freedom
2) I think gay marriage is an increase in freedom
I implied one point (which I will now make specific, for a total of 3 specific points)
3) I think because of point #2 above a movement about freedom that does not support gay marriage as well is inconsistent at best.
Now, throughout all of this I did imply another point, but we'll see if you catch that.
Some of you are wasting time trying to rationalize with irrational people. People will frequently ignore facts that are in opposition to preconceived notions, and certainly the Tea Partiers are guilty of that.
As for their participation in this discussion, we can question their motives ad infinitum, be they here to make themselves feel more important by launching insults at those they disagree with (Mule Rider and Lehman, who manage to start with insults and then get apopleptic when others question them), push the same debunked linesrepeatedly (Bart de Palma, who can't never reads far before launching into his pre-planned lecture about how we should all stick only to conservative nes), or to have asinine arguments about semantics (Boing); however, we should give them credit for being here at all. A Pew Study shows that most people stick to news sources that are more likely to agree with what they already believe, rather than challenge it. However, a willingness to challenge one's own perceptions is based upon political persuasion. While liberals will frequent the Huffington Post, less than a third of us will read the Drudge Report or watch Fox. However, among conservatives, only about four percent will read liberal sources. Thus, we consider most of what Tea Partiers say to be nonsensical because most of us haven't read what they have. But when one of us talks about something that we already have ample evidence of, a conservative has no trouble calling us a liar because almost none of them have ever been exposed to what we consider to be the facts.
There is also basic neuroscience showing conservative minds are, by nature, both more emotional and less flexible... the latter of which is both a strength and weakness politically; When we disagree with them, they take it personally and go on the attack. However, because the liberal mind is more likely to question its own beliefs, we find ourselves automatically going up against someone who is stronger in their convictions - even when those convictions aren't based on anything remotely resembling reality. Everything about their viewpoints is absolutist; black vs. white, good vs. evil, Republican vs. Democrat, liberal vs. conservative, etc. That the world is made of grays is an inconvenience that is better ignored. This is also the “why” behind shiloh's observation that Republicans are less likely to protest their own party, and Mule Rider's belief that other peoples' behavior is deplorable, yet his is always acceptable (because trading insults in only childish if the liberal does it...).
As for protesters (of all political persuasions): Protest is the purest form of democratic expression... and the least effective. Mob mentality, by its nature, tends to be so vitriolic that most elected officials on their own side are doing everything they can to avoid being associated with them, and the opposition is given plenty of ammunition.
The Tea Partiers actually have rather a lot in common with many liberal protesters; They are frequently disconnected from the political process, they are too irrational to actually accomplish anything, and they have little ability to focus ("Save the Whales" and "Legalize It" signs are just as common at anti-war protests as anti-abortion signs are at Tea Parties). Liberal protesters are far less likely to resort to threats of violence, but their protests still have the potential to erupt into violence. Of course, we could argue all day about what the cause of that violence is (protesters themselves, fringe elements, third parties taking advantage of the distraction, police over-reaction, etc.), but the fact is that it does happen. This is why an over-whelming majority of Americans tend to have negative views of protesters, even on occasions when the majority are in favor of the same views.
IcarusPhoenix said...
(Bart de Palma, who can't never reads far before launching into his pre-planned lecture about how we should all stick only to conservative nes)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perfect! Too funny!
but, but, but BDP is consistent and all I ask for is consistency. ;)
shiloh said...
Unfortunately BDP, as the truth has been mentioned ad nauseam, astro turf or not these folk did not vote for Obama, will never, ever vote for Obama, hence, therefore, ergo preaching to the choir!
Based on the conversations I have had with these folks and their publicly expressed views, I can't imagine very many if any Tea Party protestors voted for Obama.
The more interesting questions are whether the Tea Party protestors and the millions like them were not voting in 2006 and 2008 or went with the Blue Dogs campaigning as fiscal conservatives. Remember that self identified conservatives dropped as a percentage of those who cast ballots in 2006 and 2008, while Blue Dogs won in nearly 40 districts that went McCain in 2008.
If the answer to the former question is yes, then it is very likely 2010 will see the pissed off return of a large absent voting block.
If the answer to the latter question is yes, the basis for the Blue Dogs' narrow margins in traditionally Red districts is in danger of switching parties in 2010.
In low turn out off year elections, large pissed off groups of voters can dominate an election.
Yeah, surf the conservative blogoshpere for a coherent argument about the rally. BAAAHAAA!!!
Aren't you about tired of wishful thinking, Bert, sorry, Bart?
ONCE AGAIN: Please, for the sake of Jesus, look closely at the photos from Tehran and Obama Inaugural and tell me that the same density of humanity is in the shots of the TeaBagger's Picnic.
Denial is not a river in Egypt.
BDP, let me sum up your last post in a nutshell, as Peggy Noonan said quite eloquently, cheney/bush destroyed the Rep party!
know it, live it, believe it!
take care, blessings
p.s. and palin, Perry, Steele, Sanford, Huckabee, mittens, Gingrich, Bachmann, Blackburn, Vitter, Ensign, Joe Wilson, Jindal, Limbaugh, Billo, Hannity, Malkin, Coultergesit, Beck, Dobbs, Boortz, Prager, Larson, Crowley, Ingraham, Savage, etc. are carrying on cheney/bush's legacy quite nicely indeed!
ciao
Surf the conservative blogoshere for a lot of incoherence and wishful thinking, Bart, please, then bring us more concocted myths about 2 million magically sprouting out of 70,000! It's like... magic.
I'm still rolling in laughter over the Promise Keepers photo debacle. In truth, the DENSITY OF THE CROWD looked like Fourth of July at Memorial Park in CS. OUch, that's gotta HURT! Maybe the 1812 Overture with the Ft. Carson artillery guns will sooth your torn soul.
Mispelling the name of the Natl. Park Ranger from the Obama Inaugural was almost as comical. Keep the wishful thinking up, maybe you'll warp the fabric of the time/space continuum and make it actually happen in your bizarro world.
Icarus, I'm not trying to be rational with Bart or DonkeyGaper, I'm rubbing their noses in their own shit.
2 MILLION, Yeah, it wuz 2 Million! I say so! America conservative! I say so! Me Me ME ME ME ME!
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/how-big-was-the-crowd/
There's some more denial... same Promise Keeper's photo too! Imagine that?!!
Since President Obama's inauguration, Fox News network executives have made their intentions clear. In clips aired on the March 23 broadcast of NPR's Media Circus, vice president for programming Bill Shine referred to the network as the "voice of opposition." And chief executive officer Roger Ailes reportedly said of the new administration: "I see this as the Alamo," adding, "If I just had somebody who was willing to sit on the other side of the camera until the last shot is fired, we'd be fine."
On air, the network's agenda is even clearer. Fox News personalities and hosts have promoted and encouraged viewers to "join" tea party protests and town hall meetings. They have implored viewers to call Congress and the White House to protest Democratic policies. And they have declared "Victory!" when Democratic legislation has been stalled.
Most recently, Beck and Fox News have repeatedly promoted Beck's "9-12 Project," which, in addition to encouraging local events, is organizing a September 12 march on Washington, which Fox News will broadcast live.
Beck's 9-12 Project "a place" for people looking to take back their country. Beck started the 9-12 Project, which describes itself as "a place for you and other like-minded Americans looking for direction in taking back the control of our country." Beck's FoxNews.com website, under a section titled, "TAKE ACTION: GET INVOLVED!" states of the 9-12 Project: "Check out Beck's new Web site for updates on the stories and people who prove that your values and principles are still very much alive."
9-12 Project organizes events across country. The conservative project frequently organizes events around the country. For instance, members of the 9-12 Project have helped organize tea parties, and Beck's 9-12 website is working with others for a "March on Washington," among other local events, on September 12. Beck will participate in a 9-12 "March on Washington" by broadcasting live from 1 to 3 p.m. ET on Fox News.
Beck: "9-12 Projects and rallies happening all over." In recent months, Beck has frequently touted the effectiveness of his 9-12 Project in organizing followers. On August 12, for instance, Beck described the 9-12 Project as giving "ourselves an outlet of voice to connect, because you needed to community organize. ... Well, you have already done it. There are 9-12 Projects and rallies happening all over. The biggest one seems to be in Washington, D.C., on September 12."
Beck: "We started that. Millions all involved across the country and the 9-12 project and other organizations like it." On August 27, Beck said of the 9-12 Project:
BECK: Now, the second part of this. A few months ago, I told you, you got to know you're not alone. You've got to know. You got to unite. Talk to people. Make sure you know you're not alone, through the 9-12 Project. We started that. Millions all involved across the country and the 9-12 Project and other organizations like it. I knew we needed to connect with one another.
Beck: "On 9-12, I hope to see you in Washington. I will make sure you're seen all over the country." On August 28, Beck described the 9-12 march on Washington as something "worth standing up for" and told viewers, "I hope to see you in Washington. I will make sure you're seen all over the country."
Beck: Will we find people "to stand for our country?" Discussing his participation in the 9-12 march, Beck asked viewers: "Will we find another 50 men or women willing to stand for our country and the republic? On the Fox News Channel, you can find out all of the details at the 912Project.com."
9-12 march website: Beck "really helping our numbers grow!" A post on the 9-12 march website 912dc.org states, "The recent coverage by Glenn Beck is really helping our numbers grow!" The website frequently mentions Beck's promotion of the march and excerpted a September 8 USA Today article which reported that the march has been "[e]ncouraged by conservative commentators such as Fox's Glenn Beck."
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you that fixednoise has an agenda.
Oh the humanity!
... and the truth shall set you free!
Behold the media's glaring double standard. Today, the Post puts the "tens of thousands" of Obama-hating tea bagger protesters on A1; makes it the lead story as a matter of fact.
Back in 2002, when more than 100,000 anti-war protesters gathered in the nation's capitol to protest the Bush administration, the same WashPost did its best to ignore them:
The Washington Post put the story not on the front page, but in the Metro section with, as the paper's ombudsman later lamented, "a couple of ho-hum photographs that captured the protest's fringe elements."
This simply proves again that when right-wing (and mostly white) conservatives get angry, it's big news. When liberals get angry, it's just annoying.
"Nope. I don't need the extreme caricatures to dislike him. I'm simply against him because he's too pro-social democracy, too lax on abortion, poorly handling the wars/occupation in the Middle East, has a sketchy past record on gun control (i.e. too strongly in favor of it), has been playing the role of groveling apologist to Europe, recklessly spending money on bailouts, stimulus, and likely health care reform, and comes across as twice as much of a pompous ass as his idiot predecessor from Texas."
You're missing the point. I wasn't describing you. I was describing the protesters. My buddy was there and he reported seeing more Obama = Hitler/Stalin/Muslim/Take your pick, then signs regarding actual policy differences they have. Maybe you're intelligent enough to actually know why you don't like the guy, but many of them do resort to extreme caricatures and labels Glenn Beck and Fox have instilled in their mind.
This is all very interesting - well, most of it is - but I do think the racist angle should be given more consideration. The fact that Barack Obama is a black man is what really sets off a lot of these people (even those who would indignantly deny being racist - and might even believe that).
I've heard whites worry that Obama only wants to support "his people." And, of course, the GOP has regularly used racism to ratchet up the anger of white conservatives - wealthy blacks picking up their welfare checks in their Cadillacs, that sort of thing (you don't see ads about wealthy white farmers picking up their farm subsidy checks in their SUVs). An underlying theme to the anger about social programs is the widespread belief that they're abused by minorities. All the taxes of "hardworking Americans, white Americans" go to support black people, right? Yup, that even works among white Democrats, to some extent.
If Obama were white, there'd be absolutely no question that he was the legitimate president. There'd be no "birthers," no loony accusations that he's a foreigner, a terrorist, an Arab, a Muslim, etc.
Oh, sure, if he were a white Democrat, there'd still be complaints. The GOP would still be doing everything it could to sabotage his presidency. But these extremes of loony behavior and dangerous talk are set off by the president not being "one of us" (i.e. not being white). These people have heard for years the warning that whites would become a minority in America (part of the reason they go apeshit about immigration), and now Obama seems to be the perfect symbol of that.
It's hard for me to see Barack Obama as a scary black man, but his election really was a momentous event. The race issue is what brings these varied protesters together. That's why they're mainly just "anti-Obama." It might be subconscious, but IMHO, that's where the fear and the rage are coming from. They'd still be sitting at home if Obama were white. He'd be just another president they voted against, not the personification of all their fears.
@Bart DePalma
Realistically, the argument over whether the 9/12 rally was grass roots or not is menial and fruitless. I did not intend for that point to be the central tenet of my post. If you wish, please feel free to discuss the issues that are central to my argument, i.e. how ultra-conservatism of the type we see today contributes to societal narrow-mindedness (a la IcarusPhoenix's post and my strong agreement with his thoughts). I assure you the argument will be much more enlightening when we discuss how this brand of conservatism strives to keep things the way they were in the early 80's vs. modern day realities that cannot be ignored. For example, how ridiculous it is that one of my good friends cannot get married because he loves another man.
loner caught a sock puppet. Good eyes.
This afternoon in his town hall, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) said he is “unalterably opposed” to using the budget reconciliation process to pass health care reform. “It would be a drastic change in the way that the United States Senate does business.” Fox News’ Shep Smith fact-checked McCain’s claim immediately upon the conclusion of the town hall. “The truth is Republicans used this in 2001, 2003, and 2005 to pass then-President George Bush’s tax cuts,” Smith said. Armed with some research, he then reported this quote from Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH):
“Reconciliation is a rule of the Senate (that) has been used before for purposes exactly like this on numerous occasions.” … “Is there something wrong with majority rules? I don’t think so. … The point, of course, is this: If you have 51 votes for your position, you win.”
Smith concluded that if Democrats “were to take health care and put it in under reconciliation, they could do that.”
Upper middle class whites aren't inherently racist. Upper middle class whites who protest with anti-Hispanic and anti-black posters are racist, though.
Okay Nate, guys, help me out here. I've recently encountered a whole new brand of political crazy, in the form of some old geezer named Lyndon LaRouche, whose followers here on campus seem to be even more zombielike than Paultards. Frankly, they frighten me. And they talk an awful lot like Glenn Beck.
Would you say these guys are Paultards-who kinda remind me of anarchists, except that they like money-or LaRouche Zombies-who remind me of what it would be like to get really high on LSD with the John Birch Society?
The only thing more "out there" than Joe Wilson's disrespectful display during the president's speech to Congress on health care is Representative Wilson's all over the place take on two of the largest government-run health systems there are -- the ones that benefit our troops and veterans.
Wilson has railed against health care reform, warning that offering more choice to people amounts to a government takeover of health insurance. To him, it's an evil that has to be defeated.
Yet, at the same time, Wilson hasn't said whether he's opted into TRICARE for Life. The completely government-run health insurance system for certain military retirees is available to Wilson, as he's a 31-year Guard and Reserve veteran (though he joined after getting out of Vietnam). If he's not, of course, then he's taking insurance from the government-run pool offered to Congressmen. Then, there's all of our active duty service members who are on TRICARE -- stuck in an evil government system that must have turned them into Communists by now.
Wilson has saved them and gotten them out of TRICARE, right?
Right?
"TRICARE provides world class health care," said Wilson in a press release. "I believe TRICARE is one part of our health care system that's working."
What?! Joe Wilson is all for this horrible fascist system of government care?
Well, maybe not. Despite being against government health care, and then paying lip service about the awesomeness of government-run TRICARE, Wilson's voted to underfund it.
In 2007, Wilson was against $1.9 billion for military medical care (including funds for Walter Reed) and in 2005 voted against expanding TRICARE eligibility for our Guard and Reserve components, despite the fact that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan has them fighting alongside the active component more than ever before.
OK, so Wilson suffers from split personality disorder when it comes to government health care for troops. But, he must be against the Department of Veterans Affairs, another bastion of Marxist thought, turning generations of American veterans into pinkos.
"With a growing number of servicemembers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, we must go to great measures to ensure our veterans receive the best care possible. That means greater oversight of the facilities, hospitals, and clinics that care for our veterans. They deserve access to the highest quality medical technology and a health care system that is responsive to their immediate and long-term needs. Their sacrifice and commitment to this nation deserves nothing less," said Wilson on his campaign site.
Gosh, that sounds just like Hitler, doesn't it?
Oh, but thank heaven, Joe Wilson voted repeatedly to cut veterans care, and save us from modern day Leninism. He voted for a $14 million cut in 2003, against $1.6 billion for the agency in 2005, $2.9 billion again in 2005, for a $13.5 billion cut in 2005, against $1.8 billion in 2003, and millions and millions more.
Maybe it's asking too much for me to ask that Joe Wilson think like a rational human being, but I'll ask anyway. He needs to decide whether offering citizens the option of getting the same kind of coverage we in the military get is evil or not evil.
If it's not -- if military and veterans government-run insurance and care is not malevolent -- then he needs to stop his shouting and properly fund TRICARE and the VA, and let everyone have the option of getting a public insurance plan.
But, if government-run care and insurance really is wicked, then he needs to stop lying about how he feels about TRICARE and Veterans Care. He should tell the truth about why he voted against funding for those programs -- because he thinks troops and veterans should be left out in the cold and turned away in return for their service.
Until he's honest about his position on Veterans Care, Military Care, and the Public Option, I can only say this: Representative Wilson, YOU LIE.
Statler, you seriously have never heard of the LaRouchies? They're classic. Almost direct ancestors of the TeaBaggers.
Just encountered them for the first time, and man, they're fuckin nuts.
This is highly entertaining!
"Hearts & minds are moved by reasonable discourse"- Bill O.
Of course he uses the whole exerpt to attack NBC, but hey, it's Bill.
75,000 sayeth the Bill. He knows when the 9/12 goose hath been cooked. Bon apetit!
SNW wrote:
"I've recently encountered a whole new brand of political crazy, in the form of some old geezer named Lyndon LaRouche, whose followers here on campus seem to be even more zombielike than Paultards. Frankly, they frighten me."
They've been around since at least the early 80's: pro-drug prohibition, pro-military intervention, pro-nukes and chock full of conspiracy theories for every imaginable issue.
They found right away that they couldn't make it in the rigid structure of the GOP, so they became "Democrats" while espousing Republican philosophies.
They are scary. The LaRouchies are essentially a political cult. There is no allowable deviation from the "script", and the idea of independent opinions within the group is limited to "Is LaRouche completely right, or absolutely right?".
The hearings on medical marijuana legislation here in MN were attended by LaRouche supporters, who testified at length that allowing terminally ill people to have access to medical marijuana was a plot by George Soros, who controls the entire illegal drug trade in the U.S. When asked how allowing very ill people to grow their own dozen plants would enrich Soros, they basically answered that he would figure out some evil way to profit from it.
Pawlenty vetoed it, btw.
I've been to tea paries and town halls and didn't find one Ron Paulbot in the bunch.
Try and come up with something more than your "suspicion."
I can't believe you based an entire post on that!
"Tea Paries with a Ron Paulbot."
Sounds like Daffy Duck sword fighting with Marvin the Martian.
A few observations re the thesis that the Paulistas are the backbone of this tea bagging protest movement and that their activism could portend serious consequences for 2010:
1) A gross oversimplification to be sure, but today's Republican Party is an uneasy coalition of social conservatives and libertarians. They share a negative bond: hostility to government. It makes them a natural opposition rather than governing party.
2) The lack of faith in government tends to cause their best and brightest to eschew participation therein and find fulfillment in other pursuits.
3) The Paulistas are the direct descendents of the Perotistas. As Bush 41 will attest, any Republican crosses them at great peril. “Read my lips” was a bad political move but Bush could have survived his recantation most likely had he not shown disrespect for the Jeffersonian sentiments of the libertarian elements of his party, incarnate in the person of Ross Perot.
4) The United States, with Britain as role model, is in decline. We are failing to replace our population (especially among the educated and affluent) and increasingly dependent on foreign labor (whether within our borders or without). The public myths are increasingly challenged and even ridiculed. We know in our gut that our best days do not lie ahead.
5) With such a trend in place, governance becomes a thankless task and, far more so than the periodic cycle of “throwing the bums out.”
6) The extremely ambitious statist agenda of the current Democrat government virtually guarantees that a united and strident opposition will confront it in coming electoral cycles. The “intensity gap” is palpable.
7) While the thought that vulnerable blue dogs can be released from party discipline to be able to tell their constituents that they voted against statist positions (that would then, nevertheless, narrowly pass without their support), is not without merit, the public is becoming increasingly sophisticated about the machinations of Congress.
8) The policies espoused by the Congressional management are anathema to a very decisive majority in the blue dog districts. Anyone standing with Pelosi and her speakership may be tainted by that association NO MATTER HOW THEY VOTED ON ANY SPECIFIC ISSUE. Increasingly, individual Congressmen will suffer in the same manner as a British Parliamentary member will pay, no matter his individual qualities, when the Prime Minister and his policies are unpopular.
9) While a Republican party, united (if only in saying “no”) and fired up, will be reasonably projected to make gains, a cataclysmic change (a la 1994) will not rest with these teabaggers, who are overwhelmingly Republican or Republican leaning to begin with. It will only occur if one of the constituent elements in the Democratic coalition defects. The suggestion has been offered that seniors would be the logical candidate for such a defection. The suggestion is plausible because, after all attempts to dismiss as “scare tactics” the notion that seniors will be adversely affected by health care “reform” (at least as presently constituted), the real material interests of seniors are in jeopardy.
10) While it is possible that “reform” could yet take a different and less sinister form from the perspective of seniors, if it does not the only question will be whether the electoral impact will be felt prospectively in 2010 or retrospectively in 2012. Sooner or later “the chickens will come home to roost” when you diss an element of your electoral coalition. Looking ahead, it is Democrats, the “in” party with that predicament, not the “party of no.” It is so much easier to be united in just saying “no.”
Mike's America said...
I've been to tea paries and town halls and didn't find one Ron Paulbot in the bunch.
Try and come up with something more than your "suspicion."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anecdotal evidence, whether true or not, is never used re: stating/expressing conclusions ie they are relatively meaningless in political discussion.
So please return w/factual evidence anytime.
After the erroneous reports re: (1) million attending beck's klan meeting on Sat. when it was, at best, 75,000, I will take all opinions/anecdotal evidence from beck's sheep er trolls under advisement!
take care
Ron Paul has nothing to do with the Tea Baggers... to insinuate such an assumption is just absurd.
Ron Paul's movement was against Republicans. Republicans who have usurped their party in favor of social conservatism v. fiscal conservatism.
The Tea Baggers have nothing to do with fiscal conservatism. Their rhetoric and espoused lies have everything to do with their perceived social injustice in America. Their attempt in latent racism proves the point.
The so called leaders are all about the TAKING over of America by socialist, illegal immigrants, and other non whites (IE, Rush, Palin [real America], Beck [communist in Rockefeller Centre], and yes, you too Giuliani).
Ron Paul was strictly fiscal conservatism and states rights, as hypocritical as that might be, it is besides the point. Not my argument but theirs. Bush was seen as the usurper.
These current Tea Baggers, as minimal as they may be, are definitely the extreme social conservatives. Not fiscal conservatives. There is a difference.
These People Are The Tea Party Protesters.
Cincy Said...
The United States, with Britain as role model, is in decline. We are failing to replace our population (especially among the educated and affluent) and increasingly dependent on foreign labor (whether within our borders or without). The public myths are increasingly challenged and even ridiculed. We know in our gut that our best days do not lie ahead.
Really? Funny, last time I checked the population was increasing in the good ol'e U S of A. Maybe because it is increasing 3X-4X in non-white population v. white you think it is not replacing its population? Hmm? Are you showing your true COLORS?
As for the rest of your rant... I just took a dump and needed some more TP...
Fifi’s back!
And boy is Fifi mad! Today it’s “asshole”, tomorrow it’s “gut you like a fish!”
I wonder if his mommy knows he talks like that.
Bart De Barmy…
Don’t you ever leave the basement anymore?
Stat-Wall…
Ask those LaDouche-baggers their opinion of gay people. Talk about antediluvian.
And yes, Pragmatus... I don't know why we don't ever learn.
Don't make FIFI mad.
One never knows how many licks it takes...
Well, I guess once again, it is past the trolls' bedtime. That came from GROG himself. They have bedtimes. Goodnight to all fighting the good cause... Justice for All...
I was in Washington on Sunday, day after the tea baggers or whatever were in town. I was hanging around the capital so I saw a fair number of them and they didn't look like Paulites to me. These guys were all older then 40. Their dress and mannerism screamed redneck. They didn't have the Paulite arrogance.
Stadler---the LaRouchies were around touting the program in the freaking 1970's! You couldn't even get into a shopping mall (at least in parts of California) without hearing or seeing someone promoting Lyndon LaRouche.
Teabaggers seem more "Palin-ite" than "Paul-ite".
I can't take the tea partiers seriously for one reason alone: Torture.
My next statement is not a violation of Godwin's law because it is now well documented fact. The previous administration authorized the some of the very same torture techniques used by the gestapo (as well as North Korea, China, and Communist Russia). If tea partiers are so concerned about socialism, fascism, or whatever other lunacy they fear with such vitriol, why aren't they calling for the heads of those who have actually authorized torture (a tool of dictatorships) with even more?
Until the likes of Glen Beck, and this retarded 9/12 movement actually march with the same energy against the war criminals among us (the CIA inspector general report confirms that innocent civilians that they knew didn't have information were tortured) they absolutely deserve all the accusations of racism, nationalism, etc lobbed at them. Because if they truly are defenders of freedom, they shouldn't tolerate torture or any other activity that even remotely smells like it in anyway, because torture and coercion have only had one purpose in the entirety of history: false confessions and manipulation - the exact opposite of freedom.
It's quite telling that the Iranian people have demonstrated they know more about freedom then most of these idiots carrying Obama=Hitler signs.
Re: Statler. Good to see your name again in the conversation.
Re: Sock puppets. It's worth repeating that a couple of dudes like to post under several names to inflate their presence.
Re: GOP. A fracture is coming, clearly, and these kind of protests, lame as they may be, are the contractions leading up to the birth of something new. (Something terrifying, maybe, but also maybe something reasonable.) Then the D's will split soon thereafter. We're going to have four or five "viable" parties within 40 years. Should be interesting.
EmonOkari said...
'Teabaggers seem more "Palin-ite" than "Paul-ite".'
-----------------------------------
I think there was a great deal of crossover between Palinites and Paulites. There was a lot of talk last year about Palin bringing in Social conservatives into the campaign, and maybe she did, but I think she brought in the 'rage against the machine' conservo-libertarians that made the backbone of Paul's campaign just as much. And that is what these people are.
These are the people who if they weren't quite so sane would head off into deepest Montana and lock themselves away from society completely. If a conservo- libertarian ever got into a position of power, they would turn on them. (Eventually! not straight away!!)
I am not quite sure that Palin is a card carrying conservo-libertarian, but I think she probably knows how to appeal to them, coming from Alaska, a hotbed of the movement. (Note the AIP).
(Must say I am amazed that none of you right wing types have pointed out that Lyndon LaRouche is a Democrat! You guys are slacking!!!)
I disagree very strongly that Paul supporters and Paul himself are anti-authoritarian. They have repeatedly shown that they are fanatically pro-authoritarian, as long as the party and candidate they want is in power. Paul is just a politically correct version of Buchanan and the Taliban-wannabee Christian-supremacist that is at the core of Buchanan exists in Paul as well.
Ron Paul may be many things, some of them good, but one thing he most certainly is not is a limited-government conservative.
I never said the current health care system was cost efficient. I said it was he most efficient at getting excellent health care to the patient. Talk to those in Canada and the UK. Yes, they have universal access to basic care. But their wait times to see physicians are astronomical compared to ours. There are wide swaths of Canada in which people do not have family physician and large percnetage of the people who graduate from familt practice residency programs move to the US. SInce many of the ERs outside of major cities are staffed by family practitioners, the care there is often subpar. Waits for specialists are, on average, twice to three times what they are here in America.
That, my friends is the kind of medical care you get with single payer. You may say "well, rationing of health care goes on in this country, also. Only here it is done by insurance company bureaucrats and not government ones." True, but with one MAJOR difference: in the USA, if you don't wish to have your care rationed, if you don't wish to wait 3 months for an MRI, you can simply opt to pay for it yourself. The people in Canada have no such option. They can't buy a certain medication for themselves in Canada if it is not approved.
I have served in private and socialized medicine systems. I have served in major Health systemsthat are on the fee-for-service model and have salaried physicians. I, personally, have discounted my services for self-pay patients, as well as worked basically for free to provide services not reimbursed (or reimbursed to the point where they don't cover the cost of the reagents used to perform the test) by insurance companies or Medicare.
I know there are access problems. I know that some services are not covered. I also know (anecdotally in my own experience)that the fear of being sued drives a great deal of testing. I also know that the cost of malpractice insurance is a major cost, and sometimes a barrier to obtaining specialist care.
These are the realities of medicine as I see them. Problem is, they wouldn't be solved by a "public option" or single payer.
Yes, our system is imperfect. But, in the vein of Winston Churchill, who said "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."
I feel similarly about our medical system.
You may resume your condescension, but it seems to be smacking of cognitive dissonance.
Oh, and 2 corrections on my post:
The reason that the care in ERs staffed by family practitioners would be subpar is because of the shortage of those practitioners, not their skils.
Also, Canadians DO have an option to their long wait times: coming to the US and paying out of their own pocket, which is happening far more than you think. I have friends in Buffalo, and their patient population contains a decent percentage of self-pay Canadians.
And one other thing, before someone trots out the infant mortality rates that seem to suggest that ours is terribly high for an industrialized nations: the concept of what is considered a live viable birth is different here. In this country and baby born markedly prematurely is still considered saveable. Our care and technology is such that infants25 to 27 weeks have a 90% chance of survival. So while infant mortality is higher, what would be considered a miscarriage in other countries is somtimes considered a live premature birth in ours.
And yes, I spell like crap.... you should see my handwriting.
Lehman, I live in the UK, and with respect, I would not swap the UK health system with the US system. Its one of the major reasons I haven't even considered returning to the US long term for a good while. I personally would prefer to know that come what may I am covered, rather than take the risk that I might lose coverage for any of the reasons US residents risk losing theirs. FWIW in the UK at least, wait times are tolerable at the moment within the NHS, better if one has a private insurance plan as well.
I think Americans who disparrage other countries health systems are being incredibly patronising both to the other country and to Americans. Firstly the system proposed at the moment is nothing like any other country uses. I believe it is a significant upgrade, but it is no national health system or a single payer system. What is proposed right now is a more heavily regulated private health insurance scheme, with the possibility of a government run OPTION to provide competition within the system.
Seems as though the right wing has sunk to a new low...did not think it was possible.
In the link below, they are actually using a photo from over 10 years ago to support their claims of "hundreds of thousands of people" at their rally on Saturday.
Too funny...
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/sep/14/tea-party-photo-shows-large-crowd-different-event/
Honestly, I am wondering, if you live in the UK and use their health system, why are you even interested in how ours works? The only reason I am interested in the UK or Canadian system is because they are constantly held up as an example of how our 'should' be.
It is interesting to me that you know "come what may" you will be covered, but admit that the main complaint against the NHS (the wait times) is alleviated somewhat by 'gulp' private insurers. (I bet those private insurers have the temerity to want to make a profit also) I am assuming that the British pay a higher tax rate than we do? And they also feel the need for private insurance?
Like I said, I know there are access problems here. If you like your system and want to keep it, great. I like our system and want to keep it. Fair 'nuff?
I never said the current health care system was cost efficient. I said it was he most efficient at getting excellent health care to the patient.
That, my friends is the kind of medical care you get with single payer. ... in the USA, if you don't wish to have your care rationed, if you don't wish to wait 3 months for an MRI, you can simply opt to pay for it yourself. The people in Canada have no such option.
Let me stop you right there. As mark has already said, the UK has a private option, and Canada does too. Your entire post is based upon the faulty premise that Canadians and the Brits are not allowed to buy health care for themselves. They are. Canadians most certainly can go down to a private clinic and pay for an MRI, and the wait times will be far less, as you can see from this article.
Your post is also entirely based on the faulty premise that someone in the United States proposed banning private health care or private health insurance and moving to a single payer system. This proposal is nowhere in any of the bills moving through Congress.
We are clearly not "the most efficient at getting excellent health care to the patient" because a far greater portion of our population goes without health care than does Canada. We are the most efficient at getting excellent health care to the patient with the ability to pay.
If you don't have the ability to pay for a nice clinic with pastel walls, you go to the ER, where they are required to serve you. But here you're going to experience incredibly long delays. And I wonder whether these wait time calculations even count private clinics like the ones mentioned in the article I linked to.
You cite that Canada has "2 to 3 times" the delays we do - well... 16% of the US goes without health insurance. Millions of people experience serious consequences in the United States because of medical debt and delay their care because of those costs.
Fundamentally, in my opinion, I agree with President Obama's assertion that no one should have to go broke because of health care. That is a problem with the United States system equal to the problem of the growing costs. Even if we accept your premise that that means that current delays might double, it seems clear to me that that's an acceptable tradeoff. Canadians and Britons generally report satisfaction with their health care.
When I looked at the images of the protesters I didn't think of them as Paulites but as patients who were clearly off their meds. Can we conduct a "health care experiment" and treat half of them with drugs for bipolar disorder and see if they still care so 'passionately' about this stuff?
markymark wrote:
"(Must say I am amazed that none of you right wing types have pointed out that Lyndon LaRouche is a Democrat! You guys are slacking!!!)"
As Ron Paul found out, the Republican Party is a very tightly controlled organisation, run from the top-down, which considers its own rules to be merely suggestions. Thus, Paul was frozen out of the Republican primaries virtually by decree in advance.
LaRouche met with the same "firewall" decades earlier. He found the Democratic Party to be more open, due to the bottom-up structure, and "became" a Democrat. He and his organisation have no loyalty whatsoever to the Party, however. It is a vehicle to get on the ballot, but nothing more than that to LaRouche.
The GOP will face challenges much like Ron Paul with the energised "Tea Party Movement". Like Paul, they will probably freeze them out. If they don't, the Party will get un-electable candidates. If they do, the "base" will split to Libertarian/Constitution party candidates, and the "wave" they see as a certainty will collapse into a ripple.
Republican registration drives have produced dismal results in 2006 and 2008. The Party pretty much has everyone they are going to have already. An "energised" voter still only has one vote, after all.
Persuter,
Interesting article. I stand corrected. So, better health care for people that can pay for it. So the Canadian health care system is doing well?
"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize,"
Dr. Anne Doig, The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association.
Insured Canadians are slightly happier with their health care than are uninsured Americans, but less happy than insured Americans.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1395928
Also, Britons and Canadians are less enthusiastic about their health care than Americans.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/14638/britons-americans-canadians-diagnose-healthcare.aspx
Sorry, I can't see the case for a huge government program that costs $1.6 trillion dollars. Ours ain't perfect, but it's better than the others, at least according to them.
Now if you disbelieve those polls, then I suppose this website is pointless.
"Well beyond their actual numbers"? So far, the coverage looks like the opposite, to me. The protests in DC recently were MASSIVE, but all I hear are references to "tens of thousands."
Anyway, this can't be dismissed at Paul-ites. The language sounds the same because, even though Paul was pretty nutty, he wasn't dead wrong about every little thing. A lot of conservatives agreed with him about spending, but not about several other issues (or at least, didn't match his fervency). Anecdotally, I'm a conservative and have talked to many, many other conservatives about what's been happening over the last few months, and I haven't heard Ron Paul mentioned once.
Todd-
Indeed. I believe Will Rogers (oddly, from the now very much red state of OK) said, "I belong to no organized party, which is to say, I am a Democrat".
This structure has often provided me both happiness and frustration. Its a free-for-all, and that means we have members who are more conservative than the Repugnants, and we have members who are bonafide socialists, including myself. While you can easily define what a Repugnant is, good luck trying to define what a Democrat is.
This frustration has manifested itself most recently down here in Louisiana. David Vitter, arch-enemy of just about everyone, is a rabid homophobe. And that is the main reason why I plan on voting against him in 2010. However, his only Democratic challenger is Charlie Melançon, who in 2006 voted FOR the Federal Marriage Amendment-which would have made it impossible for GLBTs to marry in the US, and it would have been equally impossible for the courts to overturn that.
So, I have to pick from Homophobic Asshole Number 1 or Homophobic Asshole Number 2.
Which is why I am voting for whoever the Green Party candidate is this year, and if that person is a bigot too, then the Libertarian. I'm gonna vote, make no mistake about it, and it will be for someone other than Vitter- I just cannot pinch my nose tightly enough to block out the stench of Charlie Melançon on my way to the ballot box, not to the degree where I could pull the lever in his favor, however.
The fact that LaRouche has a D next to his name means nothing to me. Down here, there are plenty of ultra conservative Democrats. I like to think of them as our Achilles Heel, or maybe just heels. Much as I wish we could frame the political picture in Boolean terms-we're the good guys, they're the bad-its just not that easy. There's a rot in our own party that's just as putrid as the rot in the GOP.
I think maybe that's what we should be attacking. Wouldn't it be nice to have a united ticket of the sane people from both the GOP and the Dems to run against the whackjobs in both our parties?
The real fight isn't Left vs Right. The fight I want to see is the Sane vs the Crazy.
Todd,
The point with LaRouche is also that in a lot of ways Republicans are more partisan in terms of 'Republican' being a badge they wear, whereas a lot of the time the Democrats are more loyal to the ideas that they support.
Its fascinating to me that its generally conservatives who are most forcefully refuting the whole teabaggers are Paulites theory. I don't really understand why the right wingers around here are so embarrassed by that idea. With little institutional support, Paul made a pretty big splash really in the 2008 Primary season. His ideas aren't really that far from conservative orthodoxy, indeed his message is pretty similar to a 20s or 30s Republican- small government, little foreign intervention, America first kind of principles.
I don't say that every teabagger was a Paul supporter, but the general message and methods of action (use of the internet, but still largely top down really) are very very similar.
"So while infant mortality is higher, what would be considered a miscarriage in other countries is somtimes considered a live premature birth in ours."
Wait a minute. Are you really suggesting that Sweden, for example, or Germany or Japan, are all vastly inferior to the United States when it comes to caring for premature deliveries? That claim sounds dubious in the extreme. Do you have a reliable source to back it up?
@Lehman
That article is over 4 1/2 years old. Wait times have actually been dropping, fairly dramatically in some cases.
You completely lack the context for understanding the discussion going on in Canada. You lack an understanding of the geographic/demographic realities. Very low population density, it is hard to get doctors to open practices in such areas, especially rural areas where their spouse may have a very limited employment opportunities if they are also a professional.
I also see further up you mentioned Canadians not being able to get an MRI out of their own pocket. That is patently false.
What the discussion in Canada is about is how to squeeze even more efficency (cost and timeliness) out of the health system(s) using capitalism. After all Canada is fundementally capitalist country. The boogeman they are trying to avoid why doing so is named the "two-tiered system", which taken very strickly you just can't avoid in a capitalist system. So the discussion is, hopefully, going to be framed more in the goal of maintaining or even improving the bottom "tier". Which, if you look at the larger quotes from that incoming CMA president, is what she is talking about.
The CMA is, very roughly speaking analogous to a doctor's union, lobby group, and a government resource for policy creation and enforcement. They hold a lot of sway, and are an intergal part of the health system. As such if they are looking to bring changes it makes some sense to turn up the rhetoric a bit, to get people's attention to put pressure on elected officals. :) Such is the nature of developing public policy.
Health care has creating a lot of cost pressure throughout the industrialized world. The US is just well behind in effeciency to start with. The good news side of that:
1) the basic medicine infrastructure is top notch and in place
2) being behind means you've got lots of opportunity for big gains :)
P.S.
People bitch about health care, they always will. It's something that we'll always see improvements to be made, striving for. ((I'd be very worried if we didn't.)) But I can say, coming to the US from Canada, that even with a very good work health care package I've found the experience to be a friggin' bueacratic PITA [from the patients/customer's standpoint].
Sorry, I can't see the case for a huge government program that costs $1.6 trillion dollars.
I hate to tell you this, but Medicare costs FAR more than that over the timeframe you're talking about.
I mean, you're saying that we just have to accept paying twice as much per capita for health care, and accept 16% of the country not having any health insurance, and accept millions of people saddled with burdensome medical debt, so that we can avoid the government spending slightly more on health care than it does currently. So that we can avoid the horror of having 54 or 53% of the country rate the quality of US health care as excellent or good, as opposed to the 59% we currently enjoy.
"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize,"
Dr. Anne Doig, The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association.
The Canadian Medical Association is a lobbying group of doctors, like the AMA in America, and is pushing for private health insurance reform in the wake of a court case in Canada because they believe it will raise physician salaries. While I certainly respect Dr. Doig's opinion, I do not believe raising physician's salaries is a particular priority in the United States.
Not to mention, you continue to ignore the fact that absolutely no one has suggested a single payer system. You are arguing that our health care should not be like Canada's - well, I have good news for you. No one's suggested that. Do you have any intention of arguing against any of the proposals on the table?
No, but some countries, including Japan, counted premature infants who failled to live past their due dates as stillbirths. There was also a slight problem with countries having a different defiinition of what is considered to be a live birth. Some countries were reporting those that died with seven days as stillbirths, as opposed to infant deaths. There was still contraversey about that as recent as 2006. It will be interesting to see if the above changes changes the US's standing on that list.
I've been pondering the Paul/protester connection for a while now and it's good to see it starting to get some mainstream attention. As a former supporter of the good doctor's run for president (turned supporter of Obama in the general election) I can easily connect the dots.
Paul was vilified by the GOP establishment, including the right-wing noise machine, for his antiwar views, pragmatic view of government, and refusal to toe the party line. But that was when he was running for president during the administration of George W. Bush, doggedly criticizing the other Republican candidates for the very things they meant to campaign on against either HRC or Obama in what was sure to be an uphill fight.
Now that manic energy and grass-roots organization is being redirected in anger against the administration of Barack Obama. The anti-establishment values at the core of the Paulite movement are now cutting against the Democrats rather than against the Republicans. And suddenly libertarianism, populism, and anti-establishment outrage are acceptable to the GOP and the right-wing noise machine.
The problem with the Paulites was always that the sane, smart, thoughtful people - arguably the sanest, smartest, and most thoughtful participators in American democracy last year - are drowned out by loud, obnoxious, plentiful wingnuts who attached themselves to Paul originally because he was anti-establishment and so were they, from their 9/11 conspiracy theories to the automatic machine guns in their closets to their admiration for the White Power movement. Despite sharing none of these values, Paul was reluctant to disavow them strongly enough to shake off these wingnuts, because they inflated his support base considerably and more importantly won him some badly desired coverage.
And so, we have rabid scaremongers convinced that Obama is a eugenicist importing national socialist and Islamic fundamentalist values from Indonesia by way of his birthplace in Mombasa, Zanzibar - I mean, Kenya - who is bent in destroying America and handing it over to bin Laden or Kim Jong-il or the Bilderberg Group or the Illuminati or Satan, Prince of Darkness, drowning out thoughtful conservatives and libertarians who may not be right, but at least have a valid point. You've got meaningful voices like Ron Paul, Walter E. Williams, Peter Schiff, and Andrew Napolitano whose influence is both amplified and retarded by blowhards like Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Joe Wilson, and Michele Bachmann.
So, who started this? Arguably, it was Ross Perot. Or maybe it was Barry Goldwater. Maybe Dwight D. Eisenhower is responsible. Ron Paul would probably find a way to source it all back to Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. But for all intents and purposes, Paul picked this up - or at least took the torch from Michael Badnarik, which I think gives the Libertarian Party a larger role in this than they merit - and what "started" as a Paulite movement to protest the two parties has been molded by conservative pundits and partisan Republicans into a weapon now wielded almost exclusively against the Democrats.
Now, the results of the GOP attempting to parlay this outrage against the Democrats and Obama into taking back Congress and/or the White House could be interesting to watch. That would certainly tell us something about that right-wing noise machine; yes, they can start fires, and they can fan the flames, but can they put them out? As has been observed, a lot of this populist outrage is purely anti-establishment. Even Glenn Beck claims to think the Republicans aren't much different from the Democrats.
If the GOP, riding on this crest of "birthers" and "lifers" and "tax partiers", lands back in power, are they really going to satisfy those angry mobs?
And if they don't, are they going to be able to keep those mobs from coming after them?
To say that noone wants a single payer system is disingenuous at best. Obama has gone on record as wanting to get there eventually. Pelosi has also. As had Teddy Kennedy. It is there desire, and if the people weren't so vehemently opposed to the idea, they would be trying harder to get it. As it is, per my logical extrapolation above, the public option seems to be a step on the way to a single payer system.
And once, again, the main crux of my argument against this type of huge governemnt program is more along the lines of how do they plan to pay for it? The nebulous "savings from fraud, waste and abuse?" If that were really so, then start now. Fix that now. Show us that such savings are possible now. Tuck the $600 billion that is purported to be saved away under a mattress. The cut a few other things to round up the money to pay for the program. Then propose it. We are sick of being squeezed and squeezed and then being told that they've run out of money again and need to borrow more.
Not only do I sympathize and empathize with those who have difficulty accessing care, I spend my own time and money to help them. Of my own volition. I just think that when the government tries to fix a problem, they end up creating others.
Once again, I simply have zero faith in the government to run anything smoothly and on budget, so the proposal of the injection of government even more into health care will make it better doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
And I agree, that it is the people's lot in life to complain about health care. I am happy that the arguments consist predominantly of people considering the issues and speaking their minds, which is their right (nay, their duty). It is when the wingnuts on both sides try to derail the whole shebang with lies, half-truths and insunuations about lack of patriotism or that any criticism of the Obama administration or its policies is de facto racism that the conversation becomes ugly and counter productive.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a bad person or wrong, just one having come to a different conclusion. Cherry picking bits and pieces of news to bolster one's own opinion doesn't constitute actually being informed. Having one-sided chats with people with whom you already agree, and denigrating or insulting opposing viewpoints doesn't constitute open dialogue.
My conclusions about the Canadian system are drawn from treating Canadians who have come to the states for either health care or health care jobs. Maybe they were wrong about their system. Maybe their experiences with teir system are not representative. That is possible. But I only can draw conclusions about what I experience and what I read.
And if the administration wants bi-partisan support, adding real tort reform would be a step in the right direction. That this has been 'off the table' leads me to think that the negotiations are just for show.
My conclusions about the Canadian system are drawn from treating Canadians who have come to the states for either health care or health care jobs. Maybe they were wrong about their system. Maybe their experiences with teir system are not representative. That is possible.
Not only is it possible, it is highly likely. ;)
But I only can draw conclusions about what I experience and what I read.
You should try reading a little wider then. Try some new sources. :) I pulled up that private clinic list page using a simple Google search. What did you base your assumptions about MRIs on?
Keep in mind that there is variance across the country. There isn't a single health care system per say. There is are federal guidelines and each province implements their own with the rules and structure varying.
To say that noone wants a single payer system is disingenuous at best. Obama has gone on record as wanting to get there eventually.
So, to answer my question, no, you do not want to argue against any of the proposals on the table. You want to argue against what you believe is the hidden goal of the legislation, while, of course, not MENTIONING that, but simply pretending that the legislation actually IS single-payer.
And once, again, the main crux of my argument against this type of huge governemnt program is more along the lines of how do they plan to pay for it?
Took you five posts to get to the "main crux" of your argument?
It is when the wingnuts on both sides try to derail the whole shebang with lies, half-truths
Mmm. Would this be something like misrepresenting the current health care reform as single-payer until directly asked? Or perhaps like saying that Canada doesn't have private health care?
and insunuations about lack of patriotism or that any criticism of the Obama administration or its policies is de facto racism...
Ah yes, the racism canard. Someone, somewhere, sometime, called someone a racist so people must be calling YOU a racist, right?
Cherry picking bits and pieces of news to bolster one's own opinion doesn't constitute actually being informed. ...
My conclusions about the Canadian system are drawn from treating Canadians who have come to the states for either health care or health care jobs.
Interesting, then, that you didn't know that there is private health care in Canada. Cherry picking anecdotes from people you've met does not, unfortunately, constitute being informed.
And if the administration wants bi-partisan support, adding real tort reform would be a step in the right direction. That this has been 'off the table' leads me to think that the negotiations are just for show.
The negotiations are for show. If you think real bi-partisan support would come from adding tort reform, you are extremely naive. The Republicans will all vote against health care reform because to do otherwise would be to destroy their own party. The media debate is all just to get ratings, because to admit everyone's got pre-determined decisions and they're not going to change wouldn't take up multiple 24-hour cycles - any politically-informed person realizes that the Republicans are never going to back Obama on anything.
I favor universal single payer. To me, its basic math. Okay, not to basic math, its more like statistics. Got your calculator handy?
Now, insurance companies make money the way a gambler does. There is a certain probability that any one policy holder will file a claim at any one moment in time. A smart gambler will try to reduce the risk of receiving a claim by selecting policyholders who have the least probability of becoming ill. The combined risk of all the policy holders on a given plan is called pooled risk.
Now, some policyholders are incredibly healthy young people like me who are only getting insurance because the school insists on it. We're all going to pick the plan with the lowest annual fees, and fuck the deductible or the copays-its not like we're going to be seeing a doctor any time soon anyway.
A person who has alot of physical problems-say, they have a deficient immune system, or a birth defect, or they grew up living next to a lead smelter-they aren't going to go for the cheepie-beepie plan. They're going to go for low copays, low deductable plans.
Its likely all the healthy people will wind up in similar (if not the same plan). The insurance company makes hand over fist, because the odds of having to pay out are so small, they just take in money without paying anything out.
Its equally likely the people who really need care will wind up in the same or similar plans. Here, the risk of having to pay out is very high. the only way for the insurer to make any money at all is to charge exhorbitant rates for these plans, and to raise them as an individual policyholder's odds of becoming sick increase. Got cancer? Rates are goin up. HIV? Rates are goin up. If the risk is too high, the insurer just boots you out entirely-finds some reason to disqualify you like a pre-existing case of acne you forgot to report.
Now, the distribution of the risk in each pool is the important thing. If you concentrate all the high risk cases in one pool, the average risk per person is high.
this is called Adverse Selection.
The way out of AS is to create one very big pool of healthy and unhealthy alike. That way, the risk is distributed more evenly across the whole country-and the end result is that the average risk per person is quite low, because there are a whole helluva lot more healthy than unhealthy people.
That giant pool is what we call Universal Single-Payer.
Now, this isn't based on politics-the Right will always point at government and conclude its doomed to fail no matter what it does-which is why they always fail once they become the government. This isn't based on some hackneyed bias or 'Ohh, all corporations are evil bloodsuckers" argument. This is based on logic, simple, apolitical logic.
Can you refute this argument without wandering off the deep end?
The real and best way to separate out the true libertarians is the issue of immigration.
the right wingers are nutso against it. libertarians may not be for "amnesty" but are for "no quotas" on immigration. This isn't a side issue either, but an essential tenet of libertarian thinking. If people are not free to choose the government in which they live (free to emigrate or immigrate), then the whole concept of self-government collapses.
I would agree that a lot of people would like a single payer system. They know they aren't going to get it. I don't think anyone is backing a single payer scheme as a stepping stone, though it may turn out to be one if the insurance companies don't get their acts together once the public option comes in. (And it will come in one day, whether it is in the current reform package or not, because one thing is sure, Barack Obama won't be the last President to have to deal with health insurance and provision reform.)
The government option is a compromise. Sometimes compromises are good. Sometimes they simply preserve the worst of the current system whilst not providing any real upside. Personally I would want a government option in this bill so that we can see if it will work or not. But mark my words, this insurance reform puts the insurance companies on the watch, this is there last chance to get it right, before a single payer becomes the obvious solution.
Vern, on this issue, you and I are strangely in agreement. I am not a libertarian, I consider myself to be a dyed in the wool social democrat. However, I think we have found common ground on the immigration issue.
In America today, the bulk of our population rests in what is called the Baby Boomer generation. Now, the Bommers are set to retire here right quick, and pretty soon, they're all going to be out of the workforce (no longer paying into Social Security) and in retirement (drawing money from Social security). Now, if you look at the population distribution stratified by age, there's alot more of them than there are us young people still paying into the system. Which means, if the situation stays as it is, they'll bankrupt all of us.
However, we simply cannot, as a matter of conscience neglect the well-being of our seniors. Further, they do play a pretty important role within our society as advisors, having the benefit of more experience than the rest of us. WEven if they are not paying into the system, they are still advantageous to keep around, even if you don,t get all warm and mushy looking at a cute elderly couple the way I do.
Now, the solution to this is to increase the number of young people in the United States. I don't mean lets all go out and make babies-they take 18 years to reach the workforce, and that would mean two whole decades of bankruptcy before the economic crisis lets up. No, the solution is to bring people in from the outside world, skilled workers who have something valuable to contribute to our society. Immigration is the cure to our Social Security woes.
America is a nation of immigrants. The number of Americans who can say no ancestor of theirs ever came here from overseas is very small indeed. Immigration is the reason why our country is as strong as it is. Immigrants built the railroads, immigrants comprised the workforce during the Industrial Age-when we encouraged immigration from all over, because we knew we needed the manpower. This solution has saved our butts many times in America's past, from the Mexicans we allowed to immigrate during WW2 because our soldiers were overseas fighting the war, and somebody had to keep the machines humming along back home, to the railroad workers from China that came over to establish our national infrastructure. There are some hard working folks out there that just want a chance to work hard and make it, the American Dream. Lets bring those hard working people inside for the benefit of us all. Open the borders.
Two points: One is that a lot of Ron Paul supporters, especially the younger ones, supported Dennis Kucinich as a second choice. A lot of people were attracted to Paul for his general anti-bigbrotherness, be it public or private, and not for his crazy individual policies. Those folks, I think, aren't the Tea-Baggers.
Second: As if to drive your point home beyond a doubt, I just found out that Paul is holding a townhall meeting with Michele Bachmann a week from Friday! This, I think is tea bagger crowd.
I have been attempting to explain how the Tea Party movement consists primarily of the libertarian conservative wing of the Reagan conservative coalition which bailed on the GOP in 2006 and 2008 in reaction to oxymoron of Bush "big government conservatism".
Almost as if on cue, the Washington Examiner reported today:
“What is this movement you keep talking about in the speech?” the president asked [his speechwriter] Latimer.
Latimer explained that he meant the conservative movement — the movement that gave rise to groups like CPAC.
Bush seemed perplexed. Latimer elaborated a bit more. Then Bush leaned forward, with a point to make.
“Let me tell you something,” the president said. “I whupped Gary Bauer’s ass in 2000. So take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.”
Bush seemed to equate the conservative movement — the astonishing growth of conservative political strength that took place in the decades after Barry Goldwater’s disastrous defeat in 1964 — with the fortunes of Bauer, the evangelical Christian activist and former head of the Family Research Council whose 2000 presidential campaign went nowhere.
Now it was Latimer who looked perplexed. Bush tried to explain.
“Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say,” the president said, “but I redefined the Republican Party.”
BDP said
'I have been attempting to explain how the Tea Party movement consists primarily of the libertarian conservative wing of the Reagan conservative coalition which bailed on the GOP in 2006 and 2008 in reaction to oxymoron of Bush "big government conservatism".'
------------------------------------
I've made similar points before, but conservatives really ought to stop making out that there were massive differences between Reaganism and Dubyaism. BDP calls Bush a 'big state conservative' but in what way, that was different from Reagan's government?
Bush and Reagan were both foreign interventionist, strong military, neo conservative foreign policiers, with a strong law and order bent, and running up the national debt. The Republican Party that lost in 2008 was the same party that won in 1980. Reagan was no more a small government conservative, at least in practice than Bush.
Just because somone disagrees with you doesn't make them a racist fool.
I guess you didn't see the thousands of racist signs these morons were carrying.
And for some, believe it or not, Obama personifies an amalgam of beliefs that is the antithesis of what many of these people stand for in every way, shape, and form, so I don't really see what the problem is here.
Too bad you have proven yourself a racist time and again on this site Ass Rider.
That these nutbags have to continually lie about what Obama said or did and about the numbers who attended the hate rally just shows how inconsequential they are.
Just because there is hardly anyone sane speaking for the right doesn't mean these idiots have to be given the time of day.
If you take the KKK member rolls, as well as that of the flat earth society you will have a good description of these people.
The Tea Party movement is the epitome of grass roots.
Really?
Then why is it that conservative organizations started this nonsense and continually prop it up and fund it?
This is as grass roots as a corporate advertising push is.
I also saw these types of connections, where the tea party seemed more Libertarian than Republican which I covered in an article and a video at MN Progressive Project.
In case there was any doubt, a movement can't be the 'epitome of a grassroots movement' if it is co-opted by a national TV station, backed, perhaps founded by a coalition of PACs lead by a former high ranking member of the House of Representative and bankrolled by big money donors.
Statler,
If the question is “how do we supply health care insurance for everyone?”, then your proposal works as far as that question goes. But, will this proposal result in the best health care at the lowest price?
As a thought experiment, let’s consider that we move to single-payer car insurance. To best mimic health insurance, let’s also have car insurance pay for gas, oil changes & maintenance and, better yet, car insurance will give you a car. Now, let’s put the federal government in charge.
What might happen? You don’t care what the price of gas is; you’re only paying a small co-pay. When the price of gas goes to $5 a gallon, you feel very little incentive to drive less. The gas station has to hire a clerk or two to process all the claims with the government. Some gas station owners say that they are selling gas when they are really just putting the government’s reimbursements in their own pocket.
When you go to get a oil change, you accept every offer of additional service they offer (why not? New air filter? Better safe than sorry!). You get a little dent in the car that you might have “lived with” before, off to the body shop.
The government decides that a Ford Fusion is “enough” transportation for everyone (and it probably is). If you want a mini-van (take the kids to soccer) or a pickup (it makes you feel like a cowboy) or a sports car (you know it’s irrational, but you can’t help yourself), you need to apply for a waiver. Some urban residents may not even need or want a car but, their taxes are paying for one, so they might as well take it.
Chevrolet spends tens of millions lobbying Washington because they think that the government should provide Impalas. Ford knows that they’re going to sell plenty of Fusions, so they spend more on their lobbying efforts than they do on improving quality. Ford’s biggest priority is keeping the skids greased in Washington, so that’s where most of their efforts are aimed. The price of a Ford Fusion? It will be whatever the government will pay. There will be no incentive for Ford to find ways to lower the price. The government won’t pay enough for Ford to make a profit? Pretty soon Fusions will be Trablants.
The problem is that the incentives are all lined up the wrong way. Keep the demand higher than the supply and there is only one choice, rationing.
The current system sucks, but there are market based reform plans that will make the system work better.
markymark said...
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I've made similar points before, but conservatives really ought to stop making out that there were massive differences between Reaganism and Dubyaism. BDP calls Bush a 'big state conservative' but in what way, that was different from Reagan's government?
Bush and Reagan were both foreign interventionist, strong military, neo conservative foreign policiers, with a strong law and order bent, and running up the national debt. The Republican Party that lost in 2008 was the same party that won in 1980. Reagan was no more a small government conservative, at least in practice than Bush.
-----------
Allowing for the distinct charisma and communication deficit of Bush vs. Reagan, the critical difference between 1980 and 2008 was not one of policy but the simple matter of who was at the helm when "the country was headed in the wrong direction" (a seemingly increasing concomitant of a graying America). The Republican party of today, even more so than in 1980, is an uneasy coalition of libertarians and social conservatives...ill suited to governance. By contrast, the Democratic Party is a coalition of government clients, far more supportive of and attracted to government.
While any attempts to seek a lineal descent are quixotic at best, this has been a constant tension in our society since Jefferson and Hamilton first struggled for Washington's ear. As yin and yang, both are essential and have their proper role to play.
You can shut the hell up about me unless you plan on backing up that smack, tough guy.
Email me at boner723@gmail.com if you've got the balls, asshole. I've already got Davy and Dwight on board for an epic showdown. No reason I can't stomp a mudhole in your ass too.
Wow more physical threats from our resident racist fuck-head.
Color me shocked.
The current system sucks, but there are market based reform plans that will make the system work better.
The market fails over and over and over because it is run by people who would do anything; if they were unleashed, to make a dime today in spite of how many people it would hurt, what it would do to the environment and even if they knew it would cost them a quarter next year.
beavis, seriously, I suggest you go up and read my previous post about why engaging or even acknowledging people like Mule Rider is a waste of time. It might do you some good. Certainly being one of the rare few who actually has used a personal insult in his direction (unlike most of the people he attacks for doing so) is in no way helpful to your case.
On that note, does anyone else find it hysterical that someone who thinks that inter-pubescent sophomoric rage is the height of political discourse has an e-mail address that starts with "boner"?
Ass Rider,
If you have to refute arguments by physical threats than maybe your "point" is invalid?
You are like the trailer-trash teabaggers who have nothing of substance to say so they just scream their idiocy louder and louder.
Now, let’s put the federal government in charge.
What might happen? You don’t care what the price of gas is; you’re only paying a small co-pay. When the price of gas goes to $5 a gallon, you feel very little incentive to drive less. The gas station has to hire a clerk or two to process all the claims with the government. Some gas station owners say that they are selling gas when they are really just putting the government’s reimbursements in their own pocket.
When you go to get a oil change, you accept every offer of additional service they offer (why not? New air filter? Better safe than sorry!). You get a little dent in the car that you might have “lived with” before, off to the body shop.
The government decides that a Ford Fusion is “enough” transportation for everyone (and it probably is). If you want a mini-van (take the kids to soccer) or a pickup (it makes you feel like a cowboy) or a sports car (you know it’s irrational, but you can’t help yourself), you need to apply for a waiver. Some urban residents may not even need or want a car but, their taxes are paying for one, so they might as well take it.
Except for your "waiver", which is not in any of the bills before Congress, how is this different in the slightest from the way employer-based health care works now? Is there some magical incentive which keeps people from using their employer-based insurance as much as possible, where they wouldn't with government-based insurance? Is there some invisible force field preventing doctors from overcharging private insurance that doesn't exist for the government? When your employer decides how much insurance they want to give you for free, how is that any different from the government deciding?
I wouldn't say the crowd was overwhelmingly Ron Paul supporters, but rather it was filled with people who held their nose while they voted for McCain.
Factoid: Rand Paul, son of Ron Paul, is contesting with "establishment" candidate Trey Grayson for the Republican nomination for the seat of retiring Senator Jim Bunning in Kentucky. When the 9/12 Tea Bag express held its event in Louisville, Paul had a display booth on the grounds and a legion of supporters working the crowd. Trey Grayson and his campaign where nowhere to be seen.
I believe this tells all one needs to know in assessing the validity of arguments that this 9/12 or teabag phenomenon is a fabrication of the Republican Party. I'm sure they would like to harness this enthusiasm but, equally, one would think that they must be wary of it. As I said, a verryyyy uneasy coalition...more suited to opposition than governance.
markymark said...
BDP said 'I have been attempting to explain how the Tea Party movement consists primarily of the libertarian conservative wing of the Reagan conservative coalition which bailed on the GOP in 2006 and 2008 in reaction to oxymoron of Bush "big government conservatism".'
------------------------------------
I've made similar points before, but conservatives really ought to stop making out that there were massive differences between Reaganism and Dubyaism. BDP calls Bush a 'big state conservative' but in what way, that was different from Reagan's government?
Domestically, Bush only followed the Reagan model in his tax rate reductions of 2003 and perhaps in the legislation prohibiting partial birth abortion. All other Bush domestic policies were at complete odds with the Reagan model and were actually far to the left of the post 1994 Clinton Administration.
You make a very astute point concerning foreign policy, though. Bush went into office with a semi isolationist foreign policy. However, 9/11 changed Bush fundamentally and he adopted the Reagan Doctrine of regime change against the Soviet Union in toto and applied it to the Middle East.
BDP, ok lets start by looking at judicial nominations, one of the most crucial domestic decisions a President can make. How was Bush anything other than exactly the same in looking for judicial originalists for the bench?
How did Bush do anything but deregulate the markets? Even after the enron scandal broke in the first few months of his Presidency? Exactly the same pro life to the extreme policies, exactly the same lack of environmental policies. Very very little difference really. Except that Reagan was popular and Bush, in the end, wasn't.
BillB said
'The current system sucks, but there are market based reform plans that will make the system work better.'
-------------------------------------
Two things
I don't think the system could work much worse really.
And the logic of fixing a market based system that doesn't really work, by using the market, doesn't make much sense to me.
For the second time in a week, Mr. Schaller publishes an editorial devoid of any statistical measurement. I read this site for verifiable facts and reasoned analysis, not random punditry.
538 needs a separate page which is limited to Nate Silver's analysis.
Also, Ron Paul's public action group thingie (C4L) is doing a nationwide rally today, September 15, and did not even mention this charade in Washington this last weekend. So, Tom, your "suspicion" is pretty retarded from the start.
Lehman…
You spell like crap because you think like crap. It’s all of a piece.
Fifi is really getting steamed now. The gut-you-like-a-fish line is just up ahead. He could cross it any moment now. Yesterday the spew was confined to anatomical comparisons, today in addition we have direct orders (“shut the hell up”) and threats (“stomp a mudhole in your ass…”) Too bad all those dark clouds had to be coupled with that cutesy email address “boner723”.
How can anyone quake with fear when they’re laughing so hard?
By the way, looks like Joe Wilson is bucking his own party in his obstinate refusal to apologize for childishly insulting the President last week.
Bart DePalma said...
I have been attempting to explain how ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BDP, you've been attempting to explain a lot of things at 538 ad nauseam and failing miserably each time ... god love 'ya!
Keep hope alive!
take care
markymark said...
BDP, ok lets start by looking at judicial nominations, one of the most crucial domestic decisions a President can make. How was Bush anything other than exactly the same in looking for judicial originalists for the bench?
I thought we were talking about Bush's policies. Appointing judges who swear to apply the law as written is not a policy judgment.
How did Bush do anything but deregulate the markets?
When did this happen? The last major deregulation bills were enacted under Clinton.
The fact that Bush did not do everything you as a Dem wanted him to do hardly means that what he did domestically was not primarily big government liberalism - NCLB, Medicare drug benefits, a nearly 1/3 increase in spending.
I'm continually startled by how much some people claim to enjoy visiting the doctor, having injections and MRIs and surgery, getting root canals, and taking all sorts of prescription drugs. The only thing stopping them from having recreational surgery and seeing the dentist more often than necessary is that they'd be billed for it. I've heard of Munchausen's Syndrome, but I had no idea that it was so common.
Meanwhile, among the people I know, a major problem is convincing elderly parents to go see the doctor, when they won't have to pay one thin dime out of pocket. Or getting anyone to get to the dentist at least every third year. That's not a financial issue: it's that they really don't like what happens in the dental chair, or what they think might happenv.
Pragmatus said...
By the way, looks like Joe Wilson is bucking his own party in his obstinate refusal to apologize for childishly insulting the President last week.
____________
1) Are you not confusing one (1) rival SC Congressman for an entire political party?
2) Joe Wilson acted in a childish and impulsive fashion...indisputably a breach of decorum.
Rather reminiscent of the boy who naively blurted out that the emperor was wearing no clothes.
3) Let us not forget who it was that began throwing around the words "lie" and "lying." Twas the emperor himself who got down in the gutter and set a bad example for "juvenile" Joe.
4) Affording Wilson the opportunity for martyrdom simply ratchets up his credibility with the SC electorate and virtually guarantees you will be seeing more of him.
5) It affords bluedogs an additional opportunity to "walk the plank"...something they need about as much as another hole in their head for 2010.
Being a self-avowed pragmatic, I'm sure #4 and #5 will have an especially strong appeal for you.
All other Bush domestic policies were at complete odds with the Reagan model and were actually far to the left of the post 1994 Clinton Administration.
Like what? Stem cell research policy? His SCOTUS nominees? His stance of the teaching of Evolution/Creation in science classes?
Now I'll acknowledge that in a lot of ways 43rd gave a higher ratio of actual action:lip service to religious elements within his party. But more than a little of that had to do with the GOP in Congress, a GOP caucus that had gone through an internal purge. Reagan had a party that was much more a mix, Reagan also had some easier items on their agenda to pick from.
But that 43rd was closer to fascist hardly made him more "left".
Mule Rider said...
I've already got Davy and Dwight on board for an epic showdown.
WTF? Again with the bizzare disconnect from reality. I though that me stating that "meeting you is roughly as high on my priority list as pounding a nail into my foreskin" would be clear enough. O_o To help clear things up, on my list of priorities pounding a nail into my foreskin is very, VERY low on my To Do list.
Dwight, please don't feed the Mule er Mark Jordan er whomever our lovable loser appears to be at any given moment.
Unfortunately, even dubya will tell 'ya, some children will be left behind ...
BillB,
First of all, let me thank you for exhibiting a trait that has been lacking in most political debate, and which is even rarer still on internet forums-civility. I shall endeavor to return your kindness as best I can.
Your argument is referred to as the Moral Hazard argument, and it works well when we are discussing non-essential goods and services. The car in your example is a good one-it illustrates what would happen if we were to nationalize car insurance, and then throw in a bunch of car maintainence things.
Now, I am not proposing that we nationalize car insurance. Were we to do so, it would, for one thing, encourage people to drive more, and I am opposed to the idea of people driving more, from an environmental standpoint, and also from the standpoint of someone who finds that most people who do drive are absolutely obnoxiously bad at it. Frankly, I hate driving, not because there is anything about the experience of hurtling down the asphalt at a high rate of speed that bothers me per se- its more a function of having that joyful experience interrupted by a highway full of idiots.
I am however in favor of encouraging better health, and nationalizing health insurance would accomplish this rather nicely. A major problem we have here in the US is not an overutilization of heathcare, rather, an underutilization of it.
For the majority of people that use Emergency Room services in the US for reasons other than injury, they report with preventable conditions. In fact, examining the top ten reasons why people die in America, we see that all of them are preventable. heart disease, the number one killer, could be prevented easily is more people had access to a physician who could diagnose the condition early on, and recommend simple lifestyle changes before it develops into a condition that is both expensive to treat, and so disrupting to the lifestyle that it prevents the patient from working or otherwise contributing to society in a productive way. However, most uninsured or underinsured do not enjoy the ability to see their physician for regular checkups, which would reveal the condition in its nascent stages. They wait until they are, literally, on Death's Doorstep.
You can argue moral hazard when overindulgence is a problem. It is foolish to do so when underuse is the problem. Our ER rooms are clogged with people who waited too long, for fear of the medical bill they would receive if they had gone in early enough. Their treatments are therefore costly, their lives ruined, human misery increased-all because you dread the idea of them coming in to see their doctor too often.
Your fears are unfounded. We have the exact opposite problem that you describe.
I thought we were talking about Bush's policies. Appointing judges who swear to apply the law as written is not a policy judgment.
Because judges are interchangable? There is no idealogical difference of opinion on interpretation of law, the Constitution, and BoR?
Is that what Ron Paul told you...and only you? ;)
Dwight,
Sorry for mis-representing your position. I was just having it out with beavis and threw your name in the ring because you actually had the balls to email me.
Apology accepted.
What I don’t understand is—why not leave the decision of the “public option” up to the people and businesses that might want to have it?
So far we’ve heard mostly from the screaming right who are opposed to a public option. But the public option should be like any other choice, such as, say, whether or not to wear a beard. If you don’t like beards, don’t grow one. There’s no need to campaign against them, in fact you’re only going to make yourself look like a jerk nimrod if you do.
I say write a bill that provides for a public option if there is a demand for one, and also include mechanisms for paying for it. (Easily done if businesses convert what they are paying through the nose for private insurer premiums.) Then all the rightwing arguments would be undercut. If you are opposed to a public option, then don’t avail yourself of it, but don’t deny it to others who do want it. What could be more American that letting the people decide for themselves what they want, instead of some GOP/insurance industry bureaucrat?
Statler:
Good to see you back.
BillB,
Let me state also opposition to the basic premise that all governmental ventures are inherently worse than if they were private ventures. Allow me to offer up as evidence three government-run programs that, due to their nature as government-run programs-are superior to any private venture that would dare to replace them.
I shall start with the military. We have seen the problems that arise from using private contractors to replace them in Iraq and Afghanistan. From these private company employees drinking shots of vodka from each others' asses, to Blackwater guards going on rape and killing sprees, these private security contractors cost more than military personnel, are harder to prosecute when they screw up, and continually embarrass us overseas because they know they can literally get away with murder. privatization's not lookin' too good when it comes to the US military.
In contrast, when Us military personnel pull a Lyndie England or a Mai Lai, the UCMJ empowers us to pull them out of action before they can cause any further harm, and prosecute them.
Next example: the police. Now, imagine if there was no publicly funded police force, if they were, in fact, privateers. You would have to bribe them the way they do in Mexico-and look how well that's working out for Mexico. Imagien traveling to a city on business or for vacation, getting robbed, and having nowhere to go for help, because the security company hired in lieu of a police force refuses to service anybody who is not paying them. You couldn't leave town with the assurance that the laws will be enforced wherever you are going the same way they are at home. That would kinda suck, right?
Last example: the fire department. Now, this was once a private venture, in the late 1800's. Go rent the film Gangs of New York sometime to see a pretty accurate example of how the NYFD operated in those days. You paid a subscription to one of several competing FDs, each with their own trucks and firemen. Your subscription came with a nifty plaque, big enough to be visible clearly from the road, identifying which specific FD you subscribed to. If your house had a plaque for a competitor when a given FD's truck drove by your burning house, they kept driving-or worse, they would get into actual fistfights with the FD you subscribed to while they were trying to put out your blazing home. Most times, by the time your house was on fire, that was the end of it-consider it gone and anybody inside at the time to be dead-the FDs were practically worthless.
Now, I would argue that when it comes to non-essential services-say, a suit or a car or restaurants-these things don,t need to be nationalized and never should be. You can live without a car, so if you don't see one you like, you can just wait until a good one comes along. Same with nice clothes or eating out.
healthcare, the military, the police and fire departments, are not the same. These things all belong solidly in the public sector, as they are essential to life and a productive, peaceful society with some semblance of normal life to it.
This is, I think, the main difference I have with the political Right. For free marketeers, the free market is seen as sacred, golden, untouchable, godlike even. It is a hard and fast rule to them-thou shalt not fuck with capitalism. My argument is that this core value of the Right is wrong. I would argue that their reluctance to discuss the Sacred Cow of Wall Street is a flaw in their worldview. There are some sectors of the economy that do belong in the private sector, and solidly so. However, other sectors function better in the public sector. Not all, but some. And healthcare is one.
Thank you, GROG. It's good to be back, although this site is something of a distraction from my studies. I may periodically fade in and out as a result, but it is nice being able to engage in the kind of civil discourse intended to be the very engine of our democracy from Day One. Intelligent, respectful, and insightful analyses such as yours, BillB's and others on the Right hand side of this board do much to help me develop my own ideas. I appreciate the dialectic you help to provide here.
Statler,
An actual conversation? That would be interesting, although I’d hate to deprive Mule Rider and Shiloh of the space to hurl insults at each other.
As to “Moral Hazard”; no, I really wasn’t concentrating on that as much as I was trying to point out how economic systems build anything other than market principles have their problems. I’ll skip all the “Markets are good because….” stuff that you’ve no doubt already heard. Markets work at producing things that people actually want. They don’t work very well at producing things that others think people should want. I assume that it is not possible to make people want things other than they really want and that any attempts to do so will meet with failure. That’s all the Capitalism vs Socialism argument. Now, if anyone isn’t convinced that capitalism is the more efficient system, then we’d have to go back to that argument and that would be a waste of time. Some on this site really just don’t like capitalism because it doesn’t produce results they approve of and they’re certainly entitled to their POV, but I don’t want to argue with them.
The people I think I could talk to are those that mostly believe that capitalism and markets work for MOST things but that health care is different. I don’t think so. My primary goal is that people get the health care they want at the lowest cost possible and with the highest quality possible. If I thought that a government run plan would do the best job of achieving these goals, I’d be on board. I also don’t think that a humane society can allow people to die on the streets because they can’t afford health care or are born with problems beyond their control. If taxing Bill Gates at a rate of 99.9% solved the problem, I go for that as well.
So, I think we both want the same thing. We differ on how to achieve it. Both of us have problems with the existing system. I think Obamacare (for lack of another term) would make things worse. There are free market solutions that have been floating around for years that I believe would work.
Occasionally I fall into the trap of thinking that I can actually communicate via web posts before realizing once again what a fantasy world I’m living in. If you would like to keep this going, I’ll keep checking this thread for a while.
BillB,
Well, the internet itself is a fantasy, a communal one at that. Forums such as these have people convinced that each and every one of us is an armchair political advisor of the top notch, a Chris Mathhews in our own right-although very few of us have ever held elected office or studied at length political science, economics, philosophy, or just about anything other than the lint collected by our navels. Myself, included.
I digress. To take issue with your defense of capitalism, may I suggest that you are very much correct in that the free market produces what people want-however, healthcare is not really based around what people want. I mean, lets face it-people want some very irrational things, like the ability to eat nothing but Deep Fried Butter and guzzle nasty tasting beer in lieu of anything nutritious. Nature, unlike Madison Avenue, really doesn't care what you like or don't like. Eat enough , as they do in Glasgow, and you'll have heart failure rates equivalent to the Glasgowegians. Biology is not subject to a consumer's whimsy.
Plastic surgery aside, medicine is not a function of choice. One does not have open heart surgery because one feels like having their chest cracked open. One does not elect to have their spleen removed just for fun, and it is not fashion that dictates how many kidneys you have.
The free-market is well suited to matters of choice. You choose whether you drive or not. You do not choose your birth defects. Nobody shops for cancer.
Accordingly, you should not have to shop for the treatment or cure thereof, as shopping is largely based on what you can and cannot afford. One does not buy Prada with food stamps. However, you should not be denied life saving care simply because your wallet is empty. All our lives, no natter what accident of birth placed us in the last will and testament of, or on a given's state's dole of, are priceless beyond compare.
You cannot place a price tag and compare who's life is more valuable than who's. I reject with utter disgust the notion that some are entitled to life by virtue of their bank account while others must die prematurely, or suffer painful disability, as a mere function of the circumstances of their birth. Those born to a family in Beverly Hills are Winchester County are not superior to those born in the backwaters of Mississippi Delta. All life is sacred, much more sacred and dear to me than your money, your free markets and your damnable corporate interests. Your profit margins shall not dictate the moral code to which I hew. I find the idea offensive, disgusting and base. To equate medicine with mere baubles and trinkets displays an utter regard for the value of life itself. It is bullshit of the lowest order.
Some win the lottery by just being born. I have known many at my school and in the places I have lived, who have never wanted for anything. And not because of any virtue they possessed, not as a function of the hard work they performed. Unless you think they chose to whom they were born and inherited their wealth from. And then there are the swindlers, the Conrad Blacks of this world, the Bernie Madoffs. Are they morally superior to the poor? Do they enjoy some special right to live free of disease a child born into poverty in Appalachia lacks?
No, I reject your notion that life is a commodity to be bought and sold like petty baubles on department store shelves. You have no right to sell or purchase the lives of others, or to deny them in the name of your damnable markets and profit margins.
I say all this with respect to you, if not to your philosophy.
Statler N Waldorf said...I reject your notion that life is a commodity to be bought and sold like petty baubles on department store shelves. You have no right to sell or purchase the lives of others, or to deny them in the name of your damnable markets and profit margins.
___________
Pretty prose but quite beside the point...healthcare IS a commodity and it is and will continue to be rationed. The only question is how.
Obama and the House Democrats are promising the public no policy cancellations, no preexisting condition exclusions...even a cap on out-of-pocket expenses. So how do you provide no-cap coverage for all Americans for everything they want unless you cut what you pay doctors, hospitals, and drug companies and also ration care? And, let us not lose sight of the fact that rationing would be both overt through care authorization parameters (as in Britain and other countries with National Health Care) and, eventually, the even more sinister unintended consequence of chilling the availability and innovation of practitioners, techniques and drugs, as the profit motive is diminished or eliminated.
Of course there is "rationing" going on even now but it is contractually-based rather than based on the exigencies of a government budget...which means that there is a legion of ambulance chasers to help you fight it if you are being screwed. There is a world of difference between fighting the government and fighting some company when a dispute arises about anything…and there will be disputes no matter who the bureaucrats are working for. There are no “death panels” but there is the functional equivalent in a faceless bureaucracy putting cost/benefit analysis to work in deciding who will have what treatments available to them. The government should be there as a referee on health care, NOT as your opponent.
BillB,
also, the phrase 'deep fried mars bars' was, for reasons unbeknownst to me, omitted from the comma in the sentence about Glasgow. Glitch, I guess.
Now, let me state that the goal of capitalism and corporatism is to generate capital. It is not to service the public good. This is why the pharmaceutical manufacturers in the 1800's sold cocaine and heroin over the counter, and today they offer us Vioxx and fen-fen. Your life means nothing on their balance sheets, only whether or not you will pay them for their wares - no matter how deadly. If they consider life at all, it is merely in the context that a living customer is more likely to repeat their purchase than a dead one.
The restaurant industry in NYC fiercely rejected the health department's support for bills banning public smoking and trans fats. That smoking and indeed second hand smoke causes lung cancer is no longer any more disputed than the law of gravity, and the damage trans fats cause is well established in the medical literature. Their motivation had absolutely nothing to do with the public danger they posed-they frankly did not care how many New Yorkers died of heart attacks before 40-there are plenty more around to replace them as customers after they die.
Well, this is not only morally objectionable, as I thundered on enough about in my prior post. It is damaging to society as a whole. If you die a preventable death, or suffer a preventable disability or illness, we have all, as a society, failed. We are poorer your valuable contributions to our culture and our lives for it. It is therefore in the best interests of society to keep you alive, productive, free of disease and misery to whatever extent we are capable of. Beyond that, you are on your own. While I believe we have a moral obligation to help you avert heart attacks, we are under no obligation to grant you a Mazeratti.
There is something to be said for moderation. Animals that overhunt run out of food, and in turn, starve. So too do markets that overfeed on the sweat of those who labor, offering nothing in reward. The recent credit bubble's bursting, and the collapse one year ago of Lehman, should still be fresh enough in your memory to remind you of the dangers of unrestrained capitalism. By bleeding your debtors beyond their capacity to pay, charging mortgage rates they could never afford, you soon wound up with CDO's that were worthless-promises for money you'll never get. I'll not have you bleed the life out of working people the way you did their money. No, you have done enough damage to America, and you shall do no more.
I support HR 676, because human life is priceless, we all have a right to it and to live free of disease, and profit is the motivation of those least concerned with well-being. It produces products that are unrelated to well-being-drugs like Viagra and Rogaine, rather than life saving medicines for the poor, a multitude of clinics that will perform face lifts and laser hair removal, and nothing for the underclass who suffer from having inhaled the factory fumes at their workplaces their whole lives.
I find any equivocation between health and well-being with cheap kitchy commodities to be offensive. What value do you place on human life when you equate it with department store trash? What does it say about how you value human beings, including those in your own life, the ones you love and care about-when you say that their continued presence on this earth is something to be bought or sold for money?
Your money disgusts me, it makes me want to vomit. Your greed is repulsive, like watching an animal eat its own kind.
Cincinatti Rick,
Bullshit. It is not a commodity, no more than the military, police or fire departments' service are commodities. healthcare is a public good, a basic human right. You will not sell our rights.
I know I'm clogging the thread with too many posts, but indulge me one more. I want to address Rick's issue of costs.
First, the current system f care is costly because there is no emphasis on prevention. In an earlier post, I discussed hwo heart disease, detected at an early stage, can be treated with a simple alteration of diet or exercise patterns. Compare that to the costs associated with open heart surgery, implanting a stint in the coronary artery, or in vasodilator medications.
If patients have access to a physician for regular checkups, the cost is lower than if they wait unt5il they are damn near dead for fear of a bill. You reduce costs when you make preventive care accessible.
Further, inefficiencies in the current system, such as the lack of HIT in many hospitals, over-reliance on unneeded procedures (Ever notice when you switch dentists how they do the exact same X-rays the last guy did-even though the originals are of the same mouth and the same teeth?). Quality control measures, such as autopsy, which used to be common and have lapsed in the past half-century, can be revived.
That's the practical answer. The ethical answer is that, even if cost-cutting isn't enough, and we have to raise taxes to ensure that all Americans have access to care, its worth it. Stop and think of an infectious disease like XDR TB for a second. Its become quite common in Russia and Eastern Europe, and its only one infected person's plane ticket away from the US. Imagine it spreading throughout the uninsured population, the working class. By the time you realize its a problem, its already too late-enough of the population is infected that you now have to pay large expensive amounts of money to treat the whole population. You could avoid that if every potential victim had access to a physician the minute they felt the onset of symptoms. You could then catch it before its a problem, and not after.
If XDR TB is too exotic for you, what about Swine Flu? That shut down Mexico for months. Imagine having to close every shop and every eatery just because you were too cheap to allow people to see a doctor when they felt sick. Imagine not being able to leave your house, because a microscopic killer is on the loose, int he air, hovering right outside your door, and you could have avoided that, but for simple greed.
Don't be so foolish. The bacillus that causes TB, and the virus that causes the flu, is no respecter of persons. Deny care to the poor and vulnerable today, and tomorrow, it will be your child that is coughing up blood in the sink.
I'd pay a little bit extra in taxes if I could avoid that nightmare. Wouldn't you?
Statler N Waldorf said..."Now, let me state that the goal of capitalism and corporatism is to generate capital. It is not to service the public good."
Reply: Yes, the goal of capitalism is to generate profit and not service of the public good. But, to do so effectively, it must offer goods and services that the public wants. Now, it is possible to define the "public good" as something with a life of its own, separate and apart from the sum of the private goods in a society. Such a definition is contrary to the American tradition and democratic theory. It has ever been the conceit of various elites that they are specially blessed with the capacity to identify the public good. The intelligentsia has its niche among those elites: that it can stand dispassionately apart from society and see clearly what the true interests of that society are. Since the shoe fits, you may wear it.
Again, Statler N Waldorf...."It is not a commodity, no more than the military, police or fire departments' service are commodities. Healthcare is a public good, a basic human right."
Reply: The role of government encompasses the utilization of force to sustain itself...implementing the national interest, enforcing its laws and maintaining civil order. The history of fire departments (as education) is somewhat more checkered as to public vs. private and also as to payment for service rendered, even when public. Local communities, to the extent that voluntarism has not sufficed, have taxed themselves to provide these services for all residents but it would be difficult to dismiss the logic that those voters are in fact exercising their judgment as to where their personal interests lie. Certainly, neither history nor logic would support the contention that fire department services are a human right. And they do not support your contention that health services (at whatever level) are a "human right." Now, once again, you may arrogate to yourself, by virtue of your superior wisdom and objectivity, the authority to define for others a "public good" that supersedes the feeble understanding that they glean from pursuing, each, their own private good. But please don't presume to delude yourself that you are operating within the context of democracy. You are embracing the new authoritarianism, as Thomas Friedman recently did (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/opinion/09friedman.html?_r=1), praising the Chinese political system and lamenting that we do not enjoy the same capacity for swift and decisive action in the public interest by the enlightened elite. It's a trite and hackneyed phrase, but "un-American" fits so well.
I don't really think we are ever going to really understand what understand what the "Tea Party Movement" is all about until it is dead. Subcultures are not easily analysed from the outside, except as a post-mortem.
For example, recall the multitude of analysts who claimed, at the time, to understand what the hippies or punks were all about. Also, recall how profoundly wrong they were and how they merely pasted their own pre-conceptions over what they saw.
One thing that I am fairly confident about, however, is that this idea that there is a huge wave of outrage over socialism, taxes, or government intrusion is bogus.
Gallup did an open-ended poll a week ago (9/9), asking what the most important problem facing the United States today was.
10% said it was "dissatisfaction with government".
9% said it was the deficit.
1% said taxes.
1% said inflation.
Nobody mentioned socialism.
Meanwhile, we are told by the wingnut cognoscenti that Joe Wilson was just saying what everyone was thinking. Gallup doesn't support this idea, either. Only 6% were enthusiastic about the outburst, with a total of 21% at least tacitly supporting him. 68% were against. Even the majority of Republicans oppose the outburst.
The wingnuts are over-reaching, but there is no "off" switch, no brakes on the crazy. DeMint and other Republican officials have already endorsed the movement, and it is already associated with Palin and Bachmann in the minds of most Americans.
It's a political suicide pact in the long term.
Statler,
Wow.
"Your money disgusts me, it makes me want to vomit. Your greed is repulsive, like watching an animal eat its own kind"
That's your response to my post?
Really?
I no longer have an interest in communicating with you.
Pragmatus said...
What I don’t understand is—why not leave the decision of the “public option” up to the people and businesses that might want to have it?
So far we’ve heard mostly from the screaming right who are opposed to a public option. But the public option should be like any other choice, such as, say, whether or not to wear a beard. If you don’t like beards, don’t grow one. There’s no need to campaign against them, in fact you’re only going to make yourself look like a jerk nimrod if you do.
I say write a bill that provides for a public option if there is a demand for one, and also include mechanisms for paying for it.
I ave no problem with choice. You have Congress charter a non profit health insurance that will be run by the government but will receive no subsidy or guarantee whatsoever from the tax payers, cannot use the power of the government to order lower compensation for their doctors and will subsist on premiums alone.
The management should have the same level of qualifications to run a health insurance company as the Obama Auto Task Force has in building cars.
The workers will be SEIU members.
Would you invest your retirement savings in such a company if it wasn't backed by the tax payers?
Would you entrust your and your family's health care to them?
It would be out of business in less than a year.
That is why Obamacare has no intention of offering you anything of the kind.
BillB said...
Statler,
Wow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, actually Statler wrote (6) paragraphs replying to your post before he typed the very descriptive 7th.
Some folk feel very strongly re: the health care debate, just like Joe Wilson who called the president a liar at a joint session of Congress and the many, many astro turf yahoo/redneck protesters who would be very happy if Obama was assassinated!
... and the truth will set you free!
Bye
BillB,
Yes, really. Begone, foul varlet.
Cincinnati Rick,
I profoundly disagree with your opening sentence. The state does not have the role of using force to perpetuate itself. That is far closer to totalitarianism than anything you could accuse Socialists of. The state's role is not to that of an angry mob, and this is not Lord of the Flies.
And yes, I woudl argue that fire department services are treated as a human right. For example, if you were to come visit my city (and I do hope you do-its rather lovely and we like tourists), and say you were to stay a night in a hotel here. Do you pay property taxes to sustain the local FD? No, you own no property here to tax. Or say you were a renter. Renters do not pay property tax, either. And yet, whether apartment dweller or hotel guest, should your room catch on fire, the local FD would come and put it out and help you escape the flames. Why? Because this si a public good, a public service, rendered to any and all within this jurisdiction, regardless of whether they pay into the system or not. Further, the risk of fire is distributed evenly, across all property owners and all their tenants, guests, and passers thru. The benefit of the proection is also offered equally, to combat that risk.
Universal single payer would offer protection from disease or debility to anyone present, much as the local FD offers to put out the flames on your clothes without checking your ID to see if you pay property tax here or not, and I assure you that if you do not, no bill will be sent to your home for their trouble. We, the tax payers of my fair city, consider this to be a gift we offer warmly (no pun intended) to anyone present.
Now, are the citizens of my city arrogant for assuming that you would want us to put the fire on your clothing out, and not simply let you burn? Perhaps, when you are on fire, we should simply take a poll, and ask everyone before we act. That would be more democratic, wouldn't it?
I would argue that your zeal for democracy is admirable. In your zeal, please do not forget that the dead have less freedom than the living. I'm sure you would appreciate it if we were to delay that poll of all 500,000 people in my city to after we have put the fire on your clothing out.
Shiloh,
While I agree that my feelings are quite strong, I think I did a tad better than calling for an assassination or publicly humiliating the Head of State on live TV. The worst thing I've done is overpost on a topic thread-all the while focusing on attacking the arguments and their premises of my opponents, rather than their personages. If I'm guilty of anything it's of prolix rather than mindless ranting.
Surely I rate a more favorable comparison than Joe Wilson or the teabaggers.
Statler N Waldorf said...
Shiloh,
While I agree that my feelings are quite strong, I think I did a tad better than calling for an assassination or publicly humiliating the Head of State on live TV. The worst thing I've done is over post on a topic thread-all the while focusing on attacking the arguments and their premises of my opponents, rather than their personages. If I'm guilty of anything it's of prolix rather than mindless ranting.
Surely I rate a more favorable comparison than Joe Wilson or the teabaggers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, I take full credit for my hyperbole and bad analogy. Not my intent to compare you to Wilson and the yahoos. Sorry to lump you in w/bigot Wilson and the racist protesters as you were only expressing your true feelings re: health care at a blog.
Wilson, given his extreme background and racist memberships, his intent was quite clear in calling an African/American president a liar as he enjoys his extended (15) minutes in the klan community. And hopefully all of the racist, conservative protesters are passive/aggressive as the secret service has to be increasingly vigilant.
BillB is just another disingenuous conservative troll who stops debating when logic interferes w/his agenda.
btw, BillB compared me w/Mule ;) but, but, but I never threatened to leave 538 a gazillion times and posted a top ten most despised/hated conservative troll list lol which is an impossibility for me 'cause Rep trolls at a progressive blog only make me smile!
ciao
@ Cincinnati Rick:
You say:
'Now, once again, you may arrogate to yourself, by virtue of your superior wisdom and objectivity, the authority to define for others a "public good" that supersedes the feeble understanding that they glean from pursuing, each, their own private good.'
I must point out that there is no rational basis for preferring the imperatives of an individual's private good over the requirements of a public good. Certainly, that mugger down the street is prevented from persuing his private good (mugging you) by virtue of a public good (police) that no living citizen had a hand in creating. The entire legal system is an agreement that our set of national mores supersedes the wishes of any individual.
As far as the free market offering services that support national security, that is problematic. For example, the free market is not sufficient to provide national defense, because an effective free market requires choice and competition. Unfortunately, choice and competition must be enforced (imagine telling a privatized military you'd like to terminate the contract, and they say "no"). Therefore, to shop effectively for a military, you'd need a military anyway to enforce the contract.
While a free market produces a good most efficiently, it does not guarantee the reliabiity of that good. In fact, the free market doesn't guarantee the availability of a good at ALL, as competition is predicated on failure. While the aggregate action of the free market is towards more efficient delivery, this is achieved by the large number of failures that drive capital to those efficient enterprises. Failure is the engine of capitalism. In situations where you absolutely cannot afford failure, the free market is insufficient to the need. Just look at AIG, Citi, etc. If the failure of those instititions is a global catastrophe (which is arguable) and can't be allowed, they are no longer capitalist enterprises.
Healthcare is not optional. Therefore it must be affordable and reliable. By definition, the market can't guarantee either of those things. From a free market perspective, it's perfectly OK for an insurance company to drop you soon as you get cancer, because if they unfairly drop enough people they go out of business. From YOUR perspective, it is absolutely not ok to suddenly lose your cancer insurance, the fact that you have incrementally moved that company towards bankruptcy offers you no utility.
While I don't think healthcare is a basic human right, I DO believe that a healthy citizenry is clearly a case of the "General Welfare" of the United States. Certainly insofar as sickness leads to death, the survival of it's citizens IS a primary responsibility of the government (this viewpoint is buttressed by the fact that an ER can't turn you away). Every debate should be about cost of the system, the desired percentage of coverage must be assumed to be 100%.
i dont think that those protesters are ron paul supporters. i dont know any of those protesters, but most of the ron paul supporters i knew were wishy washy "libertarianism is cool" types who i wouldnt expect to be that politically active ever.....unless ron paul got elected
Mark Levin, who I believe is a movement conservative, also thinks most social spending, like Medicare and Social Security, is unconstitutional.
Thanks, Shiloh :)
shiloh,
I may have overreached in using you and Mule Rider in the same sentence. I do doubt that anyone can be as bad as him and it's unfortunate that he seems to be on my "side".
I can guarantee that it wasn't Statler's razor-like logic that caused me to give up communicating with him.
I've spent quite a bit of time trying to have rational discussions with the left (I'm a libertarian and disliked Bush as well) with little or no success.
The problem is that the left believes that there is only one correct answer and that anyone who disagrees is therefore evil or stupid.
I was truly stunned by Statler's response. I had basically left a post pointing out that we both wished for the best health care for everyone and that we simply disagreed as to the best method to achieve that. I checked the thread later last night thinking I might be able to enter into a meaningfull conversation & was shaken by what I found. I really felt despondent and sat around for an hour feeling hopeless.
Hey, but I'm better now. I'll just have to go back to using the internet for porn.
I supported Ron Paul in the primaries, and I'm proud that I did. He, like Dennis Kucinich, was a real anti-war candidate.
But the Tea Party movement has captured the style of the Ron Paul campaign, and some of the rhetoric, but not the ideas.
Observe that Tea Party advocate Glenn Beck raised the ire of Ron Paul's supporters by inferring that we were terrorists.
There may be some Ron Paul supporters who are ready to follow Beck and Dick Armey in the Tea Party movement, but I and the people that I worked with on the Ron Paul campaign think the Tea Party is complete BS - nothing more than an attempt by GOP regulars to hijack the movement to their own ends.
BillB said...
shiloh,
I may have overreached in using you and Mule Rider in the same sentence. I do doubt that anyone can be as bad as him and it's unfortunate that he seems to be on my "side".
I can guarantee that it wasn't Statler's razor-like logic that caused me to give up communicating with him.
I've spent quite a bit of time trying to have rational discussions with the left (I'm a libertarian and disliked Bush as well) with little or no success.
The problem is that the left believes that there is only one correct answer and that anyone who disagrees is therefore evil or stupid.
I was truly stunned by Statler's response. I had basically left a post pointing out that we both wished for the best health care for everyone and that we simply disagreed as to the best method to achieve that. I checked the thread later last night thinking I might be able to enter into a meaningfull conversation & was shaken by what I found.
__________
Shaken? Surprised? Come now, who is being disingenuous? Those who disagree with accepted reality here in the 538 echo chamber are not only evil or stupid, they may even be dismissed with the new ultimate put down, "racist."
Alas, while one would be hard pressed to improve on your central thesis of intolerance and rigidity on the left, it needs to be seen in a larger context.
We are all blind, as were the blind men who were asked to describe the elephant. With each touching a different part of the great beast, they came to profoundly different conclusions. It has ever been the conceit of the "true believer" that they are not blind and therefore this parable does not apply to them. The arrogance that one has escaped the human condition and sees all whole has ever been the source of the greatest harm that men have inflicted on other men.
Every autocracy has been the product of "reasonably enlightened people." Just ask them if you have any doubt. It is ironic, yet totally understandable, that those who have no problem seeing the proclivity of the right to moral certitude in imposing its values have such a lack of vision and comprehension when that same certitude and imposition is coming from the left.
Quo vadis? This site was once good for its electoral analysis but, increasingly, there is a paucity of hard research and an overload of bloviation from the hangers-on who infest these blogs.
from BillB:
The problem is that the left believes that there is only one correct answer and that anyone who disagrees is therefore evil or stupid.
I'm going to have to disagree pretty strongly here, Bill. Basic neuropsychology shows this attitude to be far more endemic to the conservative brain than the liberal one. While dislike of specific conservatives and the Republican Party by liberals does tend to get personal, it takes time to reach that point, whereas Republican personal attacks on Democrats tend to happen very quickly. Liberals are also far more likely to go after their own than conservatives, simply because the nature of liberalism is to constantly question their viewpoints - which is also why (to centrists), conservatives seem far more certain of their convictions. Liberals are also far more likely to read/watch/listen to conservative news sources that the other way around.
On the same note, I'd like to thank you (and Rick, for that matter) for using the term "left" and not "liberal", because yes, there are dogmatists on the left, but they are not liberals (though I still think they are less likely to use the charged term "evil"). It is semantically impossible to be "dogmatic" and "liberal", as the very essence of liberalism is evolving views - much like the liberal-founded United States.
Conservatives frequently assume that we are as dogmatic about our views as they simply because we disagree with them, but that is certainly not the case. If we were, we'd have changed dozens of laws by mid-March, rather like the Bush administration tried to do in 2001. This country, thankfully (for both sides), doesn't function that way.
Which brings me to Statler; He's still young and in the somewhat politically-closeted world of academia. Of all the things that Republicans like to label as "liberal", there is none for which they have a more valid point than academia - though I still think that complaining that people with an above-average education are typically liberal is hardly a ringing endorsement of conservatism. Once one starts having to deal with the real world, we tend to temper our attitudes. No matter how correct we feel our viewpoint is and no matter how much evidence we have to back it up, we know we can't make the changes we want over-night, nor should we. Thus, changes have to be incremental - which has its own traps.
As for Mule Rider, get as "preachy and sanctimonious" with him as you want. It's fun to watch him get positively apoplectic when anyone but him does it.
Oh, and in regards to your last line? Go for liberal porn. That whole "lower inhibitions" thing makes for way better viewing.
BillB said...
shiloh,
I may have overreached in using you and Mule Rider in the same sentence. I do doubt that anyone can be as bad as him and it's unfortunate that he seems to be on my "side".
I can guarantee that it wasn't Statler's razor-like logic that caused me to give up communicating with him.
I've spent quite a bit of time trying to have rational discussions with the left (I'm a libertarian and disliked Bush as well) with little or no success.
The problem is that the left believes that there is only one correct answer and that anyone who disagrees is therefore evil or stupid.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Overreached a tad ;) and yes Virginia he's on your side even though all of the cheney/bush Reps from 2001 to 2009 "have" recently turned into independents and libertarians lol.
but, but, but "the left believes that there is only one correct answer" having been a progressive from the late '60s can guarantee you as you say, the left disagrees ad nauseam on everything. It's the Rep party who is monolithic as they fall in line and especially "former" Rep trolls at progressive blogs, like yourself are one trick ponies on every progressive subject and re: Obama.
And Mule, you finally have a racist, clueless troll buddy at 538, Cincinnati Rick ... congrats! May the two of you have several years of discombobulated bliss. Too funny!
take care
... and yes Mule, you can definitely have the last word in this thread, ciao
IcarusPhoenix said...
from BillB:
“The problem is that the left believes that there is only one correct answer and that anyone who disagrees is therefore evil or stupid”.
From Icarus Phoenix:
“I'm going to have to disagree pretty strongly here, Bill. Basic neuropsychology shows this attitude to be far more endemic to the conservative brain than the liberal one.”
Two problems here:
1) I’m afraid you have misrepresented Bill’s thesis in order to make your point. He spoke of the “left” while you speak of the “liberal.” A rather strange confusion insofar as later in your piece, you acknowledge the distinction: “On the same note, I'd like to thank you (and Rick, for that matter) for using the term "left" and not "liberal", because yes, there are dogmatists on the left, but they are not liberals (though I still think they are less likely to use the charged term "evil"). It is semantically impossible to be "dogmatic" and "liberal", as the very essence of liberalism is evolving views - much like the liberal-founded United States.”
2) You wouldn’t happen to have a citation for your neuropsychology, would you? This contention is so off the wall, one must assume that it is tongue-in-cheek.
A true liberal is totally agnostic, eternally on guard against any human being claiming communion with ultimate power and purpose in our universe to the end of ordering society and demanding others to conform with his vision, whether it be his personal relationship with God, dialectical materialism, Aryan preeminence, the public good, human rights, nature, etc., etc., etc. And a healthy liberal occasionally checks to ensure that he may not have arrogantly slipped into thinking that he is above the hoi polloi and somehow possessed with the capacity to escape the human condition.
We do agree about one thing: the liberal foundation of the United States. Skeptical of those who would define government as having a higher purpose than serving the liberty and pursuit of happiness by individuals, our founding fathers designed a system that checks rather than enables power, with whatever certitude and direction it may be employed.
IcarusPhoenix,
That would be a great discussion to have, but I'm feeling a little gun shy.
Shiloh,
I've been a libertarian since I was able to vote. Sure, you can say "especially "former" Rep trolls at progressive blogs, like yourself are one trick ponies", but why? Clearly you can't know enough about me to come to that conclusion, so what's the point? How does that move the discussion forward?
Rick, at fist I thought a little weird that you disagree with me by agreeing with me, even to the point of quoting the passage in which I clarified that very difference... at which point I re-read the whole thing and realized that I was unclear, in that I should have stated at the outset that it looked to me like BillB was the one not clear on the distinction, and I was clarifying. it. Whether or not that is in fact the case for Bill is a question for him to answer, not me, but that was my impression of what he was writing. Apologies for the lack of clarity in my writing.
As for the neuropsychology, I do. There are several studies that show this, actually, from cognitive linguists to psychologists to neurologists. The most recent that I can recall is a study from NYU and UCLA in 2007 (though there may be newer ones, this is the latest I can remember). I'm sure that a little time would let me find the actual study, but I'm feeling a bit lazy, so I'll just give you the link to an L.A. Times story on the subjectL http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-sci-politics10sep10,0,2687256.story
Like I said, there are actually numerous studies with either identical or similar results, but that's the latest I recall.
Bill, I can see why you're a tad gun shy, but don't give up. You're actually contributing something here, unlike certain others - and yes, that includes some on my side, too.
Ok, it's time to break my rule and respond directly to Mule Rider because he has written quite a thoughtful (if inaccurate) post.
First of all, I said neuropsychology, not psychology. I'm not Tom Cruise or anything, but I have severe reservations about modern psychology, and don't consider it a "pure" science, but a social one in that it uses very little mathematically verifiable data.
Neuropsychology, on the other hand, is a branch of medicine, and while a science very much in its infancy (the brain being the least understood organ after all), it still uses the scientific method to obtain duplicatable and verifiable data.
As for the Brooks book, I have in fact read it, and I find Brooks' conclusions somewhat faulty for a variety of reasons. First of all, he doesn't examine what the charities in question do in comparison to who gives to them. All religious charities are included, and he also counts pretty much all religious giving as "charity", even if someone giving money to a particular church or religious charity does not actually result in the recipient then using that money to assist others - the manner of that assistance being something we could debate all day, mind you. Again, this is one of the traps in his book. He puts far too much emphasis on religious charity, and very little on non-religious matters. This had a noticeable effect on his data collection, since, after all, conservative states do tend to have higher church attendance rates. They also have higher divorce rates, so that certainly doesn't guarantee any kind of moral certitude.
As for utilizing that as a response, I think perhaps you have fallen into a trap yourself. Open-mindedness and charitable giving are mutually-exclusive items. Giving tithes to the same church your whole life doesn't necessarily mean you're willing to change your views based on contrary evidence.
IcarusPhoenix: Thanx for the citation although I'm not qualified to evaluate any study in the field of neuropsychology. But, while it is no reflection on the study itself, the news article suffers from considerable confusion, confounding (in a manner that you have already disowned) “left” and “liberal.” Following Hannah Arendt, the critical continuum I see is authoritarian/statist vs. liberal. Within the authoritarian tendency, there is a left and right. But they differ only in the higher authority they reference and channel…they are equally eager to force their vision on their fellow man (for their own good, of course). Arendt, in erudite fashion and Eric Hoffer, ever down to earth, both demonstrate the fungibility of authoritarian beliefs and the identical (and needy) personality types to which they appeal.
While operationalizing a tendency to rote or structured (as opposed to thoughtful) response as conservatism is intriguing, I find questionable allowing subjects in any study to self-identify. And I am not certain that it is defensible to place “conservatism”, a resistance to change, on the opposite end of a spectrum with liberalism. Where the established order is itself liberal or supportive of liberal values, one may be both liberal and conservative at the same time.
It seems to me that the real challenge to liberals, whether they be conservative or progressive, is to avoid being taken in and consorting with authoritarian/statist types who happen to be singing from the same hymnal.
Just a quick point before I (theoretically) sign off for the day. Rick, your point in regards to liberalism is accurate, but more of an academic argument, in that you're referring to classical liberalism (a la Hobbes, Locke, et. al.), which encompasses the modern right and left in this country, rather than modern liberalism, which is merely the "progressive" subset thereof.
Ok, I know when I start dredging up my old political theory courses, it's time to get away from the computer for the day...
OK IcarusPhoenix, you've earned some time off...class dismissed. Of course it's an academic argument...what else from an academic?
The human condition requires that we distort reality and cram it into pigeonholes in order to grasp it. Hopefully, in academia, we do it in a more structured and responsible fashion. Common parlance may equate "liberal" and "progressive" but common parlance is nothing if not sloppy.
As you have noted, we are founded on liberalism...the founding fathers and our founding documents are the essence of liberalism and yet many were quite conservative. The tug of war between Hamilton and Jefferson is being played out still today, the eternal yin and yang of American politics.
IcarusPhoenix,
Is there anywhere on the web where reasonable discussions like this can take place?
I checked your link and found it very interesting, but I don’t think it necessarily conflicts with my point, in fact, it probably supports it (by the way, I’m basically channeling Thomas Sowell’s “Conflict of Visions” on this topic. I know he’s not much more than a right wing crank at this point, but he’s done good things in the past.).
I struggle with labels like “left” and “right” but I can’t think of anything better. I don’t question that the left is smarter or more open to new ideas than the right, that’s the crux of the issue (I recently saw a study that only 6% of scientists self identified as Republican). Smart people value articulated reason. They see a problem, formulate a solution and then want to implement it. This sometimes leads to a “the ends justify the means” attitude. They can’t understand why everyone doesn’t make the same “smart” decisions they would make. This leads them to believe that their opponents are stupid or in the pay (or the sway) of evil forces. They see tradition and loyalty as artificially restricting their freedom to improve things. They would like to see judges make the “right” decision and see a blind adherence to the law as an impediment to this goal. They tend to underestimate the possibility that unintended consequences might make their plans go awry. They are in favor of centralized power because, with smart people running the show, they can be more effective.
The “right” acknowledges that some people are much smarter than others in their area of expertise, but don’t grant them that same status in other venues. They care more about processes than outcomes. They are leery of making large changes to things that have worked well for long periods of time. There must have been some good reason it’s always been done that way (and there usually is). They worry about unintended consequences. They believe that the best laid plans of men often go awry. They want to keep government decentralized because they don’t trust smart people and they don’t want to be told what to do. The right often think that their opponents are well intentioned but naive.
This is not to say that there aren’t any smart people on the “right”, but “naïve” smart people who haven’t thought in depth about these issues are likely to be on the left. The more experience smart people have with reality, the better the chance that they move to the right.
Sometimes, I wish that was some mechanism in place in which the people who vote for something actually have to pay for it.
I know it's juvenile and would never work (I mean, who wants to spend their own money things like infrastructure: bridges and the like). I just get upset that when the American people (or a subset thereof) the reaction is always "STart now, we'll pay for it later" followed by "Tax the greedy rich and the corrupt companies with their evil profits"
I agree that in order to do business, there are a set of moral priorities that should be followed that aren't or can't be codified in a set of laws. I agree that it is a citizens duty to do good with whatever bounties they are fortunate enough to have earned.
I guess I just object to things I disagree with being passed and paid for with my money.
But, hey, elections matter, so we all expected a degree of left-wing crap to come about, after all the right wing crap of the past 8 years. DOesn't mean we have to like it. DOesn't mean we should just sit down, shut up, and take it. What it means is that we are duty bound to fight what we see as an injustice with vehemence.
WHat I don't understand is the level of vitriol spewed by many of the fools on this message boards, writing terrible insults they would never dare speak to someone's face. I admit, there are just as many unreasonable nutjobs on the right as there are on the left (I mean really, for every gun nut who wants access to automatic weaponry, there is an eco-activist that wants us to go back to horse carts and candle light). WHat I have seen here contains a large amount of expletive laden diatribes directed in a condescending fashion.
It is hard to believe that any of you considers yourselves as adding anything positive to the debate. It is a string of "You're stupid" and "I know you are, but what am I." type childish behavior.
You guys can have this message board, in fact this entire site, as it seems to exist solely for onanistic liberal intellectual fantasy.
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