7.09.2009

Third and Unfortunately Last Poker Update

Last poker post. I promise. Then it's back to "normal" around here.

I was eliminated from the World Series of Poker late yesterday evening after more than 15 hours of play over two days. The hand on which I managed to eliminate myself was oddly and almost emblematically reflective of the declaration I made earlier, which is that I was "willing to gamble chips in certain somewhat marginal situations that mostly boil down to luck." But first, a note on how I got there -- warning: nerdy, detailed poker content follows!

I started the second day with about 60,000 chips. I ran this total to as high as 105,000 about an hour or two after the start of play, as I picked up some decent hands early and won some medium-sized pots. But that number was grdually whittled down over the course of the afternoon -- not in any one particularly dramatic fashion, but rather via a number of hands where I might put 5,000 or 10,000 into the pot as the aggressor and ran into opponents who either caught some kind of hand or were willing to pretend that they did. I don't think I played these hands badly -- if you raise before the flop with KQ (king-queen), get a caller or two, and the flop comes down something "dry" like A82, it is usually correct to put at least one more bet into the pot when checked to. Your opponents will have a very difficult time continuing unless they have an ace or a set (three of a kind) of 8's or 2's, and you will win the pot right there against both better and worse hands.

But sometimes your opponent will in fact have a decent ace or something stronger and this "good" gamble will turn out badly -- this is just one of the hundreds of forms of bad luck in poker. Of course, matters can be complicated greatly if your opponents are willing to pretend that they have an ace even when they don't -- and I may have been running into a little bit of that too. From a 'meta' perspective, my play may have appeared to lack finesse and veer too much toward the tight and predictable side. This wasn't entirely the case -- in fact, I had in fact run a couple of moderately gutsy bluffs -- the problem was that they were successful so my opponents never saw my hand. I could have showed the bluffs after my opponents folded, of course, which is usually a beginners' move, but may have been correct in this instance. In any event, it's one thing to say in the abstract that, say, "against opponents who are capable of bluffing, you sometimes have to re-bluff the bluffer", and another thing to actually find the right time to apply that principle in any particular hand at the poker table -- and another thing still for that play to work to your advantage later in the afternoon.

In any event, by the time I got to the elimination hand, I was down to slightly under 50,000 chips. I think the number was closer to 45,000, in fact, but we'll call it 47,500 because it will make the math work out conveniently down below. I was not exactly a short stack, but was well below the average of about 80,000 chips and was going to be fairly happy to take an opportunity to gamble. This was especially so after a loose, extremely poor opponent to my right had been eliminated -- I had been playing somewhat conservatively before that because I knew there was a decent chance of getting all my chips in against him as a heavy favorite.

The hand that I picked up was pair of red 9's. A fairly loose opponent -- a young kid with hairy arms and sunglasses -- made a "standard" raise of about 2,500 chips ahead of me. I re-raised him to 7,500. I'd be happy to have this opponent either fold, in which case I'd pick up a few chips at no additional risk, or call, in which case I'd have position on him after the flop with a hand I felt pretty good about. The only thing I didn't want to see was a re-raise, because my stack was short enough that I'd probably be making a decision for all my chips.

But Hairy Arms didn't get a chance to re-raise. Instead a third opponent in late position did. This was not someone I wanted to see get involved in the hand -- he was a good, fairly tight, respectful player with a big stack in late position. Moreover, with two other players already involved in the hand, both of whom had raised, it was unlikely that he was making some sort of squeeze play. This was in all probability some kind of very good to outstanding hand, and the amount of the raise was large enough as to effectively put me all-in. The hairy-armed kid folded, which left the decision up to me.

I knew I was behind the good player's range of possible hands. The question was exactly how far behind, because the pot was offering me a bit of a discount. I had roughly 40,000 chips left. If I gambled those, I had a chance to win 60,000: the 47,500 the good player had committed to the pot, the 7,500 I'd bet earlier and could now only recover by remaining in the hand, the 2,500 that Hairy Arms had abandoned, and another roughly 2,500 in blinds and antes. That meant I only had to wind up with the best hand 40 percent of the time for a call to be correct from the standpoint of maximizing my chips.

Against a larger pair like kings, queens, or aces, I'd be a heavy underdog -- winning the pot only the 20 percent of the time or so that I pulled one of the two remaining 9's out of the deck (without his hand also improving). On the other hand, I was a slight (roughly 53-55 percent) favorite against any unpaired hand like ace-king, and it's a lot easier to have an unpaired hand than a paired one. There was also a slight -- although probably extremely slight -- chance that he'd make this re-raise with a smaller pair like 88, in which case I'd be the 4:1 favorite.

The question is exactly how tight the tight player was. About the tightest I could imagine him being in this spot would be to re-raise with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and half the time with JJ and AQs (a "suited" ace queen). Against that range, I was only about 35 percent to win the pot -- less than the 40 percent I needed. (You can run these numbers yourself by downloading this program). On the other hand, suppose that his range was just slightly looser, and consisted of all pairs 88 and higher, plus AK, AQ (whether suited or not) and a suited KQ. In that case, I'd win the hand 43 percent of the time and would probably want to continue with the hand.

I recognized immediately that the decision was very close -- I needed 40 percent of the pot to play on, and had somewhere between 35-43 percent. There were a couple of additional things that I thought about. First, there is some information in the fact that the hairy-armed kid had initially raised, and then folded. Odds are that did this with a hand consisting of two unpaired high cards -- like AJ or KQ. Suppose, for instance, that this player had flipped over AJ as he'd folded. This is excellent news for me -- it means that the good opponent was only half as likely to have AA and JJ, two of the hands that I didn't want to run into -- and also, that if he had AK, he'd be less likely to hit an ace on the board and improve to beat my pair. Of course, we don't know that the hairy-armed kid had *exactly* AJ. But overall, his range of hands is worth an extra point or two's worth of equity for me by deadening my opponent's cards.

The other, more important thing I started to think about was how much "life" in the tournament was worth to me. This isn't like a cash game, where if you go bust, you can reach into to your wallet and buy more chips. Once you go broke, you have to wait a year to play again.

There are a lot of good players that would never take this sort of gamble -- their philosophy is that so long as you have a chip and a chair, you have a chance to win, and that being good players, they'll find better spots to get their money in than what is essentially a breakeven decision. There are a couple of others -- Chris Ferguson, for instance -- that treat tournament chips almost exactly as they would cash game chips and aren't willing to sacrifice very much equity at all for survival.

If I folded and opted for guaranteed survival, I'd have 40,000 chips left -- not a cripplingly low amount, but enough that I'd probably have to make another all-in decision fairly soon. There has been very little work done on the relative values of different stack sizes -- is an 80,000-chip stack worth exactly twice as much as a 40,000-chip stack? Less than twice as much? More than twice as much? Most of the theory points toward the "less than" answer, and this is almost certainly the case late in a tournament once everyone is in the money. But we were far from the cash bubble, and there is a lot more work to be done on what it means at this stage. Having a smaller stack limits your options in certain ways, but there are also elements of zugzwang in poker where having a limited set of options is helpful.

What was a little more tangible is that if I folded the hand, it probably meant I'd have to come back on play on Friday (after an off-day today) since there was only half an hour to go before that evening's session ended. There is an opportunity cost to my being out here in Vegas -- the time I spend at the poker tables is time I can't spend working on the blog, working on my book, or doing consulting projects, all of which are very demanding on my time. Moreover, the fact of the matter is that even in my off-time, it's just harder for me to get work done here than it is back at home in New York. With roughly 40,000 in chips, which is what I'd have if I'd folded, I'd probably have to at least triple and probably quadruple my stack to get into the money at the end of Day 3 -- which meant that odds were I'd wind up staying for two additional days with little tangible return to show for it.

So let's say, for instance, that I'm 38.5 percent to win against my opponent's actual range of hands when I need 40.0 percent to continue; that means my decision would be incorrect by about 1,500 tournament chips. The cash value of 1,500 tournament chips is about $500. If folding means, say, 10 additional hours of lost productivity on average, that is worth quite a bit more to me than $500.

However, it's easy to poke holes in this logic. For one thing, playing in the tournament is fun -- otherwise I would not be doing it in the first place. And while I value my time highly, it is worth nowhere near as that of some top-flight professionals like Phil Ivey, who can make literally thousands of dollars an hour on average playing cash games. For the vast majority of players, both professional and amateur, playing the tournament is more of a lifestyle decision than a cash decision.

But for better or for worse, I was thinking about these things. If things had been just slightly different -- if I had another 10,000 chips (or 10,000 fewer!), if the bad player on my right hadn't busted on the previous hand, if my hand were tens rather than nines, I wouldn't have had to think about them -- my decision would be (comparatively) easy. Maybe I was thinking about them wrongly and maybe I shouldn't have been thinking about them. But I was.

After about two minutes of contemplation, I called and went all-in for my few remaining chips, instantly regretting it, hoping for the best but expecting the worst. My opponent flipped over pocket queens, the board bricked off, and I shook his hand and went to get a beer.

79 comments

shiloh said...

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year ~ Dandy Don Meredith/MNF.

As the Brooklyn Dodger fans used to say, "Wait till next year!"

Turn out the lights the party's over, they say that all good things must end ...

take care, blessings

Juris said...

So the fat lady sang last night. Too bad, Nate, but this seems to have been a pretty interesting (if expensive) week for you. Aside from playing in the WSOP, what was the research you were doing?

BTW/ you went though all those odds and options in two minutes? Pretty interesting.

We enjoyed rooting for you.

wp: splot (what happened to you when you went all in)

STepper said...

THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!

For Phil Ivey.

Damn. I was hoping an amateur, who wasn't puffing himself, or wearing advertising for one of the poker sites, could stick it to these worthless scum who make their living by playing cards.

Tim said...

I really enjoyed the poker post Nate.

I was in the same boat when they passed the bank deposit law - although I'm sure I was playing for smaller money and with a weaker skill set. I was free-rolled by one of the poker sites. I eventually built up my bank roll to play a reasonable money limit and would just cash out from time to time, keeping enough so that I could go through a dry spell and still have plenty of chips. But, as you mentioned once the suckers left what used to be easy money got much tougher. It was fun in college, but after getting married and a job it wasn't enjoyable anymore.

It's hard because you know the tight player knows that hairy arms probably has just a good hand, and (with what he likely knows of you) that by tripling his bet and trying to isolate you probably have a very good but not great hand. He got lucky that with queens in his hand and the chips out there you were faced with an extremely tough decision. I feel like players in that situation tend to be a bit tighter, but maybe I'm wrong. Personally, I liked making that kind of play (even if I folded too much some other times) because if you've got a good hand there is a good chance the loose player will call, and the other player will get out of the way (knowing you wouldn't bluff a loose player usually). If both players fold you can pick up the pot. Or, if the good player calls you can still try to lean on them with position. It's hard to argue though with making a move when you're slightly short stacked.

Sean Gentry said...

Nate, I am a fan of both politics and poker. I loved 538 through the election, and I was pleased to hear that you had visited this years World Series. I had to come over and check out your posts. They have been very interesting.

I really appreciate you going through your thought process on your final hand. It was great hearing an math expert discuss the thought process, and the way you put your opponents on hands. Sorry to hear the other guy had the ladies, but I had him on AK or AQ. Of course, we all put them on the hand that matches our action, right?

Glad to hear you made a run.

GWOA said...

If I were in your position, I'd have made the same call 10/10 times. Sorry to hear it didn't work out, but you did the right thing, IMHO.

MikiCWSL said...

I highly enjoyed the poker posts. I've been following the Main Event online. Now that you're out I'm rooting for my man Phil Ivey. Will you play again next year?

luvrhino said...

From your description, it sounds like you were a bit liberal on his range. I don't think that a "fairly tight" player would 3-bet AQs there. In fact, with your chipstack, i'd be more inclined to flat call with AK there in order to force you to play a possible pocket pair out of position. Only if he thought you were likely doing an isolation raise to be heads-up against the looser Hairy Arms would his re-raising looser make more sense.

I admit, this is just my impression from your description...you were there and would have a better idea of playing habits.

Your opportunity costs argument is valid. However, i would think it'd be good business for 538.com to be deep in the Main Event...more so than whatever work you might have accomplished over those days.

Obviously, you know that dwelling over it isn't going to do any good. I'm still a little pissed that i made a slight math error when i busted in 17th in my PLO8 WSoP Event this year.

Hopefully, you had $10K worth of fun playing. I, along with many others, was rooting for you. I did enjoy all your poker posts with their different levels of analysis.

Amanda said...

I wonder if Sean Quinn (aka "pocket99s") still reads this site now that he's apparently no longer a contributor. I have to wonder what he would think of Nate losing on pocket nines.

The poker posts have been an interesting change of pace, and congratulations on making it as far as you did in the tournament!

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I could imagine that feeling of, damn, I shouldn't have done that, when you went all in. Been there done that myself but never in a tournament.

So, when are you going to address Rasmussen's polling of negative views of Obama being 10 percentage points higher than the next closest pollster. Is this all due to him using RV's? Does this mean There are more supporters of Obama out there that aren't registered or something?

kylexhill said...

Longtime reader, first time commenter - but I'm kind of interested in the logic of your elimination hand decision path.

Your read on the hairy-armed kid seems right and he probably had two weak overcards (such as Ace-Jack or King-Queen) You then say, of the stronger player who re-raised you:

"This is excellent news for me -- it means that the good opponent was only half as likely to have AA and JJ"

Pretend that the hairy-armed kid in fact had King-Queen; also, we know for a fact that the guy who knocked you out had two Queens. How does the content of the hairy-armed kid's hand affect the odds of you winning the hand, other than the rather marginal benefit removing a possible queen from the deck that he could use if it came as a community card? (According to twodimes.net, if one of queens is "dead" pre-flop, you go from a winning percentage of 18.6% to 20.3%... not really a huge deal given the situation.)

If you know before the hand was dealt that one of the queens wasn't going to in play, I can see where your logic makes sense; he's less likely to have been dealt a hand of pocket queens and your 99 looks better because the odds of 99 being the best hand on the table go up. But once the cards are dealt, information you may divine about one person's cards doesn't effect the cards another person has. That there's a low probability at the start of every hand that three queens - or three of any card - will be dealt in the four combined cards received by the strong and hirsute players shouldn't factor into your personal analysis of this particular hand.

Cantay said...

Being of the school that survival and variance minimization is more important than putting your chips in the middle when having an expected value negligibly greater than zero, I probably would have folded. Plus I'd have to agree with the folks who think that the marginal utility of tournament chips is diminishing.

But then, knowing me, I'd probably call half the time even after all that analysis anyway, because I am bad at stopping that nagging itch to call.

Good on you that you have the ability to dispassionately decide. I'm sorry that the result sucked. Thank you very much for all the updates.

Bryan said...

Good show nonetheless. Fun to read about all the permutations and such.

Seth said...

Okay, you lost. That's lousy. But what a great series of posts. Thanks for the time spent to really paint the picture. And I learned a bit about poker. Excellent.

Davy said...

There seems to be a fine line in poker between those who excel and those who do marginally. I've done pretty good on-line. You can usually figure out when sharks raid a table and I've played in Tahoe where I earned a lot of tourist money. It took me several hours and hands just to walk away with a few hundred dollars. I got cocky and entered a tournament and had my hat handed to me rather quickly. In those moments, poker becomes less about numbers and more about character assessment. Given Nate's circumstances, I would have made the same call. I'm impressed that you made it as long as you did.

Sam McCall said...

Kylexhill:

> But once the cards are dealt, information you may divine about one person's cards doesn't effect the cards another person has.

Yes it does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_probability

Enjoyed the poker posts, Nate! Sounds like you played well.

Davy said...

Then again, it must be nice to be able to gamble away my life's savings in one hand. 538 must be doing okay.

jorionwilliams said...

Way to try to make a run Nate. I really enjoyed your analysis of the hands. Better luck next year.

VegnaBlitz said...

You did well. Hope you had fun!

juvanya said...

I dont know two dong about poker (I'm more into blackjack), but this has been an interesting "off-topic" bit.

Jacob said...

Nate:

My apologies for being blunt, but poker players don't get enough honest feedback: you should have folded. In a tournament, you can't treat tourney chips like real $$ since the payout is only for those who get knocked out late, so your cost/benefit analysis isn't quite right. You had a decent stack size, so against a RERERAISE from a good player who almost certainly has you beat why do you want to risk everything? Fold the hand and wait for something better to come along, that's the right strategy in tournament poker.

Ryan said...

If you were going to use the whole 'how much "life" in the tournament is worth to me' logic, you probably should have at least thought about that situation BEFORE the tourney started, because this situation is bound to come up sometime. It sounds like you betrayed your poker intuition here not only with the aforementioned logic, but also by broadening your opponents range. A fascinating set of articles nonetheless, and a lesson learned hopefully as well...

Ze Ace said...

Did the cameras come around to film you. I look forward to seeing you on the TV coverage in a few weeks.

Baxter said...

you are a coward.

Kiril said...

You're a very gripping writer Nate, on both politics and poker. I've been reading your blog assiduously for over a year, and I'll probably buy whatever book comes out. Keep 'em coming!

sweetjazz3poque said...

Hey Nate, sorry to hear you didn't make it further, but it sounds like you handled yourself quite well. Recalling all your great limit hold em posts on 2+2, I knew you would prove to be a tough out.

That said, as far as strategy goes, did you consider just calling preflop with your 9s? I think that could have been a viable option because you still had plenty of chips for postflop play, despite being shortstacked relative to the field because of the good structure of the tournament.

Also, you don't mention your position at the table. I assume it was 9-handed. If the young kid raised 1st or 2nd in and you reraised say 4th in or thereabouts, I'd be giving the late position a pretty tight range because you are both showing quite a lot of strength. Also, the late position player's stack size is probably relevant; the closer his stack size is to yours (even though he covers), the less likely I would expect him to want to gamble and so the tighter his range will be, given that you seem to think he was a tight and conservative player.

All in all, I think it's not a great spot to get it in with 9s, but I understand your reasoning and I'm just disappointed you didn't get lucky and advance further (work be damned). Congrats on a great performance nevertheless, outlasting more than half the field!

Daniel said...

Wow, I wish I could think through the hands as mathematically as you do. Reading this reminded me of reading one of Harrington's books.

I've been playing free bar poker tournaments for about two or three years. From that experience, I would have folded in your situation. In my opinion it would have been better to go all in with ace high when you were down to around 30k in chips rather than call the tight player's raise. (Or go half in pre-flop and all in post flop.)

I don't think you can rely on strict mathematical decision making when you're threatened with an all in situation. It works if you had enough chips to weather the hand, but if a tight player tries to put you all in when you're not extremely short stacked, you have to figure you're already beat.

Hairy Arms probably had JT or A7 or something along those lines. The tight player's actions indicated a very strong hand. The best you could have hoped for was AK which is basically a coin flip. You should avoid as many coin flips as possible when your tournament life is on the line.

You had the right instincts though. The other thing bar poker has taught me is that it’s tough to fight the urge to leave it up to the cards when you’re coming up to a break (especially in a smoky bar). I can't wait to read about your tournament experience next year (and hopefully a good poker book by you later on...)

Tony C. said...

WRONG instinct.

Your judgment was skewed by impatience. This is the entire secret of professionals playing tourists in casinos -- Patience.

The average tourist gets average hands and must play these marginal (or bad) hands or he won't be playing at all; and he has three days or a week in Vegas and maybe eight hours to spend at the poker table. He's dyin' for a dramatic hand, and he usually gets it, because he pumps up a pair of pocket nines into something it isn't and loses half his chips to the friendly neighborhood shark.

When you start thinking about extraneous crap and excuses if you lose and your opportunity costs, you aren't playing poker anymore. You're looking for a way out. That all-in was just an, "Ahhh, fuck it, I'm tired of this shit."

What you should have done was fold, wait three hands or so, then try to bluff your 7500 chips back from pocket queens, mirroring the same betting pattern he used to take it from you.

OR, just ante up for half an hour and fold anything that isn't aces or kings, then take a vacation for a day and stop trying to fuckin' work 24/7. Go buy a $500 dinner, or play a round of golf, or blow a thousand on craps.

How many times in consulting have we seen people commission statistical studies that say their project is a bad idea and they are going to lose millions pursuing it, and then their response is, "Well, how soon can we get started?"

Sounds like this hand. If your mind cannot focus on the game, you must focus on extreme outlier hands and play nothing else. You will be throwing in some good hands, and because of that this strategy fails in the long run, but at least you won't be doing anything stupid and it limits your losses, and if you get lucky you get your chips back.

Bad Nate. Bad, Bad Nate!

Richard said...

I haven't the benefit of your mathematical analysis, but instinctively I would have put the guy on at least AK or AQ, probably a high pair. *shrug*

Rene said...

I like the pf reraise, but I really don't like your call there once the guy shoves Nate.

As you said, you need to be in the lead there 40%, which means you have to be up against AK/AQ more than 40%, and even you are barely in the lead often enough you're just coinflipping for your tourney.

First off, I think AQ is not in villain's range and if anything villain will probably flat you with AK at least some of the time. Ditto a range of pocket pairs like 77-JJ that wants to flop an overpair before committing.

IMO this means that when button shoves you're setmining with those nines and you don't have the odds to call. Just let them go and find a GOOD spot to risk your tourney on.

John said...

No offense Nate, but that is an absolutely terrible play. I have never personally been that far into the main event, but trying to rationalize that call is beneath you...I guess i don't really know what other hands you saw from this guy, or what kind of hands you played all tourney that led to this, but getting busted with mid pockets is about as rookie as it gets...Mid pockets are for raising to take blinds and ante's (and folding to reraises) or calling to catch unseen trips...The chances this guy is holding something unmade is way too small with a half hour left in the day, as most of the action from anyone but the big stacks is winding down to get to day 3...But, in reality, you made it further than expected, got to post some good stuff, so we respect you anyways, but this play was just terribel, and if you play next year, don't do it again.

Greg said...

Bad move reraising with the 99 when you are getting short to begin with, worse move CALLING all in after a rereraise as an almost guaranteed 4 to 1 dog. End of story.

PattyP said...

You thought all that in just 2 minutes? O_o

Mule Rider said...

Sorry we didn't get the chance to play against one another. Fortunately for me, I'm still alive in the WSOP.

salt_bagel said...

I agree with some of the later commenters here: That is an automatic fold in any place, unless it's your home game playing for nickels against your baby niece. What were the blinds at that point? You said a standard raise was 2500, so I would expect that the blinds were what, 500-1000? Even if you were due for a blind increase soon, you'd still be sitting with a fair chance to grab a small pot or go for a double up in a position where you weren't flat beat, which was dead obvious.

Your error here wasn't odds, and it wasn't even your own estimation of how risk-prone or risk-averse you should be for your skill set. It's that you misjudged where you were in the tournament and your chip stack. You knew you were beat in the hand, but you kept telling yourself that there was some time that you have to eventually lay it out there in a marginal situation. You then convinced yourself that this was a marginal situation, when in fact, it was a losing situation. You had enough chips to tighten up and get through to a better spot.

Also, to tie this in with the beginning of the post, I would advise you to tighten your starting hands in general. You talked about raising with KQ, when in fact, you should be raising this only as a straight steal in late position, or maybe in blind v. blind situations. The other time to be playing this type of hand would be if you had been a chip leader and were trying to push around shorter stacks.

Jeff Jacot said...

I like being a stat & numbers geek about these things (which is what draws me to 528 in the first place). Very rough calculations based on number left at the end of yesterday and payout schedules give you a tournament equity (amount of the pot that is likely "yours") of 0.026% if you fold and 0.049% if you call and win. That means that, at this point, you can play it almost like a cash game (doubling up chips nearly doubles their value).

Now, you make a valid point that you are giving up 2 days of work and life if you make the end of the day. Most of the previous posters aren't accounting for this. So, in terms of money, you have either 0.026% equity of the $64,000,000 in payouts (about $16,640) if you fold, or a 35% chance (at most, let's be honest that your read was probably too loose) at a 0.049% equity ($31,360) which comes out to about $11,000. The call thus lost you a little over $5,500.

So, is 2 days off the blog & your consulting worth $5,500? Probably iffy.

RWD said...

No way would I have made that call. I'm a pretty tight player in when I play in cash tournaments, so I often err on the side of folding, especially when a good player raises like that.

Interestingly, in our games, the guy who does the most detailed mathematical analysis is often the first out. He convinces himself the odds are in his favor to be extremely aggressive, and maybe they are, but it seems that he ends up busting every time.

PeteKent said...

Nate lost because his heart wasn't in it and he ceased belieivng in himself.

Here is the "tell": "That meant I only had to wind up with the best hand 40 percent of the time for a call to be correct from the standpoint of maximizing my chips."

Searching for a statistical answer our host neglected to remember the crucial role that luck plays in these matters.

Nate knew that with his short stack he was going to have to go all in again soon. His logic and calculation is faultless, but the results don't add up.

He should have waited for a better hand that what he had to go all in on and enjoyed a little more play.

I mean, compared to a poker tourney like that, what was he coming home to?

petekent01 (on twitter)

Juris said...

@Jeff: I suppose I might look at it another way, and that would be in terms of the odds of cashing. At the end of Day 2, the field had been reduced to about 1700 -- i.e., by nearly 75% from the initial ca. 6500.

To cash a player needed to be in the top 648 players, and the minimal cash amount was about $20,000. Yes, if he had managed to get to the final 648, he might go higher, but if he was figuring out the most likely payout from getting well into Day 3, it would be about $20K. And that would cover his buy-in and expenses, though perhaps not the opportunity costs of spending several more days there instead of doing other work.

Now you can calculate this better than I can, but I would guess the risk/reward of hanging in there, assuming a short stack to begin with on Day 3, was higher than you imply.

salt_bagel said...

@Jeff Jacot: I see what you're saying, but I don't think it has to go that far. If this were an Equity of Work versus Equity of Playing argument, then you shouldn't be in the tourney in the first place.

It could go on ad infinitum. What is the expected negative return when working every day cuts into your healthy lifespan?

And from a strict poker point of view, a 35% chance of winning that hand is way too generous. Even before the cards are shown.

Andrew said...

The real error here is a common one: the WSOP main event is a very deep-stacked tournament. It doesn't matter where 40,000 chips (after the fold) ranks relative to the rest of the field; it matters how those chips compare to the blinds and antes. That's what enables you to stick around and pick a better spot.

So when Nate says, "If I folded and opted for guaranteed survival, I'd have 40,000 chips left -- not a cripplingly low amount, but enough that I'd probably have to make another all-in decision fairly soon." -- that's simply incorrect. Nate has an M of about 30 here, meaning he can stick around for another 30 orbits before blinding out. That's not only a big enough stack to pick your spot, it's big enough to permit you to make plays in position.

Fred said...

Hi Nate. Active poker pro here.

I can't measure your opportunity cost, but by all other measures this is 100% a fold. A guy in a non-steal position opened, you, a tight guy with a short stack, reraised. The third guy in "late position" -- not the blinds -- 4bets, and he is both tight and solid. That's a very poor 4bet without QQ+ AKs really because of your presence in the hand. JJ would probably be behind your reraising range, and there are still the blinds left to act, as well as hairy arms guy who can still have a hand. Run some sims using stoxEV modeling this scenario and you'll see what I mean. Your chip EV vs a range of QQ+ AKs is quite poor.

And that's just looking at chip EV. Are you familiar with Independent Chip Model calculations? ICM boils down to chips in a tournament having smaller and smaller marginal utility as you get more of them; doubling your stack leads to less than double your tournament equity. The disparity is particularly large when you near the bubble, but it's present at all times unless you are down to two players. What this means is that when the possible outcomes are doubling up or busting out, you need a substantially bigger edge in the hand than you would need in a cash game to make a play.

Here's a link to a variant of ICM useful for larger tourneys: http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue52/Alix-Martin-Stack-Equities-Multi-Table-Tournaments.php

Valpey said...

I agree with some of the posters above that the call was a mistake and we may be hearing a bit of rationalizing, but I'm not going to berate you for it. I can't really imagine the degree to which fatigue is in effect here. I've played limit hold 'em games at casinos for twelve hours straight and that is quite a grind in spite of being completely without the pressure these stakes bring with them. So don't beat yourself up about it but do take it as a lesson learned. I hope you had fun.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

84% of Scientists Believe Global Warming is man made via PEW Study


I understand there is so much mis-information out there regarding global warming. Because of this I ask you read the recent PEW study showing 84% of scientists believe global warming is man made.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1550

The public must be informed. This is no longer a laughing matter.

Fred said...

A good way to think about these preflop spots where your tourney life is at stake is that the toy game that you're playing is chicken. So when the other guy commits to the pot, i.e. tears out his steering column and heads straight towards you, the payouts are not favorable for you and you should almost always get out of his way.

Daniel said...

Just to clarify my comment, I think Nate's instinct was to fold, but he talked himself into believing he might be ahead when a two outer scenario was much more likely.

Here's something to think about next year: The longer it takes you to make a decision, the more likely it is that you should fold...

Anyway, good job. I hope you had fun out there.

J.D. said...

I'd have to say that I think you made the wrong move in that situation. I get your mindset, and even appreciate the numbers game, but the only thing that you had to look at was the three-better. If he had been playing tight... why would he have raised a two-bet at that point with a marginal hand, or bluff? It should have been obvious that he was playing a top 5 hand.

You sound like you're pretty knowledgeable about the game, and I like that. But here's what I think about your situation. When you have well-below the chip average, with the blinds still relatively small to what you have left, you play only the top 5 hands.

When you see that everyone is starting to tighten up, because the day is winding down, or simply because the money is close... you start playing top 10 hands.

While I understand what you were saying about the pay out, and the worth of another two-three days of being in L.V., you and I know, as poker players, it's not about winning the money back. It's not about the money you lose. It's about being able to say "I cashed at the WSOP. I am one of the best poker players in the world, this year".

All that being said, at least you didn't go out on a complete donkey play. Congrats on making it as far as you did.

Sacto Joe said...

IMHO, the bottom line is that you thought the guy was most likely bluffing and he wasn't. That's legit.

However, I don't buy the "opportunity cost" argument - if you weren't prepared to "spend" the time, you shouldn't have been in the game. That makes you seem like a dilettante.

My advice; next time, don't commit unless you're ready to take it all the way. That's actually pretty good advice in general.

So if you learned that lesson playing a game and having fun, then you MORE than got your money's worth!

Mule Rider said...

The longer it takes you to make a decision, the more likely it is that you should fold...

That's one of my golden rules for playing poker. Well said. There is definitely an inverse relationship between the length of time it takes to make a decision about staying in a hand and the actual business you have staying in said hand.

Y'all go easy on Nate, though. While I agree folding pocket 9s would have been a good move - and one I would have almost certainly made because I'm that tight - it's too easy to come back later and harangue someone on the finer points of poker theory when you have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

RWD said...

Wow, Mule Rider and Pete Kent with non-hostile, intelligent posts. Maybe poker brings out the best in everyone.

rramstad said...

Now casual player, once was fairly serious (before all the fish online went away) and I have to agree with the "fold, no question" people.

If I'm the third guy and I've been playing tight, I see the first guy in from early position, I see a fairly big raise from the second guy in middle position, and I go "damn, middle position is always rough, that first guy probably has a low pocket pair or maybe AK, so the second guy must have a hell of a hand" and then I look down.

I'm only calling here if I've got a monster hand like AA in the hope I can get someone into deep water. I'm only reraising on a steal OR if I've got something that's going to beat everyone if I can get some folds i.e. I don't want to lose to two players each playing AJ and KQ or something like that when overcards come.

If I have QQ, I'm reraising to protect my hand and hoping I get one of you to play. If you both fold, that's OK, I'd rather have that outcome than lose to AJ on the flop.

I think the error here is that you did not think enough about how the table looked from the position of the third player, and what kinds of hands he could legitimately reraise with.

Essentially by calling you were indicating that you thought he was on a naked bluff... that's the only legitimate reason to call, and you said he was a tight good player.

In a tournament, you want to avoid coin flip scenarios until you are pretty much on the verge of elimination, and it sounds to me that you were quite a bit away from that point.

I've managed in a very small game (started out nine handed) with everyone at T2000 to come back and win from having only T60 to my name with five players left... now, that's an odd situation, but it's not totally unusual, I got three hands to hold up in a row, and then within a couple more rounds got a couple great hands. It happens... if you are still playing...

Love the post, and better luck next year!

Michael said...

Are the Sarah Palin banner ads on this site really going to raise any money? The single stupidest Google Algorithm they have ever created put those ads on here.

Ole Forsberg said...

@liberal_defender_of_freedom

This brings up a very interesting question: How is "scientist" defined by Pew? Are these just climatologists or does it include anyone who calls themselves a scientist. If the latter, I am not sure that a sociologist has any special insight into global climate change.

BTW: I looked, but could not find an answer to this question.

litterbug said...

Michael, perhaps the algorithm assumes that even Palin's detractors might click through out of morbid curiosity.

Nate, I watched televised coverage and watched for you but no go. I'm unsure why I love WSOP so much, as I've never played so much as a penny game.

Were you anywhere near Hellmuth during his breakdown the other night? Too bad he was able to talk his way out of the nine hand penalty.

Ole Forsberg said...

BTW: I should have looked harder:

""
A sample of 9,998 members was drawn from the AAAS membership list excluding those who were not based in the United States or whose membership type identified them as primary or secondary-level educators.

Founded in 1848, AAAS is the world’s largest general scientific society, and includes members representing all scientific fields. AAAS publishes Science, one of the most widely circulated peer-reviewed scientific journals in the world. Membership in AAAS is open to all.
""

So, a 'scientist' is a member of AAAS. My second question still holds, however.

Jeff Jacot said...

@salt_bagel Great point about the equity of playing vs. equity of everything else.

Chris said...

Some tough love for Nate here.

I certainly agree with much of the poker commentary and fear sounding like an "unprofessional" poker player, but - anyone who's played a home game with too-slow blind raises can tell you sometimes you're willing go for a coin flip because you just. can't. take. any. more ...

Chekmate said...

I thought the poker fatigue may have gotten to Nate when he said "Third" poker update, because I could only find two under the "poker" label, but then I clicked on "gambling" and remembered his pre-flight post. Nice articles, Nate, I eat this kind of stuff right up.

ianthegood said...

Nate, I loved this post. However, I have to disagree with your logic. Your math is accurate as always, but I think you need to look at the hand from the "good player's" perspective.

He being a good player was able to read you (and Harry Arms) just as well (or better) than you can read him. Therefore, he knew from your bet that you had a medium pocket or suited A-face (K, Q). He probably thought there was a small chance you could be underplaying a high pocket, but considering you rely heavily on the math (which this guy probably picked up on), he knew it was not likely.

There are three possibilities here:
A) He believes he has the best hand and either wants to win the pot to not get out drawn or make the pot worth taking the risk to take out an opponent.
B) He isn't sure he has the best hand but wants to try and "buy" the pot knowing he has position and a decent stack.
C) He doesn't think he has the best hand and is bluffing.

I would give the odds (based on what you said in the story) as 75, 23, 2 (respectively). He is a good player and knows that risking B with two raisers is something only to do "occasionally" and bluffing with two raisers is "very rare" especially with you being low stacked and needing to push soon.

I would also say that in scenario B, you might have the winning hand about half to two thirds of the time. I doubt he would risk this situation with less than AK suited, and probably nothing less than pocket 7s.

So looking at it from his hand and eveluating how he would play in differnt senarios, I would guess you really only had a 15-20% chance of not being seriously down (only 20% odds of winning the hand). Even if you 80% odds when you are up (15-20% from above), you only had about 30% odds on the hand at best. But that is the estimate of a Monday night quarterback. Well done anyway!

mbodell said...

I don't like the poker play.

Moreover, if the guy folding earlier does have AJ this is bad news for you. Him having AJ move the number of possible AK from 16 to 12, while moving the number of AA from 6 to 3. And if you consider AQ in his range you also go from 16 to 12 on that. So the early person folding an A is bad for you (I.e., if you saw him flash you an A as he folded, you should be more likely to fold, not less).

Moreover against an early raise and reraise for a tight player I think AQs is not in the range. I'm not even sure AK is in the range. A tight player will have KK+ or QQ+. A slightly looser player will have JJ+,AK. Remember you are seeing a raise, a reraise, and then this move. That is very strong.

airhawk86 said...

Honestly, this makes me question whether Nate is actually a good poker player. This wasn't really a good play. I mean really, that is a situation you can't be calling with a marginal 99 with. On a reraise its either AK (Nate a 55/45 favorite) or NAte is domianted. Dominated is much more likely. Math says you need 3.5 to 1 odds to call there. you didn't have them, and your done.

Goadfish said...

Tight guy 4-bets and you get it in with 99? I didn't know the main event became a hyper-turbo...

Dr Zen said...

The threebet is bad and calling off your stack was terrible. He is never showing up with AQ and if he's a good online player and realises you are tight, he's not all that likely to have AK either. I wouldn't. Easy fold, but hey, if you fish never made a bad call, there'd be no money in poker.

R-Boy said...

It's a bad play from Nate and a bad justification because he's not including information he had going in. I won a 150 person, 100-dollar buy-in tourney 5 years ago, and at one point in the tournament I WAS the short stock. But, because I'm used to being a grinder on the tables, I waited, picked my spot, and kept alive.

Nate had to have know he was drawing dead. Given his chip situation and his commitment to play the hand, he should have gone all-in after the loose raise. With a short stack calling such a raise, you're sending a signal that youre not that confident in your hand but you'd go all in.

Queens would still call, assuming he had a good many more chips than Nate. But there are better odds he doesnt

jim said...

Three rather obvious points:
1) Nate clearly doesn't have the magic number of 10,000 hours of poker practice that he needs to be competitive in this environment.
2) If you actually consider the "cost" of playing another day in the world's most popular poker tournament, you don't belong there in the first place.
3) Like lots of amateurs, he over-thought his last hand as it was simply a binary decision: stay in and likely bust out or fold and keep playing.

Cubicle Warrior said...

What a donkey

David said...

Nate,

Enjoyed your post. For the record, your mistake in the hand was your reraise preflop, where you made a limit Hold 'Em play in a No Limit Hold 'Em tournament. Your stack size in relation to the raise (47,500 to a 2,500 initial raise) made your hand a pretty standard flat-call. Nines in this spot are good for one of two things: set-mining (where you'd prefer the stacks to be deep in relation to the post-flop pot) and winning small-to-medium sized pots when your pair holds up against two overcards. Initiating a preflop shootout turns your situation into a very very marginal one.

Once someone cold four-bets you, it's time to dump your hand. Your opponent's range is going to be QQ+ and AK, meaning playing for stacks is break-even at best. Depending on how your opponent treats AK in this spot, you may not even have that much value here.

My advice to you would be to make your choices with a plan in mind. Before you make a reraise like the one you made in this hand, you need to think about whether or not you're comfortable playing nines for all your chips if someone shoves over the top of you. If you're not, don't commit yourself with a three-bet.

noiseboy1970 said...

Calling the 4bet was only a very small mistake due to the pot odds. There were two big mistakes in the hand:

1) Thinking you were short-stacked--although you had only half of an average stack, the blinds were still relatively small in relation to your stack, so there was no need to play a large pot with a marginal hand.

2) Reraising with the 99 was likely a mistake, with a 50BB stack, 99 still has plenty of implied odds and if you flop an overpair you can try to use position postflop to win a small pot but still get away if your opponent has you crushed. On dry boards, you can also smooth call your opponent on the flop and see if he checks the turn in which case a small bluff takes down the pot, or if you get lucky and your hand improves you might stack him.

When you get shortstacked, you are forced to make more moves and basically pretend that hands like 99 and AQo are the nuts, but you aren't really there yet until you get below 20BBs or so.

If you are interested in playing deepstacked tournaments, I would pick up Daniel Negreanu's "Power Holdem Strategy" which is the best treatise on the small ball style which most of the best pro players in the world use. Negreanu, Ivey, Mizrachi, Hellmust, Hansen, they all use a variation of small ball.

The math supports it because it reduces variance and takes advantage of position (and thus being able to control pot size) and it allows you to exploit your opponents postflop. In other words, since you are playing most of your pots in position you are always playing with more information than your opponents. You play their hands more than the cards you hold. Since I started learning this style, I've won about 40K in two months (admittedly been running a little hot too, but I've avoided many spots that old me would've busted).

Anyway, I busted on an optional move that I could have passed up on also, so don't feel too bad.

noiseboy1970 said...

One more thing, you always hear tournament pros talk about how they will sometimes "wait for a better spot." The thing is most players raise too much preflop because they are afraid of playing postflop. What the best pros do is they play more hands than the average player, but they raise with all of them. They can get away with this by raising smaller like 2.5BB or less and they do it with their entire range. Imagine how hard it is to play against someone who could literally have ANY two cards when they raise.

My main point is this, rather than commit to 99, at your stack size you could try to steal the blinds and antes 5 times for the cost of reraising with the 99. Maybe you get caught raising with 35suited under-the-gun, so what? If they reraise you, you simply fold, if they smooth call then you still have a chance to hit a huge and well-disguised hand on the flop and maybe stack an opponent who can't put you on a straight when the flop comes 4-6-7 or trips when it comes K-5-5. If you keep your raise size small, the steal value alone will pay for the raise if it works about half the time.

Then lets say an opponent calls from one of the blinds, hands only connect with the flop about a third of the time so mostly everyone misses most flops. When you raise with your entire range of hands including a certain number of trashy ones, you end up playing a lot more pots heads up with position and initiative. So what happens is you get to see what your opponent does before you act. More information means you are always playing with the advantage.

Opus Option said...

All in with 9s? What a donk. Stick to sticking the rich for the cost of health insurance for obese people. Oh, and thanks for the higher interest rates under Obama.

Michael said...

I think some people have forgotten that Nate is not an average amateur and does not need to be lectured about basic poker concepts. After all, he did play poker for a living for a pretty long time, and was a prolific 2p2 poster.

Despite being a limit holdem cash game player, he is still a very heavy favorite over the majority of posters here in a no limit tournament. See Matt Hawrilenko (hoss_tbf)

drkamikaze said...

Sorry, Nate. Another poker pro here. I have to agree with the others above and say this is an easy, easy fold. A 4-bet not from the blinds, from a strong player (and not a maniac), gives you a range of a big pair plus maybe AK (but probably not). Certainly AQ is not in the range, as any decent player would insta-muck AQ there.

The value of your tournament life, plus the fact that you are so far behind his range, makes folding 100% the right move.

But lets say that you did have 40% equity in the hand. I know you said you would be willing to risk it on a gamble. However, this is a very common error in many players' games. As you know, it is not a cash game, and the calculation of pot odds for all of your chips is just not the same thing as when you can rebuy.

Please, please reconsider folding when you think you are getting such a price in the future.

NY Expat said...

@David, FTW. If you call the $2,500, you have $45,000 left with a pot of $6,500 and position (we don't know about the QQ yet). By raising to $7,500, if the kid calls you'll have $40,000 and a pot of $16,500, at which point any bet you make on the flop will put you in a very nasty situation if he then goes all-in.

It sucks that a top ten(?) hand is reduced to set-mining/bluff catching, but so be it.

The only difficulty with a call is what to do when QQ raises, as you won't have odds or position to set-mine. The way the hand played out here, though, it's a clear fold. Someone above mentioned the position of the rereraiser, and that was what swayed me when I read your account. If a good player is forfeiting their positional advantage by going all-in, that likely means they've got the goods pre-flop.

Jimmy McD said...

Nate, your math and tournament theory was spot on though it was frustrating to see that your understanding of the meta game was 2 years out of date (understandable as that was the last time you were a regular in the player pool).

My two quibbles were a) better player don't fold as much on an A82 rainbow flop anymore. Everyone expects people to continuation bet their entire range there so they float, bluff raise and call down with marginal holdings like 99. It takes at least 2 bets and sometimes 3 to win on that flop texture a lot. Its higher variance but if you bet, it has to be with the intention of betting again and not a one and done type thing.

b) your cold 4-bet range assigned in your bust out hand was too wide. The 4-bettor has some air in his range, but his value range looks pretty much like QQ+ and maybe AK. Also most people don't balance well in that spot and have nearly as much air as they should. I was reading all your analysis and nodding, except when you got to assigning your equity it was probably closer to 25-30% against his range than the optimistic 35-45% you gave yourself.

J&D said...

A片下載|成人影片下載|免費A片下載|日本A片|情色A片|免費A片|成人影城|成人電影|線上A片|A片免費看

米蘭情趣用品|情趣用品|情趣|飛機杯|自慰套|充氣娃娃|AV女優.按摩棒|跳蛋|潤滑液|角色扮演|情趣內衣|自慰器|穿戴蝴蝶|變頻跳蛋|無線跳蛋|電動按摩棒|情趣按摩棒|

den said...

Jesus Christmas ... 10 words into your re-raise manifesto it was a clear fold situation. No one of quality poker skills ever, ever, EVER goes over raise/re-raise players preflop with A-K, A-Q or any other non-pair. Nor do they do so with anything smaller than Jacks.

The only way a solid player does that without having a wired pair J-J or better is if he has been bone-dry for hours, has had his stack all but vanish and feels the need to make a move while there are chips in the pot.

Easiest fold ever. You must have been tired, desperate or both.

goodeda1122 said...

自慰套,自慰套,自慰器,情趣,情趣,視訊交友,充氣娃娃,AV,按摩棒,電動按摩棒,情趣按摩棒,按摩棒,跳蛋,跳蛋,跳蛋,男女,潤滑液,SM,情趣內衣,內衣,性感內衣,角色扮演,角色扮演服,吊帶襪,丁字褲,情趣用品,情趣用品,飛機杯,自慰套

酒店上班請找艾葳 said...

艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 飯局小姐,領檯人員,領台,傳播妹,或者想要到台北酒店林森北路酒店,私人招待所,或者八大行業酒店PT,酒店公關,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的禮服酒店,鋼琴酒吧酒店領檯,酒店小姐,公關小姐??,還是想去制服店上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作兼差打工假日兼職兼職工作學生兼差兼差打工兼差日領工作晚上兼差工作酒店工作酒店上班酒店打工兼職兼差兼差工作酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作特種行業內容,想找打工假日兼職兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!

艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚,無業績壓力,無脫秀無喝酒壓力,高層次會員制客源,工作輕鬆,可日領現領
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已,對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有!艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪,不需擔心!只提供最優質的酒店打工,酒店上班,酒店打工環境、上班條件給水水們。

水水們妳有缺現金、有卡債缺錢卡奴的煩腦嗎?想到日本留學日本打工嗎?妳是工讀生找工作??想要擁有高時薪又輕鬆的夜間兼職工作,打工機會和,假日打工,兼職工作日領假日打工的機會嗎??想實現夢想卻又缺錢沒錢嗎!??整天還在煩腦如何賺錢有什麼賺錢方法,和賺錢最快方法!?,想要打工,日領工作,短期打工,兼差工作,打工兼差工作嗎!?,
請加入我們艾葳酒店經紀公司工作單純輕鬆”高時薪”又可日領徵想要當傳播妹,上班小姐,酒店兼差,酒店兼職,歡迎學生打工,!!!
加入我們實現夢想就從現在開始^__^

freefun0616 said...

酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,