There's an fascinating debate going on in liberal circles about just how serious progressive Democratic congressmen are about voting down a health care bill that does not contain a public option. The threat to do so has been made frequently and forcefully, both by rank-and-file members and by the Majority Leader. But is it a credible one?
On the one hand, I'd have trouble being persuaded that progressives would actually prefer to maintain the status quo than to pass a bill without a public option. Now, I can certainly imagine a bill being so bad that it would be a net setback to progressives' goals -- say you had something without a public option, employer mandate, or a national exchange, but with a strict individual mandate and which only provided subsidies up to 200 percent of poverty -- and that this bill were funded through a fairly regressive means like a value added tax. That would be a pretty terrible piece of policy and progressives (and most everyone else not employed by an insurance company) would be right to oppose it. But if you took something more like the current House bill, stripped it of the public option (replacing it with co-ops, I guess) and maintained everything else, this bill would still accomplish several important progressive and pubic policy goals (and avoid a major near-term political disaster for the President). Progressives, rightly, would like such a bill less. But for them to prefer the status quo to such a solution doesn't seem credible. That's why a lot of people have trouble taking the progressives' threats at face value.
On the other hand, suppose that we reverse this argument: are there Blue Dogs who would prefer the status quo to a bill with a public option -- but would prefer a bill without a public option to the status quo? The qualifier is important. Three House committees have already approved bills containing public options. In each case, some Blue Dog votes were lost. But how many of these Blue Dogs would have voted to approve the bill if it didn't contain a public option? That is far less clear. Some of them might have, almost certainly. But progressives ought to be wary of Blue Dogs (and Republicans) who argue against a public option -- when they may simply be opposed to the entire concept of meaningful health care reform.
To recap:
A. If the only two choices were to pass an (otherwise decent) bill without a public option and to pass nothing at all, and everyone knew these were the only two choices, I believe the bill would almost certainly pass; progressives would cave.
B. On the other hand, if the only two choices were to pass a bill with a public option and nothing at all, and everyone knew these were the only two choices, I believe at least some Blue Dogs would cave and the bill would stand a decent shot at passing. This is far less clear, however; it is incumbent upon progressives to determine whether a bill with a public option really does stand a shot a passage. If not then their threat is idle at best, and self-destructive at worst.
The reason that I wrote earlier this week that a bill with a public option was "probably" dead is because I've long believed that leadership from the White House might make the difference between a bill with a public option just barely passing and it just barely failing to do so. When the White House appeared to backtrack on the public option over the weekend, it seemed either that they had already counted the votes and concluded that the public option could not pass, or that they thought the situation was too tenuous to warrant the gamble. But the situation could also be a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy: the public option might have passed, if only the White House had been willing to agitate for it -- but since they weren't willing to do so, it couldn't.
That notwithstanding, let's go back to the branch on the tree where both proposition (A) and proposition (B) are both true: a sufficient majority of the Congress prefers a bill without a public option to the status quo, but also a majority prefers a bill with a public option to the status quo. This is where things get interesting and where a lot of the game-theory stuff comes into play. And if this is the case, then I would not underestimate the progressives.
From progressives' point of view, they have been waiting many, many years for this moment -- for an ostensibly fairly liberal Democratic president, an ostensibly filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, an ostensibly lock-solid majority in the House, and a discredited opposition party. For a variety of reasons, the situation isn't as good for progressives as it appears on paper and never was. But that doesn't mean that expectations aren't very high. And yet they've seen little progress on climate change, on gay rights, on torture policy, on regulating the banks -- and now they're running into a stiff headwind on health care. It's 1994 all over again. To the progressive mind, it seems to be -- pardon my French -- the same old bullshit re-asserting itself. The moment is on the verge of being lost.
In poker, one of the situations when a player is most prone to go on tilt is when he had been on a winning streak and then begins to lose. It's one thing when you simply aren't getting cards all night and lose money slowly and steadily. When this happens, most poker players are pretty good at accepting that it just isn't their night and will continue to play reasonably well, if perhaps a little overcautiously. But if you had been winning -- if you had already "booked" the win in your mind -- and then you start losing, things can get really, really ugly. You'll make bold, rash, irrational gambles. Your big win will turn into a small win and, if you're not careful, into a big loss.
This is sort of the situation that progressives are in right now. They're not in a mood to compromise. They're in a mood to gamble. This may well be irrational. It may well prove to be self-destructive. But the one thing you never, never want to do with someone who is on tilt is to try to bluff them off their hand.
8.21.2009
Are Progressives on Tilt?
by Nate Silver @ 2:28 PM...see also health care, house democrats, poker
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309 comments
Nate, what do you think about the opinion of Matt Taibbi when he talks about the passage of the bill being dependent of Senator Baucus and that even if something does get passed, it'll probly end up being worse than what's going on right now. He says it'd be better for the whole thing to fail and to start over again on Health Care Reform next year. Here's a link to some clips and the article
http://taibbi.rssoundingboard.com/health-care-reform-sick-and-wrong#
We have a Democratic President, 257 democrats in the House, and 60 democrats in the Senate. And they were all elected for a reason. Get stuff done.
If they can't then they are out.
But it won't be the Republicans that benefit.
No one has forgotten that they were fired as well.
As the poll numbers for the dems drop, the horrible numbers for the repulicans are not rising either.
Time for a third or fourth party?
That could be in our future if the dems don't get their act together.
Here's another one to ponder:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26335.html
Hoyer and Pelosi on different pages regarding the public option.
What a mess.
Could this be the beginnings of a Democratic Party civil war?
Maybe the illusions to Obama being a New Lincoln are truly coming to fruition??
Moderate 'fly over' Democrats vs. Bi-coastal liberals?
Does anyone have any kettle corn??? Nah, I'm in the mood for some popcorn...
This post reminds me, Nate. What about our one-on-one poker showdown? Methinks you would be on tilt the entire time and completely intimidated by my savvy play.
Of course Steny's opposed to Pelosi's position. He wants her job.
Nate, I assume you meant to refer to Nancy Pelosi as House Speaker in your second sentence?
What I've always admired about Republicans is their tenacious effectiveness.
They could have a +1 vote advantage in the House and Tom Delay could always somehow cobble together winning coalitions.
Reid and Pelosi could have ceiling to floor domination of all congressional seats by registered Democrats of good standing and still find a way to screw up.
Democrats are good at:
1) talking
2) running for office
3) creating shows for the Bravo network
4) being in school
5) fantasizing about utopian possibilities that have no mooring in reality
Democrats are not good at:
1) fighting wars
2) legislating and getting stuff done
3) doing hard-scrabble farm and field work
"If the only two choices were to pass an (otherwise decent) bill without a public option"
I think most progressives' point is there is no such animal. They (and I) believe there is no decent bill without cost containment, and there is no cost containment without a public option.
So you have presented a false choice here.
You might have been right if the GOP hadn't pulled their town-hall attacks. Two weeks ago, I (as mildly progressive) might have understood if the public lost to compromise. Now, a public option loss tells me "the Democrats back down to a GOP right-wing shouting match even in the majority. They are useless to progressives everywhere. Obama is useless in the face of the shouting." The progressive base are much more fired up then they were and the GOP has made the public option into their rallying point.
Blue Dogs have to make a choice, too: They can either support or sabotage the reform and they can run with it or against it. To run against it would be tougher I guess, since they'd have to take a firm stand against Nancy Pelosi, parts of the White House and against the whole idea of health care reform (because there is no detailed alternative they could highlight). And after all, it's the Blue Dogs who are most vulnerable - the liberals are safe in their blue districts.
I had my doubts about the whole project, and especially the public option, but I'd say that it must just as well be the Blue Dogs that are on tilt.
*might, not must
I think the interesting thing, especially in the House, is the different values placed on the Public Option by some members.
I would imagine that some of this comes down to the areas the Representatives are from. From poorer areas, with perhaps larger populations of the area without health insurance, the Public Option is important. Perhaps from slightly wealthier areas, but where insurance companies have been scr*w*ng over people, regulation is the most important thing.
But I think it has been worth the Progressive Caucus raising the stakes on the public option. I think there has been a real fear that the public option was becoming a less crucial part of the bill for many. And there has been a sense in which the actions of the minority at Town Halls had made the party more cautious. Its been worth the left showing that it has some skin in the game in order to turn back the tide somewhat.
To the folks saying let's start over next year: nobody on the hill is touching this anew during a new president's first midterm.
To the folks saying throw everyone out for a new party: on what planet do you spend most of your time?
To the guy who said Democrats are not good at fighting wars: We beat Hitler.
And to Nate: have you completely removed the possibility that 77% support the public option and advertising against industry shills on the hill are on the rise i.e. there is an actually mobilizing progressive response? The pessimist in me says it won't be enough, but there does seem to be a genuine front at least for the time being that will say a non-public option bill is synonymous with a giveaway to the industry.
Steve, above, makes my main point more succinctly, but I'm still going to post this:
Progressives have always taken everything president Obama says seriously, even when they are skeptical. So when he says, day in and day out, that one of his core principles is that any bill must have measures that foster competition in the insurance industry and help control costs and bend the curve down, we believe him. We also believe him when he says that he is confident that a public option is the best way to do that. I personally believe him when he says that he can imagine other possible means being well-constructed enough to achieve those goals. Here he is usually acknowledging that some politicians favor an as-yet entirely unspecified co-op alternative.
The problem right now is that ALL of us progressives can see that there's absolutely no hope for any co-op proposal that will actually achieve the goals of fostering competition and reducing costs. It's pie in the sky; it will never happen.
So when you talk about passing a bill without a public option, or one with a co-op plan meant to replace a public option, it's crystal clear to all progressives that neither of those outcomes will satisfy president Obama's principle. And yet, we have a great fear that he will, in the end, compromise that principle, in order to achieve a "victory." And yes, we will then have been "punked."
Yo, the conservatrolls are out early on this one.
Walker said...
Could this be the beginnings of a Democratic Party civil war?
NO. Believe it or not, progressives stil outnumber right-wingers in the Democratic Party by a siginificant margin, and they've finally found their voice and are stepping up. Fact is, as much as the Dems have been faffing about in recent months on healthcare, resulting in both Obama and Dems taking a 10 point hit in the polls, they're still trusted over wingnuts GOPosaurs on almost very single issue. And if SurveyUSA shows 77% of Americans want the choice of a public and private option, you give it to them or you get voted out. It's as simple as that.
Apparently Pelosi and the progressive caucus realise this. Now it's time for the White House, particularly those two morons Emanuel and Messina, to pop out of their little bubble.
Suppose the Democrats split the bill into a reconciliation-friendly public option and an unreconcilable "other stuff" bill. The public option bill should then become law. Only five Democratic senators have committed to voting against it.
The "other stuff" bill will face filibuster by furious Republicans, and the moderates will sustain it. The only way for Democrats to pass that then becomes wheeling Byrd and Kennedy in, the latter possibly literally on his deathbed. Even then, if just one Democrat caves - or Lieberman, who is not even a Democrat - the second bill dies.
Thus we end up with ONLY the reconciliation-friendly parts of the original bill. At a guess, that would be the public option, Medicaid expansion, and *maybe* subsidies for the lower middle class. We would not have the individual mandate, the employer mandate, community rating, the health exchanges, the comprehensive reviews, or the Medicare reforms (which iirc the Byrd rule does not permit).
Is such a bill better than the original bill *without* the public option? I doubt it.
Without the individual mandate, only the uninsured with chronic conditions would sign up for the public option, making it a huge financial drain, a politically vulnerable "welfare program" with Republicans gunning for it. Without community rating and the ban on rescissions, people would continue to be screwed over by their insurance companies.
Whoa, I was thinking of the tilt analogy just the other day! Yeah, lately, progressives seem ready to just throw it all away if they can't have it all.
Nate, to my mind if the progressives are on tilt, it's due in part to the republicans have (playing with a short stack beginning in January) going all-in on every single hand. At the same time progressives have been too quick to fold when they've been raised. At some point progressives actually need to stay in play through the river and make the GOP show their cards.
From a tactical point of view, this is why it might make some sense to at least discuss splitting the bill into two bills: one dealing with consumer protections and another dealing with a public option. Republicans have always said that they want the consumer protections but won't vote for a public option. Meanwhile 77% of people support a public option.
I seriously doubt that very many Republicans (some Blue Dogs might) would ultimately vote for a consumer protection-only bill so as not to hand President Obama any victory and virtually none will vote for a public option despite it's popular appeal (again, I think at least a couple of Blue Dogs could be arm-twisted into voting for a Public Option). I thing this would put them at serious risk of being caught playing politics and would seriously cut into their chips. Just a thought... but it would be an interesting play.
Am i right in assuming that the reason a public option is so important is because it would force private insurers to compete with it by abandoning the fee-for-service model of compensation?
Like, if the public plan were paying doctors and hospitals less for services, and thus able to charge their clients less in premiums, and since denying coverage will no longer be an option for anyone, then the private insurers will be forced to find other ways to reduce the amount of expensive procedures they have to pay for.
Namely this means adopting a Mayo-clinic type incentive structure, where doctors are paid based on how healthy their patients are instead of on how much services they provide. This "holistic" or "preventive" model is a proven way of reducing costs and is the ultimate goal of introducing a public plan right?
Here's How To Apply Pressure.
Seriously. I wrote my congressman, a Democrat, and my Senators, both Republicans, that if they stand in the way of the Public Option I would donate $50 to the campaign of anybody that ran against them in the primary, and even if they won that, I would withhold my vote in the next general, that for me, the Public Option was the litmus test for whether they were corporate shills or not.
Please do the same.
It is better to LOSE the public option than get an "otherwise good" bill; there is no such thing! Anything without a public option will be a corporate giveaway, anything that the insurance companies and pharmaceuticals and profit hospitals LIKE is something that just makes them more money, at OUR expense.
If we get NOTHING, that will make the pain worse and that will create political pressure so we get what we want. Do not compromise on this point. Do not believe political promises that will not come true. A public option is guaranteed to provide competition and and that is why it is being killed, everything else the Republicans and corporate shills suggest in its place is guaranteed to be a sham.
Email Your Congressman.
Threaten to support any candidate that opposes them in their next primary and promise that even if they win that, they won't get your vote. I freely admit I could not bring myself to vote for a Republican, but I can sure stay home when I know the Democrat is a corrupt pig feeding at the trough of corporate America.
At this point, I'd rather let him lose, then maybe in two years we can replace the Republican with a real progressive that answers to people instead of CEOs and Lobbyists.
It is immoral and corrupt for anybody to have the size of their pay package depend on how many people they can let suffer and die by denying them coverage.
Use whatever of these words you want, or your own, but Email Your Congressman.
I'll tell ya, it shows you just how bad the WH and Dems, mainly Blue Dogs, have been on what it afterall one of the party's big tentpole issues, when the economy is stabalising and pulling out of the Bush-Cheney Republican created near depression/severe recession, and yet they've took a hit in the polls.
Honestly, if someone was to tell progressives and wingnuts five months ago that the the dip in Obama/Dem approval and favorability was attributed to uncertainty over healthcare reform, and not the recession deepening, I don't think ANYONE here would believe it for a second.
Not that Republicans are any better off. They remain almost as popular as anal acne, the most popular figure in the party is unelectable with her favorables in the toilet, and 22% of the public trust them on healthcare.
And Tom Ridge says Bush-Cheney bumped the TERROR ALERT to scare the American people on the eve of the 2004 election.
What I would really like to know is: What leverage is available to the President and the Democratic leadership? Specifically:
Can Baucus be removed as chair without a resolution that the entire senate votes on?
How many Blue dogs could reasonably expect to transform themselves into Republicans (as their founder did) if they political climate seems to favor Republicans.
Ditto for the senate. Are Max Baucus, Kent Conrad, Evan Bayh and Ben Nelson likely to switch sides? They've been Democrats for a long time and during some pretty lean years but could they switch and would they?
I think a lot of anger on the left that is directed at Obama is due to fact the people feel he could make(or perhaps could have made) this happen if only he would/would have twisted arms. I don't think this is true but I really don't know.
@walker:
That list says a lot about your world view. Here's mine...
Republicans are good at:
1) Internal unity and party discipline
2) Being manipulated by big business if they are poor or middle-class
3) Receiving single-payer health-care and claiming it isn't a government-run program, like Medicare or Medicaid
4) Intimidation tactics, like packing weapons at political rallies
5) Winning elections by casting themselves as the defenders of so- called "real" (read: white) America
6) Filibusters
Republicans are bad at:
1) Tolerance of others
2) Ethnic diversity
3) Discerning the difference between wars of choice and wars of self-defense (see also: Iraq)
4) Reading birth certificates
5) Understanding that end-of-life counseling doesn't mean pulling the plug on Grandma. (That job is for the insurance companies.)
6) Winning elections outside the South, Wyoming and Utah
1) Internal unity and party discipline
Isn't that generally a good thing?! What's the point of having a "party" if it's going to be as disheveled as the Democrats currently are?
2) Being manipulated by big business if they are poor or middle-class
Some people aren't a big fan of kowtowing to an uber-liberal social and economic agenda just because the Democrats want to throw a little more "empathy" and handouts their way.
3) Receiving single-payer health-care and claiming it isn't a government-run program, like Medicare or Medicaid
4) Intimidation tactics, like packing weapons at political rallies
Castigate an entire party based on anecdotay evidence much? Are you even sure any/all of the people you saw/heard that were mis-informed on health care or were toting guns were even Republicans?
5) Winning elections by casting themselves as the defenders of so- called "real" (read: white) America
I disagree, but working off that premise, is it any different or less racist that Democrats win elections by scare-mongering blacks and Hispanics about how the "evil white Republicans" are going to take everything away from them and/or throw them out of the country.
6) Filibusters
Dear Lord, I shouldn't have to say anything, but you oughtta know Democrats have made equal use of this legislative tactic.
Spare me.
Let’s See Who Else Owes Howard Dean an Apology Today
http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/21/lets-see-who-else-owes-howard-dean-an-apology-today/
"We don't do politics in the Department of Homeland Security. Our job is to identify the threat."
-Tom Ridge, Secretary of Homeland Security
Here's a couple of belters...
"Howard Dean came out, and said, oh, the terror alert's a phony thing, like he knows anything. Like where did you get your intelligence, Howard, Ben & Jerry? Like Dean knows anything. What an irresponsible jerk."
-Bill O'Reilly, FOX host
"I don't think anybody who has any fairness or is in their right mind would think the president or the secretary of homeland security would raise an alert level and scare people for political reasons...That's outrageous."
-Joe Lieberman, Blue Dog Democrat
Who is going to lose their seats in Congress if the Democrats lose a bunch of seats?
The Progressive Caucus is less vulnerable than the Blue Dogs.
If Democrats believe passing no bill will lose seats, the Progressive Caucus does have some leverage over the Blue Dogs.
Is there any evidence that their are *voters* who will be angry at the Dems for passing a bill with a public option who would have been OK with a bill w/o a public option?
The Blue Dogs are kinda screwed if nothing passes. Progressives will likely punish them and a whole bunch of people will conclude there's no point to electing Democrats b/c they don't get stuff done.
So, the Blue Dogs get to choose between taking the consequences of passing a bill with a public option and passing one without a public option.
Some Blue Dogs will conclude the money from insurance companies is worth more to them than support from progressives. But some will conclude having progressives with them is more important than the insurance company money.
Unless the Obama administration is secretly giving up on the public option, I expect it to pass.
IMO, it's the politically astute move for Blue Dogs.
BTW, I also think it's smart for Democrats to appear undecided as long as possible to squeeze contributions out of the insurers.
I swear if any Democrat joins in a filibuster, or even votes against cloture, then I just hope they are ready for a primary challenge. I think this is where the accounting of 60 votes in the Senate gets a bit imprecise. Just because you don't want to vote for a public option, doesn't mean you want to support a filibuster against it.
I definitely think that any Democrat with any kind of national aspirations will have to vote for a public option in the end, or at least make absolutely sure they have played no part in killing it. The netroots community have long old memories!
i just want to know what else i can dop.
i have emailed, called, said i would not vote for any candidate who didnt support the public option.
do i have to yell at town halls? is that what constitutes democracy in america?
i think they actually dont care about the nuts in town halls either. all they care about the creeps in the insurance companies who know all about death panels
we arent a democracy, we are a capitalistic hoard
Nate -
I have a little trouble with your poker analogy. You talk as if the mythical Progressive Poker play has been winning hand after hand. This player should be able to look down and see a pile of chips in front of him/her. But instead the Progressive looks down at his chips and sees pretty few. In fact I would argue that the Progressive Player has had few wins and has been on a losing streak for way too long!
I can't speak for all Progressives but it seems that we've just had a chance to start changing the direction of the country - to actually having a seat at the table. In the seven months since President Obama took office we have had one significant victory, the Stimulus Bill.
As you pointed out a lot of cherished progressive causes have lagged. Up until recently I've been willing to keep calm with the hope that those things time will come after meaningful Health Care Reform took place.
But immediately when the subject came up the Progressive Ideas for Single Payer and Government Run Health Care were off the table. To keep using your metaphor it's as if the dealer took one of our cards and gave it to the opposing player. But Progressives who genuinely are willing to accept compromise shrugged and said sure we can deal with a Public Option - that's a nice way that the country can get itself used to meaningful reform and we can build on that. But now the Public Option is off the table. That metaphorical dealer just reached over and took 2 more cards out of our hand and gave it to the other player. Then the talks go to Co-Ops that we know won't do anything towards real reform and which the other side says it won't accept anyway.
So there you are at the table, you intially started with a winning hand but the dealer has taken most of your cards away and given to the other player. So Nate would you continue to play this game?
Progressives compromised from the very start on this subject but the other side has continued to demand more and more like they are still in power. The problem is that now the Public Option is no good, the worthless Co-Op is no good, in fact nothing about the bill is any good for the Republicans to vote for. Not only that but according to the Republicans we have to have 80 votes for it to pass, a super super majority.
You were right in one aspect Nate, it is the same old shit as 94. This one progressive is tired of acting like we don't have power. We should be the ones making demands of the Republicans, not the other way around and not on this what is supposed to be our signature strenght. In any negotiation the person with the strongest hand does not go in making concessions and giving the person with the weaker hand control over the negotiations. This would never happen in the business world and it is madness that it is happening her.
I would like to urge every progressivce Senator and Representative to vote "No" on any Health Care Bill that doesn't have at least the Public Option. The Democrats need to grow some spine. Call the GOP bluf and let them fillibuster by the rules and then let there be a vote by the rules of a simple majority wins. Let the Blue Dog Democrats do some soul searching and decide which party and core beliefs that they really belong to. Let it be on their heads.
It is quite simple really. Tell the blue dogs that if they dont support the public option, they dont get a penny from the DCCC, DNC, or any other organization in 2010.
MOB:
Pledge to donate money to any primary challenger and pledge to sit out the election if they prove themselves to be corrupt corporate shills by letting the public option die.
The problem is that Democrats know we progressives will not actually switch to Republicans; after all, the Republicans are proudly marching to defeat the bill. The Democrats know we won't switch, and any threat to switch is an empty threat.
We have to face that, and it means our leverage is on them personally. If my congressman is complicit in letting the public option die, I will donate to any Democratic primary challenger that steps up and do what I can to support the challenger. And then if my congressman wins the primary anyway: I will not vote for him, and I have told them that: I'd rather suffer a Republican for a term and try again with some OTHER Democrat in two years; because the Democrat I don't know is better than the Democrat I Do know is in the pocket of the corporations.
This is something they can find plausible and understand; money running against them.
juvanya said...
It is quite simple really. Tell the blue dogs that if they don't support the public option, they don't get a penny from the DCCC, DNC, or any other organization in 2010.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's part of the problem, most of the Blue Dogs are so far up the health care industries butt re: campaign "bribe" contributions, it just doesn't matter.
Baucus was just re-elected and he's loaded w/special interest $, he doesn't need DCCC, DNC, etc. money, especially since his state is small and has a population of 13, ok 960k.
Part of the problem is representative democracy is askew in America when Alaska, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming etc. have the same representation in the Senate as NY and CA ie congress should have much more power than the senate.
@mule rider:
Republicans are better at party discipline because most of the moderates have been pushed out. The party is now home to loonies and ex-segregationists (read: Shelby, Sessions, Lott(retired), Thurmond and Helms, (deceased).)
America's ethnic minorities are not attracted to a party that continually blames them for America's problems. The GOP stance on immigration turns off Hispanics because the leaders of the debate can't hide their fear of changing demographics. And African-Americans turn away because they know than the "conservative conversation" will NEVER include or accept them in large numbers.
Wanna know one big reason why you guys lost in Virginia to Webb in 2006 and to Obama in 2008? Ninety percent of the Muslim-American vote went to Democrats. They are sick of being cast as America's newest non-white internal and external enemy.
In case you didn't get it, GOP, your future lies in a new, non-racial conservative philosophy, one that DOES NOT, among other things:
1) blame dark-skinned people for America's problems
2) lie to and scare economically-insecure white people over 45 about where their health-care really comes from
3) confuse free-market values with kleptocratic crony capitalism that presently dominates Wall Street and certain US Senators
4) worship small-state trailer-trash ex-governors just because they happen to look good on TV
And that DOES, among other things:
1) get back to small-government fiscal conservative values
2) refrain from using anti-terrorist fear in order to go after countries the government doesn't happen to like
3) actually stand up for small business instead of monstrous, trans-national corporations
4) respect a Constitution that is more than just the Second and Tenth
Amendment
One final note: You were right about those pistol-packers patrolling the perimeters of the town halls in August: they weren't all Republicans. Some of them already left the party because they felt the GOP wasn't conservative enough.
Carl Nyberg, I agree with you the Blue Dog Democrats have the most to lose!
By definition a Blue Dog Democrat is a Democrat that represents a Red or Purple State. Let's say a Blue Dog Democrat votes No on a Bill with the Public Option and Health Care Reform fails. Well if that happens you can be sure that the Democrats will lose a great many of their seats in 2010. That means if you represent a Red/Purple State/District your chances of being ousted by a Republican challenger has become great, especially if there is any kind of national wave against the Democrats.
If on the other hand they vote for a HCR Bill with the public option soon [or at least in the Senate vote for cloture and in the house at least enough Blue Dogs vote Yes to ensure the Bill passes] then by the time of the election only the most rabid of the birthers/deathers and dining room tables will still care. To the majority of Americans once they realize that after the Bill passes and the world doesn't come to an end and that the Government hasn't hauled Grandma off to a Death Camp a lot of the hysteria will die down. In fact the sooner this Bill is passed the sooner Americans will become used to it and Blue Dog Democrats can run with a campaign of "My opponent wants to take away your Health Care!"
True that, dre7861....
The Blue Dogs are going to get swept away next time if they don't shape up.
NATE, You Are Wrong About Us.
At least me. I am progressive as the day is long, but I would rather LOSE than take another tiny step. It isn't half a loaf, the damn pols have been playing this damn game twenty times and the corporations always win. It is a half a loaf to the tenth power, a thousandth of a loaf, a crust of one slice. It is useless.
It is time for a total RESET button, shove these so-called "Democrats" out the damn door. We should just LOSE in 2010 and show them that if we don't get what we WANT we will no longer be satisfied with a hundredth of a loaf. Tax the rich, screw the corporations and take back the money they have stolen from us. The Republicans are openly in bed with the corporations, while the Democrats are in it with corporations on the down low; either way the corporations win. RESET the game, it is better to lose than to let this progression continue.
If half a loaf is better than none, is a quarter loaf better than none? How about a tenth of a loaf? How about a half a slice? How far do you go before enough is enough?
No more compromise. RESET.
"To the guy who said Democrats are not good at fighting wars: We beat Hitler."
-----------------------------------------
Excuse me, but I think perhaps you mean you helped beat Hitler. There were Canadians and Brits involved from the beginning - you came along later in the game to help finish it. And the Brits and Canada could not have done it without you.
Patrick said...
Am i right in assuming that the reason a public option is so important is because it would force private insurers to compete with it by abandoning the fee-for-service model of compensation?
Like, if the public plan were paying doctors and hospitals less for services, and thus able to charge their clients less in premiums, and since denying coverage will no longer be an option for anyone, then the private insurers will be forced to find other ways to reduce the amount of expensive procedures they have to pay for.
Namely this means adopting a Mayo-clinic type incentive structure, where doctors are paid based on how healthy their patients are instead of on how much services they provide. This "holistic" or "preventive" model is a proven way of reducing costs and is the ultimate goal of introducing a public plan right?
---
No Patrick, a Public Plan would not pay Doctors and hospitals less for their services. The reason that a Public Plan can charge less for premiums is because it is a Not-For-Profit entity. Whereas with For-Profit Insurance companies inflate premiums so their CEOs can make over $100,000 an hour! Just think about that! Your average American would have to work nearly two years or more just to make what this man makes in one hour! And if you think he's worth that kind of money then you need to ask yourself do you think Health Care as run by Big Profit-making Insurance Companies are really doing that great of a job insuring Americans and keeping us healthy.
@ mule rider:
I have to say this about the recent use of the filibuster. By all accounts, its abuse has gone into overdrive. Look no farther than the graph in the wiki entry. Since the GOP lost the US Senate in 2006, they have resorted to that method to stop Dem-sponsored legislation. And while it's true that both parties have used the filibuster in the past to defend their interests, the period after January 2007 is quite telling. The use of the filibuster is at an all-time historical high. Does somebody not want to play well with others?
And it gets worse: Sen. Orrin Hatch , R-Utah, has suggested a new rule to raise the threshold to stop debate at 70-80 votes. What law would pass in such an environment? Nothing, of course, and that's precisely the point.
Who is being obstructionist now?
BlueRevolution said...
@ mule rider:
I have to say this about the recent use of the filibuster. By all accounts, its abuse has gone into overdrive. Look no farther than the graph in the wiki entry. Since the GOP lost the US Senate in 2006, they have resorted to that method to stop Dem-sponsored legislation. And while it's true that both parties have used the filibuster in the past to defend their interests, the period after January 2007 is quite telling. The use of the filibuster is at an all-time historical high. Does somebody not want to play well with others?
And it gets worse: Sen. Orrin Hatch , R-Utah, has suggested a new rule to raise the threshold to stop debate at 70-80 votes. What law would pass in such an environment? Nothing, of course, and that's precisely the point.
Who is being obstructionist now?
--
Thank you for pointing this out! The Republicans are good at one thing and that's moving the goalposts! I get the feeling that if in the next election there was some divine miracle and the Democrats had 80 seats in the Seante, Hatch and Greasy Grassley would start demanding that all bills had to pass with 110 votes!
Of course the Democrats would nod their heads like the good passive slaves they are and buy into it.
[And yes I know that the Seante only has a 100 votes.]
Die with your boots on.
Your successors will remember it with pride.
They'll win the next time.
Or you can run and be scrubbed from the memories of all.
In which case, there won't be a next time.
Enough of the sophistry. If the bill sucks, if its origins are in mendacity, kill the damn thing and get ready for next year. Win the midterms. Another year of insurer abuses and the people will be ready.
Lets assess this whole Democrats are bad at fighting wars this just a tad closer, as a friday evening diversion.
Ok, lets assume Muley means actually fighting. John Kerry, Bob Kerrey, Harry Truman, Jack Kennedy, amongst many others served with dstinction.
Maybe he meant as a General, Democrats are not good. I think George C Marshall may not agree with Muley there, for a start.
Maybe he is specifically talking about being Commander-in-Chief? Wilson and FDR might disagree on this point, and who were the US Presidents at the time of American cessation in Korea and Vietnam? Eisenhower and Nixon/Ford depending on how you define things. (Thats not a criticism of Ike, Nixon or Ford btw, just making a point.)
Of course it is somewhat typical of a Republican to politicize military matters. So I won't point out George W Bush's queationable military service, for instance.
One wonders if Obama WANTED the liberals to "go tilt". Wouldn't surprise me one bit.
markymark said...
Lets assess this whole Democrats are bad at fighting wars this just a tad closer, as a friday evening diversion.
Ok, lets assume Muley means actually fighting. John Kerry, Bob Kerrey, Harry Truman, Jack Kennedy, amongst many others served with dstinction.
Maybe he meant as a General, Democrats are not good. I think George C Marshall may not agree with Muley there, for a start.
Maybe he is specifically talking about being Commander-in-Chief? Wilson and FDR might disagree on this point, and who were the US Presidents at the time of American cessation in Korea and Vietnam? Eisenhower and Nixon/Ford depending on how you define things. (Thats not a criticism of Ike, Nixon or Ford btw, just making a point.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
but, but, but, the Rep trolls will point out the Dem congress cut off funding for the Vietnam War. ie the will of the people!
but, but, but, I will point out Nixon had a "secret" plan to end the Vietnam that remains secret to this day ie 20,000 u.s. soldiers and 300,000 Vietnamese died under Nixon's watch as Kissinger got the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973, the biggest farce in the history of mankind.
Goldwater supposedly said: If I was president during the Vietnam War, I would have dropped sooo many bombs on N. Vietnam they wouldn't have been able to grow rice for 1,000 years.
Could never confirm the quote lol but it sounds like something Barry would say.
p.s. And don't get me going on Kissinger winning the Nobel Peace Prize !@#$%^&*
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good point. I FINALLY got around to emailing my DEM rep & both FL Senators today to put them all on notice that health care reform will be THE litmus test for their legacies as well as future re-election.
Now with Martinez, the best I could say was PLEASE do the right thing for your legacy & all Floridians [since he is retiring]
Nelson & Rep Kosmas - warned that they better get behind progressive legislation including a workable public option + transportability, etc. or they will not only lose my support but will be actively opposed in future re-election bids.
I advised them to go 'all in' behind substantive reform that benefits all citizens or suffer the consequences...
yup, I guess I am on tilt now since previously I just assumed the DEMs would do the right thing since it was a pillar of the 2008 elections that we demand CHANGE we can believe in...
I am goin' all in on this one - my question is where is the pay-back for all the political ass-kissing that BHO did with the evangelicals [including Warren] who should now be pushing HARD for christian values = health care for all ???
chirp, chirp...
The big worry is California -- a perpetual stalemate where nothing can get done. This will be acceptable to the right wing, even if they remain in a minority position for a long time. This explains the Right's astounding willingness to debauch public discourse.
Because of the way the Senate works, they can achieve pretty easily.
Btw: Stalin beat Hitler, although we did beat Japan.
Lets assess this whole Democrats are bad at fighting wars this just a tad closer, as a friday evening diversion.
Ok, lets assume Muley means actually fighting. John Kerry, Bob Kerrey, Harry Truman, Jack Kennedy, amongst many others served with dstinction.
@markymark,
Go back and re-read the thread. I didn't make the comment about the Democrats being bad at fighting wars. Walker did. I was merely responding to Blue Revolution's sarcastic list of the things Republicans are "good" at, but that discussion didn't talk about war.
@Blue Revolution,
You keep painting Republicans as a party that demonizes and blames all "dark-skinned" people for all of the problems in this country. That's not true, but working off that premise (that being your hyperbolic overdrive and use of straw man arguments), what about the Democrats - namely liberals - blaming all of the world's problems on white people and constantly playing the apologist's role?
It's no more absurd than what you suggest.
Being opposed to people illegally entering the country and having a potent plan to handle the ones that do is not a ideological vice. Sorry if that little bit of news makes your head explode, Blue.
Nate: I think you are badly misunderstanding the extent to which progressives on this issue are just plain angry about the possibility of the public option being dropped. You are attempting to address people in a rational fashion on this issue. This is a mistake, as it assumes a rational debate about issues. If the public option goes away then this is no longer a debate about issues, it is a debate about internal democratic party politics and issues become secondary.
The Democrats have for several years now lead progressives along on a series of promises of the things they could do if they controlled Washington. One of these promises-- for some people, the primary one-- has been a promise of health care reform, and this time for real. This health care reform was promised in the form of a specific plan which has been public knowledge for years, part of every major Democratic presidential candidate's platform. This plan is the carrot the democrats have dangled to convince progressives to vote for them, to donate to them, to go out and canvass for them, etc. Part of that plan, everywhere it has been suggested, has been the public insurer. For many progressives-- basically anyone who likes the idea of "single payer", anyone whose view on America's health care can be summarized as "the insurance companies are the problem"-- the public option element is by itself the carrot, the thing that justifies supporting the plan and therefore supporting the Democrats as a party. Go back in time to 2007 and remove the public option from that plan, and many of the people and even some institutions working to make sure the Democrats to win those last two elections would not have been there or at least would not have been as interested. Remove the public option after the last two years, after people have been working and donating and doing what they can, and people will feel betrayed-- that they worked for something for two years only to have a willing bait-and-switch performed just as the Democrats were about to pay them for services rendered. And at that point anger takes over. Rationality, or generalized political goals like percentage national insurance coverage, won't matter anymore. What will matter to these people is that the Democrats betrayed them, and that betrayal will be personal.
You're trying to make the point that if progressives deep-six the bill because they didn't get their priority in, that they will be hurting themselves in the long term as democrats. What you're missing is that at that point they are no longer democrats. Delivery on the public option is for certain parts of the left a precondition for remaining part of the democratic coalition. Without it they'll become naderites, or tea partiers maybe. And if they're no longer democrats, then why would they care if the Democratic Party can achieve its political goals?
And the GOP - well, conservatives at least - doesn't have any more contempt for black people than Bill Cosby and have basically the same message. You're embraced fully as brothers and sisters and fellow American citizens in this country, but those of you who insist on being on the other side of the law, pissing on an education, and refusing to make any inroads to creating a better life for yourself will not be pacified with more handouts and apologies for all of the "evil white crimes" of the past, present, and future but instead will be told to buck up and get an education/job and stay off the streets or risk incarceration....which is the same way conservatives feel towards every ethnic group, including fellow Caucasians.
This Racism! Racism! Racism! meme is out of control and very tiresome, and I find it odd that it's white liberals who seem to be playing that card with much more frequency than minorities ever have. Which makes conservatives' contempt for you white liberals far greater than any of the true racists have ever felt towards someone of a different skin color.
Speaking for myself, someone so ideologically bitter like yourself gets me exponentially more fired up than anything even remotely related to skin color.
steve said:
"They (and I) believe there is no decent bill without cost containment, and there is no cost containment without a public option."
Can someone here seriously explain how the big, federal government option will contain costs? I work for the government, I think there are certain roles that the government should play and I'm not like all the conservatives who only denegrate the government and government workers. With that said, however, I just don't see the thinking here.
Although I am against a single-payer system for other reasons, I can see that type of system containing costs (I think it would create other problems, but I can see how a government monopoly can control costs). But, if we take the Administration and the Dems in Congress at their word, they are not seeking a single-payer system, but offer the government option up as "competition" to the private sector. Again, can someone please give me an example where a government entity fairly competed with a private company to provide goods or a service and the government entity was more efficient? And please don't offer up a purely private service, like the military or police, nor Medicare, which is rigged to take control of health care delivery to those reaching age 65 (If you would like, I will explain why it is rigged, but I will do it in another post). Please, provide one example of a good or service that has been offered for a long period in the private sector and then a government program was set up to compete with that service and did it effeciently and effectively. It doesn't even have to be in the U.S.
I come at this from first hand knowledge. Again, I work in the government and have to create programs to get certain things done. I have created programs where I did it in-house (i.e., a government option), not because I wanted it cheaper, but because I wanted to direct control of the quality of the service. I was able to convince the "powers-that-be" that it was worth the cost. However, if the private sector already provides a quality service that I want, it is always able to provide the service at a lower cost than creating a government program, assuming that all the costs are spelled out and accounted for. This is because there are just too many beureucratic rules (usually put in place for a good reason, but not always) that the government requires, especially purchasing and bidding requirements.
My feeling is those who are looking at the government option to compete with the private sector are simply not accounting for all the costs that will go into paying for health care costs, either that, or they are lying about the government option fairly competing with the private sector and what they really are proposing is a single-payer, monopoly system.
My apologies Muley!
That should be "bureaucratic" in my last post. Geez, you would think a bureaucrat would be able to spell the word correctly, but it was a long day.
Why are the Dems being shy on this? You pay the most per capita for healthcare and get relatively shocking results because of the costs. Simple equation.
Without the public option to hold down costs, the bill is nothing but a huge giveaway to the insurance industry which will send millions more people into bankruptcy & foreclosure.
I am fine with no public option, PROVIDED there is no individual mandate!
Republicans might argue that they are better at 'fighting wars', but their members, particularly the Baby Boomers, were surprisingly absent when their turn came around to actually GO to war.
Among the Gen-Xers, those born 1965-80, the record is actually better. One example is Congressman Duncan Hunter, R-CA(52nd District), served in Iraq and Afghanistan as a Marine and followed his father to represent parts of San Diego county in Congress.
No, I don't agree with most of his political positions. But he at least walked the walk.
Among the footsoldiers of the Nixon and Reagan Revolutions, few GOP boomers could be found who actually served in Vietnam. Most, like Dick Cheney, received some kind of a deferment for the entire period of July 1965-March 1973. Others, like Bush Jr. and Dan Quayle, went to the National Guard at a time when Guard units were seldom sent overseas to fight(the reverse is largely true today). Mitt Romney's five sons, who in 2008 were all of fighting age, explained their absence from military service in saying that their service to America was more effective as civilians. Slick answer, guys, smooth as glass, but too clever by half. We get it, though.
The kind of people who actually see combat, however conservative they may be, are not as likely to send troops to battle without just cause. It's still true, although for the older Boomers it is becoming a moot point as more of them age out of Presidential consideration. It should be interesting, as time goes on, when seen in that light, what viable GOP Presidential candidates come out to run.
FWIW, I am not convinced that that many Republicans are truly racist. Again, I think it comes back to the idea that really the GOP has no concept of what it is to be an average African American in the USA today.
I think the basic GOP message is aimed at Americans who are doing ok. I think the GOP shows know real feeling for the many many Americans who struggle everyday, who have to live with the day to day threat of unemployment. I don't think the GOP has much understanding of what it means to live without health insurance in the US today.
I think the GOP has no concept about just how really hard, and so really difficult it is, to 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps', and that some people have nowhere else to turn but the government.
Its an ignorance of other peoples' way of life rather than a hatred for other people.
The voters have rented you Dems the government for two years.
So govern!
Your problem is not the GOP but it is instead the fact that you govern with the consent of the governed in our Republic. Your task is to convince the governed that Obamacare is a good idea. You have failed utterly at this task so far. So, it might be a good idea to start there.
a bill without a PUBLIC OPTION isn't a bill worth having.
as sent to WhiteHouse.gov:
JUST SAY NO to any health care reform bill without having a workable & substantive PUBLIC OPTION as well as all the other necessary progressive measures such as transportability, no pre-existing condition exclusions, affordability, etc.
Anything less is not acceptable/non-negotiable - unless you want to lose all support from the entire progressive base.
DEMAND a true PUBLIC OPTION - nothing less will do !
@mule rider:
Here's how the present conservative conversation excludes minorities. The issues always discussed seem to always gravitate to themes like, "What THEY have to do to get themselves together and why THEY have to stop listening to racist urban pastors...blah, blah blah..."
I ask more pertinent questions, like, "what if you do all the the things that society says to be successful and things still happen to you that ALMOST NEVER happen to members of the cultural majority?" You go to a good school, get a good job, pay your bills on time, build up a good credit score, but get offered a subprime mortgage rate when it turns out you actually qualified for a better one.
And then you see the conservative conversation on TV and talk radio BLAMING the mortgage crisis on loans to black and Hispanic people, making them the main focus of the failure of the economy instead of where it really lies, in the greed of Wall Street.
No, the conservative conversation is seldom about convincing people of color to the conservative side of things with reason and logic. Your leaders---Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh, the God of All Things Right-Wing, don't want them in the movement, and that's the point.
By the way, Cosby may have fumbled the message, but he IS right about one thing---if you are a middle-class black parent, trying hard to raise good, hard-working kids, the present cultural environment is poisonous. But seeing conservatives still pointing the blame on them for America's ills is not helping the situation.
markymark,
First, I don't like the Democratic or Republican parties. But, I think people who are born wealthy, whether they are Democrats or Republicans, don't truly understand what it is to be poor.
I grew up poor. My mother had to work really hard to support myself and my brother and she never went on welfare or looked for handouts from the government. It was just her way. That resonated with me and it made me work extremely hard and sacrifice many things to rise up from poverty. Now that I have gained my degrees, worked hard as a professional and have a good income (I am by no means rich, but have a comfortable living situation) I can understand the plight of those who are poor, but I also know there is a way out, and while government agencies and workers are sometimes helpful along the way, reliance on the government to provide for you just doesn't work. I don't have a problem with the government being a helping-hand for the truly needy, but it shouldn't be a permanent crutch, especially for those who exert no effort.
Mule Rider said...
And the GOP - well, conservatives at least - doesn't have any more contempt for black people than Bill Cosby and have basically the same message. You're embraced fully as brothers and sisters and fellow American citizens in this country, but those of you who insist on being on the other side of the law, pissing on an education, and refusing to make any inroads to creating a better life for yourself will not be pacified with more handouts and apologies for all of the "evil white crimes" of the past, present, and future but instead will be told to buck up and get an education/job and stay off the streets or risk incarceration....which is the same way conservatives feel towards every ethnic group, including fellow Caucasians.
This Racism! Racism! Racism! meme is out of control and very tiresome, and I find it odd that it's white liberals who seem to be playing that card with much more frequency than minorities ever have. Which makes conservatives' contempt for you white liberals far greater than any of the true racists have ever felt towards someone of a different skin color.
Speaking for myself, someone so ideologically bitter like yourself gets me exponentially more fired up than anything even remotely related to skin color.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Setting aside whether the Rep party is racist. One could easily argue that politically speaking, they are racially clueless re: the Sotomayor SC vote!
Republicans Supporting Sotomayor (9 of 40)
• Sen. Lindsey Graham (S.C.)
• Sen. Lamar Alexander (Tenn.)
• Sen. Christopher Bond (Mo.)
• Sen. Susan Collins (Maine)
• Sen. Olympia Snowe (Maine)
• Sen. Richard Lugar (Ind.)
• Sen. Mel Martinez (Fla.)
• Sen. Judd Gregg (N.H.)
• Sen. George Voinovich (Ohio)
Republicans Opposing Sotomayor (31 of 40)
• Sen. Jeff Sessions (Ala.)
• Sen. Orrin Hatch (Utah)
• Sen. Charles Grassley (Iowa)
• Sen. Jon Kyl (Ariz.)
• Sen. John Cornyn (Texas)
• Sen. Tom Coburn (Okla.)
• Sen. John Barrasso (Wyo.)
• Sen. Robert Bennett (Utah)
• Sen. Sam Brownback (Kan.)
• Sen. Richard Burr (N.C.)
• Sen. Jim Bunning (Ky.)
• Sen. Saxby Chambliss (Ga.)
• Sen. Thad Cochran (Miss.)
• Sen. Bob Corker (Tenn.)
• Sen. Mike Crapo (Idaho)
• Sen. Jim DeMint (S.C.)
• Sen. John Ensign (Nev.)
• Sen. Mike Enzi (Wyo.)
• Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (Tex.)
• Sen. James Inhofe (Okla.)
• Sen. Johnny Isakson (Ga.)
• Sen. Mike Johanns (Neb.)
• Sen. John McCain (Ariz.)
• Sen. Mitch McConnell (Ky.)
• Sen. James Risch (Idaho)
• Sen. Pat Roberts (Kan.)
• Sen. Richard Shelby (Ala.)
• Sen. John Thune (S.D.)
• Sen. David Vitter (La.)
• Sen. Roger Wicker (Miss.)
• Sen. Lisa Murkowski (Alaska)
ie what were these fools thinking? Interesting to note lame ducks Voinovich, Bond, Martinez and Gregg voted yes.
yea, it's quite obvious the party of no! has written off the Latino vote for the foreseeable future.
Thanx :)
African/Americans ✔
Hispanics ✔
Asians ✔
Youth vote ✔
Older southern white guys, most of which probably don't vote ... OK, it would be rude to hoard all the voting demographics lol Reps can keep this demo.
take care
I liken the Progressive Dems in the House to Underdogs. They don't win often, but when they do it is sooo sweeeet!
Nate, your last line is a good one, but I don't think progressives are on that long of a winning streak. They certainly cannot be overconfident.
I posted this earlier at MSNBC in response to Peggy Noonan's assertion that health insurance reform is a dead duck. It bears repeating here as it is on topic.
"I disagree with Noonan's assessment (as well as her irritating, wistful, rambling cadence of delivery). To use the poker analogy, I think Obama's holding an inside straight or at least a pair of cowboys with an ace kicker. He has successfully made the Republicans give away their tell. They tipped their hand already.
I mean, let's be honest, was there ever going to be a better time to get thie health care thing done? Filibuster-proof Senate (no matter how brief depending on Senators Byrd and Kennedy health), loads of political capital, and a majority of public support. Could he have taken this on after 2010? If he wanted to guarantee a one term presidency. But even Obama says this isn't about politics. History may be unkind to him in the short term but if this passes WITH a public option, I think it will be his legacy. And when that turn card comes, I think it will pay short-term dividends. He'll get that political capital back.
Lack of passion? That's just a really good poker face."
I bet Obama is going 'all-in'. Bi-partisanship be damned.
There are more factors at play here than this bill. Progressives are tired of being walked on, and its an important move to stand up for principles to a president (who won't), and to the republicans (who have none).
If the progressives are true to their word and sabotage this bill, I will consider it a victory - for progressive organization and leadership.
@Richard:
Sure. UPS or FedEx vs the Post Office. The post office is cheap, reliable, and frequently far better than either UPS or FedEx.
In general, the public option will cut costs by being a true non-profit organization, with salaries capped at around $140K and averaging around $35K. Medicare overhead costs are a third of private insurance overhead costs; not just because of capped salaries and no bonuses and no perks, but because government doesn't have to advertise or market its public option, just like it doesn't have to advertise or market Social Security or Food Stamps or anything else (even though they do from time to time for reasons I do not pretend to comprehend).
I spent thirty years working for various government agencies as a contractor, beginning with a two-year stint in the military. Due to my security clearance I could work on weapons systems, but I also worked for two city governments, a police force, and a public prison system. As a consultant I worked for for-profit hospitals, large insurance companies, and a dozen corporations including half a dozen public ones. Pro bono, I even did quite a bit of work for a city symphony. At the age of 48 I "retired" to college, but still work full time.
I don't know where you work, but in my experience I see no real difference between the two. Government workers often feel a sense of purpose and service that I almost never detect in the private sector, and in some cases I find that is a reason they take lower wages than they could easily earn in the private sector. Another factor that rewards them for lower pay is the security of the job and the assurance of retirement; which has been a good bet for them given recent turmoil in the private sector with people that thought they had "assured" retirement benefits in giant corporations.
But I don't see slacking, and I don't see free riders, and I don't see any of those stereotypes of "gummint work." They work at the average pace of corporate workers and for the exact same reason, because they have a boss breathing down their neck, who has a boss breathing down HIS neck, on up to some guy that has to answer for complaints from citizens.
Too bad you don't think your job is efficient, but I have heard exactly the same complaints (too much paperwork, too dumb bosses, too many rules to follow, too restrictions on obviously good actions, too hard to fire bad actors) from a few of the most profitable companies on the planet. I suspect you just don't have the breadth of experience to understand that this is the way it is EVERYWHERE.
Here's the thing about us everyday progressives:
Most of us don't have a strong economic background. We don't have a concept of what a billion dollars really means, much less precisely which policy measures are going to save billions of dollars and which ones aren't. But the Republicans have done one thing: they've sufficiently scared us that spending tons of money to do good things (such as obtain universal health care) also means finding ways to save money - that it's not OK for us to be in trillions of dollars of debt to China in the long run.
So cutting costs and expanding coverage go hand in hand. But how do we actually achieve the cost cuts? Like I said, we have no intuitive idea. So we trust people we consider experts. Who do progressives considers trustworthy experts on this kind of issue? Well, people like Paul Krugman and even Obama. They've said that the public option is the only worthy option - and so we believe it. We don't want to see Big Insurance make off with increasing shares of the profits from helping sick people - we just want to help sick people, at the minimum possible cost to Americans overall. The theory behind non-profit co-ops and how they would possibly be serious competition to Big Insurance have never been explained to us at all, not to mention not explained well.
So here we are, supporting the public option. What else can we do?
Since the conservative posters on this site have stoutly rejected racism as part of the conservative agenda, I think it is up to them and people like them to be part of the first like of defense against it. It's time now for the righties to come out against all of the Hitler and Stalin comparisons(it would have helped a little to have paid attention in 9th-grade civics class instead of listening to your dad going on about "liberal indoctrination", blah, blah...).
Purify your movement by rejecting the lunatic fringe and the brown-shirt tactics being employed at the town-hall meetings this recess. The GOP DOES have a logical fiscal argument in this fight, but they chose to make an emotional one(OMG! the Dems are gonna whack Grandma!). Yes, it's a brutally effective tactic, and yes, the polls are undoubtedly turning your way, but it is not the stuff of good policy. Too bad. You guys could have been better on this issue, and you chose not to be.
@Mad Joy:
Divide by 100 million. There are 100 million taxpayers in the USA, give or take a few million. So divide government figures by 100 million, and that will tell you about how much money per taxpayer, on average, you are talking about.
$1B = $1000M = $10 per taxpayer; actually not much over a years time.
If you figure we don't get to something that might touch people, you are talking about maybe $200 in a year, so $20B dollars. As a one-time cost it might not be bad.
A trillion is $1,000,000M, so $10,000 per taxpayer. Now that is getting into some money.
Last I heard, and throughout the summer, poll-wise, town hall mobs aside, about 3/4 of Americans support a public option.
The president says he favors it.
I guess that's about the same as the public supporting the mythical beast known as Obamacare.
@shiloh:
That list of the GOP vs. Sotomayor says enough. Note that only 3 GOP Senators from the Old Confederacy voted for her (arguably, Florida is purple now, but still....). They have a specific constituency to cater to, one that still concerns itself with 'rampant discrimination' against white men, as if this group really needed any help becoming firefighters when the failed education system in majority-minority New Haven pretty much ensures the huge ethnic disparity between the fire department and the community at large.
(And BTW, if you righties thought I was for affirmative action, I AM NOT. The real fight is ultimately not with the City of New Haven, but with whatever exists in the urban and educational environment that produces too few qualified black and Hispanic candidates.)
Since the conservative is so concerned with qualifications and precedent, it would stand to reason that Justice Sotomayor is at least as qualified to be on the Court as Justice Thomas. And as a member of the Court of Appeals, she was mandated to follow only the narrowly-defined legal issues placed before her. Appeals Court judges are not allowed to create precedent, only to act on the issues at hand.
Why the conservative conversation concerning Justice Sotomayor misses the issues of Hispanic anger about their failure to vote for her stems NOT from any racism on their part, in my opinion, but rather on a case of severe ethnic blindness. The rules concerning self-help DO indicate a reward for hard work and proper qualifications, as it should, so by rules of their own value system, the right-wingers should have voted for her in greater numbers.
Dudes, you guys don't have a freakin' clue as to how mad the Latino vote is right now. Have you seen the latest George Lopez HBO comedy special? The first ten minutes should say enough.
I hope the guy I voted for pulls this off. Whatever it is. I keep waiting for the zillion blogsters (Megan, Andrew, Krugman, Fallows, . . .) to address one key aspect of the problem: A lot of somebodies are making a lot of money, and they keep making more of it at a rate that is 2 to 5 points over the rate of inflation. These somebodies can only (in the current system) be physicians, insurance companies and hospitals. A simple question like "why does a physician who spends 10 years in college make more than an astrophysicist PhD post-doc who spend 10 years in college"? Is this a free market thing? Hard to believe, really.
For a fresh (if somewhat libertarian) view of the health care problem, I recommend David Goldhill's excellent Atlantic article, in which he describes how his father, admitted with pneumonia, covered by Medicare, after 5 weeks in a hospital, died while running up over $600K in bills.
He should have just checked into one of the world's most expensive hotels (http://stylecrave.com/2009-05-15/luxury-hotels-10-of-the-worlds-most-expensive-resorts).
Tony C,
Even President Obama said that the USPS "has all the problems," not FedEx or UPS. See him say it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTi-WdOu2s. So, if your leader admits there are more problems with the USPS, then I have to agree with him that the USPS is not as efficient as the private companies. Furthermore, it was the private companies who were allowed to compete with the government provider who had a monopoly, not the other way around, in an effort to lower cost (just like the break up of the phone company too).
Next, you say they will not have to market its program, like Social Security or Food Stamps, but that's because Social Security and Food Stamps has a monopoly on what they do. Remember, the Administration is saying that the government option is to compete with the private sector, not take it over. To compete, they will have to market their product.
Moreover, any administrative cost differences between the private insurance agencies and Medicare are directly caused by government--state governments. Despite what some here have said, private health care insurance is a heavily regulated industry (my opinion is that the regulations being done aren't necessarily productive, but that's the government's fault, not the industry's). Most of the regulations on the private companies are done at the state level, where you have 50 different states that you may have to deal with (See here a GAO report indicating the various costs associated with different state regulations http://www.gao.gov/archive/1996/he96161.pdf). Furthermore, some states' regulations are more onerous than others (see here for a discussion of the difference between health insurance in New York and Wisconsin http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/Regulation_-not-size_-is-health-care_s-biggest-problem-8003652-51328842.html). Medicare only has to deal with one set of rules and one reporting system, not 50, thus they should have lower administrative costs.
This won't be the case with a government option that has to compete in all 50 states (again, assuming there is no single-payer system). The exchange idea (which I tacitly support) may resolve this, but it would lower the private sector's administrative costs too.
I would also agree with you that there is no difference between the effort of government workers and private workers, but I think you would have to concede that because of the large salaries that are offered in the private sector, they can often attract more talented individuals. Please don't twist this around and conclude that high salary equals more talent and low salary equals less talent, because I would agree with you that there are some really talented individuals who get paid lower salaries in the government and there are some individuals with high salaries in the private sector who aren't always talented, but in the aggregate, the higher pay in the private sector tends to attract more talented individuals (if you disagree with this, then you never tried to get a really good computer programmer to stay at a government job).
Finally, I never said a government entity could not be efficient, or as efficient as possible, I simply said provide me with an example where a government entity was introduced to compete with an established private industry and the government entity became more efficient.
@Whimsy:
This is the kind of story that ought to galvanize progressives, but fails to do so as much as the stupid lie about 'death panels' does on the right.
OMG, we can't even afford to die!
@ Tony C.
Thanks for trying to explain - really - but, I'm not a total idiot. I was just simplifying the basic problem with all these plans. In general, the arguments for and against them are too complex for the average person to understand their intricacies in detail. It takes sophisticated economic analysis to estimate their true effect on the markets - and even that is just an estimation, based on models that can't be empirically tested until we actually enact policy similar to that which we're trying to predict. The $1billion - or $10 a taxpayer (over how many years? Is it a $1b addition to the deficit, and thus a yearly cost, or is it split over some time?) - is that just how much the government is spending outright? What hidden costs and benefits are included? How will our overall GDP be affected? Etc, etc.
Very few people are actually conducting serious evaluations & cost-benefit analyses of the various plans that have been proposed. And experts don't agree on the methods that those evaluations should use. So you choose someone to trust, and hope they're right.
Blue Revolution and shiloh,
I really don't want to get into Supreme Court nominations, the Sotomayor vote and racism on a health care related string, but your argument that Republicans voting against Sotomayor is a bit weak. Otherwise, those Democrats who voted against Clarence Thomas should be considered racists.
Just for the record, I believe a Senator should decide whether the candidate is qualified or not, and if so, then vote for him/her despite her ideological viewpoint. I believe Justice Sotomayor was well qualified and would have voted for her, if I was a Senator, even though I don't agree with her too often. Unfortunately, President Obama did not adhere to this philosophy himself, as Justice Roberts was as well qualified for the Supreme Court as anyone ever nominated, yet Senator Obama voted against him. Does that make the President a reverse racist?
Oh Goody…
Another chance for an off-topic post…
World War II in Europe was won by the Russians. Period. The rest of the Allies helped quite a bit, particularly after D-Day, but the largest battles ever fought in world history were between the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in 1942-45. The reason we in the US weren’t taught these facts is that the Russkis were our enemies back when I grew up, so positive news or history about the USSR never made its way through to public consciousness.
For example, how many people in the West are aware that at the same time the US was landing men on the moon the first time, the Soviets were attempting an automated lunar sample return? (Didn’t work, but still, press coverage in the West was zip.)
World War II in Asia was won by the US. Period.
That should stir up the wingnuts...
Richard…
Sorry, but the senators who voted against Clarence Thomas did so because he is a dummy, which he has proved by never opening his mouth on the bench and having to consult with Antonin Scalia to find out how to vote on every case.
You really need to look into the "free rider" provision. It is a terrible idea and Grassley declared it a must have for any Republican votes.
My understand is that subsides in the senate fiance bill will likely only to 250% of the poverty level and have the "free rider provision". The free rider provision is the worst policy idea I think I have ever heard of. It would probably be the most destructive thing to hit lower class neighborhoods since Crack and Meth. I'm not joking about that.
Free Rider Provision…
Here is some info on the GOP-backed “free-rider” provision JWalker mentioned, and some analysis that shows why it’s not such a good idea.
@Pragmatus:
Whether the GOP was racist or not in not voting for Sotomayor was not the point. What I said was, that the Party broke its own rules about the definitions of "qualified" when they did not vote for her. For Hispanics, seeing that there was little reward for such hard work would seem to them as a slap in the face. Your post proves my point that your party still doesn't get it, even though you apparently do agree with me that there were lots of neutral, non-race based reasons NOT to vote for Justice Thomas. If Bush Sr. just HAD to place a black conservative on the Court, there were were plenty of them with a brain that he could have chosen from, with as much intellectual star power as Justice Roberts would later be noted to have. And BTW, a liberal or a conservative Senator does have the right to simply vote his or her ideology and say, "yes, I believe this jurist is qualified, but I do not agree with his or her judicial philosophy."
I am just saying, Pragmatus, that regardless of the INTENT of the GOP vote, it will likely be PERCEIVED as a cultural slap in the face, rightly or wrongly.
I would love to see how this plays out in Texas and Nevada in the next few election cycles.
@BlueRevolution
"It's time now for the righties to come out against all of the Hitler and Stalin comparisons..."
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=612
Honestly now. Beam in thine eye.
Richard said...
Blue Revolution and shiloh,
I really don't want to get into Supreme Court nominations, the Sotomayor vote and racism on a health care related string, but your argument that Republicans voting against Sotomayor is a bit weak. Otherwise, those Democrats who voted against Clarence Thomas should be considered racists.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would just point out the obvious. Sotomayor would have been easily confirmed w/out any Rep votes.
Whereas Thomas, who many could easily argue was a token pick by Bush41, totally unqualified for the SC, picked only because he was an African/American conservative judge, won confirmation 52-48 with 11 Dems voting in favor of Thomas probably because of affirmative action, rather than Thomas being qualified. 2 Reps voted no on Thomas and the Judiciary Committee voted 7-7 on Thomas sending the nomination to the full Senate without a recommendation.
He was a conservative, no problem. He was totally unqualified, big problem, as he has just kept a seat warm since 1991, asking no questions at SC hearings and voting like a zombie against the little guy, in favor of giant corporations, much like Scalia and Roberts, who were at least qualified.
Thomas is the perfect example of Rep affirmative action. Oh the irony that he is now on the SC voting 100% against affirmative action.
Had Thomas been Caucasian w/the Anita Thomas scandal he would have been DOA re: confirmation, again the irony. He won confirmation because he was African/American, not despite it.
take care
ie the Dems could have buried Thomas, but because he was a minority they didn't block his nomination despite his shortcomings, Sotomayor's confirmation was a formality.
Correction: Anita Hill, not Anita Thomas, but Thomas and Hill did make quite a twosome, eh.
I think everybody is missing is that Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot on healthcare @ 21% approval on healthcare and party ID is still slipping.
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php
I contend healthcare is a winning issue for Dems by playing hardball. They curtainly have no reason to fold their hand so soon.
Republicans maybe scarring low information voters in the short term but it's detremental long term. Nobody is getting warm fuzzys about Republican compassion or concern for the common man.
The Public Option is already a compromise on what most progressives actually want but were told was 'unrealistic' - Single Payer.
So this compromise on top of a compromise...for no good reason - it's silly and pointless.
Which makes it time to ask ok, WHY is Single Payer unrealistic again? Because Democratic politicians said it is?
But here's the flaw with the "on-tilt" poker analogy:
The Democrats and the progressive caucus has been playing it safe for at least a decade. This is probably the most risk-averse political clique in the federal government!
They played it safe in their "opposition" to both current wars, they played it safe with the Republican majority, they played it safe with the Republican MINORITY.
They played it safe on the bailouts and the stimulus - deferring to the "moderates" and the Republicans and the financial services lobbies.
They played it safe in all of their key campaigns in the 2004, 2006, and the 2008 elections.
They've played it safe (with just a couple of exceptions) with the level of rhetoric they use when engaging with the mainstream media, especially relative to the Republicans' level of rhetoric in recent history.
But this health care battle is their SIGNATURE issue. It's the absolute crux of the agenda they've been playing it safe for so long in order to enact! If they're not willing to gamble on this issue, they're just not willing to gamble at all.
And THAT is something the right and the Republicans know all too well how to take advantage of. It's a populist-backed aggressive left that has historically knocked them back on their heels. And that's exactly what's needed now.
excellent post, STRANAHAN
the public option was already our reluctant compromise or Plan B
the DEMs in Congress should have offered up the single-payer or Medicare for all citizens which is the real rational, logical, economical, compassionate Plan A that would best serve ALL the country's interests
But we are willing to 'compromise' [for now] and at least accept the far weaker public option - nothing less can or will suffice
a line in the sand
JWalker and Pragmatus,
The free rider provision is simply a poison pill. It is yet another attempt to scuttlebutt the entire process.
Seriously, I don't know why we still have to contemplate republican suggestions. They have showed their cards and they have made their priorities abundantly clear (i.e. to kill healthcare reform and hang the failure around the neck of the Democrats).
It is time to buy some shiny new building blocks and rattles, and open up a GOP daycare facility in the halls of congress. The screaming little brats are making it difficult for the adults to concentrate on the complex issues at hand.
@ Richard
The President should not have dissed the Post Office. They actually are pretty efficient at what they do. As Jon Stewart said the other night (paraphrasing), 'They take your crappy little thoughts on a piece of paper in NYC and dump it into the middle of Wyoming all for 44 cents'.
The USPS is being hit by technological innovation and resource competition. I had a lengthy conversation with my mail carrier the other day when I asked her how the Post Office could post a $7 million deficit last quarter. She explained to me that more people are getting their content from the internet and, consequently, publications subscriptions have decreased dramatically, similar to what newspapers are experiencing. She also listed the fuel hikes last year as taking a toll on what is the biggest fleet of inefficient government vehicles in America, among other things. I expect the USPS will adapt as they always have and continue to remain competitive with the private sector. Their package delivery is remarkably well organized and far reaching. The spirit of Obama's remarks were meant to convey that government run entities can co-exist with private ones.
As to Clarence Thomas: Democrats who voted against him weren't racist, they were right. What a useless conservative judiciary tool for Scalia.
wv: salism. No really. A condition of the salient?
Richard also said,
"but in the aggregate, the higher pay in the private sector tends to attract more talented individuals (if you disagree with this, then you never tried to get a really good computer programmer to stay at a government job)."
I think this speaks to the motivation that a person applies towards their work. Are you in it for the money or are you in it to do something meaningful in your existence on this planet other than accumulate some cool toys that your offspring will get to sell when you die?
If the former, then yes, you sacrifice some 'rewards' that others do not strive to achieve. If the latter, then perhaps you will be willing to compromise ideals to attain those goals. Sounds a little like selling your soul. How much was it worth on etrade?
BTW, I made that Clarence Thomas remark before I read the Pragmatus post. I get the frrling I'm not alone in this opinion.
BlueRevolution…
I wasn’t disagreeing with you, but Richard, who flung Clarence Thomas up as a way of saying “Oh yeah?” to charges that the GOP Sotomayor vote was racist.
FredZ…
I agree—the Democrats need to stop pussyfooting. All they have done is yield, yield, yield, and when I heard last weekend that Obama was considering abandoning the “public option” I sent him this quote of Lincoln’s, written in response to pleas that he try to find some compromise with the “fire-eaters” in the South who were trying to stir up war—
“Give them personal liberty bills, and they will pull in the slack, hold on, and insist on the border-state compromises. Give them that, they’ll again pull in the slack and demand Crittenden’s compromise. That pulled in, they will want all that South Carolina asks.”
That’s exactly what the GOP is now doing—screaming, shouting, threatening. Time to drop the “bipartisan” crap. He’s willing to work with the other side; they’re not.
Saint Dude…
Exactly. Obama needs to come up with some sound bytes of his own. When ridiculous charges are thrown out, and the opposition spends its time refuting the silliness, the attack dogs merely move onto another ridiculous charge. That’s the trap the GOP laid and Obama stepped into.
He has real ammunition of his own to use—
“Health insurers waste $300 billion annually. Those aren’t my figures—that’s from the CBO. Imagine what that money could do if applied to the uninsured in this country—almost $7,000 per person in health care.”
That’s just one thing to throw out. Then when the GOP tries to deflect the charge, go on to the next ugly truth—the millions in lobbying the insurers are spending, the CEO salaries, and on and on—he’s got enough ammo to last till 2010.
I am distressed that Nate has become such a water bucket for the Obama team, but much of what he says is true. I have never voted for a Republican in my life. But if Obama and this squad of F Troop Democrats don't get the public option, I will vote Republican across the board in 2010 and 2012. Can you see the crazed look in my eyes??
@brian:
Yes, you are right---to a point. For almost eight years the left DID use those symbols against Bush. What is different now, is the cultural context in which these symbols reappear nowadays. For the left, Bush did not represent some foreign 'Other', some 'alien usurper'. He was a member of a privileged family who got elected in large part because he was conceived in the right uterus.
The difference now is that this White House isn't trying to stifle dissent, scare us with the terrorist bogeyman or ignore the portion of the country that voted against him---quite the opposite. The President is reaching out to the other side, almost, some would say, to the detriment of his agenda.
What never seems to amaze me is how all those violations of the Constitution between 2001-09 seldom seemed to bother those everyday, ordinary members of the right when the Enemies of the People and Enemies of the State were the usual suspects---outspoken liberals, Muslims, Hispanics(regardless of their immigration status or national origin) were on the chopping block. If, to quote Barry Goldwater, "extremism in the face of liberty is no vice," Bush-Cheney carried it to another level, and everyday righties cheered them on because they thought that a degraded Constitution only affected America's enemies.
For a generation of liberal Baby Boomers, the present-day babble among the populace eerily resembles the days of assassinations 40-45 years ago, when a similar violent reaction against positive change shook the nation. Then, as now, the reaction against change came from some of the very same quarters as the ones who oppose it now, and for some of the same reasons. Look at what the conservative blogosphere says about Obama nowadays and you will find scary similarities to things said about Martin Luther King before he caught one in the neck.
As much as the left despised Dubya, there was not the accompanying de-humanization process that inevitably proceeds assassination attemtpts. And know this, Brian: if anyone had appeared outside a Bush rally with legally-carried firearms and posters whose words referred to the "tree of liberty" of Thomas Jefferson fame, I have no doubt that protester would be dead. Cheney would have made sure that death was legal and justified in the eyes of the law, and no court in this country would have dared disagree with him.
nope, ol' Clem is just an embarrassment on the SCOTUS. unfortunately it looks like he will stay glued to Scalia's hip for years to come...
BTW - Clarence = Clem
I was going to say that this seat is a black hole...but that could appear to be oh so un-PC...so I settled for a relatively benign but spot-on alternative term
I think when it come to health care the poker analogy needs to refer to the larger political situation. The progressive Democrats know that if they don't support a public option that they could lose to a primary challenge from their left (assuming their district is liberal). Essentially they could be folding an electoral hand when they are already all in; the same could probably be said about some moderate and open-minded conservative Republicans as a way to explain their opposition.
The other way to look at it is that the progressives have always been short stacked and consider only one hand worth playing and they have finally been dealt it so they are going all in. The conservatives can be considered to be highly aggressive because the only tactic they know anymore is to go all in in order to intimidate everyone else to fold and they can do this because even when that hasn't worked they have won anyway.
Hey, is anybody lost on the irony of where the insurance lobby is getting the money to fight health insurance reform? Oh yeah, your benefits. YOU are paying for the opposition to this bill. Goddammit...we are such suckers.
Remember the League of Nations. Democrats who wanted a real League were the ones who killed it. Of course Wilson had had a stroke... What can we say about Obama?
There is a big flaw in your analysis, and it's a flaw that's there in almost all analysis.
You're assuming that any movement has to come from the progressives. You're assuming that the conservative democrats can't be moved.
That's simply absurd. The conservative democrats are the ones with the most to lose if this bill doesn't pass. I don't think Barney Frank has to worry about being reelected in 2010, regardless of what happens.
Also, the progressives actually have the numbers. They're the ones negotiating from a true position of strength. For all the bluster of the conservative democrats, they simply don't outnumber the liberal wing. They couldn't come up with 60 strong votes against a public option in the House.
Furthermore, the public option is polling in the majority, and at consistently around 77% when framed as just an choice.
On paper, the progressives have everything on their side. The reason for this trouble is because of people simply assuming that the many must buckle to the few. That doesn't have to happen, it is purely a result of poor negotiation.
If the president wanted to, he could dangle the blue dogs over a political cliff by their ankles. He isn't, because he's a poor negotiator.
You can't deny that he is... you never enter into a negotiation starting where you would like to end up, which is exactly what he does time after time. Well, that's not what the progressives are doing. Their constituents are forcing them to negotiate from the position of strength they actually hold, and they are the only ones with a credible threat of withholding the bill from passing. Even the gang of six in the Senate have only a credible threat to make passage slightly more annoying.
It's only the congressional progressive caucus in the house that has the power to make or break this bill if they so choose.
Davy,
Let's be realistic. Money does matter in trying to attract talent. Do you think a team made up of mostly amateur baseball players, who are doing it for something "meaningful," would consistently beat the New York Yankees? Of course not. I'm not sure they'd beat them at all. Now, do I think a star baseball player on the Yankees is worth more than an average astrosphysicist? I have no idea, but I know George Steinbrenner would rather have the star Yankee and is willing to pay for him. That's the market. Is the market perfect? Of course not, but it is better at pricing commodities, including human resources, than any other system. Take that away and you get inefficiency.
Why hasn't anyone here defended Senator Obama's vote against John Roberts to be on the Supreme Court? Is Obama a racist for voting against an extremely qualified individual?
Again, I'm not defending the Republicans for voting against Sotomayor and I don't believe President Obama voted against Roberts because he is racists. He voted against Roberts because he didn't like his politics, just like the Republicans voted against Sotomayor because they don't like her politics. I don't believe either are correct, but let's not jump to racial conclusions simply because a black man votes against a white man or a white man votes against a latino woman.
One other thing that ought to be pointed out about Justice Sotomayor, it was President GHW Bush who first put her on the federal judiciary. She is probably as grateful to him as she is to President Obama.
Finally, I think the progressives here will eventually be disappointed in Justice Sotomayor. Sure, she has a strong progressive track record on rights of the minority in civil issues, but her record on law and order issues suggests she sides with the government more than most progressives usually like. As a pretty socially liberal individual, that actually worries me. But again, I thought she was a highly qualified appointment.
@ Richard:
My point exactly (see my earlier post). Senators are free to vote for or against a nominee based on ideology alone; they just need to say so and stop shoveling the horse hockey. In spite of the ridiculous spectacle Jim DeMint and Tom Coburn made of themselves in their questioning of Sotomayor, I think it's okay for them to just say, "I just can't go there...she's too liberal for me," and just leave it at that. I recall certain liberals admitting a bias about about Justice Roberts. To them, he was just too conservative; his intellect was not an relevant issue because he WAS qualified to be on the Court.
And no, Obama is not a racist for voting against Roberts. They just fundamentally disagreed on too many issues.
According to the August 17-19 Research 2000 poll of Montana voters:
55% of Montana Democrats disapprove of Baucus's actions on health care, only 34% approve.
36% of Democratic voters said they would likely vote against Baucus if he opposed a public plan.
If this were poker, it would appear that the republicans at the table have folded, and the blue dog democrats all have crappy hands. I think the progressives should push all in.
RICHARD
shame on you for that post equating Talent = Money
you are simplistic in equating more money = better talent. especially since that is simply not true, even in a free market.
first, NO market is totaling free - every one [including baseball] is rigged to different extents [drafts, trades, lock-outs, unions, accessibility, age, sex, race, location, religion, on & on]
second, while money is ONE factor - it is not the only one by any stretch of the imagination.
By your reckoning that would mean the military attracts NO 'talent' since compensation is relatively low... I would beg to differ, as would Colin Powell & many others...
likewise other public servants & judges for instance. YOU just implied that Roberts is a fool for taking a relatively low paying SCOTUS position for life when he could make much more $$$ in the markets as a lobbyist or head of the SEC or whatever. for Roberts there will not be a big back-end payment coming like for other pols either... guess that marks him as a no-talent dead-end dumb schmuck...
the ONLY thing that the really BIG money guarantees is that way too many immoral people will fight & cheat & kill if necessary to get 'theirs' & then more & more
back to baseball, the really BIG Yankee-sized payouts guarantees us cheaters like A-Rod, Giambi, as well as Clemmens, Bonds, Ortiz, et al. STERIODS = talent + ???
how about football - are you really going to argue that Eli Manning is the BEST QB & 'deserves' his new $$$ because his 'talent' is better than all other QBs ??? comeon... get real.
it is just another 'game' that many people will sell their souls for. including in the financial & insurance 'industries' - that is not TALENT that awards them BIG $$$ - it is shameless larceny & gluttony & cheating/gaming the system or monopolistic ruthlessness & other unfair practises in many cases...
on the other hand, many decent people find a moral trade-off in a reasonable compensation for public service or doing a good job [call that compassionate progressivism] - or volunteer their skills & TALENTs for Peace Corps & other charity work
it is NOT all about $$$ = TALENT... to say that it is proves you are shallow & despicable & even dishonorable & terribly unchristian imho
I feel truly sad & sorry for pathetic souls like yours that equate $$$ & power as the end-all/be-all
I am getting confused. Is President Obama a genius who is playing Republicans as fools? Or is he the awful negotiator who keeps giving way too much to the opposition? This kind of reminds me of when liberals were trying to simultaneously paint President Bush as an evil genius, while also calling him a dufus.
I think you either have to pick one extreme or the other to make logical sense. Personally, I'd place Bush on the dufus extreme. As for Obama, he's a good-looking, amiable guy, who has some book smarts and can deliver a good speech off a teleprompter, but his lack of experience is beginning to show.
DCM in FL,
Here is what I previously said above:
"I would also agree with you that there is no difference between the effort of government workers and private workers, but I think you would have to concede that because of the large salaries that are offered in the private sector, they can often attract more talented individuals. Please don't twist this around and conclude that high salary equals more talent and low salary equals less talent, because I would agree with you that there are some really talented individuals who get paid lower salaries in the government and there are some individuals with high salaries in the private sector who aren't always talented, but in the aggregate, the higher pay in the private sector tends to attract more talented individuals (if you disagree with this, then you never tried to get a really good computer programmer to stay at a government job)."
Maybe you didn't see that one, but I said directly that I don't equate more money = talent because I knew someone here would twist what I was saying. Congratulations, you were the first to do so.
Look, you can feel any way you want about me, but if you don't think that money has a significant impact on attracting talent, whether it is right or wrong, than I really want to know what color the sky is in your world.
in baseball parlance, Obama is in the bottom of the second inning [7th month] of the first game of his day/night double-header [4 year terms]
as the home team, his guys are about to come to bat in September & October after the GOOPers were up in July & August
so it is way too early to call health care reform a win or lose at this point.
it is strategic - sure, the REPs may have gotten in a few hits & dinged his designated batters - but how many runs did they score ???
the home team DEMs have the big bats coming up soon with large majorities of players with big incentives to hit the long ball.
health care reform passed with a public option will be a grand slam/game over event - and THAT alone is what the GOOPers know & dread so they have been throwing the hard inside beanballs...
a fight is about to break out on the playing field... I predict the progressive DEMs will triumph in the end game & that will carry-over into the second game [2012-2016] & hopefully beyond.
@Richard,
The problem for republicans is that they made such a strong argument during the Bush years that they thought it was inappropriate to vote against judicial appointees over disagreements in judicial philosophy. Now they have changed their tune.
This is probably just standard hypocracy, and no doubt if Obama had nominated a liberal white male justice, they would have voted overwhelmingly against him as well. Hell, they would probably have voted against a conservative, gun toting, pro-life, white male Obama nominee just to maintain their anti-everything Obama all the time game plan.
However, republican hypocrisy on this issue combined with the disgusting rhetoric that was emanating from the right wing media (and picked up to some extent by republican members of congress) may have left a bad impression with Hispanic and female voters. Time will tell.
RICHARD
how disingenious & pure concern trollish you are as you keep trying to play both sides...
you said; "Let's be realistic. Money does matter in trying to attract talent."
those are your words verbatim...
eat crow or quit posting such rubbish
Blue Revolution,
I think the problem, at least for the Republicans, is that ideology was never, ever used against a President's Supreme Court nomination until the Democrats used it against Robert Bork. After Bork, the Republicans continued to stay away from using ideology against nominees for the most part. Just look at the votes on Justices Ginsburg (96-3) and Breyer (87-9), yet the Dems used ideology against both Roberts (78-22) and to a much greater degree against Alito (58-42), even though both had long and distinguished legal careers.
I just believe it is a shame to put so much political partisanship into the Supreme Court nomination process. It just isn't good for the country.
"I am getting confused. Is President Obama a genius who is playing Republicans as fools? Or is he the awful negotiator who keeps giving way too much to the opposition?"
I think Obama has made a significant mistake by trying to include republicans in the legislative process. He should have recognized early on that he was dealing with an intractable opposition.
However, I would not consider his dealings with the republicans as a negotiation. After all they are not offering anything, will not move an inch, and are determined to be an impediment to whatever bill the democrats try to pass.
However, his "awful" negotiating tactics have managed to get the republicans to overplay their hand, and have energized the progressives.
The proof will be in the pudding of course. But if the progressives win out in the coming months, which now appears more likely than it did before Obama "gave" everything away to the opposition, then the case will be decided. Republicans are fools.
I'd be glad to cave myself on the public insurance option if Obama would just explain to me how any other proposal will 1) quickly provide coverage without driving the uninsured into the arms of rapacious insurance companies and 2) reduce costs by setting drug and medical service prices at reasonable levels.
I'm a professional with two chronic illnesses who's managed to cobble good health together with the help of my state employee insurance (plus some hefty co-pays). So long as there isn't some strong health insurance reform, I can't change jobs. Of course, that's not nearly as bad as being driven to bankruptcy because of medical bills, but it does personalize it for me.
So far, the public option is the only major cost-reducing measure I've heard in all these bills. Co-ops will take years, possibly decades, to build into competitive insurers. Insurance exchanges give us more information but are unlikely to provide enough price pressure to make coverage reasonable. My real fear is that I'll be required to have insurance, the state will drop its insurance policy, and I'll have to pay $1,000 a month for basic insurance and won't get a subsidy because I'm middle-class.
I am willing to go along with Obama and to be realistic as much as possible. But I have yet to hear how 'his plan' (whatever that is) will actually make good coverage affordable.
DCM,
I said money matters, but I never said it is the only thing. Are you saying money doesn't matter? If you say yes, then you will need to eat crow. If you say no, then you are way, way out there and there is no help for you.
Apparently, there is now "winning" with you. You called me "simplistic" in your first post because you thought I was saying money always equals talent. However, when you find out that I explicitly said that wasn't what I said, you call me a "concern troll trying to play both sides." I'm not trying to "play both sides." It is called trying to look at all of the variables on an issue and not being simplistic. Have you ever heard of the saying "reasonable people can differ on an issue?" I bet you haven't.
That Goldwater quote should have been, "extremism in defense of liberty is no vice."
Saint Dude said:
"Republicans are fools." For the most part, I agree with you that the Republican leadership (exactly who that is I have no idea!), at least on health care reform, have been foolish. Leaving policy aside and strictly looking at it from a political perspective, the best they could get is some compromise working with the conservative democrats and eliminating the public option from the bill. It appears it was headed that way last weekend, but then the Republicans, who apparently are more concerned about their egos than what is best for the nation or even their long term best interests, figured it was better to defeat the reform and give Obama a loss than it was to get a compromise that would have excluded a public option. The thing they forgot about is that they are a huge minority party right now. I still think the Blue Dog Democrats and certain conservatives in the Senate are worried about the public option, but the question, as Nate has pointed out, is whether they are more worried about having thier party not get any bill on health care reform passed. I think we are going to see a game of chicken, not between Dems. and Repubs., but between progressive and conservative democrats. It should be interesting.
Agreed.
However, now that the republicans have so kindly removed themselves from the discussion, the progressive Dems have the conservative Dems at a significant disadvantage.
Not only are the conservatives outgunned, numbers wise, but they do not have a bill, or any realistic ideas to reign in costs. If all the conservatives (Dems and Reps) would have put their heads together they may have been able to come up with something, but they didn't.
So in this hypothetical battle of progressive vs. conservative Dems, what are the conservatives going to be fighting for? They have to be FOR something, otherwise they are just Reps.
Richard said...
One other thing that ought to be pointed out about Justice Sotomayor, it was President GHW Bush who first put her on the federal judiciary. She is probably as grateful to him as she is to President Obama.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exactly, which is why 31 Reps voting against her for any reason, political or otherwise was just plain stupid politically when Reps should be trying to broaden their ever shrinking tent to include Hispanics.
And yes, Obama voted against Roberts purely for political reasons ie he was thinkin' of running for president and it would look good to primary voters, and he has stated as much that it was solely political and he regrets his decision now.
Regrets ... I've had a few ... but then again ... I'm frickin' president! lol apologies to Frank Sinatra and Paul Anka, I digress.
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you that politicians are playing politics in Washington and absolutely not shocked that (31) Rep senators voted against Sotomayor because as I stated, these fools are clueless!
btw, did I mention Dems and Reps really, really despise each other!
carry on
A little help?
Media conservatives aren't content to merely misinform regarding the content of progressive health insurance reform legislation. They want to misinform about the legislative process used to pass that legislation, too. Just think of it: Death panels passed using a nuclear option. What American could support that?
In recent days, talk of Senate Democrats using the budget reconciliation process to pass health care reform legislation has grown. According to Senate rules, bills advanced through the process can't be filibustered, and so the 60-vote threshold that must be met to defeat a filibuster would not apply. Republicans used reconciliation in exactly this way during the Bush years to pass tax cuts in 2001, 2003, and 2005. Senate Republicans also used the reconciliation process to pass a bill permitting oil drilling the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. (The final version of that bill signed by Bush did not contain the provision on drilling.) So long as the legislation in question impacts the budget, doing so is within regular Senate order.
Conservatives in the media, however, have now chosen to portray such a course of action as the dreaded "nuclear option." As usual, a little history reveals a lot of hypocrisy. The phrase was actually coined by former Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS) in 2003 during the Democratic filibuster of U.S. Court of Appeals nominee Miguel Estrada. At the time, Republican aides discussed changing the rules of the Senate to make filibusters of judicial nominees out of order. Lott, reflecting the drastic nature of such a change, called it a "nuclear option." Starting in 2005, Republicans noted that the term polled badly. They began referring to such a rules change as the "constitutional option," and claimed that only Democrats called it a "nuclear option." The media quickly fell in line, repeating the falsehood.
Fight the misinformation!!
Populism on the right does not necessarily represent the policies or practices of traditional conservatism or economic libertarianism. In right-wing populist movements, anger, fear, and resentment are often mobilized by cynical rightist political elites as part of an orchestrated response in defense of unfair power, wealth, or privilege (and sometimes all three).
Passing budget-related legislation through the reconciliation process and the "nuclear option" have nothing to do with each other.
This hasn't stopped the conservative media from conflating the two. The goal is to portray progressives as a group of anti-democratic radicals, forcing through a supposedly unpopular bill using procedural tricks -- or, in Chris Matthews' words, "blow[ing] up the Senate rules." Fox News vice president and Washington managing editor Bill Sammon was one of the first to draw the false equivalency back in June, and in recent days, the chorus has only grown. Dick Morris did the same on August 10, and Sean Hannity has repeatedly pushed the distortion. The Fox Nation website even chose to illustrate the story using a mushroom cloud.
Just as they did several years ago, multiple mainstream media figures have taken up the right's deceitful talking point, among them A.B. Stoddard of The Hill, Matthews, and even CNN hosts Anderson Cooper and Kiran Chetry. Thus far, factual explanations, such as the one provided by CNN's Josh Levs, have been few and far between.
Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's in your face. Always, it's lies! Lies!
his distortion has jumped from the media to the highest levels of the Republican Party. When Hannity hosted RNC chairman Michael Steele, he asked about the "by any means necessary" approach Democrats were considering. "Does this mean the will of the American people," Hannity asked, "as evidenced by just about every credible poll, means nothing to them?" (It seems as though NBC/Wall Street Journal polls are no longer credible to Hannity.) Steele agreed: "If it means the nuclear option, it's going to be the nuclear option."
The right-wing distortion here is obvious and blatant. For the sake of its credibility, the media needs to take its finger off the "nuclear" button.
Richard said
'First, I don't like the Democratic or Republican parties. But, I think people who are born wealthy, whether they are Democrats or Republicans, don't truly understand what it is to be poor.
I grew up poor. My mother had to work really hard to support myself and my brother and she never went on welfare or looked for handouts from the government. It was just her way. That resonated with me and it made me work extremely hard and sacrifice many things to rise up from poverty. Now that I have gained my degrees, worked hard as a professional and have a good income (I am by no means rich, but have a comfortable living situation) I can understand the plight of those who are poor, but I also know there is a way out, and while government agencies and workers are sometimes helpful along the way, reliance on the government to provide for you just doesn't work. I don't have a problem with the government being a helping-hand for the truly needy, but it shouldn't be a permanent crutch, especially for those who exert no effort.'
--------------------------------
Firsdt off, I wasn't comparing the GOP to the Democratic Party, I was merely giving my observations of the Republican Party from my position as an outsider.
Actually I think many Democrats do have an understanding of what a poor life really means [I am sure some Republicans do to mind}. I think the Democratic Party understands the value of government help a lot better than the Republican Party. To many Republicans using government help at all seems like relying or looking for a hand out on the government. I don't believe that many people actually are 'looking for a handout'. I think the vast, vast majority of people want to make there own way in life. Take illegal immigrants. They don't move to countries with good social security systems, they move to nations that have a reputation for being able to make progress in.
I think its somewhat formative to have a look at who political parties choose to represent them on the national stage. The last 2 Democratic Presidents have come from single parent families, and have worked their way up from, if not always poverty, then at least a fairly ordinary life. The last 2 Republican Presidents have been scions of a politically powerful family. They didn't have to work their ways up, becuase they were already there.
Now obviously the Democratic Party isn't perfect. And obviously the Democratic Party has its own powerful dynasties. But I would prefer the US to be a generous country that some people take advantage of, than for it to be a mean country where social progress therefore becomes much harder.
Nate said,
"... it is incumbent upon progressives to determine whether a bill with a public option really does stand a shot a passage. If not then their threat is idle at best, and self-destructive at worst."
I disagree with the premises of this statement. If the progressive dems can block legislation that will increase costs without producing adequate tangible benefits (as in the tens of millions that would be covered by a public option), this is neither idle nor self-destructive. It is A)probably what their constituents want (I know I have explained this to my rep); and B) a chance for them to expend some political capital to influence future legislation.
My rep is Raul Grijalva. Do you think HE thinks making a stand would be self-destructive? I am sure that, if he voted to block legislation that didn't include a public option, it would only deepen his support among his progressive base. Remember: progressive caucus members are there because they have strong progressive supporters in their districts. Imagine Kucinich backing off on a public plan.
The 60 House dems who sent a letter to the president, coupled with Pelosi's assertion that legislation without a public option can't pass the House, should be a clear sign that the House progressives won't cave. Remember 1994? The House didn't even vote on a final bill. This provided a lot of political cover for everyone, but it didn't mean the progressives weren't committed. If the House leads the way this time, and passes a public option bill, it might pressure the Senate to follow through, even if it means reconciliation.
I think this could be the House progressive democrats' Finest Hour. Let history show that, if a strong public option doesn't become American policy this time, it wasn't because of Grijalva, Kucinich, Smith, McDermott, or any of the other House members who stood up for their conscience and constituents.
I am much more optimistic than Nate on this one.
The best political guy, very straight and smart, says watch out for 2010 dems!
I wish this were not true, but I have to agree:
http://www.cookpolitical.com/node/4787
In many ways, the impasse over the health care bill and the resulting debate on this site, show me two things. First, the President's relative lack of legislative experience. Reminiscent of Jimmy Carter (noted for recognising the need for change 30 years ago), coming in as the fresh new face, and foundering because he didn't understand how the Congress actually works. Contrast with LBJ, who had decades of legislative experience coming into the presidency. LBJ, love or hate his foreign policy decisions, knew how to get things done, politically, in the domestic agenda. The second thing I see is an apparent strategy designed to get the President re-elected in '12 by insulating him from any consequences that may erupt from his handling of domestic issues. Positing that theory, the President's "bipartisan outreach" is a mere politcal tactic designed to deflect responsiblity [for any negative consequences of his legislative agenda] away from himself, thus preserving his large personal popularity for the '12 campaign.
@ Richard
"Let's be realistic. Money does matter in trying to attract talent. Do you think a team made up of mostly amateur baseball players, who are doing it for something "meaningful," would consistently beat the New York Yankees? Of course not. I'm not sure they'd beat them at all. Now, do I think a star baseball player on the Yankees is worth more than an average astrosphysicist?"
No, I get that. I think we're talking apples and oranges here. Poeple think that their health is more important than the microbiology of potential life on Europa and its possibilities for humankind. Ergo, the market demands more for doctors than astrophysicists. Likewise, sports or rock and roll. I'd rather pay my hard earned money to go see a show in the Gorge than say a talk on string theory (unless it was Stephen Hawking himself). Finally, I returned to grad school to 1). make a difference, and 2). to make a better living, in that order. But I didn't do it to get rich. And if I were rich, I'd use that money for philanthropy a la George Soros.
Point is, I don't think you can make broad statements saying that we all chase the almighty dollar. Some of us have higher aspirations.
There is a major aspect to this debate that has had very little coverage, but is critical. Major corporations and small businesses that are not related to the health industry, but have a major interest in the passage of a public option have remained mostly silent.
Wal-mart, for pete's sake, has come out in support of the public option. Wal-mart, by themselves could do more to influence Sens. Pryor and Lincoln than thousands of registered voters in Arkansas contacting them.
Progressives and corps make strange bedfellows, but the fact remains corporations will benefit greatly with a public option by reducing overhead for ever increasing premiums. The questions is, why have they not gotten more involved?
Robert Bork was not confirmed for the Supreme Court because he is a kook. If you doubt this, just read his “Slouching Towards Gomorrah”, or even just a review of it. To him, everything that happened since 1959 (including the Civil Rights Movement) has been a horror to the country and the Constitution. Yet that didn’t stop the GOP from harboring a Bork grudge against Democrats, that fit nicely alongside the grudge they held over what they perceived the Democrats did to Richard Nixon.
The canard “we need to overpay executives in order to keep the best” is back-formed crapola thought up to justify a system of compensation profligacy that grew up on Wall Street because nobody had the gumption to oppose it.
The same mental gyrations are being used to justify the period of national idiocy known as the Reagan presidency. We are now told, twenty years after the fact (strange that nobody was saying so at the time) that Ronald Reagan won the Cold War, when in fact Reagan was only dimly aware that he was still alive during his second term. The Cold War was “won” when the other side collapsed under the weight of an unworkable system, brought about by Mikhail Gorbachev.
Why should corporations get involved besides the obvious benefits to their bottom line?
First, the amount they will be able to spend to publicize their support for the public option and stomp all the misinformation coming from the radical right wing dwarfs anything small interests groups supporting the public option have available.
Second, imagine the dilemma opponents of the public will have. One of their biggest lies will have no legs to stand on. The idea that the public option would lead to socialism will appear ludicrous if PRIVATE corporations support it. What will be the right wings response?
Bradford, I think that its really very early to be thinking too closely about 2010. Though I don'[t totally disagree with Cook's view from this distance, I think a decent, strong health care bill could be the kind of game changer that swings the pendulum back in the Democrats favor. I also think it would see congressional approval ratings go up somewhat. Its also worth thinking about the old adage about people hating congress but loving their Congressmen.
I personally wonder if Congressional approval ratings aren't low largely because of the lack of meaningful legislation that it has passed recently. I would suggest that perhaps passing a decent reform bill would see approval go up a fair bit.
Gen Sherman…
Corporations find themselves in a very strange pickle regarding healthcare reform. Their self-interest, i.e. the public option, is diametrically at odds with their traditional allies and supporters, the GOP. Too, they like to present a united front, so when a huge chunk of corporate America (i.e. the health insurance industry) finds itself under attack by the peasantry, most other businesses hesitate to pick up pitchforks of their own and join the chase. I suppose they are afraid that the mob won’t be satisfied with making a meal of the insurers, and they might then find themselves the target of any subsequent outpouring of the public’s wrath.
As far as corporate American backing healthcare reform or hedging its bets, I think that probably actually corporate America may well see good benefits in decent strong healthcare reform, in terms of cost and in terms of bureaucratic efficiency.
Why not go all out for it? Well I don't know if its just habbit, or if its awareness of personal political outlook, or what, but it doesm't surprise me in the end.
Pragmatus said,
"The canard “we need to overpay executives in order to keep the best” is back-formed crapola thought up to justify a system of compensation profligacy that grew up on Wall Street because nobody had the gumption to oppose it."
Lots of people are good at what they do. Drug dealers, assassins, prostitutes, loan sharks, insurance agents, car parking meter police: they all do their job very well. My question is: why do we perceive their purpose to be useful?
@ Richard
To continue the baseball analogy; I think players that do it for the love of the game make far better players than those who do it for the money. At least I hope so.
Pragmatus, MM
Thank you both for your responses. It is just a question that peeked my curiosity these last few days.
There are a whole lot of CEO's of big businesses that supported Obama during his campaign. Buffet just to name one. Republicans are very good at leaning on their corporate sponsors when needed. That is something Dems have not mastered and have been reluctant to pursue.
My argument is that Dems have not been using all of the available resources they have at hand. I would target a few big businesses in "Blue Dog" districts to come out in support of the public option. I believe this will go a long way to bring into line the ConservaDems, and many more businesses may soon follow.
It may all be just wishful thinking knowing the Dems track record in organizing corps. They are much better at grass roots.
I would guess that "corporate america" is hesitant to support healthcare reform because of the possibility of an employer mandate.
Many corporations are perfectly happy not providing health insurance to their employees. Any requirement to provide coverage, or any pay-or-play scheme that charged them for not providing coverage would represent an expense that they would rather do without.
Corporations that already provide health insurance for their workers would of course benefit under the proposed changes. For one, their costs would go down, or at least not keep going up at the same rate, due to the added competition in the insurance market. And secondly, they would be competing on more equal footing with their non-insurance providing competitors.
If we are to believe one of the GOPs central positions, i.e. most employers provide insurance to their workers, then it would make sense that "corporate america" would rise up in mass to support healthcare reform. Of course if we are to believe the alternative GOP position that employers would be burdened by an employer mandate, then we have to assume that many do not provide insurance currently, and would not want to in the future. I.E. if you are stupid or unfortunate enough to work for one of these companies, then you should not be eligible for healthcare.
Small businesses would also benefit. But they aren't exactly what I would call "corporate america".
St. Dude, great post
Sounds like the Prisoner's Dilemma to me.
There is no point in trying to placate the right on this bill. The NYT's Charles Blow exposes the nonsense of that approach:
Concessions simply weaken the bill, with little reward. For instance, a Rasmussen Reports poll last week found that 78 percent of conservatives opposed the reform plan. This week, they were asked if they would support the plan if the controversial public option was removed, and 73 percent said that they would still oppose it. By contrast, liberal support for the plan sans public option dropped by a third.
In exchange for a tiny 5% increase in conservative support for the plan, the White House loses 33% of their base! Tell me again why they are still trying to negotiate with the Republicans?
What's a pubic policy goal? A reform sought after by urologists and gynaecologists?
The White House set the bar extremely low, to begin with by passing on a simple easy to understand reform measure, viz., the single-payer insurance model or what has been called Medicare-for-All, in favor of something ridiculously complicated and basically a bailout of the health care insurance industry, such as it is. The White Houes's vacillation over the public option shows a lack of confidence on their part in the thing, whatever it is, they're promoting.
I'm certain if you run the stats on polls, you'll find out that people are more than anything else disappointed that the White House has taken this unfortunate tack. No one is really focusing on this aspect of public attitudes. I'm really surprised that 538 has not been on the case, trying to find out what people really think and want. Part of that should be finding out what they think of Obama's approach and his cavalier dismissal of a much simpler and more effective reform measure.
Those who place a great deal of trust in Cook might want to look at this report of his from roughly the same point in the cycle in 2005.
There is a lot of "on the hand" type of stuff, but Cook was not really predicting a "wave election" for 2006 at this point in the cycle.
"At this moment, the political terrain is not tilted enough for Democrats to take the House."
"the building blocks are there, but they aren't big enough to create the kind of momentum necessary to sweep the Republican majority out of power."
Cook was saying it would take "the political equivalent of a tsunami" for Democrats to win control of the House in 2006; then he hedged his bets by saying "it is possible".
Or perhaps Cook's insight here (7/05) is more relevant:
"While President Bush and the Republican Party's public opinion problems are plain to see and easy to explain, there seems to be a strong sense of denial on the part of Democrats for why their poll numbers are no better. They seem to clutch to the belief that public attitudes are like a playground teeter-totter, that if a president or his party's numbers go down, the opposition party's numbers go up.
Unfortunately for Democrats, the world doesn't work that cleanly."
Doesn't that sound quite a bit like what Republicans are claiming right now? Obama's numbers are going down, so therefore (the wingnuts contend) the Republican Party's numbers are going up.
Remember, at this point in the last mid-term cycle, the CW was that Democrats weren't "for" anything and that the voters would side with the "responsible" GOP.
Cook is, to his credit, willing to buck the CW. The problem is that he sees it absolutely necessary to give optimism to both sides.
Or look at this analysis of the Republican "safety net" for a look into Cook's infallibility (6/05):
"The party whose president was in power lost dozens of House seats in 1958, 1966 and 1974, for example. But, having said that, the intensely polarized electorate adds a new and very different dynamic. Combined with the low number of competitive races, it is virtually impossible for such huge losses to happen this time."
Or here (5/05).
"Even though the GOP is very unlikely to lose control of the House or Senate next year, any Republican in a potentially competitive race would be wise to call a pollster."
"Yet no one predicts a 1994-style midterm election in which the majority party gets hit by a tsunami of voter discontent. It would take a tidal wave higher than '94's for Republicans to lose control of both houses of Congress."
So, at this point in the cycle, Cook did not anticipate the Republicans losing 8 Senate seats and 31 House seats. In fact, he ridiculed the notion.
It's too early to make predictions, as Cook himself shows.
Nate, the realities are this:
1. Progressives are but a Democratic faction to be used at election time and otherwise ignored.
2. Most congressional Democrats really don't believe in anything, to speak of, so it's easy for them to cut deals that eviscerate concepts that they didn't really support anyway.
3. Once the public option is definitely gone, the Republicans will go after the mandates. They'll love a national insurance exchange, because it will rip the guts out of the state-level protections that currently exist, such as risk pools and pre-existing condition limitations.
The end result of this "reform" legislation will be a worsening of the health insurance situation. As for the politics of it, the Democrats will find themselves critically weakened in the 2010 mid-terms, because progressives will participate at much lower levels.
I am a case in point. I donated about $10,000 in 2008, and about $5,000 in '06. If they don't pass authentic health care reform, I'm not giving a nickel to anyone in 2010. I don't see any point in supporting a Democratic Party that is afraid to stand for anything.
So far, other than the Sotomayor apppointment, which for all the sound and fury was purely defensive in terms of the Supreme Court balance, I don't see anything that Obama has done that's different than what McCain would've done had he been elected.
For all the ranting about the stimulus from the Republicans, if McCain had been elected they'd have done exactly what Obama did. Same goes for the bailouts. I genuinely don't see any differences here, or any reason to open my checkbook next year.
@Davy:
Richard also said,
"but in the aggregate, the higher pay in the private sector tends to attract more talented individuals (if you disagree with this, then you never tried to get a really good computer programmer to stay at a government job)."
I think this speaks to the motivation that a person applies towards their work. Are you in it for the money or are you in it to do something meaningful in your existence on this planet other than accumulate some cool toys that your offspring will get to sell when you die?
If the former, then yes, you sacrifice some 'rewards' that others do not strive to achieve. If the latter, then perhaps you will be willing to compromise ideals to attain those goals. Sounds a little like selling your soul. How much was it worth on etrade?
Good points, Davy.
In Parliament of Whores, libertarian / conservative / humorist PJ O'Rourke examined the workings of government. In one telling chapter, he looked at NHTSA. The engineers there had taken a pay cut to work for the government. Why?
Largely, he explains, they were car nuts, interested in a challenging job. If they went to work for Ford or GM (back when those companies employed people), they'd spend years sizing bolts for muffler assemblies for SUVs. Whee. Working for the government, they got to devise testing protocols and put a variety of vehicles into those tests, to answer whatever questions the times demanded.
In IOW, they were into it because the job looked way cool.
It's an interesting book. Though a libertarian with an instinctive distaste for government, O'Rourke writes with a respect for what government does and for the people who constitute the government.
So far, other than the Sotomayor apppointment, which for all the sound and fury was purely defensive in terms of the Supreme Court balance, I don't see anything that Obama has done that's different than what McCain would've done had he been elected.
That's going too far. If McCain had won, we'd be at war with Iran right now.
But, that said, this progressive anger comes as no surprise. Obama has been giving away the store to the right-wing for the past six months. The left held its fire because we were holding out for the big one. When Obama started hinting that he might give that away, too, that truly was the last straw for many of us.
This is a very bad analogy because the left hasn't been on a winning streak. Obama hasn't done one thing for progressives-- he's reversed himself on Don't Ask Don't Tell, on the restoration of civil liberties, closing GITMO, the Iraq war, etc., etc., and now he looks ready to give up the ghost on health care, too. You say we should be content with a health care "reform" that doesn't include a public option if that's what we can get, but without a public option there is no reform. Mandates or "co-ops" are totally worthless without even any price controls, and a health care reform plan centered on them would just be a giveaway to the very HMOs responsible for the wretched state of a healthcare system.
But more importantly, your poker analogy doesn't apply because this isn't a game. Thousands of people are dying because of our terrible health care system, and you're writing as if you're covering David Ortiz's hitting slump or something. I enjoyed your election time number crunching, but if this is really how you see politics, maybe you should crawl back to the Baseball Prospectus and leave the political commentary to people who know what's at stake here.
I think in fairness to Obama, sorting out the financial mess he inherited took a lot of time and effort early on. Personally, even then, I would have liked to see some health reforms folded into a kind of 'First 100 days' type agenda, but I totally understand the President's desire to, instead, set a tone by focussing on the economy.
Overall, I think Obama is doing well at the moment, but is in need of a substantial political vistory. My worry is that rather than risking a bad defeat, he will opt for a small victory. I agree with the Eugene Robinson notion that Obama was elected to be a Great President, and he should use healthcare to start acting like one.
If McCain where president (shudder):
1) The supreme court would stacked with another conservative justice, with the prospect of further stacking in the coming years. As a consequence conservatives would have a death lock on the supreme court for the next 20-30 years.
2) The second half of Tarp would not have been approved, even if McCain would have wanted it (questionable). The consequences to the financial industry and our economy would have been horrific.
3) The only stimulus that would have been contemplated would have been another round of upper class tax cuts. Nothing would have been done to shore up housing, auto manufacturing, unemployment benefits, etc., and there would have been no investment in infrastructure.
4) We would not be drawing down our presence in Iraq. Instead we would be negotiating to stay on indefinitely.
5) We would not be on the brink of restarting talks with N. Korea. Instead we would be stubbornly letting them go about their business, while throwing up our hands claiming nothing can be done.
6) A military strike on Iran would be imminent.
7) We would not be working towards closing Gitmo.
8) We would not be pressuring Al Qaeda and the Taliban in the Afghanistan/Pakistan border region.
9) We would not even be contemplating healthcare reform.
10) Our entire energy policy would be reduced to "drill baby drill".
11) Due to inaction on the economic front, we would likely find ourselves mired in a second great depression. And projected deficits would look even worse than they do today.
12) But hell, on the plus side: The armed militia types wouldn't be threatening to take up arms against their fellow citizens and their country. And SNL skits would be funnier.
@Burt-- Yes, McCain would probably have appointed someone with a persecutor background as well, who cares little about the rights of the accused.
And while you overstate the Iran war thing, I basically agree. Though for the life of me I can’t understand why Afghanistan is a “good war,” when we have no national interest in it and can’t ever defeat the Taliban.
To say that Obama has tended to the right wing, however, is absurd. He is a radical left winger. As a moderate, I think that Obama is absolutely intolerable. As much as I couldn’t stand W, I’m beginning to get a bit nostalgic. Obama makes Carter seem competent and Bush seem smart.
@RMG-- Pres. Utopia has not reversed himself on “don’t ask….” He only can do so much at once. The overwhelming majority care nothing about closing Gitmo. The issue is the rights of the prisoners there, not where the prison is located. I can’t see how Obama has reversed himself on Iraq at all, unless you’re quibbling about a few months. So what (especially where he’s escalating an unwinnable war in Afghanistan). Your comment about HMO’s is incomprehensible since Obama is doing everything he can to promote that type of managed care. I mean, really, Obama is the one who wants to level medical care so it can be affordable, just like an HMO. Your head is not on straight at all. On health care, your argument is that Obama is not doing everything he can to promote everything you oppose.
@markymark-- I don’t agree with your politics or your conclusion, but you totally have your head on straight.
Great analysis. I think there's a sizable chunk of the progressives in the US who are so much more comfortable with the position of railing against the status quo than the hard work of actually getting something done that they'd rather see the whole reform effort scrapped than see a bill pass that only achieves, say, 80% of their goals.
Me, I want a single payer system. I think the bills that are under consideration are unsatisfactory compromises. I also think that they, or something like them, are the only bills with even the remotest hope of becoming law. The idea that the progressive wing of the Democratic party will kill sweeping improvements to healthcare legislation that will see enormous increases in the number of people receiving coverage and strong guarantees of continuation of coverage for the seriously ill simply because they won't also get a few other bells and whistles (bells and whistles they would be free to pursue at a later date in separate legislation) makes me sick to my stomach.
I know it's nice to be outside the political process altogether and full of the warm glow of righteous certainty about what is "best." But politics isn't about what is "best," it's about what is "possible." Obama has no magic wand to wave to make the Blue Dog Democrats magically fall in line (and having little tantrums about how "the Democrats have 60 votes in the Senate" doesn't change that fact). He can be as firm and as resolute as he likes, but that doesn't make a single one of the Blue Dogs have to give him their vote if they don't see that as being in their political interest.
The public option would be nice, but it really isn't "essential." A sufficiently robust regulatory framework can force private insurers to provide coverage on very nearly the same terms as the public option. It's time for progressive democrats to grow up and wean themselves of their fatal addiction to sacrificing the good on the altar of the perfect.
Nate, I don't buy your logic. It's the equivalent to negotiating with the GOP, it's lose/lose.
We know what we want, 76% of the people know what they want, the dem's have majorities.
Now is NOT the time to accept watered down versions of progress with SO much progress on the line.
Now is the time to dig in, fight, make Obama do what we THE EFFIN MAJORITY OF PEOPLE POLLED want him to do.
It's time to feed the Blue Dogs to 2010 electoral history if they don't line up behind the progs, and it's time to hold feets to fires and that includes Obama, and ESPECIALLY Rahm.
This is no time for wussy minded capitulations, this is the time to draw sword and wage WAR on any one who opposes FULL REFORM!
1) Available, now, to everyone.
2) Run by the government, medicare is the model
3) Provides the means to FORCE industry compliance in terms of pricing nationally
4) PROHIBITS exclusion from pre existing
5) Streamlines and makes more efficient patient care so that doctor groups and hospitals don't proscribe needless care to boost billings and profits
6) Basically begins to eliminate the private sector's involvement in provisions of health care, and eliminates health care INSURANCE!
Anything less? Ok, a public option but no co-op's. Oversight and REGULATION of the private sector is no solution, cuz they'll pay congress to enact lagislation to get AROUND oversight and regulation (see banking and financial industry).
So Nate, I just plain disagree, completely, with your tactics and posits.
This is the time to FIGHT, hoss, not whimper.
Whose side are you ON, anyway?
To say that Obama has tended to the right wing, however, is absurd. He is a radical left winger.
A radical left-winger? Are you insane?
A radical left-winger would not have taken single-payer health care off the table. A radical left-winger would not be escalating the war in Afghanistan. A radical left-winger would not be throwing money at Wall Street every chance he got. A radical left-winger would not have appointed people like Timothy Geithner and Rahm Fucking Emmanuel to key positions. A radical left-winger would not be continuing Bush administration detention policies. A radical left-winger would not be refusing to prosecute Bush administration officials for breaking the law. A radical left-winger would not be continuing to negotiate with the Republicans on health care when they are lying their asses off about "death panels" and such.
I could go on... and on... and on. Obama's policies so far have been very conservative. To call him a radical left-winger is just ridiculous.
"This is no time for wussy minded capitulations, this is the time to draw sword and wage WAR on any one who opposes FULL REFORM!"
And then when you lose we have exactly the same failing system we have now and we wait another 20 years before the next attempt at a major reform.
Yay?
"It's time to feed the Blue Dogs to 2010 electoral history if they don't line up behind the progs"
What good does getting revenge on the Blue Dogs do you, exactly? If you run left-wing candidates against them in the primaries they will almost certainly lose to Republican opponents. Remember, those Blue Dogs were recruited precisely to run in conservative districts; they're not just random Democrats who decided to go squishy on healthcare reform.
So if we follow your "plan" we have reduced Democratic majorities in the House and Senate after 2010, a Congress that's fed up with and afraid of the entire issue and a White House that's been defeated on its major domestic issue.
So how are you going to get your "FULL REFORM" in those circumstances?
Obama is extraordinarily left-wing. Let me count the ways:
1) Cap and Trade
2) Nomination of Dr. John Holdren to Science Czar
3) Desire to cram-down the throats of the nation a nationalization of 16% of the economy with as little debate as possible based on arbitrary deadlines ("The time for denate is over..." WTF??!)
4) Explosive, unprecedented deficit spending (So far, 4X Bush 2.0 at his very worst and growing)
5) Increased monies for the Palestinians, hard-line on the Israelis ("Israel must this, Israel must that...")
6) The carte blanche nationalization of entire banks and automobile companies. When has something like this EVER happened? Government Motors?? The president firing private CEOs?? It's so state socialism.
Clinton is a veritable moderate Republican versus Obama.
1) Cap and Trade
You know what the most successful environmental cap and trade program in US history was? The Acid Rain reduction program. You know which president signed that bill into law? Noted socialist George H.W. Bush.
2) Nomination of Dr. John Holdren to Science Czar
Yes, it's a well-known socialist trait to appoint people who can be made to look extremist if you quote selectively from their works without bothering to read the whole argument. I know the book you're thinking about and yes, it discusses some very radical approaches to population control. It does not recommend them. Sorry to disappoint you.
3) Desire to cram-down the throats of the nation a nationalization of 16% of the economy with as little debate as possible based on arbitrary deadlines ("The time for denate is over..." WTF??!)
Yes, because the idea of health reform has never been discussed previously, nor was it ever once mentioned during the campaign. Obama just sprang it on us after the election.
4) Explosive, unprecedented deficit spending (So far, 4X Bush 2.0 at his very worst and growing)
5) Increased monies for the Palestinians, hard-line on the Israelis ("Israel must this, Israel must that...")
I wonder if there were any economic crises that were well under way before Obama became President that occasioned this deficit spending? Tell you what, I'll go and do some research on that and get back to you.
6) The carte blanche nationalization of entire banks and automobile companies. When has something like this EVER happened? Government Motors?? The president firing private CEOs?? It's so state socialism.
What you are inaccurately referring to as the "nationalization of entire banks" occurred under George W Bush. As for GM--again, we'll have to wait on further research as to whether or not there was some sort of economic disturbance over the last couple of years. I'm almost sure I remember reading something in the papers about that.
@ Davy:
"No, I get that. I think we're talking apples and oranges here. Poeple think that their health is more important than the microbiology of potential life on Europa and its possibilities for humankind. Ergo, the market demands more for doctors than astrophysicists."
With all due respect, Davy, I don't entirely agree. Particularly, when we all hear arguments that, say, medical school costs (and loans) make it necessary for "the market" to reach physician income equilibrium at such high levels. The education costs for M.D.s and many PhD's are equivalent. As is the educational sorting method (GREs or MCATs). Libertarians/conservatives would contend that this is all a free-market exercise, but I think there are other factors at play: a system that encourages fee for service; various barriers to entry for health providers (licensing, med school enrollment limits, . . .); other structural phenomena that make US doctors vastly better paid than anywhere in the world, including other developed countries.
Extraordinary hospital costs (e.g., $12,000 a day for an ICU room) are another example of mind-boggling cost.
Off topic: I keep wondering if a detailed study of 30 years or skyrocketing university tuition would lead to some comparative similarities.
Yoink - good debunking. I'd just add that Obama is most definitely not talking about nationalizing the health care system. Only a true moron would try to claim that he is. Which explains Walker, I guess.
Burt, be honest. He is. Every lefty health care policy wonk worth his or her weight in gold has admitted during their more lucid, honest moments that a public option approach is a back-door scheme to put private insurers out of business.
This, in fact, would be a defacto nationalization of America's health care.
Can you tell me with a straight face that Obama's claims that "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it. Nothing changes." is not a total lie?
Tell me how this would be true for someone who's employer decided to go over to a public plan?? How would they be able to "keep their plan" then?
That's the kind of bull#^#%@ that provoking the outrage across the country.
Hey Richard, Whimsey, etc. Enjoyed having a conversation rather than a flame war with our usual trolls.
@ Walker
I don't see any realistic way that defacto nationalization of America's health insurance (a far easier goal than health care) could ever be accomplished, given its extraordinarily motivated and well-funded opponents. The fact that a very popular president, with large majorities in both houses are having so much trouble with what are essentially tweaks to the existing system should tell us something, shouldn't it?
Every lefty health care policy wonk worth his or her weight in gold has admitted during their more lucid, honest moments that a public option approach is a back-door scheme to put private insurers out of business.
If "every lefty health care policy wonk" has admitted this it will be really, really easy for you to provide some citations to back up your claim.
Tell me how this would be true for someone who's employer decided to go over to a public plan?? How would they be able to "keep their plan" then?
Gosh, somehow in your rigorous research into the details of the healthcare proposal you must have missed a minor item or two. Like, for example, the fact that the scenario you describe above would be impossible. Sorry if this hurts your head, but I'm not merely going to assert that you're wrong, I'll provide proof that you are wrong. Read this:
Under the bill, no one can ever be forced onto the public plan. The only way someone would be in the public plan is the person’s own individual choice. All those using the Health Insurance Exchange will have a range of options – various private plans, and the public plan. If the employer is providing their employees health insurance through the exchange, it is the employee – not the employer – choosing what plan is best for them. CBO estimates that about 30 million people will be using the exchange by 2019 and that about one-third of them – or 11 to 12 million people – would choose the public option.
In fact, the Congressional Budget Office directly contradicts Rep. Tom Price’s assertion — specifically stating that Americans can choose the plan they’d like through the exchange:
Under the proposal, small employers could allow their workers to choose among the plans available in the exchanges—including the public plan … Approximately 6 million people would obtain coverage in that way, with roughly a third choosing the public plan, so total enrollment in the public plan would equal about 11 million or 12 million, counting both individually purchased policies and employer-sponsored enrollees.
Walker asked
'Can you tell me with a straight face that Obama's claims that "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it. Nothing changes." is not a total lie?'
-----------------------------------
Honestly, yes I can. I know that some on the right like to challenge this line, and complain about some tiny change to there plan that it mandated by new regulations or whatever, but what Obama says, at least at a technical level is correct. It maybe that insurance companies may be forced to change the terms of your policy, but thats different from saying that you can't keep your policy.
Am I splitting hairs? Possibly, but after all your insurance company changes its terms reasonably often without asking you, so I think its crying foul over a very small point to suggest that Obama is lying.
Yoink, to support by chain about Obama and his left-wing policy wonks on health care,
check these out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk
Walker, that video does not lend any support at all to your claim. It tells us, at best, that Obama personally thinks that a single-payer system would be the best one. That does not mean that this plan is a "secret" attempt to arrive at that end. Nor is a single payer system one in which private insurance is "destroyed." Most Western governments have both single-payer healthcare AND private insurance; there is simply no contradiction between the two.
You claimed that "every lefty health care policy wonk" has "admitted" that the public option is a "back door scheme" to destroy private insurance. The only evidence you can find to support this claim is a completely irrelevant video.
Meanwhile I notice you simply ignoring the fact that I simply destroyed your false claim about employers "forcing" their employees onto the public option.
You are both ill-informed and dishonest, Walker; in both of those traits you are a true representative of those who are opposed to healthcare reform.
Yoink, more on Obama's "sneaky strategy" (Ezra Klein, 2008):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndStT6c93rc
How, in these scenarios, will someon who likes their private insurance plan keep their private insurance plan if the full sneaky weight of the US federal government is scheming towards an eventual single payer system?
I am confused...is Obama lying to us??
Richard:
Sorry for the delayed response.
1) I disagree with Obama; and in any case, I think he was speaking ironically; in the sense that "everybody says 'do you want it run like the post office?'."
The USPS works great, whether sending letters or packages. It's cheap, fast, and 99.9% of the time it gets to the right place.
2) They won't have to market their program. Insurance is a necessity. All it has to do is exist, and people will seek it out. I can "market" the public option for the cost of one cent per taxpayer per decade. That would provide $100K per year for a web presence; too little money to really talk about as a "marketing cost."
3) I do NOT concede that the private sector can get "more talented individuals" by paying more. As a former (and successful) business consultant I say that in any large organization (which this would be) it is a myth to believe the work force is anything but average. A competent CEO or manager doesn't need the A-Team, they succeed with the C-Team, and they damn well better be able to, because like it or not that is what they've got. If a large business plan cannot succeed with average workers it should be abandoned. Talent is over-rated. It doesn't take any talent to approve a hip replacement or statin.
I have met and managed several talented programmers in the government and military. Even they are attracted by the emotional component of service and the security of a government gig.
To the extent that any talent is temporarily needed to launch a new product or save them from some managerial disaster, the government can do what it did with me a half dozen times in my career: hire a civilian consultant. My consulting brothers-in-arms are still out there and will still crank through 80 hours a week to make something happen. And unlike the Insurance company CEO's, we aren't charging a hundred thousand dollars an hour, and we will actually get your shit working and go home.
4) I don't know much about the history of government programs, but your caveat is a false one; it is illogical. If ANY government program competes well with an equivalent private service, that proves that government programs can compete. Period! When or why such a program is instantiated is immaterial, so is whether the private service existed before or after the government program.
The VA is a single-payer system run by the US government; according to the Joint Commission standards on quality (responsible for certifying hospitals in the USA and can shut them down), on all 248 quality measures for care the VA is above average or #1 in american hospitals. Certainly private hospitals existed and were “well established” when the VA was established and it is kicking their ass.
Medicare is public insurance and more efficient with better outcomes and user ratings than private insurance companies. Other countries have added single-payer and government insurance options specifically to compete with their own private industries, and their citizens love them. Ask Australia, Canada, and Britain.
It has certainly been done before. I don’t think the only things that can be done are things that have been proven to work. Some things you have to be first, and clearly sometimes when you are first it works. McDonald's started in 1940 and in 1948 introduced the "Speedee Service System" which began the entire fast food industry, including drive-ins and drive-thrus and all that we take for granted as if it existed forever.
Somebody had to be first. According to your false caveat, the USA would never have been founded (who ever heard of a country without a King? Are you crazed by fever, Jefferson?)
Hmmmm...Yoink...its an odd, odd thing...
President Obama's very own Chief of Staff, Rahm Emmanuel saying regarding a public option versus Obama's stated preference for a single payer earlier in his career: "the objective is what's important, not the means"...
Tell me, again:
How will a person happy and content with his/her private insurance plan keep their plan when the full weight and power of the federal government is intent on using an eventual public option to lead the way towards a single payer system??
I see WALKER is back again to continue spreading his intentional lies... that is what you are alleging.
although it has proven to be a waste of time to try to 'reason' with him, I will once again point out that:
first, even the big health insurance providers are not claiming that a public option would 'put them out of business'
in fact even a single payer/Medicare for all system would not put them out of business...
- the current Public Option would encourage competition & provide coverage for those that the private market has no desire to write policies for - BUT would rely upon a vigorous private market to carry a major part of the load just without the monopolistic & unregulated status quo with the introduction of a real non-profit
- even with a Medicare for all [the golden grail], there would be plenty of profitable policies available to be written by the private insurance industry as SUPPLEMENTALs - just as now with Medicare. Plus ANYONE at anytime could in effect choose to opt-out of a single-payer or Medicare [since Drs & hospitals will not be nationalized] & get or keep their own private PLATINUM coverage anyway since no one would stop you.
so stop the lying WALKER - you are such a persistent troll with your version of un-truthiness
IF our health care system is so wonderful for all, WHY in the world are many insurance companies & invididuals now going overseas for their health care [to India, etc.] ??? here in FL medical 'tourists' are growing by leaps & bounds because the private insurance companies are driving the care away with their exclusions & costs [another unnecessary loss to our economy due to the greed of the private market monopolies]
Walker, I notice that you're addicted to YouTube videos of montages of short out-of-context comments by people most of whom are playing no role whatsoever in formulating the current healthcare reform legislation.
What possible reason could there be for the fact that you cannot provide a link to any substantial source for your bizarre claims? I wonder. Find me a transcript of a complete speech or a complete op-ed piece or a complete blog entry or a complete anything in which somebody who actually has a role in drafting or passing this legislation makes anything remotely like the false claim you've advanced here. I mean, surely if every single left wing person has "admitted" that this bill is just a stalking horse for single-payer universal healthcare, that won't be hard to find, will it?
Just a single statement that isn't an out-of-context snippet from a general policy discussion from years ago.
Walker, just a quick come back on your Rahm Emanuel quote. 'Its the objective thats important, not the means.' Does not explain what the objective is. In fact what Emanuel is talking about in that quote, if you look at the context, may well in fact be universal coverage, and not a single payer system. In other words, backing a single payer system before was as a means to the objective of getting every American healthcare, whereas now a looser public option is the means.
DCM in FL,
Regarding this question -
"WHY in the world are many insurance companies & individuals now going overseas for their health care?"
I think a better question is this:
"If the US health care system is so broken and so flawed, why is it that upwards to 60-70K foreign nationals come here every year for medical treatment, including tens of thousands originating from nation's with single payer and national health care systems like Canada and the UK?"
I would say its because America has the best health care system in the world.
Examples of America's health care beacons of excellence for the world:
Mayo Clinic
Johns Hopkins
Cleveland Clinic
Texas Medical Center
I
more on the perils of medical tourism, which the DEMs should push back with agressively...
"A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue.[4]"
@ WIKI [worth reading]
but of even more concern besides the loss of profitable revenue kept at home is that the level of care received by the tourists is often below par & then they come home & end up in our ERs with lengthy stays or even death resulting. Further drains on our taxes & economy since the medical care is not covered by ANY insurance under these circustances...
this is all due to the greed of the private insurers & lack of universal coverage.
for instance, I need a hernia surgery. My BC deductible is 5K out of pocket [+ extra Rx] up to 7.5K before the 'approved' medical expenses are fully covered.
It would be far cheaper for me to fly to Costa Rica or some other 2nd world country for the surgery then recover on 'vacation' than to have the operation here in the USA where I have 'insurance'...
but if I come home with a complication, I end up in the ER with massive bills...
that is an INSANE health care system
someone should do a study that shows we are now a net EXPORTER of our own health care ceded by markey forces to other countries - and that this loss of income far exceeds those who actually pay to come here for their surgery
I didn't think I would live long enough to see so many people generate impassioned defenses for the insurance industry -- particularly the medical insurance industry. They must have had vastly different experiences with them than I have.
Anyway. Health insurance, like any insurance, is based upon aggregated risk and actuarial policies. The government has demonstrated that it can do this much less expensively, they have a lot more money (admittedly ours), and any agency would be subject to countless congressional committees. There are currently twice as many medical insurance employees as there doctors -- and basically all they do is push paper around and up the costs by 30%. Surely, a government solution would be no worse.
On another topic: One of the smartest observations by Goldhill (of the Atlantic article cited above), is that medical insurance is vastly overused in the first place. Why shouldn't we be encouraged to pay ourselves for pregnancies, checkups, tennis elbow visits and other minor or predictable medical visits? In other words, why isn't only catastrophic medical problems the ones for which we have insurance. He gives many reasons, all of them distortions to the free market that has gotten us into this mess.
@Walker:
Tell me again: How, precisely, do you know the government is "intent" on a single-payer system?
I want to know, because there is no evidence of that, they have never said it, they have never promised it, and in fact the single-payer system and single-insurer system was off the table from the beginning of negotiations.
The full "weight and power" of the federal government was not sufficient to even get a single payer system discussed much less written into a bill and passed.
You are a pretend mind-reader, somehow you know what the gummint is thinking? Take off the tinfoil hat, the metals are leaching into your brain and confusing your thinking.
To answer your question: The mandate is to have insurance; and if you have it, you are safe from the gummint. If your private insurer is making a profit and you think it is a better value than the public option, cheers to you and to them.
The point of the public option is to keep them from exploiting you, which is what they are doing now. You just don't realize it because you aren't suffering an expensive illness, so you don't fully realize that you are probably paying for a lot less coverage than you think you are getting, and in fact might be paying a lot for what is dangerously little coverage. Only a tiny fraction of a percent of people actually suffer such serious illnesses or accidents, but the majority of them discover quickly that all that insurance they thought they had, and thought they had been paying for all these years, is actually in the business of paying as few of the hospital bills as they can possibly get away with, to the point of apparent criminality and clear breach of contract.
Let me suggest that if you are happy and content with your private insurance, that is probably a result of a profound ignorance on your part about what your private insurance plan is actually doing on a daily basis.
WALKER
again you are incorrect.
Yes thousands are coming to the US for surgeries [although many of those are rare pro-bono/charity work now], although those who pay themselves are usually wealthy & it is by 'choice'
the #'s are DWARFED by those citizens who are now being forced by the market & even encouraged by their insurers [IF they have them] to seek medical care over-seas.
even the AMA is worried by this growing trend & their loss of clients as well as the 'malpractice' that looms afterwards which they get stuck trying to clean up the mess [or they refuse to even treat the unlucky ones who return here with complications]
you are WRONG - the trend is a rapidly growing net LOSS to this nation as opposed to 30-40 years ago...
MarkyMark (and the Funky Bunch?), you make it too easy...
Your quote:
"Walker, just a quick come back on your Rahm Emanuel quote. 'Its the objective thats important, not the means.'
Does not explain what the objective is.
In fact what Emanuel is talking about in that quote, if you look at the context, may well in fact be universal coverage, and not a single payer system.
In other words, backing a single payer system before was as a means to the objective of getting every American healthcare, whereas now a looser public option is the means."
Fact #1:
Emmanuel was aked why Obama said that he supported a single payer plan in 2003 but didn't now, right?
Do you agree with this?
Fact #2:
Emmanuel responded with a statement, "Its the objective that's important, not the means."
Do you agree with this?
Conclusion:
Emmanuel was saying, in effect, "The goal of a single payer system is the still the same, we are just using the public option as a means to get there."
He wasn't talking about universal coverage.
WALKER claims that 60-70K foreigners come to the US for their medical care... [no
I posted evidence that in 2007 at least 750K of our own citizens chose to go out-of-country for medical care
10:1 with evidence that this net loss will grow exponentially...
yet WALKER still wants to protect the inefficient status quo that is pushing this trend which harms all of us...
cut off your own nose to spite your face, but get away from mine bro...
WV - meter
so WALKER, if your claim that our health care is so great & the envy of the world - then please explain the logic & reality that sent 1.5 MILLION americans out-of-country to seek medical care in 2008 ?
and more estimated for every year fleeing overseas exponentially ???
begs the question...
but that is the GOP system - outsource everything overseas & milk the system for all you can squeeze out of it for short-term self interest only rather than long-term public interests
who cares if you bankrupt the country ? get a subsidy from the taxpayers...
DCM in Florida,
"One 2008 report found that more than 750,000 Americans sought treatment outside the United States in 2007 and projected that number to grow to 6 million by 2010.
People in other parts of the world are also leaving their countries for medical care, sometimes coming to the United States. The same report estimated that more than 400,000 non-U.S. residents will seek care in the United States."
I would surmise that most Americans going overseas for treatments are for mostly elective, cosmetic surgeries, i.e. boob jobs, Lasik eye surgeries, etc.
Most people coming to the US are for more serious, life-threatening treatments.
Walker,
No one here is against the fact that US medical care is the best in the world. The problem arrives in lack of access. Many CITIZENS don't have ACCESS to this "great medical care."
There only option is to go to emergency rooms once their ailments have become chronic and require the most expensive kind of care. This adds billions to the burden of those that have insurance and are forced to pay for their care through higher premiums.
The most conservative estimate puts savings to the American Consumer at $200 billion under a public option. That doesn't include savings to "Corporate America" with their contribution to the medical plans they contribute.
So please, explain how is this bad for anybody? Businesses save money, the American Consumer saves money, and many more will have access to this "great medical care" we have. I'm at a loss as to what you are trying to argue.
There=Their
"Tell me how this would be true for someone who's employer decided to go over to a public plan?? How would they be able to "keep their plan" then?"
Your employer today could move to any number of private plans. There are plenty of cheaper options to choose from. Why don't they? Maybe they don't because they want to keep quality employees like yourself. How would this change with a public option?
'Competition lacking among private health insurers' [AP]
"One of the most widely accepted arguments against a government medical plan for the middle class is that it would quash competition — just what private insurers seem to be doing themselves in many parts of the U.S.
Several studies show that in lots of places, one or two companies dominate the market. Critics say monopolistic conditions drive up premiums paid by employers and individuals."...
@ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090822/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_insurance_competition_5
So WALKER et al - spin that free market = we're #1 myth all you want, but the truth is not on your side
we NEED a public option or Medicare for ALL - you can opt out or get a premium supplemental policy - bu the current health insurance monopoly must be broken
I won't even start on the most disingenuous argument by the right wing. The argument of a government mandate on what kind of care you will be allowed.
As of now, thousands die every year because they don't even get to see any kind of medical treatment before it is too late. Talk about "death panels." These CITIZENS don't have medical COVERAGE through no fault of their own. Unemployment, prior existing condition, on, and on, and on, and on.
Continue on with the talking points of the insurance companies.
How much are they paying you?
Walker…
I probably agree with one thing you said, while rejecting everything else. I think that we will eventually end up with a single-payer system, for the same reason that all water runs downhill.
Private-insurer based health care has some incurable drawbacks, that, when pitted against a public option, will prove fatal. For example—their enormous overhead and waste, that they do nothing to redress. Instead, they dump it on the premium payers. They also dump multi-million dollar salaries on the premium payers, as well as profits for the shareholders.
If someone says he is happy with his health insurance he probably isn’t really. He’s happy with the health care he receives, which is quite separate from the insurance. He just hasn’t seen the ugly underbelly of his insurer. Who can be happy with referrals, authorizations, rejections of referrals, bureaucratic interference, cancellation of coverage, pressure on his doctor to deny treatment or medicine to hold costs down, retroactive denial of coverage based on spurious claims of “pre-existing conditions”? If someone claims to be happy with that, he’s just not paying attention.
As I have stated before, I went from a private-insurer Medicare (Medicare Advantage) to straight Medicare, and the quality of my health care improved, my out-of pocket costs are way down, all insurance company bureaucrats I used to have to deal with have vanished, my selection of doctors increased 100-fold, and when I am sick I simply go to the doctor.
Did you know, Walker, that at one time firefighting was not part of the public weal? That’s right, it was provided by private enterprise—with such a horrific result that in the 18th Century the entire enterprise was reorganized along a public pattern. We laugh now at the spectacle of 17th Century firefighters standing idle at the site of a fire because the owner of the property was not under contract to them—someday we will have the vanished venal health insurance industry to poke fun at.
WALKER - even IF what you surmise is accurate [which I doubt] since hip-replacement is listed as the #1 reason for the US citizen to go rogue...
how can you justify the enourmous net loss & the resultant balance of trade deficit when our $$$ unnecessarily are being shipped overseas ???
10:1 and a growing gap ??? do the math. whether it is critical care or elective surgery - it is $$$ lost from our own health care system which then cause costs to rise at home & competition to decrease...
economically unsustainable in the long-run [empty hospital beds = money lost] PLUS in effect this all leads to further rationing of medical care
and yes, we do currently ration our health care by the status quo inefficiencies & lack of insurance coverage for much of our citizens
that is inherently unchristian when health care should be a right, not a privilege
Todd Dugdale said...
Those who place a great deal of trust in Cook might want to look at this report of his from roughly the same point in the cycle in 2005.
There is a lot of "on the hand" type of stuff, but Cook was not really predicting a "wave election" for 2006 at this point in the cycle.
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Again, for the umpteenth time, what had a big impact on the '06 election was the Mark Foley scandal breaking (2) wks before the election and, of course, the accumulation of (6) years of cheney/bush incompetence, corruption.
Which is why speculating over a year out is usually fruitless/meaningless. Pundits do what pundits do, they opine. This is the reality of cable news media minutia. They have to fill newspapers, magazines, cable news w/ad nauseam blather. And yes Virginia, these fools are actually paid to do this, America, what a country!
ie Glenn Beck, I rest my case!
Predicting politics is fun but meaningless until a couple wks before any election.
carry on
p.s. imo Obama's grandmother passing the day before the election sealed the deal w/undecided voters. Dare I say, empathy.
take care
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