9.16.2009

Baucus Compromise Bill Draws Enthusiastic Support of Senator Max Baucus (D-MT)

After a couple of weeks that have generally looked pretty good for Team Blue on health care reform, Max Baucus's Senate Finance Committee bill suddenly finds itself devoid of supporters. And everyone seems to have their own, unique way of objecting.

Firstly, there's Jay Rockefeller, who opposes the lack of a pubic option.

Ron Wyden doesn't think the subsidies are sufficient.

Then there's Olympia Snowe, who doesn't like the funding mechanism.

John Kerry also has issues with the funding plan -- different issues than Snowe does -- and implies that the bill needs significant changes.

Mike Enzi and Chuck Grassley, who were never really on board in the first place, have a litany of objections.

Kent Conrad now wants the CBO to score the bill with a 20-year time window -- an unorthodox move which could have a variety of motives, but if nothing else introduces another wrench into the works.

At least Jeff Bingaman is still on board. For now.

These are not just any old random set of Senators opposing Baucus's plan -- these are the thought leaders on health care reform.

Negotiations are funny things. Sometimes the scariest moments come when you're closest to a settlement, as all sides feel emboldened to take the last opportunity to demonstrate resolve. Leverage in a negotiation is not necessarily a zero-sum affair, since nobody has any leverage if there's no hope to reach an agreement. So some of this maneuvering, perhaps, is a reflection of the bill moving closer to passage and not further away.

But let's be clear -- some of this is Baucus's chickens coming home to roost. When you make a unilateral decision to negotiate with only five other people from a 23-person committee and 100-person Senate, and two of those five people have clear electoral disincentives against supporting any plan that you might come up with, the negotiations are liable to end in failure far more often than not. The flurry of on-the-record statements against Baucus's reform plans -- not "leaks", not trial balloons -- points toward a defective process.

And that may suit Democrats just fine. There are at least three other starting points for a final showdown over health care: the House Tri-Committee bill, the Senate HELP bill, and possibly also the White's House's statement of principles, some of which remain vaguely defined. Many of the objections raised to BaucusCare would necessarily apply to one or more of those bills too -- but they'd appear to be starting from no worse a position than Baucus's plan itself.

122 comments

The Religious Left said...

Well, I could do a first again, but I want to be totally off topic as well. As a Colorado boy, I am totally psyched that HuffPo now has a local site/office there, maybe just to underline that it and the West are not Red State hold outs like some people assume.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/denver/

And, some trivia! The capacity of Mile Hight Stadium, while lower than the old Mile High stadium is roughly the same size as the number of protesters in Washington DC on 9/12!

J. R. Carr said...

"Firstly, there's Jay Rockefeller, who opposes the lack of a pubic option."
Well it was about time someone complained! I thought it was just me!

Carrick said...

Nate, in the wake of the 'teabag/taxpayer' protest Saturday, I've been seeing this 04/05 UCLA Media Bias study (Groseclose/Milyo) quoted all over the place. Are you seeing this too? Does its methodology hold water? Is this a stand-out study or just being cherry-picked.
Ever thought of a feature piece picking apart the various media bias studies' methodologies?

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.8.htm

Inferno said...

Who knew that Jay Rockefeller would side with a teabagger?

In more serious news: Did anyone other than Max Baucus support Baucuscare? He was getting flak for it from the left wing of the Democratic party because it was really Republican-lite, and he was getting flak from the Republicans because there's a D next to his name in newscasts.

I mean, Grassley essentially told him (and the rest of the Democratic caucus) to fuck off in public. That's okay, but if you're the one entrusted with the negotiations, you just blew your chance right there.

I'm normally for Blue Dogs being welcomed to the table (as opposed to someone like - say - PorridgeGun, who I am certain is typing up a response that contains the phrase "corrupt Blue Dogs" this very moment), but really. When there's only one Republican negotiating in good faith with you - and she's the outlier of the party - it may be time to just concede that it's okay to move to the left a little.

Phoebus said...

aren't we just talking about a guy who didn't have to run for reelection in 08 & thus stuck his fool head in the sand?

Davy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Troy said...

Max Baucus is a douche:
http://imgur.com/UG2Zz.png

Why hasn't any other news outlet talked about the Kennedy HELP Act?

Why did the president decide to work with Baucus who decided to work with an impotent, obstructionist GOP?

It's almost like Obama doesn't want a public option.

Lying said...

From the Roll Call link:
Finance Chairman Max Baucus’ (R-Mont.)

Should I consider that a joke or ordinary journalistic incompetence?

Davy said...

And through the discredited estimates of the objections in the Glen Beck '9/12' protests this past weekend, which amounted to no more an inconvenience than a Washington Cardinals crowd, let me reiterate:

Decibel level of your protest does not a democracy make.

wv: atest: can I get a witness?

Davy said...

After having been admonished by several of the commentators here a couple of weeks ago for laying down the race card, I'd like to mildly gloat that the rest of the media has caught up with me.

I thought these town halls, birthers, teabaggers, deathers, Joe Wilson, etc. may have had a valid argument. But after this melee of absurdity, I'm convinced that this is about the messenger and not the message.

There was a plethora of railing against the Clintons personally during the nineties; some deserved, some fabricated. But mostly the conservatives tried to discredit the PLAN. Now it almost seems as if the plan were secondary. There have been no opposing arguments for the health insurance reform from the left. Only obstructionist arguments. But every attempt to discredit Obama as a legitimate leader of this country falls flat.

Still thinking: more to come.

DanAtCA said...

Senator Baucus' actions thus far have shown he has no interest in seeing health insurance reform. He abdicated the Democratic majority he had on the committee to have equal representation on the "gang of six".

He now has a plan that lets the insurance companies do whatever they like for the next 3-5 years before the government does anything. I think he is hoping that in that time any changes made in the bill can be reversed, so that we never have any real insurance reform.

daniel said...

>>He was getting flak for it from the >>left wing of the Democratic party >>because it was really >>Republican-lite

Isn't this kind of a dumb statement? I know that republicans are spending more time trashing the current proposals than coming up with their own proposal ... but the republican proposal looks something like
1) tort reform
2) giving everyone tax break (not just people who get coverage through employer)
3) create a high risk pool subsidized by govermnent to handle people with pre-existing conditions
4) Let insurance be sold across state lines

Now, I think the plan sucks (though I think 1) is a no brainer) ... but how is the senate plan republican - lite. It is far closer to the dem plan. There is a huge gulf between the kind of plan progressives want and the kind of plan conservatives want.

It seems to me that neither republicans or dems are really trying to meet in the middle ... and maybe more importantly I'm not sure there is a middle to meet in.

Greg said...

The reason that nobody likes this but Max himself is simple, he started from a very compromised point and went right. And the right was never going to agree anyways.

A true compromise would have been to start with single payer and mover right, but his donors from Blue Cross and United Health would not have been pleased.

Screw it. Dump the Senate bill and pass the House version.

markymark said...

I don't get the point of the Baucus plan. Its so far from what any real Democrat would back its really quite laughable, and it doesn't help the debate. Is it just Baucus showing he has some relevance?

Tony C. said...

Baucus Just Wanted A Delay.

Baucus received at least $3M in lobbyist money from health insurance companies and was just doing the maximum he could to delay the bill past the recess; so all the August idiocy the insurance companies had already bought (through donations to Freedom Works, the Dick Armey con game) could take place.

Pay no attention to the Baucus bill. In consulting we call this a "sham deliverable." It is a pile of nonsense crap one can write in a weekend and get paid a fortune for other reasons.

The content of the bill was never the point, the delay was the point, giving time to the enemy to make their public attack with tea party lies and town hall disruptions and media hand-wringing, and to also work their private magic with cash bribes and threats to the elected.

The true deliverables were delay and as dilute a bill as possible; and to insure it, Baucus invited the very people from his committee he knew he could count on to help manufacture those deliverables.

Tony C. said...

Sorry, typing in a hurry; the proper word above is "ensure," not "insure."

NU'69 said...

Without delving into the details of the bill, the noted opposition and the nature of their objections makes it pretty clear that Baucus is on the right track.

Cosa Nostradamus said...

.
Immediate comprehensive universal single-payer national healthcare with an opt-out for idiots, who still have to pay for it, or we fire everybody who stands in the way. NOV 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, clean House, clean Senate, clean 1600 PA Av. Until we get corporate money, influence & whores out of DC, there will be no "CHANGE."

Wake us up when they're done pretending. Meanwhile, there's old, bold news.
.

NU'69 said...

And just to put my prior comment in a different way, legislation is sausage. What Baucus proposes looks like it may be edible (barely). All the other proposals make me gag and throw up. At least he made an attempt to pay for it. It does fail to adequately discourage unnecessary care, but the other proposals all encourage more unnecessary care (the something for nothing principle).

markymark said...

NU69 said
'Without delving into the details of the bill, the noted opposition and the nature of their objections makes it pretty clear that Baucus is on the right track.'
------------------------------------

Wow, so a bipartisan bunch of congressional leaders on the issue come out quickly against the plan, and that means that you think the plan must be ok? Stunning logic.

markymark said...

NU69 said
'At least he made an attempt to pay for it. It does fail to adequately discourage unnecessary care, but the other proposals all encourage more unnecessary care (the something for nothing principle).'
--------------------------------

The quickest way to get rid of unnecessary care would be some form of single payer government run scheme. But then I guess you would cry foul about rationing.

michaelk said...

At this point, it doesn't seem like Republicans will support anything. Compromise means BOTH sides give something. Yet republicans insist its their way or the highway. I think at this point, democrats may as well put the bill they want through congress, because they should worry more about waning democratic votes than the non-existent republican votes.

I also wonder, how this is going to look in the next election. It again proves, even with Republican concessions, they are still the party of "no."

Jeff said...

Davy,
Opposition to Obamacare, the bailouts, the debt, etc, is not racist. Carter's suggestion that "most" of the opposition to Obama is racism is one of the most appalling slanders I've ever heard from a former presidents - against (according to the polls) - pretty much HALF of the American people (including many people who voted for the man). Maureen Dowd has been flogging this line in the NYT - essentially calling Joe Wilson a "white supremacist" without a shred of evidence (this in a column calling for greater "civility"!)

There is a racist flank in this country (in both parties, lest we forget the WV primary), but it is a minor factor. That it comes out only for Obama, and not for Clinton or Bush, is rather obvious - he is the first minority president. It's deeply regrettable, but an obvious fallacy that because our first black president has encountered some marginal racism, all opposition to him is based on racism. Can you people not see this? The protest has been dismissed as some sort of KKK rally - but I have yet to see ONE racist sign. Perhaps they were there on the margins, but please, don't slander the vast majority with this. Its a grossly cynical manipulation of the race issue.

This will be a full blown disaster for the Democrats if it becomes a dominant meme (as it is already - CNN, NYT, Carter, they are all covering it). Obama knows this full well. But the rest of the left just can't help itself. Dissent that can't be defused through argument must be typed as "racism". Pathetic.

Statler N Waldorf said...

People seem to equivocate bipartisanship with sainthood. I beg to differ; the decision to authorize the War in Iraq was certainly bipartisan-it was, however, an incredibly stupid thing to do.

And now, when the electorate has spoken so clearly-60% or better majorities in both House and Senate-Max Baucus would defy the will of the people by establishing a 6=person panel with a 50/50 composition?

The whole Gang of Six idea was idiocy from the start. Its phrasing is childish and immature to begin with-a group of middle-aged politicians joining a gang? What, are they going to start wearing bandannas with the color indicating their party next? Did we elect Crips and Bloods or adults? Perhaps they intend to re-enact a scene from West Side Story during the next Congressional session while they're at it, or maybe they intend to introduce the Baucus Bill by riding onto the Senate floor in motorcycles, wearing leather jackets that read "Baucus' Bastards".

Did we elect 50 Republicans? I don't think we did. a 50/50 split defies the will of the electorate. As does concentrating all the decision making power into the hands of six people rather than the full committee. Its not democracy if you pick only your friends-that's cronyism at best.

Jeff said...

Flay Baucus all you want, but here is the real problem for Obamacare:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122957/Healthcare-Bill-Supporters-Cite-Uninsured-Foes-Big-Govt.aspx

You can be sure that among Baucus constituents, the numbers are far worse. He's representing his voters, as is Conrad, Snowe, and everyone else on that committee.

But I supposed these people are all racists, according to Jimmy Carter/Maureen Dowd/et al, so let's ignore them.

joel said...

Baucus should be indicted for bribery. He took his marching orders from the insurance industry.
Obama needs to tell the GOP to F off, I won the election, force a bill through any way he can. a bill with no public option is worthless and just a payoff for the insurance bribes.
As an example, my wife works for the federal govt. we have a family plan and pay about $250 mth because all the insurance companies compete for all the federal employee business. A PO would work the same way and premiums would come way down.
The sad thing is the corporations are running this country.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Jeff,

Well, let,s see. JC is saying that Joe Wilson is a racist.

Now, JW is an active member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV), which the Southern Poverty Law Center lists as a hate group. It is also notable that, while many people have assailed Presidents verbally in the past, the very first time a Congressperson interrupted a live address before a joint session of Congress by our Head of State on national TV, it was a southern cracker that is an active member of a hate group yelling at the nation's first black President.

Yeah, that looks pretty fucking racist to me. Gotta say. I mean, if its a known fact that you like to wear a white hood on the weekends, and you show up yelling in a black head of State's face on national TV, you're probably a racist asshole. Its a safe bet.

Jeff said...

Statler,
Beloning to that organization and "wearing a hood" are not the same thing. Harry Truman was a member, as are many other Dems. I don't approve of that sort of confederate nostalgia, but it does not equate with white supremacy in some simple way. And as for the "unprecedent" nature of Wilson's transgressions, spare me. Bush was interrupted during the state of the Union, he was called a liar by Dems from the house floor, he had shoes thrown at him to general merriment on the left, he had a movie made which depicted his assassination, he was regularly called a Nazi. The "incivility" of opposition to Bush was profound - easily equal to what Obama has recieved. I'm sure you think that Bush deserved it, but that is the point. The opposition was largely political then, and it is now. I disagree with you about Wilson - but I even more strongly disagree with Carter. "Most" of the opposition to Obama is NOT based on racism. Dismiss it for that reason, and you will lock in every opponent, none of whom are going to appreciate being called a white supremacist.

By the way, the only "white hooded" figure in the Senate is Senator Byrd, who had a distinguished career in the KKK, has used the "n-word" in recent years, and is a much beloved Dem senator. Two can play at that dirty game.

markymark said...

Jeff,

Trumam may have been a member of SCV, but I think thats wildly different from saying that someone in the 21st Century is. The organisation has changed somewhat. And besides looking at the list of members on wiki (i know i know!!) does not make me think it is a group you'd want to be associated with generally.

To be honest my problem with Carter's comments are not whether or not they are right or wrong, but that they are a distraction. It leads to an argument that takes away from discussing the issues. It was always my fear with keeping Joe Wilson in the headlines for more than a day or two. Can't we just leave that all alone now and get on with sorting out the health care reform bill. NOW.

Alan Williamson said...

I would like to see Medicare for All. This would be the simplest plan. The Republicans have NO interest in what the people want or the country needs. They are okay with spending 3 trillion USD on a unnecessary war, but not okay with spending 1 trillion USD on their own country. Go figure!

Alan Williamson said...

Jimmy Carter is right. Most of the southern states have the Confederate flag in their state flag. (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, North Carolina, and Tennessee.) This is not a accident. Further, it was not a accident that the first President to be heckled is also the first Black President and the person heckling him is a member of the Sons of Confederate Soldiers. IMHO, anyone who believes this is a accident is a f*cking idiot. If is looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck...it is a duck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Use_in_State_Flags

Uncle Al said...

@joel:
Your $250 number isn't useful for the debate (on either side) unless you know what your employer's contribution is (hint: it almost certainly is not $0). I pay even less as an employee of a small business -- $220 per month for a family HDHP -- but the employer is paying $660 per month and kicking $167 into our HSA.

@Alan Williamson:
I've watched the difficulties my father-in-law and mother-in-law have had with VA benefits and Medicare, respectively, including the fact that the system basically forces them into using the ER most of the time due to the wait times to see a doctor or the distance to an appropriate office. And now you think I should let the government run my family's health insurance too? To borrow a phrase from the last election: "Thanks, but no thanks."

Statler N Waldorf said...

Jeff-

Its not dirty. I've attacked Byrd for years for that and other reasons-like his opposition to GLBT people being allowed to serve openly in the military during the Clinton Administration.

The SCV was only classified as a hate group in 2002, long after Truman was dead. Prior to recent years, the SCV was primarily historical re-enacters that cleaned up gravesites. However, it has recently been taken over by white supremacists that claim that slavery was justified. I dare you to defend that position.

Now, I'm willing to criticize Democrats as equally as Republicans, but you've got to get your facts straight. In Byrd's defense, he left the KKK more than half a century ago. Wilson is still an active member of the SCV at this very moment. Now, I am willing to accept that Robert Byrd is a bigot and I will condemn him for that. However, he ended his association with the KKK and has repeatedly, openly apologized for ever having been associated with that group-unequivocally. Wilson is an active member of an officially declared hate group right now, and he makes no apologies for it. I will not defend Robert Byrd, save to say that an ex-member who is apologetic for past wrongs is a thousand times better than an active member who is proud to belong to a hate group.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Oh yeah, just in case you're too damn lazy to follow the link, here's what SPLC has to say about recent SCV history-remember, Joe Wilson is an active member of this group:
Neo-Confederates
SCV Once Again Elects Radical National Leaders



The Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV), a Southern heritage group that has been largely dominated by racial extremists since 2002, has again elected a commander in chief and other national leaders who are closely tied to its radical faction.

At its August convention in New Orleans, SCV delegates selected as their national commander Chris Sullivan, a longtime ally of outgoing commander Denne Sweeney and a fellow South Carolinian. Sullivan is the editor of Southern Partisan, a controversial neo-Confederate magazine that has depicted antebellum slaves as happy and slave traders as benevolent. Other Sweeney allies were elected to top posts in the SCV's three "armies," or major geographical subdivisions.

For four years, the SCV has been split by an internal civil war between moderates and radicals with hard-line racial views. The radicals have sought to turn the SCV into an explicitly political group that pushes racist neo-Confederate ideas and issues. The latest election was a clear victory for the radical faction.

"We should all [now] resolve to work to defeat the Marxist Socialists that are waging war on Southern culture," Ed Butler, a newly elected leader of the Army of Tennessee, exulted after his victory. The League of South, a neo-Confederate hate group sympathetic to the radicals, was pleased, too, enthusing on its website that "The Sons of Confederate Veterans have endorsed a radical direction."

The election also solidified the hold on the SCV of Kirk Lyons, a white supremacist North Carolina lawyer, and his Southern Legal Resource Center, which specializes in defending Confederate symbols. Two SLRC board members -- Roy Burl McCoy and Bragdon Bowling -- won posts on the SCV's executive board. In addition, a new constitution, largely written by Lyons with Sweeney's approval, was adopted. The document gives unprecedented power to the national commander.
As a result of the latest vote, discouraged moderates continued to trickle out of the SCV, as they have for several years. "Our convention committee presided over the funeral of what we all once thought of as the SCV," lamented the commander of the New Orleans SCV "camp," or chapter, that hosted the convention. "The SCV that we knew was dumped as a rotting carcass in a dung heap."


Now, can you explain to me how this is not a racist hate group, and how active membership in such a group is something you can defend?

Brian Jenkins said...

Before the "game-changing" speech, Gallup reported that 37% of people would advise their Congresscritters to vote for Obamacare, and 39% would advise a vote against.

This morning: 38% and 40%, respectively.

In the two days before the speech, Rasmussen reported 44% approval and 53% disapproval for Obamacare.

The last two days: 42% and 55%.

So there was your bounce. Hope you enjoyed it. Oh, and calling everyone who opposes you a racist ain't gonna cut no ice, guys.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Here's an article talking about Joe Wilson as an active SCV member right now, not half a century ago-and how he attacked the press for accurately reporting on Strom Thurmond's affair with a Black mistress, because he considered it an insult to imply that a white man had sex with a black woman, even after Thurmond's family publicly stated that the affair had taken place and a child was born from it.

Joe Wilson has publicly stated that he opposes black and white people engaging in romantic relationships together as an immoral act. Publicly.. He belongs to a group that promotes the image of Black people having been better off as slaves. And you're telling me he isn't a racist?

What's next, are you going to tell me that Jerry Falwell wasn't really a homophobe?

Jeff, in the words of your hero,


"You LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Tony C. said...

'Uncle Al' is a bald face liar; I have elderly relatives on Medicare and they love it, this bullshit about visiting the ER is a lie. In fact, when people that have Medicare and have required significant medical care are surveyed, their approval rating of their insurance plan is a mile higher than any similar polling for any private insurance plan.

People think they have insurance, but when they actually make big claims those on private plans usually find they don't have nearly the insurance they thought they had, and it is too late to do anything about it except suffer, die, or go bankrupt.

When people on Medicare make big claims, they get paid: Those people have real insurance; the rest of us have a pretense of insurance and don't know it, because the typical odds of needing surgery or significant care are rather low, so the pretense is seldom exposed.

Uncle Al is a liar.

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

No one has bothered to ask the doctors what they thought about working under Obamacare - until now. Investors Business Daily polled 1,376 practicing physicians and found:

Two-thirds, or 65%, of doctors say they oppose the proposed government expansion plan. This contradicts the administration's claims that doctors are part of an "unprecedented coalition" supporting a medical overhaul...

Four of nine doctors, or 45%, said they "would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement" if Congress passes the plan the Democratic majority and White House have in mind...

More than seven in 10 doctors, or 71% — the most lopsided response in the poll — answered "no" when asked if they believed "the government can cover 47 million more people and that it will cost less money and the quality of care will be better."...

Bart DePalma said...

Brian Jenkins said...

Before the "game-changing" speech, Gallup reported that 37% of people would advise their Congresscritters to vote for Obamacare, and 39% would advise a vote against. This morning: 38% and 40%, respectively.

In the two days before the speech, Rasmussen reported 44% approval and 53% disapproval for Obamacare. The last two days: 42% and 55%.


It appears instead that 9/12 may have been a game changing march.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

To the individual asking about the UCLA study, just one of the first few lines seems a bit odd.

"The Drudge Report may have a right-wing reputation, but it leans left."

In what respect Charley?

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

Doctors QUIT? Bullshit, this will be disproven in short order.

#1, I've worked extensively with doctors in a major hospital; they don't give a shit where you get your insurance from.

#2, Beginning doctors are in debt up to their eyeballs and don't actually start earning any money or having a life until they are thirty. THOSE doctors aren't quitting.

#3, What are they going to do instead? Play golf? To a certain extent doctors are in it for the money; but by the age of 55 or so they have all the money they will ever need, and if they are STILL in it for the money they are dumb as rocks. The ones that would REALLY quit are a small part.

#4, Where are the questions? What Republican group commissioned or conducted this poll? Where are the lead-ins? Are these questions about a public option, or some Republican Fantasy where doctors earn $60K per year and are assigned posts like in a military organization?

#5, The article gives itself away because it is BULLSHIT that Britain doctors refuse to see people at night or work on weekends. British doctors are civil servants employed by the country and work the shifts they are assigned or negotiate. They don't 'refuse.' So first, nothing like this is remotely on the table in the USA, and second, it is the British government that restricts evening and weekend hours for non-emergency health care, as a benefit to their salaried doctors, not as a punishment. This misleading bullshit makes both the article and the study extremely suspect.

Jeff said...

Statler et al,
Let me be perfectly clear - I am not a defender of this sort of neo-confederate nonsense. But its a bit more complicated than you suggest. As I understand it there are a lot of very recent schisms in this group - and I have no idea where Wilson stands on any of it, nor am I inclined to assume.

Here something to chew on:

South Carolina's former Democratic Party chairman also said he doesn't believe Wilson was motivated by racism, but said the outburst encouraged racist views.

"I think Joe's conduct was asinine, but I think it would be asinine no matter what the color of the president," said Dick Harpootlian, who has known Wilson for decades. "I don't think Joe's outburst was caused by President Obama being African-American. I think it was caused by no filter being between his brain and his mouth."


However, all of this stuff about Wilson personally is an utter red herring. Carter didn't just say that Wilson was a racist. He said that "most" of Obama's opponents are racist. That is a false, devious, slander. It's also political suicide. But by all means go on if it makes you feel better. I'm sure public hectoring from Jimmy Carter will turn the polls around.

Mick said...

@Brian Jenkins

You're excluding leaners. 50% support the bill, 47% oppose. You shouldn't cherrypick evidence and then try to make a broad point about it.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Jeff,

You LIE! AGAIN!

Joe Wilson has become the poster child for the people Jimmy Carter was referring to. Its his face on the posters and T-shirts at that 9/12 rally, and he was the featured speaker. He kinda IS the person JC was talking about.

Also, could you please explain how Wilson's opposition to interracial relationships, which he has PUBLICLY denounced as 'immoral', is not racist?

As far as the SCV goes - the current President of that group, and ALL of the senior leadership, are self-proclaimed white supremacists-all of them. And Wilson is a dues paying member. Which means he at least supports them enough to pay part of their salaries through his membership dues.

Cut the bullshit. Joe Wilson is a racist-he opposes interracial relationships, has publicly denounced them, is an active, dues paying subscriber to an organization run by white supremacists-come on, the man's a fucking racist. I'm not letting you weasel out of this.

And furthermore, this is the first guy in the entire history of the United States to publicly insult the POTUS during a speech before a joint session of Congress. Yes, they booed Bush-but they didn't shout "You're a liar!" at him in front of the TV cameras. The first guy to ever do that in the 235 years we've been a Republic, and its a white southern member of a white supremicist organization who has publicly stated he opposes interracial relationships, and that children born of those relationships-like President Obama-are something to be ashamed of-and you insist this isn't racism.

You LIIIIIIIIIIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mick said...

Also, for what it's worth, Carter didn't say that most of the resistance to Obama's policies is racist. He said that "an overwhelming portion" of the "animosity" toward Obama is motivated by race. He's talking about degrees of intensity directed at the man himself and not necessarily his policies. And before any of you fire back with the GWB analogies, how he was treated from 2001 onward, keep in mind that this is health care we're talking about, not war and torture and terrorism. Calling Bush Hitler because he invented a long and costly war out of the thin air might be reductionist and unproductive, but it's not the moral equivalent of calling Obama Hitler six months into his presidency because he wants to give health care to poor people.

Brian Jenkins said...

Mick, I excluded "leaners" for two reasons- they weren't included in last week's poll, and they expressed no opinion when first asked. If they don't have an opinion when first asked, how likely are they to base votes on their leanings- that being, of course, why these polls are performed?

I reject the hypothesis that 9/12 was a game-changer that counteracted Barry's speech, in favor of Occam's Law: neither had any real effect. And that leaves Barry without the public support he needs to nationalize a sixth of the economy (yes, the public option's a back door to nationalization, and Democrats have said as much).

Tony C. said...

You Tell 'Em, Statler!

I couldn't have put it better myself, so I won't try, but I stand with you 100% on this point.

David said...

Investor's Business Daily... where have I heard of them before? Oh right, they're the paper that recently wrote an article claiming that if Stephen Hawkings had to rely on gov't healthcare, we wouldn't have his brilliant mind... only to find out that Hawkings received a huge amount of care from the NHS in the UK. You know, cause he's british, something the writer didn't seem to realize. So, I'm not saying that the IBD is a worthless rag that I wouldn't even line a rat's cage with, but they do seem to pretty much suck at their job.

And for all those people out their trying to defend Rep Wilson, who is pretty clearly a racist, and the folks out there spreading racist ideas and using racist language/imagery... stop it. Trying to say that there was not a racist undertone to the protest this weekend is just silly; we've seen the pictures and the guy who helped organize the event complained that Obama was an "Indonesian Muslim thug". These people were not asked to leave by the protest organizers and their views were treated as legitimate. Remember when people thought it was okay to call Obama a racist when he didn't immediately break off his relationship with Rev. Wright after people heard what they considered racist sermons? It's the same logic. These people are racist and if you tolerate them and especially defend them...you're a racist too!

Look, there are legitimate, rational arguments to be made about health care reform. And even if your concerns are silly, you have a right to voice them. That's why this country is the best country in the world. But if you hang out with the people who have racist views, you’re going to be viewed as a racist…so instead of trying to defend or disregard that racism, try rebuking those folks or apologizing for their presence.

Oh, for people asking about the UCLA study, media matters has a pretty good debrief on it.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200512220003

markymark said...

Brian Jenkins said
'I reject the hypothesis that 9/12 was a game-changer that counteracted Barry's speech, in favor of Occam's Law: neither had any real effect. And that leaves Barry without the public support he needs to nationalize a sixth of the economy (yes, the public option's a back door to nationalization, and Democrats have said as much).'
------------------------------------

Where to begin there. One the Public Option, whilst still on the table is really not a big deal for MOST progressives now. I think most have decided one that the public option is not a big enough deal to make a fuss over, and two lacks public support to make a huge stand over.

But even still, the public option is not a nationalization of any portion of the economy. It is not a backdoor to a single payer system, and I would suggest that allowing insurance companies free reign for any longer would be a route to a single payer scheme.

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

@BDP: Doctors QUIT? Bullshit, this will be disproven in short order.

#1, I've worked extensively with doctors in a major hospital; they don't give a shit where you get your insurance from.


If the insurance does not cover their costs, doctors frequently avoid taking patients with that insurance. See Medicaid.

#2, Beginning doctors are in debt up to their eyeballs and don't actually start earning any money or having a life until they are thirty. THOSE doctors aren't quitting.

#3, What are they going to do instead? Play golf? To a certain extent doctors are in it for the money; but by the age of 55 or so they have all the money they will ever need, and if they are STILL in it for the money they are dumb as rocks. The ones that would REALLY quit are a small part.


So essentially, you are arguing that the vast majority of doctors will have no choice but to work for Obamacare or they will be economically destroyed.

I tend to agree, which is probably why the vast majority of doctors want to avoid that Hobbsian choice and oppose Obamacare.

Tony C. said...

@BJ:

Excluding leaners is idiotic; public opinion includes everybody. Some people are more cautious than others in stating a firm preference in the face of incomplete information; but as they currently understand the issue they are pro-reform, and considering the number of lies and misleading statements out there about the proposed reforms, more in favor (even provisionally) than opposed (provisionally) suggests strong support.

#2, Yes, as a liberal Democrat I hope a public option puts private insurance out of business. To paraphrase the argument from Dean Baker:

The Republicans fear if a public option exists, everybody will switch to it despite the fact that the public option will be a terrible insurance plan that cannot compete with what private insurance offers.

This is a "stupid consumer" argument, basically that conservatives know best what kind of insurance we need, and we poor dumb bastards cannot be allowed even the choice between a government run plan and private insurance, because we are so stupid we will put out of business the fine private insurance.

There is nothing on the table to outlaw private insurance, or force anybody into the public option, and there is nothing on the table that would subsidize the public option with taxpayer money. I suggest reading Baker's article; the truth is that sociopaths are getting rich by taking our premiums and using any bogus excuse possible to refuse our coverage, even if the excuses are lies and clear breaches of contract, and the Republicans and their operatives are enjoying the spray off this firehose of cash and they want to keep it that way.

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

There is nothing on the table to outlaw private insurance

All private heath insurance that the government will not "qualify" will be outlawed within a year under the House Obamacare bill. These mandates will permanently outlaw the HSAs that I use.

...or force anybody into the public option

If you do not purchase insurance, you will have your wages garnished and be put into the public option. When private insurance is put out of business by Obamacare, all of us will share that fate.

...and there is nothing on the table that would subsidize the public option with taxpayer money.

The Kennedy bill explicitly funds Obamacare with taxpayer money. The House bill is silent as to its funding mechanisms.

Obama has already admitted at the Grand Junction townhall that Obamacare will borrow money under US taxpayer guarantees.

I believe the Baucus bill will tax private insurers and thus their insured.

You are also not counting the fact that Obamacare will compel its physicians to accept Medicare and Medicaid compensation tables, which means that doctors will shift the costs of Obamacare to privately insured patients as they do with Medicare and Medicaid already. This is yet another indirect tax.

Donald said...

On my RSS reader The Onion is two slots above 538. When I read Nate's headline, I assumed I was still reading Onion posts.

Amar said...

Billy Tauzin added a rider at midnight to MediCare Part D that nobody noticed, denying the federal government the right to negotiate for lower drug prices.

Why don't we ask Sherrod Brown and Raul Grijalva to add a rider to this or some other bill that removes the 65-year age minimum for MediCare?

What else can we do? Remember people: a corporate state that doesn't respond to its' peoples' democratically expessed will has a name (although I shudder at how often its been misused by the teapartiers): fascism.

markymark said...

The IBD poll was conducted by these people
http://www.technometrica.com/tipp.htm

Who also list the Christian Science Monitor as a client!

Here is a poll saying that 63% of America's doctors support the Public Option. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090914/hl_afp/uspoliticshealthoption_20090914214506

Far be it from me that perhaps the New England Journal of Medicine might perhaps provide a more accurate poll than IBD, but there you go!!

http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790&query=home

Mick said...

"the public option's a back door to nationalization"

You can say that all you want, but it doesn't make it so. The fact that some Democrats have expressed that hope also doesn't make it so. You can debate the merits of the plan in front of you, or you can debate based upon what you consider the worst case scenario many years down the road assuming that consumers might behave a certain way and the private industry might respond in a certain way, etc. Some people objected to the Iraq War because they believed that it represented the beginning of an imperial-like presence of the US in the Middle East with aggressive expansionist goals that included toppling the Iranian government and the ultimate subjugation of all Islamic states by force or coercion. The fact that some Republicans were just peachy with that vision, especially the war against Islam part, doesn't mean that it was ever inevitable.

markymark said...

BDP said
'All private heath insurance that the government will not "qualify" will be outlawed within a year under the House Obamacare bill. These mandates will permanently outlaw the HSAs that I use.'
-----------------------------------

You keep making that patently false claim BDP.

Here is what the ACP say on the issue, in relation to HR3200
'7. Does H.R. 3200 prohibit private insurance and health savings accounts?
No. Persons and small businesses that are eligible to purchase coverage through a health exchange would be able to choose from a wide variety of health plans, all of which would be provided by private insurance plans, with the addition of a public plan option and potentially, a member-run non-profit health insurance cooperative. As noted above, the independent Congressional Budget Office estimates that the vast majority of Americans will be covered under private insurance, with only a relatively small number enrolled in the public plan. Health Savings Accounts, as they are today, would be able to market themselves to the public and enroll persons who choose to get their coverage through an HSA.
H.R. 3200 will require that all insurers, whether offered through an exchange or outside it, comply with insurance market reforms, including prohibitions on excluding persons with pre-existing conditions, guaranteed renewability, and modified community rating. ACP policy has long favored such reforms. Individual insurance companies will eventually have to comply with such requirements. The legislation provides for a “grandfather” period, though, where people can elect to keep their current individual coverage even if it doesn’t meet the new requirements.'
http://www.acponline.org/advocacy/where_we_stand/access/hr3200_faq.pdf

So why are the ACP, who I assume know something about the Bill, wrong?

Jeff said...

Good grief, there is something profoundly disordered about the level of abuse dished out around here. Wilson - whatever his views, which I don't know well and am not inclined to defend - is NOT THE POINT. He's serving a useful function for you, but its almost an exact mirror image of the Van Jones flap. Find some outlier, flay him, use him as poster boy, delegitimate your opponent rather than answer them. All Republicans are racists? Fine, then all Dem are 9/11 truther nuts. There, don't we all feel better.

Obama is loosing the health care battle. It isn't because of racism. If you keep telling yourself that it is, you will never win over the vast majority of well-meaning Americans whose concerns about Obama's plans are perfectly rational. I for one, am a moderate conservative who feels that insurance needs serious reform, but I share the very real concerns about health rationing and cost (I live in Canada, by the way. I'm not a reflexive critic of Canadian health care, but it has plenty of problems.) Obama needs people like me. When Jimmy Carter tries to lump me in with racists, I can't tell you how that makes my blood boil. It's sheer demagogery - of the kind that Carter specializes in.

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

Outlawing certain practices is not outlawing private insurance; and you are being mendacious to conflate the two.

The things being outlawed are what the majority of citizens believe to be social injustices that happen to be legal. It is the job of government to make new law to prohibit what the majority of citizens recognize as exploitation, dirty tricks, breaches of contract and gaming the existing law to screw citizens.

If the only way a private insurance plan can make money is by screwing its customers and sacrificing their health or lives in the name of profits, good riddance to them.

If your HSA cannot meet this standard, we are doing you a favor by outlawing their crimes against humanity.

Tony C. said...

@MarkyMark; re: IBD poll conducted by these people...

Thanks. I wanted to search for that, but had no time...

Sacto Joe said...

BOY has this thread been hijacked!

Can we get back to the subject, please?

Here's my question: How, without at least the vote of Senator Snowe, can ANY health care package be passed? Yes, the revenue-neutral and revenue-earning portions can MAYBE be passed by resolution, but that basically means the COST issues get all bundled up in a separate bill. Good luck getting THAT past Olympia Snowe!

Dangerous said...

It should be called BaucusDoesNotCare, unless you're talking about benefits to the health insurance industry.

To follow up on The Religious Left's comment regarding Mile High Stadium and the size of the Tea-Bagger rally in D.C., I'm sure that that Detroit Lions can find 70,000 screaming, crazed fans for opening day, and they didn't win a game last year.

I've been reading a lot lately on blogs about how the left better worry about the tea-baggers movement since it reflects a deeper distress that the right can tamp. Um, no. Sprio Agnew was a jerk, but he wasn't wrong about the so-called silent majority. Winning a news cycle is not winning the argument.

markymark said...

Sacto Joe, The only answer there is to assume that people who may not support the bill will at least let it get to a full vote. Remember it is 60 votes to get a bill passed, its 60 votes to vote on cloture, once that has been done, you move to a straight vote on the bill. Just because you don't support a bill doesn't mean you will support a fillibuster against it.

Bart DePalma said...

markymark said...

Here is a poll saying that 63% of America's doctors support the Public Option. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090914/hl_afp/uspoliticshealthoption_20090914214506

You poll offered doctors a hypo asking whether they would like insurance expanded, which most doctors would naturally support.

The IBD poll asked doctors about Obamacare, which a heavy majority oppose.

Josh said...

Screw Baucus. Let's move on.

Let's get a vote. I don't care if a few blue dogs vote against the final bill, as long as they don't vote against there being a vote! How could a Democrat support a filibuster against a Democratic bill at least getting a vote. That would be insanity.

Josh said...

Actually the real number is ___73___ percent of doctor's support the public option. That other 10% is those who want ONLY a public option. So obviously they support the public option, they just want even more than that.

Tony C. said...

@Sacto Joe:

How, without at least the vote of Senator Snowe, can ANY health care package be passed?

Simple. There are two votes to consider; the cloture vote (to stop a filibuster) and the vote on the actual Bill.

Senators can vote YEA for cloture and NAY for the Bill. We need 59 votes for cloture. We only need 50 votes to pass the Bill.

So, get all Democrats, PLUS maybe a Republican or two, to vote for cloture, which will stop a Republican Filibuster. Then let some of the Blue Dog Democrats vote NAY on the Bill if they think it will please their constituents. Historically, senators see nearly zero political fallout for voting for cloture if they then vote NAY on the bill. Most constituents either don't know about the cloture vote, or don't like the obstructionism of filibusters and think a straight up or down vote is a fair way to decide.

That is why both sides always tout the up-or-down vote when it is to their advantage, people find it inherently fair. In the USA, at least, we are conditioned to accept election outcomes on a one vote margin; a win is a win. For example, Franken is a senator on a razor thin margin, and while some people might think there was funny business going on, virtually 100% of Americans accept that if a person gets one more vote than the other guy he wins. The same goes for policy, so voting for cloture to "terminate debate" is not very politically dangerous at all, and may win some political favors for the likes of Olympia Snowe.

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

@BDP: Outlawing certain practices is not outlawing private insurance; and you are being mendacious to conflate the two...If your HSA cannot meet this standard, we are doing you a favor by outlawing their crimes against humanity.

So, you are saying that Obamacare does not outlaw private insurance except in the cases where it does.

BTW, precisely who are you or the Obama Administration to tell me what kinds of insurance I may and may not freely contract with for my own health care?

Frankly, you can take your socialist paternalism and shove it where the sun don't shine.

If you do not want an HSA, then you are free to seek the health insurance of your choice - if Obamacare does not outlaw it in the future. The powers being granted the Executive to decide which insurance it will qualify are vague and thus enormous.

Josh said...

re: Snowe. It seems to me that President Obama should have quite a bit of leverage when dealing with her (and Susan Collins.) He did, after all, win Maine by a 58% to 40% margin. Do they really want President Obama campaigning against them telling Mainers that it was their Senators that killed health care reform?

aakash said...

Well, here is a list of all the tax hikes in the Baucus Draft proposal (from Americans for Tax Reform).

Statler N Waldorf said...

Yet again, the Democrats are allowing themselves to be cowed by Repugnants. remember a few years back, when the GOP managed to make the word 'liberal' an insult? Instead of rushing at them head on, and saying, "Yeah, I AM a liberal, and I'M proud of it", the Dems retreated, renaming themselves 'progressive' and avoiding any usage of the L word.

Now, here we run from the GOP again, when they cry 'nationalization!'.

What seems to be missing here is the common sense argument that services that are optimal when their goal is the public good-such as public health, medicine, the police, fire departments, the military-these things work better in the public sector-when they are nationalized.

When you're dealing with goods/services that are optimal when profit is the main motivation behind them-say, luxury items or status symbols, or non-essentai-to-life and nonessential-to-the-social-fabric things liek cars and department store crap, those should remain privatized.

But you wouldn't privatize the Army. Or the Police. Or the Fire Department. Because if you do, they work like shit-they only service their subscribers, undermine each other's efforts in order to compete/increase their market share, and ignore anyone that needs their help to survive, but isn't eligible to receive that help, because they are unable to pay. Also, they would start enforcing laws/policies according to a corporate board's whims rather than the decision-making process we call the ballot box.

Stop turning to jelly the minute the Right runs an ad playing the Carmina Burana in the background calling your polciy nationalization. Its not a bad word unless you cower from it.

Jeez, get a spine, already. The thing that pisses the electorate off when it comes to Democrats is their inability to take a stand on anything. You can't win against the GOP unless you let your testicles descend and quit hiding behind your mother's skirt.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
markymark said...

BDP, well at the moment at least, 'Obamacare' is a hypo. To that end, the NEJM poll offered a simple choice of a public option (perhaps the most controversial part of the Obama plan) which 63% of doctors supported.

I just did a quick google test on Doctors oppose healthcare reform, and Doctors support healthcare reform, which I don't claim to be incredibily scientific, but I think is somewhat representative. Doctors support healthcare reform brought up 6,390,000 links, doctors oppose healthcare reform brought up 1,300,000.

markymark said...

I note BDP hasn't responded to the ACPs clear assertion that you will still be able to put money into an HSA. Is it a paranoid lawyer, or a group of medical professionals who do not know what they are talking about??

Carey said...

I'm glad that the Baucus bill has now been released,

Now we can peruse it to see if, on the off-chance, there are any novel and useful ideas in it that should be adopted, then drop it in the waste basket and move on consider some of the other bills that have been drafted.

This "smoke filled room" approach, in which only industry tools were allowed to participate, was an utterly compromised project from the start. It provided a diversion for the media and blogosphere to discuss, but there was never any chance that something tolerable would emerge from it.

Now it is done, and we can move on.

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

precisely who are you ...

The majority of American citizens, that's who; the same folks that don't let you do other morally repulsive things, like, say, pay people to fight to the death for money. The same people that don't let you engage in practices that harm the rest of us, like driving drunk. The same people that prevent companies from selling unsafe drugs or unsafe food or unsafe products, and thus are "preventing" you from buying those same products.

That's who we are, and we wouldn't be forced into paternalism if you weren't such a god damn child.

William said...

Why do we keep watering down important bills (stimulus, health care) to try to get republican votes? They're not going to even bother reading them before voting against them anyway, so trying to appease them just gives us a less effective bill :p

Bart DePalma said...

Tony C. said...

@BDP: precisely who are you ...

The majority of American citizens, that's who.


1) A substantial majority of the citizenry opposes the government outlawing their insurance, which is why Obama lies on this point in every speech. I will at least credit you with being occasionally honest on this point.

2) Socialists generally and falsely claim that they speak on behalf of the proletariat when in fact they only seek to impose their own will on their fellow citizens.

3) This is why we in the Tea Party movement correctly observe the Obama and his followers such as yourself are a clear and present threat to our liberties. A little more than 13 months before we use the ballot box to toss out the socialists.

Smitty said...

@ Bart D said...

"1) A substantial majority of the citizenry opposes the government outlawing their insurance ...snipped ... "

Sir, please provide concrete documentation for each of the following:

1) Substantial majority of the citizenry

2) Specific text in any one or all plans before the House or Senate that definitively "outlaws their insurance".


The original points #2 and # are obviously partisan rhetoric.

I do, however, stress the need for concrete documentation for your #1 point.

Bart DePalma said...

Smitty:

Go check pages 1-15 of the House Obamcare bill which mandates coverage that will outlaw my HSA and then grants the Executive enormous power to add further mandates with no discernible limit.

Page 16 is the grandfather provision that will allow you to keep your present insurance so long as it does not change. All insurance changes annually to account for changed costs and coverage. Thus, you will be compelled to obtain a government qualified insurance policy when your present insurance expires within a year.

There are numerous polls that have found that the vast majority of folks are both insured and happy with their insurance. Go google it. Why do you think that Obama keeps lying about your ability to keep your own insurance?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Hey Tony,

Now that's what I'm talking about. Glad to see a Democrat that doesn't roll over the minute a Repugnant tries to cow him. Its about time.

They rest of y'all should follow this fine example of liberal testosterone. Flex a little muscle, twist a few arms-and above all, stand up for what you believe in, and stop throwing your best ideas under the bus for fear of being called.... a Democrat.

May I say that Tony C here has the finest looking spinal column I have ever witnessed in a Democrat, he is an extraordinary specimen of what you all need to develop if you want to win in 2010.

markymark said...

BDP kindly explain why the ACP is lying in that case, when it clearly says people will still be able to contribute to HSAs? Why do you think you know more that them??

Smitty said...

Bart D.

I've read that grandfather clause several times. It only makes sense when a person reads ALL of the other pages in the original draft of HR3200.

It says your insurance will be changed to include HR3200 provisions as a) if you make your premium payments, you cannot be dropped; b) your policy will not have a lifetime coverage limit; and, c) your annual out-of-pocket expenses shall not exceed a set limit.

Are you saying you do not want those provisions in any insurance policy you have? It does NOT completely rewrite your insurance coverage.

As for your HSA, there are three markups for the original draft HR3200, as well as a draft from the Senate H.E.L.P. committee and a draft from the Finance "gang of six".

First, the drafts in the House must be turned into one bill, then approved. The two drafts in the Senate must be turned into one bill, then approved.

Second, the two approved bills go to conference to be turned into one bill.

Third, the final "one" bill must be approved by the House and by the Senate.

HSA and FSA accounts remain in at least one of the current draft bills.

Bart - yes, numerous polls show folks who already have insurance would like to keep their insurance. THOSE are the folks who have insurance through their employers. Policies provided by employers, especially in large companies, are NOT the same as policies by small companies or individual policies. That is like saying all metalic blue cars are identical!

We should not confuse all of those subtleties into one grand statement, followed with "Obama lies" assertions.

Davy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Davy said...

Statler!!! You're back! We missed you.
There are some new conservatrolls here who have yet to be schooled by you.

@Jeff

but I have yet to see ONE racist sign

Really? You should stop watching Fox infochannel so much.

I could go further into this topic but I see by scanning some of the other posts here that you have pretty much been handed your hat.

I will say that while I don't think every person that opposes this bill doesn't have issues or substantive arguments, it appears that an overwhelming majority do not. This is evidence by the fact that they don't want to discuss the plan at town halls, they just want to shout it down. Or the fact that many of them can be misled so easily to believe things about the bill or the motivation of those trying to reform it that simply aren't true. Once again, they dislike the messenger more than they do the message.

But I can sum up my thoughts about your perspective, Jeff, in two words: you're wrong.

Davy said...

As to Joe Wilson. There are reasons we have decorum in the chamber. Back before we had them, if people had opposing opinions a brawl could break out. In one case a member (ironically from South Carolina) beat another person senseless with his cane while the man was speaking in the chamber. We don't need to revert to that.

As to President Carter. He's an elder statesman and former Governor of Georgia. I grew up in Alabama. I think we know racism when it rears it's ugly head.

Davy said...

I realize there is probably already a new thread of discussion at a newer post already but I'm on a roll here.

Let me address what I think are the legitimate fears of conservatives and why I have little empathy with Glen Beck's crocodile tears.

They fear that the world as they know it is coming to an end. Got some hard news for all the Caucasians of America: it is coming to an end. People who identify themselves as white will eventually be the minority. More people are listing themselves as mixed race on census polls. Further, more people are beginning to realize that the unending relentless abuse of our resources by unregulated capitalism is doing a lot of harm to the planet (not just physically but politically as well). A new paradigm is required. So those heady post WWII days of the privileged white American dream is unsustainable.

Change is not necessarily bad and white conservatives should not fear it.

Bart DePalma said...

markymark said...

BDP kindly explain why the ACP is lying in that case, when it clearly says people will still be able to contribute to HSAs? Why do you think you know more that them??

Sure.

The Obamacare legislation demands a minimum level of insurance covering nearly every type of medical care.

HSAs only insure preventative and catastrophic care. The insured then use the monies in their savings account to pay for all other care they choose to utilize.

Because the HSAa do not insure some of the care mandated under Obamacare, they will not be qualified by the government.

I prefer HSAs because they give me the power to self ration care to suit my needs rather than granting that power to a bureaucrat in a private or government plan. That kind of freedom drives socialists like Tony C insane, as you can see from his posts.

Bart DePalma said...

Smitty said...

I've read that grandfather clause several times. It only makes sense when a person reads ALL of the other pages in the original draft of HR3200.

It says your insurance will be changed to include HR3200 provisions as a) if you make your premium payments, you cannot be dropped; b) your policy will not have a lifetime coverage limit; and, c) your annual out-of-pocket expenses shall not exceed a set limit.

Are you saying you do not want those provisions in any insurance policy you have? It does NOT completely rewrite your insurance coverage.


1) You are missing all of the other mandated insurance coverage.

2) I have no general problem with (a). However, most insurance policies also have necessary patient cooperation requirements to maintain coverage. This is basic insurance law.

3) It should be my choice as to the duration of my coverage. (b) will spike costs because insurers will have to assume the worst scenarios to build in enough cushion to cover lifetime treatment.

4) (c) will spike costs because the more health care I consume, the more is dumped on the insurer and thus the insured through higher premiums. I would rather have lower premiums and decide what care I wish to spend money on in an HSA. This is one of the provisions which will almost certainly outlaw my HSA.

Jeff said...

I still haven't seen one racist sign from the protest Saturday. Davy, can you provide a link to one please. There may be a few, and that's deplorable, but I haven't seen them. They certainly weren't widespread, because the vast majority of those in attendance were not racists. Do you people serious disagree with this. Are you required to live in some sort of liberal fantasy land in order to maintain your political views? That's no better than Glen Beck style nuttery.

Pratter on about Wilson all you want. I'm sorry I got dragged into that, because he's a distraction. The real point is this. The Dems will implode if they keep flogging this "all of our opponents are racists" line. It is political suicide, because it is not true and represents a crude racist discourse all its own.

As for Jimmy Carter as an elder statesman - spare me. Ted Kennedy was right about him. He is a bitter, bitter old man - who still thinks he was somehow tricked out of the presidency. His comments about Israel are vile. His criticisms of Bush were not "statesmanlike" (surpassed only by the screaming fits of Al Gore - lest we forget about all of this while demanding "respect" for Obama). Now he is slandering a large swath of the country. Let's have a quick poll of the country. Do you agree or disagree with JC's statement that . . . He'd get crushed by opposition.

Quick question: what do you think the White House makes of this commentary by your party's "elder statesman". I'll bet they are in a panic about it.

Jeff said...

Matt Welch put it best:

[If] the Tea Party movement is significantly animated by racism or appeals to white racial resentment, we will certainly find out about it, and it will lose whatever popularity it has now, because racism in this country is genuinely unpopular. And by the same token, if the Great Klan Hunt fails to turn up more than just a fringe scattering of kooks, it may be time for some on the Air America left to begin considering that limited government sentiment is not automatically a form of sublimated racism.

Tony C. said...

@BDP:

1) You are lying, there is no outlawing of any insurance program, and I don't say there will be. Although I would LIKE single payer, there is no plan to HAVE single payer. If the public option competes the private insurance out of business, that is not "outlawing" them any more than the automobile "outlawed" horses.

It is amazing how much you idiots repeat the illogical mantra that the government cannot run anything but a public OPTION will somehow out-compete those brilliant private industry sociopaths.

2) Look up socialism you blabbering moron. We are not vesting the government with any ownership, we are not outlawing any private insurance company in any way, we are letting the government compete with private industry and may the best option win.

It isn't socialism if the majority of the people WANT it, that is Democracy. There is absolutely nothing in Democracy that prohibits collective action; we don't have a for-profit FBI, or for-profit FDA, or for-profit FAA or SEC or court system or military, either. According to your infantile definition every one of these should make us "socialists."

Go back to class, dufus, you flunked this course.

Smitty said...

@Jeff,

"I still haven't seen one racist sign from the protest Saturday."

Just google on the internet. I'm white, never lived in the south, yet I saw signs, on the internet and on television that "I" found racist. I lived in a non-white environment for several years. I definitely experienced racism...clerks would be too busy to take my order even though I was the only person present, etc.

There is racism among some of the protesters. I do not think it is present in all. Instead, I see older individuals filled with fear who seem to have found a focal point to express that fear.

In my humble opinion, it would not matter who currently sits in the Oval Office. Many of those protesters would still be out there with their signs. It is part of the "package" during a severe economic recession/depression...in most countries.

shiloh said...

Again, the Vietnam war caused LBJ not to seek re-election, now that was a protest!

Yes Virginia, America still has a race problem, especially the party of No! who incidentally should be more worried re: Hispanics, than African/Americans, who they have now totally lost for several generations. Probably have lost Hispanics for several generations also. Would posit any discussion about race hurts Reps more than Dems as older Whites continue to pass and Hispanics continue to multiply.

Re: racism and Truman. Truman desegregated the U.S. military, 'nuf said!

Oh yea, re: the health care bill. Underestimate Obama at one's own peril!

carry on

p.s. when clueless RNC token chairman Steele is forced to talk about race, PRICELESS !!!

shiloh said...

Vietnam war protest ...

carry on

IcarusPhoenix said...

Guys, I still say engaging Bart DePalma is a waste of time; just address his incorrect information in passing (for the sake of observers) while moving on to your other points. Addressing him directly only causes him to spew more debunked information, which you feel the need to further address, thus taking your further and further from the path of reasonable discourse... it's a sad, vicious circle.

Now, for Jeff (since no one else seems to have acceded to your fairly reasonable request for links); I think the fact that you haven't seen racist imagery from Saturday means that you need to take in a wider variety of news sources (something which you are admittedly already doing better than most people, as evidenced by your presence here). But, for your edification, here you go.

And yes, I acknowledge that these are from Huffington Post, an undeniably liberal site, but the signs in question still exist:

The story itself: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/12/taxpayer-march-on-washing_n_284477.html
And my favorites:
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37537_large.jpg (decidedly racist)
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37538_large.jpg
(also racist, not to mention just dumb)
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37542_large.jpg (on your left, just hysterically in need of a basic history lesson)
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37544_large.jpg
(hypocritical and childishly threatening)
and the one that was mass-produced:
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37536_large.jpg (Just simply hateful)

And people wonder why we don't take these folk seriously? Really?

Tony C. said...

Racism Is Not Dead

I am anglo, in fact German by appearance (one part of my ancestry), but my extended family (uncles, aunts, neices, nephews) includes blacks, hispanics and asians.

I have also been a contract consultant in over twenty major companies. As a white I have heard overt racism at the boardroom level of major companies; and as a family member I have heard of clear racism at the street level, and in one instance helped collect damages for it (by financing a lawsuit filed by my brother-in-law).

Whites without reasonably close ties to non-whites may not even notice racism, but when blacks get turned down by ten times as many employers as their white peers, that is a ton of empirical evidence for racism they see that whites don't.

Several recent sociological studies say the same thing: If they send resumes out that are exactly the same except one has a "black" sounding name (and different phone numbers), the "white" name gets about five times as many calls for interviews as the black name. With a neutral name, when black and white actors are trained to interview by the same coach, the white actor still gets about five times as many job offers.

Racism is alive and kickin' in America.

Persuter said...

Icarus, while I certainly agree that these signs don't promote anything other than a personal animosity towards the President and that it's difficult to take the holders seriously, I agree with Jeff that they are not explicitly racist. There's a couple of signs I've seen which start bouncing in that direction, i.e., "Brother, you're not my keeper" and "Mack Daddy In Chief" or something like that, but the signs you've posted don't strike me as racist at all.

The personal animosity may well be motivated by racism, but it's tough to show that in any way from these pictures. (Forum threads from freerepublic.com, on the other hand...)

Jeff said...

Icaraus,
The signs you post are extreme and ouside the bounds of civil discourse. Almost none of them were even arguably racist. (I couldn't open a few of them, but most.) The "Bury Obamacare" with Kennedy, for instance, is tasteless in the extreme, but how is it racist?

The is a critical point. Extreme opposition, extremely stated, is almost inevitable with a protest of this size. We saw a LOT of it - including death threats, invocations of totalitarianism, etc - in the anti-Bush protests. It needs to be denounced on all sides. But the accusations of a widespread racism is simply not sustainable. There may have been a nut or two, but if there had been widespread racism at the protest or in the signs, that would have been widely reported on. It wasn't. This is a fevered fantasy, designed to delegitimate rather than answer critics. It's an effort to put the president above criticism. Imagine if Bush's defenders had said that all critcism was "anti-Christian" and thus to be denounced as a bigotry. It would have been rightly denounced. This should be too.

Persuter said...

Imagine if Bush's defenders had said that all critcism was "anti-Christian" and thus to be denounced as a bigotry. It would have been rightly denounced.

Or imagine if they said that all criticism was "anti-American" and that it was near-treasonous to question a president's decisions during a time of war.

Oh wait...

Davy said...

Wasn't planning on coming back to this thread.

Jeff,

Check the lead stories on Countdown or Maddow last night at MSNBC.com

There aren't many people foolish enough to overtly display racist feelings. Nobody's carrying a sign saying 'Throw the Nigger Out!'. However, the Nazi stuff is offensive enough to make up for it.

Done defending this point. Back to the next thread.

IcarusPhoenix said...

Jeff:
In the case of most of those, I didn't call them racist. As often as possible, I do try to avoid that word, because it has the same trap as Hate Crimes laws; I cannot claim to know what someone else is thinking. I'd also like to point out that - anonymous internet forum posters aside - the word is being used far more these days by Republicans, be it to describe Democrats, or to claim Democrats are using it to describe them. Do Democrats use the word "racist" to describe certain actions? Yes. However, the GOP has gotten so concerned that anything they say against a black President will be labeled as such (perhaps on the assumption that everyone is as absolutist as they), that they frequently launch preemptive defenses against such charges that no one has made.

It is my opinion that the first two are racist or bigoted, and certainly I doubt the "terrorist" charge in the first would be made half as frequently about a white President, though we've definitely seen the right bandy that about a lot towards Democrats. As for the second, I think the bigotry lies in the automatic assumption that "Muslim" is bad. In the past, there have been far more extreme and unequivocally racist ones, but you asked specifically about Saturday, and no one had yet addressed your question.

As for the remaining three, I didn't call a single one racist, but I did show them as examples of the extremism and lack of basic knowledge that you claim - erroneously, in my opinion - are outliers. I would like to think that they are outliers for the GOP, but increasingly, there is not much vocal opposition from most of the Republican Party towards these sort of tactics, and for the Tea Partiers themselves, these are not outliers, but demonstrable Standards of Procedure. Organizers spout similar slogans and outright falsehoods themselves, and the Party apparatus doesn't object.

Nate wrote several days ago that one of the problems with the concept of a "moderate" Republican is that the seats the Democratic Party flipped last hear were the more centrist seats, and thus it was the Democratic victory that pushed the GOP demonstrably further right; after all, the few moderates they have left are worried about primary challenges from the right, and thus lurch to the right themselves.

Mike in Maryland said...

A bit more evidence of 'Representative' Joe Wilson's background of being a racist:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Confederate-Flag-flown-over-the-SC-Capital-Joe-Wilson_W0QQitemZ370259443610QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item56352ebf9a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/09/rep-joe-wilson-said-the-confederate-heritage-is-very-honorable-in-1999.html

Mike in Maryland

Jeff said...

Whoa. Rachael Maddow has weighed in against us. I tremble.

Seriously, the amnesia is amazing. "Nazi" and "domestic terrorist" were two of the most common insults hurled at Bush. Its absurd how quickly all of this has been rewritten. As if the left was sitting around in seminar-style civil discourse during the last eight years.

"Yeah, but that was Bush, that was the war, that was . . . " Exactly. Those were substantive political differences, if intemperately expressed at times. Which is exactly what is going on now. You can concentrate on the nuts all you want to. It serves a certain polemical purpose, I suppose. But that doesn't do anything to defuse the legit criticisms of Obama's program. Nor will it win over the doubters, and there are a LOT of doubters right now (a lot of whom are pretty ticked off at being called a racist).

Jamison said...

Well, this is the end of the line for old Max. Obama had little option other than to let Max Baucus and Kent Conrad dick around for half a year - both men backed Obama against the Clinton machine when it was still near-suicidal to do so. They earned a lot of IOU's with the POTUS, and they've blown it all on this farce. I'm sure Max's motive was never, ever reform, he simply wanted to orchestrate a massive bailout for his pimps in the HMO industry, just like Geithner was able to orchestrate for his sugar daddies at Goldman-Sachs. Too bad for him the GOP are too willing now to shaft their corporatist buddies just to score points against the POTUS. So, no big payday for murder-by-spreadsheet, Inc., and no love for old Max. If Harry Reid had ball one he'd strip Baucus of his gavel, but we all know that'd never happen.

Hechicera said...

I find most of these polls useless.

I would switch from "telling my congressman to vote for" to "against" depending on what parts of the different bills get included, and depending on the wording of things like the public option.

The polls need to spell out what bill, what version of things (like what version of the public option or what version of the funding method) ... and none do. And that is a useless suggestion since few people know the variations, much less feel comfortable with the level of explanation they have currently. The only people comfortable knowing that they would, or would not support the bill are ideologs that need no explanation or ration basis for their support (or lack of it). A group I am associated with met Hagan's people and came out saying, I'm sure she supports the public option, but we have no idea which public option she supports. Oi.

Even Baucus' bill is not detailed.

Davy said...

Well I had to come back. Not one to normally tip my hat to trolls. Jeff will be glad to know the White House agrees with him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32869276/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

y2roby said...

This seems like a good time for this Onion article from 2001.

Max Baucus: I'm such a shitty Senator

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33420

"I've been "serving" the great state of Montana in the U.S. Senate since 1978. You'll notice I put "serving" in quotes, because, let's face it, I suck. My wife has been pleading with me not to say this publicly, insisting that it's not true, that I'm a capable and dedicated public servant, blah, blah, blah. Bless her dear heart, but she's just being nice. Because, folks, I am telling you, I am hands-down the shittiest senator in the history of the Senate. The worst.

The other day, I was in my office, thumbing through some old pieces of legislation I'd either authored or co-sponsored. The whole time, I was thinking, "Christ, what a hack I am." Take my 1993 masterwork, S.915, the Semiconductor Investment Act. Section 2a of the bill states, "IN GENERAL–Section 168(e)(3)(A) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to three-year property) is amended by striking 'and' at the end of clause (i), by striking the period at the end of clause (ii), and by inserting at the end the following: '(iii) any semiconductor manufacturing equipment.'"

What the hell is that shit? As I recall, it had something to do with semiconductor manufacturing equipment. But you'd never know, what with the way I buried its meaning under a tidal wave of I-know-all-the-fancy-schmancy-bill-writing lingo."

Uncle Al said...

@Tony C.:
Ah yes -- you, of course, know everything about everyone on Medicare. I see now that I was deluding myself when I dropped my mother-in-law off at the local ER not two weeks ago for non-emergency care because no doctor within 20 miles could see her before the next week... despite the fact that we were in north metro Atlanta and there are two major hospitals within five miles of my house, with the concomitant number of doctor's offices in the area. Of course, no one on Medicaid would *ever* have to use the ER for a serious but not yet emergency medical condition... your stunning logic has convinced me of the errors of my memory.

(sarcasm off)

This incident (the latest in a series) does, however, put a spin on the Medicare satisfaction surveys so often quoted. I would consider being forced into the ER in that situation unacceptable -- that has to do with the fact that I have a day job plus a wife and four kids. My mother-in-law, OTOH, was completely satisfied with hanging out at the ER for four hours (the time between dropping her off and picking her up) -- she took her knitting with her to stay busy. She would show up as a satisfied customer of Medicaid in a survey... and if the question being asked is "Does Medicaid serve its current customer base adequately?". I'd have to agree that it does. But that's different from believing that Medicaid or something like it but with a different name could meet the needs of the general U.S. population. Based on my observations of the system at work, I conclude that it can't scale up to serve the entire U.S. population.

I'd like to be wrong, because the link between employment and medical insurance causes all sorts of problem; even when employment doesn't change, small businesses generally swap plans every year or two looking for the best deal, which causes all sorts of issues keeping in-network relationships with health care providers. But I have no faith in either a Republican government or a Democratic government to solve the problem without making it worse.

Davy said...

My position on the matter remains unchanged. And I suspect the White House strategically had no choice to take that position in order not to fan the flames of racism. I suspect more than one person in the White House thinks something is bubbling up under the surface.

Rudy said...

.... or even if they don't, it's always useful to keep those racisn embers ready to be fanned in just such an emergency when outflanked again.

Dwight said...

Davy said...

My position on the matter remains unchanged. And I suspect the White House strategically had no choice to take that position in order not to fan the flames of racism. I suspect more than one person in the White House thinks something is bubbling up under the surface.


Of course. It would also rile up the people that aren't fueled by, or are in denial that they are more than a little fueled by the colour of his skin. That would be dismisive of their other beefs with his agenda, no need to piss on that.

Besides I suspect it isn't so much whether or not someone disagrees. I suspect it is the tone and intensity, and perhaps what motives they see for Obama, with which the disagreement is displayed. Take Rep Wilson, is it likely that he would give a thumbs up even if Obama was named John Wanye and white as snow? Very unlikely. But the question is, and what Carter I think was addressing and what Gibbs was not, would he have jumped up and shouted "You lie" during Obama's speech?


P.S. BTW the use of "Obama is a Nazi" rhetoric is endorsed, by of all people, the dezions of Storm Front. They are used to being deamonized. It suits their purposes of "avoiding enslavement" by The Jew (and their nigger accomplices). So good luck to anyone trying to claim that "the skinheads wouldn't do that, to them Hitler was good".

markymark said...

BDP,

Then why, please explain to me, does the ACP seem to be convinced that you will be able to keep you HSA? Are you suggesting they are flat out lying?

Tony C. said...

@Uncle Al:

Well there is your problem, Uncle Al, your observations do not comport with either my observations or polls, but you are nevertheless ready to conclude that entire existing successful national programs cannot "scale up" to serve everybody.

Is that what passes in your mind for rational? They're already "scaled up," dude. by overwhelming majority seniors like Medicare. The fact that you are personally inconvenienced by some demographic/geographic circumstance does not project to the rest of the country.

Jeff said...

In the interest of keeping the debate on race honest, and since I raised it, I'll report that CNN did find one clearly racist sign against Obama. They broadcast it last night. So I have seen one. It was stomach turning.

However, given the fact that they kept this thing on the TV for 3 full minutes during the panel discussion, its clear they would have broadcast more if they had found them. So I stand by my argument that racism is not a significant factor here. Gergen - no apologist for the right - called Carter's accusations a slander. The White House itself denounced it. But Carter goes on repeating it last night. Is he some sort of conservative plant?

I don't deny that there are some racists on the right. There are also some on the left no? Anti-semites, for instance? Even hostility to blacks (the fabled WV Dems). Might there not be a fair number of racists holding their nose to SUPPORT Obama because they want tire duties, card check, etc. Pt is, the phenomenon is small on both sides, and it was a fatal mistake to racialize these policy discussions.

I was staggered last night to be told by Al Sharpton that we need more "civility" in race discussions.

Nick said...

Carter said that racism was a major influence on the people that said that Obama was a reincarnation of Hitler (because he wants health care?), described him as an animal or said that he should be buried with Kennedy. He didn't say that most of the people that oppose Obama's health care proposals are racist unless you are charging that those sort of sentiments are the same as the majority of those opposing.

Steve Blake said...

I have an idea. Let's all embrace our founding fathers and limit the control of government in our lives. In fact, let's resurrect the US Constitution, and erase 60+ years of red-ink. Next, in order to increase revenues into the treasury, let's drastically reduce marginal income tax rates across the board equally for everyone, and abolish capital gains taxes. The jobless rate will vanish. Later, we can dig up Ronald Reagan and cast him in gold, next to Lincoln in our national monument. Finally, thank our heavenly Father for a perfect nation under God. Then, rebuild the Twin Towers in 400 days or less. Lift the embargo on Cuba. Tell the NCAA to go fly a kite. AFL-CIO too. And Iran.

Steve Blake said...

.... and impeach Obama for failing to uphold his oath to the USA.

God bless America.

Steve Blake said...

And FYI, our country does not have a racist problem within the middle working class and the upper wealthy. Marin Luther King was correct in his vision for America, and American largly upholds his vision. It's the elite left wing that makes a small economy out of race look like an epidemic on NBC/CBS. My neighborhood cares nothing about your color... as does most of the USA. Farakan and Jessie Jackson make a living making race an issue that does not really exist. Real Americans love one another.

shiloh said...

Steve, your (3) posts remind me of 'The Great Escape' quote: MacDonald: Why didn't anyone think of that before? It's so stupid, it's positively brilliant! ;)

Dude, although your rant didn't make much sense, it was somewhat entertaining and believe me when I say, your totally politically bankrupt Reps really, really do want to dig up Reagan!

take care

Dwight said...

Steve Blake said...
My neighborhood cares nothing about your color... as does most of the USA


That's good to hear. That's entirely different than there not being serious race problems. Welcome to the south, which currently is still part of the Union.

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