8.12.2009

Are The Health Care Protests Working? And Are Liberals Helping Them?

It's been interesting to digest the interaction between liberal and conservative blogs on the issue of the health care protests. If you take a look at a service like Memorandum, you'll find that stories about the protests have almost always been the lede in the blogosphere over the course of the past 10-14 days. There are daily, and sometimes even hourly, ebbs and flows in who seems to be pushing the stories -- conservative blogs one day, liberal blogs the next. But both sides seem to feel as though they have something to gain. Quite frankly, I've felt a little lost here. The coverage has been so intensely partisan on both sides that it's hard to get any real idea about what the protests are really like on the ground: who is protesting, how many are protesting, what they're protesting about (the answer is not as obvious it might seem), in which sorts of districts the protesters live, and how all of this is affecting the views of average Americans on the health care reform bills pending before Congress (and more importantly, the views of the 535 Congressmen who will ultimately have to vote on the package).

The closest thing we have so far to objective evidence is a Gallup poll that came out today. The poll finds that 34 percent of Americans say the protests have made them more sympathetic to the protesters' views, 21 percent less sympathetic, and 46 percent unsure or indifferent.

Polls of this nature, however, are notoriously slippery. If there were some protest in favor of a policy that I supported -- like expanded stem-cell research -- I'd probably tell a pollster that the protest had in fact made me more sympathetic to the cause, even though my mind on the issue was already 100 percent made up and was not going to be swayed. The real question, then, is how many minds are being changed on the issue. And it may not be all that many. Three relevant polls have come out on this subject in August: a Rasmussen poll found some further erosion in support for the bills pending before Congress, but a Gallup poll did not find any further decline in Obama's approval on health care since mid-July. Nor did a CNN poll find any decline in support for the Democrats' health package, although that poll is now about a week old.

Still, there are some good numbers for the protesters, like the fact that independents, by a 35:16 plurality, said the protests were making them more sympatathetic to the cause. And I have no doubt that the protests are tending to make views on health care reform more entrenched.

Ultimately, while the upside is debatable, I certainly don't see much downside to conservative blogs in advancing stories about the protests. For liberal blogs, the matter is a little trickier. On the one hand, some amount of pushback is necessary -- you don't want this to be a one-sided debate. On the other hand, the pushback is certainly propelling the protests -- which are being carried out by ultimaetly a very small fraction of the electorate -- further into the public spotlight, which may encourage the mainstream media to cover them. So maybe on CNN, instead of getting a 2-minute, largely sympathetic story on the protests for every hour of coverage, you're instead getting a 6-minute, somewhat-to-mostly sympathetic story on the protests (that seemed to be about the ratio when I was watching the network during an airport delay today). It's not clear to me that this is such a good trade-off for liberals.

At the end of the day, health care reform is liable to succeed or fail based on the extent to which Americans -- and the Congressmen they elect -- are informed about the true nature of the bills pending before the House and Senate. We're in a somewhat peculiar situation in that the idea of health care reform overall remains popular, and moreover, the views toward most of the particular elements that are actually contained within the health care packages (like the public option or the surtax on the wealthy) are also pretty popular. And yet, when you ask people about the "plan" being contemplated by the Congress and/or the President, it is not very popular. There are a lot of reasons for this, many of which are the Democrats' fault -- they haven't settled on a particular plan, and the President's messaging, although better of late, has not been terribly effective.

But the real upside to the protests is that they perpetuate misinformation about the Democrats' bills. Forget the birthers -- I want to know how many Americans believe in the "death panels". (I also want to know whether Chuck Grassley, since he seems to be one of them, would accept the following trade: Democrats will drop the "death panels" if you'll drop your opposition to the public option.)

Ultimately, the message that Democrats need to be getting across is not that the protesters are protesting in the wrong way or for the wrong reasons, but that they're protesting, in some substantial measure, about the wrong things: that what they seem to think is contained in the health care package doesn't necessarily match the reality.

232 comments

Geoff said...

Three relevant polls have come out on this subject in August: a Rasmussen poll found some further erosion in support for the bills pending before Congress, but a Gallup poll did not find any further decline in Obama's approval on health care since mid-July. Nor did a CNN poll find any decline in support for the Democrats' health package, although that poll is now about a week old.

silver, i respected you alot as an intelligent lefty during election 08.

especially on the unforgiving math of polling.

this is your waterloo my friend.

that CNN poll has an oversample of African Americans - 22% of the poll - and you KNOW THAT.

You also know that African Americans are likely to support Obama on ANYTHING. (except maybe gay marriage)

YET, in this post you use the CNN poll, obviously an outlier because of the sampling, as your example of how Obamacare is holding up well?
Really?
I know you lefties want to write the story up as "OBAMA TOWN HALLS TURN PUBLIC IN FAVOR OF OBAMACARE" but the facts are otherwise, my friends.

This is a center right country, deal with it.
Your credibility is waning, sir.

Wolf of Aquarius said...

Nate,

I've been seeing a lot more mention in the news about pro-reform protesters showing up. It looks like the Left is really starting to push back. Wouldn't this completely change the effect of the townhall protests?

shiloh said...

(((If))) and when the Dems, minus the party of No!, pass a workable, rational, functional, practical, reasonable, common sense health care bill, all this media minutia won't matter.

And all these, I can't grasp the concept of an African/American family living in the White House, protesters may have a positive effect on Dems by giving them a bunker mentality.

Time will tell.

De Montfort said...

These protesters would be much more effective if they were targeting blue dog dems and red state senate dems to try and peel off some votes for reform. But the people they're targeting will vote for reform regardless of how many grumpy town halls they deal with. Targeting Spector(who has to move left to win his primary), McCaskill, Doggett, Cardin, etc etc etc is basically pointless politically.

De Montfort said...

@Shiloh: If/when reform is passed, and the final bill doesn't have all these conspiracy theories in them, a lot of the anger will subside.

~ Rebecca said...

Geoff, I read the post as pointing out that the polls showed town-hall meetings were mostly working as a measure to keep the supporters supporting. What Nate's skeptical about is their ability to bring over doubters -- since he doesn't mention improvement in the numbers, and he mentions the difficulty of gauging how many people are changing their minds based on the protests.

(He also goes on to comment about who benefits by giving the protesters air time.)

Geoff said...

De Montfort said...

These protesters would be much more effective if they were targeting blue dog dems and red state senate dems to try and peel off some votes for reform. But the people they're targeting will vote for reform regardless of how many grumpy town halls they deal with. Targeting Spector(who has to move left to win his primary), McCaskill, Doggett, Cardin, etc etc etc is basically pointless politically.


the left isnt stupid my friend.

all the vulnerable dems are in witness protection.

:)

do you really not see the long picture re dem v. gop ?

its obvious to any thinking observer - pelosi and hoyer ordered all the blue dogs to hide, and OBama/Pelosi are trying to alter public opinion now to allow the blue dogs to vote yes in mid sept.

will it work?

AMERICAN HISTORY is on the line :)

great time to be alive.

Geoff said...

Blogger ~ Rebecca said...

Geoff, I read the post as pointing out that the polls showed town-hall meetings were mostly working as a measure to keep the supporters supporting. What Nate's skeptical about is their ability to bring over doubters -- since he doesn't mention improvement in the numbers, and he mentions the difficulty of gauging how many people are changing their minds based on the protests.

(He also goes on to comment about who benefits by giving the protesters air time.)

August 12, 2009 11:24 PM

aright becka maybe im a little hard on ole boy in my post.

i just really respected his analysis during the election and to miss a DOUBLE oversample of african americans is a little fishy re the nate i knew.

i usedta post on here a ton back in the day ---- late 07 and early 08

its cool here - im a centrist leaning conservative but i am very open minded about discussing and debating policy/polls.

im a little sad to see the comments are so weak in number now.

when i was here, it was up to 200 quick and you had to read em on the little window!

Wolf of Aquarius said...

@De Montfort,

Sadly, the Obama-haters will find some new conspiracy theory to latch on to. We can make a list of the ones so far (feel free to add to this):

Secret Muslim
ACORN stealing election
Birthergate
Death Panels

None of these had any basis in fact but the same crowd is jumping from one to another. It's a sad testament to the complete lack of critical thinking in a large segment of the population or to a lack of reliable information sources for too many.

pyromanfo said...

I think the reason the Democrats are focusing on how they're protesting (i.e. shouting everyone down) is because they're trying (I'd say successfully) to paint the protesters as fringe, crazy or violent.

The same way Nixon used to let the craziest anti-war protesters on camera to show himself contrasted with them, it made him look like the one keeping America safe from the radical left. It's the same tactic, the Democrats are trying to look like the ones keeping America safe from the right-wing fringe.

So is it working on health care? I don't know, but it definitely fits into the Democrats long term goals.

De Montfort said...

@Geoff

You can believe any nonsense you want to, but all of blue dog dems and "vulnerable" dems have been holding town halls. I have yet to hear of one who had problems with a town hall.

shiloh said...

Geoff said...

AMERICAN HISTORY is on the line :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


American history was on the line Nov. 4th when America elected Barack Hussein Obama the 44th President of the United States. One may have missed it, but it was in all the newspapers and pretty sure cable news had some coverage also.

btw, Obama is president for another (3) 1/2 er (7) 1/2 years ie a chance to nominate 3/4 more Supreme Court justices and make more American history!

Plus signing a historic Health Care bill, and maybe a historic Energy bill etc. etc.

So much history, so little time.

America, what a country!

take care

Brendan Garbee said...

I don't think these are good numbers for the conservatives. Roughly 67% of people polled either aren't effected by the protests, or aren't paying attention. Not a "game changing" number, by any means.

Versus roughly 34% of people who say they are "more sympathetic." I'm going to venture to say that 34% of the American people wouldn't have supported a Democratic health care reform, no matter what.

In addition, these numbers were taken Tuesday. Since then we've seen the town hall protesters with the guns, and the big swastika on that Congressman's office. And the media coverage has gradually shifted to debunking the false claims the town hallers are upset about.

All in all, I think the town hallers are having roughly the same effect as they did as the tea baggers.

Hu Chi said...

The level of hysteria from the town hall protesters and teabaggers (anyone care to figure out what the overlap is there?) is telling.

When you have to lie, or convince people to believe lies, to make your case, you may be successful in the short term, but history will likely prove you wrong. I'd like to believe that anyway.

A problem on the left is that those who recognize the complexity of the health care issue, and support their congressperson's position (as I do), are unlikely to show up at a meeting to put in their inexpert two cents' worth.

Some folks, on the other hand, once they hear about death panels and abortion while-u-wait, have nothing better to do than vent their spleen at meetings whose purpose is to discuss issues. They don't bother to ask any questions that might get in the way of their anger.

Lawrence O'Donnell interviewed a protester today who basically admitted that she was a rather well-off know-nothing who hadn't paid any attention to anything political until Obama was elected, and who has now been mysteriously moved to declare that she doesn't want the US to turn into Russia (Russia!). She seemed like a perfectly nice woman without a clue in the world.

If anyone was bent on making the US run like Russia it was Dubya, who saw the same oil in Putin's soul that he had in his own.

If by "center right", Geoff, you mean "brainwashed by corporate interests", you may be right--not very American, if I read my founding fathers correctly, but right.

FetchingPuput said...

I have great fear that so much kerosene has been poured by Republican lies on healthcare reform that we may see an unfortunate flashpoint that involves the loss of life before August is over.

I think that Obama has played this very well, he's pro reform but not for any plan because there isn't a plan to pick apart. Now that Grassley spit in his face, he has the power to push the caucus in a different direction more decisively. It's now clear that there's no possible reform bill that Republicans will sign onto and that was their plan all along. Politically, it's difficult to lay blame on Democrats for a failure in talks after seeing the rhetoric from the Right.

Democrats never reach out and fight unless the fear of losing on an issue is palpable. If pro-reform folks think they can sit at home and whine without actively confronting the lies, they will not get a health care bill they are happy with.

Geoff said...

De Montfort said...

@Geoff

You can believe any nonsense you want to, but all of blue dog dems and "vulnerable" dems have been holding town halls. I have yet to hear of one who had problems with a town hall.


okay - list the blue dogs who have held town halls.

Hu Chi said...

Are we seeing a "wag the blue dog" strategy?

Zahlman said...

Geoff: Who the fuck are you, and why do you have *any* credibility? Give me a reason not to believe you're pulling numbers out of your ass. Sorry, but given the protests themselves, the current climate calls for a higher than usual standard for substantiation of claims by random blog commenters.

stop_the_stutter said...

Ha! The party of "No!"

Don't like it when the shoe's on the other foot, do ya! 2001-2007 - who was the party of "No!"?

I bet the lefties didn't think they were the party of "No!". I'd venture to guess that they just didn't agree with the bilge coming out of congress.

Geoff said...

But the real upside to the protests is that they perpetuate misinformation about the Democrats' bills. Forget the birthers -- I want to know how many Americans believe in the "death panels". (I also want to know whether Chuck Grassley, since he seems to be one of them, would accept the following trade: Democrats will drop the "death panels" if you'll drop your opposition to the public option.)

Nate - how about dealing REALISTICALLY with the "comparative research" panel that will lay out "guidelines" for doctors which will be enforced thru medicare payments?

you're being silly.

Read Dr. E. Emanuel - he clearly states his position in Jan 09 re "communitarianism" in health care rationing - meaning those not "productive" to society get less care.

That is Obama's health care advisor and the lead guy on the "comparative effectiveness" panels.

If Obama didn't agree with those views, why did he apoint E. Emanuel?

Blogger Zahlman said...

Geoff: Who the fuck are you, and why do you have *any* credibility? Give me a reason not to believe you're pulling numbers out of your ass. Sorry, but given the protests themselves, the current climate calls for a higher than usual standard for substantiation of claims by random blog commenters.

My numbers are gallup and ras - not mine, but theirs.

my credibility is irrelevant - the facts i point out are all that matter.

clearly, the public aint with your leftist spin on the protesters - what are you going to do about it? Pout and scream about me being bad?
its just a fact, man.

gallup today:


Town Hall Meetings Generate Interest, Some Sympathy
August 12, 2009
More than two-thirds of Americans (69%) are closely following news accounts of protests at town hall meetings on healthcare reform. While 34% say the protests make them more sympathetic to the protestors’ viewpoints, 21% say less sympathetic; 36% say they haven’t affected their views either way.
Amid Debate, Obama Approval Rating on Healthcare Steady
August 12, 2009
More Americans disapprove (49%) than approve (43%) of Barack Obama’s handling of healthcare policy, hardly changed from views expressed in mid-July. Americans are evenly divided on his handling of the economy and give him more positive than negative marks on foreign affairs and education.

ras today:

Public support for the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low as just 42% of U.S. voters now favor the plan. That’s down five points from two weeks ago and down eight points from six weeks ago.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that opposition to the plan has increased to 53%, up nine points since late June.

More significantly, 44% of voters strongly oppose the health care reform effort versus 26% who strongly favor it. Intensity has been stronger among opponents of the plan since the debate began.

Sixty-seven percent (67%) of those under 30 favor the plan while 56% of those over 65 are opposed. Among senior citizens, 46% are strongly opposed.

Predictably, 69% of Democrats favor the plan, while 79% of Republicans oppose it. Yet while 44% of Democratic voters strongly favor the reform effort, 70% of GOP voters are strongly opposed to it.
Most notable, however, is the opposition among voters not affiliated with either party. Sixty-two percent (62%) of unaffiliated voters oppose the health care plan, and 51% are strongly opposed. This marks an uptick in strong opposition among both Republicans and unaffiliateds, while the number of strongly supportive Democrats is unchanged.

Mike in Maryland said...

Geoffy?

So what if 22% of the respondents were AAs?

What was the weighting given to that 22% of respondents who were AAs?

Since AAs comprise about 11% of the population, and approximately the same per cent of the voting public AND since the poll was actually conducted by Opinion Research (a polling form that is less politically oriented than, let's say, RASMUSSEN), do you think Opinion Research would very prominently announce that the poll included "an oversample of African-Americans" without adjusting that back down to the actual per cent of population and/or voting population?

If Opinion Research wanted to move the numbers in the poll, they wouldn't have announced such oversampling, don't you think?

And did Opinion Research tell us if it was intentional or just happenstance? Since they didn't state it was intentional, it most likely was happenstance.

So who is taking nothing into account except the ONLY facts that support their position, then accusing someone else of a 'FAIL'?

As to your assertion that this is "a center right country", can you explain this:

1. Will you dispute that McLameBrain ran as a much more conservative candidate than Barack Obama in 2008?

2. Will you dispute that most GOOPers accused McLameBrain of being too liberal in his 2008 campaign?

3. If the more liberal candidate was elected to the Presidency, doesn't that mean that the 'too liberal' (but still conservative) McLameBrain's loss at least puts a dent, if not completely destroying, in your "This is a center right country" meme?

Point 1 will be very difficult for you to dispute. Point 2 will be even more difficult for you to dispute.

Ergo, point 3 is proven by your lack of ability to dispute points 1 and 2.

This is NOT a center right country. YOU deal with it.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

stop_the_stutter said...

Mike in Maryland is an ad-homonym douchebag. Very easy to skip over his tripe.

Glad to see America isn't willing to be a Borg collective in terms of it's health care system! There's hope yet.

Geoff said...

Mike in Maryland said...

Geoffy?

So what if 22% of the respondents were AAs?

What was the weighting given to that 22% of respondents who were AAs?

Since AAs comprise about 11% of the population, and approximately the same per cent of the voting public AND since the poll was actually conducted by Opinion Research (a polling form that is less politically oriented than, let's say, RASMUSSEN), do you think Opinion Research would very prominently announce that the poll included "an oversample of African-Americans" without adjusting that back down to the actual per cent of population and/or voting population?

If Opinion Research wanted to move the numbers in the poll, they wouldn't have announced such oversampling, don't you think?

GOOD point but show me any CNN link saying they adusted back the sample. CNN approval for obama is also an outlier. sorry, but gallup and ras agree and only the CNN poll is an outlier - why would you assume the oversample ISNT the reason?


And did Opinion Research tell us if it was intentional or just happenstance? Since they didn't state it was intentional, it most likely was happenstance.

So who is taking nothing into account except the ONLY facts that support their position, then accusing someone else of a 'FAIL'?

no, they dont disclose anything.
Why shouldnt i question a poll that is an outlier for both obama approval AND obamacare?

As to your assertion that this is "a center right country", can you explain this:

1. Will you dispute that McLameBrain ran as a much more conservative candidate than Barack Obama in 2008?

2. Will you dispute that most GOOPers accused McLameBrain of being too liberal in his 2008 campaign?

3. If the more liberal candidate was elected to the Presidency, doesn't that mean that the 'too liberal' (but still conservative) McLameBrain's loss at least puts a dent, if not completely destroying, in your "This is a center right country" meme?

Point 1 will be very difficult for you to dispute. Point 2 will be even more difficult for you to dispute.

Ergo, point 3 is proven by your lack of ability to dispute points 1 and 2.

This is NOT a center right country. YOU deal with it.

RE #1
No.
Not much more conservative - in the election, Obama was just slightly left of center and McCain was just slightly right of center.
Governing, of course, Obama has been far to the left so far. That's why his popularity is eroding.

RE #2

No.
Most GOP'ers did accuse McCain of this.
I think it was a mistake for McCain to dismiss his original people re Mike Murphy et al.
C'est la vie - his mistake. Nothing to do with now.

RE #3

No.
Obama campaigned as a centrist JUST left of center.
He is governing as a strong leftist without bipartisan support.

Obamacare's approval in the low 40's --- Obama's overall approval will join those numbers unless he surrenders and backs off of the public option.

i know you cant admit it to yourself yet, but the "AGE OF OBAMA" peaked and crested in July 2009 and now we're in an age of centrism - just like Clinton.

Mike in Maryland said...

stop_the_stutter?

Want to answer for Geoffy the last three questions I asked?

Were those the questions that punched a nerve, and you had to pipe up?

I'm curious how a wingnut will try to honestly answer point 1 and point 2 without validating point 3. It might be possible, but I don't see how.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

jfruh said...

"(I also want to know whether Chuck Grassley, since he seems to be one of them, would accept the following trade: Democrats will drop the "death panels" if you'll drop your opposition to the public option.) "

Ha, what a clever idea! Use all the lunatic phantoms of the right as bargaining chips. "OK, look, if you sign off on health care reform, we'll get rid of the Death Panels AND we'll show you Obama's birth certificate!"

shiloh said...

stop_the_stutter said...

Mike in Maryland is an ad-homonym douchebag. Very easy to skip over his tripe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


stop, thanx for sharing and nice job skipping over Mike in Maryland's tripe. ;)

take care

Geoff said...

Mike in Maryland said...

stop_the_stutter?

Want to answer for Geoffy the last three questions I asked?

Were those the questions that punched a nerve, and you had to pipe up?

I'm curious how a wingnut will try to honestly answer point 1 and point 2 without validating point 3. It might be possible, but I don't see how.

i did answer your questions.

why are you so hateful?

Wolf of Aquarius said...

For those concerned about health care being rationed, health care is rationed right now. It is rationed by wealth. Is this really just? Is it Christian?

The USA is the only industrialized society not even attempting to provide equal access to health care for its citizens. This seems strange to me since the USA is 80% Christian and Jesus focused on healing the poor and the sick.

I am not a socialist and believe that hard work and innovation should be rewarded. But I also believe that there are basic human rights to food, basic shelter, and decent health care.

If you remember the second presidential debate, Obama said that health care is a "right" while McCain said it is a "privilege". I wonder what the majority of Americans believe.

stop_the_stutter said...

Very simple.
Incumbent party's president had an approval rating in the mid to upper 20's. The election was suprisingly close given that his numbers. Why would nearly twice the percentage who approved of Bush, vote for his very same party? Maybe because the alternative was a guy whose agenda celebrates mediocrity?

Under your logic, NEW JERSEY is now a right of center state because they seem to be favoring a Republican candidate for governor.

Letter said...

Mike in Md...um, would you ever consider cooling it on the random ALLCAPS!!1!, GOOP, and silly nicknames for a little while. It's like you're doing everything in your power to be dismissed as the left leaning version of PeteKent/Mule Rider/random radical fundamentalist loony tune. Which is a shame, because if you would just be willing to act as a grownup every once and so often, people might find your enthusiasm helpful to the debate in contrast to the more analytical voices in the comment sections, instead of pure partisan noise.

And um, yeah, America is a center-right, corporatist country. That includes Obama. And that's just fine.

There's just been such a soulcrushing bastardization of classical conservative ideals in the Republican Party in favor of nativist, fundamentalist radicalism and bigotry that we forget what the "center" really should look like if our country wasn't such a mess. If you want real leftist politics, go to Europe, because you won't find any here. In the US, "left" isn't really left, and "right" isn't really sane.

Mike in Maryland said...

Geoffy?

Nice try, but complete FAIL.

IF this country is center right (implying that the majority of voters actually ARE center right), why didn't the majority of voters vote for the more conservative candidate? After all, you all but admit that McLameBrain WAS the more conservative candidate.

After all, how many months did the GOOPers call Obama a Commie? A Marxist? Tell the populace he 'palled around with terrorists'? Tell us that since he sat in the pews of Reverend Wright's church "for 20 years" (and show out of context clips of Reverend Wright's speeches), he totally agreed with Reverend Wright's views? Tell us that supporters of Barack Obama were not REAL Americans? Etc., etc., etc. Do you think that after all those lies, people wouldn't at least get the idea that maybe Obama was 'running a stealth campaign with false promises', and would actually move to the left after the election if he won it?

One other point - Didn't the GOOPers tell us time and again that Obama was more liberal than Ted Kennedy?

Nice try, Geoffy, but classic FAIL.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

Geoff said...

Letter said...

Mike in Md...um, would you ever consider cooling it on the random ALLCAPS!!1!, GOOP, and silly nicknames for a little while. It's like you're doing everything in your power to be dismissed as the left leaning version of PeteKent/Mule Rider/random radical fundamentalist loony tune. Which is a shame, because if you would just be willing to act as a grownup every once and so often, people might find your enthusiasm helpful to the debate in contrast to the more analytical voices in the comment sections, instead of pure partisan noise.

And um, yeah, America is a center-right, corporatist country. That includes Obama. And that's just fine.

There's just been such a soulcrushing bastardization of classical conservative ideals in the Republican Party in favor of nativist, fundamentalist radicalism and bigotry that we forget what the "center" really should look like if our country wasn't such a mess. If you want real leftist politics, go to Europe, because you won't find any here. In the US, "left" isn't really left, and "right" isn't really sane.


while i disagree with your conclusions, i respect your ability to recognize reality.

i'd like to know, however, why you think right of center governance is bad?
in specificity.

just wondering.

and why is divided governmetn bad?

i like pres one party congress the other.

they check each other, make sure neither can steal too too much from us usually, right? unless one side weakened too much - which is what happened in bush's last two years.

Geoff said...

Mike in Maryland said...

Geoffy?



Nice try, but complete FAIL.

IF this country is center right (implying that the majority of voters actually ARE center right), why didn't the majority of voters vote for the more conservative candidate? After all, you all but admit that McLameBrain WAS the more conservative candidate.


cmon man, you're being silly. McCain was a very unattractive candidate (old, wrinkly, mean looking white man) and Obama was very attractive (new, fun, cool, black guy badass like a politician Will Smith)

that's why obama won - and because obama said he was a centrist.

Obama has proven that to be a lie now with obamacare - and we'll see where we go from here.

its a fun historical time to be alive, exciting!

Mike in Maryland said...

Letter?

If my occasional ALL UPPER CASE words offend you, then just skip over my messages. That way (because you are not reading my posts), you won't get offended by my occasional ALL UPPER CASE words in my messages.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

Geoff said...

Mike in Maryland said

...

Letter?

If my occasional ALL UPPER CASE words offend you, then just skip over my messages. That way (because you are not reading my posts), you won't get offended by my occasional ALL UPPER CASE words in my messages.

Mike in Maryland


dude, you might be a complete and total douchebag.

hateful dbags like you cause people who could agree on stuff in politics to hate each other.

we could have a nice bipartisan plan to cover the 20 million who are actually uninsured long term if the radical leftists would just freaking chill out about socialized health care.

BIG BIG sigh.

Wolf of Aquarius said...

For those saying that Obama promised to be centrist and is now acting like a leftist, were you paying attention AT ALL during the campaign? Obama is enacting his campaign promises, pure and simple. He said he would reform health care with a public option. He said he would spend more on infrastructure. He said he would make the tax system more progressive. Perhaps what is irksome to those on the Right is that Obama has been so successful in making good on his promises.

Mike in Maryland said...

Geoffy?

Who has asserted that they are OR are not in favor of split governance on this thread (besides you)?

Since you can't argue with facts to buttress your points, you are putting up typical TROLL straw man arguments, hoping to distract us from the topic of this discussion, which is polls are not showing much, if any, additional backing for continuing the status quo on health insurance/health care.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

Nosimplehiway said...
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Eric said...

What I believe people are missing about these poll number is "how much of Obama's negative ratings come from the left?" Some of these question might even have some significant 'not left enough' discomfort.

Mike in Maryland said...

Geoffy said...
the 20 million who are actually uninsured long term. . . .

And where did you pull that '20 million figure from?

It might be correct, but you don't want to back it up, do you?

If it IS true, then why are there so many reports that the US has an unemployed 25-29 million MORE than your 20 million long term unemployed? Those who were laid off? As if those laid off will NEVER have any medical needs while they are unemployed?

Too poor to have insurance? Are you completely heartless, and think that health care is an option, not a necessity?

And what do you propose to take care of 'just' the "20 million who are actually uninsured long term"?

No, Geoffy, the 'No! No! No!' mantra of the GOOPers is getting a bit tiresome to most Americans, and I encourage the Party of NO! to continue that tactic, as it will drive even more people away from the Party of NO!

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

slasher14 said...

Geoff: Based upon a handful of polls, you decide that the Age of Obama has peaked. I smell wishful thinking and nothing else. The fact remains that it is likely that some form of health care reform will pass -- although the chance of its being non-partisan are obviously small -- simply because it's in the interests of business as well as individuals.

The cost of health care insurance under the present system has risen to the point where businesses can no longer afford it, and their ability to foist the expenses off onto their employees has reached the point where THEY can't afford to take on any more. The drug industry didn't negotiate away 80 billion dollars because it decided last month that Americans need a break. It's looking at a drop in demand, and decided to cut its losses. The hospitals and doctors are on board too, more or less, because they understand that the uninsured are costing them a lot of money and their ability to pass that cost on the insured (which is who is footing the bill now) has reached the breaking point. Even Walmart, hardly a liberal outfit, signed on for the employer mandate because it's cheaper in the long run than their trying to fund their own private plan. It is only the private insurance industry, which is fighting for its life, that is holding out.

We saw this same Astroturf hysteria over the stimulus package, over the Bush budget that was passed this spring, and over the Obama budget that passed after it. We had the tea party nonsense. In the end, it moved the resulting bills to the right, to be sure, but it didn't stop them. It didn't stop them because people in the country who do NOT have a political objective see the wisdom in them.

I think that regardless of whether or not we are a center-right nation, we are not an IDEOLOGICAL nation. And in the present war over health care, I think most people see that Obama really isn't being ideological, but is pushing his program for very pragmatic reasons -- reasons which resonate in their everyday lives. He has shown flexibility (more than suits MY taste, as a matter of fact) and he has given the Blue Dogs, who are center right if they are anything at all, more than enough voice in the matter. It is only the hard right that has been shut out of the process, and is behind the sturm and drang.

And there's a reason for that, which I think every non-hard-right American knows. The hard right has no interest in compromise because its agenda is ideological and Obama dealt it a severe blow in 2008. They're out for revenge and to prepare the way for a return to power in the future, and don't give a fuck about whether or not health care passes or works, just as they didn't give a fuck if states and cities had to lay off thousands of teachers and cops without the stimulus bill.

People on the center right know this. They have almost no avenue to express that sentiment, because they are truly concerned with the welfare of the country and thus aren't out to shout down anybody but to work out solutions. They're waiting to see what the specific of the program will be, at which time they'll be on board with most of them.

The Astroturf rightists have been able to co-opt the center of attention because they have no POSITIVE agenda, and thus are freed from engaging in dialogue. This produces the appearance of center right concensus but in fact it is nothing of the kind.

Nosimplehiway said...

Really good ideas can easily just fade away into the labyrinth of congressional committees or get watered down into worthlessness if citizens who more or less support the plan, but are not political junkies, become disengaged.

Those marginal supporters will not stay engaged if the press moves on to other gravely important topics, like immigration, Obama's birth certificate, Miley Cyrus's pole dancing or who's ahead on America's Got Talent. Never underestimate the power of a shiney object to distract the press from a substantive story. This is why Obama was pressing congress to work fast, to keep the momentum going.

But in a stroke of Democratic luck, as long as a few visually sympathetic Dems (Claire McCaskill looks like a bake sale mom straight from central casting and Arlen Specter is an 80 year old cancer survivor) are getting berated by people who just plain look mean, scary and deranged, it's all good. Most Americans can't name Senators by face, even their own Senators. They just see, as they are flipping through the channels looking for Sandra Rinamoto explaining real estate to househunters in Toronto, some very sympathetic, vulnerable looking people getting yelled at by crazy eyed conservatives most people would rather not sit next to on an airplane. Those viewrs will then stick around to watch the outcome. This is called a ratings maker and it keeps the press, and therefore the public, focused on the issue of healthcare.

The people who are sympathetic the screaming crowds and the tearful testifying (in the altar call, not legal sense) were never going to support anything Obama does, anyway. So, the Dems should just calmly counter the lies and move on.

Independents will shift around a bit, here and there, but independents are notoriously fickle... thus the name Independent... and only about 8%ish of the population are true, persuadable independents anyway. The rest are strong leaners who can't be persuaded either way.

As a happy side effect to all this tzimmes, the GOP stirring the pot and telling lies gives the Dems the perfect excuse to cut bait and move on from bi-partisanship, which was always just the GOP demanding the right to water down a bill, not vote for it, take credit for it if it did something popular, but rebuke it if it did something unpopular. (eg the stimulus) Forget the GOP, they're irrelevant. Forget the most conservative 40% of the country, they will never vote Dem and are therefore irrelevant. Focus on the 50%+1 necessary to pass meaningful healthcare reform.

PS: Here's a personal plug for Medicare For All. Simple, direct removal of the minimum age creates single payer in what could be a one page bill. The simpler the bill, the fewer crazy theories and rumors can grow from it. Plus, attacking the plan would require attacking Medicare, one of the sacred cows of pretty much everyone who has ever watched Matlock. (The medicare portion of FICA would have to increase to approximately 10%, half paid by employee, half by employer, but that's a heckuva lot cheaper than private premiums. More precise numbers upon the slightest whiff of a request... this is what people who majored in public administration do when we can't sleep. Normal people count sheep, policy geeks scan BLS, HHS and census data.)

Geoff said...

Eric said...

What I believe people are missing about these poll number is "how much of Obama's negative ratings come from the left?" Some of these question might even have some significant 'not left enough' discomfort.

Well, here's one breakdown.

Independents' ratings on each of the issues fall between those of the other two party groups, but closer to Republicans' than to Democrats' ratings, and do not reach the majority level on any issue.

obama apprval 43 - disapproval 49

dem approval 77
ind approval 35
gop approval 10

gallup doesnt break out disapproval like this. i expect independents must be at leastin the high 50's to get a 49 number overall disapproval with 77% dem approval.


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Letter said...

Sheesh, it's a regular Algonquin round table up in here...

I'm glad to see the point was lost on you, Mike. It's your PARTY and you'll CRY if you want to, if only those SOOPER GOOPers would just get out of your way! Until then, what GREAT NEWS FOR JOHN McLAME!!1!11! (Do you get it, Mc...LAME? Hi-larious.)

geoff, you're wrong. Obama isn't moving left, like at all. He's doing exactly what he said he would do (with the obvious exceptions of executive power, etc. where he apparently just lied his ass off during the campaign, which is disheartening). He's a center-right corporatist with an instinct for compromise above all else. Which, to repeat, is fine, it's what makes him so mainstream despite the radical right's paranoid and hateful histrionics. If anything, died-in-the-wool liberals are the ones who should have the biggest bone to pick with Obama so far. I have no doubt he'll get his bills delivered eventually, I just wonder whether or not they'll be any good, and if not, when he'll finally decide to stop playing so nice and go to the mattresses on the things that need reforming most. We shall see.

jrubinstein said...

Nate Silver wrote "At the end of the day, health care reform is liable to succeed or fail based on the extent to which Americans -- and the Congressmen they elect -- are informed about the true nature of the bills pending before the House and Senate."

That may be true of the passage or non-passage of legislation. But the real success or failure of health care reform is not whether a bill passes, it is that the bill calls for workable policies that achieve the goals of universal, continuous, affordable coverage, that provides sustainability in the long term, and health care that is effective, efficient, safe, timely, patient-centered and equitable.

If Congress passes a good bill, health care reform will succeed. If Congress passes a bad bill, the "reform" will be a failure.

Mike in Maryland said...

slasher14 said...
the private insurance industry, which is fighting for its life

Slasher,

I would add just one small addendum to your comment that insurance is "fighting for its life".

Insurance is not 'fighting for its life', but 'fighting for the ability to keep increasing it's profits'.

After all, not a single one of the bills in Congress right now even contemplates eliminating the ability of private insurance companies to stay alive. To the contrary, all the bills actually recognize the importance of private insurance companies, but all the bills, in one way or another, DO add to the choices that a consumer might have in picking another insurance company - you know that competition standard that all CONs, Wall Streeters, et al, tell us is the backbone of capitalism?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

slasher14 said...

Mike: Your point is technically correct, of course, but I think the insurance companies know full well that a public option will marginalize them in less than a generation. There will always be a role for private health care insurance -- I'm on Medicare and I have it, as do many who live in single payer countries -- but the present "our way or the highway" system is toast if the public option passes, and they know it.

This is what I was trying to say. You're technically correct to say that it's profits, and not their lives, that are at stake. But Ayn Rand wrote -- I'm paraphrasing here -- "your money or your life is tautological." I think most of those who run the insurance industry agree with that belief.

Mike in Maryland said...

Geoffy?

Want to tell us where you got that "obama apprval [sic] 43 - disapproval 49" figure from?

Going to Pollster.com, the WORST poll for President Obama I could find (a Rasmussen poll that is on the far right of the graph [meaning one of the most recent polls]) listed:
Obama approval 48 - disapproval 51. That is quite different from your 43-49 approval/disapproval 'citation'.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

Don said...

I find it amusing that folks complain about "rationed healthcare", but have not figured out that is the same as "limited". And that "not rationed" is "unlimited".

What would my dream "unlimited healthcare" plan be...
* team of specialists follows me everywhere I go, just in case.
* 3 personal air ambulances (2 are spares) follow me around.
* I'd have personal emergency clinics in places I frequent.
* I'd have everyone pre-checked for a match to be an organ donor to me.
* In the event of pending mortality, it would cover the cost of all items on my bucket list.


That said, I still favor a voucher system for medicare/medicaid. Any true capitalist would surely agree. It would be great fun to see the ads on daytime TV. "Send your voucher to Dr. Don's HealthInc and you'll get a free big screen TV!! If you call in the next 30 minutes, I'll double it and you'll get 2 big screen TVs!!!"

But seriously, has any giant debate ever had so many pages of legislation and so few specifics. What's really going on??

--Don

slasher14 said...

Nate: lighten up on Obama and the liberals as the problem in getting across health care reform. Look, the drug industry, the AMA, and even corporations like Walmart have essentially given the green light to reform. They aren't doing this out of love; they're doing it because their bottom lines will be helped out, in the long run, and they know it.

The problem, right now, is that the center right voices which support such a bill are silent -- partly because they don't HAVE a specific bill to speak in favor of, and also partly because they fear that the radical right might just be able to use this fracas to return to power. People in the boardrooms of the country remember when the Republicans ran Congress and lobbyists had to support to the hard right's agenda or lose access. Corporations remember that Karl Rove got attorneys general fired who didn't toe the line -- attorneys general can make life hell for corporations. THEY ARE AFRAID. And they're not afraid of Obama, because he hasn't demonstrated either the will or the ability to fuck up their day because they didn't get with the program.

This wouldn't matter much if we had a specific bill on the table and the hard right lies about it could be easily deflected. But, of course, the bill's shape will be determined NOW, while the center right voices are silent, and so that fear is having a very strong effect.

But it's not Obama's fault, nor is it the fault of the liberals. It's the fault of those in the center who know what needs to be done, and aren't speaking out.

So far.

Mike in Maryland said...

slasher14,

You are correct, but why hand ammunition to the other side when it's not necessary. After all, they'll find some way to turn your gift (your truthfullness) right back on you if they find the opportunity.

Even if your truthfullness just stated one of the memes of the "We're a Capitalist Country" wingnutters that competition has winners and losers, and the losers go out of business (unless they can blame that business going out of business on 'the Commies', 'the Socialists', or whatever the meme of the day is for describing the Democratic Party). Look at how they said that if Chrysler and GM couldn't conduct their business in a profitable manner, they should go down the drain, but as soon as it was proposed (by those same corporations) that some of the dealers for those corporations would be forced out of their franchises, they screamed that it was the fault of the Democrats, or more specifically 'that damn Obama'. Funny thing is that if GM and/or Chrysler HAD gone out of business, ALL the dealers for one or both of those corporations would have gone out of business. But according to the 'pure capitalists', that's the way the ball bounces.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/0284889341225109596

Lynne said...

Geoff,

Your ridiculous claims about Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel have already been debunked in Time Magazine. Read it and weep:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915835,00.html

Les said...

Geoff said... "Read Dr. E. Emanuel - he clearly states his position in Jan 09 re "communitarianism" in health care rationing - meaning those not "productive" to society get less care. That is Obama's health care advisor and the lead guy on the "comparative effectiveness" panels. If Obama didn't agree with those views, why did he apoint E. Emanuel?"

You're talking about the Jan 09 Lancet article co-written by Dr. Emanuel. That article is clearly limited to discussing how to think about fairly allocating extremely scarce, physical resources. Specifically, he's talking about organ transplants, and not generically the rationing of basic health care, as you would imply.

And because you're not stupid, you obviously read the article and KNOW THAT to be the case. Sir, your credibility is waning.

PorridgeGun said...

Americans Sour on The Quitter

A new CNN/Opinion Research poll finds that just 39% have a favorable opinion of Sarah Palin, down seven points from a poll conducted in May, and it's also nine points lower than the 48% who now say they now view Palin unfavorably.


"A 39 percent favorable rating makes it that much tougher for Palin to become president should she decide to run in 2012. Her favorable rating is almost identical to the numbers that former vice president Dan Quayle got just after leaving office in 1993," says Holland.

Quayle formally declared himself a presidential candidate in 1994 but withdrew from the race in 1995.


http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/08/12/americans_sour_on_palin.html

markymark said...

An important thing to remember right now is that there is not one bill at the moment, so defending the bill is difficult, as it doesn't exist quite yet. That makes the disinformation campaign easier for now. The teabaggers pretty much have the field right now. I think one of the problems some of the pols are having at the moment is that it's hard to defend such a fuzzy, ill defined set of proposals.

Now when a bill comes together and some of the disinformation is conclusively shot down, I think people will be happy with the outcomes.

PorridgeGun said...

BTW, why do people cite Rasmussen numbers on anything, especially policy? That idiot had Obama in the mid fifties when every other national poll had him at 68%. In the absense of Zogby, Rasmussen has become ridiculous.


Also, isn't it a tad suspicious that the same pollster who's notorious for propping up The Quitter hasn't polled her favorability in recent weeks? I mean, everybody else has. Has Rasmussen got his tongue so far up the FReeptard's arses that he can't bring himself to conduct a poll?

Hu Chi said...

markymark

Good point. This may be a good time to hear nut jobs shrieking about imaginary problems with a bill that doesn't exist, since no one really has to defend it on those terms.

Meanwhile Obama's demeanor contrasts nicely with that of the crazed meeting crashers.

Newt's claim last week was that because the "bill" was over a thousand pages long, nobody could really know what was in it. From that he implied that if he said that the bill would require doctors to wear blindfolds, who could say otherwise?

Pretty funny logic, and he's a fool to use such an argument, but it sort of underscores your point that any argument over details at this point is premature.

Obama's proven himself the master of the rope-a-dope. Teabaggers, swing away.

markymark said...

porridge gun,
becuase they are Republicans and are looking for the most favourable possible survey to quote from. We all know the game, and we all know to take Ras with a pinch of salt. Incidentally, has anyone else noticed just how much polling Ras has been doing on the health care issue recently? I wonder if we would be seeing as much of it if the polls were going the other way on the issue?

markymark said...

Hu Chi, Gingrich is certainly turning into a kind of Limbaugh with a brain type persona. I am begining to phase him out to be honest. I think he is too much of a partisan to be taken seriously as an intellectual thinker. (By that I mean too in the pocket of one party, rather than his own intellectual honesty, I would make the same criticism of a Democrat becoming a pseudo expert on everything). But he kind of makes my point for me.

I sort of think of it like a down at football. At the moment we're seeing all the blocking and hitting at the line of scrimmage. I don't think personally we have yet seen the GOP make an argument against the Democratic plans that breaks through the line to really preassurise QB Obama, and I think there are plenty of plays that Obama and the Democrats can make at the moment. Patience people patience, that is what will get the health bill passed eventually.

pgocosmic said...

Nice commentary - with one glaring exception. the protests have almost NOTHING to do with health care.

The crazed wing nuts are the same crowd who yelled "kill the terrorist" at the Palin hatefests.

They have a world view, like the quitter, that god has anointed them as true white 'mericans to rule the world. All the noise is about taking back their country from a dark skinned foreigner.

If there were town hall meetings about energy policy, they would show up screaming that Obama, the Nazi, is planning to burn their grannys as bio fuel.

GROG said...

Hey PorridgeGun.

Rasmussen was the most accurate pollster in the presidential race. Gallup was the worst. I know that's a hard fact swallow.

If I understand the anti-Ras crowd, he lied about his polling numbers leading up to the election and then changed them closer to the election. So all along he knew the exact amount by which Obama was going to win. Wow. That's a smart pollster.

Gallup missed badly in favor of Obama, yet myseriously no one on here bashes Gallup for being having a left wing bias. I wonder what the left would have done if Ras was as bad as Gallup, only in favor of McCain.

GROG said...

@pgocosmic:

As a conservative, witnessing the complete meltdown of the left regarding the town hall meetings is sad yet quite satisfying. Your hate filled and ridiculous comments do nothing but reinforce that.

The Democratic party used to be for the common man. It's turned into an angry elitist party that does nothing but sling insults in an attempt to try to shut people up.

markymark said...

GROG, I hear what your saying. But its all down to what we around here call a 'house effect'. Rasmussen has a conservative bias. Nate doesn't just pick stuff like that up out of thin air. Its calculated through masses of polling information and the such like.

Now it is true that in Presidential elections Rasmussen has a pretty good record, come a final poll. Noone is denying that. But its interesting that Rasmussen's final poll movements tended to be a swing towards Obama, suggesting perhaps that Rasmussen was trying to suggest McCain had a larger amount of support, and was not out of the election. And taking a long view of the polling, of the trackers, my memory, without checking figures, is that Gallup had a gap of between 7 and 10 points as a rough average, and Ras had a gap of between 3 and 5. From that stance, Gallup appears more accurate.

However, what we are talking about in these polls is not the same thing as comparing Presidential election polls. At the end of an election, there is a definite result, therefore it is easy enough to compare the result with the polls. In other words there is no value in Rasmussen releasing poll after poll with McCain leading by 10, and then seeing Obama win by 7. So accuracy in election polling, 1 is eventually measurable and 2 therefore needs to be accurate.

When polling these issue based polls different parameters come in. There is no final judgement about how popular healthcare reform is, so there is less pressure for a particular polling company to produce accurate polling, so the house effect is going to come into play more. The important thing then is to try and pick up whether or not a particular polling company tends to be an outlier. On healthcare reform, Rasmussen has tended to be an outlier, giving at least slightly more anti healthcare reform numbers than almost all other pollsters.

I can best show Ras's conservative bias by showing you Real Clear Politics aggregate of recent Obama job approval numbers. Ras is 5 points below the RCP average of approval and 12 points below the average of dissaproval.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html

Amongst the reasons for a house effect being more likely in these sorts of polls is that the pollster has less pressure to gain a completely representative sample, and also its easier to formulate a question more likely to get the response you want.

Now to show Rasmussen's house bias on healthcare take these top line questions from there most recent healthcare poll
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/toplines/pt_survey_toplines/august_2009/toplines_health_care_august_7_8_2009

Now take the 1st question, on the face of it a very straightforward question. But here is the level of thought that goes into a question like that, do we put support or oppose first. Interestingly in a bipolar question like this, the respondents impulse in a phone poll is to go with the second option, your brain not quite sure what the first choice represents. Also note the use of the term 'federal government', the federal government tends to score badly in these kinds of polls.

The second question has a longer lead in, the choices come later in the question. Notice here, the anti healthcare choice is first. With the longer lead in, there is more of a propensity to choose the first response. (Your brain has tuned in to the question better).

But the most interesting thing about the last 2 questions is that they are asking for opinions about something for which 1 most respondents are not at all experts in, and 2 will have a definite answer for later. They are not opinion questions in the truest sense of the word. They are interesting questions if you are trying to work out a message and need to understand what mis conceptions people have about a policy, but they are otherwise fairly meaningless. So what if 52% if people think a single payer system will lead to a lower quality of care? It really means nothing.

Richard said...

I think the main thing that the protests have accomplished is that the Democrats are less likely to use the reconciliation process to pass a bill. For, if they do, they will confirm the protesters' biggest fears--that the Democrats are only interested in power. The Democrats who will have to run in close elections in 2010 will have a huge problem if they pass a health care reform bill via reconcilliation.

What I think will happen is that a compromise bill will emerge out of the Senate Finance Committee that will not have a "public option." It will be interesting what will happen then. My gut tells me that Obama will push hard for the compromise bill, even though his base supporters won't be happy, because he needs to have a health care reform bill passed, any bill, to show he has accomplished something.

Matthew said...

Does anyone (if not I'd love to see Nate examine this) have any information on the relative spending on advertising recently on the health care debate. I'm just curious because I've seen plenty of adds from 60plus but few from the other side.

markymark said...

My point GROG I guess, is that on this site, especially this site, people know about polling. We know that Rasmussen has a conservative house effect and yes we know that gallup has a more liberal house effect.

Just for comparison by the way, here is what Quinnipiac asked on a government option for health care, in a poll released last week.

*Do you support or oppose giving people the option of being covered by a government health insurance plan that would compete with private plans?

62% supported the proposition in the question there, compared to 32% in the question in the Ras poll I linked to above.

Juris said...

Blocking legislative action doesn't require a majority in opposition. It just needs a coalition of minorities -- that is, a sufficient number of individuals each of whom opposed the legislaton for his or her own reason.

I think that's what a couple of the polls might be showing: that the protestors bring up enough separate and distinct reasons to oppose the plan each of which resonates with a segment of the wider electorate that support for the general idea of health care reform gets beaten by the sum of the intense opposition to many of the specific elements of the plan.

I have to think that not all of the reasons in opposition generate much sympathy in the wider public, however. And that the more outlandish some of the claims are -- or the protestors are ("Have YOU read the Koran, Senator Spector?") -- then the more the protestors are seen as kooks.

Wayward Son said...

Talk about a badly-designed poll.. or perhaps, a poll with well-designed flaws intended to reach a specific conclusion.

Let's say you were completely against the teabaggers from the start. The correct answer to this poll would be the middle option, 'unchanged'. You are still completely against them. But USA Today presents that option in the same vein as 'no opinion/DNK' would be in an approval poll.

The anger and shouting from teabaggers (and a few LaRouchies who crawled out of the woodwork) will, in the end, simply harden the resolve of some Democratic Congressmen to see it through. They might respond to money, but they don't respond to threats.

Milltycoon said...

@Geoff--

Good lord, Geoff! I don't make too many posts attempting to restore some amount of sanity here, but I read through this posts' comments, and... Here we go.

1. Tell me the things McCain ran "just slightly Right of center on" during his campaign. He toed the Conservative line on every social issue I can think of. He was a hawk on Iran. He lurched to the Right on immigration. He sought John Hagee's endorsement. He voted against a bill which would have defined "enhanced interrogations" by the standards of the Army Field Manual. He proposed an 8-month government spending freeze in the middle of the recession. He supported making Bush's tax cuts permanent. He chose Sarah Palin. What was he moderate on? How was he different from what Fred Thompson or any other typical (not quite fully crazy) Conservative would have proposed? The myth of 2000 moderate John McCain has been thoroughly in the purview of the history books since about 2005.

2. Obama has governed as a radical leftist? On what policies? He has spent a lot of money, largely in an effort to rescue the economy from depression and to begin to rebuild the country after it was pillaged for 30 years by (mostly) Conservative greed and negligence. His efforts may fail, and may be misguided, but spending money on these issues (like modernizing infrastructure and making sure we still have a few industries running in the country) was his mandate. Otherwise, Obama is about as "leftist" as George H. W. Bush. He is against single payer health care, and does not even seem to be wed to a public option as a line in the sand. He increased the defense budget and troop levels in Afghanistan. He is against gay marriage. Again drug legalization. Not a strong proponent of EFCA. His cabinet is more than half full of corporatists, foreign policy hawks and Republicans. He refuses to investigate war crimes by the previous administration. He continues to try to work with Republicans to compromise his agenda, despite that their OBVIOUS goal is to weaken his policies, vote against them, destroy his presidency and then blame him for it. 42% of the stimulus bill he signed was in tax cuts. NIXON WAS PRACTICALLY FURTHER TO THE LEFT THAN OBAMA! What is this Conservative scare-myth of Obama as Black Panther Rosie O'Nader? It seriously undercuts the credibility of anything else you say.

Milltycoon said...

(Continued)--
3. The term "independents" is useless in this debate. Half the 'independents' in this country are soured Cheney Republicans who are disappointed with the Republican party for not being Conservative enough in 2005-2006. These are not the "moderate middle of the country centrist Independents" discussed by the worthless MSM. They are not in between the two parties. The Democrats range mostly from mainstream Left-Moderates to Center Right corporatists, the "Republican Party" is now an empty husk of Conservative craziness, and those people too ashamed of this empty husk to call themselves part of it (no one likes to be on the losing team, especially not when they have sold out all of their ideals) are a large percentage of the Independents. Obama isn't "losing them"--he never had them--they are just now expressing their fear and anger more loudly.

4. There IS divided government. While the Conservatives shout loudly from the Paranoid Greedy White Supremacist Fringe mental hospital on the edge of the page margin, the two "parties" fighting for power are the Blue Dogs (you mean to tell me that Evan Bayh and Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman and Mary Landrieu and Max Baucus are not as far Right as mainstream Republicans were just 25 years ago?) and the Democratic moderates (the Schumers and Durbins and Bidens of the party.) And as a third party, we have the occasional voice from the _actual Liberal Left_: Sanders, Feingold, Whitehouse, etc. This notion that the country would thrive if _this particular group of Kim Jong Ils known as the Republican Congressional lineup_ had the power to block Obama's agenda at every turn is preposterous. The entire government would shut down in a pitiful display of sideshows and gridlock. And Obama would ABSOLUTELY be impeached within 6 weeks. The only reasons you could be for this development are that a) you mythologize a template of both parties working together in good faith (and that is not the case here), b) you dislike Obama and/or the government in general so much that gridlock and dysfunction is a preferable goal for you.

Don said...

Amen to Nate's analysis. If Rahm and Axe would listen to Nate I think we could get this over in no time. Alas I've never known a political person to listen to anyone outside of their club.

kzinret said...

Three things Nate.
We are seeing the emergence of a new demographice...lets' call it the Teabagger demographic. These are the angry old white people and republican apparatchix that made up the teaparty protests last spring.
We all wondered what these people were protesting....now we know...a black president.
They are not actually protesting single-payer.....they are protesting Obamacare.
They are really protesting Obama, not heathcare reform.
Second, Obama is playing tit-for-tat.
He responds to disinformation with information, force-amplification with force amplification, astro-turfing with astro-proofing.
Tit-for-tat is unbeatable.
The last thing is the visual branding.
I think the MSM extreme coverage of the townhalls is not yet reflected in the polling. Mobs of angry crazy old white people screaming irrationally are simply not appealling in a reality tv sort of way. Americans like their reality tv stars to be attractive and young, like Spencer and Heidi.
Everyone loves their grandparents (especially sarah-when-facebookers-attack!-palin) but no one wants to see grandma and grandpa have psychotic episodes on live tv.
Everyone wants to go to cooltown...the townhalls are making it visually explicit you can't get there on the conservative express.

harold said...

Ironically, this is an issue where trying to be too "centrist" has hurt the Democrats quite badly.

I've always said that the solution to health care in this country is to give everyone Medicare, with the option of private insurance.

Before some fool argues that Medicare is "expensive", let me remind everyone that Medicare is far more efficient in terms of administration than private payers, and that Medicare already covers the sickest and oldest, and already pays in the range of a third or more of the medical bills in this country. So the incremental cost of expanding it to relatively healthy employed people is far less than the savings incurred by getting rid of premiums to private insurers.

Before someone points out that Medicare is imperfect, let me remind you that I am not arguing that it is perfect, and that private health insurance is often even more imperfect.

Of course someone incapable of logical reasoning will still start screaming that Medicare is "bankrupt" (logically impossible) or "out of control" (incorrect) and selectively listing ostensible flaws in Medicare. But at least I have already put up the rebuttals to those claims.

If the AMA objects strongly to that there are easy positive ways to bring them on board.

The insurance companies would go ballistic - since it would destroy them - but this strategy would be popular (even the protesters are on Medicare).

Unfortunately, what the Democrats are doing is making a show of some meaningless, insurance-company-loving "reforms", which I support while holding my nose in the hopes that this will be a weak catalyst for real reform some day in the future.

This doesn't mean that people will vote for right wing nutjobs in 2010 - it's too early to tell, but if the GOP aren't dominating at this exact minute, when their "advantage" is likely at a peak, that's a bad sign for them.

At this point, neither major party will take obvious, basic economic steps - expand already national health coverage program, gradually reduce excessive spending on conventional arms (while maintaining a "strong" military) to massively and relatively painlessly reduce deficit.

However, the Republicans remain fixated on an irrational right wing ideology, making it clear what the choice is.

Lehman said...

Interesting, but I am not sure what coverage you are watching because while CNN does describe the protests at the town hall meetings, they are mostly described as "Angry" "hysterical" "shouting matches" with a scattered "astroturf" "extreme right wing groups" thrown in. When they do act slightly sympathetic, it is only to discuss "misinformation" and how scared and uninformed the protesters are.

The media, with the exception of Fox News, describes these protests a possibly "organized" I don't really conclude that, but weren't they praising Obama for being an organizer last year. Aren't organized protests Ok, or are they only okay when the left does it? I don't recall much being said about the intimidation of the protesters by the SEIU thugs or the fact that Organizing for America (Obama's support group) is "organizing to go out and counter the protests.

The coverage has not been sympathetic or balanced. To say otherwise reveals your biases.

The problem is not how the Democrats message is not getting out, it is not the talking points and it is not that we are just to stupid to know what we need. It is that the bill wasn't read, wasn't debated, was pushed and rushed. It's opponents have been villified by elected officials as "Nazi-like" and "manufactured" and denigrated by the media as scared and uniformed. This is not the American way, and, for once, the middle class, which usually keeps its head down and goes to work is standing up and shouting "No YOU CAN'T!"

Lehman said...

And oneother thing: The recurrent use of the term "Teabagger" to describe the people who protest about the government misusing our hard-earned wages and throwing it hand over fist into the gaping maw of their pet projects is really insulting and shows that you have no interest in reasoned debate. And the fact that many at CNN and NBC have picked up such an offensive term to describe Americans expressing their freedom of speech shows their extreme bias for all things liberal.

If a GOP politicians took the swipes at The People that the Dems and the media are, they would be pilloried and shunned. It's okay, because it's okay to denigrate anything conservative. It is the last socially acceptable predjudice.

Gyrate said...

GROG: "As a conservative, witnessing the complete meltdown of the left regarding the town hall meetings is sad yet quite satisfying. Your hate filled and ridiculous comments do nothing but reinforce that.

The Democratic party used to be for the common man. It's turned into an angry elitist party that does nothing but sling insults in an attempt to try to shut people up."

I think you're getting your parties confused. The "angry" people having a "meltdown" who are doing "nothing but sling insults in an attempt to try to shut people up" are the FoxNews audience, who would do well to remember that, under the previous administration, they'd be shouting their protests from a "Free Speech Zone" half a mile down the street.

markymark said...

Lehman,

When Obama was being called an 'organiser' that was his job title, organising activities for disadvantaged communities on the South Side of Chicago. Thats a world away from this. (I'm not making a value judgement there, more pointing out that you have made a facile comparison that perhaps shows a lack of understanding of the nature of many of America's inner cities).

And what I have seen has looked pretty organised. First off, you have to know where to go. Where is my representative having a meeting, how many like minded friends can I take with me? Can we get in, or are we happy jeering and waving signs from the sidewalk etc etc. There is strong evidence that many of these protests have at least started from underground operations to disrupt these town halls. None of that is anything that is bad, necesarily. But what I have seen, at least on TV, have been outraged, often older, often confused, often under informed, citizens screaming and shouting. They are the Town Hall equivalents of the so called trolls that exist to disrupt internet conversations. (We've seen plenty of that kind of thing around here recently!)

I would personally suggest that the two are best dealt with in the same way. If they are prepared to debate, debate them. If not, pretty much ignore them.

I think their views would be taken more seriously if they seriously engaged in a debate, instead of screaming things like 'OBAMA SCARES ME' or 'THIS ISN'T THE AMERICA I GREW UP IN' or 'THEY WANT TO KILL ME BECAUSE I AM 70'. They seem to show a level of irrationality, that at least suggests that kzinret is correct and that race is at the heart of this.

I don't know how fair or balanced the reporting has been. What I think is interesting is that the reports that were circulating at the end of last week about violence being directed at these protestors seem to have quietened down. I would suggest that is evidence that the 'violence' has either stopped or was never a big deal.

I don't think the teabagger types have much of a strategy. I think its frustration at losing the election, and frustration at the other guys having the power. But I remember a similar feeling in 1993-4 and that dissapating eventually. I just hope we don't get anything the equivalent of the McVeigh bombings before we get to that point mind.

markymark said...

Oh and Lehman, I have perfect respect for Conservative prepared to debate and discuss. Thats not what these teabaggers are about.

Timetheos said...

"Good lord, Geoff! I don't make too many posts attempting to restore some amount of sanity..."

I don't think Geoff's agenda was to have a rational discussion.

Wayward Son said...

What could be wrong in describing a group of people who introduced themselves to the world by mailing teabags to Congress, waving teabags at protests, emblazoning posters with pictures of teabags, holding up teabags to the FoxNews cameras, and initially referring to themselves as 'teabaggers' before changing their mind (for some reason?).. as teabaggers.

I suppose some of them may, in retrospect, which they had selected a different word to be most closely identified with.. but what's done is done. They chose to be teabaggers.

Lehman said...

See, that's where you miss the comparisons about left wing protesters and right wing protesters: when left-wing protesters throw around things like "Bush is a war criminal" or "Free Guantanamo" or "Get out of Iraq NOW" it betrays the same amount of partisan, underinformed ridiculousness that you are purporting to be happening now. And, I am sorry, but my comparison is lass facile then you make it out to be, as President Obama, when he was a younger man, was deeply involved with making sure that underrepresented people have their say. Well, I feel that conservatives are underrepresented in the news media (not talk radio but the people who are supposed bring objective news) and are being ill served by their elected officials. So it is simliar, and not just in name.

And, once again, calling people exercising their free speech "teabaggers" shows that you are more interested in pithy soundbite insults then to truly understand what the tax protests are about. I always figured that to be liberal was to be open to other ideas, but lately it has been to be closed to anyone one's opinion but your own.

That ain't liberal, it is just another close-minded partisan atitude.

De Montfort said...

@Geoff

They all hold town halls and meet'n'greets in their districts during August. Go to any congressman's webpage and they'll show pictures of them(and mentions).

Gyrate said...

@ Lehman

...except that the people who objected to the war in Iraq because the reasons given for starting it were dubious were, in the end, proved entirely right. It's not partisan ridiculousness if you've got the facts on your side.

Of course, if America ends up a socialist country run by a Kenyan-born Muslim who is denying healthcare to the elderly and disabled, I'll be happy to admit I was wrong.

Ron40 said...

Many of the comments are suggestive that the town halls are some sort of national referendum. Face it. They are getting media play but they are a dog and pony show.

The decisions will be made by Congress in September and October, long after the drama of some nutty questions are forgotten.

Most Congressman and Congresswomen read. (Probably not all.) In a recent poll, 7% of Republicans believed that Hawaii WAS NOT A STATE. My guess - these are the same folks who show up at some of the town halls, with outrageously false claims, eagerly spouting the talking points they are provided.

Congress knows this. Understands this. The nut jobs at the town halls are being provided to much coverage by the media. But the long view strategy of the Obama administration -- give them enough rope and they will prove themselves ridiculous (Senator Grassley, welcome to your dog pile -- right here, label Death Panel) and then do the real work in September and October. All this fire and foment will be forgotten when a bill is passed this Fall. Those who wish to have actual impact should work to get the best bill possible passed and reconciled. The Town Halls are just circus.

Lehman said...

See, there you go. I wasn't referring to the starting of the the war, I was referring to the fools who thought we could simply up and leave with no consequences. You parse words and take the meaning of sentences that fit your purpose, and not in the context in which they were meant.

nice tactic. And to associate my comments with the "birther" nosense is very offensive. No matter where the guy was born, his mother was a citizen, so he is. End of story.

I am less concerned with his origins then I am with where he wants to take us. I am not going to be like those people who bring up the 2000 election anytime they get stumped for something to retort.

Explain this to me. Why is it that many liberals were so up in arms about the wiretapping but would willingly give the government control over our health care. Given that an incredibly few people were affected by the wiretapping, and pretty much every one has a vested interest in health care, I would imagine the civil libertarians would be in an uproar. For all those who want the government out of their bedrooms, marriages and bodies, you want the government in the doctor's offices and operating rooms? Boggles the mind

Mule Rider said...

It's okay, because it's okay to denigrate anything conservative. It is the last socially acceptable predjudice.

There's a mountain of truth in these two short sentences.

Dave said...

My own take on how the Democrats can still win on healthcare:

http://whatareyoulookingatpolitics.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-can-democrats-still-win-on.html

Thoughts?

Walker said...

New Rasmussen poll has Specter beating Sestak in the Democratic primary and both of them losing to Toomey in the general.

Gulp.

Gyrate said...

"Explain this to me. Why is it that many liberals were so up in arms about the wiretapping but would willingly give the government control over our health care."

Even accepting that we're giving the government "control" over health care (which we're not in this instance), that's like asking why we're okay with the government control of our public schools, our police, our fire services, our roads, our garbage collection etc. Healthcare is the only area of broader public benefit that isn't government controlled. There is a wider benefit to ensuring that all people have access to basic healthcare, just as there is in ensuring that everyone has access to a certain level of education, police and fire services, and so forth.

Incidentally, my apologies for misinterpreting which anti-Iraq groups you were referring to. It was not intended as a deliberate misrepresentation. That's what I get for reading the whole thread at once - it all starts to blend together...

brown said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Lehman said...

It is the very comparisons you put forth that scare the bejesus out of me. Public school, except for those in wealthy areas, are crap. The Post Office has problems (The President said so himself yesterday). The DMV and the IRS don't exactly conjure up touchy feeley scenes. All government run.

And, if the government (whose medicare reimbursement rates basically set ALL reimbursement rates) gets into the business of health insurance, then eventually, by dint of the huge membership (again, eventually), lack of a profit motive and the ability to run up huge deficits (based on past performance) they will be the de facto controllers of the health care industry. You want to talk about slippery slopes. It is a measure of how little confidence the Senate has in the quality of it's own plan that the Senators rejected an amendment requiring them to be part of any public option they propose.

It's classic misdirection. They set up a faux crisis (47 million uninsured, though that has been debunked to be actually around 10-15 million), they set up a villian (Evil Insurance companies with their evil 3% profit margins- compared to beer distributors at 25%), and then they try to push through a bill that they themselves (and the President himself) had not read. When people dissent, they go on attack mode and villify the dissenters and worry about talking points and "not having a unified message"

If the plan is so good, then lay it out piece by piece. Have economists (impartial ones, mind you) go over and truly decide what each part means and its consequences, and then vote on it. Hell, have a national referendum on it first, if it is such the right thing.

Personally, smaller steps to help the relatively small number of people who need it and can't get it would be great. An outreach program to make sure that all those eligible for other government programs are signed up for them. Maybe mandatory catastrophic coverage (like auto insurance) with tax credits.

But a huge overhaul, no way.

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

At the end of the day, health care reform is liable to succeed or fail based on the extent to which Americans -- and the Congressmen they elect -- are informed about the true nature of the bills pending before the House and Senate.

Agreed. What you are missing is that it is the contents of the Obamacare House and largely identical Kennedy Senate bills which is driving the backlash.

1) Mr. Obama is openly lying when he claims that Obamacare is designed so that you can keep your current private insurance. Obamacare outlaws all private insurance that is not "qualified" by an Administration health czar. Page 16 of the House bill provides a temporary grandfather provision that allows you to keep your present policy so long as it does not change. Given that all insurance policies update teams annually, your present insurance will be outlawed within a year after Obamacare goes into effect. Even the NYT called Obama on this lie the other day. The Tea Party movement is far more direct and howl at the lie when repeated by Congress critters at townhall meetings.

3) Mr Obama is openly lying when he claims that Obamacare is not designed to drive the citizenry into the "public option" government insurance as Obama discussed back in 2007.

The Obamacare House bill mandates that business will either provide a "qualified" health insurance policy, which will be more expensive than current insurance, or pay a tax equal to 8% of the employee's pay. The 8% tax is far less than current insurance costs, nevertheless the new inflated "qualified" health insurance, compelling business to terminate its current health insurance, pay the alternative tax and cut their employees loose to find their own insurance.

Individual citizens are compelled to buy a "qualified" insurance policy or they will be taxed for the amount of the premiums and assigned insurance by the government.

The choice given to the individual citizens is rigged. The Obamacare "public option" will only pay health care providers at the Medicare levels, which are less than 70% of what private carriers pay. The Kennedy bill provides further tax payer subsidy to the "public option." Private insurers have successfully competed with Medicaid in the past, so the fact that the government does not make a profit is not really a factor. However, private firms cannot compel their health care providers to match the Medicare reimbursement levels. Thus, Obamacare will by fiat undercut private insurance and put it out of business. The only thing that will be left is Obamacare.

A single payer government run option has never mustered majority support among voters. As soon as it became clear that the Obamacare scheme as written in the legislation is plainly designed to compel a transition to single payer, this added to the backlash.

(Cont.)

brown said...

Personally, I'm not angry about the protests, but I am furious that a small minority, egged on by a TV personality for God's sake, has been given such generous spectacle-of-the-moment coverage by the MSM. In 2003, I was part of the protests against the Iraq War, and we drew more participants than any one of these health care protests, or even the tea parties back in April, and the MSM treated us like a curiosity or a sideshow when we were covered at all. And that was about WAR, which is a much more significant and destructive event than marginal changes to our health care system. But I guess since the people being bombed and tortured and occupied under flimsy pretenses were poor and Arabic and half a world away, it wasn't as important or worthy of such anguished hand-wringing.

I have serious doubts, in other words, about the moral priorities of many Americans, given that the political agenda in this country so often seems to be driven by ignorant, self-indulgent loudmouths who shriek about any small change to their comfortable lives while completely ignoring genuine suffering elsewhere in the world, and even in their own backyard. Maybe that's human nature and not just American nature, or maybe we are more willing to give the ugly parts of humanity room to fester and demonstrate, but it sure fills me with a sense of disgust, anyway.

Bart DePalma said...

Continued from previous post...

3) Obamacare is predicated on health care rationing. Obama constantly hints around this reality in his discussions of the cost of end of life care, but is not honest about the implications of his discussions.

Obamacare legislation does not expressly create "death panels," but does grant the government almost complete unaccountable discretion to decide what care will and will not be provided. Given that many of the folks involved in this effort also support draconian cost control regimes, all foreign public systems feature draconian cost control, and there is no money to pay for Obamacare, it is hardly a large logical leap to envision a rationing system that denies end of life care or care to the disabled.

Obamacare legislation does expressly provide a subsidy for doctors to counsel their patients about entering into living wills meant to withhold care. Folks are not stupid and are not buying the spin that living wills are not mandated by Obamacare. There is no reason to include this provision if the intent is not to encourage living wills to deny end of life care.

4) The recurring theme here is dishonesty. Mr. Obama has been lying about the requirements of Obamacare from the beginning and is continuing to do so even though his lies are in complete contradiction to the actual legislation. This lying infuriates opponents of single payer socialized health insurance and ought to seriously disturb ethical supporters. Even if Obama started leveling with the American people now about the tradeoffs of Obamacare, would anyone outside his core supporters believe him?

It looks like Obamacare may die an ignominious and noisy death because folks have read the bill and know the true provisions of this socialized health insurance scheme.

Richard said...

Lehman: I like where we are going with this, it seems useful to have this discussion. I have a couple responses to you. First, you raised the issue of media coverage. I personally think its been far too sympathetic to the protestors, because if you look at the articles on CNN, for instance, there’s barely a mention of how wrong everyone is! I think one I read mentioned the “death panel” absurdity, but that’s it. I mean, if they were really liberal or even objective, wouldn’t we see something like:

“Protestors again disrupted town hall meetings with protests against health care reform proposals that nobody has made. Once again, the protestors spent most of the town hall railing against socialized medicine, euthanasia, and government-provided abortions. The protestors seem unwilling or unable to comprehend the fact that no such proposals have been made, by anyone.”

The fact of the matter is, they are way off base. Now, of course, I fully and wholeheartedly support their right to protest, and I wouldn’t even make them do it from a semi-nearby cage. But they truly are deserving of mockery and ridicule because they are objectively incorrect about what they suggest. Now, for those of them who worry about the cost, the quality of healthcare, etc., those people are not so deserving. But in the pursuit of liberty, especially in free speech issues, you have the right to express your opinion, however right or wrong, and you also have the potential to be mocked, rightly or wrongly.

The protestors against Bush were mocked, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. For instance, Bush’s expansion of federal police powers was truly unprecedented. There was little in terms of oversight for surveillance, and they couldn’t even deal with a two-week after the fact requirement to get a warrant for someone you were already surveilling despite the fact that you could go to a secret court to get it.

As for your concerns about government in doctor’s offices and such, I think those are extremely legitimate, especially on privacy concerns. I am confused, however, by your implied suggestion that such a proposal is on the table somewhere. For that to be the case, I think it would take at least a proposal for a single-payer system (Canadian style), but almost certainly a UK-style system where the doctors are actually government employees. Since nobody is proposing either of those systems (in Congress at least), I don’t think its much of a concern.

Should it get to that point, though, I think you’d certainly have a valid point.

(Not the same Richard as above, so don't yell at him for this).

Mark said...

It's okay, because it's okay to denigrate anything conservative. It is the last socially acceptable predjudice.

There's a mountain of truth in these two short sentences.


Not true. Its pretty socially acceptable to be prejudice towards a variety of groups (e.g. Blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, Socialists) depending on your social group.

The amount of racially tinged (if not blatantly racist) "critiques" that has been directed towards Obama suggests that prejudice towards Blacks (especially successful Blacks) is not over.

Coverage of both Palin and (sec of state) Clinton suggest that there is some sort of prejudice towards women. While both have done things worthy of poor coverage (and arguably Palin has "deserved" more than Clinton) not all of the critiques have been objective.

It is worthwhile noting that prejudice against smokers is relatively socially acceptable. There are laws passed on many occasions restricting the movement and actions of smokers. I'm not debating this practice, but its important to consider who easily people will derogate smoking and people who smoke.

But to follow up on the comment specifically: If you insert the word 'socialist' for 'conservative' in that first sentence you would have a very true statement as well (assuming the original statement was true...).

Perhaps its because it is feared (and sometimes factually) that the absolute extremes of either of those ideologies will ends up somewhere near fascism/totalitarianism.

markymark said...

Lehman you make an interesting point contrasting teabaggers (sorry but that is the term I am using like it or not!) with the anti war movement in the US. I think to an extent you have a point. Except that there are some crucial differences.

You yourself make it clear you are talking about the anti war movement not at the start of the war, but in the middle of the war. I think thats not quite fair inb that case. The antiwar movement was protesting a policy that it had seen fail. (whether or not you agree with them for the moment is irrelevant). These teabaggers have not even let the policy work before they are out wailing about it.

The second point I would make is that most of the antiwar protesteors at least tried to make reasoned points. Thats not what is happeneing at these Town Halls.

You decry the antiwar protestors for saying that Bush is a war criminal, well there is a decent argument to make that case. There is no case to make that Obama is out to get your Granny, or Obama is not born in America for instance.

I think Ron40 raises an interesting point about these not being a national referendum. That happened last year. Obama won, and he hardly hid his views about healthcare away. I have no issue with protest. At the end of the day, healthcare is going to pass through Congress, and there is going to be subastantial reform of how health care is organised in the US. I hope that the Teabaggers can accept that at the end of the sday when it happens.

Richard said...

Sorry to burst the bubble on the outlawing of private insurance, but Politifact gave that particular claim that you LOVE to cite, Mr. DePalma, the worst lie rating its got.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/22/ibdeditorialscom/private-health-insurance-page-16-house-bill/

Bart DePalma said...

Richard said...

Sorry to burst the bubble on the outlawing of private insurance, but Politifact gave that particular claim that you LOVE to cite, Mr. DePalma, the worst lie rating its got.

Go reread my post and then read your linked post for content. I never claimed that Obamacare House bill page 16 outlawed your current insurance. Rather, I stated that page 16's grandfather provision will only protect your current insurance for a year or less, then your current policy will be outlawed and you will be compelled to buy a "qualified policy" under other provisions of the bill.

Part of my law practice is insurance law. The Obamacare House bill is quite clear about this.

kzinret said...

Lehman, the Teabagger Demographic is an accurate description. These people are not honest american protestors, any more than the teaparty attendees were. These are frightened, older, poorer, less-educated that have subliminated their fear of the Other into protesting "healthcare".
Visually, the make-up of the Teabagger Demographic represents "people-who-you-could-meet-at-a-Klan-rally". There haven't been demographic data collected yet, so I am using what my Nonparametrics professor called "the farmer method".
By that he meant eyeballing it, like the way The Farmers Almanac is written.
The use of the Teabagger term is informative in that it points out the absolute disconnect of the demographic with youth culture.
We all understand teabagging far better than the obscure pre-revolutionary war metaphor about taxation.
It was the first thing we thought of.....and it took the Teabagger Demographic quite some time to understand.

PorridgeGun said...

GROG, nobody disputes Rasmussen is a solid pollster during an election year, when he and other pollsters are held accountable. But in recent months, his bias has become blatantly obvious to almost everyone.

Saying that, he's just released a poll which shows loony Toomey crushing Specter in a potential 2010 match-up. As one comment summed by nicely, "Rasmussen has truely jumped the shark."


There's a reason why FReeptards were attacking him in the run-up to election day, yet are now singing his praises. And there's a reason why the FOX Propaganda Nutwork have him on.



My main problem with Rasmussen, apart from his right-wing bias and shilling for The Quitter, is his disinguousness and ridiculous push polls, particularly regarding the aforementioned Quitter. Here's a belter from earlier this year:


New Poll On Limbaugh: It's All In How You Ask The Question, Isn't It?

There seems something just a little fishy about the new Rasmussen poll deflating the idea that Rush Limbaugh is the leader of the Republican Party, with only 11% of Republicans agreeing to the premise and 81% disagreeing.

On the other hand, the phrasing of this question seems like it's designed to elicit a "No" response, especially from Republicans: "Agree or Disagree: 'Rush Limbaugh is the leader of the Republican Party -- he says jump and they say how high.'"

Not surprisingly, GOP respondents don't want to admit they are the yes-man patsies of a radio loudmouth.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/03/new-poll-on-limbaugh-its-all-in-how-you-ask-the-question-isnt-it.php

markymark said...

BDP,

I think you are not understanding the purpose of the national health insurance exchange, if you think that it means outlawing an existing insurance policy. Here is what politifact say about that clause
'The House bill allows for existing policies to be grandfathered in, so that people who currently have individual health insurance policies will not lose coverage. The line the editorial refers to is a clause that says the health insurance companies cannot enroll new people into the old plans.'

Now as I understand it, the NHIE is there to ensure minimum standards from the Health Insurance industry. 'The new regulations require insurance companies to accept people even if they have previously existing conditions and to provide a minimum level of benefits, among other things.' I suppose if you want to keep an insurance policy specifically because its not going to cover your pre existing condition or because it offers you a low level of benefits, you might have a point.

Lehman said...

Markymark wrote:

The line the editorial refers to is a clause that says the health insurance companies cannot enroll new people into the old plans


So only people with current health insurance get to have private insurance. And, as those people die off, younger people without private insurance have what option exactly? The private one. Only. If that is not a defacto single party payer system, then what exactly is it?

Lehman said...

Oops, mistyped

Markymark wrote:
The line the editorial refers to is a clause that says the health insurance companies cannot enroll new people into the old plans


So only people with current health insurance get to have private insurance. And, as those people die off, younger people without private insurance have what option exactly? The public one. Only. If that is not a defacto single party payer system, then what exactly is it?

markymark said...

No no Lehman thats not it at all. Private insurance will still exist, but the insurance companuies will not be able to enroll new people into policies that do not qualify under NHIE standards. Come on thats not difficult to undrestand!

Bart DePalma said...

mm:

Almost no current health insurance would "qualify" under Obamacare. No matter how you spin it, it is a flat out lie to state that folks will be able to keep their present insurance.

There is a reason why Obama will only answer questions from preselected audience members. It would be highly embarrassing if a Tea Party protestor was permitted to read directly from the legislation and ask Obama whether he had read his own bill or was simply lying. This is what his Congress critters are facing in every open townhall meeting.

markymark said...

To further clarify, private insurance companies will be allowed, no encouraged, to offer qualifying policies. to new customers. Its really not that difficult to understand.

Lehman said...

And you misunderstand that the repeated use of "Teabagger" only makes liberals and young people titter to themselves in an I'm-so-superior way and does nothing to address the very real anger present in the tax protesters and the health care forum protesters. And your blanket "people-you'd-meet-at-a-KKK-rally simply reinforces your willful ignorance. If you were truly open-minded, you would take the time to listen and understand opposing views, as there may be kernals of truth and perspectives that would add to the sum total of the arguments. But, by stating your ignorance and elitism in such an abrupt and offensive way, you shut off any debate, and get into the same kind of ad hominem attacks you decry when they are aimed at you.

andy r said...

i think we are seeing a new phase in the health care battle. people in canada and england are pushing back on the social network sites.

that could make a big swing. at least i am seeing it were i go.

Lehman said...

And when the government sets the rules, they would never set them up to favor their own interests, right? Thats why the ACLU never objects to profiling or illegal searches. If the government does it, it must be okay, rright?

markymark said...

BDP, so what your complaining about is that people will be forced to have better insurance plans?

But they won't be forced to change plans. The insurance companies will be forced to change the terms of some plans I would imagine. But thats not the same as you changing your insurance plan.

Pragmatus said...

Trouble in Paradise. Cheney’s going to have an uphill battle for conservative hearts and minds though.

Too bad the Old Testament God can’t come down and knock a few heads together among the GOP mucky-mucks.

markymark said...

And George W Bush was sooooo good at answering questions from anything other than a pre selected audience wasn't he!! In Bush's day they wouldn't even get within 2 blocks of the meeting!

Pragmatus said...

These town-hall rant-a-thons have gotten out of hand. They should be restructured in such a way that puppets from both the insurance companies and the GOP don’t get a chance to disrupt everything.

The rules should be—no placards, no speaking out of turn, everybody gets a chance to come up to a microphone and ask a question or make a comment, and those who disrupt the meeting should be escorted from the room.

Of course the GOP town-halls would never adopt such rules. They’re interested in as much incivility as possible—it’s their only hope for torpedoing true reform legislation.

Saint Dude said...

@Lehman,

What exactly are the "government's interests"? What role does social security, medicare, the post office, etc. play in the government's nefarious scheme?

Bart DePalma said...

markymark said...

BDP, so what your complaining about is that people will be forced to have better insurance plans?

If Mr. Obama believes that Obamacare will be superior to less expensive private insurance without mandates, why doesn't he honestly make that case.

I like my HSA plan where I get to decide whether or not to use my HSA money to purchase particular treatments and drugs.

Such plans where you have the choice to determine your own care will be categorically outlawed under the Obamacare legislation and that decision will be granted solely to the discretion of an unaccountable government health car czar.

I would be pleased to tell Mr. Obama to his face what he can do with his theft of my rights of contract and association, but his minions will not allow any true dissenters into his Colorado townhall propaganda show coming up over the next week.

And you wonder why a so many are enraged about Obamacare...

Walker said...

Rasmussen:

For First Time in Over Two Years, GOP More Trusted on Health Care; Super-Popular President Who Men Want to Be and Women Want to Be With Now at All-Time Low of 47%

markymark said...

This is an interesting read

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/13/health_care_protesters_playing_with_fire_97878.html

BDP,
Ahhhh the arrogance of you knowing better than a medical professional!

I am not necesarily saying that whatever bill comes out of the process will be perfect. But I honestly and earnestly believe that a bill that guarantees cover for all Americans must be passed this autumn. Its just time to get this done.

Saint Dude said...

Lehman said ". . .the repeated use of "Teabagger" only makes liberals and young people titter to themselves in an I'm-so-superior way and does nothing to address the very real anger present in the tax protesters and the health care forum protesters."

Sorry but I have simply not heard anything coherent coming from the teabagger crowd. Just because they are angry, doesn't mean that they have any justification for their position. For example, I could be angry that you are exercising your first amendment rights and posting an opposing view on this forum, but that would be rather ridiculous wouldn't it?

As far as I can tell many of the teabaggers are against social security, medicare, medicaid, the IRS. the FDA, the EPA, and virtually everything else that has been associated with our government for the last 100+ years. This is an utterly nonsensical position. Even if it were remotely justified, one would have to ask why they were not threatening armed rebellion during any republican administration over the last century.

Those that are just upset about the current financial mess that we find ourselves in should consider the following:

1) It was a republican administration that crashed the economy into the ground.

2) Deficit spending has historically been the M.O. of republican presidents.

3) The various programs that have been implemented by the government during the current administration have likely staved off another great depression.

4) Many of these programs will pay for themselves over time, and are vastly more budget friendly than letting the economy free fall.

As for the healthcare debate: None of these people have voiced reasoned complaints or alternative solutions. "death panels", "government takeover", "government bureaucrats making healthcare decisions", etc. are conspiracy theories, not facts. And while many of these people acknowledge that this country needs real healthcare reform, they and their republican enablers are completely silent as to what that reform would look like.

Throw in the racist, hate mongering, and incitement to violence, and I fail to see why this crowd is deserving of anything other than contempt.

Mule Rider said...

...don’t get a chance to disrupt everything.

TRANSLATION:

"...don't get a chance to express their protected free speech rights."

markymark said...

...don’t get a chance to disrupt everything.

TRANSLATION:

"...don't get a chance to express their protected free speech rights."

TRANSLATION
COnservatives can say what they want, but Liberals have to shut up, especially if they are , say, opposing a war, in which case they are being unpatriotic.

Bart DePalma said...

markymark said...

BDP, Ahhhh the arrogance of you knowing better than a medical professional!

Were you born a serf or was this worldview a product of your environment?

This is America where we are all supposed to be at liberty to exercise self determination like adults.

When it comes to my freedom and well being and that of my family, I question everyone and do not concede my autonomy to anyone. If my doctor recommends a course of action, I will ask him or her to justify the proposed treatment and to provide me with alternatives. Generally, the doctor will be glad to do so and will be pleased that you are taking an interest in your own care.

The bureaucrats who will be in charge of administering Obamacare are not the medical profession and due far less deference than a doctor. Given that Obama's auto task force tasked with running government motors does not include a single member who has ever run a business or turned a profit, what makes you think that Obama's health insurance czar will have any background in medicine? There is nothing in the Obamacare bills that set qualifications for the czar in charge of your health. It is a political appointment.

Lehman said...

Once again, you are lumping all the protesters into the same bunch (and throwing in the race card for good measure... again, nice tactic).

point by point:
1) It was a republican administration that crashed the economy into the ground.

They added to it, no question. I was pissed at Bush over the fiscal insecurity he foisted on us. Then Obama went and took the deficits to unforeseen heights. Thats what is called making a bad situation worse.

2) Deficit spending has historically been the M.O. of republican presidents.

- Yes, the M.O. of the GOP but brought to an art form by Obama.

3) The various programs that have been implemented by the government during the current administration have likely staved off another great depression.

- Gotta disagree with you there. Kind of like Obama saying "Well things are better in Iraq, but it wasn't because of the surge" last summer. Home foreclosures spiked last month, so we'll see what happens, and what actaully helped.


4) Many of these programs will pay for themselves over time, and are vastly more budget friendly than letting the economy free fall.

- SERIOUSLY??? We have a $36 trillion dollar unfunded liability in Medicare. Twice our GDP. But that's just the US Controllers word, not he Chosen one. When has the government EVER administered a program that was fiscally sound and budget friendly? C'mon. You can't actually believe that?

Once again, as long as you lump conservatives into a big racist, greedy, stupid mass of obstructionist screamers, then you will fail to understand that there is a reason that Universal health care is widely regarded as on the far left wing of the ideological spectrum. And that the answer falls somewhere in between the Total Libertarian keep-what-you-kill survival of the fittest mode and the socialist each-according-to-his-ability-each-according-to-his-need mode.

Neither is right, and if liberal means open to other ideas, then you ain't liberal.

Lehman said...

And Markymark, have you heard the "treason" "Unamerican" epithets being thrown around by the lib media lately? Apparently Libs hate free speech too, when it is counter to their interests.

beavis said...

that's why obama won - and because obama said he was a centrist.

Obama is doing what he said he would do if elected. Either you didn't pay attention or are yet another person spouting GOP talking points.


There is no "obama care" plan. He drafted rough principles and is letting the hill hash out the details.

There are no death panels, if you guys could read you would see that the proposal simply pays doctors for end of life consultations, any decisions are left to the doctor and patient and his/her family, like it should be, no insurance company making the decision like it is now. This is not communism or socialism and of course not both, although the retarded right can't seem to figure how they can't be both.

It is about protecting the country and its citizens economically.It is about human rights and how it is wrong that corporate entities literally decide who lives and dies based on which is more profitible for them. Somehow the ignorant masses riled up don't seem to care that people who profit off them make their medical decisions.

I am a disabled vet, I got lots of care while on active duty and after. In both cases the government provided care has been better then anything I have got in the civilian world, and the decisions are strictly between me and my doctor, even if it violates policy, they will do it with no hassles.

Try getting that to happen under a HMO.

Which is all beside the point because the health care reform will not move people under government provided health care, they will simply help pick up the tab.

Unfortunately there is a large portion of ignorant easily manipulated people who are in that state over fear of a black man.

Not coincidently, when I see this people yelling and screaming and spouting easily provable lies, I can't help but think of the future depicted in Idiocracy. These people are just as stupid. I have yet to see one of these people make something that resembles and informed and reasoned argument.

Their idiocy may lead to violence and it will be the fault(morally and legally) of the talking heads on Fox and the corporate lobbyists that control the teabaggers that are whipping them into a froth.

PeteKent said...

It is fundamentally a bad political strategy to attack the people. Especially when they are demonstrating legitimate outrage and fear over healthcare reform legislation that no one in the White House or the Democratic leadership has the courtesy to explain to them.

Into that void of information (“Obama’s Anti-Teaching Moment”) steps rumor, innuendo and fear.

Leave it to Sarah Palin to crystallize the debate in one two-word phrase: DEATH PANEL.

The potency of the locution comes from its basis in the people’s fear of government intrusion in their lives, their mistrust and disrespect for government power, and from the people’s wisdom who have collectively been able to figure out that something nefarious and untoward is going on here.

Bottom line under ObamaCare you won’t get your cancer drugs or your pacemaker and if you are old, you are expected to crawl off into the woods and die. This last from Presidential advisor Ezekiel Emmanuel, brother of Rahm, who has written that the unproductive do not have the same basic right to care as the productive, singling out those with dementia as among those who should be cut off.

People like Dr. Emmanuel have no business advising the President. Obama surrounds himself with ultra left wing kooks who scare the bejezus out of us.

Death panel indeed!

petekent01 (on twitter)

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Lehman, have you heard the "treason" "Un-American" epithets being thrown around by the conservatives at the rallies in regards to health care reform lately?
Apparently, conservatives hate individual protections, which is counter to their interests.

Lehman, treason is wishing death upon the President which has been seen by the faxes sent to Congressmen threatening both them and the President with death.

The un-Americanism is the shouting down of people coming from misled angry conservatives to prevent others from exercising their First Amendment rights.

markymark said...

See BDP I think you may be confusing what the Czar could do in this case. They aren't going to be running around to every doctor asking them to justify every treatment etc etc. What they will be doing is saying that certain treatments CAN be used. Sort of like the FDA does anyway!

Honestly the level of paranoia some on the right are showing about what governments do is astonishing. Yes maybe us liberals were a little paranoid about the Patriot Act in some ways, but this is surpassing even that if you honestly believe all of this.

I would expect a medical expert to justify the treatment they are putting you on. Thats natural. But I would expect them to know best, they do after all have medical training and knowledge that is beyond my scope of knowledge. Just as I expect airline pilots to have more of an idea about flying a plane than I would. I think it is arrogant to not recognise such. (And I would expect that the Insurance companies might be happy for you to choose your own treatment because people will largely choose the cheaper treatment I would imagine??)

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...
This post has been removed by the author.
liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

P.K.

Did Obama come out with a health care plan already? Can you link to it?

Or are you talking specifically of one of the House or Senate bills.

Pls clarify. Thanks.

beavis said...

This is America where we are all supposed to be at liberty to exercise self determination like adults.

There is nothing in these proposals that take it away.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to be honest. You can't spout lies and get all hysterical.

There were legitimate reasons to oppose the Iraqi war, the right has nothing legitimate to hand their hat on in the health care debate.

Just like the Iraqi war debate, how little there was beforehand. The right used fear to get their way and think it will work now despite not working in 2006 and 2008. But, since the GOP is morally bankrupt, has no ideas, and its base has nothing left but the greedy and the rednecks that the greedy manipulate and take advantage of in nearly every area, it is not going to work again.

Over 70% of the population wants a public option. The dropping approval is because the Dems are not being aggressive enough and pounding it through.

If the final bill has a reasonable public option, the number will go up.

Remember the GOP numbers are 20-25 lower than Obama's. The GOP hasn't done anything positive, so they continue to drop. It should be obvious to the GOP that as long as they are in Bush numbers territory they are stuck in the wilderness. It might be time for them to change course and start talking and offering real solutions.

beavis said...

This is America where we are all supposed to be at liberty to exercise self determination like adults.

There is nothing in these proposals that take it away.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to be honest. You can't spout lies and get all hysterical.

There were legitimate reasons to oppose the Iraqi war, the right has nothing legitimate to hand their hat on in the health care debate.

Just like the Iraqi war debate, how little there was beforehand. The right used fear to get their way and think it will work now despite not working in 2006 and 2008. But, since the GOP is morally bankrupt, has no ideas, and its base has nothing left but the greedy and the rednecks that the greedy manipulate and take advantage of in nearly every area, it is not going to work again.

Over 70% of the population wants a public option. The dropping approval is because the Dems are not being aggressive enough and pounding it through.

If the final bill has a reasonable public option, the number will go up.

Remember the GOP numbers are 20-25 lower than Obama's. The GOP hasn't done anything positive, so they continue to drop. It should be obvious to the GOP that as long as they are in Bush numbers territory they are stuck in the wilderness. It might be time for them to change course and start talking and offering real solutions.

KIC said...

Hmmm. My idea of "meltdown" and Grog's are apparently polar opposite.

Does anyone else wish that life was like the interwebs and once the term "Nazi" gets played you can invoke Godwin's Law? Because quite seriously, this is when any authenticity of these 'outraged' Americans hit the wall for me. I simply can't take them seriously, although their toxic presence still alarms me. However, it tells me they have NOTHING legitimate in their arguments.

beavis said...

Bottom line under ObamaCare you won’t get your cancer drugs or your pacemaker and if you are old, you are expected to crawl off into the woods and die.

Prove it.

Petey the parrot can't.

Their is no Obama plan, it doesn't exist. So you start out with a faulty premise and then make up lies.

Instead of parroting nonsense prepared by Insurace lobbyists, how about you actually show your claims are true, or even plausible.

Otherwise you are just another frothing at the mouth redneck like Bart, Ass Rider, and the knuckle dragging mouth breather you see screaming at what are supposed to be discussions.

markymark said...

Lehman said
'And Markymark, have you heard the "treason" "Unamerican" epithets being thrown around by the lib media lately? Apparently Libs hate free speech too, when it is counter to their interests.'
----------------------------------

Erm yeah, on Fox News. Not really seen any liberal media person accusing these protestors of being unamerican or treasonous? If you have a link to a liberal media type using the terms then I would be pleased to see it.

PeteKent said...

Nate Misses the Point

The protests are not cause – they are effect. Given the coverage that continues and the way these things seem to escalating as witnessed by last night’s coverage, there is a true groundswell of populist opposition to ObamaCare that is building in the nation.

These people are not being lead from any quarter that I know, but seem to be an indigenous movement of concerned and outraged citizens who cannot believe that the President and Congress would attempt to perpetrate such perversion on them without deliberate consideration.

It is the absence of explication that is fueling the protests. Obama will only talk in campaign sound bites and Pelosi can only attack the protestors as Swastika-wearing, Gucci-clad goons. Better look in the mirror Fraulein Pelosi! I concluded last evening that the battle is lost for the reformers on this one.

There will be no healthcare reform.

The outrage of the people is too great and the Democrats in Congress along with Obama have lost the people’s trust. Obama himself was caught in a litany of lies coming out of his NH Townhall and he even used a major political supporter's daughter as a prop (covered in Boston Globe and now all over). Our President too is being exposed for the charlatan snake oil salesman he is.

Imagine Obama being advised on matters by people like Rahm Emmanuel’s brother, Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel , who has written that “unproductive” citizens, including people with dementia (!), do not have the right to basic care.

How illiberal of him! Or is it?

You all ought to be ashamed to be associated with such tyranny!

petekent01 (on twitter)

markymark said...

Wow PK, all you needed to say there was that Obama was going to take away your private health insurance and you would have hit just about every nugget that has already been disproved on this thread.

Good effort though.

Mule Rider said...

There were legitimate reasons to oppose the Iraqi war, the right has nothing legitimate to hand their hat on in the health care debate.

When someone begins at such an unreasonable starting point, there is no point in trying to talk civilly about a topic.

No wonder these protestors feel the need to scream, yell, and curse. People like beavis have already shut them and their ideas off as illegitimate, so they probably feel it's the only way to make their point.

Mule Rider said...

Otherwise you are just another frothing at the mouth redneck like Bart, Ass Rider, and the knuckle dragging mouth breather you see screaming at what are supposed to be discussions.

Still playing the role of internet tough guy and resorting to name-calling, I see. I've given you more than enough chances to stand tall to me, provide your credentials, and talk about the issues civilly.

Yet you cower and hide and are good for little more than hurling your disgusting bile and hatred all over every comment stream.

Still afraid of me? Your opinion of me is so low, so I don't understand why. Come on, tough guy, speak up and let your voice be heard.

beavis said...

When someone begins at such an unreasonable starting point, there is no point in trying to talk civilly about a topic.

No wonder these protestors feel the need to scream, yell, and curse. People like beavis have already shut them and their ideas off as illegitimate, so they probably feel it's the only way to make their point
.

OK, MR, show one GOP screaming point that is true. Not just claim, but prove that it is.

No, they are screaming because they were told to by health insurance lobbyists.

Good luck.

This is the Iraqi war play book all over again. Spread lies and fear and say that if you oppose you are [insert bad thing here].

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

PK, MR, BDP or Lehman.

Can either of you four stooges point me to the bill Obama has drafted?

Bart DePalma said...

beavis said...

BD: This is America where we are all supposed to be at liberty to exercise self determination like adults.

There is nothing in these proposals that take it away. If you want to be taken seriously you have to be honest. You can't spout lies and get all hysterical.


Really? You might want to actually read the Obamacare bills.

Obamacare outlaws your choice whether or not to obtain health insurance. If you decline to buy one of the the government approved plans, the IRS will tax your pay and the government will assign yoy a plan. This is freedom?

Obamacare outlaws HSAs with limited catastrophic health insurance where the patient decides whether or not to spend his or her HSA money on a treatment or drug. This is freedom?

Obamacare will outlaw nearly all current insurance enjoyed by employees unless it conforms to Obamacare mandates set by an unaccountable bureaucracy. This is freedom?

As I described in detail in my first post, Obamacare is designed to eliminate all of our private insurance options - government approved or not. This is freedom?

Sorry, but I am turning off your road to serfdom.

Mule Rider said...

Yes, there has been unnecessary shouting and screaming and outright misrepresentation and lies by some people who are determined to protest and obstruct debate on the issue.

But I guarantee you 90% of it or more is legitimate concerns about the government creeping into every aspect of their everyday life.

PeteKent said...

Mike in MD:

Dontcha remember that poll taken this year – 40% of Americans identified themselves as Conservative 40% as Moderate, and less than 20% as Liberal. Given that Obama ran (and lied) as a Centrist, his election proves nothing (except maybe about media complicity in his fraud).

This is a center right country.

petekent01 (on twitter)


WV: appiness -- what male Libs lack cause their women got them all!

Bart DePalma said...

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

PK, MR, BDP or Lehman. Can either of you four stooges point me to the bill Obama has drafted?

All of them. Both the House and Kennedy Senate bills are virtually identical and were drafted in coordination with the White House health care task force.

Mule Rider said...

Can either of you four stooges point me to the bill Obama has drafted?

I haven't made such claims so don't go throwing out that at me. Stop with the lies.

beavis said...

Still playing the role of internet tough guy and resorting to name-calling.

Not only are you stupid, but are a hypocrite of Sanford proportions.

You, of all people, who have challenged dozens of people to a fight? Threatened Nate? Spent a week screaming about how you hope Obama get killed after the election laced with the appropriate racial epithets?

You are pathetic.

Not one of your claims has any basis in reality. I am seriously happy you are back on your meds, but you can't pretend that a year of hate and vitriol spewed by you didn't happen.

Nosimplehiway said...

@Bart DePalma

Requiring all new activity to conform to the new standards while grandfathering in old activities is how new regulations are normally implemented. For example, new safety standards on cars may grandfather in old cars already on the road which pre-exist new regulations, but require all new cars going forward to adhere to the new regulations. Ford doesn't retain the right to build cars to the 1903 standards just because that's when the company was founded. Otherwise, the Fiesta would have steel wheels and no seatbelts.

Often new regulations will have a grace period, which requires old products to be brought up to the new standard by a certain date or when certain conditions occur. For example, the ADA (signed into law by Bush the Elder, and expanded by Bush the Younger, credit where credit is due, this was a very good thing) required existing plants to remove barriers for the disabled if it was readily achievable. But, some businesses were allowed to put off retrofitting their facilities for wheelchair accessibility until they remodeled or performed new construction in the normal course of business, but not before.

In insurance, old policies may be grandfathered in for a time (in this case a year), but new policies being written would have to adhere to the new standards. That is an entirely routine method of phasing in a new regulation.

You've said that you are an attorney who as part of his practice deals with insurance law (or did I misread that?). Is it then, your professional opinion that the government has no power at all to regulate existing products as well as new products? Should Ford be allowed to build and sell cars to the safety and environmental standards of 1903, when the company was founded? Would you feed your kids Oscar Meyer Liverwurst if it only adhered to health and safety standards from 1900 when the product was first developed, before the existence of the Food Safety Inspection Service? If a state finds that a particular breathalyzer tends to give false positives for drunk drivers and requires by statute new standard equipment, should the old breathalyzers still be used by police departments that already have them? The idea that new regulations can't over-ride old regulations (or lack thereof) would lead to legal chaos in which every product, service and activity in this country was decided based on what the law was at an earlier time.

But then, phasing out old products and requiring new standards is just standard operating procedure for new regulations, isn't it? Maybe the law of Colorado works differently, but it seems to me either you've put forward some truly incompetent legal reasoning or you are intentionally trying to deceive people on this board about how regulations are normally put into effect. Which is it? A lack of honesty or a lack of competence?

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Bart DePalma said...

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

All of them. Both the House and Kennedy Senate bills are virtually identical and were drafted in coordination with the White House health care task force."

All of them? There's five on the table, one still incomplete. You mean the Wyden(D)-Bennet(R) bill too? Also the Finance bi-partisan bill also?

I don't understand you. Make yourself clear.

How are there similarities? You mean how they try and cover as many people as possible?

beavis said...

But I guarantee you 90% of it or more is legitimate concerns about the government creeping into every aspect of their everyday life.

Funny how these people were quiet when the government was wiretapping US citizens without a warrant, kidnapping thousands of people off the streets in foreign countries, most were released by Bush btw, how about when Bush ignored warnings of an imminent terrorist attack?

This people did'nt care about that? But yet now seem to care that they can have cheaper health care with greater control over the decisions and they get upset? Not too mention most of these people are older and are already on a government plan, all of whom would scream bloody murder if it were taken away?

You give credence to these people? Seriously?

Mule Rider said...

You, of all people, who have challenged dozens of people to a fight? Threatened Nate? Spent a week screaming about how you hope Obama get killed after the election laced with the appropriate racial epithets?

Most of that was bullshit spewed from an impostor. I'm tired of defending myself over what some childish pricks did with my name. But whatever.

You are pathetic.

In your world view, which is pretty narrow. Almost everybody I know on this side of the computer screen thinks I'm pretty intelligent and successful. But I guess I should be concerned about what one dimwit liberal who has done nothing but engage in hate-filled rants and has never proven he has completed the 8th grade thinks about me. Yeah, your opinion carries a lot of weight. About as much weight as the anal cavity of a gnat.

Not one of your claims has any basis in reality.

You never specify but always give this generalized, broad-stroke retort. You'll have to do better. You can't play the 5 year old and just say, "Everything you say is just stoooopid! Thbthbthbthbth!" I've talked at length before about immigration, macroeconomic policy, energy policy, etc. so you ought to have plenty of material to call me out as wrong. Again, the lazy "nothing you say" approach won't do.

I am seriously happy you are back on your meds, but you can't pretend that a year of hate and vitriol spewed by you didn't happen.

I'm not on meds and never have been...for anything. I occasionally drink a few beers, and that's about as close to a mind-altering substance as I get. Thanks for sharing that familiar but hackneyed schoolyard taunt, though.

You have easily surpassed and embodied multitudes more of any "hate and vitriol" I have every displayed on here...and you do it day in, day out.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

MR, you're right. You understand Obama didn't write the bills.

Besides, having four stooges didn't quite fit.

PK, Lehman and BDP,

Sorry kids, you're still my little three stooges.

You know, every time I think of the modern Republican party, I think of the following video. It explains in a way I could never how the Republican platform has become completely hijacked by corporate manipulation of love of country and constitution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQJ9Xp0xxU

dave in san mateo said...

I wonder if legislators supporting health care reform would be able to disarm the protestors more effectively with an approach that was more professorial and less adverserial. What I don't hear much of is the - "what I hear you saying is ..." - approach commonly used by counselors. "What I hear you saying is that you don't favor a nationalized health care system. They have one of those in England, as you know, and there are pluses and minuses to the system they have there. As a whole, though, I think you and I are in agreement that there are more minuses than pluses to a nationalized approach to health care. In fact, as you may know, none of the bills currently under consideration would nationalize the health care system in the US. The vast majority of Americans, just like you and I, favor private health care provision, and I'm certain that any health care reform package will continue to support that model. There's widespread agreement on that." Since most of the protestors express opinions that are generally supported by the prostetee (no death panels, for example), I would think that underscoring the points of agreement would be a useful thing to do.

PeteKent said...

When Nixon demonized the protestors against the War he could do it because they pretty much looked and behaved like freaks. But these protestors look like regular people. What Obama and Pelosi are trying to (and by extension CNN and MSNBC), just won’t wash. It was a huge error to try and do this to them. The whole “tea bagger” label was a precursor to this.

petekent01 (on twitter)

beavis said...

All of them. Both the House and Kennedy Senate bills are virtually identical and were drafted in coordination with the White House health care task force.

Not that you had any credibility, but is irretrievably shot when you said this.

Obama laid out principles. The competing bills meet some but not all of the them.

You still need to link to a bill that came out of the white house, an actual bill.

To Ass Rider,

I was wrong, there is one legitimate concern from the right: cost.

It is legitimate, but given the money people and business will save because of a public option and the fact that ER's won't have to eat unpaid bills leading to higher costs and higher premiums, the savings will deflect a good chunk of the costs.

The psychological effect on the populace as a whole when they get to the point that some bad luck will not bankrupt them can not be understated. Even a sizable chunk of insured people are one misfortune away from economic destruction.

Other than that one concern everything coming from the GOP which you, PK, and Bart love to parrot have no basis in reality. Continuing to parrot lies that only the far right believe is not helpful.

Stop parroting and start contributing if you don't like the way the bills are headed.

beavis said...

But these protestors look like regular people.

No, they look and act like people who live in trailer parks and didn't get past the third grade.

Wayward Son said...

Bush bails out the banks = Silence.

Obama continues the same policy = Teabaggers.

beavis said...

I wonder if legislators supporting health care reform would be able to disarm the protestors more effectively with an approach that was more professorial and less adverserial. What I don't hear much of is the - "what I hear you saying is ..." - approach commonly used by counselors. "What I hear you saying is that you don't favor a nationalized health care system.

I have seen video of exactly that. They just keep screaming the lies that were given to them.

They are their at the behest of corporations to make noise not engage in debate. They are astroturfers.

PeteKent said...

I think as long as the LIB fools here continue to use the term “tea bagger” I may have to go back to using the name “Ovomit” for our President. Some months ago I was called out for the gratuitous slurs, took a step back and saw that those who criticized me were right - -it was distracting and not helpful to debate.

That said, y’all seem to like to sling mud, and it is summer, so perhaps I should get back into the sandbox!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Bart DePalma said...

Nosimplehiway said...

Requiring all new activity to conform to the new standards while grandfathering in old activities is how new regulations are normally implemented.

Agreed, but this is not what Obama is saying. Obama is lying when he claims that we all get to keep our present insurance if we wish to. He dishonestly suggests that Obamacare will be added to the current system rather than replacing it.

You've said that you are an attorney who as part of his practice deals with insurance law (or did I misread that?). Is it then, your professional opinion that the government has no power at all to regulate existing products as well as new products?

Delegation of legislative power to enact law and judicial power to rule on cases concerning that law to the executive is facially unconstitutional, but the Constitution lost that battle during the New Deal. However, Obamacare offers some interesting new challenges to the Constitution:

1) The power to levy taxes is reserved to Congress. Obamacare grants that power to the new health care czar.

2) Unlike regulations meant to outlaw dangerous practices that threaten the common heath and well being, Obamacare prohibits my contracting for insurance that harms no one based upon the dictates of the health care czar. Would this pass muster before the Roberts court? This is no longer a rubber stamp New Deal court.

Interesting and scary times.

Mule Rider said...

Funny how these people were quiet when the government was wiretapping US citizens without a warrant, kidnapping thousands of people off the streets in foreign countries, most were released by Bush btw, how about when Bush ignored warnings of an imminent terrorist attack?

Yeah, and it's also funny how much of the Left has been silent about critiquing Obama on many of these issues, even though he's continued many of the same policies of Bush and is expanding the war effort in Afghanistan.


This people did'nt care about that? But yet now seem to care that they can have cheaper health care with greater control over the decisions and they get upset?

There's no proof that health care will be cheaper or people will have greater control over their decisions. Yeah, maybe like 5%-10% of the population, but it looks like it's going the opposite way for the rest of us.


Not too mention most of these people are older and are already on a government plan, all of whom would scream bloody murder if it were taken away?

Still hung up on that one old fool in SC who yelled about "keeping your gov't hands off my Medicare"? Yeah, that was stupid, but don't take that anecdotal instance of ignorance and apply it to everybody. Which is what I'm trying fervently not to do with you and all other frothing-at-the-mouth liberals and the rest of the Left Wing of politics.

You give credence to these people? Seriously?

I don't give credence to misinformation and lies, but I do give it to people with legitimate concerns over what the quality and cost of health care will be in the future and the encroachment of government control on everyday decisions in life.

Bart DePalma said...

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Bart DePalma said... All of them. Both the House and Kennedy Senate bills are virtually identical and were drafted in coordination with the White House health care task force."

All of them? There's five on the table, one still incomplete. You mean the Wyden(D)-Bennet(R) bill too? Also the Finance bi-partisan bill also?


We can only deal with the bills that have been marked up and issued from committee.

How are there similarities?

The issues I raised above are common to both issued bills.

PeteKent said...

Liberal defender @ 137: Then what exactly is Obama doing at all those townhalls? Please tell me, what is it that he supports? As I said – there has been no teaching moment here and that is why healthcare reform is finis!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Mule Rider said...

No, they look and act like people who live in trailer parks and didn't get past the third grade

Wow. Way to take down a bonus prize for Condescending Insult of the Day.

Step into the spotlight and share some information on yourself so we can make a value judgement on you.

Mule Rider said...

[beavis' comment was worth a second effort on my part]

No, they look and act like people who live in trailer parks and didn't get past the third grade

There you go, beavis. Way to court people to the "big tent" of the Democrats. I'm sure dismissing them as uneducated trailer trash will seal their vote up for 2010, 2012, and beyond!

PeteKent said...

Beavis, too, admits it: “Their is no Obama plan” The president supports nothing!
I cannot prove the existence of a negative, but I can look to England where they block websites from the US that advertize efficacious remedies that their National Health Service refuses to pay for. Obama himself when asked told a woman that perhaps instead of a pacemaker her grandmother should just take a pill.

DEATH PANEL!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Liberal defender asks: “Can either of you four stooges point me to the bill Obama has drafted?”

Where is our President? Why has he abdicated leadership ion this crucial issue?


petekent01 (on twitter)

Mule Rider said...

They are their at the behest of corporations to make noise not engage in debate. They are astroturfers.

I love how you rail on people like PK, Bart, and myself as "parroting" talking points and then read this kind of shit you put out...becase, for one, I know for a fact you didn't come up with the "astroturfer" term yourself, and secondly, your dismissal of these everyday people as being at the "behest of corporations" is a meme spoonfed to you by people like Olbermann/MSNBC and other left-wing outlets.

So, c'mon, beavis. Who is parroting talking points here?

PeteKent said...

Beavis (@217) :

What do you have against people who live in trailer parks? Good heavens! Such class warfare should be beneath even you!


petekent01 (on twitter)

Mule Rider said...

Seriously, beavis, we'd like to see proof that these "obstructionists" are beholden to corporate interests. Somebody must've surely made the link by now and exposed it. Share with us what you know. Or admit you're just "parroting" talking points that have been spoonfed to you by MSNBC.

Mule Rider said...

What do you have against people who live in trailer parks? Good heavens! Such class warfare should be beneath even you!

Heaven knows the excoriation conservatives would have received had they complained about the "angry black men in the ghetto" after the Jena 6 incident!

Mule Rider said...

Bush bails out the banks = Silence

Bullshit. I, and many other true conservatives/libertarians, was against this unequivocally from the start.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Come on BDP. Now you're making about as much sense as PK, which isn't much.

You claim to be against Obama's plan. What if Obama signs off on what is mostly in the Wyden-Bennett bill? Does it make that his plan?

I don't get what you're getting your panties in a knot about.

Obama has layed out broad objectives. Deficit neutral, affordable coverage for all, no more denial due to pre-existing conditions and doesn't care how we get there.

You guys are getting fired up over your own straw man arguments. It's really silly and you're coming across as irrational.

At least try and make sense why don't you.

PeteKent said...

MSNBC

Sampling TRMS and BathtubBoy last night I came to the conclusion that by the New Year MSNBC will revise their format and go more mainstream in the Joe Scarborough and Chris Matthews mold (I know Matthews still has that thrill up his leg thing going on . . . ). Ed Schultz is a disaster and Rachel Maddow’s program has the feel of a public access show. Even Olbermann seems to have lost his usual punch.

Could it be that nobody is watching?

While the ratings of MSNBC and CNN have plummeted, those on Fox have soared. The people are beginning to wake up to the inherent left wing media bias on cable and are turning to Fox as the only Net who plays it more or less straight up (Hannity aside – he is their Olbermann, but at least he has a huge following). The Libs won’t see it the truth to this, because they think even CNN is a neo-Nazi net, but the truth be told at Fox it is “we report, you decide”.

Soon those in the board rooms and the editorial rooms will wise up and the tables may turn. Watch for the format changes to come first at MSNBC.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Mule Rider said...

Bush bails out the banks = Silence

But wait. You guys claim this was "necessary" to save us from "financial collapse." Yet you continue to excoriate Bush for his economic policies.

If you're going to bitch about conservatives supposedly not "bitching" before about the bank bailout, yet still hold that up as a life-saving event for the financial sector, then by all means give Bush due praise as being the one to stop the financial apocalypse. Of course, you couldn't do that...give Bush praise, that is. Your head would explode.

Pragmatus said...

Mule Rider…

♦ Free speech does not give anyone the right to threaten anyone else.

♦ Free speech does not give anyone the right to tell lies.

♦ Free speech does not mean that nonsense should be allowed equal time.

♦ Free speech does not give anyone the right to shout so loud no one else can be heard.

♦ Free speech does not give anyone the right to disrupt discussions of public policy.

Surely you’ve heard these two definitions of freedoms that accrue to American citizenship, both of which I believe were written by Oliver Wendell Holmes—

“Freedom of speech does not allow anyone to capriciously yell ‘Fire!’ in a crowded movie theater.”

“My right to freely swing my arm ends where your nose begins.”

Mary said...

I think the right-wing groups fomenting the protests and many of the protesters don't really care about health care reform -- they just want Obama to fail and are thus attacking his must important domestic initiative. It's become obvious that a lot of their motivation is just racism. Their lies about the bills (and I'm sure they know these are lies) have gotten a fair number of uninformed old folks scared. The Democrats' job is to counter the lies so that the latter group becomes properly informed and not scared -- they can't do much about the cynical racists who are fomenting this in the first place.

Nosimplehiway said...

@Pete Kent

Sigh, I hate myself for saying this, but I agree with something you said. It will be more difficult for the teabaggers to be portrayed in the same freakish light as anti-war protesters from the Viet Nam era. Now, in reality, most of those who opposed the war were absolutely normal, average people who did not paint themselves with purple flowers or wear buckskin vests and dirty hair, but a large enough minority did have... unusual personal style... that the whole movement was successfully painted with that brush by the supporters of the war.

That said, the FIRST time there is a serious act of violence at the townhalls, public opinion will turn on a dime and not in a subtle way. Especially if it's caught on film, and what isn't nowadays?

So far the right has kept actual violence contained. At first it was like the Brooks Brothers riots in Florida in 2000... frat boys acting rowdy the way they did at homecoming or during a hazing. No real violence and they weren't ever really out of control. (It's hard to really riot in leather soled weejuns, no traction.)

But we're beginning to see a new breed of teabagger shouting at meetings. These are more mentally disorganized, more emotionally over-wraught. Some seem to be positively shaking with rage. Some have been literally incoherent.

Tempers are running so high, and the rhetoric on the right from legitimate leaders like Grassley and Palin, as well as from self-appointed pundits like Limbaugh and Beck has been so inflammatory that sooner or later those emails that tell people to do anything necessary to disrupt and interrupt the townhalls will land in the inbox of someone with real mental problems. GOP leaders have been absolutely goading their base into more and more extreme behavior.

They are playing with fire, and sooner or later will get burnt.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing about political ideology that predisposes someone to mental illness. There are crazy people in Greenpeace, the John Birch Society and the Kiwanis Club. But, if enough people get pumped up enough someone will start real violence, and not just of the pushing and shoving kind.

If a member of congress or a bystander gets shot, or god forbid killed, all bets are off for the right. What little sympathy the right has among the middle third of voters will absolutely collapse.

As for the term teabagger, hey, they picked it. One of the downsides of having no coherent organized national leadership is that there is no calm, cool voice of reason to veto this stuff before it's implemented. Don't you think some on the left might like to take back levitating the pentagon or Jane Fonda's trip to Hanoi?

markymark said...

I think its hard to look like a normal person when you are up in the face of a respected elected official screaming. That said I think Beavis' little aside was a little off color.

Personally I find it quite sad that there are very few members of the GOP prepared to stand up and criticise these protestors, for there manner much more than what they are saying. I actually think most (note most) liberal protestors that I can think of through modern history have tended to be reasonably respectful to the person, if not the issue they are protesting.

BUT I think back to 2000 and the Florida recount and it was Republican protestors literally breaking into a counting location to stop the count, or campaigners last year yelling at John McCain that Obama was a terrorist, or these teabaggers up in for instance Arlen Spector's face shouting him down. Thats not polite, reasonable protest.

Bart DePalma said...

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Here are your options:

1) Obama has no plan and will sign off on whatever Congress comes up with. I credit the President with more initiative than that. Is his health care task force simply sitting in a room tossing spit wads at one another?

2) Obama has laid out non-negotiable requirements for any health care bill, leaving the details to Congress, and will presumably veto any congressional plan that does not meet those requirements. If this is the case, where are the Obama veto threats against the current legislation that, as I have noted in detail, is completely contrary to the President's principles.

3) The Obama health care team is on the job, the current legislation is the actual Obamacare and Obama's proffered principles are focus group tested lies meant to sell socialized health insurance that, as Obama himself conceded on videotape at a SEIU health conference in 2007, would not fly with a majority of voters.

Give me what is behind door number three. Its the only option that makes sense.

Pragmatus said...

markymark…

Even worse was the anti-Obama sentiment Sarah Palin whipped up at her rallies, so that people were shouting “Kill him!”, something she did not move one muscle to discourage or dispel.

kzinret said...

"And you misunderstand that the repeated use of "Teabagger" only makes liberals and young people titter to themselves in an I'm-so-superior way and does nothing to address the very real anger present in the tax protesters and the health care forum protesters. And your blanket "people-you'd-meet-at-a-KKK-rally simply reinforces your willful ignorance. If you were truly open-minded, you would take the time to listen and understand opposing views."

Lawls.
Well...lets start with the fact that I AM an elite, post-graduate education, and as such I am unwelcome in the New Anti-intellectual GOP. Sarah (when facebookers attack!) Palin has said so.
So that is more like a compliment.

Visual data is still data, like my prof says. My empirical observation is that the mobs of angry old white ppl are demographically isomorphic with Klan rally attendees. And that that is a visually unappealing branding.

Another empirical observation is also that the Teabagger Demographic is not sincere. The teaparties protested Obama doing things that GW did without protest. The screams of socialist! communist! and the chants of tyranny, tyranny are also informative.

Birtherism is an other example of subliminated racism. Quite astonishing numbers of southernstate republicans are birthers.....Alabama pegs at 70%. In the 21st century overt racism is taboo....
Its like this--
Shorter Teabagger Demographic: "50 years ago we shouted nigger! , 30 years ago we talked about states rights, now we ask to see the presidents birth certificate and scream socialist!"

Mule Rider said...

Serious question for anyone willing to help, but fair warning, it's off-topic:

There was a discussion recently on here and it mentioned the MSNBC evening lineup. I'm not sure this person is still on MSNBC, but I can't think of their name. Hint: It's not Matthews, Olbermann, Maddow, or Schultz.

Any ideas?

PeteKent said...

Mary,

How on earth can you make this claim: "It's become obvious that a lot of their motivation is just racism"

How idiotic and sad. I supoose you agree with MSNBC's Carlos Watson who said that using the term "socialism" is the new "n" word.

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Nosimpleway --

You lost me in your self-hatred! So i did not read what you wrote wioth any interest or level of detail.

BTW the term "teabagger" is a reference to a sexual act most often performed by homosexuals (see, e.g., Anderson Cooper). it most certainly was not coined by the "Tea Party" protestors themselves.

petekent01 (on twitter)

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

BDP said,

"Obama has laid out non-negotiable requirements for any health care bill, leaving the details to Congress, and will presumably veto any congressional plan that does not meet those requirements. If this is the case, where are the Obama veto threats against the current legislation that..."

Why would Obama threaten to veto something that is only half way through the process. That wouldn't make any sense. He's not threatening to veto because there is no final plan.

C'mon man. Even you must know that.

And for those that argue this hasn't been a bi-partisan effort. Pay attention to how many Republican amendments are adopted in the final bill given to Obama. I'm gonna guesstimate in the 50-100 range.

PeteKent said...

Mule -- they got rid David Shuster. Like AC/DC Cooper he liked to pick on girls.

Is that who you mean?

petekent01 (on twitter)

Nosimplehiway said...

@Bart De Palma

As you say, the constitutionality of government programs was last seriously challenged during the New Deal, perhaps as a defensive move on the part of Owen Roberts to prevent court packing. Regardless of why it became settled law, it is now and if you don't like it, you'll need to take it up with him.
Congress has the express power (which it did not need to be, taxation would be an implied power under McCulloch, as a necessary precondition to exercising all of congress' other powers) to raise revenue, but no specific instrument for doing so. It is, and has always been, the role of the executive branch to perform the daily functions of governance. The fact that healthcare reform may raise further revenue is no more insidious than FICA supporting medicare, turnpike tolls being used to build roads, or the fees one pays to enter a National Park. The government provides a service and receives payment in return. I could be wrong, but that's actually closer to what the framers considered the proper means of raising revenue anyway, given early turnpikes and tariffs. (or would you like to revisit the nullification crisis?... Are we going to wind up arguing the right of a lord mayor to levy taxes in a medieval town under common law. How far back would you like to go?)
You are correct that the Roberts court is not the Hughes court, but Hughes was no firebrand liberal. In fact, the situation then, with a whole string of 5-4 decisions was similar to today's makeup. I can't imagine the current court striking down the government's power to fund nationwide, organized social services, can you? With the number of 5-4 decisions do you really believe (putting your professional rep as a litigator on the line here) that SCOTUS would open the door to making the funding and administration of Social Security, VA benefits, farm subsidies, food stamps, Pell Grants, the federal highway system and unemployment insurance unconstitutional? Some libertarians like to scream about taxation of all sorts being unconstitutional, but do you really believe the court would strike down the federal government's power to levy taxes and raise revenue?
As for outlawing practices which threaten the common health and well-being, that's what healthcare reform is all about. Currently insurance companies receive premiums from their customers for decades, only paying out a small percentage for minor services, such as sore throats or twisted ankles. The federal government subsidizes these premiums in the form of tax policy. When the beneficiary becomes truly sick (or simply old enough to qualify for Medicare), however, the companies dig up a pre-existing condition (broken leg when you were seven, acne treatments, etc.) or simply cancel the beneficiary's coverage. Or, as happened to my mother, the employer fires the employee with the highest healthcare costs to contain company insurance costs. Then, after a lifetime of paying private premiums, the newly sick person finds themself entering a public program, such as Medicare, Medicaid or simply using unreimbursed hospital services. Then we all wind up paying their medical bills, while the insurance company keeps the profits. These bait and switch tactics and the resulting huge profit margins eat up healthcare resources that would otherwise be used for patient services, thereby harming the community well-being.

Lehman said...

Ok, what I took for an intelligent forum, albeit with an almost toally liberal cast, is devolving into insults and condescension.

All informed Americans understand that a President doesn't write bills, he signs them. He does however set priorities and, as leader of the Democratic party in a totally Democrat dominated government, set gives the marching orders.

SO don't spew that crap about how Obama doesn't write the bill. He is too smart for that. he is allowing the Congress to get beat up because he learned the lessons of HillaryCare.

No Matter how you (and He) spins it, it's his plan, it is his priorty, and it is his administration that will take the blame from the left for it not getting done, and from the moderates and conservatives if he does, and it runs our health care into the ground.

Beavis, Liberal Defender, and the rest who are uninterested in reasoned discourse, and want to cast everyone who doesn't agree with their neo-socialist, rather narrow worldview, and deride with insults an condescension, you can have your message board.

But don't labor under the idea that you are open minded. Don't fool yourself that you are a defender of freedom of speech or of the open exchange of ideas.

Your messiah is a false one, and when he finally targets something you hold dear, there really won't be anyone around to defend your freedoms.

That and you are insufferable douchebags.

PeteKent said...

Lib defender --Nice parroting of talking points on amendments -- those are always there as technical corrections and the like meant to protect the people in the event the mess gets passed. They are not and never have been a sign of bi-partisanship, although your friends at MSNBC would have us believe it to be so.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Mule Rider said...

David Shuster? That may be who I'm thinking about. Thanks, Pete.

That and you are insufferable douchebags.


@Lehman,

Everything you said above was spot on as well, but to this, a thousand times yes!! Insufferable douchebags indeed!

Saint Dude said...

Are there any hyperventilating right wingers here that would care to point out anything in any of the bills being discussed that they are upset about. And by "point out", I mean either cite exact language or at least page and paragraph.

Otherwise, all I am hearing is that all of you are against healthcare reform because it will "mandate in-vitro fertilization using martian sperm that was collected from Roswell in the 40s". I happen to be against that too (see there is room for consensus after all), but fortunately there is nothing of the sort in any of the proposed legislation.

95% of what you clowns are ranting about is based in as much reality as the above "alien sperm" example. In my book, that makes all of you a bunch of crackpots.

Just because someone gets drunk and obnoxious doesn't mean I am required to take them seriously. Likewise for the schizophrenic on the bus, or the disheveled homeless man holding up the sign saying the "end is near!". Irrational and paranoid anger does not an argument make.

Provide some proof, or risk sounding like raving lunatics.

Trust me, you aren't going to get a lot of argument against death panels from the liberal side of the aisle. Just point out where such panels are stipulated and we will all be on your side (think how good you will feel for actually winning an argument for once).

Likewise, if there is specific language that would mandate the elimination of private insurance, you can rest assured that many would be more sympathetic to your cause.

In other words, put up, or shut up.

PeteKent said...

Calling these people "douchebags" is an insult to feminine hygiene!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Nosimplehiway said...

Ouch sorry about poor formatting on my last post. Oops.

PeteKent said...

St. Dude:

Everyone knows that the intent in the bill is to kill off private insurance as one for instance. the deck is stacked agaisnt it. i think it would be rather nhamhanded to abolish it don't you think?

The people have figured this out and that is why they want this thing killed.

Kill it.

It must die!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Best hread in months! Nearing 200 comments!

Who will have the last say for posterity?

petekent01 (on twitter)

shiloh said...

Walker said...

New Rasmussen poll has Specter beating Sestak in the Democratic primary and both of them losing to Toomey in the general.

Gulp.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Dukakis was (((17))) pts. ahead of Bush41 after the '88 Dem Convention and after a (((political campaign))) when actual candidates have to run against each other, Bush41 won by 7 pts!

And as been discussed ad nauseam, Rasmussen is an outlier until a wk before the election when they "tidy" up their polling data science to not favor Reps.

take care

btw, Obama was (((30))) pts. behind Hillary in the Iowa Caucus until (((actual candidates))) had to yes Virginia, wait for it ... (((actually campaign))) against each other.

Oh yea, Obama won the Iowa Caucus, Hillary came in third!

So to all conservatives out there who are fascinated/obsessed w/bogus polls a year and a half before elections, thus operating on a wing and a prayer, (3) words: god love 'ya! ;)

PeteKent said...

nosimplehiway -- you foten despise in others what you ahte in yourself -- you are too lingwinded and do need to use paragraph structure more effectively.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Saint Dude said...

@Lehman,

You will find that the golden rule applies. Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

Right wingers come here with nothing to offer other than insults. They rarely discuss facts or specific policy ramifications. When they do, they get a vigorous debate.

If you are going to show up, offer no specifics, blame everything on Obama, the democratic party, and liberals in general, then you should hardly expect to be treated with respect.

PeteKent said...

Healthcare reform is dead.

The people have killed it!

Long live the people!

petekent01 (on twitter)