From the President on downward, the White House now seems resigned to losing the fight over the "public option", a government-run insurance plan that would complete against private plans. It's time to re-assess the playing field in light of this development.
Is the public option really dead? Probably.
Perhaps the better question is whether the public option was ever really 'alive', meaning that it ever had enough votes to pass both the House and the Senate. We estimated based on committee votes that a bill containing a fairly weak public option -- like the one approved by the House's Energy and Commerce Committee -- would be a favorite to pass the House but probably only by a slim margin, with between 220-225 votes for passage (a minimum of 218 are required). And arguably, the conditions have worsened somewhat for health care reform since the Commerce Committee's compromise passed on July 31st.
It's the Senate side, though, where the public option was encountering most of its difficulties. Only 37** Senators, according to the whip count at Howard Dean's website, were firmly on board with the public option, whereas at least a few Democrats (Mary Landrieu, Joe Lieberman, Kent Conrad) had stipulated their opposition to it. (** EDIT: The information at the Dean website appears to be somewhat out of date. More recent counts show something like 43-45 Dems in favor.) There were nevertheless a number of scenarios under which one can imagine a bill with a public option having passed -- Lieberman, Landrieu, et. al. might be nominally opposed to a public option, but is their opposition so firm that they would vote to filibuster any bill that contained one?
The White House has evidently concluded that this is a real threat. I don't see any real obvious reason to doubt their assessment. For those who have come to a different conclusion, I'm all ears -- give me a detailed, practical (not theoretical) scenario by which a bill containing a public option passes both chambers and gets the President's signature. But I don't see it.
Keep in mind that, even if a bill with a public option made it to the Senate floor, it would be subject to an amendment that could strip that provision. Considering that virtually all of the 40 Republicans would vote for such an amendment, it would only need perhaps 10-12 Democratic votes to pass, something which it could quite possibly achieve. Now, progressives could try to filibuster that amendment. But if they did so, senators like Landrieu and Ben Nelson could then filibuster the overall bill with a clear conscience (or at least a good excuse).
Why doesn't the public option have the votes for passage? You'd think that a provision that is both fairly popular and money-saving was a good bet for passage. But the insurance industry really, really does not like the public option. We'd previously estimated that its lobbying influence has cost the public option something like nine (9) votes in the Senate.
This is an unpleasant truth. But just because it's an unpleasant truth doesn't mean that it's not the truth.
Is a bill without a public option worth passing (if you're a Democrat)? From a near-term political standpoint, almost certainly yes. Bill Clinton suggested on Thursday that the President's approval rating would get a five-point boost the moment that health care legislation passed with his signature. I don't know if that's exactly right, but this is certainly a better scenario for Democrats than the world in which health care reform fails and they're getting blamed by pretty much everybody and have nothing much to run on in 2010.
From a long-term political standpoint, some of the less effective versions of the House and Senate bills could create problems for Democrats down the road. For example, I've argued that the compromise floated by Max Baucus's Senate Finance Committee could wind up making quite a few folks upset, since it contains rather ungenerous subsidies and an individual mandate but no public option and no true employer mandate. If your employer drops your health coverage a few years hence and you have to buy an expensive plan on your own without much help from the government, you're probably going to be fairly peeved about the country having spent $900 billion to put you in this predicament. Hopefully, if the Democrats are giving up on the public option, they're at least getting something for their willingness to compromise, such as a stronger employer mandate and more aggressive regulations on insurance premiums.
Forget politics for a moment -- what about from a policy standpoint? The fundamental accomplishments of a public option-less bill would be to (1) ensure that no American could be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition or because they became sick; (2) subsidize health insurance coverage for millions of poor and middle-class Americans.
These are major, major accomplishments. Arguably, they are accomplished at too great a cost. But let's look at it like this. The CBO estimates that the public option would save about $150 billion over the next ten years -- that's roughly $1,100 for every taxpayer. I'm certainly not thrilled to have to pay an additional $1,100 in taxes because some Blue Dog Democrats want to placate their friends in the insurance industry. But I think the good in this health care bill -- the move toward universal-ish coverage, the cost-control provisions -- is worth a heck of a lot more than $1,100.
Can progressive Democrats in the House block a bill without a public option from passing? If they want to, they probably can. We estimated earlier that a bill with a weak public option would garner about 220-225 votes in the House, assuming no liberal objections. Perhaps a bill with no public option at all could do a bit better -- maybe 230 to 240 votes, gaining some ground among Blue Dogs and a maybe a very few moderate Republicans. That would mean that you'd only need between about 15-25 progressives voting against such a bill to block passage; FireDogLake reports that they've already found 12 who are willing to do so.
But I'm not sure where that would leave progressives. If you re-inserted a public option, you might lose as many Blue Dog votes as you gained back from progressives. Even if you managed to avoid that, the public option would probably get killed by the Senate. Maybe you could gamble on a bill with a public option passing the House, a bill without one passing the Senate, and then the House bill winning the floor fight on the conference report. But this is usually not what happens. Instead, the Senate tends to win floor fights over conference reports, since they can filibuster them.
But don't progressives need to draw a line in the sand somewhere? I'm sympathetic to this argument from a game-theory standpoint. But (1) lines in the sand won't mean anything if they're washed to sea by a wave-like 2010 election; and (2) I'm not persuaded that the lack of progressive willpower is responsible for compromises on bills like health care, climate, and the stimulus package. The stimulus package passed the House with only 26 more votes than were required for passage and had just one vote to spare in the Senate. The cap-and-trade bill passed with just one extra vote in the House and has yet to pass the Senate (and probably won't). A health care bill, even under somewhat best-case scenarios and even without a public option, is unlikely to gather more than about 230-240 votes in the House and perhaps 62-64 in the Senate.
It doesn't seem to me as though the Democratic leadership (including President Obama) is unnecessarily watering down bills for the sake of achieving a "bipartisan" outcome. It seems, rather, that they're calibrating things relatively well, and squeezing about the most juice they can out of these initiatives given the institutional imperatives of the Congress.
By all means, try to change those institutional imperatives. Organize primary challenges against Senators and Representatives who are too conservative relative to their districts; these can have somewhat dramatic -- if probably somewhat temporary -- effects on Congressional behavior. Try to build some momentum against the filibuster. Expose Senators and Representatives who are voting against the best interests of their district because of special-interest money. Push Democrats to end the seniority system in its selection of committee chairs and floor leaders. And work on shifting the Overton window where you can. But I don't think the problem is that progressives are disempowered. It's simply that they don't constitute a majority. Non-Blue Dog Democrats make up 47 percent of the House. They probably do make up a majority of the Senate (although this is arbitrary; the Blue Dogs aren't formally active in the upper chamber), but in the Senate, a mere majority isn't good enough -- you need a supermajority.
How much of this is Obama's fault? I've never been particularly sanguine about the prospects for the public option's inclusion in a health care reform bill. I thought it was going to require a major rhetorical commitment from Obama back in June to get it passed, and even then that it would take some luck on top of that. In practice, Obama sort of dipped his toes in the water on the public option but never really took the plunge. You can make the case that this was a mistake. And certainly, I've been underwhelmed with the President's messaging on health care, although it's been better of late. But the point is, there is a lot of path dependence here: given the decisions he made earlier, the failure of the public option was probably inevitable and to have continued to press for it might have harmed the chances for health care's passage overall. If you want to blame Obama for this, go right ahead -- one thing I worry about with this President is that he tends to hedge his decisions too much. I would say, though, that this is almost certainly a tactical, rather than a strategic, mistake.
Incrementalism seems to be a popular meme these days -- could the public option do better as a standalone provision? While bearing in mind that bargaining is the third stage of grief, this seems to me to be a somewhat realistic hope, especially if Barack Obama is elected to a second term. If a health care reform bill passes, then the government will paying for private insurance coverage for some low-to-middle income individuals. This will tend to give everyone a more direct interest in cost containment: if a low-income family's insurance coverage is costing more than it should because of the absence of competition from a public option, it will be the taxpayers making up the difference. Of course, there would be some people arguing to blow the whole thing up entirely for this reason. But if someone then proposed a public option -- a provision that would spare $150 billion from the public dole and which would give consumers more choices -- it would seem to have a fairly compelling case. Part of the problem the public option faces is that it's a somewhat popular, cost-reducing measure which is mired in a somewhat unpopular, thousand-page, $900 billion bill. When taken as a standalone measure, its cost savings would be more transparent and its opponents would have less ability to confuse the public about its costs and benefits.
8.16.2009
Life After the Death of the Public Option
by Nate Silver @ 6:44 PM...see also bipartisanship, health care, house democrats, senate democrats
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148 comments
You know, I would like to see if some numbers can be run on how many jobs have been lost to other countries with universal health care. The reason that I say this is that a company in Minnesota recently moved a bunch of jobs to Thailand. They have universal health care.
This bill is not only a health care bill, but a jobs bill. The cost savings in health care will help us become more competitive in the global economy. It might be better to stretch out the debate until numbers like this can be made public.
If the progressive blogs were smart, they'd carry this headline for 24 hrs in the next few days: NO PUBLIC OPTION: NO MONEY, NO VOTES
I think they'll get the message. The insurance industry isn't THAT powerful. Obama and the Dems still needs the progressive wing of the party a shitload more than the right-wing, namely Blue Dogs and GOPosaurs.
BTW, how could the public option be supported by 76% of Americans, yet the votes aren't there in the senate? Which of course is BULLSHIT straight from the mouth of Kent Conrad.
And if 76% want the public option, you basically have no excuse not to include it in any healthcare bill.
If they can't get this done, with a public option, they don't deserve the power that they have and will lose horribly in 2010. It will be ugly. I will not vote for a Republican but will also not vote for a Democrat---I'll stay home for the first time ever. Not getting at least a vote on the public option is not acceptable.
And good luck ever getting some kind of Medicare or Social Security reform. A Democrat would be crazy to even propose to change these programs. And I don't think the Republicans are ready for the same attacks that they are now pulling on Obama. So this country will have the status quo until we implode.
I do like the idea of bringing up the public option up in a separate bill of some sort.
There is no rule saying this is the end all final product of health care reform and all is lost.
In all honesty, I don't believe Obama ever ran during his campaign on a public option. I always remember his line being, and I'm paraphrasing, 'I want to give all Americans the same health insurance options members of Congress have.'
In my opinion, if we lower long term costs, provide insurance to most individuals, prevent pre-existing conditions to be an issue, then we've accomplished something good for Americans.
Another thing, why would the White House signal they were willing to use reconciliation for anything short of a public option? And why would Obama feel the need to explain the benefits of the public option to people at Friday and Saturday's town halls in Montana and Colorado? If the public option was dead, wouldn't Obama be selling people on the idea of co-ops?
This could be worse than getting nothing passed. Time will tell...
This is what happens when you start out with a posture of bipartisanship and compromise. The public option WAS a compromise. Now the compromise has been compromised.
Obama should have started out demanding a single-payer system. He would have gotten the exact same hysterical reaction from the same foaming-at-the-mouth elements of our beloved democracy, but then he could have retreated to a public option, and that would have been considered a compromise.
This should be an object lesson for liberals. Don't start your negotiations with an apparent willingness to compromise, because your opponents will not respect it, and you will only end up retreating that much farther from your original vision.
And another thing...
Saying the votes aren't there is the lamest possible excuse. Not being able to get 60 votes tells the base certain senators need to be primaried. No being able to get 51 votes, or unwilling not to, tells the base the entire party needs to be punished. Reagan used reconcilaition a few times, did he not?
I am an attorney in my late-20's from Northern California who spent time last year in Reno watching the polls for Obama's campaign.
I am the very definition of an Obama voter, donor, and volunteer.
No more. Obama will not get another minute of my time or another dime from my pockets.
It is simply not worth it anymore if Obama/the Dems just give up like this.
The Republicans were correct - this is Obama's waterloo, because the democrats are repeatedly giving those of us on the left a big 'ole middle finger.
Nate,
A whole lot of rationalization on your part ie spin.
Bottom line, if no public option, what's the point ie Obama and the Dems will have once again caved to corporate lobbyists over the will of the people.
A major loss for Obama/Dems if no public option in the health care bill and they will deserve all the negative consequences.
Election nite is becoming more tainted even as I type.
This is what's great about being an independent, one can easily admit to political reality as the DNC keeps asking me for $.
Sorry, there's no spinning this major embarrassment to the Dems if they cave on the public option.
take care
But lines in the sand won't mean anything if they're washed to sea by a wave-like 2010 election
Nate, you've said something along these lines repeatedly in the past few days, but I haven't seen you provide any evidence that this is a worrisome possibility.
And anyway, it seems to me like bailing out on one of the central pillars of the Democratic platform is a much more likely way to end a political career than an astronomically improbable Republican tidal wave.
Nate, progressives in congress say they won't vote for a bill that doesn't include a public plan. Anything short of that is a bad deal. They actually have a lot of say in this. How come it's dipshits like Mike Ross and Kent Conrad, who like represents 7 people, are dictating whther or not a public option will be in the final bill? Mike Ross is out there in the kookytown with James Inhoffe.
Wow, where are the conservatrolls tonight?
Well, this is certainly the saddest news I've heard today. To me, a bill without a public option is worthless. Telling insurers they have to accept patients they could have kicked out previously isn't very impressive. Especially if they get to crank up the premiums (whether Uncle Sam foots part of the bill or not).
Now, if they mandate employer coverage (without any reduction in force or reduction in payroll) AND force a rollback of current premiums with a cap for increases each year, then maybe we'd have something close to what we'd get with a public option. But of course that won't happen.
Sad, sad, indeed.
Nate, you are wrong about one thing.
"But lines in the sand won't mean anything if they're washed to sea by a wave-like 2010 election"
Most of the progressives are in safe districts, where they won't be washed away. Rather, if no health care bill passes, the Blue Dogs would be at threat to be defeated, not the Progressive caucus.
So the Progressive caucus, if it so chose, could put the gun at the head of vulnerable Blue Dogs.
Im not buying that 70%+ still support the public option. Sure 70% supported it back in June when they were asked a generic question about it and knew zero facts about the proposed bills coming out of Congress. But now that people know more, and polls in support of health care have been falling on all major poll sites, I think the public option question would garner far less than the 70% you are trying to use to support your position.
I understand the possible need to negotiate away a public option. But why do it in the middle of recess?
The next time the Democratic Party -- DCCC, DSC, DNC, etc -- solicits me and my family for donations, I'm afraid that we will have to decline...
We need to save our money to cover the costs of our skyrocketing health insurance premiums and co-pays.
-- MrJM
"TommyReport- the statewide DK polls are horserace polls, therefore people who don't vote have no place in there. The national polls are about the opinion that citizens of the United States have of their President. Not voting doesn't make your opinion invalid.
And as your comparing an all-adults poll with registered-voter polls, your analysis is invalid, as your basically comparing apples to oranges."
Decent points Rasmus. Then would you concede that Obama's favorables among "likely voters" in even the Research 2K/Daily Kos poll would be around 52-53% (I'm still wondering why they don't poll approval/disapproval for Obama)?
If his favorables among PA likely voters is 55%, 63% among likely CA voters, and 51% among likely VA voters, then it stands to reason that his favorables among all likely national voters is 52-53%, not the 60% favorables that he shows right now for Daily Kos/Research 2K among all adults, even non-voters (I wonder how many felons that Kos polls?).
Gibbs: White House still supports a public option
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/16/gibbs-white-house-still-supports-public-option/
Speaking to CBS News’ Face the Nation on Sunday, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs emphasized that President Barack Obama still supports having a “public option” for health care, which the White House believes will introduce additional competition and lower prices in the insurance market.
The statement runs contrary to claims by other officials and reports circulating through other media on Sunday.
Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, speaking to CNN’s John King on Sunday, said the public option is not “essential” and that consumer choice, market competition and reform of private health insurance regulations should be the focus of the debate.
Later Sunday, Sen. Curt Conrad (D-ND) told Fox News anchor Chris Wallace that the U.S. Senate will not allow a public option, adding his belief that, “to continue to chase that rabbit is just a wasted effort.”
The comments led the Associated Press and right-wing news aggregator Matt Drudge to report that the White House has given up on supporting a public option.
But Sebelius, who as health secretary would presumably be in charge of a public health care system, also said that coverage for all Americans was still one of the administration’s goals, regardless of whether or not that comes by way of a public health option.
“The president believes this option of a government plan is the best way to provide choice and competition,” Gibbs told CBS.
He added: “I think most of what you are seeing on TV, no offense, is good TV, and that’s about it.”
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/16/767804/-STFU!-Obama-SUPPORTS-the-public-option!-Todays-news...
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/16/767746/-Maybe-Obama-Knows-What-He-is-Doing:-Public-Option
Nate, I agree with those who suggest this is all prevarication and rationalizing. Normally I think you're spot on but I think you completely missed the mark here.
Health care reform without a public option is a waste of time. This was Obama's BIG TICKET ITEM and it's unacceptable that he's willing to let it go. This is what we voted for. What the hell do we have to do to get something done, for crying out loud? We won the White House, we have majorities in Congress. What else does it take?
I think the White House and Congress are going to be very surprised at how angry this is going to make liberals. And we need to make sure they know it.
Money still talks in this country. The capacity of the average person to be manipulated by the media should never be underestimated. The Republicans know this. It's time we Democrats learned it.
if you want to change the world, be prepared to pay for it.
Peter said: "Obama should have started out demanding a single-payer system. He would have gotten the exact same hysterical reaction from the same foaming-at-the-mouth elements of our beloved democracy, but then he could have retreated to a public option, and that would have been considered a compromise."
Absolutely correct. It's basic logic that you should start out bargaining for MORE than you really want.
If the Public Option is in fact dying, that is really sad news. IMO, any healthcare bill that doesn't have universal coverage, and doesn't significantly reduce costs, is completely worthless. Those two things should be the "LINE IN THE SAND" at this point.
I'm not sure what to do about Obama and the Dems now. Support them or not? I want them to know they shouldn't cave in without consequences, but going against them runs the risk of helping the GOP. I wish there was some way to directly attack the Insurance Lobby, without harming the Dems significantly. Any ideas?
Nate is pretty much a Clintonista in spirit, even if he leaned to Obama in the primary. I agree with those who say Obama should have staked out a single payer position so that a public option was the compromise. When you START from the compromise position (OK, I will bend over and pick up the soap, but you better ask nicely and buy me flowers afterwards) as Obama is so wont to do, it is no surprise you get rolled. Medicare for all was a great starting point, but then again, Obama never ran on public health care EVER. He was to the right of Hillary on that issue, so this is no great shock. What is so weird is that he letting himself be defined by an issue that was not a signature one for him, far behind Iraq the economy, civil rights and liberties (that has become a joke) and the environment. He actually rolled to some major early victories, but, just as with the primaries, he is like the basketball team that builds the early lead then coasts as the opponent chips away.
The other excellent point is that, in a "wave election" the ones who will be taken out are those very blue dogs who are busy sabotaging the public option now. Unless the blue dogs have no desire to suck off the public teat after 2010, it is profoundly in their interest to make sure a credible health care bill gets passed, so I do see the progressives actually in the driver's seat here. They are not the ones who will lose if health care loses. It will be the blue dogs, Obama, etc...
Stand firm, progressive caucus. You make up 80% of the house dems and 60% of the senate dems, so nothing can get through without you.
Yes, Obama has been a big fat (well skinny, really) equivocating spineless disappointment on a lot of this, and the weird thing is, he is STILL better and more principled than anyone we have had in so long.
Odd times...
Shawn said...
Most of the progressives are in safe districts, where they won't be washed away. Rather, if no health care bill passes, the Blue Dogs would be at threat to be defeated, not the Progressive caucus.
So the Progressive caucus, if it so chose, could put the gun at the head of vulnerable Blue Dogs.
Agree 100%. That's why you've got the progressive wing of the party basically saying FUCK THAT to Kent Conrad's sick little joke (aka co-ops). The progressive caucus need to step up, regardless if the White House is still on board with including a public plan. They are the majority in the Dem party afterall.
He didn't run on a single payer plan, he ran on a public option. So it's silly to say he should have put that on the table first. Not a single Democratic candidate (at least, not the top three) were for a single payer system.
Second, he DID run on a public option. Anyone who says he didn't is incorrect. In fact, the only part different now than what he ran on is the mandate. He was against the citizen mandate during the campaign.
What do we get for giving up the public option? There is no employer mandate. So will they give us an employer mandate if we give up the public option? We keep giving things up without getting anything in return.
I think it's outrageous that Conrad, Baccus etc..., can derail the public option but I really don't get why people think it's so critical especially given the fact that apparently less than 10 percent of the population would even qualify for it. If, and it's a big 'if', the insurance industry is regulated, the premiums are reasonable, community rating requires them to take everyone at the same rate and the subsidies are generous enough to make insurance affordable; why would this be such a failure?
I agree with Paul Krugman that while the public option is not make or break, it does raise the bar for the rest of the bill. Until there is a bill, I think it's too early to attack it as insufficient.
Nate, you have written the best thing I've read on this subject. Coupled with Gibbs statement, I think there is no reason for all this "progressive" hysteria (see also the Comments on today's NY T article.) How quick these progressives are to withdraw their support from Obama and basically kick him into the gutter. I'm a Liberal, in the good fight for decades. We need the progressives' support but if we don't have it we'll go on without it.
@Peter
"This should be an object lesson for liberals. Don't start your negotiations with an apparent willingness to compromise, because your opponents will not respect it, and you will only end up retreating that much farther from your original vision."
If only the pusillanimous left knew this! We might be saddled with a federal health plan that would lead to economic ruin, but at least Iran might be deterred from torturing its dissenters and developing nuclear weapons.
It almost amounts to an insult of Obama to say that this was intended to be the whole plan, with things like end of life counseling and a public option incapable of being added later, because the implication would be that Obama believes the Democrats' friends at the plaintiffs' trial bar are not in need of serious reform as part of reducing health costs...or he is caving in to them.
Reform without a Public Option will just be another government giveaway to the insurance companies. I don't remember seeing Kent Conrad's name on the ballot for POTUS last November. Maybe he needs to shut up and follow the guy who won the election. And if Obama can't bring them all in line with his vision, this whole thing of "Congressional Democratic majority" is merely a sham that is not worthy of our support in time, money and votes.
When, roughly speaking, did your country become so corrupt? Has it always been like this, with corporate lobbies just blatantly buying public representatives? Or was there some historical fork in the road?
Just out of curiosity, what will still be in the bill when it passes? No public option. No employer mandate. No individual mandate. No real mechanism to lower costs. So what we get is a an end to the problem of pre-existing conditions and possibly assistance to poor people buying insurance. Seems like very little for the expenditure of virtually all of Obama's political capital. I really think this has the potential to ruin the Democrats just as Carter's term did 30 years ago. What began as such great hope 6 months ago will set back Democrats for many years to come. Sad.
"...aw, GOP baby, it's okay, stop crying, look I'm putting away the scary public option, it's okay, calm down, look it's gone, why yes you can have an ice cream, ow let go of my hair, ok ok you can pull my hair, just don't cry, it's okay baby, yes of course Mama Dem will get you that toy..."
Is it too late to change the Democratic symbol from a donkey to a squid?
Fuck Obama.
No poublic option. Huge taxpayer bailouts for corporations. The Banks make their own rules and have as much taxpayer money as they want. Torture still acceptable but gays in the military aren't.
Wher'e the CHANGE I voted for??????
Fucking Obama is Bush's 3rd term. I will never - EVER- vote for another democrat as long as I live.
great post
mind to exchange links :)
http://iphon3n3wz.blogspot.com
It appears from the comments that we're still in the second stage of grief.
Bottom line: BO got his a$$ handed to him. Given his profound lack of leadership experience this should not be too much of a surprise.
The method to get the public option through the Senate is 50 votes plus Biden using reconcilation. I can promise you this. There will not ever be a bipartisan compromise ever. It just is not going to happen.
It will pass in reconcilation or not at all.
Half a loaf is better than none. Always remember that Ted Kennedy has always regretted that he didn't get a partial health care reform bill that Carter thought he could get for him, holding out for a more comprehensive bill.
Get what you can while you can, go for more when you have what you need to get it.
I gave up on a meaningful bill passing weeks ago. Maybe we will get something useful after all.
I have to admit, I never really saw what benefit the public option was supposed to bring.
Looking at the parts of the bill I've read, I see a defined benefits package, a defined marketplace/exchange to sell policies (which, because of the defined benefits package, can mainly compete on premiums and doctor availability), subsidies for low incomes, some mandates, elimination/reduction of deductibles, copays, etc.
What I don't see are structural changes in how the doctors and patients interact with the system. My employer will still choose which health plans are available to me (not that there'll be much difference between them now). My doctor still has to deal with a bunch of different insurers payment systems.
I like the defined benefit packages; I like the limitations on coinsurance and copays; I like the board recommending to HHS what acceptable coverage is; I like elimination of "pre-existing conditions" and recission.
But the main effect I see of the "public option" is that doctors will have 21 different payment forms on file instead of 20.
What am I missing that's so great about the public option?
(Personally, I support HR1200, but it doesn't have a whelks chance in a supernova of passing)
Funny. I did an Alt-F on this page for Tort, and Tort Reform and came up empty.
Seems like nobody here is TRULY serious about bringing down the cost of anything for anybody...especially for the WORKING man.
This appears to be a place where you check your intelligence at the door.
I know you guys think that the insurance lobby is powerful. It certainly seems that the TRIAL LAWYER lobby has them topped. By a mile.
The public option was the entire plan. It was the mechanism to lower costs. That's why it was fought against by the insurance companies. Now the insurance companies will continue to raise rates, and the people who can't afford coverage will continue to not be able to afford coverage. And the people like me will continue to pay more for less coverage. The public option was going to keep the insurance companies in check, so if they raise their rates people could choose a cheaper option.
To me, what we may get is more people covered, at the expense of government, but at higher prices due to no new competition. So essentially, a giant windfall for the insurance companies.
Re: "Obama is Bush's 3rd term" lololol. No difference between Bush and Gore! NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BUSH AND GORE!
"I will never - EVER- vote for another democrat as long as I live." Have fun with that.
I'm a supporter of doing something about health care, but this huge defeat proves that 2008 was a democratic election, not a liberal one. For four years now they have been running conservatives, and now the fractures in the party are preventing it from a governing majority.
Two: since when was the public option a "compromise." No Republican and very few conservative Dems have ever supported such a thing. Their case that it was a stalking horse for eventual single payer is by no means negligible. Obama said as much a few years ago, his indignation notwithstanding. I suspect many of you supported the public option under the supposition that it would lead to a single payer. The GOP has gone overboard with this death panel stuff (though rationing at end of life is a difficult issue that pols tend to skirt rather sheepishly, and this leads to suspicion). But the Dems huffy denials as to the likely implications (or even the designed implications) of a public option has been a disasterous bit of dishonesty on the centerpiece of their proposal. The Voters can smell the disingenuity.
So let me try Stop the Stutter's comment again with decency:
The public option aside, another important aspect of changing the direction of the cost curve will be addressing tort reform. The cost of malpractice insurance for healthcare providers is a significant contributing factor in rising insurance costs. Reform should address this issue to ensure comprehensive cost reduction in our healthcare system.
Also, if the public option is really dead, I'm with most of the people commenting here, progressives need a line in the sand. As has been said, they're not going to lose their seats, it'll be the moderate/blue dog Dems. They know full well dissention within the party and failure to pass legislation is always bad for the majority party. Political history dictates they're probably going to lose seats in the house anyway, it's just a matter of how many.
I just worry about the consequences for President Obama in 2012, although it seems like some here wouldn't be too upset about that. That's a sentiment, that while I wouldn't agree with it, I'm sympathetic to.
Any healthcare reform that passes is a win for the dems.
We have progressed from tit-for-tat to bidding theory.
I think there is a lot of things Obama can give up at this point and still win the game.
Remember the binary framing...stop-heathcare-reform == break Obama...".it is his waterloo."
Anything that passes is conservative doom.
It is their waterloo.
Sigh. Thank you Nate for your insight per usual.
What needs an overhaul is the way the Congress works, and how corporate interest money taints politics on both sides of the aisle. Let's go to public financing and 1 month campaigns and politicians might actually vote their conscience.
Most of the blame lies with the Senate and the Blue Dogs, not the President. I'm not even mentioning irrelevant Republicans.
Very pissed off.
"I will never - EVER- vote for another democrat as long as I live." Have fun with that.
he problem with you Democrats is that you assume that we will continue to vote for you "because we have no other real options." Trust me, I stood in line last November for more than 3 hours to cast my votes for Obama because I believed the hype that Hope and Change would be brought to DC with his election. Sadly, his abandonment of Change infor the hope that he could secure some type of bipartainsanship just proves how naive and unprepared for leadership he is.
Quite frankly, I don't give a rat's ass who wins the mid-term election in 2010. IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER. the results are the same regardless of which party "wins" because all I get is a lose. I am done with the Democrats and beleive me, there are many , many more people who believe as I do. You are in for a rude surprise next November if you fail to see what is in store for the Democratis Party in 2010 if Obama doesn't grow a pair between now and then.
Here's another question that ought to be asked: If the public option is truly dead, is it possible that we could see a renewed push from Ron Wyden and the Healthy American's Act? It seems to me that if we have to live with a plan that lacks a public option, we should go with the best one, and the HAA is a heck of a lot better than what Baucus is cobbling together.
Good riddance to the public option. This all or nothing strategy will get nothing. People don't believe in a free lunch and they know they won't have the same quality in their plan or the same price if insurance cos. are forced to accept pre-existing conditions, unlimited lifetime benefits, unlimited procedures, etc. And they also see through the idea that single payer will provide more "competition" when the main players (Obama, Frank, Pelosi, etc.) are on record as advocating single payer, where there is no competition.
What is needed is less politics and ideology and a plan that does what most people support: expand coverage to the uninsured within the existing framework. That will get 80 votes in the senate, 300+ votes in House and Obama will get the credit for getting something accomplished.
Although I have great admiration for Nate Silver's analytical skills, and his ability to project vote counts, I disagree with his assessment of the damage that would be done if all public options were taken off the table. Instead, I agree with Peter - universal, single payer is the gold standard and should have been pushed hard from the beginning. The fall back position would be a so-called "public option." That would at least have had a chance to compete with the ignoble private insurance companies. Coopts, however, would further aggrandize the current health insurance system. They would not be able to get off the ground because they would be too weak. Furthermore, as presently constituted, the provisions for it would be worthless. Without absolute mandates, strong limits to premiums, copays and deductibles, requirements that insurance companies take everyone who applies under a community rating (no preexisting conditions restrictions) and stringent regulation against rescission (dropping sick/injured people), any so-called health reform bill would not be worth the paper it is printed on.
With Obama as President, sixty supposed Democrats in the Senate and an overwhelming majority in the House, this defeat makes little sense. The insurance industry has yet again won this battle, by using the likes of Limbaugh, Palin, Rove, Cheney, McConnell and DeMint to render nugatory one of the most critical Congressional initiatives in 50 years. To paraphrase the Weavers, isn't this a pity and a shame. Indeed, it is a travesty.
Sincerely,
hapidncr
stop_the_stutter>
Care to give us a complete discussion of how tort reform can save us money, including how much?
If you do, you might actually be able to sway some opinion. Just parroting the talking points of Lush, Manthrax, O'LIElly, the RNC and others will NOT sway any opinions.
Convince us by discussing the issue.
If you don't even try, though, it just proves that you are being manipulated like a ventriloquist's dummy. And you will also prove that you know that you are that ventriloquist's dummy.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
Again, and as JWalker mentioned above, best guess is that the healthcare overhaul will end up being part of budget reconciliation and there is no filibuster (Senate debate is limited) with regard to budget reconciliation. Senator Conrad (D-ND) is Chairman of the Senate committee that will markup (with input from the committees with jurisdiction) the Senate version. It'll need a majority vote in committee (13 Democrats and 10 Republicans) and in the Senate to pass. The House Budget Committee will also markup a bill that'll need a majority vote in committee (24 Democrats and 14 Republicans) and in the House to pass. Then will come the conference. And by the time the final bill is ready for one last signature, who knows, it may be January 2010 and, who knows, it may be that there's a government program to insure the as-yet-uninsured.
It's a process. Conrad talks of there not being 60 votes for a public option in the Senate because he wants to do something else, but also because that's where we are in the process.
"I agree with Peter - universal, single payer is the gold standard and should have been pushed hard from the beginning."
Hapidnor's comment is the case in point. The administration does not want "competition" it wants single payer and views the public option as a back door to it. Nobody believes those pretending to want "competition" are sincere if they are single payer advocates.
And why should tort reform be included? Because it would reduce costs for liability insurance for doctors and hospitals and businesses. Democrats don't want tort reform because trial lawyers are big contributors, pure and simple. So the "cost reduction" aspect sounds as hollow as the "competition" aspect.
The public option is only dead if Obama wants it to be dead.
The solution is (and always has been)
Reconciliation
Reconciliation and
Reconciliation.
Only 50 Senators are needed for the public option to pass through reconciliation. No Republicans and 10 Democrats can vote against it. I believe Obama could certainly, positively, and definitely whip 50 of the 60 Senate Democrats to support such a bill.
Yes, it would time out in a few years, that's why a reconciliation version of the public option would have to phase in very quickly. It would have to be in place and operating before it came up for a re-authorization vote. In that way, even if the Republicans held a majority in one of the houses, they would be in the same situation they are in with Social Security and Medicare. They could not politically afford to vote against re-authorization .
Are we not missing the hammer still left in the toolbox? The CBO. So far it has only been HR 3200, which came out of committee and was scored by the CBO as budget neutral, with an estimated 10-year savings of $150B.
This is our hook. How can ConservaDems produce a "healthcare cooperatives" bill that scores out below HR 3200? Why do you think Sen. Baucus has been dragging his heels? He is faced with a Sissyphean-task and everytime he nears the goal of his powerless cooperatives, the CBO pushes the rock back down the hill.
Hey - I heard a man say once that it is always darkest before the dawn. We need to call our Congressmen and women, we need to send them letter and we need to let them know - in no uncertan terms - that failure is not an option.
Don't let them make us live in Sarah Palin's world.
The observation that Obama seems to be 'calibrating things pretty well' given the narrow passages of some of the bills misses part of the story, I think. By being something of a born compromiser, and aiming for the middle from the very begining, the strategy is self-defeating. Obama might find that if he aimed high instead - and really sold it to the American people - there might actually be MORE votes than for the watered down stuff. If you made a real case to the public for, say, single-payer, made them DEMAND this change, maybe lawmakers would stop dicking around trying to please insurance companies and backwards conservatives and just DO IT RIGHT.
I think the problem with what we are getting is that it does nothing for the regular people who have company health insurance. The people who vote. I am all for poor people getting coverage, but I was just as excited for better and more affordable coverage for all. And for me this bill provides NOTHING. Nothing to lower costs. Nothing to provide a better plan that covers more prevention. Nothing to lower co-payments.
So for me personally, it's a huge loss. I will continue to be told by my employer that the reason for no raises is that healthcare is eating up all of the money for raises.
"Im not buying that 70%+ still support the public option. Sure 70% supported it back in June when they were asked a generic question about it and knew zero facts about the proposed bills coming out of Congress. But now that people know more, and polls in support of health care have been falling on all major poll sites, I think the public option question would garner far less than the 70% you are trying to use to support your position."
That's wonderful that you think it's lower now, but your guess is no more rigorous than is just assuming it's the same as in June. I'm certain we'll see another poll on the public option before the recess is over, and it will probably be somewhat less favorable, but I don't think by that much. Especially if the Dems succeed in driving home the message that the public option would actually save taxpayers money--how in the world can Blue Dogs honestly argue against that?
There's really no reason not to like the public option unless A) you work for an insurance company or B) you fear "mission creep", i.e. the government preferentially subsidizing the public option at some point in the future. (A) represents a tiny minority of the population, while (B) doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense given all the opposition to including a public option in the first place. If so many in Congress are opposed to it now, then the only way they could possibly not only change their minds about it but then decide to preferentially subsidize it is if it actually turned out to work really well, in which case there isn't really any good argument for opposing it in the first place.
IF the public option is now off the table (and I'm not convinced that it is), there is a good possibility of a silver lining in all this.
The Democrats can make sure the public knows that it was the Party of NO! that killed the public option, along with the insurance lobby and the friends that lobby keeps on Capital Hill. It is not very likely the insurance will institute any systematic changes that will reduce, or at least minimize the increase in, the cost of insurance, especially over a period extending more than 2-3 years into the future. Since the current bills (notice TROLLs, I stated 'bill' in the plural form?), will go fully into effect until the 2012-2013 time period, by then the insurance companies will be back to their old practices of raising the rates much faster than inflation so that they can reward the company executives with more and more compensation.
Eventually the pain of paying more for less will do two things:
1. Increase pressure on Congress and the Administration to institute REAL health care reform, and
2. Offer the opportunity to show how the Party of NO! defeated previous attempts to reform health care, and how the Party of NO! is NOT the friend of the non-rich.
Point 2. is the opportunity to show that, not a guarantee of doing that. As such, the Democrats need to make sure the message is very tight and concise, and ready to take advantage of the opportunity. For the last 30 or more years, the Democratic Party has not been noted for doing that, but they used to do it all the time.
That type of message control is an art that can be learned (or relearned, if necessary). And the advantage the Democrats will have if they have to resort to that type of message delivery is that they can present their message with no lies, misinformation or distortions to make their message more palatable, unlike the Republican habit of lies, misinformation and distortions with every message they send out, even if they don't have to lie, misinform and distort.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
You know, I have got to say this.
We got served. We didn't show up to these meetings.
We got out organized and out-hustled.
First, we don't know the final version of the bill, yet. This announcement by Sebelius might be something that is supposed to make us mad. It seems to have worked.
Now, we have to MAKE it work.
Write or e-mail your congressperson and let them know what is what.
We should have shown up at the town halls, but a lot of us didn't. That's OUR fault.
The conservatives got organized and lied like dogs. We arrived too late to the party to do much about it.
Did the President screw up? Yes,
but so did we.
Decisions are made by those who show up. If you stop showing up, you can't make change.
Reports are now saying AP spoke too soon and the public option is not dead.
Instead of squawking away on here, do something productive.
Call the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee
Main Phone Number: (202) 863-1500
Call the DNC:
202-863-8000
Call the White House:
Comments: 202-456-1111
And tell them what PorridgeGun said:
NO PUBLIC OPTION? NO MONEY, NO VOTES!
The problem is too much is said about paying for health care for the uninsured by “savings’ in medicare. Medicare was heading for bankruptcy in 2017 without paying for the uninsured; so we need to reduce expenditure just to save it for the seniors it is supposed to serve. The CBO says the presently proposed reforms will only save about 1% of the expenditure on medicare so they cannot possibly pay for all the uninsured and the seniors know it. Raising taxes high enough to pay for all this not only sounds bad in a recession but also would distort the economy. There is an alternative way to get the money needed to support part of the medicare cost that will explode along with baby boomer retirement. MEANS TESTING
We have known for a long time that when the baby boom retires, we will have to means test Medicare or we will overburden the working young with taxes they cannot bear. (Remember that older people on average are more affluent than the youngest taxpayers are.)Right now, the government pays about 60% and the recipient about 40%. For the relatively secure, that will have to go to 80% or so, some would pay 60% some still pay 40, some would pay 20% and some would default to medicaid when they cannot pay at all.
By having the consumers of health care pay what they can, the propensity to overconsume is lessened. In this system, you still get the health care you desire if doctors find it ethical to provide it, but you have to help pay for it.
A program of temporary visas for foreign workers will keep them in the legal health care system their employers already should be paying for. This will reduce the burden of providing free health care via the emergency room when a health crisis strikes. This is money that will not come from seniors; but from employers who will presumably benefit from healthier workers.
The route of reducing cost by rationing or restricting procedures allowed for people over certain ages will just frighten seniors and they will vote against anyone who proposes it until they die. Proposing to raise taxes enough to keep medicare from bankruptcy and cover the uninsured will also drive away voters in droves. Instead, let those who wish to consume health care and can afford to pay for it do so.
Yes, that may be reworking a social contract; but the contract that worked when people lived to 65 and people had 4.5 children can’t work when people live to 78 and only had 2.1 children to pay the bills.
Let’s do tort reform too. Democrats say that tort reform will only save 1% of medicare costs. OK that is as much as the reforms they have put on the table according to the CBO; so why is this 1% not worth it? Put malpractice into a civil claims procedure like workmen’s compensation with defined awards for defined injuries and save the cost of juries and non-economic damages.
Lots of wise political argument here. But there is a reality that is not being addressed.
The hard truth is that health care needs to be rationed. There is just not enough money to provide everyone with all the health care they would like. Supply creates its own demand.
So there are two critical issues:
1) On what basis will it be rationed? By price as now? Or on the more rational (or socialistic, depending on your perspective)basis of need?
2) How much rationing is needed? This is aka cost control through the whole system, not just the medical providers. For many reasons a single payer system is the lowest cost option - even if government run!
With any bill we are likely to get, costs will rise as more care is provided; the taxpayer will pay and the insurance companies will prosper. And care will still be rationed on the basis of ability to pay.
The current proposals won't "solve" the underlying problems, but a public option can at least be a first step. Of course, the Republicans are right - this is a Trojan Horse. But that was the way the Greeks won the War!
Nate:
1) As I noted last week, the public option was dead because every single Blue Dog in a red district was pledging to vote against it. It would not have passed the House nevertheless the Senate.
2) There may still be a way obtain an incremental public option - simply expand Medicaid to cover the lower middle class. Medicaid does not scare folks. This expansion of government health insurance will not backdoor single payer as was intended in the Obamacare plan, but will still subject millions more to government health insurance. Half a pie is better than none at all.
3) As I noted last week and you picked up on in your post, the issue is now money. Will the Blue Dogs agree to vote for a bill costing somewhere between $900-999 billion (to avoid the Trillion number) to insure the uninsured. The GOP will not help the Dems here and the Tea Party movement is simply going to shift gears against the cost because the government is already swimming in red ink and simply cannot afford it. The chances of any enormous new health care liability passing are pretty slim in my estimation.
4) This brings up lost opportunities. If insuring the uninsured was THE priority for this President and he genuinely believed as he repeatedly stated that simply having the government spend money would stimulate the economy, why not spend the Trillion on health care instead of the Prokulus and the 20% increase in the 2009 appropriations bill? The Porkulus bill was the worst mistake he could have made. The Dems were simply greedy.
5) Hat tip. You offer the best and most realistic analysis of electoral realities of any liberal commentator I have read. I believe that you are the only one to date to admit the reality that the left cannot muster a majority of voters or representatives on its own and is reliant upon the center to govern - which, of course, is also the case with conservatives. Thankfully, the left has not mastered coalition governing any better than the right (apart from brief times in the 80s and late 90s).
6) Finally, as for running primary challenges to the left of Dem reps who are "too conservative for their districts," the Dems have already run out the liberal GOP reps out of solid blue districts and replaced them with even more liberal Dems. Running primary challenges to the left of centrist Dems in red districts is a recipe for suicide. The best defense for a House district is incumbency. If Dean decides to run primary challenges as he as threatened and splits the already tenuous Dem vote in these districts, the GOP could run the local dog catchers in 50 districts and win back the House. The reason to abandon the public option in the first instance was to save these vulnerable Dems and maintain a narrow Dem majority. Why throw that away?
"People don't believe in a free lunch"
Bullshit. That's exactly what the opponents of health care reform think they're getting right now. The same people who are screaming and gnashing their teeth at the mere mention of a public option are the same ones who think that we can cut taxes as a solution to all social and economic problems even while ignoring the millions of uninsured people everywhere all over the country whose treatment is paid for by ... you guessed it, those same anti-tax ideologues, often at inflated rates, because the cost is channeled through a for-profit health care system instead of a government plan. Why don't people understand this? And I've never heard a single goddamn liberal say that they want "a free lunch." As a matter of fact, every liberal that I've ever known thinks that you should pay, is more than happy to pay, to improve the quality of life of the average American, whatever it takes. Free lunch my ass. It's the right-wing in this country that thinks that you can get something for nothing, that you can pay marginal taxes and still have quality roads, quality education, a stable and even prosperous civilization.
"the weird thing is, he is STILL better and more principled than anyone we have had in so long"
Well, yeah, in politics you're always either horrified or disappointed, pick your poison. I'm not prepared to say that I'll never vote for a Democrat again, that's foolish. I still support Obama. But I am considering taking up another hobby, one that's a little easier on my soul, like quilting or playing the theremin, because the ugliness and the ignorance is starting to get to me.
TommyReport: I don't know if you still read this down here, but yeah, I fully concede that if DailyKos polled in a likely-voter universe, they'd have Obama at 53% or so rather than 60%. I just don't see a reason for excluding non-voters.
Mike in Maryland says:
"IF the public option is now off the table (and I'm not convinced that it is), there is a good possibility of a silver lining in all this.
The Democrats can make sure the public knows that it was the Party of NO! that killed the public option.."
So the party with 40 votes in the Senate and 178 votes in the House killed the public option???? Good luck selling that idea.
There are many reasons the bill is failing, the fact it doesn't add up in numbers or in rhetoric being two of them. Blue Dogs were skeptical way before the town halls, because they were not allowed any input (and neither were Republicans). The bill is being shoved down everyone's throat by the Administration on a take or leave it basis. The fact many are opting to leave it should not be a surprise.
I am in that peculiar position that it seems most of you are not:
1. My Congressman (Elijah Cummings) is mostly in support of all the bills now coming out of the committees, EXCEPT for the co-op plan in the Senate Finance Committee bill;
2. Both of my Senators are also mostly in support of all the bills now coming out of the committees, EXCEPT for the co-op plan in the Senate Finance Committee bill.
In fact, all three members of my Congressional delegation are of the opinion that the bills now in or reported from the committees are just the floor of what should be the final version of health care reform.
If I still lived where I grew up in Indiana, though, my representative would be Mark Souder - possibly the most liberal of the 4 Indiana GOOPers in the House (but that doesn't say much, as he's probably a 1.75 on a scale of 1-10, and the other 3 GOOPers are probably somewhere between a 1.0 and 1.5); and the two Senators are Richard Lugar (not likely to vote very far outside the 'GOOPer consensus') and Blue Dog leader Evan Bayh.
All in all, though, I find it preferable to be represented on Capital Hill by people I agree with than to be represented by idiots.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
I knew it was only a matter of time before you sold old and became a Blue-Dog, Nate.
Okay,
this is the very first comment I've ever published. Rather than mourning the unlikliness of the public option, how about we all work our butts off for it.
Go to this site to find amazing events in your area http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/ofhcfindevent/
if none of those work out you can phonebank to bluedog districts from home using the site healthcare.barackobama.com
Just remember:
The big lobbiests have all the influence money can buy, but WE have all the influence that money can't buy.
With hard work and devotion, can we manege to pass a comprehensive health-care bill with a strong public option this year?
YES WE CAN
now get to work, all of you. Again, the website is: http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/ofhcfindevent/
Guys,
I hope the public option is not dead. I would be sad and disappointed. I would still support BO but he would have loss some respect (although its not entirely his fault).. I hope the bluedogs loose their seat sooon :(
There are still some other sticky wickets to be negotiated that haven't even surfaced yet. The most important is the combination of an individual mandate and the inability to deny pre-existing conditions. Obviously, there is little incentive to purchase insurance before becoming ill if you can buy it after becoming ill. Thus, the requirement to already have insurance. But what would stop someone from upgrading their coverage once they become ill? If insurance companies are open season to being picked off in such a way, the cost of insurance for everybody goes up.
Also, there are plenty of other ways to stimulate competition without a so-called public option. The most logical of those are to allow people to buy across state lines and to eliminate mandates for unwanted coverages. Competition will work if it's unshackled.
While I agree that a public option should be left on the table, forming non-profit, German-style health insurance co-operatives would be just as much a "public option" as would a centralized, HHS system. There would have to be guarantees written into the co-operatives enabling statutes that would ban "demutualization" i.e.; a Co-op going out of business could only transfer its assets and customers to another non-profit, not to a for profit insurer. But other than that there may be real advantages with going with the Co-op model.
cruses99610 said...
And why should tort reform be included? Because it would reduce costs for liability insurance for doctors and hospitals and businesses. Democrats don't want tort reform because trial lawyers are big contributors, pure and simple. So the "cost reduction" aspect sounds as hollow as the "competition" aspect.
Cruses?
You call that, as I called for, "a complete discussion of how tort reform can save us money, including how much"?
If that is your strongest argument, you will win over exactly zero people.
Demonstrate exactly how the current tort system hurts people, and how much it will save if the tort system is saved.
Like Senator McCaskill asked at a town hall last week, Missouri instituted some of the most restrictive tort reforms in the nation, but no one attending the town hall was willing to aver that their insurance costs dropped.
You, 'cruses', argue in the typical GOOPer, wingnut manner - "I feel it in my gut, so it MUST be, HAS TO BE, true. And because I believe it to be true, everyone else is telling a lie."
So, 'cruses', give me some solid reasons and demonstration of how tort reform will lower health care costs - not just talking points, but actual FACTS or studies.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596
To the couple of commenters touting tort reform as a source of significant savings:
Per Barrons, see http://tinyurl.com/ox52v4
FOR ALL THE UNCERTAINTIES IN today's world, there's at least one safe bet: Unhappy patients will continue to sue their doctors. And that is excellent news for American Physicians Capital , a specialized provider of malpractice insurance for doctors.
"It's difficult to find any company more insulated from economic weakness than this one," says Michael Nannizzi, an analyst with Oppenheimer. Doctors, he points out, have little choice but to buy malpractice insurance, and that has made for a $10 billion-a-year industry in the U.S.
Repeat that number, and remember it--$10 billion annually.
Now compare this to the total US national health care market. Here is the data source: http://tinyurl.com/pv2kc9
In 2008 the national health expenditure was about $2.4 trillion.
Doing the math (10B/2.4T) and you find out that the entire malpractice insurance market is only .4% of the market.
You read that right: malpractice inusrance, including coverage of all litigation costs and award payments, totals less than one half of one percent of the market.
So why don't one of you guys show me how saving a maximum of less than one half of one percent of the total cost of health care is going to provide significant savings?
Tort reform is a red herring.
BTW that Barron's article I linked above is a short, excellent read about the subject of malpractice insurance.
What you don't realize, Nate, is that for the progressive wing of the party, this is no longer just about health care reform. Rather, this is about a continuing pattern that's played itself out in the Democratic party for a long time now. The progressive wing of the party routinely gets treated like shit, not only by the conservative wing, but by the party leadership, as well.
Someone on another blog was talking about this today. The Democrats are a diverse coalition. And the way you keep a diverse coalition together is by giving everyone something important that they want, and asking them to sacrifice something less important so that other members of the coalition can get what they want. You don't ask all the sacrifices to come from the same group of people all the time. That's idiotic--and yet, it's exactly what the Democratic leadership has done, time and time again.
And, to make matters even worse, the people that they're favoring are the least loyal members of the party, and the people that they're screwing over are the most loyal!
So, let me be clear. For me (and I suspect for a lot of progressives out there), this is no longer about a public health insurance option. Rather, it's about the pattern of behavior by the Democratic leadership where they tell us that we need to eat shit to make the DLCers/Blue Dogs (and yes, even the Republicans) happy, and give us nothing in return. Well, as a progressive, I've eaten a lot of shit over the past six months. The war supplemental. The watered-down stimulus bill. Expansion of the war in Afghanistan. Refusal to prosecute Bush administration lawbreakers. Lack of action on DOMA and DADT. And on and on. And this isn't even getting into what happened during the Bush administration.
I'll tell you right now, I am done eating shit. It's time for the Democratic leadership to give me something I want. It's time for them to show me that there's a benefit to my being in their coalition. If they can't or won't do that when they control the White House, have 60 Democratic Senators, and a huge House majority, it's pretty obvious that they are never going to. And that means that there is no reason for me to give them my money, my time, my energy, or even my vote, all of which I have repeatedly given in the past.
That's how I feel. I can only speak for myself, of course--but I strongly suspect that I'm not alone.
Joey: Reports are now saying AP spoke too soon and the public option is not dead.
I wonder if maybe the WH floated the story as a possibility to see what sort of backlash there would be, to see how fucking outraged liberals would become.
The DNC need to cause the rabid dogs some pain. Threaten them. Realise that they have obligations to someone other than the insurance companies.
Ok Mike from Maryland, here is one study, executed no doubt by GOP wingnuts, as probably you would define anyone who doesn't believe in a public option.
"The Pacific Research Institute estimates American physicians spend $124 billion each year in defensive medicine-more than half of the total 2006 U.S. national deficit! A 2003 Health and Human Services report estimated tort reform would save Medicare and Medicaid between $30 and $50 billion dollars every year. This savings does not include patients with employer-based insurance.
Tort reform will not only increase patient access to life-saving medical specialties such as obstetrics, trauma surgery, and neurosurgery, it will save between $60 and $80 billion each year without restricting access to care.
When the $50 billion savings of patient based insurance (Insurance Reform) is combined with the $70 billion savings of Tort Reform, we can reduce healthcare spending in the United States by approximately $120 billion each year without restricting access to care. These savings more than pay for the $80 billion plan (Tax Reform) to cover the uninsured Americans who earn less than $50,000.
By making healthcare work more efficiently through Insurance Reform, Tax Reform, and Tort Reform, we can save $40 billion dollars every year while giving every American access to care. Every government based National Health System in the world controls cost by restricting access to care. There is a better way."
Jeff, STFU.
You you too, Rudy.
Democrats won 2006 because of Bush's criminal mishandling of Katrina, Republican corruption and progressive/independent opposition to the Iraq occupation. Hillary would've been the Dem nominee if not for her Iraq vote, and the 2008 arguably would have been a lot closer if she had been.
BTW, Virginia's Jim Webb, Ohio's Sherrod Brown and Pennysylvania's Bob Casey, for example, are far more progressive a host of issues than the likes of California's Dianne Feinstein. So, the whole wingnut argument that Democrats only won 2006 and 2008 because they ran conservatives is a load of bollocks. I could give you other examples if you like?
From Marc Ambinder:
Administration Official: "Sebelius Misspoke."
An administration official said tonight that Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius "misspoke" when she told CNN this morning that a government run health insurance option "is not an essential part" of reform. This official asked not to be identified in exchange for providing clarity about the intentions of the President. The official said that the White House did not intend to change its messaging and that Sebelius simply meant to echo the president, who has acknowledged that the public option is a tough sell in the Senate and is, at the same time, a must-pass for House Democrats, and is not, in the president's view, the most important element of the reform package.
A second official, Linda Douglass, director of health reform communications for the administration, said that President Obama believed that a public option was the best way to reduce costs and promote competition among insurance companies, that he had not backed away from that belief, and that he still wanted to see a public option in the final bill.
"Nothing has changed.," she said. "The President has always said that what is essential that health insurance reform lower costs, ensure that there are affordable options for all Americans and increase choice and competition in the health insurance market. He believes that the public option is the best way to achieve these goals."
more...
http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/08/administration_official_sebelius_misspoke.php
After seeing President Obama perform very impressively in his town halls this week, i felt the Democrats were regaining the initiative on health care reform. Thus I was disturbed this morning to read that the public option component of health care reform might be off the table. I can't fanthom why the Democrats would do this when it is such a key to true reform. The idea of substituting an "exchange" is ludicrous. It will not accomplish the type of reform that is needed and that is to give the private health insurers some much needed competition. And if the reason we are thinking of jettisoning the public option is to achieve bi-partisanship, that is a mirage. The Republican's will not support any type of reform no matter what scraps of support they throw out in public. They sense the opportunity to sink the Obama presidency and will go all out to once again defeat reform just as they did in 1993.
Even though I fought hard for the President in 2008, I am willing to go the extra mile for health care reform also, which is why I am writing you, and also walking through my neigborhood to solicit views on health care reform. I hope you will support the President fully in fighting for the public option and not caving in to the Republicans. After all it was we who won the election in November 2008, not them and elections have consequences.
I know I am speaking for millions of other American's who want our President to succeed on the most important issue facing us today. When I saw the thousands of people lining up this week in Los Angeles to receive free medical care I was hearbroken to realize that America is the only industrialized country in the world that would have to resort to this type of care usually provided in third world countries. Our country is better than that and we need you to fight for us in passing significant health care reform this year with a public option.
"Administration Official: "Sebelius Misspoke."
I think the horse has already left the barn.
Responding to PorridgeGun, Hillary woould have won, albeit a closer margin, and she would have carried Florida and Ohio.
Would she have learned from her 1993-94 mistakes? I'm not sure.
Burt: Three cheers - right on. To answer Nate's original question, what we need is a clear floor vote in the House and Senate on a public option amendment, so we know who our friends are and who needs to have a primary.
excellent research, Brewert...yup, the tort reform has always been a red herring, and no surprise cruses would dig up a "study" by the far right self-described "the Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, is a prominent California-based conservative think tank " to refute that tor insurance costs 0.4% of the cost of health care. Btw, industry profit, marketing and advertising costs 15%, but don't let that bother you, cruses and others who have no better reTORT
Nate S. --Nicely written, kudos to the perspective
Porridge, I'm so glad you took my suggestion to go pound sand. You'll be back in sorts in no time.
"You know, I would like to see if some numbers can be run on how many jobs have been lost to other countries with universal health care."
Can we please lay to rest this idiotic argument. Yes, in the US employers have to provide health insurance to their workers. Guess what, in Canada, France - everywhere with universal healthcare, employers provide health insurance for their workers THROUGH TAXES.
Employer healthcare hurts labour-intensive businesses like sweatshops or low-tech manufacturing but benefits capital intensive businesses like IT who would otherwise pay a greater proportion of the taxes.
Of course if you believe that some form of universal healthcare would help with cost control it is another story (incidentally I do think this is somewhat the case). However, the usual way in which that argument is presented is deeply flawed, and devoid of any understanding of opportunity cost.
Actually, it's already surprising that there IS a discussion about a public option. A few years ago, it would have been impossible. Clinton and Dean had no such plans. We have to see.... there will not be a public option in the Finance Commitee bill, that's for sure... But to imagine that some kind of public option doesn't come into the bill after negotiations with the HELP commitee and THEN the conference commitee would be astounding - just because it would demonstrate the power of the insurance companies.
On the other hand, I suspect that some of yesterday's comments were about setting expectations. Progressives won't get everything they want, but the insurance companies and Big Pharma won't get it either, that's the way it is - remember that the progressive caucus has threatened not to vote for anything that doesn't have a public option. That's pretty brutal if you think about it...
But the progressives have to be patient. They should be working to cut the finance industry bit by bit - it will take decades. Get what you can get right now, and let demographics run their course.
Last month, I read Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" and it was very interesting to notice the stamina of the Chicago Economics School. They took 40 years to get us to an unregulated bubble economy that slightly resembled the 1920's. These people are very powerful and very rich, you can't beat them in an open war, you have to do it bit by bit, guerilla-style so to say.
I joined the Democrats because they said they had lots of pussy. Little did I know...
I could support tort reform if it included a real mechanism for removing incompetent health care providers but that is unlikely to happen. I think we could, as a society, benefit from less litigation but there have to be other ways of addressing situations that are now currently addressed by the courts. Right now even in the rare case where a doctor loses his license, he can move to another state and practice there. The only consequence for incompetency is financial.
Also, some have mentioned the need to ration care. I think this is false. We would not need to ration care if we could pay for more providers. We could pay for more providers by paying them less. One way of paying less is to use more lower-level providers; e.g. nurse practitioners. Another is simply to pay people less. There is so much resistance to both solutions that I don't know that they will ever be implemented but these are choices we are making. We can provide care for everyone just not in the current framework.
I would like to see more factual information regarding how 'insurance companies' killed the public option. My doubts are 2 folds:
- Sen. Graham on Ezra's blog gave good reasoning why many Senators and Americans do not want to see increase in government involvement (basically it will land up into a single player system) and
- Obama could have used this 'insurance killing Public Plan' line to hilt on stump if it were true. Already he is making them villain.
Next another question - how do we know that Public Plan will be perfectly balanced so that neither it forces Private Plans out of market (at which point it becomes single player system) nor increases the deficit. Do you think such a balance was achievable in the first place? That seems hard.
Finally, is there any chance for Rahm's proposal of 'conditional public plan', contingent upon Private Insurance playing by new rules, else Public plan comes into force later?
If Obama wins second term, how hard it is for him to argue that Private Plans have not worked and hence he would introduce a public plan? Hopefully, by then economy has improved which means ability to support Public Plan would have increased too? It is a gamble, but does not seem like a totally hopeless situation for that.
elections have consequences.
Quite true. As does alienating independants.
It's amazing to see how quickly Obama supporters in this thread are ready to jump ship ... I think Nate's presentation of the reality of the situation is compelling.
The structure of our gov't and the procedures of legislation (not to mention members of Congress in bed w/ insurance industry) is not something Obama can snap his fingers and fix. Could he have been a lot more aggressive ... hell yes! But, all those who are pissing and moaning and ready to pin this 100% on Obama need to chill out.
What's next ... a bunch of people voting for Repubs in '10 just to "spite" Obama because they feel personally insulted. Get over it.
We are 7 months into this administration -- there's a lot of time and a lot of work to do. Obama never said it would be easy.
Our President is getting his first taste of going against the insurance industry, which is, make no mistake about it, a CARTEL, no longer the intended business model originally created to protect in an event of a loss, with their hands in all elections, all the time and process as much money as our government and in fact controls many public policies. Currently, what the insurance industry wants, the industry gets. They feel that no one is too big for them. With profits paramount, currently running health care as well as auto collision repair in there unsuccessfully dysfunctional way with no one to challenge them, as well as crushing free enterprise with their referral systems. When US States successfully created affordable government run workman’s comp insurance for business, the system currently works extremely well, with government achieving a much higher level of service at half the cost, but not surprisingly the insurance industry attempts to abolish the program every legislation cycle. They complain about being in competition with the government, but have no regard to health care patients well being, care facilities or the collision repair stores they our putting out of business daily by pushing all the patients or damaged autos through locations they own or have interest in, aggressively via referral systems. Insures are in competition with all businesses they pay claims to. From health care to auto repair. The insurance industry is currently a competitor to businesses and crushes whom they feel like, with no Federal Trade Commissions stopping them. The insurance industry controls the largest majority of claims service rendered. Free competition is long gone but seriously needs to be restored. I believe government should not just challenge the insurance industry, but to do its job and control them. I wish a leader to challenge the cartel, not give in to greed, and win. Mr. Obama, please don’t give up. The insurance industry can and should be restored back into its intended purpose. The insurance industry currently has more money than local governments and is right behind the federal government with regards to cash flow. They have hand placed policy makers in all levels of our government, federally and local. This presents serious threats to our government and should be investigated by the Federal Trades Commission, FBI and the CIA to ensure the stability of our government.
They have 257 seats in the House and 60 in the Senate, but the Democrats can't enact health reform worthy of the name.
It's the end. It was a good run, Democrats, but the game's over. And don't call it murder. This was a suicide.
Quite frankly, I don't give a rat's ass who wins the mid-term election in 2010. IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER. the results are the same regardless of which party "wins"
Just come out and say it: No difference between Bush and Gore. No difference between Bush and Gore. Keep chanting it and you might even start convincing the idiot faction again.
If the Democrats don't pass anything, they will fail. The Senate Finance committee has from the get-go been working on co-ops. On that committee, they public-option was never alive. I don't get why people and MSM never saw this action. Are people blind? Oh, well. If co-ops don't work then Progressives can say, I told you so.
I would like to know the name of the congressmen and women that changed their vote due to lobbyist influence. They should not win the next election if they base their votes on corporation desires rather than the desires of the american people.
Please continue to contact your reps and your senators if you want the public option kept in.
Watch Beck's capitalistic cure to health care. He essentially says to let rich people pay for expensive treatments, while the rest of us wait years for the price to fall. Sure beats a public option.
Here is the clip.
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2575
No Public Option means Barack Obama is a failure.
He can go fuck his wife because no one else should ever look favorably on this mewling coward of a man.
What a waste.
"Oh, well. If co-ops don't work then Progressives can say, I told you so."
Unfortunately, it won't work that way. When,not if, co-ops don't work, the Republicans are going to say: "We didn't want any of this anyway. We told you so.".
Hate to say it, but the Dems got totally outplayed here, and BO sat on the sidelines and watched.
Do Blue Dog Democrats seriously believe that if they kill the public option that those folks standing outside the townhalls with posters depicting Obama as Hitler will then vote for the Blue Dog in 2010? Do Blue Dogs further believe that the large majority of their own party (79%) that wants major changes to healthcare will come out to vote for them if they fail to deliver those changes?
Conservatives are conservatives and not only will they not vote for the Democrat, the outcome of healthcare won't change their intensity one whit. In a Gallup poll 64% of Republicans said that a major cause of the (anti-healthcare) town hall protests were pre-existing views. That is to say, the Democrats could put forward plans ranging from Medicare For All to minor tweaking around the edges of the issue, and the GOP would still vociferously oppose it just on general principle.
Meanwhile, 49% of Democrats say that efforts by right wing activists, as opposed to entrenched conservative views, are the major cause of opposition. This seems to imply that conservatives can be negotiated with in good faith and are willing to compromise, reaching a reasonable middle point. These Democrats are, by the GOP's own tacit admission in the same poll, flat wrong.
(59% of Independents agree with GOP respondents that the opposition is due to pre-existing and presumably immutable views on healthcare.)
In a Marist poll, 67% of registered voters say that healthcare needs major changes. This is not a number that should be dismissed or ignored by Blue Dogs. Those are people who will see anything less than "major change" as a failure for the Dems (especially with the GOP already pushing the "Democratic Failure" meme), or at the very least are willing to try a major overhaul and see how it works out.
Worst Case Scenario for Blue Dogs: The region that has the lowest rate of people wanting major changes is the South, where I am, at a still very high 61%. Even 47% of Republicans and 68% of independents want major changes.
To prove my point I'll ask two simple questions to the people on this board: For the conservatives here, if the healthcare bill passes with no public option, will you personally therefore vote for the Democrat in next year's congressional elections and Obama in 2012? And for the liberals here, if the Dems wind up doing little or nothing to overhaul healthcare will you be more or less likely to actively support (donate to, campaign for, vote for) the Democratic candidates in those elections?
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/usapolls/us090803/Health%20Care%20Release/Current%20Health%20Care%20System%20Changes.htm
The way I read this is that Nate does not believe that Obama, and those in his administration, have the political skill of a Johnson who also didn't have the votes for a piece of landmark legislation in the 60's.
The problem with these types of analyses is that they start and end with numbers that most can not argue with, practically. Sometimes the numbers aren't able to tell the story well. What they can tell you is where the weak spots are. I would much rather see Nate apply his formidable analytical skills to these weak spots.
How did Johnson move the votes? How does that compare with today? What political skills are missing - or are being poorly used - that the Obama administration could bring to bear on the policy discussion?
That's the analysis that I'd like to see. Not why we'll lose, but how we could win.
Sorry for any typos. Created on an iPhone.
It appears we are in the first stage of grief (denial) over the likely loss of the public option.
It will be interesting, the White house move away from the need for the public option may perversely generate some more support for it among the general public and maybe in congress. I doubt this, but stranger things have happened.
Nate wrote:
"Hopefully, if the Democrats are giving up on the public option, they're at least getting something for their willingness to compromise, such as a stronger employer mandate and more aggressive regulations on insurance premiums."
This is the problem. So far Obama seems to be in the giving away mode, rather than the negotiating mode. I have no hope that they'll get any meaningful concessions in exchange for giving up the public option. He seems to want to salvage a victory in name only, without consideration for how this affects the people he purportedly wants to help. Very disillusioning.
count me among those that says hell no to a bill without a public option. Those that say ' well some bill is better than no bill' -fuck that. I don't give a rat's ass about the Democrats being able to say they passed ' a healthcare bill', if it's complete and utter bullshit that doesn't fix the problems. and yes, I place the blame for a public option at Obama's feet. He didn't fight for it AT ALL.
Sometimes reality has to be faced. Thanks for the reality-check. We need to get as much as we can and then work hard in 2010 to elect even more Ds and progressives and then clean it up. Deciding to vote out Ds or Obama gets us nowhere. An R president or Congress would surely mess up the budget for health care even further. The goal now is to hamstring the Republican party and strip from them any semblance of power. Send a shiver up their spine by getting more Rs out of office so they can't even bargain. Plus a strong showing in '10 would show the conservative Ds in the Senate and the 'Blue Dogs' that we & the President were right, that they capitulated and bargained with people who had no interest in a fair exchange.
The option of Reconciliation is explained in the following post and seems of limited utility. http://blog.oup.com/2009/08/power-of-reconciliation/.
And every day we do not get reform of some type and cover more or all people, people die because of the delay. Delay is the real 'death panel'.
Or, Obama and the Democrats could try a flea-flicker. Right now, this scenario looks like a standard fullback dive into the line. Three yards (if you're lucky) and a cloud of dust.
But what if they toss the ball back to Obama and it the message was "public option or nothing"/ Anyone against it was in the pocket of the insurance industry and picking the pockets of american consumers and businesses.
Making insurance companies behave like altruistic organizations is not going to work. They make money by not paying claims. That won't change unless there is an organization that doesn't care about profits (just cost containment) competiting against them.
The public appreciates BIG and risky ploys and plays, like the flea-flicker. Even if it doesn't work, it loosens up the defense. For 2010, I'd rather have the issue than the bogus "accomplishment" of healthcare reform that had no teeth.
@Allen
I have no doubt Obama lacks the legislative skills of LBJ. But it's an unfair comparison; LBJ was a maestro of orchestrating legislation. What other president even comes close? Lincoln, maybe, when he used the opportunity of secession to push through the Homestead Act, Pacific Railway Act, the first Federal Income Tax and Land Grant Colleges. FDR was equally skilled in manipulating SCOTUS, when he threatened to expand the court if they weren't more amenable to the New Deal.
Even if Obama had LBJ's skills, though, I'm not sure he would use them. He seems to genuinely believe in clearly defined constitutional roles for the seperate branches. While this is a refreshing change from the Bush-Cheney unitary executive model, it doesn't lend itself well to sweeping social changes. A capitulation of power to the legislature almost always leads to milquetoast policies cobbled together in committee.
This is politics, not group therapy. The Democrats should take a page from the Karl Rove handbook. Rally the deep base, bully the near base, ply the middle, ignore the near opposition and villainize the deep opposition. It's evil, but evil just works.
Your are correct that a meaningful public option was not winnable -- provided you begin with the premise that Obama didn't want to win on this issue. However, we do not know whether a public option would have been winnable had Obama wanted it and been willing to fight for it. Without going into detail about what that would have looked like, I would merely note that it would have looked a hell of lot different from what we have seen and are seeing.
Your analysis presupposes a static political reality, in which the absence of progressive conviction, tactical creativity and political courage in the White House is treated as a constant.
It is certainly true that we were not going to get a public option, given Obama's approach. As to what could have been achieved by a popular President willing to fight with passion, vigor and courage against the insurance industry and its Congressional lapdogs? This we will never know.
Nate, thanks for posting this. It clears up a lot of things.
According to the Congressional Budget Office in January 2004, medical malpractice costs constituted only TWO PERCENT of the total cost of healthcare in the United States. Other figures from Public Citizen show that malpractice costs represent only 0.62 percent of the nation’s expenditures for health care.
“The hard, factual evidence cannot be any clearer: We have no medical malpractice lawsuit crisis in America,” said Joan Claybrook, president of Public Citizen. “Insurance companies may be padding their bottom lines by jacking up rates on doctors, but it is not because of patients seeking relief for bad medical care through our courts. The true crisis continues to be in inadequate measures for patient safety and incompetent medical care by a small number of physicians.”
Nate, thanks for this.
I do not understand why nobody is asking the conservative "Democrats" why they are opposed to the public option. I never heard any of them answer this question. Just saying there are not the votes in the Senate w.o any explication why is intelectually dishonest.
Let's take the important metrics of the reform everybody agrees on:
1. Univresality - No doubt a plan with public option will insure more people.
2. Choice - The public option only increases choice.
3. Affordability and 4. Cost - No doubt the price to insure a person or a family in the public option will be smaller than pay or subsidize the corresponding premium for the same coverage in a private plan.
So if more universal, more choices, more affordable, and will cost less why are these conservative "D" opposed (especially on cost how they square this with their deficit hawkiness)?
If asked the only remaining answer for them is ideological (the free market vs Big Gov, bla, bla, bla..).
If that were they go than we'll all know they are just GOP in disguise, enjoying all the perks of the majority and then stubbing their D colleagues in the back.
Progressives have a nasty habit of becoming enamored of policy proposals and losing sight of the reason those proposals existed in the first place. Instead of rallying for affordable, effective and universal health care, their hopes and reams get pinned to a slogan (single-payer, public option, etc.)
I think single-payer or, barring that, a strong public option are necessary to produce true cost containment. But to suggest that these amorphous concepts should be the "line in the sand" in any battle is to seriously hobble yourself going into battle.
No one ever gets everything they want in political fights. But progressives and liberals seem to be really crippled by their belief that, if they don't get everything they want, they must have been betrayed.
Anthony said...
According to the Congressional Budget Office in January 2004, medical malpractice costs constituted only TWO PERCENT of the total cost of healthcare in the United States. Other figures from Public Citizen show that malpractice costs represent only 0.62 percent of the nation’s expenditures for health care.
These studies only include actual judgments awarded. The problem is far, far greater than that:
1) There are enormous legal costs in all cases, won or lost. The only way to deal with these costs is through insurance, which adds to the cost with its profit. The resulting insurance premiums are upward of a half million dollars a year for a specialist.
2) Specialists are getting out of the high costs areas like pediatrics, creating a shortage of physicians in those areas, further driving up costs.
3) Finally, doctors practice defensive medicine and order the work ups that even Obama considers to be unnecessary and a large cause of health care inflation.
Well Nate as always your point is clear and concise. I could never figure how the majority of Americans could want something and the legislature could be so blind. I've been working the past couple months with OFA trying to push for health care - I thought I was working hard to insure there would be a public option. Today I feel completely defeat. Adam Santelli
Nosimplehiway - I hear you loud and clear. It would still be an interesting excercise to se how many senators were moved during the Medicare fight - and the methods used to move them. There's always something to be found in the past that can be applied to the present.
I also think that Obama has shown a little antipathy towards the separation of powers vis-a-vis his newly found penchant for Bush style presidential powers. I don't think he would object to a little LBJ if someone happened to point the way.
In any case, it will be interesting to see how he responds if/when the republicans say no to even the most watered down of health care legislation.
I'm still hoping, though, that he figures out that great presidents aren't remembered for their bipartisan skills, but rather for enacting meaningful change. I want him to get in touch with his inner FDR and LBJ and get it done. That's what I voted for.
Scoring legislation for money saving based purely on the federal budget is disingenuous, at best, and a ruse, at worst. This says nothing about overall costs to society. These policies do nothing to control the costs of healthcare, and much to perversely influence its acceleration. Costs will shift from government to individuals and employers. Screwing around with the fiscal impact to the feds is only part of the equation.
Nate,
Your predictions do not equate to "truth". I think you're getting a little full of yourself here. As an example of your prediction problems I would point to your PECOTA estimates for the 2009 Angels, currently the best hitting team in MLB, by far. However, PECOTA underestimated just about every single player the Angels have sent to the plate this season. It ranked tha Angels as a weak hitting team, one of the worst in baseball. That prediction obviously blows, as I believe does your prediction on the eventual fate of the public option in a health care reform bill.
Thanks Nate for a clear and level headed analysis.
Problem is, I don't think this is going to be the last concession. Remember what the stimulus bill ended up looking like—a huge giveaway to the banks, with a couple of fillips for the upper middle class and nothing, nothing, for anyone with an income under $100,000/year. This is probably going to end up the similar: a huge giveaway to the insurance companies, a somewhat smaller giveaway to big pharma, and an inadequately-funded mandate that’s going to hurt the middle class a lot.
Tell me again why I can support that. It's probably going to hurt me, personally, a lot. It's probably going to hurt almost everyone I know.
Krawk!
I think,your predictions do not equate to "truth". I think you're getting a little full of yourself here.There must be fair,to think this over.
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Sometimes, how you start says a lot about how you will finish. On this health care debate, Obama started poorly and simply allowed Obama haters(not necessarily opponents of health care reform), play the classic whip-a-few -issues-crazy (recall: condoms in the stimulus bill that was dropped)to the detriment of the bill. But 80% of something is better than nothing though base Dems should not overestimate their Washington majority anymore than Congressional Dems fear to test it. I think by and large, Dems must have a good (although not perfect) bill before 2010 cos the GOP still has nothing and the absence of Democratic accomplishment is a stronger GOP tool than a non-perfect record. Moreover, the Dems don't have any regional weakness the GOP can exploit like the South was to Dems in 1994. Obama knows this and figured he can hit the GOP twice by getting a sellable Bill to non-base voters w/o exposing enough targets for the GOP to pick. Finally, this preserves a future issue; if 5-10 yrs later, we still have a health care crisis and the only remaining solution is a public option, then you can run with that and let the GOP answer why they want to keep the status quo.
Good article, interesting comments.
I won't really miss the public option, frankly - because it was watered down to irrelevance.
http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/20/bait-and-switch-how-the-%E2%80%9Cpublic-option%E2%80%9D-was-sold/
If a passes bill that prevents insurers from turning down people with pre-existing conditions, outlaws recision, and manages to lower costs, it will be a big win. In fact, any of those three would be a win.
I think the US population has been too conditioned to fear socialism AND there's too much lobbyist power in DC for the for-profit system to be replaced any time soon.
@Bart DePalma
Ah! Excellent! So, if Democrats would only agree to a limit on punitive damages for malpractice cases, you personally and the GOP as a whole would sign on to an otherwise wide-scale healthcare reform like 61% of registered voters and 48% of Republicans want? If we accept tort reform, then you'll offer in return... what?... Medicare For All? A Public Option, modeled on Tri-Care or the FEHBP? British NHS and Veteran's Administration style publicly owned healthcare? If we give on tort reform what exactly are you putting on the table?
But, wait, my hunch is that tort reform is just another red herring amendment the GOP is offering, to create the illusion of a willingness to negotiate, while still refusing to support the core initiative. Remind me again, exactly what is the GOP plan for fixing healthcare, anyway? Allowing insurance to be purchased across state lines, so that the insurance companies can all nominally move to Delaware or South Dakota and benefit from their lax regulations (like the credit card companies)? Maybe privatizing medicare, like the GOP wanted to privatize Social Security (what would grandma's social security check look like today if SS had bought into the stock market in, oh say, 2006)? Tax credits that would only help the rich (numbers available upon request)? Or can you, with a straight face, tell me that extending the patents on biological meds will fix the system?
The reason the GOP is so angry over healthcare is that the Dems have called their bluff. We said, "Put up or shut up." And the GOP had nothing in their hands, but a 7-2 offsuit.
(PS: Bart, though I often disagree with you, I like you and how you think. This board is better for having you on it.)
@Allen
That's a very good point. Can anyone here name one president who is regularly in the top 10 of "Best President" polls who was thought of as a quiet, laid back executive, looking for congress to lead the way and willing to compromise his policies beyond the point of recognition? Washington had his Loyalists during the Revolution (and the Whiskey rebellion). FDR had the courts. TR had his own party. Reagan had Tip O'Neill. Lincoln literally almost lost half the country. Hamilton and Jefferson had, well, one another. And let's face it, Adams pissed off everyone. Calm acquiesence and polite negotiation is the road to Millard Fillmore-dom.
So I just saw a clip of Dean saying this is all song and dance, and that a public option will be in the bill by the time it gets to the president's desk in December.
Is he full of shit?
Dammit Nate, do you have to be right all the time?
Nosimplehiway said...
If we accept tort reform, then you'll offer in return... what?
Nothing. Just because tort reform is a good idea on its own hardly means that I or most in the GOP would agree to sell out our health care system to achieve it.
Furthermore, do not put your problems on us. You Dems control the House, have a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and occupy the White House. The GOP could not stop you if it wanted to.
The operative facts are that a majority of voters oppose Obamacare and thus you Dems cannot muster a majority of your members to enact Obamacare.
Ain't governing a bitch?
I think it is said that we have to continually settle, and settle for a lite version of whatever is at stake. The fact that a public option saves money and makes us healthier is a no brainer. Why do we have to put up with these crooked politicians and the greed hounds? Why are the dumb and uninformed seem to always get their way? The system is so entirely rigged that it seems they all should be fired. Why aren't there more democratic leaders flooding every medium out there with facts. Oh thats right everyone is getting paid by the insurance industry...
You're missing something vital.
If there is no public option, and there *are* mandates, the political backlash will be incalculable. There are lifelong Democrats who will vote *Republican* just to kill the giant subsidy to the health insurance leeches.
Unfortunately, everyone seems to be on board with mandates right now. So a bill with mandates -- means a public option is vital in order to survive the next election.
Progressives win HUGE if they kill a bill with mandates and no public option. Democrats lose HUGE if they pass a bill with mandates and no public option.
The public option is therefore essential to healthcare reform, unless we can get rid of the goddamn mandates.
"When, roughly speaking, did your country become so corrupt? Has it always been like this, with corporate lobbies just blatantly buying public representatives? Or was there some historical fork in the road?"
Andrew Jackson, if I'm not mistaken. 1820.
"Employer healthcare hurts labour-intensive businesses like sweatshops or low-tech manufacturing but benefits capital intensive businesses like IT who would otherwise pay a greater proportion of the taxes."
....but you leave out a vital fact. It also hurts STARTUPS, because startups are small businesses, and small businesses, because they have a smaller pool of employees, pay *MUCH MUCH MUCH* higher premiums than large businesses -- and it hurts ENTREPENEURS, because getting insurance as an individual is essentially unaffordable ($1100/mo in NY). So only very big businesses gain. Small businesses, regardless of the field, win if they move to Canada.
"If a passes bill that prevents insurers from turning down people with pre-existing conditions, outlaws recision, and manages to lower costs, it will be a big win. In fact, any of those three would be a win."
The first two are already in place in NY. Lowering costs? Only two ways to do it: a public option, or price controls. The public option is better, though frankly I'd settle for outright price controls on insurance companies.
We won't be paying for a Public Option from our taxes.
Period.
That is one big lie that Obama and the Dems need to address NOW
@Bart De Palma
Medicare For All would greatly reduce the cost of lawsuits in itself. After all, if the plaintiff were not paying the cost of fixing the medical mistake, then healthcare costs would not be part of compensatory damages paid to the patient. (As an aside, an American version of the British NHS might trigger the Feres doctrine, Gonzalez Law, the Public Health Service Act or simple sovereign immunity for all participating doctors, effectively outlawing medical torts.)
But why wait for congress to act? If medical tort reform is such a good idea, you'd be willing to sign a waiver with your insurer, hospital and physicians that no matter what sort of simple error or gross negligence they may commit you will never, under any circumstances, seek or accept a damage award for punitive damages or pain&suffering, right? Because that's what you advocate the American people do, en masse.
If an anesthesiologist gets her math wrong and fries your daughter's brain to the point that she's a vegetable in a nursing home for the rest of her life, you'll agree to just shrug, accept the cost of her care as settlement and move on with your life?
If a surgeon makes an error and accidentally removes the wrong foot from your diabetic mother, he can just buy her a wheelchair and everything will be hunkey-dorey?
If a client came to you and said that an EMT dropped him on the ground while transporting him with a broken ankle, thereby breaking the client's spine, you would advise him to just suck it up and move on with his life?
Now, I agree that the US needs tort reform, but it's too complex of an issue to jam into healthcare reform. Putting it in a healthcare reform bill would lower political leverage for later, broader tort reforms. There are some good ideas out there, like allowing product liability suits only if there's a pattern of poor product performance, or loser pays rules (English Rule). But these subjects are too big to be in a healthcare reform bill and receive the debate they deserve. Besides, they're usually a matter of state law rather than federal jurisdiction, except when constitutional issues are involved, such as civil rights cases.
Medical tort reform is a red herring in the healthcare debate. Currently only about 2% of civil suits lead to punitive damages at all and the median award is in the $38k to $50k range.
The Supreme Court has already limited punitive damages in BMW v. Gore and State Farm v. Campbell. The practical effect of those cases places reasonable limits on punitive damages, citing the 8th Amendment. (The court's ignoring of the right of a jury to set awards under the 7th Amendment is a good example of conservative judicial activism, btw.)
We already have a public option. It's called Medicare. It just needs a little tweak: lower the age of eligibility. Of course, what would be great is the elimination of any age for eligibility -- but even lowering it five years to age 60 would give a whole lot of Americans the option of...well, opting in. Once folks saw how well that went, they'd all start hollering to be let in, and before you know it the age would go down to 55, then 50. You get the idea. Why reinvent the wheel with a whole new system? Just tweak the one we've already got -- and it's SO EASY TO EXPLAIN to the Great Unwashed Masses, too!
Here is a kind of life after death you can be sure of...
http://www.whatwasdone.com/Age.php?&Age=-1
What is it about the far left and the far right. They both need something that they feel has been taken from them. The far right has chosen to demand it in the form of fundamentalist Christianity that leaves no room for compromise. But I don't understand the far left. Even when I agree with what they want (which is most of the time) I don't understand why you have to back yourself into a corner. I don't think there will be a health care bill now because the House has promised not to sign anything without a public option. The Senate can't get above about 45 votes for a public option. Case closed. The bad thing is that there are people who really need this and now they will be denied anything. I trust this President too. Governing is compromise. The far left seems to be screaming that they made a mistake with the election of President Obama. If you look at the polls here it has made a difference. George W. Bush literally almost ruined this country. Every thing he did was in secret and he put evangelicals in so many places that it will be years to get things back on track (like not teaching creationism and no science). Now we may never get our Democracy back. Independents don't understand that by voting for Republicans they are voting for the most radical of evangelicals. Teaching creationism in 50 states because the far left won't back down on a public option is pretty sad.
The fact is: people will die without health reform and if the progressives and liberals get hung up on requiring a public option and purity of philosophy then they better be ready to feel guilty for causing their deaths. I expect that sort of craziness from the far right. I'd hope that we keep an eye on the goal here and deal with the cost issue down the road.
Here is a kind of life after death you can be sure of...
http://www.whatwasdone.com/Age.php?&Age=-1
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