Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Taxing the Rich: The (Politically) Smart Way to Pay for Health Care

7.11.2009

Taxing the Rich: The (Politically) Smart Way to Pay for Health Care

The big news on the health care front this weekend is that House Democrats are prepared to call for a tax increase on the highest-earning Americans in order to pay for expanded health insurance. Although accounts of the exact details differ slightly, it appears that the tax hike would take the form of a "surcharge" of 1 percent on incomes from $280,000 to $400,000, 1.5 percent on incomes of $400,000 to $800,000 and 3 percent on incomes of $800,000 and above. This means that someone making $500,000 would pay about an extra $2,700 in taxes each year, and someone making $1,000,000 would pay an extra $13,200. The burden, in other words, would fall disproportionately on those who earn not just in the six figures, but rather in the seven figures, for whom much more of their income would become subject to the 3 percent rate.

I applaud the House for recognizing that the world doesn't end at $250,000 or $357,700 (the beginning of the top marginal income tax bracket as of last year). Throughout most of American history before Reagan, the top tax bracket kicked in at figures much higher than $357,700 in today's income: the equivalent of about $75 million in today's dollars, for example, during portions of FDR's presidency.

I also think the House has probably found the path of least resistance in terms of marshaling public support for financing health care. In June, the Kaiser Health Tracking Poll asked Americans about seven different mechanisms to pay for health care. The one solution that Kaiser missed was that of a national sales tax, so for that I use data from Rasmussen Reports instead, who ran a May poll indicating that 40 percent of Americans would support a national sales tax if it paid for health insurance. Increasing taxes on incomes of $250,000+ was supported by 68 percent of Americans in the Kaiser poll, tying it with increased cigarette and booze taxes for the most popular option:



Why pick the income tax hike rather than higher cigarette and alcohol taxes, which are just as popular? For one thing, it's not clear that higher cigarette and alcohol taxes alone would be enough to finance health care; they were generally being considered along with other funding mechanisms. For another, alcohol and particularly cigarette taxes would be quite regressive. For a third, we have to consider the political fallout from a tax once it actually hits taxpayers, and not just when it's in the proposal phase. Joe Six Pack might not think it's a horrible idea in the abstract to increase the price of beer, but when he's actually paying extra for his case of Michelob Ultra, he might not be so happy about it.

We should point out that raising taxes on the wealthy is probably not the most economically sound way to pay for health care, which would be to limit or remove the benefits tax exemption and tax benefits like all other types of earned income. This alternative, however, is considerably less popular and is opposed by many unions, who have generally negotiated very attractive benefits programs for their employees. In a perfect world, of course, these things wouldn't be mutually exclusive: you could remove the benefits tax exemption and make the tax code more progressive. But practically speaking, trying to do both those things might just give more people a reason to be unhappy. The surcharge proposed by Charlie Rangel and the House Democrats at least has the benefit of being simple.

The one thing the Democrats ought to be aware of, however, is that if this proposal is passed, it will probably become more difficult later on to repeal the Bush tax cuts for high-income earners. Raising taxes is always difficult, and I'm not sure the Democrats will get more than one bite at the apple, at least until/unless Barack Obama is re-elected in 2012 and has some fresh political capital. But this proposal, overall, is probably more attractive than repealing the Bush tax cuts, since it focuses more of the burden on $800K+ earners.

I'd expect the Republicans to begin arguing more vociferously that the right way to pay for health care is indeed to remove the benefits tax exemption. As I mentioned, they are on somewhat solid economic grounds for doing so. In reality, however, removing the benefits tax exemption is more of a political poison pill, a fairly unpopular policy which the Democrats would probably be blamed for later on.

Whether the Democrats can get enough Blue Dog votes to pass health insurance is another matter. The Blue Dogs tend to be split into two camps: the populist Blue Dogs, who usually hail from rural areas, and who are generally somewhat socially conservative but more economically liberal; they will probably have no great problems with this. Then there are the corporatist Blue Dogs, who tend to represent wealthier, suburban districts and are more libertarian in their ideology. Some resistance from that latter group is likely, although that would probably be the case regardless of what mechanism was selected to finance health care.

The bottom line is that the House wants to pay for health care in a way that almost 7 in 10 Americans can live with. That doesn't mean its passage is going to be easy -- but the bill won't fail for its lack of public popularity.

118 comments

Yoman82 said...

Legalize non-date-rape drugs, and tax them (As well as regulate them). This would provide more liberties and more revenue.

Bart DePalma said...

Clinton raised the top marginal rate in 1993 and it brought in half of CBO's projection and slowed economic growth.

Folks, the top 20% are already paying for nearly all of the federal government general fund. That horse was ridden one time too often some time ago. It is no surprise that half of the Obama Administration that falls into those brackets were evading taxes,

Interestingly, when Obama was lecturing the Africans on governance, he asked rhetorically what business would set up shop in Africa if the government was skimming 20% off the top. Our businesses can only dream of a day our government would only skim 20%.

Bradford said...

Agree completely Nate. Tax the rich and get some revenue to get us out of this deficit.

I would also be for legalizing marijuana and sports gambling to raise money.

STepper said...

How about a national lottery? You want to talk about sin taxes? Why not get into the sin business in a bigger way.

Of course, that would compete with state lotteries, but I suspect a national lottery (with winnings exempt from state and federal taxes) would generate $350B a year.

Daniel said...

Clinton raised the top marginal rate in 1993 and it brought in half of CBO's projection and slowed economic growth.

Really. Well, I suppose that explains why we were running big defecits at the end of his presidency and then W came in, cut taxes, and we started seeing big surpluses. What's that? Oh, right. Clinton had surpluses by the end of his presidency and Bush was responsible for our economy going down the toilet.

But don't let facts get in the way.

geedeck said...

Wait, so we just have to make people who make more than $1m pay an extra $13200/year? That's pocket change at that level, and keep in mind it'll likely make their health care better too, so there's probably a reasonable argument that some of that money will return in the form of health care utility.

Do it. I think the trickle down effect will greatly benefit everyone, including those in the highest bracket. Those are the business owners, so they'll have healthier, more efficient employees when they can be guaranteed health care. I don't think rich people realize how many chronic conditions that poor/uninsured people are living with. Not to mention the people who have to default on loans or go bankrupt due to medical bills.

I really can't be more enthusiastic about this plan, especially with the inclusion of a public plan.

Til said...

I don't follow the part about repealing the Bush tax cuts. First, they expire except to the extent legislation is passed to extend them, and second, they expire long before the 2012 election.

harold said...

Bart De Palma -

Clinton raised the top marginal rate in 1993 and it brought in half of CBO's projection and slowed economic growth.text

Clinton hurt the economy and Bush helped it?

Folks, the top 20% are already paying for nearly all of the federal government general fund.text

That irrelevant fact reflects the way wealth is distributed, but says nothing whatsoever about whether top earners can afford to pay more, or what the impact of their paying more will be.

That horse was ridden one time too often some time ago.text

What planet are you living on? The top marginal tax rate, and the threshold for being in it, have both been dropping for years (meaning that very high income people pay only the same marginal rate as the six figure upper middle class). High income people are paying fewer taxes now than at almost any time since WWII.

Do you really think that the fifties was a terrible time for the wealthy? They paid far more taxes then.

It is no surprise that half of the Obama Administration that falls into those brackets were evading taxes,text

That's right, it's no surprise that high achievers find their way into a presidential administration. Tax evasion is depressingly common in all brackets (and tends to be, no matter how low taxes are set). Neither of those is relevant here.

Interestingly, when Obama was lecturing the Africans on governance, he asked rhetorically what business would set up shop in Africa if the government was skimming 20% off the top.text

Do you understand the difference between illegal pre-tax revenue skimming (almost certainly technically illegal in the vast majority of African countries), and a legal post-expense tax on earnings? This comment suggests that you don't.

Our businesses can only dream of a day our government would only skim 20%.text

No, apparently you don't. You also don't seem to understand that this post is talking about a personal income tax policy. Corporate income tax isn't the issue.

If "lower taxes" are always better, why don't Republicans just propose reducing all taxation to zero right away? That would be the logical way to go.

nick said...

And here I was all excited thinking I'd get my Senate rankings today.

mark said...

Yeah, sersously Nate I think we need those senate rankings pretty soon. I mean its the MONTHLY senate rankings...not the month and a half rankings. I would appreciate if you would make the senate rankings. This site made one article, with several contributors, in the entire day! Does you holding off on the senate rankings have anything to do with Mr. Kirk still deciding if he will run for senate. If so could you please clarify that.

Matt said...

Nate,
Joe Six Pack might not think it's a horrible idea in the abstract to increase the price of beer, but when he's actually paying extra for his case of Michelob Ultra, he might not be so happy about it.

Why would Joe Six Pack be buying a case? Has he somehow forgotten his own name?

Bart DePalma said...

Daniel said...

Clinton raised the top marginal rate in 1993 and it brought in half of CBO's projection and slowed economic growth.

Really. Well, I suppose that explains why we were running big defecits at the end of his presidency and then W came in, cut taxes, and we started seeing big surpluses. What's that? Oh, right. Clinton had surpluses by the end of his presidency and Bush was responsible for our economy going down the toilet.


1) The federal government was in deficit until Clinton signed off on the Gingrich balanced budget legislation slowing down the growth of government below that of the economy.

2) Clinton was a fiscal conservative compared to Dubya, who spent like a drunken Dem. Dubya was the poster boy for fiscal irresponsibility until Mr. Obama came along.

3) The only economic policy area where Bush was superior to Clinton was keeping marginal tax rates down. Clinton raised marginal tax rates (although not as much as the GOP complained), the economy slowed and revenue growth decreased. Bush cut marginal tax rates, the economy took off and tax revenues rose at double digit rates.

4) The mess we are in now arose from a failure of the Clinton and Bush Administrations to socialize home ownership by extending mortgages to the non-creditworthy.

Bart DePalma said...

harold said...

BD: Folks, the top 20% are already paying for nearly all of the federal government general fund.

That irrelevant fact reflects the way wealth is distributed, but says nothing whatsoever about whether top earners can afford to pay more, or what the impact of their paying more will be.


1) The top twenty percent of earners lose a far higher percentage of their income to personal and corporate income taxes than do the lowest 50%.

2) This is an equitable argument. The US have the most progressive and unfair national tax system among the advanced economies. While the wealthy pay a somewhat higher percentage of income in the EU, the middle class and poor pay a far higher percentage of their income to support their welfare states. The American lower middle class pays next to nothing to pay for government services they enjoy while the poor are actually paid through EITC.

BD: That horse was ridden one time too often some time ago

What planet are you living on? The top marginal tax rate, and the threshold for being in it, have both been dropping for years (meaning that very high income people pay only the same marginal rate as the six figure upper middle class). High income people are paying fewer taxes now than at almost any time since WWII.


The wealthy are paying the highest percentage of total federal government taxes in modern history. When a country coerces a small minority to pay for benefits the entire society enjoys, then the unfairly taxed slow their wealth creation, evade taxes or move away. Capital is fungible and can be moved to more hospitable business climates.

Do you really think that the fifties was a terrible time for the wealthy? They paid far more taxes then.

The 50s were actually only a fat time in comparison to the Great Depression. We suffered frequent and deep recessions until the Kennedy/Johnson marginal tax rate reductions of 1964 gave the economy a boost.

BD: It is no surprise that half of the Obama Administration that falls into those brackets were evading taxes.

That's right, it's no surprise that high achievers find their way into a presidential administration.


The Dems always miss the irony here. The Dems live primarily in high cost of living urban areas and must make more absolute income to simply match the standard of living in less expensive areas. However, our unfair tax system does not take in account cost of living and urban Dems are completely hosed with high tax rates. Obama chose nearly his entire cabinet from this demographic group.

BD: Interestingly, when Obama was lecturing the Africans on governance, he asked rhetorically what business would set up shop in Africa if the government was skimming 20% off the top.text

Do you understand the difference between illegal pre-tax revenue skimming (almost certainly technically illegal in the vast majority of African countries), and a legal post-expense tax on earnings? This comment suggests that you don't.


Do you understand there is no practical difference? At the end of the day, there is a corrupt government using its monopoly on force to take the money you earned.

Bart DePalma said...

harold said...

BD: Our businesses can only dream of a day our government would only skim 20%.

You also don't seem to understand that this post is talking about a personal income tax policy. Corporate income tax isn't the issue.


My friend, who do you think pays corporate income taxes if not the individuals who own the corporation and the individuals who buy the corporation's goods and services?

You cannot estimate the entire income tax burden on an individual until you add in corporate income taxes.

If "lower taxes" are always better, why don't Republicans just propose reducing all taxation to zero right away? That would be the logical way to go.

Taxation is a necessary evil. The key is to adopt a system that has the least negative impact on wealth creation. The progressive income tax is the most direct attack on wealth creation. IMHO, a consumption tax like the FAIR tax would be a far better alternative because it encourages folks to keep their money invested in wealth creating businesses (see Steve Jobs) and falls most heavily upon those who engage in conspicuous consumption (trust fund babies like the Kennedys).

Sacto Joe said...

Why not just go back to the old progressive tax - only this time for GOD'S SAKE tie it to the inflation rate!

That was the only thing wrong with it.

beavis said...

Legalize pot and prostitution.

Close the corporate loopholes, especially those that all big companies to register overseas, they are all located in the same 2 story building apparently, to avoid paying more taxes at home.

That should do it.

WV: urictum As a futurama fan, I have no comment!

beavis said...

The key is to adopt a system that has the least negative impact on wealth creation.

no, what you are proposing is not wealth creation, but wealth hording, which is what trickle down really is.

It makes those who are already rich, where they never need to make another dime richer, and everyone else gets screwed.

The republican dream!

Why don't we just go back to feudalism? That is what corporation want anyway.

I am a Fractal said...

I completely feel we should restore the nearly asymptotic tax rates that were in place before Eisenhower.

If somebody makes $4B in one year, speculating on credit default swap calls, then I think he should pay 95% income tax on that. maybe 98%. instead of controlling the brackets by dollars of income, i think they should be controlled by what percentile of income somebody falls within... so the person making the most money last year should pay the highest %... lets say 96% and those in the top .001% should pay 93% and those in the top .01% should pay 91% and so forth... a nice little formula could be devised that will withstand cost of living increases and inflation.

Nick said...

NATE,

Get this "SarahPAC" nonsense off of here immediately. This large banner has been on the site constantly and is disgusting.

Jen said...

Joe Six Pack might not think it's a horrible idea in the abstract to increase the price of beer, but when he's actually paying extra for his case of Michelob Ultra, he might not be so happy about it.

Nate, Joe Six Pack so does not drink Michelob Ultra. The hell? He drinks silver bullet then goes to sleep and dreams naughty dreams of Sarah Palin.

Pragmatus said...

Bart DePalma…

First of all, let’s not get so loose with you pet accusations. I am not a Democrat, but that fact aside, your reasoning is ridiculous.

Clinton presided over the greatest economic expansion in the nation’s history. Period. Now you may tease out some little factlet to quibble about, but after Clinton raised taxes the country had a boom the like of which it had never seen before.

Once upon a time, the GOP was a party that espoused fiscal restraint and conservative principles. Then after Reagan was elected, that same party has used every opportunity in power to raid the US Treasury for the benefit of their biggest supporters (you know—the guys on whose behalf you were complaining in your first remarks).

Personally I don’t mind paying taxes. It’s part of the price for living here, or did that never occur to you?

Probably not.

beavis said...

Get this "SarahPAC" nonsense off of here immediately. This large banner has been on the site constantly and is disgusting.

While it is disgusting, I applaud Nate. It is indicitive of the incompetence of Palin and all those around her that would advertise on this site, where there are maybe 3-4 Palin supporters.

I always click on it, and make sure to get rid of all cookies after the fact.

Less money that the victimization queen can use to defend against all those "frivolous" investigations. Come to think of it, she is just taking a page out of the Tom Delay play book, but I guess she didn't bother reading to the end.

I do wish he would move it to the bottom of the page, it makes the site look like it is chuck full of ignorant rednecks, when there is only Ass Rider and his multiple personalities, PK, Grog, jack be nimble, and one or two more knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers from the trailer park that darken this site.

Pragmatus said...

Nick…

I don’t like looking at Sarah Palin either, but every time someone opens this page up with her ad(s) displayed it costs her PAC money that is going straight down a rathole. Isn’t that worth putting up with a little discomfort for?

Bondo said...

Stop abusing the term corporatist. Corporatism is the interest group system most notably found in the Scandinavian countries. It is not a fealty to corporate/wealthy interests.

tangoclose said...

2) Clinton was a fiscal conservative compared to Dubya, who spent like a drunken Dem. Dubya was the poster boy for fiscal irresponsibility until Mr. Obama came along.

It's easy for conservatives and libertarians of the right wing sort to abandon Bush now, and pretend that they never supported him.

Anyways, the modern debt economy was created by Reagan. He is as culpable as, if not more than, Bush.

4) The mess we are in now arose from a failure of the Clinton and Bush Administrations to socialize home ownership by extending mortgages to the non-creditworthy.

If by that you mean the discredited right wing meme that assisting poor homeowners no, it didn't.

The housing bubble was caused by both deregulation of existing markets, and lack of regulation into the new sorts of derivatives markets that weren't foreseen by previous legislators.

The 50s were actually only a fat time in comparison to the Great Depression. We suffered frequent and deep recessions until the Kennedy/Johnson marginal tax rate reductions of 1964 gave the economy a boost.

By every measure, from real wage growth to relative standard of living, the last quarter of the century was far worse. The postwar period was economic bliss by comparison, with the possible exception of the late 90's boom, where a rising tide did indeed lift all boats - for a while, at least.

Taxation is a necessary evil.

This statement contradicts the earlier, laughable libertarian claim equating taxation with illegal, coercive acts of theft. There's no such thing as necessary illegal, coercive theft, and there's no such thing as necessary armed robbery. Yet everyone agrees that there's such a thing as necessary taxation, though we may haggle on the details. There's your first clue.

Carver said...

When would these proposed tax changes come into play. Would we see them as early as on tax year 2010?

Til said...

Press reports have these changes taking effect in 2011 (with possible further increases later). Note that this is the same year the Bush tax cuts are scheduled to expire, with the top regular rate reverting to 39.6.

Adam said...

Nate:

Bush's tax cuts don't have to be repealed. They sunset automatically in 2010. All that has to happen for them to expire is for no legislation to be passed.

Now, presumably at some point they will pass legislation to indefinitely extend the tax cuts for those making less than $250k. At least, that's Obama's proposal. If your argument is that Republicans will insist the entirety of the tax cuts stay, and it will be politically difficult to oppose it, that's one thing. I'm not sure I agree.

But that's not really the same thing as what you claimed, which is that it will be difficult to repeal them. That makes it sound like proactive legislation has to be passed or else the tax cuts don't end, which is not the case. And in general, it's far easier to simply let something expire than to have to pass something to make it expire.

tangoclose said...

Clinton presided over the greatest economic expansion in the nation’s history. Period.

Pragmatus, I don't think that's true, though I suppose it does depend on how you define the subjective term "greatest". It's often been said that Clinton presided over the longest peacetime expansion in US history, though, which is true.

Of course, why war should be good for the economy (unless you're the guys being invaded) - implied in the earlier statement - contains economic truths heretical to the right wing, laissez-faire creed.

Peter said...

Uh, whatever you call what happened under Clinton, I'd like some more of that, please.

Plus some health care.

Mike in Maryland said...

Bondo said...
Stop abusing the term corporatist. Corporatism is the interest group system most notably found in the Scandinavian countries. It is not a fealty to corporate/wealthy interests.

Please define the word 'corporatist', and then define the term 'corporatism'.

If I recall my history correctly, the two are different, but closely linked, and were a couple of the bases for the philosophy that emerged in Italy in the early 20th century that eventually became the basis for the (Italian) National Fascist Party. Additional modifications caused it to morph into the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP, aka Nazi party), and other developments were made in the philosophy when it was the prevailing political philosophy of Spain, Portugal and Argentina (among other countries).

None of those political systems are even remotely related to the political systems in the Scandinavian countries for the past 100+ years, and especially in the past 50+ years.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Jeff said...

NEWSFLASH: Adding 2-3 percent to the wealthiest tax brackets WON'T COME CLOSE TO PAYING FOR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. As I understand it, it would raise 300 billion or so, maybe. Health care expansion is going to cost closer to 1-2 trillion in that same 10 year period.

AJ said...

National Sales Tax?

If they put a sales tax in New Hampshire (where there is no sales tax) and blamed it on Obama he would not get NH in 2012. Even if the the GOP ticket was Palin/Voldemort New Hampshire would absolutely become a red state. This isn't really reason enough to not go through with it, just something to think about.

Also, senate rankings??

Mike in Maryland said...

Jeffy again comes on here and makes statements that he doesn't even TRY to back up.

Jeffy said...
NEWSFLASH: Adding 2-3 percent to the wealthiest tax brackets WON'T COME CLOSE TO PAYING FOR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. As I understand it, it would raise 300 billion or so, maybe.

According to Representative Charles Rangel, as reported in the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/health/policy/11health.html?hpw), "It would generate about $550 billion over 10 years to pay about half the cost of the legislation. . . ."

Similar content from the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/11/AR2009071100482.html?hpid=topnews)

Mr. Rangel has a staff of economists (from the Congressional Budget Office) analyzing the data, and that is how he came up with his estimate. He could be several billion off, but you're saying he's off by $250 Billion?

Back it up with an honest, non-Heritage Foundation or non-Cato Institute (or similar ilk) site that LEGITIMATELY analyzes and considers the information, not uses blather to push out propaganda.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Pragmatus said...

tangoclose…

Yep, “greatest” in that context is at a minimum inexact.

I was merely trying to counter the point that DePalma made intimating that Clinton’s raising taxes was followed by a crunch [his words—“slowed economic growth”]. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It’s also healthy to realize that, until recently, the health or weakness of the economy was regulated pretty tightly by the Federal Reserve and its monetary policy. You simply can’t argue (without having gone insane) that the economy is constrained by the Federal Reserve yet is still a complete slave to effects produced by tax rates.

Jen said...

NEWSFLASH: Jeff is talking out of his ass!

I know I should maybe be nicer (or actually contribute to the discussion), but seriously, talk about a dickish way to begin a comment.

DILMA said...

CHURCHES NEED TO PAY TAXES!!!, THE CHURCHES NEED TO PAY TAXES!!!

Matt said...

Bart DePalma: Comparing US tax rates to those of nations with universal health care coverage is silly. You should compare US taxes plus what people pay for health insurance, as well as what the businesses they work for spend on their health insurance, which should also be added to the figure you use for income, of course.

Bradford said...

Here is the real plan to raise $1 trillion over ten years, and it works.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jlMpJGn28kqCcgU-aGcYE_ZHW-ywD99BQUI83

"A new surtax agreed to by Democrats on the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee would start with households making $350,000 a year and begin in 2011, said the committee's chairman, Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y.

It would raise some $540 billion over 10 years, about half the cost of Obama's ambitious plan to reshape the nation's health care system and provide care to the 50 million uninsured."

Bradford said...

"Legislation to be unveiled on July 13 would raise $540 billion over the next decade by setting a 1 percent surtax on couples with more than $350,000 in annual income, said Representative Charles Rangel, chairman of the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee. Higher rates would take effect for those earning $500,000 and $1 million, Rangel said. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a7s..ps0_Uc4

Bradford said...

In other news that will raise tax revenue, recession ending or at least easing:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXQT1NGik0a0

"Retail sales in the U.S. probably increased in June for a second straight month and factory production fell at a slower pace as the recession abated, economists said before reports this week.

Sales gained 0.4 percent after a 0.5 percent increase in May, according to the median estimate in a Bloomberg News survey before the Commerce Department’s report on July 14. The next day, Federal Reserve figures may show industrial output fell 0.6 percent last month after a 1.1 percent drop in May. "

gbthrone said...

Top total combined marginal tax rate in California is 49.95%. Federal Income, State Income and FICA. Kicks in at $106K + change. And yes, quibblers, FICA doesn't increase in total dollar terms above that level.

Jeff said...

Hey Jen, no matter how "politely" I comment on this site I am subject to a torrent of abuse merely for dissenting from the partyline. As for talking out of my ass, how so? Mike in Maryland's alternate source of info is Charlie Rangel, that titan of non-partisan anaylsis. Rangel is undoubtedly inflating the revenues he'll grab and depressing the cost of the health care plan, no? (There is not independent analysis of thie, because Rangel hasn't given out the details.) But even if he's spot on, he's still 50% short, at least. The nanny state tax on sugary drinks ain't going to plug the gap. Ergo, Obama is not going to fulfill his promise to make the health care bill revenue neutral. Ergo, this bill will only add to the STAGGERING DEBT that he is accumulating.

What about those facts, Jen, is me "talking out of my ass". Stop being such a lemming.

Bart DePalma said...

Pragmatus said...

Clinton presided over the greatest economic expansion in the nation’s history. Period.

Mr. Clinton presided over only part of a generation long free market boom that began in 1983 and ended in 2008.

Now you may tease out some little factlet to quibble about, but after Clinton raised taxes the country had a boom the like of which it had never seen before.

False. Mr. Clinton inherited an economy that was already growing at around 4% and slowed it down with his tax increases, which as I posted, were not as large as the GOP complained.

Bart DePalma said...

tangoclose said...

2) Clinton was a fiscal conservative compared to Dubya, who spent like a drunken Dem. Dubya was the poster boy for fiscal irresponsibility until Mr. Obama came along.

It's easy for conservatives and libertarians of the right wing sort to abandon Bush now, and pretend that they never supported him.


1) The libertarian/conservatives abandoned the Bush GOP in 2006 and 2008 where it counts - at the ballot box.

2) I voted for Mr. Bush purely for his foreign policy. Apart from his tax cuts, the rest of his domestic policy was a high spending disaster.

4) The mess we are in now arose from a failure of the Clinton and Bush Administrations to socialize home ownership by extending mortgages to the non-creditworthy.

If by that you mean the discredited right wing meme that assisting poor homeowners no, it didn't...The housing bubble was caused by both deregulation of existing markets, and lack of regulation into the new sorts of derivatives markets that weren't foreseen by previous legislators.


The original CRA was not the problem because it required safe and sound underwriting standards.

The Boston Fed issued a guidance in 1993 instructing mortgage lenders to gut their underwriting standards under express threat of lawsuit.

In the mid 90s, HUD suggested and then enacted regulations requiring Freddie and Fannie to purchase the resulting junk mortgages and make them 50% and then under Bush 55% of their portfolios.

In 2005 and early 2006, defaults spiked in these junk mortgages although the economy was booming and housing prices rising. When the newly foreclosed houses hit the market in the middle of 2006, housing prices started diving.

The problem was with initially extending junk mortgages to the non-creditworthy who defaulted, not the later securitization and resale of these junk mortgages. If the junk mortgages had not failed, then the securities based upon those mortgages would still be considered AAA rated investments.

Dave said...

There were 3 things passed in the 1990s which led to budget disclpline and the budget surpluses we enjoyed about 10 years ago: A strict Paygo, spending caps, and raising taxes on the wealthy.

The first two items were passed in some bipartisan fashion, while the tax increases in 1993-94 were passed without any Republican support.

These three fiscally responsible measures were undone by the Republicans when they controlled things in 2001-2003. They let Paygo expire, they let spending caps expire, and they cut taxes mostly on the wealthy. They passed Medicare Part D in 2003 with no revenues to pay for it, and no spending offsets to pay for it. They passed tax cuts in 2003 with no offsetting tax increases or spending cuts to pay for them. They passed tax cuts in 2001 without the "Triggers" (making the tax cuts contingent on the projected surpluses actually materializing) some moderates such as Senator Olympia Snowe wanted.

This is why I always get a big chuckle whenever I hear Republicans whine about "how are you going to pay for it?" when they were the ones who let those budget constraints expire so they could pass their deficit-raising bills pass without having to address that very question!

harold said...

Bart De Palma -

To put this all in context, the debate here is about a proposal to slightly raise marginal income taxes on the highest earners. Also for full disclosure, I am an entrepreneur and investor. You didn't express any false assumptions about me, which is also appreciated, but I want to make it clear that I am not arguing against "free markets".

1) The federal government was in deficit until Clinton signed off on the Gingrich balanced budget legislation etc...text

I don't agree with your interpretation of the Clinton era - in my opinion the very modest but relevant reduction of excessive military spending was a key factor in the economic boom - but the salient point here is only that marginal tax rates were slightly higher without definitively harming the economy.

1) The top twenty percent of earners lose a far higher percentage of their income to personal and corporate income taxes than do the lowest 50%.text

Again, this is related to distribution of income. US society has been rejiggered over the last thirty years to concentrate wealth in the hands of an increasingly smaller elite. Because they have more and more of the total wealth, they inevitably pay a higher percentage of total taxes.

Yet this is not an argument in favor of relatively shifting the tax burden to lower income people. In fact, it borders on being the opposite. If we were truly "soaking" the rich, wealth would tend to deconcentrate, and the percentage of taxes paid by the highest earners would tend to decrease. The trend you mention is actually evidence that very high earners are being undertaxed.

2) This is an equitable argument. The US have the most progressive and unfair national tax system among the advanced economies. While the wealthy pay a somewhat higher percentage of income in the EU, the middle class and poor pay a far higher percentage of their income to support their welfare states. The American lower middle class pays next to nothing to pay for government services they enjoy while the poor are actually paid through EITC.text

This is partly an incomplete argument, as the middle class in the EU, Canada, and Australia pay far less for health care, education, and a host of other things.

It's also partly a subjective, ethical argument. You argue that progressivism makes a tax system "unfair". I disagree with that. I do agree that an excessively progress tax system could theoretically be inefficient, but that's a different argument.

The wealthy are paying the highest percentage of total federal government taxes in modern history.text

See above.

When a country coerces a small minority to pay for benefits the entire society enjoys, then the unfairly taxed slow their wealth creation, evade taxes or move away. Capital is fungible and can be moved to more hospitable business climates.text

Here we have another subjective, ethical argument. I'm not a libertarian and don't agree with the libertarian conception of ethics. I don't conceptualize legal taxation in the context of a democracy with guaranteed human rights* as "coercion". Tax evasion, on the other hand, is nearly always unethical (in my subjective opinion) and illegal (objectively). Moving to another country is always an option for those who don't like the United States, of course.

harold said...

The 50s were actually only a fat time in comparison to the Great Depression. We suffered frequent and deep recessions until the Kennedy/Johnson marginal tax rate reductions of 1964 gave the economy a boost.text

This was addressed above. I didn't mean to advocate the marginal tax rates of the Eisenhower era at any rate, just to point out, correctly, that they weren't very onerous to the wealthy in terms of standard of living.

Do you understand there is no practical difference? At the end of the day, there is a corrupt government using its monopoly on force to take the money you earned.text

If we are talking about dictatorial governments, this may arguably be true. However, if we are talking about democratically elected governments which recognize citizens' rights, I thorougly disagree. In a democracy with human rights, of course the elected government can and will make decisions with respect to taxation. I do not perceive that as "coercion" or "unfairness".

My friend, who do you think pays corporate income taxes if not the individuals who own the corporation and the individuals who buy the corporation's goods and services?

You cannot estimate the entire income tax burden on an individual until you add in corporate income taxes.
text

I certainly mainly agree with this, although customers of a corporation are affected indirectly by corporate income tax.

Taxation is a necessary evil. The key is to adopt a system that has the least negative impact on wealth creation.text

It has been pointed out by others that this seems to contradict some of your other statements. I would add that the second statement is debatable. It depends on what you mean by "wealth creation". That is certainly not necessarily the only or primary goal under all circumstances. But again, it depends on what you mean by "wealth creation" and how you measure "wealth".

Dwight said...

harold said ...

If "lower taxes" are always better, why don't Republicans just propose reducing all taxation to zero right away? That would be the logical way to go.


In fairness, a few of them do. Of course it is totally appropriate for Ron Paul to be going on about the 16th Amendment while sharing that interview with an 861'er, the later only exceeding the former in sheer nuttiness by, IMO, a slim margin.

harold said...

Bart De Palma and Others -

How the "mortgage crisis" was created...

1) A mortgage is a collateral-backed loan. Traditionally, it has been considered safe for obvious reasons. First of all, a borrower who can no longer make payments can, if he has positive equity, sell the property and repay the loan. If the property was correctly assessed and the borrower was remotely credit-worthy at the time of the loan, this should usually be possible.

Second of all, if this is impossible, a default still allows the lender to at least foreclose.

2) The main risk for the lender is thus not changes in the financial condition of the borrower, but over-appraisal of the value of the collateral property.

3) In the early 2000's, it became more and more common for primary lenders to sell mortgages. This had always been practiced to some degree, but the trend accelerated, especially with the development and expansion of CMO's.

4) Mortgage lenders found themselves making money, not mainly by holding the mortgages they issued, but mainly by selling them. The more and higher mortgages they issued, the more money they made (transiently), regardless of risk to the ultimate holder.

5) This created a strong incentive to ignore BOTH warnings about the creditworthiness of borrowers, AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, the correct appraisal of the sustainable market value of collateral properties.

6) This easy money created a speculative bubble in housing prices, with many buyers paying ludicrous prices, sometimes beyond their ability to make payments, either because they wished to "flip" or because they panicked and assumed prices would continue to rise indefinitely. These buyers were given mortgages, which then tended to fly out of the hands of the primary lender to downstream financial institutions.

7) It is seldom mentioned that this was a zero sum game with a big winner - all of those who net sold during the bubble.

8) The bubble was clearly unsustainable, and soon crashed. Some primary lenders went down despite their tendency not to hold their own bad mortgages, because they had too much inventory of bad mortgages. Large financial institutions which had invested heavily in CMO's were heavily impacted.

9) Programs to increase low income home ownership were not a major contributor. They did happen to be accelerated by some lenders at exactly the wrong time, but this did not cause the crisis. Credit-worthiness is not directly related to income (in fact, although debt-to-income is evaluated, it is illegal to use absolute income as a factor in credit analysis). A credit-worthy poor person (one who pays their bills) who purchases a low-cost home that is properly appraised, and that they can pay for, is not a serious risk. They will probably pay for the house, and if they lose their income, a properly appraised house can usually be sold to pay off the mortgage. Furthermore, in dollar terms, high cost housing intended for upper middle class purchasers was the main problem.

10) What caused the crisis was that homes at all price levels were over appraised, and bad loans were tendered - bad because they were based on exaggerated valuation of the collateral. This cannot be denied. There would not be a crisis if housing prices had not gone down. It is true that housing was impacted by a general economic downturn and that large numbers of low income people were quickly impacted, but both of these issues are foreseeable risks.

The problem was that primary lenders thought that they could make any ridiculous loan to anyone, and sell it to a downstream sucker as soon as the ink dried, and that for several years, they were right.

Dave said...

Speaking as someone who recently went from employer-subsidized health insurance to having to pay for health insurance totally out of my own pocket, I can tell you the effect each of them has had on my taxes.

Before, the employer's share of the premiums (75% for a while, then only 50%) was a tax-free benefit. My share of the premiums was done on a pre-tax basis (as per a tax change circa 1990), so it was all tax-deductible, even if you didn't itemize your tax deductions.

Now, I pay 100% of the premiums and most of it is tax-deductible (that is, the portion greater than 7.5% of my AGI). And of course, the total premiums for my health insurance are more while the amount of coverage I receive is less (i.e. no dental coverage).

I would like to see this preferential treatment of employer-sponsored health insurance premiums end. Have the employer-paid portion of health insurance premiums be taxable, and equalize the tax deductibility of health insurance premiums. That is, let those like me who do not have employer-sponsored health insurance be able to deduct 100% of their premiums (even if we don't itemize), or remove the circa-1990 rule change to require after-tax dollars used to pay for the premiums, then let those people deduct their premiums the way I do now.

Just treat all of us the same.

Stan said...

Isn't it amazing that a majority of people are for universal health care as long as someone else is going to pay for it?

harold's claim, above, that coercion isn't coercion if it's done by a democratically elected government, makes me wonder whether he's qualified to be reading a website the addresses itself primarily to intelligent people. When a majority of economic non-contributors band together and vote themselves a piece of the earnings of the contributors, that's coercion.

By exempting such a large component of our population from taxes altogether, we are moving dangerously toward a two-tier society. The large group of non-taxpayers will have no stake in fiscally responsible government; they will simply vote themselves as much of the earnings of other people as they choose to do. It won't be "us" who is paying for the government benefits; it will always be "them."

We already have addle-headed politicians and commenters who bray that every non-producer has a "RIGHT" to health care provided by someone else. So for how long do you think the economic producers of the country are going to be willing to be the "someone elses" who pay for the benefits of the envious majority?

Shuzuluza said...

Until you make 1,000,000 a year, you don't really know what such a person would consider "pocket change." Who would consider 1.3% of their gross income to be pocket change? No one I know, no matter how much they make.

If it were just this one new tax, OK, I think it could be done without too much pain. But on top of the increase in marginal rates, the increase in the capital gains rate, the possible decrease in allowed deductions, we will have this new tax. This in addition to state income tax and sales tax which are both high and likely to climb higher. Let's not forget property tax as well. I am concerned about the cumulative effect of all the new tax increases, personally, and as a policy matter.

Just because someone makes this amount of money, they do not have an endless supply of money, especially considering the stock market crash. Many of these people are small business owners, whose taxes are double those of an employee. And parents pay up to thousands of dollars a month in childcare expense. And they might have school loans, and car payments.

What is the likely outcome of these higher taxes? Fewer charitable contributions. More pressure to sell stock and other assets such as real estate, less spending. None of this is good for the economy.

Also, concerning the comment on Churches paying taxes,Churches do pay payroll taxes, property taxes, and likely more. I believe they just don't pay income tax. I don't think that my contribution to any non-profit, including a church, should be taxed.

Concerning the comment on why don't Republicans propose 0 rate taxes, just look up Laffer curve on Wikipedia.

Disclosure: I am a lifelong Democrat, and voted for Obama.

Rudy said...

Is it not ironic that tax-the-rich is again served up as good for what ails ya?

It's as if there's no economic consequence to raising taxes on the economy or productivity. That's the same kind of thinking that has led to the stimulus thud. As long as Dems want to insist that higher taxes don't damage the economy, we'll see little real recovery stimulus.

Those pining for the good old days of monstrously high marginal tax rates should go back and look at the numbers for how much revenue they actually produced. And they should reexamine how tax revenue has jumped in the years following tax rate cuts.

No one contends that tax rates should be zero; they should be optimized to generate the most total revenue, which necessarily means recognizing the obvious effects on the economy. They are too high already, especially considering the sum of all of the back-door taxes, including the cost of mandates.

Wind Grieved Ghost said...

This post begs the question: Why would Joe "Six Pack" be buying a case of beer in the first place?

lensch said...

(Sorry if my previous comment got published twice)

Myth - "It will be very expensive to get good health to everyone."

Fact - Actually there's a way we can have better universal health care at no more than we are now paying (see 5. below). Here are the facts (cf. www.pnhp.org):

1. We waste $100 - $200 Billion a year on the high overhead of insurance companies.
2. We waste $200 - $300 Billion a year on doctors filling out forms for insurance companies.
3. I don't know the compliance cost of patients fighting with insurance companies, but it must also be in the 100's of Billions.
4. We pay the highest drug cost in the world to drug companies that spend twice as much on profit and three times as much on "marketing" as they spend on research. This is about another $100 Billion each year.
5. Because of the above, we could give Super Medicare (few limitations, no co-pays, no deductibles and complete drug, dental & mental coverage) to everyone at no more cost per person than we are now paying.

Other countries with single payer systems get better health care as measured by all the basic public health statistics and they do it at less than half the cost per person. If we build on our rotten system, we will get a health care system with rotten foundations.

lensch said...

(Actually it didn'e appear to get published at all. Here it is again)

1. During the period 1946 - 1973 taxes were much higher. Marginal rates averaged 70%; they were 93% under Eisenhower. The economy was better than what we now have. For example, median wages went up 50% during this period, and only 25% since then. Also I recently saw a graph of the national debt as a percentage of the GDP from 1946 to the present. It started high, went straight down until 1973, and then flatten out and in 1980 made a sharp turn and went straight up except for a wiggle during the Clinton administration. CEO's earned 50 times what their workers earned; it is 500 times today. Staring in 1973, the percent of wealth and income taken by the richest 10%, 1%, and 0.1% has gone up at an ever increasing rate

2. We are now told that taxes were too high during the Clinton administration, and it would be terrible to go back to them, but the economy was better then than what we have now. For example, 20,569,000 million private sector jobs were created during Clinton's terms while Bush created 417,000 with 2 trillion in tax cuts.

3. In you look at other countries, you will see that that many have much higher taxes, but also higher growth rate. For example, our total tax rate is 26.1% while Sweden has a total tax rate of 50.2%, the average per capita growth in the GDP 1995 - 2005 was 2.1% for the US and 2.6% for Sweden. Spain had a 50% higher tax rate and 50% higher growth. Japan, on the other hand, had a lower tax rate and its growth was less than half of our growth.

harold said...

Stan -

Isn't it amazing that a majority of people are for universal health care as long as someone else is going to pay for it?text

Actually, the majority of people are for universal health care, knowing full well that their own taxes will pay for it.

harold's claim, above, that coercion isn't coercion if it's done by a democratically elected government, makes me wonder whether he's qualified to be reading a website the addresses itself primarily to intelligent people. text

Translation - I am not able to come up with a logical response to this, so I'll resort to childish insults. You should try to avoid spelling and grammar mistakes when insulting the "intelligence" of others, by the way.

When a majority of economic non-contributors band together and vote themselves a piece of the earnings of the contributors, that's coercion.text

What the hell do you mean by "economic non-contributors"?

It sounds as if you have a problem with democracy.

Anyway, I'll repeat my original statement, the one you can't handle and can't respond to.

It is not "coercion", nor "unethical", for a democratically elected government that recognizes human rights to set tax policy.

By exempting such a large component of our population from taxes altogethertext

You're blabbering nonsense. There is nothing anywhere on this thread about exempting a large component of the population from taxes. Nothing like that has ever occurred in the US or in any other developed country.

How ironic - you're the selfish baby who doesn't want to pay your share of taxes.

, we are moving dangerously toward a two-tier society. The large group of non-taxpayers will have no stake in fiscally responsible government; they will simply vote themselves as much of the earnings of other people as they choose to do. It won't be "us" who is paying for the government benefits; it will always be "them."text

This is the paranoid and cynical fantasy of pathologically selfish individual. It is irrelevant, because nothing remotely like this is happening, or being suggested. If you think it is, you need help. If you have a problem with democracy, move to a dictatorship.

We already have addle-headed politicians and commenters who bray that every non-producer has a "RIGHT" to health care provided by someone else.text

I have two questions for you - PLEASE DON'T BOTHER TO REPLY UNLESS YOU ANSWER THE QUESIONS -

1) Whatever you mean by "non-producer", what do YOU think should happen if such a person comes down with bacterial meningitis and needs immediate treatment. Answer very specifically

2) Regardless of what you think "should" happen, why does every other rich country have universal health care without a problem?

So for how long do you think the economic producers of the country are going to be willing to be the "someone elses" who pay for the benefits of the envious majority?

I answered Bart De Palma respectfully because he used respectful language, made cogent arguments (although I disagreed), and refrained from offensive statements.

I'm answering you somewhat differently because your arguments are not grounded in reality, and your crap about "envious majorities" and "non-producers" is anti-democratic, anti-American, wanna-be-aristocrat bullshit.

Juris said...

Many people have forgotten the rationale for progressive income taxes. It's time that the wealthy paid their fair share of taxes to support the general welfare of the people.

We can debate what share is "fair," of course (and it's not the deceptive "fair tax," which is actually a regressive income tax because it excludes nonwage income), but if we do that then we also have to discuss whether it is fare that we have such poor health provision for nearly 20% of the people and who should help to remedy that.

Jason Ruspini said...

Legislation needed to extend the Bush tax cuts, not repeal them.

Rudy said...

Lensch, your numbers are silly on the face about the cost of paperwork. Using your midpoints, that's $400 billion of overhead and paperwork costs. That works out to nearly $3,000 for the people in non-government insurance plans. That would be far more than half of their total cost of insurance. Ridiculous.

Further, you make no comment about how socialized health care would remedy that. All of a sudden there's no overhead and no paperwork? n a government bureaucracy. Equally ridiculous.

I could dissect the silliness of your other non-sequiters, too -- they're all equally far-fetched. But you're only spouting dogma-driven talking points, so I doubt you try to think things through anyway.

lensch said...

Hi Rudy - I don't want to get into a nit picking argument. This is not the place. So let's just do a back of the envelope calculation. Our administrative costs run about 31% while Canada's are about 16%(http://www.pnhp.org/publications/nejmadmin.pdf). 15% of 2.5 Trillion is 375 Billion. Close enough?

You'll get similar results with other single payer countries.

Todd Dugdale said...

Shuzuluza wrote:
"Churches do pay payroll taxes, property taxes, and likely more."

Churches do not pay property tax generally, unless they lease out space.

"The real property owned by a local church is generally exempt from property taxes only to the extent that such property is used exclusively to carry out the purposes or ministry of the local church."

"Generally, all states provide a tax exemption to buildings that are used as places of religious worship."

Ministers are not subject to tax with-holding of income. Employees, such as book-keepers or maintenance staff, are subject to taxes.

"Churches typically are required to pay many types of taxes, including but not limited to a variety of payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes on non-worship facilities, and even Unrelated Business Income Taxes (UBIT) paid on activities that are similar to those carried on by commercial, taxable entities. The only taxes that churches are generally exempt from paying are federal and state income taxes on their profits, some employer-paid payroll taxes such as Unemployment and the Employment Training Tax (ETT), and property taxes on worship facilities."

Jake formerly of the LP said...

Making the rich pay for part of the health care cost makes perfect sense, as this group will be the ones that stand to get the biggest benefits from it.

That 1.5-3% on all money made AFTER $250,000+ is a drop in the bucket compared to the higher state and local taxes this group will be paying for because of health care benefits that state and lcoal governments offer their own employees. States are also paying requiring higher taxes due to increased Medicaid costs from the uninsured (as the corporate sector "efficiently" passes off their coverage to public sector and the taxpayer).
The increased health care costs that are happening now and are destined to increase in the future (especialy as needs increase with fewer players in the insurance game) means more instability for businesses and the stock market that relies on their earnings. Guess which group has a lot more invested in the stock market and would gain more from the stability of health care reform? The rich, by a long shot (this is also why capital gains reductions and other wealth-favoring policies are extremely regressive).

Also remember marginal tax rates are "last dollar" not all dollars, (a fact that is conveniently left out by most media) so they'll only be paying the increased taxes on part of their income, and it's income that is certainly disposable at that level.

Jen said...

Yo, Jeff:

1. Source your information. When you don't, that is talking out of your ass. Mike in Maryland may have quoted Rangel, but, hey, at least we know where he is getting his info.

2. You want to be taken seriously then post seriously. Otherwise, you are just another screaming douchebag, a la Rush. Incidentally, the left's screaming douches like Randy Rhodes I ignore also.

3. Lemming? What is kool aid finally getting old for the rabid right also? Honestly, the problem with conservatives is they are just not funny. It is painful when they try.

In short, as you still have not been able to source your $200 to $300 billion number, you are still talking out of your ass.

NEWFLASH: Jeff is still an ass talker until he can source his figures.

Pragmatus said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Pragmatus said...

Harold…

I applaud your sensible, point-by-point reasoning. You are far more successful at getting your points across than many here, including myself. I too am an investor (small-time; my vehicle of choice—covered calls). I see no threat in increased taxes, if the increase is to be applied to resolving something as critical as the current health care mess.

Addressing the issue of insurance company overhead, the Congressional Budget Office has looked into the whole “managed care” tangle and concluded that $300 billion is annually wasted by redundancies, unnecessary rigmarole and useless paper-shuffling by insurance companies. All of this busy-work requires people to push it along, who must be housed in offices (one 12-story building in downtown Los Angeles is filled with them—I know because I worked there for a brief time—imagine the outlay in rent) and paid salaries and perks and, yes, health insurance too. If every insurance company bureaucrat died this afternoon, not one hangnail in the country would go untreated because of it.

exessess: An excess of s's...

Aequitas2787 said...

This might be politically acceptable but is economically ludicrous. The reason that we have the wealth disparity in the country now is because of the tax structure. High income tax structures prevent people from investing in expensive education like becoming a surgeon. The reason is because a surgeon comes out of school with well over $250,000 in student loans and can only deduct the interest... On top of that surgeons only have about 15 years of average earning time. Doctors spend 10 years preparing, making little or no income, before making any money and then many can only make that money for a limited time before they lose their edge due to arthritis, injury ect. They have 10-20 years to pay back $250k in debt and save for retirement while living... they work 80 hours a week while others work 40 and they get taxed out the butt. There is no economic incentive to do this and higher taxes just means they have to raise their prices to cover their expenses. This is a primary cause of medical inflation... there simply isn't enough incentive for people to invest in that much schooling. This will only increase the shortages in those high paying jobs and with increasing demand due to government paying the health situation is going to spiral into a much worse state than its in at present.
Congressmen need to get a grasp of game theory and economics.

www.politicalwords.weebly.com

harold said...

Pragmatus -

Thanks. I don't always have time to post here, but this is an interesting forum.

You couldn't be more right about the built-in inefficiencies in the US health insurance industry. I have a couple of potential explanations for this (just my thoughts, not anything I claim to have definitive evidence for).

One is sort of a game theory idea. Each individual health insurer would theoretically be better if they could cherry pick all the healthiest individuals and force their competitors to cover those with the most expenses. But they end up paradoxically spending more in a vain effort to cherry pick and deny than they save by doing so, since no single company can achieve this goal, and they all spend massively trying to do it.

The other is just my observation that it is manifestly NOT true that private industry is always more efficient and less bureaucratic than government, and I don't mean that as a complement to government efficiency.

Dwight said...

Concerning the comment on why don't Republicans propose 0 rate taxes, just look up Laffer curve on Wikipedia.

I believe that the point is that the Laffer Curve is used as an excuse to argue that lower a given tax will result in increased revenue. The problem being is that such an argument is rarely (I don't actually recall a case) accompanied by any data demonstrating where on the curve the status quo is muchless the actual shape of the curve. The later because the curve being a nice neat parabolic, single peak curve isn't even particularly likely given the myriad of variables (including people) involved in real world application.

Stephen said...

The taxes proposed won't raise sufficient revenue and thus the 'bottom' will become lower and lower until it encompasses the entire middle class. That's how it started with the income tax, and how it will continue.

Pragmatus said...

Harold…

Yes, the theory of insurance is based on the estimated risk of a whole. To illustrate—a fire insurer determines the losses from fires in a given location annually. Let’s say this is $1 million for 10,000 homes. He then figures out how much this loss is per home, which is $100. From this base figure he calculates his rate. If his business model is to earn 20% annually, he charges each homeowner $120 to insure his home against fire. That means the insurers income will be $1.2 million in premiums, with an expected outlay of $1 million in claims. This results in a profit of $200,000, in line with what the insurer aimed for. Of course in some years the insurer will pay out more than $1 million in claims, and in some years less, but if he has done his actuarial math correctly he will make the profit he is aiming for.

An additional tool the insurer has is that once the premiums are paid to him he can invest the money to make an additional return. So even if he merely sticks the cash in a bank account making 3%, he’s earning an additional $3,000 per year.

But the classic model no longer operates much in this country. Fire insurers began to realize that if they excluded certain higher-risk homeowners from coverage, the number and amount of claims would go down. Of course if competition in the insurance industry were fair and aboveboard this would drive premiums down also, but that’s not what’s happened, in fact since the dawn of time no insurer who has successfully minimized his payouts ever returned a farthing of such savings to policyholders. Some people in government realized this, and a titanic struggle began that goes on to this day, because if it were left entirely to the insurance companies (i.e. “the market”) large segments of the population would have no fire, no theft, no auto nor any health insurance either. Something had to be done—thus the laws against redlining, and prohibitions against charging women more for insurance than men, and so on.

And now the fight has come to the arena of health insurance.

Civil society is an implicit contract as important and deeply held as any business contract. If you live in the United States you should expect to pay for the privileges entailed in that good fortune, the same as you would expect to pay rent in a boardinghouse. As citizens we are obliged to contribute support for those institutions that insure the public well-being, such as police and fire protection.

I would argue that universal access to health care is just as important. It will happen someday, probably sooner rather than later, but the insurers will fight it like wolverines every step of the way.

sagethoughts said...

All this talk of America finally getting around to making sure everyone has health care reminds me of a conversation I had years ago while living in Paris.

A French friend comparing, America's democratic tradition to France's, commented that when studying the United States he saw the "liberty" part and the "equality" part but noted that we seem to be completely lacking the "fraternity" ideal. And of course it's true. While developed countries around the world consider health care a "human right" we continue to consider it a privilege available only to those well off enough to be able to afford it.

Jen said...

Addressing the issue of insurance company overhead, the Congressional Budget Office has looked into the whole “managed care” tangle and concluded that $300 billion is annually wasted by redundancies, unnecessary rigmarole and useless paper-shuffling by insurance companies.

My oncologist has a department of 5 people whose sole job it is to get authorizations from insurance companies. If you figure the employees make 35K a year or so, that is 175K in waste in one single doctor's office.

Mike in Maryland said...

Shuzuluza said...
Just because someone makes this amount of money, they do not have an endless supply of money, especially considering the stock market crash.

Doing a mix of comparing apples to oranges?

The income tax rate, and thus the amount of income tax paid is based on ...

Wait for it ...

INCOME, also called 'earned income' (unless it's 'unearned income').

Make more one year, pay higher total taxes. Make less another year, pay lower total taxes.

As to the "stock market crash" portion of your argument? Isn't the income made from investments taxed on a different schedule? Something called 'unearned' income?

Aren't the tax rates for 'unearned' income taxed less than the rate for 'earned' income?

If you suffer a loss in 'unearned' income one year (and thus have negative 'unearned' income), you don't pay taxes on that loss. Isn't it also true that you can spread that loss over several other years of 'unearned' income profits, thus not only NOT pay taxes on the year that you had a net loss on 'unearned' income, but also lower the amount of tax that you pay in past or future years when you DID have a profit?

Try doing that on regular 'earned' income, and see how far you will get.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

gbthrone said...

Harold gave an apparently reasonedstattement of how mortgages work. Unfortunately, there are two problems with the scenario he presented. First, the reasoned and collateral-based real estate lending practices he describes haven't been seen in most parts of the US since the late 1930's and 1940's. Second, Harold, old chum, I would challenge you to have found ANY "properly appaised" property in California in recent years.

Opus 132 said...

surgeons only have about 15 years of average earning time. Doctors spend 10 years preparing, making little or no income, before making any money and then many can only make that money for a limited time before they lose their edge due to arthritis, injury ect.

Three of my friends are surgeons.I just checked with two of them about the above.After they stopped laughing,they each commented about the utter stupidity of it.

Mike in Maryland said...

Aequitas2787 said...
surgeons only have about 15 years of average earning time. Doctors spend 10 years preparing,.

Let's see. If a person enters college at age 18 and graduates at 22, then undergoes another 6 years of training, there's your 10 years. That means the person is 28 when they complete their medical training. They'd be 29 if they entered college at 19, 27 if they entered college at 17.

So we add 15 years to that 28, and the doctor MUST plan that they will not earn any more income when they reach 43 (or 44 or 42, depending on their age when entering college)?

You must be in an alternate universe than the majority of us, because it is not unusual to see MANY doctors who are in their late 40s, 50s, 60s or even older practicing medicine.

And, if they DO get arthritis or injured (did you pull those examples out of your nether regions, just like some of the other wingnuts here do?), that might limit or eliminate their ability to do surgery, but it does not mean that they must stop practicing medicine. It must mean that they probably will have to do that practise a bit differently, such as becoming a professor, or do more research, or become a consultant, etc., and less or no surgery.

Oh, and by the way, the majority of jobs in the field of medicine, even when you eliminate all positions such as nurse, receptionist, and other 'non-professional' "Doctor" jobs, are not held by practicing surgeons. Surgeons are a significant subfactor of the total number of 'Doctors', but they are not the majority, let alone the totality of 'Doctors'.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Bart DePalma said...

harold said...

BD: The top twenty percent of earners lose a far higher percentage of their income to personal and corporate income taxes than do the lowest 50%.

Again, this is related to distribution of income.


Not even close. CBO did an analysis of effective income tax rates and found very little relationship between percentage of income lost to taxes and distribution of income:

The top 1% of earners earned 19% of total income, but paid 28% of all taxes under an effective total federal tax rate of 31%.

The top quintile of earners earned 56% of total income, but paid 69% of all taxes under an effective total federal tax rate of 26%.

The second quintile of earners (upper middle class) earned 19% of total income, but paid 16% of all taxes under an effective total federal tax rate of 17%.

The third quintile of earners (middle middle class) earned 13% of total income, but paid 9% of all taxes under an effective total federal tax rate of 14%.

The fourth quintile of earners (lower middle class) earned 8% of total income, but paid 4% of all taxes under an effective total federal tax rate of 10%.

The fifth quintile of earners earned 4% of total income, but paid 1% of all taxes under an effective total federal tax rate of 4%.

I didn't mean to advocate the marginal tax rates of the Eisenhower era at any rate, just to point out, correctly, that they weren't very onerous to the wealthy in terms of standard of living.

A top tax rate of 91% is not onerous?

BD: At the end of the day, there is a corrupt government using its monopoly on force to take the money you earned.

If we are talking about dictatorial governments, this may arguably be true. However, if we are talking about democratically elected governments which recognize citizens' rights, I thorougly disagree.


When a majority of citizens in a democracy discover they can compel a minority of other citizens to pay 85% of all taxes as is the case in this country, precisely what is the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy setting tax policy?

polls_apart said...

@Bart:

From your figures, I see that the top two quintiles (40% of the earners) are making 75% of the income, and paying 85% of the taxes.

Sounds like the desired outcome of a system of progressive taxation. I'm sure you would not be in favor of the top 40% of earners paying only 40% of the taxes. (Or would you?)

If you want to see the lower quintiles paying a greater share of the tax burden, the solution is policies which reverse the trend to concentrate income (and wealth) in fewer and fewer hands.

I certainly don't see Republicans as advocating such policies. Indeed, they are for abolishing the Estate Tax, which would only accelerate the upward concentation of wealth.

Mike in Maryland said...

Jeffy?

You 'paragon of non-partisanship'?

Oh, Jeffy? Over here, Jeffy.

Do you really try to read what is written, both here and in the real world? Or do you just watch O'Lielly and listen to Lush Rimbaugh, then parrot back what they say?

Jeffy said...
Charlie Rangel, that titan of non-partisan anaylsis. Rangel is undoubtedly inflating the revenues he'll grab and depressing the cost of the health care plan, no? (There is not independent analysis of thie, because Rangel hasn't given out the details.)

Jeffy?

9-1/2 hours prior to your writing that tripe, I had posted:
Mr. Rangel has a staff of economists (from the Congressional Budget Office) analyzing the data, and that is how he came up with his estimate. He could be several billion off, but you're saying he's off by $250 Billion?

Do you understand what the function of the Congressional Budget Office is? Do you understand how they come up with their estimates?

Apparently you don't. Here's a hint:

Go to http://www.cbo.gov and start reading.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Ked said...

I'd trade a little bit of "growth" for an economy and a political system that ensures a higher quality of life for all Americans. I know that a lot of people, especially those at the crest of the growth, aren't willing to make that trade, but I am. I don't need to make billions of dollars, and the prospect of making billions, or even millions, isn't an incentive for me. I don't want to be rich. I just want to be able to see a doctor and not have to fight with my insurance company for months or even years after the treatment. I just want to be able to buy a house for my family, a simple house and not one that's sixty miles away from my job because that's the only house that I can afford, because a speculative bubble has driven up prices in all the safe and convenient neighborhoods, and decades of entrenched crime and poverty have turned the rest into warzones. I wish that the government would take my tax dollars and use them to make this country better instead of pouring billions and billions into transforming the Middle East against its will. Is all of that so much to ask? That's why I voted for Obama. I'm not a small business owner. I'm not an investor. I'm not a stockholder. I'm a teacher. I suppose that means I'm a "non-producer," but I do pay taxes, and I do have one vote, just like any of you, and as long as I have that one vote, it's going to go to the candidate who seems sincere about fixing the very real problems that I see in this country, instead of the one who tells me that I should just suck it up and work harder and love America.

pechmerle said...

One point of debate that has run throughout many of these comments turns out to be about an irrelvancy.

There has been intelligent mention of growth rates in such places as the U.S., Sweden, Spain, etc. A clear moral of comparing these experiences is that tax rates and economic growth are simply not correlated. Low taxes and high growth are not associated with each other; neither are high taxes and low growth.

The reality is that a whole bunch of other factors besides tax policy determine growth rate. Thus, for example, marginal tax rates went up a bit in the Clinton administration, while growth was quite substantial. There is little relationship between these facts. The 'Clinton boom' was primarily a productivity boom, through the information economy. Taxes were a side show.

We're never going to sort this all out when we don't talk about what really goes on in our economy. High taxation liberals -- low taxation conservatives -- neither are all that relevant to what the economic results will be.

Shuzuluza said...

@ Mike in Maryland:

You might pay your taxes with apples or oranges, I pay mine with dollars, whether I already have them or make them in the preceding year.

Stan said...

Unfortunately I don't have the time to keep two screens side-by-side so I can answer every one of harold's non-thinking conventionally liberal arguments, but here are the answers to what I remember: Other countries do NOT have universal health care "without a problem." In every such country, there are multiple problems with their universal health care, and those problems have been well and widely publicized; there is no need to repeat them here. One hidden problem that is often not mentioned, however, is that a certain portion of the "free" health care in other countries is subsidized by American citizens, fom whom the drug companies make almost all their profits. The price controls placed by the other countries pretty much force the drug companies to do that.

What I mean by economic "non-contributors" is people who have not contributed enough so that people in a free market are willing to pay them for their "contributions." If you are contributing to the economy in a free-market economy, you get paid for it, pure and simple. It's true that in the socialistic economy that harold probably favors, a person can become rich via political power or by voting himself a substantial portion of the earnings of others - but in a free market economy that can't happen.

harold is simply factually wrong when he claims that there is no danger of our moving toward a two-tier system. Already a huge percentage of Americans pay no income tax (George Will says it's 43%; allowing for the probable exaggeration, it's still substantial.) And politicians of both parties continue to promise that their proposals, if anything, will increase that number. We are indeed in serious danger of creating a parasite class that will, by majority vote, simply be able to vote itself as big a piece of other people's property as it chooses to do. This is a partial answer to his stubborn refusal to recognize the obvious: that coercion by the majority is coercion by every sane and reasonable definition of the word.

The name-calling of "selfishness" can be ignored, since only a blathering fool like harold will call people selfish when they want to keep their own earnings, but not when they want to confiscate the earnings of others!

Mike in Maryland said...

So 'Stan',

If the top rate for income over $1 million goes up 3%, how much more are you going to have to pay?

My bet is nothing, as I'd bet you don't make even 1/10th that amount.

As to your assertion, "Other countries do NOT have universal health care "without a problem." In every such country, there are multiple problems with their universal health care, and those problems have been well and widely publicized; there is no need to repeat them here"?

Start naming and documenting those problems. Otherwise, we can, and will, presume that you are doing exactly what Jeffy does all the time - talking out of your nether regions, and parroting only the talking points of O'Lielly, Lush Rimbaugh, et. al.

After all, if those 'problems' have been well and widely publicized, you should have absolutely no trouble in citing where they have been 'well and widely publicized'.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mitchell said...

Please can people here talk about total tax paid, rather than hust income tax. Taxes like social security are paid by all employed people and are much more regressive!

lensch said...

Stan - Three points

1. The 16 bottom line public health statistics show the US is way behind other countrie. In the 50's we were at the top, but we gave health care to private insurance companies while others went to government run programs, and we fell behind.

2. The government run health care systems in other countries are extremely popular. For example, an 08/2008 poll showed Canadians preffered their system to ours by 91%.

3. Drug companies spend twice as much on profit and three times as much on marketing as they do on R & D. We could reduce drug prices by a third and not touch their R & D. Google Alan Sager.

Bart DePalma said...

polls_apart said...

@Bart: From your figures, I see that the top two quintiles (40% of the earners) are making 75% of the income, and paying 85% of the taxes.

You are lumping in two different groups here. The top quintile carries far more of the tax burden than its percentage of wealth and the second quintile pays somewhat less of the tax burden than its percentage of wealth. Putting them together misleadingly lessens the burden of the first quintile and makes it appear as if the second quintile pays more than its share.

In fact, our tax code gores 20% of the population for the benefit of the other 80%.

dsimon said...

Folks, I've seen Bart on another site. His posts consistently show someone who has already made up his mind, which is impervious to facts or argument. He rarely if ever concedes a point, and rarely if ever even utters a hint of doubt no matter the evidence to the contrary. But I'll make some comments anyway.

As others have pointed out, the wealthy are paying more of the total income tax because, well, they're making a lot more than everyone else these days. The inadequacy of Bart's statistics is shown by the following example.

Suppose we had a society where 90% of people aren't making enough to pay any income tax at all (just about everyone thinks low-income earners should pay no income tax at all) and there is a flat tax of 1% on everyone else. Then one could say that only 10% of people are paying 100% of income taxes--even though that rate could only be 1%. So using the "X% of top earners pay Y% of income taxes" tells us little about whether our tax system is an equitable method of apportioning the costs of running government.

Nor do people who tout these statistics offer any real alternative. OK, say the wealthy are paying "too much," whatever that is, and we should lower their rates. So the solution is...tax the lower income groups more? Which groups have a harder time meeting their tax burdens already? And it's not a response to argue that we shouldn't raise taxes but cut spending, because cutting spending still does not address how the burden of running government, at whatever level, should be fairly apportioned.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that the 91% marginal rate cited by Bart for the Eisenhower years is a canard. Yes, that figure existed, but I believe there were so many loopholes and shelters that few people paid that rate. (Part of the Reagan tax reform was to lower top rates, but make sure those rates actually were paid.)

It's also wrong to focus solely on the income tax. Three-quarters of people pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes. State taxes are sometimes regressive. Sales taxes are usually regressive. Property taxes can also be regressive (low-income communities have to pay their teachers but have a lower property tax base to work with). When you add it all up, the entire system is far flatter than pointing to federal income taxes alone would indicate.

Still, I do feel that tax policies should be broadly based. And polls have shown that most people are willing to pay something more in taxes to pay for universal health care. So it's simply not true (as Rudy asserted) that people are for health care reform only if others pay; most are willing to contribute something themselves.

Bart DePalma said...

dsimon:

I was waiting for someone to offer the payroll tax argument. Social security and Medicare taxes are supposed to be social insurance program payments for specific benefits to be received when one becomes elderly or disabled. These taxes were never meant to go to general revenues or to achieve redistribution of wealth goals.

The Dems declined to use the Medicare insurance payment model for their public option medical health insurance and are instead attempting to loot a minority of the population who cannot effectively punish them at the ballot box to pay for this new program.

You simply cannot get around the fact that the United States has been obtaining its general revenues to an increasing degree by looting electoral minorities - the "rich" through income taxes and various groups of unpopular poorer people like smokers through excise taxes - who cannot turn around and punish the political class at the ballot box.

dsimon said...

Bart, it would be helpful if you addressed the many other points I made in my post.

I really don't see much difference between having a dedicated tax for specific programs or having them all come out of general revenues. As I believe you've stated before, all money is fungible. The real question is how to determine a fair way of apportioning the various burdens.

Even if payroll taxes are rightly deemed dedicated funding sources, you still don't address all the other taxes that make the total revenue system far flatter than just pointing to income taxes would indicate.

You claim that general revenues have been obtained by "looting" electoral minorities. But even under a flat tax, if the top fifth of earners make 56% of total income (using your numbers above), then they'd pay 56% of total income taxes. They pay more because they make more, not because they're an electoral minority. And given that our system is progressive, they in fact pay 69% of income taxes (again your numbers). So the bulk of the reason they pay more is because of their income.

Nor has anyone offered much in the way of an alternative. If the quintile should pay less, then who should pay more? The bottom quitile, most of whom probably don't make enough to get above the taxation threshold to begin with? It's a mathematical necessity that if the poor aren't going to pay any income taxes, then other income groups will pay more than they would under a straight flat tax system.

Finally, you seem to assume that the present system us unfair and that increasing taxes on high earners makes it more unfair. But what is your baseline? There are many of us in that top bracket who do not think the present system is in any way unfair, or that a modest increase in top marginal rates would cause some kind of crisis. Our rates were higher under Clinton and we did just fine. We didn't pick up and leave the country.

I do agree that "sin" taxes are a bad idea as a revenue source. They are regressive. If they succeed in curbing behavior, then the revenues go away. If they don't curb behavior, then you may be taxing people who are essentially addicts. I believe that if people really want something, they should be willing to have some skin in the game. But as I wrote above, the polls I've seen on the subject show that most people are willing to pay something in higher taxes to achieve universal health care.

dsimon said...

Addendum to my prior post:

It seems odd to me to claim that the wealthy are a politically powerless minority and at the mercy of the rest of the voters. First, it's my understanding that voting rates correlate pretty well with income, so the wealthy are not as much of a minority at the ballot box as the raw numbers would indicate. Second, the wealthy are the ones who have access to politicians through campaign donations.

And third, a majority of those in the top income bracket (making $200,000 or more) voted for Obama, even though Obama promised said that their tax rates would go up. I know there can be many reasons for voting for or against a candidate, but this result indicates to me that the tax issue was not a make-or-break issue for many of those whom it would affect the most. If government is legitimate only through the consent of the people, it would seem that most of the high income earners consented in this instance (not that "consent" should necessarily mean the consent of every affected subgroup).

PeteKent said...

The word is out: Rich people supplly all the jobs. Tax them and the jobs go away.

Soak the rich is so passe!

Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!

Screw healthcare -- give the people some work! Some are now whispering about 14% unemployement. Thanks, President Obama!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Dave said...

dsimon, your remark about the overall tax system being fairly flat is quite accurate. I recall first hearing that in a deabate on Bill Buckley's "Firing Line" back in late 1995.

I also did a test on that theory using my own income and overall taxes and have been monitoring it every year since I began working in the 1980s. As my income grew (never exceeding 100k), my income taxes (state and federal) as a percent of income rose while my local property taxes as a percent of that income dropped. As I added some non-wage income (dividends and cap gains) and tax-exempt income (muni bonds) to the mix, my overall taxes as a percent of income remained very stable in a 3% range. Not even switching from renting a place to owning a place changed things much. What did change things more within that tight range was refinancing my mortgage and later paying it off early.

As was stated in that Firing Line debate, if you make the federal income tax system flat or a lot less progressive, you will make the overall tax system regressive, greatly favoring the wealthy over the less wealthy.

One minor point about remark about state taxes - they (i.e. the income taxes) tend to be somewhat progressive, not regressive. It varies a lot from state to state, and it depends on how much a state relies on income taxes versus other taxes such as the somewhat regressive sales taxes and the more regressive "sin" taxes. You can check out www.ctj.org , the Citizens for Tax Justice website, for a thorough state-by-state analysis of state taxes.

Bart DePalma said...

dsimon said...

Bart, it would be helpful if you addressed the many other points I made in my post.

Sorry, I was trying to stay remotely on topic. Here goes:

Your hypo of a mythical country with 90% poverty bears no resemblance to the United States. In the United States, I have no problem with excluding the impoverished from paying for general services because they make up such a small percentage of the citizenry.

My preferred alternatives to the present system of raising federal general revenues is the FAIR consumption tax and in the alternative a flat income tax. I strongly oppose both taxes at once.

Under both systems, a basic level of income would be excluded from taxation, then people pay fixed percentage of what they earn or spend. I think it is eminently fair that the impoverished pay nothing and everyone else pays the same percentage.

In order to avoid punishing wealth creation, I prefer that consumption rather than income be taxed. This will provide an incentive for the wealthy to invest their money in more wealth creation rather than spending it in excess consumption. The problem with a consumption tax is that revenues are more adversely affected during recessions than with an income tax.

Bart DePalma said...

dsimon said...

I really don't see much difference between having a dedicated tax for specific programs or having them all come out of general revenues.

Because we are dealing with apples and oranges.

Social Security and Medicare are intended to be flat taxes with a cap from which you will draw a standard menu of benefits when you become elderly or disabled.

Our current tax system for raising general revenues and the general revenues themselves (outside of common goods like defense) are designed to redistribute wealth.

Combining the two systems is misleading because the payroll taxes then appear to be more progressive than they are and vis versa for income taxes.

Even if payroll taxes are rightly deemed dedicated funding sources, you still don't address all the other taxes that make the total revenue system far flatter than just pointing to income taxes would indicate.

The CBO figures I cited above include all other taxes raised for general revenues. Income taxes just happen to be the largest share. However, I do not deny that the Feds also raise general revenues from regressive excise taxes.

Bart DePalma said...

dsimon said...

It seems odd to me to claim that the wealthy are a politically powerless minority and at the mercy of the rest of the voters. First, it's my understanding that voting rates correlate pretty well with income, so the wealthy are not as much of a minority at the ballot box as the raw numbers would indicate. Second, the wealthy are the ones who have access to politicians through campaign donations.

I basically agree that the wealthy (and middle class) whose income is at risk from taxes tend to vote at higher rates. However, the 20% of top earners could not make up for being outnumbered 4-1 by the rest of the citizenry even if every single one showed up and cast a ballot.

And third, a majority of those in the top income bracket (making $200,000 or more) voted for Obama, even though Obama promised said that their tax rates would go up.

What is even more interesting and ironic, as I noted above, is that leftist Dems who support a progressively more punitive tax code are also the ones most likely to be hurt by the code. Dems predominantly live in high cost of living urban areas and their correspondingly high nominal earnings are harmed the most under our code.

I do not care a whit if Dems want to tax themselves more to support their welfare state. There is a certain justice there. However, I would prefer if they invested it in something useful and created more wealth and jobs.

dsimon said...

Once again, Bart, I don't think your responses address my points.

Your hypo of a mythical country with 90% poverty bears no resemblance to the United States.

But that was never the point of the hypo. The purpose was to demonstrate that the "X% of the top wage earners pay Y% of income taxes" argument is a canard because it doesn't tell us anything about income distribution, the actual taxation rates, or whether those rates fairly apportion the costs of running the country. The hypo showed that even with a top rate of 1%, one could still make the claim that a small fraction of the population pays 100% of income taxes. But that fact wouldn't tell us anything about whether that was a good system. So it's time to consign those numbers to the recycle bin.

I think it is eminently fair that the impoverished pay nothing and everyone else pays the same percentage.

If it's "eminently fair" that the impoverished pay nothing, then why is it fair for the near-impoverished to pay the same on every dollar earned as everyone else? Once one has conceded that the poor should not be taxed at all, then it seems quite reasonable to also say that the near poor perhaps should be taxed but not at the full rate, etc. Any exemption for the poor seems to me the basis for a progressive system. In fact, any exemption IS a two-tier progressive system with a rate of 0% for low earners and another rate for everyone else.

However, the 20% of top earners could not make up for being outnumbered 4-1 by the rest of the citizenry even if every single one showed up and cast a ballot.

I gather you concede that people don't vote their self-interest by income tax bracket. Not only did the wealthy vote predominantly for Obama, many lower-income voters consistently oppose the estate tax even though they won't be affected by it. So saying that the rich are just a minority being soaked against their will by the rest of the population doesn't hold true because people aren't voting in those kinds of blocs.

Combining the two systems is misleading because the payroll taxes then appear to be more progressive than they are and vis versa for income taxes.

Misleading? No, just another way of paying for the programs people say they want. We could choose to pay everything out of general revenues and scrap the wage tax. These are just policy choices, one no more or less honest than another.

leftist Dems who support a progressively more punitive tax code are also the ones most likely to be hurt by the code.

Again, many of us don't consider it "punitive" but equitable. And many of us think that funding basic government functions while maintaining a responsible fiscal policy helps everyone, including ourselves (see the 1990s under the Clinton tax code). And some of us are willing to think of people other than ourselves.

I would prefer if they invested it in something useful and created more wealth and jobs.

We do, like education, police (security), transit...all are important in creating wealth and jobs. The Swedes are doing just fine, you know; they're not unhappy with their lives.

Bart DePalma said...

dsimon said...

BD: I think it is eminently fair that the impoverished pay nothing and everyone else pays the same percentage.

If it's "eminently fair" that the impoverished pay nothing, then why is it fair for the near-impoverished to pay the same on every dollar earned as everyone else?


When you exclude a certain level of income from taxation, every additional dollar above that amount is subject to taxation. If a taxpayer earns $1 more than the exclusion level, then he or she will pay taxes on that additional dollar, not the entire income.

BD: However, the 20% of top earners could not make up for being outnumbered 4-1 by the rest of the citizenry even if every single one showed up and cast a ballot.

I gather you concede that people don't vote their self-interest by income tax bracket.


Some leftists do not. The rest of us do.

Not only did the wealthy vote predominantly for Obama, many lower-income voters consistently oppose the estate tax even though they won't be affected by it.

Some folks actually vote against dumb taxes on principle. However, most lower income folks who oppose the Death Tax believe that they are or will be subject to the tax when it is really just another vehicle to soak the wealthy.

So saying that the rich are just a minority being soaked against their will by the rest of the population doesn't hold true because people aren't voting in those kinds of blocs.

I agree that my contention that folks vote their self interest at the ballot box is not universal or uniform when it comes to taxation. Some wealthy want to pay for a welfare state. More importantly, there are a large number of folks in the second half of earners who think they will be subject to any tax enacted in Washington. However, to the extent that voters realize that they are not subject to a certain tax and can vote themselves money by electing representatives who will impose that tax on others, they are more likely to do so. This is the entire reasoning behind Obama's promise to lower taxes for 95% while soaking the other 5%.

BD: Combining the two systems is misleading because the payroll taxes then appear to be more progressive than they are and vis versa for income taxes.

Misleading? No, just another way of paying for the programs people say they want. We could choose to pay everything out of general revenues and scrap the wage tax. These are just policy choices, one no more or less honest than another.


I will leave this subtopic by simply noting that Congress intended Social Security and Medicare to be a flat tax with a fixed cap in order to generate political support for the program. They were justifiably afraid that voters would reject the programs if they were viewed as redistribution programs. Congress wanted to distinguish Social Security from general revenues.

BD: I would prefer if they invested it in something useful and created more wealth and jobs.

We do, like education, police (security), transit...all are important in creating wealth and jobs. The Swedes are doing just fine, you know; they're not unhappy with their lives.


It is extremely telling that you folks on the left nearly always cite to education, security and transportation when you want to raise taxes or protect spending for unrelated redistributionist welfare state programs like the "public option" government health insurance that is the subject of this thread. If you were honest about limiting your wish list to common goods like education, security and transportation, then we would all be in libertarian agreement.

dsimon said...

When you exclude a certain level of income from taxation, every additional dollar above that amount is subject to taxation. If a taxpayer earns $1 more than the exclusion level, then he or she will pay taxes on that additional dollar, not the entire income.

Yes, that was never unclear. The question is why, if it's unfair to ask those under a certain income level to pay anything at all, it's therefore fair to have everyone else pay the same rate for all income above that level. Again, any exemption is automatically a two-tier, progressive system. Once one has admitted that two tiers are not unfair, it's hard not to see why more tiers would also not be unfair.

"I gather you concede that people don't vote their self-interest by income tax bracket."

Some leftists do not. The rest of us do.

But doesn't that concedes the point? If some "leftists" don't vote by tax bracket, that means that people don't vote by bloc in tax brackets. (And again, a majority of those making above $200,000 voted for Obama, so they're certainly not voting their self-interest by tax bracket.)

I agree that my contention that folks vote their self interest at the ballot box is not universal or uniform when it comes to taxation.

It seems not only that it's not universal, it fails to garner a simple majority among some income groups.

Some folks actually vote against dumb taxes on principle.

Since when is the estate tax a "dumb" tax? I thought conservatives were all about merit which would be proved in the marketplace. If so, shouldn't merit be proved by having everyone start in the same place without initial monetary advantages that skew the competition? I'm not saying that there should be no inheritances, but that one can come up with a good conservative argument for the tax.

However, to the extent that voters realize that they are not subject to a certain tax and can vote themselves money by electing representatives who will impose that tax on others, they are more likely to do so. This is the entire reasoning behind Obama's promise to lower taxes for 95

How do you know that? Maybe part of the reasoning is that the Bush levels were too easy on the wealthy and raising the top rates would restore a measure of fairness. Again, it depends on what your baselines are, which you never define.

I agree that Congress wanted to distinguish Social Security from general revenues. But nothing prevents us from making different policy choices today. We are not bound by decisions of those made last year, much less decades ago. A decision to change the funding mechanism would not be "misleading," it would just be different.

It is extremely telling that you folks on the left nearly always cite to education, security and transportation when you want to raise taxes or protect spending for unrelated redistributionist welfare state programs like the "public option" government health insurance that is the subject of this thread.

Why is health care "unrelated?" We don't consider education something that should be given only to those who can afford it. And security and transportation aren't related to each other or to education. Who decides what is a "common good"? I thought that was what democracies were for: so that we can decide what we want to do collectively and what should be left to the individual.

As for the public option, I'd say that when other countries get as good health results as we do while we spend almost twice as much, that's pretty powerful evidence that our system is not doing a very good job. I'm essentially a free market person, but I'm not going to ignore facts that show that the market doesn't necessarily provide the best results. Markets are means, not ends. I'll take whatever gets us to the most cost-effective ends. If it's the market, great. But if it's something else that seems to work better, why not choose it regardless of what it's called?

Bart DePalma said...

dsimon said...

One can argue that a flat income tax that only begins after a basic income threshold is progressive in that all income is not equally subject to the flat tax rate. On the other hand, you can equally argue that the tax is actually proportional because everyone enjoys the deduction regardless of income. I think the latter argument makes more sense.

BD: Some folks actually vote against dumb taxes on principle.

Since when is the estate tax a "dumb" tax?


The goal of taxation should be to share as broadly as possible the costs of necessary common goods provided by government, not to provide a vehicle to steal from your neighbor because you think him or her undeserving.

The purpose of the Death Tax is pure socialist theft to prevent the wealthy from passing on their already taxed earnings to putatively undeserving children.

It is extremely telling that you folks on the left nearly always cite to education, security and transportation when you want to raise taxes or protect spending for unrelated redistributionist welfare state programs like the "public option" government health insurance that is the subject of this thread.

Why is health care "unrelated?" We don't consider education something that should be given only to those who can afford it.


If the Dems were offering to extend Medicare to everyone financed by a capped flat tax on everyone than you could argue health care was a common good being provided by the government. However, what the Dems are actually proposing is taxing the wealthy to finance a "public option" health insurance program that is supposed to primarily supply health insurance the young who decline to get their own insurance, to those between jobs who decline COBRA and illegal immigrants who should be deported and not receiving government services. In short, robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And security and transportation aren't related to each other or to education.

They are related in that you properly observed that they enhance economic growth.

Who decides what is a "common good"? I thought that was what democracies were for[?]

A common good is not any act of a democratic government nor is it even limited to democracies. Rather, a common good is simply a government service that everyone can enjoy.

dsimon, my point of view is that of a practical libertarian. Unlike some of the near anarchists in that movement, I readily acknowledge that there are some limited number of services that the government can provide better than a free market. I also am practical enough to realize that some services that do not make sense like the intergenerational ponzi scheme known as Social Security are popular and will not be fundamentally changed in our democracy. However, I and I dare say most Americans oppose resdistribution of wealth on the ethical and practical reasons I have spent the past few posts detailing.

shrinkers said...

Once and for all, let's get rid of this idea that income taxes on the moneyed elites - or on businesses, large or small - slows job creation. In point of fact, it does the opposite. Higher income taxes on the wealthy and on businesses actually encourages job creation.

Here's how it works:

1) Income taxes on businesses, or on people who own businesses, are taxes that are assessed after business expenses. If you hire someone, and pay them a salary, that salary is tax deductible, and is paid before any taxes are assessed. In fact, if you are morally opposed to being charged income taxes, one way to avoid paying them is to hire somebody and pay that person instead.

Income taxes are assessed only on after-expense profits not on money that you spend on job creation. One way to avoid paying taxes is to hire someone to work for you.

2) This also means that "income taxes on businesses are only passed on to the customers through higher prices" is also a lie. Income taxes for businesses are not paid at all on the expenses the business incurred to make its products. Those are fully deductible business expenses. Income taxes are paid only on profits that are not re-invested in the business. One way for a business to avoid paying income taxes is to make more of whatever it makes - which increases supply, and thus lowers prices to the customer.

3) To the extent that shifting taxes from the poor and middle class to the moneyed elites will increase the pocket money available to consumers, this also increases the opportunities for new businesses to be created, because it creates demand for their products.

Hear and remember this, guys. Don't let anyone ever again tell you the lie that "Higher taxes on the wealthy and on businesses will stunt job growth." This is absurd propaganda. In point of fact, higher income taxes on the wealthy and on businesses encourages job growth.

Let's finally, once and for all, shut down this propagandistic lie, okay?

shrinkers said...

If some "leftists" don't vote by tax bracket, that means that people don't vote by bloc in tax brackets. (And again, a majority of those making above $200,000 voted for Obama, so they're certainly not voting their self-interest by tax bracket.)

I disagree with you here. I'd say that the "leftists" who make over $200,000 and who voted for Obama certainly did vote in their own self-interest. Even on the single issue of higher taxes.

They decided, quite rationally, that it was in their best interest to contribute more to society and thus to create a better society.

It is the people who view higher taxes as necessarily a "punishment" - those are the ones who vote irrationally, and, thus, in contradiction to their actual self-interest.

lensch said...

I am not going to try to talk any sense into Brian, but one of his statement is so outrageous, I had to butt in.

Brian, 80% of the funds in estates subject to estate tax is investment income on which NO tax has ever been paid and if inherited, the ONLY tax paid on these funds will be the estate tax. Get rid of the estate tax, and these Billions will be tax free.

Dale said...

shrinkers' comment of "Higher income taxes on the wealthy and on businesses actually encourages job creation" and his attempted proof is simply absurd.

As a business owner with 45 employees, tax cuts/credits have encouraged us to hire. For example, we are in an area directly affected by Hurricane Katrina. After the storm, we were given tax credits to hire those living in the affected areas. Guess what, we hired.

When we have been able to get tax credit and/or accelerated depreciation on equipment purchases, we bought equipment. The money spent on those extra purchases circulated through the economy, each step of the way increasing tax revenue.

When tax rates go up, we quit hiring and spending.

Another way to avoid paying taxes is to not make as much. It's about the headache factor. If you make it too difficult to make more money, why try?

It all comes down to the question- Who is best at deciding how I should spend my money, me or Uncle Sam?

shrinkers said...

80% of the funds in estates subject to estate tax is investment income on which NO tax has ever been paid and if inherited, the ONLY tax paid on these funds will be the estate tax. Get rid of the estate tax, and these Billions will be tax free.

The founders of our country were very suspicious about inherited wealth. They didn't like the idea of the creation of a moneyed class of elites who would rule over peasants. They'd had enough of that in Europe, and didn't want it here. They felt that everyone should have the same chance to make it on their own, from scratch. The idea that people should be allowed to inherit wealth is a distinctly un-American view.

I'm a great believer in the original intent of our Founding Fathers. We need a strong estate tax.

shrinkers said...

It all comes down to the question- Who is best at deciding how I should spend my money, me or Uncle Sam?

No, it comes down to whether you feel the people who benefit from living here should contribute to the well-being of the nation they live in.

I assume you never use public roads, or rely on the police department, or the fire department, or the American military. I assume you dispose of your own garbage, and have your own well for water, and your own health inspectors for the meat you buy. You've never used a public park, or watched television on the public airwaves, or visited a library. You weren't educated in public schools, either.

Hire your own police force and fire people and soldiers. After all, you can do things better with your money than the gummint can, right?

This is a silly argument. Uncle Sam does what We the People tell it to do. That's what a democracy is for. When "Uncle Sam" spends money, that is us deciding how to spend our money.

I'm tired of hearing this absurd right-wing nonsense - "Who is best at deciding how I should spend my money, me or Uncle Sam?" If you don't like how we spend our money, vote for someone else. You won't always get your way - heck, I object every time we build a nuclear bomb, or fund secret wiretaps. In a democracy, the majority decides on public priorities. If you don't like it, move to a different country - one that is not a democracy.

Let me repeat - the government IS us. The government spending money IS us spending our money.

shrinkers said...

When we have been able to get tax credit and/or accelerated depreciation on equipment purchases, we bought equipment. The money spent on those extra purchases circulated through the economy, each step of the way increasing tax revenue.

Yes. I was talking about income taxes, which are assessed on income that did not go to business investment. Other portions of the tax code can also be used to stimulate investment. Higher income taxes encourage you to spend the money on creating jobs before the tax is taken out.

shrinkers said...

On the other hand, you can equally argue that the tax is actually proportional because everyone enjoys the deduction regardless of income.

And the law prohibits the rich, as well as the poor, from sleeping under bridges.

dsimon said...

Bart, this will be my last post here because I think you continue not to address my points.

One can argue that a flat income tax that only begins after a basic income threshold is progressive in that all income is not equally subject to the flat tax rate. On the other hand, you can equally argue that the tax is actually proportional because everyone enjoys the deduction regardless of income. I think the latter argument makes more sense.

I didn't ask what argument makes more sense. I asked that if one is willing to concede that the fairness of a two-tier system, why not more tiers? (And there's no explanation as to why the latter argument "makes more sense," only an assertion.)

The purpose of the Death Tax is pure socialist theft to prevent the wealthy from passing on their already taxed earnings to putatively undeserving children.

That's one explanation. And there was my conservative merit-based, market-based explanation that went unaddressed. Providing an alternative explanation does not address the explanation I provided.

If the Dems were offering to extend Medicare to everyone financed by a capped flat tax on everyone than you could argue health care was a common good being provided by the government.

I don't see why the definition of a "public good" should depend on how it's paid for. We don't pay for schools in the method you propose. Nor for national security. Moreover, if one believes in an exemption for low income earners, then such a method would still result in a dreaded "redistribution of wealth."

Rather, a common good is simply a government service that everyone can enjoy.

In that case, I fail to see a substantial difference between providing access to education and access to health care.

the intergenerational ponzi scheme known as Social Security

That's just wrong on the facts. Social Security is not a program designed to fail. It has the potential to become insolvent mainly because people are living longer and so receiving more benefits. Many combinations of raising the retirement age, cutting benefits, and/or raising revenues can keep the system solvent. Indeed, such changes have been made in the past. These are policy decisions. If people fail to make them, it will be because people don't want to fund the system anymore, not because the system is somehow fraudulent.

I and I dare say most Americans oppose resdistribution of wealth on the ethical and practical reasons I have spent the past few posts detailing.

And as I've written before, I think it's about equitably distributing the costs of running government. You seem to think the poor and middle class should pay a greater share than they do now. On this we have a difference of opinion.

Jeff said...

Jen, If my beginning a post with "NEWSFLASH" was rude, what does that make your reference to me as a "douchebag"? You sound like an exceptionally crass woman. Have you been introduced to Mike in Maryland? You'd make quite a mannerly pair.

Mike in M - there has been no CBO estimate on any of the revenue proposals. I'm very dubious of Rangel's word on this, but perhaps he could offset the cost of his bill by paying his own taxes properly. The point is, EVEN IF HE IS RIGHT, this bill won't be close to paid for. The whole discussion is a typical "down the rabbit hole" with 538. It's premised on the suggestion that Rangel has come up with a way to pay for health care. But he hasn't.

Bart DePalma said...

dsimon said...

I asked that if one is willing to concede that the fairness of a two-tier system, why not more tiers?

Because one can ethically justify removing the income necessary to meet basic living expenses on the reasoning that those earning only a basic living cannot afford to pay taxes. Given that everyone enjoys this basic deduction, you are not robbing Peter to pay Paul.

BD: The purpose of the Death Tax is pure socialist theft to prevent the wealthy from passing on their already taxed earnings to putatively undeserving children.

That's one explanation. And there was my conservative merit-based, market-based explanation that went unaddressed.


No conservative supports the Death Tax so that everyone has to make their way through life unassisted. You are offering an unserious leftist snark that is not worth addressing.

BD: ...the intergenerational ponzi scheme known as Social Security...

That's just wrong on the facts. Social Security is not a program designed to fail.


Social Security was based upon an unrealistic assumption that beneficiaries would use it for a short period of time to supplement savings and pensions and that following generations would remain demographically the same.

Things did not quite work out that way.

Folks are living longer, but the retirement age was not moved back, it was moved up.

Reproduction surged after WWII and then the pill and abortion sharply reduced reproduction in the next generation. Thus, there are not enough workers to support the boomers as they retire.

Government has seen this train wreck coming for a generation and still tells the citizenry that everything is OK. If a private company did this, the CEO would get 150 years in prison like Madoff.

dsimon said...

Bart, sorry I have to go back on my promise and make one last reply. (And I note that aside from these few relatively minor issues, there was no reply to my other points.)

one can ethically justify removing the income necessary to meet basic living expenses on the reasoning that those earning only a basic living cannot afford to pay taxes. Given that everyone enjoys this basic deduction, you are not robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Or one can ethically say that everyone below a certain income level gets a full deduction, those making slightly above that level get a partial deduction (after all, life is still tough for them), and all those making above a certain amount get the deductions that came before. Again, there's no argument here for not having a tiered system: everyone in the top rates still get the deductions from below, and it's certainly harder for someone making that first taxable dollar to pay the rate than someone making the 100,000th taxable dollar. So how is treating those dollars differently any more unethical than treating that first untaxed dollar differently?

No conservative supports the Death Tax so that everyone has to make their way through life unassisted. You are offering an unserious leftist snark that is not worth addressing.

Just because no conservative makes the argument doesn't means that it's not still a principled one worth addressing. I don't intend it as snark, and it should not be characterized as such. Again, this looks to me like a refusal to address it on the merits.

Folks are living longer, but the retirement age was not moved back, it was moved up

And it was moved back. The 1983 reform gradually increases the retirement age from 65 to 67, to start in 2000. In any case, your response still doesn't address the point that the system is not a Ponzi scheme, but can be kept solvent with certain adjustment.

there are not enough workers to support the boomers as they retire.

What does that mean, "support hte boomers?" Obviously, some money can still go to the boomers, just not as much as retirees are getting today. But that does not make it a Ponzi scheme, and it is just wrong to characterize it as such. Again, fairly modest policy adjustments would be sufficient to keep the system solvent as the boomers start receiving benefits.

Government has seen this train wreck coming for a generation and still tells the citizenry that everything is OK.

I don't recall government telling the citizenry that "everything is OK." And if "government" hasn't dealt with it, the problem isn't with "them"; it's with the public which refuses to make unpleasant but fiscally responsible choices, whether they be for programs or for tax cuts. If most of the public doesn't want to face fiscal reality, it's no wonder that government often fails to do so as well.

shrinkers said...

there are not enough workers to support the boomers as they retire.

What does that mean, "support the boomers?" Obviously, some money can still go to the boomers, just not as much as retirees are getting today.


Actually, there was a fix put into place in the 1970s, when it was obvious that this problem was coming.

In the 1970s, SocSec taxes were increased beyond what was needed to pay the then-current retirees (until then, SocSec was a pay-as-you-go system). The extra funds were supposed to be kept and invested - the "Social Security Trust Fund" - to be available for when the boomers needed it. The Trust Fund was supposed to begin paying out in about the year 2010 or so (which is why you hear today that in a few years SocSec will begin paying out more than it takes in) and was supposed to be completely depleted in about the year 2040 or so (when the last of the baby boomers should be dying off). That's why you hear the scare line about how Social Security will "go broke" in about 2040 (give or take a couple of years).

In other words, what we are seeing is exactly what is supposed to happen. Afterwards, SocSec was supposed to go back to the original pay-as-you-go idea.

Yes, Reagan messed things up by raiding the Social Security Trust Fund to pay for his war toys, and presidents since then have done the same, and now we have to begin replenishing the Fund from other sources. But that's a separate issue.

And yes, because of rising costs, SocSec could use a little more money - which can be very easily gained, for instance by raising the ceiling on FICA taxes to, say, $250,000. We should laso means-test teh payouts, so that people with a net worth above, say, $10,000,000 don't get Social Security benefits after they retire (no one will convince me they'll need it). There is no need to cut benefits to actual retirees, nor to raise the retirement age.

Or, better, eliminate the ceiling altogether, and charge everyone the same flat percentage regardless of how many millions or billions you make (which would actually lower what that percentage needs to be). Conservative flat-taxers should like this idea.

Bart DePalma said...

shrinkers:

The fatal defect in the Social Security lock box idea is that the Constitution does not authorize the federal government to keep this money off to the side as if it were a bank. This problem was actually a matter of discussion when silly people thought that the Gingrich surpluses would last forever and we would run out of debt to repay.

The government instead spent the excess SS revenues and give the SSA IOUs. The unstated plan was to simply issue debt to replace the IOUs as they became due. However, our current profligacy has endangered this plan. Under the current CBO projections, the government will accumulate so much debt by the time the SSA IOUs come due that it is questionable whether investors will lend us even more to pay off our SS obligations. The US will also be in competition with other aging nations trying to finance their pensions through debt.

Unless the market turns around so I can make my own retirement, I anticipate working into my 70s.

Marian said...

Raising rich people tax to provide healthcare for everybody is supported by only 68% of the respondents because 30% of the missing 32% are retard and 2% are actually negatively affected.

The 30% are mostly poor and they use the Joe The Plumber retarded argument:
"I make 30k a year now, but what if next year I will make 2 million?"
Too much magic thinking for the near-the-poverty-line population of America.

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