As I've been telling people all week here in Pittsburgh, there's ample reason for Democrats to be worried -- perhaps deeply so -- about 2010. Without major intervening events like 9/11, the party that wins the White House almost always loses seats at the midterm elections -- since World War II, an average of 17 seats in the House after the White House changes parties. Democrats have substantially more seats to defend than Republicans, particularly in the House. They appear to face a significant enthusiasm gap after having dominated virtually all close elections in 2006 and 2008. And the economy and health care are contingencies that could work either way, but which probably present more downside risk to Democrats than upside over the next 12-18 months, particularly if some version of health care reform fails to pass. While the Democrats are not extraordinary likely to lose the House, such an outcome is certainly well within the realm of possibility (I'd put the chance at somewhere between 1-in-4 and 1-in-3). The Senate picture is a bit brighter for them, but they are probably more likely now to lose seats in the chamber than to add to their majority, in spite of the spate of Republican retirements in Ohio, Missouri and other states. In a wave-type election, a net loss of as many as 4-6 seats is conceivable.
With all that said, I would reserve some healthy skepticism for polls that apply aggressive "likely voter" models to elections like the midterms that won't occur for another 16 months. In Pennsylvania, for example, Rasmussen now finds Arlen Specter a 12-point underdog to Pat Toomey among what they define as likely voters. Toomey also leads a more "generic" Democrat, Specter's primary rival Joe Sestak, by 8 points in Rasmussen's polling. By contrast, Research 2000, which in its polling for Daily Kos also uses a likely voter model (but evidently a less aggressive one), puts Specter 5 points ahead of Toomey and Sestak one point ahead of the Republican. These numbers represent big downward shifts for the Democrats, particularly in Specter's case, since Research 2000 last polled the race in May. But obviously, there is a big difference between Specter's -12 number under Rasmussen's likely voter model and his +5 under Research 2000's.
We can learn a little bit about these likely voter models by evaluating other polls that these firms conduct. Rasmussen's likely voter universe, for instance, trusts Republicans more not just on hot-button issues like the economy and health care, but also on traditional Democratic strengths like Social Security (by 4 points) and education (by 3 points).
If the electorate that goes to the polls next November is in fact one which trusts Republicans more than Democrats on education and social security, then Democrats will lose the Senate seat in Pennsylvania and undoubtedly almost every other competitive race -- it will be really, really ugly for them. But I just have a little bit of trouble accepting that as a likely scenario. In 2004 exit polling, voters who listed education as their top priority went to John Kerry over George W. Bush by a 3:1 margin. As of pre-Katrina 2005, when Social Security was being polled frequently in what was not a particularly great time for the Democratic party, Democrats led Republicans by an average of about 15 points on the issue -- and that was long before the market collapse that would seem to have undermined Republicans' calls to partially privatize the system.
Is it possible that the electorate which is voting in November 2010 will be so down on the Democrats that they trust Republicans more on issues like these? Sure, it is possible -- if the enthusiasm gap is wide enough, if Obama's approval is low enough, if the health care debate has been bungled enough, and if the economy is still hemorrhaging jobs. But I'd consider it something of a worst-case scenario. That's probably the best way to regard these Rasmussen polls for the time being.
8.15.2009
Likely Voters and Unlikely Scenarios
by Nate Silver @ 6:07 PM...see also 2010, likely voters, midterms, pennsylvania, rasmussen
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178 comments
Nate,
good article: a 17 point divergence is something that needs mentioning. But, august senate rankings... Please
Thank You Nate. We disagree on policies, but I do find your postings pretty reliable, although most of the time it prints a pretty ugly picture for the GOP.
Your post should shut up some on the left that claim the GOP is dead and that the Dems will make more gains in 2010.
The deficit and fiscal issues will be a major issue come 2010 for the Democrats with all this spending. Although it wasn't an outspoken concern of the Dems in 2006, they did win that year because of the big spending Republicans.
I find it so interesting that health care has become such a polarizing issue, perhaps nearing the level of polarization you'd find with abortion or gay marriage.
2010 will be a big year for the anti-big government crowd. It just saddens me most of the GOP gains will be in blue-dog districts, where the GOOD Democrats are located.
Why can't we take out Pelosi or Frank!?
If the democrats sit on their thumbs and refuse to pass a meaningful health reform bill, I will be campaigning hard to remove their sorry asses from those seats, and I am not alone. So they should be worried.
If Obama was fighting for half the things he's accused of, it would be even worse.
Not to mention governors where the Dems could end with fewer than 20 after 2010. Doyle in Wisconsin is not running for a third term, and Deval Patrick is at 19% approval in Massachusetts.
A couple observations--the enthusiam gap started in December 2008, the Dems were weakened by too many appointed senators and Neapolitano cost them a governor's chair, and I think the real rot started with the bailouts and a poorly drafted stimulus that hasn't done much for job creation.
If health care goes down, it's lights out for Democrats for at least 20 years.
The larger question is--do the Blue Dogs prefer a GOP Congress?
I'm think the answer is, maybe, yes.
Rasmussen does have a pretty stable house effect of about 15 pts in favor of Republicans.... look at Obama approval rating, and the Specter poll.
Is Deval Patrick really that low?
Join the boycotts against Fox and Fox News!
http://bit.ly/BeJGf and
http://bit.ly/fV2Aa
Yes:
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/08/15/patricks_approval_rate_hits_19.html
Nate-
This is the one that has me scratching my bald head:
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php
The party ID for repubs is tanking in the gen pop, but then if you click on the likely voter graph you get an opposite answer. Is this is just Ras effect or real? Can you analyze?
mikelow1885 said...
I think the real rot started with the bailouts
You mean the bailout that was pushed through Congress by the little shrub administration? The one that came in as a four-page, $750 billion dollar gift to the banking industry, with few to no provisions for oversight, and few to no provisions for the banking industry to pay the money back?
. . . a poorly drafted stimulus that hasn't done much for job creation.
You mean a law that was enacted on February 17, LESS THAN SIX MONTHS AGO, and where most of the funds still haven't been dispersed?
You mean a law that is trying to correct YEARS of mismanagement of the economy by the little shrub administration, whose administration took over when 135,999,000 were employed, and when they left office, there were 142,099,000 employed? A gain of about 500,000 jobs per year is GOOD?
There is no way that six months of work on correcting the economy can overcome 8 years of destruction of that economy.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
So, the bigger question is: Where in Pittsburgh can we find the brilliant minds behind 538 drinking tonight?
mikelow1885 said...
Yes:
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/08/15/patricks_approval_rate_hits_19.html
Ah, but you didn't dare mention that the blog entry ALSO states "Nontheless (sic), Patrick finds himself in a dead heat against Charles Baker (R) and Timothy P. Cahill (I), in a three-way general election race."
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
OK, yesterday did something I rarely do anymore, looked at RCP.
Repeat Of '94 Looks Unlikely/William Scheider
This sentence/statistic stood out:
In 1994, white men comprised 43 percent of the electorate. In 2008, their share fell to 36 percent.
Also, will Latinos be motivated to vote in 2010. You betcha' as I believe Hispanics are the new Irish as regards to organization. How did the Irish get a foothold in America? by organizing, unions, politics, even the parochial school system "we" can blame ;) on the Irish.
This, of course, is the real grass root political movement the Obama campaign started in 2007 as all the political trends now favor the Dems.
As always in mid-terms, it will be Obama's job approval, and voter turn out, and again, actual candidates have to actually run against each other by staging a political campaign. Go figure! ;) as Macaca Allen will be the first to tell you.
And re: older white guys. This group accounts for much of the current unemployment % as older people in general are having a harder time finding a job in an ever more "youth obsessed" society. Will these unemployed be motivated to vote? Many never vote, as older white women has traditionally been the most reliable voters.
btw, did I mention Nov. 2010, politically speaking, is an eternity from now.
I really think polling for likely voters 15 months ahead of the election is a bit unrealistic. As with every election, especially mid-terms, it's who gets out the vote. If all the GOP can do is get the fire-breathing birthers and deathers out to vote I'm not sure they will win elections. But on the other hand if Democrats feel to complacent then the GOP can easily chalk up some victories. But then a lot can change over a year for both sides for either party to get too cocky.
And like you Nate I just don't see how PA voters can go from preferring Democrats on Social Security and Education for so long and now all of a sudden think these are Republican strong points especially given the fact that there has been no outside event to stimulate that move. I fear that Rassumssen is looking for Obama discontent and discarding other signs that aren't fitting their model.
@Meltdown in Maryland:
You're still blaming Bush for Obama's failed stimulus? The leftwing meltdown is fun to watch.
I can't think of a better reason to get the health care issue done as soon as possible. If there were ever an opportunity to utilize that filibuster proof 60 in the senate; now would be it. I don't think Sen Kennedy and Byrd are going to be around much longer so that magic 60 is rather ephemeral in political terms. I am hoping for some backlash from all this Republican implosion that's going on.
Who said the following just last year?
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/tracking-poll-primer.html
“In summation, none of these tracking polls are perfect, although Rasmussen — with its large sample size and high pollster rating — would probably be the one I’d want with me on a desert island. Conversely, the only one of the trackers that I consider obviously dubious is Zogby.”
How do you explain PPP(D) then? Jensen hasn't shown a positive result for any dem, including Obama, in quite some time.
This week's Colorado and national poll should be interesting.
I'll predict 45/48 approval/disapproval in Colorado and 48/46 nationally.
I nailed the PPP(D) North Carolina poll numbers prior to its release. My prediction as to the poll numbers can be found here:
http://www.hedgehogreport.com/?p=9731#comment-522504 (comment 243)
If these numbers hold up, Obama is certainly below 50% in approval. Marist had the Vick question at 57/36 and Obama at 55% approval, nearly three points higher than his national average of around 52%. PPP(D) will be dropping down his national average later this week.
http://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/3328669070
"First run of national poll: literally an even breakdown on whether people think Vick should be able to play this year. That never happens!"
Maybe Silver should try to answer this question regarding the weekly DailyKos/Research 2K that for some reason, includes non-voters in its sample (so Kos thinks felons are relevant?)
How could Obama be at 60% favorables nationwide when his favorables in PA according to Daily Kos/Research 2K in its PA from this week was 55%? Its last CA poll, also conducted this week, had him at 63%.
PA is to 2-3 points to the left of the national average while CA is 8-10 points ot the left of the national average.
So how could Obama have a lower favorability number in PA than his national favorability according to Research 2K/Daily Kos?
Nate…
Stop
quoting
Rasmussen
poll
results.
If the RNC fed you a puff piece on Sarah Palin, would you feel obligated to reproduce it here? Of course not, because it would be blatant PR.
Please wake up to the fact that Rasmussen is no longer a reliable pollster, but a PR machine for the GOP.
Every time you post crap from him masquerading as news, you do a big favor to the GOP. Why don’t you treat his results the same way scientists treat results from experiments? They are not newsworthy, in fact they are not science, if they cannot be reproduced. A similar standard should apply to all these crackpot pollsters—if they come up with a haywire result, it’s garbage unless someone else comes up with it too.
Being fair does not mean you are obligated to disseminate lies and trash.
Pragmatus:
You mean the most accurate pollster in the presidential election? (Gallup being the worst)
Nate-- Your doubts about Rasmussen do not jibe with the way you rate the accuracy of its polls. Your fears about no health care plan passing are too pessimistic. Can't see how that happens, though I would love to see it. Not that I'm against universal health care, but I am against universal health care at all costs. Unfortunately, Congress is in an "ends justify the means" mindset on the health care issue.
Still my favorite GROG moment:
What has Pete Kent predicted that hasn't come true in 5 months?
About Rasmussen...
Off topic, this seems to be as good a place as any to dump some pollster comparison info regarding the 51 states/district elections in 2008 that actually determined who became President of the United States in 2009.
Nine pollsters polled in nine or more states in the ten days prior to the election. More than one of the nine polled in 29 states. Determination of who was "closest" to the true result in those 29 states is based on polling/victory margin followed (where there were ties) by candidate percentages. Ties remained in Georgia, Michigan, Missouri and North Carolina so the "closest" total is 34. The pollsters in order from "closest" by percentage:
PPP (closest in 7 of 15)
CNN/Time (closest in 4 of 10)
Strategic Vision and Zogby (closest in 3 of 9)
Research 2000 (closest in 5 of 16)
Rasmussen (closest in 6 of 26)
Survey USA (closest in 4 of 18)
ARG (closest in 2 of 14)
Mason-Dixon (closest in 0 of 14)
The 29 states are: Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida (Survey USA), Georgia, Illinois, Indiana (PPP), Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri (PPP, Rasmussen & Zogby), Montana (ARG), Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina (ARG & PPP), Ohio (CNN/Time), Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin.
All polling info was obtained from the RCP polling archives. This was mostly an exercise in confirming my sense that Rasmussen, while doing a good job in polling the meaningless national contest, did a mediocre job in polling the meaningful state contests.
You mean the most accurate pollster in the presidential election? (Gallup being the worst)
Rasmussen has a good track record on polling election outcomes, in large part because the questions are fairly simple and straightforward and the accuracy can be checked at the end of the day. But on issue polls, he consistently shifts rightward, and tends to consistently designs the question frames around a republican world view. Now this isn't necessarily Rasmussen's fault, as issue polls ridiculously hard to design in an impartial manner as the slightest change in the wording of the question or on how much the pollster should "educate" the person being polled on the issue can drasticay shift the results. Also, all these variables make it very hard to compare polls on an apples to apples basis, so when Rasmussen comes up with one number and Gallup comes up with another, the shear number of variables between how the polls were conducted can make any comparison between them utterly worthless.
I think it's worth noting a key difference between the two parties. When Democrats win a crushing victory, they spend most of their time cowering in fear of screwing up their mandate. When Republicans win anything, or even just don't lose as badly as expected, they assume they have a mandate and push things as far as the Supreme Court will let them. The Democratic majority in both houses is strong enough to push anything, yet they insist upon having Republican cooperation. Republicans with slim majorities do not care about Democratic cooperation. Republicans fail because they are lazy. Democrats fail because they are cowards.
GROG…
Your calendar is as goofy as your politics.
In case you haven’t heard, the presidential election is over.
The next presidential election is not for another 3 years, 2+ months.
Please be sure to let us know what Rasmussen thinks on October 31, 2012. Until then he won’t be of much use to anyone interested in public opinion.
yokem55 said...
Rasmussen . . . tends to consistently designs the question frames around a republican world view.
You mean like this?
"Which would be better… passage of the bill working its way through Congress or no health care reform passed by Congress this year?"
Mote that Rasmussen says "the bill" when, in fact, there are multiple bills issued by the various committees.
Talk about tilting the playing field, if you ask me.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Pragmatus?
Calling the one who drinks watered down wine goofy is, well, goofy.
Much better descriptives might be 'irrational' or 'insane'.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
@GROG
Quite ridiculous to call this a 'failed stimulus' with just a few months of implementation. But that kind of analysis is better left to the experts. Let's see what the commies over at Bloomberg have to say:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a7iQTrYFwTtY
U.S. Enters Recovery as Stimulus Refutes Skeptics
"The economy will expand 2 percent or more in four straight quarters through June, the first such streak in more than four years, according to the median of 53 forecasts in the monthly Bloomberg News survey. Analysts lifted their estimate for the third quarter by 1.2 percentage points compared with July, the biggest such boost in surveys dating from May 2003.
“We’ve averted the worst, and there are clear signs the stimulus is working,” said Kenneth Goldstein, an economist at the Conference Board in New York.
Hmm- Kenneth sure sounds like a collectivist shill to me.
Nate,
The plural of scenario is scenari, not scenarios.
Travel to Italia and learn the language.
Grazie.
,dave
TommyReport- the statewide DK polls are horserace polls, therefore people who don't vote have no place in there. The national polls are about the opinion that citizens of the United States have of their President. Not voting doesn't make your opinion invalid.
And as your comparing an all-adults poll with registered-voter polls, your analysis is invalid, as your basically comparing apples to oranges.
Oh God, now we're correcting Nate's spelling in multiple languages? Lord have mercy.
(I will note that it is a loanword, so "scenarios" would be appropriate. In fact, I think the only usage of -i in pluralization is for words that end in -us (ex., octopus > octopi, uterus > uteri).)
That said: I'm inclined to agree with dre's assessment that...uh...using a likely voter model 15 months out from the next general (which happens to be a midterm - Obama is up for election in 39 months) is disingenuous at best.
And I'm not just saying that because it's providing numbers I don't like. After all, in August 2007, would you have considered African Americans to be likely voters? Would you have thought that the Democratic base would have been as energized as it was?
Would you have expected under-30s, who only gave 7 more points to Kerry than the nation at average, to - in the last cycle - give Obama 15 more points than the national average? (Especially considering that Obama gained 5 points on Kerry this cycle nationwide.) You probably could have predicted that Republicans would probably not be that motivated to vote, but on the other hand - would you have expected John McCain to select as his running mate a person who simultaneously energized the base and raised serious doubts as to his competency among centrists and more moderate Republicans?
I can see why likely voters would be a good model to use in the run-up to an election - after all, it's the people who actually vote who count in terms of the direction of policy. But trying to read the tea leaves this far out - when there are SO many contingencies that decides who is a likely voter and who isn't - leads to...well, this.
Regarding PPP polls, they are picking up a big enthusiam gap. Their most recent VA poll had 52% McCain voters and only 41% Obama voters. There is a big dropoff with AA and younger voters in turnout. A 15-point enthusiasm swing is huge right now.
And because I'm a wordy bastard (I've been told my typing is loquacious, deep, and rambling):
TommyReport - Probably the same universe where its liberal neighbor seems poised to elect a Republican governor. That was all buddy-buddy with Dubya.
There are different contingencies. I mean, by conventional wisdom, last fall Missouri should have been the blue state, and not Indiana. You can't just assume based on a red state-blue state paradigm anymore.
Anyway, I'll kick it oldschool (even though this has fallen out of favor):
WV - oureilly.
1) I bet that he's going to have a field day with the Ras approval ratings.
2) Rasmussen's skewed in favor of Republicans? Oureilly? Tell me something I don't know!
In English, the plural of scenario is scenarios.
DAVE BARNES
The 'english' [american] language definition for the plural of 'scenario' = 'scenarios'...
did you even bother to check that before you posted your comment re: Nate's use of scenarios ???
we are 'speaking' in english here - not italian or spanish or other languages.
in other words, Nate usage is correct & YOU are incorrect...
or perhaps this is your late night attempt at humor that fell flat ???
BTW - I appreciate that Nate called out Ras for a change on his 'poling' techniques...
Nate:
We can learn a little bit about these likely voter models by evaluating other polls that these firms conduct.
Rasmussen is rather open about the partisan breakdown of their current likely voter population. It is around Dem +5, maybe a point closer than it was in November 2008 when Rasmussen predicted the exact outcome of the election. If you have a premium membership, you should be able to access the precise data, but Dem +5 is hardly skewed to the GOP.
Rasmussen's likely voter universe, for instance, trusts Republicans more not just on hot-button issues like the economy and health care, but also on traditional Democratic strengths like Social Security (by 4 points) and education (by 3 points)...But I just have a little bit of trouble accepting that as a likely scenario. In 2004 exit polling, voters who listed education as their top priority went to John Kerry over George W. Bush by a 3:1 margin.
Apples and kiwis.
Rasmussen is posing his question to his entire universe of likely voters.
The 2004 exit polling notoriously skewed Dem and that particular sample was limited to the tiny minority of respondents who listed education as their top priority in a national election rather that everyone they polled.
I would not be surprised that, if Rasmussen had likewise limited his population of respondents to those who think education is the top national priority, that this tiny subgroup still prefers Dems over the GOP by some multiple.
As of pre-Katrina 2005, when Social Security was being polled frequently in what was not a particularly great time for the Democratic party, Democrats led Republicans by an average of about 15 points on the issue -- and that was long before the market collapse that would seem to have undermined Republicans' calls to partially privatize the system.
Was this a historically accurate poll of likely voters?
Was this during the Dem demonization of the Bush attempt to allow tax payers to invest their SS surplus into private accounts as an attempt to destroy the entire system?
In the answers are yes, the poll numbers do not surprise me. Voters are about as fond of the GOP messing with their SS as they are now with Obama attempting to socialize their health care.
In any case, I agree with you that the polling done nearly 15 months out from an election is hardly a great predictor of the outcome of that election or we would be discussing a reprise of Hillarycare being pitched by a second President Clinton.
Your odds of about a 1 in 3 chance the GOP can retake the House sound about right. The opportunity is certainly there. The trends of unemployment and adverse voter reaction to the Obama agenda do not favor the Dems in the 2010 off year election. However, the GOP needs to offer a real conservative alternative if they are to ride a wave election. Instead, they seem content to lay in the weeds and snipe.
Shame. Where is a Newt Gingrich when you need him?
I need someone, Nate preferably, to explain to me why we are only ever looking at POST war election results for what is likely to happen in the future. Aside from the fact that there has been no time like this during the post war until now where the economy was not slowing or stagnant but nearly melting down, I don't see how any of these elections 1948-2004 really even count. What is happening in the world, our economy, our growing fears, and what is happening to the current opposition party (large target saying thank you, I did that) must all be taken into consideration.
Election results 1932-36 show that Americans are perfectly willing to give one party near complete control of the country if the circumstance warrant it. After the '36 elections Democrats controlled the House 334-88 and the Senate 76-17. That was three straight elections where the GOP lost ground, not only to the Democrats but to the Progressive Party as well. People keep talking like there is no way Americans will give the Democrats more than sixty or so seats, that voters are afraid of too much power in one party. Given the alternative (and the alternative reality) of the current Republican Party, who else are they going to vote for? 28% is a loser not just on a national level, but on state levels as well. Let us see once Obama has his way in the fall how much further that falls.
2010 is not your father's midterm election.
shiloh said...
Repeat Of '94 Looks Unlikely/William Scheider
This sentence/statistic stood out:
In 1994, white men comprised 43 percent of the electorate. In 2008, their share fell to 36 percent.
:::sigh:::
17% percent of the white male population did not die off in 14 years nor did several million illegal immigrants suddenly become voters. These are turnout figures.
In 1994, the libs stayed home in disgust with their corrupt Dem Congress and the conservatives came to the polls in force. Thus, the large percentage of white males. Remember the "angry white men" explanation for 1994?
Conversely, in 2008, the libs were are motivated as I have seen them in my lifetime and came to the polls in force. When presented with the choice between Sen. "I cross the aisle to vote for Dem legislation" McCain and Sen. "Lets spread the wealth around" Obama, conservatives stayed home.
However, the trends leading up to 2010 look far more like 1994 than 2008. Schneider is doing his usual pro Dem spin to obscure that fact.
Let me say this as a part-time active prog/lib/counterculture person: After randomly checking Fox Spews website (yeah, I monitor their lies and flights of fancy), I was utterly shocked to see featured, BHO's townhall in my home state of Colorado. That they would offer it in it's entirety was the real shock, yet, of course, predictably, scatter-shot all over their site are doom-bating headlines about- you name it- anything to do with the Administration is just tweaked ever so slightly to reinforce their propaganda.
Funny thing is, the live web thing (reality) counteracts almost all that the lunatic fringe is trying to make the rest of us buy into. What I saw was an Obama that was as articulate and concise as ever, going into calm, detailed answer to each of the questioners. He listens. He thinks before he talks. We all knew this, yet in light of the current misinformation war foisted against him, this was the best I've seen him, including the campaign. It seriously reignited my optimism and my enthusiasm and gave me great heart that BHO is getting "back on message" by speaking his truth and eloquently putting the truth right back in the face of these fear mongering, manipulating media personalities and the minions who feed and fan out such garbage.
I know I am speaking to many here who probably agree and a few who won't no matter what. I had a second helping of kool-aid today, and the more these right wing smear trolls fart out their incongruous, irrational, insane lies, the greater confidence I have that truth shall prevail and that we will have a better, reformed health care system. Yes, we fucking can, baby.
Nate,
you know I'm a fan, but that "enthusiasm gap" post that so much of your thesis seems to hang on was weak.
You took a single poll in VA, and extrapolated it nationally on a thin premise. Then you concluded that, since the Republicans are "screaming louder", they will have higher turnout. How does that follow?
Last, you included this in that post:
"But the Democrats don't have a mass movement right now. They have an electorate that's maybe 60 percent unaware of the threat that things like health care are under in Washington, 20 percent aware but burned out or ambivalent, and 10 percent both aware and engaged but busy fighting with one another."
So where did those numbers come from? Who conducted a poll asking Democrats if they were "aware, but burnt out or ambivalent", for example? As I said, it is weak.
Without the premise of the "enthusiasm gap", we are left with a trend that verges on the mystical. The "six year itch" was a trend, too, and the Republicans invoked that trend in 1998 as some kind of infallible guarantee. How did that work out for the GOP? They lost five seats in the House.
I have a trend to throw out there, as well. Since 1994, the Republicans have never gained a single seat in the Senate or the House when their favourables (as per Gallup) are below 45%.
The last such poll put the GOP at 34%.
Bart: Well, yeah, either a growth in the minority population or a loss of the "angry white male" population isn't the root cause. Together, though - and it's not just illegal immigrants; Hispanics in general tend to have more children than non-Hispanic whites - I can see the "angry white male" share of the vote dropping quite a few percentage points in the past 14 years.
The population's grown, and it's been disproportionately minority. I will grant that a couple of disaffected conservatives probably sat out this election, but I think that it would be a total of 1% of the total electorate, if that.
You've also demonstrated why Hispanics are becoming a mostly solid Democratic bloc - nice job on the subtle racism in assuming that any shift in demographics has to be either due to white guys dying off or *dramatic chord* THEM DURN ILLEGALS GETTIN' VOTIN' RIGHTS. Classy.
And it was less than 5 years that Republicans were actively courting Hispanics, too. How things have changed.
Just listened to a late night anti-health care reform ad here in FL but with a twist...
announcer pushing 'let's slow down the health care reform [cuz no need to 'rsuh' to do it now]'
rather than the 'SOCIALIST, kill the bill' pitch
it is getting like the 2008 electoral season here with political ads up & running in FL
BHO & DEMS & AARP + PhRMA need to get their YES ads up soon to counterbalance the inentional misinfo being perpetrated on the masses
this ad was probably paid for by the insurance companies [Harry & Louise all over again]. clearly meant to appeal to the extremely low-info crowd since there was no 'content' provided - just a play on status quo & fear itself...
BDP wrote:
"When presented with the choice between Sen. "I cross the aisle to vote for Dem legislation" McCain and Sen. "Lets spread the wealth around" Obama, conservatives stayed home."
Strangely, I recall it more like Sen. "I'm a war hero" and Sen. "Muslim terrorist/Black Panther/socialist".
That Republican base was screaming pretty loudly then, too, if remember right. They even said that Obama was the Anti-Christ. Certainly, the Republicans that were on this site seemed 'energised' to the point of irrationality.
So, if that all-powerful base couldn't be bothered to turn out against The Ultimate Bogeyman of the Century, then maybe they won't turn out this time.
Or maybe they aren't as big and all-powerful as you consider them to be.
On something not too far off topic, I think that what we can agree that Karl Rove was successful at was consolidating (through mass hypnosis) the "devotional" base of the GOP in 2004, in particular.
Something that Rahm Emmanuel will not be capable of is the converse with the Left, for more than one reason, obviously. The Left, by it's very nature, is neither "devotional" nor "hypnotize-able". That said, it will be after the fruits of health care reform are seen after something is passed that something akin to that is within the realm of possibility, for the simple fact that Barry will be delivering on campaign promises to his core base. That matters in the "enthusiasm" sense, if you will, as right now, that's the meme du jour for most of the media and critics of the Administration.
A little more conserva-twit stupidity masking as bravado, a little more Rachel Maddow digging to expose these ultraconservative crooks and sheisters in their astroturf campaign ("You and what Armey?"), and, more importantly, a lot more being on message by BHO, the more the tide ought to turn in favor of not only health care reform, yet a whole host of other issues, most of which lead to turning around the economy. Do I agree with everything BHO has done? Not by a long shot. Do I have faith that he is able to turn things around for the country as a whole? Damn straight I do.
Bart DePalma said...
However, the trends leading up to 2010 look far more like 1994 than 2008. Schneider is doing his usual pro Dem spin to obscure that fact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually it's you doing the spinning, as most of us do at 538, which is fine. All of it to be filed in the circular file, under cs.
and nice try re: angry white men, as one provides no factual evidence ie spin. btw, one should do a book on the angry white guy as well as your definition of socialism tome. Yea, they should both fly off the shelves ...
btw, Bill Schneider has been very accurate in his political forecasting over the years. yea, I know, faux news has the market cornered on political prognostications ie turdblossom w/the math, and that toe sucking genius morris, and the (2) go to guys for all political analyses/predictions, loofa billo and chicken hawk hannity.
Yea, as murphro2 said re: 1932-1936, whose to say the Dems can't have (3) tsunami's in a row, especially since most of their opposition is still talking about "death panels" ie Grassley, who voted for the same provision in a 2003 bill et al ie these Reps aren't very bright! Without doing my list of the usual Rep suspects, suffice it to say, this is not your grandma's Rep party.
p.s. :::sigh:::
White Angry Man?
Time for some Zappa:
THING-FISH:
Straighten up in dat chair and pay attentium! People, dis is fo yo' own good! Do YOU know what YOU are?
MAMMY NUN ENSEMBLE (& THING-FISH): (displaying Dummy #1)
Do you know what you are? (Dat what I ast ya!)
You are what you is
You is what you am (And dat de trufe!)
A cow don't make ham (I meant dat now!)
You ain't what you're not (Not even hardly!)
So see what you got (And you got a lot o' lookin' t'do, junior!)
You are what you is (Dat entirely too correct!)
An' that's all it 'tis! (Uh-huh!)
A foolish young man (Bring dat dummy ovuh heah 'n show it to 'em!)
Stashed away in San Quentim
Ate de Mys'try Potatoes (Told ya 'bout dem 'taters!)
EVIL PRINCE was inventin'
Now he talk like de THING-FISH ( (manipulating the dummy) "Hmmmm, Saffiiiee!")
An' he look like a MAMMY! ( (manipulating the dummy) "See de mammy, now! See de mammy, now!")
His fav'rit CO-LOG-NUMM (Smell like... chitlins!)
Is de one dey call 'SAMMY'! (One-Adam-Twelve, see de MAMMY!)
He finally layin' (Armed 'n dangerous, reproach wit cautium!)
De whole thang down,
'Cept de Nivea Lotium (Rub it on good, now!)
An de Royal Crown (Take good care o' dat "ash"!)
Do you know what you are? (You's a wimp, she's a shrew!)
You are what you is (Got dat?)
You is what you am (One-Adam-Twelve, see de mammy agin'!)
A cow don't make ham (And it never will!)
You ain't what you're not, (Unless sciene do somethin' 'bout it!) So see what you got! (I know dey woikin' on it...)
You are what you is, (Underneath Virginia!)
An' that's all it 'tis! ("Boog-boog'm, Dano..." MAMMY ONE!)
MAMMY NUN ENSEMBLE (& THING-FISH): (showing Dummy #2)
A foolish young man
Of de negro persuasion
Devoted his life
To become a caucasian
He stopped eating pork
He stopped eating greens
He trade his dashiki ( (manipulating the dummy) "Uhuru!")
For some Jordache Jeans!
He learned to play golf
An' he got a good score
Now he says to himself:
"I ain't no..."("... nignint...")
"... no more!"
Hey! Hey! Hey!
THING-FISH:
One-Adam-Twelve, see de "nignint" wit knife! Proceed wif cautium! Knife may be open."
MAMMY NUN ENSEMBLE:
BWANA MA-COO-BAH!
HARRY:
All Right! Let's go!
MAMMY NUN ENSEMBLE:
MERCEDES BAINNNZZZZZ!
MAMMY NUN ENSEMBLE (& SISTER OWL-GONKWIN-JANE COW-HOON):
Who is who (I don't know!)
'N what is what (Somethin' I just don't know!)
'N why is this (Tell me now!)
Appropriot (That's a funny pronunciation if'n ever I heard one!)
If you don't like (Where'd you get that word?)
What you has got ("Appropriot"? The word is not...)
Drop it in the dirt (Drop it, yeah!)
'N let it rot (I can smell it now!)
Someone else (Here de come! Here de come!)
Will surely come (I told you they was comin'!)
'N pick it up (That's right!)
'Cause he wants some (An' he wants it for free!)
And when one day (There will come a day!)
You wonder who (I wonder, too!)
You used to was (Who I was anyway!)
'N what you do (I used to work at the post office!)
You'll scratch your head (But I don't wanna un-do my doo!)
'N look around (Just to see what's goin' on!)
But what you lost (Can't seem to find it!)
Will not be found (A Mercedes Benz!)
Do you know what you are? (I know...)
You are what you is (... I'm the kinda guy...)
You is what you am (... That ought to be drivin'...)
A cow don't make a ham (...A four-fifty SLC...)
You ain't what you're not (... A big ol' red one...)
So see what you got (...With some golf clubs stickin' out de trunk!)
You are what you is (I'm gwine down to de links on Saturday mornin'!)
An' that's all it is (Gimme a five-dollar bill...)
You are what you is (... And an overcoat, too!)
An' that's all it is (Where's my waitress? Yeah!)
You are what you is (Robbie, take me to Greek Town!)
An' that's all it is (I'm harder than yer husband; harder than yer husband!)
You are what you is (I'm goin' down to White Street, to the Mudd Club y'all!)
An' that's all it is (I'm goin' down 'n work the wall 'n work the floor... )
You are what you is (... 'N work the pipe 'n work the wall...)
An' that's all it is (... Some more!)
Uh, Nate skip politics for a second. What do you think of Neftali Feliz? & the Texiera/Ranger trade?
You can reach me at mavis.mike@gmail.com.
Thanks to http://wiki.killuglyradio.com
He's white, Jim . . . "
Why don't you like me?
Why don't you like me?
Why don't you like me?
Am I really that bad?
HE'S BAD, HE'S BAD, HE'S BAD
"I think you're a jerk! I'm moving from you!"
"Make me a sandwich."
"Moving to Venice."
"I'll be black."
(Jack! What?)
"Still white, Jim . . . "
I hate my mother
I hate my father
I AM my sister . . .
And Jermaine is a negro!
A NEGRO! A NEGRO! A NEGRO!
"I thought he looked good -- what happened to you?"
"Please read this pamphlet."
"I'm so BAD!"
You take the monkey, I'll take the llama,
We'll have a party: get me a Pepsi --
Michael is Janet, Janet is Michael --
I'm so confused now --
Who is Diana?
He's oxygenated
His nose is deflated
And he thinks he looks good to you
He thinks he looks good to you
Ike: Oh, I'm sorry . . .
FZ: This is supposed to be the part where I . . . name people who are not . . . related in any particular way to . . . Michael Jackson . . . so . . . oh, let's see now, who could it be . . . uh . . . What's your name . . . ? His name is Bob? Bob is not the illegitimate son of Michael Jackson, take it from me . . .
Billy Jean is not Mr. Bob
Arnold Silvestri . . . (Ha ha ha!)
Billy Jean isn't Arnold Silvestri
Jeanne Kirkpatrick . . .
Billy Jean is not Kirkpatrick
Lando Calrissian . . .
Give me oxygen
Give me oxygen
Give me oxygen
Box o' turds
FZ: That's right, a box o' turds!
murphro2 said...
I need someone . . . to explain to me why we are only ever looking at POST war election results for what is likely to happen in the future.
Maybe because:
- Newspapers were much more important prior to WWII, and most communities of 50,000 or larger had at least 2 newspapers of divergent political philosophies?
- The BIG new media was radio, but it was still a localized, not national, source of news?
- Widespread ownership, thus viewership, of television began in the early 1950s?
- National news broadcasts on television didn't really begin until the mid-1950s?
- News broadcasts, national OR local, lasted more than 15 minutes?
- Maybe because cable television didn't start in the US until 1948, when people who couldn't get over the air television signals because of terrain? Until 1972, the only thing that cable television did was rebroadcast (through cable) the signals of over the air stations.
- Maybe because the first national cable news channel (CNN) got it's start in 1980? And back then, news was treated in mostly a nonpartisan manner, unlike the partisan way it is handled today, especially on networks like Faux News, and by owners of large numbers of stations (for example, Sinclair Broadcast Group [which, BTW, may be forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the near future]).
- Maybe because of all the social and political changes that have occurred in the US, ESPECIALLY since WWII?
- Maybe a combination of all the above and/or many other reasons?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Our very wingnut Mr. dePalma?
Are you chicken to respond to ALL of my message posted at 9:03 PM on August 14 on the "Occam's Razor and Health Care" thread (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/occams-razor-and-health-care.html#comments)?
You, very wingnut Mr. dePalma, responded to the last two sentences, but are you avoiding responding to the first part of that message I posted?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
his is so brilliant and simple that I can't even believe it has been overlooked:
"Stop Making Stuff Up"
Right back in these Palin worshiping imbeciles' faces.
"Stop Making Stuff Up" about health care reform, about where BHO was born, about this administrations motives and plans,
"Stop Making Stuff Up"
Your welcome, Gibbs.
Zappa's ... Don't Eat The Yellow Snow is one of my all-time favs :)
'Apostrophe' was/is a great album, and Zappa was one of the main reasons the '60s and early '70s rocked!
And yes Virginia, it's true, Zappa never did drugs ;)
And bringing a little politics into the equation ie very little, how great was the "lyric wars" in 1985 when they held a senate hearing re: "suggestive" and "offensive" lyrics in pop music.
It was Frank Zappa, Dee Snider and John Denver lol defending the 1st Amendment vs. Tipper Gore, Mrs. James Baker and Mrs. Strom Thurmond. The ladies were totally outmatched! Someone told me Zappa had an IQ of 180, but as Einstein said, IQ tests are bullshit! ;)
I digress
Dreamed I was an Eskimo
Frozen Wind Began to Blow
And My Momma Cried
And My Momma Cried
Don't Be a Naughty Eskimo
Watch Out Where the Huskies Go
And Don't You Eat That Yellow Snow
Watch Out Where the Huskies Go
And Don't You Eat That Yellow Snow
~~~~~~~~~~
He Took a Dog-Doo Snow-Cone
And Stuffed it in My Right Eye
He Took a Dog-Doo Snow-Cone
And Stuffed it in My Other Eye
And the Huskie Wee-Wee
I Mean the Doggy Wee-Wee
Has Blinded Me
And I Can't See
Temporarily
shiloh, how old are you? Younger than 30, I am projecting. That's wonderful, and, please, don't take this personally- I'm glad you like FZ. I'm just an old Zappa fanatic, but WHY is Don't Eat That Yellow Snow the only song that anyone under 30 can quote? And, Apostrophe, yes, a fine album, yet is it the Official Frat Boy Introductory Album or something? I've been confused about that for some time. Many albums are silly, many are straight ahead kick ass music, many are a mix, with a lot of great political chutzpah, like almost the entire "You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore" series, and some, like Live At The Fillmore East 1971 is some of the best live musical opera/comedy ever recorded.
I encourage you look and listen deeper into the Zappa discography. Again, I am not criticizing you, I've just noticed that kind of reaction many times before (and feel it is my duty to put his music and lyrics in a truer context). Aside from being the Beethoven of our time, he was a brutal political voice (in a good way, as you did reference), and, he absolutely despised most Republicans and every hypocritical, self-serving part of their message and platform. Of course, I wish he were still alive today, for his music and his political acumen, not as much for songs about Doggy Wee-Wee. Uncle Meat is much better silliness than Apostrophe. The Mothers were as brilliant as FZ.
Eskimo=Palin, I get it now. Brilliant.
hmm, old enough to have voted for McGovern in '72 which I have mentioned a couple times. Hint: the voting age was changed to (18) in '71. Also mentioned was in the 4th grade when JFK was assassinated :( you do the math.
My 8th grade graduation party was the day after Bobby Kennedy was shot ...
The Mothers were great and Zappa was a very underrated guitar player as he could jam for 20 straight minutes and not skip a beat, also an underrated Jazz artist, but there's something about 'Apostophe' that appealed to my snarkiness, plus the fact on one of my Med cruises in the navy, one of the guys on my detachment played the album over and over and over again and it just grew on me.
My favs were the Kinks, The Who, The Doors, Dylan, who were also snarky. and Cream, Beatles, Stones.
(2) other underrated albums were 'Beggar's Banquet' and 'Exile on Main St.' for lovers of pure R&R and R&B. Big fan of Marvin Gaye and Steve Winwood also.
yea, old enough to know the #1 song of 1969 was 'Sugar, Sugar' by the Archies ;)
So if your a fan of the Mothers you must also be a fan of The Fugs!, I digress.
Different strokes for different folks, weird scenes inside the goldmine, what a longgg, strange trip it's been, you cannot! petition the lord w/prayer, living is easy w/eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
Highway 61 Revisited is another fave.
so many albums, so little time ...
Haa HAA! That's great- I was 2 in 1972, so you got a few years on me. My high school physics teacher, an old hippie (in Colorado Springs of all places!) told me I was born 20 years too late.
I am a total Who fanatic, moreso even than Zappa (well...)
The Who of that era were the rawest, purest rock band ever- mostly because of their insane drummer, of course. I just got At Kilburn 1977- Moon is a little tiny bit sloppy, yet, still beyond description. I went on Quadrophenia tour in 1996. Gotta picture of me with The Ox in a tiny Irish Pub on the Upper West Side holding a Guinness. Writing a book about that adventure.
ALL that energy is still alive. It never died, it never will. People only need uncover it, and, fittingly on the 40th anniversary of Woodstock, we need to recapture and renew it. Since when did taking care of our brothers and sisters become shameful and un-American? (of course, Zappa lampooned hippies almost as much as Republicans, yet those were in different epochs of his career. It must be that Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation were the more "radio playable" albums? (But, Dyn-A-mo Hum?))
I find it morbidly fascinating that one of the electoral strategies for the Left is the "inevitable demographic decline of the white voter" meme.
While I do not disagree with this at all (I live in Houston, Texas, by the way) I do not think that most Americans even in a massively pluralistic society like the one we will soon possess will for long tolerate a dysfunctional, bloated, ineffective, unresponsive, corrupt, one party nightmare scenario.
Imagine if the "California Dream" exemplified the entire nation.
The victory of the Left would be Pyrrhic.
After a few years of a California-style America and citizens of all stripes will be hemorrhaging away from the Democratic party.
Will they necessarily become Republicans?
Maybe not, but they will not instinctively become entrenched Democrats.
You are already - ALREADY! - seeing independents bleed away from the Democrats. This is with an improving economy and a largely uneventful first 6-7 months in office. No scandals. No terrorist attacks.
Why is that?
You mean to say that a few, loud, white-haired tea-baggers are knocking the Obama Machine back on their heels?
A New America as envisioned, lustfully, by Liberal Democrats where they have a permanent majority is fantasy.
An even more fragmented nation, politically, with a new wave of vigorous 3rd parties is more likely. I think that would be an awesome change.
GROG said...
@Meltdown in Maryland:
You're still blaming Bush for Obama's failed stimulus? August 15, 2009 8:28 PM
Yes buddy,
'cause is really hard unscramble scrambled eggs in 6 months.
but Obama is doing well,just wait...8 years...the same time you allowed to Dumbya...
;)
Dave Barnes said...
Nate,
The plural of scenario is scenari, not scenarios.
Travel to Italia and learn the language.
Grazie.
,dave
August 15, 2009 11:30 PM
Hi.
I am italian.
A real one.
I just think it's silly travelling to Italy just to learn the plural of "scenario",pheraps Sir Nate would prefer to visit Rome and have some "bucatini all'amatriciana".
...not to mention that they are speaking in english and the english plural for scenario is scenarios.
Prego.
Matador.
;)
jpindenver said...
@GROG
.
“We’ve averted the worst, and there are clear signs the stimulus is working,”
said Kenneth Goldstein, an economist at the Conference Board in New York.
August 15, 2009 11:19 PM
@GROGGY:
damn!
:)
Pragmatus said...
Stop
quoting
Rasmussen
poll
results.
Please wake up to the fact that Rasmussen is no longer a reliable pollster, but a PR machine for the GOP.
August 15, 2009 9:28 PM
Rasmusson = Zogby
plain and simple.
@Sir Nate,
IMHO you should listen to Pragmatus a little bit...
ciao.
;)
shiloh said...
My favs were the Kinks, The Who, The Doors, Dylan, who were also snarky. and Cream, Beatles, Stones.
August 16, 2009 4:10 AM
I would add, Pink Floyd,Genesis,Jethro Tull,Bob Marley,and...because I am latinossssss:
Carlos Santana !!!
Ciao.
;)
Psssst
I think the point of Nate's post there is that Rasmussen has terrible numbers that make no sense at the moment. I think thats easy to see given that Ras's Obama approval ratings are soooo out of whack with everyone elses.
Of course there is some value to Ras being so good at accurate at Presidential polls, and so much of a partisan hack when it comes to other polls. He can wave around his presidential polls and claim to be the most accurate pollster around, which then gives his partisan hack type polls more credibility. Credibility that they scarcely deserve.
Thanks for the explaination of how Rasmussen, which has become "the exclusive poller of the Right" (tm), can come up with results that are so far Right, and so out of step with other polling outfits.
Which is of course why they are so often quoted by the Right. They provide "Polls that make the Right smile".
Mike in Maryland,
I am not sure I follow. The change in media is why we rarely look back before 1948? By that logic we should not look back before the '80s and CNN started since cable clearly dominates the way we view media now.
I am not convinced for the simple reason that you haven't made clear how this change has affected the voter: are we more informed, less informed, more led by the nose, making more decisions on our own? I can't tell. Looking solely at the media influence it could be argued that newspapers then dominated the information far more than any single outlet does now, thus more able to sway opinions and control responses.
My point is not that many things haven't changed since the '30s (the media clearly, as well the power of machines, and increasing voter diversity) but that how we think and react to crises really has not changed much, and that to get a truer picture of voter frustration and fear we have to go back before 1940.
It's interesting how the echo chamber crowd is in complete denial about the growing disconnect between Obama's moderate campaign promises and his big left turn once elected. Given that, how can it be surprising that his popularity is dropping like a stone, especially as he appears unrepentant?
Nate's gradually working his way toward reality, and all that the haters want to do is to try to discredit the inputs. Regardless of disagreements over polling techniques, Rasmussen's results have foreshadowed everyone else's.
The canary in the coal mine that such discontent with statist overreach was the stock market meltdown based on fear of an endless series of economy-killing policy initiatives, and capitulating when congress passed a stimulus package that had no real stimulative power. Now, the market is recovering as it has become increasingly apparent that the leftist agenda is limp and unpassable.
The final insult to the majority of the electorate is this effort to villianize people who disagree with leftist policies and are now empowered to say so, loudly.
Regardless of the calls from the left to drive forward, the politicians are getting the message and will behave accordingly as a matter of self-preservation. There will be no more partisan legislation passed during this congress. Go pound sand.
Based on this morning's Sunday talk shows (as well as intrade) it appears that, for all intents and purposes, comprehensive health care/insurance reform with a public option, is dead.
I just think that the US is too big, too diverse, too fragmented for 'one size fits all' statist socialism.
I think that we are entering a new phase of American history, a New Federalism, if you will.
With Obama rapidly sputtering and wheezing to a flaccid Deval Patrick-esque steady state, I think citizens, left and right, are going to start agitate for increased state/local powers.
Finally, a great unspooling of centralized power away from DC is about to occur.
Americans are sick of the DC power nexus.
I bet that quite a few of the left-leaning posters on this blog are too.
Let's allow Vermont to be Lil' France and let's allow Texas to be...well, Texas.
Let's work together folks!
Pragmatus said...
Nate…
Stop
quoting
Rasmussen
poll
results.
If the RNC fed you a puff piece on Sarah Palin, would you feel obligated to reproduce it here? Of course not, because it would be blatant PR.
Please wake up to the fact that Rasmussen is no longer a reliable pollster, but a PR machine for the GOP.
Every time you post crap from him masquerading as news, you do a big favor to the GOP. Why don’t you treat his results the same way scientists treat results from experiments? They are not newsworthy, in fact they are not science, if they cannot be reproduced. A similar standard should apply to all these crackpot pollsters—if they come up with a haywire result, it’s garbage unless someone else comes up with it too.
Being fair does not mean you are obligated to disseminate lies and trash.
Nailed it.
Raspublican has become the Michael Vick of pollsters.
Individual races are one thing (even Raspublican . But party favorability is another.
Apparently, there's low enthusiasm for both parties at this point, yet Dems still have the advantage going into 2010. But all that won't mean shit if they don't get moving on their signature issues before President Obama's first State of the Union address.
Wow, ytownMetz, you're full of shit.
If anti-big government sentiment is so high right now, how come CASH FOR CLUNKERS is hugely popular with the public? Isn't that a HUGE government programme? As long as they see the benefits, the majority Americans don't give a shit if it's big government or not. That's a fact.
Only yesterday in Colorado, President Obama for the first time started reminding the electorate that he's cut taxes for the middle class, his healthcare plan will be payed for, unlike Bush and conservative Republicans, who for 8 years didn't pay for anything and created the deficit Obama and the Dems inherited. As for the GOOD Democrats, if they were so fiscally conservative, how come every Blue Dog voted with Bush for his unpayed agenda? These people don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to fiscal responsibility.
Wingnuts are priceless. You gotta love they're rewriting of recent American history. Clinton-Gore inherits a huge deficit from REAGAN-Bush, Bush-Cheney inherits a huge surplus from Clinton-Gore. Now Obama inherits a MAMMOTH deficit and a nation on the brink of another depression. Yet, even after a few cock-ups by the treasury and missed opportunities, Obama has pulled America from the brink in the first 6 months of his presidency. JOBS is the bottom line of course, but if the next report confirms what we saw last week, he has something to build on. Imagine if McCain and The Quitter were in the White House right now...
"I don't care how low they drive support for this with misinformation. The minute the president signs this bill, his approval will go up. Within a year, when the good things begin to happen, and the bad things they're saying will happen don't happen, approval will explode."
-- Bill Clinton, quoted by The Economist, on President Obama's health care reform effort.
I think that's inevitable. But Obama's achilles heel is his cautious Tony Blair-esque, almost conservative approach to governing, particularly on domestic policy.
You don't get many opportunities to steamroll the opposition, and so far Obama has passed up every opportunity.
After three weeks of Dem Congress critters getting an earful from or evading thousands of pissed off constituents in the Tea Party movement, the Obama Administration and the centrist flank of the Democrat Party appears to be floating trial balloons with its leftist base to determine whether they will accept the elimination of the "public option" socialized government health insurance from the health care legislation and instead replace it with the GOP idea of health insurance co-ops:
Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius says Obama still believes there should be choice and competition" in the health insurance market - but that a public option is "not the essential element."
Obama has been pressing for the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's nearly 50 million uninsured. But he had not seen a not-for-profit co-op as sufficient to offer consumers choice and competition that would bring down the costs of private insurance.
Sebelius spoke on CNN's "State of the Union."
Republican Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama says a potential administration shift from a government-run health insurance to a privately run cooperative is something that opponents like him should consider.
Shelby is a vocal opponent of the health care overhaul proposed by President Barack Obama. Shelby says he sees insurance co-ops as "a step away from the government take over of the health care system."
He says "that's something we should look at."
Democratic Sen. Kent Conrad of North Dakota has been pushing the co-op system as an alternative to a government-run public option to help cover the nation's nearly 50 million uninsured. Conrad says it's an idea that has worked well in other business models.
The senators appeared on "Fox News Sunday."
If the left agrees to drop the public option in exchange for a co-op plan, Obama could have a bipartisan health care bill on his desk by the middle of September. However, I have a hard time seeing the left relent on the "public option" because it is very likely their last best hope for imposing socialized health care on America for the next generation. This is the most significant foothold the left has had in the White House and Congress since the LBJ's Great Society. That foothold is almost certain to start slipping away with substantial losses in Congress during the 2010 off year election. For socialized health care, this is a do or die moment. Thus, it is possible the Dems will start their own civil war over health care this fall between the party's left base and its center-right Blue Dog wing.
Stay tuned!
BDP, President Obama has never made a public option a must in the Healthcare Bill. (one of the reason I would posit that not all Dems are happy with Obama's handling of the issue). But I don't think anything Richard Shelby says should hold much weight with the White House, thats not to say his ideas don't have some merit.
Kent Conrad can push anything all he wants, and a cooperative system is not without merit. But I still prefer a public option. What is not being put forward is a government monopoly of health care. I don't personally see how a cooperative system would guarantee the availability of coverage to the non insured Americans?
I love how the right likes to play up the debate in the Democratic Party over health care. What it says to me is that health care is an important issue for Democrats. I don't think many Republicans could have a genuinely original though about healthcare if they tried!!
markymark:
The problem with quoting good or bad polling of approval numbers is that no one will ever be held accountable.
There is a final accountability in elecection polling because we have an election. Rasmussen was clearly the most accurate.
If 15 pollsters are wrong and 1 is right, does that mean the 1 is actually wrong because it disagrees with the 15 wrong ones.?
PorridgeGun said...
"I don't care how low they drive support for this with misinformation.
The minute the president signs this bill, his approval will go up. Within a year, when the good things begin to happen, and the bad things they're saying will happen don't happen, approval will explode."
-- Bill Clinton, quoted by The Economist, on President Obama's health care reform effort.
I think that's inevitable.
But Obama's achilles heel is his cautious Tony Blair-esque, almost conservative approach to governing, particularly on domestic policy.
You don't get many opportunities to steamroll the opposition, and so far Obama has passed up every opportunity.
August 16, 2009 11:27 AM
Well said.
And Bill Clinton is right.
sign that damn bill mister President.
And as "shiloh" stated several times:
when you are in command,command !!!!
ciao Porridge .
;)
GROG, the problem is that when there is 1 pollster ridiculously out of step with EVERYONE else, then it is hard to make a case that it is correct. Its impossible to say what level of approval Obama has in anyway that proves the numbers. But you have 1 pollster hammering Obama, and all the others giving Obama historically fairly normal figures.
Add that to the skewy polling on issues that Nate points to, and you get a picture of a pollster more interested in pushing a political line rather than one trying to reflect reality.
I would disagree that Obama is being cautious in the same way Blair was. (Cautious though he may be). I think Blair genuinely wanted to govern solidly from the centre. I think his caution was about not turning back the tide of Thatcherism. I think Obama's caution is about getting reform right. Blair never attempted anything as brave as this healthcare reform. The saddest thing for about Blair was his lack of attempting anything major at all, beyond increased funding for public services. In a lot of ways Blair did not really change Britain that much at all. Obama is setting about making changes, but is trying to use a consensual model to do so I believe.
Todd,
"Rasmussen comes into line with the other pollsters in the final week or so of polling."
Your statement is unsupported. The reality is that Rasmussen's numbers were significantly more stable than Daily Kos/Research 2K and much more accurate than the hilarious Gallup tracking poll.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/how_did_we_do
"Down the stretch, the race was remarkably stable. Rasmussen Reports showed Obama receiving either between 50% of the vote and 52% for the last 40 days of Election 2008. The ranged tightened a bit during the final two weeks--Obama received either 51% or 52% of the vote on 13 of the last 14 days.
For McCain, the numbers stayed between 44% and 47% of the vote for the final forty days of the campaign. He was at 46% or 47% of the vote every day for the final nine days of the tracking poll.
This consistency is important because it reflects the reality around us. When it comes to selecting a President, the overwhelming majority of Americans do not change their minds on a daily basis. Any poll showing volatility should automatically be viewed with caution.
The final major event of Election 2008 was the Wall Street meltdown following the collapse of Lehman Brothers. By late September, the campaign looked just as it did on Election Day. On every day but one of the final 40 days, Rasmussen Reports showed Obama with a 4 to 8 point lead, neatly bracketing the actual result reflected in our final poll."
Todd,
If you want to talk about instability and a pollster coming into line the final week of polling, look no further than Research 2K/Daily Kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/trendlines
So as of October 11, Obama led McCain by 13 but somehow that gap closed to 5 points in its final pre-election poll?
Sarah Palin was a -25 in terms of net favorables/unfavorables on October 24th and somehow jumped to -11 in its final pre-election poll?
You tell me which pollster was more stable between Rasmussen and Daily Kos/Research 2K.
@ytownMetz:
The deficit and fiscal issues will be a major issue come 2010 for the Democrats with all this spending. Although it wasn't an outspoken concern of the Dems in 2006, they did win that year because of the big spending Republicans.
Do you really think so?
Do you think it was the deficit that flipped the Senate and the House?
I think it was the Iraq War, combined with the Republican incompetence which was manifest in Hurricane Katrina. (Those, and Allen's delicious "macaca" blunder.)
Walker said...
I find it morbidly fascinating.
You are already - ALREADY! - seeing independents bleed away from the Democrats. This is with an improving economy and a largely uneventful first 6-7 months in office. No scandals. No terrorist attacks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Find it morbidly fascinating that one continues to troll. ok, that's an obvious lie, trolls do what trolls do, they troll forever and spin, spin, spin forever ...
Also, as I've discussed previously Walker, unlike cheney who is supposedly hoping/praying for another terrorist attack, that is the last thing trolls, or criminals like cheney should be doing because if there is another terrorist attack, the country, as per usual, always rallies round the C-in-C and his party.
If there's a terrorist attack Nov. 1, 2010, most incumbents will be re-elected and if it were to happen on Nov. 1, 2012, Obama would win in a gigantic! landslide.
America always rallies 'round the president after a major disaster, except Katrina when cheney/bush were clueless/prejudiced take your pick. How else would someone who was elected electorally, but not by popular vote attain an approval rating of 90%.
This is political reality!
So please, continue to troll/spin on all every other subject, but stop talking about another terrorist attack, as it is the worst case scenario for the party of No!
take care
p.s. independents don't bleed away, that's why were independents! whereas it is true many Reps have already "bled" away from their party to become independents. And so it goes ...
TommyReport:
Fair enough. I'll retract my post.
2009-2010 Governors
2009- NJ and VA go Republican.
2010-
Republicans will hold on to
AL- (a non Roy Moore candidate)wins the primary)-defeating Arthur Davis in the General.
AK- Sean Parnell wins a first full term.
CT-
GA- Nathan Deal defeats Roy Barnes.
ID-
NE-
SC- Gresham Barrett.
SD- Dennis Duaggard
TX- whoever wins the GOP primary
UT- Gary Herbert-wins Special election.
VT
Republicans will pick up.
KS- Sam Brownback
MI- Mike Cox
OK- Mary Fallin
PA- Jim Gerlach
TN- Zack Wamp
Democrats will hold on to
AR
CO
IL- whoever wins the Democratic Primary(Quinn vs Hynes)
IA
ME
MD
MA- Patrick wins in a 3 way primary. Anti Patrick votes split.
NH
NM- Diane Denish
NY- If Cuomo or Suozzi is the nominee.
OH
OR
WI- Barbara Lawton
WY- If Fredenthal is permitted to run again.
Democrats will pick up.
AZ- Goddard
CA- Brown
FL- Sink
HI- Ambercrombie
MN- Ryback or Gaetner
NV-
RI- Dem Nominee or Chafee.
Battleground State for the Governorships are.
NY-(if Patterson is the nominee). Redistricting.
FL-
PA-
OH-
MI-
There is still hope for constructive health reform, and there are plenty of good ideas out there that would increase access, increase competition, and empower consumers without the heavyhanded reform approach that cannot gather support.
It is good to see Sebelius signal giving up on the public option, which is incompatible with market-based reforms, and inextricably as a trojan horse for single payor.
Obama should take a page from Bill Clinton's playbook of taking credit for welfare reform despite it not being the leftist's wet dream. Let's hope they're becoming more interested in reform that wouldn't dismantle what's good about our system rather than this being just a tactical retreat and misdirection.
TommyReport: You're comparing apples to oranges...Well...apples to applesauce, at least.
If McCain switches between 44% and 47%, and Obama goes between 50% and 52%, then Obama leads between 3% and 8% (Of voters). Note that's a 5% difference. Also note that from 13% to 5% is a 7% difference.
Now I'm not comparing identical values, obviously, and 7% is higher than 5%, but case isn't quite as clear cut as you present it.
2010 US Senate.
6 OPEN Republican seats.
FL,KS,KY,MO,NH,and OH.
Republicans will lose MO and hold on to FL and KS.
2 OPEN Democratic Seats
DE and IL
Democrats will hold on to IL.
If the Republicans want to gain seats in the US Senate. They need to hold onto
1)KS- Moran or Tiahrt
2)FL- Crist
3)KY- Grayson
4)OH- Portman
5)NH- Ayotte
Pick up
1)PA- Toomey
2)CT- Simmons
3)DE- if Castle runs
+2R
NH and OH are likely to go Democratic.
DE- Castle is more likely to retire than run for the US Senate.
That leaves us CT and PA.
Republicans have vulnerable incumbents in NC(Burr)
DEMS gain 1-2 seats in the US Senate.
If this is true, then the crybabies have won. There will never be honest health care reform in this country. We are in for even more complication that we already have, to the sole benefit of the insurance companies. Under any bill that is signed now people will be screwed in new and more sophisticated ways, costs will continue to explode (remember that insurance company overhead waste tops $300 billion a year) and within ten years the economy will be in such a mess we will look like Bolivia.
Thanks go to the spineless Democrats, from the administration on down.
Oh, and by the way, knuckling under to the GOP on health insurance reform has guaranteed that President Obama’s effectiveness as president is probably over.
Gee, what was the purpose of the 50-state strategy? Now I see why Governor Dean was muscled out of the Democratic Party power structure. He was the only Democrat with balls, something nobody else in the party can see the advantage of.
Corporate America has won once more. They are probably now too powerful to ever challenge again.
Oh, by the way, this means that Social Security will be the next thing destroyed by the ranters and screamers from the GOP. Within seven years the retirement age will boosted to 70, benefits slashed, and a provision written into law that permanently shields those making more than $100k from ever paying their full share into the system. Then the remnants of Social Security will be chipped away bit by bit, until it is completely eliminated the next time the Republicans have control of the levers of power, which will happen just as soon as the economy recovers.
Doesn’t matter to me. I have a steady income and health coverage to more than last the rest of my life. And it’s pointless to worry, or even think about anybody else, because there’s nothing, ever, that will change in the way this country operates from this day forward.
Intrade is now reporting "passage of a comprehensive government run health care plan" at 15%.
Ways I will be celebrating:
* Listening to Prince and the Revolution's Purple Rain start to finish
* Watching the "beach scene" in Saving Private Ryan three times in a row
* Picking up and kissing my authentic, signed Jesse Helms head-shot photo
* Drinking a six-pack of Shiner Boch
* Re-reading Whittaker Chamber's WITNESS, pages 222-253
* Making sweet, sweet love to my olive-skinned super hot wife
How do you guys plan in celebrating???
Rasmussen seems to be in the business of creating polling data which is highly marketable to Republicans. They seem to come up with these edge-of-the-range results a large amount of the time, even though paying attention to the predictive value of their model would have long since motivated some serious tweaking. It apparently pays to promulgate the Republican-skewed version of the numbers, at least moreso than trying to get it right. I shouldn't be surprised, since most service markets include opportunities for niche offerings to succeed.
Independents, moderates, progressives, and thinking conservatives do not trust the GOP, period.
A party of no ideas, illiterate people screaming, and liars is going nowhere but down. It won't be long before GOP numbers are south of 20%.
Pragmatus, with any luck, you're mostly right.
I'm going to celebrate this Dem puss-out by getting strongly behind a real progressive to take over for Jim Doyle as governor of Wisconsin in 2010. We'll need real leadership at the state and local levels if the feds are going to allow insurance companies to jack these levels of government with 15%increases next year. Increases our taxes have to pay for.
In the real world, people know that the system does not work as it should. When polls are asked properly (i.e. "Do you think the status quo in health care is acceptable?") reform wins out.
It's ON now. Screw the screamers and the paid-off minions on angry-man radio. The real America that works and has other things going on wants something done, and bailing on this is the surest (and probably only) way that Blue Dogs lose in 2010. These people must be pushed left for their own good, in order to do the job they were VOTED IN TO DO.
Why the Dems wimp out and let the GOP off the hook instead of having the debate we deserve bewilders me. Is Washington that much of a bubble that they think ignorant and fearful Senior Citizens and Astroturf whining is anything other than a fringe group that doesn't come close to representing America's present and future?
Walker said...
Intrade is now reporting "passage of a comprehensive government run health care plan" at 15%.
Ways I will be celebrating:
* Watching the "beach scene" in Saving Private Ryan three times in a row
* Making sweet, sweet love to my olive-skinned super hot wife
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
??? watching soldiers die on Omaha beach to preserve freedom so losers/fools like you can continue to whine/spin on the net! Interesting dichotomy.
hmm, if one really has an olive-skinned super hot wife, why is he spending soooo much time trolling at political blogs. Just sayin'
Walker, there are liars, really, really bad liars and then there are Walter Mitty trolls like you to give the rest of us comic relief. Thanx for not disappointing.
btw, when you pleasure yourself, do you scream Ronald Reagan at climax!
take care
Shiloh, if I can't convince you to join the GOP, the most I can do is at least make you laugh.
What actually comes tumbling out of my gap-jawed trembling maw at "peak season" is not "Ronald Reagan" but instead "tax cuts!".
Sometimes, "tort reform" too if the mood is right and lit votive candles have been tastfully sprinkled about my manse.
Walker said...
Shiloh, if I can't convince you to join the GOP, the most I can do is at least make you laugh.
What actually comes tumbling out of my gap-jawed trembling maw at "peak season" is not "Ronald Reagan" but instead "tax cuts!".
Sometimes, "tort reform" too if the mood is right and lit votive candles have been tastfully sprinkled about my manse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanx for admitting you're a liar, that's a start.
And re: discussing politics as was discussed ad nauseam at the other political forum I used to frequent, no one ever changes their political philosophy by debating/discussing current affair issues at a political blog on the net.
Which makes most of this discussion meaningless and pointless as everyone has their own agenda and some, more than others want to be heard above the crowd.
Nothing new under the sun as the divide between left and right can't get much wider.
The truth will set you free!
and yea, comic relief makes you smile, always a good thing. ;)
Beav, you're right. The GOP needs a makeover to keep from suffering further declining support. Its decline isn't because people have moved away from conservatism, it's that the GOP has moved away from the people.
For too long, the GOP leadership, beginning with the era of Bush the Elder, has sacrificed the conservative principles upon which this country was founded and under which the GOP prospered in the effort to compete with Dems for votes. That fool's gold quest has diluted the traditional conservative message, turning it into Dem-lite in too many key aspects. Consequently, the GOP acceded to more big government, and was a willing participant in out-of-control spending growth. The denouement was a presidential candidate in McCain who could not attract moderate votes or even the RINOs like Colin Powell who had pined for such a candidate.
There is the beginning of a conservative ascendency in the GOP again, just as in the post-Nixon era. The rebellion against the prospect of socialized health care has awakened it, just as it did in 1994 before the Gingrich congress lost its way.
There is high likelihood that a basic, coherent conservative message will do much better in attracting moderate voters, akin to the Reagan Democrats. That is already evident in the principled opposition to other overreaching initiatives this year, like cap and trade and porkulus.
Evidence of the latent vote-getting power lies in the little noticed shift in the big Gallup self-identification poll released earlier this summer, which is completely at odds with what would be expected based on the sizable gains the Dems have made in congress. This year, the proportion of people identifying their politcal views as conservative has risen from 37% to 40% -- nearly double those who identify as liberal, whose proportion has dropped from 22% to 21%.
The lesson is that reaching those moderates requires more than just a "me-too, but less" set of policies -- it requires better articulation of conservative principles that promote growth, prosperity and security.
Off topic, but a real question none the less. given the penchant for accurate citations by the posting bloggers, what is the citation for the quotation, "When you are in command, command!", stated to havve been made by Halsey to Nimitz in WWII? I don't see it in the standard quotations references, and find it unlikely that a junior officer would have said that particular quote to his superior. Please note that Halsey as a task force and theater commander was subordinate to Admirals Kimmel and Nimitz for the whole of WWII.
Obama lost a lot of trust among mainstream Americans early on with the passage of the stimulus bill. He rushed it through so no one had time to read it or scrutinize it. We were told it could not wait another day. It had to be signed NOW. Unemployment would not go above 8.5% and it would have an immediate impact on the economy. The bill turned out to be nothing more than pork spending. There is no stimulus. The bill has been a complete disaster.
He then tried to do the same thing with healthcare. He tried to rush it through so no one would be able to read it and so there would be no debate. But Americans would not allow it this time. The left has had a complete meltdown, trying to blame everyone for the bill's failure but themselves. And now the bill is practically dead. These have been extraordinary events to witness.
GbThrone, it was Nimitz to Halsey, not Halsey to Nimitz. It's a standard quotation in management consulting circles, but like many quotations, is sometimes misattributed. Here's a citation for it from HBR:
http://hbr.harvardbusiness.org/2009/01/watch-that-next-step-its-a-big-one/ar/1
@Rudy,
You are absolutely right. The Republican party left me, I didn't leave the Republican party.
"This notion that the Republican party has moved so far to the right that they're losing support is ridiculous.
This year, the proportion of people identifying their politcal views as conservative has risen from 37% to 40% -- nearly double those who identify as liberal, whose proportion has dropped from 22% to 21%."
It's amazing how this information is never brought up on this website or in the mainstream media.
Great post Rudy.
GROG, Rudy, first off self identification of political views is a fairly pointless exercise. I think a lot of people would think of themselves as being conservative, whilst supporting a public option for healthcare, as an example.
That being said, the rightward swing of the GOP is very dangerous for it as a party.
GROG, you claim Obama has lost trust with a lot of mainstream Americans. Well his approval rating are above 50% generally at the moment. Losing trust with mainstream America is approval ratings bottoming out below 40%. This time last year in fact we had a President who had lost mainstream America. Obama is getting opposition from those who never supported him in the first place.
markymark:
I should have said Americans are losing trust in his policies and his political tactics.
But you are right. He's a likable guy and his approval ratings, although down drastically, are still somewhat high.
Rudy said...
GbThrone, it was Nimitz to Halsey, not Halsey to Nimitz. It's a standard quotation in management consulting circles, but like many quotations, is sometimes misattributed. Here's a citation for it from HBR:
http://hbr.harvardbusiness.org/2009/01/watch-that-next-step-its-a-big-one/ar/1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, in the movie 'Midway' Halsey was just repeating the Nimitz quote back to him, that Nimitz made to Halsey at an earlier time.
As in, Nimitz, you told me When you are in command, command! ie a Nimitz quote.
Now that we have settled this minutia lol wouldn't it be great if everyone had to give an "accurate citation" for all their stupid, ad nauseam opinions.
4 out of 5 dentists prefer Crest toothpaste ;)
Our very astute student of politics Mr. dePalma said...
If the left agrees to drop the public option in exchange for a co-op plan, Obama could have a bipartisan health care bill on his desk by the middle of September.
Let's see. Congress returns to the Hill on September 8. They then have to debate and reconcile various bills in EACH chamber. That will take at least a week - remember the GOOPers are telling us to 'slow it down'. Of course, the Senate Finance Committee has already stated that they won't have a bill ready for the Senate to discuss until September 15 or later. So we can figure the Senate, after getting the Senate Finance Committee won't start it's debate until after September 15 - Remember the GOOPers will DEMAND that they have time to read the bill, and of course, that will take about a week. So figure the Senate to start debating the bills, probably for a week or son, on or about September 22, at the earliest.
Then the two chambers will have a conference committee. Since it's urgent, but not emergency, legislation, the conference committee will start discussions somewhere around October 1, and to last at least two or three days.
Then the conference committee bill and report will go to both chambers, where again, the GOOPers will demnd that they be given time to read the bill.
Maybe by October 14, we can expect the two chambers to debate and vote on the conference committee bill, then it has to be engraved (if you don't know what that means in a legislative sense, our very astute student of politics Mr. dePalma, look it up) to be presented to the President for signature.
Of course, if one chamber or the other makes even one change in the bill (adding, moving or deleting a comma, for example), the bill has to be redebated and revoted on by each chamber.
So the best scenario I see is the bill could be presented to President Obama sometime in the middle of October.
And the above estimate is based on GOOPer cooperation (grudging though it may be), with no outright GOOPer attempts to outright kill the legislation, which is more likely and will add several weeks to the process.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
markymark wrote:
"That being said, the rightward swing of the GOP is very dangerous for it as a party."
I just don't buy this so called "rightward swing". The party has always stood for things like small government, belief in the individual, capitolism, right to life, traditional marriage, strong national defense etc.
If anything, the party abandoned too many of its conservative principles in recent years.
Marky, speaking of citations, do you have any evidence to support your assertion that someone could logically view themselves as conservative, yet support the so-called public option? I'm not saying it couldn't happen in certain instances, but if so, I'd opine that it would be most likely in a case where someone didn't really understand the ramifications, i.e., the trojan horse effect.
That's why the articulation of conservative principles, which is largely a lost art among GOP party operatives, is so critical to getting people to understand that the knee-jerk emotive response to such a proposal is shortsighted.
It may be correct to assert that many of those who support liberal politicians prefer to view themselves as moderates and operate mostly on emotive response rather than ay strongly-held views. Again, that's something that better articulation of conservative principles could reverse.
The current climate represents a nadir for the democrats. People are stressed because of the economy and the GOP has been quite successful with their propaganda campaign against health care.
But as the economy is already showing signs of improvement, it's highly unlikely that the recovery won't be in full swing by the time the 2010 elections roll around. As the GOP as whole did everything they could to stop this legislation, the Dems will be able to take full credit for the recovery.
While I imagine that the GOP will regain a few seats, the improved economic mood will prevent them from coming anywhere close to taking control of the house.
Rudy said...
Marky, speaking of citations, do you have any evidence to support your assertion that someone could logically view themselves as conservative, yet support the so-called public option? I'm not saying it couldn't happen in certain instances, but if so, I'd opine that it would be most likely in a case where someone didn't really understand the ramifications, i.e., the trojan horse effect.
-------------------------------------
I don't have to time search for the article, but I believe it was written here in the past few weeks.
While its true that 40% of Americans will describe themselves as conservative, if you as them about their actual policy preferences they tend to be center left.
Nate, don't you think it would be good to have some equalization in congress?
The reason the teabag demographic is so shrill and so loud is they are very nearly voiceless.
In a famous pre-election post notorious conservative Scott Orson Card stated that the left owned the media, the arts, acadame, film, television and technology. But this was balanced by the right's ownership of congress and the office of the chief exec.....and talk-radio!
All the right has anymore is talk-radio and FOXnews.
That is why they are so loud and so shrill....they are nearly completely disenfranchised from our culture.
I think the framers wanted a sort of equal balance, a tension of egalitarian representation.....they were very balanced themselves.
I think if the scales tip back a bit the right might be able to get sane.
;)
The poster who drinks watered down wine said...
The [stimulus] bill turned out to be nothing more than pork spending.
One third of the bill was TAX CUTS.
So the poster who drinks watered down wine, you are admitting that each and every tax cut is pork. (statement, not question)
YOU stated it, I just repeated what you said. But I'm glad that you admit that tax cuts (at least as practiced by the GOOPers) are nothing but pork (for the rich, the richer, and the uber-rich).
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
So the poster who drinks watered down wine, you are admitting that each and every tax cut is pork. (statement, not question)
Giving a check for $600 to everyone, including people who do not pay taxes, is not a tax cut.
@Meltdown in Maryland:
I'm sure the $600 tax credit will really get the economy humming along. And the AMT patch, that will undoubtedly create millions of new jobs.
Matoko,
1. The person you cited is Orson Scott Card, not the mishmash you made of his name.
2. Orson Scott Card is an admitted conservative (a Mormon to boot), and so will spin anything and everything so as to make the conservatives look undefeatable when that is to the conservative's advantage, and "Alas, woe is me" when that is to the conservative's advantage.
3. It may be Orson Scott Card's opinion that "the left owns the media, the arts, acadame, film, television and technology."
So it is the left, not Reverend Moon, that owns the Washington Times? That would be news to Reverend Moon.
So it is the left that controls News Corp, and thus Twentieth Century Fox Studios, the Fox television Network, the New York Daily News, Faux News Channel, Fox Business Network, Fox College Sports, Fox Movie Channel, FX Networks, SPEED Channel, The Wall Street Journal, Dow Jones & Company, and many, many more? That would be news to Rupert Murdoch.
So it is the left, not the Smith family, who owns Sinclair Broadcast Group, the corporation that owns the largest number of television stations in the US (57 right now)? That would be news to David Smith and his three brothers.
I could find several people who believe that Hitler was a great person, who was moral, and who really, really, really, really tried not to start WWII. Would that make them creditable?
As to the assertion that liberals own "film [and] television":
- John Wayne was a liberal?
- Chuck Norris is a liberal?
- Charlton Heston was a liberal?
- Fred Thompson is a liberal?
- Bruce Willis is a liberal?
- Tom Selleck is a liberal?
- Bo Derek is a liberal?
- Ted Nugent is a liberal?
- Fred Grandy is a liberal?
- Regis Philbin is a liberal?
- Etc., etc., etc.
So, do you REALLY think "the left owns the media, the arts, acadame, film, television and technology"?
And if you're quoting someone, you make yourself much more creditable if you get their name at least somewhat correct if you are not providing a direct quote, and/or direct citation to that quote.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Polling statistics are great for seeing a month into the future for a campaign. Kinda sucky for seeing farther than that, pardon me, Nate. Yet, I read you with a devotion unheard of for me, at least for things internet related.
Complex campaigns, like for health care reform, where there are no two candidates and the question can't even begin to summarize that:
Profitcare insurance gets in between patients and doctors thousands of times a day.
Profitcare insurance rations healthcare for thousands of patients every day.
Profitcare insurance will not cover most individuals or small businesses employers and employees with preexisting conditions at any cost.
Profitcare insurance premiums have doubled in less than 10 years.
Profitcare insurance profits have gone up 500% in less than 10 years.
Profitcare insurance loses profits every time it pays a claim so their intended function is a fundamental conflict of interest.
Profitcare insurance costs American families $1,100 more in premiums because when the uninsured do get ill they usually need to go to the ER.
Defending this system is not only illogical but criminal.complexity, let alone truly capture the
Mike is wrong, there is only one bill that has been voted on currently in Congress and that is the one that was approved by the House Committee. All of the other 'bills' are just vaporware at the moment since only the House committee has assumed a finished-enough form to merit a vote.
The stimulus bill will go down as an expensive disaster. Obama made the massive mistake of letting Congress write the bill and it is the worst of all worlds. The spending for "shovel-ready" projects is an appalling 12% of the bill and the 30% tax cuts are mostly useless .. the $80 billion for the AMT patch and the $400/$800 reduction over the year is far too small and too slow to help the economy. In addition, the money is trickling out and has even slowed further recently. With so little money spent on jobs out of the stimulus thus far, it would have been better to pass no stimulus than the one out that came out of Congress. The cap-and-trade bill is a lobbyist's dram and the health-care bill is a nightmare of inconsistencies and faulty and obtuse reasoning. The current health care system may be poor to middling but if anything like the House bill is passed, it will be an unmitigated DISASTER.
As it is, Rasmussen might be even underestimating the potential disaster that might be befalling our party come 2010 (the similarities to 1994 are amazing). The two likely scenarios are as follows:
1) Democrats lose 15-20 House seats in 2010, Pelosi continues as Speaker and Obama get defeated in 2012 due to the toxicity of Pelosi (the swastikas comment is probably the coup de grace on her effectiveness from here on out .. even in NJ she is considered a severe impediment to Obama's agenda).
2) Democrats lose 30+ House seats and either Pelosi is replaced as Speaker or the Republicans win enough seats to get an outright majority. In which case, Obama's better angels may take over and he will cruise to an easy win in 2012.
I over wrote myself- see, it's so complex!
"The party has stood for small government..." except for the Pentagon and defecit spending and wanting to legislate morality, ya, that's real small government, GROG.
"Mainstream America lost confidence...blah blah blah.....stimulus is nothing more than prok spending...complete disaster..." Utter bullshit and typical "conservative" cynicism.
What is it you're trying to conserve? Rationed care dictated behind closed doors of private insurers instead of transparent oversight by the government? Guess what We The People means Government by the People, and you guys just don't get that a country of 300+ million needs a We The People government of proper size to deal with complex issues like health care. Up to now, all we've had is Disease Management and Death Care.
Bill Frist, a physician and former Senate Republican majority leader from Tennessee, responded with what has become the conservative line: that "we do have the best health care" and what Americans principally need is "insurance reform" rather than improved health care practices. Later in the program were video clips of what host Wolf Blitzer termed "conservatives" disrupting town hall meetings on health care reform. Clearly, the prospect of change in health care is highly emotional and disturbs many people.
But here's my question: Since when is it conservative to embrace new, overpriced, corrupt systems, like the health-destroying and ruinously expensive protocols of much of modern medicine? "Conservative" has several meanings, but two central ones are "favoring traditional views and values," and "avoiding excess."
I hold that nothing could be more wild, unconstrained, and downright liberal than the path medicine has taken in just the last 20 years -- an unprecedented bacchanalia of excess and contempt for traditional American values.
Pharmaceuticals, once just one of many therapeutic modalities, are now synonymous with medical care; more than half of all insured Americans are taking prescription medicines for chronic health problems. Medical journals, formerly bastions of objectivity, are today often ghostwritten shills for moneyed interests. And physicians, once free to make healing their only goal, must now obey the dictates of lawyers and stockholders by ordering endless tests and dangerous, dubious surgeries for even minor conditions.
While billions of dollars are shunted into very few pockets via such abuses, insurance premiums skyrocket, leaving 47 million Americans with no coverage. The result of medicine's libertine spree? The relief agency Remote Area Medical, established to bring health care to rural parts of third-world nations, now sends 60 percent of its missions to U.S. cities such as Los Angeles, California and Knoxville, Tennessee.
"I just don't buy this so called "rightward swing". "
The Republican Party (and the Democratic Party for that matter) has swung so far to the right that the guy most Republicans worship would likely be rejected by their Party today. Ronald Reagan raised taxes, cut and ran in Lebanon, and signed a big amnesty for illegals. Any of these three things would get you banned for life from today's Republican Party.
And, Nixon signed the CCA and NEPA and established the EPA under his watch. I can't imagine those things would be too popular in today's Republican Party.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/14/health/main4094632.shtml?source=related_story
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/health/research/05ghost.html?_r=2&emc=eta1
http://www.ramusa.org/
Yeah! CO Liberal! Taking the Rockies back! Colorado Blue Sky, baby!
I guess Newt doesn't have his head burrowed up his wife-dumping ass entirely:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32413543/ns/politics-white_house/
Pragmatus said:
"Oh, and by the way, knuckling under to the GOP on health insurance reform has guaranteed that President Obama’s effectiveness as president is probably over."
How is it that a Democratic Administration with a large majority in the House and a fillibuster-free Democratic Senate knuckled under to the GOP? If anything, the very liberal faction of the Democratic party knuckled under to the more moderate faction of the Democratic party.
NJ_Moderate said...
[Proving once again that the 'moderate' he/she/it sticks on his/her/its screen name is just window fressing, and he/she/it has NO concept of what he/she/it is parroting]
. . . there is only one bill that has been voted on currently in Congress and that is the one that was approved by the House Committee.
To start with, there are 20 Committees in the House, PLUS three joint Committees with the Senate, PLUS one Permanent Select Committee, PLUS one Select Committee. I believe that makes 25 Committees IN THE HOUSE.
Now, presuming that the so-called 'Moderate' is correct that only one House Committee has passed the bill, which one?
- The House Energy and Commerce Committee, which passed its version on July 31?
- The House Ways and Means Committee, which passed its version on July 16?
But, then, if only one committee has passed a bill through to the floor, and that one committee is a House committee, why would the New York Times report, on July 15, 2009 that "the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee approved a bill on Wednesday to revamp the nation’s health care system".
So that's THREE Committees, one of which is not even a House Committee, that have passed versions of the health care bill.
Also note, that there has been no formal debate of the bill(s) on the floor of either chamber, and will not be any debate of the bill(s) until Congress returns to session on September 8 AND all committees of each respective chamber have reported their version of the bill.
You may think you are a 'moderate', and you might write that you are a 'moderate'. But you are not a person who does any research of their own, do you? It's just so much easier to parrot the talking points of Lush, Manthrax, O'LIElly, Sarahcuda, etc., isn't it?
Want to tell us who's wrong now?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Scott said...
Giving a check for $600 to everyone, including people who do not pay taxes, is not a tax cut.
No?
So why would the Wall Street Journal (that EXTREMELY liberal screed?) have a headline, on January 5, 2009, stating:
Obama Eyes $300 Billion Tax Cut
Huge Breaks for Firms, Individuals Are Aimed at Winning GOP Support for Stimulus?
(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123111279694652423.html)
The article goes on to state:
The Obama tax-cut proposals, if enacted, could pack more punch in two years than either of President George W. Bush's tax cuts did in their first two years. Mr. Bush's 10-year, $1.35 trillion tax cut of 2001, considered the largest in history, contained $174 billion of cuts during its first two full years, according to Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation. The second-largest tax cut -- the 10-year, $350 billion package engineered by Mr. Bush in 2003 -- contained $231 billion in 2004 and 2005.
And
The largest piece of tax relief in the new plan would involve cuts for people who pay income taxes or who claim the earned-income credit, a refund designed to lessen the impact of payroll taxes on low- and moderate-income workers.
And when the bill passed, it was larded with even more tax cut proposals to get just a smidgen of GOOPer support in the Senate to make it bipartisan.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
@Mindless in Maryland:
Congratulations on finding a positive article written a month and a half prior to the bill passing.
You think a $600 tax credit will create jobs? You think the AMT patch will create jobs? What job creating tax cuts are in the bill, Mindless in Maryland?
2 words for democRATS:
JESSE VENTURA
robogun said...
2 words for democRATS
Anyone fault me for labeling this TROLL as a TROLL?
Anyone want to argue with my calling the other (so-called) party, GOOPers?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
The one who drinks watered down wine said...
Congratulations on finding a positive article written a month and a half prior to the bill passing.
So you aver that the Wall Street Journal is a 'liberal rag'?
My God, you TROLL. Your political philosophy would make Attila the Hun's political philosophy be classified as screaming liberal.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Which ever party wins or loses seats, I do not trust the GOP. They care about party over country, are representing too many haters, and I would rather live in a REAL socialist nation - than the one they envision for us. No thanks. And, I AM a Republican.
Any party that would endorse, proliferate, and encourage lies and misrepresentation are NOT a party that this country needs . . . .
This is too hilarious, watching the right wing rage. Seriously, the underlying spite is painfully obvious.
But since I'm nice, a question:
Why do you think it is that no other industrialized nation expresses admiration for the US healthcare system?
Do you think our healthcare system works? Okay, that's two questions, but really, they haven't done anything other than complain, so fair's fair.
Mr. Holland,
I do not agree with your political party choice, but I can agree with your observations of the current Republican Party status.
When I first moved to Maryland, I actually was proud that it reflected a balanced Congressional delegation - four Democratic Representatives, four Republicans; and one Democratic Senator and one Republican. In fact, I voted for the Republican Senator (Charles 'Mac' Mathias) in 1974 and 1980, and possibly would have again voted for him in 1986 if he had not retired that year.
The current Party of NO!, though, has destroyed any possibility of me hoping for any success of that party unless and until they speak from a political point of view without lies and mischaracterizations, which I don't see happening for a while yet, if ever.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Communication is the key. Elected Democrats almost make it a point to NOT communicate. Obama thinks that he communicates because people applaud after he talks -- that's a bad measure, because we don't know what to do. After the blue sky speeches, we Progressive voters are often left to drift depending upon which way the media winds blow.
Republicans DO communicate. They isolate and personalize a problem, sell the fear, ask for committment, and tell their followers what to do. That's why they might win in 2010, even though Democrats still hold a majority of our hearts and minds.
So statistics are insightful and clarifying, but communication can win the game, and quickly; for Democrats. If they would only start.
sc
Truff, it's just as so many countries never miss an opportunity to denounce the US, but yet, ther eare few who esittate to emigrate here given the opportunity. Similarly, we don't send our people to other countries for health care, but so many come here.
All other health care systems have a lot to be grateful for from our health care system. Most innovations over the last 50 years in medical technology and drug development are a direct result of the US health system's ability and willingness to pay for their use once approved.
It has been a policy of our nation to subsidize world health and allow other nations to have access to these innovations, often at lower cost than we pay ourselves. We have encouraged further development and innovation via patent laws to protect intellectual property.
This US subsidy of world health has partially masked the gross shortsightedness of socialized medicine in other countries. It is frightening to think how much lesser the state of the art of medical care would be now had we followed the misguided example of England and others after WWII. Let's hope our children need not wonder the same in another generation.
fandango said...
Republicans DO communicate.
I guess if you call lies, mischaracterizations, and hypocrisy communication, you are correct.
However, since the definition of communication states that communication involves the transmission of information from one party to another, I don't consider lies, mischaracterizations, and hypocrisy to be communication, but nothing but lies, mischaracterizations, and hypocrisy.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Once Pennsylvanians learn the truth about Toomey, they will elect a Democrat to the Senate. Toomey is so far right that he makes Santorum look like a liberal.
There will be a major collapse in support for the DEM's nationwide if the "Public Option" is allowed to be dropped by team Obama and the the Blue Dog's in the Senate...The FDR "New Dealers" are a silent but massive undercurrent among DEM's...and they will NOT accept excuses from RAM and Team Obama if this opportunity for real change is "blown"...The GOP is gloating and the Drudge Report's mocking of the DEM's waving of the "white flag" of surrender is just one more "middle finger"...Let's hope Ram has some "cojenes" of steel like Congressman Waxman of California...and get's it DONE with the "Public Option"....There is NO issue more important for the future of the Democratic Party...NOT Iraq/Afganistan, Not the eCONomy, yadda, yadda, yadda...NO other issue will define the success (or Failure...) of this administration than the issue of "Public Option"...and DEM's and the GOP know this...no amount of "SPIN" will change this...
The president's party losing seat in midterms just cause it's a midterm is a pretty silly fact that keeps being repeated. If you look at this on a case by case basis there is a logical explanation for almost any time this happened.
1946- The wartime power losing support. Happened all across the world.
1950- Republicans gain support due to fallout over Korea
1954- The Democrats gain support due to fallout over the McCarthy hearings.
1958- Democrats gain due to fallout over Sputnik and the bad economy
1962- No large number of changes.
1966- Republicans gain due to fallout over Vietnam
1970-Fatigue from Vietnam leads to Democratic gains (only in the House mind you)
1974- Watergate.
1978- Economic problems help Republicans, plus gains from Watergate are finally reversed.
1982- The House members who rode in on a fluke with Reagan get voted back out. In the Senate where the Reagan coat tail riders were not up for election, Democrats only gained one seat.
1986- Regan tail riders get kicked out of the Senate. House gains are too small to be relevant.
1990- OK, this is one election that points towards midterm reversals, but even then it's extremly mild.
1994- A confluence of event occur and the nation's political compass switches, giving control to the Republicans.
1998- The Democrats gain in the house. Some midterm switch there.
2002- Republicans make extremely mild gains in both Houses. Hardly of note really, although it does contradict matters, albeit for obvious reasons.
2006- Democrats regain control due to a series of Republican scandals and a political movement away from the right.
Now obviously some of this factors might come into play for Obama, but to say that Republicans will gain merely because it's a midterm is not based up by much analytical evidence.
It is amazing to me that Social Security and Education polls better with Republicans!
How the heck can any voter with a brain think that the GOP can be trusted with Social Security? They have been wanting to end Social Security for years and if they get in power again you can be sure they will try.
Education too is something they want to completely privatize with vouchers. This will leave many students behind and make public education sink even lower.
Next year Obama will actually begin to tackle Social Security and hopefully that will bring it back as a strong Democratic party issue.
"Similarly, we don't send our people to other countries for health care, but so many come here."
No, we don't send them to other countries, but they are going on their own. As proof, I suggest you Google "medical tourism", apparently a booming business these days.
The Dems caving in on the public option and the Republican's "politics before country" attitude will ensure that health costs will continue to skyrocket. I suppose its going to take people dying in the streets before we are going to see universal health care in this country. So sad.
Grog,
Funny little dude you are. Let's not pick on Obama too much now and count your chickens, if you catch my drift.
If we could take the time machine back to Baby Bush's first time--at about this same time--his numbers were beginning to drop as well, and it was clear the guy was in way over his head. Then conveniently Bush, Cheney, Condi and the whole fun bunch neglect to see that intelligence reports crossing their desks pointed to terrorists flying their planes into buildings in American cities several months later. As his numbers sank after the new year to new lows, crickets were chirping.
At least Obama speaks his first language--he's got that going for him. And even if Dems lose some seats, at this point in the debate we can certainly rely on the GOP pulling a Palin and singing the South Shall Rise Again while waving their 'birther' flags in the faces of their pals at Fox.
Centrists will get sick of this once again, to be sure.
If the Dems want to make sure they keep their gains, they need to be a little less particular about trying to be bipartisan. The Republicans have made it quite clear that they only want to obstruct, so the Dems should forget about trying to make them play nice and concentrate on getting solid legislation passed that they can point to come election time.
Come on, guys, grow a pair!!
Dear Mr. Silver:
While you may correctly cite historical trends in off year elections to project what may happen in 2010, I wonder if it also makes sense to focus particularly on what happens in off year elections during recessions, and particularly during the Great Depression. Would looking at those elections give a different view on what might be happening in 2010? Even if the economy is officially out of recession at that point, unemployment is likely to still be high.
If Americans are that fickle and dumb to elect back into office the GOP who has done nothing domestically in the past 8 years.. neither did they do anything when the first Bush was in office. the republicans have NO plan to make this country better, just the same of mantra.. SMALLER GOVERMENT, TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH, a bunch of bull..
but if they want to elect them back into office to run the same agenda , then this country get what it deserves.. what these critical areas need to do , is ELECT REAL DEMOCRATS, TRUE PROGRESSIVES THAT WANT TO GET SOMETHING DONE, NOT THESE FAKE BLUEDOGS WHICH ARE NOTHING BUT REPUBLICANS IN DEM CLOTHING.
You know from reading the post above it obvious that these GOP supporters "make up their own set of facts: Which is pathetic, It amazes me how they sit around and act as if the last 8 years didnt happen.. I mean really give me a f'in break..
Obama was handed the worst economic crisis since the great depression, no president has ever came into office with these many problems domestically and internationally.
Everyone keep screaming about the stimulus package and bailing out the banks. when the bail out started WITH BUSH..
I guess Obama was suppose to let the banks fail, let the whole finacial structure just collaps, is that what you GOP wanted?
why?
SO YOU CAN BLAME HIM FOR NOT DOING ANYTHING TO SAVE THE FINACIAL SYSTEM..
which is pathetic, all you people care about is gimicks and games to regain power. SCREW THE GOP w/o vasaline.. I have never seen such a party that have so many BAD ideas or no ideas for this country.. all you want is POWER .. its sickening
The Dems have their hands on all the levers of power and they're not doing much with it. At the same time, I don't want more GOP riffraff handing out more money to the rich and expecting more trickle down miracles. I'll be campaigning to replace current Dems with better Dems.
OH! YES, I FULL AGREE WITH MY FELLOW COMMENTER HUGH I TOO WILL CAMPAIGN FOR REPLACEMENTS OF SOME DEMS WITH BETTER AND LOYAL DEMS. OUT WITH THE DIVIDERS TOTALLY.
Bush inherited a bad economy, made a tax cut on capital gains, saw 5 years of sustained economic and job grow, lost control of congress in 2006, at which time the economy started to tank.
The housing bubble was bi-partisan in the making. "Let's give poor people houses" didn't work. Bush was the only one repeatedly warning about Freddie and Fannie. Barney Frank ultimately is the bag holder to blame for the housing bubble.
The economy was in shambles when Obama took over.
Remember last year?
The stimulus checks, the wall st. bailout, etc.? No?
I thought elephants never forget.
I am a moderate, but it will be a long time before the GOP gets my vote.
For very good republican, there must be 50 that have flat out failed.
In 8 years...
The stock market lost value and gold quadrupled in value.
How do you GOP people NOT see that as an economic FAILURE?
If the GOP was a football team they would be the Detroit Lions.
At least Detroit fans know!
Rudy,
You haven't answered the question. Access to medical care is the issue. Affordability is the issue.
Lots of wealthy politicians come to the US for care. Being wealthy, they can afford it.
If socialized medicine is such a bust in other nations, then why aren't they rushing to switch over to the US healthcare model? Why haven't they ditched socialized medicine?
Well, since Bush never really stated any position on the real estate mess, I have a tough time believing that he wanted to keep real estate affordable for the working man/women of this country.
Maybe next the GOP can raise foo9d prices, and then clothing?
Then cut working wages some more.
And then spend $2 for every $1 the government takes in.
Cut taxes to get that done.
Great!
If you TRIED to sabotage the economy... would it look any different?
I am a democrat... have been for going on nine years. I can tell you all that if health care reform is lost... the Democrats lose me. I voted for change... not big bail outs with nothing for the middle class and working poor.
Shiloh & Rudy-
Thanks, unfortunately, both citations are secondary sources, Shiloy's a movie script, Rudy's an unattributed portion of an article. OK, enough minutae. I agree with shiloh that it would be wonderful if everyone could provide some citation data on their quotes, however vague. And possibly leave some of the personal invective out. "Jane, you ignorant slut" was funny the first year Saturday Night Live was aired (there's your cite), but doesn't lead to a political discourse of the perceived merits and flaws of policy and laws.
Thank God for Fox news -the american commi hates the truth teller
the lies of cnn cnbc etc must be stoped The country flat lined after obama got in office Bush was a great president .anybody who votes Dem is nuts , they f-ed this country up when bill was in office Bush keep our heads above water after the Clinton mess . then Gods punishment came Obama -
Please God forgive us good americans the liberals are stupid and know not what they do
an unblind american
I know many libs think of Rasmussen as a Republican poller, but he came the closest to the actual 2008 election results.
I don't begrudge a liberal blogger for believing Rasmussen to be right-leaning. I don't think it is, but it's reasonable that you would.
But are you seriously suggesting that the Daily Kos poll is the unbiased standard against which to compare other polls? I can't think of a poll with a more obvious ideological skew.
umm....Mike in Maryland...
the left owns hollywood (ask breitbart)
the left owns the MSM, and the MSM carries water for Barack (the MSM worships Obama, and vindictively destroyed Palin, doontcha know?)
the left owns academe, science and technology.
Only 6% of scientists are republican and 65% of postgrad degreed ppl are dems.
do you dispute any of those facts?
in 2006 the right lost congress
in 2008 the right lost the presidency
the only outlets the right has are FOXnews and talkradio.
the teabag demographic is so irrationally angry because they have been politically and culturally disenfranchised.
also....
Obama 365 ec votes
McCain 173 ec votes
brutal disenfranchisement.
the demographic timer on non-hispanic caucs runs out in 2023, and conservatives have no cultural outlets to reach new demographics.
youth for Obama in 2008 67%
hispanics for Obama in 2008 67%
blacks for Obama in 2008 97%
so they are very, very angry.
INTELLIGENTSIAS_BLOG said...
OH! YES, I FULL AGREE WITH MY FELLOW COMMENTER HUGH I TOO WILL CAMPAIGN FOR REPLACEMENTS OF SOME DEMS WITH BETTER AND LOYAL DEMS. OUT WITH THE DIVIDERS TOTALLY.
I know how you feel. We aren't found of RINOs. However, how the dems gained control of the congress was to run moderate dems. You probably can't replace them with "better and loyal dems," because the republicans would win against more hard line liberals.
Despite Obama victory in 2008, this is not a hard left country. His trying to rule that way is likely to lose a lot of Democrat seats.
BTW in the above posting I should have writen "pollster."
Joe clark says
'I don't begrudge a liberal blogger for believing Rasmussen to be right-leaning. I don't think it is, but it's reasonable that you would.
But are you seriously suggesting that the Daily Kos poll is the unbiased standard against which to compare other polls? I can't think of a poll with a more obvious ideological skew.'
-----------------------------
I think the thing to do here is three fold. Firstly look at the wording and make up of the questions. What is the pollster trying to do with those? Secondly compare the pollsters results with other pollsters on similar questions (why is it Ras are soooooooooooooooooooo out of step with all the other pollsters on Obama's approval?) and the third is is there anything else that jars in the polls, as Nate points out on which party Ras suggests the public trust on Social Security.
Of course if a Daily Kos poll shows similar liberal tendencies to a Ras poll showing conservative tendencies, then I would caution against reading too much into its results. However if it is largely in line, then why not look at the results.
Truff, I thought the answer was to your question was self-evident, but I'll be more explicit, briefly.
1. Your presumtion of popularity and success isn't accurate. Once a country has instituted socialized medicine, it is extremely difficult to dismantle. So once that rubicon has been crossed, too many people become dependent upon it, and it becomes politically unfeasible to reverse.
2. When it implodes financially, as it has in England and Canada, for example, the effort is neccessarily within the constraints of the undismantlable structure. See this current story about Canada as an example:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
A shadow system of private care develops around the socialized system, and has long been present in most socialized medicine countries for those people who can afford better.
3. The US subsidy of world health has helped mask the problems these systems would otherwise face in greater magnitude, as I discussed previously. If the US went that direction, all innovation would cease. Quality of care would be frozen in time, and decline as the screws are turned on providers, as is shown thru history.
4. Ultimately, the only tools a government-controlled system has to cut costs is restricting access. It is incapable of making cost-benefit decisions beyond rationing.
5. Because most of the people getting screwed by socialized medicine are the ill and elderly, those vistims and dissidents go away. Permanently.
Matoko Kusanagi
the left owns hollywood ????
Like Red Dawn? or Independence day? 100? or most such RWA porn?
Documentaries perhaps but only because that is the only path not blocked by MSM.
the left owns the MSM, ??!!!???
Compared to the Cluster Fox it might seem so, but to long time viewers of Democracy Now TV even Keith Olbermann is not free to explore all that needs it.
-----The left owns academe, science and technology.
Only 6% of scientists are republican and 65% of postgrad degreed ppl are dems.---
Actually Scientists and other educated people are very pro reality and it is Reality that has a left slant, but only because the Right is so vigorously opposed to it.
Nate,
what happened to the GOP death spiral you were writing about after inauguration day? I think that it is always easier to be in the opposition because blocking the majority counts as a win.
Nate, what happened to the GOP "death spiral" you wrote about after inauguration day? Death spirals are rare, and being in opposition is easy because you can win just by blocking.
Rudy:
#1 A presumption of popularity is because it does work however well. There is screaming calls for change to our current system precisely because it does not work for those most in need.
You get a great deal of griping about delays etc in the VA, but offer to sell the veterans care to the highest bidder, as your average employer does and you had better duck!
#2The UK and Canada have financial difficulties (not implodes) for the same reason our public schools have a problem, each have big Conservative parties determined to cut the legs from any public program. The problem is not the program but the Gang Of Pirates trying to maim and kill it.
#3This leads to "special cases" where the GOP avoids the effects of their actions, while redoubling their efforts.
#4The US has assisted basket cases of "free enterprise" third world countries, but the Europeans, Japan, Taiwan not so much.
The third world "help" often becomes unwitting guinea pigs for drugs to bypass humane testing, but research like medical care itself needs to be motivated to do good rather than to do well, and so that too is no longer an American "best"
#4The main tool the Government has is to do the job and not try and figure how to make the maximum buck out of everything. It might pay $5 for an aspirin but not pay 1 cent and charge $30 for it.
#5The ill and elderly can only hope they live long enough to get that Socialized Medicine because Feral Medicine kills a high percentage before they get there.
From PPP
Monday, August 17, 2009
Obama's approval drop in North Carolina
Since April Barack Obama has dropped from a peak approval rating of 54% in our North Carolina polling to now just 46%.
Freedem, I suppose in your world, those comments constitute debunking. In my world they constitute nonsense.
A couple of things to consider for those who prefer to ignore Ras polls. First, check out an independent review of 08 pollsters- you will find Ras at the top way above the ones he currently disagrees with. Second, his weighting for his polls is based on a rolling 45,000 interviews, not his ideology whatever that might be.
Re the health care debate, it does not make sense to give a huge new chunk of our lives to a government who cannot manage the medicare, the VA, the Post Office or public education. Second, BO ignores the blood suckers tax on health care- the trial lawyers- because the DNC is a wholly owned subsidiary of the trial lawyers association. Third, for BO to be dropping like a rock against a leaderless, rudderless and outspent opposition has to be terrifying to the left. What will happen when the conservatives really get their voice back?
Why Nate got it wrong on likely voters:
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/likely_voters_and_midterm_elec.php
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Obama and the Dems have lost the Seniors. The GOP will campaign as the party that will protect Medicare, borrwing a page from Clinton's "MediScare" playbook. Eerily the whole thing is gaining traction and 2010 could shape up to be a blood bath.
Besides it is becoming more and more apparent that Obama sucks at being President.
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便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
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