In spite of last week’s better-than-expected jobs report, many intelligent observers seem convinced that the unemployment rate, which fell nominally to 9.4 percent last month, will nevertheless almost certainly hit 10 percent or higher before the situation really rights itself. Here’s the New Republic’s Noam Schieber making the case. Here’s the White House. Here’s Intrade, where you can make about 2:1 on your money if the unemployment rate is below 10 percent in December.
Although it’s foolish to try to predict economic indicators, I think these observers are probably wrong: the recession likely does not have enough gas left to get us to 10 percent unemployment.
Principally, I think these analysts may simply be underestimating how much impact last week’s numbers should have on our expectations for going forward. After four straight months in which the rate of job losses had declined, the number jumped abruptly upward in June, accelerating to what was then reported as a net of 467,000 lost jobs. It wasn’t clear whether the jobs situation was still improving fairly rapidly, was improving but only slowly, or in fact the momentum was entirely sideways or was even getting worse:
After getting the July numbers, however – which included downward revisions to the reported job losses for May and June – the situation would now seem to be much less ambiguous: the jobs picture is steadily brightening, and within a couple of months, the economy will in all likelihood begin to actually create jobs:
In order for unemployment to hit 10 percent, a net of roughly 1 million more people would need to become unemployed, assuming no change in the size of the labor force (which is a big assumption and one we’ll examine in a moment). This almost cetainly won't happen. Last month, 247,000 jobs were lost according to the payroll survey, and 155,000 more people became unemployed according to the household survey. (What’s the difference between these two numbers? We’ll discuss that too in a bit.) Given that the numbers are improving, it’s hard to see how you can squeeze another million or so job losses of 150-300K per month -– you’d need the employment picture to completely flatline for another 4-5 months, or for what now seems to be a fairly robust trend to actually reverse itself.
Note, however, what I stipulated earlier: assuming no change in the size of the labor force. Ordinarily, about 125,000 additional people each month enter the economy. So it’s not enough merely to break even on the job creation numbers; you have to be slightly into positive territory to avoid seeing the unemployment rate go up as a result of these new job-seekers.
In July, however – as well as in June – the size of the labor force actually declined, according to the household survey. This is what caused the unemployment rate to decline: although the numerator (the number of people who have jobs) in fact slightly decreased, the denominator (the size of the labor force) decreased more, causing the metric to improve. Some of this is because of so-called discouraged workers – people who do not have a job but have given up on looking for one, and (for reasons that I do not entirely agree with) do not meet the Department of Labor’s definition of being "unemployed". This discouraged workers story has been a bit oversold though: U-4, the measure of unemployment that includes discouraged workers, went down too. Most of this, rather, is a matter of people finding somewhat longer-term alternatives to seeking employment: going back to school, early retirement, joining the Army or the Peace Corps, etc. In addition, both legal and illegal immigration are declining, which takes some pressure off the growth of the labor force. There may also be some reversion to the mean, since these metrics are subject to measurement error and since the labor force had supposedly increased by higher-than-usual amounts in April and May.
What observers like Scheiber are worried about is that as the economy shows some signs of life, the labor force will begin to increase again, perhaps even at a greater-than-normal rate, as discouraged workers have their morale boosted and go out and look for jobs. I agree that the labor force is more likely to return to growth than to continue declining – however, I think these concerns are overstated. If we look back at past recessions, we find that the labor force grew by an average of 0.44 percent in the six months after they were declared over. This compares to an average of 0.77 percent growth for all six-months periods since 1948:
People do not jump right back into the labor force the moment a recession is over. Oftentimes, indeed, they can’t, because they’ve made somewhat long-term commitments – good luck ditching the army because the local bank is having a hiring fair back at home in Topeka. These effects are fairly strongly lagged, probably by at least 3-9 months, and usually occur only once the jobs picture has gotten to the point where it’s actually pretty darn good – not just when it’s merely improving. Where we’ll see these effects is in, say, January of 2011, when the employment rate might not budge much even if a couple hundred thousand new jobs are created. But the unemployment rate should already be safely clear of 10 percent long before that.
If the labor force grows at its typical post-recessionary rate of 0.44 percent over the next six months, that means that the economy will need to avoid losing 375,000 more jobs between now and January for unemployment to stay below 10 percent. While there will almost certainly be some additional job losses this month and probably in September, I’d take about even odds on the economy gaining or losing jobs in October and November, and expect it to probably be creating jobs in December and January. In other words, I think it will win the race against the growth of the labor force. The most likely scenario is that the unemployment rate will flirt with 10.0 percent but not quite reach it.
I've also built a simple model that attempts to predict what the unemployment rate will look like based on lags of two variables: the unemployment rate from the household survey, and the net payrolls number from the establishment survey. These numbers measure two slightly different things: the household survey measures the number of employed people (as well as the size of the labor force) whereas the establishment survey measures the number of jobs. Someone who held down multiple jobs would theoretically be counted twice in the establishment survey but only once in the household survey. In addition, the household survey accounts for some types of employment (farm work, self-employment) that are not reflected in the establishment survey.
More to the point, though, these surveys are just that – surveys – and therefore they’re subject to the usual types of distortions and measurement errors. The establishment survey tends to be more reliable than the household survey – if they’re giving you contradictory information, that's the one you should trust. But both provide some useful, non-redundant information.
With this admittedly rather simple model I show the unemployment rate rising slightly, but peaking at 9.6 percent in October and November. I then show it beginning a steady, and actually fairly robust decline, with about 400,000 jobs being created each month by next summer.
Don’t take this that seriously – although you can say the same thing of almost any economic forecast -- but what’s interesting is how different the forecast would look if we had run it based on June’s numbers. That would have showed an unemployment rate that hit 10.0 percent in September and remained there until February, peaking at 10.2 percent around Thanksgiving. The seemingly small amount by which last month’s numbers beat expectations – the economy did between 75,000 and 200,000 jobs better than anticipated, depending on whether you look at the establishment or household numbers – makes a rather large difference in terms of what we might anticipate for the next 18-24 months. This could have some fairly huge political implications too. The September 2010 unemployment rate, which is the last one voters will see before they go to the polls for the midterms, would have been projected at 8.6 percent based on last month’s data; it’s now projected to be 7.9 percent.
(By the way, this model is decidedly more optimistic about the velocity of the jobs recovery than are most mainstream observers . I wouldn’t necessarily believe in the prospect of a more rapid, robust recovery in employment simply because this silly little model says so – but I also think the consensus forecasts are unduly pessimistic, for reasons I’ll explain in another article.)
Overall, the conventional wisdom seems to be that the odds are about 2:1 in favor of unemployment hitting 10.0 percent in at least one month between now and next spring. While that’s certainly possible, I’d posit that the actual odds are more like the reverse – 2:1 against double-digit unemployment. That doesn't mean that I'd run out and buy stocks, which are already trading at a price that would imply they've fully priced in something between a U-shaped and V-shaped recovery, or that I'd cancel my plans to go back to school to go out and find work. But I think we've grown so accustomed to bad news that we've forgotten how to recognize good news when we see it; leading indicators have been turning upward for months now, both in the United States and in other countries, and now we finally have a jobs report that reflects that optimism. A lot of folks think I'm making too much of Friday's employment numbers; I'll take 2:1 that they're making too little of it.
8.10.2009
Why Unemployment (Probably) Won't Hit 10 Percent
by Nate Silver @ 5:49 AM...see also econometrics, economy, forecasting, stimulus
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161 comments
An exceptionally rosy scenario you are painting there, Nate. I agree that the general direction of the unemployment rate will be downwards in Q4, Q1 2010 and Q2 2010. However, the looming tax increases on Jan. 1, 2011 will stifle hiring at small businesses in Q3 and Q4 in 2010 and the higher minimum wage will keep teen employment and employment of people without a HS diploma at double-digit levels for the forseeable future. Given the sharp dropoff in people looking for work (almost 800,000 last month), the unemployment rate would have been 9.9% - 10.0% this past month had the same number of people looked for work in July as there was in June.
Essentially, if Obama gets either the current health-care proposal or cap-and-trade proposal passed, the economy will shed jobs sharply as these proposals will strangle the economic recovery in the cradle.
NJ'moderate' said
'Essentially, if Obama gets either the current health-care proposal or cap-and-trade proposal passed, the economy will shed jobs sharply as these proposals will strangle the economic recovery in the cradle.'
--------------------------------
I find fault with this general formula. Its something conservatives love to suggest. But it ignores the fact that companies and employers tend to be really quite flexible in adapting to government legislation of this type. Minimum wages and rises in the such do not cause unemployment. Is there anything in any of the many healthcare proposals flying around that will cause jobs to go? Surely not? Actually surely a public option will make healthcare a less desirable employment benefit so therefore companies struggling to make ends meet, might feel slightly better about either reducing or totally ending healthcare benefits to employees? So therefore you could argue that the current Healthcare proposals will benefit, espeically small, businesses?
Or Cap and Trade, its possible, as I understand it, to gain essentially tax credits if you reduce unclean energy consumption, or use more clean energy. Again, surely small businesses especially could take advantage of that, and benefit.
I am not saying these things will definitely happen, but business owners tend to be hardy souls, they tend to be able to adjust to whatever is thrown at them. I think its worth trusting them to cope.
Do the unemployment numbers count people who have run out of the 79 week federal extension? For a lot of people, they've run out of unemployment.
The very definition of a non-robust statistic.
C'mon Nate; if you can throw one number out and get a completely different prediction, your formula or model or regression is not trustworthy; it is too subject to influence by an outlier, and you failed to adjust for that:
If they modified the statistics for previous months, that gives you an obvious signal of how much error can be made in the measurement process. Use a small sample distribution. But you didn't do that, even though you have the information.
If there is one thing students should learn in statistics that I think is woefully undersold, it is the sensitivity of models and regressions to outliers and bad measurements. One outlier can skew a regression line 90 degrees, or in general make it a far worse predictor than a simple average, median, or even last sample.
But thanks for the air painting, I guess.
Thank you for catching U4, they even missd that on Bloomberg. The U4 number is the real good news in that report, not the topline number.
I agree with your analysis, we are not going to 10%.
Christopher, go to this link and read the U.S. BOLS section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#United_States_Bureau_of_Labor_Statistics
Tony C-
I guess what we need to know then is what datapoints are outliers- May June or July? The pessimistic view is that it was May AND July. The optimistic view is that it was just June.
What we don't see on any of these graphs is any type of error bars. Nate mentions that his model is using the average growth of 0.4%, but what he doesn't mention is the standard deviation. What is it... 0.5-0.6%? It makes a huge difference if the growth is only 0.3%! Call me optimistic but with every job-seeking friend I know (granted these are college educated friends) finding jobs no problem, and every other radio ad I hear talking up some community college, I think the labor force will grow at less than 0.4%. Those analysts that don't compare this recession to the 1930s inevitably compare it to 1983 (although usually for political reasons). What was so different in '83 that kept the labor force retracting?
More interesting than using the model to predict trends in '10 (inaccurately) would be to show, using the trends in job loss, how different labor force growth affects the next 3 months of unemployment. Those are the only ones you are really worried about 10% in. What would it mean if next month is 9.3% or 9.5%, and how would it affect our chances at 10% unemployment?
Finally, I understand how something like the GDP can be revised months after initial release, but how can surveys change? And if the trend has been to decrease the jobs lost for each of the last few months, what does that portend for the July numbers?
@Nate: Did you put money down at Intrade prior to posting this column? What's your personal policy about laying bets on things you write about?
Nate, your discussion of numerator and denominator is wrong. If the numerator declined (percentagewise) less than the denominator, the metric would have risen. What happened is the denominator got bigger as the numerator got bigger as well (but percentagewise less than the denominator).
@Paul -- I have the same feeling of worry about (my) being too optimistic. I do hope that some of the measures in place will kick in, including realized tax credits and so forth in early 2010. In the meantime, how do I manage my own investments?
I have no hope at all that the GOP will begin to compromise ("talk like adults," in your phrase). Their 2010 and 2012 strategy is fully committed, it seems to me, as a complete hold-out based on a bet that the economy will continue to be so bad that Obama and the Democrats in Congress will take the blame.
And they're doing their best not only to obstruct Obama and the Dems from any major "victories" prior to the election but also to avoid being sucked into a compromise that would deprive them of an "I told you so" campaign opportunity or being seen as complicit in any continued bad times.
In other words, to use a poker analogy, the GOP went all in on the "bad economy-socialism" claim and now we're waiting to see the remaining cards.
Anthony, read something before you post:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/fp/Headline+numbers+sugar+coat+loss+reality/1872339/story.html
This negative spin, of course, ignores U4. Why did U4 drop? One intriguing and completely missed idea is that it represents immigrants returning home.
"I have no hope at all that the GOP will begin to compromise ("talk like adults," in your phrase). Their 2010 and 2012 strategy is fully committed, it seems to me, as a complete hold-out based on a bet that the economy will continue to be so bad that Obama and the Democrats in Congress will take the blame."
To be sure, I've written off the GOP as a majority party up to and including 2016. I'm more worried about whether the big tent of the Democrats is going to be the only tent for that full period, or if we will see the GOP splinter at some point because frankly they just cannot universally stand against Obama every time if has a successful stimulus, foreign policy, and (yet to be determined) health care reform. People side with winners, and sooner or later the corporate money is going to go to people who have a voice in the debate instead of the guys screaming at closed doors. We'll see how much these congress people like their party at the expense of future elections.
Juris wrote:
"In other words, to use a poker analogy, the GOP went all in on the "bad economy-socialism" claim and now we're waiting to see the remaining cards."
I like that analogy a lot.
We also have to consider the Republican primaries. The same screaming, "energised" base will be showing up in the primary campaigns, which will force all candidates to move toward the fringe in varying degrees. The Party leadership, more especially state Party leadership, seems to be behind the curve and reacting to the "energised" base rather than leading it.
A slate of Bachmann/Tancredo clones will be unappealing, in spite of any drop in the Administration's popularity. And those Republicans who advocate moderation could very well find themselves in the worst position.
Either the primaries will be run with an iron fist and disillusion the wingnuts, or they will go full froth and produce un-electable candidates.
This is somewhat of a technical point, but a big part of this month's drop in labor force participation came from teenagers. This makes sense in light of the fact that a weak job market likely means many students choose not to bother looking for summer jobs. If this interpretation is correct, then the labor force numbers will rebound sharply in September. This arises from the seasonal adjustment process. In essence, the seasonal adjustment factors are looking for an influx of people into the labor market during the summer. If these people are scared away from the job market, this will show up as a seasonally adjusted decline in the labor force, which will reverse in September when these workers are expected to leave the labor force again.
I would say that even if job losses were to stop right away, the unemployment rate will likely jump to 9.7% or so in September. This leaves little margin of error for Nate's call, which I think is too optimistic.
@uberfrosh:
Well, we don't know what the outliers are; because they are the points furthest afield of reality and we don't know what the true numbers are!
The curve looks parabolic, but could easily be (as Nate illustrates) more sine wave; e.g. the stimulus reset a declining trend to a higher point but now it is going to start declining again.
As to your second question, "how can polls change," there are two ways: There is inherent error in the poll of unknown magnitude; and people change their minds.
I say of unknown magnitude because the model for the poll is a normal distribution and there is clear reason to believe this is not a normal distribution; in fact Nate's graph illustrates that. Some event occurred in June or July of 08 (or even Jan08) that perturbed the system, and we are working that out still. To assume a simplistic linear or parabolic or sine wave behavior as a model is simply wishful thinking; and basing a model connected to other variables (as Nate has done) is also wishful thinking, it assumes the historical relationship between those statistics will hold, unchanged, in the face of whatever externality has severely perturbed the system in Jun/Jul-08.
The only valid statistical approach to this is non-parametric; i.e. not based on any mathematical description of the curve. That is done by taking previous large perturbations and seeing if the pattern of recovery, month-by-month, shows any correlations. Then you might be able to provide numerical characterizations of the pattern; for example, that there is a relationship between the rapidity of job loss onset and the duration of the recovery, or that the peak of the job losses typically occurs in the fourth month, and so on.
In short you need to understand the pattern of these perturbations before you start applying linear models and claiming any kind of validity.
Juris said
'In other words, to use a poker analogy, the GOP went all in on the "bad economy-socialism" claim and now we're waiting to see the remaining cards.'
-------------------------------
This is an interesting analogy. I Would suggest that what they have done is go all in on a hand when they can only see the cards in their hand. Its gut instinct calling, they can see that they have maybe a couple of clubs in their hand say (the deficit and the socialism charge) but who knows what is going to be turned over on the table? I wouldn't be prepared to say they have no chance if the economy picks up, (ha ha maybe that would be like the dealing turning over a ace of another suit) but I'd be very cautious of getting over confident just based on a recovering economy.
Personally I think healthcare is like an ace in the Democratic Party's hand. But that has to be played right. I think the economy is probably in this analogy (which I may be stretching to its limit) more a card still to be seen.
But from my (albeit fairly one sided) point of view, its hard to see from this distance what advantages the GOP are going to have for a while. Something bad in Iraq? I dunno I kind of think that is always going to be seen as Bush's war. Afghanistan? I am not sure how that would play. Do the GOP really want to make a fuss about how Obama hasn't cleaned up the mess he was left? I think the most likely game changing factor right now would be the economy. But I think any signs of optimism help the Democratic Party in the end.
I can't see Boehner coming in with something as eye catching or comprehensive as Gingrich's Contract with America (and yes I know there is debate about how decisive the contract was in 1994) and I can't see the GOP right now having the confidence to come up with something that comprehensive.
Nate:
A few observations:
1) No one really knows how this recession will play out because we have no prior American examples of a recession caused by the bursting of a housing bubble. The only similar foreign example is Japan - who like the Obama Administration increased government spending rather than dealing with the underlying bank asset problem. The result was a lost decade of stagnant economic activity for Japan. I fear we are in for much of the same.
2) Nothing has been done to deal with the original underlying problems. The toxic assets remain and the banks have substantially slowed lending. Without credit, the economy cannot expand rapidly.
3) Government actions will make things worse. We are looking at a tsunami of debt sucking well over a Trillion dollars per year out of an already tight credit market with a tax increase in the near future, slowing down growth even more. Heaven help us if the massive cap and tax is passed on top of all of this. We will immediately slide back into recession.
4) The line on your chart should probably be going sideways starting in May. The July unemployment figures are about the same as May's with a bump in between in June.
5) If we are indeed going sideways with a roughly quarter million jobs lost per month, we are actually 350,000 from break even because we need 150,000 new jobs per month just to meet the needs of new entrants.
6) The manufacturing jobs that were lost are not coming back. Government motors (Gm and Chrysler) have no chance of bouncing back anytime soon because they are still saddled with above market union labor costs and are being compelled to build unmarketable small and electric cars that do not turn a profit.
7) The economic recovery is going to be very uneven and limited to certain regions. The mountain west, Texas and most of the South can look forward to growth now or in the near future. There are no immediate prospects of recovery for CA, much of the midwest and NE and Florida.
"Bart DePalma said...
Nate:
A few observations:
1) No one really knows how this recession will play out because we have no prior American examples of a recession caused by the bursting of a housing bubble.
True.
2) Nothing has been done to deal with the original underlying problems.
See your #3 dilemma.
3) Government actions will make things worse.
According to you, the Govn't should not have dealt with #2 because it would make things worse.
4) The line on your chart should probably be going sideways starting in May.
Why? Because it fits your next theory based on feeling?
5) If we are indeed going sideways with a roughly quarter million jobs lost per month, we are actually 350,000 from break even because we need 150,000 new jobs per month just to meet the needs of new entrants.
This was based off your inability to trend.
6) The manufacturing jobs that were lost are not coming back.
Your #1 dilemma make this assumption impossible.
7) The economic recovery is going to be very uneven and limited to certain regions. The mountain west, Texas and most of the South can look forward to growth now or in the near future. There are no immediate prospects of recovery for CA, much of the midwest and NE and Florida."
Based off of?
Did anyone else have to disable Javascript temporarily to view this article? It pegs the CPU for me (pretty impressive for a quad-core machine) with Firefox 3. Other 538 articles are fine.
Bart De Palma said…
“The line on your chart should probably be going sideways starting in May. The July unemployment figures are about the same as May's with a bump in between in June.”
Only a GOOPer could look at that chart, which shows a dramatic turnaround in the job situation, and come up with that fatuous remark.
If anyone here is in desperate need of reading abject idiocy it’s not hard to find Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann quotes. No need to add to the manure pile.
liberal_defender_of_freedom said...
BD: 2) Nothing has been done to deal with the original underlying problems.
See your #3 dilemma.
BD: 3) Government actions will make things worse.
According to you, the Govn't should not have dealt with #2 because it would make things worse.
I never posted anything of the kind. I supported the original TARP on the promise that it would be used to buy, sort out and resell the toxic assets. The Bush folks royally screwed the pooch by demanding to buy the assets for far below market value and then bragging the government would make a profit on the deal. The banks naturally told Treasury to pound sand. Then Treasury decided to act like a bunch of gangsters and semi nationalized the banks.
Obama's treasury has done nothing to improve the state of affairs, satisfying itself with setting executive salaries and bailing out deadbeat home mortgage borrowers.
BD: 4) The line on your chart should probably be going sideways starting in May.
Why? Because it fits your next theory based on feeling?
Look at the results for May through July. They are going sideways.
BD: 7) The economic recovery is going to be very uneven and limited to certain regions. The mountain west, Texas and most of the South can look forward to growth now or in the near future. There are no immediate prospects of recovery for CA, much of the midwest and NE and Florida."
Based off of?
The mountain west, Texas and most of the South missed much of the housing bubble, have fundamentally healthy economies and governments that are not raising taxes.
The midwest has been in long term decline and the nationalization of GM and Chrysler into wards of the state was the final nail.
CA has the worst of all worlds - an enormous housing crash and a high tax, high regulation government. They are in for a long bad spell.
The NE is a mixed bag. They are a mix of business unfriendly and neutral governments with patchwork housing crashes.
Florida has a decent government, but had one of the worst housing crashes.
With respect to toxic assets retarding lending, one thing the Congress did earlier this year was change the mark-to-market accounting rules, which makes those toxic assets much less of a drag. At the same time, if the housing situation does begin to reverse, many of those assets won't be as toxic as they have appeared to be during the last two years.
BTW/ the change in accounting was mainly to appease the banks and the conservatives. Some people within the Obama admin opposed the change.
1) No one really knows how this recession will play out because we have no prior American examples...
The manufacturing jobs that were lost are not coming back...
Government actions will make things worse...
Heaven help us if the massive cap and tax is passed on top of all of this. We will immediately slide back into recession...
The economic recovery is going to be very uneven and limited to certain regions.
Mmm. No one really knows how this recession will play out... except you, of course.
I think NYC Economist hit the nail on the head. Seasonal adjustment factors are muddying up the waters right now because things are so unusual. (Another example is that the average manufacturing workweek was up in July solely because the auto industry usually shuts down in July to changeover for the new model year. But the auto industry has recently ramped up production after shutting down earlier this year.) Were it not for the large number of students who elected not to look for work this summer the unemployment rate would have risen. This was a one time blip.
It is difficult to make predictions about this recession primarily becuase of one thing: we are in a liquidity trap (for the first time since the Great Depression). Glenn Rudebusch of the FRBSF has calculated what the federal funds rate should be based on a Taylor Rule and using FOMC predictions. He found that the fed funds rate should be -5% right now and that it should not become positive at least through the end of 2010 and probably through the end of 2011 just following the trends and given that the FOMC's predictions were overly optimistic:
http://www.frbsf.org/publications
/economics/letter/2009/
el2009-17.html
What this means is that monetary policy, normally the driving force on aggregate demand is more or less impotent for the next few years. There is a caveat of course and that is quanitative easing. Jan Hatzius of Goldman Sachs has calculated that each $1 to $1.6 trillion in quantitative easing is equivalent to a 1% drop in the federal funds rate. The Fed has expanded its balance sheet by about $1.3 trillion so this only adjusts the fed funds rate by about 1%.
So where does this leave the economy? The economy is now highly dependent on fiscal stimulus for the next couple of years. The current stimulus is having an effect. Christina Romer pointed out several private forecasting firms estimate that it added 2-3% to GDP growth at an annual rate in the second quarter:
http://blog.prospect.org/blog
/weblog/DCEconClubprint.pdf
But there are those that believe that the stimulus was too small to lift us out of the liquidity trap. Thus unemployment will stabilize for a time and then continue to rise as the stimulus peters out.
I predict that the unemployment rate will exceed 10% by sometime in the fourth quarter and stay above that level until a third stimulus is approved. For the names of emminent economists in favor of a third stimulus see the following:
http://www.cepr.net/index.php
/press-releases/interactive
-press-releases/economists-
who-make-the-third-stimulus-
honor-roll/
Persuter:
I have no idea how this recession will turn out nor did I make any predications. However, we do know how segments of the economy are likely to react to various conditions.
Mark A. Sadowski said...
So where does this leave the economy? The economy is now highly dependent on fiscal stimulus for the next couple of years. The current stimulus is having an effect. Christina Romer pointed out several private forecasting firms estimate that it added 2-3% to GDP growth at an annual rate in the second quarter...
Before she became an Administration flack, Romer's own academic research found that government stimulus has no discernible effect on economic growth. Since joining the Administration, Romer cherry picks private studies by firms that assume that increased government spending increases economic growth. Indeed, Romer was relying upon these same econometric firms as the basis for her now widely ridiculed January 2009 white paper claiming that stimulus would cap unemployment at 7.9%.
A few articles on the mark-to-market change. Actually the change was made by the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) upon urging by Congress. Arguably, coming when it did (April 1), it gave a significant boost to the bottom lines of banks and has fed the market recovery in financial stocks since then.
From Forbes.
From Slate
From Reuters.
From MarketWatch.
@ Zahlman;
Happened to me too. I had to x out of the page and try again. Seems to be working fine now though *shrugs*
On topic:
What are the possibilities that May and July are the outliers, rather than June? It seems to me that June's numbers are more broadly in-line with the numbers fro the first quarter of the year. Hmm, that brings up a question: can a "double-outlier' actually be an outlier? Or is it a pattern? Just noise?
Nate, I think your prediction is too optimistic. I'm fully aware, though, that you didn't intend for this to be a rigorous statistical model. And I hope to hell you're right!
Long-time reader, first-time commentator:
My contention is "how do we measure," and so I dismiss your premiss outright by stating Unemployment is technically already above 10% (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data).
My book (shameless plug) about how we measure Economics: http://www.scribd.com/doc/15624687/Metaeconomics2009KEL
Thanks Nate!
@Bart DePalma,
Have you actually read the paper you linked to? The Romers concluded that:
"Our estimates also indicate that on several occasions expansionary [fiscal] policies have contributed substantially to above-normal growth outside of recoveries."
The paper was critical of fiscal policy in one main respect. In most recessions it fails to go into effect before monetary policy has a chance to turn things around. That is why monetary policy is almost always the preferred discretionary macroeconomic policy tool. Since we are in a liquidity trap (zero short term rates and yet still declining output) monetary policy is not even an option this time.
As for the white paper the only mistake Romer and Bernstein made was un underestimating the severity of the recession (the white paper was citicized by Krugman, DeLong, Thoma, Chinn, Zandi and many other economists for this very reason in January). The problem was with the baseline prediction, not the effect of the stimulus. The only people who fail to understand this distinction (or admit this) are RBC/Neo-Classicists, Austrians, glibertarians and various assorted wingnuts.
@Mark: DiPalma is retreading the knock that the GOP put on the Romer paper back when her nomination was being criticized and held up.
DiPalma doesn't want to read the paper (assuming he could even understand it). He only wants to read the GOP talking points based on the old canard.
Anthony: Nate's statement is correct, since he describes the employment rate, *NOT* the unemployment rate.
Mark:
Romer's research could not quantify any measurable effect of expanded government spending on economic growth. This is because government spending is counted is part of GDP, but no statistics are taken for lost opportunity costs of taxing or borrowing that government spending from the private capital pool. Thus, the data is not present to easily quantify such costs. Romer's conclusion is merely an article of faith.
Tellingly, instead of relying upon her own research in this area, Romer's white paper relies upon wild ass guesses by cherry picked econometrics firms to quantify the effects of the Obama stimulus. The wild ass guesses were deomnstrably way off the mark.
The entire concept of government stimulus is contrary to history and common sense. If government spending created more economic growth than leaving the taxed/borrowed capital to be invested in the private economy, then communism would be the norm and capitalism would have been left on the ash heap of history. Hoover, FDR and Japan all tried government stimulus to no effect. Thus, the entire idea of government economic stimulus is a non starter.
@Bart: your opinion is not supported by any facts.
Here's an alternative by a credible source, which you can dispute if you wish but hopefully by facts and not an obfuscation of history
Nate -
That is some rose-colored analysis you have engaged in.
If you model this out, assuming reasonable labor force dynamics hold out, here is what would happen if we did not lose A SINGLE ADDITIONAL NET JOB through December.
Unemployment: 10.3%
Here is why.
Last month the labor force participation rate fell dramatically. This is now to the point that the labor force is exactly the same size it was a year ago.
July 2008: 154,506,000
July 2009: 154,504,000
No growth.
Compare this to 2001-2002:
2001: 143,734,000
2002: 144,863,000
Growth of 1.1M
Last month was an abnormality due to seasonal adjustment factors that have ZERO precedent in this environment.
The labor force generally grows about 100K+ per month. Last month it declined by 400K.
Once a recovery appears imminent, you can bet that many of these individuals will start looking for work again.
Nate, your comparison with past recessions is suspect given that this is now the longest postwar recession, with little precedent.
The reason that the labor force shrank so much is due to the fact that people are losing their extended unemployment benefits, thus they have no reason to say they are looking for work. This has never happened before.
Never has it been the case that 400,000+ people exhausted extended unemployment benefits in a single month. It just happened for the first time.
Right now labor force participation is at 65.5% and it was 66.1% a year ago.
If it rebounds to 66%, and you add the 600,000 to the labor force out of sheer population growth you will get 10.3% unemployment even if we do not lose another net job.
Alternatively, if we lose another 500,000 jobs, which is likely, the unemployment rate will hit 10.7%.
For your rosy 9.7% scenario to play out, 2 unlikely things would have to happen:
1: The labor force participation rate stays at 65.5% for the rest of the year. This is true only if we do not extend unemployment benefits.
2: We do not lose a single additional net job.
If #1 happens, then #2 CANNOT happen. If we allow over half a million people to lose unemployment benefits in the next 90 days, we will start shedding jobs like a Himalayan Cat sheds fur in August.
If the following happens:
1: Labor force participation rebounds on a seasonally adjusted basis gradually back to the trendline of 66.0%.
2. We lose an additional 500,000 net jobs over the course of the year, ending the year with modest job creation
You get an unemployment rate of 10.7%.
This is roughly how it works out...
-100,000 net jobs: 10.3%
-200,000 net jobs: 10.4%
-300,000 net jobs: 10.5%
-400,000 net jobs: 10.6%
-500,000 net jobs: 10.7%
-600,000 net jobs: 10.8%
-700,000 net jobs: 10.9%
Nate, to stay under 10%, you need several magical things to happen, which are, by nature, mutually exclusive.
Here is the problem. If we do not start extending unemployment benefits again, the economy will recover even more slowly.
If we do, then suddenly the labor force participation rate will jump by 500,000 workers overnight so they can claim benefits.
So Obama is damned if he does and damned if he does not.
Here is my prediction. Unemployment benefits will be extended yet again. This will boost the labor force participation rate back up to 66%.
We will lose another 500,000 net jobs from now until December.
Based on that, unemployment will crest at 10.7%.
I will never say never. If magical things happen, you will be correct.
I do not believe in magic.
"Minimum wages and rises in the such do not cause unemployment. "
Just about every economist disagrees with this point of view.
Every serious study shows that this does, in fact, happen.
Even liberal economists admit this is the case. Their counter-argument is that at least some will do better, while the social safety net will help the rest retrain for higher wage work.
The notion that higher minimum wages do not increase unemployment is outlandish in comparison with 95% of the econometric studies on the topic.
@Bart:
It is not contrary to my common sense, or that of millions of other people, so it is only contrary to what you choose to call "common sense," and since the majority of people believe that government stimulus can help, you are just lying about your sense being "common."
In fact, common sense should tell you that government spending is spending like any other; and spending can indeed create economic growth: Government can buy products and services like any other consumer and thus both create and save jobs; that is "economic growth."
Further, they can do this when the private sector refuses to. Further, as the common person is discovering, the private sector actually seldom creates jobs because the majority of operating businesses (especially large businesses) have completed their growth phase and are no longer trying to add capacity, machines, factories or anything else. The vast majority of stuff we buy is from mature businesses, not startups.
The majority of tax cuts go into the pockets of the wealthy and the majority of that money does not create any job whatsoever; it is used to by stock in mature companies that pay dividends; i.e. it is used to buy a share of an existing profit stream generated by existing jobs. The portion invested in growth companies is typically invested overseas in emerging markets because there are proven products and business models that are easily understood and not likely to fail.
Government spending on infrastructure, maintenance and new research are the obvious kinds of spending that really create jobs and put people to work; because they are then actually creating new products (like bridges and roads) and new technologies. THAT is where real economic growth comes from.
Common sense should tell you so.
This post below is so on the money...glad another economist is here to preach sensibility.
Most teenagers stopped looking for work halfway through the summer (July) because who gets a summer job for 4-6 weeks? If you did not get one in May, or June, you gave up in July.
Also, we are seek 100-200,000 workers lose extended benefits every month. They have no reason to SAY they are looking for work if they are not.
This is all a mirage in the seasonal adjustments. So is the
-274,000 figure for July.
I place more faith on the ADP payrolls data showing -371,000 job loss figure because their data is less sensitive to seasonal adjustments.
Using trended historical adjustments in this unprecendented environment is a fallacy.
The unadjusted data still looks bad.
--------------------------------
NYC Economist said...
This is somewhat of a technical point, but a big part of this month's drop in labor force participation came from teenagers. This makes sense in light of the fact that a weak job market likely means many students choose not to bother looking for summer jobs. If this interpretation is correct, then the labor force numbers will rebound sharply in September. This arises from the seasonal adjustment process. In essence, the seasonal adjustment factors are looking for an influx of people into the labor market during the summer. If these people are scared away from the job market, this will show up as a seasonally adjusted decline in the labor force, which will reverse in September when these workers are expected to leave the labor force again.
I would say that even if job losses were to stop right away, the unemployment rate will likely jump to 9.7% or so in September. This leaves little margin of error for Nate's call, which I think is too optimistic.
Juris:
Krugman has no background at all and has performed no research on the effect of government spending or tax cuts on the economy. In contrast, Romer performed extensive research on these effects and cannot quantify any effect for government spending.
Contrary to his peer reviewed work, Krugman's partisan rants on the NYT op-ed page are the subject of frequent ridicule. The man is utterly fearless in making ideological claims for which he has no evidence. The latest laugh at Krugman's expense was when he was so certain that Canadians loved the socialized health care that he polled an audience of Canadians at a health care talk only to discover nearly all of them thought their health care sucked.
BD: 2) Nothing has been done to deal with the original underlying problems.
See your #3 dilemma.
BD: 3) Government actions will make things worse.
According to you, the Govn't should not have dealt with #2 because it would make things worse.
I never posted anything of the kind.
Yes, you did, you are too dishonest to admit it. If government actions make things worse the last thing you would want is more government regulation.
You also claim that know one know how it will play out and then shortly after claim you know how it will.
You right wingers are expert in one thing: talking out of both sides of your ass.
How many Canadians would give up their system for ours? Not many would be that studid. Just because the Canadian system is not perfect does not mean it is not better then the system that the United Corporate States of America have.
I would like to see a link to the poll that says "nearly all" Canadians think their system sucks.
@Bart: as I suspected, you would not respond with any facts to buttrsss your opinions
The "non-seasonally adjusted" unemployment rate is...9.7%.
SAME AS JUNE
The "non-seasonally adjusted" labor participation rate is...66.2%.
SAME AS JUNE
The "non-seasonally adjusted" labor force is...156,255,000.
In June it was 155,921,000.
It was actually higher by 334,000 workers.
The seasonal adjustments subtracted 1.75 million workers from the labor force!
I guarantee you that they did not disappear for good.
They will be seasonally adjusted back in starting this month.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf
http://www.bls.gov/cps/tables.htm#nempstat_m
Nate, do you want to take a mulligan on this while you can?
@Brian DePalma,
Romer did not quantify the multiplier in that particular paper because of the large errors she found. But it was unmistakably large and positive. Her most recent paper, using new methods, suggests that the fiscal multiplier is much larger than previously believed (perhaps 3).
Romer relied on Mark Zandi's estimates of fiscal multipliers because he has done more research than most on differentiating the effects of different types of fiscal stimuli. His multipliers are very similar to the CBO's estimates which are derived from the vast body of research literature. The goal was design a stimulus with maximum effect throughout the time frame of its implementation.
In any case there is a substantial amount of research literature on the effectiveness of fiscal policy. Here is a good summary of the literature by the IMF (about 200 papers are featured):
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2002/wp02208.pdf
Here is what it says about the theoretical research:
"This literature suggests that fiscal multipliers will tend to be positive and possibly quite large when:
There is excess capacity, the economy is either closed or it is open and the exchange rate is fixed, and households have limited time horizons or are liquidity constrained.
There is an accompanying monetary expansion with limited inflationary consequences."
I would argue that, while we do not satisfy all of the assumptions, we do have excess capacity, liquidity constrained households, and an accompanying monetary expansion.
Here is what it says about the empirical research:
"Estimates of fiscal multipliers are overwhelmingly positive but small. Short term multipliers average around half for taxes and one for spending, with only modest variation across countries and models (albeit some outliers)."
But here is the real kicker:
"There is little evidence of direct crowding out or crowding out through interest rates and the exchange rate. Nor does full Ricardian equivalence or significant partial Ricardian offset get much support from the evidence."
This is extremely important because this is a key assumption of Neo-Classical models (and it is frequently parroted by Austrians, libertarians etc.), and yet it is not supported by the vast body of empirical literature.
And here's a paper that's about to hit the presses, "When is the Government Spending Multiplier Large?" by Lawrence Christiano, Martin Eichenbaum, and Sergio Rebelo. It's particularily relevant:
"In this paper we argue that the government spending multiplier can be very large when the zero bound on nominal interest rates is binding. We obtain this conclusion in a variety of models where the government spending multiplier is quite modest when the zero bound is not binding."
"What our analysis does indicate is that measures designed to increase aggregate demand are particularly powerful when the zero bound binds."
http://faculty.wcas.northwestern
.edu/~yona/research/
Multiplier-version12.pdf
And I don't have to tell you that the federal funds rate is currently zero.
@MPM: I don't think Nate plays golf. He does make predictions, and I suspect he'll stand by this one and let the numbers play out over the next few months.
You've listed a bunch of stuff but this doesn't seem like an argument so much as a dump.
The economy is controlled more by emotion then rational thought. There is no "unseen hand", the economy is man-made. Remember that remark from Greenspan about "irrational exuberance"? The dot com boom? If people and companies think things will improve and act accordingly, they will. If people think the economy is going to tank, and act accordingly. Market prices are wild guesses.
The validity of the stock market is perfectly summed up here!
Of course, real problems like the derivative trading are more then psychological. But that just shows that the free market is a failure and tight regulations are necessary to reign in the greedy idiots. Funny how so many financial scandals happen after a round or two of deregulation, which is almost always at or near the end of Republican rule.
A few off-topic questions:
I would really like to know why certain people feel comfortable having people who have a direct interest in denying and rationing your health care? The only reason health care insurance companies exist is to make money, they only way they seem to know how to do it is to deny or restrict as many claims as they can get away with without getting sued into oblivion.
If health care costs are a significant cost to business, why are the right wingers claiming that making it cheaper and having an alternative would cause job loss?
Other then those that are being paid by the giant health care companies, why is it that only the low education fringe is out there frothing at the mouth parroting lies by Limbaugh, Bachmann, and Palin? Have you seen these astroturfers? They look like extras from Deliverance or Redneck Zombies.
I have no idea how this recession will turn out nor did I make any predications. However, we do know how segments of the economy are likely to react to various conditions.
lol... "The difference between a prediction and what I say is that what I say is right."
Romer's research could not quantify any measurable effect of expanded government spending on economic growth.
In the abstract of the paper it says "on several occasions expansionary policies have contributed substantially to above-normal growth outside of recoveries". Can you be a little more specific as to exactly how you determined that Romer's assertion is an "article of faith"?
Economic forecasting is pretty much voodoo. I read a funny article the other day where scientists pitted a trained bird against some stock traders: the bird did better.
That being said, I'd trust Prof. Silver's analysis any day. Never bet against the house at 538.
midpointman said
' "Minimum wages and rises in the such do not cause unemployment. "
Just about every economist disagrees with this point of view.'
------------------------------
http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/archive/2007/01/08/unemployment-and-the-minimum-wage
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/briefingpapers_bp150/
as just two bits of evidence.
And much as I hate to cite wiki, it gives a good overview of the debate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage
As I understand it there really isn't much evidence that a minimum wage CAUSES increased unemployment or decreased employment. In fact the Labour Government in the UK introduced a minimum wage in 1998, and unemployment continued to drop. I think either way, underlying trends in the economy are more important than the wage level. (which is sort of my larger point, that actually business can cope with things that are thrown at them and adapt).
If health care costs are a significant cost to business, why are the right wingers claiming that making it cheaper and having an alternative would cause job loss?
Yeah, I don't get it either. I own a small business and paying for my own health care sucks. The health care bill will absolutely save me and my company money.
And I love the part where Republicans are freaking out with the new plan because insurers would only be allowed to charge twice as much for old people as for young - in most employer group health insurance, everyone is covered at the same rate!
Mark A. Sadowski said...
@Brian DePalma: Romer did not quantify the multiplier in that particular paper because of the large errors she found. But it was unmistakably large and positive. Her most recent paper, using new methods, suggests that the fiscal multiplier is much larger than previously believed (perhaps 3).
LMMFAO! Why not a multiplier of 4 or 5?
Think about her claims for a second with something more that wide eyed and credulous acceptance.
Romer is now claiming that for every 1% GDP spent by the government, the economy will expand by 3%. In contrast, I assume Romer is still sticking with her assumption that allowing the citizenry to keep 1% of GDP in tax cuts will only result in 0.9% GDO growth. Thus, under Romer's assumptions, government is over three times more efficient at creating economic growth than the rest of us.
Let us consider the real world ramifications of these assumptions:
The USSR which spent 100% of GDP should have had a GDP tripling in size every year and would have passed the US GDP with its benighted low level of government spending in the 1920s shortly after the communist revolution. Instead, their GDP was always a fraction of America's and their people were largely impoverished, if not starving.
Government at all levels already spends about 40% of GDP. If we get a 3 to 1 return on economic growth from government spending, the economy should be growing at a 20% per year clip even if all the rest of us went on a permanent vacation.
Do you see how patently insane these assumptions are?
@Bart:
Do you see how patently insane these assumptions are?
No, because they are not; your "analysis" is patently insane, because you presume that what works on a small scale will automatically work at an extreme; and nobody is claiming that at all.
I can claim that eating less and exercising more will make you healthier, but obviously if you eat absolutely nothing and work out 24 hours a day that will not make you healthier. I can claim that saving some of your income for retirement is a good idea; but that doesn't mean saving every penny you earn is a good idea. I can claim a post-high school education is a good idea, that doesn't mean you should spend your life as a perpetual student.
Government gets more bang for the buck because they actually DO spend the money on products and services that create jobs immediately; like infrastructure. Reducing taxes puts money in the pockets of business owners and investors, and that creates very few jobs because it involves very little additional consumption.
Brian DePalma,
I think the problem is that you are conflating short run with long run growth. No one (to my knowledge) is suggesting that fiscal stimulus is a strategy for increasing long run rates of growth. It is merely a strategy for combatting recessions, and a strategy that is indispensable when the economy falls into the liquidity trap.
@midpointman and markymark,
I could not help but notice your exchange. I recommend the following:
http://press.princeton.edu/
titles/5632.html
It's a good introduction to the recent empirical research on the minimum wage. Thanks to Card and Krueger the conventional wisdom on the minimum wage has changed a lot in the last 20 years.
Tony C. said...
BD: : Do you see how patently insane these assumptions are [?
No, because they are not; your "analysis" is patently insane, because you presume that what works on a small scale will automatically work at an extreme; and nobody is claiming that at all.
OK, what is the point of and the theoretical basis for your diminishing returns? Romer's first paper had no such assumption.
Why is there a point of diminishing returns for government creation of goods and services where there is none for private creation of goods and services?
Government gets more bang for the buck because they actually DO spend the money on products and services that create jobs immediately; like infrastructure. Reducing taxes puts money in the pockets of business owners and investors, and that creates very few jobs because it involves very little additional consumption.
Consumption is not the primary driver of economic growth, investment is.
Mark A. Sadowski said...
I think the problem is that you are conflating short run with long run growth. No one (to my knowledge) is suggesting that fiscal stimulus is a strategy for increasing long run rates of growth. It is merely a strategy for combatting recessions, and a strategy that is indispensable when the economy falls into the liquidity trap.
Romer has no such limitation, but let's see where this takes us.
You appear to be arguing that government spending replaces private lending when the credit market tightens. However, government stimulus is not in the banking business of providing general credit for business to expand. Moreover, Romer assumes that allowing people to keep their own money to boost demand is less than a third as efficient as allowing the government to spend that money for them.
I do not believe that your assumption is shared by the proponents of government "stimulus."
Mark:
You also may want to recall that Romer's earlier academic research proposed that nearly all of the economic growth from government spending occurred after the recession during the following expansion when there obviously was no longer a credit crunch or a lack of demand.
Bart DePalma said...
7) The economic recovery is going to be very uneven and limited to certain regions. The mountain west, Texas and most of the South can look forward to growth now or in the near future. There are no immediate prospects of recovery for CA, much of the midwest and NE and Florida.
and then went on to say, defending his nether regions remark:
The mountain west, Texas and most of the South missed much of the housing bubble, have fundamentally healthy economies and governments that are not raising taxes.
I'm fairly certain that Nevada, Arizona and Idaho would be considered by our very learned Mr. dePalma to be in the Mountain West.
IHS Global Insight sees the following recoveries in certain states:
Arizona - 2014
Nevada - 2013
Idaho - 2012
Doesn't look short-term for those states, does it?
and then our very learned Mr. dePalma stated:
CA has the worst of all worlds - an enormous housing crash and a high tax, high regulation government. They are in for a long bad spell.
IHS Global Insight sees California recovering in 2013, a bit later than Idaho, at approximately the same time as Idaho, and earlier than Arizona.
IHS Global Insight might be wrong, but I don't think ALL their predictions would be THAT wrong.
Well, even a stopped, 12-hour, analog clock is correct twice a day, very learned Mr. dePalma.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Mark A. Sadowski said...
I think NYC Economist hit the nail on the head. Seasonal adjustment factors are muddying up the waters right now because things are so unusual. (Another example is that the average manufacturing workweek was up in July solely because the auto industry usually shuts down in July to changeover for the new model year. But the auto industry has recently ramped up production after shutting down earlier this year.)
Rehiring in the auto industry only ramped up in the final days of July, or the first week of August, mostly as a result of the Cash for Clunkers program.
AND it only affected 20,000 auto assembly line workers.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Bart DePalma,
The reason why nearly all of the research literature finds a positive multiple for fiscal stimulus is for the simple reason that countries only use fiscal stimuli in recessions. And as I mentioned previously the multiplier is much more positive when a country is in a liquidity trap, the most serious of recessions.
Most, but not all, recessions occur because of a negative shock to aggregate demand. The typical policy response in recent years has been to lower the federal funds rate. This can be done quickly without legislation. Fiscal stimulus requires legislation and requires long lead times. The economy usually recovers before its full effects are felt and consequently the monetary authority ends up raising interest rates due to crowding out. Thus fiscal stimulus is usually at least somewhat counterproductive (as the Romer paper you cited states).
We are in a liquidity trap right now with the federal funds rate pinned to zero. Based on the predictions of Glenn Rudebusch this situation is likely to persist for a few years. There will be no crowding out effect until the fed decides to raise the federal funds rate. The only thing driving aggregate demand right now is fiscal policy. That is why fiscal stimulus is not only necessary right now, it is likely to be very effective.
Less abstractly, banks are not lending right now because the risks are too great. Firms are not investing because they already have a great deal of excess capacity. The key to changing this situation is raising aggregate demand. Increased aggregate demand will push firms to capacity increasing their profitability and raising their incentive to invest. With firms being more profitable the risk of lending will decrease. This is a typical pattern in financial crises. The financial sector does not recover until an average of 1.5 years after the economy stops contracting. This finding was summarized in a research paper whose title I unfortunately can't remember at the moment.
Fiscal stimulus is the way out of our current predicament.
You seem to know a lot about statistics, but you don't know anything about stock market valuation, so no one really should care whether you would buy stocks at these prices or not, or whether you think a U or V-shaped recovery is priced in.
Here's an exercise for you. Make an estimate of what the theoretical difference should be between the future cash flows that would arise from a U-shaped vs a V-shaped recovery. Does it explain the S&P bouncing from 672 to 1000? Not even close.
@Bart:
Consumption is not the primary driver of economic growth, investment is.
No, consumption is. What is called an "investment" in today's economy is typically buying a share of an existing income stream, be it stock or bond. When I buy MSFT I buy it from somebody else; typically NOT Microsoft Corporation themselves, so they get no benefit out of me buying their stock. I buy it from somebody because I want to share in the future income stream (either through dividends or increased material value of the company) and the other guy sells it because he already owns that same thing but wants to convert it to immediate cash for whatever reason. Neither of these translate directly into more products produced or services delivered by anybody (except perhaps a broker). Not by Microsoft, not by me, not by the guy I bought the stock from.
The same argument holds for bonds. Bond interest is an income stream I choose to buy that already existed; no more work gets done.
What drives "economic growth" is greater production of goods or services because that demands somebody do some work to produce the good or service, and work by people is the creation of new value.
That is why the unemployment numbers and overall hours worked are important at all; they determine the amount of new value being generated.
As far as the "diminishing returns" argument; I imagined that was obvious. Economists work in the real world, not your fantasy linear world where the benefit of anything must increase linearly. There are diminishing returns on virtually everything in the real world; companies that spend money on marketing do better but we don't have to tell them not to spend 100% of revenue on marketing.
I don't know where diminishing returns kick in, but we can be pretty sure they are probabilistic and not some threshold value, so it is safe to ramp up government spending quarter by quarter, measure the effects, and stop when we reach the point of diminishing returns.
As far as where we get the money to do that; we print it. That causes inflation. Inflation is a flat tax on assets, which makes it progressive: The rich have far more assets than the poor, and we can always raise the minimum wage to protect them further; plus inflation reduces the real value of any debt they carry, making it easier to pay off. And of course, the poor and middle class typically have much more debt than the rich.
Investment does not cause economic growth. Consumption does. The only class of "investment" that DOES cause economic growth is entrepreneurial investment, but even then only because it is consuming services and products and paying rent and hiring employees to instantiate a new business or new expansion. My guess is that about 98% of the dollars the common person thinks of as "invested" is not this special class of entrepreneurial investment.
@Mike in Maryland,
Perhaps I was a little careless in how I phrased that. But my point is essentially correct. The jump in manufacturing hours was mainly due to the seasonal adjustment.
Typically, the auto industry shuts down many of its factories in July to retool for the new model year. This leads to a large drop in hours and employment. Since the data are seasonally adjusted, the Bureau of Labor Statistics corrects for the normal July layoffs so it doesn't appear that the auto industry is going into a slump every July.
This year, there were few, if any, layoffs associated with retooling, since many factories had already been shut. Nonetheless, the seasonal adjustment pushed up reported hours and employment in July for the auto sector. As a result, the seasonally adjusted workweek in the auto sector increased by 1.6 hours in July and added approximately 0.1 hours to the overall average for manufacturing.
The rehiring of workers at the end of the month was indeed minor but it only compounded this effect.
Nate: Your argument is totally unconvincing. Your models assume too much, mostly that this is your grandfather's recession. I know that in your political work, you would never assume that 2008 will be just like 1948, so why do you do that in your economic work?
You assume that this recession will resolve itself like most post-war recessions, with a quick V-shaped recovery. But what if we have another jobless recovery, like we had in 1991 and 2001?
You assume that current trends will continue in a straight line, that the payroll losses will go from 750,000 to 450,000 to 250,000 to zero. But what if job losses stabilize at 100,000 or even 50,000 per month for a year or two? That's the kind of "recovery" we had in 2002. Tell me why we won't have that again.
You assume that July's payroll losses really were significantly lower than June's, even though there are clear indications that seasonal adjustment problems made June's data seem worse and July's seem better. What if you assume, for argument's sake, that adjustment problems made June 75,000 worse and July's 75,000 better? Then you'd have an improvement from 390,000 or so in June to 325,000 or so in July. How does that change your rosy conclusions?
Have you considered that the type of unemployment we have today has few precedents? More than half of the employed have lost their job permanently (in the 1975 recession, that percentage was about 37%). More than 5 million people have been without work for six months. These people aren't going to be rehired at the plant, like they were in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. Who is going to hire them? Home Depot? Countrywide? GM? Starbucks?
This is also the first "service-sector" recession we've had, with more service-sector jobs lost than manufacturing jobs. Is there any reason to think service-sector employment will rebound quickly? Considering that most service-sector firms don't have massive inventory cycles, I can't see any justification for believing the rebound will be quick.
@Me:
I should have said inflation is a flat tax on cash assets (and cash equivalents). Inflation is not a tax on hard assets, like houses, equipment, etc.
Unemployment can be dramatically reduced by means of A Human Investment Tax Credit Program. It aims at it with a rifle instead of a shotgun. See www.aesopinstitute.org for free downloads of the 2009 Program or a short 15 page version.
Other items on that site reflect the potential for breakthrough technologies that will turn future cars into power plants that need no fuel or battery recharge and can pay for themselves over time.
Who will not want to buy such cars?
Once they become available we can look for a huge revival of the auto industry and the economy.
Mark A. Sadowski said (to our very learned Mr. dePalma)...
I think the problem is that you are conflating short run with long run growth.
Another way to look at it - your exhaust pipe on your vehicle develops a hole ahead of the muffler on your way home from work or play on Saturday evening (after all the repair shops are closed), and you need to drive that vehicle on Sunday, and to the repair shop Monday morning. Rather than having to put up with the unmuffled noise of the exhaust (let alone risk getting a ticket for that noise), if you have a soup can, a pair of tin snips and two radiator clamps, you can use the soup can to close the hole until you can get the vehicle to a repair shop and get the exhaust repaired in a couple of days.
Temporary, and definitely not long term, but effective in allowing you to do what you need to do until a permanent fix is made within a couple of days.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
July numbers are also likely to be revised for the worse. From my understanding, the Bureau of Labour Statistics always lowballs the initial publication and then revises it downwards once it's no longer headline news.
@leonsp: you're wrong. The BLS does the best it can. It doesn't lowball. It sometimes ends up revising numbers upwards, and sometimes downwards.
I agree with Nate that we are probably not going to see higher than 10% unemployment in this recession. The June figures probably reflect seasonal adjustment problems of the data plus the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies. The question now is if higher oil prices and the problem with toxic assets will lead to a double dip recession.
I can't claim expertise, or even deductive logic here, but I think it will hit 10%, mostly because of CA.
-The state budget cuts were UGLY. A lot of people who work directly or indirectly for the state will be unemployed.
-The cuts to education are going to toss a bunch of students into the work force. Rather than being "students," they'll now just be "unemployed."
It's just my guess; I wouldn't put much stock in it. It's totally inductive and based on my local experience. But, there it is.
I know that in your political work, you would never assume that 2008 will be just like 1948, so why do you do that in your economic work?
Because he is a partisan hack and radical leftist who is going to twist and spin whatever narrative fits his agenda. He is a liar and a manipulator.
@esong_98:
Well, that is a cryptic post. Certainly nothing has been done to prevent oil prices from rising (other than scaring the Saudis into thinking they might kill the patient) and nothing has really been done about the toxic assets, so if there is a "double dip" recession, why couldn't we hit 10%? or 12%?
Mule Rider said...
I know that in your political work, you would never assume that 2008 will be just like 1948, so why do you do that in your economic work?
Because he is a partisan hack and radical leftist who is going to twist and spin whatever narrative fits his agenda. He is a liar and a manipulator.
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Mule, thanx for sharing!
take care, blessings
btw, partisan hack, twist and spin to fit an agenda, liar, hmm that's you in a nutshell ...
@Tony C: the reason for the "polls" changing in BLS data depends in part on the type of data. Data on total employment -- the labor force -- come from monthly data collections from establishments (institutions and other employers). Data on UNemployment and unemployment rates come from individuals (monthly surveys).
The establishment data are usually updated later because there are incomplete returns from the employers at the time the BLS runs its monthly total/sectoral employment numbers. It subsequently corrects the numbers for the prior two months as more eatablishment data come in from those prior months (e.g., when they turn in their July numbers they may for the firt time report their May and June numbers). Those revisions can have the effect of increasing or decreasing the employment levels both overall and by sector of the economy for those prior months. I suspect there is no systematic tendenty for the corrections to raise or to lower the preiously reported figures for a given month -- I've seen revisions in both directions but haven't done a compilation to know whether one direction predominates.
In the case of individual data used to calculate unemployment rates based on the monthly CPS, I am not aware that there are any revisions after the data are first tabulated. It's these data that determine how many people are "in the labor force" -- employed + looking for work. (Whereas the establishment data determine the number of persons employed according to employers.)
I imagine the estimates of total employed persons, based on the CPS and the establishment data, don't always line up. And of course there is sampling error in both data collections.
@Juris:
Fair enough. The only point I would say people can change their mind is whether or not they are "looking for work." It seems to me like that can cover a lot of ground; from "I'd accept work if it was offered and paid enough" to "I apply for eight minimum wage jobs per day."
Mule Rider said (quoting someone else!)
'I know that in your political work, you would never assume that 2008 will be just like 1948, so why do you do that in your economic work?
Because he is a partisan hack and radical leftist who is going to twist and spin whatever narrative fits his agenda. He is a liar and a manipulator.'
-----------------------------
Actually in all of his statistical work, Nate has used previous behaviour to help predict future behaviour, be it in Baseball or politics. (Remember that Nate's electoral college predictions had a lot to do with the relationship between previous polling data and ptrevious results of elections, as an example.) I'd imagine that 1948 is fairly reasonable date to go back as far as in economic statistics.
Tony C:
I'm very worried that the economy will slip back into recession in 2011. That would be very bad for Obama and we could see President Palin in 2013.
The emir of Saudi Arabia probably doesn't remember the effects of the oil embargo of 1973 and the oil crisis of the early eighties, and thus won't believe that 200 dollars a barrel oil would hurt the world economy. Obama needs to work on alternative fuels. In addition, he needs to do something about the toxic assets. However, I do believe that the NBER will eventually declare that the present recession ended as early as June 1st. Next year, when the budget stimulus goes into full gear, I expect the economy to grow better than expected.
@Nate
You could be correct in your "prediction" (is that even what you are doing? Because you have so many caveats and self-deprecating comments about your "silly little model) that Unemployment won't hit 10%. But then again even a blind chicken gets a kernel of corn.
But your analysis is just a bunch of hocus pocus. It's neither based in economic theory (such as it is) nor in statistical theory.
There is a whole genre of flim-flam man that uses "statistics" and "models" like this but then also hedges the way you do. If you're right your a genius/savant; if you're wrong well you hedged enough. Most of the time these flim-flam guys (who are smart enoguh) are just flim-flamming themselves (and sometimes their employers) at the race track or casino or in online poker sites or using software to "back test" (ha!) stock/equity trades or assessing the risk of credit default swaps, derivatives and mortgage back securities (ha! ha!).
Sometimes what is required is just saying "I don't know". But once you go public you need to be intellectually rigorous. ANd you weren't here.
@ Juris -
I did not see any meaningful response in your reply.
If you actually believe that seasonal adjustments are not important, and that the affect of exhausted unemployment benefits are not real, please explain.
Explain the following:
1. Why did the seasonally adjusted data say that the workforce declined by 422,000 when the non-adjusted data shows that it actually increased by 334,000?
2. Explain why the non-adjusted data shows a true workforce size of 156,255,000 when the adjusted data shows it at 154,504,000. Explain what will happen when those 1,750,000 workers suddenly reappear in the data.
More importantly, explain the validity of seasonal adjustment factors that are based upon a NORMAL summer hiring period in a NORMAL year being applied to a job market where many of these jobs were never filled due to lack of demand.
Given that this is an ABNORMAL year you can bet with certainty that NORMAL adjustment factors will be considerably off.
Right now, today, the ACTUAL non-adjusted unemployment rate is 9.7%.
For Nate to be correct, we need the economy to start producing net jobs THIS MONTH, otherwise he will be swamped by the adjustment factors alone.
Nate made a fatal error, which was to assume that NORMAL seasonal adjustments would be valid during ABNORMAL times.
There was no real summer hiring season, which is why the June numbers were probably overstated, and the July numbers understated.
In times like these, it is best to toss out seasonal factors and look at the true underlying inertia in the job market.
It is absolutely true that the job losses are subsiding, but that will not keep unemployment under 10%.
For Nate to be correct, the economy will have to produce somewhere around 800,000 NET new jobs.
That simply is unlikely.
All...
79% of surveyed economists believe that minimum wage increases raise unemployment among young and low-skilled workers.
This is the consensus. I work with facts and data, not emotions.
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/charts/10_things_economists_believe-44.html
10 Things Economists Believe
Where they agree
Rent control limits quantity/quality of housing 93 %
Tariffs and quotas reduce economic welfare 93 %
The United States should not restrict employers from outsourcing work to foreign countries. 90 %
Floating exchange rates are effective international monetary policy 90 %
The United States should eliminate agricultural subsidies 85 %
The gap between Social Security funds and expenditures will become unsustainably large within the next fifty years if current policies remain unchanged 85 %
Large federal deficits adversely affect the economy 83 %
Welfare should be administered as a negative income tax 79 %
A minimum wage increases unemployment among young and unskilled workers 79 %
Taxes and permits are a better way to control pollution than pollution ceilings 78 %
The citation for the above can be found here:
Robert Whaples surveys PhD members of the American Economic Association and finds substantial agreement on a wide range of policy issues.
http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol3/iss9/art1/
Here is the PDF download:
http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=0&article=1156&context=ev&type=additional
Facts and data, people.
Facts and data, people.
You would hope that to be the case, MPM; however, at 538.com and its related ilk (DailyKos, HuffPo, etc.), those "facts" must only support a liberal view of the world or else they must be garbage.
Mike in Maryland said...
The mountain west, Texas and most of the South missed much of the housing bubble, have fundamentally healthy economies and governments that are not raising taxes.
I'm fairly certain that Nevada, Arizona and Idaho would be considered by our very learned Mr. dePalma to be in the Mountain West.
Only Idaho would fall under that category. Nevada and Arizona are not mountain west states and both are joined at the hip economically with CA.
IHS Global Insight sees the following recoveries in certain states:
Arizona - 2014
Nevada - 2013
Idaho - 2012
Got a link for this claim? As of a couple months ago, IHS Global Insight had Idaho returning to economic growth in 4Q 2009 and employment growth in 2Q 2010. That is about 1Q behind CO and WY.
http://dfm.idaho.gov/Publications/EAB/Outlook/IO2009/outlookapril2009.pdf
...and then our very learned Mr. dePalma stated:
CA has the worst of all worlds - an enormous housing crash and a high tax, high regulation government. They are in for a long bad spell.
IHS Global Insight sees California recovering in 2013...
Thanks for the confirmation of my point. That would put CA into a history making 5 year recession. I wonder if CA stays blue in 2012?
@MidPointMan:
95% of people believe in God, that doesn't make one exist. You admonish us to stick to facts and data and then trot out some survey of beliefs. I don't care what economists believe, I care what economists can prove, even empirically, and thus far I see scant evidence that the majority of economists are practicing anything remotely close to science. In fact this is the whole problem with economics, it is based on faulty premises (like homo economus and rational decision making) that have been proven wrong by one researcher after another, and yet they persist in their assertions.
In my view that reduces economics to little more than a religion that insists the world is governed by supply and demand because "geez louis wouldn't that make sense?"
Well people used to think it made sense for the world to be flat and for different weight cannonballs to fall at different speeds, but that wasn't true either.
Don't insist on "facts" and then quote what economists believe; beliefs are not facts and economists have given us plenty of reasons to distrust their beliefs. Aren't they the ones that "believe" in efficient markets despite the plethora of ten and twenty sigma events we can point at? These are events that, according to economists, should occur once in a million or trillion years, and we can point to dozens of them. Yet they continue to publish garbage that means less than nothing.
Hey does anybody know how to shut down a website? I figure all these dumbasses are showing up at town halls to drown out the dialogue, then these website that are encouraging them to do so need to be shouted down.
Hello from Switzerland Nate love your blog and you are sexy in a wonkish way.
Don't know what team you play for but curious minds wanna know. ;)
Photos taken this weekend in Zurich at Street Parade;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lmgts/
"The recession likely does not have enough gas left to get us to 10 percent unemployment." This is your whole reason.
Nope, it is just the use of outdated statistics in order to to manipulate confidence.
Mark A. Sadowski said...
We are in a liquidity trap right now with the federal funds rate pinned to zero...Less abstractly, banks are not lending right now because the risks are too great.
I would suggest that the latter more than cancels out the former. It does not matter whether the Fed loans money to the banks at nearly zero percent interest because interest rates are not the obstacle to commercial lending. Instead, the banks have been very badly burnt by a decade of lending to the non-creditworthy under government gutted underwriting standards and have defensively raised underwriting standards a bit above where they need to be. Until the banks can clean out their toxic assets and develop reserves to lend, they will remain exceedingly conservative.
Firms are not investing because they already have a great deal of excess capacity. The key to changing this situation is raising aggregate demand.
Firms have worked off most of their excess inventory after slashing their workforces. That is why economic growth, if not job growth, is expected to return to parts of the country over the next year. However, until credit loosens up, the recovery is going to be painfully slow.
Tony C -
I am not going to pretend that anyone has the corner on absolute truth.
I made the statement that most economists agree that the minimum wage increases unemployment.
Some disagreed, based purely on FAITH and cherry-picking a few studies.
There are always a few charities to pick.
It is a FACT that 79% of economists, as surveyed at the American Economic Association held these BELIEFS.
Is this how you argue against evolution too? I prefer to rely on the expertise of others to find reproducible observation that I consider evidence.
My goodness. When the data does not favor you, you come with an inherently FAITH-BASED argument.
Just like a creationist would.
Tony C. said...
BD: Consumption is not the primary driver of economic growth, investment is.
No, consumption is. What is called an "investment" in today's economy is typically buying a share of an existing income stream, be it stock or bond.
I use the term investment more broadly to mean any capital input into business - which includes both equity and debt. One of the keys to Anglo American economic domination over the past few centuries were the superior credit markets in these nations that permitted business and government access to more capital than competing nations. Britain and America did not become economically dominant because their people demanded more goods and services.
I would recommend Walter Russell Meade's "God and Gold" for your reading on this subject.
Does Mr.Silver hail from Topeka, KS or is it just happenstance that he references my hometown so much?
Mule Rider said...
Facts and data, people.
You would hope that to be the case, MPM; however, at 538.com and its related ilk (DailyKos, HuffPo, etc.), those "facts" must only support a liberal view of the world or else they must be garbage.
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Mule, why does one continue to troll here if it bothers you so much ?!?
and yes, 538 leans progressive, nice catch!
take care, blessings
The author has it wrong about the jobs picture. It isn't getting brighter. It is getting darker less rapidly.
Davy said...
Hey does anybody know how to shut down a website? I figure all these dumbasses are showing up at town halls to drown out the dialogue, then these website that are encouraging them to do so need to be shouted down.
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Davy that's un-American! Not to worry, those websites will implode from within, much like the Rep party has.
The numerator of the official unemployment statistic, U3, fell by 1.8% (14,462,00 - 14,729,000/14,729,000). The denominator fell by 0.27% (154,504,000 - 153,926,000/154,926,000). So the statistic fell to 9.4% from 9.5.
@Midpointman:
?? I don't argue against evolution; I have seen enough evidence with my own eyes, and laughed at enough idiotic creationist BS, to be convinced it is the only workable hypothesis.
And you weren't presenting the fact of beliefs; you were presenting those beliefs as support for your premise. I conclude you are incapable of logical argument.
@Bart:
... any capital input into a business ...
That is not more broadly, that is less broadly. According to your definition, the vast majority of "investment," since it is not a "capital input" to a business (the business doesn't get a dime when you "invest" in its stock), is not really investment.
And you are factually wrong; America DID become dominant after WW II because its wartime manufacturing capability was converted to commercial uses; it was not physically devastated by the war; and it became the production house for the world.
@shiloh
Not to worry. I was being facetious.
BTW, you may not have been here long enough to know that Mule Rider is our most notorious troll. He has the dubious distinction of having been blocked or moderated out of the site for making death threats. Yet he continues to kidnap the conversation on a routine basis for reasons I can't fathom.
There are always a few charities to pick.
It is a FACT that 79% of economists, as surveyed at the American Economic Association held these BELIEFS.
Is this how you argue against evolution too? I prefer to rely on the expertise of others to find reproducible observation that I consider evidence.
My goodness. When the data does not favor you, you come with an inherently FAITH-BASED argument.
Pot. Kettle. Black. You are simply parroting a misquoted citation that you saw on some right-wing site.
The FACTS are as follows:
"Almost three-fourths of labor economists (73%) believe that a mandated minimum wage increase set at 150% of the current wage would result in employment losses."
150% of the current wage is ridiculous. That's like suggesting raising the minimum wage from $6 to $9 in one fell swoop. The minimum wage has never been increased that much at one time ever. Indeed, you have to go back 13 years to find a cumulative increase of 50%.
Is this how you argue about evolution? This is like saying that evolutionary biologists don't believe a fish could evolve into a human... and conveniently forgetting to mention that they don't believe it could do it in ten years.
As usual, a conservative takes a survey, omits wording that does not support his point, and proceeds from there. How about this part?
"Nearly half of labor economists (49%) believe a mandated minimum wage set at 150% of the current wage would lead to no change in poverty rates, 32% believe it will reduce poverty rates and 19% believe it will increase poverty rates."
Bart DePalma said...
Only Idaho would fall under that category. Nevada and Arizona are not mountain west states and both are joined at the hip economically with CA.
The Mountain States (also known as the Mountain West) form one of the nine geographic divisions of the United States that are officially recognized by the United States Census Bureau. According to the United States Census Bureau, the Mountain West consists of the following states:
Arizona
Colorado
Idaho
Montana
Nevada
New Mexico
Utah
Wyoming
The United States Census Bureau classifies Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington as the Pacific States. The two divisions (Mountain States and Pacific States) form the West Region. When other Federal Government agencies refer to a division or region, they are referring to the United States Census Bureau classifications, unless otherwise noted.
So it would appear that you are using your own criteria to define what region a state is in, but sane people use official designations.
As to the data from IHS?
It's on a table about 2/3 of the way down the page at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32314827/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy
I may have incorrectly identified what the table stated. It is the return of employment to the highest employment reached before the recession. It is not an estimate of when the state will exit the recession.
Does that answer your questions, Mr. dePalma?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Tony C. said...
And you are factually wrong; America DID become dominant after WW II because its wartime manufacturing capability was converted to commercial uses; it was not physically devastated by the war; and it became the production house for the world.
Brush up on your economic history:
By 1870, the United States was the third largest national economy behind Great Britain and China.
By the eve of WWII, the United States was the largest national economy and never relinquished the position over the next century.
Until it lost its empire, Great Britain was near or at the top.
Mike:
OK, the census department administratively includes Nevada and Arizona in the mountain West despite their lack of mountains and economic alliance with the left coast.
Whatever.
OK, the census department administratively includes Nevada and Arizona in the mountain West despite their lack of mountains and economic alliance with the left coast.
We all know you are an idiot, but holy shit. Arizona doesn't have mountains? Really? What planet do you live on? Certainly not the one with a city that is around 7000 feet above sea level. Having more then 150 mountain ranges in the state doesn't qualify them? Of course the fact that they are considered a mountain west state, and despite your ramblings to the contrary are tied very closely to NV, UT, CO, and NM economically and in terms of natural resources doesn't mean anything I guess.
I guess if you only have been to Phoenix you might think, the fact that there are mountains in the Phoenix area notwithstanding, you might think they lack mountains. Just like if you were only in some parts of southern Idaho you would think that of Idaho, or eastern Montana.
Bart DePalma said...
Brush up on your economic history:
and then goes on to demonstrate his/her/it's lack of history AND math:
By the eve of WWII, the United States was the largest national economy and never relinquished the position over the next century.
If we are VERY generous, we can date the eve of WWII to when Hitler ascended to the German Chancellorship (January 1933), although most actual historians would date "the eve of WWII" to at least four years later.
One century is 100 years.
So, according to our very learned Mr. dePalma, we are now in or approaching the year 2033?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
OK, the census department administratively includes Nevada and Arizona in the mountain West despite their lack of mountains and economic alliance with the left coast.
Oh my God, are you kidding? The name of the state comes from the Sierra Nevada mountain range. The name MEANS "snowy". Nevada is practically nothing but mountains - it is virtually defined by the Great Basin, a high plateau between two massive mountain ranges. Reno's elevation is 4,400 feet, Lake Tahoe's elevation is 6,300 feet.
You are doing nothing but arguing from pure truthiness. Facts don't come from books, they come from your gut, right?
By 1870, the United States was the third largest national economy behind Great Britain and China.
Seriously, you are a clown.
The amount of production in the US was minuscule compared to its growth because of WW2 and was its power economically was nothing compared to what it was because of the war and the "leftist" policies like the GI bill.
@Davy:
BTW, you may not have been here long enough to know that Mule Rider is our most notorious troll. He has the dubious distinction of having been blocked or moderated out of the site for making death threats. Yet he continues to kidnap the conversation on a routine basis for reasons I can't fathom.
¡DNFTT!
Click here for help.
Davy said...
@shiloh
Not to worry. I was being facetious.
BTW, you may not have been here long enough to know that Mule Rider is our most notorious troll. He has the dubious distinction of having been blocked or moderated out of the site for making death threats. Yet he continues to kidnap the conversation on a routine basis for reasons I can't fathom.
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You must have missed my recent chit/chat w/Mule because thanx to others posting Mule's "greatest hits" from the past I'm totally up to speed on his ad nauseam sour grape, sore loser meme.
And one of his last ;) replies to me, then there will be no more further discussion between the two of us. Period. means I can continue to tell the truth about him w/impunity lol.
But replying to Mule has become kicking a dead horse.
Interesting to note, most of the trolls I encountered before the 2008 election were somewhat entertaining and not one trick pony ideologues as even they would admit cheney/bush were an unmitigated disaster! but, but, but after Obama was elected and the reality of how far the party of No! has fallen, nothing was amusing to the former disingenuously smug apologist trolls who are now constantly under attack trying to rationalize the total discombobulation of their party by being negative 24/7.
PK, and especially Mule and a few others who post at 538 can't process the reality of an African/American family living in the White House and their beloved party of No! going the way of the dinosaur!
but, but, but, I'm old enough to remember the pundits ;) in the mid 60s saying how can the Reps recover from LBJ's landslide ~ Nixon elected in '68, btw with 43.4% of the vote, I digress and then the '72 landslide, again lol the pundits said how will the Dems ever recover ~ Carter elected in '76. So as Lord Acton said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." which was shortened over time to Absolute power corrupts absolutely! ie the party of No! is hoping/praying for Obama to fail!
Although the Rep political reality is the Iraq war, Afghanistan war, financial collapse, banking crisis, Katrina etc. all happened on the cheney/bush watch and political trends all favor the Dems.
When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to pause and reflect! ~ Mark Twain
Off Topic, but this is just too funny.
I was just flipping through the channels and noticed that Lou Dobbs is now doing a series of reports on the healthcare systems in use around the world.
His epiphany? Many countries in the world have better health outcomes, and are much much less costly than the system we currently employ.
Being the "common sense" kind of guy that he is, he is just shocked that none of the politicians in D.C. understand this fact. Likewise, he can not understand why neither party is trying to come up with solutions that implement some of the successful models used around the globe.
Meanwhile over on CNBC, Larry Kudlow and palls are proclaiming that the markets have soared thus far, and will continue to soar BECAUSE Obama is such an abject failure. Funny how the same argument would surely apply if the markets were going down.
It won't matter what the economy does in the coming years, these clowns will be sure to spin the story line so as to claim Obama blew it.
Our very learned Mr. dePalma said...
OK, the census department administratively includes Nevada and Arizona in the mountain West despite their lack of mountains
First, it is the United States Census Bureau. In the Federal Government, Departments and Bureaus are distinct categories, with Departments classified as being part of the President's Cabinet. The Census Bureau is part of (a bureau of) the United States Department of Commerce. Commerce is part of the President's Cabinet; the Census Bureau is not.
Second, no mountains in Arizona OR Nevada?
Arizona:
- Mean Elevation of the state of Arizona is 4,100 feet above sea level.
- Highest point in Arizona is Humphreys Peak, northwest of Flagstaff, at 12,633 feet above sea level.
(http://www.netstate.com/states/geography/az_geography.htm)
That's about an 8,500 foot difference between mean and highest.
(due to character limitations, continued in another post)
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
(continued from above)
As to Arizona mountain ranges:
- Aguas Caliente Mountains–Yuma County
- Agua Dulce Mountains–Pima County
- Aguila Mountains–Yuma County
- Ajo Range–Pima County
- Alvarez Mountains–Pima County
- Aquarius Mountains–Mohave County
- Artesa Mountains–Pima County
- Artillery Mountains–Mohave County
- Atascosa Mountains–Santa Cruz County
- Baboquivari Mountains–Pima County
- Batamote Mountains–Pima County
- Bates Mountains–Pima County
- Beaver Dam Mountains–Mohave County
- Belmont Mountains–Maricopa County
- Big Horn Mountains (Arizona)–Maricopa County
- Big Lue Mountains–Greenlee County
- Bill Williams Mountains–Mohave County
- Black Mountains (Arizona)–Mohave County
- Blackjack Mountains–Gila County
- Bradshaw Mountains–Yavapai County
- Brownell Mountains–Pima County
- Bryan Mountains–Yuma County
- Buck Mountains–Mohave County
- Buckhorn Mountains–Yavapai County
- Buckskin Mountains–La Paz County
- Butler Mountains–Yuma County
- Cabeza Prieta Mountains–Yuma County
- Carrizo Mountains–Apache County
- Casa Grande Mountains–Pinal County
- Castle Mountains–Pima County
- Castle Dome Mountains–Yuma County
- Cerbat Mountains–Mohave County
- Cerro Colorado Mountains–Pima County
- Chiricahua Mountains–Cochise County
- Chocolate Mountains (Arizona)–La Paz County
- Chuska Mountains–Apache County
- Cimarron Mountains–Pima County
- Connell Mountains–Yavapai County
- Copper Mountains–Yuma County
- Cottonwood Mountains–Mohave County
- Coyote Mountains–Pima County
- Crater Range–Maricopa County
- Crooked Mountains–Pima County
- Date Creek Mountains–Yavapai County
- Diablo Mountains (Arizona)–Pima County
- Dome Rock Mountains–La Paz County
- Dos Cabezas Mountains–Cochise County
- Dragoon Mountains–Cochise County
- Dripping Spring Mountains–Pinal County
- Eagletail Mountains–Maricopa County
- Empire Mountains–Pima County
- Gakolik Mountains–Pima County
- Galiuro Mountains–Graham County
- Gila Mountains (Graham County)–Graham County
- Gila Mountains (Yuma County)–Yuma County
- Gila Bend Mountains–Maricopa County
- Goldfield Mountains–Maricopa County
- Granite Mountains–Pima County (Arizona)-Yavapai County
- Granite Wash Mountains–La Paz County
- Grayback Mountains–Yavapai County
- Growler Mountains–Pima County
- Guadalupe Mountains–Cochise County
(due to character limitations, continued in another post)
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
(continued from above)
- Harcuvar Mountains–E. Yuma County -- (W. Yavapai County)
- Harquahala Mountains–E. La Paz County -- (W. Maricopa County)
- Hayes Mountains–Gila County
- Hieroglyphic Mountains–N. Maricopa County -- (some in S. Yavapai County}
- Hobble Mountains–Coconino County
- Huachuca Mountains–Cochise County
- Hualapai Mountains–Mohave County
- John the Baptist Mountains–Pima - Juniper Mountains–Yavapai County
- Kofa Mountains–N. Yuma County - (S. La Paz County)
- La Lesna Mountains–Pima County
- Laguna Mountains (Arizona)–Yuma County (see also: Laguna Mountains(Calif))
- Las Guijas Mountains–Pima County
- Little Ajo Mountains–Pima County
- Little Buckskin Mountains–La Paz County
- Little Dragoon Mountains–Cochise County
- Little Harquahala Mountains–La Paz County
- Little Horn Mountains–S. La Paz County -- (N. Yuma County)
- Little Rincon Mountains–Cochise County
- Lukachukai Mountains–Apache County
- Maricopa Mountains–Maricopa County
- Mazatzal Mountains–Southeast Yavapai County -- (and N. Maricopa County, W. Gila County)
- McAllister Range–Yavapai County
- McCloud Mountains–Yavapai County
- McCracken Mountains–Mohave County
- McDowell Mountains, Arizona|McDowell Mountains]]–Maricopa County
- Mescal Mountains–Gila County
- Mesquite Mountains–Pima County
- Middle Mountains–S. La Paz County -- (N. Yuma County)
- Mineral Mountains–Pinal County
- Mingus Mountain, (= "Black Hills")–Yavapai County
- Moccasin Mountains–Mohave County
- Mohave Mountains–Mohave County
- Mohawk Mountains–Yuma County
- Mohon Mountains–Yavapai County
- Moquith Mountains–Mohave County
- Muggins Mountains–Yuma County
- Mule Mountains–Cochise County
- Music Mountains–Mohave County
- Mustang Mountains–Santa Cruz County
- Navajo Mountain, Arizona–Coconino County (mostly in Utah)
- Natanes Mountains–Graham County
- New River Mountains–Yavapai County
- New Water Mountains–S. La Paz County -- (connected to Kofa Mountains, N. Yuma County)
- North Comobabi Mountains–Pima County
- Painted Rock Mountains–Maricopa Count
- Pajarito Mountains–Santa Cruz County
- Palo Verde Mountains–Pinal County
- Palomas Mountains–Yuma County
- Patagonia Mountains–Santa Cruz County
- Peacock Mountains–Mohave County
- Pedrogosa Mountains–Cochise County
- Peloncillo Mountains–E. Greenlee County -- (W. Hidalgo County, New Mexico)
- Perilla Mountains–Cochise County
- Phoenix Mountains–Maricopa County
- Picacho Mountains–Pinal County
- Pinal Mountains–Gila County
- Pinaleno Mountains–Graham County
- Plomosa Mountains–La Paz County
- Poachie Range–E. Mohave County -- (W. Yavapai County)
- Pozo Redondo Mountains–Pima County
- Pozo Verde Mountains–Pima County
- Puerto Blanco Mountains–Pima County
- Quijotoa Mountains–Pima County
- Quinlan Mountains–Pima County
(due to character limitations, continued in another post)
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Mike in Maryland
(continued from above)
- Rawhide Mountains–Mohave County
- Rincon Mountains–Pima County
- Roskruge Mountains–Pima County
- Sacaton Mountains–Pinal County
- Salt River Mountains–Gila County
- San Cayento Mountains–Santa Cruz County
- San Francisco Mountains–Greenlee County
- San Francisco Peaks–Coconino County
- San Luis Mountains–Pima County
- Santan Mountains–Pinal County
- Sand Tank Mountains–Maricopa County
- Santa Catalina Mountains–Pima County
- Santa Maria Mountains–Yavapai County
- Santa Rita Mountains–Santa Cruz County
- Santa Rosa Mountains–Pima County
- Santa Teresa Mountains–Graham County
- Sauceda Mountains–Pima County
- Sawmill Mountains–Mohave County
- Sawtooth Mountains–Pinal County
- Sevenmile Mountains–Gila County
- Sheridan Mountains–Pima County
- Shiprock–Navajo County
- Sierra Ancha–Gila County
- Sierra Arida–Yuma County
- Sierra Blanca Mountains–Pima County
- Sierra de la Lechuguilla–Yuma County
- Sierra de la Nariz–Pima County
- Sierra de Santa Rosa–Pima County
- Sierra Estrella–Maricopa County
- Sierra Madre Occidental–Regional Western Mexico - (extension of individual ranges, along entire United States-Mexico border)
- Sierra Pinta–Yuma County
- Sierra Prieta–Yavapai County
- Sierrita Mountains–Pima County
- Sikort Chuapo Mountains–Pima County
- Silver Bell Mountains–Pima County
- Silver Reef Mountains–Pinal County
- Slate Mountains–Pinal County
- Sonoyta Mountains–Pima County
- South Comobabi Mountains–Pima County
- South Mountains (Arizona)–Maricopa County
- Suizo Mountains–Pinal County
- Summit Mountains–E. Greenlee County -- (W. Grant County, New Mexico)
- Superstition Mountains–Pinal County
- Swisshelm Mountains–Cochise County
- Table Top Mountains–Pinal County
- Tank Mountains–Yuma County
- Tat Momoli Mountains–Pinal County
- Tinajas Altas Mountains–Yuma County
- Tortilla Mountains–Pinal County
- Tortolita Mountains–Pinal County
- Trigo Mountains–La Paz County
- Tucson Mountains–Pima County
- Tule Mountains–Yuma County
- Tumacacori Mountains–Santa Cruz County
- Tunitcha Mountains–Apache County
- Uinkaret Mountains–Mohave County
- Usery Mountains–Maricopa County
- Vekol Mountains–Pinal County
- Virgin Mountains–N. Mohave County -- (E. Clark County, Nevada)
- Vulture Mountains–Maricopa County
- Waterman Mountains–Pima County
- Weaver Mountains–Yavapai County
- West Silver Bell Mountains–Pima County
- Whetstone Mountains–Cochise County
- White Mountains (Arizona)–Apache County
- White Tank Mountains–Maricopa County
- Whitlock Mountains–Graham County
- Wickenburg Mountains–Yavapai County
- Winchester Mountains–N. Cochise County -- (they merge into S. Galiuro Mountains, Graham County)
- Yon Dot Mountains–Coconino County
Either someone at the Arizona Department of Tourism has a vivid imagination, or that's a long list of mountain ranges.
As to Nevada? Too many to list. While Arizona has less than 200 named mountain ranges, the list for Nevada runs to almost 300.
So, do you still think that Arizona and Nevada have a "lack of mountains"?
Whatever.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
@Persuter -
Right wing site? HAHA.
It is the UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA
Berkeley Electronic Press.
http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol3/iss9/art1/
It was in a JOURNAL.
You got the quote from SOME OTHER SOURCE.
The number in this survey was 79%
Not 73%!
Of course, you must have managed to find corroborating evidence.
Way to go!
As far as the 150% increase, it is not in this survey, but many Libs want to double the minimum wage.
FAIL!
Tony C -
You specialize in gobledygook.
Nothing you write makes much sense.
It is not my problem that you cannot sort out fact and belief.
You argue just as a creationist does, which makes you about as open-minded to actual evidence.
That is your problem, not mine.
FACT: 79% of economists believe the minimum wage contributes to unemployment.
Suck it.
@Persuter -
Do you read well?
My source is a 2006 Survey done at the American Economic Association.
Your source is from 2007 and is only labor economists, and done by a wholly different group.
It is so embarrassing to debate people on this site.
It is like arguing with a bunch of creationists, and most often you end up proving my point.
You just cited a corroborating source for me!
Thanks!
I'm willing to bet that the reason why unemployment won't hit 10% is because they'll keep changing how the figure is computed.
If you compute unemployment the same way it was in 1980 the figure would be MUCH higher than 10% right now.
Do your own research.
My own thoughts were that it wouldn't reach 10% - your work has convinced me to stake my $10 against it.
Bradland said...
I'm willing to bet that the reason why unemployment won't hit 10% is because they'll keep changing how the figure is computed.
If you compute unemployment the same way it was in 1980 the figure would be MUCH higher than 10% right now.
Do your own research.
Got a citation that explains the difference, and how using the 1980 method would show a much different result?
Only the lazy, or TROLLs, can't back up their (usually baseless) assertions.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Oh boy, a geographic snit. OK, I'll play.
Mean altitudes in the low thousands are common across the west and hardly qualify as foothills nevertheless part of the Rocky Mountain chain. My house on the foothills of Pikes Peak is higher than 99% of Arizona and Nevada.
Nevada is consists of an enormous plateau between California and Utah mountain ranges that spill over the border. Only someone who has never been in real mountains would consider Nevada to be a mountain state. Almost all off its population and its economy borders and is joined at the hip with CA.
Arizona and New Mexico are economically and culturally Southwestern states with far more in common with CA, TX and Mexico than the Rocky Mountain states to their north. Geographically, Arizona has foothills in the middle and to the north. I suppose you could call AZ a mountain state compared to Nevada, but I have higher and more rugged terrain within a mile of my house in the foothills of Pikes Peak than anything in Arizona. Pardon my mountain snobbery, but I just can not count Arizona among the Rocky Mountain states like CO, UT, WY, ID and MT.
Mike in Maryland said...
Bart DePalma said... By the eve of WWII, the United States was the largest national economy and never relinquished the position over the next century.
If we are VERY generous, we can date the eve of WWII to when Hitler ascended to the German Chancellorship (January 1933), although most actual historians would date "the eve of WWII" to at least four years later.
Sorry to confuse you with the typo. I meant to type WWI, not WWII. Of course, if you read the linked historical GDP information, you would have known that the US became the largest national economy by 1913 and that I was referring to WWI.
Bart,
The master of talking out of his ass.
Given that you thought NV and AZ were flat, you obviously don't know the first thing about them. So your statement about not having more rugged terrain, is not only pointless, but a laughable attempt at diversion.
I guess people like you who are proud about their ignorance have no shame.
Our very learned Mr. dePalma said...
Oh boy, a geographic snit. OK, I'll play.
Mean altitudes in the low thousands are common across the west and hardly qualify as foothills nevertheless part of the Rocky Mountain chain. My house on the foothills of Pikes Peak is higher than 99% of Arizona and Nevada.
And parts of Arizona, at 70 feet above sea level, are lower than ANY state that isn't actually on the coast of the Atlantic, the Arctic and/or Pacific Oceans, and/or on the Gulf. Compare Arizona's lowest elevation of 70 feet above sea level to Colorado's lowest elevation of 3,315 feet above sea level.
The height of a Mountain Range doesn't matter as to whether it is called a Mountain Range or not. The Appalachian Mountains are not that high (the tallest is Mount Mitchell in North Carolina at 6,684 feet), but even so, everyone who is sane would call the Appalachian Mountains a Mountain Range.
AND they are much older than the Rockies OR the Himalayas.
As to whether Arizona has mountains or not, just compare a relief (aka topography) map of Arizona vs. Colorado. You'll see that more than 1/2 of each state is covered by mountainous terrain.
In fact, I'll make it easy for you, our most learned Mr. dePalma:
http://geology.com/state-map/arizona.shtml
http://geology.com/state-map/colorado.shtml
And then compare both to:
http://geology.com/state-map/nevada.shtml and/or
http://geology.com/state-map/utah.shtml and/or
http://geology.com/state-map/utah.shtml and/or
http://geology.com/state-map/idaho.shtml
Even this map (http://geology.com/state-map/montana.shtml) could be interpreted as rivaling Colorado on the ruggedness of terrain.
And we can't forget this state (http://geology.com/state-map/new-mexico.shtml), especially the northern 1/4 of the state, and the western portion.
You can decide what is or is not something, but that doesn't mean that anyone else, especially a SANE person, has to believe it.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Nate
It's official, you are out of your ever loving mind. You are trusting BLS stats.
Tsunami named deleveraging coming.
The only economist who predicted the current economic collapse before the collapse was Nouriel Roubini of NYU. He is a Keynesian and in no way is a conservative, free-market economist. He predicts unemployment going up to 10% by the fall and topping out at 11% sometime in 2010. In fact, he states that in real terms, unemployment is probably already at 15% due to discouraged workers and partially emplyed worker, who are not counted in official unemployment statistics (See here:http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/08/jobs-report-mortgages-unemployment-recession-opinions-columnists-nouriel-roubini.html)
I don't always agree with his solutions, but Professor Roubini always delivers a sound analysis of the economy and he's been doing it for a long time. If I had to bet, I'd rather go with his analysis/prediction of unemployment figures than Nate's.
MpM I would be far more Impressed if you could come up with examples where a minimum wage has actually lead to higher unemployment rates. Practical examples would be far more meaningful than abstract theories. I have already pointed out that when the UK introduced a minimum wage employment numbers continued to rise.
I'll give you a quick hand. You could point out that the US raised it's minimum wage this year and employment numbers are falling. But then there is little or no suggestion that the current falls in employment have anything to do with the level of minimum wage.
Just very quickly let me try and explain some of the fallacy in the Minimum wage=more unemployment meme.
Basically, take an employer. He is not going to employ, in goos times or bad, any more people than he feels he needs to. The wage level is then set in terms of what he can afford. Say a minimum wage comes in. Mr Employer does not want to lay people off becuase all of those people are doing useful work for the company. It is likely that actually very few are working at anything like minimum wage levels. The one thing the employer can't do is lay off workers, as they are already doing useful work. So he has a choice, increase prices, or decrease profits.
This can change if the economy takes a downturn. But then the marginal level of wages is unlikely to be a factor in hiring and firing at that point. It might also be the case that occasionally high labor costs make hiring new staff difficult, but again, either the staff are needed, and money will be found, or the company is doing something very unlikely, ie reducing profits unnecesarily.
One other thing MpM, I actually bothered to read the link you posted from berkely press. Here is the only information I can find in it about the minimum wage
The federal minimum wage in the U.S. should be:
a. eliminated. 46.8%
b. decreased. 1.3
c. kept at the current level. 14.3
d. increased by about 50 cents per hour. 5.2
e. increased by about $1 per hour. 15.6
f. increased by more than $1 per hour. 16.9
No 79% of economists think a minimum wage increases unemployment or anything similar. When asked about the current level of the minimum wage, 77 respondents gave a view. (Hardly a huge sample!) Less than 50% of respondents thought it should be reduced or eliminated. More than 50% thought it should be kept at its current level or increased.
And I can find no direct link between bepress and the University of California (I raise that as a point of technicality rather than as a reason to distrust bepress at all, it seems a reasonable academic repositry, just being a pedant!)
But then I googled 79% economists minimum wage, and found no useful links (the 79 that google found tended to relate to 1979!) As a matter of pedantry again the Real Clear Markets post you link to reveals that 79% of economists surveyed by Greg Mankiw say 'A minimum wage increases unemployment among young and unskilled workers'. Which is different from saying that a minimum wage leads to higher unemployment per se. And I am leaving aside the fact that its Greg Mankiw who is hardly the most centrist of all economists, and Nate has jousted with on this very site. (RCM offers no links to Makniw's research on this so I can't lay into that at this point!)
(Have I made my point yet MpM?)
@MarkyMark:
I would like to echo your remarks and add a few justifications.
Employers routinely minimize wages anyway; and minimum wage employees are generally interchangeable; their lack of any valuable skills, either physical or mental, is why they are earning minimum wage in the first place.
The fact that somebody is earning minimum wage is a sign that their employer feels no compunction about paying just minimum wage; and thus we'd expect them to have no compunctions about eliminating excess employees. This means the organizations that employ minimum wage workers are probably operating with as few workers as practicable already.
Finally, as a practical matter, increasing the minimum wage by 10% or so will add about 3% to the costs of a typical business, and thus a 2% increase in prices will usually cover that cost. Even if your customers are minimum wage workers, their 10% increase in income would cover this 2% inflation easily.
It isn't free money, of course. The 2% inflation works its way through the economy and eventually reduces the real wages of non-minimum wage workers by a tiny fraction of a percent (not 2%; the biggest effect of inflation is it acts like a flat tax on cash (or cash equivalent) assets, which translates into a tax weighted toward the wealthy).
Thus a raise in the minimum wage is very unlikely to decrease employment at all, and we see a clear mechanism for how it can actually increase employment: Minimum wage workers are very likely to spend all the money they earn, so the increased pay is nearly 100% spent, every paycheck, and spent locally. Thus products and services are bought, increasing demand and adding jobs.
For my fellow progressives and liberals out there, realize that moderate inflation is not such a bad thing. Inflation is progressive and affects the rich with large cash assets far more than the middle class or poor, whose assets tend to be hard property (houses, cars, furniture and electronics and so on), and the wages of the poor and middle class tend to keep pace with the cost of living.
In the most recent, widespread study on the minimum wage, David Neumark and William Wascher find "that minimum wages do not achieve the main goals set forth by their supporters. They reduce employment opportunities for less-skilled workers and tend to reduce their earnings; they are not an effective means of reducing poverty; and they appear to have adverse longer-term effects on wages and earnings, in part by reducing the acquisition of human capital." (See: http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11659)
@Richard:
I find those conclusions suspect. The primary purpose of a minimum wage is to prevent businesses from exploiting workers with limited mobility, and insufficient leverage to demand fair wages.
The minimum wage corrects the most basic failing of the free market system, in that the people to whom it applies are typically geographically constrained by local dependencies or dependents. For example, they cannot leave the area and seek work elsewhere because their parents depend upon them, or they cannot sell their home, or cannot afford the travel and startup costs of relocation.
Further, these people are required to work for sustenance, so they cannot refuse to work.
The minimum wage (along OSHA and other governmental organizations) is there to ensure these people are not inhumanely exploited due to their constraints. Before the minimum wage there is a plethora of evidence from American industry that corporate interests were all too willing to work people to death (literally) and pay barely enough for people to survive (literally) if not constrained by government.
To claim the minimum wage fails in this regard is ridiculous, it does not require statistics or analysis to see that it works.
Whatever these authors claim is the goal of the minimum wage, they obviously cannot think the goal is to stop the near-slavery exploitation of workers, and therefore miss the boat. The minimum wage delivers, there is a prima facie case for it, and these economists have apparently been blinded by their supply and demand curves to fail to see the history of the New York Garment district and other such nearly criminal industrial malfeasance that led to the minimum wage in the first place.
2 people per day brings freedom my way...let's all help those that are umemployed...is that a great plan?
http://www.gettheinfonow.com
http://tonybeach.iamagel.com
http://www.twitter.com/tonybeach
Richard, noone is denying that there is a debate around this topic, and the fact that there are new books and journal articles coming out about it shows how widespread the debate is.
I still have not seen any EVIDENCE, rather than theory, that shows that a minimum wage increases unemployment. And you would imagine, given how widespread a minimum wage is across the world, that there would now be plenty of such evidence.
I've seen some arguments that a minimum wage actually decreases wage levels amongst certain groups, as employers can now arbitrarily just set a wage level at the minimum wage. But those who suggest it leads to unemployment still need to answer this criticism, are employers in the habit of employing more people than they need? Becuase if not, they cannot afford to lay people off because of a raise in a minimum wage. The choice is either lower profits or lower productivity (due to lower staff numbers) so most businesses are going to take lower profits, and try to recoup other costs, I would suggest.
I know its a bit counter intuitive to suggest that higher wage levels might not lead to higher unemployment, but I think there is genuine evidence and genuine theory to support that idea.
Well, to be pre-emptively accurate, many employers employ more people than they need, but they do not consume more hours than they need.
Walmart (I have relatives that work there) employs about 30% more people than they need. The do this primarily to circumvent the laws on full-time workers by employing the majority of their people part-time; but it has the side benefit of managerial flexibility; meaning it is easier to fire people, or call someone in when a worker is a no-show or quits and walks out. In other words this allows them to treat workers like crap with impunity (the randomized schedules at Walmart should be considered a form of abuse). Walmart controls the total hours worked quite tightly, however; so to Markymark's point, the net employment expense could not decline much if demand for their products remain constant. Of course if there is nobody in the stores then Walmart needs fewer cashiers and stockers, but that is a different issue than the minimum wage question.
Markymark said:
"I still have not seen any EVIDENCE, rather than theory, that shows that a minimum wage increases unemployment."
Here is the abstract from the Neumark and Wascher book (You can download a copy of their findings here: http://ftp.iza.org/dp2570.pdf):
"We review the burgeoning literature on the employment effects of minimum wages – in the
United States and other countries – that was spurred by the new minimum wage research
beginning in the early 1990s. Our review indicates that there is a wide range of existing
estimates and, accordingly, a lack of consensus about the overall effects on low-wage
employment of an increase in the minimum wage. However, the oft-stated assertion that
recent research fails to support the traditional view that the minimum wage reduces the
employment of low-wage workers is clearly incorrect. A sizable majority of the studies
surveyed in this monograph give a relatively consistent (although not always statistically
significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among
the papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative
employment effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries. Two other
important conclusions emerge from our review. First, we see very few – if any – studies that
provide convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially
from those studies that focus on the broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which
the competitive model predicts disemployment effects. Second, the studies that focus on the
least-skilled groups provide relatively overwhelming evidence of stronger disemployment
effects for these groups."
What they have shown is the overwhelming majority of studies (i.e., EVIDENCE) have shown that minimum wage does negatively effect employment, especially for least-skilled groups. You can argue that despite the fact that minimum wage has a negative effect on employment, there are still some vaild reasons to have a minimum wage law, as Tony C. does above, but you cannot declare there is no evidence available that shows minimum wage increases unemployment. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own fact."
Tony C,
The authors of the study on minimum wage state that "[O]f course, as we have argued elsewhere, the effect of the minimum wage on employment represents only one piece of the analysis necessary to assess whether minimum wages are a useful policy tool for improving the economic position of those at the bottom of the income distribution—
which we believe is the ultimate goal of minimum wage policy." They would probably agree with you that minimum wage was implemented for helping the poor, but they would argue that there are better mechanisms, such as a "basic income," or "guaranteed minimum income," or a "refundable tax credit" that address the issue of poverty better than the minimum wage. Personally, I would prefer a very low minimum wage that was adjusted across the country (a minimum wage in Nebraska should be lower than a minimum wage in new York City) coupled with a means tested "basic income" that would be conditional on individuals willingness to work or do community service.
Ok, I will concede that the report finds some evidence to support the idea that a minimum wage is a threat to employment rates, but remember what you are citing is a study of the studies. And Neuman and Wascher say this 'Indeed, in our view, the preponderance of the evidence points to disemployment effects'. In other words they are using their judgement on the reports they have studied. And there is clearly, having read Neuman and Wascher's discussion paper, plenty of debate. Its hardly a clear open and shut case. And they hardly make it sound like 79% of economists agree.
@Richard:
I am not sure what you mean by "guaranteed minimum income," but it sounds like a welfare program and a politically tougher thing to pass than a minimum wage!
The point of the minimum wage is to prevent companies from competing (or being forced to compete) based on how inhumanely they can treat their employees.
It is the same reason we have OSHA, and our very poorly enforced truth in advertising laws, and safety standards for products, and the FDA, and FAA, and SEC, and labeling requirements, and all of that superstructure enforced by the big bad government.
Every one of those things is not some liberal utopian dream; every single one of them was passed into law over the objections of businesses that had already proven how willing they were to lie, cheat, steal and knowingly sicken, injure and kill both their own employees and their own customers in the name of profit.
Now I am in business, spent my life as a consultant to business, and made a fine amount of money from business, but that doesn't change the fact that most big business is clinically psychopathic, and if they aren't faced with the threat of bankruptcy or jail, they have no morals. This is being proven once again in India, China, and other overseas venues; not that we need any more proof than we have already accumulated in the past 100 years.
Seriously, it is these laws that create a civilized workplace. I believe in a welfare state for people incapable of work, or with a diminished capacity for work, or willing to work but with no work available; but besides that I think a minimum wage is the fair route, and it should allow an individual to exceed the poverty level of income. That puts people to work. Unless they are on their own, I don't much care if teens are underemployed or can afford a new iPod.
If that is what we care about, lets make some tax preference laws on family income, so teens in need (e.g. to help support their families, get educated or take care of a child) can take to an employer an IRS certificate that can be legally used to preferentially hire those teens in exchange for a tax break on the employer contribution. A hardship employment credit for employers.
That should shift the underemployment (if it exists) to those teens trying to earn a trip to Cancun for spring break.
markymark,
I believe Neumark's and Wascher's main concern was to refute those studies that tried to show that the minimum wage laws increased employment (only 8 of the 102 studies found positive effects) and I believe they effectively did that.
You left out the birth death model - it has added 1M jobs already. Do you believe that? Small businesses too small to count have been 'adding' 100-200K jobs a month except in January and July according to govt?
The workforce participation rate dropped 400K last month
All these new college grads and HS grads are not in any labor number either before they never had a full time gig. Etc
Reality check - if unemployment was measured as it was before early 90s it would be mid 13%s - so this talk of reaching 10% is just the politicians messing with you. Sorry.
http://www.fundmymutualfund.com/2009/08/july-unemployment-rate-back-down-to-134.html
Nate,
I think your prediction is slightly premature.
NYEconomist, if I am reading his comment correctly, indicated that instead of heading into a parabolic drop in unemployment rates, we may be entering into a sine wave stage with lots of little peaks and valleys. Your model does not seem to have taken this possibility into account, and while I cannot be completely sure that such a state of affairs will come to pass, I believe that it is of comparable likelihood as the precipitous drop that you have depicted in your graphics.
I hope you're right, but it hardly seems like enough evidence to say anything conclusively.
Also, to pick at your ablative cultural analysis... accustom to bad news? From the mid 90's until only very recently there was nothing but good news for the US. Though dualities are laden with falacy, one's snap reaction is that what goes up and stays up will eventually go down and stay down for a comparable amount of time. It may be that we are so accustom to good news that we have no frame of reference to understand the long-term, collective malaise we may entering into.
Beyond employment there are other scary occurances and troubling statistics which do not have such glittering silver linings. How will these things come to impact our lives? I think that is what is really going to make the world an interesting place for the next 10-ish years.
Tony C,
First, you would be surprised how many economists on both sides of the aisle support a "guaranteed basic income" program. The earned income tax credit and child tax credits, which are politically popular, are types of guaranteed basic income program.
That aside, I do agree with the notion of a localized, minimum wage for the reasons you suggest, but the government has to be careful where that wage is set. Furthermore, all those regulations that you mention wind up favoring the large corporations you hate, simply because the large corporations can absorb those regulation costs, whereas the small or medium sized businesses cannot and wind up going out of business. Like anything else, there has to be a balance to regulation. The government setting some minimum standards that protect everyone is good, but sometimes the regulators go too far. I think the Clinton Administration's efforts at cost/benefit analyses of regulations was a step in the right direction.
Richard and TraderMark,
Give us your opinion of the Laffer Curve, the basis for defending it, or why it is incorrect.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Mike in maryland,
The use of the Laffer curve by conservatives is very similar to the use of increasing the minimum wage by liberals. Increasing minimum wage will not increase jobs, no matter what a liberal may tell you. Likewise, using the Laffer curve to advocate that cutting taxes always correlates to increased revenues is also wrong.
Now, just like there may be another justification for implementing a very low, localized minimum wage law, coupled with some form of a basic income program, there is justification that when you cut taxes and revenues increase, the tax rate was probably too high. In fact, Laffer states that he got the idea from Lord Keynes, the "Liberal God" of economics. Here's what Keynes said:
"Nor should the argument seem strange that taxation may be so high as to defeat its object, and that, given sufficient time to gather the fruits, a reduction of taxation will run a better chance than an increase of balancing the budget. For to take the opposite view today is to resemble a manufacturer who, running at a loss, decides to raise his price, and when his declining sales increase the loss, wrapping himself in the rectitude of plain arithmetic, decides that prudence requires him to raise the price still more--and who, when at last his account is balanced with nought on both sides, is still found righteously declaring that it would have been the act of a gambler to reduce the price when you were already making a loss."
Some economists argue that the rate is too high on the other side of 50%--like around 65%. I would argue that the tax rate is too high when it starts to approach 50%--like around 45%. I could show why this is so logically and mathematically, but I'm too tired right now.
Richard said...
The use of the Laffer curve by conservatives is very similar to the use of increasing the minimum wage by liberals.
You keep making a claim that increasing the minimum wage will cause a drop in employment, or if not a drop, will cause no increase.
PROVE IT.
Just because it sounds right doesn't make it right.
Everyone who knows anything about science knows that it is easier to freeze water when it starts out closer to the freezing point of water.
When I was growing up, we didn't have frost free refrigerators, or automatic ice makers. We had to put the water to freeze in metal trays, usually in 'ice cube compartments'. We kids was always told to use warm or hot water, as that caused the water to freeze into ice cubes much faster. It didn't sound right, but we did it anyway, so as to not 'upset the elders'.
A few years ago, some scientists got to wondering if the old method actually worked. The tried hot water in trays in a modern, frost free freezer, and they put cold water in trays in that same freezer. They found that science was correct, as the cold water froze faster than the hot water. But they thought about the differences in refrigerators of today vs. the refrigerators of 40-60 years ago. Eventually they remembered that it used to be no one knew how to make a frost free refrigerator, and that frost built up everywhere in those freezers of 40-60 years ago. They got their hands on some of the old refrigerators with non-frost free freezers, and tried the experiment again. In those tests, the trays filled with hot water consistently froze faster than the trays filled with cold water, and as more tests were made before defrosting the freezer, the greater the difference in freezing times.
They then figured out why the hot water froze faster - and it was very simple. Frost, just like snow, is a very good insulator. The hot water melted the accumulated frost better and faster than the cold water, thus making earlier contact with the cold surface of the freezer. With nothing insulating it from the cold, the water froze faster. The cold water filled trays were insulated from the cold surfaces by the frost, and thus froze much slower.
Yes, water closer to the freezing point, if all things are equal, DO freeze faster. However, the introduction of just one small, seemingly insignificant factor, tosses everything upside down.
And so, what you WANT to be true (raising the minimum wage equals lower employment) just might not be true in the real world.
So, since you keep stating it over and over and over, it is up to you to prove it.
And proving it does not consist of saying "some economists believe' or 'ome economists argue', or 'I could show why . . . but I'm too tired right now'. You might even come up with some 'logic' to show it is true, but what if your 'logic' actually is or contains 'illogic'? Or if you try 'mathematically' to prove the piont, are you sure that you have included each and every variable that might affect your calculations?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
BTW, 'Richard', you start out acting like you are going to dismiss the Laffer curve, but in the end, you totally defend it.
Nice try at obfuscating your position, which is nothing but wingnut, big corporatist, "Wall Street knows best, and no one else knows anything", GOOPer talking point parrot.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
I just like to quickly point out that I didn't ever say a minimum wage would decrease unemployment. (Richard seemed to suggest at least, that I thought that!) My point is really that a minimum wage has a marginal effect either way. It certainly doesn't, in my view, clearly lead to an increase in unemployment or a decrease in employment. These things are impossible to seperate from other economic factors going on at anyone time, and I still haven't seen or found an instance of where, absent of any other negative factors, a minimum wage has caused employment to fall or unemployment to grow. And I am aware of circumstances where the economy was already growing, a minimum wage was introduced, and it had no negative affect.
Markymark,
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you believed that the minimum wage increased employment, just that the authors of the study I sited tried to counter those researchers who tried to prove it. I would agree with you, and I think most economists would agree that under certain circumstances an introduction of a minimum wage or an increase will have no effect.
Mike in Maryland,
Either you need some reading comprehension lessons or you are one of those simple minds that sees everything as black and white. Oh, you need to come up with some new insults too. You're "wingnut" "GOOPer" remarks are getting stale.
Guys, everything was civil for a while, can you take it back that way?
As for the Laffer curve, it certainaly is, a laugher, that is.
The reason it's a laugh is because while conservatives trumpet out that that the Laffer curve shows taxes can be too high, they neglect to mention that it also shows that taxes can be too low (for optimal gov't income without negatively affecting the economy, public opinion etc.). What the conseratives consistently fail to mention is WHERE exactyl we are on the bubble-shaped curve, too high or too low (or just right)? They assume we are too high, but then they fail to realize that the federal tax burden is at its lowest point in the lifetime of probably every poster here. Are we saying that after more than 3 decades of lowering federal taxes, it's still too high?
The reality is that as those federal taxes have been lowered, more and more of the burden of infrastructure maintenance and improvement has shifted to inexpert local bureaucracies, who implement their own sales, income, property, and other taxes (while engaging in extreme corporate welfare programs).
The big government tax machine is not in D.C. anymore - it's at your state capitol building and at city hall. And it's all the fault of people who insist on seeing the world in terms of black and white, and imprecise generalizations like the Laffer curve.
@Richard, MiM:
If that anecdote about Keynes is true, it is disturbing. As a computer scientist, statistician and sometimes dabbling sociologist (my sister is a sociologist and we talk), I am appalled at how many decisions are made in economics because of these just-so stories.
Apparently the Laffer curve is based upon three anecdotal points, and because they don't lie on a straight line, the only thing you can fit to three points is an inverted parabola.
However, even the supposed Keynes anecdotal analogy is wrong-headed.
1) Taxes aren't selling anything and people don't have a choice in the matter. If a manufacturer raises his prices and net revenue goes down, he can point to fewer sales. If we raise taxes and net revenue goes down, that means people are avoiding or hiding the taxed activity from the government. Either that was the intent (taxing cigarettes) or this is an enforcement problem.
2) It is the instinct of most businesses to compete on price, so it is an implausible fiction to think a manufacturer would raise prices and fail to see that was reducing revenue.
3) Why should there be a curve at all? We used to have a marginal rate on the rich of 92% in this country, and people didn't stop earning money. (In fact they found a lot of legal ways to hide income; these were called tax shelters and used to be quite important.)
Speaking now as a former business consultant, the rich put their money into projects based on expected net returns. Meaning, after taxes, and using whatever analysis they can find on the risks versus the potential rewards. Then if they are smart they put that into 20 or more independent projects, because they know analysis can go very wrong; and they don't want to risk everything on a boondoggle (or even a Madoff-like fraud).
So mathematically, the "Laffer" curve should be a threshold, not a curve at all, and it shouldn't kick in until the tax is so high that the remainder percentage cannot cover the risk of the venture. But based on my professional experience with investing returns, such a tax rate would be in the stratospheric range of 80% (for multi-millionaires), and it could be even higher if the craze of tax shelters were revived. (They existed with a wink and a nod from government back when, and probably would again, thus reducing the supposed top bracket from 92% to closer to 50%.)
Further, higher income taxes can encourage investment. The rich with businesses have the most natural tax shelter of all: Expansion. Every dime of expenses in building, paying employees and benefits, buying materials and so on is a business expense, and deducted from revenue before computing income. Of course the new building, new factory, new robots and new raw materials you bought with the revenue are a form of "income," they have enormous value, but they aren't taxed as income. They raise the price of stock for public companies, and that increases the value of options and holdings, but those aren't taxed either until they are exercised or sold.
A higher income tax rate can encourage a higher growth rate due to reinvestment and a higher employment rate and a higher GDP even if it reduces net revenue to the government; so in this sense the Laffer curve (and the Keynes anecdote) completely misses the point:
The government is not a for-profit organization, and the goal of the government should not be to maximize tax revenue anyway. The goal of the government should be to provide the services we have demanded as citizens and nothing more. The goal of government is not to increase or decrease revenues, so who cares about the Laffer curve?
If the federal government needs more money they can print it. Even the rich cannot avoid inflation. The very idea of treating the government like a corporation trying to maximise its "take" from its citizens is either appalling or laughable, depending on one's mood.
Tony C and anyone else who cares,
Here is a fair and simple description of the Laffer Curve theory (See: http://money.howstuffworks.com/trickle-down-economics2.htm).
You can agreee or disagree with it all you want, but the reason Prof. Laffer put forth the theory was not to "maximize" revenues for the government, but rather to show that once the rates get too high, the steep taxes discourage work to an extent that the revenues themselves suffer. As I've mentioned earlier, the question is always at what point between a 0% marginal income tax rate and a 100%marginal income tax rate is the tax rate too high, where you start to see a diminishing return on revenues.
Tony C, Here are my reponses to your 3 points:
1) Yes, if you raise taxes and revenues go down it can be because people are hiding their money (imagine that!), but it also can be because people decide not to be quite so productive due to the higher marginal rate. I think not only did the conservative Reagan administration believe this was the case, but also such notable liberals as Bill Bradley and John F. Kennedy.
2) Your argument whether the Keynes' example is plausible or not will have to be taken up with Mr. Keynes. Unfortunately, he's dead. But seriously, I think he may have been making an absurd example to show that the economic price theory applies to income taxes, just as it does to market transactions. Again, whether you agree with it or not is up to you.
3) Tax shelters were eliminated by bipartisan legislation. From Jack Kemp and the Reagan Administration on the right to Bill Bradley on the left, the 1986 tax reform has been widely held as a successful act of Congress by almost everyone. In fact, the '86 tax reform bill was originally passed in the Democrat-controlled House. Sure, I can see some liberals arguing even today that the 28% rate which was enacted at that time might have been too low, but except for the few special interests who greatly benefited from the loopholes, very few argue today that eliminating the vast array of tax loopholes and shelters was a bad idea. Remember, in the late 70s, it was discovered that even though there was a top marginal rate of 50%, some of the very wealthy were paying a lesser percentage than many of the middle class because of the many deductions and loopholes available to the rich.
How many of the new jobs will actually provide a living wage and benefits? Shouldn't that be what we're looking at, not just any old new jobs? In 1968 the minimum wage paid for 5 gallons of gasoline--and it does not do that today.
@Richard:
You miss my point. Due to the nature of my work, I am exposed to more millionaires than the average person. I have personally worked with about twenty. In my experience the rich are never "discouraged from working" by taxes or any other kind of cost. They see taxes as a cost of doing business, and like any other cost it should be minimized.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be rich, or how people get rich. Their wealth and income are typically disconnected (uncorrelated) with the amount of work they do. Julia Roberts and Brad Pitt are not paid $25,000 an hour, or a million a week, they are paid by the picture, which is a binary event: Either they agree to make the picture or they don't.
Unlike the rest of us, the rich earn their money primarily through either binary events or they just get their money without any work at all, as the owners of some business machine that makes money without any need for their input or guidance. I know one such millionaire that owns a large share of a regional business that she knows nearly nothing about in any detail; she relies upon attorneys and auditors to keep them honest (and keep her taxes paid).
The majority of non-doctor millionaires that work do it because they like the work, the control, the power, the challenge, not because they need the paycheck. Face it, once you hit $10-$20M in assets, you are Paris Hilton Royalty: You never have to work another day, completely safe investments will throw off enough income to let you party the rest of your life wherever you want.
Rank and celebrity is probably more important to Pitt or Roberts than take-home pay; and the same goes for most deca-millionaires. The Laffer's model of the economic behavior of the wealthy is so inaccurate as to be worse than useless, it will make completely wrong predictions of their behavior.
It relies upon the faulty assumption that because we observe the poor, middle class and upper middle class are motivated to work more for more money, that the same must apply to the rich. But the non-rich have unsatisfied wants that can be sated by money, while the rich, by definition, do not. Any wants or needs they have that can be satisfied by money have been. Oprah Winfrey wants for nothing that can be bought. That means the rich are typically working for motivations other than money.
One such multi-millionaire I know is an architect turned builder that builds medical office buildings. He doesn't care about wine, or the theatre -- He cares about medical office buildings. And doctors, and medical equipment requirements, and he wants to build clinics, and has an idea for a children's hospital. When we were first planning out the work I would do for him we went to lunch after a morning meeting. This guy, with a net worth of over $30M and whose income would work out to about $1500/hr, blew off his entire afternoon so he could personally drive me around town so we could check out empty land, and his buildings, and his competitor's buildings, and to tell me stories. I did not encourage this and 100% of this information had nothing to do with anything I could do for him; I was just a new interested ear and this guy had a thirty year long obsession with medical buildings.
So did that little tour cost him $7500? No, because his income is completely unrelated to the number of hours he works, and his motivations happen to produce a lot of income but he is not driven by more or less income. For this particular person I honestly believe if his profits were cut in half it wouldn't slow him down in the least.
When people are not motivated by money they are also not motivated by tax changes. That, Richard, was my point.
Tony C.,
You are right, I don't deal with millionaires, and my main concern is certainly not with them. I do, however, deal with quite a few doctors, lawyers and other professionals and most of them have to work hard for what they earn. They may have some investments, but nothing etraordinary. Many of them earn over the magical $250,000 per year amount (although, with many lawyers, the amount may vary greatly from year to year), and are considered "rich" by the Obama administration, even though it appears that both you and I would not consider someone in the $250,000 to $500,000 range "rich" (well-off, yes, but certainly not rich like those you work with). Many of them were not born wealthy and had to sacrifice and work hard (for lawyers, 80 hour work weeks; for doctors, 24 hour shifts) until they became established professionals. Many of them are still paying on student loans. They are concerned about money for their homes and their children's education and for their retirement and they are, thus, concerned where their tax rate will be in the next few years. I hope you see my point.
Nate - Not only do I think your argument is sound but I think it UNDERSTATES the case for an imminent peaking in unemployment. This is because all the data that you cite from previous cycles are final, revised data. It is a well-know fact (among those who follow employment indicators) that when coming out of a recession, the data that come out in real time are strongly biased downward -- in other words, they are much more likely to be revised up (smaller declines) than down. This is because assumptions must be made about net business formation and employment changes at small establishments, and those assumptions are based on lagged (read: weak) data. Of course all this is conditional on assumption that the economy is currently emerging from recession and that the only issue is how quickly. Of course, there is a chance we could be in a double-dip (W, ironically) recession, and if so all bets are off. But I think you are on solid ground (more solid than you realize) in your prediction that unemployment will not hit 10%. Nice article!
But who CARES about U-3?
If U-6 is going up, who CARES if U-3 is going down?
That's the key thing to think about here.
Nate:
As I posted earlier, it appears that the increase in unemployment merely flattened out starting in May to around a quarter million jobs lost each month. August and the revised July figures are more of the same.
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10.2% in October. Exactly what the projection without the stimulus indicated. So was it a waste of money?
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