8.25.2009

Why Are Senior Citizens Crying "Socialism" at Town Halls?

Like many of you, I'm watching bits and snatches of these town halls broadcast on C-SPAN and elsewhere. I see a lot of elderly people shouting into microphones about "socialism," their fear of big government, and the importance of fiscal responsibility. Elsewhere, other seniors are complaining because in 2010 they aren't going to receive their familiar, cost-of-living adjustments for Social Security, while still others are fretting aloud that the federal government--which happens to run Medicare--shouldn't, um, be meddling with Medicare. A recent Pew poll revealed that 53 percent of seniors are worried that government is becoming "too involved in health care," a much higher share than those under 30 saying the same.

I'm 42. So maybe my mind will change on this as I age, but can those of us who are still working and paying premiums into OADSI and Medicare get a break here?

For starters, it's true that the Social Security benefits will not increase for 2010, but neither will they decrease. And, given that the year-against consumer price index dropped, maintaining the same benefit levels actually has the net effect of a raise in real terms. And yet, we hear complaints that there won't be an increase.

Now, one might counter that, for some things, prices are increasing for seniors--"things" like health care. So we need to make sure seniors have their Medicare, right? I'm fine with that, but let's keep in mind that current retiree-recipients will receive Medicare benefits that, on average, exceed what they ever put in, even when you adjust for inflation. American Enterprise Institute scholar Andrew Biggs makes a powerful point when he calculates that "a typical person who was born in 1944, began work at age 21 in 1965, and in 2009 retired at age 65 and enrolled in Medicare," and who then draws the typical benefit until death at age 83, will have paid roughly $64,971 in Medicare payroll taxes during his/her lifetime but received around $173,886, for a net of "$108,915 more in benefits than he paid in taxes over his lifetime." Hey, that sounds like socialist-style redistribution to me!

Which brings me to my next point: Although the redistributive effects of Social Security and Medicare are to some degree intragenerational, a lot of the redistribution works intergenerationally. Because it's intergenerational--specifically from younger Americans/workers who have paid into these programs at higher tax rates than their parents and grandparents--and because each new American generation is less white than the previous one--such redistribution also has a racial effect. Moreover, as a result of different life expectancies, even the intragenerational redistributive effect has a racial element: Cato's Michael Tanner explains in his 2004 book, Social Security and its Discontents, because of different life expectancies, the typical black man will receive on average about $70,000 less than a white man, and even if the white man and black man both reach age 65, the disparity still remains about $25,000.

So you'll pardon me if I'm unmoved by the complaints of some (not all: some) of these seniors standing up in town halls to warn ominously about big-government socialism at the same time they are benefitting from, well, big-government socialism. That some of the white seniors (again, some) are also echoing falsehoods about illegal immigrants (translation: non-whites) receiving benefits in a country where the younger, less-white generations are redistributing income from their hard labors to pay for the retirements of their whiter elders--especially when many of those immigrants, legal or not, pay into Social Security and Medicare and may never receive their contributions back or have a chance to later obtain benefits--is especially galling.

131 comments

PeteKent said...

I think a big part of the problem is that Obama sucks at being President. He is turning into a poor and passive leader whose cotton candy rhetoric no longer inspires.

Everywhere you look his initiatives are coming up a crapper.

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

BTW Tom's racist allegations against seniors in this peice were disgusting to me.

As an political opponent of the Democrats I really think all this racial polarization is great. Non-whites vote in lockstep for the Democrats, while white people (being more nuanced thinkers) tend to split their votes between the parties.

I suspect that even white people who are inclined to support certain elements of the Democrat agenda find the race-baiting of the left more and more galling and this can only help to run up GOP vote totals in the near term.

That your standard-bearer (Obamster) is also Race-Baiter-in-Chief can only help to accelerate this trend.

You know, Obama is doing a really bad job as President.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Marcos said...

Bunch of whiny old cranks yelling, "I've got mine, eff you!"

GayIthacan said...

Tom:

You seem to overlook one tiny detail here.

The reason there will be no increase is because the cost of ENERGY decreased so massively over the past year.

Except - for many of us who rely on disability or SSA payments, LITTLE OR NO PORTION OF OUR MONTHLY EXPENSES ARE IMPACTED BY 'ENERGY'.

My food and shelter and medical expenses continue to rise. And the cost of electricity has NOT gone down here in New York State. And since I do not own a car, the gas price reduction does me not one single bit of good when it comes to monthly living expenses.

COLA adjustments should be linked to FOOD and SHELTER inflation percentages - with a guaranteed 1% a year increase to cover MEDICARE payment increases in those years where the Consumer Price Index (and its components that play no direct part in the majority of our lives) fails to reflect the actual monthly expenses of those who have paid into the system their entire lives and who rely on it for survival.

Lidian & Mike said...

PeteKent said...
BTW Tom's racist allegations against seniors in this peice were disgusting to me.

Non-whites vote in lockstep for the Democrats, while white people (being more nuanced thinkers) tend to split their votes between the parties.


Thanks, that gave me a chuckle.

STepper said...

The old folks yelling socialism (as if, for them, it were a complaint) are doing so because they are shills for the health insurance industry. Or because they have been ginned up by their right wing friends. They are agents provocateur.

PeteKent said...

Overheard in a nursing home, "Listen, bitch: Shut up and die -- us black folk are tired of payin for whitey health care!"

"And don't give me this 'socialist' crap! That's code for 'coon' around heah!"

"Now where did I leave mah Food Stamps???"

petekent01 (on twitter)

rej4sl said...

My partner through no fault of his own had to wait 3 years for Disability benefits - and we are only now managing to get some sense or order into our lives. Cola is a big deal to us as the majority of our bills are for medications and health care - yup we do get medicare but we had to go on an advantage plan because of the doughnut hole. Other prices are increasing daily and we are told for 2 years your benefits will stay the same which in reality means going down.

We supported Obama and know it is through no fault of his that Medicare and Cola both suck ... through experience ... Medicare needs fixing - the doughnut hole eliminating - and premiums to come down.

He is unable to work so this benefit is his means of survival so it is a big deal to those of us who are on a meager amount to begin with.

PeteKent said...

Thanks, Lidian&AMP! Happy to put a smile on yer face!

But this is serious. These old folk just gotta shut up, move on let the new emerging non-white majority have its day!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Tepper:

Thes eold folks live on Cat Food. How on earth are the "shills" for the insurance industry?

Please stop blaming the elderly and everyone else for the fact that Obama is sucking at being President!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Funny how this is the first I am hearing that there will be no increase in Social Security this year. I guess NBC thought that bit of publicity might hurt the President of the People!

Obama sux (he's a phony) and more and more people hate him.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Mule Rider said...

For starters, it's true that the Social Security benefits will not increase for 2010, but neither will they decrease. And, given that the year-against consumer price index dropped, maintaining the same benefit levels actually has the net effect of a raise in real terms. And yet, we hear complaints that there won't be an increase.

@Tom Schaller

Why don't you do just a wee bit of research you blundering idiot?!

http://www.kare11.com/news/national/national_article.aspx?storyid=822843&catid=18


Millions of older people face shrinking Social Security checks next year, the first time in a generation that payments would not rise.

The trustees who oversee Social Security are projecting there won't be a cost of living adjustment (COLA) for the next two years. That hasn't happened since automatic increases were adopted in 1975.

By law, Social Security benefits cannot go down. Nevertheless, monthly payments would drop for millions of people in the Medicare prescription drug program because the premiums, which often are deducted from Social Security payments, are scheduled to go up slightly.

"I will promise you, they count on that COLA," said Barbara Kennelly, a former Democratic congresswoman from Connecticut who now heads the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare. "To some people, it might not be a big deal. But to seniors, especially with their health care costs, it is a big deal."

Cost of living adjustments are pegged to inflation, which has been negative this year, largely because energy prices are below 2008 levels.

Advocates say older people still face higher prices because they spend a disproportionate amount of their income on health care, where costs rise faster than inflation. Many also have suffered from declining home values and shrinking stock portfolios just as they are relying on those assets for income.

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codeguyj said...

The older an American is, the more likely he is to be scared of socialism. It won't always be that way, but it is right now because the older people grew up with the Cold War.

I'm 34 and I barely remember the Cold War. I remember it providing bad guys for spy movies and I remember when we were regularly talking about how Gorbachev was making things better. People younger than me don't even remember that much.

But to a senior citizen, "socialism" = "evil empire". So when the anti health insurance reform forces start yelling about socialism, it doesn't seem like a big threat to some people but it does to others.

Rudy said...

Indeed, there is racism in the protests. Those pesky white elderly people, who on average live longer than black people, dare to think they should be exempt from government encouraging their quicker demise.

It is unfair that those old white women be able to live longer at government expense, and the playing field needs to be leveled.

Walker said...

The current denigration of senior citizens by Democratic party operatives stands only next to the carte blanche labeling of town hall attendees as 'brownshirts' and 'Nazis' as the single dumbest political move of the past year.

Goodbye swing districts, Dems, no matter what you do.

PeteKent said...

The Seniors had better shut up: that Cola money is needed to pay for ACORN -- y'all realize they got BILLIONS in stimulus money!

Just one more bit of evidence on why Obama is sucky President.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Juris said...

Nice article, Tom. Implicit in your comment is that idea that to some people the COLA has the same psychological elements as a "raise." Regardless of the true cost of living change, it's a relief and something of a reward for surviving another year substantially based on fixed income.

Living on fixed income means that people are very dependent on and sensitive to changes in economic conditions. The uncertainty alone from this -- and people's limited ability to meet unexpected disasters -- creates fear.

That fear can readily be stoked if people perceive that others are literally making out like bandits. Keep in mind that social security income is also taxed. So if it appears that the Madoffs and other lesser goniffs are stealing from people and the public treasury (or that the government is failing to prevent them from doing so), you have a class (age group) that is both dependent, fearful and angry.

I can't avoid taking a quote totally out of context from Barrington Moore's "Social Origins of Dictatorships and Democracy." Moore asked, "Just what does modernization mean for the peasantry other than the fact that sooner or later they get screwed?" I think that's what people living on fixed income feel. They don't LIKE being on fixed income, but they fear that sooner or later they're going to get screwed by the system. And losing a little thing like a "raise" each year reinforces that sense.

jriney said...

For the love of god, what is so awful about 'socialism'? Even left wingers are feeding into this treatment of the word like it's poison; leftover from McCarthyism I suppose; it seems risky to even suggest it's not that bad of a thing.

GbThrone said...

At the risk of sounding like I'm making an ad hominem attack (and sounding a bit like Mule Rider), how old are you, Mr. Shaller?
Some of the numbers cited in the post do not make a lot of sense.
The "average" Medicare payments for a 44 year working life work out to an average annual income ov over $70,000. I recall in the mid-1960's $20,000 a year was considered way up there, income-wise. Also, does the Medicare premium payment amount cited
include the employer portion? In short, this sort of "whiny old b******s should just shut up and go away" commentary is exactly what causes older people to get ticked off.

Walker said...

I loved that "No Drama Obama" had Attorney General Holder announce yesterday the appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate alleged CIA interrogation abuses.

When a left-wing president is reduced to transparent politicized toss-offs to appease his left-wing base and re-direct attention away from a stalled agenda you know he's entered CarterVille.

Now he risks being rhetorically eviscerated, again, by the Cheneys over the next few news cycles.

Even Carville thinks this is a bad idea.

Governing sure is harder than voting present...

Sean said...

PeteKent said...
Overheard in a nursing home, "Listen, bitch: Shut up and die -- us black folk are tired of payin for whitey health care!"

"And don't give me this 'socialist' crap! That's code for 'coon' around heah!"

"Now where did I leave mah Food Stamps???"


So, Tom's post citing empirical evidence for disparities in the system is "race-baiting," but the Stepin Fetchit routine you dreamed up in your over-heated little brain is the product of a "nuanced" mind at work? This pretty well sums up why people like you can't be effective in a real debate and have to resort to the weak-minded bullying tactics to get what you want.

It's soulless demagogues like you and Palin and Glen Beck who enabled Obama to get elected in the first place. It's only by contrast with the likes of you, that he manages to come off as a saint and a genius to fair-minded folks. If you guys ever want to get back into power, you all might try a little harder not to make Obama into a super-martyr (symbolically or otherwise). But hey, that would take nuanced critical-thinking skills. Sorry I mentioned it.

PeteKent said...

If Obama cannot redistribute wealth, he will redistribute death.

The shorter life expectancy of black folk is surely some sort of conspiracy on the part of 'whitey'. Reference Obama thesis.

petekent01 (on twitter)

BlueRevolution said...

PeteKent,

It's hard to argue with demographic trends, Pete. It's also not hard to figure out who's coming here from the rest of the world (most of them legally) and who is receiving old-age benefits.

You are also quite wrong about why white people of color vote for the diffferent parties. Those almost-Klan rallies passing for 2008 McCain-Palin rallies would turn off (and DID turn off) most non-white people. The underlying theme for those rallies is the same the 'tea-bagger revolt' and the so-called 'health care debate'---a call to arms for America's 200 million or so European-Americans to wake up and "take their country back". From who? Presumably, that 30 percent of residents who don't really 'belong' here and should apparently shut up and not run for president.

"Take your country back"? White people never lost it. That mentality emanates from a horrible point of view, that this country was not founded so that rights and equality for all might someday be expanded, but from an opinion many in 1789 had (and apparently some still have today) that non-Europeans and their descendants should never dare hope for equal treatment or equal status.

In case anyone has ever bothered to count, the first generation born in America in an environment where discrimination was made illegal and unconstitutional IS STILL ALIVE. The oldest of them turn 45 this year.

No one in that group is in a position nor desires to 'take' anything from anyone.

Mark said...

@ Walker. I'll take the bait.

The interrogation tactics and techniques could very well have included war crimes. If the US is to remain a world power it must do so with more than military might. It must also play on the side of the moral good. That includes (among other things) taking responsibility for past actions and providing justice where justice should be served.

Keep in mind I am not suggesting that they should definitely prosecute and convict anyone. I am suggesting that if there is ample and compelling evidence there should be equally ample and compelling justice. That's a hell of a deal compared to what a lot of people get from the justice system.

Sean said...

Walker said...
When a left-wing president is reduced to transparent politicized toss-offs to appease his left-wing base and re-direct attention away from a stalled agenda you know he's entered CarterVille.


So investigating the CIA for trying to turn America into a torture-state is transparently political, but Karl Rove's shop actually systematically encouraging U.S. Attorneys to target Democrats running for office is hunky dory with you?

I'd rather live in Carterville than Orwell's 1984. Why are concepts like fairness, justice and equality under the law so foreign to the modern Republican party? Do you ever even think about what made America a decent country in the first place? It sure wasn't your Texas Ranger revenge fantasies, Walker.

PeteKent said...

Sean,

Blogging is meant to be polemical and to arouse. Shaller's poorly reasoned and racist attack on selfish white seniors who refuse to be grateful to the government that keeps them alive, inspired in me a fantastical polar reaction that was meant to expose the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the post that is now the subject of the instant commentary.

Besides that I take great pleasure in rubbing your noses in how soundly the public rejects the Liberal Agenda and how much Obama really sucks. He is a fraud, a creation of the media, perhaps not even Constitutionally eligible to be President. You will forgive me if I jeer at the bandwagon!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

BlueRevolution:

Total strawman argument, right outta the Obama playbook.

You suck as much as Obama!

Its jerks like you that have created the racial polarization. I'd vote for Condleeza Rice if she ran against Al Gore. Heck, I'd go door to door for her!

You are a hack and fool.

Just the same white people are going to tire of this and many less nucanced thinkers than I will decide it is to time to take the country back from Obama, Rahn Emmanuel, David Axelrod, Pelosi, Reid, etc. I'll applaud them!

petekent01 (on twitter)

rej4sl said...

the comments on here and other websites make me smile when they call Obama Socialist or Left. Obama is Center Right as are 99% of all members of congress and that is being conservative. There is nothing wrong with being on the left or being a socialist but you see very little evidence of any of our politicians being there. It is just used as a phony scare word by people who should know better.

rej4sl said...

above meant to read 99% of Congress is Right or Center Right.

Ed said...

PeteKent, I am very impressed. Every one of your comments have managed to offend me. Truly the mark of 'thinking' person. Please pardon the sarcasm.

Mark said...

The racial allegations thrown around in the post are less than necessary.

The demographic and tax policy trends do suggest that there are disparities in social security and medicare benefits. No one can argue with that unless they have alternate facts, or find fault (e.g. from an untrustworthy source) with the facts you presented.

The part where the racist charge feels a bit weak is when the demographic trends (which most people are not aware of) are connected to arguments at town hall meetings. In the post it appears that this connection then provides evidence for racism.

It's not that some of the older people (and younger and everywhere in between) at these rallies aren't racist. It may be that most of them are (wouldn't that be a great representative sample to get?). I would argue that the cries that ring of nativism are likely racist and of the worst kind.

However, just because one argues against big government while receiving benefits from the government. And just because these benefits are paid for by a huge swath of people--some of them members of minority ethnic groups--does not indicate that they are racist. I think branding people or a group of people as racist should be taken a bit more seriously (by everyone).

To be clear I think documenting the demographic trends and thus the (likely unintentional) logical inconsistencies of the arguments at town halls is important and interesting. I just think that implications and subtle allegations of racism need to be held back. They do not help anything.

(If people at the town halls are being bought and paid for, then this whole argument is null. In fact it would be the orchestrators that would receive the allegations of racism. In that case, it might well be deserved.)

Also, PeteKent, don't take this as evidence that I support your position. I don't care if you are from the right or the left, human decency should be a common theme in public discourse.

PeteKent said...

I really think this CIA torture investigation thing is Exhibit A in how bad Obama sucks at being President.

First off, most Americans don't care. Rip the mothas heads off! They bombed us with planes and killed thousands of innocents. If a few threats, catepillars and simulated drowning were what it took to keep us safe, then fine.

Second, Obama has said repeatedly he wants to put the past behind us, so WTF? Can't he control hios own government?

Third, Doesn't Obama need to keep us focussed on healtcare reform? LOL This should be a big distraction!

Obama is a sucky President. But he sure know how to live the High Life!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Ed,

I am sure you are a dishonest asshole, so I have accomlished my goal!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Mark,

I am glad my inflamatory rhetoric brought you out of your shell. Thanks for your perspective.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Billy Jack said...

As a productive member of society, as a member of the productive peoples' Republican Party, doesn't Pete Kent have to get back to work?

Not to mention, Pete Kent in 2009, and "Pete Kents" for the past 73 years, have been trying to kill Social Security.

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

American Enterprise Institute scholar Andrew Biggs makes a powerful point when he calculates that "a typical person who was born in 1944, began work at age 21 in 1965, and in 2009 retired at age 65 and enrolled in Medicare," and who then draws the typical benefit until death at age 83, will have paid roughly $64,971 in Medicare payroll taxes during his/her lifetime but received around $173,886, for a net of "$108,915 more in benefits than he paid in taxes over his lifetime." Hey, that sounds like socialist-style redistribution to me!

Redistribution from our generation to theirs.

However, this redistributionist ponzi scheme where the next generation pays for more benefits than the previous generation paid in taxes will come to a screeching halt by the time us folks following the boomers are eligible to receive SS and Medicare because both programs will be bankrupt as the following generation is not large enough to maintain the redistribution.

PeteKent said...

BTW how is it "racist" for a senior to oppose having healtcare reform be paid for by $500 Billion in cuts from Medicare? That's a lot of plugs being pulled!

These old folks are not so dumb.

petekent01 (on twitter)

BlueRevolution said...

Pete's latest rant bubbles up from the depths of the Palin 2012 handbook and proves why that lot doesn't deserve to be in power.

Pete, Tom has a point. And regardless of what happens to Obama in 2012, the demographics are what they are. Sometime around 2005, for example, the number of live births in California permanently passed the point of more than 50 percent Hispanic. It is a sign that before the year 2100 that state will almost certainly be majority Latino by the end of the century. Texas is headed the same way. New Mexico is already there.

Is California a horrible place to live now because of that fact? No, its recent fiscal problems are more indicative of a failure of political leadership than anything else. And yet, in spite of that, the rest of America and the world still continues to move there.

Here is why your party is bankrupt, Pete: your movement's refusal to find a way to harness human potential in a non-racial way, conservative-style, instead of launching these poor, frightened white seniors as rhetorical right-wing missiles in the health-care debate. It serves no one and drives white moderates away from the GOP in droves.

PeteKent said...

Obama thought he could cut Seniors Social Security and decimate their Medicare and these old folks would just take it.

When they object, he and his minions call them names and claim they are shills for special interests (all of which he simultaneously supports his plan!).

Further evidence of poor leadership and why Obama sucks at being President.

petekent01 (on twitter)

bettywarn said...

Not all seniors are angry and not all crazies are seniors. As a 65 year old receiving social security, I am FOR Obama's plan, FOR the private option and FOR the no-COLA this year. Social Security was actually passed by middle-aged children who didn't want to have to support their elderly parents, and Social Security is helping seniors to provide record-breaking amounts of money to their children in terms of direct payments, inheritances, etc. So the intergenerational transfer is not all one-way by any means.

Juris said...

@Bart: Poor Andrew. Only tells part of the story. The typical person born in 1944 reaches Medicare age in 2009 but doesn't retire at age 65. Even formal retirement age for that cohort is 66. And as long as that person is earning wages, that person is contributing both to Medicare and Social Security. That's my cohort, and I'm still contributing to both those programs through withholdings from my salary, but not yet receiving Medicare. People don't stop contributing to those programs as they move beyond retirement age.

But more to the point, any time a program like that is started, there are going to be a lot of people who receive the benefit who didn't contribute their whole lifetimes.

The larger problem with the funding of both of those programs is that those whose incomes are not from wages (i.e., who earn capital gains from investments, savings, and property, or who have an inheritance) aren't paying into the system or the bulk of their incomes are exempt from the taxes.

Fix that problem and both Medicare and SS become solvent for the indefinite future -- IF there is a program in place to limit the rate of growth in medical costs.

Vicky said...

The author is focusing entirely on senior citizens. I don't know about everyone else, but I hope to make it to old age myself someday, and I certainly don't want to be denied healthcare just because I'm over 60. So here's to all the other 20-somethings who also oppose this plan.

marc said...

You forget the undocumented workers who contribute to social security and medicare but will never get the benefits. As I remember this comes to about 500 billion a year.

PeteKent said...

Absolutely, Vicky.

None of us want to have to stand before one of Obama's Death Panel's and beg to be allowed to live.

Remember it is Rahm Emmanuel's bro who is advising the President to limit healtcare for the less productive, starting with people with dementia.

This is very real -- even if its not in the Bill per se, its what all those "panel" and "commissions" are for. It will be in the regulations.

Obama = Mengele

Godwin's Law was invented by nazi sympathizers

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...
This post has been removed by the author.
garyamort said...

I find this article offensive.

First off, you seem to be dismissive of the very real problem facing MANY on social security - that all the costs THEY pay are going up[food, electricity, medical] yet their social security payment may not go up next year to cover part of the increase.

You seem to want to punish ALL of the elderly because SOME of them are complaining about "socialism".

Secondly, you seem to go to great lengths trying to "prove" their benefits are getting more then they gave - but it's impossible to judge their contribution to this country and society based merely on their financial contributions - they helped build this great nation and as such, they deserve this nations aid in their elder years.

Thirdly, you seem to be grabbing isolated comments and trying to "prove" their complaints are based on racism. In all honesty, their complaints seem to be based on ignorance and fearmongering by other parties to me. But trying to throw lots of insults at them only pours gas on the flame - and considering our energy problems that's a waste of good gasoline!

In general, I like 538 because it is left of center but provides partisan neutral analysis of the actual numbers. Lately, 538 seems to be tilting further left - and while I agree with the politics that's not why I come here. 538 has gone from a daily read for me, to a 4-5 day a week check.

Richard said...

I wonder if PeteKent actually believes himself, or is just trying to be a jackass. I mean, now that the government told him what God to worship, who it's right to have sex with, monitors his phone calls for dangerous behavior, has allowed the police to bust down his door whenever they please, and has locked up everyone brown they've captured in Iraq and Afghanistan indefinitely, Pete finally feels safe enough to concentrate on government interference that actually bothers him, like trying to help people to get health care.

Unfortunately, Pete misses most of the facts by a large margin, but that didn't get in the way of his support of all those other government intrusions. Now that he's identified the real threat of tyranny, specifically healthcare reform, he won't let anything like facts prevent him from destroying that threat to our liberty.

Duncan said...

Regardless of the math of the social security rise there is a real political problem in zero increases. We had that in the UK a few years ago - the formula that was used to increase public pensions resulted in a rise of a few pence. The result was absolutely terrible headlines...

However, I'm not sure that pensioners are a special case on this. Many people are in a wage freeze that is being justified because of apparently low inflation. But the reality is that inflation numbers are estimates that don't fit perfectly to anyone.

Nathan Z said...

I know it's hard to live on a fixed income and face the challenges the elderly face today. If any of us could be more financially comfortable I wish it could be senior citizens.

That being said, no one is doing well these days. People are laid off and can't find work. People are being forced to take unpaid time off. People are being asked to take pay cuts or simply not getting their own cost of living raise.

It makes it very hard to be sympathetic to the hecklers disrupting honest discussion on this topic. We need to work together, talk it out, and find a solution to ALL of our problems. Healthy discusson on healthcare is critical to this end. The hecklers merely distract us from getting something accomplished.

PeteKent said...

538 has become an organ of the Howard Dean Wing of the Democratic Party. As such it has left planet earth.

I wonder if Dean thinks like I do that Obama sucks at being President?

When healtcare reform fails, Afghanistan continues to grind up American lives for no ostensible purpose, Iraq becomes a client state of Iran, and millions are jobless and wanting more work, will Obama be more vulnerable from attack from the Left or the Right?

Jimmy Carter redux?

Who is the new Ronald Reagan? Once the GOP resolves its leadership issues, Obama and the Dems are toast and will be cast back into Gehenna to wail and gnash their teeth.

petekent01 (on twitter)

BlueRevolution said...

@ Vicky:

Here's what I don't get. So many people are afraid of the mythical 'death panels' in the proposed legislation but they deny to themselves and to others one terrible fact: that the health insurance companies deny coverage to people of all ages, every day. The death panels DO exist, but in the offices of Kaiser Permanente and United Health Care(UHC). I hope for your sake, Vicky, that in the next 50 years you never get sick, EVER, because once you have a pre-existing condition, you are SCREWED. Look it up. Once you get sick, you are likely to get dropped, cancelled, have a big spike in your premiums, reach your lifetime limit or be required to cough up a bigger co-pay. Just a few days ago, UHC pressured the Senate Finance Committee to raise the limit on what people have to pay for the cost of their bills to 35% of the total. Translated: you pay a LOT more. In this economy? Yeah, right.

And too bad for you, Vicky. The CEO of United Health, among others, has made a few hundred million dollars in 'salary' off of yours and others' premiums, and when you need insurance, you might well be one of those scared seniors at a town hall in 2044.

Good luck with that.

TIWolfman said...

This is probably the best example of an article that started strong, based on facts/numbers, but ended up in a bigoted, unsupportable claim.

There's so much to actually discuss here and somehow Tom turns it to the unrelated issue of racism. The case was made about generational issues before it was forced in a different direction. The irony being though that many(I'd even say an overwhelming majority) of that younger generation getting taken advantage of sincerely don't see race as a distenguishing mark - for those over ~35 unless you're living in the South it's time to recognize that the next generation doesn't even notice race(it's not an asset or a liability and those still trying to "adjust" for it are equally as wrong and annoying as those that claim it's still a "disadvantage").

clarkejeffrey said...

I really think a lot of this has to do with generational experiences. Actually, the different generational experiences are a good topic for analysis that 538 has just scratched the surface on.

Today's senior was alive and conscious for WW2 and came of age during the heart of the cold war. They learned growing up that being a commie was the worst possible thing that anybody could be. Hence they were trained to really hate anything that smells (even faintly) of socialism.

For people like myself, that grew up after the red threat had largely passed and were still fairly young when the wall came down, the charge doesn't have nearly the same resonance.

Its sort of the same way, that boomers now fret that any military action will grow into "another Vietnam". All history is important but people remember the history from their own coming of age more and weight it much more heavily.

So if you are expected today's 50 year olds to behave like today's 70 year olds 20 years from now, you are making a major miscalculation.

phillychuck said...

Have you corrected all figures for inflation or for implicit return on the foregone income from the SS payments (say via Treasury Bond rates)?

PeteKent said...

Obama Sucks
Blue Revolution,
I think the difference (which Vicki understands) is that the people are more fearful of a monolithic, all powerful government (you know the one with all the tanks and guns) making personal life and death decisions for them than privately owned insurance companies.

Could that be a commentary on how little the people think of their government? Or better put how much confidence the People have in their own judgment as opposed to that dictated by a bureaucracy subject to no discipline but the imperfect one of the Ballot Box.

I think we have the balance about right: Healthcare must be in private hands, regulated, but not controlled or owned by the Government. The present system more than anything else needs to be made more competitive.

Insurance companies seek to attract customers by providing attractive benefits and the government steps in to discipline them when they misbehave. But it does not need to take them over.

The American experience with government control in general has been a mixed bag. We have intervened a good deal less than other developed nations and have for the most part had a better economy, standard of living and sense of popular satisfaction than the rest of the world, including the social democracies of Europe.

Our best success has come in national security. Our defense and security apparatus is the best in the world and entered the present Century as the lone Superpower, but at a cross roads. One can claim that it was Bush who squandered our advantage with his adventures into Iraq. But now Obama has been handed the ball and the test of his mettle will be how well he manages the cards he was dealt. Interesting new intelligence suggests that Iraq is destined to devolve into a satellite of Iran, largely because of the power vacuum from the US, Obama being unwilling to show interest in this “poltical hotbed”.

Because of our President’s general timidity in foreign affairs, coupled with a governance style that places him as ARBITER of American interest rather than as its PROTECTOR, Obama seems willing to cast aside our security advantage (including our economic dominance through sound Treasury and Currency Management) and is choosing to lead us down a road of government intervention that the European experiment of the 60s and 70s proved did not work and as to which our European allies are now in the process of casting off.

WHY SHOULD WE WISH TO WEAR THE CAST OFF RAGS OF EUROPE?

It's seems like folly.

This Obama really sucks at being President.

Ya gotta wonder, what his game is? You know the man got game!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Patrick said...

PK,

"Non-whites vote in lockstep for the Democrats, while white people (being more nuanced thinkers) tend to split their votes between the parties."

Woah! You'd think someone with such a nimble mind would be a bit more discrete with their racial stereotyping.

BlueRevolution said...

Oh, Pete,

You make the case for United Health Care almost better than those fake, sugary commercials they churn out monthly. But whatever some may think the government might do as a result of reform is not as bad as what the health care insurance industry does to people NOW...everyday.

And since government corruption seems to bother you so much, where were you when such corruption resulted in REAL death? And lots of it? Blackwater, KBR, I could go on, but---oh, I forgot---when conservatives' corruption actually kills people, particularly foreigners, you don't shed a tear.

Walker said...

INT. OVAL OFFICE - AFTERNOON

sitting at his desk, President Obama is fiddling with his fantasy football picks. A mound of paperwork is piled next to him in two stacks, THINGS THAT SUCK and THINGS THAT REALLY SUCK. He is languidly smoking a Kool cigarette and taps the ash into an pewter tray shaped like Sarah Palin's gaping maw. There is a knock on the door and Obama quickly stabs out his Kool.

Obama: Yeah, come on in!

A tall, distinguished man in his mid 50's steps into the office. It is Attorny General Eric Holder.

Holder: You rang, boss?

Obama: I did. I did. Have a seat.

Holder kicks back on one of the sofas. Obama joins him. He is still holding his fantasy picks.

Obama: Hey, are you going for Brees for your first QB pick?

Holder: Naw, man, I live on the edge. I am going with Manning the Younger. You called me here for fantasy chat?

Obama: Well no....

Holder: Spit it out. You know I got your back.

Obama: It's just this whole presidency thing. I didn't know it would be this hard.

Holder: Tell me about it.

Obama (wiping away a tear): It's a lot harder than voting present.

Holder: Well, it's time to get on the stick. You have a plan? No more excuses.

Obama: I need a distraction. Something juicy and partisan that will get people to stop talking about...well, everything I want to do...

Holder: A distraction, huh? Well, I have some ideas...

Obama: Do you, Eric? Do you? Don't play with me now...

Holder: Well, I could... rhetorically speaking...sort of, ah...pinch off a huge nasty steamer loaf right in the middle of the political debate next week for you? Would that be a distraction enough for ya?

Obama: You mean the whole "Let's Investigate the Prior Administration Even Though I Officially Say That I Want to Move Beyond That" Plan??

Hodler: The very same.

Obama: Get on it, then...unofficially, of course, as you are...umm...what's the word?

Holder: Independent?

Obama: Yes, independent.

The president and the attorney general share a laugh.

Patrick said...

petekent

I noticed that your twitter page identifies you as petekent "from 538.com" If you hate this blog, or at least the people who write for it, so much, why are you hitching your internet star to it's name? Surely your 37 followers are more avid readers of Townhall or WorldNetDaily or some such. I'd imagine you'd be able to attract more of an audience from those places than from posting on here, where, aside from you and Walker and Mule Rider, everyone seems pretty liberal and/or outcomes-oriented.

TIWolfman said...

Whoa Patrick, I'll agree that PeteKent is a nuisance and troll but you crossed the line when implicitly stated he's not outcome-oriented. We generally may not agree with him, and especially his tactics, but to say he's not outcome-oriented is completely inaccurate.

Also, if this is, as you state, a place where "everyone seems pretty liberal.." then let it be positioned as such. There's a lot of people around here that fall into that category but will try to claim to their deathbed that this is a neutral site encouraging all viewpoints...

PeteKent said...

Patrick,

"Nimble mind"? Me? I am not sure how to take that! It's certainly a different take on my cerebellum!

That said, I debated writing the line the way I did, but because I a polemicist and I wish to inspire debate and don't mind throwing a virtual firebomb to do so, I went a head and threw some meat to the lions.

Better to watch them consume the Christians!

I like to draw out the race baiters. They do themselves such a disservice that it serves my pupose fine.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Edward said...

BlueRevolution +1

PeteKent and several other posters here make it abundantly clear what the allegations of "Socialism", even "National Socialism" mean.

OMG! He's BLACK!!!!!

And therefore the "Government" (= Blacks and other minorities, plus illegal immigrants) is about to take over "everything that makes America great" (for White Supremacists) and destroy "Our Country". (The US of the early 1950s, when Jim Crow was still the law, gays were firmly in the closet, and abortion was illegal. Even contraception in some states.)

Of course they want Their Country back, and will say anything to get it. We must also beware of that tiny minority of possible domestic terrorists who will _do_ anything to get it, like the murderer of abortion doctor George Tiller.

See also http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Code_Words

PeteKent said...

Blue Rev,

Nothing could be worse than government control. the fox will be guarding the henhouse. This isnt just about corruption, it is about ineffciency.

petekent01 (on twitter)

TIWolfman said...

Holy Moly Edward. If I didn't think better of it I'd suggest you're a DNC plant to incite people. You're taking gigantic, unfounded leaps and you somehow worked in the abortion issue with no previous mention or even suggestion. To this point PeteKent has been the most unfounded troll but in this post alone you've achieved an equal level of irresponsibility.

Pan said...

GayIthacan said...
Except - for many of us who rely on disability or SSA payments, LITTLE OR NO PORTION OF OUR MONTHLY EXPENSES ARE IMPACTED BY 'ENERGY'.

I've seen this posted elsewhere before and every time I have to scratch my head at the shortsightedness. Where do you think all those products you buy come from? How do you think all those services you use are generated?

Energy prices impact EVERYTHING.

How did the food you're buying get harvested and delivered to your grocery store? How does your milk stay at a chilly temperature while waiting for you to come pick it up? How does your phone work? Your cable/satellite service?

Sure, it's not the only factor. But to so blithely dismiss it is incredibly ignorant.

MrHill said...

I've been an exceptionally long time lurker here, and I just created an account to give props to Mark. Well said.

PeteKent said...

Patrick,

I love posting here. Why preach to the choir and I find it the most technically comfortable blog I visit.

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Edward,

When you try to equate cries of "Socialism!" with "Nigger!", then you, sir, sound as daft as the Birthers.

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

PS I was only paraphasing Carolyn Maloney!

petekent01 (on twitter)

stumbletown said...

Peter Kent, reinforcing my stereotype about twitter users.

George said...

This was a disappointment and below your usual standard. The example you chose demonstrating $108,915 benefit versus the $64,971 distorts the reality of the program. The persons who die at 65 or earlier receive no benefits and their money is distributed to other beneficiaries. The issue is much more complex than what you suggest.

Nick said...

This article is fantastic -- firmly and happily seconded and reblogged.

In the current system, my mother, who is eminently lovable and hard-working but certainly doesn't work any harder than I do, gets pretty good coverage for physical therapy for her third hip replacement. I pay cash for flu shots. Mike who comes by and roots through my building's dumpster for recyclables (and who works harder than the rest of us, outside in the sun) doesn't even know that he's schizophrenic or that it's treatable. He's never even been diagnosed.

More and more, I see the most threatening fantasy of the Obama administration to be the fantasy of a post-racial society. The vitriol in the comments underlines that, to me -- white America voted for Barack Obama because he was the best candidate, not to expiate our guilt or excuse our lion's share of the nation's wealth and resources.

If you want to talk back to me, come read more at publicoption.blogspot.com.

esong_98 said...

Obama is slipping into the progressive tendency of arguing with facts and figures. You can argue for universal health care with all of the facts and figures in your favor, but your argument will be completely undone when someone screams out "Socialism."

The Right knows that people don't think in terms of facts and figures. They create narratives and develop a conservative terminology where one word can undo a progressive's 10 minute factual policy argument.

Mule Rider said...

Edward said...

[mindless rant with no basis in reality]




Go away, sir. Just go away. You are sick and disgusting and are not welcome in polite society.

Gary said...

I'm a senior and find who is collecting SSA and also on Medicare and I support a public insurance option...BTW I also have a secondary insurance policy as a result of my employment/retirement...so, I am set...I also have a privately purchased long-term care policy...and I find the damn complaining and crap at the town hall meetings by all of them, seniors and otherwise an example of the "me" generation gone wild...as well as some of the stuff posted here...oh, BTW, I am also white a native southerner and a male...oops, but I never, ever owned a gun...but heck I love NASCAR...all of this is to say that we are undoubtedly the most selfish bunch of folks on the planet...if I have to hear about one more poor Canadian dying, when untold numbers of dear old Americans also die each year due to the lack of adequate health insurance, oh and lets note forget the rate of bankruptcy due to either lack or inadequate health insurance...well, I will puke...the stupidity of the so-called opponents for health care insurance reform is quite amazing...and to be fair...I am also frustrated that President Obama seems unable to get control of this issue...'nuff said.

andybard said...

First, I would like to say to FiveThirtyEight.com that I believe the comments on this site should be moderated. My reason for saying this is that FiveThirtyEight is a class act, with much brilliant analysis done with integrity, whereas a not-trivial portion of the comments exemplify the degradation to public discourse and should not be permitted to degrade this forum.

A second point, which I'll make in the form of a question (and which I hope has not already been brought up-- I could not compel myself to continue reading the comments past a certain point, well down the list):

When you compute that gap between what people paid into the system and what they're taking out, did you simply leave the tax amounts paid as they were or did you correct them for a) inflation, and b) a reasonable rate of return had they been invested in a conservative vehicle?

If a worker pays $1000 in during the 1950s, for example, that $1000 should not count as just $1000 in today's retiree benefits: in constant dollars, it's probably about $7000 by now (just my estimate); and if invested in treasury notes with, say, a 2 percent a year real rate of return, it would be worth a good deal more than the $7000 by now, considering the compounding.

So did you take these factors into account?

andybard

Patrick said...

TIWolfman,

Well by "outcomes-oriented" I mean someone who is less interested in defending their own or attacking other people's ideology than they are in identifying solutions to problems which result in the best outcomes for the most number of people.

As a self-identified "polemicist" who enjoys "lobbing firebombs", i think we can safely say that Pete is not very outcomes-oriented.

And Pete,

firebombs are the weapons of terrorists, whether virtual or no. They only serve to destroy whatever conversation is taking place. You are not stimulating, you are disrupting.

I, for one, enjoy debating politics with people who disagree with me, as I'm sure many folks here do, but you, my friend, are simply no fun.

How can you possibly expect people to want to debate anything with you in the room, when they know you're just going to chime in with "Obama sucks" or "you liberals are all alike". And yes, other, liberal, commentors certainly respond to you in kind, and they shouldn't, but that doesn't make any of it any more palatable or any less boring for the rest of us.

And do you honestly think that saying that "people of color are less nuanced thinkers than white people" is any way provocative or funny?

There is much to lampoon about the liberal establishment, and you have every right to be humorous and unorthodox in your posts. But if you really believe in the legitimacy of your arguments, then don't give people a reason to reject them flat-out by couching them in offensive or annoying language.

In short, you are putting a damper on the conversation here. As many times as you are able to raise the hackles of some of the more rabidly liberal people on here, you probably more often serve to discourage the less partisan readers from contributing to the conversation at all.

It's a free country, and you can do what you'd like. But just so you know, I have grown to dread seeing your name in the comments section and I more often than not skip over your posts. If everyone else on here does the same thing I do, then you are influencing the conversation only in that most people try to avoid involving you at all.

wavydavy said...

PeteKent --

Do you practice to be this stupid and obnoxious, or does it just come naturally to you?

Oh, one more question -- have you ever considered getting a life? Or would Mommy be upset if you moved out of her basement?

You are an ENORMOUS waste of bandwidth.

Nosimplehiway said...

You know how sometimes you go out with friends (I don't drink, so I always wind being designated driver.) and people get to drinking, and that little part of the brain that normally filters what we say just stops working? And guys who are the best of friends can blurt out the worst possible things ( eg "Dude, I slept with your wife in college", "I really hate your family. They are soooo obnoxious!" or "You are the least skilled person at work! How did you even get hired?")

Know how the next day everyone just kind of avoids what was said? But once it's out there, it's out there. Everyone knows it wasn't a lie or a joke; it was Honesty. The sort of Honesty that can only be learned when our guards are down and we express ourselves without filters. But it's polite to ignore that sort of Honesty, like a fart no one will claim.

That's what Pete Kent's postings are like, the unfiltered spouting of the American right wing. Specifically in this thread, I find PK's assertion that white people are more nuanced thinkers than non-whites perniciously, cruelly and stupidly racist.

When PK mouths off like this, he's speaking for every conservative on this board, whether they like it or not. And for that matter, for every American conservative everywhere. Casual readers who are undecided voters and moderate independents will read his racist rantings and think they are the opinion of the GOP as a whole. Is that what Republicans here want?

Now, I'm not going to engage PK at all; he wouldn't listen to me anyway. But when conservatives don't call him on this kind of vitriol themselves, they're saying that his hateful stereotypes are what they themselves believe, but their filters prevented them from actually saying it. When conservatives here who are actual sane, grown-ups (Looking at you, Bart de Palma.) don't say anything about PK's racist rantings, they are expressing tacit approval for and agreement with his comments.

In short, are any conservatives here willing to tell him, for the good of the conservative cause, to shut the hell up?

Kimota94 aka Matt aka AgileMan said...

What this great site really needs, I realize as I read through the comments here, is a new feature that allows each reader to provide their own filter lists, by commenter. I mentally filter out every comment written by this site's most annoying troll, but it would be so much nicer if his nonsensical diatribe's just didn't show up at all (for my viewing). Freedom of speech, after all, doesn't mean that anyone has to listen to rants.

As for the original blog topic, it's really too bad that Social Security has become what appears to be the main source of income for so many Americans. I'm still more than a decade away from collecting from the Canadian equivalent (Canada Pension Program), but for me (and everyone else I know) that extra cash will be just that: extra. I'm not saying it won't be welcome, but anyone expecting to live off of it will be in for a rude awakening. Thankfully company pensions and RRSPs (Registered Retirement Savings Plans) provide the bulk of what a lot of folks here get by on once they retire.

Having said that, I certainly sympathize with those Americans who are dependent on SS and are upset with no COLA for the next 2 years. They just need to realize that's not Obama's doing... they need to cast blame a little further back in history to find the right culprit.

Dean said...

I won't sugarcoat this letter. This is a very bitter letter. Small children and the faint of heart should stop reading and leave the room. Let me get to the crux of the matter: I plan to put the fear of God into Pete Kent. This is a choice I have made; your choice is up to you. But let me remind you that Pete owns drawers and boxes full of legal documents, which he is convinced prove his position. Now, I could go off on that point alone, but if his attempts to discredit legitimate voices in the blackguardism debate have spurred us to serve on the side of Truth while remaining true to those beliefs, ideals, and aspirations we hold most dear, then Pete may have accomplished a useful thing.

Pete's communications resonate with the deviltry of militarism. How much more illumination does that fact need before Pete can grasp it? Assuming the answer is "a substantial amount", let me point out that Pete's reasoning is circular and therefore invalid. In other words, he always begins an argument with his conclusion (e.g., that the media should "create" news rather than report it) and therefore—not surprisingly—he always arrives at that very conclusion.

Pete alleges that our unalienable rights are merely privileges that he can dole out or retract. Naturally, this is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. He's causing all sorts of problems for us. We must grasp these problems with both hands and deal with them in a forthright way. The real question here is not, "What demons possessed Pete to defend corporatism, cameralism, and notions of racial superiority?". The real question is rather, "What happened to his common sense?" To answer that question, we need first to consider Pete's thought process, which generally takes the following form: (1) Sin is good for the soul, so (2) he is the ultimate authority on what's right and what's wrong. Therefore, (3) everything he says is completely and entirely true and thus, (4) his whinges are Holy Writ. As you can see, Pete's reasoning makes no sense, which leads me to believe that I'm not writing this letter for your entertainment. I'm not even writing it for your education. I'm writing it for our very survival. All in all, I realize that this letter has seemed incredibly bleak. However, expecting the worst from Pete Kent means we will never be disappointed. If we're wrong and he does not try to give an air of scientific impartiality to biased judgments, we'll be relieved. If we're right and he does, we'll be prepared.

shiloh said...

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Again BDP, this is Tom Schaller's post not Nate. One is definitely off your trolling routine, take a break.

Also, PK is 538's wannabe court jester and should be treated as such.

And my old buddy Mule ;) Indeed, Go away, sir. Just go away. You are sick and disgusting and are not welcome in polite society.

btw Mule, when were you ever in polite society lol

carry on

George said...

The analyses of redistribution appear to be inaccurate because they don't take in to account that SS trust funds earn and imputed interest. If you deposit $40,000 over 40 years, you deposits SHOULD earn an equal amount or more in compound interest. The fact that the government does not pay interest is an issue because the trust funds are essentially borrowed to fund other programs that benefit others. It even funds unproductive wars such as the war in Iraq.

garyamort said...

Andybard:

I wondered the same thing, if you follow the link that was posted the math is explained from the article that was quoted.

As I read it, the benefit amount was calculated as:
Average yearly enefits received from the system
- (
average yearly premiums[yes, most seniors pay premiums for medicare just like any other policy]
+
Inflation adjusted payments into the system
)

So inflation adjustment AND premiums were calculated.

I do not believe they included "average rate of return" but then you would also have to consider adding to the benefits received average cost of similar health plans if and add the savings of not having purchased such a plan as a benefit.

Patrick said...

okay. also, gary, andy, george, all this "math" you guys are doing: total snoooze fest. in fact, there is entirely too much math on this blog. period. henceforth, i'd like my statistics served with as little math as possible please... ;)

shiloh said...

Patrick said...

okay. also, gary, andy, george, all this "math" you guys are doing: total snoooze fest. in fact, there is entirely too much math on this blog. period. henceforth, i'd like my statistics served with as little math as possible please... ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Obama beat McCain by 9.5 million votes and he's not up for re-election until Nov. 2012.

Re: U.S. politics, nowadays it's very, very hard to beat an incumbent Senator, which makes 2006 and 2008 all the more impressive for Dems. :) thanx cheney/bush/rummy/condi/gonzo as their legend will last at least as long as Carter's legacy ie just like Reps would never let us forget Carter for the last (30) years, "we" will never let the American voters forget cheney/bush ie Iraq, Afghanistan, Katrina, torture, invasion of privacy, port security, SC justice harriet miers lol, incompetence, corruption, cheney/bush caught w/their pants down on 9/11, scooter libby, turdblossom. Still waiting for the many tell-all books re: cheney/bush. It's only gonna get worse for Reps, if that's possible lol

And yes, re: statistics less is more ie

McCain got 5.5 million more votes than Reagan in 1984.

whereas Obama got (((32 million))) more votes than Mondale in 1984.

Did I mention it's almost impossible to beat an incumbent senator ie as Mike Tyson said, "everyone has a plan until they get hit" w/money, money, money!

carry on

Mule Rider said...

Now, I'm not going to engage PK at all; he wouldn't listen to me anyway. But when conservatives don't call him on this kind of vitriol themselves, they're saying that his hateful stereotypes are what they themselves believe, but their filters prevented them from actually saying it. When conservatives here who are actual sane, grown-ups (Looking at you, Bart de Palma.) don't say anything about PK's racist rantings, they are expressing tacit approval for and agreement with his comments.

In short, are any conservatives here willing to tell him, for the good of the conservative cause, to shut the hell up?


In short, I speak for myself and no one else. I don't condone a lot of the things PeteKent says - including some of the things in this thread - but I do share some of the basal sentiments he uses to launch many of his conservative arguments.

That aside, however, I want to ask you some questions, tough guy.

First of all, WHO ARE YOU to make value judgements on all conservatives because of the thoughts expressed by one of the so-called lot in an obscure portion of the comments section on a progressive blog??

WHO ARE YOU to project those very same thoughts and words onto ALL conservatives as being indicative of all the "hateful stereotypes" we supposedly embrace as conservatives??

And WHO ARE YOU, Nosimplehiway, to demand that we condemn or apologize for PeteKent's "ranting" - or otherwise be condemned ourselves as condoning them with "tacit approval" - when you and several more "passive liberals" just like you on THIS VERY BLOG look on and say nothing while hardened ideological zealots like Cugel, Mike in Maryland, PorridgeGun, beavis, and a few others go to greath lengths to spray us all down with the diarrhea of their own extreme hate, bile, vitriol, disgust, anger, bitterness, venom, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

How is THAT any different than what you demand of us because of PeteKent??

And again, WHO ARE YOU to make such demands??

Let the tables turn then. When I don't see you others condemn the awful rants of people like Cugel, Mike in MD, PorridgeGun, beavis, et al, I'm left with no choice but to believe all of you liberals share those sentiments and are only quietly sitting there nodding their head, giving YOUR "tacit approval" for all of the nastiness and bile they're spraying, and are thus guilty of all the ridiculous stereotypes and parodies that are made about the far left wing of politics. How's that work for ya?!!


So, for the "good of the liberal cause", Nosimplehiway, stand up and shout down these other loudmouths from the left and TELL THEM TO SHUT THE HELL UP or deal with the fact that you'll be lumped in with them EVERY SINGLE TIME.

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

blah, blah, blah
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Mule, take care

Mule Rider said...

shiloh,

In spite of your dig, what I have to say is no trivial rant. It's been demanded of me by Nosimplehiway that I stand against, condemn, and/or apologize for the rantings of PeteKent lest I, or most anyone else that embraces even a smidgen of conservative ideology, be castigated for embracing the same hateful stereotypes that he does.

I merely turn the tables on him/her, as I don't see him/her, or anyone else on the left in this forum, for that matter, condemning the hateful bile of Cugel, Mike in Maryland, PorridgeGun, and beavis.

So why don't you get your head out of your ass, stop trying to harass me, and get to apologizing for the pages and pages of disgusting insults those clowns have hurled over the last year+ here at 538.

shiloh said...

As a rule Mule, I just ignore you and PK, less is more, but if you both continue to set up the ball, I feel compelled to kick it.

And yes, it's almost too easy.

Given your 538 past, watching you try to rationalize anything is totally hilarious.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

take care

Stephen123 said...

Wow. The amount of paid Republican astroturf going on here is impressive.

Mule Rider said...

Wow. The amount of paid Republican astroturf going on here is impressive.

As are the amount of clueless liberal basement-dwellers.

Mule Rider said...

As a rule Mule, I just ignore you and PK, less is more, but if you both continue to set up the ball, I feel compelled to kick it.

Bullshit! You don't even come close to "ignoring" me because you cut/paste 90% of my comments and add your own smart-ass retort. And as far as "setting up the ball for you to kick," you've never come up with anything witty to shout us down...just an endless string of "Bush/Cheneys...", "but, but, buts", "take cares", and "blessings." The Gotcha Meter! doesn't even register. Sorry...

And yes, it's almost too easy.

Yes, cutting/pasting and adding nothing of substance as a reply is, by definition, "too easy."

Given your 538 past, watching you try to rationalize anything is totally hilarious.

You have NEVER rationalized anything. EVER. Just cutting, pasting, "take cares", and "blessings." That's it.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

Yeah, I'm really trying to impress a bunch of far left political junkies whose method of civil political discourse is to bitch and whine about everybody who doesn't embrace their narrow ideological world as a despot, a fascist, a bigot or racist, a war-monger, a religious zealot, a corporatist, or a hypocrite.



Same old tired playbook. Day after day after day....

Bart DePalma said...

Nosimplehiway said...

When conservatives here who are actual sane, grown-ups (Looking at you, Bart de Palma.) don't say anything about PK's racist rantings, they are expressing tacit approval for and agreement with his comments.

I usually post a response to a thread that interests me and then usually only post in response to posts directed at me by simply searching for my name.

Thus, I do not read the vast majority of comments posted unless they are directed at me. I sure do not have the time to "police" other posters.

Sorry.

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

Bullshit!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Mule, please watch that temper. It may get end up consuming you!

take care

Mule Rider said...

Mule, please watch that temper. It may get end up consuming you!

Thanks for your concern! And you might want to watch out for superfluous words like the word "get" in your second sentence. Your blabbering is already hard to understand, and that doesn't make it any easier...

shiloh said...

Mule, just trying to show a little empathy ...

take care

Mule Rider said...

Mule, just trying to show a little empathy ...

Good for you! Unfortunately I, like all other conservatives, am bereft of such a basal instinct and feeling.

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

Mule, just trying to show a little empathy ...

Good for you! Unfortunately I, like all other conservatives, am bereft of such a basal instinct and feeling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The truth will set you free!

take care

Taleri said...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090823/ap_on_go_ot/us_social_security_smaller_checks

The above article states, "The average monthly benefit for retirees is $1,153 this year" and "All beneficiaries received a 5.8 percent increase in January, the largest since 1982." That means that the average monthly SS check is exactly equal to the the average GROSS paycheck of someone working 40 hours a week at a minimum wage job.

What I find interesting is that since the minimum wage went up in July (from $6.55 to $7.25) and the SS check went up 5.8% (a max of 42 cents) in January, prior to this year, anyone who was living only on SS was making MORE than someone who worked full time.

Nosimplehiway said...

@Mule, okay, I'm a hypocrite. I rarely call out liberals on things.

(Though, as you may or may not recall, I did jump in on the conservative side a while back when I got really tired of reading the word "GOOPers" every other sentence. And I have been known to occasionally compliment a conservative on a particularly well-reasoned argument. I joined the conversation in support of tort reform a little while back. Oh, and there was a near deification of Wm F Buckley I posted a week or so ago... but anyway.)

Who am I? I'm someone who wants a reasonably civil discussion. Disagreement is a good thing, even loud and obnoxious disagreement has it's place (though I seriously doubt it's effectiveness), but PK's comments in that post were beyond the pale. I'm someone who wants anyone to be able to come here to discuss politics without encountering flagrantly racist rants. But since you never actually addressed my core concern that PK's comment was racist, I'll just take your response as the usual GOP circling of the wagons, and assume that you agree that white people are capable of nuanced thought, and people of color are not.

Tell me I'm wrong about your views. Tell me there is a majority of Republicans who do not believe in white racial superiority, and you are among that group. Please. I really want to be wrong on this one.

@Bart de Palma

Artful dodge, there, Bart. I doubt if anyone reads every post on the thread, but this was an openly racist comment on the second comment on the thread, not buried deeply by any measure. But, let's assume you somehow missed it. Now that you're aware of it, do you or do you not believe that white people are more nunaced thinkers, in contrast to non-whites, and is Pete Kent helpful or hurtful to the conservative cause? My intent here is not to stir up stuff, but really to figure out if the more... mature... side of conservatism is at all concerned about the more extreme elements, or if they secretly relish it's tantrums with a wink and a nod.

rawdawgbuffalo said...

Thes folks dont know what socialism is and are just talking out the side of they neck

matunos said...

Let's just all agree that you guys(*) are poopyheads.

(*) "you guys" refers to whoever it is the reader doesn't agree with on here.

Mule Rider said...

...I'll just take your response as the usual GOP circling of the wagons, and assume that you agree that white people are capable of nuanced thought, and people of color are not.

I wasn't trying to "circle the wagon" and avoid a response. My primary objective with that post was to provide a counter to your "demands" on us to denounce PeteKent. But if you must get a reply, then I'll state unequivocally that I don't share the belief that PeteKent holds...that being that only white people are capable of nuanced thought while people of color are not. I believe people of all color are created equal and capable of just about anything their heart/mind desires. I could get into a theoretical diatribe about some of the reasons I believe that minorities (blacks especially) behave so monolithically when it comes to how they vote, some of which is grounded in legitimate reasons (such as much of the GOP being out of touch to their needs/concerns) while others are not (Democratic exploitation of some of these voter groups), but the main points are that I don't believe it's because of some kind of inferior reasoning. That discussion will have to wait for another day, however.

Tell me I'm wrong about your views. Tell me there is a majority of Republicans who do not believe in white racial superiority, and you are among that group. Please. I really want to be wrong on this one.

I really can't speak for Republicans because, technically, I'm not one. I fashion myself as a conservative centrist independent. I've never voted for a Republican candidate nor have I donated money/time to any Republican causes. But I'd like to believe that the majority of Republicans and conservatives DON'T hold those views of white superiority and that that meme is simply the product of anecdotal cases of racism being blown up by the left as a strawman to castigate the entire opposition.

I've got eerily similar - but opposite - fears about the left that are the product of caricatures and parodies, and I'd really like to believe that those are wrong too. Unfortunately, some of you liberals do little to persuade me that I'm wrong.

shiloh said...

Re: racism er reverse racism ;) had an appendectomy in 1990 and it was an Asian doctor who performed the operation. And yes Virginia, felt much more comfortable w/an Asian doctor than I would have if it had been a waspish Caucasian doctor.

As I know minorities tend to be much more motivated when it comes to higher achievement ie Asians, Indians, Hispanics as they know being a minority many have to go that extra mile to succeed in a white dominated society.

The opening scene in the 'Magnificent Seven' when the owner of the hearse says about his driver, Well, when it comes to a chance of getting his head blown off, he's downright bigoted.

as when it came to my appendectomy I was downright bigoted ;) much preferring to have an Asian or Indian doctor as I know many lazy unmotivated whites cheated their way thru medical school, etc.

My local high school around 30 years ago and to this day regularly had Vietnamese "boat people" and their offspring earn valedictorian as being a minority, they were much more motivated than the average white American who has grown soft and lazy and prejudiced against over performing minorities.

So yea, Asia and India and even S. America is actually doing the U.S. a favor by allowing immigration lol as these peeps are our future doctors, scientists, engineers etc.

am I still on topic! :)

btw, did I mention it's almost impossible to defeat an incumbent senator!

Daniel said...

Why is it that when black people vote as a block it's considered something horrible but when the entire southern half of the United States votes as a block it's just something we expect? Republicans have ruined the South continously since Reconstruction, Democrats have been trying to help black people out since the 1940's. Whose thinking is less nuanced?
More to the point, I think it's interesting that the same voices that cry foul over the Socialist Security benefits not being increased are also loudly screaming "socialism" when anyone brings up health care reform.
It's sad that we have to take these idiots seriously. It's sad because no one ever lost an election underestimating the intelligence of the American people.

Derek said...

After all the above, I think I have finally been cured of lurking through the comments on 538. I look forward to the many novels and essays I can now read in the time I will have gained. Thanks!

Dick Cheney said...

PeteKent said...
(((I really think this CIA torture investigation thing is Exhibit A in how bad Obama sucks at being President.

First off, most Americans don't care. Rip the mothas heads off! They bombed us with planes and killed thousands of innocents. If a few threats, catepillars and simulated drowning were what it took to keep us safe, then fine.)))

So I supposed you are arguing that Bush is really the great president who kept us safe right? Guess what? Had he read the Memo on August 6, 2001 which specificlly said exactly what Bin Laden was going to do with hijacking planes, we would not even had the biggest attack in our history. Insead Condolesa Rice said "Oh I don't what happened what they were gonna do" and your boy GW was in Crawford for a vacation during that time. Did you know that he was the only President that took over 900 days off? The biggest attach in our history since Pearl Harbor happened on his watch, not Clinton, not Obama no even Carter.


(((Second, Obama has said repeatedly he wants to put the past behind us, so WTF? Can't he control hios own government?)))

Torture is torture he should have never put the past behind he just tried to play the politics. It is absolutely sickening to see someone like Dick Cheney who turned the word "torture" into "interrogation technique". Ask anyone who has been waterboarded they will tell you it's torture. What is more pathetic is that Dick Cheney, a coward who had 5 deferrments in Vietnam War (his war) all the sudent become the "chicken-hawk" 30 years after the war. When it was his time to fight, he chickened out, but 30 years later he became a tough guy who had no problem send other people's child to fight a war. I have no respect for those chicken-hawk politicians.


(((Third, Doesn't Obama need to keep us focussed on healtcare reform? LOL This should be a big distraction!)))

So it is absolutely okay to spend a trillion to invade a country who had nothing to do with 9/11, but a trillion to invest on things like healthcare and education is "government jamming down our throat"??? You really think that spending trillion and 4000+ of our GI's lives is not jamming down our throats?

I am so amazed how quickly we have seen the sudden birth of "fiscal" conservatives rising in this country. No body was talking about the Deficit for years (since Ross Perot brought that up in 1992) until finally we have a president that wanted to tackle the healthcare cost and energy independence and the neo con wants to talk about savings? You hero Reagan was the one spend and borrow from Japan, and your boy Bush spend and borrow from China, Republican spend just as much as the Democrats. The only difference is that while Dems would tax and spend (at least they have the deceny to balance to budget), GOP just want to charge and spend, they are definitely more shrifty and sneaky.

Republicans voted for Bush's first stimulus none of them cried socialism. They voted against when it is Obama's stimulus. That is politics at its worst, put your party in front of the country. Just like some people here who is so conservative they support them no matter what, they can't even see straight.

I'd rather to see a thousand Monica's in the White House than the 9/11 attackers who our president didn't even bother to read the memo. Biggest attack in our history on his watch!!!

shiloh said...

Dick Cheney said...

Dick, may I call you a dick!

yea, understand full well why cheney/bush is so bent out of shape re: torture, invasion of privacy, rendition, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib etc. because as I have said previously, 9/11 happened on your watch Dick!

yes indeed, cheney/bush were caught w/their pants down on 9/11 as al Queda, who were determined to strike America for a 10/20 year period as you knew all too well from all of the intelligence briefings actually flew a commercial airline into the Pentagon, the frickin' Pentagon!

How terribly embarrassing for a (5) time Vietnam draft deferment coward like yourself.

9/11 will be forever linked to your legacy er infamy Dick, so naturally you are trying to rationalize all of your inadequacies.

p.s. my post is directed at the real darth cheney ...

GayIthacan said...

Pan:

"Energy prices impact EVERYTHING.

How did the food you're buying get harvested and delivered to your grocery store? How does your milk stay at a chilly temperature while waiting for you to come pick it up? How does your phone work? Your cable/satellite service?

Sure, it's not the only factor. But to so blithely dismiss it is incredibly ignorant."

Thanks for the economics lesson I did not need. Being a Social Studies teacher, I do have some inkling of how markets work.

Your lecture, however, completely ignores what i said in my post. If 'energy prices' FELL 5% last year, then why has my rate of payment for electricity gone UP?? And why has the price of my food gone UP??

As I said, had you bothered to read my entire post instead of focusing on a single sentence (another typical symptom of lazy thinking), what good does a decrease in some component of the CPI do if it is not realized at the end of the economic chain?

I can assure you that what I pay for energy (or the food produced and stored through its use) has NOT decreased this year.

And that is the entire point of COLAs - to make up for the lost purchasing power of benefits. If a 5% decrease in energy is NOT reflected in the energy prices I pay - then another method needs to be found for figuring COLAs - one based on the DIRECT COSTS all beneficiaries must pay to survive. FOOD - SHELTER - MEDICINE.

Nosimplehiway said...

@Mule

Wow, I've actually come out of this glad you and I had this exchange. Sometimes when conservatives fail to react against such comments, it just burns me up because I have friends who are conservative, and I know they, like you, don't live every moment of every day full of hatred and vitriol. But sometimes the public face of conservatism just seems so.... angry and mean. Nice to see that stereotype disproven.

Just curious about the "never voted for a Republican" thing... do you just not vote? Vote for a third party? You're not (cue scary music) Canadian or anything are you? :-)

What sort of caricatures and stereotypes are you working with about the left, if I may ask? (Some might be true, for example, for some reason we liberals do eat a tremendous amount of hummus. No idea why.)

@shiloh

Is it possible that because it's extremely difficult for a foreign born professional to uproot their entire life and move half-way around the world for their career that only those most skilled and dedicated to their profession would be able to come here? If only the best of the best can manage to get here, how lucky are we to have them?

@Daniel

Well, as a white liberal in South Carolina may I point out that the South hardly votes as a GOP block? Democrats control both houses of the legislature in AR, LA, MS, AL and WV. We hold one of the two houses in KY, TN and VA. We also hold Governorships in OK, AR, TN, KY, NC, VA and WV. (West Virginia is debatable as Southern, but given that VA said it was during the Late Unpleasantness, that's good enough for me.)

Plus, nine Southern democratic senators and a decent smattering of Representatives. Now, admittedly these tend to be Blue Dogs, and I don't always agree with everything they do, but they are Dems.

In 2008, the South gave Obama approx. 19.8M votes, or nearly a third of his national total. He got 55 electoral votes (NC, VA and FL) down here, or 15% of his EV total.

My point isn't that the South doesn't strongly lean GOP, it does, or that the Dems down here aren't more conservative than most on some issues, they are. My point is that the Democratic Party is a truly national party, able to work with and integrate a wide variety of ideas, beliefs, ethnicities and regions.

Until the GOP learns how to do the same, they will not again be the power they once were. And from all the screaming and shouting over "I want my country back!" and "Obama is Hitler!", I don't see it happening anytime soon.

shiloh said...

Nosimplehiway said...

@shiloh

Is it possible that because it's extremely difficult for a foreign born professional to uproot their entire life and move half-way around the world for their career that only those most skilled and dedicated to their profession would be able to come here? If only the best of the best can manage to get here, how lucky are we to have them?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


One totally misunderstood the premise of my post ie for example the Vietnamese "boat people" who barely escaped the 1975 ford/kissinger chaos of the fall of Saigon only to miraculously arrived in this country w/jack squat. And then by sheer perseverance and fortitude try to make a living out of nothing also having to overcome racism, much like the Irish/Italians in early 20th century America, although the Irish and Italians at least were the same skin color.

And then out of all this devastation and prejudice have a family member become valedictorian of their hs class.

Not talking about immigrants who are already trained as professionals who come to America to escape oppression, better opportunities, whatever, but first generation Asians, Indians, Hispanics who have overcome great odds by hard work, dedication, motivation to achieve their dreams.

DCM in FL said...

NOSIMPLE

please DNFTT like MuleHead...

with his well-documented abusive history on this site - including numerous death threats to Nate & others, and his propensity to literally fling 'crap' & obsenities when he gets pissy...

well, the only way to try to keep the blog from getting further over-run with trolls & instigators is to skip over the repeat offenders such as MR [or MuleHead as I call him] and the other serial offenders.

let him go back to pickin' cotton on his vitual plantation...

DNFTT

shiloh said...

Just adding the language barrier many of the Vietnamese had to overcome as well, etc. etc.

And of course it's no surprise that many Asians are the best poker players in the world having just watched day 3/4 of the WSOP Main Event on ESPN. As Asians excel at math and science, I digress.

Let's shuffle up and deal ...

sherifffruitfly said...

I continue to lol at the amount of brain energy people on our side expend, digging hard for explanations other than: lots and lots of white folks are bigots.

Nosimplehiway said...

@GayIthacan

My guess on why your electric rates went up, and it's only a guess is that besides fuel and the occasional ice storm, the power company's costs are fairly fixed, with workforce, healthcare for workers/retirees, line maintenance, plant maintenance, and servicing of debt for previous capital projects all continuing regardless of the economy. Meanwhile, demand would be down as consumers cut back usage and industry slows down production. Less consumption spreads those fixed costs over fewer consuming units, so the price per kilowatt hour goes up. Most people spend more on gasoline and heating fuel than electricity, so they have agreater impact on the overall CPI-W.

I think there's likely no perfect method of determining COLA across the board, so all we have is best guesses and broad generalizaions. But excluding one portion or another of the CPI-W because it doesn't happen to impact you personally is patently unfair. Any method will have winners and losers.

For example, my partner's mom, when she was alive, lived in a senior tower that set the rent as a percentage of her income and had not raised their rate in years, so she was completely insensitive to housing increases. Meanwhile, a senior who lives in a highly walkable urban neighborhood may be heavily impacted by rents, but care not a whit about gasoline. A senior living in an isolated rural area in the deep south may be highly dependent on their car to perform even the most basic tasks of life, like getting the mail from the post office or driving into town for a bottle of milk, and so be heavily impacted by gas prices, but really not care about increase in apparel prices, as expensive winter clothes are unnecessary and there is little social pressure to dress stylishly. A woman who lives in a cold climate, attends church three times a week and volunteers at a local non-profit might need to maintain a wardrobe more costly than most working people, but have relatively low food costs (lots of hot dish suppers).

Maybe a more accurate measure might be actual consumer spending for your MSA among retirees, though it could spiral downward as the less retirees spend, the less they get from SS.

Or maybe peg SS to median non-farm payroll? That could work in mild deflationary or stable periods, but during periods of high inflation there's no way SS COLA would keep up. What's worse, it could become a driver of inflation, as one years wage increases run up against the following year's steadier prices.

Or maybe just take the total SS contributions each month and (roughly) divide by the number of recipients.. sort of a dividend on the SS fund? That would guarantee solvency, but be very volatile, both with the economy and seasonally.

At least you needn't worry about getting laid off altogether. Last year the COLA was what? 5.8%? How many workers do you think got a 5.8% raise effective January 1of this year? Were you complaining when high energy prices were raising your COLA, even though you don't use much energy?

DCM in FL said...

re: electric bill rate increases...

interesting situation here in central FL where the dominant monopoly electric provider for most of us in FPL [FL Power & Light].

they have been ordered to lower there billing rate for next year & credit back to consumers for over-charging us for fuel surcharges in the past year... so supposedly our 'rates' will go down

BUT FPL at this moment is trying to push through a BIG 30% rate increase thru the state Public Service Commission [which would more than cancel out the supposed credits] on the basis that they deserve to get a 12.5% return on investment to lure in capital... 12.5% for a utility in today's market is justified they swear !!!

suprise - even this state bureaucracy run by the GOP is pushing back [or at least not rubber-stamping it like usual]

12.5% return on a no-risk investment for a monopoly utility !!!

who cares about conservation or the public good - cut back & they will just increase the rates toi make even more money off of less...

that is no supply & demand or risk/reward capitalism...more gaming the 'system' as the property insurers have been doing for years now.

who do the utilities think they are ? the insurance or financial industry crafting their own public taxpayer handouts ???

'FPL proposal to raise rates enters final stretch of hearings'

@ http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/sfl-fpl-rate-hike-082309,0,5958054.story

Opus 132 said...

TERRIBLE NEWS!

Ted Kennedy is dead.

RIP Ted.

slasher14 said...

Apologies to anyone who pointed this out earlier -- it's very late and I don't feel up to reading the 118 comments ahead of me, especially since that nuanced thinking racist Pete Kent seems to have written about half of them.

Biggs' point about blacks supporting whites because whites live longer and therefore get a larger share of Medicare benefits is a load of crap. It is, of course, quite true that whites have greater life expectancies, but almost all of that results from the fact that the rate of infant mortality among blacks is much higher than it is for whites. If you die in your first year of life, you don't collect any benefits but you don't pay into the system, either. As far as Medicare is concerned, you never existed.

Among people who manage to live one year, the life expectancies of whites and blacks are not much different at all. There is a somewhat higher death rate among black males in their teenage years but, again, this cohort never collects Medicare but also pays almost nothing in terms of Medicare taxes, either.

The last numbers I saw on this showed that whites who make it to adulthood live around a year longer than blacks who do the same, which hardly translates into an enormous difference in taxes paid versus benefit return. I'm really kind of surprised to see that argument show up here. It's been discredited pretty badly.

PeteKent said...

Dean -- that was weird above. I dont get it.

Sorry I missed the back and forth after i threw my bombs. I had to do other stuff.

have a great day!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

RIP Ted Kennedy

The World and the Senate are a better place without you!

May flights of Angles sing thee to thy rest! You are free, sir, and your sins are forgiven!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Marcos said...

@ PeteKent

God, you're such an asshole! I bet the attention you get here is the highlight of your miserable existence though.

BTW, brilliant arguments about Obamba being the suckiest president because he sucks. What are you 12?

Versolt said...

@PeteKent I'm pissed I'm even responding to your lunacy but here goes, for the sake of other readers who think you know any of what you speak.

Sucks at being president? Thanks for the intellegent and fact based comment. Wow, honestly when did fox news start sending people to comment on this board? (sarcasm = on)

Let's review...

7 months and he sucks at being president even though everyone (aside from yourself) understood that we weren't in the best situation when he stepped in and yet he is still moving forward legislation even though the right and big pharm (both well documented) have been painting him as a failure they are using water colors and it just doesn't stick let's look at what he has done.

Passed a stimulous package, even tried to reach across the isle only to have it smacked in return and within 3 months the recession was over. (GDP increased during the latest quarterly report)Unemployment is still in the gutter but it is a trailing metric and typically is one of the last to recover from a downturn.

Ya know, I bet PeteKent just sucks at being a person, or at least an observer of the political climate. Too bad someone said he should share his thoughts because they aren't thoughts, he might as well be a bot program created by Glenn Beck to try and convince people what he says isn't what he means and sponsers don't care what he says on his show.

Health care reform will be passed and it will be Obama's crown jewel. Mark it!

joshualuserr said...

The article states that the old people are actually receiving more money for medicare than they pay for taxes. Although I realize that old people probably need these health care benefits, it is not fair to young people. Because the government is spending so much money paying for old peoples' medicare right now, there will be less and less money left for the current young people when they get old. Therefore, there will be less and less money to pay for social security, health care, and other services in the future for the current young folks. The senior citizens are not willing to have their advantageous health care plans changed, so they're crying "socialists."

Jay said...

Wow, it appears that there is a conservative troll on every political site posting the most obnoxious nonsense and corrupting the political discourse.

JohnJay60 said...

What's missing here is a recognition that Medicare is an INSURANCE program. INSURANCE, get it? Not INVESTMENT.

I don't complain because 'most' people get far less from their house and fire insurance than they pay in. Or that I paid all this money for car insurance and never had the privilege of lying in a hospital for months while my totaled car is replaced, both on INSURANCE company expense.

If Medicare is INSURANCE, then its success is measured by how many people have NOT slipped into total economic collapse due to health problems as seniors. It is NOT measured by how many people get less than they put in.

nsecchi said...

PeteKent-

Sorry, dude. It must really suck being you. But you must at least feel a smug sense of satisfaction being a defender of the white race. Brown people are pushing your kind against the wall and now they even have the office of the President. I guess that would drive a sane white person to do crazy things like swamp a blog with crazed attacks on this imposter president and supporters.

But I am glad that hasn't been my fate. That is a sign of a lunatic. Like I said, it must really suck being you.

Ed said...

These numbers have been so tortured you couldn't arrive at any decent conclusion. The original study doesn't show their methods, and this site is just running with the numbers to attempt to guilt seniors into thinking they made out better because of the system.

It is true what they say: there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

fred said...

The vitriol and nasty comments couched here as statements about an issue are but another indication of how are nation is not just polarized but in deep trouble.

Healthcare: I have a wife with great insurance so I use hers. But I qualify for Medicare and V.A. Hospitals, if wanted.

I am 80 years old and after what I have seen our "free market" doing to all but our military spending at the expense of our domestic needs, I would welcome Socialism with open arms.

Simple test: how many known (there are some not listed0 military bases do we have throughout the world? Can you answer that one? No?: Research it then.

AlinskyDefeater said...

Have you considered the possibility that seniors aren't quite as stupid and uninformed as you think? Perhaps they are aware that President Obama and Congress have proposed paying for Health Care reform by getting some $500 million dollars out of Medicare and slashing Medicare Plus.

This certainly seems like a legitimate concern.While Medicare adds to our mixed economy,the further it is extended it does indeed lead towards a more socialistic tilt of our economy.This is perhaps the most blatantly biased site on the Internet.

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