9.11.2009

Closing the Gap on Health Care

I had a brief discussion yesterday with a pollster, who asked me what I thought the chances were that Obama's speech on Wednesday night would increase approval for the Democratic health care package by 5 or more points.

I told him I'd give him even money. The pollster was quite a bit more skeptical, assigning not more than a 10 percent chance, and pointing out that it was mostly a Democratic audience that had watched Obama's speech -- an audience that presumably had supported the health care initiative already.

There is, indeed, some evidence that Democrats watched the speech in greater numbers than Republicans. And Democrats, of course, are more likely to have supported the President's health care plans in the first place.

But that doesn't mean that there are no swing votes are to be had among Democrats. On the contrary, they may be exactly the group that Obama had to persuade.

Take a look at the following:



On the one hand, we have Obama's approval ratings among the two major parties, as well as among independents, as taken from Pollster.com's latest partisan breakdown. On the one hand, we have approval ratings for the Democrats' health care bill, taken as a straight average of four recent (although pre-speech) polls -- Rasmussen, Pew, PPP and YouGov -- which provided partisan ID cross-tabs.

Although Democrats are quite naturally more inclined to have been supporters of the health care to begin with, their support -- about 70 percent -- lags well behind their overall approval of Obama, which still registers at about 85 percent. This 15-point gap is significantly larger than the one among independents (7 points) or Republicans (neglible).

The assumption I think we can make is the following: the most persuadable voters on health care -- the lowest-hanging fruit -- are people who still approve of the President but feel lukewarmly (or worse) toward his health care bill. Obama still has a lot of credibility with these people, and health care has become so central to his mission that it would seem that one or another of these things has to give: either their questions about health care will lead them to become disillusioned with Obama in general, or the health care numbers are due to bounce back.


After Wednesday night's speech, I think the latter possibility -- the health care numbers inching back toward Obama's overall approval rating -- is more likely. And the people with whom he has the biggest gap to close are not Republicans, not independents -- but Democrats.

These objections don't appear to be from liberal Democrats, by the way, who might think that Obama's health care bill is too weak. Rasmussen, in their most recent poll on the health care bill, looked not just at the partisan ID breakdown but also the ideological one. 87 percent of liberals support the plan, a far better number than the one Rasmussen showed (72 percent) for Democrats as a whole. It would seem, therefore, that it's primarily moderate-to-conservative Democrats who are most skeptical (relatively apeaking) about health care reform. If Obama has moved the numbers with this group, that would relieve a lot of the pressure on Democratic Congressmen in swing districts who fear that they're damned if they do support the President on health care reform, but also damned if they don't.

197 comments

Minstrel said...

Yeah, the idea that Democrats aren't necessary for Obama to convince, and thus shouldn't counted, is silly. He needs support, period, whether that comes from Democrats, Republicans or independents. He probably has the best chance to convince those Democrats who currently don't support the health care plan(s) working their way through Congress and there are a good number of them.

And when you consider that Blue Dog senators and representatives are arguably the most important votes in Congress, convincing Democrats in those districts/states, in turn putting more pressure on the Blue Dogs, argues even more strongly for the value in convincing Democrats.

markymark said...

I think that the problem is not whether or not the numbers will go up, because they will, but can the Democrats, from the President down, do enough to keep them from going down again. I think as far as that is concerned the issue is now to get something done instead of arguing about the minutiae forever.

Tony C. said...

I am one liberal on the opposite side of the fence described; I am disappointed with Obama, but if the plan includes a real public option I am for it. I am against it if it does not.

Obama is wrong; our goal is Medicare for all, and that is a single payer system, and a public option is the seed that can grow into that goal.

Co-ops, regulations and other such trite offerings will not do it; they won't have the power of a public option. My approval of the plan is notched up ONLY because he mentioned a public plan as a part of it. Now he waffled even that, but all the rest of it is crapola without a public plan.

His warnings to not focus on the public plan actually make me fear for it; it is like a used-car salesman saying "Don't focus on the broken engine, there are a lot more parts to a car than just an engine, and besides, most of the parts of that engine work just fine."

Well, the public option is the engine of health care reform; it won't get us there by itself, but we also won't get there without it.

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Jeff said...

Politico's coverage this morning makes clear that the "unity" effect is very fragile. Half of the Dems thought he endorsed the public option. Half thought he was throwing it under the bus. Obama hasn't figured out how to close that chasm - if he had, we'd have a specific plan. It is also worth noting that most polls show opposition to the bill is much more intense than support. I'd also like to know if there are any "likely voter" polls on this (which presumably would be worse for the president). Finally, a major social leg like this needs more public support that Obama's general approval ratings (which are about 50%).

PS The Wilson flap is absurd. Most of the furor is being ginned up by the left - all in keeping with the shabby "Rush Limbaugh" strategy dreamed up by Axelrod and Begala. (If you can't win the argument, try to stigmatize the other side.) But then we get complaints that the GOP isn't serious, is dominated by cranks, etc - as if highlighting those cranks wasn't the PR strategy of the left. Give it a rest. Wilson didn't shoot anyone - and he apologized immediately. There's something creepy about all of the outrage over insults to our dear leader (who, by the way, himself accused his critics of lying in his speech). Pelosi's "how dare you" face making was typically off-putting, especially coming from a woman who couldn't open her mouth without insulting Bush.

Dwight said...

Most of the furor is being ginned up by the left

I understand that in your world view McCain, and perhaps even the SC GOP, is "the left". Out here where taking Crazy Pills isn't the norm that isn't really the case.

MysticLaker said...

You won.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/11/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5302288.shtml?tag=stack

+12 from 40 to 52 %

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

The swing vote that Obama needed to sway are all the center-right Indis in Blue Dog districts whose support he lost over the Summer. Ginning up support in safe Dem districts whose votes are already assured is a waste of time. Obama lost the GOP back when the Porkulus was passed.

AP noted this morning that Obama's speech does not appear to have moved Congress to any appreciable degree.

Dwight said...

Obama lost the GOP back when the Porkulus was passed.

Obama "lost" the GOP when they devolved into a reactionary rump party.

shiloh said...

(8) years ago today America was caught w/its pants down!

hmm, who was in charge back then ...

carry on

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

Obama never had the GOP! Palin is still their hero, and during the campaign she accused him of "pallin' around with terrorists" like (gasp!) Bill Ayers.

Obama didn't "lose" any GOP members with the stimulus package or Bush bailouts, or indeed any foreign policy decision (which has been in lockstep with Bush/Cheney). The Tea Party fringe has been lobbing grenades into the Obama camp since before the election, and will continue to do so until they pass away.

By whatever addled process counts for reasoning in the GOP, they hate Democrats, hate liberalism, and just love footing the bill for the royal classes they will never, ever become. Obama didn't lose them; if anything I hope he just loses interest in mollifying them and gets on with the business of building a liberal government.

shiloh said...

Just noticed my previous post was made at 9:11 AM and no, it wasn't planned.

carry on

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

Obama is wrong; our goal is Medicare for all, and that is a single payer system, and a public option is the seed that can grow into that goal.

Thank you for being honest about the purpose of the "public option."

Obama shares your goal wholeheartedly. However, a majority of the country does not. Thus, Obama must lie to the country about the purpose of the "public option" by couching it in conservative terms like "competition" and comparing it to the Post Office v. Fed Express. Obama's problem is that folks are not taking is word on Obamacare and have actually read the bills

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

@BDP: Obama never had the GOP!

The GOP was shell shocked after 2008. If he had shelved the Porkulus and instead offered a health care bill that mandated that insurers had to accept everyone and could not drop anyone, expanded Medicaid to cover the working poor and implemented savings in Medicare and Medicaid with a trigger for full coverage of he uninsured if those savings were realized, then he would have had an enormous bipartisan victory.

Instead, Obama spent his political capital on the Porkulus payoff to nearly every Dem constituency under the sun and created the Tea Party rebellion.

Dwight said...

However, a majority of the country does not.

You have a strong Rick Astley, and Karl Rove, as apparently you are never gonna give it up! Where "it" is the misinformation. When presented with the scarified boogyman version of the public option it polls poorly. When a more accurate description is given, it polls strong majority.

But hey, see you next thread as you try once again to spread the misinformation**!

** By that I mean lie like a sidewalk.

Rudy said...

Freefun0616 accurately represents the coherence of the strategy.

Dwight said...

The GOP was shell shocked after 2008. If he had shelved the Porkulus and instead offered a health care bill that mandated that insurers had to accept everyone and could not drop anyone, expanded Medicaid to cover the working poor and implemented savings in Medicare and Medicaid with a trigger for full coverage of he uninsured if those savings were realized, then he would have had an enormous bipartisan victory.

Bullshit. The GOP is aiming at trying to pervent an Obama political "win". That is certainly Grassley's goal.

Of course there was the matter of putting first things first. Working on putting out the economic fire blazing when he showed up certainly seems the logical step in the interests of the country. The country's interests over playing political games.

Imagine that.


P.S. Is this the same "Porkulus" whose spending was slightly weighted towards GOP Congressional Districts?

MNLatteLiberal said...

"created the Tea Party rebellion"

There is no such thing.
Carry on,
~ Latte

JF Isher said...

Exactly what I've been looking for, thanks Nate.

Dwight said...

P.S. Is this the same "Porkulus" whose spending was slightly weighted towards GOP Congressional Districts?

Or is it the "Porkulus" that incorporated significant changes as consessions to GOP members but when it came time to vote not a single GOP Rep and only a few GOP Senators (The Traitors From the NE) voted for? Yeah, they were really in a bipartisan mood then, too.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

The GOP was shell shocked after 2008.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The GOP is still shell shocked. Did one see the Rep faces at the joint session. Blank clueless stares! ;)

carry on

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

Dwight is right and you (BDP) are just wrong. "Medicare for all" polls VERY strongly, and even more strongly when people are informed about how Medicare works.

Medicare has over a 90% approval rating from its actual users. Far, far better than the approval of ANY private insurance plan when the people that actually need it are polled.

Medicare is a single-payer system, and there is every indication that Medicare for All would actually be very well received by the general population. Let me point out the Republican party is heavily weighted toward those on Medicare, and that is the 90% approval group.

brown said...

"AP noted this morning that Obama's speech does not appear to have moved Congress to any appreciable degree."

It's funny you say that, because Politico has a headline this mornign that says the exact opposite.

Joe_In_NH said...

Lets be practical- Half a loaf today is better than the whole loaf in 40 years. Also, no Republicans will support any health plan even if they want to if they don't want to lose the next primary.

GROG said...

@Tony C:
I wonder what the polling numbers would be for "free car for all" or "free gasoline for all" or "free food for all".

I susepect people would overwhelmingly support those as well.

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

@BDP: Dwight is right and you (BDP) are just wrong. "Medicare for all" polls VERY strongly, and even more strongly when people are informed about how Medicare works.

You need to distinguish between polling designed to generate support for a political position and reality. If this polling reflected reality, then the Dems would be offering to expand Medicare to all and the GOP would be sorely pressed to go along. The Dems are not that stupid, though.

One of the problems with the theme of "Medicare for all" is that fact that Medicare is an intergenerational Ponzi scheme where each generation of beneficiaries takes more benefits from its kids than the beneficiaries peviously contributed in taxes. Once the kids can no longer support the Ponzi scheme, it fails as it will in a little over a decade from now.

If Medicare was extended to everyone and everyone had to pay for their own benefits and probably for others as well, the illusion created by the Ponzi scheme of something for nothing vanishes and you have the disastrous Canadian single payer system complete with rationing to make the system affordable.

Bart DePalma said...

brown said...

BD: "AP noted this morning that Obama's speech does not appear to have moved Congress to any appreciable degree."

It's funny you say that, because Politico has a headline this mornign that says the exact opposite.


Politico is not naming any Blue Dog who will now support the House Obamacare bill because of the speech. Drudge had an interesting post the other day naming the 40+ Blue Dogs who have come out against the public option. Right now, the House Obamacare bill does not have the votes to pass.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Juris said...

Obama clearly got a boost in public support from the speech. That it's mainly within the Dems -- good observation by Nate -- is perfectly fine from a general PR standpoint.

But we shouldn't overinterpret this as support for health care per se. A lot of people just wanted to see a less timid and less passive Obama, and they'll support him on anything that moves the country forward. That includes Dems and many moderates who voted for him.

On the issue of Obama's speech still lacking specifics, read Sean's terrific article posted earlier. Obama is still in bargaining mode. It's not wise to lay it all out in detail. But his bargaining involves TRADING on things, not necessarily cutting the guts and effectiveness out of each element of reform.

His statement about tort reform was very welcome to just about everybody and made the GOP Congressmen cheer. But will they "trade"? That is, will they take that while giving somewhere else?

That's what Obama wants. That how Congress typically behaves. It's called logrolling. Or "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."

The Congressional GOP hasn't wanted to play that game. Instead, they just want to be naysayers and obstruct reform, and "beat Obama."

Dwight said...

and you have the disastrous Canadian single payer system complete with rationing to make the system affordable.

Well damn, you didn't even wait till the next thread pull out another Big Lie.

Zahlman said...

BDP: As a Canadian citizen, I must call bullshit on your labelling of the Canadian system as "disastrous". It works. Plain and simple.

Have you ever actually even travelled outside the US?

markymark said...

Zahlman,

BDP is using the typical right wing tactic at the moment of assuming that if you criticize foreign healthcare systems noone will notice f you lie about it.

I've never heard of a Briton or a Canadian being refused treatment or being forced into bankruptcy through pre existing condition. I really haven't heard of too many Brits or Canucks that are unhappy in any way with their national healthcare systems or at all worried that they won't be able to receive treatment or that they will be filing for bankruptcy because of it. Thats the issue, in the US, that is very much in play at the moment. Taking the fear that many Americans live with away. And reducing costs while you are at it so that more Americans can afford health coverage.

Bart DePalma said...

Dwight said...

BD: ...and you have the disastrous Canadian single payer system complete with rationing to make the system affordable.

Well damn, you didn't even wait till the next thread pull out another Big Lie.


What is Tony's proposal for Medicare for all if not the Canadian system?

Zahlman said...

BDP: As a Canadian citizen, I must call bullshit on your labelling of the Canadian system as "disastrous". It works. Plain and simple. Have you ever actually even travelled outside the US?


I have travelled and lived in several countries including Canada. My countrymen do not travel to Canada for health care, but thousands of Canadian heath care refugees travel to the United States.

If you are satisfied with rationed health care, you probably have not yet needed the health care Canada rations.

FredZ said...

Dwight;
Obama lost the GOP when he became black.

Dwight said...
This post has been removed by the author.
GROG said...

markymark:

HIPPA already allows individuals with a pre-existing condition who has group health coverage to obtain new coverage with a reduced, or no, exclusion period for a pre-existing condition.

Dwight said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Dwight said...

What is Tony's proposal for Medicare for all if not the Canadian system?

OK then, Big Lies. I wasn't counting that one. ;)

My countrymen do not travel to Canada for health care, but thousands of Canadian heath care refugees travel to the United States.

O RLY?

So come on Bart, fess up. Are you really that ignorant or are you, as I suspect, just willful in this? ;)

Bart DePalma said...

Dwight said...

My countrymen do not travel to Canada for health care, but thousands of Canadian heath care refugees travel to the United States.

O RLY? So come on Bart, fess up. Are you really that ignorant or are you, as I suspect, just willful in this? ;)


I did not realize Canada had gone into the business of selling US customers heath care for a profit. Do Canadian tax payers and physicians know they are subsidizing health care for Yanks so their government can make a profit like the Castro regime?

Too frigging funny!

Bart DePalma said...

BTW, are Canadian citizens pushed even further back in their treatment queues so Yank health care tourists can jump to the front of the line? Afterall, we Yanks do not like to wait for our medical care.

Michael said...

Given that Bart believes a cheaper system with better outcomes is "disastrous", one wonders what his opinion of AMERICAN health care is.

Of course, since he's just lying, I guess it doesn't really matter.

Bart DePalma said...

Michael said...

Given that Bart believes a cheaper system with better outcomes is "disastrous", one wonders what his opinion of AMERICAN health care is.

Ask the Canadian health care refugees to the United States which system they believe provides better outcomes.

Dwight said...

I did not realize Canada had gone into the business of selling US customers heath care for a profit.

No, what you didn't realize is that health care in Canada isn't actually fully public!

The vast majority of hospitals are government agency owned, so there would need to be a large scale nationalization/near-nationalization of medical facilities in the US to approximate (which isn't what is being considered by Congress or Obama).

But there are plenty of private clinics, and the majority of doctors are privately/self-employed.

The issue of "wait times" (actually typically better for Emerg in Canada than the US, though specific location tends to be a larger factor, and dropping on other things since the underlying infrastructure and interprovicial barriers are being addressed) has to do with a larger rural/urban split/economics problem than actualy systemic problems. So this wouldn't actually lead to increased wait times since that is just on things that are already overbooked because of a local shortage.

But this has been explained to you before, right? Of course it has, and now you'll just whistle on past and show up another day and spew out the same ol' misinformation.

Davy said...

What's up with the Korean troll?

Dwight said...

Ask the Canadian health care refugees to the United States which system they believe provides better outcomes.

Sure, ask the few that you might be able to find. Like that woman that testified before Congress but later her story was revealed as a gross distortion? She freaked out and over reacted, dropping nearly a hundred grand needlessly. *shrug*

Dwight said...

No, what you didn't realize is that health care in Canada isn't actually fully public!

Oh, and Canada even has a private insurance industry. Though obviously a relatively minor one compared to the US. And yeah, they do the same passive-aggressive dance as their US counterparts. *shrug*

Davy said...

I find it hard to believe that any Democrat worth their salt would vote against any health reform bill after the speech. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised, after the tort reform olive branch, if more than one Republican got on board.

markymark said...

GROG said
'HIPPA already allows individuals with a pre-existing condition who has group health coverage to obtain new coverage with a reduced, or no, exclusion period for a pre-existing condition.'
-----------------------------

Is HIPAA available to all? No.

(I could be wrong on that but my understanding is that HIPAA applies to those who have lost their job, or move jnobs, its not a universally available insurance scheme.)

Davy said...

According to the poll that My stick licker posted (welcome back), the speech has boosted support for health insurance reform. But I suppose a cautionary reminder is in order. Bill Clinton gave the same kind of speech back in the early nineties. Look how well that worked.

janna said...

HIPAA (Not HIPPA) is a protection afforded to those who are members of group health plans. It does not apply if you have individual coverage, where most abuses in the market occur. And if you have a break in coverage of greater than 63 days, like if, say, you lost your job and took more than 2 months to find one, then Pre-ex applies again for the next 12 months. In group plans, no pre-ex for anyone after 12 months of continuous coverage.

Davy said...

Jeff said,

"The Wilson flap is absurd. Most of the furor is being ginned up by the left - all in keeping with the shabby "Rush Limbaugh" strategy dreamed up by Axelrod and Begala. (If you can't win the argument, try to stigmatize the other side.) But then we get complaints that the GOP isn't serious, is dominated by cranks, etc - as if highlighting those cranks wasn't the PR strategy of the left. Give it a rest. Wilson didn't shoot anyone - and he apologized immediately. There's something creepy about all of the outrage over insults to our dear leader (who, by the way, himself accused his critics of lying in his speech)"

Oh we didn't even have to gin up anything. The press was all over that. If we wanted to gin up something we'd throw in the racism card on top of the decorum issue. The 'creepy' is all on your side of the aisle. It was really something to see all of those pouting old white guys remaining in their seats during the speech while the rest of the world jumped to their feet in applause. It truly is the end of the world as you know it. And it's about time, too.

Davy said...

Correction: it's about f*$&#%g time, too.

Davy said...

Porkulus.

That's a Romulan ship, I think.

Davy said...

BTW, Yes, Obama slapped death camp Palin metphorically. She had it comin'.

Davy said...

And before you conservatives go making presumptions, I am acutely aware of what day it is. I mourn and bleed just like you. I went shopping for a 30.06 the day after 9/11 thinking I would just hole up in the wilderness and live off the land and shoot anyone who threatened me. Bad times. But at least I didn't use it as an excuse to conquer some undeserving, oil producing nation.

Jeff said...

Davy,
Yes, the press is very much part of the Axelrod strategy. Stephanopolos et al are part of the team. The Wilson flap is an idiotic distraction. He's getting more heat than the cleptocracy (Murtha, Rangel) who run the show in the House. Pathetic.

But like an honest man. The way you mentioning "throwing in the race card on top" says it all. Charming stuff. I'm sure it just a matter of time before its tried. And if you think the whole "world" is "jumping to their feet" applauding Obamacare - you have been living under a rock.

Simple question folks: if the damn thing is some popular, if the GOP is so out of touch, if the new progressive century upon us, then why can't you huge super majorities pass the stupid bill?

Davy said...

Would you like some vitriol with your coffee? Yes, thank you.

Davy said...

Jeff said,

"Simple question folks: if the damn thing is some popular, if the GOP is so out of touch, if the new progressive century upon us, then why can't you huge super majorities pass the stupid bill?"

You got me there. I'm still mystified as to why Democrats consistently shoot themselves in the foot. But, we do. Go figure.

Davy said...

BTW, I'm a 44 year old white dude. Got no compelling need to throw the race card around. I'm just calling a spade, a spade (pun intended).

Dangerous said...

If "public option" becomes a single-payer (it won't), or gets anywhere close, it will be because the American people chose it over more expensive private insurance. When Pres. Obama talked about public and private colleges and university co-existing nicely, that was the more apt analogy. Of course, public colleges (and all types of schools) enroll many times the number of students and private ones, simple because THEY ARE CHEAPER.

I graduated from a private college (University of Pennsylvania aka 'Penn') at the same time as the infamous GOP pollster and operative Frank Luntz. In this wealthy country, a superior brand of healthcare and related insurance will always be available to those who can afford it, but a popular public option will raise the floor and lower the cost for everyone, just as public schools have.

It's just silly to deny that the public option will be good for the public if they are able to save money. The GOP knows this, which is why they and their corporate insurance masters in fighting it so hard. Now if the other corporations -- the ones who have to overpay those same insurance companies -- flex their muscles, the game is over.

Davy said...

BDP said,

"Instead, Obama spent his political capital on the Porkulus payoff to nearly every Dem constituency under the sun and created the Tea Party rebellion."

Dude, Obama spent a great deal of capital averting a financial disaster left by the previous administration. Dem constituency?! Can you say Halliburton, Blackwater, etc.?

I realize how hard it must be to form a cogent sentence with those teabags constantly hitting you in the chin.

Statler, where are you? I need back-up.

Davy said...

BDP said,

"Drudge had an interesting post the other day naming the 40+ Blue Dogs who have come out against the public option. Right now, the House Obamacare bill does not have the votes to pass."

Drudgery. Nothing more need be said.

ThePegster71 said...

Can someone who is against reform please answer me this one question:

Why?

Seriously. I really don't understand why anyone would think that our current system is ok, when there are so many uninsured amongst us; when there are people who pay for health insurance for years, only to have their claims denied when they actually USE their insurance; when there are people who have insurance, yet go bankrupt because of exhorbitant costs? Why wouldn't any sane person want these problems fixed?

I'm embarassed that we are the only major industrialized nation that basically tells our citizens, "Screw you, I got mine!"

I read the comments here every day, and I am seriously dismayed that there are people arguing for the status quo. How can anyone in his or her right mind think that we don't have a huge problem?

How can this be simply a Democratic Party issue? Seriously, I don't get it. It makes no sense. Diatribes against The UK system, against the Canadian system. Against the German system. The worst of any of those is better than the current AMERICAN system.

I also don't get that the main people pushing back on reforming our healthcare are those who claim to be the "good Christians", as if Jesus would say, "screw the uninsured! Let them die!"

Maybe I'm overreacting, but when I sit back, read, and listen to what some of my fellow countrymen are saying, it honestly makes me want to cry. When did we, as a people, become so heartless? Why are some of us choosing to fight against something that will help millions of us be able to simply go to the f**king DOCTOR?

Bart DePalma said...

ThePegster71 said...

Can someone who is against reform please answer me this one question: Why?

Easy.

1) Obamacare will outlaw the HSA that allows me to shop for my own medical care and will outlaw my Mother's Medicare Advantage.

2) Obamacare will increase the cost of reasonable alternatives to my HSA through mandates. I will only be able to buy insurance the Executive deems "qualified." All other insurance will be outlawed.

3) Obamacare will tax me or my health insurance (which is the same thing) to pay for government health insurance and thus put my health insurance out of business.

4) When I decline to join the remaining government health insurance, Obamacare will tax my income to pay for government health insurance and give it to me anyway.

If you do not believe me, stop reading the NYT and instead read the damn Obamacare legislation.

America is supposed to be the land of the free. Obamacare is the denial of that freedom. Not just no, but HELL NO.

If you on the left want to enact a bill allowing you to buy into Medicare at no cost to the rest of us, go right ahead. Leave the rest of us alone!

Pragmatus said...

Nate…

You’re citing Rasmussen again. You ever hear the expression “garbage in, garbage out”? Google it. It applies to Rasmussen directly. Using his crap-results as a point of departure means you can only fashion crap conclusions from them.

Would you paste junk from Matt Drudge here without comment? Of course you wouldn’t, but what you don’t seem to realize is that Drudge and Rasmussen have the same agenda behind what they produce. Remember that being fair does not require giving equal time to nonsense.

Jeff…

You must be a month or so behind in reading your newspapers. In case you haven’t heard, Senator Kennedy died, so there is no longer a Democratic “supermajority” in the Senate.

Besides, Blue Dog Democrats are just as susceptible to the lure of money as Republicans have proved over and over to be. All that insurance lobby money that poured into Washington over the past few weeks (millions upon millions) wasn’t spent feeding parking meters.

Davy said...

Pegster71 said,

"I'm embarassed that we are the only major industrialized nation that basically tells our citizens, "Screw you, I got mine!"

Well said, sister (I think). When the US of A has the best and brightest of medical professionals in the world but is ranked as #37 in health care (somewhere beneath Costa Rica), one has to ask why there is so much opposition to reform. When 77% of Americans agree that reform is necessary, one has to ask who is opposing this and why? If there were ever an argument that says corporations have too much control over our democracy; then this is it.

This is a moral issue. It must be addressed and it must be passed. To the insurance cartel: the party's over. There's a new sheriff in town, and his name is Barack Obama

Davy said...

@BDP

I generally don't devolve into name calling. I prefer to pick apart arguments and make trolls look like fools. But in your case, I'm making an exception and you should feel privileged.

You're a real asshole.

Pragmatus said...

Bart De Pampers…

Someone wrote here yesterday that you are claiming to be a lawyer.

If your arguments here are any indication of your reasoning capacity, I have to ask—have you won any cases yet?

Further, a big part of law school is teaching the lawyer to react on an intellectual rather than an emotional level, whereas you can’t refrain from getting your pants in a twist every time you post here.

If you ever studied to be a lawyer it must have been through correspondence school.

Now that I have your attention, perhaps you can answer the question that I have posed to you perhaps a dozen times—if you are diagnosed with some dread, expensive disease, how are you going to pay for treating it? Your Health Savings Account better have a couple million in it, because you’re going to be paying full freight at any hospital you check into, and they’re going to want the cash up front.

I an only assume that since you have never addressed this question that you are ashamed of having only an HSA to provide for medical care in case disaster strikes. (I have to agree—it’s the dumbest option you could have chosen.)

Bartbuster said...

Leave the rest of us alone!

Baghdad, I would cheerfully leave you to die if you got sick. Unfortunately, you would just go to the local ER, and I would be stuck helping to pay for your care.

Dwight said...

Bart DePalma said...

Easy.

1) Obamacare will outlaw the HSA that allows me to shop for my own medical care...


If:
1) by "outlaw" means it won't satisfy mandate requirements
2) it doesn't actually provide adequate coverage so that you are in truth leeching off of the good will of society

But you know this, right? Because I know covered it before, lost track of how many times your crap is refuted yet you still insist on reposting it.

ThePegster71 said...

@Bart DePalma

Thanks for ignoring my entire query, which, as Davy noted, was coming at this issue from a moral standpoint.

Do you think that the people who can't get insurance just deserve it, unlike those of us lucky enough to be insured (for now, assuming we never get sick and actually need our insurance, or lose our jobs, or change jobs, of course)?

Are you ok with people dying because their insurance was cancelled? Are you ok with people going bankrupt because of medical bills? How about losing their homes because of a hospital stay? What is the justification for continuing to allow this kind of thing to happen?


This was the crux of my question. I'm trying hard to have a real conversation here, not throw out talking points. You can look and look and find maybe one comment from me on this site. I am speaking from the heart. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I truly cannot imagine where you are coming from, unless you truly don't give a shit that people are hurting in our current system.

I can't understand how anyone can see what is happening to millions of people in our country, and be against doing anything to change the status quo.

Davy said...

@Pegster71

Yeah, that's Bart. Hit him with a real argument and he bails. I can't even figure out why he posts here.

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

You need to distinguish between polling designed to generate support for a political position and reality.

That is an idiotic opening sentence; politic positions lead to reality, they aren't some fantasy sideline independent of what happens in reality.

The will of the people is "Medicare for all," it is a concise reference to an existing thing.

Medicare for all will NOT bankrupt anybody; it will do exactly what insurance is meant to do, have a very large number of people pay the average cost so the small subset that suffer extraordinary expenses are not bankrupted by them, or forced to suffer loss because of them.

While the average private insurance company diverts 30% of premiums into overhead, Medicare uses only 4%.

Your intergenerational argument is purposely disingenuous as well: If it weren't for Medicare these expenses would be borne by either the children of the elderly or the taxpayers anyway. So again, instead of putting the burden on individual young adults and crippling their careers or education or marriages or startups by forcing them to pay for the care of diabetic Mom and Alzheimer's Dad, we distribute the burden equally to society. The emotions of dealing with such situations is enough; it is better for society if the young aren't financially crippled in the bargain.

Like it or not, people grow old and require medical care. Like it or not, some level of costs are unavoidable. Like it or not, the best way of minimizing the economic impact of this unavoidable expense, and this is a mathematical certainty, is collectively. That means bargaining collectively and paying collectively, and that means everybody pays their fair share, which works out to the average cost of health care per person, regardless of age or pre-existing conditions.

So no, there won't be any bankruptcy of any generation, that is a complete lie. If we bargain collectively, we can reduce the cost of healthcare, and if we pay collectively and eliminate anybody profiting from the system, we will all get what we need at the mathematically minimal cost. That is the truth.

Bart DePalma said...

Dwight said...

Bart DePalma said... 1) Obamacare will outlaw the HSA that allows me to shop for my own medical care...

If:
1) by "outlaw" means it won't satisfy mandate requirements
2) it doesn't actually provide adequate coverage so that you are in truth leeching off of the good will of society


Leeching of the good will of society? Would that be like a bloodsucking bourgeoisie?

Good God, that tears it! Did you study to become a Soviet commissar or does it come naturally?

Listen and listen up good, my commissar wannabe...

How I live my life is none of your or the government's farking business.

The insurance I contract for to mitigate the risk of ill health is none of your or the government's farking business.

You can take your government mandates on how I should live and stick them as far up the appropriate orifice of your body that they will go.

If it galls you to live in a free country where the citizenry are (mostly) treated like adults capable of running their own lives, there are still some People's Republics to which you can emigrate.

Bart DePalma said...

ThePegster71 said...

Do you think that the people who can't get insurance just deserve it, unlike those of us lucky enough to be insured (for now, assuming we never get sick and actually need our insurance, or lose our jobs, or change jobs, of course)?

1) Luck has nothing to do with my having insurance. I pay for it just like I do all the other necessities of life.

2) The truly poor are covered by Medicaid.

3) The young uninsured can afford insurance but are instead gambling that they do not need it. In reality, all the young really need is a catastrophic insurance policy. However, under state insurance mandates, those are generally outlawed. The young instead are only provided with comprehensive policies which they do not need.

4) The wealthy uninsured are gambling that they can pay for the heath care they need. They are probably right.

5) The illegal immigrant uninsured should be deported.

I could live with a mandate that everyone at least buys catastrophic insurance ala auto liability insurance. That will solve the major problems the system is facing from free riders.

KaJo said...

Brian de Palma said: "Easy. 1) Obamacare will outlaw the HSA that allows me to shop for my own medical care and will outlaw my Mother's Medicare Advantage.

I just about fell off my chair laughing when I read this.

How could anyone be so stupid as to let their Mother sign up for Medicare Advantage (not!) instead of a Medicare supplemental plan?

I'm about 2 months from Medicare age, and there's no way in hell I'd sign up for what amounts to an HMO (managed care) for seniors, which is what the insurance-company-managed Medicare Advantage plans are.

Wow, Brian de Palma, you are doing your dear old mother a serious mis-service. Are you one of those people who believe in "death panels", because your dear old mother probably has to face one every once in a while under her current insurance-company-controlled adjunctive-to-Medicare health insurance plan.

Dwight said...

How I live my life is none of your or the government's farking business.

Fact of that matter, to some extent, it is. Because we live together, in the same country. Your fist, someone else's nose, and all that.

That's what this really comes down to. Your anti-societal attitude, the idea in your head that any awareness and acknowledgement of the interconnectively of the community is "communism". Let alone suggesting working in coordinated unison where the conditions are clearly optimal for that approach for the better of all (except when it comes arming up to kill Them I guess?). You'd like to take your marbles and go home ... only we are home and if it were not for the 'we' you'd have a decidedly smaller fist full of marbles.

KaJo said...

Yep, there's now no doubt. The poster known as Brian de Palma is one of those "Screw you, I got mine!" neocon Republicans, the scum of the earth.

How do we know? His comments posted @ 3:17 PM.

He said: 1) Luck has nothing to do with my having insurance. I pay for it just like I do all the other necessities of life.

He means: I'm independently wealthy, unlike the unwashed masses I have no empathy for. I don't really care how expensive insurance of any kind is, because I can afford it.

He said: 2) The truly poor are covered by Medicaid.

He means: And I don't give a sh!t that they have to practically give up everything but the clothes on their backs to continue to qualify for Medicaid, because if they get even a part-time job that NEVER has insurance benefits, just to put a better quality of food on the table, they lose their Medicaid coverage.

He said: 3) The young uninsured can afford insurance but are instead gambling that they do not need it. In reality, all the young really need is a catastrophic insurance policy. However, under state insurance mandates, those are generally outlawed. The young instead are only provided with comprehensive policies which they do not need.

He means: I also don't really give a sh!t that most young uninsured find out with some sense of shock that when their parents' insurance no longer covers them, ANY kind of insurance is beyond their means. After all, what insurance company with the profit motive in place will offer catastrophic insurance to the segment of our population most identified with risk-taking?

He said: 4) The wealthy uninsured are gambling that they can pay for the heath care they need. They are probably right.

He means: But I don't believe there is any such animal as "the wealthy uninsured". They're not stooooopid! I just said that to be the smug self-righteous @$$hole that I am...

He said: 5) The illegal immigrant uninsured should be deported.

Yeah, and you probably support the War on Drugs, too. Both absolutely stupid, senseless, aimless pursuits of neoconservatives with ulterior motives.

Bart DePalma said...

Dwight said...

BD: How I live my life is none of your or the government's farking business.

Fact of that matter, to some extent, it is. Because we live together, in the same country. Your fist, someone else's nose, and all that.


Neither I or my HSA is harming anyone else. If my fist was striking your nose you would know it. Your government mandates are not meant to preserve public safety, but rather to run others' lives the way the government sees fit.

Tony C. said...

Ditto Dwight.

Fact is, DePalma, you were never farking free to begin with. I don't know what fantasy land you live in, or think you live in, but in the USA the whole point is that we vote for legislators to pass laws and craft regulations to minimize whatever social injustices we perceive, and if you lose the vote you are not "free" to do whatever the hell you want.

Grow the hell up you infantile jerk; the adults in the room have decided the other infantile jerks running the health care industry have gotten too wild and greedy, and now they are causing harm, so now we are going to corral them and take their hurtful little exploitive game away.

You are free to voice your opinion; that's it. You are not free to be "left alone." You are not free to keep government out of your life. You are not free to abandon societal responsibilities you dislike. Taking care of the ill and unfortunate is one of those responsibilities, and if you don't like it, tough shit. Grow up. Pay your taxes. Eat your broccoli and go to bed early, young man.

Bartbuster said...

At this point Baghdad Bart is desperately hoping another thread will be posted so he can run away from this one.

Repeat the cycle ad nauseum.

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

Fact is, DePalma, you were never farking free to begin with. I don't know what fantasy land you live in, or think you live in, but in the USA the whole point is that we vote for legislators to pass laws and craft regulations to minimize whatever social injustices we perceive, and if you lose the vote you are not "free" to do whatever the hell you want.

Good heavens! In what frigging little red school house did you learn about our government?

Your assignment is to read the Declaration of independence and the Constitution front to back.

The United States is a constitutional republic. Our federal government is limited to express enumerated powers to avoid the very tyranny you propose. Both the federal and state governments are further limited by the enumerated and unenumerated natural rights of the People. Among those rights are the freedoms of association and contract.

Grow the hell up you infantile jerk; the adults in the room have decided the other infantile jerks running the health care industry have gotten too wild and greedy, and now they are causing harm, so now we are going to corral them and take their hurtful little exploitive game away.

Da Comrade Commissar! I vill obey the dictats of the Party!

You are free to voice your opinion; that's it.

So much for the other rights in the Constitution.

Are you sure my freedom of speech is also not subject to the Party's power "to pass laws and craft regulations to minimize whatever social injustices we perceive?"

You are not free to be "left alone." You are not free to keep government out of your life. You are not free to abandon societal responsibilities you dislike.

O...M...G. All I can say is that, if there are many more of you in the Dem Party, thank heaven for the Second Amendment.

Jeff said...

Pragmatus,
It's good to know that only GOPers and "blue dogs" can be corrupted by campaign contributions. Otherwise we might suspect that liberals like Obama (fund raising wizard, destroyer of the campaign funding system for the presidential campaign) might be beholden to the trial attorneys, teacher's union, Car unions, financial industry and so forth. What a relief.

Dwight said...

The United States is a constitutional republic. Our federal government is limited to express enumerated powers to avoid the very tyranny you propose. Both the federal and state governments are further limited by the enumerated and unenumerated natural rights of the People. Among those rights are the freedoms of association and contract.

Well if this actually ran afoul of the Constitution or Bill of Rights you might actually have a point. But of course any babbling about that would be even farther out than the crackpots claiming that Federal Income Tax isn't allowed.

But it doesn't, so you are just windbagging because you have a very juvenile understanding of civics and the Constitution/BoR.

P.S. Playing on the waving of the metaphorical Second Amendment pistol around ... only you are packing a starter's pistol. Your chest thumping theatrics will buy you nothing here.

Bartbuster said...

O...M...G. All I can say is that, if there are many more of you in the Dem Party, thank heaven for the Second Amendment.

Baghdad, you should back up your chest thumping with some action. You should stop paying your taxes. Then let's really see how far the Second Amendment takes you.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Listen and listen up good, my commissar wannabe...

How I live my life is none of your or the government's farking business.

The insurance I contract for to mitigate the risk of ill health is none of your or the government's farking business.


Bart, Bart, Bart getting a tad snippy at the end of another health care debate thread in which you lost, as per usual.

May I suggest to you that how you live your life is indeed the govt's business. If you don't pay your taxes, the govt. cares. If you commit a crime, the govt. cares. If you let your property go to to crap, your local govt. cares. If you threaten the president, the govt. cares. If you are denied emergency care at hospital, the govt. cares. If you are smoking in a non-smoking area, the govt. cares. etc. etc.

Indeed, the govt. cares about your welfare Bart ...

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Bart, supposedly your a frickin' lawyer and as such, it's time for you to catch a clue!

take care

Bartbuster, you beat me by a couple minutes re: taxes lol

Bart DePalma said...

Dwight:

Historical Tip: The income tax was unconstitutional. We enacted an amendment to permit it.

Outlawing an entire industry like the health insurance industry would almost certainly be unconstitutional. Regulating interstate commerce is not generally understood to include the power to eliminate commerce. This is very likely part of the reasoning behind the public option to single payer two step - create a rigged system where the government makes it impossible to stay in business rather than unconstitutionally outlawing an industry the way you socialists would prefer.

P.S. I am an infantry combat veteran who is very well armed. If Tony's socialist fantasy of a government of unlimited power that can run our lives any way it pleases ever comes close to actual fruition, get ready for a Second American Revolution.

For now, I believe it will be more than sufficient to exercise my current rights of assembly and petition with the Tea Party movement. A majority of Congress still pays attention to their constituents. There are a flood of Tea Party protestors descending on DC as I post who will again remind our Congress critters that they are our servants and not vis versa.

shiloh said...

Bart's a teabagger, Yes!!!

Bartbuster said...

There are a flood of Tea Party protestors descending on DC as I post who will again remind our Congress critters that they are our servants and not vis versa.


Elections have consequences, tough guy. Most of the Congress critters don't have to answer to you tea-baggers any more.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

P.S. I am an infantry combat veteran who is very well armed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


BDP, you have mentioned this ad nauseam ...

take care

Dwight said...

Historical Tip: The income tax was unconstitutional. We enacted an amendment to permit it.

I'm talking about now. Not 100 years ago. Plus only some forms of income tax on some types of income that was found to be unconstitutional. More specifically it was taxes on income from investments (like rental property) taxed in a "direct" manner. There was no issue on taxing income from work performed, etc.

Outlawing an entire industry like the health insurance industry would almost certainly be unconstitutional.

Strawman. You are stuck on this "outlawing" kick. Tip: Noboby is actually talking about outlawing selling health insurance.

That you are actually dreaming up all this Constitutial/BoR claptrap and you in a foxhole shooting commies in your front yard that are coming for you shows just how badly you misunderstand this all.

And Tony.

Of course if this was anything close to running amuck of the Constitution we'd be flooded with it. That there doesn't seem to be any use of it for political rallying, besides you, shows just how how far out this grasping by you is.

P.S. If it was a Constitutional matter you'd have no worries, right? Just let it pass and wait for the Supreme Court to sort it all out. :^)

Davy said...

Davy said (to Bart),

"You're a real asshole."

God, don't you just hate it when I'm right?

Dwight said...

Hold on a second...

P.S. I am an infantry combat veteran who is very well armed.

So all this talk about your HSA being "outlawed" is doubly bullshit, because you have vet coverage? Or are you enough of an asshole that you got a dishonorable discharge (or washed out in training and weren't actually accepted)?

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

Hey, I'm well armed too; I'm a wartime veteran too; but unlike you my brains were worth more than just stopping a bullet so I served my country programming computers in nuclear hardened bunkers in Omaha.

Nevertheless, I'd put your marksmanship up against the boys that would be stopping your insurrection any day.

I didn't say the government can run our lives anyway it pleases, that is your idiotic mind that cannot conceive of anything that is not an extreme. I said you are not free to do as you please. Although laws are not usually voted upon directly the majority of us decide for the rest and that decision is binding upon you; you don't get to opt out.

If we decide you will pay taxes for nationalized health care, bet your ass you will.

I'd be perfectly happy if the health insurance industry honored operated as it did in the fifties and sixties on 5% of premiums and returns on invested reserves with simple contracts they honored. Great. That's a service. It can be profitable. CEOs can still earn a million a year. Not a problem. All I want to outlaw is the plethora of deceptive and psychopathic practices invented since then.

Besides, this is not remotely socialism. We aren't saying the people own the businesses. Certain necessary activities are so open to corruption they cannot be done for a profit motive; including police protection and the workings of the justice system. We can't have judges or juries determined by how many convictions they return, we can't have the pay of cops determined by how many people they can arrest.

When insurance companies were honorable low-margin services, they approximated this situation; but they no longer do. People get paid more for deceptive contracts, denying claims no sensible reading of their policy would let them deny, and dropping people at the first flimsy (or non-existent) excuse. They are exploiting people and the slowness of our legal system, which they slow even more, so complainants die before getting to court. As a people we have decided that shit must end as soon as possible, and it will.

Pragmatus said...

Tony C…

Good points all. BDP isn’t a lawyer—lawyers don’t run off and hide behind a gun every time their points are undermined in a discussion.

Typical conservative mindlessness—“if this country isn’t run the way I want it run I’m getting my gun out!” They think they’re acting like “Minutemen”, when they’re really acting like Hitler.

Remember Bart—nobody wants to pay for the bills your sorry ass runs up in a county hospital. If you were a man of your word, you wouldn’t want that either. Better keep those cyanide pills close at hand.

Persuter said...

Your assignment is to read the Declaration of independence and the Constitution front to back.

Ok, I've got my Constitution right here, all ready to read it. What should I be looking for?

How I live my life is none of your or the government's farking business

Oh, I'm sorry, that's actually the "right to privacy", which is not in fact Constitutionally enumerated at all.

But thanks for playing, Bart, we've got some wonderful parting gifts for you... your very own copy of the Constitution to replace your defective one!

LinCA said...

@Pragmatus.....

Harold Abraham DePalma (aka Bart) is actually an ambulance chaser

ThePegster71 said...

LinCa, you didn't read his website properly. He's defense counsel. It would make more sense the other way around, but no dice.

Oh, and Bart, if that really is your practice - you might want to tone down the vitriol in case someone local gets ahold of your comments. Just sayin'. Assuming you really are an actual attorney.

Mike in Maryland said...

Bart DePalma said...
and you have the disastrous Canadian single payer system complete with rationing to make the system affordable.

Bart the Palmist (er, I mean the stupid Palma):

There actually ARE cases of rationing of medical services in the Canadian system that do not exist in the US system.

The shock and horror of a liberal saying that is probably causing you to have a heart attack, isn't it?

The reason? It's mostly in organ and tissue transplants, especially corneal transplants.

You see, in the US, decades ago eye banks were set up, and people were heavily encouraged to donate organs and tissues when they died. It's so universal that people have the option (hint - the word 'option' means 'you have a choice') to notate their decision to donate organs and tissue indicated on their driver's license, or state ID card (as the case may be), in most states.

In Canada, as in most of the world outside the US, there has not been any campaign to get people to make organ and/or tissue donations after their death (even though there are extremely few religions that have any theological prohibitions on organ donation). Because of that, there is a greater lack of organs and tissues for transplant available in countries other than in the US (including Canada), and in fact, people are put on a wait list for when one becomes available.

So yes, while in certain circumstances there is rationing in the Canadian system, it is not because of economics (your 'to make it affordable' statement), but availability - specifically the lack of availability of tissue to transplant.

Oh, and one more thing - cornea tissue for transplant does not have to be matched for Rh factor, blood type, or any other genetic factor. It does not have to be matched for sex of donor and recipient. It does not have to be matched for age of donor and recipient to make sure they are close to the same. The only thing that has to be checked is to make sure there is no disease, bacteria, virus, etc., in the cornea, and that it is in a viable, healthy condition.

So congratulations for making a partially correct statement. But then you totally screwed it up with LIES as to why.

Mike in Maryland

The Religious Left said...

Yes, it's bitch slap Bart day here at 538! Come one, come all, honey, grab the kids, while Bart gets pissed off and shits his pants and goes out shooting in a Second Amendment orgy of frustration...

out of my cold dead hands... my meth pipe... sorry, my sacred rifle which I want to enforce my rights to privacy and make sure no ho's is havin' no abortions... respect life with a gun, that's it... you threaten me and I'll, I'll shoot ya, just like in the movies.

Fucking birdbrain, lying piece of shit, either you didn't serve or you were dishonorably discharged with your HSA.

WHO IS THREATENING TO TAKE YOUR GUN AWAY, BART? ARE YOU HEARING VOICES? CAN YOU FEEL YOUR TONGUE? WHY DO YOU THINK SOMEONE IS OUT TO GET YOU?

Dr Commissar

JB said...

Too funny. Bart's a DUI lawyer, so I would imagine that he believes that DUI laws are unconstitutional!! You know, that's an example of the government poking into people's "private" lives and telling them how they have to live.

Libertarians crack me up every time, claiming to believe that they should be able to do whatever they please. And then playing the "and I am heavily armed" card when that fails. It's really simple, Bart: if you want to be able to do whatever you please, then you better head for the wilderness and begin a new life as a total hermit. That is the ONLY way you are going to get even remotely close to that "ideal", and even then... you're not gonna have it.

LinCA said...

@ThePegster71...

I did read his site (enough anyway to figure out what he was). I just don't know a derogatory term for a defense attorney. I took some liberty. So sue me.

Although, according to some it is derogatory for any attorney.

The Religious Left said...

Of course he's in El Paso County. Along with Doug Bruce and James Dobson... and this peculiar old fart named Ed Bircham who takes out ads in the CS Gazette blaming 9/11 on the Berkeley city council. (Berkeley? Really, I thought, don't you mean Boulder, Ed?). Owns a copy shop on N. Nevada. Huck an egg at the window the next time your in CS.

Yeah, umm, Bart, stay the fuck away from my mom. She's the type of card carrying socialist librul RN that'll smack your ass down, gun or not, going to door to door in CS for Obama (112,000 El Paso Country votes, I recall). Then she'll patch you up, because, of course, she's an RN.

No one is saying anything about nurses in all this health care debate. My mom is one. She's like Sean's mom. Backbone of the Democratic Party. Worked for 40 years, doing all the work, kissing gold playing doctor's asses and making about 1/100th the money, finally got sick of the hospital bullshit- it's a body count turnover/disease maintenance system, not a health care system.

These Teabagging pinheads are scared of... my mother, the evil socialist commissar, who has a heart of gold. Thppppt. What a bunch of willfully ignorant freaks!

Now they ARE scared because the Democrats are about to rally around Obama and get something done WITH the GOP, WITHOUT the GOP, or IN SPITE of the GOP. Get used to it you flag-waving, obstructionist turdballs.

LinCA said...

.... and he's too busy to watch Obama's speech because: "I am in the middle of a trial and was not about to waste my time watching Obama misrepresent and lie again last night"

Yet he has plenty of time to spew nonsense on his own blog and 538.com. Go figure.

The Religious Left said...

I meant "golf" playing doctors... ahem...

oh, and there's plenty o' military in CS too, even counting the Carson GI's over in Iraq. Those poor guys, played for pawns by BushCO (why are there so many goddamn pawn shops in Colorado Springs, I mean, the place is the capital of "Non Profit" Christian groups and pawn shops. One uses the military like a dirty whore, the other sucks the rest of their px money out of them (in that order). The AF dudes are also there, all over actually- Space Command, NORAD, Peterson Field, AFA... place is a mountain fortress...grew up hearing that we were target numero uno for Soviet ICBM's, so there was no point in crawling under our desks. Easy on the Communist name calling.

Yeah, Barty, you go hole up on Rampart Range or Monument Hill and wait for the rapture. Don't ya come up into South Park, though, as Cartman and Kyle and our neighbor Jack might haul on your ass. Jack is ex military too. Lives in a dome at 9500 feet. Watch out, he's a librul with a gun and a wood carving shed and a bunch of rabbits.

Sheeit, I grew up listening to your kind of quasi-libertarian, don't wanna pay for nothing, poverty-in-the-head double speak. Brainwashed by the corporate establishment, false patriotism, religion on your sleeve, don't wanna support schools, don't wanna healthy society, don't want nothing but your goddamn guns and a Bible. At least you can use the Bible for toilet paper when the Apocalypse happens so many of you so wistfully dream about.

Mike in Maryland said...

Bart DePalma said...
Your assignment is to read the Declaration of independence [sic] and the Constitution front to back..

Bart the Palmist (er, I mean the stupid Palma):

I beg to differ.

What parts of the Declaration of Independence contain laws that are enforceable in the United States?

You claim to be an attorney. What judge would accept a legal argument based on the Declaration of Independence, such section of the Declaration of Independence in clear antagonism to the Constitution?

If you claim that any portion of the Declaration of Independence can trump the Constitution, you prove one of two things:
1. You are one piss poor attorney; or
2. You are not an attorney.

As an example, many attorneys prior to the passage of the 13th Amendment tried to get slavery outlawed throughout the United States under the Declaration of Independence's statement that "All men are created equal". Didn't work as a legal argument on a national level (although it did as a moral argument in many states, on a state level), as the Constitution made it clear that even the importation of slaves was OK for 20 years after ratification of the Constitution. Slave owners could travel throughout the United States with their slaves (remember, the courts ruled slaves were 'personal property'), and not have the slaves freed in the non-slave states. Slavery throughout the United States didn't end until the passage of the 13th Amendment.

Mike in Maryland

The Religious Left said...

Speaking of Ambulance Chasers, I have a real life account with an insane one. I'm actually writing a book about it- on tour with The Who on their Quadrophenia Tour in 1996 and my friend and I, traveling with art t-shirts, wind up in Cleveland, guests of one Howard S., Esq, who as it turns out, is a crack fiend and... drumroll... and AMBULANCE CHASER. He convinced me to fake an injury after being rear ended on the Ohio Turnpike (no shoulders on the road, what brilliant civil engineering). While we wait for the EMS, he's chatting it up with both of the other parties in the collision, offering to represent both. I go in the ambulance, they shred my only good Levis, and I sit in an ER for four hours before, lo and behold, our new friend the Ambulance Chaser is being wheeled in by my friend. He goes from near comatose to in-the-nurse's face in about 20 seconds flat. We're back in the examination room, waiting for the doctor, and he's doing pushups on the bed rails.

We left Howard to go back to Colorado and regroup shortly after the ensuing evening, which consisted of driving around in a lake effect snowstorm and looking for the titty bar where he wants to watch closed circuit TV of the Tyson-Holyfield fight (the one where Tyson turned into a cannibal and ate off part of Holyfield's left ear).

I never saw a dime of that insurance money and I am really thankful I did not. Howard won 5 grand on that fight. Go figure.

The Religious Left said...

Wait, Bart's in Woodland? Jesus Fuck! He's halfway to our land! Get the napalm ready!

Ginny in CO said...

TRL

Wow, another RN like me? Boomer who has spent 32 years in this health care bidness while it deteriorated into a travesty.

It's literally killing me. After a half a century of really good life style habits, my employer would not let me leave when I was having some new, strange pain in a foot. 14 months later, 8 and a half in one of those walking boots trying to get the stress fracture to heal, all my efforts were derailed. It led to one medical problem after another. Last January my COBRA payments went from 425 a month to 650. Over half my mortgage payment. The bust had cut my agency work to 1/3 to 1/2 of my previous income.

So now I have no health insurance, have just lost a 2 day a week job and frankly have no interest in being a nurse any longer. Unfortunately, the time between paying taxes and dying can stretch on for many years. Or as Janis put it:

"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose."

WV: crainti. Bart's brain?

Mike in Maryland said...

TRL and Ginny,

I see that both of you are RNs and live near our 'good friend' de palma. Let's all pray that our 'good friend' de palma somehow needs a shot (medical, with a sterile needle - VBG).

Either of you know one of those stereotypical Head Nurses that long ago forgot how to insert the needle with little to no pain to the patient? (Although from my experience, those types of HNs are real, not stereotypical.)

We'll then be able to sick that stereotypical HN onto our 'good friend' de palma to give him that shot he needs, and at the same time, inflict on him a dose of reality.

Mike in Maryland

The Religious Left said...

No No, I am no RN, it's my MOM who is an RN at a local college. She used to work at Memorial and before that Penrose. She was trained in the old school ("care for the patient and help them get better": what a concept!). She got fed up with the way things were turning: pharmaceuticals and high technology for every last little thing instead of common sense, the hospital admin just wanting to get people through the beds as quickly as possible, etc, you know, ProfitCare.

Odd that we have private contractors who are increasingly running the show with a)the military, b)prisons, and c)hospitals and who are really just concerned with turning a profit and commodifying human suffering. Somehow, I know Cheney is behind all this.

markymark said...

Just to put BDP's mind at rest here is what the American College of Physicians say about HSAs and HR3200

'7. Does H.R. 3200 prohibit private insurance and health savings accounts?
No. Persons and small businesses that are eligible to purchase coverage through a health exchange would be able to choose from a wide variety of health plans, all of which would be provided by private insurance plans, with the addition of a public plan option and potentially, a member-run non-profit health insurance cooperative. As noted above, the independent Congressional Budget Office estimates that the vast majority of Americans will be covered under private insurance, with only a relatively small number enrolled in the public plan. Health Savings Accounts, as they are today, would be able to market themselves to the public and enroll persons who choose to get their coverage through an HSA.
H.R. 3200 will require that all insurers, whether offered through an exchange or outside it, comply with insurance market reforms, including prohibitions on excluding persons with pre-existing conditions, guaranteed renewability, and modified community rating. ACP policy has long favored such reforms. Individual insurance companies will eventually have to comply with such requirements. The legislation provides for a “grandfather” period, though, where people can elect to keep their current individual coverage even if it doesn’t meet the new requirements.'

http://www.acponline.org/advocacy/where_we_stand/access/hr3200_faq.pdf

(I am assuming that the ACP have some idea of what they are talking about!)

Tony C. said...

EMAIL YOUR CONGRESSMAN.

As I just did again. Insist on a robust and competitive Public Option, without Delays, without Triggers.

I told my congressman if he voted for any bill without a public option, or voted for any multi-year delay before implementation or any trigger of any kind on the public option, I would campaign against him in the primary and withhold my vote in the general. I will organize my family and friends to vote for any primary opponent he might get.

And this is what I will tell them: There is no chance in hell the Democrats lose the House in 2010; so if our congressman proves he is a corporate lobbyist shill, it is safe to throw him out of office, elect an ineffectual Republican for two years, and then elect a REAL Democrat in 2012 that is not being paid off by the VAMPIRES in the health care industry.

I'm serious about that, better to suffer two years with no representation than two more years of utter betrayal. Any Democrat voting for impairing the Public Option in any way is a traitor to liberal principles and should be voted out of office next year.

EMAIL YOUR CONGRESSMAN.

LFC said...

Tony C. said... If he had shelved the Porkulus and instead offered a health care bill that mandated that insurers had to accept everyone and could not drop anyone, expanded Medicaid to cover the working poor and implemented savings in Medicare and Medicaid with a trigger for full coverage of he uninsured if those savings were realized, then he would have had an enormous bipartisan victory.

I just read this comment and burst out laughing. I guess Tony C. doesn't remember that the right first started blaming Obama for the economy before he was actually inaugurated.

The GOP has been reduced to the frothing rump of the larger party it used to be. The Republicans in Congress knew that they were going to fight Obama on everything the day after the election. No bipartisan agreement was ever possible with this crowd.

Think of the positions they've thrown over already, and he hasn't even been in office for 8 months:

- "Death panels" were written in by a Republican. It was supported by the GOP (and Palin as governor), now they're against it.

- The GOP has been trying to gut/privatize Medicare for decades. Now? Protect it 100% as is at all costs, because Obama said he wanted cost savings.

- Addressing nation's schoolchildren and telling them to work hard was OK for Reagan, George HW, and George W to do, but horrible for Obama.

The only coherency left in the GOP is that whatever Obama says or does, say or do the opposite.

Bart DePalma said...

Folks, you may want to take a gander at the news. Today, between 1-2 million Tea Party patriots are marching on the capital to put a stop to the madness.

Among likely voters, Rasmussen found a tiny 2% bump in support for Obamacare after Obama's speech to Congress, with a plurality still opposing and far more strongly opposing than strongly supporting.

Our representatives proceed with this madness at their electoral peril.

yologuy said...

1-2 million? You Lie!!

The Religious Left said...

FreedomWorks Foundation, a conservative organization led by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, organized several groups from across the country for what they billed as a "March on Washington."

A couple thousand ≠ 1-2 million

Wishful thinking, Bart.

The Religious Left said...

I notice they still love the Al Jolson clown face of Obama. Real tasteful.

What a bunch of racist freaks. Where were they when W was raiding the treasury to start a war under false pretenses?

The Religious Left said...

From the Washington Post:

"Conservative protesters by the tens of thousands gathered in downtown Washington on Saturday and marched to Capitol Hill...Participants in the demonstrations span the spectrum of conservative anger at Obama, including opponents of his tax, spending and health-care plans and protesters who question Obama's U.S. citizenship and liken his administration to the Nazi regime."

Real productive comparing it to the Nazis. That's TENS OF THOUSANDS, Bart. Maybe 30,000 from what I've read. Wouldn't fill half of Mile High Stadium, dude.

Astroturfing dorks.

Bart DePalma said...

Folks, those were television news estimates, not mine. Supposedly, the police have the number at 1.3 million. ABC News is reporting 2 million. Of course, the Dem media may simply be quoting the previously released Dem estimate of 2 million simply to claim that the actual numbers were below expectations.

If you want to see part of the crowd with your own eyes, I and several other conservative bloggers have photos of the miles long crowd strung out from the Mall. It is enormous.

Of course, the lefty blogs are ignoring it.

The Religious Left said...

Ironic too, Bart, that some of the signs I see held up say: "Trade Freedom for Security... You Will Have Neither."

Umm... hmmm... how do I put this...
that's precisely what the MILLIONS of protesters to Bush's ILLEGAL war were saying.

Wow... how cogent a message, how well formed the thought, how aptly put... somehow the discussion of health care now threatens their freedom and security. Bizarro.

You brainwashed folks really do chirp away with the 1984 DoubleSpeak, I must say. Not that it makes an iota of sense, except for the fact that you want Obama to fail at all costs.

Davy said...

{sigh} Bart,

A democracy is the will of the majority, not the decibel level of the minority. It doesn't matter how loud your tantrum is; you are still in the wrong. The people recognized it and they voted for change. Change is difficult. Sometimes it's scary and uncomfortable but, in the long run, it's necessary.

Your fear of a potential black, socialist planet will soon be laid to rest. And your words, my friend, will be relegated to the desktop trash bin of history. Click...

The Religious Left said...

If they say it on TV, it MUST be true!

ABC:"Conservative protesters by the tens of thousands gathered in downtown Washington on Saturday and marched to Capitol Hill..."

Fox:"Tens of thousands of people marched to the U.S. Capitol on Saturday, carrying signs with slogans such as "Obamacare makes me sick..."

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- On the final stop of the Tea Party Express, tens of thousands marched to the U.S. Capitol on Saturday to protest health care reform, higher taxes and what they see as out-of-control government spending.

Davy said...

If I may, I'd like to quote one of your own: "YOU LIE!"

It's not as if we weren't living under a lie for the past eight years or anything so here's an old axiom that bears re-stating: 'you can fool all of the people most of the time, most of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of us all of the time'.

Tony C. said...

LFC: I Did Not Say That! Bart Did.

I didn't say that, Bart DePalma said that in response to one of my posts. I'm on your side, dude!

signed: Victim of Friendly Fire.

The Religious Left said...

Not seeing MILLIONS anywhere, Bart.

Someone utters "millions" on TV, where journalistic standards are out the window.

And to top it all off, you quote Rasspublican. Ha!

Davy said...

@Religious Left

I don't think that's Jolson. I think it's the Joker from Batman. Just as offensive to be sure.

markymark said...

BDP might wanna do some fact checking before posting in future. Wrong about HSAs wrong about numbers on the march, (20-50,000 seems to be the estimate in a wide range of news sources I just checked).

Lets put that number into perspective. 46 years ago 200,000 people marched on Washington for race equality. Estimates range upto 1.8 million turning up to the Obama inauguration. I'd imagine in 13 cities around the country 50,000 + will turn up to support a football team.

Not an insignificant number but neither is it that impressive.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


BDP, It's Sat., college football !!! get w/the program! Plus tonight the final race for the chase at Richmond.

If lefty blogs are ignoring it, relocate to a conservative blog. No muss, no fuss and 100% lies, you'd be in hog heaven Bart, trust me.

and For now, I believe it will be more than sufficient to exercise my current rights of assembly and petition with the Tea Party movement. BDP, I thought you were gonna be there in person to give us live updates.

bwahaha

BDP really, when did you turn into PK, TommyReport, Walker etc. Lately, you've been just your average, common garden variety troll.

p.s. one must of had a really, really hard time in the U.S. infantry in Iraq where they don't allow assembly or petition, eh.

Yea, most combat veterans don't brag about their service. Better watch out, next thing you know, some fool bigot politician from South Carolina will be yelling, You Lie!

take care

Tony C. said...

@Davy:

It seems the right-wing nutjob Republicans are fooled all of the time. I would pity them their astounding level of stupidity if it weren't so harmful to the rest of us.

They are so thoroughly fooled that the worst thing that can happen to them is getting exactly what they are so vociferously demanding. Isn't that just the epitomy of irony?

Davy said...

From the AP two and a half hours ago:

"WASHINGTON - Thousands of people marched to the U.S. Capitol on Saturday..."

Nice Astroturf (TM). It's the Thousand White People march. Just when I think I can't be more appalled at my country.

Tony C. said...

Typo: Epitome of irony. Sorry.

yologuy said...

>If you want to see part of the crowd with your own eyes, I and several other conservative bloggers have photos of the miles long crowd strung out from the Mall. It is enormous.<

I've blown up those photos, and they are obviously photoshopped, you can see the same faces over and over!!

Ah, memories.... :)

Davy said...

Where's Waldo?

:-D

Davy said...

@Tony C

Always had trouble with that word. Dichotomy is another.

Davy said...

I'm with Shiloh. I think I'm going to see if I can't find Alabama kicking somebody's a** on the TV machine somewhere. Roll Tide!

Opus 132 said...

Once again a troll appears and posters can't feed it fast enough.People,it's becoming an all-too-common sight,one that is,sorry to say,totally sickening.

We liberals are rather masochistic at times!

shiloh said...

Opus 132 said...

Once again a troll appears and posters can't feed it fast enough.People,it's becoming an all-too-common sight,one that is,sorry to say,totally sickening.

We liberals are rather masochistic at times!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Well then, you can relocate also. This is the frickin' internet, not a joint session of congress, chill!

Oh wait ...

Some folk take words typed on a keyboard so damn seriously, go outside, smell the roses!

take care

Davy said...

@ Opus

I kinda like troll hunting. I love it when their heads explode and they bleat like goats all over their posts. All one needs is a keyboard and a compelling argument. I've already got a couple of trophy wins over PK and MR. Working on BDP but he chickens out whenever I catch him in a lie and bails from the site. What a wuss.

The Religious Left said...

He's holed up in his Woodland Park root cellar, waiting for the Rapture to save him from my mom, the Commie Nurse. Don't tread near Lake George, Barty, we're watching you.

Speaking of Rapture, I heard Blondie was on tour again. My sister saw 'em in Reno before going to the Playa. There's a freak show, for sure, but not as much as these sorry TeaBagging imbeciles.

Bart DePalma said...

Davy:

I have far better things to do than lurk here to watch you folks squawk. As I have repeatedly posted, I have no personal knowledge of the actual crowd size. I posted my sources.

Fox News is reporting that the crowd extends from the mall to the Washington Memorial.

The photos I have posted at my blog show the march extending for a couple miles.

The comparison between the Obama inaugural and this protest are apples and oranges. The Dems bussed and flew in their party members and African Americans wanted to see the first African American President inaugurated. In contrast, the Tea Party movement members came out here on their own volition and on their own dime to protest. A more apt comparison would be with prior protest marches.

Also, this is by far the largest conservative protest in US history. Conservatives generally do not protest, we have jobs and families. Usually we do our political protesting at the ballot box. This is something unique in history. You did not see anything like this in 1979 or 1993. 2010 could be very interesting.

The Religious Left said...

Wall Street Journal:
By JAKE SHERMAN

WASHINGTON -- Thousands of demonstrators descended on Capitol Hill Saturday, protesting the expansion of government spending and illustrating the network of conservative activists that has emerged in opposition to President Barack Obama's policies.

shiloh said...

Davy said...

I've already got a couple of trophy wins over PK and MR.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


A win over BDP, PK or Mule is like beating a dead horse er mule. ;)

just sayin'

The Religious Left said...

This is something unique, Bart of Woodland Park, in that never before have so many people been deluded by astroturfing campaigns and False News.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Davy:

I have far better things to do than lurk here to watch you folks squawk.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Then why does one continue to show up and talk about an astro turf farce! Obsession/Compulsion re: an African/American kicking the party of No! butts on election day?

just wonderin'

take care

The Religious Left said...

And listen to your self-righteous ass, "Conservatives generally do not protest, we have jobs and families. Usually we do our political protesting at the ballot box." Wow. What a bunch of manure. Or you know, maybe you have a point because for so long you were used to the powers in office doing your bidding, or, rather, you were doing theirs. Hypnotized by Reagan and the Prison Industrial Complex.

That's right, we Liberals don't have any family or jobs. We're all a bunch a welfare ho-s. You're a real piece of work.

Bart DePalma said...

The Religious Left said...

This is something unique, Bart of Woodland Park, in that never before have so many people been deluded by astroturfing campaigns and False News.

I'm sorry, but there are no purple shirted SEIU and Obama employees being bused in with preprinted signs and prearranged talking points at Tea Party rallies.

Indeed, the way you can tell Tea Party protestors and Dem Astroturf apart is there are far more Tea Party protestors and we carry hand made signs while the Astroturf come in buses with Obama signs with an Obama website on the bottom and use megaphones.

Tony C. said...

@Opus 132:

As a liberal myself, I believe the consequences of failing to engage the liars and trolls has proven too high, based on the last eight years.

My naive faith that the idiots and liars cannot really prevail has been shattered. I am not masochistic, I have no big public platform, but I think we must be the foot soldiers of opposition in their war on logic and common sense.

I beseech all liberals to engage and dispute the conservative nuts on every case you can and wherever they appear; this war must be won a single exchange at a time. These unwitting lemmings will destroy this country if we don't stop them, and before you think we have them on the run, I suggest you look at the pathetic shitty excuse for health care "reform" we are probably going to pass, with a 77% majority of people supporting REAL reform!

These people, the pawns of rich psychopaths, are poisoning the system and subverting the will of the people because they think they are fighting for Christ and Liberty when they are actually fighting to keep taxpayer dollars flowing like a river into the bank accounts of our plutocratic corporate and fake-religious rulers. They are the ultimate dupes, and they must be thwarted.

Engage. They only continue because it is easy, if we make it hard they will give up.

The Religious Left said...

BaHa!
You're confusing an actual political campaign with a concocted reaction to the same once said political person or group is elected (by, umm, 70+ million). Nice try, Bart. Better stick with the Hitler analogies.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Blah, blah, blah
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Too funny BDP, you've turned into PK.

Keep hope alive, buddy, keep hope alive!

take care

yologuy said...

>Fox News is reporting that the crowd extends from the mall to the Washington Memorial.<

The same Fox News that has repeatedly referred to a crowd "in the tens of thousands"? Even they can't bring themselves to exaggerate beyond that. And I can see on TV for myself that the crowd only makes it about halfway to the WM, and it's pretty thin towards the back.

Keep telling yourself that you're part of some big movement tho.

markymark said...

BDP said
'Also, this is by far the largest conservative protest in US history. '
------------------------------------

BDP obviously missed the Civil War in his social studies lessons!!!!!

Another explanation for a general lack of conservative protests could be that it is generally harder to protest against something that for something, in this way. 'We want things to stay just as they are thanks' doesn't make for a great slogan. The passion in a debate is usually on the side of those who want something different.

Incidentally am I alone in thinking the day after 9/11 is not a great day to have a protest? Especially when it has come 2 days after Joe Wilson's outburst. Conservatives and Republicans are beginning to look pretty out of touch, it seems to me.

The Religious Left said...

Yeah, and over a million people at the Inauguration. Were they all SEIU? I didn't notice. That evil SEIU! Another fear mongering conservative catch phrase! You love those, don't you.

So, then people show up at these "Tea Parties" to counteract and refute the LIES and BULLSHIT that you ENDELESSLY spout. Good on 'em. The rest of us Liberals are family loving, hard working Americans who don't usually protest... oh wait, yes we do, because we believe in a participatory Democracy, and we cannot stand all this negative greed being dressed up as valid grievances with some imaginary dictator. Glad your hand made signs are legible and have some semblance of a point to make, like "Security vs. Freedom". Wha?

"Other sponsors of the rally include the Heartland Institute, Americans for Tax Reform and the Ayn Rand Center for Individuals Rights." Sponsored rallies are real grass roots, Bart.

You ought to just be like Carl Sagan: Billions and Billions

Davy said...

I have far better things to do than lurk here to watch you folks squawk.

Apparently not. Do I really need to go back and tally the number of posts you have made here? Didn't think so. You're a known partisan troll.

Also, this is by far the largest conservative protest in US history. Conservatives generally do not protest, we have jobs and families. Usually we do our political protesting at the ballot box. This is something unique in history. You did not see anything like this in 1979 or 1993. 2010 could be very interesting.

Not surprisingly, this is the first time in recent memory that conservatives are LOSING. Pardon my hubris, but you've had this coming for a long time.

In 1993, the American public had only begun to be been duped by insurance companies. We were still trying to figure out what an HMO was and why our employers thought that being 'in program' was important. I don't know what your 1979 reference is. 1979 was a pretty unremarkable year. I was probably standing in line to see Star Wars for the 33rd time or figuring out how to bypass the coin return of the Pac-Man machine at the Pizza joint where I was a Jr. Manager. I was likely trying to figure out how to get in the first chair clarinet players pants.

As to protests:

Beginning in 2002, and continuing after the 2003 invasion of Iraq, protests against the Iraq War were held in many cities worldwide, often coordinated to occur simultaneously around the world. After the biggest series of demonstrations, on February 15, 2003, New York Times writer Patrick Tyler claimed that they showed that there were two superpowers on the planet, the United States and worldwide public opinion.[1]

These demonstrations against the war were mainly organized by anti-war organizations, many of whom had been formed in opposition to the invasion of Afghanistan. In some Arab countries demonstrations were organized by the State. Europe saw the biggest mobilization of protesters, including a rally of 3 million people in Rome, which is listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the largest ever anti-war rally.[2]

According to the French academic Dominique Reynié, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war.[3]

Within the United States, pro-war demonstrators have been quoted as referring to anti-war protests as a "vocal minority."[4] However, Gallup Polls updated September 14, 2007 state, "Since the summer of 2005, opponents of the war have tended to outnumber supporters. A majority of Americans believe the war was a mistake."[5]
From Wikipedia.

You think your paltry little anti-tax teabagging party has resonance next to this? Sorry, pal. As I said before, it must be hard to form a cogent sentence with those teabags slapping you in the chin.

Change is good but it is also hard. The insurance cartel can no longer be allowed to screw us. I don't care how far up your ass you stick your head, change is a'comin'.

Davy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Davy said...

Tony C. said,

These people, the pawns of rich psychopaths, are poisoning the system and subverting the will of the people because they think they are fighting for Christ and Liberty when they are actually fighting to keep taxpayer dollars flowing like a river into the bank accounts of our plutocratic corporate and fake-religious rulers. They are the ultimate dupes, and they must be thwarted.

Engage.

Resistance is not futile. Rock on brother.

Davy said...

On February 15, millions of people protested, in approximately 800 cities around the world. Listed by the 2004 Guinness Book of Records as the largest protest in human history, protests occurred among others in the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Ireland, the United States, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Syria, India, Russia, South Korea, Japan, and even McMurdo Station in Antarctica. The largest demonstration this day occurred in London, where 2,000,000 protesters (about 1 in 30 of the population) gathered in Hyde Park; speakers included the Reverend Jesse Jackson, London mayor Ken Livingstone, and Liberal Democrats leader Charles Kennedy.

Stats rule.

Tony C. said...

@markymark:

The Rethuglicans are all about exploiting emotion; they have given up on logic or common sense.

Their computations are pre-arithmetic; if 9/11 equals high emotion, use it as a prop. Nothing could be more crass, cynical, or self-serving; the people running them are sociopathic opportunists every one.

shiloh said...

markymark said...

Incidentally am I alone in thinking the day after 9/11 is not a great day to have a protest? Especially when it has come 2 days after Joe Wilson's outburst. Conservatives and Republicans are beginning to look pretty out of touch, it seems to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


and the astro turf farce is being led by beck who said some very nasty things re: the families affected by the 9/11 tragedy:

You know, it took me about a year to start hating the 9/11 victims' families. It took me about a year. Um, and I had such compassion for them and I really, you know, I wanted to help them, and I was behind -- let's give them money, let's get them started, and all of this stuff. And I really didn't -- all the 3,000 victims' families, I don't hate all of them, I hate about, probably about ten of them. But when I see 9/11 victim family, you know, on television, or whatever, I'm just like, 'Oh, shut up.' I'm so sick of them. Because they're always complaining. And we did our best for them.

>
>
>

Re: Katrina ~ But the second thought I had when I saw these people and they had to shut down the Astrodome and lock it down, I thought: I didn't think I could hate victims faster than the 9-11 victims.


'nuf said!

Davy said...

A group of scientists at the US McMurdo Station held a rally on the ice at the edge of the Ross sea (to protest the Iraq invasion).

Every Continent; every nation.

And you're worried about addressing a moral issue that has dragged on for decades because of what; how it will affect the way your tax dollars are spent? Maybe you're not paying attention but if the insurance cartel is allowed to continue unimpeded YOU are going to wind up paying three times as much for medical coverage as you do now.

I can't believe I'm even having this conversation.

Davy said...

I'm not done with you yet, Bart.

I've said before that health insurance reform is a moral dilemma.

When my father was dying with an incurable disease (ideo-pathic pulmonary fibrosis: a term I was forced to learn which essentially means 'we don't know why you can't breath'), I bought a one-way ticket to Birmingham because I figured this man had changed my diapers when I came into the world and the least I could do was to return the favour on his way out. In short: we take care of our own. That goes for our nation too. Right now there are 47 million people out there (including me) who aren't allowed into the tent. The irony is that this means there are 47 million potential customers but don't let that get in the way of your argument.

Someone who is in opposition of a moral imperative: what does that make them?

LinCA said...

It looks like more people are gathering to remember 2 fallen firefighters than marched on D.C today.

How long have these teabaggers been planning this grand finale?

Davy said...

Commercial break. {crickets}

Guess I went over the line on that last diatribe.

PeteKent said...

The problem with Obama's speech Wednesday night was again two words: "'You lie!'".

Virtually all of the time that might have been spent discussing the substance of the President's remarks (and building confidence in this plan), was spent discussing the charge by a single GOP Congressman from SC that Obama did not tell the truth when he said illegal aliens will not be covered.

(As a side note the WH has already admitted that the bills must be revised to deny illegal coverage -- indeed he lied!)

It seems wherever Obama goes these days, doubt follows him. It is hardening and it spreading that he is something of a subversive and a dissembler and that his intiatives must be resisted on principal alone.

Obama is finished. He sucks at being president and he is failing.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Davy said...

I wish my brother Statler were here. If you think my comments are blistering or scathing, you should fear invoking the ire of a pissed-off, gay, cajun. He makes me look quite tame. O' brother, where art thou?

Davy said...

Hey, Pete Kent. Bart has bailed. Now I can beat up on you during commercial breaks of the football game. Have you read HR 3200? Can you show me the passage that says illegal immigrants will be provided health care? Nope. BECAUSE IT'S A LIE.

C'mon, I dare you. Find me the wording that covers illegals. Seriously, what do I need to do to hear this wording? Make me an offer.

Davy said...

Disclaimer: I haven't read the damn thing either but if my president says it's not in there, I'm inclined to believe him

Tony C. said...

Pete Kent is a liar. The WH has admitted no such thing, and as was reported time and time again on MSNBC, the actual reading of HR 3200 has a section title and paragraph that expressly prohibitted illegal aliens being covered by the bill in any way whatsoever. It was in there before the speech, it is in there after the speech, and Obama was telling the truth.

That's one thing we can like about MSNBC, they tend to support their assertions with verifiable facts.

Section 246: No federal payments for undocumented aliens.

Go look it up:
Section 246

PeteKent said...

From MSNBC:

http://tinyurl.com/ksxplp

Obama concedes "he lied".

If its good enough for MSNBC, Davy, its good enough for me!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Sorry, Tony C, you are still relying on old news!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Bart DePalma said...

For those here with any interest in reality, you can see a variety shots of the Tea Party protest crowd in DC here at Radio Patriot.

Fox News was correct that the crowd did extend from and completely filled the space in between the Mall and the Washington Memorial.

Bartbuster said...

Baghdad, where were you teabaggers when Bush was pissing away $2 billion per week in the Iraq Disaster?

PeteKent said...

I can't speak for the Tea Party folks, but I for one was celebrating the killing of our enemies and the destruction of Al Qaeda in Iraq.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Bart DePalma said...

Bartbuster said...

Baghdad, where were you teabaggers when Bush was pissing away $2 billion per week in the Iraq Disaster?

Winning the war you and Obama were calling on the military to surrender.

Bartbuster said...

Winning the war you and Obama were calling on the military to surrender.

Sure you did. And America was so "grateful" for your "victory" that it kicked you morons to the curb. That has got to sting.

Bartbuster said...

I can't speak for the Tea Party folks, but I for one was celebrating the killing of our enemies and the destruction of Al Qaeda in Iraq.

That same Al Qaeda in Iraq that you morons helped create?

Davy said...

There would be no change in the law that requires emergency rooms to treat people who need emergency care, including undocumented immigrants. There is already a federal grant program that compensates states for emergency room costs associated with treatment of undocumented immigrants, a provision sponsored by a Republican lawmaker.

Is there an argument here? Do you even read the sources you cite?

Oh, here's another from your source.

Undocumented immigrants would not be able to buy private insurance on the exchange. Those who are lawfully present in this country would be able to participate.

So little time; so many trolls to kill.

Davy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
yologuy said...

Official DC Fire Dept crowd size estimate - 60K. No estimate of how many are beneficiaries of that damn socialist Medicare....

Bart DePalma said...

Here is time lapsed film of the hundreds of thousands of Tea Party protestors filling the march route as far as the eye can see.

The Religious Left said...

hundred of thousands, I think not.

Davy said...

Okay, we can quibble about the size of the protest that showed up today in response to a dumbass talk show host's call for resistance to the reform of health care. You were there; I'll give you that.

Why were you there? 77% of Americans believe the health care reform is not only a moral imperative, but a fiscal one as well.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

I have far better things to do than lurk here to watch you folks squawk.
~~~~~~~~~


Bart, you're still here ?!? ~ It's Over ~ Go Home ~ Go!

btw, Michigan beat Notre Dame, Yes!

carry on

Tony C. said...

@Pete:

I quoted a bill. I provided a link. You quote a newscaster, or make shit up. Neither of those is dispositive; I don't care what is "good enough for you," apparently a great deal of falsehood is also good enough for you. What is good enough for me is verifiable independent proof; like the actual goddam text of the goddam bill HR 3200.

What a total dumbshit you are.

PeteKent said...

Tony C,

The problem with the language in the the Bill was recognized late Friday by the Obama adminstration as pointed out in the article from MSNBC I provided. They then pledged to fix the problem of illegal alien coverage.

The "You lie!" accusation is what inspired the reaction. Just as Sarah Palin twittering "Death Panels!" took them out of the Bill.

Get your sequencing and your facts straight!

petekent01 (on twitter)

kinkorknight said...

First time commenter, long time reader.

I'm testing out this account of mine as these things have been ornery at times. And since I can't let that no-good varment PK have the last word (not that he had a point to begin with), I thought I'd try this out.

I apologize to those who think I'm trivalizing the thread, but be honest. The thread lost all meaning a long time ago.

Mike in Maryland said...

LIES and more LIES posted by Bart the Palmist (er, I mean the stupid Palma) today:

At 1:41 PM:
Today, between 1-2 million Tea Party patriots are marching on the capital to put a stop to the madness.

No citation to back up the claim.

At 2:42 PM:
Supposedly, the police have the number at 1.3 million.

Which police?

U.S. Park police? They haven't done crowd estimates since the Million Man March.

U.S. Capital Police? They wouldn't have anything to do concerning a crowd on property that is under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Park Police.

District of Columbia Police? They wouldn't do a crowd estimate on property that is under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Park Police. Besides, the District of Columbia Police don't do crowd estimates (see Million Man March).

Metro Police? Their authority is for the Metro mass transit system, the buses, and the facilities of the Washington Metro Area Transit Authority. The subway goes UNDER the National Mall, thus the Metro Police don't have jurisdiction. Besides, Metro Police don't do crowd estimates (see Million Man March).

Secret Service? Their assignment, among other things, is to protect the President, and their area of jurisdiction is the grounds of the White House and whereever the President is at at any time (Today, he was in Minneapolis, not in DC). Besides the Secret Service doesn't do crowd estimates (see Million Man March).

So which police, TROLL Bart the Palmist (er, I mean the stupid Palma)?

In that same 2:42 PM post:
ABC News is reporting 2 million.

Checking the ABC News site, the story is headlined "Thousands March to US Capitol to Protest Spending". If you have to go 1/2 way down the page to see the article, you know it's not a real important story.

In that same 2:42 PM post:
Of course, the Dem media may simply be quoting the previously released Dem estimate of 2 million simply to claim that the actual numbers were below expectations.

Got any sites you can link us to that made an estimate for crowd size? In politics, and for political rallies especially, the organizers are the ones who give out crowd estimates, not those who are opposed to the objective of the rally.

(Due to space limitations, continued below.)

Mike in Maryland

Mike in Maryland said...

(Continued from above)

At 4:07 PM:

I have far better things to do than lurk here to watch you folks squawk. As I have repeatedly posted, I have no personal knowledge of the actual crowd size. I posted my sources.

Except that all your 'sources' were previously totally debunked. And you provided absolutely NO links to your sources (except to doctored, aka photo-shopped pictures whose authenticity can't be verified).

In that same 4:07 PM post:
Fox News is reporting that the crowd extends from the mall to the Washington Memorial.

It's obvious that you have no knowledge of the geography of the National Mall. It extends from 3rd Street NW/SW to 14th Street NW/SW. 14th Street is the street that is just east of the Washington Monument. See http://www.epa.gov/ncer/p3/images/mall_map2.jpg .

And as I highlighted above, it is the Washington Monument. There are memorials to Lincoln, Jefferson, Roosevelt, the Viet Nam War vets, and others on the National Mall, along with a majority of the buildings that comprise the Smithsonian Institution. There is no Washington Memorial on the National Mall or elsewhere in the District of Columbia.

In that same 4:07 PM post:
The photos I have posted at my blog show the march extending for a couple miles.

Two miles? The distance from the Capital to the Lincoln Memorial? That would be the most EVER on the National Mall for ANY event, exceeding the Million Man March, the inauguration on January 20, 2009, and/or any Fourth of July fireworks crowds.

I think I'll stop now, so that Bart the Palmist (er, I mean the stupid Palma) might be able to hold a couple of shreds of dignity - that is if he had any to begin with, which is extremely doubtful.

Oh, yeah, Bart the Palmist (er, I mean the stupid Palma), didn't you claim that you are an attorney? Doesn't that make you an officer of the court? Isn't one of the principles of being an officer of the court that you are to always tell the truth?

Mike in Maryland

The Religious Left said...

Before we get to the numbers...

UPDATE (8:43 p.m. EST):
NBC has replaced this woman's comment about Muslims with a less inflammatory comment: "I'm scared to death for my country. I believe Obama is running this country into the ground."

This appears to be the only edit made to this online video. Footage of her previous comment does not appear to be posted. The original video was broadcast Saturday evening, Sept. 12, 2009, on NBC Nightly News.

-------------------------------

A protester at Saturday's Tea Party on the National Mall in Washington, D.C. made clear that she was afraid, saying "We are losing our country, we think the Muslim's are moving in and taking over."

NBC Nightly News interviewed the woman, who was surrounded by fellow protesters as she made the remarks. Her name was not used.

Participants at the event, billed "March on Washington" by its organizers, rallied against President Obama's health care plan and what they say is out-of-control spending.

The Religious Left said...

Those commies at NBC...

and then, good ol' ABC:

"Conservative activists, who organized a march on the U.S. Capitol today in protest of the Obama administration's health care agenda and government spending, erroneously attributed reports on the size of the crowds to ABC News.

Matt Kibbe, president of FreedomWorks, the group that organized the event, said on stage at the rally that ABC News was reporting that 1 million to 1.5 million people were in attendance.

At no time did ABC News, or its affiliates, report a number anywhere near as large. ABCNews.com reported an approximate figure of 60,000 to 70,000 protesters, attributed to the Washington, D.C., fire department. In its reports, ABC News Radio described the crowd as "tens of thousands."

Brendan Steinhauser, spokesman for FreedomWorks, said he did not know why Kibbe cited ABC News as a source.

As a result of Kibbe's erroneous attribution, several bloggers and commenters repeated the misinformation."

Read it and weep, Bart. Fewer than would fill Mile High. HA!!!

LinCA said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Tony C. said...

Ditto LinCA.

markymark said...

Good ole PK said
'From MSNBC:

http://tinyurl.com/ksxplp

Obama concedes "he lied".

If its good enough for MSNBC, Davy, its good enough for me!

petekent01 (on twitter)'
---------------------------------

In what way does the MSNBC article say that Obama lied. He said in the speech that illegal immigrants will not be covered. Not that they aren't covered in a bill. (As far as I know Obama was not backing a particular bill just outlining what he wants from the system). So actually the article offers proof that Obama was telling the truth.

PeteKent said...

No, markymark, the article proves that Obama was lying when he made the speech and then had to cover his tracks by promising to fix the legislation so that it would not cover illegals. Congressman Wilson was correct in his assertion ("You lie!).

What I love about all of this is that we are talking about Obama's honesty (or not), building on the theme of his being a subversive adminstration.

None of the post speech coverage did a thing to advance the Adminstration's goals.

Once again, Obama loses control of message and gets beat up. He is no leader.

He sucks at being President.

petekent01 (on twitter)

markymark said...

No no PK, Obama's speech did not at all ever refer to any of the bills before congress right now. He did not say that any of the bills disqualify illegal immigrants from receiving insurance. What the ammendments that the White House is supporting do is to clarify a situation, not change it. Obama in the speech said he will support things that make the bill better, here is something that makes the bill clearer, so its being supported.

Tony C. said...

No, Pete, you are the liar and desperately trying to make something true by assertion.

It is impossible for Obama to lie in this speech. MarkyMark produced the salient point: He was talking about the future and what the legislation that would eventually pass would contain. He was dispelling rumors about what the legislation would contain.

Thus, the only way he could possibly be lying is if he secretly intended to veto any bill that did not cover illegal aliens; and that is so ridiculous an assertion it requires a tinfoil hat.

On the other hand, he can be telling the truth if he intends to veto anything that does cover illegal aliens; or otherwise intends to use his influence to ensure that outcome.

Either you are completely stupid or you are completely evil and trying to spread lies. This makes you worthy of either pity or contempt and hatred; and since I am a charitable man, I prefer to fall on the side of pity.

Perhaps health care will cover some therapy for your mental illness.

The Religious Left said...

PK: "He sucks at being President"

Good one, Pete. Sounds like a 13 year old.

Pete Kent sucks at trying to make coherent point.