9.21.2009

Don't Count Health Care Chickens Yet

The smart, insider take these days seems to be that health care reform will almost certainly pass the Congress. Different encapsulations of this can be found from Ezra Klein ("that's where we sit: incredibly, incredibly close to the finish line") and Megan McArdle ("I now put the chances of a substantial health care bill passing at 75%").

Actually, Megan's number seems about right. If I had to attach a probability estimate to health care passing, it would be that one: 75 percent. But I don't think it's as high as, say, 90 or 95 percent, and my sense is that there are lot of informed observers who do.

My encapsulation last week was that public opinion on health care is now more or less fully formed, and that Democrats managed to snatch a draw from the jaws of defeat. Hardly what they'd want under ideal circumstances. But probably good enough, given that the memory of the impact of the failure to pass health care reform in 1993-94 looms large in the Democratic consioussness.

But it's one thing for some combination of the 59 Senate Democrats, plus Olympia Snowe, plus Ted Kennedy's replacement in Massachusetts, plus perhaps one or two retiring Republicans like George Voinovich, to have the intention of passing health care reform. It's another thing to actually do it. And the process itself is rather complicated, for several reasons.

1) The process will be loooooooong. There are more than 500 amendments to Senator Baucus's mark-up, some of which are dilatory or trivial, but many of which -- especially those offered by Sens. Snowe, Wyden are Rockefeller -- are substantive. Essentially every aspect of the health care debate will be revisited? The public option? There's an amendment for that. More generous subsidies for the middle class? There's an amendment for that. Some random crap about ACORN? There's an amendment for that too. (Personally, I'm surprised that no Senator has yet taken the opportunity to insert an amendment ensuring that no Al Qaeda members will be covered by the health care bill.)

A lot of these amendments, presumably, won't make it to the Senate floor. But many will. And some of them may not only be voted on -- they may also be filibustered, which could eat up days at a time.

And that's still only one-third of the process. The House still has to pass its bill, and that vote is likely to be close. And then there's the conference committee report that would merge the Senate and House versions. A lot of hurdles still have to be cleared.

2. There's opposition from both the left and the right. I remain somewhat agnostic about the idea of issuing an ultimatum on the public option -- both whether it's the correct tactic, and whether the threat is credible. But certainly, this is different from how it usually goes in Washington. Either a public option will have to be inserted -- or a lot of progressives will lose face. Neither of those things will be pretty, but one of them has to happen. It is a multi-way negotiation, and multi-way negotiations are exponentially more complex than two-way negoitations. It is not necessarily obvious that the window for a health care bill that is neither too far to the right nor too far to the left is large enough to accommodate 60 senators and 218 representatives.

3. The opposition is multi-dimensional. As we described last week, there are a lot of objections to the Baucus bill -- and, moreover, there are a lot of different kinds of objections. A particular problem seems to be the funding mechanisms. Pro-labor Democrats object to the tax on expensive health care policies; people like John Kerry have parochial objections to the tax burden placed on various industries that may be abundant in their states; governors object to what they see as a heavier load that the states will have to carry on Medicare. We can expect to hear from the booze, cigarette, and Slurpee if the various sin taxes are reintroduced. And the Senate seems anathema to inserting a broad surtax on high-income earners, as the House bill deigns to do. If the negotiations break down, it will most likely be over the funding mechanism -- not because of coverage-related issues like the public option, where the objections are less orthogonal.

4. Reconciliation is, at best, a last resort. For months now, there's been debate over the Democrats could plausibly use reconciliation -- a tactic that would allow them to circumvent the filibuster and pass health care reform with 50 + 1 votes. I'm not an expert in Senate procedure, but I've found the "anti"-reconciliation arguments more persuasive. The pro-reconciliation folks seem to be saying: there's nothing really stopping Democrats from doing this, except political willpower. But political willpower is the whole rub: it's not clear there's enough of it to get it done. If the bill goes through reconcilation, a lot of process hawks will drop out. To name names, I'm thinking of Senators Snowe, (Ben) Nelson, Lieberman, Byrd, and Conrad, probably among others -- I can imagine Russ Feingold objecting, for instance. It is also likely to be a strange duck of a bill if it goes through reconcilaition, and so you might also have people dropping their support for more substantive reasons.

Again, the point of this is not to frighten anyone. I've thought the chances of a health care bill passing have always been at least 50 percent, and are higher now than they have been in some time. But the Democrats still have a couple of first downs to achieve before it's goal to go.

67 comments

mikelow1885 said...

The ball is on the 30 yard line-but it's going to take 13 plays to reach the endzone.

With all the amendments, health care reform will pass next spring.
It is a long, long process.

The hard left (at OpenLeft and and TalkLeft) are intractible on the public option. But a bill with 60 votes will be accepted by skeptical independents, not a bill with 50 + Biden. The other part of Megan McArdle's blog post, is that we'll have a GOP House next year. Even with HCR passing, will the GOP be energized? Will there be a 1966-style backlash at the expansion of government? Could be.

I actually think if HCR passes the Dems lose 20-25 seats in the House due to some backlash against big government, but the GOP won't be as energized (they fired all their bullets too soon), but the final bill won't be "robust" enough (no public option) and many liberals stay home also.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

IDK man. It's looking like a reality. Be it a trigger that was initially floated by Kerry and now embraced by Snowe or the options being pushed by Rockefeller, I feel it's a done deal unless something significant happens in the next few weeks.

Personally, I'm for a trigger if it puts serious pressure on insurance to not raise rates at ridiculous amounts as they have been and it keeps them in check. Then we get a two-fer. Less Govn't and keep future costs down.

Anon said...

with 600 ammendments, why do you have to encourage another one, the Al qaeda ammendment.

Kofi said...

For the first time in the history of US healthcare reform is going to happen, because it is the "left thing to".

shiloh said...

Reality:

1) Health care reform has an evolution dating back to the Truman administration, when Dems and Reps if not liked at least respected each other.

2) Yes back before corporate interest lobbyists had a stranglehold on Washington politicians.

3) Rahm Emanuel, who's very familiar w/the Clinton administration attempt at health care reform told Obama if he attempts reform anew, be prepared for the party of No! and far right press to declare the process dead 3/4/5 times before a final outcome is determined.

4) Worse case scenario for the party of No! and and the health care insurance industry is passage of health care reform w/a public option hence, ergo, therefore they are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it.

5) By definition if this is not Obama's Waterloo, then it will be a gigantic win for him and the Dems, regardless of the party of No!'s spin.

6) Underestimate Obama at one's own peril!

7) another health care reform thread ;) manna from heaven re: political discussion ~ let the Rep spamming and ad nauseam Rep minutia begin ...

g'day

Walker said...

This was a particularily weak entry.

Essentially Mr. Silver is giving "passage of health care reform" at somewhere around 50%.

Well geez! What a prognosticator!

Define what "health care reform" is.

Would any bill labeled something like the "Health Care Reform Act of 2009" count as "health care reform", no matter what it included?

My goodness.

I don't think anything substantial is going to pass unless he tacks to the middle in a big way.

Tyler said...

Walker said.. "I don't think anything substantial is going to pass unless he tacks to the middle in a big way."

I don't think anything that 'tacks to the middle in a big way' will be substantial.

Wolf of Aquarius said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Wolf of Aquarius said...

Because the Republicans have been so stubborn in opposing any HCR, especially the Baucus bill, I am certain that the final bill will be substantially more left-wing than it otherwise would have been. With essentially no Republican votes, the Democratic leadership simply cannot afford to lose progressive support. The Republicans have strategically decided to sacrifice on policy in order to gain in the polls.

My prediction: Health care reform passes, but barely.

Pragmatus said...

Typical, Walker giving us the view from the boardroom of Humana, the folks that put the food on Walker’s table.

Wonder what he’ll do when Missy Naptime gets bounced from her job. He’ll have to go out (oh no!!!) and find a job himself.

What’s holding up the process of changing the temporary senator rules in MA? Last I heard the legislature and the governor were all for changing the rules—so why is there no temp senator from MA yet?

Bart DePalma said...

Megan McArdle ("I now put the chances of a substantial health care bill passing at 75%"). Actually, Megan's number seems about right. If I had to attach a probability estimate to health care passing, it would be that one: 75 percent. But I don't think it's as high as, say, 90 or 95 percent, and my sense is that there are lot of informed observers who do.

Whistling past the graveyard much, Nate?

:::chuckle:::

Precisely what "substantial health care bill" before the House or the Senate has even a simple majority of votes, nevertheless 60 in the Senate?

The House Obamacare bill with the public option does not. It lacks about 44 Dem votes.

The Kennedy Senate Obamacare bill with the public option does not. It lacks about 15 Dem votes.

The Baucus Senate bill taxing present insurance to pay for co-ops has managed to antagonize the singe payer crowd and the labor unions without picking up GOP support.

The only proposals with majority support in both chambers are regulations that prohibit insurers from declining coverage for preexisting conditions and from dropping folks with current conditions, and do not raise anyone's taxes or the deficit. This is a far cry from the Trillion dollar House and Kennedy Obamacare stealth single payer bills.

My question for Nate and all these esteemed Dem "informed observers" is where are the Dem votes? Give me the names of the Blue Dog yea votes.

The reason there are no majorities of Dem votes is that a majority of likely voters across the nation, with higher percentages in Blue Dog districts, oppose Obamacare. The intensity is about 2-1 against. Nate's "tie" is made up of polling of adults, over half of whom will not vote in 2010 and whose supporters of Obamacare live primarily in deep blue Dems districts. Hell, Rasmussen just found that Obamacare only pulls 58% support among uninsured voters!

The Blue Dogs are not willing to be the guinea pigs to test the left's pet theory that the 1994 slaughter occurred because the Dems failed to enact Hillarycare rather than because they offered Hillarycare in the first place and the voters rebelled against it. I am sure those several hundred thousand pissed off voters who just finished marching on DC are all bent out of shape because the Dems are failing to vote to enact Obamacare.

The Blue Dogs are hardly the only ones seeing this freight train coming. Joe Biden was openly worrying in a fundraiser today that a GOP takeover of the House in 2010 would mean "the end of the road for what Barack and I are trying to do."

Lord, may Joe be right about that one.

Walker said...

Humana???

My wife, Missy, is a wife and mother of four. That's her job. She used to work in catering.

I am, depending on the day, either a screenwriter, marketing manager, dancer, or choreographer.

I am insured through Aetna.

I pay the premiums.

There are elements of reform that need to happen. Obama can get a lot done...if he's willing to hedge towards the middle.

Wolf of Aquarius said...

@ BDP

Ahh.... Where to start?

"I am sure those several hundred thousand pissed off voters who just finished marching on DC are all bent out of shape because the Dems are failing to vote to enact Obamacare."

I'm sure you've seen this,
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/size-matters-so-do-lies.html
BTW, 70,000 does not equal "several hundred thousand".

And this,
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/how-to-poll-on-public-option.html
showing that a comfortable majority of American voters support the Public Option.

It surprises me that such a prolific poster does not even read Nate's entries.

shrinkers said...

It surprises me that such a prolific poster does not even read Nate's entries.

Some people only watch Faux News and repeat what they are told to say.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Blah, blah, blah
~~~~~~~~~~


let the Rep spamming and ad nauseam Rep minutia begin ...

BDP, thanx for not disappointing!

take care

p.s. when did you officially become a ditto head, just wonderin' ...

shrinkers said...

I'm surprised that so few pundits get it. That the polls show softening for "current proposals" because they've been told that the "current proposals" are moving away from things like the public option - which is incredibly popular.

When real health care reform passes, with a strong public option, it will be wildly well received.

BarackStar said...

This article mentions OLYMPIA SNOWE possibly voting for it and possibly as well GEORGE VOINOVICH.

My view is there are 6 possible Republican supporters of the bill (those who might vote for it, or just agree not to filibuster it).

1) Olympia Snowe-ME. Snowe is the name that everyone is mentioning, the only one who gong public in possibly voting for it. Odds 90%

2) Susan Collins-ME. Collins is Snowe's fellow ME Senator. The two often give each other cover by breaking from their party together. They are both equally moderate. Collins and Snowe are the only two current Republicans that voted for the stimulus bill. Odds 70%

3) George Voinovich-OH. Voinovich is retiring and has long been a moderate. He has no political risk to supporting it. Odds 50%

4) Dick Lugar-IN. A statesman, good friend of Obama's. The two co-sponsored a major bill when Obama entered the Senate. A possibility. 35%

5) George LeMieux-FL. LeMieux was appointed to the FL seat by FL GOV Charlie Crist (who LeMieux served as the Chief of Staff for) in replacing retiring Mel Martinez. This is a wild card. He says his main concern is that this doesn't affect Medicare in his aging state. He, like Crist is pragmatic and bi-partisan, has supported Health care issues. Would be more likely if Crist vocally supported the bill like he did the stimulus but I don't see that happening. Odds 20%

6) Charles Grassley-IA. Originally supported the bill an the public option but walked away from it when the GOP threatened to walk away from him in 2010. He is angry at Obama. He is ranking Republican on committee writing bill. Odds 10%

7) John Tester-TN. Mentioned as someone who might support it but he faces higher political risks then anyone..ia also hoping to (perhaps in 2016) run for President and this wouldn't help. Odds 5%.

tucker said...

Nate- It seems notable that Wyden's amendments seem to be all generating revenue with sin taxes. Is his idea of sin taxes on online gambling a back door to formal legalization there?

The other back door amendment to federal policy would be the Kerry et al amendment that would make health care benefits for domestic partners no longer count as additional income. If the republicans are really for tax cuts for everyone they should vote for the tax break for northeastern and Iowa gays!

Ian Monroe said...

Nate's percentage's remind of Salvor Hardin. :D

Inferno said...

I predict that this thread will have reasonable discussion, with liberals and conservatives alike ready to debate the issues in a rational, nonconfrontational manner.

...oh.

Anyway.

1) Nate was making an educated guess with regards to his estimate on health care reform passing. It may well be 95%, for all I know. It may be 55%. For all I know, the Senate may decide to not pass health care reform unless Max Baucus puts on a showgirl uniform, David Vitter puts on a diaper, and both of them perform a burlesque act on the Senate floor.

Don't treat the 75% as anything more than an educated guess. Because really, that's all it can be.

That said: There's a lot of contingencies. Does a filibuster have to be sustained simply by refusal to vote for cloture? If the opposition is so heated, would it be possible to call the Republican bluff and force them to read from the phone book at length? [A David Vitter joke would be inserted here, but I already blew it in the last paragraph.]

If it does pass - and yeah, I think it's more likely than not at this point; I'm just not sure how much more likely than not - I don't think it'll be greeted like we were supposed to be greeted in Iraq. I do think the Dems are going to take some hits. But I think eventually, it'll seek into the public consciousness. And when we revisit this again, we'll get the Republicans of that era shrieking about how you can't fix something that has worked so well for so long. ;)

PJ said...

Nate gives HCR 78 percent odds? Sounds like a good bet to me, especially after the hot summer we've had.


We know how anger works. It builds to a peak on a curve, then slowly drops off. It started with the presidential elections, took hold with the recession, mounted with the bailouts, the viral e-mails, the tax cheat appointees,the stimulus, then Gates. And lack of torture to vent collective frustrations, coupled with so many celebrity deaths we lost track. It was the hot, dry summer after Ike here.


The crescendo was the Town Halls, and the climax, Joe Wilson, who got to share his 15 minutes with Kanye and Serena, calling forth all columnists to use their best persusive powers to end the drama now.


Look for things to calm down a bit during this long HCR process and cooler heads (like Kerry?) start to prevail. Once civil discourse returns to the national stage, the truth will come out. It always does.


In the meantime, stay well.

MillardZFillmore said...

Actually, Wolf, if you look at the DC Metro ridership on 9/12, you'll see that at 437,000, it was 100000-135000 greater than the most recent five non-protest Saturdays. This would only count those who took the Metro, so I'd say an estimate of 200000-300000 is entirely reasonable.

http://www.wmata.com/rail/disruption_reports/archived_service_reports.cfm

jonathan said...

The comparable ridership from one year ago was 360,000, only 75,000 less. Which is not to accept your premise. In a Metropolitan area of more than 7 million, with dozens of events and goings on each and every weekend, it's awfully difficult to attribute the rise or fall of metro ridership on any one day to any one event.

70,000-75,000 is a phenomenally large number of people to assemble and spew hate in any society. Be rightly proud at the large size of your movement, and stop pretending that it's so much bigger than it is.

Lidian & Mike said...

You can cut the additional ridership numbers in half. Those numbers are based on entry/exit statistics. I think it's fairly safe to assume that most people who rode the metro to the rally also rode it back. They shouldn't be counted as two riders.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Whistling past the graveyard much, Nate?

:::chuckle:::
~~~~~~~~~~


After '06 and '08 and the current state of Rep discombobulation, this is a prime example of winger disingenuous smugness that always brings a smile when surfing progressive blogs.

and re: reasonable discussion, rational, non-confrontational manner. Doesn't happen in Washington, not happening at winger town halls, never happens at fixednoise, and the sole purpose of clueless Rep trolls burrowing their way in at progressive blogs is to be confrontational, sooo ...

but, but, but BDP is somewhat amusing, but again, not much of a challenge to refute, so somewhat disappointing and wearing thin quickly.

Opus 132 said...

@ Pragmatus

What’s holding up the process of changing the temporary senator rules in MA? Last I heard the legislature and the governor were all for changing the rules—so why is there no temp senator from MA yet?

Despite Republican delaying tactics,there will be a new senator by Friday or next Monday.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/09/19/senate_republicans_halt_debate_on_bill_for_kennedy_fill_in?mode=PF

Davy said...

Okay, can we stop beating the dead horse of the number of birthers who showed up in DC last week?

@Walker

Whatdya know? You might get better and cheaper health care with the passage of this bill.

BDP. It must really suck to be you. My sympathies.

bleepul said...

The delay is strategic. The public option will go as the economy goes. Dems are banking on recovery and so now want to slow the whole thing down. This blog has just become another source of propaganda. Nate, how much does the democratic leadership pay you now?

By the way, what the hell is a progressive? I think of lizards every time that term comes up ... but I guess maybe that's Geico.

Davy said...

Need I remind you skeptics of Nates track record on predictions? I'll take his hunches over your wishful thinking any day.

Progressive. Root being 'Progress' which is more than I can say for the party of NO. Conservative. Just what are you trying to conserve? An arcane manner of existence? Good luck with that.

bleepul said...

Lemmings also have a concept of progress. Lemmings,lizards, lemmings, lizards, hmmmm they both seem to work. How about a Lemzard? The progressive Lemzard and the republictrolls (or whatever you call them).

I prefer liberal (from the Latin liberalis, suitable for a free man) but you've f*cked that one up. Thus, I am forced to go with independent (Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant). In case you can't tell I'm saying you guys are as bad as Rush and Anne and the rest.

markymark said...

OK I said really bvery early on that it is too important to Democrats to get healthcare to let it fail. I still believe that to be the case.

Lets assess how the field looks at the moment. Something reasonably strong will get through the house. I am not worried there, despite some Blue Dog opposition.

I am not actually that worried about a bill being passed in the Senate. First off lets assess the 60 vote limit. Thats a 60 vote limit for cloture against a Fillibuster. It does not commit those voting to end the Fillibuster to vote for the bill in the end, so when assessing the 'Dems need 60 votes' meme, one has to consider those who might vote for cloture but against the bill in the end. The final measure is still 50. (Or 49 plus an abstention and the VP, whilst the MA seat is empty). Reconcialition is a way past the cloture vote, if 60 there is impossible. I think its a good threat to hold out there to encourage some moderates in both parties to vote for cloture. I would suggest its not a serious threat though. (Could be wrong there in the end, if the cloture measure can't be reached.)

I think the question is realistically what the bill will look like more than if the bill will pass.

bleepul said...

markymark,

do you sit on this website every hour of every day? man, i hope you have other windows open at least.

markymark said...

Barackstar,

I think the Maine Senators are moveable, I put Lugar ahead of Voinovich, oersonally, but Lemieux and Grassley aren't going to help any.

Your last name, John Tester is actually Democratic Senator from Montana. Not sure if you meant Lamar Alexander or Bob Corker, probably more likely Alexander, but if he does have any Presidential ambitions, it would be a courageous Republican who would help out the Democrats on this issue.

Davy said...

crickets

shiloh said...

bleepul said...

Nate, how much does the democratic leadership pay you now?

By the way, what the hell is a progressive?
~~~~~~~~~~


Had Progressive until 3/4 years ago, switched to Nationwide and saved a lot of money.

And speaking of lemmings er winger trolls, blee you said you are/were a recovering former Dem or some such nonsense!

Again, where have all the Reps gone, long time passing? Where have all the Reps gone, long time ago ...

Actually Nate's Dem rates go up proportionally to the amount of Rep trolls 538 attracts, so blee, try to spread the word among your fellow wingers. It's for a worthy cause. ;)

take care

Bart DePalma said...

Folks:

If comfortable majorities of voters and their Dem Senators and Reps support public option Obamacare, has it ever occurred to you to wonder why public option Obamacare has not even been brought to a floor vote in either chamber of Congress, nevertheless enacted to wide public acclaim?

One would think that Dems would be climbing all over themselves demanding to vote on such a popular measure to cement their 2010 re-elections.

One would think that hundreds of thousands of pissed off voters would be marching on Washington demanding that their Congress stop delaying and enact Obamacare forthwith.

One would think that Gallup would have Obama's approval rating somewhere above second worst among all 20th Century presidents for September of their first term.

Of course, tis assumes that one thinks about such inconvenient facts that mess with one's world view.

Mick said...

@Walker

"If I had to attach a probability estimate to health care passing, it would be that one: 75 percent."

Reading comprehension. In the last paragraph, he's saying that he has always thought, in the past, that the chances were at least 50 percent.

Pragmatus said...

shiloh asks…

“Where have all the Republicans gone,
Long time passing?”


Answer:

“Gone to graveyards, every one…”

More are making the trip every day.

Pragmatus said...

Bart De Pee…

If you ever write a comment that doesn’t require ridiculous postulations and contorted poll outcomes to make its silly point I’ll crap my pants.

No danger of that—the Party of No is real big on fantasy.

Pragmatus said...

Opus 132…

Thanks for the MA senator update.

Amazing how the Democrats/liberals/progressives here deal in reality, the GOOPers can only project possible rosy (for them) scenarios, which change daily as each fails to come to pass…

Pragmatus said...

New Slogan for the Right Wing…

“Today’s GOP—keeping the apoplexy doctors in business since 1994.”

vp said...

And the Senate seems anathema to inserting a broad surtax on high-income earners, as the House bill deigns to do.

Dear Nate,

The content of your postings is great, but please consider hiring an editor. I am sure there are many readers who would volunteer to do it for nothing.

Neil said...

Personally, I'm surprised that no Senator has yet taken the opportunity to insert an amendment ensuring that no Al Qaeda members will be covered by the health care bill.

Why would someone do that? Then they couldn't go on TV and say that Democrats want to insure Al Qaeda members.

World Vitamins Online said...

I would think that with little or no GOP support and liberal democrats having problems with this it has about a 50% chance of passing.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

If comfortable majorities of voters and their Dem Senators and Reps support public option Obamacare, has it ever occurred to you to wonder why public option Obamacare has not even been brought to a floor vote in either chamber of Congress, nevertheless enacted to wide public acclaim?

One would think ...
~~~~~~~~~~


Why? Health care insurance industry lobby owning politicians!

BDP, one would easily think you're a complete frickin' idiot ... and they'd be correct.

take care

Bart DePalma said...

shiloh:

Well, since the health insurance industry owns the corrupt Dem party lock, stock and barrel, you will of course be voting Green in 2010.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

shiloh:

Well, since the health insurance industry owns the corrupt Dem party lock, stock and barrel, you will of course be voting Green in 2010.
~~~~~~~~~~


No BDP, by reading my posts one should already know I'm a liberal independent w/a keen grasp of political reality ie the Green party in 2000 gave us (8) years of cheney/bush, easily the worst 8 years in American history as you would agree.

And speaking of agreeing, as one did not disagree w/BDP, one would easily think you're a complete frickin' idiot ... and they'd be correct. It must be true, eh. ;)

... and the truth shall set you free!

take care

Gleef said...

(Personally, I'm surprised that no Senator has yet taken the opportunity to insert an amendment ensuring that no Al Qaeda members will be covered by the health care bill.)

We need to put that clause into the strongest "strong public option" amendment, at least for Al Qaeda members that are foreign nationals (to avoid constitutionality entanglements). That way we can promise Blue Dogs and "moderate" Republicans that, next election, they could be portrayed as voting to insure Al Qaeda members if they don't support the strong public option.

Bart DePalma said...

Shiloh:

My party right or in the pockets of the health insurance industry, eh?

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Shiloh:

My party right or in the pockets of the health insurance industry, eh?
~~~~~~~~~~


?!?

as this reply makes absolutely no sense! ...

If one wants a response, please make another attempt, and this time using English, thanx.

take care

Davy said...

@shiloh

My party right or in the pockets of the health insurance industry, eh?

I think this was a weak attempt at bastardizing Patrick Henry. ie: 'My country; right or wrong, my country.'

I could be wrong but we already know that BDP is a little off anyway.

As you were.

markymark said...

Well if thats the case, I will see BDP's founding father misquote, and raise it to a founding father real quotation. Queue Benjamin Franklin

'A learned blockhead is a greater blockhead than an ignorant one. '

Inferno said...

That, and policy in Washington is probably at least somewhat to the right of what Americans actually feel.

i.e., Washington is more corporatist and just - in general - more Conservative (upper-case C) than Americans as a whole would poll if you really asked them how they felt. (So yes, Bart - while very concerned - is actually somewhat right in accusing the Dems of corporatism. Personally, I think the Republicans are more corporatist as a whole, but that's just me.)

I'm not just saying this on unfounded grounds, either. I mean, yeah, a majority of people support a "public option" of some sort (which automatically puts them closer to the Democrats), but a plurality of people also identify as conservative. Part of this is because "liberal" is a dirty word in the United States (see: the amount of conservative Democrats vs. the amount of liberal Republicans and independent voters), but part of this is because...well, people really are more liberal than they give themselves credit for, I think.

Also, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. And right now, the anti-health-reform lobby is the very squeaky wheel in Washington. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that some angry woman with a crazy glint in her eye waved an incoherent sign scrawled on the bottom of a cardboard box in the President's face. It wasn't that long ago that a Democrat couldn't hold a town hall meeting without being shouted down by people just like that woman.

Mike in Maryland said...

[Massachusetts] Senate passes successor bill

Final passage expected on Wednesday, September 23, 2009.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/09/state_senate_de_1.html

Mike in Maryland

jeffjrstewart said...

>" If the bill goes through reconcilation, a lot of process hawks will drop out. To name names, I'm thinking of Senators Snowe, (Ben) Nelson, Lieberman, Byrd, and Conrad, probably among others"

I don't understand why this is supposed to be a problem. OMG! OLYMPIA SNOWE MIGHT OPPOSE IT WHEN HER OPINION NO LONGER MATTERS!

Why is there so much focus on what this person thinks? For me, the whole pointy of reconciliation would be to tell Snowe, Lieberman etc to get lost and go ahead without them.

Amar said...

Be it on Health Care or Climate Change, the undemocratic oligarchic machinations of the U.S. Senate WILL be the undoing of this formerly great country.
Mark my words.

Rudy said...

Let us not forget that the market says NFW to passage of a health care bill with a public option this year. Odds of 4-1 against, based on Intrade trading. Put your money where your mouth is.

Nate's either suddenly subject to selective hearing, or has forgotten to pay attention to the market, Or maybe he's just being gentle with the loons who really think this is going to pass with a public option.

As has been well discussed previously, the only polls showing support for the public option are those that do not tell the truth about it being a trojan horse for single payer. Once people understand that a goverment-run insurance company wouldn't play on a level playing field, people don't like it. They like competition; they do not like unfair or stacked-deck competition.

This is all just the Obama braintrust running another giant bluff trying to scare up some takers.

If they really try to bring this to the floor, it will fail of its own weight as it gets exposure and the lies can no longer be spun away. Thus, the only hope is to do what they've been doing all along -- trying to cow support without substantive exposure of what's really in it.

Inferno said...

...except you yourself are subject to selective hearing, Rudy. ;)

Or rather, selective reading - if you're referencing the Intrade market that I'm thinking of, the question:

1) pertains solely to the public option. Granted, this is a centerpiece of the left-wing plan, so I'll give you that, but it doesn't cover other reforms being bandied about (ex., Baucuscare).

2) has the condition "to be approved before midnight ET 31 Dec 2009." As there are about three months left in the year, and everyone is hellbent on slicing and dicing Baucuscare, HR 3200, etc., etc. to bits and pieces, it's quite possible that health care reform passes in 2010.

tl;dr - Before you attempt to score e-points by debunking Nate, please do your research beyond looking for the words "health care" and "20."

Rudy said...

Well, Inferno, you sort of make my point. By trying to jam through such a complex overhaul that has so many highly controversial elements, this legislation dies of it own weight.

Once we cross over into the new year, it becomes increasingly unlikely that a public option can pass because we're creeping up on election season. Perhaps there will be a 12/31/10 contract later, but I doubt it would be meaningfully higher-priced.

Perhaps a more compact set of reforms can be passsed. I hope so. But outside the hallowed halls of the loony left, there is little appetite within congress to commit suicide by backing such an elephantine, half-baked lab creation.

Inferno said...

First of all:

1) Apologies to Rudy for taking my sweet time responding. Blogger blew up on me...

2) And also apologies for taking you to task over the public option distinction. I re-read your first post, and you did specify that.

That said, I had a huge essay typed up, but since no one will see it, I'll keep it short. But personally, I think you're assuming a lot of contingencies that may or may not be true.

First of all, you're assuming that health care reform has to be passed this year to have any electoral benefit. I do agree that the benefits drop off the longer the process goes on, but I don't think it becomes a HUGE, huge issue until at least mid-2010. The American public has a notoriously short memory with regards to issues of concern - they change over weeks, not months or years, usually.

Second, you're also assuming that there is a headwind against Democrats, and that passing health care reform is a liability. Though most people think it'll cost them more in the short run, approval of the handling of reform by the Democrats is essentially split (albeit slightly against them). Taken in pieces, many parts of the proposal have majority support - the public option, for one.

Finally, you're assuming that the bill (at least, HR 3200) is too big to succeed. And I think that's kind of subjective - if HR 3200 were 10 or 100 or even 300 pages long, I have a feeling that many on the right (and possibly even yourself) would have issue with the over-simplified proposal.

Perhaps I'm wrong. The Republican response to ARRA was essentially a 20-page pamphlet, correct? But, speaking as a solidly liberal Democrat...a subject such as reform of the health insurance system in this country is very complicated. So, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to page length on its own merits. (The contents are a different matter, but that's a tangentially related issue.)

Rudy said...

Benefit and liability are in the eye of the beholder, Ms. Inferno. If this POS was possibly as popular as you suggest, there wouldn't be such a groundswell of inaction and hyperventilation in lieu of bringing legislation to the floor.

It is being pushed forward despite being an electoral liability for many congressmen only because they all know it's dead if not passed while it can still be done with no Republican votes, and orders have come down from on high to do the Sisyphus drill. But it's already clear that there aren't enough Dem votes available to jam it through because of that fear of alienating constituents, and it's not even close.

This legislation has nary a chance of generating any middle-of-the-road support if it includes a public option. We can have duelling polls about macro public support for the concept, and we can argue what constitutes reality. Based on the reaction of congress to date and the many ways in which this legislation would turn our health system on its head, my instinct is that when push comes to shove, there will be few heroes willing to bet the future of the treasury and the lives of their constituents on government-controlled health care. The amateurish handling of the legislation process only adds to the unease about how likely it would be to foul up the whole medical system.

You're entitled to a different opinion, but I think you minimize the upheaval that is being proposed with a half-baked, untried plan. Page length has nothing to do with it -- it's the drasticness within how ever many pages. Regardless, there's too much story to explain, and we've already learned it cannot be explained well, only simpisitcally and misleadingly.

Incremental reforms are desirable, and could generate bi-partisan support. There are some excellent Republican ideas, but they are at odds with the grandiose Obama vision that would eviscerate the existing infrastructure. I think Obama would be smart to go the incremental route and declare victory, but he seems bent on the Hail Mary. Rots a ruck.

In the meantime, it's all huffing and puffing by congress so that motion looks like progress, but with no chance of moving the ball.

Inferno said...

Mr. Inferno. Mr.

Anyway. Aside from the fact that you gave me quite a few...talking points (I mean, "government-controlled health care?" Seriously?), I can probably pick off quite a few things just from using FiveThirtyEight's archives:

The public option: Is notoriously sensitive to wording. See Nate's post on August 27 about it. The two polls that met the given criteria had large majorities in favor (albeit, at this point both polls are nearly two months old and thus probably need to be redone), and the third (ABC/WaPo) had a small, but statistically significant majority in favor (52/46).

Public opinion: Is also divided. Fairly evenly, in fact - on the proposed bill, a small plurality disapprove (and by small, I mean 2 points), and an even smaller plurality approve of Obama's handling. Approval has shifted slightly in favor of both (though probably not by statistically significant margins - I think the shifts are within the margin of error, although pushing it), and Rasmussen was the only poll to trend downward (albeit slightly). Even Fox's poll trended in favor of health care reform (although it has the lowest approvals, and still a large plurality disapproving).

At any rate, I think we can both agree that we're probably biased. I'm biased in favor of health care reform; you're biased against it (at least in its current state). That's fine. But from what I've seen, I think it's more plausible that a public option eventually gets included.

Steven said...

All the huffing and puffing on the public option will be as nothing when an ad blitz hits which talks about how the bill (between the individual mandate and the subsidies) will put billions of dollars of public money in the coffers of the insurance companies.

The tsunami will be all the greater the more time advocates of the public option spend attacking the insurance companies.

Freedom's Truth said...

Mandates destroy healthcare choice and freedom. As such, any mandates are wrong and should be opposed.

Everything the ObamaCare Senate bill is doing was tried at the state level... and led to higher costs, busted budgets, and destruction of choice.

Bunning amendment to "“This Amendment Requires That Before The Finance
Committee Can Vote On Final Passage Of ‘America’s Healthy Future Act
Of 2009,’ The Legislative Language Must Be Publically Available On The
Finance Committee’s Website For At Least 72 Hours."
This tame amendment failed on near-party-line vote. This is an outrage!

This bill is hard to pass because it is a big attack on our traditions of freedom, and is a massive expansion in bureaucracy, control, regulation, spending and taxation (aka 'fees' and 'mandates'). The Dems are rushing passage because the bill stinks, and they need to get it out of there before its foul odor stinks up the halls of Congress.

Jasper said...

My sense is the Democrats won't need reconciliation. Snowe clearly won't join a filibuster, and I bet Susan Collins won't, either. By my count that means the GOP needs three Democrats willing to join a filibuster. I have no doubt they'll find MORE than three Democrats who will vote against the bill itself on a floor vote (but they can lose up to ten at that point), but are there really three who are willing to buck their party and their president and not even allow a vote at all? Just seems implausible. After all, a Blanche Lincoln or Ben Nelson can get ample credit from voters back home for fighting death panels and socialism simply by being on record for casting a vote against the legislation. There's no need to get all crazy and join filibuster for that.

Jerry said...

Howdy, all.
Nate - I just read through today's NYT/WSJ poll on healthcare reform and Afghanistan (paging DeMint?)
I, like many others I know, no longer have a landline. Do traditional polls oversample conservatives (I mean that from a pro-tech, early adopter POV, but not exclusively)? Any move to sample mobile users - via opt-ins/recruitment?
Related: This is conjecture, but do you think that reform would have had an easier time of it if the 85% Cobra subsidy had come after the vote? I worry that it was brokered prematurely when we could have used the voices of families unable to pay for their Cobra fees? (Yes, this sounds cruel, but humor my thought experiment.)

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