8.31.2009

50 Percent is Not a Magic Number

This past Friday, I woke up at the crack of dawn to do an interview for Fox and Friends. As I walked into the studio on the ground floor of the News Corporation building, a producer, the urgency apparent on her face, handed me a printout of an article indicating that Barack Obama's approval rating had dropped to 50 percent in the latest Gallup poll, which is where it remains as of this morning.

This is modestly unorthodox, for what it's worth. I've done a few dozen television interviews now and have never before been handed a piece of paper with what I guess are supposed to be that day's discussion points. But this is a morning show and Obama's approval numbers were not a topic that I'd discussed the previous night with the producers; they wanted to make sure I was prepared. No harm there, I suppose.

The thing is, though, that Obama's approval rating haven fallen to 50 percent is not particularly newsworthy. There's no reason that a drop from 51 percent to 50 percent, or from 50 percent to 49 percent, means anything particularly more than a drop from 58 percent to 57 percent, or from 37 percent to 36 percent.

First of all, although I'm on record as being quite pessimistic about what's liable to happen to the Democrats in 2010, odds are that Obama's approval will have to be somewhat worse than 50 percent for the Democrats to lose the House. The relationship between Presidential approval and his party's fate at the midterm elections is quite linear. An approval rating of 50 percent would typically be associated with a loss of about 26 seats:



The Democrats, however, currently have a 78-seat advantage in the House, meaning that it would take a 39-seat loss for them to lose control of the chamber. The over-under for how unpopular Obama would have to be in order to be more likely than not to cost his party those seats is not 50 percent -- it's probably more like 42 percent. Now, certainly, there's some margin for uncertainty there: Dwight Eisenhower's Republicans, in '58, lost nearly 50 seats even though his approval was in the high 50's. But the point is, there's nothing particularly magical about Obama being above or below 50.

Likewise, Obama can probably afford an approval rating below 50 percent and still be a favorite to win re-election in 2012. George W. Bush won in 2004 with an approval rating of 48 percent, and Harry Truman won in what was considered a huge upset in 1948 with an approval number that had last been tested at 39 percent, although that poll was several months old at the time of the election.



Recent trial-heat numbers, indeed, have shown Obama beating several Republican challengers by margins ranging from 5 to 15 points, even as his approval rating hovers around 50:



Against Sarah Palin, frankly, Obama could conceivably win re-election with an approval rating well into the 40's and possibly even into the 30's. He'll have less margin of error, potentially, if the GOP nominates someone like Mitt Romney (although if I were a Republican strategist, I'd still be holding out hope for none-of-the-above). But again, there's nothing particularly special that happens at 50 percent. Something like 45 percent, which is where Gerald Ford was when he lost to Jimmy Carter by two points in 1976, might be the more relevant number. A quick-and-dirty probit analysis, based on the dataset you see above and placing slightly more weight on recent elections, puts the breakeven number at 44 percent, and suggests that a President at 50 percent approval is as much as a 90 percent bet to win a second term:



This is not to suggest that Democrats should not be worried. They absolutely should be: they should be worried that Obama's approval numbers will dip even lower. But, if you held a Presidential election today, Barack Obama would almost certainly be retained, and if you held a Congressional election today, the Democrats would quite probably keep their majorities.

As for that interview, incidentally, it was one of the more aggravating experiences that I've had in my brief "career" in politics. The host misread his teleprompter (that's the generous interpretation), introducing me as someone who had correctly predicted "29 out of 50" states last November, and then recited a series of pre-spun questions, seeming flummoxed afterward that I hadn't agreed verbatim with his talking points and complaining aloud that the very smart conservative who was supposed to have been on the panel with me (a last-minute cancellation) hadn't been there (to "balance" me, I suppose). Then as I was leaving the studio past a huge trailer serving Johnsonville Brats, they launched into a segment about Britney Spears and Alzhemier's. There was just no pretense of trying to do anything even vaguely resembling the news. I'm not reflexively anti-FOX; in fact, I'd had a couple of good experiences last year on Shepherd Smith and on their business channel. But as for their morning program: Wow. I've never met people more terrified of what might happen if they actually tried to engage in a rational discussion.

162 comments

Nosimplehiway said...

Does anyone have a link to the interview? I can't google before coffee.

JFisher said...

Nate: Any idea if changing Party Leadership in the House and Senate might help November prospects? Do people do polling on these things? After GOP-driven November blitz against Reid-Pelosi, Pelosi's ham-handed CIA finger-pointing, not to mention her representation of one of (if not "the") most liberal, left-leaning congressional district in the country Reid's manifest lack of anything resembling a personality and his unpopularity and uncertainty at home, etc., one wonders if they are really the best foots Dem's have to put forward going into November 2010. Not to disparage Pelosi's well known reputation for whipping votes, but, correct me if I am wrong, isn't there a position below Speaker specifically for doing just that? My guess is they personally poll below congress overall in nationwide approval, which can't help Party prospects in November. To what extent, if any, do you think replacing the leadership would help/hurt/do nothing come November?

Trevor said...

Grand kudos from me on surviving the interview at all, let alone with temperament, dignity, and sanity in tact. I honestly don't think I'd be able to face something so frustratingly irrational with any sort of composure.

Rahmsputin said...

Pelosi's ham-handed CIA finger-pointing

Given that subsequent reports have wholly vindicated Pelosi, I don't see the problem here.

JackRussell said...

Why are you going on Fox & Fiends in the first place?

AnyEdge said...

Rahmsputin:

No they haven't! They've indicated that the CIA did bad things indeed, but that's not vindicating Pelosi, who plainly and baldly lied about when she knew it.

jaguarms said...

Dude, you should be lucky to even get airtime on the Foxnews channel. Most people would kill for that kind of exposure to such a large national audience.

Show some gratefulness instead of slamming the networks that are boosting your career.

They could just as easily find someone else to give free publicity to.

PorridgeGun said...

No, Pelosi was vindicated weeks later by CIA Director Panetta, only he did it very quietly on a Friday/Saturday when nobody was paying close attention. Why. because he sided with the criminals who were attacking Pelosi.

Did she handle the situation well? NO. Was be proven to be telling the truth all along? Absolutely. I mean, even the spineless Dianne Feinstein backed her up.

PorridgeGun said...

Get ready for a shitload of FOX Nation/FReeptard/WorldNutDaily kooks, Nate. You can't be exposing the teabagger propaganda nutwork of choice.

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

This far ahead of the 2010 and 2012 elections, Obama's approval ratings are probably not particularly useful indicators of those election results.

The free fall of Obama's numbers is noteworthy for two things:

1) It is a rough approximation of Obama's current political capital and

2) Both the approval numbers (and the political capital they reflect) have experienced the largest collapse from inauguration to Labor Day in modern presidential history.

Thus, these figures tell us far more about Obama's likelihood of convincing Congress to enact Obamacare and Cap & Tax (or lack thereof) than they tell us about the results of the 2010 and certainly the 2012 elections.

BTW, Morning "news" is the equivalent of the National Enquirer on all networks.

PorridgeGun said...

^ See, what did I tell ya?

Juris said...

@PG: Yep, you're a seer. Bravo.

Glenn Doty said...

2010 is not 2009.

The most important reason that 50% doesn't matter that much is the fact that this is 2009, not 2010.

Numbers can shift quite a bit in a full year. If we have a full year of good economic news, most of our combat troops are pulled from Iraq without Iraq falling apart, and the projected 2010 budget deficit beats expectations (all are likely to happen), then Obama will be 10 points (at least) above where he is now.

The poll numbers today don't matter at all concerning next years election prospects (and certainly don't matter for 2012). They matter concerning whether health care and cap-and-trade will pass. That's the issue today, and that's why the republicans (FOX) are pushing the dropping poll numbers - to spook legislators away from supporting health care reform... Of course in that battle the more important poll would be the one showing the number of Americans supporting health care reform, and that's FAR above 50%.

joel said...

Who the hell knows where Obama will be in 2010. Most likely the dems will lose around 20 seats but this is a lot different than 1994.
Obama was elected with a pretty solid majority, Clinton had 58% vote against him. Back in 1994 the GOP offered an alternative, now they are the party of no ideas.
I cannot envision any way the republicans retake the house and by 2012 I can see obama winning big unless the republicans can find a moderate alternative.
Most likely they will nominate flip flopper Mitt or a right wing extremist, none who are electable IMO.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Fox and Friends?

Haha.

You would have had a more substantive interview on Sesame Street with Bert and Ernie.

Those jokers are afraid of their own shadows. Paranoia personified.

Juris said...

That Britney Spears thing is funny. I couldn't pick Britney out of a lineup. (Why would I want to?) Guess I'm a gonner.

markymark said...

BDP said
'Nate:

This far ahead of the 2010 and 2012 elections, Obama's approval ratings are probably not particularly useful indicators of those election results.

The free fall of Obama's numbers is noteworthy for two things:

1) It is a rough approximation of Obama's current political capital and

2) Both the approval numbers (and the political capital they reflect) have experienced the largest collapse from inauguration to Labor Day in modern presidential history.

Thus, these figures tell us far more about Obama's likelihood of convincing Congress to enact Obamacare and Cap & Tax (or lack thereof) than they tell us about the results of the 2010 and certainly the 2012 elections.'
----------------------------------

Of course an alternative interpretation could be that they show the importance to Obama of passing a strong healthcare reform bill. Perhaps this 'collapse' in his approval ratings have more to do with the fact that he doesn't appear to have handled the issue well, rather than the fact that his policies are unpopular.

I think its very interesting that the Republicans that Obama is doing best against in the head to heads are Gingrich and Palin, the most vocal critics of his policies on healthcare.

I guess it must be quite rare for a Fox and Friends presenter to be interviewing someone who isn't going to tow the party line. I guess the 'smart conservative' was there to hector and bully Nate into looking like a fool. Seems to be what liberals appear on Fox for most of the time.

Juris said...

Yeah, they probably wanted to whup up on Nate. I don't agree with whoever wrote it above that all the morning news shows are a wasteland. But the one on Fox certainly qualifies.

Walker said...

File the above article under “What Nate Says When the Next Republican President Hits 50% in the Gallup Tracker” file…

PorridgeGun said...

Gotta love those Raspublican match-up numbers. Do you reckon those are outliers by any chance? LOL @ tied by Mittens, only beating The Quitter by +6, when every other poll shows landslide for a president during a diciest 2-3 months of his presidency, that likely will prove to be the lowest point.


Scott Raspublican caught with his pants around his ankles, and his big fat hairy ass exposed to the blogosphere

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/27/773158/-Rasmussen-Caught-With-Their-Thumb-On-The-Scale





On the Obama job approval. I kinda predicted this months ago, even when he was 68% in most polls. I said he was making the same mistake Tony Blair did in his first months as PM. Both were swept into power on a wave of hope and goodwill with big and a clear mandate for change, not to mention a corrupt and incompetent conservative party that had smashed itself. And Obama is doing the exact same Blair did. He's been far too cautious, has continued previous government policy, and is stalling on key issues and campaign promises progressives/independents elected him on. Like Blair, the problem with Obama is he's trying to please everyone, and at this point is pleasing no one. He was elected by progressives and independents, they voted for him. By stalling and letting the rot set in during the last few months, he's predictably losing support from those two groups.




Jeff said...

The Palin stuff is getting really old. She's not even a sitting official anymore, is unlikely to run, and is even more unlikely to win the nomination. I know that will disappoint you, as you and your friends seem to want Obama to face a straw opponent rather than a real one. Pathetic.

So, as a right-wing conservative, who do you nominate to be President Obama's opponent?


BTW, it wasn't old 6-8 months ago when FReeptards were saying The Quitter was the next Reagan/Thatcher.




I really shouldn't say too much. The conservative nutbase can't stand Romney, the corporatists and neocons can't stand Huckabee, and if the party nominates anyone other than The Quitter, they'll kick up fuck and form a third party with Glenn Beck and The Quitter as the 2012 ticket.

Walker said...

I guess MSNBC, specifically their early morning shows like Morning Joe, are paragons of news dissemination and analysis…

Fox must be doing something right to have an average audience 2X + the nearest competition.

Chris said...

"Fox must be doing something right to have an average audience 2X + the nearest competition."

And if they did their show entirely topless, had a segment where politicians came on and ate bull testicles, and had a JumboTron in the background showing football highlights, just imagine how those numbers would skyrocket!

I can't believe someone's actually defending Fox and Friends. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Dwight said...

Yes, I imagine that Shepherd Smith might come off as a somewhat more engaging conversation. :)

Silly statician, mornings aren't for thinking! Just look at some of the other shows they go up against.


"Morning Joe. Because I like my news like my coffee, watered down and bitter." - Jon Stewart, roughly from my memory

Dwight said...

Walker said...
I guess MSNBC, specifically their early morning shows like Morning Joe, are paragons of news dissemination and analysis…


No, no they aren't. It's a freakin' wasteland of talking heads spouting fluff.

Tony C. said...

No Surprises, then.

Republicans purposely court shallow-minded magical thinkers. 50% is a magic number. How dare you suggest it isn't! Take your facts and figures and historical precedents and go peddle them to those ivory tower eggheads. Don't bring that crap to Fox and try to poison their demographic's preconceived notions. 50% is a magic number, dammit!

Delorian said...

"I'm not reflexively anti-FOX; in fact, I'd had a couple of good experiences last year on Shepherd Smith and on their business channel."

Agree about Shepherd Smith. I don't think the largest divide in political media today is bewteen FOX and the other networks; I think it's between Shephard Smith and the other shows on FOX. I'm beginning to wonder how he gets away with being himself anymore, unless they tolerate it on purpose just so they can say they're 'fair and balanced'.

PorridgeGun said...

Walker, you're a moron.

Everyone knows, and a poll released last week confirmed it, the entire Republican base watches FOX and nothing else, while MSNBC and CNN split whatever progressives tune in. And progressives don't watch cable news. In fact, they think it's poisened political discourse in America and mainstream journalism. So, I ask you, if you have the entire wingnut base tuning into FOX regularly, and the progressive base only occasionally tuning into MSNBC and CNN, which is then split between the two, who do you think is gonna have better ratings? You ever heard of splitting the vote? As long as you have MSNBC and CNN splitting the vote, FOX will continue to win. Simple.

Independents, who apparently distrust all network news, are spead across the board, with CNN having the slight advantage, which is inexplicable to me considering they've become increasingly right-wing in recent months months(Lou Dobbs, John King, Dana Bash).

MSNBC only have three identifiable progressive voices in their line-up, which they only added to in the last 8 months, and that was only after trying and failing for 6 years with wingnuts Michael Savage, Joe Scarborough and Tucker Carlson. Yet still MSNBC handed 3 hours every morning to Doucheborough and Meek-ah. I mean, MSNBC have still got the utterly insane Pat Buchanan hanging around.

Walker said...

I like my Morning Joe like I like my women…hot, bitter, and with grinds on the bottom…

Snare drum and crash cymbal.

Walker said...

Oh, the “Phantom Progressive News Hound” meme.,,

I missed that one.

Yeah, instead of watching cable news networks they are hand-stitching quilts from discarded Atlantic, Economist, and Newsweek magazines whilst NPR spills out from discretely placed speakers sprinkled through out their 4th floor Manhattan studio apartments.

Sure…that’s how the world words…

Zahlman said...

Nate, how can you justify drawing a straight line through data that scattered? What happened to the coefficients of correlation and all the other fun statistical numbers we used to get?

Noah White-Hamerslough said...
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Juris said...

@Zahlman: That's what linear regression does. I don't see any obvious curvilinear pattern -- do you?

Drawing line segments that connect all the dots provides no added information at all. Linear regression is a reasonable way to calculate the an "average" that adjusts for different levels of the independent variable.

What Nate could have reported, but didn't, is the goodness of the fit of this regression line (MSE and/or R-sq).

PorridgeGun said...

@Walker

If progressives loved both MSNBC and CNN equally, tuned in regularly but the audience was split between the two networks, while wingnuts tuned in regularly to FOX, who do you think would have higher ratings? Simple question.

Bart DePalma said...

markymark said...

BDP said: These figures tell us far more about Obama's likelihood of convincing Congress to enact Obamacare and Cap & Tax (or lack thereof) than they tell us about the results of the 2010 and certainly the 2012 elections.'

Perhaps this 'collapse' in his approval ratings have more to do with the fact that he doesn't appear to have handled the issue well, rather than the fact that his policies are unpopular.


If Obamacare and Cap & Tax were popular with the voters on their merits, it would not matter how inept Obama was in selling them to the voters and Congress. The Dem congressional majorities are large enough that they could have enacted both bills at any time they pleased. The Dems are in fact avoiding a vote because nether bill musters majority support among likely or even registered voters and their members in Red Districts and States are not willing to support them.

I think its very interesting that the Republicans that Obama is doing best against in the head to heads are Gingrich and Palin, the most vocal critics of his policies on healthcare.

If the Dems were at all confident in the merits of Obamacare and its popularity among voters, they would not be offering red herrings like horse race match-ups between Obama and Republicans for an election over three years away.

Noah said...

Sure, the Britney Spears angle is inane, but science is dramatically under-represented in the news compared to politics. Try not to begrudge what little coverage it gets.

Walker said...

Porridge Gun,

Fox News would win, like they currently do, only in that there are far more self-identified 'conservatives' than "liberals" in the US:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122333/political-ideology-conservative-label-prevails-south.aspx

PorridgeGun said...

Revelations Shake Up Virginia, New Jersey Races

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/08/31/revelations_shake_up_virginia_new_jersey_races.html



McDonnell Thesis Raises Questions

The Washington Post digs up a master's thesis written by Virginia gubernatorial candidate Robert McDonnell (R) in which he described working women and feminists as "detrimental" to the family.

McDonnell also said government policy should favor married couples over "cohabitators, homosexuals or fornicators." And he described as "illogical" a 1972 Supreme Court decision legalizing the use of contraception by unmarried couples.

"The 93-page document, which is publicly available at the Regent University library, culminates with a 15-point action plan that McDonnell said the Republican Party should follow to protect American families -- a vision that he started to put into action soon after he was elected to the Virginia House of Delegates."


http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/08/30/mcdonnell_thesis_raises_questions.html



VA-Gov: WaPo Unmasks Bob McDonnell

For the entire campaign, Virginia Democrats, led by their nominee for Governor (Creigh Deeds), have alleged that Bob McDonnell is not a mainstream conservative. Rather, they claimed, he is an ultra-conservative, especially on social and moral issues, who is concealing his real agenda in order to get elected.

Normally, this can be dismissed as the rhetoric that traditionally accompanies partisan campaigns.

In this case, however, the Democrats now have a little documentary evidence to bolster their claims:


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/30/774390/-VA-Gov:-WaPo-Unmasks-Bob-McDonnell

Bart DePalma said...

As for the 50% figure, Rasmussen has Obama down to 46% approve/53% disapprove among likely voters - a new low.

Gallup has been following Rasmussen with about a 2-3 week lag, so by the time football season starts, Gallup should be down to the mid 40s as well.

Walker said...

Top 5 Ways You Know That Obama Has Truly “Jumped the Political Shark”:

• Every one of EJ Dionne’s columns is a pep-talk about how “Obama can still do it!”

• Suddenly on 538.com having an overall Gallup approval rating above 50% really isn’t that much of a big deal

• No one, and I mean NO ONE, attends Obama’s Organizing for America events

• Democrats start turning on one another, hilariously accusing R. Emmanuel and T. Geitner of being “sell outs”.

• Democrats trot out the old meme of how despite a total collapse of his agenda, Obama is somehow really “Zen chess master”, keeping his eye on the “long ball” carefully arranging the chess pieces towards utter political domination!

Dwight said...

Walker said...
Porridge Gun,

Fox News would win, like they currently do, only in that there are far more self-identified 'conservatives' than "liberals" in the US:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122333/political-ideology-conservative-label-prevails-south.aspx


All that really underscores just how useless and empty those labels have become after their 80's recasting into hollow caricatures.

PorridgeGun said...
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PorridgeGun said...

Walker said...

Fox News would win, like they currently do, only in that there are far more self-identified 'conservatives' than "liberals" in the US.



So, basically you're admitting that the "liberal" MSNBC and the Clinon Communist Network are at a huge disadvantge because there are more self-identified conservatives in America? And even with this huge disadvantage, they have the added disadvantage of splitting their liberal audience, which presents FOX with a clear path to victory? Thank you.

Also, nevermind the fact that neither MSNBC or CNN is trusted by liberals, who prefer the internet for their news, and who you say are the monority.


IMO, if CNN wasn't splitting the vote, MSNBC, even with wingnuts Doucheborough and Meek-ah for 3 hours every weekday and the likes of David Gregory and Pat Buchanan, would almost certainly have indentical ratings to FOX. If they shitcanned those right-wing hacks and added more progressives to their line-up, they'd beat FOX easily.



BTW, how come FOX always whines about conservatives being the minority under attack if they're the majority? Could it be more propaganda being fed to their conservative nutbase of an audience?

markymark said...

BDP said
'If Obamacare and Cap & Tax were popular with the voters on their merits, it would not matter how inept Obama was in selling them to the voters and Congress. The Dem congressional majorities are large enough that they could have enacted both bills at any time they pleased. The Dems are in fact avoiding a vote because nether bill musters majority support among likely or even registered voters and their members in Red Districts and States are not willing to support them.'
--------------------------------
translation- Congressional Democrats are chicken shit scaredy cats. Which I don't think you'd find much argument against. But they aren't scared of how succesful or otherwise the policies would be, they are scared of how they as individuals will be portrayed in campaigns. Those are two different things.

But its also true that the process of legislating can be very slow, laborious and ugly (hence the 'two things you don't want people to see how you make- laws and sausages' bit). And that is what is happening at the moment. One thing Obama hasn't wanted to do is to ram through a bill without it having congressional support. I think the low approval ratings have something to do inaction rather than unpopular action.

BDP also said
'If the Dems were at all confident in the merits of Obamacare and its popularity among voters, they would not be offering red herrings like horse race match-ups between Obama and Republicans for an election over three years away.'
----------------------------------

I don't think its a red herring. Its a hypothetical match up between Obama and people who are opposing his biggest policy issue at the moment, and they are coming off worse. I think that is a reasonable comparrison of their policies as against Obama's policies. And I think I have been a pretty vocal supporter of heathcare reform on these boards.

I think there is a big difference between the popularoty of these policies now and once they have been inacted. I think right now people are a bit scared, as they naturally are of change, espeically when the right have heightened their fears through talk of death panels and rationing. I think once the policies have been inacted people will see that there fears are misplaced.

markymark said...

PG said
'IMO, if CNN wasn't splitting the vote, MSNBC, even with wingnuts Doucheborough and Meek-ah for 3 hours every weekday and the likes of David Gregory and Pat Buchanan, would almost certainly have indentical ratings to FOX. If they shitcanned those right-wing hacks and added more progressives to their line-up, they'd beat FOX easily.'
----------------------------------

I haven't noticed David Gregory as a 'right wing hack'? I think its true that he is reasonably fair minded, but he hardly gave the Bush Administration an easy ride as White House Correspondent. Though I think its true that he hasn't been as hard hitting on Meet The Press, as Tim Russert was. But thats comparing apples and oranges I think. (Also Gregory hasn't done the job in election season yet.) I did think the Health forum Gregory hosted on MTP was a bit of a shower, and that he didn't slap down the right wingers on that as much as he should have. (MY recollection being that Coburn and Armey spoke far more than Maddow and Daschle).

I think Scarborough serves a role as the characature of a right wing pompous wind bag on MSNBC. I am not really sure what Mika's role is supposed to be. She comes across a little more as a moderate Democrat, in the mould of an Evan Bayh. I'd have more faith in her if she stood up to Joe a little more rather than being something of a wallflower most of the time.

Buchanan is Buchanan. We all know who he is and what his political background is. I don;t think there is any harm in having a right winger giving the alternative view.

I also wouldn't want the MSNBC vs Fox battle to become a 'we have more viewers therefore the country thinks more like we do' kind of battle. I'd also like to have heard someone on MSNBC to have used the word Chappaquidick sometime over the last week. I think MSNBC should have higher standards of journalistic integrity than Fox seems to have.

PorridgeGun said...
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PorridgeGun said...

markymark said...

I haven't noticed David Gregory as a 'right wing hack'? I think its true that he is reasonably fair minded...



You're kidding, right? I can link you to at least half a dozen examples of right-wing hackery from this tool in the last few months alone, even a private message to Mark Sanford. This guy is worse than FOX's Chris Wallace. At least Wallace has responsibilities to his wingnut audience. Gregory and John King are the lamest of the lame when it comes to the MSM.

PorridgeGun said...

Walker said...

Democrats start turning on one another, hilariously accusing R. Emmanuel and T. Geitner of being “sell outs”.



When in fact they were calling Emanuel a DLC sell-out the moment Obama picked him as Chief of Staff (Go back and read the liberal blogs on November 6, dipshit) and were attacking Geihner as a Wall Street hack and a sell-out when Obama was at 68%.


FAIL.



Top 5 Ways You Know That Obama Hasn't Truly “Jumped the Political Shark”:

1. After the roughest three months of his presidency with progressives and independents becoming increasingly angry and impatient, he's still trouncing the only Republican candidate capable of energizing the conservative nutbase by 23 points.

2. The economy is stable and possibly entering recovery, yet at the same time, RNC Chairman Michael Steele is saying the stimulus package had nothing to do with the recovery (Google it, dipshit).

Only a few months ago, Steele and his ilk were saying this was the Obama Recession.

3. Even as the Dems flirt with the idea of putting a knife to their throats with progressives and independents, the Republican party is still almost as popular as anal acne, and for them to make a comeback, Dems would have to continue to be this lacklustre for another 6 months.



Can't arsed doing four and five, but you get the gist.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Comparing Fox and MSNBC as complete opposites is ridicules.

Apart from Olbermann, you'll find criticisms of the Obama administration on occasion from all the morning and evening shows.

On Fox, you'll never find critics of Republican politicians apart from Shepard Smith on occasion.

Fox, apart from Shepard Smith is 100% propaganda spin for the Republican party. Only one person, Olbermann, doesn't go after the administration.

There's no comparison.

I'm talking of the morning shows and the evening shows.

I really have no clue what gets reported during the day.

Dwight said...

On Fox, you'll never find critics of Republican politicians apart from Shepard Smith on occasion.

There were at least a few "Palin a quitter flake" type comments on Fox after her snap [pre]resignation press conference.

PorridgeGun said...

Is the Quitter running for President of Asia now? WTF




A statement from the DNC this morning:

"In Bob McDonnell's preferred Virginia, women would be stigmatized for choosing to work outside the home, access to contraception would be all but banned and women would be denied equal pay for equal work. In Bob McDonnell's preferred Virginia, the medical decisions of women and their doctors would be criminalized and the victims of rape and incest would have no medical recourse. While Virginians want to keep the Commonwealth moving forward, these devastating revelations prove that Bob McDonnell wants to take Virginia backwards."

"And to be clear, these were not the musings of young student, but rather a 34-year old married man on the cusp of elected office who would go on to doggedly pursue the extreme agenda he called for once in that office."

"By undermining his main argument that he's in the main stream of Virginians, not only has this revelation laid bare McDonnell's real agenda, but is nothing short of a game changer in this election."


http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/08/31/democrats_rip_mcdonnell.html




You know, if Creigh Deeds had been exposed like this, I'd be calling the guy an idiot for handing McDonnell victory. But with conservatives and Republicans, misogyny and attacking women is viewed as a badge of honor.

dre7861 said...
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markymark said...

PG, I think the message to Sanford was basically a 'come on our show' begging note. John Stewart did a piece on the Daily Show about how all the media outlets had done pretty much the same thing. (If I remember correctly someone from ABC news had done the same thing, forget which one of them it was!)

What I would say is that so far Gregory has been a bit too overawed by political figures of all types so far. Personally I would like him to be more hard hitting against all politicians. They all seem to be able to go onto MTP get a bit of an easy ride at the moment. But I don't think he is a right wing hack at all. (Am I right in saying that Gregory's kids go to the same school as the Obama girls, and that it has a reputation for being where the liberals all send their kids? just as an aside.)

dre7861 said...

What amazes me about the GOP thinking in regards to the approval ratings of President Obama is that they measure him by Bush in that they think his polls will continue to go down and will stay down. Wake up President Obama hasn't even served 1 year of his 4 year term. His polling will go up and down and back up again.

BTW Nate, I loved the tidbit about Fox and Friends. Don't listen to certain species of in-bred donkey who have nothing better to do than hang out at sites they say they hate so much. You're site is the second I hit everyday after the Washington Post!

dsimon said...

Walker: Fox News would win, like they currently do, only in that there are far more self-identified 'conservatives' than "liberals" in the US

Well, all those conservatives sure seem to have had trouble winning elections recently....maybe some people's self-identification is a little confused?

Also, last April 21% self-identified as Republicans while 35% self-identified as Democrats. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/parsing-the-polls/21-percent.html

The ratings argument here rests on the almost certainly false assumption that most conservatives will watch Fox and most liberals will watch other cable news. We have no information as to what parts of which group watch cable "news" (if you want to call it that) at all, but I think those who watch are likely to be the most partisan. Seems to me that there are many more highly partisan conservatives, and though they may be only a fraction of all conservatives, they have one place to go to have their views reinforced.

It's simply wrong as a matter of logic to infer much of anything nationally from these ratings since only small and unrepresentative portions of the public are tuning in. But those who want to pretend that these numbers support have their preconceived views of reality will continue to do so.

Pragmatus said...

Walker…

Is it true that “naptime” Missy works at Humana hospitals?

If so then your slavish devotion to the health care/insurance status quo, and your refusal to answer questions on it, plus your laughable claim that “Aatna” is your health insurance carrier, make perfect sense. Now if we consider that you are free to spend your mornings chattering on the computer (probably in your underwear, a can of Diet Coke at your side) you are probably unemployed, so the picture comes into even better focus.

PorridgeGun said...

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Comparing Fox and MSNBC as complete opposites is ridicules.



LIBERAL MEDIA ALERT!!!


Meet NBC's Today Show Newest Correspondent...


Jenna Bush


http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/meet-your-newest-today-show-correspon







Agree to disagree, markymark. Like I said, both David Gregory and John King are about as bad as it's gets in today's so-called news media. Ever since Brokaw, who is another right-wing hack, handed him MTP, he's really exposed himself.

Joe said...

You seem a bit thin skinned about your experience.

Getting unsettled because a producer shows you a poll, while admitting it is normal to apprise guests of what will be discussed. You call it "one of the more aggravating experiences," criticize a misreading of the teleprompter (should it have been 49? That would explain what's gotten you worked up), complain about their audience directed chagrin for not having an opposing voice (yes, your bias is that evident - not in your polling methodologies but in your arguments based on the polls), and ultimately find morning show hosts to not be buttoned-down news people. If you've ever seen their show before, you would have known there is a certain inanity to it all. It doesn't sound like you were abused though.

Larry V said...

How much of the erosion of support or approval rating of Obama and the Democrats in Congress coming from the Democratic base and Democrat leaning independents from a lack of leadership and what appears to be a weakness to act on the Public Option the most all ran on in 08? I suspect that most Democrats like myself are furious and as a yellow dog democrat of the Carolinas if they do not all grow a pair and do the right thing I will for the first time in 30 years sit at home on the couch on election day. I am tired of bustin my hump for Democrats just to see them "wuss out".

Wayward Son said...

Muley stood by his word for an entire 2 hours and 26 minutes.

That's gotta be a record for a Republican.

matador said...

Hi folks,
I noticed that the "match"
Obama-vs-Palin is the best situation for DEMs.
I also noticed in the same "match" that Rasmusson gave Her the best ranking ("only" + 6 for Obama)

:)

So I remember as it was yesterday,that Rasmusson was also the one who pushed Her, with His polls, as "the best" choice for VP to be picked by McCain !!!

And still Ras is pushing Her...so I recon...old Scotty is not only biased...He is in love with Her.

;))))))))))
ciao.

Juris said...

Hey PG: Your post sparked my curiosity. Upon an instant's reflection, I cocluded that any candidate who wants to win a majority ought to seek out the fornicator vote. I mean, there are a whole lot of fornicators. And reaching across the ideological and partisan aisle would be a winning strategy: fornication happens across the political spectrum.

Dontcha think?

Wayward Son said...

Okay, Muley's back to his usual self.

Just as well.. a Republican who makes a promise, and then attempts to stick with it, is in severe danger of rupturing something.

Walker said...

Pragmatus,

You are wrong on several presuppositions.

I am indeed employed (IT biz & screenwriter) but my work is uber-flexible.

Also, I rock an iPhone, my lone capitulation to Apple, a device that easily allows me to submit comments to 538.com willy-nilly as the kids say today.

I am also covered - truly - by AETNA, as is my family. Love them. Want to keep them.

Here's were you are correct: I do sometimes post in my underroos and Missy does indeed have me on a short leash, the ol' ball and chain that she is!

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

ZOMG, Obama is back up to 51% in gallup.

Awaiting big drudge headlines on Obama's new found surge in the polls.

It's over. He's going to go back up to 100% any day now and health care, cap and trade and updating out electrical grid will all pass with overwhelming majorities!

bleepul said...

Am guessing many of us are sick of both parties. How does they match up with Nader and Paul in the mix?

Rob said...

If I've missed this I apologize but I'd love to see the statistics related to winning house and senate seats as they relate to the economy.

It seems to me that the fact that the Dow is up 17% since Obama took office, should those numbers even improve moving toward midterms, that the outcome could be far different than it might currently seem based on opinion polls.

Dwight said...

How does they match up with Nader and Paul in the mix?

Who is Paul Nader you speak of??? :)

Come on, you might as well toss in Pat Buccanan and Ross Perot while you are dredging up the bottom of the tired-old-never-has-been-Presidential-candidates barrel. :)

matador said...

Mule Rider said...

...who don't bow to whatever King or Emperor is self-appointed by the current ruling party, be it a Clinton, a Bush, an Obama, or whoever...
Got that, d-bag?!

August 31, 2009 2:53 PM


Wow Muley,
welcome back.
I got it.
So let's vote for Sir Nate Silver for president in 2012.
I know you used to like Him.

Deal ???
:))))
ciao.

Adam said...

OK, I disagree with you. FOXNews may be blowing this out of proportion, but falling below the 50 percent is a significant benchmark, both psychologically and practically. It means quite simply that Obama is close to losing majority support for his handing of the nation's affairs. Sub-50% is also the difference between winning and losing an election. It is not the same as slippage from 58 to 57 percent. Sorry.

Obliterati said...

Looks like Wayward Son touched a nerve there...

matador said...

Heavy rain on Italy within few minutes...
;)

oh btw where is @shiloh ???

remember guys:

"when you are in command,command"

:)

Wayward Son said...

Sulking over an innocuous utterance, MR? So the scorecard reads..

Failing to live up to a promise.

Hypocritically accusing others of your own faults.

If you have, or can obtain, a mistress in South America, that will complete the Republican Triple Crown in record time.

Tony C. said...

@Bleepul:

I am an independent liberal (former Obama supporter) and I would never vote for Nader, and never for Ron Paul. Ron Paul is a hypocrite, he claims to be a libertarian and Constitutionalist but would outlaw abortion if given the chance, based upon his comments on abortion.

Nader is just too frakkin' nuts and has too many loose screws in the noggin to be President. Seriously; this guy rambles like an old man on the porch.

Anyway, I have resolved that from this day forward the only political donations I shall make shall be to the ACLU or to primary challengers. I will donate to primary challengers to put incumbents out of office anytime they prove they are corporate shills. Besides that, despite the lying sworn oaths of politicians, the only people working to actually protect and preserve Constitutional liberties are the ACLU.

Obama, all of the Republicans and most of the Democrats are all corporate shills. The possible exceptions can be counted on one hand.

Wayward Son said...

Attention, 538.

Do not notice this quote from Mule Rider, posted at 11:08am on 8/31/09.

I'll see y'all down the road when there's an actual election of consequence or when Obama's presidency completely implodes, whichever comes first.

I repeat, do NOT notice this quote from Mule Rider.

I'll see y'all down the road when there's an actual election of consequence or when Obama's presidency completely implodes, whichever comes first.

Now that you have completely missed that quote, you may return to your regularly scheduled comments. Thank you.

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

There are liberal lefties out here that are not loyal to Obama, and we know that you are a lying Republican. Every fart out of your mouth is just another Republican talking point; it isn't hard to figure out which side you are on, no matter how much you deny it.

D-man said...

Looks like Mule has joined the ranks of the Republicans who won't admit it.

There's been a huge upswing of "libertarians" and "independents" who use Republican talking-points at the same time that the rolls of self-described "Republicans" have fallen and the Republican brand is unpopular.

But perhaps it's just a coincidence....

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

I'll see y'all down the road when there's an actual election of consequence or when Obama's presidency completely implodes, whichever comes first.

August 31, 2009 11:08 AM

Mule Rider said...

Blah, blah, blah

August 31, 2009 1:34 PM

Blah, blah, blah

August 31, 2009 1:54 PM

Blah, blah, blah

August 31, 2009 2:53 PM

Blah, blah, blah

August 31, 2009 3:29 PM

Blah, blah, blah

August 31, 2009 3:32 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Mule again, thanx for sharing and as Wayward Son said, a whole 2:26 lol

And BDP/Walker, good move in the last thread knowing you had both lost the debate you decided to move on.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again, then quit, don't be a damn fool! ~ unlike Mule ;)

and again, Fixed Noise has cornered the market on young and old southern white guys. Congrats!

Fixed averages 1.2 million viewers throughout the day and yet palin/McCain got (((60 million))) votes. Maybe Nate needs to do a correlation re: how insignificant fixednews ratings are in respect to actual politics.

p.s. Mule, give us another kiss!

Persuter said...

BTW, I'm not a Republican. I know that makes your head explode...that there are actually people out here who loathe liberals/lefties/Obamabots who have no allegiance to the Republican Party.

We're the group you moonbats always underestimate.


Mmm. So you loathe "liberals, lefties, and Obamabots", but you frequently vote for the Democratic Party?

You're welcome to claim you're "not a Republican", but I have a very, very hard time believing that you have voted for the Democratic Party any time recently.

That you are "not a Republican" in the sense that you do conservative rants on web sites but don't actually care about this country enough to vote regularly, that I could believe.

Bill-O at least puts up a decent front that he's "looking out for the people" and is getting the truth in his "no spin zone." Yeah, it may be a crock of shit, but the discourse is miles ahead of a shitbag like Olbermann who just rants and whines

lol, roger. Bill O'Reilly claims that he's looking out for the people and has a no spin zone, and sure, that's a crock of shit. But Keith Olbermann is a WHINER! So obviously we should all watch Bill, even though we know he's heavily biased and doesn't care about people, because at least he doesn't whine!

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

Ah, see, a typical Republican tactic: Always accuse the opposition of the crimes you are committing. In this case, lying.

You could see this at work when the Republicans were accusing the Democrats of making us less safe and exposing us to terrorist risk; when it was them doing that to us. You could see this at work when the Republicans were claiming they had to violate the Constitution, and treaties, and the Geneva Convention, and laws because they were patriots and anybody trying to stop them were traitors; when they were the traitors and those in their way were the patriots.

It isn't hard to figure out: Republicans claim that others are lying to hide their own lies. I can see through you, Muley. Can't fool me, Republican.

Persuter said...

I've NEVER even once voted for a Republican, donated money to a Republican, or devoted any time or effort to get a Republican elected. Never.

Fascinating. So, if you don't mind telling us, who have you voted for in the last few presidential elections? How about your local Congressional elections? Which politicians have you volunteered for?

shiloh said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Tony C. said...

@Mule:

Exactly how have you exposed any of us? That's another lie. Once you start lying, Mule, nothing you say can be believed any more. You are full of lies, and lies to cover up your lies, and lies to paper over those lies.

Mule Is A Republican, make no mistake about it. By his presents, you shall know him: Mule is a Republican, folks!

Persuter said...

Ah, see, a typical Republican tactic: Always accuse the opposition of the crimes you are committing. In this case, lying.

You could see this at work when the Republicans were accusing the Democrats...


Don't forget the ultimate example of that - swift boating. Pretty remarkable to accuse a former swift boat captain and Silver and Bronze Star holder of cowardice while their own guy spent the entire war Stateside flying jets around.

Downes said...

What do the numbers look like if the congressional election is fought over public health care?

D-man said...

@Mule

I could quote you plenty of your Republican talking-points, but you will just argue that you believe them, or they are true and are not just repeating talking points.

example: (dems are simple anti-business and anti-anybody who makes money)
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/how-to-poll-on-public-option.html#comment-2155841391310224417

But we've all seen you do it time and time again and it is completely reasonable to conclude that you are a Republican in "non-Republican" clothing.

shiloh said...

Mule, you're still here? ... It's Over ~ Go Home ~ Go!

Carol (Aquariusmoon) Duhart said...

"'If the Dems were at all confident in the merits of Obamacare and its popularity among voters, they would not be offering red herrings like horse race match-ups between Obama and Republicans for an election over three years away.'"

If you haven't really noticed, campaigns are starting earlier and earlier. Hillary, Obama, and all the other Dem candidates started in early 2007, almost two years before the elections. They needed it to raise serious funds and rally the base. That's without an incumbent President who could raise funds unimpeded by the need to spend any of it on primary contests. Unless Obama is caught with a 16 year old, he'll run unopposed in 2012. The Republicans (and anybody else) know this, so they'll start polling now, and fundraising as soon as the weather breaks next year.

Back to the Obama polls. Obama is still strategic and lucky. He's getting his lows now, while the midterms are more than a year away, and he has 2 more years to improve on current standings. The time to worry about 50 percent is August 2012, not August 2009 when nobody is voting or thinking about voting.

As soon as a health care plan passes and people find out that it isn't all those horrible tings the teabaggers say it is, the polls will go up and probably for goo.

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

a mindless drone of the Republican party who simply goes around repeating talking points.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The truth shall set you free!

DCM in FL said...

MuleHead

nah, you give yourself too much credit. people dislike you because you are a lying, uncivil, hypocritical crap-flinging son-of-a-beatch - and ytou do not even keep your stories 'straight' or honest...

case in point, those are NOT the same political votes you claimed last fall - when you lived in memphis as you informed us...

as SENATOR Al Franken aptly put it:
'Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them' - descrives YOU to a T [or a 'con']

besides your repeated promises to go away - you can't even keep 'em for a day !!!

DNFTT

markymark said...

Mule Rider may not be a Republican, but he is a right wing nut. He can make as many claims of being a centrist as he likes, maybe he is just a pissed off, angry political agnostic, but if that were the case why would he bother with a political website?

Anyhoo on the whole 50% thing, the whole Presidential approval thing always makes me laugh a little. It has no relationship with elections really, save an idea of where the electorate is. But who exactly approves of the President less today than they did a month ago? What has he done in the last month to make that number go down?

To me Obama supporters are as likely to suddenly now say they dissaprove of the job Obama is doing, becuase their issues aren't moving. Looking at the figures Nate puts up there, 50% approval is a pretty good number really. Now I will admit that the appoval figures are for 3 years further into a Presidency mostly, but 5 Presidents were above 50%, 45 below. I think we will get a lot different number by the time a healthcare bill passes or doesn't.

jeremyzogby said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rasmus said...

AHAHAHAHAHAAA!
Since the last comment has been removed by the author, I'll repost it here. It's too good to be true.
“Fool’s Silver?”
It doesn’t really take an expert to recognize the difference between real and fake gold. And following the calming storm of Nate Silver’s fame, it is becoming more and more obvious that maybe this guy isn’t what he is cracked up to be.
Let us not over look the fact that Mr. Silver does know his baseball stats, and was also pretty impressive during 2008 election season. But we should not lose sight that one of Time’s 2009 “100 most Influential People” completely blew the 2009 Academy Awards.
His Batman-like claim that he is out to get the unreliable and manipulative pollsters is a bold one that should awaken caution since the man has never conducted a poll in his short life. Also consider, is this guy really contributing to any reasonable public discourse? Rather, it seems he is not much different from any of the others who distort facts putting self promotion over reality. And to go back to his above mission, this reveals a high level of hypocrisy.
Here is why: Nate Silver on countless occasions has charged pollster John Zogby with being way off with his online poll results of the 2008 presidential election. But what Mr. Silver forgets to mention, whether it is intentional or not, is that the Zogby Interactive poll results only polled the election up until October 4th- and even still they were relatively close to Zogby’s major competitors (on this same day Rasmussen had 51-45, Gallup 51-41, and Zogby 48-44). This repetition of misrepresentation does not make it truth. The question is why doesn’t Mr. Silver ever ask his fans to check the facts on this one?
Aside from this distortion of the truth, here is another problem with Mr. Silver’s critique of interactive polling. While it is a clever argument when he makes the metaphor of internet polling having an advantage because it is cheaper and follows that New York restaurant’s are more expensive but you get better value; these semantics are only convincing on the surface. And this is probably why he is better at complaining and not involved in the trend spotting business. More and more Americans cease to use their land lines because they are increasingly deeming them irrelevant- landline penetration is where it was at in 1963 and today 92% of likely voters have internet access. Therefore polling companies are finding it more and more difficult to get the once golden response rates. In fact, response rates have fallen as low as 25%.
As great technological changes have occurred throughout history, they have allowed for new ways of conducting tasks and paved the way for new paradigms which have always challenged the status quo. Inevitably, big changes such as the increase of internet and decline of landlines, will in the future make phone based polls obsolete.
Make no mistake- phone based polling is still important and largely accurate. However, Zogby appears to be an innovator with what will ultimately be the future of polling.
Enough is enough with Pope Silver’s inquisition. Zogby has been around a long time and has nailed elections with platinum results, including 2008. Anyone ever see a Silver Poll?


wv: acies- wasn't that a latin word? battle row or so?

Pragmatus said...

Mule Rider…

This is what we know about you—

♦ You like to throw tantrums that would embarrass a twelve-year-old. (“Gut you like a fish!!!”—surely you remember this?)
♦ Your self esteem is not very good, otherwise you wouldn’t have made up that fib about making $685,000 in the stock market, which you were forced to admit was a lie.
♦ You keep swearing that you are leaving this site yet you can’t tear your self away. Sounds like a thin skin and lack of self-control to me.

I don’t know of anybody but a pitiful Republican that would throw tantrums and lie about their accomplishments, then get so panty-twisted he can’t leave when he says he is (must be half a dozen times now).

If you’re not a Republican then you’re still pitiful.

JohnDoeAt30Below said...

<< Against Sarah Palin, frankly, Obama could conceivably win re-election with an approval rating well into the 40's and possibly even into the 30's. >>

If the election were held today and not 3.2 years from now.....

Stick around, this is going to get very interesting.....

Pragmatus said...

Rasmus…

Thanks for posting that diatribe by jeremyzogby. From the use of language and silliness of the predictions I am left to conclude that it can only be the latest incarnation of PeteKent. He certainly has no compunction about appearing under other guises.

Pragmatus said...

JohnDoeAt30Below…

If you think Sarah Palin’s numbers are going to improve over time, you are living in a dream world. Stupid is something that can’t be cured, and she is so dumb that one day a tiny picture of her will appear in the dictionary next to the entry for “idiot”.

Even most Republicans aren’t foolish enough to be taken in by her blather. She was the principal reason McCain was trounced as badly as he was.

Persuter said...

I've always stood by that as my voting and non-voting record. All I said then and now was that I have scarcely voted, but when I have it's been for more "local" candidates. But I don't live in Arkansas anymore and haven't voted since I left.

So let me get this straight. You voted for your local Democratic Congressional candidate in Arkansas, and supported both Democratic senators. But since moving, you have never once voted for anyone?

In particular, can you tell us why Lamar Alexander was so odious to you? If I lived in Tennessee I'd vote for him, yet you found him more objectionable than Mark Pryor? Could you explain why?

I'm curious how exactly you can call yourself "unequivocally independent and decidedly centrist" when you have never voted for any Republican, including centrist Republicans such as Lamar Alexander? It seems like you are a Democratic man through and through, no?

Persuter said...

If you looked strictly at my historical voting record, one could conclude that I was a Democrat.

As I said, though, I swear allegiance to no political party.


As I asked before, then, what made Lamar Alexander so odious to you that you could not vote for him, given that you are "unequivocally independent and decidedly centrist"? I'm confused.

And how many times, exactly, have you voted? You've named a single Congressman who you voted for, and said you "supported" but presumably didn't vote for Pryor in 2002 or Lincoln in 2004. I mean, this is exactly what I was saying - you haven't voted since 2000, correct?

Lying said...

Mule Rider : 538 :: William Kerney : Amazon science forum

D-man said...

@lying

surprised that another person here has spent time on the Amazon science forum.

And you are exactly correct about Mule and Kerney.

Tony C. said...

Mule: Self explanatory.
Rider: Repetitive Ignoramus. Deficient Egomaniac. Republican.

Don't believe his lies about voting as a Democrat, that is just made up cred to try and convince people he is an independent. After all, the worst thing anybody can be called these days is a "Republican," right Mule?

And why is that? Because every single Republican idea of governance has been completely exposed by Bush/Cheney to be completely worthless, and the Republicans that still hold office have been shown to be hypocritical corporate shills of the first magnitude, and nobody that wants to make any political commentary can call themselves a "Republican" and get any respect. So Mule doesn't want the label and like all Republicans will lie, dodge and try to fake his way into some audience for his shallow and pathetically adolescent political views.

Mule claims he can think, unfortunately it is clear to those of us that can think that what he calls "thinking" is pretty much just repeating to himself some mantra of what he believes, and rehearsing the same old arguments against his mental straw men for why he believes it.

It is axiomatic of true thinking that it may change one's mind on an issue; or even a complete reversal, but that certainly never seems to be the case for Mule. His views are fixed and his "thinking" is nothing of the sort, it is just obsessive rehearsal in case he is ever lucky enough to get into a face to face argument with a complete moron.

"Mule" is an unfortunately accurate name on a symbolic level; because Mule Rider is so stubbornly stupid he cannot be moved.

Ashwin said...

seconding request for video; google not turning up anything

Persuter said...

Yeah, I haven't voted since then.

...

But neither one has my vote.


lol, well, since you don't vote, except for one time in the first election you were allowed to vote in, that's obvious, no?

As I said in my first post, "That you are "not a Republican" in the sense that you do conservative rants on web sites but don't actually care about this country enough to vote regularly, that I could believe."

Anyway, to the rest of the people on here, do you really think you should be getting in these long and vicious discussions with a guy who's so politically uninvolved that he doesn't even bother to vote? That's virtually the definition of a troll.

Dwight said...

"Dammit! You are a liar!"

Well, it is a very well established fact that you are. You lost any claim to complain about people not taking your word for something when you decided to spin such childish lies.

Pragmatus said...

Muley…

You’re in a hole.

My advice is to stop digging.

Even with all your childish behavior I detect glimmers of intellect. So my suggestion to you is to look long and hard at your adamant opposition to health insurance reform, and start by asking yourself this question—if I find myself sick and without insurance, will the GOP or the insurance industry come to my rescue?

Then just chill, and follow through on your promise to leave this forum. I don’t think there’s anything for you here unless you undergo a radical change of viewpoint.

thquatch: Bigfoot who lisps

loner said...

Yet another Mule Rider thread.

By the way, what are my "lies", specifically?

There's this one:

I've only ever posted as 'Mule Rider." If you've seen other people you thought were me - same name or not - then you are mistaken.

Obliterati said...

Holy crap. When I made my "touched a nerve" comment, I though I was being clever and snarky. But now, 5 hours later, it doesn't seem quite so funny.

It's just an anonymous comment board on a political polling website, for fcuks sake. Go outside and get some fresh air or something.

Pragmatus said...

Mule Rider…

My suggestion was for you to leave, since you have expressed such displeasure with our company. I wouldn’t call myself a liberal—how many liberals do you know in favor of the death penalty? How many do you think are opposed to affirmative action if it requires quotas in terms of minorities and genders, as I am? (Even though I am of a minority myself.)

This isn’t a liberal echo-chamber—you have painted it as such, so that’s all you can see. There is a lot of good thinking expressed here, that can’t be characterized as one thing or the other.

If you are not in favor of the health insurance status quo, and are not opposed to reform, do you oppose the “public option” if all it will do is provide an alternative to for-profit insurance? Mind you, if there is a “public option” passed, it will eventually out-compete private insurers with their waste, obscene executive salaries and profits coming out of the pockets of premium payers.

What is your position if such a public option can be made revenue-neutral, chiefly because any firm that opts for the public option will save themselves enormous sums they are currently paying for insurance premiums, which can instead be used to contribute to the “pool” from which any public option would operate?

Ann said...

Does anyone have a link to the interview? I can't find it anywhere.

Robert said...

Nate, you went on a FOX show and were surprised they had pre-spun questions prepared?

Letter said...

Going back to the top of the thread before Mule Rider hijacked the place, I want to clear one point up.

Are we sure Pelosi was really vindicated? Yes, the CIA is guilty in misleading Congress on pretty much every issue it opened its mouth on (that was Panetta's confirmation in early July), but it's still known Pelosi knew about waterboarding as early as 2003 regardless. She confirmed attending a briefing on "theoretical" waterboarding techniques and legal authority (wank wank), and learned of their "non-theoretical" use from Jane Harman second-hand.

So really, both Pelosi and the CIA were full of shit all along. As is the expectation for the fine folks in DC...

KIC said...

There is nothing NOTHING worse than someone who spends their time b*tching about politicians that have neither voted, NOR gotten out there and picked a candidate to support and worked their butt off so they have a candidate. IMO, Mule Rider has OFFICIALLY jumped the shark with any right to complain. This kind of "oh I don't like anyone so I didn't vote" is the biggest kind of cowardly irresponsibility there is. That logic is simply there so that you can never be pointed at as taking a freaking stance on anything. Not really. If you had ever made a point worth reading, even that is now subject to total nullification. Get out and run yourself if you are that disappointed, but don't show up on a board, or anywhere else, complaining, when you have done absolutely nothing that resembles even the smallest effort at being a "real American". I may hate the ideology, but at least even the rabid right VOTE.

Judge C. Crater said...

"I've never met people more terrified of what might happen if they actually tried to engage in a rational discussion."

The truth might rear its ugly head and then they'd be just like Jon Stewart and the Daily Show and we couldn't have that now, could we, Mr. Murdoch?

Larue said...

So, Why'd ya DO it Nate? Hmm?

PaulK said...

I think approval ratings more often reflect uncertainty and disturbance to the status quo. Like the stock market, which reacts badly to uncertainty, voters are terrified of uncertainty.
The economy and the health care debate scares a lot of voters and they blame the president. As the economy continues to improve, people will gain confidence. As the health care reform is settled one way or the other, the approval rating will go up. How much depends on multiple factors. Clearly if it is a toothless nonsense bill, the left will disapprove. If it is a tough bill that achieves a lot, the right will disapprove; but, they may change their mind by 2010. Remember, the Republicans and the right were totally against Medicare, but attitudes changed fairly quickly.

The Religious Left said...

That's hysterical, Nate.

DonkeyGaper, you need to go to Burning Man or something and lighten the fuck up. Don't try taking your guns along, though.

Burt said...

It's not surprising that Obama's approval ratings are falling. The people voted for change, and we've gotten a wholesale continuation of Bush policies with a few cosmetic alterations.

I mean, if I'd wanted an escalating war in the Middle East, an economic policy written by and for the biggest corporations, and an administration that is, at best, completely indifferent to important social issues, I would have voted for McCain.

The only question now is, is Obama going to wake up before he loses the base completely?

stevepasek said...

The astonishingly high level of rational discourse here is absolutely stunning, folks, keep up the good work in turning comments into just more drunks shouting in a bar about nothing of interest.

Nate, you need some moderation, and fast.

Cosa Nostradamus said...

.
We're never going to straighten this country out till we get corporate money and influence out of government. Period. Let's all just work on that, shall we?

This just in: Dyslexic healdine news.
.

BlueRevolution said...

@ Mule Rider:

Quote from Thom Hartmann:

"A libertarian is just a Republican who wants to smoke pot and get laid."

Overheard from talk radio:

"An independent is a conservative too embarrassed to call himself a Republican."

RIRedinPA said...

I know you need to write something but it's 2009, the poll is meaningless. Good Lord.

Tony C. said...

@Pragmatus:

FYI, I am a hard left liberal in favor of the death penalty for murder, and perhaps even rape of a prepubescent child.

I believe some criminal acts permanently remove the perpetrators from the category of "valuable life." For some acts they have already cost us (society) more than they will ever be worth, since we can never trust them to be in society again. The logical thing to do under such circumstances is to turn them off. I am not out for revenge, or to cause them any pain or unnecessary anguish, I just think their life is over and we should admit that and put them to sleep. We may need another category of guilt; "beyond a reasonable doubt" is a little too iffy to take such a permanent action; especially with several supposedly guilty people on death row subsequently exonerated by DNA evidence or substantiated confessions of other killers.

Perhaps "totally and absolutely fuckin' guilty" or something.

As an atheist and former military man, I have no moral issues with the death penalty. Life is not that precious; it is pretty damn thick on the ground.

What is precious is the potential for positive contributions to society, love and happiness with others. What is precious is feeling safe in one's home, and confidence your children are safe playing in your own yard or visiting the mall.

Murders and child rapes bring horror to life, and violent perpetrators can never be trusted to not do it again. It is human pyschology that once somebody has broken their cherry and murdered or raped once, every subsequent instance gets easier and easier.

If we are certain somebody is guilty there is no point in housing and feeding them. Terminate them.

My liberalism is reserved for people that deserve to be free, including free from hunger, crime, and exploitation.

Davy said...

@Nate

Wow, You did an interview on Clusterfox and Friends? You knew that was the lions's den, right? I'm trying to decide whether you did it on purpose for effect or whether you thought it was a legit interview with a real news organization.

Regardless, good job on reporting the news spin and not succumbing to the spin doctors. I couldn't find it on the web.

Davy said...

@jaguarms

"Dude, you should be lucky to even get airtime on the Foxnews channel. Most people would kill for that kind of exposure to such a large national audience."

DUDE, are you serious? Fox isn't a news channel. It's a propaganda machine. And you are a willing sucker bowing down at their altar.

Davy said...

BTW Nate:

What were you thinking? Free publicity or purposely driving into th mouth of the dragon?

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

Those weren't attacks, Mule, we were just calling them as we see them.

As for your face: What can you say face to face that you can't do here?

Hmmm, nothing. So is this a veiled threat of physical violence? That would be wonderful, I'd love to tell you face to face. Not only is just the threat a crime ("assault by intimidation" in my state), but if I were truly lucky you would actually assault me.

Then I would own whatever pathetic trailer, guns, or comic book collection you have in there, because --- trust me --- We pompous over-educated liberals know how to litigate, and you wouldn't be the first fool I've sued successfully or put in jail.

So go ahead, Mule. Take a swing. Oh wait, that's right: We aren't face to face, and we never will be, because you are all talk. Feel free to shout louder.

Dwight said...

Or maybe it's me "lying" about the $685K I made on the stock market that Pragmatus called me on earlier. Yeah, that was real "believable" in the first place, wasn't it. Geez, you'd think you guys couldn't tell when someone was making an offhand joke. I retracted it and called it bullshit almost as soon as I said it. Again, I guess it's a "lie" in the strictest sense, but it's more just me horsin' around.

The problem is that:
a) that statement isn't anywhere near the least plausible thing you've claimed as fact
b) that it was just you "horsin' around" is an example of an even less plausible statement, given the context it occured in, you trying to dick swing to create some sort of illusion that you have some sort of amazing handle on economics

PeteKent said...

Nice publicty for Nate. I was listening to Bret Baier's show on Fox yesterday and he used Nate as evidence of the growing consensus that the Dems are in serious trouble for 2010.

Not much of s surprise there.

Obama and the Dems have lost the Seniors. The GOP will campaign as the party that will protect Medicare, borrwing a page from Clinton's "MediScare" playbook. Eerily the whole thing is gaining traction and 2010 could shape up to be a blood bath.

Besides Obama really sucks at being President!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Kyle said...

C'mon you guys, quit jumping on Walker(wishes he was a Texas Ranger) all the time. First off, the louder he blathers shit, the more ludicrous he looks. And reasoning with him? What are you, nuts? Have you ever seen anyone successfully reason with a fox fan, much less a fox "anchor"(I use that term loosely.) Reasoning with some one implies you're dealing with reasonable intellect.

S. said...

On the other hand, 58% seems to be a magic number. Perhaps you can look at the variability / spread of the results. I recognize that this data may be too small to examine spread over an interval, but approval below 60%, the probability of losing seems to be much greater than above 60% (and likewise for not losing all that much [i.e. above the regression])... it simply seems like there's a significant change in spread after about 58%

Dwight said...

What a scathing post Mule Rider! score one for you! Do you feel better now? Hope so because you still have the live with the fact that you are still a 5-start bullshit artist, and one that isn't too bright to boot, and everyone here is still well aware of it.

Tony C. said...

@Lehman:

I am trying to actually engage you in some logic here. What does it mean to "follow the rules" if it is your job to make the rules?

If you are in the MA legislature, the "rules" of the game are that you are responsible for making sure the law produces fair outcomes for the citizens of MA, and the "rules" say you need to change the law if it is likely to produce unfair outcomes for the citizens of MA. Now, forget what happened in the past: Facing the current situation of MA being at half-power in the Senate, in terms of votes, in terms of negotiating manpower and in terms of committee representation, as an MA legislature elected official it is your job by the "rules" to do whatever you can to correct that situation, lest your constituents be denied their voice in the Senate. "Whatever you can" includes your job which is changing the law.

You seem to be misunderstanding that changing the law IS IN THE RULES, it is perfectly legal, and in fact it is the responsibility of the MA legislature to prevent a situation in which their constituents are under-represented.

Cosa Nostradamus said...

.
Please don't feed the trolls.

They're still being breast-fed.
.

Dwight said...

My academic credentials and successful career resume would suggest otherwise about how "bright" I am.

Your career as a economist [in his mid-twenties] that is "highly respected", yet displays a startlingly confused layman's understanding when engaged in conversation on the topic? Or the 'other' career?

Cosa, sorry I really just can't help but feed the 'troll' a generous helping of his own words. ;)

Pan said...

It's getting late - haven't you folks' parents gotten home yet?

I really wish the site could afford to hire a couple of full-time moderators. I can't remember the last time the comments were made up of less than 80% childish ass-hattery.

And now you got me whining about it...

Ralph said...

Obama's at 52% today according to Gallup. Think there'll be any stories about "Obama's rebound in the polls?"

Also, in Va. guv race, Deeds has sliced McDonnell's lead from 14 points to 7 according to PPP.

Tony C. said...

I'm more an adherent of the Austrian School of Economics,

I see, an anarcho-capitalist. No rules, no numbers, no government, just let corporations form oligopolies and use their financial power to enslave the masses, prevent legislation, bribe inspectors, whateva, brudda!

This claim pretty much proves you have no idea what you are talking about. The Austrian school is pure, unadulterated idiocy.

Tell me, if you didn't just make this up after a web search, what specifically is it that you like about the Austrian School?

Tony C. said...

It is not common sense to ignore the utility of statistics and it is not common sense to endorse laissez faire; in fact only a tiny percentage of the population considers that "sensible" which proves it is NOT common sense.

In fact, the actual common sense is that minimum wage is a good thing, that government enforced safety standards in the work place is a good thing, that government enforced safety standards in food, drugs and products are a good thing, that government inspections of buildings and bridges and planes and trains and drinking water are all good things, and the actual common sense is that people should not be allowed to sell or profit from these things that fail to pass inspection.

Laissez Faire, the single central principle of the Austrian School, is opposed to ALL of these things. Every one of them. It is opposed to our anti-trust laws, it has no problem with a monopoly on health care extorting people's life savings. It is pure idiocy, and the vast majority of people, when they learn exactly what the Austrian School contends is fair practice, fully agree.

For some crazy reason, they want the government to protect them from the evil corporate bastards that will blithely poison them, endanger them, or flat out kill them so they can make their next quarter.

Why do they want the government to do that? Because that is one of the government's jobs, to keep their citizens free from fraud and exploitation.

Tony C. said...

A) You can claim I am lying, but look up Laissez Faire. Do you deny that LF is the central organizing principle of the Austrian School? If you do, they you are lying; if you don't, then you don't understand what LF means.

B) Put the minimum wage at $10/hr, I'm okay with that. Reminder: You are from the Austrian school, you don't believe in statistical models, remember? Why are you now trying to set the minimum wage to an average? Oh, that's right, you can't do math, so you don't realize that would change the average, which makes the average a poor target for setting minimum wages.

You see, outside of your ridiculous fantasy world, we understand that the minimum wage needs to provide a certain level of purchasing power, not be set at some given level and left alone.

What adults understand is that the level of the minimum wage is always temporary, because it leads to greater costs which ultimately inflates all prices and therefore deflates the minimum wage.

So, I think the minimum wage should be indexed for inflation, and revisited to make sure the purchasing power in terms of basics (food, shelter, transportation, necessary insurances) is the same about every ten years; say the year after the national census.

The purpose of the minimum wage is to prevent crime and exploitation. It was introduced to prevent the latter, and has been shown to prevent crime. If people can earn a living they will; they turn to crime when a straight full time job won't pay the bills.

Employers, on the other hand, pay as little as they can because that's their job; to maximize profits. Look at Walmart, turning everybody into part-timers to avoid benefits, being sued for demanding overtime without paying it, being sued for systematically paying women less than men, being sued for hiring firms they allegedly knew were providing illegals for cleaning services, and on and on and on. Corporations are psychopaths and the minimum wage is just a constraint to keep them from hitting the natural limit of enslaving people.

If you doubt that is the natural limit, I suggest you see how the Chinese factories supplying Walmart are run; the people are essentially indentured servants.

Ralph said...

Obama now at 54% acc. to Gallup. Spread up to plus-11.1 points on realclearpolitics.

Where are the "Obama rebound" stories?

Tony C. said...

@Mule Brain:

You are wrong, it is not a zero sum game. Tell me, what person employing minimum wage employees today is employing "extra" minimum wage employees?

Any company manager worth their salt, big company or small, has already minimized their labor costs, and did it long ago. Whatever labor they have, they need.

For a given employer, the number of employees they need to service customers or otherwise get the work done is inelastic, and therefore raising the minimum wage does not cost anybody a job. Instead, the employer passes the increased cost of labor on to his customers.

However, observe that an increase of 10% in the minimum wage does not dictate an increase of 10% in the prices, because the wages paid are generally a small part of the total expenses, and the other expenses (rent, electricity, supplies, marketing, insurance, management, loan payments) are not directly dependent on wages, and specifically not dependent on the minimum wage. Professionals do not generally work at the minimum wage, so a raise in minimum raise does not change their wages.

Even for an employer like a restaurant heavily dependent upon minimum wage employees, a 10% raise in the minimum wage only requires about a 2% increase in menu prices to maintain the same net profit per year.

As for the $10 minimum wage, I think a single person working full time should earn above the poverty level; I seem to recall that being about $20K per year.

So no, you are incorrect. It is not a zero sum game. Many minimum wage employers hire more people than they need to provide backup, but business is not a charity: If they have more people than they need, they send people home, and only pay what they need, and they crack the whip to keep them busy all day. Formally speaking, the number of minimum wage hours worked is inelastic, and thus if the minimum wage is raised, the number won't change. Prices will change instead. But presumably the employer has some price competition, so they won't raise prices more than needed to cover the added cost because that risks losing business to a competitor, so the prices will be raised just enough to cover the added cost of the higher minimum wage. In percentage terms, that will be far less than the percentage increase in the minimum wage.

Cosa Nostradamus said...

.
See what I mean about feeding trolls?

If you ignore them, they go away. If you engage them, they smear their babysh*t all over the thread.

Learn, please.

If you really want to spend your time in pointless "debate" with conservatards, go to THEIR blogs. But they prob'ly won't let you take over any of their threads. They really don't believe in free expression, as liberals do. They just come here to abuse that. Stop encouraging them. They're hopeless loons.
.

Tony C. said...

The Evolution of Trolls.

@Cosa:

Sorry, but last time I thought I could safely ignore the trolls they took over Congress and the White House for a disastrous decade, and made a troll Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

So I am trying something different, and I encourage you to do it too. Rile the trolls into spouting some false claim that can be demolished with irrefutable logic. We have to get at their core arguments, like Mule's claim that minimum wage employment is a zero-sum game.

The point is not just to weaken one troll's foundation, it can be a service to other liberals in providing a key argument against other trolls.

Trolls are trolls because they do not understand reality and have really given up on understanding reality. Such students are almost always blocked by either emotional barriers or a crucial set of interlocking misunderstandings; there is something you think is totally obvious and they are unaware of it, or have been taught the opposite by bad teachers, parents, or life circumstances.

They ricochet off those barriers into faith-based belief systems that diverge further and further from reality. By "faith" I don't just mean religion, I mean any system of belief founded upon simple assertion without fact; like the Austrian School of economics, which as Mule correctly says, relies upon "gut instinct and common sense."

Of course, "gut instinct and common sense" were used for justifying racism, slavery, the oppression of women and their exclusion from science and business, homophobia including lobotomies, and most famously, religion itself.

We cannot just let the trolls wander off, gain strength and gain recruits; we have to engage them and dissolve the barriers that keep them from reality, or at least provide others with antidotes to those barriers to help keep them from being replicated.

Sorry if that effort of mine clogs your inbox, but once the substantive comments have ceased you can always unsubscribe to the thread.

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

It depends on what you mean when you say "belief," doesn't it?

If forced to choose by some far out hypothetical, I would bet my life that no God exists. That makes me an atheist.

Life is made of non-living parts. I'm not just talking about atoms which are clearly non-living, but in the lab biologists have taken inanimate components of living things that are clearly themselves not animate, put them together, and they live. Some microscopic life can be taken apart and put back together; life is just a characteristic of a working system, it is not a thing in itself. Life is analogous to an adjective like "red" or "huge", these are not things in and of themselves, they are characteristics of some thing.

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

I don't know if I can continue debating ...

Piss off and good day then!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


as Mule continues to troll ...

Mule, trolling is your life. Try to muddle thru somehow.

take care

Tony C. said...

I am not talking about Urey; I am talking about viruses and some simple single-celled animals which are apparently "alive" (although viruses have outsourced reproduction.)

As for God, you are betting your life on it, or at least some chunk of it.

Actually my conclusions are not based on a false premise; they are based on reality: Atoms are not alive. We are made of atoms, and atoms extremely common throughout the visible universe. Ipso facto, life is constructed of non-living elements.

Your argument is essentially a complexity argument, arguing that life is "too complex" to have occurred without intelligent intervention. Of course you don't know a damn thing about complexity; you have already admitted you are deficient in mathematics (by your Austrian School argument), you have already admitted you prefer to think with your "gut" and "instinct," and so it is YOU that has no basis for your belief that life is "too complex" because you cannot even define what you mean by the words too or complex or, for that matter, life.

Your argument stands on sand, you cannot even define the words you are using without resorting to your "gut" or "instinct," so your argument is simply unfalsifiable. You have reasoned backwards from your feelings to your desired conclusion, and until you understand that (which may be never) you are doomed to waste time trying to appease, cajole or plead with a non-existent entity for supernatural favors.

Feel free, it is your right to waste your life and your money however you see fit. But I am here to tell you, you got conned. You trusted someone that has misled you, either purposely or inadvertently because of their own mistaken gut instinct, and now you believe something that simply isn't true, and I suspect your subconscious knowledge that this cannot be true creates the conflict that is the source of your anger, hatred, and propensity to threaten violence.

It is because you know something is wrong but cannot reconcile that with your stubborn emotional committment to a set of bogus "facts" that doesn't explain the reality you see in front of you.

So you are understandably angry. You dismiss "science" because it conflicts with your bogus facts, you dismiss liberalism because it conflicts with your bogus facts, you dismiss society because for the most part they disagree with your bogus facts.

The way out is to dismiss your bogus facts and start over. Until you can do that, you have my sympathy.

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

It seems to me that you display willful ignorance by believing in God, or perhaps like everything else, you have your own definitions of what "God" means.

The merciful Christian God lets 8 year old girls be kidnapped and raped to death; and I suppose they are praying to him for mercy.

The merciful Christian God lets his faithful and obedient pregnant mothers be shot in the belly during bank robberies, or lets good Christian men be shot in the head as an example of some hostage taker's resolve to get his demands.

The merciful Christian God lets his faithful subjects be tortured to death, burned alive, skinned alive, dismembered alive. He lets his faithful dear mothers be raped and beaten in front of their children.

Oh, I know the answer. God has a plan! I can't know what future was avoided by these acts! He let the child be raped to death to teach a lesson to the parents! He is all powerful but cannot control Satan!

Well, it appears God's plan for some of his most faithful and innocent children is to be kidnapped, raped repeatedly, and then dismembered by circular saw while still alive, then bagged and ditched. Hm.

I think I'll skip Plan G and go with plan A for Atheist. While you are focused on explaining some wondrous complexity you will never comprehend, at least I can understand that most of the evil in the world is actually caused by mental illness, abuse, desperation, poverty, lack of education, plain ignorance and hopelessness.

All of those are things that can be addressed by liberalism, a social safety net that includes health care and public education.

If you were really a Christian, you would be more like Christ, but of course Christ says to give all your money to Caesar and share everything you own with your neighbor and give the clothes off your back to the homeless. Christ was so socialist he didn't even want you to work. Go! Be like a lilly in the field!

The very idea that modern "christianity" is remotely related to Conservative principles or to Christ's teachings is laughable on the face of it.

(Of course I also know Christ didn't exist; he is a mythical character invented circa 280 AD, an obvious plagiarism of the already ancient myth of Krishna. Perhaps you don't know that every word of the Sermon on the Mount is reliably documented as words of Krishna before 200 BC. The difference, of course, was the Indians knew Krishna was a mythical character representing the Sun, while the "Christians" 500 years later were presenting Christ as an actual person. So they set their story a few centuries in the past so it could never be verified by the illiterate peasants they were trying to con out of money. Christianity is the most successful con in history, but if the con comforts your poor frightened brain, you just keep on keepin' on, Mule.)

Tony C. said...

1) Evolution has been proven in the lab.
2) There is not one shred of archaeological evidence that Christ existed. The oldest known document containing any fragment of the Bible is from circa 300 AD. Other than that, how is the existence of a building or camp or art form or anything else going to tell you that an actual person existed and not some fantasy being? We have statues of Poseidon and Atlas and Zeus and Apollo and Aphrodite, do you think these gods actually existed?

Christ is a fable.

As for science and the origin of the universe; I think it is pretty clear how everything can be derived from hydrogen, so the only question is where did the hydrogen come from?

But I do not need a God to explain it, I am perfectly willing to say "I Don't Know" and leave it there. Your fictional God just begs the question, where did God come from? And if your answer is that God is eternal, well if you believe in eternal existences, why not just believe in the eternal existence of something a hell of a lot less complex, like an inanimate universe filled with hydrogen gas?

Your "explanation" is just an exercise in circular reasoning; you are trapped by infinities. If there was an eternal God, then for a trillion trillion trillion times the current age of the universe it was doing nothing; so why did it suddenly decide to create the universe?

Your "explanation" raises more questions than it answers; if you follow all of these stepping stones of indirection about God, you always come to the same answer: "Nobody Knows." Why does God let innocent people suffer? Nobody knows.

How can something (like God) exist that has no beginning? "He just can" is the same as: Nobody knows!

What is God's Plan? Nobody knows!

And on and on, about God's knowledge, power, restrictions, and everything about God. Nobody Knows.

All these convoluted paths to "Nobody Knows" support a story that keeps you subjugated, obedient and fearful.Nothing in the stories ever actually works, but if the religious leaders scare you enough and you are too stupid to recognize their scare tactics, you comply just in case.

Atheists just jump straight to the "Nobody Knows" explanation without trying to sell you any story of any kind. I am a research scientist, but science and atheism are, at least theoretically, independent things.

Science is not responsible for atheism; there is a lot of overlap between the hard sciences and atheism because they require a common trait: A reluctance to believe without verifiable evidence.

My atheism is PURE, I do not rely on science, cosmology, evolution, or any science at all. I dismiss your foolish Bible story and all religious stories as fiction, and I am perfectly comfortable with and willing to remain with "I DON'T KNOW" as the answer to a library full of questions, until the day I die.

As far as being lonely and temporary, I have no problem with that. I will avoid death as long as is practical, but I do not fear death in the least. I have been an atheist for so many decades I long ago came to grips with my temporary existence and eternal non-existence. Not a problem.

Your problem is, you are just as temporary and don't know it. You have bought the lie and think you are earning a payday that will never come. You are enslaved, and as a result, you really are just another duped shill, Mule.

Ralph said...

Sorry to interrupt this fascinating debate with actual numbers, but Obama 55% two days running ... with a big speech ahead which could add another 5 points, putting him in the upper 50s right around ObamaCare vote time.

God. You people. Austriam school? Is that where the Von Trapps learned to sing? Is it any wonder people hate the effing Internet.

shiloh said...

Ralph said...

Is it any wonder people hate the effing Internet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Actually, would say it's more of a love/hate relationship as currently progressives love internet chat and conservatives, not so much.

Religion is based on faith, nothing more, nothing less ie an abstract reality not based on science/fact.

Which is why Rep trolls hoping and praying Obama fails is a waste of energy ;) but hey, they have to keep the faith, it's all they got looking at their current pathetic leadership.

And re: the topic lol just noticed rasmussen has Obama beating palin by only (6) pts. Yep Scott R. has his head so far up Hannity's butt it can now be called a civil union ;)

Praise the Lord!

carry on

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

RE: "Your President": And yours too, like it or not. And yes, Obama is also duped, and apparently an unwitting shill for religious interests. I am not stupid enough to deny reality or to worship status or to simply assume high status is a result of superior intellect, ability, or worth.

RE: "God transcends time": Oh, I see. And what does that mean? Apparently, it means that: "To God, past present, and future are all the same."

Well, that certainly clarifies things, in the sense that it is clear all you can spout is bullshit.

Let us say the past, present and future are all the same. Then either the past and future are unchangeable or they past and future are malleable.

If the future is unchangeable, then there is no point in prayer, or being saved, or worship, or anything else. We have no free will, and those going to hell are going to hell, and those going to heaven are going to heaven, no matter what either do, say, or believe.

Well, predestination is a pretty unsatisfactory outcome. If the future is unchangeable, then I have no choice in whether I will ever acknowledge God or not and neither would you.

So let us reject that hypothesis. Now if the future can be changed, so can the past. God can change anything, any past historical event. He can prevent the civil war, World Wars I and II, slavery, the rise of the Roman Empire. But apparently has chosen not to do so; apparently, God has chosen or accepted the entire bloody, hate-filled and evil history of the world exactly as it is; serial killers, rapists, psychopaths, horrible birth defects, witches burnt alive at the stake, innocent men mistakenly accused and convicted and put to death, kidnapped children turned into sex slaves, all of that. God is smiling down on all of it. Every bit of that injustice and humiliation, every one of the millions of lives spent in slavery or lost in starvation or famine, God knew would happen, could have prevented, and did not. Not only that, but God could prevent them now and allows them to continue to be.

But then, it is impossible for God to make any decisions, because doing so implies a past (before the decision) and a future (after the decision) and these are the same to God. So there is no such thing as a decision to God, or indeed any kind of action, which always imply a past and a future, which are indistinguishable to God.

You don't see how totally effing ridiculous this is? Saying that "God transcends time" is meaningless drivel designed to shut your pie-hole about questions. How is it possible for anything to "transcend time?" You think my pea-brain cannot comprehend that, I think your pea-brain fails to realize that no brain can comprehend that because it is content-free! It has no meaning, it is yet another of the myriad ways of saying "I Don't Know."

This is almost as bad as God's "Plan," which nobody can ever know, but we are assured it is always good for the individual. Unfortunately the "Plan" often involves the horribly painful blood-soaked death of some innocents, but it is always somebody else. The preacher will always assure you that, even though others in the flock may be flayed alive, God's Plan for you is always "good."

What a total crock. Christians are the most self-centered, self-absorbed, defiantly blind to reality group of people on the planet.

shiloh said...

Mule calls it an impasse as he continues to argue/debate in his post and then wonders why someone replies w/a counter argument, classic!

as is so why do you bother w/me

Actually Mule, that is a very astute question, why does anyone bother w/you ~ because we care about your welfare ;)

another question would be if, as you say, one is at an impasse, why did you reply again ...

take care

Tony C. said...

@Shiloh:

Thanks, I didn't realize anybody was still reading...

@Mule:
Well if my actions have been "prophesied" they were inevitable, right? Or the prophesy would be wrong, and heaven forfend any situation from occurring that wasn't already planned in advance. According to your philosophy I have no free will, the future is fixed. It is pre-determined that some (or a growing majority of) poor souls must hate Christianity. Is there a choice? Or is it just that there is a limited amount of room in the haven (oops, I meant heaven, sorry for the ancient structure) for everybody?

Actually as a group I do not hate Christians, I pity them. I pity any group of people being conned, some of them out of their life's savings, some of them out of their actual life. I do not hate the deceived and frightened masses, my hatreds are reserved for those that perpetrate the deception and fear mongering. My hatred is reserved for those selfish bastards that ruin the lives of others in order to gain power and riches to live a life of luxury, usually as far removed from their hapless victims as they can get.

So just look at the money; when you see the cathedrals and churches, St. Peter's Basilica and Vatican City (holding the largest collection of stolen art on the planet), and the river of money and trillions of dollars flowing from the poor into the coffers of churches of every stripe, the recipients of that money are the object of my hatred. Not the source.

And what have those trillions bought? On balance, less than nothing! Lies to comfort the grieving, lies to "explain" the unexplainable with convoluted language impossible to unravel (by design), and most of all, pulpit-pounding self-serving lies shouted with venom to impede any kind of progress, education, science or teaching that threatens to diminish the "faith" of the masses and therefore the cash flow and power of the church.

A more accurate term than "faith" would be "gullibility," because that is what the church (all of them) fight hardest. Those that accept assertions without evidence are gullible, not faithful.

So I don't hate Christians, or Muslims, or Buddhists or Hindus or Scientologists. I hate the people (and they are people) profiteering on the fear of death by lying to them.

My academic training in the history of religions is sparse (but not non-existent), as far as I can tell, the one thing all religions have in common is a denial of oblivion after death.

That's the ticket, Mule, and it is the perfect bullet-proof con: The mark never even knows they have been conned, because at the time they could know they are already dead!

Now we can "decorate" that simple message of eternal existence with all sorts of conditions, payments and demands on their time to spread the "word" and get more suckers emptying their purses into the collection plate. All we need to do is make it some poor bastard's job to listen to their sobbing grief; but no worries; we will recruit dumb believers and make them take a vow of poverty, so it won't impair cash flow too much.

I am not at an impasse. I can point out your logical flaws and misunderstandings all day long, brudda. Maybe someday, something will stick and you will be changed for the better.

Tony C. said...

Right, Mule, you were changed for the better. Before, all you could do was threaten violence against strangers that disagreed with you, but now you can threaten violence against strangers with the force of GOD behind you, and I am certain that feels much better.

There is no "untold good" done by religion that would not have been done anyway, and better and more efficiently and with less harm done to the recipients.

We atheists understand something you deny; we don't need a sky-father or karma threatening us or promising us rewards in order to do good; it is human nature to help others in need. The vast majority of people are born with empathy, and if they aren't trained to suppress it, they become adults with empathy.

In the meantime, the majority of what Christians consider "good" is just the perpetuation of Christianity; missionaries and other preachers are supposedly doing "good" to go and preach the Bible to the heathens; when actually the poor duped missionaries are setting up the converts for subjugation. Take that away, and whatever actual good was done could have been doubled by spending that wasted time spent proselytizing on digging wells and irrigation ditches, posting fences and learning to husband goats.

In other words, teaching. We don't need skydaddy to motivate us; people are motivated just fine by working toward a better life.

Religion is a net drain on the good done in the world, not a net benefit. Every dime spent maintaining a church (or building the Crystal Cathedral), paying a minister for a sermon, or donated to help missionaries "spread the word" of false promises would have been better spent on vaccines, education, basic infrastructure and startup materials (like goats, cattle, horses, seed and ploughs, in the underdeveloped nations).

An atheist world would be a better world in every respect.

Religion is a conspiratorial plot to con humanity; but the only vast component is the number of victims. Kind of like Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme; the number of beneficiaries at the top is a tiny handful of people: Bishops and Cardinals, the Pope, and of course the hypocritical sleazy politicians that preach about Christian values while stuffing money in their pockets, cheating on their wives, and living hedonistic lives.

And then there are the unwitting beneficiaries like yourself; not getting any of the money, but getting the psychological benefits of being an asshole all day and then comforting yourself with the fiction that even if your actual victims do not forgive you, you are still loved and forgiven by your imaginary friends. No wonder your life was changed for the better, it relieved you of all responsibility for your own actions. How wonderful for you.

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

I was changed for the better when I came to know God through Jesus Christ.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Mule, "we" can tell by your previous posts at 538 what kind of true Christian you are, changed for the better, indeed!

Having already proved you are a liar and a hypocrite ...

take care

p.s. too funny you started off a post w/Wow ... Priceless!

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you that anything can startle Mule, who once threatened Nate w/death!

'nuf said!

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

Hm, have I uncovered yet another little power play by Mule?

A pathetic pathological need to have the last word?

Now you are just repeating the same things. But I won't walk away while you persist in misrepresenting my position; I do not hate the religious, I hate the people exploiting them.

This is just another manifestation of both religion and the conservative movement; a consistent blaming of victims while ignoring (or idolizing) the criminals.

Isn't that a large theme in Christianity? After all, the minions are told they must be good and not sin, or the skydaddy will punish them. When the statistically inevitable disaster does befall some poor sap, the Christians root through the past and count his sins to justify why God has withdrawn his mighty shield and let misfortune fall upon this sinful bastard. And if the poor sap is a Christian, he participates in this misguided accounting, feels guilt, repents, and starts attending church -- To the ultimate financial benefit of the church, of course.

Again, no hatred of Christians here, just pity for their utter confusion. They don't undertstand it is all about the money; that is why the Catholic church has so assiduously tried to hide and avoid and evade in court the whole diddlin' priest debacle, on orders from God's infallible representative on Earth, the Pope himself.

It's all about the money, Mule, in politics, in religion, in business. Now I've got nothing against money and people getting rich, nothing at all. But I will repeat, until you get it right, my hatred is reserved for those getting rich through lies, fraud, and crimes against humanity. My pity is for their victims.

As for your pathological need to have the last word: I await your compulsive reply.

shiloh said...

No Mule, you were the first one to say you were at an impasse ... but, but, but you keep replying and replying and replying!

just like one said you were done w/538 forever, never to return ... but, but, but you keep returning and returning and returning!

Compulsion, addiction indeed!

And again, too funny: I now await your compulsive reply.

God, no pun intended ;), you're frickin' clueless er compulsive!

take care

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

At what point were you trying to make a substantive point about religion? When you claim you are "saved?"

How, exactly, is that substantive?

Being "saved" is an emotion, "trust" is an emotion, "belief" is an emotion, "faith" is an emotion, that is why people defend them emotionally and throw their hands up when confronted with science.

And yet, science is the most powerful tool ever invented, and virtually everybody recognizes that. Including the scumbags that want to exploit the fear, sadness and misery of the faithful rabble. That is why they constantly invoke the cachet of science without actually doing any science; because their claims cannot hold up to evidence-based thinking, and they know this.

Science is powerful, and that is why charlatans are always invoking "quantum" crystal effects and other scientific keyword hokum (BTW, I have a $2 dollar quartzian crystal I have quantum polarized for you in sterile field-effect laser reactor that will magnetically protect you from negatively charged karmic ions. Just $49.95, plus S&H.)

Science is powerful and everybody knows it; so charlatans embrace the facade of science, while resolutely rejecting the body of science; evidence based reproducible experiments.

In the lab we can see evolution of bacterial life adapting to new environments; it is so easy to demonstrate that it is a high school biology experiment in some schools. Make the solution more acidic so it is killing some, they invent defenses against acidity. More salt, they invent defenses against that. Less food or moisture, they will invent defenses against that. Furthermore, at the bacterial level, we DO see the equivalent of speciation; bacteria evolved for one extreme environment may die immediately in another, or fade away within a few generations.

Speciation is nothing special at all; yet in the face of what you call "micro" evolution you throw it up as some magical shield. All it means is a failure to produce viable reproducing offspring. Note this is not a failure to mate; horses and donkeys can mate but produce sterile mules (or hinnies).

Once interbreeding stops producing reproducing offspring, further micro-changes are likely to eventually terminate reproduction altogether. I have read of numerous examples cited in papers; including birds, fish, reptiles and mammals.

One tiny genetic change with no external evidence can stop interbreeding and be the dividing line between "species." For example, in one species, a doubling of a gene that then increases the acidity of vaginal secretions that acts as a spermicide for incompatible mates.

Once such a change occurs, any random changes that DO serve as external markers to distinguish the two species becomes favored; as they increase the reproductive chances of both males and females. Such changes can be purely cosmetic; like colors, bumps, horn curvature, or mating behavior. Thus, what appears to us on the outside as frivolous features may be quite important markers to members of a species.

In any case, "micro" evolution IS evolution without any qualification necessary. It directly implies speciation on a larger timescale.

So if you want a substantive discussion; and we both agree that microbial evolution is evident in the lab, how do you refute th logic that this directly implies speciation
without resorting to your emotional rejection of the obvious consequences?

shiloh said...

Mule Rider said...

In short, you are completely irrelevant to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


So Mule, you aren't, as the Bible says, your brother's keeper! through thick and thin, eh.

And again, too funny re: the last word, as once upon a time you were never ever gonna return to 538. You were done, defeated, exposed as a total frickin' loon and hypocrite as you have shown once again in this thread.

You, Walker, TommyReport, PK, BDP etc. are 538's court jesters and only serve the purpose of comic relief which actually has some pluses ;) at a progressive site like 538.

Hopefully, in your case, there is a god and may he have mercy on your soul!

take care

p.s. and for someone, as you say, completely irrelevant to you, one sure did spend a lot of time arguing w/him as he logically refuted every point you made ... indeed, quite enjoyable! :)

Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing ...

ciao

Tony C. said...

@Mule:

1) I said nothing reflexive or ranting; I asked you a legitimate question which you are incapable of answering. I mean that literally; you are in a lose-lose situation; if you answer my question truthfully it destroys the basis of your faith; if you answer it disingenuously it exposes you as a fool, thus you must employ the only option left: Walk away.

2) I believe I do understand the most basic premise of life. It's purpose is to reproduce genetic patterns. Done.

Of course we must distinguish between terms that are often taken to be synonymous but are not: The purpose of life is to reproduce, that does not mean that life has meaning. 99.999% of life does not require any grand meaning to their existence.

Of course, religion provides some rather empty promises of meaning. Did God really create men to spend eternity worshipping Him? That sounds like some kind of cosmic masturbation theory to me; like some pathetic programmer writing code that flatters him and professes its love for him every day, but in a female voice.

Ahh, but the point of religion isn't meaning, is it? When we examine the empty platitudes of "meaning" offered by religion, we are left with the one conclusion: It is about eternal life without meaning, it is about not dying, it is about fear of death.

That is all there is, and that is why the common thread of every religion denies the end of whatever we mean by "I" or "me," and all the rest of the religion is just fantastical decorations piled on this basic idea.

So I understand the basic premise of life just fine, the difference between us is that I can accept a finite existence because that is reality, and you cannot accept it because it frightens you too much. As a result of this denial of reality, you are forced to swallow the most fantastical, self-contradictory fairy tales as literal truth, and these lies skew your perception of reality so much you willingly act against your own best interests, sacrificing your finite resources of time, mental energy and money on the altar of empty promises, for the ultimate enrichment of the criminals willfully exploiting you.

So that is my last word on this topic, if you can overcome your urge to reply, once again.

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